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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Democrats have retained two seats in

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Speaker 1: Virginia's General Assembly after winning a pair of special elections.

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Speaker 1: By you'll be surprised to hear those significant margins. We

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Speaker 1: have such a great show for you today. The Atlantic

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Speaker 1: Zone and Apple Bounce stops by to talk about the

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Speaker 1: increasingly fascist actions of the Trump administration. Then we'll talk

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Speaker 1: to The New York Times is Lulu Garcia Navarro about

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Speaker 1: all of the complexities in Venezuela and how Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: has no plan to deal with them. But first we

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Speaker 1: have the news.

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Speaker 2: So Molly, we now see that five blue states have

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Speaker 2: had their childcare frozen because a influencer did a bunch

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Speaker 2: of proper ganda on old reporting. And now, as always,

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Speaker 2: Republicans take this propaganda and run with it and make

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Speaker 2: policy applications that are going to really, really, really destroy

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Speaker 2: people's lives. There's times we talk about things on this

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Speaker 2: podcast that are going to hurt people.

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Speaker 3: This is going to stab people in the chest.

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Speaker 1: But they're threatening. They haven't done it yet.

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Speaker 3: He told the states he's going to do it if

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Speaker 3: he does.

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Speaker 1: It, okay, So I just want to make that clear.

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Speaker 1: They're threatening to do it now. Trump loves this threat.

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Speaker 1: It may or may not happen. I think there's certainly

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Speaker 1: evident he's frozen the funds in Minnesota, despite the fact

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Speaker 1: that this was from twenty twenty two. I want to

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Speaker 1: go back and talk about the Minnesota fraud for a

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Speaker 1: minute because I think it's important. The Bulwork had a

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Speaker 1: really good article about this. This was COVID era of fraud. Again,

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Speaker 1: we saw a lot of financial malfeasance during COVID.

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Speaker 3: A lot a lot inside the Trump administration.

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Speaker 1: Oh for sure. And they were COVID loans forgiven every

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Speaker 1: which way, and a lot of people made money on

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Speaker 1: money that was supposed to just keep people from losing everything. Now,

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Speaker 1: want to talk about this fraud for another minute, because

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Speaker 1: what's important here is that these were programs that were

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Speaker 1: not part of the federal government. They were private contractors.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's important because there has been a

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Speaker 1: lot of Republican propaganda that's focused on the idea that

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Speaker 1: the government is filled with fraud, waste, and abuse. Now,

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Speaker 1: what we saw when Elon mush took over DOGE was

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Speaker 1: that DOGE had some trouble finding fraud, wasted abuse, and

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Speaker 1: in fact they ended up costing way more money trying

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Speaker 1: to save money than they actually did. These were private

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Speaker 1: contractors who overbuild, They built for services that were never delivered.

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Speaker 1: That is different and I think important because one of

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Speaker 1: the things Republicans love to talk about is the idea

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Speaker 1: that you should privatize things that the gun government can do. Right,

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Speaker 1: They want you to privatize, you know, they say, well,

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Speaker 1: the government shouldn't be responsible for healthcare, we should have

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Speaker 1: private companies do it. Private sector is better for things.

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Speaker 1: And what we're seeing here is a really good example

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Speaker 1: of how actually government daycare centers. You know, we don't

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Speaker 1: see public schools to frauding the federal government, and this

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Speaker 1: is another example of that. So it's a private contractor

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Speaker 1: taking money from the government to provide services it never provided,

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Speaker 1: and that I think is important too. So again, was

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Speaker 1: there fraud, Yes, there was fraud. Was that fraud committed

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Speaker 1: by the government. It was committed by a private contractor

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Speaker 1: who should have had more government oversight. Should all childcare

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Speaker 1: be canceled at the state level? Obviously not, But is

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Speaker 1: it worth thinking about how maybe the government should be

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Speaker 1: providing you know, should schools be providing child care at

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Speaker 1: times when there isn't school Could the government be doing

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Speaker 1: these things instead of having a private contractor doing them maybe?

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Speaker 1: And should the government have greater accountability when it comes

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Speaker 1: to giving money to private contractors? One hundred percent it's

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Speaker 1: wrong to dismiss fraud. And I think that there was

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Speaker 1: really this really smart article in New York Times about

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Speaker 1: how democrats they can't just dismiss allegations. They need to

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Speaker 1: go through and sort of examine them. But in this case,

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Speaker 1: this was a crime that had been prosecuted. They were

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Speaker 1: something like thirty one people ended up going to jail.

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Speaker 1: Like this was not ignored. This was just that these

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Speaker 1: wealthy people and these internet people hadn't seen the reporting

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Speaker 1: until this guy did this.

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Speaker 2: More greatly, this guy was so inept at reporting in

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Speaker 2: journalism that he's going to these doors and when people

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Speaker 2: aren't letting him in because they don't like a bunch

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Speaker 2: of young guys going where children are and letting them in.

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Speaker 2: In this modern era, that is not a thing that

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Speaker 2: they don't want you to see what's inside. That's that

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Speaker 2: they look like creepy weirdos.

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Speaker 1: Right. This is not a person who has investigative you know,

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Speaker 1: credentials or any kind of investigative training, right, he just

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Speaker 1: is an influencer.

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Speaker 2: We also saw in post production he blacked out signs

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Speaker 2: on the building saying that they were permanently closed. So

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Speaker 2: we could manipulate this and make propaganda, because that's what

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Speaker 2: this guy has been about. He's made propaganda for the

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Speaker 2: administration for quite a while. Okay, So one of you

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Speaker 2: on Musk's favorite sayings concerning Energy Secretary Chris Wright says

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Speaker 2: the US will definitely take over Venezuela and oil sales

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Speaker 2: and revenue.

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Speaker 1: So Chris Wright is the first administration official to acknowledge

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Speaker 1: that US oil companies are unlikely to immediately invest in

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Speaker 1: Venezuela as Trump said they would. So here we go.

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Speaker 1: Trump said that oil companies were going to rebuild Venezuela.

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Speaker 1: He said that the tax dollars that they would rebuild

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Speaker 1: it and then the oil would pay for itself, I

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Speaker 1: mean whatever, and that American taxpayers would make money. American

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Speaker 1: taxpayers never make money in international adventures. That never happens.

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Speaker 1: That never happens, and it never will happen. So here's

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Speaker 1: what is likely going to happen. These US companies, and

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Speaker 1: we've talked to a number of people have said this,

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Speaker 1: and your US companies don't want to go into Venezuela

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Speaker 1: because it's not very safe and they can't guarantee safety

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Speaker 1: for their people. So someone is going to have to

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Speaker 1: go into Venezuela to get this oil that Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: somehow wants to take from Venezuela. And I don't know

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Speaker 1: who that's going to be, but it doesn't seem like

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Speaker 1: it's going to be good for anyone at all. And also,

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Speaker 1: I want to point out, and I think this is

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Speaker 1: really germane, is that Trump is obsessed with oil, and

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Speaker 1: Trump is obsessed with the things that were important in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. Oil is not as valuable as it was.

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Speaker 1: You know, it is not the most effective or cheap

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Speaker 1: way to do things, or at least it won't be soon.

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Speaker 1: It still captures much of Trump's imagination.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of things that captured Trump's imagination the twenty twenty election,

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Speaker 2: they have a new White House web page that rewrites

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Speaker 2: history on the January sixth Capitol riot. You'll be shocked

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Speaker 2: to hear at whitewashes the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this administration is obsessed with propaganda. And one of

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Speaker 1: the many ways that they are obsessed with propaganda's like

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Speaker 1: what we talked about before with the Nick Shirley guy,

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Speaker 1: you know, doing these videos where then we have Minnesota

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Speaker 1: is involved in fraud and Tim Wallas is involved in fraud.

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Speaker 1: We know he's not. We know that these fraudsters were

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Speaker 1: actually prosecuted under Biden. But again it's more about this

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Speaker 1: sort of changing the narrative, controlling the narrative whether or

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Speaker 1: not it's true. So here we have the White House

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Speaker 1: has a web page that rewrites history of January sixth,

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Speaker 1: Capital riot and twenty twenty election. This web page, now

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Speaker 1: basically you want to know the truth, get your facts.

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Speaker 1: Here is what was the introduction to it from Stephen Chung,

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Speaker 1: who is a person who has used words like truth

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Speaker 1: teller to describe Donald Trump. He uses the word truth,

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Speaker 1: he stretches it, and it doesn't talk about so much

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Speaker 1: of what actually happened on January sixth. Reason they're doing

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Speaker 1: this is because part of Trump is part of the

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Speaker 1: authoritarian strong man's stuff, is this obsession with changing the narrative,

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Speaker 1: with changing history, with creating a world that never existed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, in a shocking turn, Wyoming, known for being

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Speaker 2: the most lefty place on earth, they have upheld the

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Speaker 2: country's first abortion pill bin and there's still access to

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Speaker 2: abortion bills in Wyoming now.

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Speaker 1: So this is a state supreme court and this is

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Speaker 1: this law that was passed to undermine Obamacare. So these

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Speaker 1: judges ruled four to one the two laws banning abortion,

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Speaker 1: including the country's first ban and abortion pills, violated this

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Speaker 1: state constitution. Banning abortion pills would mean I don't know

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Speaker 1: how you would do that. I guess you'd have to

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Speaker 1: check all the mail. Okay, I don't know how you

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Speaker 1: do that. So they're saying it violates the state constitution,

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Speaker 1: specifically an amendment ensuring that each competent adult should have

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Speaker 1: the right to make his or our own healthcare decisions.

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Speaker 1: So that was something they had used to undermine Obamacare.

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Speaker 1: So right now actually is pretty interesting. Abortion is now

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Speaker 1: legal in Wyoming.

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Speaker 4: Again.

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Speaker 1: I think while the justices conceded that the amendment hadn't

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Speaker 1: been intended to apply to abortion, they determined it was

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Speaker 1: not their job to add words to the state constitution. I

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Speaker 1: think that what we're seeing here is that Republicans are

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Speaker 1: overplaying their hand. This administration has really run a foul

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Speaker 1: with libertarians, and that's because they've gone so hard after

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Speaker 1: personal liberties, and that is what we're seeing here right.

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Speaker 1: These people are not pro choice necessarily, but they are

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Speaker 1: against sort of the prob big brother van of this administration,

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Speaker 1: which is quite Fulsome We have exciting news over at

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Speaker 1: our YouTube channel. The second episode from our Project twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty nine series is out now. It's a reimagining where

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Speaker 1: we examine what went wrong with democrats approach to politics

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Speaker 1: and how we can correct it and deliver changes to

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Speaker 1: help people's lives. The first episode dove into the very

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Speaker 1: sexy topic of campaign finance reform, and our second episode

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Speaker 1: deals with an even sexier topic, antitrust and regulation. We

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Speaker 1: look at how antitrust and regulation can protect American citizens

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Speaker 1: and make America thrive in an era of rampant corruption

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Speaker 1: and predatory crony capitalism. We talk to the smartest names

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Speaker 1: in the field like Lena Kahan, el Vero Bedoya, Elizabeth Wilkins,

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Speaker 1: and Doha Mecki. Republicans were prepared for when they got

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Speaker 1: the levers of power. We need Democrats to be too,

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Speaker 1: so please head over to YouTube and search Mollie John

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Speaker 1: Fast Project twenty twenty nine, or go to the Fast

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Speaker 1: Politics YouTube channel and find it there and help us

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Speaker 1: spread the word. And Applebaum is a writer at the

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Speaker 1: Atlantic and the author of Autocracy, Inc. The Dictators Who

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Speaker 1: Want to Run the World. Welcome back to Fast Politics

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Speaker 1: in Applebam.

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Speaker 5: Thank you, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: There's so much going on in the world, and the

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Speaker 1: first thing I wanted you to talk about was Europe

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Speaker 1: and how they are dealing with first Venezuela and then

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Speaker 1: they just completely unhinged. You know, we're gone for Greenland next.

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Speaker 1: Because this must feel so wild too, I mean, destructive, disturbing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I just wonder what it's like there.

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Speaker 5: So to be fair, this is this is a process

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Speaker 5: and actually from starting really from JD. Vance's speech at

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Speaker 5: the Munich Conference Security here and continuing with Donald Trump's

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Speaker 5: attack on Zelensky in the Oval office and a whole

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Speaker 5: series of other things that have happened. This is more

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Speaker 5: It's not like this is the shock, you know, It's more,

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Speaker 5: this is the this is a kind of new level,

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Speaker 5: you know, kind of culmination, rather than rather than something

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Speaker 5: being totally new, I mean, the people have different levels

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Speaker 5: of awareness. I mean, if you're in politics all the time,

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Speaker 5: then you are not so surprised. A lot of more

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Speaker 5: ordinary people are surprised. And I think it's important to

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Speaker 5: talk about Venezuela and Greenland together because actually the President

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Speaker 5: has explained them as being part of the same philosophy

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Speaker 5: and principle. You know, that we get to dominate our

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Speaker 5: hemisphere and not for any particular reason, but just because

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Speaker 5: we can. And that's the principle of I don't know

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Speaker 5: what it's called psychosphere of influence, the dun Rao dactor. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: just because we can and not necessarily for mean, you know,

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Speaker 5: the interesting thing about both Venezuela and Greenland is that

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Speaker 5: Trump has struggled to justify them and explain them. You know, first,

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Speaker 5: there's a there's a supposedly a legal case against Maduro,

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Speaker 5: but Trump's not very interested in that. You know, Madurea

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Speaker 5: was a bad guy. I wrote in my book Autocracy, Inc.

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Speaker 5: I have almost a whole chapter on Maduro and how

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Speaker 5: corrupt he is and his system of corruption with other

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Speaker 5: dictators and so on. But Trump's not very interested in

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Speaker 5: that either, and instead, what he's really interested in his oil.

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Speaker 5: And we're going to go to Venezuela and take the oil.

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Speaker 5: And the Greenland thing is even weirder because actually, anything

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Speaker 5: that the United States might want to do in Greenland,

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Speaker 5: like keep soldiers there or drill for minerals there, they

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Speaker 5: can do now with in conjunction with Denmark. You know,

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Speaker 5: there's a US base there right now. They're US soldiers

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Speaker 5: in Denton in Greenland, and any US company that wants

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Speaker 5: to get a license and dig for things in Greenland.

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Speaker 5: And by the way, it's very very difficult to dig

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Speaker 5: for things in green expenses. Yeah, and there's a lot

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Speaker 5: of ice, and so that makes it makes it very difficult,

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Speaker 5: and it's very discouraging for US companies apparently, who are

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Speaker 5: very few of whom are there right now. So all

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Speaker 5: of it is there's no there there, there's no reason

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Speaker 5: for it. And so what's disturbing I think most to

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Speaker 5: Europeans is this complete irrationality, and I guess people use

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Speaker 5: the words like kafka esque. When I was there last year,

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Speaker 5: the Danes told me that even in a private conversation

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Speaker 5: with the Danish Prime minister, Trump was unable to articulate

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Speaker 5: what he needs Greenland for, So he couldn't explain it,

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Speaker 5: and so it's very hard to know how to respond

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Speaker 5: to this kind of madness. You know, I think they're

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Speaker 5: they're moving to a new phase. I mean, I think

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Speaker 5: they were trying to solve things with you know, quiet diplomacy,

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Speaker 5: and we'll talk about it privately and you will now

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Speaker 5: see you heard it. There was a big statement from

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Speaker 5: a group of European leaders yesterday and you will see

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Speaker 5: more of that now. I think the Danes are going

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Speaker 5: to come to the US and make their case to Congress.

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Speaker 5: I hope they will anyway, and maybe they'll make the

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Speaker 5: case to Americans because the other oddity here is I mean,

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Speaker 5: maybe mall you feel the pulse of America better than

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Speaker 5: I do. But is there like a mass desire to

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Speaker 5: conquer Greenland among Americans? Well, this is I don't feel

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Speaker 5: that there is, and so maybe that maybe they can

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Speaker 5: appeal to that. But the sense is almost like it's

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Speaker 5: like someone has died, you know, and there's the stages

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Speaker 5: of grief. You know, there was anger and you know,

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Speaker 5: fear and you know, and now we're at a new

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Speaker 5: stage of Okay, we need action and we need to

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Speaker 5: think about the world differently. Without an American ally.

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Speaker 1: So this is straight. This is something I have thought

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Speaker 1: about and I actually said this on Friday as why

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Speaker 1: I thought they wouldn't go into Venezuela, which is that

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Speaker 1: the administration had done almost no work trying to sell

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Speaker 1: any of this to the American people, and since MAGA

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Speaker 1: had been sold, you know, the one of the very

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Speaker 1: few tenants of MAGA was anti interventionist, Right, we're going

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Speaker 1: to end foreign wars. That that was the one way

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Speaker 1: in which Trump was different than previous Republicans was he

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Speaker 1: didn't believe in democracy building. And he still doesn't believe

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Speaker 1: in democracy building. But is he so powerful that he

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Speaker 1: doesn't need to sell things?

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Speaker 5: Well, he's justified this is it's not really war, it's

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Speaker 5: just plunder and restortion. I mean the language they're using,

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Speaker 5: we're going to run Venezuela, We're going to take Venezuela's oil,

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Speaker 5: We're going to control Venezuela's oil exports indefinitely. You know,

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Speaker 5: all of which, also, by the way, lacks any sense

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Speaker 5: of its disconnected from reality. I mean, it's you know,

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Speaker 5: to get oil out of the ground. Oil doesn't just

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Speaker 5: lie on the ground and you swoop in a black

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Speaker 5: helicopter and take it away. I mean, you have to

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Speaker 5: drill for it, and you need contracts, and you need

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Speaker 5: employees and long term relationships. I mean, I don't I

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Speaker 5: don't understand how they imagine this is going to work

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Speaker 5: in a long for the long term. But may you know,

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Speaker 5: it seems that their justification is plunder. You know, we're

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Speaker 5: going to steal a lot of stuff, and people around

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump will get rich and maybe some will trickle

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Speaker 5: down to Americans. Maybe that's good enough for his supporters.

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a moment we're right now. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that I was struck by was I didn't

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Speaker 1: think from the people I've talked to that Europeans understand

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Speaker 1: just how unpopular Trump is. Do you think that's right?

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Speaker 5: That's I mean, it's possible. You know, they don't see

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Speaker 5: the full range of the American debate. Europeans are always

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Speaker 5: asking me why don't Americans say anything? You know, why

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Speaker 5: don't they push back? And I say they do. You know,

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Speaker 5: people are screaming and shouting all the time. And some

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Speaker 5: of them say to me, oh, I've seen you know,

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Speaker 5: they follow me on Instagram or someone, or you're so

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Speaker 5: brave for speaking out I'm like, no, I'm one of many.

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Speaker 5: You don't need special bravery to talk. And you know,

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Speaker 5: at the moment, so they don't see the spectrum of

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Speaker 5: the debate, and all they see is Trump doing this

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Speaker 5: stuff and getting away with it. So yeah, it's possible

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Speaker 5: they think he's more popular. And I think once there's

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Speaker 5: a real demonstration of his unpopularity, maybe after the mid terms,

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Speaker 5: maybe there'll be another moment. Then you'll also begin to

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Speaker 5: get another shift in Europe. I mean, up until now,

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Speaker 5: the idea has been we're going to accommodate him, you know,

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Speaker 5: will humor him, you know this, you know, some Swiss

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Speaker 5: business and brought him a gold bar. You know, we'll

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Speaker 5: give him some presents. Well, you know, the British invited

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Speaker 5: him to, you know, have dinner with the king, that

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Speaker 5: kind of thing. And that's the been the idea so far.

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Speaker 5: And I think there were coming to the moment when

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Speaker 5: they were that's not working. You'll see different kind of behavior.

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Speaker 5: And I can't I can't predict it because these everything's

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Speaker 5: still too fluid. But I mean, I don't know. Sanctions

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Speaker 5: on members of the administration who you know, who want

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Speaker 5: to illegally take greenland which is by the way, the

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Speaker 5: Greenlanders are Danish citizens. They vote in Danish elections. There

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Speaker 5: are Greenland members of the Danish Parliament. Maybe sanctions, maybe

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Speaker 5: you know, banning companies.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I mean there's a range of options that begin to

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Speaker 5: be available once the United States is defined that way.

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Speaker 5: I mean nobody. But the other strange thing is I say,

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Speaker 5: is nobody wants that to happen. Nobody wants to be

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Speaker 5: enemies of America. There's no pleasure in that or no

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Speaker 5: advantage anyone. It's just sad and it's just a huge cost.

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Speaker 5: It's just it feels like a tragedy. That's why I said,

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Speaker 5: it's like someone died.

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Speaker 1: There's also on the table banning American citizens from going

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Speaker 1: to Europe, which I want to talk about the Venezuelan

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Speaker 1: action because it happened during what is Christmas school holidays

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Speaker 1: here and many people of the affluent variety, who are

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Speaker 1: the people who make Trump's friend group, who are really

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Speaker 1: you know, if there's going to be anyone who runs

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Speaker 1: a check on Trump at this point, it's certainly not

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Speaker 1: going to be Republicans in Congress, and it's not going

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Speaker 1: to be Republicans in the Senate, and it's not going

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Speaker 1: to be the Supreme Court. It might be one or

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Speaker 1: two of his very rich donor fronts. And some of

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Speaker 1: those donor friends were actually trapped in the Caribbean because

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Speaker 1: they had to close the airspace. And I wonder if

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Speaker 1: something like making its own Americans can't go to Europe,

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Speaker 1: would you know? People were furious. They were they didn't

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Speaker 1: understand why that needed to happen. And I think in

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Speaker 1: some ways, you know, much of trump Ism is about

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Speaker 1: making his very rich friends happy.

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Speaker 5: I mean that's like, you know, that was why we

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Speaker 5: put sanctions on Russian oligers right at the beginning of

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Speaker 5: the Ukraine War. I mean sanctions on American oligurics. I mean,

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Speaker 5: if we if we got to that, I mean that

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Speaker 5: you're right that that could be very pain I don't

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Speaker 5: I don't see the Europeans banning all American travel. I mean,

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Speaker 5: that's it's lucrative, but it's the Europeans like Americans, you

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Speaker 5: know what I mean, But it is it could be

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Speaker 5: an effective threat. We'll see. I mean, I don't want

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Speaker 5: to speak because I you know, this this is this

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Speaker 5: is this is this kind of conversation is literally just

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Speaker 5: beginning this week, right like up until now, it's been

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Speaker 5: how do we get along with them? How do we

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Speaker 5: deal with it? How do we manage it? How do

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Speaker 5: we you know, how do we make sure there's no

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Speaker 5: disaster in Ukraine? I mean that's been this sort of

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Speaker 5: you know that the idea that the US is actually

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Speaker 5: a hostile actor hadn't really sunk in yet, and the

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Speaker 5: idea that we would have to do something against the

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Speaker 5: United States hadn't happened yet.

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Speaker 1: I feel like you and I have talked about worst

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Speaker 1: case scenarios end lessly. We've you've been very correct about

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Speaker 1: many of them. But did you see something like this.

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Speaker 5: The Greenland thing? I wrote about it a year ago.

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Speaker 5: I went to Denmark last January, actually, and I did

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Speaker 5: worry that this was on the back burner and that

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Speaker 5: it was coming. And I had worried about the language

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Speaker 5: that they use about Europe and the not really Trump

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Speaker 5: so much as the people around him, and that the

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Speaker 5: threat to NATO was pretty was pretty existential. I mean,

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Speaker 5: I didn't know that I foresaw this exact scenario with

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Speaker 5: the kidnap of Nicholas Maduro leading to Stephen Miller saying,

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Speaker 5: now we need Greenland it's next. No, I didn't. I

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Speaker 5: can't claim it. I mean, it's so insane. It's because

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Speaker 5: it's so insane. But the momentum in this direction has

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Speaker 5: been coming for a while. As I say, it starts

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Speaker 5: a year ago. It starts with talking him talking about

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Speaker 5: Greenland last January and December January, and then it starts

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Speaker 5: with Vance going to Munich and attacking Europeans instead of

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Speaker 5: talking about European security.

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Speaker 1: When you look at what's happening in Greenland, it does

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Speaker 1: seem like the most effective way to mess up NATO.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, no, no, I mean, in a way, it's

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Speaker 5: more effective than the you know, than the than what

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Speaker 5: I thought was might happen, which was just a kind

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Speaker 5: of slow withdrawal or you know, tweeting something that made

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Speaker 5: NATO not credible anymore. I mean, it's actually attacking a

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Speaker 5: NATO member. Remember, it would stipulated. Hasn't happened yet, right,

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Speaker 5: we have nothing.

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Speaker 1: Nothing's happened, right, and it may never happen because and

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Speaker 1: it may never have that step that he doesn't do

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Speaker 1: all the time.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, it may never happen. But yeah, that would

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Speaker 5: be that would be very effective. I mean, and also

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Speaker 5: it's not just any native memory. Maybe you know, Greece

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Speaker 5: and Turkey have have squabbled before, and there are other

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Speaker 5: there's tensions between other NATO members, that's happened before. But

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Speaker 5: the United States, which is the you know in the

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Speaker 5: United States, created NATO. I mean, it was there. It

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Speaker 5: was an American idea, it's an American project, It's served an

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Speaker 5: American purpose. It's been part of, you know, fundamental to

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Speaker 5: American security, not only in Europe, but elsewhere. I mean

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Speaker 5: the bases in Europe served in Middle East and Africa

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Speaker 5: and elsewhere, and the European allies have participated with the

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Speaker 5: US and all kinds of other projects, you know, not

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Speaker 5: only military, but other things. And the idea that the

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Speaker 5: United States would mess up its own alliance that, as

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Speaker 5: I say, it created to serve American peace and prosperity

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Speaker 5: is so insane that I think nobody predicted it could

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Speaker 5: happen exactly this way.

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00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk about it. Feels like

433
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: Trump in Venezuela, he is in a collision course with

434
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 1: Russia and China, two of his favorite you know, non

435
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: al I mean they're right, I mean, aren't Russia and

436
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 1: China intricately and even this tanker today. So how do

437
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 1: you think Trump negotiates that when he has so often

438
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 1: been clearly like a Putin I don't want to say

439
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: Putin fanboy, but a Putin fanboy, but a Putin fan boy.

440
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 5: Right, yeah, Well, I mean there are two ways to

441
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 5: look at this. One is that the language that Trump

442
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 5: has used about Venezuela and also about Greenland is the

443
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 5: kind of language that China would use if it were

444
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 5: going to invade Taiwan. So there is also a way

445
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 5: in which this kind of rapacious behavior gives licensed to

446
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 5: other people to do things that are rapacious. But you know,

447
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 5: so the so an invasion of Taiwan could easily you

448
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 5: could easily couch it in the same terms. You know,

449
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 5: we're we're going to arrest the leader or whatever. I mean,

450
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 5: I'm just speculating. So there's a way in which this

451
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 5: serves very much. I mean, the whole idea of spheres

452
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 5: of influence, that's you know, each US gets Western Hemisphere

453
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 5: and Russia gets Europe and China gets Aga. This was

454
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 5: a Russian idea. This has been a kind of Russian

455
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 5: geopolitical fantasy for many for a long time, and I

456
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 5: think they. I think probably they passed it to the

457
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 5: MAGA as well. I think that's where it comes from.

458
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 5: So there's a way in which this is good for them.

459
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 5: And there's you know, the famous story Fiona Hill, who

460
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 5: was one of Trump's advisors in the first term, did

461
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 5: in a in one when she was testifying. Has has

462
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 5: said publicly, and I corresponded with her a couple of

463
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 5: days ago on the same thing, has said publicly that

464
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 5: the Russians had made a weird to offer, like you

465
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 5: can have Venezuela if we can have Ukraine. I mean,

466
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 5: so the Russians see these things as having parallels. Having

467
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 5: said that, I mean, the Russians had billions of dollars

468
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 5: invested in Venezuela, and did the Chinese as the Iranians. Actually,

469
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 5: so there's a you know, Venezuela was a real you know,

470
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 5: it was a it was a kind of hub of

471
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 5: the of the auto for the autocratic world, you know.

472
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 5: And there's and apparently there's some not unrest, but I

473
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 5: mean flurry on the Russian Internet among the Russian nationalists

474
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 5: about how come we just lost all our assets in

475
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 5: Latin America and why aren't we doing anything about it.

476
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 5: So it's it's complicated. I mean both in a way

477
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 5: good for Russia and China because it gives them license

478
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 5: to do what they want. You know, they clearly just

479
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 5: lost an ally, although again we're on what day three

480
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 5: of this story, and there are a lot of things

481
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 5: that are going to still happen. Yeah, so we actually

482
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 5: the regime is still in charge there. You know, the

483
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 5: it's a it's a it's a country that does have

484
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 5: you know, different military groups who who could behave in

485
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 5: unpredictable ways. The Russians and the Chinese have pretty deep

486
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 5: roots there and friends, I mean, you know, to say

487
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 5: that all of a sudden overnight that's all gone, that

488
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 5: also misunderstands how the world works.

489
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's the same administration is there. The same

490
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 1: regime still runs Venezuela. It's just absolutely the same.

491
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 5: I mean, the only person who's gone is Maduro and

492
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 5: you know with his wife. No, no, it's the same regime.

493
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 5: And this in the last couple of days, they've been

494
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 5: arresting people. Right, they pass some kind of law saying

495
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 5: that you know, it's illegal to celebrate the exit of Maduro.

496
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 5: So right, it's that kind of country.

497
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,479
Speaker 1: There's been so much push out after that, you know,

498
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: after Venezuela, there's been so much you know, Stephen Miller

499
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 1: and Katie Miller talking about you know, and even Trump

500
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: talking about how they're gonna go you know, maybe they'll

501
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: go for other South American countries next, maybe they'll do Cuba.

502
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: Do you think this is like part of the authoritarian

503
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: strong man kind of saber rattling? I mean, how much

504
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: of that is that? Of of this? Even this just

505
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: this you know, coup in itself is part of like

506
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: saber rattling to try to seize power back when Trump

507
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: is sort of weakened and not as popular. I mean,

508
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: do you think that's some element here are now?

509
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 5: I'm sure? Yeah, I mean I'm sure it's some element.

510
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 6: You know.

511
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 5: It's the classic thing, right, I mean, if you're losing

512
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 5: at home, you do something spectacular abroad and you get

513
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 5: attention for that. I mean, I wonder whether in this

514
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 5: case it works. I Mean, it doesn't look like the

515
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 5: this you know, successful kidnapping of Maduro was that popular

516
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 5: in the US. I mean, it looks like some Republicans

517
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 5: approved of it, But I don't see, like, are there

518
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 5: people in the street calling for you know, praising the

519
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 5: US Army and calling for more invasions even Azuela. I

520
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 5: don't think so. And I don't think Greenland's going to

521
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 5: be popular at all. I mean, there's you know, there's

522
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 5: a bunch of ice up there, you know, and it's

523
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 5: not a very nice place, and you know, and there's

524
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 5: no historical American involvement in Greenland. It's not part of

525
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 5: our conscious memory or some you know, you know. I mean,

526
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 5: at least I guess sort of. There used to be

527
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 5: US companies in Venezuela. We have some relationship with Venezuela

528
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 5: over time. But Greenland, you know, I don't know, I

529
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 5: just don't see it. So I don't fully understand their

530
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 5: logic there either. I mean, is it meant to be popular?

531
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 5: And maybe it's meant to be a distraction. Maybe it's

532
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 5: meant to be disturbing. You know, maybe there are people

533
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 5: inside the Trump A registration who want to destroy NATO

534
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 5: and that's why they're doing it. I mean, you you know,

535
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,959
Speaker 5: you something this nuts and you start you start looking,

536
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 5: you know, I don't want to be conspiracy theorist, but

537
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 5: you start looking for weird explanations for a weird phenomenon.

538
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: And it isn't so weird to say, perhaps all of

539
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: this is just to distract from the Epstein files.

540
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 5: Maybe, I mean, for all I know, that's what it is.

541
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 5: Distract from the Epstein files, from us at home, Distract

542
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 5: from the fact that a lot of Americans are losing

543
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 5: their healthcare this month, to distract from, you know, the

544
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 5: growing gap between the you know, the unbelievably wealthy billionaires

545
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 5: who control huge chunk of our economy and everybody else.

546
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 5: I mean, there are a lot of things to distract

547
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 5: from at this point. To distract from Trump's declining health,

548
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 5: I don't know, you know, make it makes him look

549
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 5: stronger to be abroad, I mean, all those things have

550
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 5: to be taken into account. I mean, foreign policy people

551
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 5: want there to be some foreign policy explanation, you know,

552
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 5: we all want there to be a strategy that it's

553
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 5: explained by, you know, a theory. It's also the case

554
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 5: that with Trump a lot of what he does hasn't

555
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 5: There is no strategy. He just does a dramatic thing

556
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 5: that's designed to make him look like a winner. You know,

557
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 5: I won, you know, I achieve something, and he likes

558
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 5: these events. You know that where he seems to win.

559
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 5: And in any encounter he has, whether it's with a

560
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 5: journalist or anybody else or another head of state, he

561
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 5: has to win each each occasion, and he cares a

562
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 5: lot about that, and he's seems to care more about

563
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 5: it than connecting all the dots, you know, or having

564
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 5: a strategy or having a clear policy, even towards Russia,

565
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 5: which is a country that he seems to whose leader

566
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 5: he seems to admire.

567
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: And thank you so much for coming on. I just

568
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: I'm so glad to know where your head is at

569
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: and just so interesting and important.

570
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 5: So thank you, thank you, thank you, thanks for having me.

571
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: Lulu Garcia Navarro is a writer at The New York

572
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: Times and the co host of the Interview, and she's

573
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: also a CNN contributor. Welcome to Fast Politics, li Lin.

574
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 6: I am so excited to be here as a listener

575
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 6: and as a first time person who is on.

576
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: I am a listener of yours. So we have like

577
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: host interviewing host, which it can be. We'll see, we'll see,

578
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: we'll see. This is such a political story, the Venezuela story,

579
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: and so it is the beginning of an important political

580
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: story that reverberates through lots of different spheres that you

581
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: have either occupied or written about, And I want you

582
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: to first talk about like the one that came first,

583
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: which is that you grew up in Miami born to

584
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: Cuban parents, because I think there's so much of trump

585
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: ISM's second term that is dictated by the fact that

586
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: Miami and Florida and that you had Latino voters go

587
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: for Trump and a way they hadn't before. Just talk

588
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: us through what you see there that reverberates that you've

589
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: seen that is relevant.

590
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 4: So my family is relevant in two ways.

591
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 6: First of all, I am the daughter of Cuban immigrants

592
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 6: who fled Cuba in nineteen fifty nine after the revolution

593
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 6: that put Fidel Castro into power.

594
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 4: And then I'm also part Panamanian.

595
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 6: So I also did not experience directly because I was

596
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 6: living in the United States, but certainly my family experienced

597
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 6: the US invasion of Panama. And I'm just a Latin

598
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 6: American as generally. I covered Latin America for a long

599
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 6: time and PR and the Associated Press, So I just

600
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 6: have found this moment to be really revealing of just

601
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 6: a lot of the history that we have been living

602
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 6: through for such a long time, and what was so

603
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 6: striking to me is that I sort of want to

604
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 6: stop by that moment when you know, the news that

605
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 6: Madua had been taken in this audacious military attack broke.

606
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 6: I mean I heard it first from my mother, who

607
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 6: was ecstatic, who was just completely overjoyed. And this was

608
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 6: very early in the morning, and then throughout the day

609
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 6: I was in Miami and it was just one person

610
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 6: after another talking about the news.

611
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 4: It was just the talk of the town.

612
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 6: Everywhere you went, everyone was talking about it, and certainly

613
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 6: among the Cuban community, everyone was saying, Cuba's next, Cuba's next, Finally, finally,

614
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 6: Cuba will be free. And so there was just a

615
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 6: great deal of euphoria, and that was mimicked by the

616
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 6: Venezuelan community, which is a huge community also in Flow.

617
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 6: You saw celebrations on the street. You again saw people

618
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 6: just saying, thank God, thank God, you know, finally we

619
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 6: will get our country back. And then as the day

620
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 6: went on, there was another big moment, which is when

621
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 6: Trump comes out to give his press conference and everyone

622
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 6: was listening, everyone was watching. This was the moment where

623
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 6: they were going to get some clarity, and when he

624
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 6: came out and said we now run Venezuela. I think

625
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 6: everyone was in shock, followed by his dismissal of Maria

626
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 6: Corrina Machal, who is the head of the opposition, who

627
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 6: by all rights should be sort of the president of

628
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 6: that country because she was barred from running in the

629
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 6: last election, but certainly her proxy was voted in overwhelmingly

630
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 6: to have him dismiss her. I think sent a really

631
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 6: clear message that this was not going to be the

632
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 6: democratic revolution that they had been hoping for.

633
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: Everything you have just said is so interesting to me

634
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: because that is such a different experience, like the optimism

635
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: and the feeling thatnald Trump might be able to fix

636
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: the democracy problem, right, I mean, it's ultimately a problem

637
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: in Venezuela, and then the pivot to the realization that

638
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 1: this was actually just colonialism, right.

639
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I think listen, I think the jury's

640
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 6: still out for most of the exile communities, because they

641
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 6: certainly think that Maduro being in a US prison is wonderful.

642
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 6: They don't much care how it happened, and there is

643
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 6: a real sense that he has gotten his just desserts.

644
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 6: What I think has unfolded over the next days after

645
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 6: that pivotal day is what was going to happen inside

646
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 6: the country, right it became clear that they'd made a

647
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,919
Speaker 6: deal with the remnants of his regime, and Donald Trump

648
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,479
Speaker 6: has been saying that that those remnants are basically under

649
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 6: the thumb of the United States. But what we've seen

650
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 6: inside the country has not born that out, and so

651
00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 6: people are confused. People are wondering what's next and what

652
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,720
Speaker 6: it means. And I don't think that they've given up hope,

653
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 6: but I certainly don't think that there is this sense

654
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 6: that democracy will be riding on the back of a tank,

655
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 6: which I think is what many people wanted.

656
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 4: I mean, I have family.

657
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 6: Who was that I would pick up weapons and go

658
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,439
Speaker 6: fight if I thought the United States had my back,

659
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 6: because they feel so strongly about about these countries.

660
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: So this is a really interesting thing that you're describing

661
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: because it's so different than what American voters writ large want.

662
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, and maybe this is my own

663
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: personal piccadillo, but doesn't it feel like America's had so

664
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: little success nation building? I mean, tell me what you think.

665
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: This is an area you've really covered, so you really know,

666
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,479
Speaker 1: I mean, why do you think this hope comes from

667
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: and do you feel like South America is better off

668
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: from American intervention.

669
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 4: So that's a complicated question with lots of layers.

670
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 6: As you can imagine the history of US interventions in

671
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 6: Latin America, I always describe them as you know, you

672
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 6: have to take the long view because they might initially

673
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 6: seem successful, and you can see some that have been successful,

674
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 6: like Panama. I think Panama is the best case version

675
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 6: of that. And the reasons why Panama was different, which

676
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 6: I will touch on in a minute, but generally speaking,

677
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 6: when a country like the United States, which.

678
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,479
Speaker 4: All of these nations has a.

679
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 6: Very complicated relationship with I've lived in Colombia during Plan Colombia,

680
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 6: which was the United States's sort of more democratic effort,

681
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 6: if you will, to partner with Colombia in two thousand

682
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 6: under Bill Clinton to get rid of the drug trade there.

683
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 6: I lived in Mexico as the buer chief and saw

684
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 6: how that relationship worked. I also have lived in Brazil

685
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 6: and covered obviously Venezuela for many decades, and.

686
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 4: So what you see over time is an.

687
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 6: Area of the world that really struggles with its relationship

688
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 6: with the United States, and every reaction has a counter reaction,

689
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 6: because ultimately, if you come in and say we run

690
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 6: the place and it's just naked imperialism, it's naked sort

691
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 6: of avarice, and you aren't giving the people there any hope,

692
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,240
Speaker 6: any feeling that you're doing this in their name, then

693
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 6: you can't even hide under the mantle of caring about more.

694
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 4: Than your own self interest.

695
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 6: And that is the worst version of how people in

696
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 6: Latin America see the United States and its interventions over

697
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 6: the years, there have been many, starting with, of course,

698
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 6: the Central American Wars and how that unspooled, and the

699
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 6: backing of the United States of basically militias that killed people,

700
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 6: going to the overthrow of the legitimately elected government of

701
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,280
Speaker 6: Chile President Allende in the seventies, and then the support

702
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 6: of all the military dictatorships in Argentina, in Brazil and

703
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 6: in Chile. So you know, there is a long history

704
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 6: of intervention in the region and a long long feeling

705
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 6: of people being aggrieved. The United States only seems to

706
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 6: notice Latin America and care about Latin America when they

707
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 6: feel that their interests are threatened.

708
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's true. It strikes me now,

709
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: is that there's still phase in the expat community that

710
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: America has interests other than pillaging Venezuela.

711
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 6: Well, I think what's been most interesting to me to

712
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 6: watch is Maria Karina Machallo's reaction here, and I think

713
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 6: that answers your question in a way, which is what

714
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 6: alternative do they have?

715
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 4: Like?

716
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 6: You see her and she has been completely sidelined. In

717
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 6: her interviews that she's given in the past few days,

718
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 6: she has said that she has not been in touch

719
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 6: with anyone in the Trump administration since the new year,

720
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 6: since his action has been taken. They haven't even talked

721
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 6: to her, So that in and of itself, you'd think, wow,

722
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,240
Speaker 6: this lady should be pretty mad, right, this is something

723
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 6: she's given her entire life towards. She has been in

724
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 6: hiding inside Venezuela with a price on her head. She

725
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 6: has did heroically, and yet the United States hasn't even

726
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 6: deigned to speak with her. And yet she's praising Donald Trump?

727
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 4: Right? Why?

728
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 6: Because what alternative does the diaspora have? Does the exle

729
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 6: community have? That is I think the very cold calculation

730
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 6: that everyone's making.

731
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 4: This isn't the best.

732
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 6: Version of what could have happened, but is still a

733
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 6: better version, they believe, than having Maduro still at the

734
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 6: helm of Venezuela.

735
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point and does have so

736
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: many countries find themselves. Right.

737
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 6: You also can't underestimate the role of Secretary Rubio because

738
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 6: Marco Rubio occupies a very important position in all of this,

739
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,720
Speaker 6: which is, not only is he the hawk that seems

740
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 6: to be the mastermind, but also he is a Cuban American.

741
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 6: He is very well known as the former senator from

742
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 6: the state of Florida. He has very close relationships with

743
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 6: the exile communities of Cuba and of Venezuela. People trust

744
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 6: him and they also know that it is important to

745
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 6: him to have democracy. So I think having him in

746
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 6: this key role gives them a lot more faith that

747
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 6: this might have a better outcome than if it was

748
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 6: Stephen Miller, for example, that was the architectural of this

749
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 6: or Pete Hexp Right.

750
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: No, I think that's right. He represents that community right exactly.

751
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 1: He is it. There's something you said which I've talked

752
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: to other people about, and it seems to be the

753
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: kind of thoughtful way to think about this moment, which

754
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: is America is very good at cups, but not so

755
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: good at what comes after. And this administration seems particularly inept.

756
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: I was going to also say inept, but also that

757
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:45,720
Speaker 1: they're not detail oriented, and a situation like this strikes

758
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: me as a moment where you would need some interest

759
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,919
Speaker 1: in details, or also some interest in anything. I would

760
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: love you to just talk about what you think sort

761
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 1: of the potential pitfalls here are.

762
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 6: I mean, there's so many that it's really really hard

763
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 6: to break down. I'll talk about the pitfalls within Venezuela,

764
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 6: and then I'll talk about the pitfiles outside of Venezuela.

765
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 6: This was a first of all masterful military operation, and

766
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 6: I think justifiably the administration, regardless of whether you think

767
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 6: it was illegal or illegal, advisable or ill advised, it

768
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 6: was a success. By the metrics that they put out,

769
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 6: they were able to get Maduro, they didn't have any casualties,

770
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 6: they brought him to the United States, and now they

771
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 6: feel like they have the upper hand in that country.

772
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 4: Within Venezuela.

773
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 6: This is an extremely tricky situation because what you've done

774
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 6: is decapitated the head of the country, but you've left

775
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 6: all of the apparatus in its place, and it's not monolithic.

776
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 6: None of these regimes are right, they're all sort of

777
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 6: made up of rivals.

778
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 4: It's incredibly corrupt.

779
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 6: You have the Interior Minister, Yostlo Cavello, who's one of

780
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:54,760
Speaker 6: the most feared people in the country.

781
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 4: He represents one sort of group.

782
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 6: He oversees the sort of internal repression apparatus.

783
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 4: You have the Defense minister, another very.

784
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 6: Important group, by the Nino Lopez, who is sort of

785
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 6: general of the armed forces and he controls the military.

786
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 6: That is another extremely important group that is very invested

787
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,240
Speaker 6: in a lot of the illicit activities that have happened

788
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 6: in Venezuela. And then, of course you have the person

789
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 6: who is now the de facto leader, Delsey Rodriguez, who

790
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 6: has been tasked with sort of leading this very strange transition.

791
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 6: None of these people are democrats in the small de sense.

792
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,760
Speaker 6: None of these people want democracy. None of these people

793
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 6: are interested in democracy. And I'll also add nothing that

794
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 6: this administration in the United States has done in the

795
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 6: United States or anywhere else should lead anyone to believe

796
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 6: that they care about democracy.

797
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 4: Either not quite the opposite.

798
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 6: So you have a strange marriage of two kind of

799
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 6: forces that the only place they might meet in the

800
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 6: middle and where their interests aligne is in the oil

801
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 6: and that's why you're seeing so much emphasis on that,

802
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 6: not only because Donald Trump is personally invested in that,

803
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 6: but also because that is something that the regime feels

804
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 6: if they can pay the tie, if they can give

805
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 6: the money that is being basically shaped out of them,

806
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 6: that perhaps they might even survive, but at the cost

807
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,760
Speaker 6: of the Venezuelan people. You know, I've spoken to people

808
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 6: within Venezuela and again that initial hope has now turned

809
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 6: again to fear. We're seeing these groups that are called collectivos,

810
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 6: these gangs that are paramilitary forces out on the streets.

811
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 4: You've seen the intelligence services making arrests.

812
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 6: They've been looking at people's phones to see messages that

813
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 6: might have been pro the US military intervention.

814
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: People being arrested, So they're punishing people who are pro US,

815
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 1: despite the fact that the US has sort of said

816
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: they are going to support this government.

817
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 6: Exactly what has happened actually is the situation for Venezuelan's

818
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 6: inside the country is now worse if indeed you are alive,

819
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 6: with what the US action has.

820
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 4: And so people are very confused and they're afraid.

821
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 1: Is in Delcei allied with the US too.

822
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 4: I don't know, do you. I mean, the people don't know.

823
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: I mean they kept her in the job.

824
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,919
Speaker 6: But this is the whole problem which if anyone who

825
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 6: has covered or looked at Venezuela, she is so you know,

826
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 6: steeped in the corruption, the repression, the architecture of this

827
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 6: terrible regime that has caused so much harm that no

828
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 6: one can believe that this is going to be the

829
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 6: person that is going to deliver the next step in Venezuela.

830
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 6: And beyond that, what they're doing is just consolidating power.

831
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:40,439
Speaker 6: What they're doing is actually making sure that there isn't

832
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 6: any internal descent. And the question that I have personally

833
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 6: for this administration in the United States is are you

834
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 6: okay with that?

835
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 4: Because you want stability at any cost in Venezuela.

836
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 6: Which is something that they've talked about that they don't

837
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 6: want to see a version of Iraq, which I covered

838
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 6: where they had the debathification and they got rid of,

839
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 6: you know, all the military brass, and they got rid

840
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 6: of all the internal apparachniks, and then they were left

841
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 6: with a country that they had to rebuild from scratch

842
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,240
Speaker 6: with an insurgency that was armed and angry.

843
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 4: They don't want that, and I understand that.

844
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 6: But this version we've never quite seen before where you

845
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 6: leave everyone intact, all the people who are really at

846
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 6: the center of these terrible things, and you're saying, do

847
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 6: what you want, It's okay, as long as we get

848
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,399
Speaker 6: the oil. How is that the best version of this

849
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 6: and how does that lead to some sort of independent,

850
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 6: democratic Venezuela down the line, Because at this point, all

851
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 6: those people are looking out for their own survival because

852
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,720
Speaker 6: what they're getting is the stick. They're being told, Hey,

853
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 6: if you don't do this, you're next, So what's in

854
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 6: it for them?

855
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: This is just such an insane situation, right people are

856
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: being punished for supporting the American government, and the American

857
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 1: government is supporting the administration that's punishing the people. Like

858
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems very insane.

859
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 6: And also my question is doesn't the United States own that?

860
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 6: Then if Donald Trump comes out and says I run Venezuela,

861
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 6: and he's not just said it once, he has said

862
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 6: it repeatedly, then whatever happens in that country to those

863
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 6: Venezuelans you also now own.

864
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 4: And I have heard versions where.

865
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 6: People are saying, no, how can the United States government

866
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 6: be responsible for the terrible repressive actions of a terrible regime.

867
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,359
Speaker 6: Give them time, they're working it out. Fine, let's take

868
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 6: that at face value. But no one told Donald Trump

869
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 6: to say, I run Venezuela. Once you make that declarative statement,

870
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 6: then you own that, Then you own what happens there next.

871
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,240
Speaker 6: And many many leaders, Donald Trump is not the first one.

872
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 6: Barack Obama saw that in Libya. I was there for that,

873
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 6: the unraveling of Libya. George Bush saw that in Iraq,

874
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 6: I was there for that, and so you know, he

875
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 6: is now facing a very similar situation.

876
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 4: And then outside of the country.

877
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 6: We talked about sort of the perils of inside of

878
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 6: the country, which is fracturing, which is more repression, which

879
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 6: is potentially a civil war, which makes Venezuela sort of ungovernable.

880
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 6: But outside the country, what you have now is a

881
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 6: different series of problems. Donald Trump and his administration is

882
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,760
Speaker 6: breaking the world order in a way that I think

883
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 6: has everyone grappling in Europe, in the United States and

884
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 6: the Americas, and certainly beyond, because what everyone felt that

885
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 6: they understood about this administration was, you know, they're not

886
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 6: going to get into Ford adventures. In fact, they want

887
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 6: to end foreign adventures. They want to Ukraine war to

888
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,720
Speaker 6: be over, they want Gaza conflict to be over, because

889
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 6: they've considered that a distraction.

890
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 4: They don't want any part of it.

891
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 6: And so they felt that they had the measure of

892
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 6: what this was and what this administration wants. And instead,

893
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,359
Speaker 6: now we've seen a one to eighty to this very

894
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 6: bellicos administration that's saying, actually, we're going to invade Venezuela,

895
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 6: We're going to topple the administration in Cuba. We're going

896
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 6: to maybe threaten and take out democratically elected leaders like

897
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 6: in Colombia and Mexico. We're going to take Greenland, and

898
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,879
Speaker 6: on and on and on. And if you watch right

899
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 6: wing media at the moment, you know, it's like everyone

900
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 6: has ripped off the mask of Maga, who had sort

901
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 6: of been supporting this isolationist idea for the last sort

902
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 6: of nine years, and everyone's sort of cheerleading this and

903
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 6: where you know, you see Lindsey Graham sort of wearing

904
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,240
Speaker 6: a cap saying, you know, make a Ryan great again.

905
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 6: And so the question now is what is American foreign policy,

906
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 6: what is its role going to be in the world?

907
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 6: And what are the ramifications for all of this in

908
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 6: the global world order? And I can tell you they

909
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 6: are going to be vast.

910
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, Lula, this is so interesting. Thank you so much

911
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 1: for coming out on and just talking about this and

912
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 1: so important. Thank you. You're welcome.

913
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 3: There a moment.

914
00:49:53,960 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 2: And Jesse Cannon, my, you know what gives the impression

915
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 2: that you have a popular agenda, that you really really

916
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 2: feel confident that people are just going to blow kisses

917
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 2: to you when you walk out the door to get

918
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 2: the wording paper.

919
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 3: When your government officials are moving to military basis.

920
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know it's funny because of Venezuela stuff. This

921
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 1: is like that. It's like Penanenal public stuff. Right, you

922
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 1: can't live in your house because you're scared of the

923
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: people telling you they don't like you.

924
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 2: I just got this picture of the movie Zodea of

925
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:28,720
Speaker 2: interest in my head all of a sudden.

926
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: I don't know why, I'm thinking Moon over Parador. Basically,

927
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 1: these people are scared. They're scared of protesters, they're scared

928
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: of people giving them dirty looks. They're scared of all

929
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: of that. And you know, so they're moving into military

930
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 1: basis now. I want to point out that Secretary of

931
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: State under Biden, Tony Lincoln had almost daily protests of

932
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 1: his house. People splattered blood on his car. He has

933
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: little kids, and it was now again, do I think

934
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 1: that Tony Blncoln was a right Psyecotary of State? I

935
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 1: do not. I don't think people should have gone to

936
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 1: his house, but I understand why people were upset. That said,

937
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 1: that was probably pretty horrible for him. In fact, I

938
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: know it was horrible for him and his wife and

939
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: quite scary for their children. But he did move into

940
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 1: an army base, and he probably couldn't have even if

941
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 1: he had wanted to, because that administration followed the law,

942
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: and so they probably would not have been able to

943
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 1: move into an army base. Maybe there's some law I

944
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 1: don't know about. But it has been traditionally that members

945
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: of our government live in houses in Washington, DC like

946
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 1: everyone else. But this administration that does not happen, and

947
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 1: we have numerous members of the administration living in military bases.

948
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 1: We have Stephen Miller, and we have Christy Nome, and

949
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: we have at least six others living in Washington area

950
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 1: military housing where their shielded not just from possible incursions

951
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,959
Speaker 1: but also from protests or people telling them that they're

952
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: I'm not happy. You'll notice Donald Trump does not go

953
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,760
Speaker 1: out for dinner very much, and one of the last

954
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 1: times he did, she was booed. Yep, that's it for

955
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:16,799
Speaker 1: this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday,

956
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: Thursday and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics

957
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 1: make sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast,

958
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

959
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:31,240
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.