1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: My name is Matt. Our compatriot Noal is on an 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: adventure but will be returning soon. They called me Ben, 7 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: who are joined as always with our super producer Paul 8 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: Mission Control decads. Most importantly, you are you, You are here, 9 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you 10 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: to know. Today's episode, Folks, is going to hit on 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: a tremendously important and at times disturbing topic that may 12 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: not be suitable for all listeners. Uh. This does contain 13 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: descriptions of massive, massive crimes, and it comes in part 14 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: to us from fellow conspiracy realist Ashley, who was responding 15 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: to an earlier story in a strange news segment we 16 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: did where we explored Uttar Pradesh's controversial proposed bill to 17 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: incentivize what's known as population control. And Matt, this is 18 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: this is one of the stories that you brought to 19 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: bear um just maybe a week or so ago. Yeah, 20 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: it wasn't long ago at all, and it just happened 21 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: to be something that popped up in a news feed. 22 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about the context within India's history 23 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: of these kinds of practices that they are putting forward 24 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: incentivizing population control. But man Ashley wrote to us and 25 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: really started open our eyes to just what's been happening 26 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: there for decades. Yes. Yeah, and we'd like to read 27 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: Ashley's letter in full. So here's what she says. Hi, guys, 28 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: I was listening to your latest stream news and heard 29 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: you ask for more insight into population control within India. 30 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 1: I just graduated with a degree in international development and 31 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: social change, and I took a few classes during my 32 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: academic career surrounding the idea of overpopulation and population control. 33 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: India was heavily focused on this because they had a 34 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: history of both government forced sterilization and government coerced sterilization. 35 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 1: In the nineteen seventies, thousands of Indian men were rounded 36 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: up at gunpoint and given vasectomies, and it continues. Ashley says. 37 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: While that is thankfully no longer practiced, course of policies 38 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: like the one you discussed today are still nothing new 39 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: to India. Women are coerced into receiving tubal litigation sterilization 40 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: as through promises of land subsidies, livestock or rations. These 41 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: promises are not always delivered on Many women have spoken 42 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: on being left without receiving any of the incentives they 43 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: were promised. The government agents whose jobs are to recruit 44 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: volunteers that's in quotations for sterilization, aren't paid until they 45 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: meet a certain quota, so they become a victim of 46 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: the system as well. In less extreme cases, long term 47 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 1: birth control methods such as i u D s are 48 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: pushed on women and even if they complain of severe 49 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 1: side effects and requests to have them removed early, they 50 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: will often be refused removal. There have been many cases 51 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: of women having to remove their own i u d 52 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: s at home, which Ashley adds is quite dangerous and 53 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: painful and actually concludes with A great source you can 54 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: use is the documentary Something Like a War by deep 55 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: A Don Raj that's d H A n R a J. 56 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: It does show footage of tubal ligations, so it can 57 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: be a little graphic, but I honestly found watching the 58 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: women writhing in agony on jim Matts after the procedure 59 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: with no painkillers covered in flies to be more disturbing 60 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: than anything else, and that's where we'll leave the letter today. 61 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: This was important. First, who want to thank Ashley for 62 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: spreading awareness about this, and then we want to explore 63 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: this conspiracy and see what it means for the present 64 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: and the future of India's population as well as the 65 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: world's population. So we noted previously, there's an intense dilemma 66 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: faced by both India's government and its people. We're talking 67 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: about a part of the world where children often become 68 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: primary caretakers for their parents and grandparents. With that, how 69 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: can you convince someone to go against centuries of tradition 70 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: and in some cases what people consider a material necessity 71 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: for life and old age. Well, to understand that, we 72 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: have to understand a little more about India. Here are 73 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: the facts. As we've discussed before, India is awesome. I 74 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: don't I don't think he gets enough credit. I mean, 75 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: you know this, It's an ancient and it's got a huge, 76 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: huge population and a storied history. When we say ancient, 77 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: we're not fully around. This is one of my favorite facts. 78 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: The first person to clearly define the concept of zero yes, zero, 79 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: the idea of the number zero was a Hindu astronomer 80 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: and mathematician way back in six Other people other civilizations 81 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: had similar concepts, but this guy made it official. And 82 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: you could spend years reading the history of human civilization 83 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: on the Indian subcontinent and uh have the stuff they 84 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: don't want you to know. Guarantee that you will still 85 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: never get to all of it. So much stuff happened 86 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: in this part of the world. Big takeaway here is 87 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: that modern civilization as we understand it today owes a 88 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: ton to innovations from India. India. India is like the 89 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: o G of countries and civilizations. We we talked about 90 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: this before as well. But India is the world's largest democracy, 91 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: that's very important democracy, and it's the second most populous 92 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: country on the planet and has a population that is 93 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: more than one point three billion I believe. Then you 94 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: said one point three six six something effect. Yeah, that 95 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: so a lot of humans. Uh, And in just a 96 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: few years it's been you know, it's been projected that 97 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: it will become the world's number one most populous country, 98 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: eclipsing China. There with that that metric and you know, 99 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: in in several episodes prior to this We've talked about 100 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: how difficult it is to plan for that many people 101 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: to have all of the infrastructure, everything from just a 102 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: a steady source of food to other things that humans need. 103 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: When you're when you're talking about a government, especially a democracy, 104 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: that's trying to make decisions about a lot of that 105 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: stuff in various states within that much larger country, and 106 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: and doing that for a population and of let's say 107 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: a couple hundred million, three millions something like that, it's 108 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: already herculean task. Now multiply that by a couple of times, 109 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: and my goodness. Yeah, there's a couple more things I'll 110 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: hit right here before we jump into some of the 111 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: other stuff. In the country itself, the entire India, it's 112 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: it makes up two point four percent of the world's 113 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: total land area, but it supports get this, fourteen percent 114 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: of the human population. Yea, the whole shebang. Also only 115 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: four percent of the world's water resources, which is going 116 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: to become increasingly difficult. We're saying that there are, in 117 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: addition to just the organizational hurdles that country of this 118 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: size has to deal with, there are also these other 119 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: factors uh population density right there. Yes, population density is 120 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: a huge one. Also, poverty and food insecurity are daily concerns. 121 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: We're talking about a part of the world where an 122 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: estimated fifty million people live on less than the equivalent 123 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: of two dollars per day, where just under two hundred 124 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: million nine point four million people are under nourished. Forty 125 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: six million children in India, according to the studies, remains stunted, 126 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: and twenty five point five million are also additionally, are 127 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: defined as wasted. This is a different term. Wasted means 128 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: something very different in the US. I think it's safe 129 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: to say in this case, it's something much more serious. 130 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: It means that these children do not weigh enough for 131 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: their height. That's a problem. This is also where some 132 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 1: of the major controversy that we're going to discuss in 133 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: this episode comes in the concept that there are so 134 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 1: many people, many of them suffering to one degree or 135 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 1: another um and what do you do about that as 136 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: a country, as a government, as a democracy. Very similarly 137 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: to their their northern neighbors, China, their government has they 138 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: become pretty concerned with this for a long time as well. 139 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: They've we're gonna we're gonna outline everything that they've been 140 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: doing from a population control standpoint since the nineteen fifties. 141 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: I think that might be where we start here today. 142 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: But the government is just worried how the rising population 143 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: is going to impact these already existing problems. And it's 144 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: really these two things we've outlined here inequality between people 145 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: that exist in India, as well as a population that 146 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: is growing, perhaps exceeding the means of a government and 147 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: even private industry to be able to help everyone and 148 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: give everyone a quality of life that would be considered standard. 149 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: This is interesting because sometimes there is a false equivalency 150 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: of sorts. Uh. Not everybody agrees that inequality and overpopulation 151 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 1: are two sides of the same coin. Some people believe 152 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: that's a false assumption, but other people are convinced that 153 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: population growth itself inherently leads to crushing inequality. And to 154 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: this end, we'll go back briefly to that story from 155 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: our Strange News segment. Udar Pradesh proposed a controversial bill 156 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 1: that was meant to incentivize lower birth rates, giving people perks. Essentially, 157 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: they would say, if you keep the number of children 158 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: you have down to this threshold, then those children will 159 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: have preferential treatment or guarantees as they're growing up and 160 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: also have better chances to enter higher education to get 161 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: preference in in certain employment situations, and this would apply 162 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: to the parents as well. So it was a measure 163 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: that proposed carrots in place of sticks. But this is 164 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: just one of several examples. There was also the Population 165 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: Regulation Bill of twenty nineteen, which, in addition to incentives, 166 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: in addition to carrots, had sticks had disincentives. It was 167 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,719 Speaker 1: aiming to punish parents who dared to have more than 168 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: two children. Without rehashing too much of this, it is 169 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: important to note currently this new bill in Udha Pradesh, 170 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: even if it passes, will not force birth control on people, 171 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: not physically at least, but it will spark an intense debate, 172 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: partially with the question that comes up whenever any government, 173 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: regardless of which country we're talking about, whenever any government 174 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: proposes a wide, sweeping law like this one that's supposed 175 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: to affect everybody, there's always one question, and it's a 176 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: good question. It's a question everybody should ask. Will this 177 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,839 Speaker 1: really apply to everyone? Or will the wealthy and connected 178 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 1: be exempt as they almost always are. The other thing 179 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: we're going to be dealing with today is the fact 180 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 1: that this really the thought of being sterilized goes against 181 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: a lot of cultural norms that exist in India and 182 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: many other parts of the world, and a lot of 183 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: it goes into how people view the concept of a vasectomy. 184 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: At least from a lot of the sources I've been 185 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: reading there, there's some misconceptions about the side effects or 186 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: the after effects of that procedure. There are many viewpoints 187 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: there that the procedure will in some way feminize a 188 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: masculine person, or will cause any person who gets that 189 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 1: procedure to lose their virility, lose their ability to in 190 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: some ways be a man, ultimately to lessen masculinity, which 191 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: is not seen as a positive. Yeah. Yeah, the idea 192 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: being that the would be uh, this would affect maybe 193 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: someone's hormonal balance rather than just removing their ability to 194 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: reproduce successfully. And because of all the different beliefs out 195 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: there and the very valid distrust of government, you can 196 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: see why a lot of people would be against this 197 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: or at the very least highly highly skeptical. There's also 198 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: something else that you will encounter in this part of 199 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 1: the world, in India and in other parts of Asia. 200 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: It can be treated as a given that you your 201 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 1: job once you grow up is to care for your 202 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: parents or grandparents or older relatives in in old age 203 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: when they reach what we would consider retirement age. Uh 204 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: they may or you know, uh, maybe maybe your father 205 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: passes away and your mother is elderly. Well, then it's 206 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 1: natural that she goes to live with you. So will 207 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: hear this phrase sometimes along the lines of something like 208 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: children are your life insurance slash retirement plan. Of course, 209 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: this doesn't apply to every single family, but it is 210 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: pretty common. I found that an overwhelming majority of people, 211 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: around eighty percent of elderly widows and widowers that are 212 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: over the age of sixty five live with one of 213 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: their children in like a joint family joint household situation. 214 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: This practice is so common, in fact, that India made 215 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: it official in two thousand seven due to concerns about 216 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: poverty in the elderly community, and they pass something called 217 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: the Maintenance and Welfare Parents and Senior Citizens Act. This 218 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: law legally requires children and grandchildren, so long as they're 219 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: not miners, to maintain the health and wellness of an 220 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: aging family member. They define maintenance as giving them food, 221 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: a place to stay, medical care to the best of 222 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: their ability. D and they define senior citizen as anybody's 223 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: over the age of sixty and Uh. One thing you've 224 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: got to remember. Unlike in the United States where we 225 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: have Social Security, where it was just something everybody pays 226 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: into essentially for people as they get older into a 227 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: retirement age to be able to have money or to 228 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: at least function in many basic ways. Let's say that's 229 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: what social security would do. Uh, that does not exist 230 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: in India, at least in the way we understand it. 231 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: And this means that the family members are just going 232 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: to be doing it on their own and have been 233 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: just doing it on your own. Take what you have 234 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: and make sure you have enough or at least, you know, 235 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: do everything you can to have enough to support your 236 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: family members who are older as well. And if the 237 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: population control bill passes, you have to imagine what do 238 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: those people who are let's say in childbearing age or 239 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: people who are you know, ready to have children or 240 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: they could have children. What happens to them if they don't, 241 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: or what if they only have two children or one 242 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: child rather than you know, more than that to kind 243 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: of spread the weight of needing to take care of 244 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: the elders. And what if that kid moves. See, that's 245 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: one of the first things that I thought about is this, 246 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: this can put a certain segment of the population in 247 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: a precarious position. So you're saying, like, imagine you're those 248 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: people mat just describe your response could in a very 249 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: valid way be So you're saying that you're passing the 250 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: like you're passing the responsibility of caring for the elderly 251 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: from you know, this government that they've spent their lives 252 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: paying taxes to. And you're saying it's on me, it's 253 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: on my family, but it's like legally on me. But 254 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: then at the same time, you're saying, I cannot take 255 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: the steps to create the amount of children that I 256 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: would like to create. So what's what it's gonna happen 257 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: to me down the line? You know what I mean? 258 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: And that's yeah, yeah, yeah, where my family line. And 259 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: this leads us to the problem with overpopulation. That's that's 260 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: what I'm calling at least, And it may not be 261 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: the problem that you expect us to mention. What are 262 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: we talking about? Write the problems? Uh, we may not 263 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: have all the problems that that you might immediately think of, 264 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: or that the news wants you to think about. What 265 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: are we talking about? Will tell you, after a word 266 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: from our sponsor, the problem with quote unquote over population, 267 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: or as you said that the problems with quote unquote 268 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: over population. Well, first off, ideally, as long as someone 269 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: or some household can take care of the kids they have, 270 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: provide them with decent education, water, clothing, shelter, affection, then 271 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: they should be able to have as many kids as 272 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: they want, you know, and and create a bustling, successful family. 273 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: That's that's the dream for a lot of people. But 274 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: when we talk about the idea of overpopulation, the way 275 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 1: that we typically hear this depicted is something like, uh, 276 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: there are too many people living now. That makes the 277 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: human species ripe for a disaster. It exacerbates climate change, 278 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: which is already way off the rails. It uses up 279 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: resources in a way that makes them unsustainable, and that 280 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: it accelerates inequality. We've just named we've just ticked off 281 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: like the greatest hits of the overpopulation argument. But that 282 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: argument sometimes leaves leaves some important things out, like in 283 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: the in the world of academia, and you're gonna be 284 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: hard pressed to find a full agreement on the problem 285 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: of overpopulation. For some people over population in terms like 286 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: population explosion are just diversionary and they're used to distract 287 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: from the real problem, which is inequality. Because if you 288 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: look at if you look at the estimated amount of 289 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: money of value right throughout the world and then you say, well, 290 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: what about divide it all equally? First you'll be you'll 291 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: be called a crazed you know, communists through whichever is 292 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: in use today. But if you if you looked at 293 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 1: it and you just said, okay, treat it like a 294 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: math problem, what would everybody get if you sliced it 295 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: up seven point eight whatever billion ways. Well, there are 296 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: folks argue that you would find people's basic needs met. 297 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: The thing is, for many powerful people that would dramatically 298 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: reduce their own quality of life, so it becomes a nonstarter. 299 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,719 Speaker 1: Plus back to your earlier point about organization, Matt, that's crazy. 300 00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 1: How would you even do that? People are way too 301 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: corrupt to ever do that, you know what I mean. 302 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: We're talking about a species that will intentionally betray people, 303 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: even people that are their family or people they call 304 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: their friends, for like a pittance, like like a cassette tape. 305 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: I think I don't think I do for a cassette tape. 306 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: Though I'm not of the mind to do that. But 307 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 1: you know, that's a lot of people won't know which 308 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: way they go in that situation until they find themselves 309 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: in that situation and they feel like the incentive is 310 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: enough fuel to power their later rationalizations for the evil 311 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: stuff they do. Anyway, that's like they're saying that that 312 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: it's it's a real problem, but it's being used to 313 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: distract from another bigger problem, which is inequality. So reducing 314 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: the population is in that frame. Uh, that is a 315 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: way to address inequality, But does it mean it's the 316 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: only away theoretically no. So for other people, population control 317 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: through lowering the birth rate is absolutely legit. It's more 318 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: than legit. It's the only solution to a ticking time 319 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: bomb of economic, ecological, and social disaster. Yeah, let's think 320 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: about that for a minute. Imagine you are in charge 321 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: and you, for whatever reason, believe that there is a 322 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: population explosion problem where where in the area that you 323 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: control or at least have partial control. How do you 324 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: go about reducing that population actively? Do you kill off 325 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: a bunch of people? Probably not, no matter where you are, 326 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 1: even you know, the most heinous autocrat likely isn't going 327 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: to kill his or her own people in that way 328 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: because it could lead to disaster for their for their 329 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: own power. The way you essentially do it is you 330 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 1: convey the people over which you hold somewhat control, uh, 331 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: that this is a problem as much as you think 332 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 1: it is a problem, and get them to find a 333 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 1: way to participate in solving the problem. It's a weird concept. Yeah, 334 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: it goes It goes back pretty pretty far. You know, 335 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: it goes back to the ideas of Thomas Malthus enthusianism 336 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: from the eighteen hundreds. Uh. This, this guy back in 337 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds already said, look, there are too many 338 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: people in the world. The the fact that there are 339 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: too many people is the reason things are going wrong. 340 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 1: That's the number one reason hunger, starvation, disease, war, It's 341 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 1: all because we have too many people on the boat. 342 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: And so he argued that at some point the population 343 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: of the world is going to surpass the ability of 344 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: the world to produce enough food for everyone, and that 345 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,239 Speaker 1: there will be massive starvation unless you do something. And 346 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: then the the argument is that based on where someone 347 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: is and given social or global hierarchy, their decision about 348 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: who should have to pay the ultimate price of reducing 349 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: the population, Who should have to take the hit or 350 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: jump off the boat. That's gonna depend on what they 351 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: think benefits them the most. You don't see very many 352 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: members of Congress, or you don't see very many world 353 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: leaders saying, hey, I'm not gonna have children. They're saying, hey, 354 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: you know what I'm gonna you know, take I'm gonna 355 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: take the hit. Me and all my buddies are getting sterilized. 356 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: That's what we're doing instead of going bowling. It's it's 357 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 1: always like, it's always like the greater good is awesome, 358 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: and I will fight for it as long as someone 359 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: else pays the price. Well, let's talk about the greater 360 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: good because in this case, in the best scenario scenario, 361 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: if you're nasty, it's you're you're attempting to do the 362 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: greatest good. But what does that mean is the greatest 363 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: Is it the greatest good in terms of the economic 364 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 1: future of your country? Is I mean, even if you're 365 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: like putting, even if you are taking the hit, as 366 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: the leader or the group of leaders or whatever that 367 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: are at the golf course, decign to get sterilized too. 368 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: You you're still going to probably make decisions or lean 369 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 1: towards alienating those who are suffering at the depths of 370 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 1: the inequality pool. They're back. Well. Yeah, and and if 371 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: you're if you are thinking in those like utilitarian terms, 372 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: the people who can offer things for whatever government or 373 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 1: private enterprise, those are going those people are going to 374 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: be prioritized, I believe. Yeah. Unfortunately, even if that's not 375 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: what the law or the policy says on paper, that 376 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 1: will tend to be how it works out in practice. 377 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: Because let me tell you're referring to our earlier episodes. 378 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: If if something like this was proposed in the United States, 379 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: lobbyists would love it. It's a field day. Let's just 380 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: start carving out the exceptions, you know what I mean, 381 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: pay to play baby. But this is a real problem, 382 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 1: and this applies to many other things. But in the 383 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: case of population control, we're talking about something very very personal. Right. 384 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: This is not like a law saying that everybody, every 385 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: individual has to recycle while no global corporation has to. 386 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 1: It's not that kind of inequality. This is telling people 387 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: they cannot have children by hook or by crook. Uh. 388 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: But one thing that everyone does seem to agree on 389 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: is this, and I'm thankful that everyone can agree on this. 390 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: The average person or household, not just in India, but 391 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: in the world, does a RvEs a better present and 392 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: a brighter future. You know, if you if whether or 393 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: not you have kids, whether or not you plan to 394 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: have kids. I hope it's not a hot take to 395 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: say that people should have food security, people should have 396 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 1: access to education and employment opportunities, and you know what 397 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: they want to they should have the prospect of raising 398 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: a family of their own one day. You know, even 399 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: if you're not into one of those things for some reason, 400 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 1: then that shouldn't stop you from supporting other people's pursuit 401 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: of those goals. And now we we have to ask ourselves, 402 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: what's the solution, you see, fellow conspiracy realist, today's episode 403 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: is not a story about the future of India's population, 404 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: not really. Instead, it is a story about a strange, 405 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: brutal solution applied by the Indian government and applied by 406 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: Western foundations, endorsed by the United Nations, and implemented then 407 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: with the help of India's government. What did they do? 408 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: Like Ashley said, they conspired to sterilize men by the millions, 409 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: and they very much succeeded. Here's where it gets crazy. Hey, 410 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 1: you wonder why there's so much skepticism and worry about 411 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: things like the World Bank or the International Monetary Fund. Well, 412 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: here's a great example for you as we dive into this. Yeah, 413 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: here it is, um. I guess we should give an example, 414 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: maybe something that we can all imagine as we're thinking 415 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: about this, ben Um, we can apply it to us. 416 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: So as we're all listening, imagine that you are going 417 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: through something really rough. Let's say, uh, somebody just ruptured 418 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: a gas line at your house. Now I'm just playing, 419 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: that's just what happened to me. Yeah, that's the true 420 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,239 Speaker 1: story of folks I started off there, But thank you 421 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 1: for being her path? Are all right? Or let's say 422 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: let's say that's just like minor inconvenience, where we're right, 423 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: everybody's okay, the dogs are fine, and the family's fine. 424 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: But but let's say, okay, well what if we say 425 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: this um in our case to be self interested here, 426 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: how about we say we woke up one day and 427 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: podcasting was done, totally done. That's it. We have to 428 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: go back to our earlier skill sets, right right, right, Okay, 429 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: And so this is hopefully just hypotheticals. Things are tough, 430 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: you know, or maybe you're Industry goes to put for 431 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: reasons beyond your control, and one bad thing follows on 432 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: the heels of another. You have expensive medical concerns, you 433 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: have to provide for family members who likewise have fallen 434 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: on tough times. You are unable to get a job, 435 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: your bills add up, and you find yourself living out 436 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: of your car, living in a friend's house, living in assistance. 437 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: Maybe things get even worse, and you're sleeping rough under 438 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: the stars wherever you can find it's dry. You're working 439 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: odd jobs day by day so that you can scrape 440 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: by to live to the next sunrise. And then you know, 441 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: now that you find yourself on the bottom of insert 442 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: social strata here, you become a very easy target for 443 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: other people, bad actors, and you're much more likely to 444 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: get certain laws enforced upon you because you obviously cannot 445 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: do much to defend yourself. So let's see you get 446 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: jammed up by the local police. And they say, all right, 447 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,959 Speaker 1: all right, Matt ben fellow conspiracy realist, you're also in 448 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: this with us. We've been sleeping under a bridge. Uh, 449 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: you guys are loitering. You people are loitering. We're gonna 450 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: throw you in jail. We're gonna give you a fine, 451 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: and we all know that you cannot afford to pay it, 452 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: which will mean that your life gets even work and 453 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: you may be in jail longer, depending on which state 454 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: this story occurs in. And then we're all panicked. What 455 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: are we gonna do? Eventually the cops say, well, you 456 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: know there's one thing you could do. You can put 457 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,239 Speaker 1: this on, come on back over here, and we're going 458 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: to give you a quick sterilization and then you can 459 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: just leave. Cool. We can go back under the bridge 460 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: if you want. Yeah, sure, just just go under the 461 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: knife real quick. We'll be done. Then you just go 462 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: on with your day. And that's the left few minutes. Yea, 463 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: And our success rate is okay. We'll even give you 464 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: this pin and it'll let us know that you've already 465 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: done this, so we won't pick you up the next 466 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: time for loitering. We'll give you a couple of pills 467 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: for the pain, maybe some cash, you know, And and 468 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: the odds are pretty good of you not dyeing. You're like, 469 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: what is pretty good? Well, they're not great, but they're 470 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: there again, besides the pen thing that I was somewhat 471 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: joking about, would it surprise you to know that this 472 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: actually happened. This happened in India in in the nineteen seventies, 473 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five. It's that's what it's known as the emergency, 474 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: I think is how it's referred to. You been, yes, 475 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy five emergency. And this is part of 476 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: the reason, folks, that Matt was emphasizing India's role as 477 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: the largest democracy, because for twenty one months from nineteen 478 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: seventy five to nineteen seventy seven, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi 479 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: had a state of emergency declared across the entirety of 480 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: the country. This was due to the rationalization. The rationale, 481 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: I should say, was prevailing internal disturbance. This order gave 482 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: the Prime Minister to the ability to cancel elections, the 483 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: suspension of old civil liberty, ease, and the dangerous authority 484 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: to allow rule by decree, which means in this otherwise 485 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: democratic country, for twenty one months, they implemented a style 486 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: of governance where a single person or group could say 487 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: this is the law, and then that was the law. 488 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: And so during the n emergency. The one of the 489 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: Prime Minister's children, a guy named Sanjay Gandhi, began a 490 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: campaign of mass sterilization population control that was definitely targeting 491 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: the poor. There would be people. You will find countless 492 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: stories of people who were maybe itinerant workers, maybe sleeping 493 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: in fields, maybe trying to catch a train somewhere, getting 494 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: jammed up by the cops and having the having it 495 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: something distressing ly similar to that. To that story, Matt 496 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: and I just told that that was happening to people, 497 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: and it was not happening in a vacuum. Because the 498 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: Indian government had massive international support from this. Maybe not 499 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: in terms of like number of other other people in 500 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: the world supporting this idea, but in terms of dollars 501 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: and infrastructure and expertise. They were working with some of 502 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: the most well off international organizations in the world. Yeah, 503 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: they were given millions and millions of dollars by the 504 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: World Bank and several other institutions, including the U N 505 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: Population Fund, I believe is what it was called. That 506 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: may be wrong, Nope, that's it um. Even even organizations 507 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: like the Ford Foundation. Yeah, and there are others that 508 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: you can read about who gave money towards this goal. 509 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: And while all of this money is coming in, there's 510 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: a massive effect because it is a huge effort. Um. 511 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: In just one year, six point two million Indian men 512 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:09,959 Speaker 1: were sterilized one year, one year. Yeah, um, six point 513 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 1: two million. The only way that I have a mental 514 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 1: framing for something like that is through the United States 515 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen vaccination program. Just imagining the number of people 516 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: moving in and out of a huge number of physical 517 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: locations where vaccinations were being given across the United States. 518 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: That's the only way I can factor in that number 519 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: of people going in and out and having a procedure. 520 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: I've got one that might help. It's a it's a 521 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: twisted version of our old YouTube game we used to play, 522 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: you remember the one. I'm sure so I pulled up 523 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: the population of countries. Yes, the total populations of countries 524 00:34:54,840 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: that are smaller than this number six point two million. Uh. 525 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: Those countries include places like Denmark, Finland, Norway, Oman, Costa Rica, Ireland. 526 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: So like the more than the entire population of each 527 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: of these countries got sterilized one year. Uh. And then 528 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: the list goes on. You know that's also um higher 529 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: than the population. Let's let's see, let's do a good one. 530 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,800 Speaker 1: That's higher than the population of a couple of different 531 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: countries combined. It's higher than the population of Latvia and 532 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: Bahrain together. It's high like they sterile. What we're saying is, 533 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: if you look at it through that lens, in one year, 534 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: they sterilize a country's worth of dudes. Yes, and all 535 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: of those people, each one pulled from the reproductive pool, 536 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: all of their you know, their genes don't get passed 537 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,720 Speaker 1: on anymore. And in some cases they were rewarded for 538 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: deciding to take part or being forced to take part 539 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: um again. Sometimes people were physically forced to go in 540 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: and become sterilized in this program in nine So, as 541 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:16,439 Speaker 1: Ashley pointed out, many people were promised things and many 542 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: people did did go along with it. You can you 543 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: can read about the public outreach that says things like 544 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: the fewer kids who have, the more food there is 545 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: to go around, you know, things like that motivational stuff. 546 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: But also Ashley is correct in that for many people, 547 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: and we're looking more at this forced sterilization of men 548 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:43,280 Speaker 1: at this time, but many people, including including women, didn't 549 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: actually get the stuff that they were promised after they 550 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,959 Speaker 1: consented to these operations, but a lot of people also 551 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: never got the chance to consent because they were forced. 552 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,399 Speaker 1: In one case, we found on November twenty nine six 553 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,720 Speaker 1: in a rural village aimed Utawar, which is about fifty 554 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: miles eighty clicks south of New Delhi. I just put 555 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 1: clicks in their max I know you like that phrase 556 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 1: I love you. So it's uh So, there's this rural village, 557 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: smaller place, and the authorities, those folks that we're talking about, 558 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: who have the volunteers who have like a quota to 559 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: get people sterilized. They have been coming in and trying 560 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: to incentivize people, talking about patriotism, this, that and the third. 561 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: But then what they ultimately do when when the villagers 562 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: aren't going along with it, is they call in the cavalry. 563 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,760 Speaker 1: Literally mounted policemen, round up every man over the age 564 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: of fifteen, forces them to assemble at a local school, 565 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: hearts them by bus off to a government hospital, and 566 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: then nearly two d and fifty men were forced into vextsectomys. 567 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: Some of the those men had never had children, and 568 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 1: from that point on they never would. Yeah. So in 569 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: this specific example, that's horrifying, right, that's right out of 570 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: some some kind of dystopian novel, that kind of thing 571 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: happening to just citizens. But one thing that makes it 572 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: even worse is the fact that there was such a 573 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: rush to sterilize so many people at the time. The procedures, 574 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,839 Speaker 1: like some of the people not all, but some of 575 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: the people giving these procedures performing them, some of the 576 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: techniques that they were not safe, and many people died. 577 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:43,839 Speaker 1: At least according to journalist Mara hif Stendahl Um, there 578 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,879 Speaker 1: were at least two thousand men, two thousand men that 579 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: died because of medical errors during these processes. There these sterilizations, 580 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: and here's the thing that's just during the emergency in 581 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: the nineteen mid nineteen seventies. There have been sterilization practices 582 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: before that in India. And this wasn't a new thing 583 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 1: where people were dying due to these practices. Yeah, this 584 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 1: was not new. Through multiple propaganda programs, awareness campaigns, and more, 585 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 1: the government and the hidden hand of those Western foundations 586 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: and institutions sought to cajole people into the sectomes or 587 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: into tubligation due to longstanding misconceptions about these uh these surgeries, 588 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: as well as very valid concerns, you know what I mean, 589 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 1: especially if if you if you lived nearby a village 590 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: where all the people, all the dudes got rounded up 591 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,800 Speaker 1: in the sectomead, then you are not gonna be super 592 00:39:51,880 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 1: open to the friendly, uh warm, fuzzy time propaganda campaigns. Also, 593 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 1: more than one million men were sterilized in India nineteen 594 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 1: seventy one, and over three million were sterilized just two 595 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: years later in nine seventy three. We've mentioned a hidden 596 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: hand pretty often this episode, and we've we've talked a 597 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: little bit about the World Bank, and we've talked a 598 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: little bit about some of the some of the places 599 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: getting behind this in ways that you might not expect. 600 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: Most people associate Forward with like model t s anti Semitism. 601 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: And you know, uh, well, I can't say too much 602 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:38,839 Speaker 1: because I drive a forward right right right, I I 603 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: drive before and I'm aware of the acronym we can 604 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: save the time found on road debt. I get it. 605 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: But but how did they get involved? Why? Why? This 606 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: is maybe one of the most important parts of this conspiracy. 607 00:40:51,680 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: Will tell you what we mean afterword from our sponsor. Okay, 608 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 1: so a lot of the fear of overpopulation can be 609 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: traced back to Malthusian theory, but a lot of the 610 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 1: fear in the modern era can be traced back to 611 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,839 Speaker 1: a single book written in nineteen by a biologist from 612 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: Stanford named Paul Erlick. He wrote a book called The 613 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: Population Bomb, very very dystopian, very pessimistic, because he thought 614 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: that he was talking about an existential crisis. I think 615 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: it's important to note he wasn't just out with some 616 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 1: ulterior motive. He really did believe this, and he made 617 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: these predictions about what was going to happen if population 618 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:49,399 Speaker 1: growth was not uh crippled as soon as possible. He said, 619 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: India is doomed. You just have to deal with that. 620 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 1: He said sixty five million Americans are going to starve 621 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: to death, and that by his one of his more 622 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 1: specific predictions, that by the year two thousand, England will 623 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: not exist. So that should you should hopefully give a 624 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 1: little inspiring chuckle to our friends across the pond. Erlick 625 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: was obviously incorrect, But because the book came out in 626 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 1: just a few years before a lot of these policies 627 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 1: get Western support, we can tell you his beliefs. The 628 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:30,280 Speaker 1: things he espoused in The Population Bomb got super popular, 629 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,759 Speaker 1: especially with the privileged. The hires up at institutions like 630 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: the World Bank and foundations like Ford and Rockefeller, and 631 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: so they started putting their money and their expertise where 632 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 1: their eyes were. They started try like taking this book 633 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: is inspiration and pushing toward making real world steps that 634 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 1: they thought were the perfect steps to eliminate the threat 635 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: of overpopulation. And yeah, of course there is there is 636 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: such thing as overpopulation. It's happening. But there are other methods, 637 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,279 Speaker 1: other ways to stem the tide, I think, is what 638 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,840 Speaker 1: we're saying here. Uh did you you saw that the 639 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,120 Speaker 1: There's a great Fox article that's based on a really 640 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,759 Speaker 1: great podcast called Future Perfect if you want to dive 641 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 1: in for more information about this and full disclosure, they 642 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,200 Speaker 1: are funded in part by some of those same foundations 643 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:33,000 Speaker 1: they explore, and in one of their episodes, they joined 644 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 1: with some historians to study the story of a guy 645 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,719 Speaker 1: named Douglas Innsminger, an official at the Ford Foundation. He 646 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 1: created infrastructure for these large scale mass sterilization programs in India. 647 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,360 Speaker 1: I mean, if one to wax poetic about it, that 648 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,600 Speaker 1: the way I thought of it is under a sheep's 649 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:57,719 Speaker 1: coat of philanthropy. These powerful organizations went full wolf and 650 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,319 Speaker 1: intervened in a sovereign nation. Yeah, yeah, they did. They 651 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:07,359 Speaker 1: went in geo style. Baby. Um, it's not an uncommon thing. 652 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: It's also not surprising that these are the groups that 653 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:17,759 Speaker 1: were interested in implementing population control. Again, not saying that 654 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,320 Speaker 1: you know, the World Bank and you know whatever Rockefell 655 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 1: Air Foundation or Ford Foundation or whatever are inherently evil. 656 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: They just are operating from a place of privilege, I 657 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: would say, from a from an upper echelon. And you 658 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: can imagine how, I don't know why to make them 659 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: so interested in the eugenics of it or the culling 660 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 1: of it. I don't know, I don't know why, but 661 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,239 Speaker 1: you can definitely see why they They almost I can't 662 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: put these thoughts in their head, but you're almost aware 663 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 1: that somebody sitting around the table where this is being discussed, right, 664 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,120 Speaker 1: there's like a a discussion of this book by Erlick. 665 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,360 Speaker 1: It's not happening. You can imagine that there's at least 666 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: three courses. I'm sorry, that's not that's my opinion and 667 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,520 Speaker 1: that's not really valid, but that's what I see in 668 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:14,480 Speaker 1: my head. Yeah. Yeah, the idea that uh, the idea 669 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,919 Speaker 1: that these people, perhaps with the best of intentions, would 670 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 1: have been would have been so far removed from poverty, 671 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:28,799 Speaker 1: right that they would not have understood, uh, the consequences 672 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,600 Speaker 1: of this approach or the alternatives to it, or maybe 673 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: they truly felt this was very much a crisis situation 674 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 1: and these inhuman measures where the best recourse, whatever the 675 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,239 Speaker 1: case may be. Like you said, man, it's tough to 676 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,840 Speaker 1: know their internal motivations, Uh, whatever the case may be. 677 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:56,760 Speaker 1: As India's democracy was suspended, the leadership of the country 678 00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,880 Speaker 1: use the powers and tools of these groups to danger 679 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,799 Speaker 1: since sinister ends and it did result in the death 680 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,720 Speaker 1: of people. By the way, you know, I've been calling 681 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 1: this a conspiracy, and it kind of is a conspiracy 682 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,200 Speaker 1: because maybe the average person India at the time, in 683 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,920 Speaker 1: a rural community, was not aware that this forced vasectomy 684 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,760 Speaker 1: was brought to them by the World Bank, were brought 685 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:26,279 Speaker 1: to them by Rockefeller and Ford. But Western institutions and 686 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,400 Speaker 1: these leaders praised the practice. They loved it. They were 687 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,719 Speaker 1: there on record saying this is great and we're making progress. 688 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: In fact that the push to do this was so 689 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:43,399 Speaker 1: extreme that the President of the United States held kind 690 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:49,239 Speaker 1: of held aid for ransom in n Then President Lyndon B. 691 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,000 Speaker 1: Johnson said, look, we're not going to provide any food aid, 692 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,840 Speaker 1: no more food aid to India, even though you're undergoing 693 00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,080 Speaker 1: of you know, the threat of a famine right now, 694 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:03,960 Speaker 1: until you put in steps to incentivize sterilization. Yeah. So 695 00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:09,759 Speaker 1: not like family planning, like just birth control, sterilization exactly. 696 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,160 Speaker 1: And you'll notice there that we discussed how the book 697 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:15,319 Speaker 1: came out in sixty The President Johnson did that in 698 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,839 Speaker 1: sixty five because population control programs in India had been 699 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 1: going on since at least nineteen fifty one, when there 700 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,600 Speaker 1: were long term plans, like five year plans that were 701 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,680 Speaker 1: being put in place. And there's an article on Asian 702 00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 1: Studies dot org that you can read all about some 703 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:34,480 Speaker 1: of these plans and see how much money was being 704 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,920 Speaker 1: put in, what organizations were involved. It's titled India, the 705 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,880 Speaker 1: Emergency and the Politics of Mass Sterilization. Highly recommend you 706 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,520 Speaker 1: check that out because it it has been going on 707 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:47,960 Speaker 1: for a long time and literally the President of the 708 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:52,719 Speaker 1: United States, as Ben said, held it held help over 709 00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,239 Speaker 1: their heads until that terrible thing started happening on a 710 00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:02,399 Speaker 1: large scale, right and tying a to certain preconditions is 711 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:07,440 Speaker 1: a common thing in the world of geopolitics. Right, there's 712 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,000 Speaker 1: no such thing as a free lunch. As the economists 713 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,880 Speaker 1: like to say in what's known as the dismal science, 714 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:19,400 Speaker 1: which is the street name of economy economics. Uh, this 715 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:24,120 Speaker 1: this has real impact. These this has real consequences. So 716 00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 1: the steps taken by the Indian government promoting I D 717 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,759 Speaker 1: S sterilizations can be seen as a response to the 718 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 1: demands of these powerful organizations, the World Bank, International Planned 719 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:42,279 Speaker 1: Parenthood Federation, UN Fund for Population Activities. Even us A 720 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,520 Speaker 1: A I D got involved. So what we're the United 721 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:52,880 Speaker 1: States Agency for International Development. Uh, that was interesting discretion, 722 00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:58,160 Speaker 1: that was way off. But but yes, yeah, these they 723 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 1: were involved with this. They were directlee bankrolling this. And 724 00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:07,799 Speaker 1: instead of helping people with family planning, these programs immediately 725 00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:14,960 Speaker 1: forced these lifelong, lasting, permanent contraceptive methods on a very 726 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:19,000 Speaker 1: reluctant population. And that's this leads us to where India 727 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,960 Speaker 1: is today and maybe tomorrow because unfortunately, you know, like 728 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:28,279 Speaker 1: you said, Matt, this story began before the seventy five 729 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:32,600 Speaker 1: emergency and it continued after the nineteen seventies. According to 730 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:37,160 Speaker 1: the u N, India alone was responsible for thirty seven 731 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,080 Speaker 1: percent of the world's female sterilizations in two thousand eleven. 732 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 1: And and we also know many many women have died 733 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,319 Speaker 1: as a direct result of those sterilizations, which would need 734 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,480 Speaker 1: to be its own episode at this point. And although 735 00:49:53,960 --> 00:50:00,520 Speaker 1: sterilization has produced results, fertility rates dropped from in the 736 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,879 Speaker 1: nine nineties was three point four and dropped to two 737 00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:08,320 Speaker 1: point two in it's also of course seeing a massive 738 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,920 Speaker 1: amount of controversy. And that's that's where we get to 739 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:17,080 Speaker 1: this point. So incentivizing people to have fewer children to 740 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:21,600 Speaker 1: a to a threshold, it makes sense. But blackmailing a 741 00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:27,040 Speaker 1: country to make them enact these programs seems pretty dirty, 742 00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:33,320 Speaker 1: and forcing people to do this seems criminal, and and 743 00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,520 Speaker 1: it certainly seems as for our earlier discussion, like India's 744 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,440 Speaker 1: on its way to continue this process, just in a 745 00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:45,319 Speaker 1: a different way. Right. I think that's what some of 746 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:49,200 Speaker 1: the planned stuff for for the few states that are 747 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:53,680 Speaker 1: putting forward these new incentives to control the population, it's 748 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,200 Speaker 1: just looks a little different. Uh, it may be a 749 00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,080 Speaker 1: little less harsh, but in the end, it's still deciding 750 00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:04,319 Speaker 1: who can and cann't have a family to a certain extent, right, right, 751 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,440 Speaker 1: And who should be able to say that, you know, 752 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:11,560 Speaker 1: I believe that in the case of let's say someone 753 00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:17,360 Speaker 1: commits a heinous crime, right, someone has committed someone's a 754 00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,320 Speaker 1: serial killer, just an extreme example, and they get caught, 755 00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:22,120 Speaker 1: they go to jail for the rest of their life, 756 00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,680 Speaker 1: where they get the death penalty, what have you. That 757 00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:29,520 Speaker 1: person has excluded themselves from society. That's the kind of 758 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,880 Speaker 1: person who doesn't deserve to have the agency to decide 759 00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,640 Speaker 1: whether or not they want to have a family after 760 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,840 Speaker 1: they've been incarcerated for this stuff. And that's that's just 761 00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:40,799 Speaker 1: my opinion of making an example off the top of 762 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,880 Speaker 1: my head. But I'm only bringing that example up to 763 00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:48,440 Speaker 1: argue that for the vast majority of the human population, 764 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:54,680 Speaker 1: they should have the fundamental freedom the agency to make 765 00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,799 Speaker 1: to make those sorts of choices for themselves. We're we're 766 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:03,440 Speaker 1: not we're not time va sectomy, right. I know many 767 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,759 Speaker 1: people who have been who have chosen to be sterilized 768 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,960 Speaker 1: for one reason or another, you know, And and they 769 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:13,759 Speaker 1: live happy, fulfilling lives, uh and a big and are 770 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,719 Speaker 1: happy with their decision. And I can only assume that 771 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:18,799 Speaker 1: a big part of why they are happy with that 772 00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:24,839 Speaker 1: decision is because it was their decision, not someone else's. Yep, 773 00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:32,560 Speaker 1: well this was a downer? Was it down? Or? You 774 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,400 Speaker 1: know we've got a pepper and some more shows about goblins, 775 00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,880 Speaker 1: h for sure. Yeah, let's just do that. Let's do 776 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:44,400 Speaker 1: it on different like mythology from D and D every 777 00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:46,759 Speaker 1: week or so every couple of weeks. Let's do that. 778 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:48,600 Speaker 1: We can have Robert and Joe from stuff to blow 779 00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,440 Speaker 1: your mind on. Uh, talk a little bit about that. 780 00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,359 Speaker 1: I actually I played Dungeons and Dragons with Joe as well, 781 00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:58,680 Speaker 1: you know that. Yeah, yeah, I played dn D in 782 00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,360 Speaker 1: my head, like I like to think about the concept 783 00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,640 Speaker 1: of playing dn D, but I just never do it. Okay. 784 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,160 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what embarrassing things, so this isn't a 785 00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,760 Speaker 1: complete down and we'll give you something to laugh at, folks. 786 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,239 Speaker 1: And that's something you can laugh at as me. Uh. 787 00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:18,640 Speaker 1: And when I was younger, I didn't get on with 788 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:23,200 Speaker 1: most people, and I was very much recluse. Uh. And 789 00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:27,400 Speaker 1: I bought dn D books and I read the crap 790 00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,799 Speaker 1: out of them, and I played D and D campaigns 791 00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:34,960 Speaker 1: with myself as the d M and as three different characters. 792 00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,480 Speaker 1: And it's kind of cool though you learned all the different, 793 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,960 Speaker 1: you know, skills that you can have with the different characters. 794 00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,320 Speaker 1: I bet you were you a Was there a sorcerer 795 00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:53,719 Speaker 1: and or wizard, a cleric and a warrior or no, 796 00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:59,000 Speaker 1: a rogue? Multiple campaigns? Man, it got weird, It got weird. Uh. 797 00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,279 Speaker 1: You know, you know, need to try for real. I'm 798 00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:06,400 Speaker 1: not kidding. Delta Green. Have you heard of this? Delta Green? 799 00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,560 Speaker 1: Tell me more, tell me more. We're not really allowed 800 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,960 Speaker 1: to talk about it much, but we should try Delta Green. Seriously, 801 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,319 Speaker 1: it's the green. Is this like a lemon cello thing? 802 00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:25,600 Speaker 1: It's kind of like that but involved. Oh okay, yeah, 803 00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:30,080 Speaker 1: keep running into that guy. I gotta get different hobbies. Okay, yeah, no, 804 00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,080 Speaker 1: I'm down. I'm down. Okay, let's do it. Uh. And 805 00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,920 Speaker 1: in the meantime, we want to hear from you folks. 806 00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:41,520 Speaker 1: What what do you think? What is the just decision 807 00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:45,320 Speaker 1: for leaders of the world or leaders of a country 808 00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,839 Speaker 1: to make in this situation. Should they be allowed to 809 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:53,879 Speaker 1: conduct mass coercive sterilization programs or we didn't even talk 810 00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:57,120 Speaker 1: about some of the disincentives. Should people run the risk 811 00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:01,400 Speaker 1: of losing their job if they don't agree to participate 812 00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,719 Speaker 1: in sterilizations, or if they don't agree to have one themselves. 813 00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:08,719 Speaker 1: They get what what is what is the line? And 814 00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,680 Speaker 1: what is the way forward? How do we create a 815 00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:16,720 Speaker 1: better world for the people here now and the people 816 00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,280 Speaker 1: to come. And if there is a price to be paid, 817 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,399 Speaker 1: then who ultimately pays that price? We want to hear 818 00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:25,480 Speaker 1: from you. We want to hear your take or we 819 00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,080 Speaker 1: try to make it easy to find us online. You 820 00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:32,400 Speaker 1: can find us on YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook at Conspiracy Stuff. 821 00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:36,360 Speaker 1: On Instagram, we are Conspiracy Stuff Show. You can easily 822 00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,200 Speaker 1: find us on all of those places, and you can 823 00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,080 Speaker 1: give us a call. Our number is one eight three 824 00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:46,760 Speaker 1: three std w y t K. You'll hear a message 825 00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,280 Speaker 1: that lets you know you were in the right place, 826 00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:51,520 Speaker 1: and then you will have three minutes after a beat. 827 00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,319 Speaker 1: Those three minutes are your own. They belonged to you 828 00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:57,040 Speaker 1: to do with as you will. If you'd like to 829 00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,680 Speaker 1: help us out, give yourself a cool nickname, a moniker. 830 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:03,080 Speaker 1: It's always fun to have a different persona, isn't it. 831 00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:05,840 Speaker 1: Tell us what's on your mind. If there's something personal 832 00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,160 Speaker 1: that you would like to just keep to you know, uh, 833 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,040 Speaker 1: Matt Paul, I mean, and that's that's absolutely fine. Just 834 00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:13,600 Speaker 1: put it at the end of the message. The most 835 00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,719 Speaker 1: important part is to let us know if we can 836 00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:20,000 Speaker 1: use your name and or voice on the air. And 837 00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,960 Speaker 1: if you feel like it's gonna take me five calls 838 00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:26,400 Speaker 1: to get through the full extent of this story and 839 00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:28,480 Speaker 1: to tell them like everything I need to tell them 840 00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,919 Speaker 1: in all the supplemental info and everything else. Don't don't 841 00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,799 Speaker 1: worry about that. Don't ever feel like you have to 842 00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:38,000 Speaker 1: censor yourself. Instead, write it out in full, Throw as 843 00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:42,160 Speaker 1: many links and evidence as you want into an email, 844 00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:45,600 Speaker 1: an email that you should send to us immediately. 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