1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: how Stuff Works in love all things tech, and it's 5 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: time for another classic episode of tech Stuff, and this one, 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: Lauren Vogelbaum and I go over the contributions of Heisenberg. 7 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: What do you do? I'm not certain. Ah, that's a joke, no, 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: But seriously, we wanted to talk about Heisenberg. Heisenberg's work 9 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: in theoretical physics and how that made a huge impact 10 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: and continues to make a huge impact in technology. So 11 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: sit back, relax, and enjoy this classic episode of tech Stuff. 12 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: I'm just not sure about this topic. Heisenberg, right, okay, 13 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: wall I think I have some notes on him too, 14 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: are you? This is he was born on December five, 15 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: nineteen o one. Yes, that one, the physicist. Yes, the 16 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: famous theoretical physicist. All right, well, all right, maybe I 17 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: won't get a geek out about breaking bad, but that's fine. 18 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: We can talk about Vernon Heisenberg. I like that your 19 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: German pronunciation is better than the lady with the last 20 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: name vocal bomb. That's pretty that's pretty great. Um. So 21 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: born on December five, nineteen o one, in Verzberg. Uh 22 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: and yeah, Heisenberg has played an incredibly important role in 23 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: the establishment that that's the foundations of what is quantum mechanics. Right. 24 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: If you've heard of something something called the uncertainty principle, 25 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: that is a k A. Heisenberg's n certain new principle, 26 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: that that is, he is the operative Heisenberg. In this 27 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: we will explain what that uncertainty principle is in certain terms, 28 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: but that'll be towards the second half of the podcast. 29 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: First we wanted to kind of talk about who he was, 30 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: sort of his background. His father was an expert in 31 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: Middle and modern Greek languages. That's a Dr. August Heisenberg. 32 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: His mother was any Winklin. Winklin Winklin was w. Yes, 33 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: there's no W sound in German. It's um. Yeah, so vs, 34 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: r F S and w s or vs. That's easy 35 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: to remember, simple, all right, Yeah, so yeah, he he um. 36 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: It's funny because I understand that his his own background 37 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: in Greek, his father was an expert in Greek. His 38 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: own background in Greek meant that when they got to 39 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: the point where physicists were starting to name theoretical and 40 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: he would correct people's use of Greek, saying things like, 41 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: you cannot spell it this way because that's not how 42 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: it would be actually spelled if such a thing existed 43 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: in the Greek language. So so he was, um, you know, 44 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: helping us stay on the rails as far as the 45 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: use of Greek, right while he was growing up. When 46 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 1: he was twelve, that is when Neil's Bore present did 47 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: his general theory of of quantum existence. Yes, so Bore 48 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: would be incredibly important during Heisenberg's education. But Niels Bore 49 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: also known for making the Bore model of the atom. 50 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: So that was the model the atom that suggested that 51 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: you had a central nucleus and then electrons that were 52 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: orbiting nucleus. Yeah, so that's you know, anyone who's taken 53 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: any any class in chemistry or physics has seen the 54 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: Boor model. It's still one of those things that um 55 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: usually is. It's part of the history of the development 56 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: of particle physics and quantum mechanics. Right, we we know 57 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: now that it's a little bit um simplified. Yeah. In fact, 58 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: Heisenberg would go on, would be the one who right 59 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: exactly right. Uh, he was. While he was in high school, 60 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: there was a major event that played out across the 61 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: entire world and particularly in Europe. World War One. Yeah, 62 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: World War One happened between nineteen fourteen and nineteen eighteen. 63 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: Some of Heisenberg's academic contemporaries, or not even contemporaries, some 64 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: of his mentors had actually served in World War One 65 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: as various officers in the military, right right. Um, Heisenberg 66 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: himself had to leave school, leave high school to go 67 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: help harvest crops in Bavaria at the time. And um, 68 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: by by the time he got back after the war, 69 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: he was deeply involved in youth groups like the New 70 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: Boy Scouts that we're trying to rebuild the science and 71 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: artistic culture in Germany. Right, So keep in mind, like 72 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: at this time in Germany, things are really tumultuous. I mean, 73 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: World War One was already one of those events that 74 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: that played upon certain sentiments in Germany, and after the 75 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: war was concluded, that got even more messy because you 76 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: had the rest of the world, uh, you know, trying 77 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: to deal with this situation and make sure that it 78 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: could not happen again. I mean, this was one of 79 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: those wars that no one really expected whatever happened, because 80 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: the idea was that everyone would be building up their 81 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: armies to a point that anyone would be crazy to 82 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: attack anyone else. And as it turns out, humans are crazy, y'all. 83 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: So um, yeah, we it was. It was one of 84 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: those things where where as in an attempt to prevent 85 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: this from happening again, there were a lot of reparations 86 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: demanded against Germany. This in turn ended up fueling a 87 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: lot of resentment in Germany and would eventually give the 88 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: Nazi movement sort of the kind of foothold. Yeah, exactly, 89 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: it gave them that that that place to build some support, 90 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: because you had all these Germans who felt that uh, 91 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: that their lives had been ruined as a result of 92 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: the actions that followed World War One. Now that plays 93 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: a big role in Heisenberg's life because this is also 94 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: a time when physicists are making incredible discoveries. We are 95 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: learning more about the quantum world, that that atomic scale 96 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: world than ever before. The instruments that were being made 97 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: were becoming precise enough for us to look at things 98 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: on a level that we never could have seen before. 99 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: So there is a figurative explosion in physics at this time, 100 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: and a lot of and sometimes literal explosions. But a 101 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: lot of the physicists that were active at this time, 102 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,799 Speaker 1: particularly in Germany, were of Jewish descent. Now, of course 103 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: that would cause play another important role once we talk 104 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: about the rise of the Nazi movement and the entry 105 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: into World War two. Obviously that's going to to really 106 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: shake things up. But before we get to that point, 107 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: we talk more a little about about Heisenberg's educational background. 108 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: Once World War One had concluded, he attended the Maximilian 109 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: School at Munich and then eventually the University of Munich. 110 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: He originally went to study math, but according to reports, 111 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: a professor wouldn't let him into an advanced seminar, and 112 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 1: that's when he switched to physics. And just imagine what 113 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: the world would be like without the I mean, quantum physics, 114 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: for example, might have a very different approach, particularly when 115 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: you start talking about people like Schrodinger, and we will 116 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: and maybe we'll even mention his cat so uh. He 117 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: at the university, he studied physics with professors like Arnold 118 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: Johannes Wilhelm Sommerfeld, who was a theoretical physicist. Uh he 119 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: was a physicist who would stay on teaching even during 120 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: World War Two, so he stayed in Germany and continued 121 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: to teach. He did get a little upset that the 122 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: more than a little upset that his departments were being 123 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: completely yet purged of anyone who had any sort of 124 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: Jewish background, whether they self identified as Jewish or if 125 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: they had maybe an ancestor the three generations back who 126 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: was Jewish. Sure. Also, according to some reports, the Nazis 127 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: considered the theoretical physics as a field to be Jewish. Yes, yes, 128 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: because there were there were so many Jewish thinkers who 129 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: were the leaders of theoretical physics that the Nazis looked 130 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: down upon the entire discipline as being something that was 131 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: impure and should be completely purged. And in fact, instead 132 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: they wanted to have Deutsche physique that's German physics as 133 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: a study as opposed to theoretical physics, so that would 134 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: also disrupt the advances that could have happened during that time. 135 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: Another professor was Wilhelm Karl Ferner Otto, Fritz Franvien. You're 136 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 1: just enjoying saying these names, aren't you. Wil Helm veen 137 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: Is usually how we we say that, but yes, you're 138 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: The answer to that question is yes, I love I 139 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: love saying German names. Uh. He was a physicist and 140 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: he focused on black body radiation and electromagnetics magnetism rather 141 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: and he passed away in so he died before World 142 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: War two began. He died before the Nazis had really 143 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: taken control of Germany. Um there was Alfred Pringsheim who 144 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: was a professor of mathematics and had Jewish roots. During 145 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: the Nazi regime, he would see his entire fortune taken 146 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 1: from him. Everything he had inherited a huge fortune and 147 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 1: everything he owned was taken by the Nazis. He was 148 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:15,119 Speaker 1: eventually forced to change his name to Alfred Israel Prinsheim 149 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: because of his Jewish ancestry. One wonderfully racist, you know, 150 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 1: the Nazis were not known for being subtle with the 151 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: way that they treated any one of Jewish heritage. And 152 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 1: then a fourth professor was Arthur Rosenthal, who had a 153 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: focus on geometry as well as dynamical systems, also had 154 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: Jewish roots. He would be forced from his position in 155 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six by the Nazis and would eventually immigrate 156 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: to the United States and nineteen nine and taught at 157 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: the University of Michigan, which has come up a lot 158 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: in our conversations recently because that's where Sid went to. 159 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: But he taught the University of Michigan, then eventually taught 160 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: at the University of New Mexico and then later at 161 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: Purdue University. So these were the four professors who really 162 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: kind of sparked Heisenberg's fascination with physics and mathematics, and 163 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: this is founding in in those subjects exactly, So Somerfeld, Veen, Pringsheim, 164 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: and Rosenthal Uh. Then in nineteen two Heisenberg went to 165 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: Goodingen Goodingen as a University of Goodingen to study physics 166 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: under some more famous physicists, including Max Bourne, whose focus 167 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: was on quantum mechanics, particularly in statistical interpretation of the 168 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,719 Speaker 1: wave functioned, which we will talk about again and a 169 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: little bit because Schrodinger was definitely a wave functioned guy. 170 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,559 Speaker 1: As it turns out, Heisenberg was different. He did not 171 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: really look at the wave function of quantum physics. He 172 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: was looking at something else. And now I'll explain that 173 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: when we get there, because that's fun for me. Um. 174 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 1: The born Max Boorne was also the director of theoretical 175 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: physics at the university and was Jewish, so he immigrated 176 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: to the United Kingdom when the Nazis came into power 177 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: in Germany and continued to research particle physics, well well 178 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: not quite particle physics, quantum physics, and theoretical physics, as 179 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: well as teaching in the UK. Then you had James Frank, 180 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: who was a physicistant, studied atomic and subatomic collisions, particularly 181 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: electrons colliding with adams, and also was of Jewish heritage. 182 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 1: So he would leave Germany in nineteen thirty three for 183 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: the United States and would later participate in what was 184 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 1: known as the Manhattan Project. We could do a full 185 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: episode on the Manhattan Project that in fact. Yeah, it's 186 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: an amazing story. Um. And here's another great story with 187 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: James Frank. So he won the Nobel Prize in n 188 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: for physics. He left the gold medal, the Nobel Prize 189 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: medal back in Germany when he left to essentially flee 190 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: to the United States. Um. There was another physicist named 191 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: George de Heavasy. And I know I'm saying that name wrong, 192 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: so I greatly apologize. But for once, we're talking about 193 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: someone who's not German, so I can't say his name, 194 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 1: but he he in order to protect this gold medal 195 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: from being taken by the Nazis and melted down, he 196 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: dissolved the metal and acid and then put the solution 197 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: on a shelf, so it's a solution with dissolved gold 198 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: on the shelf. World War two is over, he goes back, 199 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: the solution is still on the shelf. He then precipitates 200 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: that solution, precipitating the gold out of the acid, and 201 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: he used the gold to melt it back into the 202 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: metal and meant a new and meant a new metal 203 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 1: so that they can give it uh back to James Frank. 204 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 1: So that I thought was a really cool story. Then 205 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 1: there's another professor he studied under was David Hilbert was 206 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: a mathematician who focused on geometry and functional analysis who 207 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: retired in n so he lived to see the Nazis 208 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: purge Germany of Jewish mathematicians and physicists, and was later 209 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: asked at a state dinner. He was actually asked a 210 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: question about what was the state of mathematics after it 211 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: had been quote unquote free of Jewish influence, and his 212 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: response was, there's no study of mathematics anymore. He was 213 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: essentially saying that the actions of the Nazis had effectively 214 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: into the entire field because they had they had removed 215 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: or or had caused to flee all of the leading 216 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: thinkers and instead, including like Einstein. So they were turning 217 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: mathematics and science into a political thing, and by doing that, 218 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: they were saying that these other things that did not 219 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: fit that political regime as invalid. And that's not the 220 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: way science works, not the way mathematics works, but that's 221 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: how we're demanding it. It can be a very effective 222 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: means of controlling a population by controlling their education. Sure, 223 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: but also it also ends up meaning that you really you, 224 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,719 Speaker 1: you just throw a huge monkey wrench into any kind 225 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: of advancement in those fields. So before World War two, 226 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: this is this is all happening before World War two, 227 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: and Heisenberg is studying under these different professors, so during 228 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: these years he has the ability to really pursue his 229 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: interests in theoretical physics and mathematics. So, uh, this was 230 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: on the in the nineteen twenties, and so it was 231 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 1: before even the Third Wreck was coming into power at all, right, Right, 232 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: So that these are in the years between World War 233 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: One and the Nazis rise to power. So during those years, 234 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: that's when Heisenberg was studying. And while many of his 235 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: professors would end up having to flee or would be 236 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: removed from their jobs, at this time none of that 237 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: was necessarily evident that that was going to happen, So 238 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: he spent his time really talking with some of the 239 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: leading thinkers of the day when it comes to theoretical 240 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: physics and mathematics, right um so Ine he earned his 241 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: PhD from the University of Munich and um went to 242 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: become an assistant to his old professor Maxi Born at 243 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: the University of getting In and so in four he 244 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: would go to the University of Copenhagen and begin work 245 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: with Niels Henrik David Bore, who was Danish, not German, 246 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: but a Danish physicist and uh and of course he 247 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: was really interested in atomic radiation and atomic structure, and 248 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: we talked about the Boor model of the atom earlier 249 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: in the podcast um so. In nineteen six Heisenberg would 250 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: go to the University of Copenhagen for about a year 251 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: and then leave. But in ninety six there was a 252 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: position opening opening up at the University of Copenhagen for 253 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: a lecturer in theoretical physics. So Boor recommended Heisenberg, thinking 254 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: that Heisenberg was an up and coming leader in this space, 255 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: and so Heisenberg became the lecturer and theoretical physics at 256 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: the University of Copenhagen. Bore himself would be at Copenhagen 257 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: for quite some time until nineteen forty three, where he 258 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: would eventually flee to Sweden to escape the Nazis. Nineteen five, 259 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: that's when Heisenberg publishes his theory of quantum mechanics. So 260 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: he was of the ripe old age of twin d 261 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: three years old, twenty three years old, and he is uh, 262 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: he is he is presenting a completely um well, he's 263 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: presenting his own, his own perspective on what quantum mechanics 264 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: actually is. As we'll see, that ends up getting kind 265 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: of assimilated into a unified view by looking at some 266 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: some other theories that Heisenberg did not necessarily agree with 267 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: at the time. Nope, not so much at all. As 268 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: it turns out, physicists, like any other type of human being, 269 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: can occasionally get very married to specific ideas and maybe 270 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: a little bit snarky. Yeah, there's some there's some great 271 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: quotes that will be reading. Yeah, but yeah, it turns 272 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: out that not everybody agreed on the behavior of particles 273 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: at that level because they were first of all, there 274 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: was no way to really directly observe them, so it's 275 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: all hypothetical, and it was mostly things like your equations 276 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: are are not as easy to understand my equations, therefore 277 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: my equations are better. That kind of thing. In fact, 278 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: that really is one of the arguments. So in n seven, 279 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: at the age of twenty six, you know, he's he's 280 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: definitely hitting that that middle age there for physicists. Twenty 281 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: six years old, he becomes the professor of theoretical physics 282 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: at the University of Leipsig and this made him the 283 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 1: youngest full professor in Germany at the time. Yeah, so 284 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: he was certainly making a name for himself in the 285 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: in the academic world. In nineteen nine he goes on 286 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: a lecture tour of the United States and Japan and India, 287 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: uh and in nineteen thirty two he received the Nobel 288 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: Prize in Physics for his discovery of the allotropic forms 289 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: of hydrogen. It was is for from that paper that 290 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: he had published about quantum mechanics. Out of that, one 291 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: of the applications was this discovery. Right. So, in case 292 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: you're wondering what the heck is an allotrope, it's a 293 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: different structural modification of an element. So let's take carbon. 294 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: Carbon is a great example. When you have a certain 295 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: structure of carbon, it forms graphite. Different structure of carbon 296 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: forms diamond too, slightly different substances. Yeah, these these different 297 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: these different manifestations of the same element. I mean, it's 298 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: it's the exact same element, it's just the way that 299 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: it's been or the way that it arranges itself determines 300 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: its qualities. And graphite and diamond are like nine day 301 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: they're incredibly different. So that's what an allotrope is is 302 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: these different manifestations of an element that have very different qualities. 303 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: With the case of hydrogen, we're talking about ortho hydrogen 304 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: and parahydrogen. Don't ask me what that actually means, because 305 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: I'm not a physicist or a chemist, so I am 306 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: incapable of answering me neither. I am. I'm at a 307 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: loss there, but I do know that In ninety seven, 308 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: Heisenberg married Elizabeth Schumacher, who he would go on to 309 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: have seven children with over the course of their marriage. Wow. 310 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: Now this is also the time when we're starting to 311 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: see the Nazis come into power in World War Two 312 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: is beginning, uh, and this was this becomes a pretty 313 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: muddy area of Heisenberg's life because it's hard to know 314 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: which historical records are the most accurate. Right, There's there's 315 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: a lot of contention within the historical community about um 316 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: what exactly Heisenberg's personal views and u and roles were 317 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: in In all of this, he had become the target 318 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: of of Johannes Stark. Na, I'm just er apologize our English. 319 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: Our English pronunciation in German pronunciation are different and and 320 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: and to be fair, the vocal downside of my family 321 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: is is really more like Polish Russian. So Johannes Stark 322 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: was also a physicist, but he was and he was 323 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: a physicist in fact, who in his UH in the 324 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: twenties had published a paper by Einstein. He had act 325 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: um Uh solicited Einstein to write a paper for the 326 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: publication that he was editing, and it was a publication 327 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: that would eventually lead Einstein to ruminate upon the general 328 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: theory of relativity. It was sort of a kind of 329 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: a precursor to his general theory, which meant that in 330 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,959 Speaker 1: a way, Johannes Stark was very much part of what 331 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: made Einstein a worldwide phenomenon. Now, the reason why I 332 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: say that's really interesting, or perhaps he might even say ironic, 333 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: is that Johannes Stark would align himself with the Nazi regime. 334 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: He wanted essentially to be the fewer of physics, which 335 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: is that's I mean, that's exactly the way I saw 336 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: it worded when I was reading the biography, which is 337 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: kind of terrifying. But he he also aligned himself with 338 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: the Deutsche Physics movement, the the German physics movement, and 339 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: he said that because Heisenberg continued to teach Einstein's theories 340 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 1: and the classroom in Einstein's theories, of course we're not 341 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: part of this Deutsche physics, uh movement, that he was 342 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: what what Stark would call a white Jew or an 343 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: arian Jew, someone who is not Jewish by heritage, but 344 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: is by association, because he continues to teach these thoughts 345 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: that Jewish mathematicians and physicists had come up with, so 346 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: that somehow that meant that he was a traitor. Yes, so, 347 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: um So Stark was very much opposed to Heisenberg and 348 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: didn't feel that Heisenberg should should have any sort of 349 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: position of authority. That did not stop Heisenberg from having 350 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: that position. He was obviously very important to the university 351 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 1: and was one of the few protected. Of course, part 352 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 1: of it was that he did not actually have any 353 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: Jewish ancestry that anyone could determine, so that kept him 354 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: somewhat safe, right sure, um you know, there's part of 355 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: the debate about Heisenberg is whether or not he um 356 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: he stayed in order to uh to help preserve Germany's 357 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: scientific and cultural communities, or whether he was actually working 358 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 1: for the Nazi Party. Um he he was made the 359 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: director of the German Adam bomb project and spent about 360 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: five years working on that, supposedly, during which another portion 361 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: of the debate is whether he was working towards a 362 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: nuclear reactor or nuclear weapons, and no one is really 363 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: entirely sure. Supposedly he gave a report to Nazi official 364 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: Albert spear Um that as of one or so, it 365 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: would take three or four years for them to build 366 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: a nuclear weapon and that that is part of why 367 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: the Nazi Party said, I'll forget this nuclear weapon thing, 368 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: let's go with nuclear reactors to help drive Sure, um 369 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: and uh so, but but you know, that's that's There's 370 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: been other research. Um. For for example, one Paul Lawrence 371 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: Rose wrote an entire book called Heisenberg and the Nazi 372 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: Stomic Bomb Project that stated that, uh, Heisenberg wasn't being 373 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: evasive to the Nazi Party, that rather, he was being 374 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: truthful due to a basic misunderstanding of the way that 375 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: nuclear fission worked, and that by the time he figured 376 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: it out, it was when the war was already winding 377 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: down and he started to hear about the atrocities that 378 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 1: the Nazi Party had committed and kind of reactively recreated 379 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: this image of himself as as having been an anti 380 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: Nazi the entire time. And that's the thing is that 381 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: it's it's impossible for us to say one way or 382 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: the other because there are conflicting reports and and really 383 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's just it's a it's a difficult thing. Again. 384 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: Once again, we take our our our podcasting hats off 385 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: to our sister podcast Stuff you missed in history class 386 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: that deals with this kind of stuff all the time. 387 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: Oh sure, and and especially you know, everything surrounding the 388 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: Nazi Party is incredibly sticky. Um. You know, some some 389 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: of my favorite favorite stories about that time or stuff 390 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: like like like like Lenie Reefinstahl, who was one of 391 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 1: the who was the propagandist or a documentary filmmaker for 392 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: the Nazi Party, And I mean she she took tea 393 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: with Hitler frequently and has claimed forever that she never 394 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: knew about the atrocities that were going on. And so 395 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: it's it's it's one of those things like who do 396 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: you believe? Yeah, and uh yeah, getting back into into 397 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: the what Heisenberg was going through at this time. So 398 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: there is there's an argument to be made that he 399 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: was trying to preserve the scientific community in Germany as 400 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: best he could, because there were others who were also 401 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: trying to do that. Max Planck, for example, was also 402 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: trying to um to do that. Although Plank had hoped 403 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,479 Speaker 1: that the the rise of the Nazis was just a 404 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 1: temporary kind of kerfuffle and that it wasn't going to 405 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 1: balloon into this incredible conflict that would span the entire globe, 406 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: he just had no he had no concept of that 407 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 1: actually happening, so he had I had to stay and 408 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: to try and keep the German departments of mathematics and 409 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 1: physics as intact as possible. So it could be that 410 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: that's the case, We honestly don't know. In ninety one, 411 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: Heisenberg becomes the professor of physics at the University of 412 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: Berlin and the director of the kaiserville Helm Institute for Physics, 413 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: and in nineteen forty five Heisenberg is taken prisoner by 414 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: American troops and is sent to England. UH. He's freed 415 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty six and returns to Germany and helps 416 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: rebuild the Institute for Physics at Guttingen and then UH 417 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: that eventually becomes the Max Planck Institute for Physics, which 418 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: would eventually relocate, and I believe I believe Heisenberg personally 419 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: renamed the institute them on Max Plunk. And he would 420 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,959 Speaker 1: continue to travel and give lectures about his work, in 421 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: fact doing so almost right up to when he died. 422 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: He died in on February one, nineteen seventy six, after 423 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: developing cancer, so he was very much active in the 424 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: world of lectures and academia. Well after the end of 425 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: World War Two. Yeah, towards the end of his life 426 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: he became interested in plasma physics and a thermonuclear processes. 427 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: So see, it's uh, you know, it's certainly one of 428 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: those interesting timelines. And in a moment, we're going to 429 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 1: really dive into what his contributions were in the field 430 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: of quantum mechanics and give a full explanation or as 431 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 1: as full as we possibly can make it of what 432 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 1: the uncertainty principle is all about, as well as why 433 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: it's important in technology, because yes, this does have to 434 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: do with tech. It's just going to take us a 435 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 1: while to get there. But before we jump into that, 436 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break to thank our sponsor. Alright, 437 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: So now it's time to dive into quantum mechanics. I 438 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 1: gotta tell you, I'm not really certain about this. I'm 439 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: just gonna keep making that joke excellent until it's funny. Um. So, yeah, 440 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: he was. Heisenberg had worked in theoretical physics and quantum 441 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: mechanics during the early early days of the discipline, and 442 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: he was particularly interested in studying the radiation from an atom. 443 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: But here's the thing that he was also interested in 444 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: seeing what was actually observable, you know, really look at 445 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: the atom and see what you could actually see it 446 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: because we had all these hypothetical particles in these theoretical particles, 447 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: things that that should exist based upon the math involved. 448 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: But but but the science at the time was based 449 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: on on bombarding these these tiny, tiny, tiny sub atomic 450 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 1: particles with um with things like gamma radiation and then 451 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: observing what we could observe, right, And so he began 452 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: to differentiate between what you could observe and what you 453 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: could not, and then he started to notice things. He 454 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 1: said that, you know, we can't really always assign a 455 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: position in space to a specific electron at any given time, 456 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: and we can't follow electrons around their orbits. It's it's 457 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: not like a planetary orbit that we can watch continuously, right, 458 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: It's more like there's an area that an electron could 459 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: be in, as opposed to we can specifically point out 460 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: that this is where the electron is at any given moment, 461 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: or this is the direction it is traveling at any 462 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: given moment. And this would start to plant the seed 463 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: in his mind for the uncertainty principle. So first he 464 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: said that, you know, bores postulation that the the the 465 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 1: orbits of electrons are around the nucleus was more or 466 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: less correct. You couldn't actually be certain of what those 467 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: orbits were because the unobservable nature of these. Yeah, there's 468 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: just no way to assign a figure to this. You 469 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: can't say the electron is in uh, this particular quadrant 470 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: around the nucleus um and you couldn't talk about really 471 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: the electron's velocity either. Velocity, by the way, is speed 472 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: plus direction, right, And so he started to say that 473 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: instead of using UM classic numbers, the kinds of numbers 474 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: that we would use to describe human scale physics, that 475 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: that we needed to use UM matrices. Yeah, and a 476 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: matrix is essentially an abstract mathematical structure. So this was 477 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: almost like talking about probabilities. It's it's kind of fuzzy, 478 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: it's not specific, it's not precise. And in fact, that 479 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: was Heisenberg's argument, was that precision is something that you 480 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: could strive for, but you were never ever going to get. Uh. 481 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: He kind of arrived at this gradually. So in nine 482 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: he was involved in a bit of a spat, a debate, 483 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: if you will, about a theoretical spat actually was real 484 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: spat about theory. Uh, but it was on. So you 485 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: had two sides to this debate. You had Heisenberg and 486 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: his his fellow physicists who thought of quantum mechanics in 487 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: the term of these matrix these these this abstract mathematic 488 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: way of describing the position or motion of an electron, 489 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: because again he was arguing that you could not define 490 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: it in a way that was like it's at x, 491 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: y and z coordinates. You could not do that, right, 492 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: I was using the matrix. And there was another set 493 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: of scientists who were trying to describe some atomic particles 494 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: as as waves the way that we would electromagnetic radiation. 495 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: Uli r own Trodinger, Yeah, Schrodinger Singer and is kitty cat? 496 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: Actually Schrodinger and the cat story is kind of interesting, 497 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: just a little side notes. So you've probably heard of 498 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: Schrodinger's cat, where Schrodinger was, uh, kind of giving a 499 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: thought experiment kind of thing to explain how how this 500 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: this other form, the matrix form of quantum mechanics is 501 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: a little weird. The idea that you have a cat 502 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: inside a box, and inside that box you also have 503 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: a little canister with poisonous gas in it. And there's 504 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: some explosive that has a that that will go off 505 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: at some point and I am giving a variation classic. 506 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: So so within half an hour, there's a fifty chance 507 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: that the explosive inside that canstor has gone off and 508 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: released the poisonous gas and little killed the cat. Yes, 509 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: Kitty is no more. One life down, eight to go. 510 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: There's also a fifty percent chance that the that the 511 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: explosion has not yet happened, and that Kitty is fine 512 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: but possibly very bored inside this box. And so the 513 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: thing is that because of uh, this this weird quantum effect, 514 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: and keep in mind this is really something that only 515 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: happens at the quantum level. When you get up to 516 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: the macro level that we see this is not actually 517 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: the case. But the idea is that the cat is 518 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: both alive and dead at the same time, and superposition 519 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: that has both states and superposition, and it's only when 520 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: you open up the box and observe the cat that 521 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: one of those two possibilities becomes true is true, and 522 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: the other one just becomes yeah, it goes away, and 523 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: that then you have either the live cat or the 524 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: dead cat, so that the cat is said to be 525 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: alive and debt at the same time until you observe it, 526 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: and that's when reality snaps into place and you suddenly 527 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: get one of the two results. And it was kind 528 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: of a way of saying, like this is just, you know, 529 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: kind of crazy to be one of those things we 530 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: always refer to anyway. So Schroinger's cat and Heisenberg's and 531 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: certainty principle both are trying to explain various weird things 532 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: about the quantum level. There's another one that we can 533 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: touch on also that gets confused with Heisenberg's and certainty principle, 534 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,959 Speaker 1: which is the idea that by observing something you actually 535 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: affect the outcome. So, in other words, when we're looking 536 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: at sub atomic particles, simply shining light onto them affects 537 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: their movement because we're talking about photons impacting subatomic particles, 538 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: which changes the pathway, which means just by taking an 539 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: observation in a measurement, you have changed what as what 540 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: was going to happen. So it makes it even more 541 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: impossible to predict things based upon the behaviors of stuff, 542 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: because just by observing it, you change what that outcome 543 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: actually is. Now that's not heisenberg'sun certainty principle either, but 544 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: it often gets confused. So we've got this debate. We've 545 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: got the wave mechanics debate, and that's Schrodinger's side, and 546 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: we've got the matrices debate, and that's heisenberg side. And 547 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: the debate was not always civil. Uh, there was there. 548 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: There was a quote that Heisenberg made to another physicist, 549 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: Wolfgang Ernst Pauli, which was, the more I think about 550 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: the physical portion of Schrodinger's theory, the more repulsive I 551 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: find it what Schrodinger writes about the visualizability. Visualizability, Boy, 552 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: that's a hard word. Of his theory is probably not 553 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: quite right. In other words, it's crap thick burn. Yeah, 554 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: that was a little that was a little rough. So 555 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: here's what the difference was between these two. Schroedinger's approach 556 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: required less complicated math to explain the relationship of a 557 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,240 Speaker 1: subotomic particles movement and and and uh, it's it's position 558 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: around a nucleus, for example, an electron around the nucleus 559 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: as an example. But it furthermore explained some of the 560 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: things that Heisenberg's theory couldn't really fully explain. It's sort 561 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: of it's sort of pushed them under the rug in 562 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: a way, because Heisenberg's approach showed that there were these 563 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: little quantum jumps quantum leaps as if, yes, exactly, there's 564 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: quantum leaps when you cannot quite solve the problem, or 565 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: you solve the problem and then you have to leap 566 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: into the next body and hopefully your next leap is 567 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,879 Speaker 1: the one that takes you home. No, in this case, 568 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,879 Speaker 1: the quantum jumps were the fact that you would see 569 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: electrons behave in a weird way, like suddenly an electron 570 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: would behave as if it had a higher amount of 571 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: energy than it normally would, and that was, you know, 572 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: Heisenberg's approach showed these jumps well with Schroedinger's approach, because 573 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 1: we're talking a continuous wave a wave function. It smooths 574 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: everything out, so you don't have these jagged, you know jumps, 575 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: you have just a smooth transition um. So the Schrodinger's 576 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: argument was that, hey, you know, I've looked at the 577 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 1: way you are calculating this, and I look at the 578 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: way I'm calculating this, and it turns out the outcomes 579 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: are the same. We're getting the same results, but mine 580 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: requires less complicated math and not all this mathematic abstraction 581 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: that you are insisting upon. So therefore I'm right and 582 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: you're wrong, or at least mine is more eloquent. So 583 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 1: you've got these two parties of physicists getting a little 584 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 1: caddy schroedanjer caddy. Perhaps, um, there are alive cats and 585 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: dead cats. But then, uh, it's interesting because you started 586 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: getting into other physicists getting into the game, including Ernst 587 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,760 Speaker 1: Pascual Jordan's or Jordans I suppose, who was a German 588 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: physicist who would actually later joined the Nazi Party become 589 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,919 Speaker 1: part of that movement, in fact enlisted in the Luftwaffe Um. 590 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: And then you had Paul de Rak who was an 591 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 1: English physicist who both created unified equations that took the 592 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: wave function approach and the matrices approach and combine them 593 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: into what was called a transformation theory, which is the 594 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: very basis of quantum mechanics. So again this is all theoretical. 595 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: It's essentially trying physicists trying to figure out how to 596 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: to apply the same sort of observation that they had 597 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: in classical interpretation of physics on the macro scale to 598 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: the quantum level, which is the incredibly tiny scale, the 599 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 1: atomic or subatomic scale at which the rules do not apply. Right. So, 600 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: but the transformation theory ended up showing that there was 601 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: a combination of both Schroedinger's approach and Heisenberg's approach the 602 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: sort of wave particle duality that we know about with 603 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics. That's kind of what was coming out of 604 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,800 Speaker 1: this discussion. So instead of them both saying no, I'm right, no, 605 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: I'm right, these guys are like, well, actually you're both right. 606 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: Nic Yeah, light is a particle and a wave, and 607 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:07,359 Speaker 1: it gets boy, toy doesn't get even more crazy, Like 608 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 1: it seems magical to those of us who are used 609 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 1: to classical physics on that macro scale, because if things 610 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: on the macro scale behave the same way that things 611 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: in the quantum scale behaved, it would be like we 612 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: were living in Harry Potter World or something right right there. 613 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: There would be a lot of a lot of you know, 614 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: people suddenly jumping to the left right, yeah, because you know, 615 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: or you could never really be sure where someone was 616 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: or how quickly they were moving and and emitting light. 617 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: When they did it, they'd be half dead and half 618 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 1: alive until you looked at them. Yeah, there's a whole 619 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: bunch of things that would be pretty bizarre in our world. 620 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: Lauren and I have a bit more to say about 621 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: Heisenberg in this classic episode, but before we get to that, 622 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and thank our sponsor. So, 623 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,839 Speaker 1: Heisenberg studied Jordan and DeRos papers and found that there 624 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,240 Speaker 1: were problems when ever each right to measure the basic 625 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 1: physical variables appearing in the equations. And by physical variables, 626 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: I mean an electrons position and its momentum. So that 627 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: led Heisenberg to create the famous principle of uncertainty, which 628 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,320 Speaker 1: you did in ven. We usually call that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. 629 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: So here's here's how it breaks down. The more precisely 630 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: you determine the position of a sub atomic particle, for example, 631 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: an electron around the nucleus. So the more precisely you 632 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: determine its position, the less precisely you can know about 633 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 1: the momentum at that moment, and vice versa. So if 634 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,399 Speaker 1: you more precisely determine the subotomic particle's momentum, the less 635 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: precisely you can know its actual position. Right, Um, So Specifically, 636 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: he was saying that um that running the calculation for this, 637 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,919 Speaker 1: for this determination of the position and the momentum um 638 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: necessarily contains errors, the product of which physically cannot be 639 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: less than the quantum constant h plucks constant, which is 640 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: that the smallest unit the quantum of action in an atom. Right, 641 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,760 Speaker 1: And so what he's saying here is that it doesn't 642 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: matter how advanced your measurement apparatus is. In fact, there 643 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: was one point where More criticized Heisenberg's approach because he 644 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 1: said that he was using essentially microscopes that were not 645 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: precise enough, and in fact I made an error. And 646 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: then Heisenberg got really upset a Bore, and the two 647 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: of them had a falling out that lasted about a year, 648 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,359 Speaker 1: and then Heisenberg eventually wrote a paper and acknowledge He said, 649 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 1: you know, Bore has criticized this because of such and such. 650 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: An acknowledged that in fact, there was an error, but 651 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,479 Speaker 1: said that ultimately that error was beside the point because 652 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: it would not matter how precise that was, the fact 653 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,399 Speaker 1: remained that the more you would learn about one thing, 654 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 1: the less you could know about the other. That's the 655 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: uncertainty or complimentarianism is another way that some people have 656 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 1: said that there's this complementary relationship between the momentum and 657 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 1: the position. So in case you want to know what 658 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: momentum is, that's mass times velocity, velossities that speed and direction. 659 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: So that's important to know. So on the human scale, 660 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: this uncertainty is completely negligible. There's you might as well 661 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:11,840 Speaker 1: just throw it out the window because on our scale 662 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: it just doesn't that it doesn't factor into it. It's 663 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: such a tiny thing. But when you look at the 664 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 1: smaller scales, this tiny tiny thing becomes huge because you're 665 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 1: looking at things on an incredibly small scale. And because 666 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: we can't know but with precision both a subatomics particles 667 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 1: a position and its momentum, we cannot really make predictions 668 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: about what's going to happen in the future. And in fact, 669 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: uh this is where Heisenberg says causality becomes a problem 670 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: because if you cannot determine that subatomic particles position and momentum, 671 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 1: you cannot actually know what's going to happen next. So 672 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 1: if you were to expand this out, now this is 673 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,360 Speaker 1: this is to the absurd, But if you were to 674 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: expand this out, you could say that you cannot for 675 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 1: certain know that by doing a certain action, a particular 676 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,919 Speaker 1: effect is going to follow. That's not really the case 677 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: with classical physics again because we're talking up the macro scale, 678 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: but on the qualm scale, that's the case. We cannot 679 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 1: really know what will happen from one moment to the 680 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: next because we can't know enough about all the factors 681 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: to make that determination, which is which is kind of 682 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: wonderful and kind of terrifying right simultaneously, and though it's 683 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 1: a cat in a box yep. And and then this 684 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,879 Speaker 1: also ties into that observation problem, right because if we 685 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: even if we observe the phenomenon, then we're affecting, we're 686 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,600 Speaker 1: changing the phenomens. We're making it even more impossible to 687 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: determine what the effect is going to be. The cause 688 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: and effect at the scale is something that becomes purely 689 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: theoretical because as soon as you try and apply practical 690 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: approaches to it, it all breaks down. And we promise 691 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: this really does relate directly to technology. Yep, we're getting there. 692 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,359 Speaker 1: So we then show that light can be interpreted as 693 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: both wave functions and as a particle. That's with Boor 694 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 1: and Heisenberg together working they were able to kind of 695 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,320 Speaker 1: come to this conclusion. And as soon as you decide 696 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 1: how to observe a particular experiment, that interpretation becomes true 697 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 1: and the their interpretation collapses. So in other words, if 698 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: you're looking at light as a wave, you see it 699 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: as a wave. If you look at light as a particle, 700 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 1: you see it as a particle, and the other half 701 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: of that interpretation goes away, which is insane. They were 702 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,240 Speaker 1: talking about it about how how you observe the experiment, 703 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,800 Speaker 1: we disturb untouched nature and we become limited and learning 704 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: about nature as it really is. In other words, we 705 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: have a very narrow view into what reality is, and 706 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 1: once we focus that view on something, we cannot know 707 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: everything else that's outside of that view. So imagine that 708 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: you have a telescope and you are using that telescope 709 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,319 Speaker 1: to look at something that's on the distant horizon, and 710 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,359 Speaker 1: you can see that, you can see the thing that's 711 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,239 Speaker 1: on the horizon, but everything else has faded away. It's 712 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 1: like all of that's just gone. That's kind of what 713 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 1: the sort of an analogy as to what he was 714 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,320 Speaker 1: saying here, which is disturbing to think about in a way. 715 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: But that's how reality works, so you've got to kind 716 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 1: of deal with it um. So Heisenberg's uncertainty principle in 717 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,840 Speaker 1: Shringer's wave functions become the basis of the Copenhagen interpretation 718 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 1: of quantum mechanics. And uh, the reason why we even 719 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 1: did this podcast besides the fact that I think someone 720 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 1: actually asked us to and Lauren's going to look that up, 721 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,400 Speaker 1: but the reason why we're doing this is because Heisenberg's 722 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,880 Speaker 1: uncertainty principle plays into the way that we use electronics today, 723 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,239 Speaker 1: because now we're working with electronics that have components that 724 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 1: are on this tiny, tiny skin at least the nano scale, 725 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,280 Speaker 1: which is one one factor up from atomic but far away. 726 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 1: The flow of electrons is critical for modern artronics absolutely, 727 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 1: and while we're making these tiny transistors or transistor elements 728 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: that are part of these integrated circuits, you know that 729 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: the whole purpose of transistors is to guide the flow 730 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 1: of electrons to allow them to pass or to not 731 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 1: allow them to pass through a circuit. Well, if you 732 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 1: make the gates really thin, then Heisenberg's and certainty principle 733 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 1: tells us that there is a kind of a zone 734 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 1: in which you might find an electron, and because of 735 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:09,840 Speaker 1: the uncertainty about the electron's momentum or energy, sometimes that 736 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: electron can jump up an energy level because of our uncertainty. 737 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 1: We we you know, it just will pop up an 738 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,719 Speaker 1: energy level and then pop back down, which means that 739 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:21,800 Speaker 1: can be found in a slightly larger zone than you 740 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,919 Speaker 1: would not necessarily expect based upon its actual energy level, 741 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,880 Speaker 1: which can be problematic when when you've got these incredibly 742 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: thin gates that are supposed to be keeping an electrons 743 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,760 Speaker 1: on one side, right that that zone might extend beyond 744 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,440 Speaker 1: the far side of that gate. And if the zone 745 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,399 Speaker 1: extends beyond the far side of the gate, that means 746 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,560 Speaker 1: that it's possible for an electron to appear on the 747 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,959 Speaker 1: other side of the gate without having actually passed through 748 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,600 Speaker 1: that circuit, which means called electron tunneling. And since it's possible, 749 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 1: it happens, which which means that, yeah, unless we figure 750 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,839 Speaker 1: out ways of getting around these you know, these these 751 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,640 Speaker 1: fundamental quantum phenomena that we you know, there's a point 752 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,360 Speaker 1: where you cannot make the components any smaller because the 753 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,279 Speaker 1: electrons just won't play ball you're just gonna go every 754 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,560 Speaker 1: way that the fundamental quantum traffic laws, as you put 755 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,280 Speaker 1: it in our exactly. Yeah, yeah, it means that that 756 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,920 Speaker 1: you're you're gonna get errors in your various chips because 757 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: they will not be allowing the or or preventing the 758 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: electrons from flowing the way they're supposed to, because the 759 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,319 Speaker 1: electrons are just gonna be able to tunnel right through 760 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:32,360 Speaker 1: when when those uh those energy levels bump up uncertainly. 761 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: It's bizarre, it's so weird to think about um. But 762 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,360 Speaker 1: engineers have found ways of working around that, using different 763 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,279 Speaker 1: materials that uh that that minimize this so that they 764 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 1: can continue to make things smaller and smaller. But we 765 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,360 Speaker 1: will reach a point when that is just not going 766 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,760 Speaker 1: to be the way that chips will be designed anymore. 767 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 1: Either will will plateau and we won't be able to 768 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,880 Speaker 1: make chips with smaller components, or will find a different 769 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: means of using suba comic particles to process information, and 770 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,319 Speaker 1: we'll move away from electron based chips, which is hard 771 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,640 Speaker 1: to consider. It's really weird to think about. Yeah, that's 772 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: not that that that is beyond my entire brain right now. Yeah, No, 773 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,680 Speaker 1: I'm actually starting to feel a nosebleed coming on because 774 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,560 Speaker 1: I'm a I'm an English literature major. Al Right, well, 775 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,640 Speaker 1: let's let's let's bring this back to something, to something 776 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,120 Speaker 1: a little bit more peaceful and serene. I have I 777 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 1: have a quote from Heisenberg via via pbs um. He 778 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,360 Speaker 1: once said, natural science does not simply describe and explain nature. 779 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,840 Speaker 1: It's part of the interplay between nature and ourselves. It 780 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,600 Speaker 1: describes nature as exposed to our method of questioning. That's 781 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,000 Speaker 1: pretty cool, which I thought was nice. I thought that 782 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 1: that was a much less nosebleedy way of saying that 783 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,839 Speaker 1: that we mess stuff up scientifically. And also it also 784 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 1: is less uh nasty than his note to U or 785 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 1: note about Schrodinger. Right. So um oh, I found the 786 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: name of the person who requested this via Facebook. This 787 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,920 Speaker 1: was from listener Peter. So Peter asked us about this, 788 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 1: and I hope that we were able to answer your 789 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 1: questions to uh your satisfaction. It was certainly to the 790 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,279 Speaker 1: best of our ability, keeping in mind that neither of 791 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 1: us are theoretical physicists or mathematicians for that matter. Uh. 792 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,960 Speaker 1: Fascinating subject and there are a lot of books out 793 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:22,040 Speaker 1: there that are really really good about explaining Heisenberg's role 794 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:26,840 Speaker 1: and also the contributions of his contemporaries, everyone from Einstein 795 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:32,200 Speaker 1: to Somerville to Schrodinger to Toll, all the great physicists 796 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 1: of the nineteen twenties and thirties who have really made 797 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 1: modern technology possible through their discoveries. Well, guys, I hope 798 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,560 Speaker 1: you enjoyed this classic episode of tech Stuff. It was 799 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,000 Speaker 1: fun to go back and look at this episode from 800 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,640 Speaker 1: the archives. I hope you guys enjoyed it. If you 801 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: have any suggestions for future episodes of tech Stuff, whether 802 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,920 Speaker 1: it is a technology, a person who is instrumental in tech, 803 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,880 Speaker 1: maybe a company, Maybe there's someone you want me to interview, 804 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,240 Speaker 1: let me know. Send me a message. The email address 805 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 1: is tech stuff at how stuff works dot com. Or 806 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,279 Speaker 1: draw me a line on Facebook or Twitter to handle it. 807 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,360 Speaker 1: Both of those is tech stuff hs W. Don't forget 808 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,880 Speaker 1: we have an Instagram account. You should be following it 809 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,480 Speaker 1: by now. You naughty so and so, and I'll talk 810 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:24,840 Speaker 1: to you again really soon for more on this and 811 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot 812 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:37,600 Speaker 1: Com