WEBVTT - O Death, Part 2: Threads of Fate 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.760 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:15.320 Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:16.520 name is Robert Lamb. 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:19.239 And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:22.759 in our series on Personifications of Death. 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:26.239 We were thinking about calling these episodes faces of Death, 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:30.960 but then we realized that it might be confusing title lies. Ah. 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:33.720 Yeah, was that like when you were in I think 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:35.400 it was when I was in high school. I remember 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:36.600 people watching those things. 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:39.400 Yes, yeah, I remember seeing them in video stores. Never 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:41.800 watched them myself, but it always felt like like the 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.040 ultimate video, the ultimate forbidden video on the shelf. 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:50.800 Were those a mix of real footage of executions and 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.480 then fake footage pretending to be of real executions. 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.960 That's my understanding. Yeah, that it's like and not just 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:01.000 actual death. Especially they got further into the series. I 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.760 think it also got into stuff like, you know, just 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.560 footage from around the world, maybe like footage of big 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:11.000 snakes things like that. But yeah, I never saw them 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:12.319 and I've never sought them out. 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.840 Yeah, like, oh, here's a snake that ada tortoise and 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:20.200 then ruptured or something. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, anyway, we're 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:23.600 back with part two of the series on Personifications of Death. 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:26.120 We should do a brief refresher on what we talked 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.720 about in the last episode. So last time we mostly 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:35.560 talked about common types of death figures. So one distinction 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:40.039 we talked about was between the moment of death figure 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.600 like the grim reaper, the kind we usually think of 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:47.840 as appearing to someone while they're still living, either to 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:51.200 cause death or to signal that death is near. And 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:54.400 we thought about that versus a different type of character 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:57.480 known as the psychopomp. This is from the Greek for 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:01.680 soul guide or soul conductor. This is the figure who 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:05.160 shepherd's the soul of the recently dead into the afterlife. 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.680 The analogy we use for the distinction between these two 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:11.840 was that the reaper is like the bouncer who tells 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:13.560 you you're cut off you have to leave the bar, 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:18.280 and the psychopomp is the cab driver who takes you home. Yeah. 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:22.760 We also explored an influential framework from the psychology of death, 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:25.919 tracing back to a book called the Psychology of Death 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:29.519 from nineteen seventy two by Robert Castenbaum and Ruth Eisenberg. 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:34.399 In this framework, the authors used surveys to study how 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:39.040 US participants were most likely to personify death, and these 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:43.120 authors ended up arguing that most of the personifications fell 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:48.280 into one of four general categories. You had a grim, terrifying, 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:51.760 and threatening figure that they called the macabre. There was 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:55.639 a soothing, welcoming character that they called the gentle comforter. 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:01.560 There was an attractive and exciting but dangerous trickster figure 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.680 they called the gay deceiver. And note that the use 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:07.040 of gay there was not intended as any reference to 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:10.600 sexual orientation. It's just the older usage, meaning like jolly 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:15.720 or carefree. And finally, there was a cold, impersonal entity 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:19.400 they called the automaton. And then after this we got 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.840 into some general findings about how these different personifications were 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:26.359 usually expressed, how that's changed over time, and we ended 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.480 up talking about some more recent experiments which found, among 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:34.240 other things, in one small study conducted on American university students, 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:38.600 subjects were relatively more likely to imagine death as a 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:42.280 comforter type figure when they thought about their own death 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:45.960 as opposed to other people's deaths. And hard to know 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:47.760 exactly what to make of that, but I kind of 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:51.320 interpret this as a suggestion that maybe we're more likely 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:55.520 to personify death as a coping strategy than as like 0:03:55.560 --> 0:04:00.560 a raw expression of unresolved fears the way you might think, 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:02.400 you know, we would get to an image like the 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:07.160 grim macob figure. And then we also talked about a 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:12.120 study linking these different archetypes to particular circumstances of death. 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.320 So it's like some of these are more surprising than 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:18.840 others not very surprising, or the findings like you're more 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.760 likely to think about the macab grim reaper type figure 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:25.680 with the skeletal, you know, sadistic kind of visage if 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.680 you imagine a murder taking place outside the home, whereas 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:32.640 the deceiver figure the trickster was more likely to be 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.919 associated with a heart attack. That's kind of interesting. And 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.760 of course, one line running through the discussion last time 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:42.279 was that most of the psychology research we cited was 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:46.320 conducted on Americans, and the evidence is pretty clear that 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:50.040 the personification of death is highly culturally variable. It's not 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:54.120 like there's one type of death character that's hardwired into 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.360 the brain of the human animal. Though I think it 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.839 is interesting that despite the huge very in how death 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:06.560 is personified within and across cultures, in some way, almost 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:07.720 every culture does it. 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:10.560 Yeah, yeah, and I think that is indeed, one of 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.679 the fascinating things about this is that there's something going 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:17.159 on in every human mind and in every human culture. 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:23.680 You know, Crunching this idea of death and these personifications 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:26.480 of death are one way of dealing with it. And 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.000 you know, so this is where we dig into, like 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:31.479 what does it mean? Why are we building these things? 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:33.840 And what do all the pieces mean? So I want 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:36.640 to follow up on some of the concepts that we 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:40.160 discussed in the last episode. One of the books that 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.480 I dug into for these episodes is Psyche and Death 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:47.240 by Edgar Herzog. I believe this was a nineteen eighty 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:51.960 three publication originally published by the C. J. Young Institute 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:55.560 in Zurich, and I believe the book the text of 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:58.360 the book is based on some like older presentations that 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:01.800 Herzog gave, so naturally, all of this is steeped in 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:05.480 union concepts. But I thought it was all really fascinating 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:08.480 and it really puts an interesting spin on some of 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:12.200 what we discussed last time. Okay, So Herzog goes through 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:16.880 some of the common animal forms of death personified in 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:21.000 different cultures and certainly in ancient times. So he singles 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:24.040 out the wool for dog, the bird, the snake, and 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:27.960 the horse, and I believe this gets this gets especially 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:29.840 it makes me think of episodes we've recorded in the past. 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:34.920 We've talked about the horse skull and the potent symbol 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.799 of the horse skull and how it becomes this totem 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:42.280 that goes beyond like the remnant of an important domesticated animal. 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:45.160 I don't really recall what we concluded, but didn't we 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.640 talk about the idea that for some reason, the horse 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.359 skull seems grimmer than other skulls. 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:55.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does that. Yeah. But anyway, he 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:59.400 refers to all of these different personifications of death in 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:02.880 this case and beast form as death demons. That's this 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.800 sort of catch all phrase, so I'll use that as well, 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:07.760 and certainly when I read some quotes from him here. 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.640 But then he goes on to discuss the death demon 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:14.080 and the human form, and he argues, first of all 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.040 that the various animal forms of the death demon were 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:21.160 quote the externalization of inner images by means of which 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:25.600 the human psyche expresses its reaction to the experience of death. Okay, 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:28.240 that's basically that makes sense. That falls in mind what 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:31.680 we've been talking about, and he also stresses that they 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:35.360 were still at the same time the quote inner crystallization 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:40.160 of numinous experience into an image, and the human form, 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:44.440 which is only explicitly developed later, is secretly contained within them. 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:47.200 So this is understandable as well. While death might be 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:49.920 conceptualized as some sort of a great beast, say a 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:54.120 giant bird, we're still going to anthropomorphize that great beast. 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:58.240 But then Herzog argues that in time the shift occurs 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.640 where the death demon becomes implicitly human in form or 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:05.200 mostly human in form. And I'm going to read this 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:08.080 quote here that I thought was really telling, and there 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:09.520 might have been an I don't know if there was 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:11.400 an error in translation, but I'm going to throw an 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:13.840 iz in there that isn't there in the actual text 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:18.239 that to my understanding clarifies things. But if I messed 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:23.720 it up, my apologies to mister herzag quote. It is 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:28.440 not until the death demon becomes explicitly anthropomorphized that the 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:33.440 full richness of the incomprehensible event that death is begins 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:37.360 to emerge, even though it can never be wholly contained 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.600 in an image. When it is given human form, the 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:44.319 nature of the death demon is enriched and deepened and 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:48.400 related to the totality of the universe, the individual, and 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:52.240 life in a succession of new ways. So he points 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.240 out that by making death more human in form again 0:08:55.360 --> 0:09:02.800 anthropomorphized death, death made to a being, we also firmly 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.400 allow death then to do things that humans do, such 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:09.480 as use tools and weapons, which you know, coming back 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.400 to the arguably and many you know, certainly in the 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:15.920 Western culture, the most sort of famous version is the 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:19.079 grim Reaper. We've referred to this already multiple times. This 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:20.800 is the version of death that will show up in 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:25.079 your like Far Side cartoons and so forth, or on 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:27.880 just you know, probably SpongeBob as well. You know, anywhere 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:31.960 you have death step in, we take it for granted, 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:36.640 oh he has a scythe there. But the human technology 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.240 used by a death figure a death demon allows us 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.840 to employ technological metaphors laid in with additional meanings. 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.199 Okay, so one that comes to mind for me immediately 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:53.360 would be the technological metaphor of harvesting with a scythe there. 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:55.559 That is something that we use a tool to do. 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.560 But you can think of it now that death is out, 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:00.800 collecting is out harve people. 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:03.840 Yeah, yeah, like the scythe really does a lot to 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:07.440 inform how we're supposed to feel about the reaper, right, Yeah, 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:10.400 there's there's certainly implied violence of cutting away. It is 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:13.360 the way it's sometimes brandished. It feels like a weapon, 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:14.720 like don't chase me with that thing. 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:17.600 Also makes you feel not very special, like you are 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.000 one of many. Yeah, I am a grain among the 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:21.000 grains of the field. 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:25.360 Yeah, yeah, strong sense of cyclical harvest. Yeah, this is 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.160 something that happens all the time to everybody. But there 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.200 is also an implied violence of severing. So yeah, the 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:33.520 inclusion of something like that can can do a lot 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:34.000 of lifting. 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:37.280 I'm trying to think though, that what's the next tool 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:39.640 where there's a good technological death metaphor? 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:43.000 Oh well, we'll get to we'll get to one in 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:43.360 a bit. 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:44.160 But okay. 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:48.040 He also folds in the hybrid body plans of monsters 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:52.320 into this, so like claws, but he calls out knives, tridents, 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:58.079 the hook, the net by which the Nordic oceanic deity 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:02.280 run is said to collect the drown dead, and he 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.280 also calls up the dogs of various wild hunt traditions. 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:09.640 So ultimately wrapping up human domestication and not exactly a tool, 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:13.600 but a thing that humans do. And by making death 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:16.480 human or humanoid, death can do those things too and 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:17.920 take on those additional meanings. 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:20.880 This is a really good point, and I don't know 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.760 if I've ever thought about before the idea of how 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:27.720 the tool you imagine in death's hand affects how you 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.120 think about death. I mean, yeah, so it's clear with 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:34.439 something like the scythe you could go in interesting places 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:36.360 with it. So if you give death a frying pan, 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:38.679 how do you think about that? I guess there it 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:40.480 makes it sound like a kind of torture, doesn't it. 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:42.440 What if it's a mandolin slicer. 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:46.320 Yeah, I don't know. I think if you gave death 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:49.560 a frying pan, it makes it feel like death was 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.400 doing other things. Death was making breakfast, and maybe this 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:56.880 isn't the primary thing that death does. On the other hand, 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:59.520 if you give death a long sword, and I think 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:01.599 sometimes you see depictions of death with some you know, 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.040 a grim reaper type figure with a long sword. Well, 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.400 now he's holding something that is a weapon. It is 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.360 it has no other purpose but to cut down and 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.240 murder people, or at least in nothing else to intimidate 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:17.320 them with the threat of murder. So it changes the 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:19.280 vibe to a very large degree. 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:23.280 Yeah, death as lethal enemy, not like I am not 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.120 metaphorically grain in a field here, I'm not a sheaf 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:29.880 of wheed. I am just a person being killed in battle. Yeah. 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:32.800 And so Herzog points out that like hooks and ropes 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:36.880 associated with different death figures, this conveys a sense of 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:43.000 snatching away sudden demise and maybe even a bit of 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:46.200 malice as well. A net. On the other hand, he 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:50.160 says that this is more passive collective. You know, you 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.800 can't feel too bad about this character that's out there 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:58.960 collecting the drowned dead with the net. And so in 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:01.520 all this we observe that the tools of death can 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:05.199 adjust their symbolic impression to convey any of the four 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:08.080 basic death types that we've talked about previously, the macop, 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:12.400 the gentle comforter, the gay deceiver, and the automaton. He 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.120 also points out that the humanoid form also enables the 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:20.319 adjustment of the image via clothing choices, and this is 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:21.960 something that we kind of take for granted with the 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:25.920 robes of death, right, the robes of the reaper you 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:30.760 know it just to be shrouded is to be to 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:33.480 take on that sense of darkness and obscurity, that same 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:37.080 darkness and obscurity that death will drag the human soul 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:42.120 into in many of these traditions. Other traditions involve magical 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:47.600 caps of invisibility, which would seem partial to the way 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:51.240 that death moves through our world, you know, unseen, certainly 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:55.120 striking out of nowhere and so forth, on top of 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:57.680 it being you know, if we're to take it literally, 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:01.240 some sort of supernatural entity moving through our world. Yeah, 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.120 and I want to come back to something else that 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:06.160 we mentioned in the last episode, the idea that death 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:10.559 should end up looking like the dead, as well as 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:14.240 one of those attributed death anxieties that came up in polling, 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:16.760 the fear of seeing a human corpse. 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.880 Yeah, there was an interesting irony that came up when 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.520 we were talking about the four archetypes of death from 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:27.000 Castenbaum and the Eisenberg, which specifically came up with reference 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:30.480 to the macabre, because this is the scariest of the 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:35.280 four death personifications, and yet it's also the only one 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:37.840 that looks like it is a victim of the thing 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.440 it symbolizes. It is often represented as dead and decayed, 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:42.840 but none of the other three are. 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:45.840 Yeah, and again this is something that we're so used 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.600 to seeing in our representations of death, particularly with the 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:52.320 Grim Reaper, that we don't really stop to think how 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.400 interesting it is. Why does this bringer of death look 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.040 like death itself? It may seem like, well, yeah, well 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:02.720 how else would it be? Maybe you stop and look 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.360 at it, you know, you have to ask why, and 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:09.200 herz Our expresses that many characteristics found in the humanoid 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.800 death demon quote arise out of the experience of seeing 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:16.160 human corpses. To see a human corpse is to, you know, 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:20.360 to have to contemplate all of these realities of death. 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:25.080 It of course can be keep scary, anxiety or raising, 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:28.880 and certainly something one would fear seeing, particularly if you 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:32.600 get into specifics like I am afraid of seeing the 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:35.760 corpse of this particular person or this particular person that 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:38.600 I know, and you know, coming back to something we 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.080 mentioned as well, In our contemporary world, we make it 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:45.080 more and more possible to avoid seeing human corpses, at 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:47.360 least for much of our lives. But of course someone 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:50.120 has to see them, and historically most people would have 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:53.280 had a stronger connection to the physical reality of death. 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:06.440 Herzog also discusses the idea that masks of death play 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:08.640 into all of this as well, because when one dies, 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.680 the face becomes like a mask, and of course the 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:13.800 idea of a mask plays right into the trope of 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:17.520 the gay deceiver that we discussed, especially in the form 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:20.520 of quote one whose back is wholly different from his 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:23.640 appearance in front, which of course I want him like, 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:25.440 that's what a mask does, right, It's like, I hold 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:27.800 the mask in front of my face, and if you're 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:31.040 looking at me from the front, I have a different face. 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:36.720 And he points to a number of feminine death forms 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:41.040 and also some male death forms where it's not mere 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:45.440 monstrous hybridity like with sirens or harpies. But there's this 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:48.520 idea that the death demon is all beauty in the 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:51.040 front and decay in the back, so not a mix again, 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:53.200 not like a harpy. It's like, oh well, it looks 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:55.640 pretty in some ways, but it also has big claws 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:59.760 and vulture rings, but no one where if you're standing 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:02.520 direct in front of them looks like a fair form. 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.800 Standing directly behind them, you would see that they are gross. 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:08.679 The woman in the bathtub in the Shining. 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:12.760 Oh yeah, it's rotten. Yeah, Oh, she's rotten in the back. 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:16.960 Yeah, she's a beautiful woman when yeah, and Jack Nicholson 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:18.720 starts to kiss her and then he sees in the 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.280 mirror that she is a rotten corpse from behind. 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:24.320 Been a while since I've seen that scene, and historically 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:26.400 I didn't get to see that scene because I would 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:29.639 watch television. It's kind of a hidden easter egg for. 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:34.160 The Shining, censored for television. Amazing, amazing choices. 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.240 But that that sounds like it may have been well 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.680 inspired by by some of these examples that I'm about 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:45.399 to roll out. First up, there's the Nordic Haldron, and 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.480 this is an entity where the front is said to 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.320 look like a beautiful fair form, like a beautiful woman, 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:54.840 but then the back of the individual is hollow, like 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:55.960 a kneading trough. 0:17:58.240 --> 0:17:59.280 So that's interesting. 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:04.600 Yeah yeah, the back yeah yeah, just like hollow, like 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:09.800 a big cavity of decay. They are also apparently particular 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:15.720 Austrian devils that Herzog brings up, namely a Styrian and 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.480 Corinthian in which you'll have a captivating lover in the front, 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:21.760 but then the back is all hallowed out, like this, 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:27.000 hollowed out with decay. There's a fraul Hola and the 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:29.879 Woman of the Woods, again beautiful in the front, but 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:32.280 in this case like a hollowed out log in the back. 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:34.520 And I think this one may be connected more to 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:36.919 like earthy nature motifs. 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.320 Interesting recurring theme the hollow. 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:42.520 Yeah, and a lot of his examples are you know, 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:47.600 certainly Germanic and European and origin, but we also have 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.439 He also brings up the example of the wahout of 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:55.720 the luis no An indigenous people of southern California, and 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.359 this is a pretty woman with long hair in the front, 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:00.480 but in the back there's no flesh on her. 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:03.240 You know, this may be entirely off base, but I'm 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:06.720 thinking of this recurring theme of the form that appears 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:08.840 beautiful in the front but in the back is not 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:12.920 just ugly or you know, dead or something, but is 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:18.480 actually hollow. It almost makes me think of fruit of produce. Yeah, 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.800 you know, I don't know if that's actually what's leading 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:24.240 to this, but I'm sure we've all had the experience 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:26.399 of you know, you're at the market and you're picking 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.679 up a nice looking piece of fruit, or vegetable or 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:31.600 something that looks great on one side you pick it 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.000 up and the other side is not just not beautiful, 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:37.119 but is hollow, is eaten away. 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:41.320 Literal bad apples, these death demons. Yeah. One of the 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:44.399 more interesting examples he brings up, in part because I 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:48.800 found like actual visual visuals of these more forthcoming on 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:54.560 the internet is fraul Veldt or Lady World. She pops 0:19:54.680 --> 0:20:00.480 up in medieval European iconography and in poetry, and again 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:02.920 we have a case where it's generally a beautiful woman 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:05.960 in the front, but her back is hollow and or 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:11.199 infested with snakes and toads. I had to look her 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:15.159 up in Carol Roses Encyclopedias of Mythical Creatures, and she 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:19.159 describes this figure as a female supernatural lover or a 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:23.639 fairy mistress, one that particularly preys on monks, members of 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:27.000 the clergy, and so forth, with vibes of a succubus 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:29.399 demon or an incarnation of the devil. 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:32.640 It's the idea that monks are especially easy to get 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:34.080 or especially hard to get. 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:37.480 Or right, maybe they're the only ones writing about them. 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:42.480 I go, oh, yeah, but yeah, this is you'll actually 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:47.199 find sculptures of this figure, and indeed it'll be like 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:48.960 a you know, some it almost looks like they're wearing 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:52.000 a hospital gown because in the front they are clothed 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:54.800 and fair, and in the back the gown is open 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:59.920 and we just see decay. And also you'll see examples 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.280 of it looks like there are toads and or snakes 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:08.040 like swimming in the pestilence of their back and their 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:09.359 legs and their buttocks. 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:12.679 One of these statues you've included an image of for me. 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:14.920 Here it's shrunken down, so I can't quite tell, but 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:16.960 it kind of looks like it has crabs all over it. 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:21.679 Yeah, we find a similar image but flipped to the 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:25.840 mail in the sculpture Foolish versions Seduced by the Tempter 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:30.120 featured on the Strausburg Cathedral. Here the male tempter has 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:31.919 the back of decay, and I believe he's holding out 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:35.200 an apple, and he has animals swimming in his back 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:39.440 as well. And in this I'm also briefly reminded of 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.640 the accounts we have a vampires in which once you've 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:45.040 slain the creature, they just turn into a torrent of 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:48.959 snakes and bugs. Some spontaneous generation wrapped up in all 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:49.720 of this, to be sure. 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:54.639 Yeah, notes of Halloween three, Yeah, absolutely. 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:58.240 And speaking of films, this of course made me think 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:01.240 of some possible exam They are possible examples of this 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:06.920 from horror cinema especially. There's a shot in particular from 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:10.520 John Carpenter's in the Mouth of Badness nineteen ninety four. 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:14.280 There's a scene where the character Linda Styles embraces the 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:17.720 enigmatic Sutter Caine, and so in the front he just 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:22.720 looks like Sutterkane. This you know, commanding and you know, 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:27.480 ruggedly handsome. Horror writer Jurgen prac now it is yes, 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:31.600 okay and a great role. And as she embraces him 0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:34.119 and kisses him with her own eyes bleeding from the 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:38.280 revelations he's given her that the shot moves back and 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:41.320 we see that the back of him is just all monstrous, 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:44.800 like weird kind of decay, and there's a face back 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:45.880 there on the back of his head. 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:48.320 It's really more like Lovecraft goo. 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:53.080 Yeah, Lovecraft goo, I think is a good description. I 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:54.440 was looking around. It looks like there are some other 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:56.960 examples of this as well. Some of them go they'll 0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:00.439 get more into the direct trope of face back of 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:04.119 the head, and I'm not there's one in particular that 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:06.080 ended up spoiling a movie for me, so I'm not 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:09.359 gonna mention that one. But if folks have seen it, 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:11.000 you probably know what I'm talking about. And I'm not 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:13.160 talking about Harry Potter and the Sorcer of Stone. There's 0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:16.560 a different one. But frau Veldt here is a terrific 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:20.720 example of the gay deceiver in that she is supposed 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:24.920 to represent the mortal world of sin and therefore death. 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:28.280 Something Herzog drives home really well is that within the 0:23:28.359 --> 0:23:33.160 Christian tradition, death largely becomes not a natural aspect of creation, 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:37.920 but an unfortunate byproduct of human sin, and a byproduct 0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:41.720 that may eventually be reversed or erased. So that a 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:44.879 very consequential way to spin a natural occurrence. 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:48.240 Right, So, because Adam and Eve are kicked out of 0:23:48.240 --> 0:23:50.760 the Garden of Eden, death and sin come into the world. 0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:56.360 Yeah, So frau Veldt reveals the wages of earthly sin. 0:23:57.119 --> 0:24:00.520 Herzog cites a poem by twelfth and thirteenth century German 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:04.639 poet and barred Walter von der Vogelweida and in the 0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:08.880 poem frau Veldt speaks. She says, I am the world 0:24:09.160 --> 0:24:12.399 looked now upon my back and see the wage I bring. 0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:17.120 He looked and saw her back hollow. It was San's flesh, 0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:21.240 all full of toads, crawling with worms and stinking like 0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:24.120 a putrefying dog. Uugh, that's pretty cool. 0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:30.119 But why a dog? I mean putrefying anything. It's specific. 0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:33.040 You want to be specific, you know. And presumably he's 0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:34.760 singing this as well, by the way, like this is 0:24:34.920 --> 0:24:37.199 this was probably a song because he was again like 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:38.080 a traveling bard. 0:24:38.280 --> 0:24:41.120 Now. Her Zog ultimately argues though, that images like this 0:24:41.160 --> 0:24:44.439 one they end up betraying a deeper understanding, or at 0:24:44.560 --> 0:24:48.159 least a deeper contemplation of the polarity of death in life, 0:24:48.880 --> 0:24:51.520 and one that continues to sort of resonate hidden behind 0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:56.240 the Christian reworking of things, something quote so deeply disturbing 0:24:56.280 --> 0:25:01.199 that it can't be grasped and permanently held. And so 0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:05.400 you know, you have this image of a fraul Velt 0:25:05.440 --> 0:25:08.159 and you know, again beauty on the front and on 0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:12.760 the back, all decay and death, life on one end, 0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:16.119 death on the other. And it's presented as if like, oh, 0:25:16.160 --> 0:25:18.879 you know, sin looks like this from one angle, but 0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:22.200 it's really this but beyond this lesson of this morality 0:25:22.280 --> 0:25:24.720 lesson that's that they're trying to teach with this image, 0:25:24.760 --> 0:25:29.080 there's this kind of like deeper understanding that death isn't 0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:31.760 only darkness and decline, but it's also light and the scent, 0:25:32.200 --> 0:25:35.720 because one side of this thing is not and cannot 0:25:35.800 --> 0:25:38.600 merely be the true essence of the thing, like both 0:25:38.640 --> 0:25:41.760 are the true face. And so yeah, even as you're 0:25:41.880 --> 0:25:45.280 if you're taking this image in as a teaching implement, 0:25:45.920 --> 0:25:49.879 a religious teaching implement, like it ultimately betrays even deeper 0:25:49.880 --> 0:25:51.679 contemplations of life and death. 0:25:51.880 --> 0:25:56.320 And possibly also brings a comforting side. Again back to 0:25:56.359 --> 0:25:59.200 the idea of the personification as a coping strategy. 0:25:59.560 --> 0:26:02.160 Yeah, even though it's rolled out just to say, hey, 0:26:02.200 --> 0:26:06.399 don't sin, or death will happen and so forth, and 0:26:06.600 --> 0:26:09.720 I think, yeah, that's one for me. The big takeaway 0:26:09.760 --> 0:26:15.000 from Herzog's discussion of Yungi interpretations of this kind of 0:26:15.000 --> 0:26:18.240 imagery is that all of these depictions have been generated 0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:21.000 as a way of attempting to cope with and understand death, 0:26:21.760 --> 0:26:24.400 which is in so many ways something that is just 0:26:24.440 --> 0:26:28.360 too huge and varied to fully hold in our minds. 0:26:28.640 --> 0:26:32.240 It's overwhelming, it's multifaceted, but that is one of the 0:26:32.280 --> 0:26:36.000 powers of symbology, of poetry, of song, and of all 0:26:36.080 --> 0:26:39.239 human art. We can capture like some sense of that 0:26:39.400 --> 0:26:45.160 overpowering ambiguity, polarity and ineffability of the thing, and then 0:26:45.280 --> 0:26:46.919 as you hold it up to the light, you can 0:26:47.000 --> 0:26:59.520 kind of catch it in different ways. Now, in the 0:26:59.560 --> 0:27:01.760 rest of this episode, we're going to expand on some 0:27:01.800 --> 0:27:05.080 of those classifications we discussed in the previous episode some more, 0:27:05.480 --> 0:27:07.919 while also getting into the role fate plays and some 0:27:08.000 --> 0:27:13.080 of humanity's anthropomorphic personifications of death. Because of course, broadly 0:27:13.280 --> 0:27:16.040 death is fate. It's the one true certainty in human 0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:18.800 life and something we spend much of our lives coming 0:27:18.800 --> 0:27:21.479 to terms with in different ways. So in that sense, 0:27:21.640 --> 0:27:24.920 the idea of death personified or not, is innately tied 0:27:25.080 --> 0:27:26.120 to the concept of fate. 0:27:26.640 --> 0:27:31.720 Huge number of stories illustrating the concept of fate center 0:27:31.880 --> 0:27:35.520 around predictions of death. This will come up in the 0:27:35.560 --> 0:27:38.160 Greek context, which I'm going to talk about in a minute. 0:27:38.840 --> 0:27:43.080 It's it is certainly not the only aspect of fate. 0:27:43.160 --> 0:27:46.320 Fate is everything about our lives. But for some reason, 0:27:46.440 --> 0:27:50.760 the most central event in stories about fate is death. 0:27:51.160 --> 0:27:53.600 Yeah, it's the one thing that's guaranteed to happen, yea, 0:27:54.000 --> 0:27:56.280 even though it doesn't always happen. It's kind of like 0:27:56.320 --> 0:27:59.280 in our stories often we don't always get to see 0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:02.879 our lead character eventually die. It's kind of like Barbie 0:28:02.920 --> 0:28:04.840 doesn't have to have a bathroom in her dream house, 0:28:05.400 --> 0:28:08.360 that sort of thing. We should also note that while 0:28:08.400 --> 0:28:11.800 the terms fate and destiny are often used interchangeably, and 0:28:11.840 --> 0:28:14.480 we may use them interchangeably here in this episode a 0:28:14.480 --> 0:28:19.560 little bit, they are often considered different concepts historically. So 0:28:19.640 --> 0:28:23.679 fate is passive, it's the course in life that was 0:28:23.720 --> 0:28:28.440 predetermined for you. Destiny, however, is active and must be achieved. 0:28:28.440 --> 0:28:31.720 So one becomes resigned to one's fate, while one sets 0:28:31.760 --> 0:28:35.639 out after their destiny. So death in and of itself 0:28:35.680 --> 0:28:37.879 not much of a destiny, but a key aspect of 0:28:37.920 --> 0:28:40.800 any given fate. Now, we could do a whole series 0:28:40.800 --> 0:28:43.200 of course on fate and destiny, as well as huge 0:28:43.280 --> 0:28:47.760 tactics as well for human contemplation, but we are talking 0:28:47.840 --> 0:28:52.000 about death, the anthropomorphic personification of death, and this ties 0:28:52.000 --> 0:28:54.800 in nicely with some very old concepts, concepts that are 0:28:54.840 --> 0:28:58.400 in fact again based on a metaphor of human technology, 0:28:58.880 --> 0:29:02.160 thread spun from a spindle, and this metaphor can be 0:29:02.160 --> 0:29:06.200 found in pretty much all Indo European cultures. The technology 0:29:06.200 --> 0:29:10.080 involved here dates back to Neolithic times at least. The 0:29:10.120 --> 0:29:14.280 spindle enables one to transform a seemingly chaotic mass of 0:29:14.360 --> 0:29:19.080 fibers into a purposeful thread. So out of what seems 0:29:19.120 --> 0:29:23.040 like chaos comes order. We get purpose and direction. Out 0:29:23.040 --> 0:29:25.600 of the direction lists, we get a narrowing of focus. 0:29:25.680 --> 0:29:28.680 We get a thread, a line with a beginning and 0:29:28.760 --> 0:29:32.000 an end. So how could we not see ourselves and 0:29:32.080 --> 0:29:35.800 our world in this process, in this technology. 0:29:35.680 --> 0:29:39.600 That is true. I was also thinking about, speaking of 0:29:39.640 --> 0:29:44.720 technological metaphors, the way that thread as a metaphor kind 0:29:44.760 --> 0:29:48.880 of flattens our existence. Like, you know, thread, like any 0:29:48.920 --> 0:29:53.280 object really existing in space is a three dimensional object, 0:29:53.360 --> 0:29:56.880 but in a metaphorical sense, it is a one dimensional object. 0:29:57.360 --> 0:29:59.920 Like the metaphor of thread is something that only has lef, 0:30:00.280 --> 0:30:03.680 that doesn't even have width, you know, not to speak 0:30:03.680 --> 0:30:09.880 of depth. And yeah, I wonder how that also feeds 0:30:09.920 --> 0:30:12.880 into the use of thread as a metaphor for human life. 0:30:12.920 --> 0:30:16.080 It sort of reduces everything to one factor. 0:30:16.880 --> 0:30:19.920 Yeah, yeah, it's almost it almost you can almost imagine 0:30:19.960 --> 0:30:23.480 a situation where we see other lives as thread. I mean, 0:30:23.520 --> 0:30:25.280 I feel like I do this all the time, you know, 0:30:25.560 --> 0:30:27.920 I look back on an actor and an older film, 0:30:28.000 --> 0:30:30.160 and what do I want to know? I want to 0:30:30.200 --> 0:30:32.240 know like the basic thread of everything. I want to 0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:35.280 know the timeline, you know, that's just part of our 0:30:35.320 --> 0:30:38.280 linear existence. And then how do we experience ourselves? Well, 0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:41.040 sometimes I feel like we do think of ourselves as threads, 0:30:41.040 --> 0:30:43.360 and we think of ourselves as a linear story. But 0:30:43.480 --> 0:30:46.440 we also, I think, experience ourselves as just that mass 0:30:46.480 --> 0:30:51.560 of chaotic fiber. So yeah, interesting to think about this, 0:30:51.640 --> 0:30:55.280 but yeah, it one can only you know, imagine how 0:30:55.760 --> 0:30:59.480 these sorts of contemplations originally came together, you know, via 0:30:59.600 --> 0:31:03.600 this crafting technology. And so let's go ahead and turn 0:31:03.600 --> 0:31:07.480 into what it's probably, at least in the Western world, 0:31:07.560 --> 0:31:11.680 the most famous example of this from Hellenistic tradition. You 0:31:11.680 --> 0:31:14.920 want to talk about the fates, let's get in there. Yeah, okay, okay. 0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:18.800 These are the Greek fates, also known as the Moirai. 0:31:19.680 --> 0:31:24.040 They are three divine sisters with individual names They are 0:31:24.120 --> 0:31:30.520 named Clotho, Lacasis, and Atropos, usually depicted as three women 0:31:30.800 --> 0:31:34.720 who respectively spin out the thread of life, measure it 0:31:34.800 --> 0:31:39.320 to size, and then cut it off. They're depicted with 0:31:39.640 --> 0:31:44.040 their implements, usually for their individual jobs, so you know, 0:31:44.440 --> 0:31:47.000 like with this tool theme we've talked about, they also 0:31:47.040 --> 0:31:52.920 have tools. Clotho usually has a spindle, Lacsis holds sometimes 0:31:52.920 --> 0:31:57.000 a measuring rod, and Atropos most famously wields a pair 0:31:57.040 --> 0:32:00.400 of scissors or shears to snip the thread of life. 0:32:01.120 --> 0:32:04.600 And these tools are not always consistent in some tellings. 0:32:04.600 --> 0:32:08.680 For example, Lacsis has casting lots instead of a rod, 0:32:09.800 --> 0:32:12.800 and that's actually there in her name. I think I 0:32:12.840 --> 0:32:15.560 forget exactly, but I believe Lacsis means something like the 0:32:15.560 --> 0:32:20.080 one who casts lots or something signifies her agency in 0:32:20.280 --> 0:32:23.240 basically rolling the dice on what kind of life you 0:32:23.280 --> 0:32:27.600 will have. She is the determiner of the length and 0:32:27.720 --> 0:32:32.440 type of life. And sometimes instead of shears, Atropos has 0:32:32.480 --> 0:32:35.360 a knife or in some cases a document like a 0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:38.120 scroll or some other kind of document, which I think 0:32:38.360 --> 0:32:41.080 signifies something like reading out your death sentence. 0:32:41.720 --> 0:32:43.640 In any case, though, I can't help but think about 0:32:43.680 --> 0:32:46.440 what we were talking about earlier, Like whatever you specifically 0:32:46.520 --> 0:32:48.800 put in her hand, it does kind of change the 0:32:48.880 --> 0:32:50.040 nature of what she's doing. 0:32:50.320 --> 0:32:55.720 Yeah. Yeah, the scissors make her a little creepier. The 0:32:55.920 --> 0:32:59.520 document makes her sinister in a different way, Like she's 0:32:59.600 --> 0:33:03.200 the judge, you know, telling you, Okay, here's here's what 0:33:03.200 --> 0:33:03.840 you got coming. 0:33:04.160 --> 0:33:07.000 Yeah, but it's also like, hey, what can you do 0:33:07.200 --> 0:33:09.720 this was I've got this decree, I've got to follow it, 0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:09.920 you know. 0:33:10.840 --> 0:33:15.880 So the three sisters together are responsible for enforcing the 0:33:16.000 --> 0:33:19.000 laws of fate and destiny to make certain that the 0:33:19.120 --> 0:33:24.360 lives of mortals unfold as they are preordained. And often 0:33:24.520 --> 0:33:27.480 this involves, or not often, I guess always this involves 0:33:27.520 --> 0:33:32.280 a fated form of death. So the fates altogether represent 0:33:33.080 --> 0:33:36.520 first of all, the guaranteed finitude of life. But I 0:33:36.520 --> 0:33:41.560 would say that Atropos in particular has some grim reaper 0:33:41.760 --> 0:33:45.200 like qualities, because as the one who cuts the thread 0:33:45.240 --> 0:33:47.760 of life with her shears, she's the one who most 0:33:47.840 --> 0:33:50.760 directly seals your doom. And also, you know, kind of 0:33:50.800 --> 0:33:54.320 like the reaper, she has a sharp instrument. A big 0:33:54.360 --> 0:33:56.880 thing that I want to discuss about the Greek fates 0:33:57.760 --> 0:34:01.760 is the most common theme of stories about them, both 0:34:02.120 --> 0:34:06.240 in stories about them as goddesses and in stories about 0:34:06.280 --> 0:34:10.920 fate as a principle. Is this common theme is that 0:34:11.000 --> 0:34:16.320 a mortal person might find a way to temporarily escape 0:34:16.440 --> 0:34:21.320 their fate or destiny, but somehow the faded outcome will 0:34:21.480 --> 0:34:25.560 find a way to happen. All apparent escape hatches are 0:34:25.680 --> 0:34:30.040 actually just detours and delays, which in a way is 0:34:30.120 --> 0:34:33.279 literally true about death. Like, we can find ways to 0:34:33.440 --> 0:34:37.200 put it off in a sense, though there are questions, 0:34:37.200 --> 0:34:40.440 I guess in strictly physical terms about what that means 0:34:40.480 --> 0:34:42.399 to put it off. I mean, you're going to die. 0:34:42.680 --> 0:34:45.719 When you're going to die, you can, compared to the 0:34:45.760 --> 0:34:50.400 general population, hopefully do things that will increase your chances 0:34:50.440 --> 0:34:53.080 of living longer. But you know, there's not like any 0:34:53.160 --> 0:34:55.240 way you could have of knowing that, Oh I would 0:34:55.280 --> 0:34:58.160 have died at this earlier time had I not done X. 0:34:58.480 --> 0:35:02.000 Yeah, they're obviously a number of facts involved, many of 0:35:02.040 --> 0:35:03.560 which are completely out of our control. 0:35:03.800 --> 0:35:06.719 Yeah, But so we can find ways to put it off, 0:35:06.760 --> 0:35:09.839 but eventually death always comes, no matter your efforts, and 0:35:09.880 --> 0:35:13.040 that is what fate is like in most Greek storytelling. 0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:17.000 There are tons of stories in Greek mythology that are 0:35:17.120 --> 0:35:20.759 used to illustrate this principle. One example I wanted to 0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:24.759 talk about is the story of the hero Melieger. You 0:35:24.800 --> 0:35:25.319 know this one. 0:35:25.880 --> 0:35:27.319 I don't know if that's meant with this one. 0:35:27.360 --> 0:35:31.560 Okay. So Melieger's parents are the king and Queen of 0:35:31.600 --> 0:35:36.239 the Greek kingdom of Caledon. When Melieger is born, the 0:35:36.320 --> 0:35:39.759 fates come to his mother, Althea, and they tell her 0:35:40.000 --> 0:35:43.000 that her newborn son is doomed and he's going to 0:35:43.080 --> 0:35:46.680 die as soon as the log currently burning in the 0:35:46.719 --> 0:35:51.520 fireplace is consumed. But notice they gave her a clause 0:35:51.560 --> 0:35:55.000 there there's an or a win. So Althea thinks she 0:35:55.080 --> 0:35:58.279 has found a cheat code to escape the fate. She 0:35:58.640 --> 0:36:01.799 extinguishes the fire, and she takes the wood out of 0:36:01.800 --> 0:36:04.320 the hearth and hides it in a secret box. 0:36:04.680 --> 0:36:07.399 So kind of a don't eat daddy's soul donut sort 0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:08.600 of situation here. 0:36:08.440 --> 0:36:12.800 Yes, exactly, So, yeah, it seems like she's found a workaround. 0:36:13.239 --> 0:36:17.640 Mellieger grows up strong and handsome, and he eventually falls 0:36:17.640 --> 0:36:21.719 in love with the fleet footed huntress Atalanta, and then, 0:36:21.840 --> 0:36:26.640 after the slaying of the monstrous Caledonian boar, Mellieger gives 0:36:26.719 --> 0:36:31.239 the boar's hide to his new love, to Atalanta. This 0:36:31.360 --> 0:36:38.560 gift makes Mellieger's maternal uncles his mom's brothers angry because 0:36:38.800 --> 0:36:41.480 they want the boar's hide for themselves and they feel 0:36:41.480 --> 0:36:44.480 insulted that Mellieger is giving it to a woman instead, 0:36:44.840 --> 0:36:47.880 so they try to steal it from Atalanta by force, 0:36:48.320 --> 0:36:53.319 and for this Mellieger kills them, kills his uncles, So 0:36:53.440 --> 0:36:57.600 now Mellieger is a kin killer, and his mother, Althea, 0:36:58.600 --> 0:37:03.080 becomes torn between family loyalties. She loves her son, but 0:37:03.239 --> 0:37:07.160 her son has killed her brothers, and ultimately, in an 0:37:07.160 --> 0:37:09.759 act that can be interpreted multiple ways, you could think 0:37:09.760 --> 0:37:15.239 of this as retaliation or punishment, or maybe even contrition 0:37:15.640 --> 0:37:19.560 for her earlier attempt to cheat the fates. For whatever reason, 0:37:19.760 --> 0:37:23.120 she takes the hidden log out of the chest and 0:37:23.160 --> 0:37:26.160 throws it back into the fireplace, and when the wood 0:37:26.200 --> 0:37:30.400 is consumed by the fire, Mellyager drops dead. So you 0:37:30.520 --> 0:37:34.240 thought you could avoid fate, but somehow it happened anyway. 0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:36.440 Oh, this is a good one. Yeah, you know, I 0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:39.640 had heard this one before, and I think there might 0:37:39.640 --> 0:37:42.759 have been a ted ed video about it. Certainly. Once 0:37:43.160 --> 0:37:45.600 you introduced the log I was like, oh, yeah, this 0:37:45.719 --> 0:37:46.720 is the one. 0:37:46.960 --> 0:37:49.719 So you know, that's a common format of the fate 0:37:49.840 --> 0:37:52.080 stories in Greek telling. But I was looking for more 0:37:52.160 --> 0:37:55.280 stories on this theme. And there's actually a whole section 0:37:55.600 --> 0:37:59.720 dedicated to fatalism in this book I've got. It's William 0:37:59.719 --> 0:38:03.400 Hannahson's Book of Greek and Roman folk Tales, Legends and Myths, 0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:07.279 from Princeton University Press, twenty seventeen. And I thought a 0:38:07.280 --> 0:38:10.239 couple of these were really interesting. So one of these 0:38:10.320 --> 0:38:15.080 stories is a later tale told by the Roman author Alien, 0:38:15.840 --> 0:38:19.920 and it takes place in Athens after the Peloponnesian War. 0:38:20.440 --> 0:38:23.359 This was the war in the fifth century BCE where 0:38:23.400 --> 0:38:27.960 Athens and its allies fought Sparta and its allies. Sparta 0:38:28.040 --> 0:38:31.359 won this war and afterwards installed a new government over 0:38:31.400 --> 0:38:35.160 Athens made up of Spartan controlled oligarchs who were known 0:38:35.200 --> 0:38:39.160 as the Thirty Tyrants or just the thirty. And so 0:38:40.360 --> 0:38:43.080 I think there may be some different versions of this story, 0:38:43.120 --> 0:38:46.560 but this is the version told in this telling by 0:38:46.600 --> 0:38:50.040 Alien that is recounted in this book by Hansen. So 0:38:50.080 --> 0:38:54.399 the story goes that the Athenian statesman Theramones has been 0:38:54.480 --> 0:38:57.520 hanging out in a particular house in the city, and 0:38:57.560 --> 0:38:59.960 one morning he gets up, he walks out of the 0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:03.839 front door of the house, and immediately afterwards the whole 0:39:03.880 --> 0:39:08.359 building collapses behind him, leaving him unharmed. So if he'd 0:39:08.400 --> 0:39:10.960 been inside a moment longer, he would have been crushed. 0:39:11.800 --> 0:39:14.680 So people come from all around. They are astonished at 0:39:14.680 --> 0:39:17.799 his good luck. But while all the neighbors are really 0:39:17.840 --> 0:39:22.360 happy for him, Theremines himself gives a more cautious response. 0:39:22.880 --> 0:39:26.920 He says, zeus, for what occasion have you preserved me? 0:39:27.800 --> 0:39:31.840 And then right after that alien narrates quote. Not long afterward, 0:39:31.960 --> 0:39:34.840 he was put to death by the thirty condemned to 0:39:34.920 --> 0:39:41.040 drink himlock some notes of final destination here. So the 0:39:41.120 --> 0:39:45.759 idea is, after one incredibly lucky escape from death, you're 0:39:45.880 --> 0:39:49.640 kind of in debt to the fates, and your account 0:39:49.680 --> 0:39:54.200 will soon be settled by other means. In the Greek context, 0:39:54.440 --> 0:39:57.799 I think it's also significant that the death from a 0:39:57.840 --> 0:40:01.839 collapsing house, the death that Theram these escapes here, would 0:40:01.880 --> 0:40:06.360 be a relatively quick and neutral death in terms of honor. 0:40:07.239 --> 0:40:10.720 So he's spared that relatively quick and neutral death, only 0:40:10.760 --> 0:40:14.719 too soon after be condemned to a much nastier and 0:40:14.840 --> 0:40:18.720 more humiliating end where he's you know, so he misses 0:40:18.760 --> 0:40:20.960 out on being instantly taken by an act of the 0:40:21.000 --> 0:40:24.120 gods and instead gets wiped out in a reign of 0:40:24.239 --> 0:40:26.280 terror by his victorious enemies. 0:40:27.239 --> 0:40:30.919 I mean, still could have been worse, but but yeah, 0:40:31.160 --> 0:40:31.839 I got your meaning. 0:40:32.239 --> 0:40:35.000 And note that there's no personification of the fates in 0:40:35.080 --> 0:40:37.520 these stories. They didn't always have to be personified. That 0:40:37.600 --> 0:40:40.959 the principle of fatalism and the cosmic balance comes through. 0:40:42.320 --> 0:40:45.480 Another awesome story that Hanson includes in this book is 0:40:46.040 --> 0:40:49.920 from the Greek historian Herodotus, and this one is called 0:40:50.080 --> 0:40:53.839 the Last Days of mike Karenos. Mike Arnos is the 0:40:53.840 --> 0:40:58.480 Greek name of the Old Kingdom Egyptian pharaoh Mencora. So 0:40:58.920 --> 0:41:03.400 this story is interesting because it is the closest anybody 0:41:03.640 --> 0:41:06.800 seems to get to escaping their fate in the stories 0:41:06.840 --> 0:41:10.600 I was reading, but only in a way that's questionable 0:41:10.719 --> 0:41:15.439 as an actor. So here's how Herodotus tells it. So it's 0:41:15.480 --> 0:41:19.560 like the pharaoh mike Karenos gets an oracle from a 0:41:19.600 --> 0:41:24.279 city called Bhutto that he will only live for six 0:41:24.400 --> 0:41:27.280 more years and will die in the seventh year. Hence, 0:41:28.160 --> 0:41:30.920 he does not like hearing this, obviously, and he sends 0:41:30.920 --> 0:41:34.960 a message back to the oracle saying, this is not fair. 0:41:35.400 --> 0:41:38.200 You know, my father and my uncle who ruled before me, 0:41:38.360 --> 0:41:42.200 they both lived to a ripe old age, and they 0:41:42.400 --> 0:41:46.120 were constantly doing things to anger the gods. They shut 0:41:46.160 --> 0:41:50.200 down temples, they forgot to make sacrifices, and they also 0:41:50.239 --> 0:41:53.759 did tons of murder. They're terrible guys. I, on the 0:41:53.800 --> 0:41:56.879 other hand, I am pious, I honor the gods. I'm 0:41:56.920 --> 0:41:59.319 not a murderer. It does not make sense that the 0:41:59.320 --> 0:42:02.239 gods would get give them longevity and cut my own 0:42:02.280 --> 0:42:05.760 life short. And then a message comes back from the oracle, 0:42:06.239 --> 0:42:09.520 this is great. Turns out, it is because you are 0:42:09.560 --> 0:42:13.000 pious and righteous that your life is being snuffed out early, 0:42:13.480 --> 0:42:19.320 because you are refusing to fulfill your evil destiny. Whoa see. 0:42:19.360 --> 0:42:22.640 It turns out that before your father was king, before 0:42:22.640 --> 0:42:25.080 your father and uncle were king, it was faded that 0:42:25.239 --> 0:42:28.759 Egypt would suffer and be afflicted with horrors for one 0:42:28.840 --> 0:42:32.680 hundred and fifty years. Your father and uncle understood that 0:42:32.760 --> 0:42:36.360 they had to fulfill their destiny and be terrible rulers, 0:42:36.760 --> 0:42:40.080 so they made sure that things were really bad around here, 0:42:40.400 --> 0:42:43.520 but look, we're still on the clock. Egypt is still 0:42:43.560 --> 0:42:46.040 faded to suffer, and you are doing too good of 0:42:46.080 --> 0:42:51.920 a job. So Herodotus says. Quote. When Mike Karenos heard 0:42:52.040 --> 0:42:55.080 that his lot had already been decided, he had a 0:42:55.200 --> 0:42:59.120 large number of lamps made, lighting them at night, and 0:42:59.160 --> 0:43:02.719 he drank and enjoyed himself without cease, day and night. 0:43:03.280 --> 0:43:07.080 He roamed the marshlands, groves, and any other pleasant place 0:43:07.080 --> 0:43:10.040 of enjoyment that he came to know. He devised this 0:43:10.120 --> 0:43:13.440 strategy in order to prove that the oracle was mistaken. 0:43:13.880 --> 0:43:18.080 By making his nights into days, he had twelve years 0:43:18.120 --> 0:43:19.560 to live instead of six. 0:43:20.120 --> 0:43:22.520 Oh man, what a life hack. I feel like I've 0:43:22.520 --> 0:43:27.960 heard versions of this song from influencers in recent years. 0:43:28.200 --> 0:43:30.600 Not the only person to have figured out this hack. Yeah, 0:43:30.640 --> 0:43:34.160 you double your lifespan by never sleeping. It's true. So 0:43:34.440 --> 0:43:40.200 several interesting themes here. One is this story depicts different 0:43:40.360 --> 0:43:44.360 ways that you cannot escape fate. So as with the 0:43:44.440 --> 0:43:48.160 other stories, like you cannot escape your own personal fate. 0:43:48.520 --> 0:43:51.000 You know, the King's death prophesied by the oracle here, 0:43:51.600 --> 0:43:57.680 except maybe through changing your mindset the external events won't change. 0:43:57.680 --> 0:44:01.040 You will still die, you know, for six years, because 0:44:01.040 --> 0:44:04.680 that's what you're fated to do, But you can change 0:44:04.719 --> 0:44:06.000 the way you think about it. 0:44:07.680 --> 0:44:12.000 Yeah, yeah, And I mean that's a message that still 0:44:12.000 --> 0:44:12.760 resonates today. 0:44:13.520 --> 0:44:17.319 Also, there's the message that the gods will kill you 0:44:17.440 --> 0:44:20.640 if you try to resist or alter a broader, more 0:44:20.640 --> 0:44:24.480 collective form of fate. So Egypt, it's supposed to be 0:44:24.520 --> 0:44:26.719 bad here. It is destined to be a terrible place 0:44:26.760 --> 0:44:29.000 for one hundred and fifty years. It's only been like 0:44:29.000 --> 0:44:31.560 one hundred and six years, and you're being too nice 0:44:31.640 --> 0:44:34.000 and ruling too well. So we've got to kick you 0:44:34.080 --> 0:44:37.000 out so we can get a solid, incompetent tyrant in 0:44:37.040 --> 0:44:37.839 here to play ball. 0:44:38.440 --> 0:44:40.440 Oh wow, that is a good one. 0:44:40.920 --> 0:44:43.360 One more interesting note about the role of fate in 0:44:44.200 --> 0:44:48.000 Greek theology. I was reading this in a brief note 0:44:48.040 --> 0:44:52.600 in the Oxford Encyclopedia of World Mythology edited by David Leming, 0:44:53.200 --> 0:44:57.120 and they're Leaming notes that the fates seem to present 0:44:57.320 --> 0:45:02.040 a paradox or a theological problem within Greek mythology because 0:45:02.920 --> 0:45:07.280 they are depicted as being in some cases the ultimate 0:45:07.360 --> 0:45:12.080 authority over life and death, though in other contexts Zeus 0:45:12.160 --> 0:45:15.160 is said to be that authority, So who is really 0:45:15.200 --> 0:45:17.680 the master of life and death? This really does present 0:45:17.719 --> 0:45:20.799 a kind of could God create a boulder so big 0:45:20.840 --> 0:45:25.319 he couldn't lift it problem within Greek religious thinking, And 0:45:25.360 --> 0:45:28.320 this is never fully resolved anywhere. There are just some 0:45:28.640 --> 0:45:32.200 texts that have one answer, some texts have a different answer. 0:45:32.560 --> 0:45:35.280 Some texts don't seem to have an answer to this question. 0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:38.320 But it is it is who is really the master 0:45:38.400 --> 0:45:41.279 of life and death? Is it Fate or is it 0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:42.120 the God Supreme? 0:45:43.120 --> 0:45:48.440 By having apoltheistic structure like this and all fully loaded pantheon, 0:45:49.040 --> 0:45:53.200 it does seem like you allow these sorts of paradoxes 0:45:53.200 --> 0:45:55.080 a little more room to breathe, right. 0:45:55.880 --> 0:45:58.560 I guess so? But yeah, well, I mean you can 0:45:58.800 --> 0:46:02.680 resolve some Paradoix boxes and create others. So like within 0:46:02.719 --> 0:46:07.400 a polytheistic pantheon, you don't have the Odyssey problems like 0:46:07.440 --> 0:46:10.120 you do with the belief in like a single God 0:46:10.160 --> 0:46:12.359 who is all good and all powerful. You know, why 0:46:12.360 --> 0:46:14.400 do bad things happen to good people? Well, if you've 0:46:14.400 --> 0:46:19.200 got polytheism, you've just got like lots of different thoughts 0:46:19.280 --> 0:46:22.320 with different motives and different levels of power and there's 0:46:22.440 --> 0:46:25.799 just like you know, that's just what happens. So that's 0:46:25.840 --> 0:46:27.920 like a kind of problem you don't really have as 0:46:28.000 --> 0:46:31.279 much with polytheism. I don't know, people probably still find 0:46:31.280 --> 0:46:34.480 their way there sometimes sometimes, but seems easier to resolve 0:46:34.520 --> 0:46:38.640 if there is a diversity of greater powers than humankind. 0:46:39.760 --> 0:46:42.360 But yeah, you create new problems like this, like you, 0:46:42.560 --> 0:46:46.520 you come up with competing domains and there will probably 0:46:46.560 --> 0:46:49.279 be conflicting beliefs about who's really in charge of what. 0:46:50.040 --> 0:46:53.560 Yeah, we'll see some of this reflected in what we're 0:46:53.560 --> 0:47:06.280 going to turn to next. Having talked about the fates, 0:47:06.920 --> 0:47:08.839 I want to talk a little bit about what are 0:47:08.920 --> 0:47:14.879 essentially the fates of Norse mythology, the Norn. They line 0:47:14.920 --> 0:47:16.680 up in a number of ways with the fates, and 0:47:16.800 --> 0:47:20.840 in some tellings, to be clear, stories about the Norns 0:47:21.280 --> 0:47:24.280 may have been influenced by these traditions of the fates 0:47:24.320 --> 0:47:26.960 and so forth. But we're also dealing with just some 0:47:27.120 --> 0:47:30.960 very ancient ideas that a number of Indo European cultures 0:47:31.000 --> 0:47:35.280 have in common. So yeah, we have the Norn again, 0:47:35.400 --> 0:47:37.680 the fates of the Norse, if you will. They are 0:47:37.719 --> 0:47:40.520 said to be the daughters of Dabblin, the dwarf, the 0:47:40.560 --> 0:47:43.440 slumbering one, and they are also known by other names 0:47:43.480 --> 0:47:47.880 such as the noor Ear and the words This is 0:47:47.880 --> 0:47:52.480 apparently associated with a term that means to turn. So 0:47:52.560 --> 0:47:55.239 there are three of them, much like the fates of 0:47:55.280 --> 0:47:58.000 Hellenistic traditions, and we're told that they dwell at the 0:47:58.040 --> 0:48:01.880 base of the Great World tree ill where they reside 0:48:02.040 --> 0:48:05.480 over one of the three wells or well springs, and 0:48:05.520 --> 0:48:10.080 this water is used to water the Great Tree. They're 0:48:10.080 --> 0:48:13.680 sometimes described as being dressed all in gray with gray veils, 0:48:14.239 --> 0:48:17.680 other times as appearing like they're covered in feathers, like 0:48:17.680 --> 0:48:20.640 they're wearing feathers, as the Valkyries often are, as well 0:48:20.800 --> 0:48:24.279 more on the Valkyries in a minute. They also are 0:48:24.320 --> 0:48:28.480 given names. So of the Norn, we have Urdur, the 0:48:28.680 --> 0:48:32.960 Norn of the past, also sometimes known as Weird like 0:48:33.160 --> 0:48:37.320 w Yrd Weird. We also have Randi, the Norn of 0:48:37.360 --> 0:48:40.560 the present, and then we have Skulled, the Norn of 0:48:40.600 --> 0:48:44.120 the future, And there's a lot of overlap between the 0:48:44.200 --> 0:48:47.839 Norn and like the Valkyries, Scold is also sometimes said 0:48:47.880 --> 0:48:52.400 to be the name of a valkyrie. So they spin 0:48:52.640 --> 0:48:54.920 not and weave the thread of fate for a new 0:48:54.960 --> 0:48:57.880 born babe. But they also seem to serve as agents 0:48:57.880 --> 0:49:02.040 of death in more of an atomon fashion, so like 0:49:02.120 --> 0:49:05.600 the fates, they spin and eventually cut the thread. But again, 0:49:05.600 --> 0:49:10.760 the actual technological metaphors sometimes varies with weaving accounts, perhaps 0:49:10.800 --> 0:49:14.480 influenced by the Greek or some common source. Other sources 0:49:14.520 --> 0:49:18.239 mentioned carving rooms on wooden slips, and then there are 0:49:18.239 --> 0:49:20.480 other accounts that really focus more on the watering of 0:49:20.520 --> 0:49:24.400 the roots of the world tree. But in general it 0:49:24.440 --> 0:49:27.440 seems fair to sort of classify them as serving the 0:49:27.560 --> 0:49:31.680 role of the fates. Here we also see the idea 0:49:31.719 --> 0:49:36.719 that the norns are highly mysterious and they actually may 0:49:36.800 --> 0:49:41.120 vary greatly in number. In the prose ed, for example, 0:49:41.400 --> 0:49:43.839 we see the idea that in addition to the main 0:49:43.920 --> 0:49:47.800 three norns, there are additional both good norns and evil norns, 0:49:48.160 --> 0:49:50.000 and this is why there is such a lack of 0:49:50.120 --> 0:49:53.960 uniformity in the way life unfolds for people. It's mentioned like, well, 0:49:53.960 --> 0:49:57.120 why does why did this guy have such bad luck? 0:49:57.120 --> 0:50:00.719 And why did he die so soon so horribly and 0:50:00.800 --> 0:50:02.719 so forth, and they're like, oh, well, his life was 0:50:02.760 --> 0:50:05.279 probably overseen by an evil norn, as opposed to a 0:50:05.320 --> 0:50:09.800 good norn. And there's also discussion about how like norns 0:50:09.840 --> 0:50:13.560 are drawn from different species as well, like that could 0:50:13.560 --> 0:50:15.960 have been an elf norn or something to that effect. 0:50:16.480 --> 0:50:19.440 Okay, so it was a bad norn, and not that 0:50:19.520 --> 0:50:21.520 he was too nice and he was supposed to be 0:50:21.560 --> 0:50:24.040 a bad friend to all his friends because he was faded. 0:50:27.200 --> 0:50:28.799 Call back there, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:50:29.160 --> 0:50:31.640 Basically you can end up blaming it on a bureaucracy 0:50:31.680 --> 0:50:34.560 of norns, like oh, sorry, you got a real bummer norn. 0:50:34.600 --> 0:50:38.880 There happens. But the norns are closely associated with some 0:50:39.000 --> 0:50:42.600 other spirits and Norse traditions. There's the philja, which are 0:50:42.640 --> 0:50:47.840 like hereditary protective guardians, though apparently rarely seen except in 0:50:47.960 --> 0:50:52.080 dreams or at the time of death. There are hamongjas, 0:50:52.320 --> 0:50:55.200 which are like household guardian spirits, but also spirits of 0:50:55.280 --> 0:50:59.000 luck and happiness. So indeed, beginning to get a sense of, 0:50:59.640 --> 0:51:03.440 perhaps all told, a rather large bureaucracy of supernatural beings 0:51:04.400 --> 0:51:08.440 that are attending to the direction of your life. And then, 0:51:08.480 --> 0:51:11.239 of course we have the valkyries. The choosers of the 0:51:11.280 --> 0:51:16.360 slain generally describe more as psychopomps than anything, you know, 0:51:16.400 --> 0:51:20.840 they escort the souls of the dead onto Odin's valhalla, 0:51:20.960 --> 0:51:24.720 you know, the portion of the afterlife that is reserved 0:51:24.760 --> 0:51:27.560 for the valiant dead, where they get to keep fighting 0:51:27.719 --> 0:51:30.600 and killing each other, but then also setting down having 0:51:30.600 --> 0:51:33.359 a you know, whole bunch of drinks and it's lit 0:51:33.400 --> 0:51:34.800 by the light of their swords. 0:51:35.080 --> 0:51:37.040 Only special certain dead go there. 0:51:37.200 --> 0:51:39.640 Yeah yeah, and you get to eat that magical boar 0:51:39.800 --> 0:51:44.680 that never dies, so you know, good stuff. And of course, 0:51:45.080 --> 0:51:48.160 the Valkyries are also closely associated with Hell, the name 0:51:48.200 --> 0:51:50.680 given to both the underworld and the female deity that 0:51:50.760 --> 0:51:53.920 rules over it, but she only rules over a portion 0:51:54.120 --> 0:51:59.120 of the overall dead. Multiple gods, including Odin, oversee the 0:51:59.200 --> 0:52:02.480 dead of different sorts, and there are different gatherers of 0:52:02.520 --> 0:52:06.200 the dead we already discussed Ran, the ocean goddess who 0:52:06.239 --> 0:52:09.600 collects the drown dead via a net and then presides 0:52:09.640 --> 0:52:13.080 over them again. They are often said to be three 0:52:13.160 --> 0:52:18.840 valkyries as well, with varied attributed names. Beautiful virgin female 0:52:18.840 --> 0:52:22.760 warriors sometimes closed in feathers, and their name literally means 0:52:22.760 --> 0:52:26.600 she who chooses the dead. Borges in the book The 0:52:26.680 --> 0:52:30.239 Book of Imaginary Beings points out that the Valkyries were 0:52:30.280 --> 0:52:34.880 invoked in Anglo Saxon spells against muscle pain, and in 0:52:35.080 --> 0:52:38.719 medieval Christian England the term was apparently closely associated with 0:52:38.760 --> 0:52:41.600 the witch just sewing you know, you know, under you. 0:52:42.680 --> 0:52:45.759 In Christian times, house and many of these older concepts 0:52:45.760 --> 0:52:52.400 become simplified and vilified in their treatment. But yeah, the 0:52:53.200 --> 0:52:57.560 norns here do seem to fulfill a similar purpose in 0:52:57.800 --> 0:53:02.520 Norse mythology, Like they are there at the beginning, deciding 0:53:03.000 --> 0:53:05.040 more or less, like how things are going to turn 0:53:05.080 --> 0:53:08.319 out for you? Like is what is the course of 0:53:08.360 --> 0:53:11.000 your lives? And really both of these models, you know, 0:53:11.040 --> 0:53:14.239 get down to some of those deep contemplations that our 0:53:14.280 --> 0:53:17.560 ancestors had throughout their lives, just as we have them 0:53:17.560 --> 0:53:20.120 throughout our lives, like why is my life the way 0:53:20.120 --> 0:53:24.000 it is? Why why are my days numbered like they are? 0:53:24.160 --> 0:53:27.040 And asking these same questions for everyone around them, like 0:53:27.080 --> 0:53:31.200 why does this seemingly awful person just live forever doing 0:53:31.239 --> 0:53:34.439 bad things whereas like the best of us are cut 0:53:34.480 --> 0:53:36.600 down in their prime. That sort of thing. It's always 0:53:36.680 --> 0:53:37.680 been a conundrum. 0:53:38.040 --> 0:53:40.000 Yeah, I guess the gears are kind of turning in 0:53:40.080 --> 0:53:44.080 my head about what difference it makes when when fade 0:53:44.160 --> 0:53:47.680 is personified versus just a process or a principle of 0:53:47.719 --> 0:53:50.759 the universe, because you know, obviously you can think about 0:53:50.800 --> 0:53:54.480 it as an impersonal force or just a process, a 0:53:54.600 --> 0:53:59.640 natural balancing that occurs. Yeah, how is it different when 0:53:59.680 --> 0:54:03.120 it's in a body? Yeah? Yeah. 0:54:03.160 --> 0:54:07.480 And in these cases, is particularly with the norns and 0:54:07.520 --> 0:54:10.279 the fates, there is a sense that no matter how 0:54:10.360 --> 0:54:14.280 nasty those scissors are that ultimately cut the life string, 0:54:15.320 --> 0:54:18.440 they're not the only individual involved in the process. Like 0:54:19.000 --> 0:54:21.799 they're just responding to the way the thread was measured out, 0:54:21.840 --> 0:54:24.719 and the person who measured the thread out didn't actually 0:54:24.800 --> 0:54:29.439 make the thread. So it does point seemingly in large 0:54:29.440 --> 0:54:33.080 part to a more automaton view of death, and more 0:54:33.120 --> 0:54:38.759 of an automaton death figure with less cruelty. But then 0:54:38.920 --> 0:54:42.399 also room for it is in the Norse example, room 0:54:42.480 --> 0:54:46.160 for bad norns, you know, room for situations where oh, 0:54:46.200 --> 0:54:49.040 well you really you really did you know, get kind 0:54:49.080 --> 0:54:52.640 of a you know, a Boem sentence there with this 0:54:52.680 --> 0:54:59.799 particular reading. So again we generate these different ideas out 0:54:59.840 --> 0:55:05.320 of contemplation of these largely unanswerable questions of fate and death. 0:55:06.760 --> 0:55:09.960 All right, well, with that, we must draw out our 0:55:10.000 --> 0:55:13.280 scissors and cut the string on this episode of Stuff 0:55:13.280 --> 0:55:15.359 to Blow Your Mind, but we're going to be back. 0:55:15.520 --> 0:55:18.160 We're going to continue this series because there's so much 0:55:18.440 --> 0:55:21.480 we haven't gotten into, so it's always difficult to say 0:55:21.480 --> 0:55:23.120 how many more episodes will do. I figure we'll at 0:55:23.200 --> 0:55:27.160 least do one more episode on anthropomorphic personifications of death, 0:55:27.400 --> 0:55:31.600 maybe one more. Ultimately, we don't know how much thread 0:55:31.640 --> 0:55:33.920 has been measured out for us here with this series. 0:55:34.200 --> 0:55:35.600 I guess we'll just have to find out. 0:55:36.040 --> 0:55:39.480 Yeah, all right, before we close out. Just reminder to 0:55:39.480 --> 0:55:41.360 everyone out there that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 0:55:41.440 --> 0:55:45.040 primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes on 0:55:45.080 --> 0:55:48.560 Tuesdays and Thursdays. We have short form episode on Wednesdays 0:55:48.560 --> 0:55:51.280 and on Fridays. That's when we set aside most serious 0:55:51.280 --> 0:55:54.160 concerns to just talk about a weird movie on Weird 0:55:54.239 --> 0:55:55.239 House Cinema. 0:55:55.440 --> 0:55:59.320 Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 0:56:00.000 --> 0:56:01.920 Would like to get in touch with us with feedback 0:56:01.960 --> 0:56:04.320 on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 0:56:04.360 --> 0:56:06.440 for the future, or just to say hello, you can 0:56:06.480 --> 0:56:09.280 email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 0:56:09.400 --> 0:56:17.680 dot com. 0:56:17.719 --> 0:56:20.680 Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 0:56:20.760 --> 0:56:23.560 more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 0:56:23.719 --> 0:56:40.920 Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.