1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero I am Akshatrati this week a different 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: kind of solar power. Nuclear fusion is a reality. It's 3 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: how the Sun produces energy, but trying to replicate what 4 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: the Sun does here on Earth has been, to put 5 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: it mildly, a challenge for a long time. Nuclear fusion 6 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: as an energy source has been in the realm of 7 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: science fiction. One can imagine powering civilizations that move across 8 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: planets and maybe even galaxies, but bringing it back down 9 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: to Earth to our current climate predicament. Fusion power could 10 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: also provide emissions free, unlimited energy, and wouldn't that be nice. Fortunately, 11 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: after more than fifty years of trying, there is some 12 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: success to report on. In fleeting experiments, scientists have been 13 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: able to generate more energy from fusion reactions than the 14 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: energy put into making them happen in the first place. Now, 15 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: someone just needs to do it at scale, and there 16 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: are dozens of startups trying to do just that. One 17 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: of the most promising ones is CFS, or Commonwealth Fusion Systems. 18 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: The startup CEO Bob Mumguard began his work at MIT, 19 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: where he worked with researchers studying plasma science. They designed 20 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: a reactor called Spark, which could become the first large 21 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: scale reactor that generates more energy than it consumes. CFS 22 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: has now raised more than two billion dollars in venture capital. 23 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: That's more than any other fusion startup. Clearly, investors are 24 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: betting that if CFS succeeds, there's a big return to 25 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: be made. How exactly well to find out, I caught 26 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: up with Bob at the break Through Energy Summit in June. 27 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: We neded out about the science behind fusion, how CFS's 28 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: bagel shaped reactor or Tokomac works, and how the company 29 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: is going to put the billions of dollars it's raised 30 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: to work. Bob, Welcome to the show. 31 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 2: Great to be here. 32 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: Even those who don't know anything about nuclear fusion benefit 33 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: from it every day. The Sun is the largest nuclear 34 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: fusion reactor. If we could replicate that process on Earth, 35 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: we could have unlimited energy. And we really started thinking 36 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: about this about one hundred years ago. So let's just 37 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: start with the history of nuclear fusion. 38 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, basically humans have looked at the 39 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,399 Speaker 2: Sun since humans existed, and they've wondered, well, how does 40 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 2: that work? And you had before we even understood that 41 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: the nucleus was a thing. Right before we had any 42 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 2: of that, people thought, well, the sun must be burning wood, right, 43 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 2: and you can like calculate it up and say, well, 44 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 2: if the sun we figured out in like the fifteen 45 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: hundreds how heavy the sun was. He said, okay, if 46 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 2: the sun was burning wood, it would have burned out 47 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 2: in like five thousand years. And so that was actually 48 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 2: like a big deal to everyone because scientists were saying, well, 49 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 2: things can't be old. They must all be like five 50 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 2: thousand years old. The sun would have burnt out, and 51 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 2: so there's a big question, well, how's the sun still around? 52 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: Like once you like found out that things were old, 53 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 2: like the Earth was old, and fossils and dinosaurs and 54 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 2: all that stuff, you're like, well, what was powering the stars? 55 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: And it wasn't until about nineteen twenty that you had 56 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: a combination of things. You had one we found how 57 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: atoms were built. They had a nucleus, and then you 58 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 2: also had equals mc squared. 59 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: And you have famous Einsteining question, yeah, which said energy 60 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: and mass can be converted into. 61 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 2: Each other exactly. And then guy Arthur Eddington, who we're 62 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: in the UK right now, a UK guy astronomer. He 63 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 2: realized that the helium which they just discovered in the sun, 64 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 2: only in the sun, was kind of like four hydrogens 65 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 2: but slightly light. Yeah, And he postulated, out of nothing, 66 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 2: just a pure inference, the inside the stars, they must 67 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: be taking hydrogen, combining it to helium and converting mass 68 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 2: to energy. And if they did that, that that would 69 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 2: explain how the stars could be old, and not only that, 70 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 2: but billions of years old. 71 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: It's not a bad hypothesis. If you're starting to build 72 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: a periodic table. The first element is hydrogen, the second 73 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: element is helium. Hydrogen is only one unit of mass. 74 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: Helium is four units of mass. And you go, why 75 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: is there that big a jump? 76 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: And yep, and you can look at it and you 77 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 2: can calculate it up. And he does it in a 78 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 2: seven page paper, publishes it, and sure enough he got 79 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 2: it like spot on. And then the paper even says, 80 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 2: if we could do this on Earth, we would be 81 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 2: able to solve a whole bunch of problems. 82 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: And so over the next one hundred years, theory is 83 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: then converted into some amount of practical work, and what 84 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: we now understand is to be able to replicate what 85 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: the sun does on Earth. We need to do it 86 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: a little bit differently. The temperature of this hydrogen mass 87 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: has to be ten times more than what happens at 88 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: the core of the Sun. So the core of the 89 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: Sun is fifteen million degrees celsius. You need something like 90 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: one hundred or a hundred and fifty million degrees celsius 91 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: for it to happen on Earth. And of course at 92 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 1: that temperature, you have to do something to hold it 93 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: all together. Because you heat stuff, it evaporates, it becomes 94 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: stuff that you can't hold, So you have to hold 95 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: it all together. And only then can you fuse these 96 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: atoms and these nucleus going from hydrogen into helium. All 97 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: of that is going to take a lot of energy, 98 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: and there have been a bunch of reactions that have 99 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: been done, but only one facility on planet Earth has 100 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: ever got more energy out of that system than put 101 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,239 Speaker 1: in it. So, before we understand what your company does, 102 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: could you just talk us through the main ways in 103 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: which we can make that reaction happen. 104 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 2: Right, So, you know, we just jumped over here about 105 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 2: one hundred years of work where we realized, oh okay, 106 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: that's the reaction, and we confirmed it on Earth that 107 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 2: that's the reaction. In the thirties and then the fifties 108 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 2: we calculated, oh, if you want to do it on Earth, 109 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 2: you would need to hold it all together. You need 110 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: to insulate it very very well. And then we built 111 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 2: machines in the fifties and sixties or guess and try, 112 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: and it turns out that that was way way harder 113 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 2: than we thought it was going to be, and so 114 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 2: we had to make big computers and we realized, well, 115 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 2: there's maybe these few classes of ways you could hold 116 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 2: it all together. So if you needed to reach the 117 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 2: right conditions, which really are as you said, hot like 118 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: one hundred million degrees, dense enough of it and insulate 119 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 2: it so doesn't cool off too fast. 120 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: Or doesn't burn everything around it too quickly. 121 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and really, you know, if it got too hot 122 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 2: and touch stuff around it, that would just cool it off. 123 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 2: And so it's it's a double edged piece that if 124 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 2: you needed to get those conditions, there was like a 125 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: few physical forces that you could use to do it. 126 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: And it turns out that you can sort of roughly 127 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 2: categorize all different ways to reach those conditions into first 128 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: order two branches, and there's some stuff in between but 129 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 2: largely two poles, and one of them is you could 130 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,679 Speaker 2: use magnetic fields. So you can basically build a bottle 131 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 2: using magnetic fields and be different shapes and. 132 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: The advantages you don't touch it. 133 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the Menet field's basically I mean it's almost 134 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 2: like a force field, not not quite, but like you 135 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: basically build a magnetic bottle, so no materials touch it. 136 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 2: And then the other way to do it is just 137 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 2: make it happen so fast that it can't get out 138 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: of its own way. So you make a pulse that 139 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 2: happens so fast that before the fuel, the plasma, the hydrogen, 140 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 2: before it moves out of its own way, reacts. 141 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: It's like taking something and firing bullets at it from 142 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: three hundred and sixty degrees simultaneously. The thing in the 143 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: middle just gets compressed. 144 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and it compresses and it compresses, and then 145 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 2: fusion happens because you reach the conditions, and then the 146 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: fusion converts the fuel into two energy. And all that 147 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 2: happens so fast that you don't need to insulate it. 148 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 2: It just happens in a splink of nine. 149 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: So CFS Commonwealth Fusion Systems, your company does magnetic fusion. 150 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: But the thing that has achieved more energy out than 151 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: in is inertial fusion. Can you talk us through the 152 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: facility that has done it multiple times and the only 153 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: facility on planet. 154 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 2: Ar Right, So all of these fusion ways to do 155 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: it all have at the heart of it the same 156 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 2: basic physics, right, and it actually goes that physics from Eddington, 157 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 2: the nuclear physics of how the reaction happens, and then 158 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 2: the plasma physics of how do you have these very 159 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: hot states of matter if you take something and you 160 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 2: melt solid to liquid and evaporate solid to gas. Well, 161 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 2: if you keep putting energy and you get gas to 162 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 2: plasma and that's the state that the stars and everyone. 163 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 2: So that means that the underlying science of everything is 164 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 2: those fields nuclear physics and plasma physics, and they're just 165 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 2: different ways to apply that science. And the facility Niff 166 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 2: that has reached more power out than in the way 167 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: it did it is it took a tiny, tiny pellet 168 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 2: that had the fuel in it, that was in a 169 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 2: gas and. 170 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: It used how about. 171 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 2: Two millimeters so like the top of a pin rhythm. Yeah, 172 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 2: I like it. Yeah, it took a tiny pellet and 173 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: then it used one hundred and ninety two of the 174 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: world's largest lasers and fired those lasers with the precision 175 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 2: of like one part and a billion timing onto this 176 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: pellet and compressed the pellet like a factor of several hundred. 177 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: So tiny pellet, it's two millimeter pellet becomes pointed time. 178 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: Yes, it might even be more. I can't remember that exactly. 179 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 2: It's all in the papers. They publish it all in 180 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 2: peer review, which is exactly what should be done. And 181 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 2: when that happens, it compresses, it heats up, the density 182 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 2: goes up, the temperature goes up, and the whole thing 183 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 2: has a bang of fusion and all happens super fast. 184 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: Right, this is micro. 185 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 2: And so that reaches the right conditions. When you calculate 186 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 2: how much energy the lasers put into the pellet, and 187 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 2: you then measure the amount of fusion power the energy 188 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 2: that came out, and you divide the two, you get 189 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: the game. Right. 190 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: And that happened almost exactly one hundred years since Arthur 191 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 1: Eddington produced his paper. And so after one hundred years, 192 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: we've been able to show this can be done on Earth. 193 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: But all we've been able to show is we could 194 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: make enough energy to heat a cup of coffee. Right now, 195 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: Your company wants to do this so that it can 196 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: produce power that can be put on the grid, and 197 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: you want to do it before twenty thirty. 198 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: Right, And so there's a couple of things that are 199 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: important there. One, NIFF was never designed to be a 200 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 2: power plant. It was designed to show the science worked. 201 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 2: And so in that way, you know how much energy 202 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 2: it made. Its immaterial right, it reached the right conditions, 203 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 2: things went according to plan, and that was the big achievement, 204 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 2: Like science works. Right now, the step is how do 205 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 2: you turn that science that's been validated that we've you know, 206 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 2: in those one hundred years, and we came like somewhere 207 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 2: around like fifteen orders of magnitude and performance faster than 208 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 2: More's law for most of those one hundred years. So 209 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 2: that's huge deal. And now we're at this cusp where 210 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 2: you can start to think about how to make that practical. 211 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 2: So how to make it so it's not just you know, 212 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 2: a few times power out over in or energy out 213 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 2: over in, but like more than that ten. How to 214 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 2: make it so it's not just mega jewels but gigagules, 215 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 2: and how to make it continuous. So the plant is 216 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 2: making megawatts. You know, those are the types of engineering 217 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 2: type challenges, and what we're trying to do at Commonwealth 218 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 2: Fusion Systems is to demonstrate in a facility that you 219 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 2: can handle those challenges. 220 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: And you're doing it through magnetic fusion. So talk us 221 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: through exactly what that is and what is CFS's approach. 222 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 2: So in magnetic fusion, you build this magnetic bottle using 223 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 2: very high strength magnets and that can hold plasma. Plasma 224 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 2: is charged, so it responds to magnetic fields and in fact, 225 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 2: that's like why the northern lights are so pretty. And 226 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 2: it turns out if you build the right shape of 227 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,719 Speaker 2: magnetic bottle, the simplest shape is a shape that's kind 228 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 2: of like a doughnuts, like a bagel. You can use 229 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 2: strong magnets and you can have a bagel of plasma, 230 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 2: and the performance of that plasma, how hot and how 231 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 2: dense and how insulated it is, that will go like 232 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 2: the menetic field to the about fourth power. So it's 233 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: very strongly dependent on the strength of the magnet. And 234 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 2: we know this because we've built about one hundred and 235 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 2: fifty of these machines that are these donut shape machines. 236 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: And they have a name called a Tokmac from a 237 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 2: Soviet discovery where they really figured out these machines in 238 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 2: the sixties and then everywhere around the world and the 239 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: seventies they were. 240 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: Built and if Americans had done it before, maybe they 241 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: would have been called bagel reactors. 242 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, who knows, But you know, at the time, it 243 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 2: was actually a cool story of you know, we were 244 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 2: in the Cold War and fusion was something that everyone 245 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 2: had agreed they were all going to work on together 246 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 2: because it's so hard, right, We've been at it at 247 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 2: that time, like forty years and it's kind of like, well, 248 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 2: we're going and slower then we want, let's all work together. 249 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 2: So fusion's always been declassified, it's always been open. And 250 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: the Soviets made this machine they called it a Tokamac, 251 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 2: and it suddenly was ten million degrees. They measured it 252 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 2: was ten million degrees and the world was like, no way, right, 253 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: So they sent the scientists from the UK with the 254 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 2: laser which had just been invented, over to measure the 255 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 2: temperature of this new fangled device in the Soviet Union. 256 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: Right, clearly, like this is temperature we've never experienced. We 257 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: don't even know what a thermometer would look like to 258 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: actually measure it, and so you had to invent a 259 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: thermometer as well. 260 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they go and they measure it in like 261 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 2: sure enough, it's ten million degrees. And that threshold of 262 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 2: ten million degrees is still today like an important threshold 263 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 2: in judging where fusion ideas are. It was such a 264 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 2: big leap at the time, and they published it in 265 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 2: peer view journals and like everyone's like, oh, awesome, big breakthrough. Right, 266 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 2: we have these tokemax they can get hot, and the 267 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: world like went and built a bunch of tokemacs. And 268 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 2: what we saw then in the seventies and eighties is 269 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 2: a bunch of to camacs that got higher and higher performance. 270 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 2: But because of this magnetic field, they sort of ran 271 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 2: out of headroom and how to make them higher performance 272 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 2: because they ran into limits on the magnets. And the 273 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: other way around that is to build them bigger. 274 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: Right, And this is where the biggest nuclear fusion experiment 275 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: in the world comes into picture. It's called Eater is 276 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: being built in France. It's already spent twenty billion euros. 277 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: It's still not done right. 278 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 2: And so eventually it gets so big that you know, 279 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 2: you learn a lot and you say, well, I only 280 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 2: have access to a certain magnetic field. Because of the 281 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: magnet technology, I can solve the science equations. And it says, 282 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 2: I gotta build it big, like office block big, and 283 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 2: so that's gonna be expensive. Let's get all the world's 284 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: governments together. You remember, we've been doing fusion out in 285 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 2: the open. Will make it a big science project like CERN. 286 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 2: And you go out and you try to build this 287 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: giant fusion machine. And it turns out that took longer 288 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 2: than anyone thought and was more expensive than anyone thought. 289 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 2: Some of it's technical, a lot of it is organizational. 290 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 2: You can imagine a un of science trying situation right, 291 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 2: and so they're they're part way through building it and 292 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 2: it's continually delayed's. 293 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: And Bob the PhD student thinks, you know what, guys, 294 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: this is too much. We should just make a small 295 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: version of this and make this reaction actually work. Is 296 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: that how CFS was born, Not not quite, but the 297 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: parts of that that are accurate was that we had 298 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: known that if you had better magnets, you could make 299 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: it much smaller. 300 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 2: And that was an idea that was not a controversial 301 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 2: idea at all that that was an idea that people 302 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 2: at MIT had worked on and people in Germany and 303 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 2: the UK, and so we knew that was a possibility, 304 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 2: but we didn't have the technology. And what changed is 305 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 2: we in the about twenty ten timeframes suddenly had a 306 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 2: material science, a superconductor that was practical that you could 307 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 2: begin to think about, Oh, I could build really strong magnets, 308 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 2: a new generation, a new class of very strong magnets. 309 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 2: And if I did that, I know I can make 310 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 2: those fusion machines, those tokemacs much smaller. And that's what 311 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 2: really underpinned the effort that became CFS, and still is. 312 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 2: The fundamental technology inside CFS and. 313 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: The magnets that enabled you to be able to make 314 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: this tookmac smaller are called high temperature superconducting magnets. Now 315 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: those are lots of words, but superconducting is kind of 316 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: self explanatory, which is that conductors are things that carry electricity. 317 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: When they carry electricity, they typically lose some of that 318 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: in the form of heat because there is resistance as 319 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: the electrons are flowing through that cable. Then you can 320 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: make it a superconductor by trying to reduce that resistance 321 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: to zero, and that was shown to happen by reducing 322 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: the temperature to almost zero. But that's not great because 323 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: getting to almost zero temperature takes a lot of energy, 324 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: so if you want more energy out, that's a bad idea. 325 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: And so they came up with high temperature superconductors, which 326 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: are not absolute zero, but they're still pretty cold. 327 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 2: Right. Oh yeah, So in the eighties they discovered and 328 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 2: this is one of these things that was completely discovered experimentally, 329 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 2: I mean, it was not predicted at all, like the 330 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 2: opposite of edding t. 331 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: Wait, so why is that the case? Because you know 332 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: there's a conductor and it has resistance, why can't you 333 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: theorize that there could be zero resistance at some point? 334 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 2: Well, it turns out that you need in that conductor 335 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 2: to be a very specific type of material that has 336 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 2: some quantum mechanical effects, so effects that are not classical 337 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 2: that would make it so that the resistance is zero, 338 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 2: and it is identically zero. It's not like approaching zero. 339 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 2: It drops from finite and actually pretty high to zero. 340 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: So it goes from sort of Newtonian science and then 341 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: breaks it and goes to Einsteinian science and says yeah, 342 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: this is just a new way of actually running this material. 343 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 2: And when they discovered that, a guy named Henrik Ohms 344 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 2: discovered that and he won the Nobel Prize for that, 345 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 2: And so that's exactly what happens that you switch to 346 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 2: quantum mechanics because of the materials and it's cold, and 347 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 2: all of a sudden it's a super nuctor the limitation 348 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 2: that needs to be very cold, and like those are 349 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 2: like a few degrees calvin, a few degrees above zero. 350 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 2: But what they discovered in the eighties is there was 351 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 2: a new class of material material that like people didn't 352 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 2: even think would be a superconductor, and it was a 353 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 2: superductor at like eighty kelvin and so that's a huge 354 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 2: deal and they called that high temperature and they won 355 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 2: the Nobel Prize the year after they discovered that. 356 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: Right, that's adye kelvin is about minus two hundred degrees celsius. 357 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 2: Think kelvin is about what you can do with liquid nitrogen. 358 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: So that's like high school physics demonstration classroom. 359 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: You take rose, you dip it in liquid nitrogen, and 360 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: then you pull it out and then you smash it 361 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: and it. 362 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 2: Breaks into pieces exactly dippin' dots. 363 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 1: And so high temperature superconductors are discovered in the eighties. 364 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: You only started building your company in the twenty twenties, really. 365 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 2: Right, And so it's one thing to discover in material, 366 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 2: it's some other thing to make that material practical. And 367 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 2: so really what the high temperature superneutor folks were doing 368 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 2: is they were figuring out, well, how do I even 369 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 2: grow this material? How do I make it? How do 370 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 2: I make it into wires? Right, it's a supernutor so 371 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 2: you need wires. And it wasn't really until about twenty 372 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 2: ten that you could even see wires out of this 373 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: material of any appreciable length and anything that approached the 374 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 2: quality you would need to make practical things. And so 375 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 2: it wasn't until we saw that that we realized, oh, 376 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 2: now we can build a magnet technology on that material. 377 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 2: Continue to evolve them material as well, and that really 378 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: was at the period where we started to lay the 379 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 2: groundwork for CFS. 380 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: And what is this material? 381 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 2: This material it's called rare earth barium copper oxide, But 382 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 2: what it really is is it's a crystal and it's 383 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 2: a ceramic that's grown. It's like grown like silicon. Computer chips, 384 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: and most of it's copper, barium and oxygen has a 385 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 2: dope into a tiny tiny amount of a rare earth 386 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 2: yttrium usually, And it turns out when you grow that 387 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 2: crystal and you grow it really well, like nearly perfect, 388 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 2: it will be a supergductor when it's cold. But importantly 389 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 2: for us, it's not just that it's higher temperature. In fact, 390 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 2: that's actually not that important. The thing that's important is 391 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:43,479 Speaker 2: that all the other superconductors they had this limitation that 392 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: when they were in a menetic field, the menetic field 393 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 2: would break the quantum mechanical effect, and so they would 394 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 2: stop being a superinductor if they were in a menetic field, 395 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 2: particularly if the menic field got too high. And so 396 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 2: here you're trying to build an electromagnet, a wire that's 397 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 2: making magnetic field that limits itself by making magnetic field, 398 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 2: and that means that you have a hard limit. You 399 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 2: can basically build magnets that were like tennish tesla. 400 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: So a material that breaks itself. 401 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, so not a great thing if you want to 402 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: like build the highest magnet fields in the world. But 403 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 2: the high tempered supernuctors also had a feature that they 404 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 2: were high magnetic field super nuctors. They didn't have this limit. 405 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 2: The quantum mechanics was different, and once you realize that, 406 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 2: you could immediately say, oh, if I had a bunch 407 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: of this material and then I figured out a whole 408 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 2: bunch of other technology, I could build really really strong magnets. 409 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: And so on the basis of that, CFS is now 410 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: among only a handful of climate tech startups that have 411 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: raised billions of dollars in money. That's a lot of 412 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: money for a climate tech startup, not for Microsoft, but 413 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: for a climate tech startup, a lot of money. Few 414 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: startups even need that much money to reach commercial viability. 415 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: So before we come to how you're planning to spend 416 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: it all, tell us how did you convince private investors 417 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: who back ideas that actually become commercial reality and want 418 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: return on these ideas, not just scientific work, to give 419 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: you all that money. 420 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 2: Right, So at this point you have the fact that fusion. 421 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 2: We always knew it was a big deal. Right, if 422 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 2: you had a fusion power plants, that could potentially be 423 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 2: a huge business, That could be a business, you know 424 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 2: scale of the oil industry, right, huge business. We knew 425 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,679 Speaker 2: that it was scientifically possible. Not you're done, but like 426 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 2: scientifically possible. And we knew that if you could build 427 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 2: very strong magnets, you can make it much smaller and 428 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 2: it would put it in the realm of commercially doable. 429 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 2: And you basically had like a fifty billion dollar statement 430 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 2: of conviction by the governments that the TOKENMAC and eater 431 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 2: was going to work if you could build it. And 432 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 2: now all of a sudden, you have this material that hey, 433 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 2: all that and puts it within the reach of something 434 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 2: that would look kind of like a SpaceX, right in 435 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 2: terms of scale and engineering, et cetera. 436 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: Right, So if Eater is NASA CFS's SpaceX. 437 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, certainly people had boiled it down to that. 438 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 2: I wouldn'tess to say that, but other people have, and 439 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 2: so all that came together. It's at INT you know, 440 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 2: it's all peer reviewed, and it makes a really you know, 441 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 2: pretty simple roadmap. Go build that magnet technology, show it works. 442 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 2: Go build a TOKENAC that makes a lot of energy, 443 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 2: more power out than in using the science we already know, 444 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 2: and then go build power plants based on that machine. 445 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 2: And that's a digestible, falsifiable, peer reviewable path. And that's 446 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 2: the path that we've been on since before the company 447 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 2: was a company. That's been a path that we've been 448 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: on for about ten years now. And through that, you 449 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: know you look and say, okay, each execution stage, how 450 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 2: is it going? Is the team actually doing what said 451 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 2: is going to do? And by twenty and twenty one, 452 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 2: we had taken two hundred million dollars, we had spun 453 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 2: out a mit, we built a team, and we had 454 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 2: demonstrated that magnet technology and shown that it could scale, 455 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 2: and we designed the fusion tokemac Spark and peer reviewed it, 456 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 2: done the engineering, found the site, figured out how we 457 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 2: were going to go build that machine. And that's when 458 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 2: we're raised the one point eight billion dollars to go 459 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 2: and build it. And now we're we're about halfway through building. 460 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: That and what does it look like building it? 461 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 2: Well, it's big, like it's smaller than either, but you know, 462 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: you're still talking about having to build a factory to 463 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 2: make those magnets. So we have a factory that runs 464 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 2: three shifts, that is full of hundreds of people, that 465 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 2: makes supermufic magnets that simply did not exist before, based 466 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 2: on materials that won the Nobel Prize multiple times. You 467 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 2: do that, you have to find a place where they're like, 468 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 2: let you do that. And so we own a fifty 469 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 2: acres outside of Boston on an old military base, and 470 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 2: on that site with the factory, we have a fusion 471 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 2: prototype power plant and you know, it's buildings that are 472 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 2: made to hold fusion machines, and in there is we 473 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 2: haven't yet started assembling. We're getting ready to start assembol 474 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 2: of pokemac which we've built one hundred and fifty before, 475 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 2: but never one that was this powerful, and never one 476 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 2: that had these magnets in it. And so it looks 477 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 2: like a big construction project, that looks like a big 478 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 2: engineering project, that looks like a manufacturing project. And I 479 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 2: think that looks like actually what climate tech is going 480 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 2: to look like for just about every climate tech innovation 481 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 2: at scale. 482 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: And so you're waiting to learn this joke, which is 483 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: nuclear fusion, great idea, it's the future, it's always in 484 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: the future, and you're going to go, ha ha, we 485 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 1: made it happen. 486 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: We're going to go and say, look, show up at 487 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 2: this place, push a button and make a whole bunch 488 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 2: of heat from a reaction that built all the atoms 489 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,199 Speaker 2: on Earth. That powers the sun, and do that with 490 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 2: a team that built it all quickly out of sight 491 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 2: in a factory with blueprints, and we think that's fair. 492 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,479 Speaker 1: You're also going to not just make fusion reaction. You 493 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: are going to turn it into power at that facility, 494 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: and you're going to do it before twenty thirty. 495 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: So that facility will make fusion reactions, it will make 496 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 2: a bunch of heat, so we won't turn it into electricity. 497 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 2: But if we had turned it into electricity, which means 498 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 2: basically making that heat go into steam and turning a 499 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 2: steam turbine, if we've done that with stuff that ever 500 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 2: exists off the shelf, stuff, that facility would be able 501 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: to have sold some electricity. But we didn't demonstrate those pieces. 502 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: But it took a mac reactor. This bagel shaped machine 503 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: building will produce heat. Nobody has yet shown how to 504 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: capture all that heat turn it into steam to generate power. 505 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: So there's still one more step beyond the hardest step 506 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: that still needs to be shown to work. 507 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 2: Right, that's right, But that step is fairly conventional. You know. 508 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 2: That's a step that say a coal power plant does. 509 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 2: It captures heat and turns it to steam and turns 510 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 2: that steam turbine, and the electricity confusion in that way 511 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 2: is not that dissimilar then other ways to boil water. 512 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: Well. Sure, but the whole point of a nuclear fusion 513 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: reactor that you want to build is one that will 514 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: continuously generate heat. A continuously heating unit needs to take 515 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: that heat away. And so if you are not readying 516 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: yourself to do that, regardless of whether you want to 517 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: turn that heat into power or not, you're not going 518 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: to run this reactor on a continuous basis. 519 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the one in that we're building right now, 520 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 2: we'll run it for short periods because it does get 521 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 2: hot and you can't take the heat out at the 522 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 2: rate that you generate it. It's basically too small to 523 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 2: take the heat out. But we have then in parallel 524 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 2: efforts that are like, well this is how you take 525 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,959 Speaker 2: the heat out, and those are fairly conventional. 526 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: And so when will we have a CFS blant that 527 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: actually generates power. 528 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 2: That's the next piece in the milestone. So you know, 529 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 2: what we are right now is to build a machine 530 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 2: that does the really fusion specific pieces and does it 531 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 2: in a way that's like that's a snapshot of how 532 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 2: a plant would work. 533 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: And that will be ready and doing it when we 534 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: think that'll. 535 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 2: Be ready in like twenty twenty seven. So right now 536 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 2: we're about halfway through building it and sort of the 537 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 2: end of twenty twenty four will be manufacturing the parts, 538 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 2: and in twenty twenty five will be starting to assemble 539 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 2: all the parts and the big pieces of equipment will 540 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 2: be installed in the buildings, and in twenty six we'll 541 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 2: start to turn on individual subsystems that support the fusion 542 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 2: machine and eventually at twenty six and twenty seven the 543 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 2: fusion reactions and more power, more power out than in 544 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 2: Q grade and one in twenty seven, and so that's 545 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 2: a very fast timeline compared to what we've used to 546 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 2: doing in infusion. Right, So you know, big effort, but 547 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 2: you know the talent that is at CFS. That's the 548 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 2: type of challenge that they live for. And then after that, 549 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 2: the next step is to do that same thing a 550 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 2: little bit bigger, make more power, but very similar in 551 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 2: its parameters, and then put that out a site that 552 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 2: has the ability to turn that heat into steam to 553 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 2: electricity and then sell the electricity. And that is our 554 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 2: next machine, a machine we call. 555 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: ARC and how many more billions. Is that going to take. 556 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 2: That's going to take a similar amount to what we've already. 557 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: Raised, So about two billion dollars. 558 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I give it to it, you know, right. 559 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: And the aim to have the arc reactor generating power 560 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: is by what date? 561 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 2: So we want to do that, so it's in the 562 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 2: early twenty thirties. You know, a lot of that depends 563 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 2: on when we start, which depends on things like, well, 564 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 2: how confident are we in Spark? Do we wait to 565 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 2: finish all of Spark? Do we get started a little early? 566 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 2: You know? Do we wait to get more results out 567 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 2: of it? You know, there's some sort of a start 568 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 2: date that you have to figure out, and there's how 569 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 2: long will it take to build? And that's one of 570 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 2: the reasons that we're building Spark is we're getting how 571 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 2: long it takes? You know, what are the challenges? What 572 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 2: a supply chain look like? How much does it cost 573 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 2: the receipts in addition to the actual science of how 574 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 2: it works. 575 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: After the break? Are there too many fusion startups? And 576 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: if you've been enjoying this episode, please take a moment 577 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: to rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple or 578 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: now YouTube. It helps other listeners find the show. There 579 00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: are now fifty nuclear fusion startups by one count total, 580 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: they've raised about six billion dollars, which means CFS alone 581 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: has raised about a third of all that. Are there 582 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: too many nuclear fusion startups? 583 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 2: Well, I think what you're seeing is you're seeing a 584 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 2: growing ecosystem. So in those that count, many of those 585 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 2: are are companies that aim to build power plants. Like 586 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 2: you know, if you think what CFS is, we would 587 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 2: consider CFS like a tier one integrator. You know, we're 588 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 2: like a Ford, right, but Ford buys parts from people 589 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 2: that like ac Delco that make parts that go into Ford, 590 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 2: but also go into Chevy. And so we're starting to 591 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 2: see now in fusion the emerging of those tier two suppliers. 592 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 2: And in the continuing the car analogy, you know, there's 593 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 2: people that make high end cars that fit that market, 594 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 2: pickups in Sedan's, and you see that in fusion as well. 595 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 2: You see, okay, can you make a really small fusion machine, 596 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 2: a fusee machine that just generates heat, A future machine 597 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 2: that might be more speculative scientifically, so maybe it's a 598 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 2: next generation one. And so while there's a lot when 599 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 2: you actually break them down you say, are we out 600 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 2: of good ideas? No? Are we done building new future machines. 601 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 2: I don't think we ever will be. But is it 602 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 2: an ecosystem. Yes, you can start to see the emergence 603 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 2: of an ecosystem and eventually, like in a world where 604 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 2: there's a fusion industry, you know, that's a standalone industry, 605 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 2: that's an important industry. It's an asset class and so 606 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 2: you know my history of technology hat, it's like, no, 607 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 2: this is this feels about right? 608 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we put it on the climate timeline, 609 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: and that raises a bunch of questions about whether if 610 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: you build it by say twenty thirty five, will we 611 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: be able to build one hundred of them by twenty 612 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: fifty or thousand of them if we need right, because 613 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: we want clean firm power and we want lots of it. 614 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: But if you're thinking about it from a species perspective, 615 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: from a planet that has intelligent beings perspective, you would 616 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: want to give them nuclear fusion power. That would be 617 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 1: pretty useful, regardless of what problems they have. Having access 618 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,240 Speaker 1: to unlimited clean energy is very useful. 619 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 2: Right. If you think about like technology, and you know 620 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 2: we're sitting here at a conference. It's about innovation and climate. 621 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 2: The crazy thing about technology is that once you have 622 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 2: it and know it, it takes on a life of 623 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 2: its own, and it could scale way faster than we thought. 624 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 2: I really doubt that when Henry Ford was building the 625 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 2: Model T, which you know, cars existed before the Model T, 626 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 2: I'm sure there was there was doubters like, oh, you 627 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 2: know that's going to grow at like twenty percent. I mean, 628 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 2: the Model T production grew at one hundred percent year 629 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 2: over year for ten years. Like if you did that 630 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,839 Speaker 2: in climate, in any of the climate technologies, not only 631 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 2: do you solve climate in ten years, but like you 632 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 2: basically like lead to an entirely different civilization. Right, And 633 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 2: so that's the cool thing about technology and the idea 634 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,240 Speaker 2: that you could have a technology like fusion that basically 635 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 2: uses an entirely new process in a machine that we 636 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:12,720 Speaker 2: basically manufactured. That's like why it's an intellectually and wide 637 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:13,919 Speaker 2: open space. Very cool. 638 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: Thank you both, all right, thank you, thank you for 639 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 1: listening to zero And now for the sound of the week. 640 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: That's the sound from inside a fusion reactor, not at CFS, 641 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 1: but at another nuclear fusion startup called Zapp Energy, which 642 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: I visited two years ago and which is also racing 643 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: to bring fusion power onto the grid. If you like 644 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 1: this episode, please take a moment to rate or review 645 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode 646 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: with a friend or with someone who loves science fiction. 647 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: You can get in touch at Zero pod at Bloomberg 648 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 1: dot net. Zero's producer is Mithy Lirau. Bloomberg's Head of 649 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: podcast is Sage Bowman and head of Talk is Brendan 650 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: nunan Ar. Theme music is composed by Wonderly. Thanks to 651 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: break Through Energy for the space to record this episode. 652 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: Special thanks also to Kira Bindram and Monique Mulima, i 653 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: am Akshatrati back Soli