WEBVTT - When Surviving is Enough 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:35.636 Pushkin. I almost immediately fell into this trap that I've 0:00:35.636 --> 0:00:38.916 seen a lot of other people fall into, which is 0:00:38.996 --> 0:00:41.756 very natural. Right. We want to make meaning out of 0:00:41.756 --> 0:00:44.836 our experiences, but we want to do it really quickly, 0:00:45.196 --> 0:00:48.036 and we want to alcomize our suffering into some form 0:00:48.076 --> 0:00:51.276 of self improvement or a product, a literal thing that 0:00:51.316 --> 0:00:53.556 we can point that and say, look, look, I made 0:00:53.556 --> 0:00:56.836 this thing. This is what it means. That's Norah McInerney, 0:00:57.196 --> 0:01:00.556 author and hosts of the podcast Terrible Thanks for Asking. 0:01:01.316 --> 0:01:03.996 She is best known for writing and talking about how 0:01:04.036 --> 0:01:08.636 to navigate the intensely painful feeling of grief. Norah lost 0:01:08.676 --> 0:01:11.916 her husband into brain cancer in twenty fourteen, and in 0:01:11.956 --> 0:01:15.036 the months and years following his death, she found comfort 0:01:15.076 --> 0:01:19.076 and meaning and helping others navigate their grief. People started 0:01:19.076 --> 0:01:22.716 to see her as a grief dula of sorts. Over time, 0:01:22.756 --> 0:01:27.116 these responsibilities began to mount, and Norah felt overwhelmed, but 0:01:27.196 --> 0:01:29.876 she didn't think she had a way out. Are you 0:01:29.916 --> 0:01:33.956 allowed to quit anything? Winners Quarters number wino? What is 0:01:33.956 --> 0:01:35.756 I gonna win the best Widow Award? I don't know. 0:01:36.396 --> 0:01:40.436 I felt. I think in a lot of ways like 0:01:40.596 --> 0:01:47.636 I had inadvertently built this identity that had become a 0:01:47.796 --> 0:01:54.476 cage for me. On today's show, Norah McInerney breaks from 0:01:54.476 --> 0:01:59.076 her identity and changes how she grieves. I'm Maya Shunker, 0:01:59.316 --> 0:02:01.836 and this is a slight change of plans, a show 0:02:01.876 --> 0:02:04.196 about who we are and who we become in the 0:02:04.236 --> 0:02:10.196 face of the big change. When Nora was in her 0:02:10.196 --> 0:02:13.516 early thirties, she lost her husband Aaron, and her father 0:02:13.676 --> 0:02:17.196 to cancer, and she suffered a miscarriage, all within this 0:02:17.316 --> 0:02:20.836 fan of just six weeks. I wanted to have Norah 0:02:20.916 --> 0:02:22.636 on the show to talk about what it was like 0:02:22.756 --> 0:02:25.836 to navigate these losses in real time, but also what 0:02:25.996 --> 0:02:29.156 came after, not just in the months after, but in 0:02:29.196 --> 0:02:32.916 the years after. The dance of grief, how it shapes 0:02:32.956 --> 0:02:36.716 and reshapes your values, and the particular challenges that come 0:02:36.716 --> 0:02:40.676 along with the label widow. We started our conversation with 0:02:40.756 --> 0:02:44.116 Nora recalling the day when everything changed for her and 0:02:44.196 --> 0:02:49.116 her then boyfriend Aaron. The year is twenty eleven, and 0:02:49.316 --> 0:02:52.476 it is such a simpler time, Maya. We're not I 0:02:52.676 --> 0:02:55.476 messaging on her computers, yet we're still on g chat, 0:02:55.516 --> 0:02:57.676 and we're on g chat all day. And I've been 0:02:57.796 --> 0:02:59.796 dating this guy for a year and all we do. 0:02:59.876 --> 0:03:02.356 We go to our respective jobs at ad agencies. We 0:03:02.476 --> 0:03:05.396 log on and we chat all day. We're sending each 0:03:05.396 --> 0:03:08.796 other links. I have just secretly moved into his house 0:03:09.316 --> 0:03:11.636 that should not be described as a house. It was 0:03:11.676 --> 0:03:17.036 a structure. I've secretly moved in with him because I'm 0:03:17.076 --> 0:03:20.036 not a practicing Catholic. But old habits die hard. There's 0:03:20.076 --> 0:03:22.716 no reason for my parents to know where exactly I live. 0:03:23.316 --> 0:03:30.836 We are planning our first Halloween together as an official couple. 0:03:30.956 --> 0:03:34.556 We're going to pass out candy together. We're playing house. Okay, 0:03:34.876 --> 0:03:36.916 I'm chatting him. I'm like, do you want to go 0:03:36.996 --> 0:03:40.596 to and this is not suitable for home depot? Later? 0:03:40.836 --> 0:03:43.396 You want to go home depot later? He never replies. 0:03:43.476 --> 0:03:45.876 I'm livid. Why is this man not replying to me? 0:03:45.996 --> 0:03:48.356 Usually his response time is like thirty seconds, bring your 0:03:48.396 --> 0:03:51.996 laptop to the meeting, keep the conversation going. He doesn't reply, 0:03:52.356 --> 0:03:55.436 He doesn't reply, and my phone rings and it's him. 0:03:55.476 --> 0:03:57.956 I'm in an open office. How dare you call me 0:03:58.116 --> 0:04:01.196 and exposed to my boss how little work I am doing? 0:04:01.636 --> 0:04:05.156 But it's not him, it is his coworker and his 0:04:05.276 --> 0:04:07.676 co worker is calling from Aaron's phone. And he wants 0:04:07.676 --> 0:04:10.716 to know if Aaron has ever had had a seizure before. 0:04:11.116 --> 0:04:13.956 Oh my god. And so I went to the hospital 0:04:14.596 --> 0:04:19.996 immediately where the ambulance was taking Aaron. And we find 0:04:19.996 --> 0:04:23.916 out that Aaron cannot go home to pass out candy 0:04:23.996 --> 0:04:26.476 and Halloween because Aaron is going to need a brain 0:04:26.516 --> 0:04:32.276 surgery because he has a brain tumor. And he has 0:04:32.396 --> 0:04:35.716 three questions that I remember, and one is how will 0:04:35.716 --> 0:04:39.996 we pay for this? Because yay America. Two he's like, 0:04:41.996 --> 0:04:44.556 I really don't want to die. I was like, oh, 0:04:44.596 --> 0:04:47.436 you're not going to die, dude, No way, no, no way, 0:04:47.716 --> 0:04:50.316 no no. No. Other people die, but we are not 0:04:50.476 --> 0:04:53.356 other people, that is for sure, not you. And then 0:04:53.396 --> 0:04:56.236 he said you can't marry me. We can't get married 0:04:56.636 --> 0:04:58.636 because I'm going to be sick. And I was like 0:04:59.076 --> 0:05:02.916 I am going to marry you, Like, oh, I'm marrying you. 0:05:03.036 --> 0:05:05.356 I'm marrying you the minute you get out of this hospital. 0:05:05.876 --> 0:05:08.276 Like I don't even know if it was a proposal 0:05:08.396 --> 0:05:12.956 so much as I just announced it. We are getting married. 0:05:13.116 --> 0:05:16.956 We are going to get married. Yeah. What was it 0:05:17.036 --> 0:05:20.436 like when you found out together that it was actually 0:05:20.556 --> 0:05:25.996 terminal brain cancer. That's just where everything changed. The brain 0:05:26.036 --> 0:05:31.156 tumor was brain cancer, and it was glioblastoma, which anytime 0:05:31.156 --> 0:05:33.036 I say that word out in public, there's like an 0:05:33.076 --> 0:05:37.156 audible oh right, right, because if you don't know the word, 0:05:37.516 --> 0:05:39.356 you don't know the word. But if you know the word, 0:05:39.396 --> 0:05:45.596 you know that it's an incurable, horrifying, aggressive, aggressive, and 0:05:45.836 --> 0:05:50.356 violent form of brain cancer. We said to the doctor's 0:05:50.436 --> 0:05:52.156 right away, because we had discussed this a little bit 0:05:52.236 --> 0:05:56.836 beforehand walking in, we were like, no matter what, like, 0:05:56.956 --> 0:05:58.756 what do you want out of this? And he was like, 0:05:58.876 --> 0:06:01.436 I don't ever want to hear how much time I 0:06:01.516 --> 0:06:05.636 have left. So before the doctor even talked, I was 0:06:05.716 --> 0:06:07.756 just in it and I was like, listen here, Bud, 0:06:09.236 --> 0:06:12.076 no point are you going to tell this man how 0:06:12.156 --> 0:06:15.036 much time he has left to live, like at all, 0:06:15.956 --> 0:06:19.796 even if you think he's like literally dying that moment, No, no, 0:06:19.876 --> 0:06:23.316 he's not. Aaron did not want to become a cancer person. 0:06:23.796 --> 0:06:28.396 He did not want that to be his identity. He 0:06:28.436 --> 0:06:31.156 wanted it to take up the amount of time it required, 0:06:31.676 --> 0:06:36.036 and absolutely no more. And I was like, fine, you're 0:06:36.116 --> 0:06:40.636 the boss, and I will make sure I'm executing your vision. 0:06:42.356 --> 0:06:44.476 Nor you really walk the walk on that one, because 0:06:44.516 --> 0:06:48.596 even after finding out about the terminal cancer diagnosis. You 0:06:48.676 --> 0:06:51.716 and Aaron have a child together, you get married, and 0:06:51.716 --> 0:06:55.436 you also have a child. So in that appointment we asked, okay, 0:06:55.436 --> 0:06:57.996 so what about kids? And I remember the nurse practitioner 0:06:58.076 --> 0:07:01.236 looking at me like what about him? Baby? Yeah, like 0:07:01.916 --> 0:07:06.876 what about them? So we decided to try, and a 0:07:06.996 --> 0:07:10.396 year later we had Ralph. And a year later Aaron's 0:07:10.396 --> 0:07:14.556 brain tumor was back. And that is when I knew, knew. 0:07:15.236 --> 0:07:19.476 Oh wow, this man gave me something. I think he 0:07:19.596 --> 0:07:24.756 knew more than I did, Like he signed up to 0:07:25.396 --> 0:07:28.916 be a parent knowing that he wouldn't be there for 0:07:29.036 --> 0:07:34.276 Ralph's whole life. And when I look at our son, 0:07:35.116 --> 0:07:39.036 I think like, oh, I don't know if I would 0:07:39.036 --> 0:07:41.556 be strong enough to do that, to know that I 0:07:41.556 --> 0:07:48.396 wouldn't be there. And he was such a wonderful, fun 0:07:48.756 --> 0:07:51.916 dad for the twenty two months that he was there. 0:07:52.436 --> 0:07:55.676 You know, he woke up with the baby, he did, 0:07:57.076 --> 0:08:00.996 he did everything. He was just so fun and present 0:08:01.916 --> 0:08:05.716 and wonderful. And I am so glad he got that, 0:08:05.876 --> 0:08:11.196 even though it wasn't and would never be enough for 0:08:11.436 --> 0:08:15.556 Aaron or for Ralph. So Aaron was able to be 0:08:15.796 --> 0:08:19.316 Ralph's dad for twenty two months, and he ended up 0:08:19.356 --> 0:08:25.636 dying on November fourteen. And you know, you can intellectualize 0:08:25.636 --> 0:08:27.836 what it'll be like to lose someone, and then when 0:08:27.836 --> 0:08:32.596 you actually have the emotional experience unfold in real time, 0:08:32.676 --> 0:08:36.276 you can sometimes surprise yourself with the reactions you're having 0:08:36.356 --> 0:08:39.036 or the reflections you're having. And I'm just wondering what 0:08:39.196 --> 0:08:43.356 shifted for you. You know, my dad had just died too, 0:08:44.196 --> 0:08:50.756 and I had this sense of closeness with my siblings 0:08:50.916 --> 0:08:57.396 and my mom and Ralph, and like my world seemed very, 0:08:57.556 --> 0:09:00.756 very sharply in focus, and it's like, these are the 0:09:00.836 --> 0:09:03.676 people who matter. I remember driving to you my dad's 0:09:03.676 --> 0:09:06.196 funeral with my siblings. We were all together, and I 0:09:06.236 --> 0:09:08.396 was like, we have to stay all together all the 0:09:08.476 --> 0:09:11.116 time for the rest of our lives. We should all 0:09:11.156 --> 0:09:13.756 live together. We should be traveling everywhere in a single 0:09:13.796 --> 0:09:15.956 bus so that if there's an accident, we all go together. 0:09:16.356 --> 0:09:18.916 Like it was just so I was like, this is it, 0:09:19.236 --> 0:09:22.316 this is it. It's all of us right here. Oh gosh, 0:09:22.316 --> 0:09:25.996 I can so resonate with that. Yeah. Roughly a month 0:09:26.036 --> 0:09:29.556 after Aaron dies, you and your friend who lost her 0:09:29.636 --> 0:09:34.476 husband informally start a group called the Hot Young Widows Club, 0:09:35.316 --> 0:09:38.396 props to an extremely charming name. And I'm wondering if 0:09:38.396 --> 0:09:42.476 you can tell me more about the group and what 0:09:42.596 --> 0:09:45.596 you were hoping to achieve with it. So here's the 0:09:45.676 --> 0:09:50.156 thing I wouldn't say. Almost immediately, but very quickly, after 0:09:50.196 --> 0:09:56.116 Aaron died, I had I was buried in. It was 0:09:56.156 --> 0:10:00.076 like wearing a weighted vest at the dentist all day, 0:10:00.676 --> 0:10:04.956 this sense of guilt that Aaron was dead and I 0:10:05.036 --> 0:10:08.156 was alive, and he was objectively better than me in 0:10:08.236 --> 0:10:13.396 every way. Everyone loved Aaron. He made everyone feel like 0:10:13.476 --> 0:10:15.956 they belonged at the party. The party could not have started. 0:10:16.276 --> 0:10:20.196 Maya's here. Now open up the physical circle, physically, invite 0:10:20.196 --> 0:10:23.396 you into the conversation, hold your hands, make you dance? 0:10:23.716 --> 0:10:26.036 Can I get you a drink? Like just he had 0:10:26.116 --> 0:10:29.796 that presence to him for everybody. At his funeral, a 0:10:29.836 --> 0:10:31.596 guy came up to me and he said, high school 0:10:31.636 --> 0:10:33.916 was so hard, it was hell. And every day Aaron 0:10:33.996 --> 0:10:36.236 made sure I had somewhere to sit at lunch, like 0:10:36.676 --> 0:10:41.716 that kind of person, And I almost immediately fell into 0:10:41.836 --> 0:10:45.076 this trap that I've seen a lot of other people 0:10:45.876 --> 0:10:48.476 fall into, which is very natural right. We want to 0:10:48.516 --> 0:10:51.916 make meaning out of our experiences, but we want to 0:10:51.916 --> 0:10:54.676 do it really quickly, and we want to alcomize our 0:10:54.716 --> 0:10:57.916 suffering into some form of self improvement or a product, 0:10:57.956 --> 0:11:01.236 a literal thing that we can point out and say, look, look, 0:11:01.236 --> 0:11:03.636 I made this thing. This is what it means. And 0:11:04.436 --> 0:11:07.756 there was a woman named Moe in northeast Minneapolis where 0:11:07.756 --> 0:11:10.556 I lived, and her husband had also died. He died 0:11:10.596 --> 0:11:13.676 by suicide. I'd never met her. I did not want 0:11:13.716 --> 0:11:16.116 to meet her. I did not want a widow friend. 0:11:16.116 --> 0:11:18.156 Aaron didn't want to be a cancer person. I didn't 0:11:18.156 --> 0:11:19.716 want to be a widow. Yeah, I didn't want to 0:11:19.716 --> 0:11:22.636 be a dead husband person. But we went to the 0:11:22.636 --> 0:11:24.916 same coffee shop, and the coffee shop ladies were not 0:11:24.916 --> 0:11:27.556 going to let it rest. So I had to meet 0:11:27.596 --> 0:11:32.356 Mo and I did, And I will remember forever again 0:11:32.396 --> 0:11:34.516 just a month after my husband has died, like three 0:11:34.556 --> 0:11:37.916 months after her husband has died, like lock eyes on 0:11:37.956 --> 0:11:41.636 a winter sidewalk in Minneapolis, and we like run towards 0:11:41.636 --> 0:11:45.156 each other. Wow, we run to each other and we're 0:11:45.196 --> 0:11:49.836 like holding each other and we're crying, and we're immediately 0:11:49.956 --> 0:11:51.396 just like, tell me about your kid, tell me about 0:11:51.436 --> 0:11:52.956 your kid, Tell me about your husband, Tell me about 0:11:52.956 --> 0:11:57.556 your husband. We're saying to each other these horrible things 0:11:57.556 --> 0:11:59.756 that no one else wants to hear, like do you 0:11:59.796 --> 0:12:06.556 have flashbacks? Do you see a dead body? Like? Oh, 0:12:06.556 --> 0:12:09.836 do you sleep at night? I don't sleep. Have you 0:12:09.836 --> 0:12:12.116 been able to cancel his cell phone? No? Me neither. 0:12:13.276 --> 0:12:16.356 What are you doing with the student loans? Not just 0:12:16.516 --> 0:12:23.036 admin stuff, but just these like are you lonely? What 0:12:23.036 --> 0:12:29.436 are we going to do with these boys? Just the 0:12:29.556 --> 0:12:34.716 act of having someone who understands where you are, even 0:12:34.716 --> 0:12:38.276 if they didn't get there the same way, was so 0:12:38.316 --> 0:12:41.876 immediately obvious that I could not believe it took me 0:12:41.956 --> 0:12:45.356 that long to meet her. And we called ourselves the 0:12:45.436 --> 0:12:48.836 Hot Young Widows Club, and we would just meet up 0:12:49.116 --> 0:12:51.636 with our boys, because you don't have a husband to 0:12:51.636 --> 0:12:55.076 watch him anymore. And we'd meet up, we'd have dinner, 0:12:55.156 --> 0:12:58.516 we'd have breakfast, and then you know, someone else's husband 0:12:58.556 --> 0:13:01.756 died and they got looped in with us. Someone sends 0:13:01.756 --> 0:13:03.876 me a text message, my friend's husband just died. Can 0:13:03.916 --> 0:13:07.836 she talk to you? Yeah? Yeah. My friend's cousin's mailman's 0:13:07.916 --> 0:13:10.916 husband just died. Can they meet up with you? Yeah? 0:13:10.916 --> 0:13:14.876 And so it's not just me and mow anymore. It's 0:13:15.036 --> 0:13:17.276 a bunch of widows in Minneapolis, and sometimes we have 0:13:17.316 --> 0:13:19.556 brunch and sometimes we meet up for drinks, and sometimes 0:13:19.556 --> 0:13:23.076 we're just texting on a group chat. And then there 0:13:23.076 --> 0:13:26.036 are more people, and then there are more people, and 0:13:26.076 --> 0:13:28.116 then we can't all fit in a living room, and 0:13:28.716 --> 0:13:30.716 you know, can it be a Facebook group? And can 0:13:30.716 --> 0:13:33.396 my friend join even though you know they live in 0:13:33.436 --> 0:13:37.276 Montana or Wisconsin or Florida, Yeah, yeah, sure, sure sure, 0:13:37.676 --> 0:13:42.356 And it just keeps growing and then it's thousands of people. 0:13:42.756 --> 0:13:49.716 It's so wonderful, Maya. In so many ways. We had 0:13:49.756 --> 0:13:53.396 more than one Christmas where the widows who had kids 0:13:53.516 --> 0:13:57.316 who couldn't afford Christmas presents, everybody pulled their money and 0:13:57.316 --> 0:13:58.916 sent them a bunch of gift cards so they could 0:13:58.916 --> 0:14:02.356 buy their kids Christmas presents. It's beautiful. You know, people 0:14:02.556 --> 0:14:06.196 met up for vacations and made best friends. There was 0:14:06.236 --> 0:14:09.556 always someone online, so when you woke up in the 0:14:09.596 --> 0:14:14.516 middle of the night and needed someone, there would be 0:14:14.556 --> 0:14:19.076 someone there when you posted, and you could say it's 0:14:19.116 --> 0:14:23.436 something like I am having wild sex dreams right now, 0:14:23.636 --> 0:14:25.356 like I think I just need to hook up with someone. 0:14:25.516 --> 0:14:28.756 Is that okay, and a chorus of other voices would 0:14:28.756 --> 0:14:31.116 be like, yes, you were still alive, it's okay. That 0:14:31.236 --> 0:14:33.836 is like a biological mean, that's okay. It does not 0:14:33.956 --> 0:14:36.276 mean you don't love your husband or your wife or 0:14:36.276 --> 0:14:40.836 your boyfriend. And there was just always somebody there who 0:14:40.876 --> 0:14:45.916 could relate to whatever crazy thing you were feeling, which 0:14:45.996 --> 0:14:52.716 was so so validating. You know, you're thinking, I survived Aaron, 0:14:52.996 --> 0:14:54.676 and Aaron's supposed to be here, and I need to 0:14:54.716 --> 0:14:57.916 live this incredibly meaningful life. And I find myself in 0:14:57.956 --> 0:15:02.116 this situation bringing comfort to this other person. Did it 0:15:02.156 --> 0:15:04.956 maybe release some of the burden that you felt. I 0:15:04.996 --> 0:15:06.916 think I was seeking a way to kind of like 0:15:07.476 --> 0:15:10.796 balance the scales and also to prove to myself that 0:15:10.876 --> 0:15:15.156 I deserved to be alive and like be okay, And 0:15:15.196 --> 0:15:18.556 so anything somebody asked me to do, I would do. 0:15:19.236 --> 0:15:22.036 You know, in the idea of like there's so many 0:15:23.076 --> 0:15:26.196 five thousand, three thousand, two thousand, one thousand people, they're 0:15:26.196 --> 0:15:27.716 not all going to get along, yeah, you know what 0:15:27.756 --> 0:15:29.796 I mean, Like they're not going to and they're all 0:15:29.916 --> 0:15:34.316 we're all deeply hurt, many of us incredibly traumatized. It 0:15:34.396 --> 0:15:36.276 took me a long time to go to therapy after 0:15:36.316 --> 0:15:40.476 Aaron died. So I'm also dealing with my own undiagnosed 0:15:40.476 --> 0:15:46.596 PTSD and depression and untreated anxiety and trying to manage 0:15:46.796 --> 0:15:51.356 interpersonal conflict. Or this person said this about you know, 0:15:51.716 --> 0:15:54.316 this kind of disease, and I found it offensive. And 0:15:54.596 --> 0:15:56.796 when do we kick someone out? And when do we? 0:15:56.916 --> 0:15:59.156 You know, I'm like, I don't know how am I 0:15:59.196 --> 0:16:02.076 in charge? Yeah? Yeah, Yeah, it seems like you were. 0:16:02.156 --> 0:16:06.556 You were thrust into a group that you never thought 0:16:06.636 --> 0:16:09.676 you would be leading, right, I mean, yeah, in many ways, 0:16:09.756 --> 0:16:13.276 you were so interesting or it's like you were you 0:16:13.276 --> 0:16:15.516 were acting as a grief dula for so many people, 0:16:15.556 --> 0:16:17.636 even though you're not trained as a great dula. Hell no, 0:16:17.756 --> 0:16:19.916 I'm not. No, But then what I'm also hearing from 0:16:19.916 --> 0:16:23.476 you is you were actually serving as like a grief 0:16:23.996 --> 0:16:27.996 group dula, because now you're managing the interpersonal dynamics of 0:16:28.036 --> 0:16:31.036 everybody who's navigating the worst moments of their lives, and 0:16:31.036 --> 0:16:32.916 I were trying to figure out how they can interact 0:16:32.956 --> 0:16:37.436 with each other more peacefully. Yeah, that is an incredible responsibility. 0:16:37.996 --> 0:16:41.796 You know. You mentioned it's like I was sort of 0:16:41.796 --> 0:16:44.876 thrust into this position and even when I thought like, 0:16:45.236 --> 0:16:47.636 this shouldn't be me, I didn't say anything. I did 0:16:47.636 --> 0:16:50.036 not know that it was okay for me to say, 0:16:50.116 --> 0:16:52.396 like I shouldn't be the one doing this, Like I 0:16:52.396 --> 0:16:56.036 should not be in charge. Someone asked me to do it, 0:16:56.156 --> 0:16:57.636 or they're asking me to do it. So I guess 0:16:57.636 --> 0:17:00.716 I just have to say yes. I guess I just 0:17:00.756 --> 0:17:03.276 have to keep doing it. And by the way, the 0:17:03.356 --> 0:17:07.276 Hot Young Widows Club grew alongside all these sort of 0:17:07.316 --> 0:17:11.316 other parts of my life. So I ended up falling 0:17:11.316 --> 0:17:15.236 in love again about a year after Aaron died, and 0:17:16.116 --> 0:17:21.516 getting married sometime after that, and getting pregnant and having 0:17:21.556 --> 0:17:26.716 a baby and blending this family of four kids Matthews, 0:17:26.716 --> 0:17:31.196 two kids, Ralph, and there's a newborn baby. And I 0:17:31.276 --> 0:17:36.756 start this podcast Terrible thanks for asking. I put together 0:17:37.076 --> 0:17:42.396 a ted talk about grief. I start this nonprofit that 0:17:42.596 --> 0:17:45.396 does what happened for me and Aaron, like gives people 0:17:45.436 --> 0:17:49.076 money when their lives are falling apart. And the Hot 0:17:49.116 --> 0:17:54.756 Young Widows Club is this big, big part of my life. 0:17:54.756 --> 0:17:58.636 This is, in a lot of way is kind of 0:17:58.636 --> 0:18:03.996 the center of it. Walk me through a sample day 0:18:04.276 --> 0:18:08.556 in the life of grief. Dula Nora, Yeah, Mo and 0:18:08.596 --> 0:18:12.116 I are trying to find ways for people to connect 0:18:12.356 --> 0:18:14.956 when it's online or when it's in person, and where, 0:18:15.276 --> 0:18:20.436 you know, coordinating meetups in Minneapolis that are regularly scheduled. 0:18:20.556 --> 0:18:25.756 And I constantly, constantly, constantly have Facebook open on my 0:18:25.876 --> 0:18:30.036 phone so if somebody tags me and they need something, 0:18:30.116 --> 0:18:32.916 they need anything, that I can see it and I 0:18:32.956 --> 0:18:36.556 can respond to them. We're coordinating like the gift car 0:18:36.676 --> 0:18:40.996 drives for people around the holidays or all year round, 0:18:41.196 --> 0:18:45.556 for people who just need necessities, need money for groceries, 0:18:45.636 --> 0:18:50.796 need money for gas. We're doing FaceTime meetups so that 0:18:50.916 --> 0:18:55.316 you know, anybody who's alone at the holidays isn't really alone. 0:18:55.756 --> 0:19:00.316 I was constantly drinking from this fire hose of other 0:19:00.356 --> 0:19:03.436 people's very real suffering that I am built to care 0:19:03.476 --> 0:19:07.436 about to my own detriment. You know, like if somebody 0:19:07.476 --> 0:19:09.556 texted me and they needed me, I would step away 0:19:09.596 --> 0:19:12.036 from my dinner table and answer them. I would take 0:19:12.036 --> 0:19:14.956 a FaceTime call. I would do my best to respond 0:19:14.996 --> 0:19:19.276 to things like as immediately as possible, because I remembered 0:19:19.316 --> 0:19:24.636 how absolutely lonely, especially those early days were, and I 0:19:24.676 --> 0:19:26.596 felt like, well, you know, I've got this new husband, 0:19:26.596 --> 0:19:28.756 I got these kids, like look at all that I have, 0:19:28.876 --> 0:19:31.196 Like I should be available, right, it should be available 0:19:32.276 --> 0:19:35.076 for all these people, like to the people that need me. 0:19:35.516 --> 0:19:38.836 And no, I was not trained, No, I was not qualified. 0:19:38.916 --> 0:19:44.116 No I have no sort of like protective measures between me, 0:19:44.636 --> 0:19:48.996 like no protective boundaries between me and these people that 0:19:49.076 --> 0:19:52.876 I care so much about. None. And you know, you mentioned, 0:19:52.916 --> 0:19:56.396 Nora that other parts of your life were growing alongside 0:19:56.756 --> 0:19:59.956 this support group, and one of those big things that 0:20:00.036 --> 0:20:03.836 was growing was your family. Right. You're you're parenting four children, Yeah, 0:20:03.876 --> 0:20:05.676 one of whom you share with your new husband. You 0:20:05.676 --> 0:20:08.716 are navigating a new marriage, And I just wonder, you know, 0:20:09.356 --> 0:20:11.916 they're of course trade offs with your time. Right, So 0:20:11.956 --> 0:20:13.916 you're leaving the dinner table, that means you're not having 0:20:13.956 --> 0:20:18.396 a moment with Ralph. Right, you do a FaceTime call 0:20:18.476 --> 0:20:20.356 with someone on Christmas Eve, that means you're not actually 0:20:20.396 --> 0:20:23.716 connecting with your husband. And I just wonder whether, in 0:20:23.756 --> 0:20:26.196 the throes of all of that, did you ever take 0:20:26.196 --> 0:20:32.436 a step back and question whether you were doing too much? Yes? 0:20:32.756 --> 0:20:36.756 And no, because I would think, like, yeah, I can't 0:20:36.796 --> 0:20:40.196 stop doing it, you know, like, I mean, what's the 0:20:40.236 --> 0:20:42.916 point I'm knowing it's too much? But why couldn't you 0:20:42.916 --> 0:20:45.516 stop doing it? I don't know why I couldn't do it. 0:20:45.596 --> 0:20:50.276 I couldn't stop doing it because are you allowed to 0:20:50.356 --> 0:20:53.596 quit anything? Winners never quit, Quitters never win, you know, 0:20:53.836 --> 0:20:57.596 like you what was I gonna win the Best Widow Award? 0:20:57.636 --> 0:21:01.516 I don't know. I felt like I don't know. I 0:21:01.676 --> 0:21:06.356 felt in a lot of ways like I had inadvertently 0:21:06.476 --> 0:21:13.156 built this identity that had become a cage for me. 0:21:13.916 --> 0:21:17.236 But I was so afraid. I was so afraid of 0:21:17.276 --> 0:21:20.276 not doing the Hot Young Widows Club anymore. But every 0:21:20.276 --> 0:21:24.076 time I thought about not doing it anymore, I felt 0:21:24.116 --> 0:21:29.676 so relieved. I felt so relieved. I felt so relieved, 0:21:33.156 --> 0:21:36.876 and I just did not know how to do that. 0:21:37.036 --> 0:21:38.596 I didn't know how to do that. I didn't know 0:21:38.636 --> 0:21:44.316 how to not do things anymore. We'll be back in 0:21:44.356 --> 0:21:58.836 a moment with a slight change of plans. Or you mentioned, 0:21:58.836 --> 0:22:01.916 you know you didn't know how to quit this group? 0:22:02.156 --> 0:22:04.556 Yeah right, you said every time you fantasized about it, 0:22:05.556 --> 0:22:09.356 you felt profound relief. But it was just unclear how 0:22:09.356 --> 0:22:11.756 you could ever go from point A to point B. Yeah, 0:22:11.796 --> 0:22:15.596 and then there's this one day that forces you to 0:22:15.596 --> 0:22:21.556 go there. Yeah, where you realize that something has to change. Yeah, 0:22:21.596 --> 0:22:26.716 it's winter in Arizona, which is the most beautiful season 0:22:26.756 --> 0:22:31.316 because it looks like summer anywhere else. And we had 0:22:31.596 --> 0:22:35.156 friends visiting us from Minnesota. And these friends have five kids, 0:22:35.636 --> 0:22:38.236 and so we're all going to go on this big hike, 0:22:38.476 --> 0:22:42.196 you know, the dads the moms, like seven kids and 0:22:42.756 --> 0:22:46.316 three cars and it's so sweet and so cute, and 0:22:46.636 --> 0:22:50.436 all our little kids are like collecting rocks and identifying 0:22:50.756 --> 0:22:53.436 plant life. And we're all coming back to our house 0:22:53.476 --> 0:22:55.756 and the dads are going to grill and the kids 0:22:55.756 --> 0:22:58.316 are going to play and the moms are going to talk, 0:22:59.076 --> 0:23:01.756 and it's so wonderful. And we pull up to our 0:23:01.796 --> 0:23:04.876 house and everyone tumbles out of these cars and everyone 0:23:04.956 --> 0:23:07.036 switched seats. You know, I've got some of her kids, 0:23:07.036 --> 0:23:09.676 she's got some of my kids. And we all inside 0:23:09.676 --> 0:23:12.756 and the dad's do grill and the moms do talk 0:23:12.796 --> 0:23:15.996 and the kids do play. And I'm talking to my 0:23:16.076 --> 0:23:18.796 friend and I tell her, because I am in my 0:23:18.876 --> 0:23:21.756 late thirties, I'm like, you got to see this tree. Okay, 0:23:21.836 --> 0:23:23.556 you got to see this tree. If you drew a 0:23:23.596 --> 0:23:26.476 tree as a kid, this is that tree. One trunk, 0:23:26.596 --> 0:23:30.076 two big branches, big canopy, the most gorgeous tree. We 0:23:30.156 --> 0:23:34.116 walk outside to see this tree, and she's, honestly, she's 0:23:34.156 --> 0:23:36.116 as impressed as I wanted her to be. She's like, 0:23:36.156 --> 0:23:39.756 that's a hell of a tree. And we hear and 0:23:40.876 --> 0:23:47.396 I look over and there's this little hand beating against 0:23:47.996 --> 0:23:53.676 the tinted window of my car. And I'm immediately so 0:23:53.756 --> 0:23:59.316 mad because my then four year old was in the 0:23:59.316 --> 0:24:01.236 backseat of the car, and he knows better. You don't 0:24:01.236 --> 0:24:03.276 play in a car. You don't play in a car. 0:24:03.756 --> 0:24:08.196 And I take three quick steps across the driveway and 0:24:08.236 --> 0:24:12.076 I op in that door, and he's harnessed into his 0:24:12.196 --> 0:24:15.676 car seat, and he looks at me with his giant 0:24:16.756 --> 0:24:22.716 blue saucer eyeballs, with so much relief and so much love, 0:24:22.836 --> 0:24:24.956 and he says, can I get out of the car yet? 0:24:26.636 --> 0:24:31.356 And look at my friend and we both go completely pale, 0:24:32.636 --> 0:24:37.036 and I know that she knows that I left my 0:24:37.156 --> 0:24:44.916 kid in the car. And I pick him up and 0:24:44.956 --> 0:24:47.356 he is soaking wet, and part of it is tears 0:24:47.436 --> 0:24:50.836 and part of it is sweat, and he's clinging to 0:24:50.996 --> 0:24:54.836 me like a little baby monkey, and he's immediately telling 0:24:54.836 --> 0:24:58.036 me what happened. Everybody got out of the car. Everybody 0:24:58.076 --> 0:25:00.076 went inside, and I called it for you and you 0:25:00.196 --> 0:25:05.996 didn't hear me? Did you forget it me? And it 0:25:06.076 --> 0:25:15.036 had been an hour and no one noticed, but more 0:25:15.076 --> 0:25:21.316 importantly I hadn't noticed. And I carried him inside, and 0:25:21.716 --> 0:25:25.596 my husband, Matthew is outside, and this is the baby 0:25:25.596 --> 0:25:29.316 you share with, Matthew. Yeah, this is like our little 0:25:29.836 --> 0:25:35.636