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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two

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Speaker 3: in our series on Personifications of Death.

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Speaker 2: We were thinking about calling these episodes faces of Death,

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Speaker 2: but then we realized that it might be confusing title lies. Ah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, was that like when you were in I think

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Speaker 3: it was when I was in high school. I remember

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Speaker 3: people watching those things.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I remember seeing them in video stores. Never

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Speaker 2: watched them myself, but it always felt like like the

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Speaker 2: ultimate video, the ultimate forbidden video on the shelf.

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Speaker 3: Were those a mix of real footage of executions and

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Speaker 3: then fake footage pretending to be of real executions.

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Speaker 2: That's my understanding. Yeah, that it's like and not just

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Speaker 2: actual death. Especially they got further into the series. I

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Speaker 2: think it also got into stuff like, you know, just

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Speaker 2: footage from around the world, maybe like footage of big

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Speaker 2: snakes things like that. But yeah, I never saw them

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Speaker 2: and I've never sought them out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like, oh, here's a snake that ada tortoise and

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Speaker 3: then ruptured or something. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, anyway, we're

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Speaker 3: back with part two of the series on Personifications of Death.

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Speaker 3: We should do a brief refresher on what we talked

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Speaker 3: about in the last episode. So last time we mostly

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Speaker 3: talked about common types of death figures. So one distinction

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Speaker 3: we talked about was between the moment of death figure

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Speaker 3: like the grim reaper, the kind we usually think of

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Speaker 3: as appearing to someone while they're still living, either to

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Speaker 3: cause death or to signal that death is near. And

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Speaker 3: we thought about that versus a different type of character

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Speaker 3: known as the psychopomp. This is from the Greek for

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Speaker 3: soul guide or soul conductor. This is the figure who

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Speaker 3: shepherd's the soul of the recently dead into the afterlife.

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Speaker 3: The analogy we use for the distinction between these two

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Speaker 3: was that the reaper is like the bouncer who tells

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Speaker 3: you you're cut off you have to leave the bar,

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Speaker 3: and the psychopomp is the cab driver who takes you home. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We also explored an influential framework from the psychology of death,

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Speaker 3: tracing back to a book called the Psychology of Death

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Speaker 3: from nineteen seventy two by Robert Castenbaum and Ruth Eisenberg.

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Speaker 3: In this framework, the authors used surveys to study how

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Speaker 3: US participants were most likely to personify death, and these

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Speaker 3: authors ended up arguing that most of the personifications fell

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Speaker 3: into one of four general categories. You had a grim, terrifying,

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Speaker 3: and threatening figure that they called the macabre. There was

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Speaker 3: a soothing, welcoming character that they called the gentle comforter.

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Speaker 3: There was an attractive and exciting but dangerous trickster figure

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Speaker 3: they called the gay deceiver. And note that the use

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Speaker 3: of gay there was not intended as any reference to

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Speaker 3: sexual orientation. It's just the older usage, meaning like jolly

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Speaker 3: or carefree. And finally, there was a cold, impersonal entity

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Speaker 3: they called the automaton. And then after this we got

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Speaker 3: into some general findings about how these different personifications were

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Speaker 3: usually expressed, how that's changed over time, and we ended

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Speaker 3: up talking about some more recent experiments which found, among

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Speaker 3: other things, in one small study conducted on American university students,

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Speaker 3: subjects were relatively more likely to imagine death as a

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Speaker 3: comforter type figure when they thought about their own death

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Speaker 3: as opposed to other people's deaths. And hard to know

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Speaker 3: exactly what to make of that, but I kind of

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Speaker 3: interpret this as a suggestion that maybe we're more likely

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Speaker 3: to personify death as a coping strategy than as like

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Speaker 3: a raw expression of unresolved fears the way you might think,

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Speaker 3: you know, we would get to an image like the

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Speaker 3: grim macob figure. And then we also talked about a

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Speaker 3: study linking these different archetypes to particular circumstances of death.

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Speaker 3: So it's like some of these are more surprising than

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Speaker 3: others not very surprising, or the findings like you're more

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Speaker 3: likely to think about the macab grim reaper type figure

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Speaker 3: with the skeletal, you know, sadistic kind of visage if

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Speaker 3: you imagine a murder taking place outside the home, whereas

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Speaker 3: the deceiver figure the trickster was more likely to be

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Speaker 3: associated with a heart attack. That's kind of interesting. And

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Speaker 3: of course, one line running through the discussion last time

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Speaker 3: was that most of the psychology research we cited was

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Speaker 3: conducted on Americans, and the evidence is pretty clear that

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Speaker 3: the personification of death is highly culturally variable. It's not

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Speaker 3: like there's one type of death character that's hardwired into

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Speaker 3: the brain of the human animal. Though I think it

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Speaker 3: is interesting that despite the huge very in how death

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Speaker 3: is personified within and across cultures, in some way, almost

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Speaker 3: every culture does it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I think that is indeed, one of

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Speaker 2: the fascinating things about this is that there's something going

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Speaker 2: on in every human mind and in every human culture.

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Speaker 2: You know, Crunching this idea of death and these personifications

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Speaker 2: of death are one way of dealing with it. And

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Speaker 2: you know, so this is where we dig into, like

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Speaker 2: what does it mean? Why are we building these things?

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Speaker 2: And what do all the pieces mean? So I want

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Speaker 2: to follow up on some of the concepts that we

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Speaker 2: discussed in the last episode. One of the books that

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Speaker 2: I dug into for these episodes is Psyche and Death

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Speaker 2: by Edgar Herzog. I believe this was a nineteen eighty

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Speaker 2: three publication originally published by the C. J. Young Institute

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Speaker 2: in Zurich, and I believe the book the text of

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Speaker 2: the book is based on some like older presentations that

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Speaker 2: Herzog gave, so naturally, all of this is steeped in

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Speaker 2: union concepts. But I thought it was all really fascinating

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Speaker 2: and it really puts an interesting spin on some of

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Speaker 2: what we discussed last time. Okay, So Herzog goes through

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Speaker 2: some of the common animal forms of death personified in

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Speaker 2: different cultures and certainly in ancient times. So he singles

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Speaker 2: out the wool for dog, the bird, the snake, and

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Speaker 2: the horse, and I believe this gets this gets especially

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Speaker 2: it makes me think of episodes we've recorded in the past.

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Speaker 2: We've talked about the horse skull and the potent symbol

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Speaker 2: of the horse skull and how it becomes this totem

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Speaker 2: that goes beyond like the remnant of an important domesticated animal.

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Speaker 3: I don't really recall what we concluded, but didn't we

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Speaker 3: talk about the idea that for some reason, the horse

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Speaker 3: skull seems grimmer than other skulls.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does that. Yeah. But anyway, he

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Speaker 2: refers to all of these different personifications of death in

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Speaker 2: this case and beast form as death demons. That's this

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Speaker 2: sort of catch all phrase, so I'll use that as well,

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Speaker 2: and certainly when I read some quotes from him here.

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Speaker 2: But then he goes on to discuss the death demon

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Speaker 2: and the human form, and he argues, first of all

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Speaker 2: that the various animal forms of the death demon were

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Speaker 2: quote the externalization of inner images by means of which

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Speaker 2: the human psyche expresses its reaction to the experience of death. Okay,

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Speaker 2: that's basically that makes sense. That falls in mind what

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Speaker 2: we've been talking about, and he also stresses that they

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Speaker 2: were still at the same time the quote inner crystallization

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Speaker 2: of numinous experience into an image, and the human form,

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Speaker 2: which is only explicitly developed later, is secretly contained within them.

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Speaker 2: So this is understandable as well. While death might be

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Speaker 2: conceptualized as some sort of a great beast, say a

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Speaker 2: giant bird, we're still going to anthropomorphize that great beast.

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Speaker 2: But then Herzog argues that in time the shift occurs

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Speaker 2: where the death demon becomes implicitly human in form or

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Speaker 2: mostly human in form. And I'm going to read this

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Speaker 2: quote here that I thought was really telling, and there

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Speaker 2: might have been an I don't know if there was

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Speaker 2: an error in translation, but I'm going to throw an

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Speaker 2: iz in there that isn't there in the actual text

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Speaker 2: that to my understanding clarifies things. But if I messed

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Speaker 2: it up, my apologies to mister herzag quote. It is

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Speaker 2: not until the death demon becomes explicitly anthropomorphized that the

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Speaker 2: full richness of the incomprehensible event that death is begins

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Speaker 2: to emerge, even though it can never be wholly contained

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Speaker 2: in an image. When it is given human form, the

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Speaker 2: nature of the death demon is enriched and deepened and

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Speaker 2: related to the totality of the universe, the individual, and

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Speaker 2: life in a succession of new ways. So he points

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Speaker 2: out that by making death more human in form again

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Speaker 2: anthropomorphized death, death made to a being, we also firmly

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Speaker 2: allow death then to do things that humans do, such

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Speaker 2: as use tools and weapons, which you know, coming back

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Speaker 2: to the arguably and many you know, certainly in the

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Speaker 2: Western culture, the most sort of famous version is the

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Speaker 2: grim Reaper. We've referred to this already multiple times. This

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Speaker 2: is the version of death that will show up in

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Speaker 2: your like Far Side cartoons and so forth, or on

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Speaker 2: just you know, probably SpongeBob as well. You know, anywhere

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Speaker 2: you have death step in, we take it for granted,

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Speaker 2: oh he has a scythe there. But the human technology

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Speaker 2: used by a death figure a death demon allows us

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Speaker 2: to employ technological metaphors laid in with additional meanings.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so one that comes to mind for me immediately

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Speaker 3: would be the technological metaphor of harvesting with a scythe there.

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Speaker 3: That is something that we use a tool to do.

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Speaker 3: But you can think of it now that death is out,

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Speaker 3: collecting is out harve people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like the scythe really does a lot to

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Speaker 2: inform how we're supposed to feel about the reaper, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's there's certainly implied violence of cutting away. It is

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Speaker 2: the way it's sometimes brandished. It feels like a weapon,

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Speaker 2: like don't chase me with that thing.

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Speaker 3: Also makes you feel not very special, like you are

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Speaker 3: one of many. Yeah, I am a grain among the

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Speaker 3: grains of the field.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, strong sense of cyclical harvest. Yeah, this is

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Speaker 2: something that happens all the time to everybody. But there

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Speaker 2: is also an implied violence of severing. So yeah, the

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Speaker 2: inclusion of something like that can can do a lot

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Speaker 2: of lifting.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to think though, that what's the next tool

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Speaker 3: where there's a good technological death metaphor?

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Speaker 2: Oh well, we'll get to we'll get to one in

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Speaker 2: a bit.

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Speaker 3: But okay.

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Speaker 2: He also folds in the hybrid body plans of monsters

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Speaker 2: into this, so like claws, but he calls out knives, tridents,

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Speaker 2: the hook, the net by which the Nordic oceanic deity

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Speaker 2: run is said to collect the drown dead, and he

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Speaker 2: also calls up the dogs of various wild hunt traditions.

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Speaker 2: So ultimately wrapping up human domestication and not exactly a tool,

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Speaker 2: but a thing that humans do. And by making death

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Speaker 2: human or humanoid, death can do those things too and

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Speaker 2: take on those additional meanings.

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Speaker 3: This is a really good point, and I don't know

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Speaker 3: if I've ever thought about before the idea of how

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Speaker 3: the tool you imagine in death's hand affects how you

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Speaker 3: think about death. I mean, yeah, so it's clear with

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Speaker 3: something like the scythe you could go in interesting places

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Speaker 3: with it. So if you give death a frying pan,

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Speaker 3: how do you think about that? I guess there it

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Speaker 3: makes it sound like a kind of torture, doesn't it.

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Speaker 3: What if it's a mandolin slicer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I think if you gave death

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Speaker 2: a frying pan, it makes it feel like death was

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Speaker 2: doing other things. Death was making breakfast, and maybe this

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Speaker 2: isn't the primary thing that death does. On the other hand,

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Speaker 2: if you give death a long sword, and I think

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Speaker 2: sometimes you see depictions of death with some you know,

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Speaker 2: a grim reaper type figure with a long sword. Well,

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Speaker 2: now he's holding something that is a weapon. It is

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Speaker 2: it has no other purpose but to cut down and

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Speaker 2: murder people, or at least in nothing else to intimidate

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Speaker 2: them with the threat of murder. So it changes the

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Speaker 2: vibe to a very large degree.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, death as lethal enemy, not like I am not

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Speaker 3: metaphorically grain in a field here, I'm not a sheaf

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Speaker 3: of wheed. I am just a person being killed in battle. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so Herzog points out that like hooks and ropes

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Speaker 2: associated with different death figures, this conveys a sense of

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Speaker 2: snatching away sudden demise and maybe even a bit of

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Speaker 2: malice as well. A net. On the other hand, he

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Speaker 2: says that this is more passive collective. You know, you

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Speaker 2: can't feel too bad about this character that's out there

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Speaker 2: collecting the drowned dead with the net. And so in

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Speaker 2: all this we observe that the tools of death can

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Speaker 2: adjust their symbolic impression to convey any of the four

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Speaker 2: basic death types that we've talked about previously, the macop,

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Speaker 2: the gentle comforter, the gay deceiver, and the automaton. He

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Speaker 2: also points out that the humanoid form also enables the

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Speaker 2: adjustment of the image via clothing choices, and this is

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Speaker 2: something that we kind of take for granted with the

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Speaker 2: robes of death, right, the robes of the reaper you

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Speaker 2: know it just to be shrouded is to be to

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Speaker 2: take on that sense of darkness and obscurity, that same

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Speaker 2: darkness and obscurity that death will drag the human soul

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Speaker 2: into in many of these traditions. Other traditions involve magical

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Speaker 2: caps of invisibility, which would seem partial to the way

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Speaker 2: that death moves through our world, you know, unseen, certainly

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Speaker 2: striking out of nowhere and so forth, on top of

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Speaker 2: it being you know, if we're to take it literally,

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Speaker 2: some sort of supernatural entity moving through our world. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I want to come back to something else that

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Speaker 2: we mentioned in the last episode, the idea that death

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Speaker 2: should end up looking like the dead, as well as

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Speaker 2: one of those attributed death anxieties that came up in polling,

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Speaker 2: the fear of seeing a human corpse.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there was an interesting irony that came up when

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Speaker 3: we were talking about the four archetypes of death from

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Speaker 3: Castenbaum and the Eisenberg, which specifically came up with reference

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Speaker 3: to the macabre, because this is the scariest of the

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Speaker 3: four death personifications, and yet it's also the only one

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Speaker 3: that looks like it is a victim of the thing

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Speaker 3: it symbolizes. It is often represented as dead and decayed,

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Speaker 3: but none of the other three are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and again this is something that we're so used

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Speaker 2: to seeing in our representations of death, particularly with the

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Speaker 2: Grim Reaper, that we don't really stop to think how

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Speaker 2: interesting it is. Why does this bringer of death look

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Speaker 2: like death itself? It may seem like, well, yeah, well

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Speaker 2: how else would it be? Maybe you stop and look

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Speaker 2: at it, you know, you have to ask why, and

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Speaker 2: herz Our expresses that many characteristics found in the humanoid

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Speaker 2: death demon quote arise out of the experience of seeing

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Speaker 2: human corpses. To see a human corpse is to, you know,

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Speaker 2: to have to contemplate all of these realities of death.

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Speaker 2: It of course can be keep scary, anxiety or raising,

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Speaker 2: and certainly something one would fear seeing, particularly if you

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Speaker 2: get into specifics like I am afraid of seeing the

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Speaker 2: corpse of this particular person or this particular person that

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Speaker 2: I know, and you know, coming back to something we

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Speaker 2: mentioned as well, In our contemporary world, we make it

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Speaker 2: more and more possible to avoid seeing human corpses, at

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Speaker 2: least for much of our lives. But of course someone

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Speaker 2: has to see them, and historically most people would have

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Speaker 2: had a stronger connection to the physical reality of death.

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Speaker 2: Herzog also discusses the idea that masks of death play

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Speaker 2: into all of this as well, because when one dies,

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Speaker 2: the face becomes like a mask, and of course the

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Speaker 2: idea of a mask plays right into the trope of

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Speaker 2: the gay deceiver that we discussed, especially in the form

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Speaker 2: of quote one whose back is wholly different from his

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Speaker 2: appearance in front, which of course I want him like,

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Speaker 2: that's what a mask does, right, It's like, I hold

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Speaker 2: the mask in front of my face, and if you're

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Speaker 2: looking at me from the front, I have a different face.

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Speaker 2: And he points to a number of feminine death forms

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Speaker 2: and also some male death forms where it's not mere

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Speaker 2: monstrous hybridity like with sirens or harpies. But there's this

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Speaker 2: idea that the death demon is all beauty in the

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Speaker 2: front and decay in the back, so not a mix again,

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Speaker 2: not like a harpy. It's like, oh well, it looks

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Speaker 2: pretty in some ways, but it also has big claws

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Speaker 2: and vulture rings, but no one where if you're standing

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Speaker 2: direct in front of them looks like a fair form.

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Speaker 2: Standing directly behind them, you would see that they are gross.

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Speaker 3: The woman in the bathtub in the Shining.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's rotten. Yeah, Oh, she's rotten in the back.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she's a beautiful woman when yeah, and Jack Nicholson

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Speaker 3: starts to kiss her and then he sees in the

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Speaker 3: mirror that she is a rotten corpse from behind.

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Speaker 2: Been a while since I've seen that scene, and historically

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Speaker 2: I didn't get to see that scene because I would

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Speaker 2: watch television. It's kind of a hidden easter egg for.

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Speaker 3: The Shining, censored for television. Amazing, amazing choices.

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Speaker 2: But that that sounds like it may have been well

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Speaker 2: inspired by by some of these examples that I'm about

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Speaker 2: to roll out. First up, there's the Nordic Haldron, and

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Speaker 2: this is an entity where the front is said to

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Speaker 2: look like a beautiful fair form, like a beautiful woman,

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Speaker 2: but then the back of the individual is hollow, like

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Speaker 2: a kneading trough.

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Speaker 3: So that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, the back yeah yeah, just like hollow, like

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Speaker 2: a big cavity of decay. They are also apparently particular

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Speaker 2: Austrian devils that Herzog brings up, namely a Styrian and

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Speaker 2: Corinthian in which you'll have a captivating lover in the front,

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Speaker 2: but then the back is all hallowed out, like this,

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Speaker 2: hollowed out with decay. There's a fraul Hola and the

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Speaker 2: Woman of the Woods, again beautiful in the front, but

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Speaker 2: in this case like a hollowed out log in the back.

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Speaker 2: And I think this one may be connected more to

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Speaker 2: like earthy nature motifs.

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Speaker 3: Interesting recurring theme the hollow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and a lot of his examples are you know,

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Speaker 2: certainly Germanic and European and origin, but we also have

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Speaker 2: He also brings up the example of the wahout of

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Speaker 2: the luis no An indigenous people of southern California, and

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Speaker 2: this is a pretty woman with long hair in the front,

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Speaker 2: but in the back there's no flesh on her.

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Speaker 3: You know, this may be entirely off base, but I'm

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Speaker 3: thinking of this recurring theme of the form that appears

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Speaker 3: beautiful in the front but in the back is not

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Speaker 3: just ugly or you know, dead or something, but is

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Speaker 3: actually hollow. It almost makes me think of fruit of produce. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, I don't know if that's actually what's leading

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Speaker 3: to this, but I'm sure we've all had the experience

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Speaker 3: of you know, you're at the market and you're picking

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Speaker 3: up a nice looking piece of fruit, or vegetable or

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Speaker 3: something that looks great on one side you pick it

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Speaker 3: up and the other side is not just not beautiful,

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Speaker 3: but is hollow, is eaten away.

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Speaker 2: Literal bad apples, these death demons. Yeah. One of the

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Speaker 2: more interesting examples he brings up, in part because I

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Speaker 2: found like actual visual visuals of these more forthcoming on

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Speaker 2: the internet is fraul Veldt or Lady World. She pops

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Speaker 2: up in medieval European iconography and in poetry, and again

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Speaker 2: we have a case where it's generally a beautiful woman

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Speaker 2: in the front, but her back is hollow and or

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Speaker 2: infested with snakes and toads. I had to look her

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Speaker 2: up in Carol Roses Encyclopedias of Mythical Creatures, and she

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Speaker 2: describes this figure as a female supernatural lover or a

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Speaker 2: fairy mistress, one that particularly preys on monks, members of

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Speaker 2: the clergy, and so forth, with vibes of a succubus

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Speaker 2: demon or an incarnation of the devil.

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Speaker 3: It's the idea that monks are especially easy to get

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Speaker 3: or especially hard to get.

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Speaker 2: Or right, maybe they're the only ones writing about them.

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Speaker 2: I go, oh, yeah, but yeah, this is you'll actually

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Speaker 2: find sculptures of this figure, and indeed it'll be like

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Speaker 2: a you know, some it almost looks like they're wearing

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Speaker 2: a hospital gown because in the front they are clothed

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Speaker 2: and fair, and in the back the gown is open

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Speaker 2: and we just see decay. And also you'll see examples

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Speaker 2: of it looks like there are toads and or snakes

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Speaker 2: like swimming in the pestilence of their back and their

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Speaker 2: legs and their buttocks.

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Speaker 3: One of these statues you've included an image of for me.

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Speaker 3: Here it's shrunken down, so I can't quite tell, but

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Speaker 3: it kind of looks like it has crabs all over it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we find a similar image but flipped to the

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Speaker 2: mail in the sculpture Foolish versions Seduced by the Tempter

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Speaker 2: featured on the Strausburg Cathedral. Here the male tempter has

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Speaker 2: the back of decay, and I believe he's holding out

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Speaker 2: an apple, and he has animals swimming in his back

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Speaker 2: as well. And in this I'm also briefly reminded of

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Speaker 2: the accounts we have a vampires in which once you've

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Speaker 2: slain the creature, they just turn into a torrent of

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Speaker 2: snakes and bugs. Some spontaneous generation wrapped up in all

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Speaker 2: of this, to be sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, notes of Halloween three, Yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: And speaking of films, this of course made me think

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Speaker 2: of some possible exam They are possible examples of this

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Speaker 2: from horror cinema especially. There's a shot in particular from

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Speaker 2: John Carpenter's in the Mouth of Badness nineteen ninety four.

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Speaker 2: There's a scene where the character Linda Styles embraces the

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Speaker 2: enigmatic Sutter Caine, and so in the front he just

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Speaker 2: looks like Sutterkane. This you know, commanding and you know,

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Speaker 2: ruggedly handsome. Horror writer Jurgen prac now it is yes,

390
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Speaker 2: okay and a great role. And as she embraces him

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Speaker 2: and kisses him with her own eyes bleeding from the

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Speaker 2: revelations he's given her that the shot moves back and

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Speaker 2: we see that the back of him is just all monstrous,

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Speaker 2: like weird kind of decay, and there's a face back

395
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Speaker 2: there on the back of his head.

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Speaker 3: It's really more like Lovecraft goo.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Lovecraft goo, I think is a good description. I

398
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Speaker 2: was looking around. It looks like there are some other

399
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 2: examples of this as well. Some of them go they'll

400
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 2: get more into the direct trope of face back of

401
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 2: the head, and I'm not there's one in particular that

402
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 2: ended up spoiling a movie for me, so I'm not

403
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Speaker 2: gonna mention that one. But if folks have seen it,

404
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 2: you probably know what I'm talking about. And I'm not

405
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Speaker 2: talking about Harry Potter and the Sorcer of Stone. There's

406
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Speaker 2: a different one. But frau Veldt here is a terrific

407
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 2: example of the gay deceiver in that she is supposed

408
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Speaker 2: to represent the mortal world of sin and therefore death.

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Speaker 2: Something Herzog drives home really well is that within the

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Speaker 2: Christian tradition, death largely becomes not a natural aspect of creation,

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Speaker 2: but an unfortunate byproduct of human sin, and a byproduct

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Speaker 2: that may eventually be reversed or erased. So that a

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Speaker 2: very consequential way to spin a natural occurrence.

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Speaker 3: Right, So, because Adam and Eve are kicked out of

415
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Speaker 3: the Garden of Eden, death and sin come into the world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So frau Veldt reveals the wages of earthly sin.

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Speaker 2: Herzog cites a poem by twelfth and thirteenth century German

418
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Speaker 2: poet and barred Walter von der Vogelweida and in the

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Speaker 2: poem frau Veldt speaks. She says, I am the world

420
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Speaker 2: looked now upon my back and see the wage I bring.

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Speaker 2: He looked and saw her back hollow. It was San's flesh,

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Speaker 2: all full of toads, crawling with worms and stinking like

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Speaker 2: a putrefying dog. Uugh, that's pretty cool.

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Speaker 4: But why a dog? I mean putrefying anything. It's specific.

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Speaker 4: You want to be specific, you know. And presumably he's

426
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Speaker 4: singing this as well, by the way, like this is

427
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Speaker 4: this was probably a song because he was again like

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Speaker 4: a traveling bard.

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Speaker 2: Now. Her Zog ultimately argues though, that images like this

430
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Speaker 2: one they end up betraying a deeper understanding, or at

431
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 2: least a deeper contemplation of the polarity of death in life,

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Speaker 2: and one that continues to sort of resonate hidden behind

433
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 2: the Christian reworking of things, something quote so deeply disturbing

434
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 2: that it can't be grasped and permanently held. And so

435
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 2: you know, you have this image of a fraul Velt

436
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 2: and you know, again beauty on the front and on

437
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: the back, all decay and death, life on one end,

438
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 2: death on the other. And it's presented as if like, oh,

439
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 2: you know, sin looks like this from one angle, but

440
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 2: it's really this but beyond this lesson of this morality

441
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 2: lesson that's that they're trying to teach with this image,

442
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 2: there's this kind of like deeper understanding that death isn't

443
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 2: only darkness and decline, but it's also light and the scent,

444
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 2: because one side of this thing is not and cannot

445
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 2: merely be the true essence of the thing, like both

446
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: are the true face. And so yeah, even as you're

447
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 2: if you're taking this image in as a teaching implement,

448
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 2: a religious teaching implement, like it ultimately betrays even deeper

449
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 2: contemplations of life and death.

450
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 3: And possibly also brings a comforting side. Again back to

451
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 3: the idea of the personification as a coping strategy.

452
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, even though it's rolled out just to say, hey,

453
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 2: don't sin, or death will happen and so forth, and

454
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, that's one for me. The big takeaway

455
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: from Herzog's discussion of Yungi interpretations of this kind of

456
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 2: imagery is that all of these depictions have been generated

457
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 2: as a way of attempting to cope with and understand death,

458
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 2: which is in so many ways something that is just

459
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 2: too huge and varied to fully hold in our minds.

460
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: It's overwhelming, it's multifaceted, but that is one of the

461
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 2: powers of symbology, of poetry, of song, and of all

462
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,239
Speaker 2: human art. We can capture like some sense of that

463
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 2: overpowering ambiguity, polarity and ineffability of the thing, and then

464
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 2: as you hold it up to the light, you can

465
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 2: kind of catch it in different ways. Now, in the

466
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: rest of this episode, we're going to expand on some

467
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 2: of those classifications we discussed in the previous episode some more,

468
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 2: while also getting into the role fate plays and some

469
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: of humanity's anthropomorphic personifications of death. Because of course, broadly

470
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 2: death is fate. It's the one true certainty in human

471
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 2: life and something we spend much of our lives coming

472
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,479
Speaker 2: to terms with in different ways. So in that sense,

473
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 2: the idea of death personified or not, is innately tied

474
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 2: to the concept of fate.

475
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 3: Huge number of stories illustrating the concept of fate center

476
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 3: around predictions of death. This will come up in the

477
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 3: Greek context, which I'm going to talk about in a minute.

478
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 3: It's it is certainly not the only aspect of fate.

479
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 3: Fate is everything about our lives. But for some reason,

480
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 3: the most central event in stories about fate is death.

481
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the one thing that's guaranteed to happen, yea,

482
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 2: even though it doesn't always happen. It's kind of like

483
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: in our stories often we don't always get to see

484
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 2: our lead character eventually die. It's kind of like Barbie

485
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 2: doesn't have to have a bathroom in her dream house,

486
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 2: that sort of thing. We should also note that while

487
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 2: the terms fate and destiny are often used interchangeably, and

488
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 2: we may use them interchangeably here in this episode a

489
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 2: little bit, they are often considered different concepts historically. So

490
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 2: fate is passive, it's the course in life that was

491
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 2: predetermined for you. Destiny, however, is active and must be achieved.

492
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 2: So one becomes resigned to one's fate, while one sets

493
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 2: out after their destiny. So death in and of itself

494
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 2: not much of a destiny, but a key aspect of

495
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: any given fate. Now, we could do a whole series

496
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: of course on fate and destiny, as well as huge

497
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: tactics as well for human contemplation, but we are talking

498
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 2: about death, the anthropomorphic personification of death, and this ties

499
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: in nicely with some very old concepts, concepts that are

500
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 2: in fact again based on a metaphor of human technology,

501
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 2: thread spun from a spindle, and this metaphor can be

502
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: found in pretty much all Indo European cultures. The technology

503
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: involved here dates back to Neolithic times at least. The

504
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 2: spindle enables one to transform a seemingly chaotic mass of

505
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: fibers into a purposeful thread. So out of what seems

506
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 2: like chaos comes order. We get purpose and direction. Out

507
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 2: of the direction lists, we get a narrowing of focus.

508
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 2: We get a thread, a line with a beginning and

509
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 2: an end. So how could we not see ourselves and

510
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: our world in this process, in this technology.

511
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 3: That is true. I was also thinking about, speaking of

512
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 3: technological metaphors, the way that thread as a metaphor kind

513
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 3: of flattens our existence. Like, you know, thread, like any

514
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 3: object really existing in space is a three dimensional object,

515
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 3: but in a metaphorical sense, it is a one dimensional object.

516
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 3: Like the metaphor of thread is something that only has lef,

517
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 3: that doesn't even have width, you know, not to speak

518
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 3: of depth. And yeah, I wonder how that also feeds

519
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 3: into the use of thread as a metaphor for human life.

520
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 3: It sort of reduces everything to one factor.

521
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's almost it almost you can almost imagine

522
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 2: a situation where we see other lives as thread. I mean,

523
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 2: I feel like I do this all the time, you know,

524
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 2: I look back on an actor and an older film,

525
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: and what do I want to know? I want to

526
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 2: know like the basic thread of everything. I want to

527
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: know the timeline, you know, that's just part of our

528
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 2: linear existence. And then how do we experience ourselves? Well,

529
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 2: sometimes I feel like we do think of ourselves as threads,

530
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: and we think of ourselves as a linear story. But

531
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: we also, I think, experience ourselves as just that mass

532
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: of chaotic fiber. So yeah, interesting to think about this,

533
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: but yeah, it one can only you know, imagine how

534
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 2: these sorts of contemplations originally came together, you know, via

535
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 2: this crafting technology. And so let's go ahead and turn

536
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 2: into what it's probably, at least in the Western world,

537
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 2: the most famous example of this from Hellenistic tradition. You

538
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: want to talk about the fates, let's get in there. Yeah, okay, okay.

539
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 3: These are the Greek fates, also known as the Moirai.

540
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 3: They are three divine sisters with individual names They are

541
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 3: named Clotho, Lacasis, and Atropos, usually depicted as three women

542
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 3: who respectively spin out the thread of life, measure it

543
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 3: to size, and then cut it off. They're depicted with

544
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 3: their implements, usually for their individual jobs, so you know,

545
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 3: like with this tool theme we've talked about, they also

546
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 3: have tools. Clotho usually has a spindle, Lacsis holds sometimes

547
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 3: a measuring rod, and Atropos most famously wields a pair

548
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 3: of scissors or shears to snip the thread of life.

549
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 3: And these tools are not always consistent in some tellings.

550
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 3: For example, Lacsis has casting lots instead of a rod,

551
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 3: and that's actually there in her name. I think I

552
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 3: forget exactly, but I believe Lacsis means something like the

553
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 3: one who casts lots or something signifies her agency in

554
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 3: basically rolling the dice on what kind of life you

555
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 3: will have. She is the determiner of the length and

556
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 3: type of life. And sometimes instead of shears, Atropos has

557
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 3: a knife or in some cases a document like a

558
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 3: scroll or some other kind of document, which I think

559
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 3: signifies something like reading out your death sentence.

560
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: In any case, though, I can't help but think about

561
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: what we were talking about earlier, Like whatever you specifically

562
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: put in her hand, it does kind of change the

563
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: nature of what she's doing.

564
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, the scissors make her a little creepier. The

565
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 3: document makes her sinister in a different way, Like she's

566
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 3: the judge, you know, telling you, Okay, here's here's what

567
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 3: you got coming.

568
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's also like, hey, what can you do

569
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 2: this was I've got this decree, I've got to follow it,

570
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: you know.

571
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 3: So the three sisters together are responsible for enforcing the

572
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 3: laws of fate and destiny to make certain that the

573
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 3: lives of mortals unfold as they are preordained. And often

574
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 3: this involves, or not often, I guess always this involves

575
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 3: a fated form of death. So the fates altogether represent

576
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 3: first of all, the guaranteed finitude of life. But I

577
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 3: would say that Atropos in particular has some grim reaper

578
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 3: like qualities, because as the one who cuts the thread

579
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 3: of life with her shears, she's the one who most

580
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 3: directly seals your doom. And also, you know, kind of

581
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 3: like the reaper, she has a sharp instrument. A big

582
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 3: thing that I want to discuss about the Greek fates

583
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 3: is the most common theme of stories about them, both

584
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 3: in stories about them as goddesses and in stories about

585
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 3: fate as a principle. Is this common theme is that

586
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 3: a mortal person might find a way to temporarily escape

587
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 3: their fate or destiny, but somehow the faded outcome will

588
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 3: find a way to happen. All apparent escape hatches are

589
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 3: actually just detours and delays, which in a way is

590
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 3: literally true about death. Like, we can find ways to

591
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 3: put it off in a sense, though there are questions,

592
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 3: I guess in strictly physical terms about what that means

593
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,399
Speaker 3: to put it off. I mean, you're going to die.

594
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 3: When you're going to die, you can, compared to the

595
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 3: general population, hopefully do things that will increase your chances

596
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 3: of living longer. But you know, there's not like any

597
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 3: way you could have of knowing that, Oh I would

598
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 3: have died at this earlier time had I not done X.

599
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're obviously a number of facts involved, many of

600
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 2: which are completely out of our control.

601
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, But so we can find ways to put it off,

602
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 3: but eventually death always comes, no matter your efforts, and

603
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 3: that is what fate is like in most Greek storytelling.

604
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 3: There are tons of stories in Greek mythology that are

605
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 3: used to illustrate this principle. One example I wanted to

606
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 3: talk about is the story of the hero Melieger. You

607
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 3: know this one.

608
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's meant with this one.

609
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 3: Okay. So Melieger's parents are the king and Queen of

610
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 3: the Greek kingdom of Caledon. When Melieger is born, the

611
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 3: fates come to his mother, Althea, and they tell her

612
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 3: that her newborn son is doomed and he's going to

613
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 3: die as soon as the log currently burning in the

614
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 3: fireplace is consumed. But notice they gave her a clause

615
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 3: there there's an or a win. So Althea thinks she

616
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 3: has found a cheat code to escape the fate. She

617
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 3: extinguishes the fire, and she takes the wood out of

618
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 3: the hearth and hides it in a secret box.

619
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 2: So kind of a don't eat daddy's soul donut sort

620
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 2: of situation here.

621
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, So, yeah, it seems like she's found a workaround.

622
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 3: Mellieger grows up strong and handsome, and he eventually falls

623
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 3: in love with the fleet footed huntress Atalanta, and then,

624
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 3: after the slaying of the monstrous Caledonian boar, Mellieger gives

625
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 3: the boar's hide to his new love, to Atalanta. This

626
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 3: gift makes Mellieger's maternal uncles his mom's brothers angry because

627
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 3: they want the boar's hide for themselves and they feel

628
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 3: insulted that Mellieger is giving it to a woman instead,

629
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 3: so they try to steal it from Atalanta by force,

630
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 3: and for this Mellieger kills them, kills his uncles, So

631
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 3: now Mellieger is a kin killer, and his mother, Althea,

632
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 3: becomes torn between family loyalties. She loves her son, but

633
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 3: her son has killed her brothers, and ultimately, in an

634
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 3: act that can be interpreted multiple ways, you could think

635
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 3: of this as retaliation or punishment, or maybe even contrition

636
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 3: for her earlier attempt to cheat the fates. For whatever reason,

637
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 3: she takes the hidden log out of the chest and

638
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 3: throws it back into the fireplace, and when the wood

639
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 3: is consumed by the fire, Mellyager drops dead. So you

640
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,240
Speaker 3: thought you could avoid fate, but somehow it happened anyway.

641
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 2: Oh, this is a good one. Yeah, you know, I

642
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: had heard this one before, and I think there might

643
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 2: have been a ted ed video about it. Certainly. Once

644
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 2: you introduced the log I was like, oh, yeah, this

645
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:46,720
Speaker 2: is the one.

646
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 3: So you know, that's a common format of the fate

647
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 3: stories in Greek telling. But I was looking for more

648
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 3: stories on this theme. And there's actually a whole section

649
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,720
Speaker 3: dedicated to fatalism in this book I've got. It's William

650
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 3: Hannahson's Book of Greek and Roman folk Tales, Legends and Myths,

651
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 3: from Princeton University Press, twenty seventeen. And I thought a

652
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 3: couple of these were really interesting. So one of these

653
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 3: stories is a later tale told by the Roman author Alien,

654
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 3: and it takes place in Athens after the Peloponnesian War.

655
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 3: This was the war in the fifth century BCE where

656
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 3: Athens and its allies fought Sparta and its allies. Sparta

657
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 3: won this war and afterwards installed a new government over

658
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 3: Athens made up of Spartan controlled oligarchs who were known

659
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 3: as the Thirty Tyrants or just the thirty. And so

660
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 3: I think there may be some different versions of this story,

661
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 3: but this is the version told in this telling by

662
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 3: Alien that is recounted in this book by Hansen. So

663
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,399
Speaker 3: the story goes that the Athenian statesman Theramones has been

664
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 3: hanging out in a particular house in the city, and

665
00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: one morning he gets up, he walks out of the

666
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 3: front door of the house, and immediately afterwards the whole

667
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 3: building collapses behind him, leaving him unharmed. So if he'd

668
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 3: been inside a moment longer, he would have been crushed.

669
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 3: So people come from all around. They are astonished at

670
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 3: his good luck. But while all the neighbors are really

671
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 3: happy for him, Theremines himself gives a more cautious response.

672
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 3: He says, zeus, for what occasion have you preserved me?

673
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 3: And then right after that alien narrates quote. Not long afterward,

674
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 3: he was put to death by the thirty condemned to

675
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 3: drink himlock some notes of final destination here. So the

676
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 3: idea is, after one incredibly lucky escape from death, you're

677
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 3: kind of in debt to the fates, and your account

678
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 3: will soon be settled by other means. In the Greek context,

679
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 3: I think it's also significant that the death from a

680
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 3: collapsing house, the death that Theram these escapes here, would

681
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 3: be a relatively quick and neutral death in terms of honor.

682
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,720
Speaker 3: So he's spared that relatively quick and neutral death, only

683
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 3: too soon after be condemned to a much nastier and

684
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,720
Speaker 3: more humiliating end where he's you know, so he misses

685
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 3: out on being instantly taken by an act of the

686
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 3: gods and instead gets wiped out in a reign of

687
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,280
Speaker 3: terror by his victorious enemies.

688
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,919
Speaker 2: I mean, still could have been worse, but but yeah,

689
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 2: I got your meaning.

690
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 3: And note that there's no personification of the fates in

691
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 3: these stories. They didn't always have to be personified. That

692
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,959
Speaker 3: the principle of fatalism and the cosmic balance comes through.

693
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 3: Another awesome story that Hanson includes in this book is

694
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 3: from the Greek historian Herodotus, and this one is called

695
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 3: the Last Days of mike Karenos. Mike Arnos is the

696
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 3: Greek name of the Old Kingdom Egyptian pharaoh Mencora. So

697
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 3: this story is interesting because it is the closest anybody

698
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 3: seems to get to escaping their fate in the stories

699
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 3: I was reading, but only in a way that's questionable

700
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:15,439
Speaker 3: as an actor. So here's how Herodotus tells it. So it's

701
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 3: like the pharaoh mike Karenos gets an oracle from a

702
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 3: city called Bhutto that he will only live for six

703
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,280
Speaker 3: more years and will die in the seventh year. Hence,

704
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 3: he does not like hearing this, obviously, and he sends

705
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 3: a message back to the oracle saying, this is not fair.

706
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 3: You know, my father and my uncle who ruled before me,

707
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 3: they both lived to a ripe old age, and they

708
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 3: were constantly doing things to anger the gods. They shut

709
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 3: down temples, they forgot to make sacrifices, and they also

710
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 3: did tons of murder. They're terrible guys. I, on the

711
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,879
Speaker 3: other hand, I am pious, I honor the gods. I'm

712
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 3: not a murderer. It does not make sense that the

713
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 3: gods would get give them longevity and cut my own

714
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 3: life short. And then a message comes back from the oracle,

715
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 3: this is great. Turns out, it is because you are

716
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 3: pious and righteous that your life is being snuffed out early,

717
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:19,320
Speaker 3: because you are refusing to fulfill your evil destiny. Whoa see.

718
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 3: It turns out that before your father was king, before

719
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 3: your father and uncle were king, it was faded that

720
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 3: Egypt would suffer and be afflicted with horrors for one

721
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty years. Your father and uncle understood that

722
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 3: they had to fulfill their destiny and be terrible rulers,

723
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 3: so they made sure that things were really bad around here,

724
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 3: but look, we're still on the clock. Egypt is still

725
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 3: faded to suffer, and you are doing too good of

726
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 3: a job. So Herodotus says. Quote. When Mike Karenos heard

727
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 3: that his lot had already been decided, he had a

728
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 3: large number of lamps made, lighting them at night, and

729
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 3: he drank and enjoyed himself without cease, day and night.

730
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 3: He roamed the marshlands, groves, and any other pleasant place

731
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 3: of enjoyment that he came to know. He devised this

732
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 3: strategy in order to prove that the oracle was mistaken.

733
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 3: By making his nights into days, he had twelve years

734
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 3: to live instead of six.

735
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 2: Oh man, what a life hack. I feel like I've

736
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 2: heard versions of this song from influencers in recent years.

737
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 3: Not the only person to have figured out this hack. Yeah,

738
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 3: you double your lifespan by never sleeping. It's true. So

739
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 3: several interesting themes here. One is this story depicts different

740
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 3: ways that you cannot escape fate. So as with the

741
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 3: other stories, like you cannot escape your own personal fate.

742
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 3: You know, the King's death prophesied by the oracle here,

743
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 3: except maybe through changing your mindset the external events won't change.

744
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 3: You will still die, you know, for six years, because

745
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 3: that's what you're fated to do, But you can change

746
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 3: the way you think about it.

747
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I mean that's a message that still

748
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 2: resonates today.

749
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 3: Also, there's the message that the gods will kill you

750
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 3: if you try to resist or alter a broader, more

751
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 3: collective form of fate. So Egypt, it's supposed to be

752
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 3: bad here. It is destined to be a terrible place

753
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 3: for one hundred and fifty years. It's only been like

754
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 3: one hundred and six years, and you're being too nice

755
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 3: and ruling too well. So we've got to kick you

756
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 3: out so we can get a solid, incompetent tyrant in

757
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 3: here to play ball.

758
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that is a good one.

759
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 3: One more interesting note about the role of fate in

760
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 3: Greek theology. I was reading this in a brief note

761
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 3: in the Oxford Encyclopedia of World Mythology edited by David Leming,

762
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 3: and they're Leaming notes that the fates seem to present

763
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 3: a paradox or a theological problem within Greek mythology because

764
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,280
Speaker 3: they are depicted as being in some cases the ultimate

765
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 3: authority over life and death, though in other contexts Zeus

766
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 3: is said to be that authority, So who is really

767
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 3: the master of life and death? This really does present

768
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 3: a kind of could God create a boulder so big

769
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 3: he couldn't lift it problem within Greek religious thinking, And

770
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,320
Speaker 3: this is never fully resolved anywhere. There are just some

771
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 3: texts that have one answer, some texts have a different answer.

772
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 3: Some texts don't seem to have an answer to this question.

773
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 3: But it is it is who is really the master

774
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 3: of life and death? Is it Fate or is it

775
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 3: the God Supreme?

776
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 2: By having apoltheistic structure like this and all fully loaded pantheon,

777
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 2: it does seem like you allow these sorts of paradoxes

778
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 2: a little more room to breathe, right.

779
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 3: I guess so? But yeah, well, I mean you can

780
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 3: resolve some Paradoix boxes and create others. So like within

781
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 3: a polytheistic pantheon, you don't have the Odyssey problems like

782
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 3: you do with the belief in like a single God

783
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,359
Speaker 3: who is all good and all powerful. You know, why

784
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 3: do bad things happen to good people? Well, if you've

785
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 3: got polytheism, you've just got like lots of different thoughts

786
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 3: with different motives and different levels of power and there's

787
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 3: just like you know, that's just what happens. So that's

788
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 3: like a kind of problem you don't really have as

789
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 3: much with polytheism. I don't know, people probably still find

790
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 3: their way there sometimes sometimes, but seems easier to resolve

791
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 3: if there is a diversity of greater powers than humankind.

792
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, you create new problems like this, like you,

793
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 3: you come up with competing domains and there will probably

794
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 3: be conflicting beliefs about who's really in charge of what.

795
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll see some of this reflected in what we're

796
00:46:53,560 --> 00:47:06,280
Speaker 2: going to turn to next. Having talked about the fates,

797
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 2: I want to talk a little bit about what are

798
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:14,879
Speaker 2: essentially the fates of Norse mythology, the Norn. They line

799
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 2: up in a number of ways with the fates, and

800
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 2: in some tellings, to be clear, stories about the Norns

801
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 2: may have been influenced by these traditions of the fates

802
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 2: and so forth. But we're also dealing with just some

803
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 2: very ancient ideas that a number of Indo European cultures

804
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:35,280
Speaker 2: have in common. So yeah, we have the Norn again,

805
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 2: the fates of the Norse, if you will. They are

806
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 2: said to be the daughters of Dabblin, the dwarf, the

807
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 2: slumbering one, and they are also known by other names

808
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 2: such as the noor Ear and the words This is

809
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 2: apparently associated with a term that means to turn. So

810
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 2: there are three of them, much like the fates of

811
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 2: Hellenistic traditions, and we're told that they dwell at the

812
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 2: base of the Great World tree ill where they reside

813
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 2: over one of the three wells or well springs, and

814
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 2: this water is used to water the Great Tree. They're

815
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 2: sometimes described as being dressed all in gray with gray veils,

816
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 2: other times as appearing like they're covered in feathers, like

817
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 2: they're wearing feathers, as the Valkyries often are, as well

818
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 2: more on the Valkyries in a minute. They also are

819
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 2: given names. So of the Norn, we have Urdur, the

820
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 2: Norn of the past, also sometimes known as Weird like

821
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 2: w Yrd Weird. We also have Randi, the Norn of

822
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 2: the present, and then we have Skulled, the Norn of

823
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 2: the future, And there's a lot of overlap between the

824
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 2: Norn and like the Valkyries, Scold is also sometimes said

825
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 2: to be the name of a valkyrie. So they spin

826
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 2: not and weave the thread of fate for a new

827
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 2: born babe. But they also seem to serve as agents

828
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 2: of death in more of an atomon fashion, so like

829
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 2: the fates, they spin and eventually cut the thread. But again,

830
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 2: the actual technological metaphors sometimes varies with weaving accounts, perhaps

831
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 2: influenced by the Greek or some common source. Other sources

832
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 2: mentioned carving rooms on wooden slips, and then there are

833
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 2: other accounts that really focus more on the watering of

834
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 2: the roots of the world tree. But in general it

835
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 2: seems fair to sort of classify them as serving the

836
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 2: role of the fates. Here we also see the idea

837
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 2: that the norns are highly mysterious and they actually may

838
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 2: vary greatly in number. In the prose ed, for example,

839
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 2: we see the idea that in addition to the main

840
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 2: three norns, there are additional both good norns and evil norns,

841
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 2: and this is why there is such a lack of

842
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 2: uniformity in the way life unfolds for people. It's mentioned like, well,

843
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 2: why does why did this guy have such bad luck?

844
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 2: And why did he die so soon so horribly and

845
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 2: so forth, and they're like, oh, well, his life was

846
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 2: probably overseen by an evil norn, as opposed to a

847
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 2: good norn. And there's also discussion about how like norns

848
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 2: are drawn from different species as well, like that could

849
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 2: have been an elf norn or something to that effect.

850
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 3: Okay, so it was a bad norn, and not that

851
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 3: he was too nice and he was supposed to be

852
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 3: a bad friend to all his friends because he was faded.

853
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 3: Call back there, yeah, yeah, yeah.

854
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 2: Basically you can end up blaming it on a bureaucracy

855
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 2: of norns, like oh, sorry, you got a real bummer norn.

856
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 2: There happens. But the norns are closely associated with some

857
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 2: other spirits and Norse traditions. There's the philja, which are

858
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 2: like hereditary protective guardians, though apparently rarely seen except in

859
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 2: dreams or at the time of death. There are hamongjas,

860
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 2: which are like household guardian spirits, but also spirits of

861
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 2: luck and happiness. So indeed, beginning to get a sense of,

862
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 2: perhaps all told, a rather large bureaucracy of supernatural beings

863
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 2: that are attending to the direction of your life. And then,

864
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 2: of course we have the valkyries. The choosers of the

865
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 2: slain generally describe more as psychopomps than anything, you know,

866
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 2: they escort the souls of the dead onto Odin's valhalla,

867
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,720
Speaker 2: you know, the portion of the afterlife that is reserved

868
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 2: for the valiant dead, where they get to keep fighting

869
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 2: and killing each other, but then also setting down having

870
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 2: a you know, whole bunch of drinks and it's lit

871
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 2: by the light of their swords.

872
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 3: Only special certain dead go there.

873
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and you get to eat that magical boar

874
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 2: that never dies, so you know, good stuff. And of course,

875
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 2: the Valkyries are also closely associated with Hell, the name

876
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 2: given to both the underworld and the female deity that

877
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 2: rules over it, but she only rules over a portion

878
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 2: of the overall dead. Multiple gods, including Odin, oversee the

879
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 2: dead of different sorts, and there are different gatherers of

880
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 2: the dead we already discussed Ran, the ocean goddess who

881
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 2: collects the drown dead via a net and then presides

882
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 2: over them again. They are often said to be three

883
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 2: valkyries as well, with varied attributed names. Beautiful virgin female

884
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:22,760
Speaker 2: warriors sometimes closed in feathers, and their name literally means

885
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 2: she who chooses the dead. Borges in the book The

886
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 2: Book of Imaginary Beings points out that the Valkyries were

887
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 2: invoked in Anglo Saxon spells against muscle pain, and in

888
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 2: medieval Christian England the term was apparently closely associated with

889
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 2: the witch just sewing you know, you know, under you.

890
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 2: In Christian times, house and many of these older concepts

891
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 2: become simplified and vilified in their treatment. But yeah, the

892
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 2: norns here do seem to fulfill a similar purpose in

893
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 2: Norse mythology, Like they are there at the beginning, deciding

894
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 2: more or less, like how things are going to turn

895
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 2: out for you? Like is what is the course of

896
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 2: your lives? And really both of these models, you know,

897
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 2: get down to some of those deep contemplations that our

898
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 2: ancestors had throughout their lives, just as we have them

899
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 2: throughout our lives, like why is my life the way

900
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 2: it is? Why why are my days numbered like they are?

901
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 2: And asking these same questions for everyone around them, like

902
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 2: why does this seemingly awful person just live forever doing

903
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,439
Speaker 2: bad things whereas like the best of us are cut

904
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 2: down in their prime. That sort of thing. It's always

905
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 2: been a conundrum.

906
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess the gears are kind of turning in

907
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 3: my head about what difference it makes when when fade

908
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 3: is personified versus just a process or a principle of

909
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 3: the universe, because you know, obviously you can think about

910
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 3: it as an impersonal force or just a process, a

911
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 3: natural balancing that occurs. Yeah, how is it different when

912
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 3: it's in a body? Yeah? Yeah.

913
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 2: And in these cases, is particularly with the norns and

914
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 2: the fates, there is a sense that no matter how

915
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:14,280
Speaker 2: nasty those scissors are that ultimately cut the life string,

916
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 2: they're not the only individual involved in the process. Like

917
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 2: they're just responding to the way the thread was measured out,

918
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 2: and the person who measured the thread out didn't actually

919
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:29,439
Speaker 2: make the thread. So it does point seemingly in large

920
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 2: part to a more automaton view of death, and more

921
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 2: of an automaton death figure with less cruelty. But then

922
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,399
Speaker 2: also room for it is in the Norse example, room

923
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 2: for bad norns, you know, room for situations where oh,

924
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 2: well you really you really did you know, get kind

925
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 2: of a you know, a Boem sentence there with this

926
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 2: particular reading. So again we generate these different ideas out

927
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:05,320
Speaker 2: of contemplation of these largely unanswerable questions of fate and death.

928
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 2: All right, well, with that, we must draw out our

929
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,280
Speaker 2: scissors and cut the string on this episode of Stuff

930
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,359
Speaker 2: to Blow Your Mind, but we're going to be back.

931
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 2: We're going to continue this series because there's so much

932
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 2: we haven't gotten into, so it's always difficult to say

933
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 2: how many more episodes will do. I figure we'll at

934
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 2: least do one more episode on anthropomorphic personifications of death,

935
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 2: maybe one more. Ultimately, we don't know how much thread

936
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 2: has been measured out for us here with this series.

937
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 3: I guess we'll just have to find out.

938
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, before we close out. Just reminder to

939
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:41,360
Speaker 2: everyone out there that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is

940
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 2: primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes on

941
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 2: Tuesdays and Thursdays. We have short form episode on Wednesdays

942
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,280
Speaker 2: and on Fridays. That's when we set aside most serious

943
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 2: concerns to just talk about a weird movie on Weird

944
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 2: House Cinema.

945
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

946
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 3: Would like to get in touch with us with feedback

947
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:04,320
Speaker 3: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

948
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 3: for the future, or just to say hello, you can

949
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,280
Speaker 3: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

950
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 3: dot com.

951
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

952
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

953
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.