1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:35,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I almost immediately fell into this trap that I've 2 00:00:35,636 --> 00:00:38,916 Speaker 1: seen a lot of other people fall into, which is 3 00:00:38,996 --> 00:00:41,756 Speaker 1: very natural. Right. We want to make meaning out of 4 00:00:41,756 --> 00:00:44,836 Speaker 1: our experiences, but we want to do it really quickly, 5 00:00:45,196 --> 00:00:48,036 Speaker 1: and we want to alcomize our suffering into some form 6 00:00:48,076 --> 00:00:51,276 Speaker 1: of self improvement or a product, a literal thing that 7 00:00:51,316 --> 00:00:53,556 Speaker 1: we can point that and say, look, look, I made 8 00:00:53,556 --> 00:00:56,836 Speaker 1: this thing. This is what it means. That's Norah McInerney, 9 00:00:57,196 --> 00:01:00,556 Speaker 1: author and hosts of the podcast Terrible Thanks for Asking. 10 00:01:01,316 --> 00:01:03,996 Speaker 1: She is best known for writing and talking about how 11 00:01:04,036 --> 00:01:08,636 Speaker 1: to navigate the intensely painful feeling of grief. Norah lost 12 00:01:08,676 --> 00:01:11,916 Speaker 1: her husband into brain cancer in twenty fourteen, and in 13 00:01:11,956 --> 00:01:15,036 Speaker 1: the months and years following his death, she found comfort 14 00:01:15,076 --> 00:01:19,076 Speaker 1: and meaning and helping others navigate their grief. People started 15 00:01:19,076 --> 00:01:22,716 Speaker 1: to see her as a grief dula of sorts. Over time, 16 00:01:22,756 --> 00:01:27,116 Speaker 1: these responsibilities began to mount, and Norah felt overwhelmed, but 17 00:01:27,196 --> 00:01:29,876 Speaker 1: she didn't think she had a way out. Are you 18 00:01:29,916 --> 00:01:33,956 Speaker 1: allowed to quit anything? Winners Quarters number wino? What is 19 00:01:33,956 --> 00:01:35,756 Speaker 1: I gonna win the best Widow Award? I don't know. 20 00:01:36,396 --> 00:01:40,436 Speaker 1: I felt. I think in a lot of ways like 21 00:01:40,596 --> 00:01:47,636 Speaker 1: I had inadvertently built this identity that had become a 22 00:01:47,796 --> 00:01:54,476 Speaker 1: cage for me. On today's show, Norah McInerney breaks from 23 00:01:54,476 --> 00:01:59,076 Speaker 1: her identity and changes how she grieves. I'm Maya Shunker, 24 00:01:59,316 --> 00:02:01,836 Speaker 1: and this is a slight change of plans, a show 25 00:02:01,876 --> 00:02:04,196 Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the 26 00:02:04,236 --> 00:02:10,196 Speaker 1: face of the big change. When Nora was in her 27 00:02:10,196 --> 00:02:13,516 Speaker 1: early thirties, she lost her husband Aaron, and her father 28 00:02:13,676 --> 00:02:17,196 Speaker 1: to cancer, and she suffered a miscarriage, all within this 29 00:02:17,316 --> 00:02:20,836 Speaker 1: fan of just six weeks. I wanted to have Norah 30 00:02:20,916 --> 00:02:22,636 Speaker 1: on the show to talk about what it was like 31 00:02:22,756 --> 00:02:25,836 Speaker 1: to navigate these losses in real time, but also what 32 00:02:25,996 --> 00:02:29,156 Speaker 1: came after, not just in the months after, but in 33 00:02:29,196 --> 00:02:32,916 Speaker 1: the years after. The dance of grief, how it shapes 34 00:02:32,956 --> 00:02:36,716 Speaker 1: and reshapes your values, and the particular challenges that come 35 00:02:36,716 --> 00:02:40,676 Speaker 1: along with the label widow. We started our conversation with 36 00:02:40,756 --> 00:02:44,116 Speaker 1: Nora recalling the day when everything changed for her and 37 00:02:44,196 --> 00:02:49,116 Speaker 1: her then boyfriend Aaron. The year is twenty eleven, and 38 00:02:49,316 --> 00:02:52,476 Speaker 1: it is such a simpler time, Maya. We're not I 39 00:02:52,676 --> 00:02:55,476 Speaker 1: messaging on her computers, yet we're still on g chat, 40 00:02:55,516 --> 00:02:57,676 Speaker 1: and we're on g chat all day. And I've been 41 00:02:57,796 --> 00:02:59,796 Speaker 1: dating this guy for a year and all we do. 42 00:02:59,876 --> 00:03:02,356 Speaker 1: We go to our respective jobs at ad agencies. We 43 00:03:02,476 --> 00:03:05,396 Speaker 1: log on and we chat all day. We're sending each 44 00:03:05,396 --> 00:03:08,796 Speaker 1: other links. I have just secretly moved into his house 45 00:03:09,316 --> 00:03:11,636 Speaker 1: that should not be described as a house. It was 46 00:03:11,676 --> 00:03:17,036 Speaker 1: a structure. I've secretly moved in with him because I'm 47 00:03:17,076 --> 00:03:20,036 Speaker 1: not a practicing Catholic. But old habits die hard. There's 48 00:03:20,076 --> 00:03:22,716 Speaker 1: no reason for my parents to know where exactly I live. 49 00:03:23,316 --> 00:03:30,836 Speaker 1: We are planning our first Halloween together as an official couple. 50 00:03:30,956 --> 00:03:34,556 Speaker 1: We're going to pass out candy together. We're playing house. Okay, 51 00:03:34,876 --> 00:03:36,916 Speaker 1: I'm chatting him. I'm like, do you want to go 52 00:03:36,996 --> 00:03:40,596 Speaker 1: to and this is not suitable for home depot? Later? 53 00:03:40,836 --> 00:03:43,396 Speaker 1: You want to go home depot later? He never replies. 54 00:03:43,476 --> 00:03:45,876 Speaker 1: I'm livid. Why is this man not replying to me? 55 00:03:45,996 --> 00:03:48,356 Speaker 1: Usually his response time is like thirty seconds, bring your 56 00:03:48,396 --> 00:03:51,996 Speaker 1: laptop to the meeting, keep the conversation going. He doesn't reply, 57 00:03:52,356 --> 00:03:55,436 Speaker 1: He doesn't reply, and my phone rings and it's him. 58 00:03:55,476 --> 00:03:57,956 Speaker 1: I'm in an open office. How dare you call me 59 00:03:58,116 --> 00:04:01,196 Speaker 1: and exposed to my boss how little work I am doing? 60 00:04:01,636 --> 00:04:05,156 Speaker 1: But it's not him, it is his coworker and his 61 00:04:05,276 --> 00:04:07,676 Speaker 1: co worker is calling from Aaron's phone. And he wants 62 00:04:07,676 --> 00:04:10,716 Speaker 1: to know if Aaron has ever had had a seizure before. 63 00:04:11,116 --> 00:04:13,956 Speaker 1: Oh my god. And so I went to the hospital 64 00:04:14,596 --> 00:04:19,996 Speaker 1: immediately where the ambulance was taking Aaron. And we find 65 00:04:19,996 --> 00:04:23,916 Speaker 1: out that Aaron cannot go home to pass out candy 66 00:04:23,996 --> 00:04:26,476 Speaker 1: and Halloween because Aaron is going to need a brain 67 00:04:26,516 --> 00:04:32,276 Speaker 1: surgery because he has a brain tumor. And he has 68 00:04:32,396 --> 00:04:35,716 Speaker 1: three questions that I remember, and one is how will 69 00:04:35,716 --> 00:04:39,996 Speaker 1: we pay for this? Because yay America. Two he's like, 70 00:04:41,996 --> 00:04:44,556 Speaker 1: I really don't want to die. I was like, oh, 71 00:04:44,596 --> 00:04:47,436 Speaker 1: you're not going to die, dude, No way, no, no way, 72 00:04:47,716 --> 00:04:50,316 Speaker 1: no no. No. Other people die, but we are not 73 00:04:50,476 --> 00:04:53,356 Speaker 1: other people, that is for sure, not you. And then 74 00:04:53,396 --> 00:04:56,236 Speaker 1: he said you can't marry me. We can't get married 75 00:04:56,636 --> 00:04:58,636 Speaker 1: because I'm going to be sick. And I was like 76 00:04:59,076 --> 00:05:02,916 Speaker 1: I am going to marry you, Like, oh, I'm marrying you. 77 00:05:03,036 --> 00:05:05,356 Speaker 1: I'm marrying you the minute you get out of this hospital. 78 00:05:05,876 --> 00:05:08,276 Speaker 1: Like I don't even know if it was a proposal 79 00:05:08,396 --> 00:05:12,956 Speaker 1: so much as I just announced it. We are getting married. 80 00:05:13,116 --> 00:05:16,956 Speaker 1: We are going to get married. Yeah. What was it 81 00:05:17,036 --> 00:05:20,436 Speaker 1: like when you found out together that it was actually 82 00:05:20,556 --> 00:05:25,996 Speaker 1: terminal brain cancer. That's just where everything changed. The brain 83 00:05:26,036 --> 00:05:31,156 Speaker 1: tumor was brain cancer, and it was glioblastoma, which anytime 84 00:05:31,156 --> 00:05:33,036 Speaker 1: I say that word out in public, there's like an 85 00:05:33,076 --> 00:05:37,156 Speaker 1: audible oh right, right, because if you don't know the word, 86 00:05:37,516 --> 00:05:39,356 Speaker 1: you don't know the word. But if you know the word, 87 00:05:39,396 --> 00:05:45,596 Speaker 1: you know that it's an incurable, horrifying, aggressive, aggressive, and 88 00:05:45,836 --> 00:05:50,356 Speaker 1: violent form of brain cancer. We said to the doctor's 89 00:05:50,436 --> 00:05:52,156 Speaker 1: right away, because we had discussed this a little bit 90 00:05:52,236 --> 00:05:56,836 Speaker 1: beforehand walking in, we were like, no matter what, like, 91 00:05:56,956 --> 00:05:58,756 Speaker 1: what do you want out of this? And he was like, 92 00:05:58,876 --> 00:06:01,436 Speaker 1: I don't ever want to hear how much time I 93 00:06:01,516 --> 00:06:05,636 Speaker 1: have left. So before the doctor even talked, I was 94 00:06:05,716 --> 00:06:07,756 Speaker 1: just in it and I was like, listen here, Bud, 95 00:06:09,236 --> 00:06:12,076 Speaker 1: no point are you going to tell this man how 96 00:06:12,156 --> 00:06:15,036 Speaker 1: much time he has left to live, like at all, 97 00:06:15,956 --> 00:06:19,796 Speaker 1: even if you think he's like literally dying that moment, No, no, 98 00:06:19,876 --> 00:06:23,316 Speaker 1: he's not. Aaron did not want to become a cancer person. 99 00:06:23,796 --> 00:06:28,396 Speaker 1: He did not want that to be his identity. He 100 00:06:28,436 --> 00:06:31,156 Speaker 1: wanted it to take up the amount of time it required, 101 00:06:31,676 --> 00:06:36,036 Speaker 1: and absolutely no more. And I was like, fine, you're 102 00:06:36,116 --> 00:06:40,636 Speaker 1: the boss, and I will make sure I'm executing your vision. 103 00:06:42,356 --> 00:06:44,476 Speaker 1: Nor you really walk the walk on that one, because 104 00:06:44,516 --> 00:06:48,596 Speaker 1: even after finding out about the terminal cancer diagnosis. You 105 00:06:48,676 --> 00:06:51,716 Speaker 1: and Aaron have a child together, you get married, and 106 00:06:51,716 --> 00:06:55,436 Speaker 1: you also have a child. So in that appointment we asked, okay, 107 00:06:55,436 --> 00:06:57,996 Speaker 1: so what about kids? And I remember the nurse practitioner 108 00:06:58,076 --> 00:07:01,236 Speaker 1: looking at me like what about him? Baby? Yeah, like 109 00:07:01,916 --> 00:07:06,876 Speaker 1: what about them? So we decided to try, and a 110 00:07:06,996 --> 00:07:10,396 Speaker 1: year later we had Ralph. And a year later Aaron's 111 00:07:10,396 --> 00:07:14,556 Speaker 1: brain tumor was back. And that is when I knew, knew. 112 00:07:15,236 --> 00:07:19,476 Speaker 1: Oh wow, this man gave me something. I think he 113 00:07:19,596 --> 00:07:24,756 Speaker 1: knew more than I did, Like he signed up to 114 00:07:25,396 --> 00:07:28,916 Speaker 1: be a parent knowing that he wouldn't be there for 115 00:07:29,036 --> 00:07:34,276 Speaker 1: Ralph's whole life. And when I look at our son, 116 00:07:35,116 --> 00:07:39,036 Speaker 1: I think like, oh, I don't know if I would 117 00:07:39,036 --> 00:07:41,556 Speaker 1: be strong enough to do that, to know that I 118 00:07:41,556 --> 00:07:48,396 Speaker 1: wouldn't be there. And he was such a wonderful, fun 119 00:07:48,756 --> 00:07:51,916 Speaker 1: dad for the twenty two months that he was there. 120 00:07:52,436 --> 00:07:55,676 Speaker 1: You know, he woke up with the baby, he did, 121 00:07:57,076 --> 00:08:00,996 Speaker 1: he did everything. He was just so fun and present 122 00:08:01,916 --> 00:08:05,716 Speaker 1: and wonderful. And I am so glad he got that, 123 00:08:05,876 --> 00:08:11,196 Speaker 1: even though it wasn't and would never be enough for 124 00:08:11,436 --> 00:08:15,556 Speaker 1: Aaron or for Ralph. So Aaron was able to be 125 00:08:15,796 --> 00:08:19,316 Speaker 1: Ralph's dad for twenty two months, and he ended up 126 00:08:19,356 --> 00:08:25,636 Speaker 1: dying on November fourteen. And you know, you can intellectualize 127 00:08:25,636 --> 00:08:27,836 Speaker 1: what it'll be like to lose someone, and then when 128 00:08:27,836 --> 00:08:32,596 Speaker 1: you actually have the emotional experience unfold in real time, 129 00:08:32,676 --> 00:08:36,276 Speaker 1: you can sometimes surprise yourself with the reactions you're having 130 00:08:36,356 --> 00:08:39,036 Speaker 1: or the reflections you're having. And I'm just wondering what 131 00:08:39,196 --> 00:08:43,356 Speaker 1: shifted for you. You know, my dad had just died too, 132 00:08:44,196 --> 00:08:50,756 Speaker 1: and I had this sense of closeness with my siblings 133 00:08:50,916 --> 00:08:57,396 Speaker 1: and my mom and Ralph, and like my world seemed very, 134 00:08:57,556 --> 00:09:00,756 Speaker 1: very sharply in focus, and it's like, these are the 135 00:09:00,836 --> 00:09:03,676 Speaker 1: people who matter. I remember driving to you my dad's 136 00:09:03,676 --> 00:09:06,196 Speaker 1: funeral with my siblings. We were all together, and I 137 00:09:06,236 --> 00:09:08,396 Speaker 1: was like, we have to stay all together all the 138 00:09:08,476 --> 00:09:11,116 Speaker 1: time for the rest of our lives. We should all 139 00:09:11,156 --> 00:09:13,756 Speaker 1: live together. We should be traveling everywhere in a single 140 00:09:13,796 --> 00:09:15,956 Speaker 1: bus so that if there's an accident, we all go together. 141 00:09:16,356 --> 00:09:18,916 Speaker 1: Like it was just so I was like, this is it, 142 00:09:19,236 --> 00:09:22,316 Speaker 1: this is it. It's all of us right here. Oh gosh, 143 00:09:22,316 --> 00:09:25,996 Speaker 1: I can so resonate with that. Yeah. Roughly a month 144 00:09:26,036 --> 00:09:29,556 Speaker 1: after Aaron dies, you and your friend who lost her 145 00:09:29,636 --> 00:09:34,476 Speaker 1: husband informally start a group called the Hot Young Widows Club, 146 00:09:35,316 --> 00:09:38,396 Speaker 1: props to an extremely charming name. And I'm wondering if 147 00:09:38,396 --> 00:09:42,476 Speaker 1: you can tell me more about the group and what 148 00:09:42,596 --> 00:09:45,596 Speaker 1: you were hoping to achieve with it. So here's the 149 00:09:45,676 --> 00:09:50,156 Speaker 1: thing I wouldn't say. Almost immediately, but very quickly, after 150 00:09:50,196 --> 00:09:56,116 Speaker 1: Aaron died, I had I was buried in. It was 151 00:09:56,156 --> 00:10:00,076 Speaker 1: like wearing a weighted vest at the dentist all day, 152 00:10:00,676 --> 00:10:04,956 Speaker 1: this sense of guilt that Aaron was dead and I 153 00:10:05,036 --> 00:10:08,156 Speaker 1: was alive, and he was objectively better than me in 154 00:10:08,236 --> 00:10:13,396 Speaker 1: every way. Everyone loved Aaron. He made everyone feel like 155 00:10:13,476 --> 00:10:15,956 Speaker 1: they belonged at the party. The party could not have started. 156 00:10:16,276 --> 00:10:20,196 Speaker 1: Maya's here. Now open up the physical circle, physically, invite 157 00:10:20,196 --> 00:10:23,396 Speaker 1: you into the conversation, hold your hands, make you dance? 158 00:10:23,716 --> 00:10:26,036 Speaker 1: Can I get you a drink? Like just he had 159 00:10:26,116 --> 00:10:29,796 Speaker 1: that presence to him for everybody. At his funeral, a 160 00:10:29,836 --> 00:10:31,596 Speaker 1: guy came up to me and he said, high school 161 00:10:31,636 --> 00:10:33,916 Speaker 1: was so hard, it was hell. And every day Aaron 162 00:10:33,996 --> 00:10:36,236 Speaker 1: made sure I had somewhere to sit at lunch, like 163 00:10:36,676 --> 00:10:41,716 Speaker 1: that kind of person, And I almost immediately fell into 164 00:10:41,836 --> 00:10:45,076 Speaker 1: this trap that I've seen a lot of other people 165 00:10:45,876 --> 00:10:48,476 Speaker 1: fall into, which is very natural right. We want to 166 00:10:48,516 --> 00:10:51,916 Speaker 1: make meaning out of our experiences, but we want to 167 00:10:51,916 --> 00:10:54,676 Speaker 1: do it really quickly, and we want to alcomize our 168 00:10:54,716 --> 00:10:57,916 Speaker 1: suffering into some form of self improvement or a product, 169 00:10:57,956 --> 00:11:01,236 Speaker 1: a literal thing that we can point out and say, look, look, 170 00:11:01,236 --> 00:11:03,636 Speaker 1: I made this thing. This is what it means. And 171 00:11:04,436 --> 00:11:07,756 Speaker 1: there was a woman named Moe in northeast Minneapolis where 172 00:11:07,756 --> 00:11:10,556 Speaker 1: I lived, and her husband had also died. He died 173 00:11:10,596 --> 00:11:13,676 Speaker 1: by suicide. I'd never met her. I did not want 174 00:11:13,716 --> 00:11:16,116 Speaker 1: to meet her. I did not want a widow friend. 175 00:11:16,116 --> 00:11:18,156 Speaker 1: Aaron didn't want to be a cancer person. I didn't 176 00:11:18,156 --> 00:11:19,716 Speaker 1: want to be a widow. Yeah, I didn't want to 177 00:11:19,716 --> 00:11:22,636 Speaker 1: be a dead husband person. But we went to the 178 00:11:22,636 --> 00:11:24,916 Speaker 1: same coffee shop, and the coffee shop ladies were not 179 00:11:24,916 --> 00:11:27,556 Speaker 1: going to let it rest. So I had to meet 180 00:11:27,596 --> 00:11:32,356 Speaker 1: Mo and I did, And I will remember forever again 181 00:11:32,396 --> 00:11:34,516 Speaker 1: just a month after my husband has died, like three 182 00:11:34,556 --> 00:11:37,916 Speaker 1: months after her husband has died, like lock eyes on 183 00:11:37,956 --> 00:11:41,636 Speaker 1: a winter sidewalk in Minneapolis, and we like run towards 184 00:11:41,636 --> 00:11:45,156 Speaker 1: each other. Wow, we run to each other and we're 185 00:11:45,196 --> 00:11:49,836 Speaker 1: like holding each other and we're crying, and we're immediately 186 00:11:49,956 --> 00:11:51,396 Speaker 1: just like, tell me about your kid, tell me about 187 00:11:51,436 --> 00:11:52,956 Speaker 1: your kid, Tell me about your husband, Tell me about 188 00:11:52,956 --> 00:11:57,556 Speaker 1: your husband. We're saying to each other these horrible things 189 00:11:57,556 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 1: that no one else wants to hear, like do you 190 00:11:59,796 --> 00:12:06,556 Speaker 1: have flashbacks? Do you see a dead body? Like? Oh, 191 00:12:06,556 --> 00:12:09,836 Speaker 1: do you sleep at night? I don't sleep. Have you 192 00:12:09,836 --> 00:12:12,116 Speaker 1: been able to cancel his cell phone? No? Me neither. 193 00:12:13,276 --> 00:12:16,356 Speaker 1: What are you doing with the student loans? Not just 194 00:12:16,516 --> 00:12:23,036 Speaker 1: admin stuff, but just these like are you lonely? What 195 00:12:23,036 --> 00:12:29,436 Speaker 1: are we going to do with these boys? Just the 196 00:12:29,556 --> 00:12:34,716 Speaker 1: act of having someone who understands where you are, even 197 00:12:34,716 --> 00:12:38,276 Speaker 1: if they didn't get there the same way, was so 198 00:12:38,316 --> 00:12:41,876 Speaker 1: immediately obvious that I could not believe it took me 199 00:12:41,956 --> 00:12:45,356 Speaker 1: that long to meet her. And we called ourselves the 200 00:12:45,436 --> 00:12:48,836 Speaker 1: Hot Young Widows Club, and we would just meet up 201 00:12:49,116 --> 00:12:51,636 Speaker 1: with our boys, because you don't have a husband to 202 00:12:51,636 --> 00:12:55,076 Speaker 1: watch him anymore. And we'd meet up, we'd have dinner, 203 00:12:55,156 --> 00:12:58,516 Speaker 1: we'd have breakfast, and then you know, someone else's husband 204 00:12:58,556 --> 00:13:01,756 Speaker 1: died and they got looped in with us. Someone sends 205 00:13:01,756 --> 00:13:03,876 Speaker 1: me a text message, my friend's husband just died. Can 206 00:13:03,916 --> 00:13:07,836 Speaker 1: she talk to you? Yeah? Yeah. My friend's cousin's mailman's 207 00:13:07,916 --> 00:13:10,916 Speaker 1: husband just died. Can they meet up with you? Yeah? 208 00:13:10,916 --> 00:13:14,876 Speaker 1: And so it's not just me and mow anymore. It's 209 00:13:15,036 --> 00:13:17,276 Speaker 1: a bunch of widows in Minneapolis, and sometimes we have 210 00:13:17,316 --> 00:13:19,556 Speaker 1: brunch and sometimes we meet up for drinks, and sometimes 211 00:13:19,556 --> 00:13:23,076 Speaker 1: we're just texting on a group chat. And then there 212 00:13:23,076 --> 00:13:26,036 Speaker 1: are more people, and then there are more people, and 213 00:13:26,076 --> 00:13:28,116 Speaker 1: then we can't all fit in a living room, and 214 00:13:28,716 --> 00:13:30,716 Speaker 1: you know, can it be a Facebook group? And can 215 00:13:30,716 --> 00:13:33,396 Speaker 1: my friend join even though you know they live in 216 00:13:33,436 --> 00:13:37,276 Speaker 1: Montana or Wisconsin or Florida, Yeah, yeah, sure, sure sure, 217 00:13:37,676 --> 00:13:42,356 Speaker 1: And it just keeps growing and then it's thousands of people. 218 00:13:42,756 --> 00:13:49,716 Speaker 1: It's so wonderful, Maya. In so many ways. We had 219 00:13:49,756 --> 00:13:53,396 Speaker 1: more than one Christmas where the widows who had kids 220 00:13:53,516 --> 00:13:57,316 Speaker 1: who couldn't afford Christmas presents, everybody pulled their money and 221 00:13:57,316 --> 00:13:58,916 Speaker 1: sent them a bunch of gift cards so they could 222 00:13:58,916 --> 00:14:02,356 Speaker 1: buy their kids Christmas presents. It's beautiful. You know, people 223 00:14:02,556 --> 00:14:06,196 Speaker 1: met up for vacations and made best friends. There was 224 00:14:06,236 --> 00:14:09,556 Speaker 1: always someone online, so when you woke up in the 225 00:14:09,596 --> 00:14:14,516 Speaker 1: middle of the night and needed someone, there would be 226 00:14:14,556 --> 00:14:19,076 Speaker 1: someone there when you posted, and you could say it's 227 00:14:19,116 --> 00:14:23,436 Speaker 1: something like I am having wild sex dreams right now, 228 00:14:23,636 --> 00:14:25,356 Speaker 1: like I think I just need to hook up with someone. 229 00:14:25,516 --> 00:14:28,756 Speaker 1: Is that okay, and a chorus of other voices would 230 00:14:28,756 --> 00:14:31,116 Speaker 1: be like, yes, you were still alive, it's okay. That 231 00:14:31,236 --> 00:14:33,836 Speaker 1: is like a biological mean, that's okay. It does not 232 00:14:33,956 --> 00:14:36,276 Speaker 1: mean you don't love your husband or your wife or 233 00:14:36,276 --> 00:14:40,836 Speaker 1: your boyfriend. And there was just always somebody there who 234 00:14:40,876 --> 00:14:45,916 Speaker 1: could relate to whatever crazy thing you were feeling, which 235 00:14:45,996 --> 00:14:52,716 Speaker 1: was so so validating. You know, you're thinking, I survived Aaron, 236 00:14:52,996 --> 00:14:54,676 Speaker 1: and Aaron's supposed to be here, and I need to 237 00:14:54,716 --> 00:14:57,916 Speaker 1: live this incredibly meaningful life. And I find myself in 238 00:14:57,956 --> 00:15:02,116 Speaker 1: this situation bringing comfort to this other person. Did it 239 00:15:02,156 --> 00:15:04,956 Speaker 1: maybe release some of the burden that you felt. I 240 00:15:04,996 --> 00:15:06,916 Speaker 1: think I was seeking a way to kind of like 241 00:15:07,476 --> 00:15:10,796 Speaker 1: balance the scales and also to prove to myself that 242 00:15:10,876 --> 00:15:15,156 Speaker 1: I deserved to be alive and like be okay, And 243 00:15:15,196 --> 00:15:18,556 Speaker 1: so anything somebody asked me to do, I would do. 244 00:15:19,236 --> 00:15:22,036 Speaker 1: You know, in the idea of like there's so many 245 00:15:23,076 --> 00:15:26,196 Speaker 1: five thousand, three thousand, two thousand, one thousand people, they're 246 00:15:26,196 --> 00:15:27,716 Speaker 1: not all going to get along, yeah, you know what 247 00:15:27,756 --> 00:15:29,796 Speaker 1: I mean, Like they're not going to and they're all 248 00:15:29,916 --> 00:15:34,316 Speaker 1: we're all deeply hurt, many of us incredibly traumatized. It 249 00:15:34,396 --> 00:15:36,276 Speaker 1: took me a long time to go to therapy after 250 00:15:36,316 --> 00:15:40,476 Speaker 1: Aaron died. So I'm also dealing with my own undiagnosed 251 00:15:40,476 --> 00:15:46,596 Speaker 1: PTSD and depression and untreated anxiety and trying to manage 252 00:15:46,796 --> 00:15:51,356 Speaker 1: interpersonal conflict. Or this person said this about you know, 253 00:15:51,716 --> 00:15:54,316 Speaker 1: this kind of disease, and I found it offensive. And 254 00:15:54,596 --> 00:15:56,796 Speaker 1: when do we kick someone out? And when do we? 255 00:15:56,916 --> 00:15:59,156 Speaker 1: You know, I'm like, I don't know how am I 256 00:15:59,196 --> 00:16:02,076 Speaker 1: in charge? Yeah? Yeah, Yeah, it seems like you were. 257 00:16:02,156 --> 00:16:06,556 Speaker 1: You were thrust into a group that you never thought 258 00:16:06,636 --> 00:16:09,676 Speaker 1: you would be leading, right, I mean, yeah, in many ways, 259 00:16:09,756 --> 00:16:13,276 Speaker 1: you were so interesting or it's like you were you 260 00:16:13,276 --> 00:16:15,516 Speaker 1: were acting as a grief dula for so many people, 261 00:16:15,556 --> 00:16:17,636 Speaker 1: even though you're not trained as a great dula. Hell no, 262 00:16:17,756 --> 00:16:19,916 Speaker 1: I'm not. No, But then what I'm also hearing from 263 00:16:19,916 --> 00:16:23,476 Speaker 1: you is you were actually serving as like a grief 264 00:16:23,996 --> 00:16:27,996 Speaker 1: group dula, because now you're managing the interpersonal dynamics of 265 00:16:28,036 --> 00:16:31,036 Speaker 1: everybody who's navigating the worst moments of their lives, and 266 00:16:31,036 --> 00:16:32,916 Speaker 1: I were trying to figure out how they can interact 267 00:16:32,956 --> 00:16:37,436 Speaker 1: with each other more peacefully. Yeah, that is an incredible responsibility. 268 00:16:37,996 --> 00:16:41,796 Speaker 1: You know. You mentioned it's like I was sort of 269 00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:44,876 Speaker 1: thrust into this position and even when I thought like, 270 00:16:45,236 --> 00:16:47,636 Speaker 1: this shouldn't be me, I didn't say anything. I did 271 00:16:47,636 --> 00:16:50,036 Speaker 1: not know that it was okay for me to say, 272 00:16:50,116 --> 00:16:52,396 Speaker 1: like I shouldn't be the one doing this, Like I 273 00:16:52,396 --> 00:16:56,036 Speaker 1: should not be in charge. Someone asked me to do it, 274 00:16:56,156 --> 00:16:57,636 Speaker 1: or they're asking me to do it. So I guess 275 00:16:57,636 --> 00:17:00,716 Speaker 1: I just have to say yes. I guess I just 276 00:17:00,756 --> 00:17:03,276 Speaker 1: have to keep doing it. And by the way, the 277 00:17:03,356 --> 00:17:07,276 Speaker 1: Hot Young Widows Club grew alongside all these sort of 278 00:17:07,316 --> 00:17:11,316 Speaker 1: other parts of my life. So I ended up falling 279 00:17:11,316 --> 00:17:15,236 Speaker 1: in love again about a year after Aaron died, and 280 00:17:16,116 --> 00:17:21,516 Speaker 1: getting married sometime after that, and getting pregnant and having 281 00:17:21,556 --> 00:17:26,716 Speaker 1: a baby and blending this family of four kids Matthews, 282 00:17:26,716 --> 00:17:31,196 Speaker 1: two kids, Ralph, and there's a newborn baby. And I 283 00:17:31,276 --> 00:17:36,756 Speaker 1: start this podcast Terrible thanks for asking. I put together 284 00:17:37,076 --> 00:17:42,396 Speaker 1: a ted talk about grief. I start this nonprofit that 285 00:17:42,596 --> 00:17:45,396 Speaker 1: does what happened for me and Aaron, like gives people 286 00:17:45,436 --> 00:17:49,076 Speaker 1: money when their lives are falling apart. And the Hot 287 00:17:49,116 --> 00:17:54,756 Speaker 1: Young Widows Club is this big, big part of my life. 288 00:17:54,756 --> 00:17:58,636 Speaker 1: This is, in a lot of way is kind of 289 00:17:58,636 --> 00:18:03,996 Speaker 1: the center of it. Walk me through a sample day 290 00:18:04,276 --> 00:18:08,556 Speaker 1: in the life of grief. Dula Nora, Yeah, Mo and 291 00:18:08,596 --> 00:18:12,116 Speaker 1: I are trying to find ways for people to connect 292 00:18:12,356 --> 00:18:14,956 Speaker 1: when it's online or when it's in person, and where, 293 00:18:15,276 --> 00:18:20,436 Speaker 1: you know, coordinating meetups in Minneapolis that are regularly scheduled. 294 00:18:20,556 --> 00:18:25,756 Speaker 1: And I constantly, constantly, constantly have Facebook open on my 295 00:18:25,876 --> 00:18:30,036 Speaker 1: phone so if somebody tags me and they need something, 296 00:18:30,116 --> 00:18:32,916 Speaker 1: they need anything, that I can see it and I 297 00:18:32,956 --> 00:18:36,556 Speaker 1: can respond to them. We're coordinating like the gift car 298 00:18:36,676 --> 00:18:40,996 Speaker 1: drives for people around the holidays or all year round, 299 00:18:41,196 --> 00:18:45,556 Speaker 1: for people who just need necessities, need money for groceries, 300 00:18:45,636 --> 00:18:50,796 Speaker 1: need money for gas. We're doing FaceTime meetups so that 301 00:18:50,916 --> 00:18:55,316 Speaker 1: you know, anybody who's alone at the holidays isn't really alone. 302 00:18:55,756 --> 00:19:00,316 Speaker 1: I was constantly drinking from this fire hose of other 303 00:19:00,356 --> 00:19:03,436 Speaker 1: people's very real suffering that I am built to care 304 00:19:03,476 --> 00:19:07,436 Speaker 1: about to my own detriment. You know, like if somebody 305 00:19:07,476 --> 00:19:09,556 Speaker 1: texted me and they needed me, I would step away 306 00:19:09,596 --> 00:19:12,036 Speaker 1: from my dinner table and answer them. I would take 307 00:19:12,036 --> 00:19:14,956 Speaker 1: a FaceTime call. I would do my best to respond 308 00:19:14,996 --> 00:19:19,276 Speaker 1: to things like as immediately as possible, because I remembered 309 00:19:19,316 --> 00:19:24,636 Speaker 1: how absolutely lonely, especially those early days were, and I 310 00:19:24,676 --> 00:19:26,596 Speaker 1: felt like, well, you know, I've got this new husband, 311 00:19:26,596 --> 00:19:28,756 Speaker 1: I got these kids, like look at all that I have, 312 00:19:28,876 --> 00:19:31,196 Speaker 1: Like I should be available, right, it should be available 313 00:19:32,276 --> 00:19:35,076 Speaker 1: for all these people, like to the people that need me. 314 00:19:35,516 --> 00:19:38,836 Speaker 1: And no, I was not trained, No, I was not qualified. 315 00:19:38,916 --> 00:19:44,116 Speaker 1: No I have no sort of like protective measures between me, 316 00:19:44,636 --> 00:19:48,996 Speaker 1: like no protective boundaries between me and these people that 317 00:19:49,076 --> 00:19:52,876 Speaker 1: I care so much about. None. And you know, you mentioned, 318 00:19:52,916 --> 00:19:56,396 Speaker 1: Nora that other parts of your life were growing alongside 319 00:19:56,756 --> 00:19:59,956 Speaker 1: this support group, and one of those big things that 320 00:20:00,036 --> 00:20:03,836 Speaker 1: was growing was your family. Right. You're you're parenting four children, Yeah, 321 00:20:03,876 --> 00:20:05,676 Speaker 1: one of whom you share with your new husband. You 322 00:20:05,676 --> 00:20:08,716 Speaker 1: are navigating a new marriage, And I just wonder, you know, 323 00:20:09,356 --> 00:20:11,916 Speaker 1: they're of course trade offs with your time. Right, So 324 00:20:11,956 --> 00:20:13,916 Speaker 1: you're leaving the dinner table, that means you're not having 325 00:20:13,956 --> 00:20:18,396 Speaker 1: a moment with Ralph. Right, you do a FaceTime call 326 00:20:18,476 --> 00:20:20,356 Speaker 1: with someone on Christmas Eve, that means you're not actually 327 00:20:20,396 --> 00:20:23,716 Speaker 1: connecting with your husband. And I just wonder whether, in 328 00:20:23,756 --> 00:20:26,196 Speaker 1: the throes of all of that, did you ever take 329 00:20:26,196 --> 00:20:32,436 Speaker 1: a step back and question whether you were doing too much? Yes? 330 00:20:32,756 --> 00:20:36,756 Speaker 1: And no, because I would think, like, yeah, I can't 331 00:20:36,796 --> 00:20:40,196 Speaker 1: stop doing it, you know, like, I mean, what's the 332 00:20:40,236 --> 00:20:42,916 Speaker 1: point I'm knowing it's too much? But why couldn't you 333 00:20:42,916 --> 00:20:45,516 Speaker 1: stop doing it? I don't know why I couldn't do it. 334 00:20:45,596 --> 00:20:50,276 Speaker 1: I couldn't stop doing it because are you allowed to 335 00:20:50,356 --> 00:20:53,596 Speaker 1: quit anything? Winners never quit, Quitters never win, you know, 336 00:20:53,836 --> 00:20:57,596 Speaker 1: like you what was I gonna win the Best Widow Award? 337 00:20:57,636 --> 00:21:01,516 Speaker 1: I don't know. I felt like I don't know. I 338 00:21:01,676 --> 00:21:06,356 Speaker 1: felt in a lot of ways like I had inadvertently 339 00:21:06,476 --> 00:21:13,156 Speaker 1: built this identity that had become a cage for me. 340 00:21:13,916 --> 00:21:17,236 Speaker 1: But I was so afraid. I was so afraid of 341 00:21:17,276 --> 00:21:20,276 Speaker 1: not doing the Hot Young Widows Club anymore. But every 342 00:21:20,276 --> 00:21:24,076 Speaker 1: time I thought about not doing it anymore, I felt 343 00:21:24,116 --> 00:21:29,676 Speaker 1: so relieved. I felt so relieved. I felt so relieved, 344 00:21:33,156 --> 00:21:36,876 Speaker 1: and I just did not know how to do that. 345 00:21:37,036 --> 00:21:38,596 Speaker 1: I didn't know how to do that. I didn't know 346 00:21:38,636 --> 00:21:44,316 Speaker 1: how to not do things anymore. We'll be back in 347 00:21:44,356 --> 00:21:58,836 Speaker 1: a moment with a slight change of plans. Or you mentioned, 348 00:21:58,836 --> 00:22:01,916 Speaker 1: you know you didn't know how to quit this group? 349 00:22:02,156 --> 00:22:04,556 Speaker 1: Yeah right, you said every time you fantasized about it, 350 00:22:05,556 --> 00:22:09,356 Speaker 1: you felt profound relief. But it was just unclear how 351 00:22:09,356 --> 00:22:11,756 Speaker 1: you could ever go from point A to point B. Yeah, 352 00:22:11,796 --> 00:22:15,596 Speaker 1: and then there's this one day that forces you to 353 00:22:15,596 --> 00:22:21,556 Speaker 1: go there. Yeah, where you realize that something has to change. Yeah, 354 00:22:21,596 --> 00:22:26,716 Speaker 1: it's winter in Arizona, which is the most beautiful season 355 00:22:26,756 --> 00:22:31,316 Speaker 1: because it looks like summer anywhere else. And we had 356 00:22:31,596 --> 00:22:35,156 Speaker 1: friends visiting us from Minnesota. And these friends have five kids, 357 00:22:35,636 --> 00:22:38,236 Speaker 1: and so we're all going to go on this big hike, 358 00:22:38,476 --> 00:22:42,196 Speaker 1: you know, the dads the moms, like seven kids and 359 00:22:42,756 --> 00:22:46,316 Speaker 1: three cars and it's so sweet and so cute, and 360 00:22:46,636 --> 00:22:50,436 Speaker 1: all our little kids are like collecting rocks and identifying 361 00:22:50,756 --> 00:22:53,436 Speaker 1: plant life. And we're all coming back to our house 362 00:22:53,476 --> 00:22:55,756 Speaker 1: and the dads are going to grill and the kids 363 00:22:55,756 --> 00:22:58,316 Speaker 1: are going to play and the moms are going to talk, 364 00:22:59,076 --> 00:23:01,756 Speaker 1: and it's so wonderful. And we pull up to our 365 00:23:01,796 --> 00:23:04,876 Speaker 1: house and everyone tumbles out of these cars and everyone 366 00:23:04,956 --> 00:23:07,036 Speaker 1: switched seats. You know, I've got some of her kids, 367 00:23:07,036 --> 00:23:09,676 Speaker 1: she's got some of my kids. And we all inside 368 00:23:09,676 --> 00:23:12,756 Speaker 1: and the dad's do grill and the moms do talk 369 00:23:12,796 --> 00:23:15,996 Speaker 1: and the kids do play. And I'm talking to my 370 00:23:16,076 --> 00:23:18,796 Speaker 1: friend and I tell her, because I am in my 371 00:23:18,876 --> 00:23:21,756 Speaker 1: late thirties, I'm like, you got to see this tree. Okay, 372 00:23:21,836 --> 00:23:23,556 Speaker 1: you got to see this tree. If you drew a 373 00:23:23,596 --> 00:23:26,476 Speaker 1: tree as a kid, this is that tree. One trunk, 374 00:23:26,596 --> 00:23:30,076 Speaker 1: two big branches, big canopy, the most gorgeous tree. We 375 00:23:30,156 --> 00:23:34,116 Speaker 1: walk outside to see this tree, and she's, honestly, she's 376 00:23:34,156 --> 00:23:36,116 Speaker 1: as impressed as I wanted her to be. She's like, 377 00:23:36,156 --> 00:23:39,756 Speaker 1: that's a hell of a tree. And we hear and 378 00:23:40,876 --> 00:23:47,396 Speaker 1: I look over and there's this little hand beating against 379 00:23:47,996 --> 00:23:53,676 Speaker 1: the tinted window of my car. And I'm immediately so 380 00:23:53,756 --> 00:23:59,316 Speaker 1: mad because my then four year old was in the 381 00:23:59,316 --> 00:24:01,236 Speaker 1: backseat of the car, and he knows better. You don't 382 00:24:01,236 --> 00:24:03,276 Speaker 1: play in a car. You don't play in a car. 383 00:24:03,756 --> 00:24:08,196 Speaker 1: And I take three quick steps across the driveway and 384 00:24:08,236 --> 00:24:12,076 Speaker 1: I op in that door, and he's harnessed into his 385 00:24:12,196 --> 00:24:15,676 Speaker 1: car seat, and he looks at me with his giant 386 00:24:16,756 --> 00:24:22,716 Speaker 1: blue saucer eyeballs, with so much relief and so much love, 387 00:24:22,836 --> 00:24:24,956 Speaker 1: and he says, can I get out of the car yet? 388 00:24:26,636 --> 00:24:31,356 Speaker 1: And look at my friend and we both go completely pale, 389 00:24:32,636 --> 00:24:37,036 Speaker 1: and I know that she knows that I left my 390 00:24:37,156 --> 00:24:44,916 Speaker 1: kid in the car. And I pick him up and 391 00:24:44,956 --> 00:24:47,356 Speaker 1: he is soaking wet, and part of it is tears 392 00:24:47,436 --> 00:24:50,836 Speaker 1: and part of it is sweat, and he's clinging to 393 00:24:50,996 --> 00:24:54,836 Speaker 1: me like a little baby monkey, and he's immediately telling 394 00:24:54,836 --> 00:24:58,036 Speaker 1: me what happened. Everybody got out of the car. Everybody 395 00:24:58,076 --> 00:25:00,076 Speaker 1: went inside, and I called it for you and you 396 00:25:00,196 --> 00:25:05,996 Speaker 1: didn't hear me? Did you forget it me? And it 397 00:25:06,076 --> 00:25:15,036 Speaker 1: had been an hour and no one noticed, but more 398 00:25:15,076 --> 00:25:21,316 Speaker 1: importantly I hadn't noticed. And I carried him inside, and 399 00:25:21,716 --> 00:25:25,596 Speaker 1: my husband, Matthew is outside, and this is the baby 400 00:25:25,596 --> 00:25:29,316 Speaker 1: you share with, Matthew. Yeah, this is like our little 401 00:25:29,836 --> 00:25:35,636 Speaker 1: miracle baby unexpected. Did not think this baby would happen. 402 00:25:36,196 --> 00:25:42,196 Speaker 1: Here he is, and like I have to tell him, 403 00:25:42,236 --> 00:25:44,996 Speaker 1: I have to tell him. And Matthew is so kind. 404 00:25:45,076 --> 00:25:48,276 Speaker 1: He's the kindest person I know. He's so sweet, and 405 00:25:48,436 --> 00:25:54,676 Speaker 1: like he looked at me like I was his enemy, 406 00:25:58,356 --> 00:26:00,436 Speaker 1: and like the little kids don't know, right, they have 407 00:26:00,516 --> 00:26:03,356 Speaker 1: no idea what's happened. But like every parent is looking 408 00:26:03,396 --> 00:26:08,436 Speaker 1: around like, oh God, like we all know what just 409 00:26:08,596 --> 00:26:12,556 Speaker 1: almost happened. You know, it's like probably seventy degrees, which 410 00:26:12,596 --> 00:26:15,596 Speaker 1: means it's like could be ninety ninety five in the car, 411 00:26:15,716 --> 00:26:19,156 Speaker 1: like kids die that way, like they do. We all 412 00:26:19,196 --> 00:26:21,476 Speaker 1: know that. We all know you're not supposed to leave 413 00:26:21,476 --> 00:26:23,916 Speaker 1: a kid in the car. And Matthew wants to know 414 00:26:23,956 --> 00:26:27,356 Speaker 1: how it happened, and like, what can I tell him 415 00:26:27,356 --> 00:26:30,236 Speaker 1: other than I don't know where my brain is. My 416 00:26:30,316 --> 00:26:36,156 Speaker 1: brain is always somewhere else. It's never a cute. I 417 00:26:36,196 --> 00:26:40,036 Speaker 1: don't know what I was doing. I don't know. And 418 00:26:42,276 --> 00:26:45,876 Speaker 1: Matthew could forgive all the times I was on my 419 00:26:45,916 --> 00:26:50,316 Speaker 1: phone when he was talking. I could forgive all the 420 00:26:50,356 --> 00:26:53,196 Speaker 1: times I got it from the dinner table, or you know, 421 00:26:53,796 --> 00:26:58,436 Speaker 1: to get another call or scheduled a zoom call for bedtime. 422 00:26:58,516 --> 00:27:03,476 Speaker 1: So he did all the bedtimes or any of that. 423 00:27:04,196 --> 00:27:08,636 Speaker 1: But like, this was like the unforgivable thing. And I 424 00:27:08,716 --> 00:27:14,636 Speaker 1: understand why it was because of six years at the 425 00:27:14,676 --> 00:27:20,516 Speaker 1: time of just piling stuff on, trying desperately to prove 426 00:27:20,956 --> 00:27:25,876 Speaker 1: to myself and to some imaginary arbiter that I was 427 00:27:25,956 --> 00:27:29,876 Speaker 1: worth it. I was okay, like I had earned a 428 00:27:29,916 --> 00:27:34,236 Speaker 1: place on this earth. I still deserved to be here. 429 00:27:34,996 --> 00:27:40,836 Speaker 1: And all of it was so much that I never 430 00:27:40,956 --> 00:27:44,876 Speaker 1: knew what day it was, what I was doing, what 431 00:27:44,916 --> 00:27:47,316 Speaker 1: was going on, Like it was just all a constant 432 00:27:47,476 --> 00:27:53,036 Speaker 1: swirl of chaos. What thoughts were going on in your 433 00:27:53,076 --> 00:27:57,316 Speaker 1: mind after you recovered from that initial shock, Yeah, the 434 00:27:57,396 --> 00:28:00,076 Speaker 1: cycling was like you're horrible person, You're a bad mother, 435 00:28:00,116 --> 00:28:02,756 Speaker 1: you don't deserve this baby, Like you almost killed them 436 00:28:02,756 --> 00:28:04,996 Speaker 1: with your negligence, because like you're constantly doing stuff and 437 00:28:04,996 --> 00:28:06,276 Speaker 1: what are you even doing? Like why are you doing 438 00:28:06,276 --> 00:28:09,596 Speaker 1: all this stuff? Just a firestorm and just a wantlet 439 00:28:09,636 --> 00:28:12,556 Speaker 1: of thoughts. You know, there's not enough cognitive behavioral therapy 440 00:28:12,556 --> 00:28:14,956 Speaker 1: in the world to swat that many away. It's like 441 00:28:15,156 --> 00:28:19,116 Speaker 1: fruit ninja. But for feelings, it was too much. This 442 00:28:19,236 --> 00:28:23,596 Speaker 1: crescendo of things had been building, right. There was so 443 00:28:23,636 --> 00:28:28,636 Speaker 1: many things that I was doing, none of them particularly well, 444 00:28:28,916 --> 00:28:33,716 Speaker 1: but I was somehow central to every single thing. And 445 00:28:33,796 --> 00:28:38,236 Speaker 1: I realized I have to do a lot less. And 446 00:28:38,316 --> 00:28:40,556 Speaker 1: I was afraid if I was not in the hot 447 00:28:40,596 --> 00:28:43,916 Speaker 1: in widows club, if widow was not a front and 448 00:28:44,076 --> 00:28:49,596 Speaker 1: center part of my identity, then to step away from 449 00:28:49,596 --> 00:28:56,116 Speaker 1: that would also be stepping away from Erin. It felt 450 00:28:56,156 --> 00:29:03,596 Speaker 1: like quitting the club would be quitting Aaron, and not 451 00:29:03,676 --> 00:29:08,396 Speaker 1: even just to me. But I was afraid that it 452 00:29:08,396 --> 00:29:13,156 Speaker 1: would somehow telegraphed to other people that that part of myself, 453 00:29:13,476 --> 00:29:15,756 Speaker 1: that part of my life, that part of my identity, 454 00:29:17,156 --> 00:29:21,236 Speaker 1: didn't matter anymore, and that I was somehow just shearing 455 00:29:21,276 --> 00:29:29,356 Speaker 1: it off and leaving it behind. And I say all 456 00:29:29,356 --> 00:29:31,636 Speaker 1: the time, like I will always be his widow, I 457 00:29:31,636 --> 00:29:34,596 Speaker 1: will always be his wife, but I'm also someone else's wife. 458 00:29:34,716 --> 00:29:38,436 Speaker 1: And a friend of mine had said after her husband 459 00:29:38,476 --> 00:29:41,996 Speaker 1: died that we have a sacred responsibility to live fully 460 00:29:42,076 --> 00:29:46,116 Speaker 1: in the face of our losses. It's a bitch though 461 00:29:46,316 --> 00:29:51,836 Speaker 1: her words, and I think that is so true. And 462 00:29:51,916 --> 00:29:56,556 Speaker 1: I was not living fully. I was so distracted, so 463 00:29:56,716 --> 00:30:01,876 Speaker 1: consumed constantly by the ways that I had fractured out 464 00:30:02,236 --> 00:30:07,836 Speaker 1: my attention to any and everything that might need me right, Like, 465 00:30:07,916 --> 00:30:11,636 Speaker 1: there's this organization, there's this organization, there's this podcast, there's writing, 466 00:30:11,676 --> 00:30:16,556 Speaker 1: there's my family, bottom of the list, my family actually 467 00:30:16,596 --> 00:30:21,036 Speaker 1: bottom of the list me. Yeah, And I had just 468 00:30:21,356 --> 00:30:26,436 Speaker 1: fractured myself into so many pieces. It always felt like 469 00:30:26,476 --> 00:30:29,516 Speaker 1: I was juggling on top of like a pogo stick 470 00:30:29,596 --> 00:30:32,116 Speaker 1: on top of a ball. And I can't do any 471 00:30:32,116 --> 00:30:34,596 Speaker 1: of those things, so why was I doing them all 472 00:30:34,596 --> 00:30:36,996 Speaker 1: at once? And I was like, okay, let's stop doing it. 473 00:30:37,156 --> 00:30:44,356 Speaker 1: And I talked to Moe and she was like, yeah, yeah, 474 00:30:44,396 --> 00:30:46,716 Speaker 1: I've been feeling that way too. She's like, yeah, I 475 00:30:46,756 --> 00:30:48,916 Speaker 1: want to retire. I want to retire from this thing. 476 00:30:49,796 --> 00:30:53,756 Speaker 1: And we thought, okay, so what do we do? And 477 00:30:53,956 --> 00:30:58,516 Speaker 1: we talked to a couple of the widow's that's male widows. 478 00:30:58,876 --> 00:31:00,436 Speaker 1: We talked to a couple of them and we're like, 479 00:31:00,516 --> 00:31:03,476 Speaker 1: would you want to take it over? Just take over, 480 00:31:04,076 --> 00:31:06,316 Speaker 1: change the name. You can figure out how you want 481 00:31:06,316 --> 00:31:08,996 Speaker 1: to run things. And they did. They were like, yeah, absolutely, 482 00:31:09,116 --> 00:31:12,596 Speaker 1: would be honored to do that. And it was that easy. 483 00:31:13,996 --> 00:31:16,836 Speaker 1: It was that easy. I got maybe one message from 484 00:31:16,836 --> 00:31:20,196 Speaker 1: a person that was unkind, yeah, and everyone else was 485 00:31:20,236 --> 00:31:22,676 Speaker 1: like I get it, I get it. Thank you. Yeah. Wow. 486 00:31:23,156 --> 00:31:27,116 Speaker 1: So there wasn't that judgment that you were anticipating. No, No, 487 00:31:27,876 --> 00:31:32,316 Speaker 1: it is literally like so many things all in my head, 488 00:31:33,996 --> 00:31:39,436 Speaker 1: all in my head. The biggest shift in my mind 489 00:31:39,596 --> 00:31:42,476 Speaker 1: and in my life and in my heart and my 490 00:31:42,636 --> 00:31:47,676 Speaker 1: being is this shift from doing and accomplishing and achieving 491 00:31:47,716 --> 00:31:56,636 Speaker 1: and tacking boxes to existing to actually being. I'm not 492 00:31:56,796 --> 00:32:02,356 Speaker 1: meant to just be a favored dispenser. I'm not like 493 00:32:02,396 --> 00:32:07,116 Speaker 1: a vending machine for other people's needs. And by the way, 494 00:32:07,516 --> 00:32:12,236 Speaker 1: nobody treated me like that. I treated myself like that. 495 00:32:13,516 --> 00:32:15,636 Speaker 1: No one was like, no one was setting out to 496 00:32:15,676 --> 00:32:18,516 Speaker 1: be like I want to really wreck this lady to day. 497 00:32:18,556 --> 00:32:22,396 Speaker 1: No one, no one. But it's like I did not 498 00:32:22,476 --> 00:32:26,476 Speaker 1: allow myself any boundaries. I didn't know how to do 499 00:32:26,516 --> 00:32:30,156 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, and I sort of turned myself 500 00:32:30,196 --> 00:32:33,956 Speaker 1: into the giving tree, which is really of all of 501 00:32:33,996 --> 00:32:40,756 Speaker 1: Shelf Silverstein's work. Not his best, you know, not his best, 502 00:32:41,436 --> 00:32:47,156 Speaker 1: not a great message. You painted this really beautiful cozy picture. 503 00:32:47,196 --> 00:32:50,996 Speaker 1: At the beginning of our conversation about how when Aaron died, 504 00:32:51,676 --> 00:32:53,716 Speaker 1: you were like, let's just all live on a bus 505 00:32:53,756 --> 00:32:56,516 Speaker 1: together and be together all the time, and then if 506 00:32:56,556 --> 00:32:58,636 Speaker 1: something bad happens to one of us, everyone else is there, 507 00:32:58,716 --> 00:33:01,596 Speaker 1: and it's all about my family and the people that 508 00:33:01,636 --> 00:33:04,796 Speaker 1: I love most in my life. And it feels like, 509 00:33:05,316 --> 00:33:08,476 Speaker 1: in quitting the Hot Young Widows Club and other things 510 00:33:08,516 --> 00:33:12,316 Speaker 1: that you decided to also stop doing, you're like slowly 511 00:33:12,356 --> 00:33:17,476 Speaker 1: building that bus. Yeah, we are, we are. It's like 512 00:33:19,636 --> 00:33:22,636 Speaker 1: the other day my husband actually left town, which he 513 00:33:22,716 --> 00:33:25,756 Speaker 1: rarely does because he's a stay at home parent, and 514 00:33:26,396 --> 00:33:29,636 Speaker 1: he went on a little trip with one of his 515 00:33:29,676 --> 00:33:33,276 Speaker 1: best friends since they were eighteen years old, and they 516 00:33:33,276 --> 00:33:35,596 Speaker 1: went to two shows at Red Rocks and he texted 517 00:33:35,636 --> 00:33:37,196 Speaker 1: me and he was like, I just can't wait to 518 00:33:37,196 --> 00:33:40,956 Speaker 1: get home because I love being around our family. I 519 00:33:41,036 --> 00:33:43,236 Speaker 1: was like, dude, me too, That's how I feel like. 520 00:33:43,316 --> 00:33:48,636 Speaker 1: I just love being around our family. I love Friday 521 00:33:48,716 --> 00:33:52,236 Speaker 1: movie night. I love that you make waffles on Sunday, 522 00:33:52,756 --> 00:33:54,836 Speaker 1: And these were, by the way, all things that we 523 00:33:54,836 --> 00:33:59,156 Speaker 1: were doing the whole time that I just wasn't very 524 00:33:59,156 --> 00:34:02,036 Speaker 1: present for Like we've always done that, that's always been 525 00:34:02,076 --> 00:34:05,716 Speaker 1: a thing, But it's like, I'm really working on being 526 00:34:05,756 --> 00:34:09,716 Speaker 1: really present for the lives of the people that I 527 00:34:09,756 --> 00:34:14,316 Speaker 1: know and love. Do you feel that I don't know 528 00:34:14,316 --> 00:34:16,116 Speaker 1: how to phrase this. It's kind of like, how do 529 00:34:16,156 --> 00:34:20,396 Speaker 1: you grieve Aaron today? Because for a period there you're 530 00:34:20,476 --> 00:34:25,716 Speaker 1: grieving him, in part at least through these expressions of 531 00:34:25,756 --> 00:34:29,156 Speaker 1: love for others, right through the support group, through all 532 00:34:29,156 --> 00:34:33,756 Speaker 1: of the activities and fundraisers and events that you're putting on, 533 00:34:33,796 --> 00:34:36,876 Speaker 1: and so I just wonder how you think about that. Yeah, 534 00:34:36,916 --> 00:34:39,516 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think about him every single day. 535 00:34:39,596 --> 00:34:40,956 Speaker 1: I don't know if there will ever be a day 536 00:34:40,956 --> 00:34:42,356 Speaker 1: where I don't think about him. I don't know if 537 00:34:42,356 --> 00:34:43,876 Speaker 1: there will ever be a day where I don't say 538 00:34:43,916 --> 00:34:49,516 Speaker 1: his name. I mean, we have a child together. It's 539 00:34:49,516 --> 00:34:51,196 Speaker 1: so hard to explain that kind of what it means 540 00:34:51,276 --> 00:34:54,516 Speaker 1: to grieve because it's not like every day I'm like, oh, 541 00:34:54,956 --> 00:34:57,596 Speaker 1: stab me in the heart, but like every day there's 542 00:34:57,636 --> 00:35:06,756 Speaker 1: something worth remembering, and there always will be. You know, 543 00:35:07,356 --> 00:35:12,996 Speaker 1: the label widow is such a loaded, hard identity to navigate, 544 00:35:13,276 --> 00:35:17,916 Speaker 1: and in part it's because it tethers you to a 545 00:35:17,996 --> 00:35:20,396 Speaker 1: part of your past, but more importantly, to a specific 546 00:35:20,476 --> 00:35:23,756 Speaker 1: person who you loved in your past. Yea. And so, 547 00:35:24,076 --> 00:35:26,836 Speaker 1: as we've talked about, rejecting that label in any form 548 00:35:27,156 --> 00:35:30,396 Speaker 1: can feel like a betrayal. Yea. The emotional cost of 549 00:35:30,556 --> 00:35:34,396 Speaker 1: disentangling yourself from that identity just feel so high. I 550 00:35:34,476 --> 00:35:37,156 Speaker 1: wonder if you have for those listening who have lost 551 00:35:37,556 --> 00:35:40,436 Speaker 1: a loved one and maybe they don't carry the word widow. 552 00:35:40,836 --> 00:35:42,956 Speaker 1: Maybe they've lost someone else they love, maybe they've lost 553 00:35:42,996 --> 00:35:45,236 Speaker 1: a child, maybe they lost a grandmother, maybe they've lost 554 00:35:45,236 --> 00:35:48,956 Speaker 1: a friend. But I just wonder how you think about 555 00:35:49,556 --> 00:35:51,436 Speaker 1: these labels and what they do to us, and how 556 00:35:51,436 --> 00:35:55,116 Speaker 1: they can, I don't know, hold us back and imprison 557 00:35:55,196 --> 00:35:58,076 Speaker 1: us at times when we actually just need to be free. 558 00:35:59,276 --> 00:36:04,956 Speaker 1: I think that it's very important to me that it 559 00:36:05,156 --> 00:36:07,396 Speaker 1: was since the minute Erin got sick, right, that we 560 00:36:07,996 --> 00:36:11,196 Speaker 1: that everyone is the owner of their own story. That 561 00:36:11,276 --> 00:36:14,076 Speaker 1: Aaron was not just a cancer story, lard love story 562 00:36:14,156 --> 00:36:16,996 Speaker 1: was not just a cancer story. That you know, his 563 00:36:17,156 --> 00:36:19,076 Speaker 1: life is not just like, oh, you know, any cancer, 564 00:36:19,556 --> 00:36:24,836 Speaker 1: and the headline of your story changes as life goes on. 565 00:36:25,716 --> 00:36:29,076 Speaker 1: So there absolutely was a period of time in life 566 00:36:29,236 --> 00:36:32,516 Speaker 1: where the most important thing that I could relate to 567 00:36:32,556 --> 00:36:36,716 Speaker 1: somebody was that my husband died. They needed to know that, 568 00:36:36,756 --> 00:36:38,996 Speaker 1: and that needed to be the first thing that they 569 00:36:39,076 --> 00:36:43,236 Speaker 1: knew because that was the most important thing about me 570 00:36:43,316 --> 00:36:45,716 Speaker 1: to me in that moment. It's a bullet point now, 571 00:36:47,036 --> 00:36:50,436 Speaker 1: and that's okay. It is not a value judgment. It 572 00:36:50,476 --> 00:36:53,676 Speaker 1: does not mean it means less. It is not the 573 00:36:53,716 --> 00:36:58,276 Speaker 1: most important part of my identity anymore. Widow is a label, 574 00:36:58,316 --> 00:37:00,996 Speaker 1: and it's one I'm really glad that I embraced. Like 575 00:37:01,036 --> 00:37:02,916 Speaker 1: I still have that label. It's just not going to 576 00:37:02,996 --> 00:37:06,956 Speaker 1: be the first thing on my name tag. Yeah yeah. 577 00:37:07,116 --> 00:37:12,796 Speaker 1: Reflecting back, Norah, I'm wondering what this experience has taught 578 00:37:12,836 --> 00:37:21,196 Speaker 1: you about grief. Grief is so chaotic, and it is 579 00:37:21,276 --> 00:37:26,876 Speaker 1: so dark and lonely and disorienting that I can recognize 580 00:37:26,876 --> 00:37:34,396 Speaker 1: in another person this reflexive need to build something out 581 00:37:34,436 --> 00:37:37,916 Speaker 1: of the rubble of your life or your loss. I 582 00:37:38,036 --> 00:37:40,476 Speaker 1: felt that so immediately, like I want to build are 583 00:37:40,476 --> 00:37:42,396 Speaker 1: in a pyramid? What can I build from? What can 584 00:37:42,436 --> 00:37:45,996 Speaker 1: I build that shows, like the world, how big this 585 00:37:46,236 --> 00:37:48,676 Speaker 1: was to me, what this means to me, something that 586 00:37:48,676 --> 00:37:52,956 Speaker 1: can be seen from the stars. People reach out to 587 00:37:52,956 --> 00:37:56,716 Speaker 1: me all the time and they say, my brother just died, 588 00:37:56,716 --> 00:37:57,996 Speaker 1: and I want to do this thing. I want to 589 00:37:57,996 --> 00:37:59,876 Speaker 1: write this book. I want to start this nonprofit. I 590 00:37:59,876 --> 00:38:03,036 Speaker 1: want to run a thousand miles. My husband and my grandma. 591 00:38:03,316 --> 00:38:05,956 Speaker 1: I lost someone, I lost something. I lost something so big, 592 00:38:05,956 --> 00:38:07,756 Speaker 1: and I need to make something out of it. And 593 00:38:07,796 --> 00:38:14,316 Speaker 1: I say to them, stop, because what if the only 594 00:38:14,356 --> 00:38:17,196 Speaker 1: thing that you have to do, the only thing that 595 00:38:17,236 --> 00:38:22,276 Speaker 1: you absolutely have to do, is just survive. What if 596 00:38:22,276 --> 00:38:26,156 Speaker 1: that's it? What if that's it. What if that's the 597 00:38:26,236 --> 00:38:28,396 Speaker 1: only thing that you need to do in the wake 598 00:38:28,436 --> 00:38:32,036 Speaker 1: of loss. What if that is big enough and meaningful enough. 599 00:38:33,076 --> 00:39:14,476 Speaker 1: Because it is. Hey, thanks so much for listening. Next week, 600 00:39:14,516 --> 00:39:18,156 Speaker 1: we hear from the US Surgeon General, doctor Vivekmoorthy on 601 00:39:18,236 --> 00:39:22,076 Speaker 1: the science of loneliness. Our nation's doctor tells us how 602 00:39:22,156 --> 00:39:25,196 Speaker 1: dangerous loneliness can be for our health and gives us 603 00:39:25,196 --> 00:39:30,876 Speaker 1: strategies for building stronger, more meaningful social connections. The mortality 604 00:39:30,956 --> 00:39:35,636 Speaker 1: impact of loneliness, in fact, is comparable to the mortality 605 00:39:35,636 --> 00:39:39,316 Speaker 1: impact of smoking. Fifteen cigarettes a day. It's even greater 606 00:39:39,516 --> 00:39:42,756 Speaker 1: than the mortality impact that we see with substance use disorders. 607 00:39:43,156 --> 00:39:45,316 Speaker 1: Now just pause for a second and think about how 608 00:39:45,396 --> 00:39:49,196 Speaker 1: much time, effort, and energy we spend in combating smoking 609 00:39:49,436 --> 00:39:52,236 Speaker 1: and substance use disorders because of the extraordinary toll they 610 00:39:52,236 --> 00:39:55,956 Speaker 1: take on society. But think about how little we actually 611 00:39:55,996 --> 00:39:59,196 Speaker 1: tackle loneliness, or how much we little we invest in 612 00:39:59,396 --> 00:40:11,836 Speaker 1: thinking about our strategies for addressing it. A Slight Change 613 00:40:11,836 --> 00:40:14,876 Speaker 1: of Plans is created, written an executive produced by me 614 00:40:15,036 --> 00:40:19,356 Speaker 1: Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, 615 00:40:19,756 --> 00:40:24,636 Speaker 1: our story editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our sound engineer Andrew Vestola, 616 00:40:24,876 --> 00:40:29,116 Speaker 1: and our associate producer Sarah McCrae. Louis Skara wrote our 617 00:40:29,156 --> 00:40:32,356 Speaker 1: delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. 618 00:40:33,076 --> 00:40:36,076 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 619 00:40:36,156 --> 00:40:39,476 Speaker 1: So big thanks to everyone there, and of course a 620 00:40:39,756 --> 00:40:43,316 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A 621 00:40:43,356 --> 00:40:46,476 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker. 622 00:40:47,076 --> 00:41:10,476 Speaker 1: See you next week. Hey nors Hi, Oh my god, 623 00:41:10,476 --> 00:41:12,716 Speaker 1: that nickname. How much do you hate being called Norris. 624 00:41:12,916 --> 00:41:15,876 Speaker 1: I love being called that. No one says that except 625 00:41:16,036 --> 00:41:18,756 Speaker 1: my mom, my sister, and my dead husband. That is 626 00:41:18,796 --> 00:41:21,116 Speaker 1: so magical that you did that. I just felt it, 627 00:41:21,156 --> 00:41:23,636 Speaker 1: felt it felt good. You were too comfortable with each 628 00:41:23,636 --> 00:41:25,276 Speaker 1: other for me to call you Nora, so I was 629 00:41:25,316 --> 00:41:27,596 Speaker 1: just going to lean in with Norris. Sorry. Oh, I 630 00:41:27,756 --> 00:41:28,156 Speaker 1: love it.