Speaker 1: The following episode was recorded before the WGA sag Aftra
Speaker 1: strikes of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: So I was reminiscing on my early career and the
Speaker 2: need for community, and at one point in my life
Speaker 2: I started feeling pulled to give back. I was kind
Speaker 2: of inspired by Paul Newman. I mean literally, like I
Speaker 2: opened the fridge and I looked at the spaghetti sauce
Speaker 2: and Paul was staring back at me, and you know,
Speaker 2: they had raised hundreds of millions of dollars for charity
Speaker 2: by doing something that you know, he really loved, which
Speaker 2: was food and tomato sauce and popcorn and all those things.
Speaker 2: And then I thought to myself, is there anything that
Speaker 2: I have that could be branded in this same kind
Speaker 2: of way to turn it into some kind of force
Speaker 2: for good? And that's how we came up with the
Speaker 2: six degrees thing. So my guest today, Penn Badgeley, brought
Speaker 2: this exact point up. Our celebrities actually being helpful when
Speaker 2: they leveraged their platforms for social impact. Is a tweet
Speaker 2: really enough? So lean it. I'm glad you're Hey, everybody,
Speaker 2: we've got Penn Badgely here with us today. Penn, thank
Speaker 2: you so much. Okay, so you were early to the podcast.
Speaker 2: Are you a compulsively early person? Like, No, I am.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: It's funny.
Speaker 4: It's funny that you say early. I mean I think
Speaker 4: I was maybe four to five minutes early. That's early, man,
Speaker 4: Which is You're right, it is early. No, I mean
Speaker 4: especially since I had a toddler. You know, I've got
Speaker 4: a I've got a I've got a two and three
Speaker 4: month old.
Speaker 2: So I would say.
Speaker 4: These days, being on time is a is a feat,
Speaker 4: is a herculean feet and I managed to do it
Speaker 4: when you know, when I really need to do it.
Speaker 4: But no, I'm not. I'm definitely not compulsively early. Although
Speaker 4: I loved the feeling of being early.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, well there goes my theory out the window.
Speaker 2: You know, we have a lot of connections, but one
Speaker 2: of the and this show is kind of about connections
Speaker 2: with one of the connections I thought about, which probably
Speaker 2: in my mind related to being early, was that we
Speaker 2: both correct me if I'm wrong. Started out on the soaps, Yeah,
Speaker 2: which one? Were you on The Young and the Restless?
Speaker 2: And you know I was so you young? Were restless
Speaker 2: or both? I was young. I was definitely young. I
Speaker 2: was not. I was so young that I couldn't be
Speaker 2: restless yet. I was. I was thirteen and fourteen years
Speaker 2: old when I was Oh were you really?
Speaker 3: Wow?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, okay, wow wow. Well I was on My
Speaker 2: first soap was called Search for Tomorrow, and then the
Speaker 2: second one that I was on for about a year
Speaker 2: was Guiding Light. And what I'd like to say about
Speaker 2: the soap because a lot of people will say to me,
Speaker 2: you know, it's just such a great training ground, and honestly,
Speaker 2: for acting, I think it's a terrible training ground. I
Speaker 2: agree with that. I mean in terms of, like, because
Speaker 2: all you're doing is trying to make these lousy expositional
Speaker 2: lines works. But what it is a good training ground
Speaker 2: for is uh professionalism because you have to be there absolutely,
Speaker 2: you know, when you're fourteen fifteen years old and you're
Speaker 2: on which was probably maybe the biggest one that I
Speaker 2: think maybe for a while. Yeah, so you're not going
Speaker 2: to show up like, you know, half an hour late,
Speaker 2: like they'll they'll they'll find they'll find another be another
Speaker 2: kid the next week, and nobody will care.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, profoundly, like you really
Speaker 4: do feel at that age, especially I just remember being
Speaker 4: really intimidated by it. It seemed like this giant apparatus,
Speaker 4: this giant machine and going to CBS Radford or was
Speaker 4: it the big the big CBS, the big giant CBS
Speaker 4: where like you know they do.
Speaker 2: The price is right.
Speaker 4: It just it just was like iconic and historical. And
Speaker 4: I was a short thirteen year old and everybody just
Speaker 4: seems so tall and mustachioed, and it just it was
Speaker 4: really nice. I mean, honestly it sticks out at my life. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't use it often, but there, I mean, there's
Speaker 4: there's the who I'm thinking of is I forget his
Speaker 4: real name, but he played this character named Victor on
Speaker 4: The Young and the Restless. Anybody who knows it would
Speaker 4: he just and he's got this iconic mustache, like probably
Speaker 4: for forty years just had that thing.
Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, that's cool man. Well listen, you know you've
Speaker 2: had such a you know, interesting career. So was that
Speaker 2: your very first gig and do you before that, do
Speaker 2: you remember the moment where you kind of said, I
Speaker 2: think this is what I want to do with my life.
Speaker 4: Yeah, very much so. I was probably nine when I
Speaker 4: realized this is what I want to do. Quote unquote,
Speaker 4: and that was in theater I was doing. I was
Speaker 4: doing community theater in Washington State where I lived at
Speaker 4: that that point. But so I lived, I lived very
Speaker 4: out in the Styx for a period.
Speaker 2: We'd moved from east What was the town? What town
Speaker 2: was it?
Speaker 4: I mean it was outside of Isa, so it did
Speaker 4: outside of Seattle. It wasn't that far into Seattle, which
Speaker 4: seemed like such a major, major, and I mean it
Speaker 4: is a city, it's a huge city, but but it
Speaker 4: Having never lived in a place like New York at
Speaker 4: that point, having never lived in a city, it was
Speaker 4: it was like, you know, this giant metropolis and I
Speaker 4: lived in in the mountains, skirting it. And because I
Speaker 4: didn't have a lot of social outlets, theater was that
Speaker 4: theater became that I and I and I loved the
Speaker 4: art of it.
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 4: I clearly was drawn to that. But then I think
Speaker 4: what I what what turned me on was was the
Speaker 4: the sort of communal aspect, you know, like makes the
Speaker 4: fact that the fact that you are encountering so many
Speaker 4: different kinds of people, you know, like there was this
Speaker 4: there's renowned playhouse there for young people called Seattle Children's
Speaker 4: Theater that I was a part of. And you know,
Speaker 4: I just remember like these I was probably eleven, and
Speaker 4: there were like these fourteen and sixteen year olds writing
Speaker 4: these like subversive progressive plays. I remember one was called
Speaker 4: The Barbie's Demise, and you know, it was like it
Speaker 4: was it was, it was inspiring, and so to me
Speaker 4: it just seemed like a way to enter into and
Speaker 4: participate in culture. Just it was art, you know. And
Speaker 4: then by the time I was in LA a few
Speaker 4: years later, and of course years then feel like lifetimes
Speaker 4: when you're that age, you know. I mean, I'm trying
Speaker 4: to think, like I started working in TV mostly I
Speaker 4: did some films, and you know, everything was just like, okay,
Speaker 4: I guess this is how it becomes a profession. But
Speaker 4: you know, I have to say, because I started so young,
Speaker 4: that delineation between like pure sort of creative joy and
Speaker 4: then like what it actually looks like as a job
Speaker 4: that's always been I don't know, it's just it's just
Speaker 4: it's just I feel like now in my in my
Speaker 4: late thirties, I'm starting to recover some of that joy
Speaker 4: and oh yeah, you know what I mean, One for
Speaker 4: one for the meal, one for the real. Yeah, that's
Speaker 4: that is that's that's something I think that they I mean,
Speaker 4: I think if you are an artist, which you clearly are,
Speaker 4: then you're gonna have.
Speaker 2: Some conflicts around it. You know what I mean, because
Speaker 2: exactly so much of what we do is is you know,
Speaker 2: the bottom line and trying to listen, trying to make
Speaker 2: a living. I think we have a kid, it gets
Speaker 2: it gets doubled down because all of a sudden, I
Speaker 2: know what you're feeling, was but all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: I was like, shit, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta
Speaker 2: step up. This is not just about me anymore, you know,
Speaker 2: I gotta I gotta provide. In a very I had
Speaker 2: a very strong kind of like fundamentally male sort of
Speaker 2: reaction to fatherhood, which was, Okay, here we go. I
Speaker 2: gotta provide, you know, I get built, build the you know,
Speaker 2: the brick house, and yeah. So I so I think
Speaker 2: that having those two things in combination are are tough.
Speaker 2: And you know, it's interesting you were saying about sets
Speaker 2: of community. I that was for me one of the
Speaker 2: two really important things when I first explored theater. Around
Speaker 2: the same age that that that you did, I was
Speaker 2: I was growing up in Philadelphia, I was finding any
Speaker 2: kind of you know, theater stuff that I could do.
Speaker 2: One was like I loved the closeness of these companies
Speaker 2: that I was. I wasn't in children's theater. I was
Speaker 2: like apprenticing at at you know, grown up theaters. That's cool,
Speaker 2: sweeping the stage and stuff like that. And they were
Speaker 2: all like, you know, loved each other or they were
Speaker 2: hated each other, but they had this kind of like
Speaker 2: bond that I felt like I really wanted to be
Speaker 2: part of that club. But the other thing for me
Speaker 2: was being a kid and just being a guy and
Speaker 2: trying to stay you know, kind of cool all the
Speaker 2: time and trying to be tough and you know, front
Speaker 2: with this kind of toughness. When I got into this
Speaker 2: this place where we were all like, ah, you know,
Speaker 2: let's let's pretend you're an art choke, you know, or
Speaker 2: cross and all this other other kind of stuff, I
Speaker 2: was like, Wow, this is I found a very very
Speaker 2: uh it was like it was a real release from
Speaker 2: me as a little boy. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that that really resonates for me. I mean,
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's awesome.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 4: I'm trying to think back, like because yeah, I did
Speaker 4: I did do plays with full adult casts and stuff too.
Speaker 4: And then of course you start getting into working in LA.
Speaker 4: At the age that I did, I was usually working
Speaker 4: alongside adults, and so I think it was this really
Speaker 4: interesting mix of like something that was genuinely freeing and
Speaker 4: then it was really laced with all that other toxic
Speaker 4: stuff you can't escape and culture anyway too, you know,
Speaker 4: and and the way. And so for me, because I
Speaker 4: moved to LA and was working at at at twelves,
Speaker 4: you know, and so then so by the time I
Speaker 4: got in young and the restles saw this, I feel
Speaker 4: like I have two minds of it, Like, man, it's
Speaker 4: incredible that I've lived a life being able to do
Speaker 4: what I love. That's that's true. And what can also
Speaker 4: be true at the same time, is it because I
Speaker 4: started doing that so young. I've never I can't really
Speaker 4: recall after ten years old it not feeling like it
Speaker 4: was somehow, Like you know, when you make something a job,
Speaker 4: there's then this pressure, you know, I mean years later
Speaker 4: when you have children. Of course that's a very real thing.
Speaker 4: But I, you know, needing to prove myself at such
Speaker 4: a young age, these sorts of things they you know,
Speaker 4: you start to realize that it's you. I'm not sure
Speaker 4: how to put words to it, but it's like it really,
Speaker 4: all I know is that becoming professional and professionally competent
Speaker 4: and actually financially independent at a very young age has
Speaker 4: it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a
Speaker 4: complex thing, you know, and it's sort of left its
Speaker 4: mark and I and I think, you know, I kind
Speaker 4: of wish that. I don't wish it, but I know
Speaker 4: that I would have a different relationship to it if
Speaker 4: I started a bit later and had you know, I
Speaker 4: have friends who work now who went to conservatory, they
Speaker 4: went to school for it, or they even sounds to
Speaker 4: me like apprenticing a a at a real playhouse at
Speaker 4: fourteen fifteen, that sounds like it has a purity to
Speaker 4: it that for me felt like at that age was
Speaker 4: already being kind of snatched away. And you know, you
Speaker 4: mentioned the thing about like it's not a great training
Speaker 4: for an actor to be in a soap opera because
Speaker 4: you are turning paragraphs of exposition at a rate it's
Speaker 4: so you know, you have to clip it out, you
Speaker 4: get two takes. Maybe I think, you know, it's like
Speaker 4: they are on time and to me that I was
Speaker 4: so young and impressionable that those were not great lessons
Speaker 4: to learn about what it means to be an actor.
Speaker 2: You know, well, it certainly hasn't hurt your acting, and
Speaker 2: it certainly hasn't hurt your your ability to you have
Speaker 2: a career and to find I mean speaking of you know,
Speaker 2: doing things that you find creatively satisfying. Uh what about
Speaker 2: the band and the music? Yeah, I mean are you?
Speaker 2: Are you? Is the band's how do you pronounce that name? Yeah?
Speaker 2: So it's just mother. We didn't X.
Speaker 4: We had to go the X because there are a
Speaker 4: couple of other mothers who gave us a cease and desist.
Speaker 2: Okay, all right. I like the spelling. I like this bell.
Speaker 2: It was a it was a hip thing to do
Speaker 2: at the time. Yeah, I was. I was just checking
Speaker 2: it out. It's it's it's it's really cool. I mean,
Speaker 2: I really like the the fact that, uh, it's a
Speaker 2: very specific sound, you know what I mean. The songs
Speaker 2: are all very varied, completely varied, but there's but the
Speaker 2: band has a recognizable sound. Do you guys play out?
Speaker 4: And and we did so, so we we we have
Speaker 4: been able to become friends again. But basically it dissolves
Speaker 4: like so many bands do because you don't realize what
Speaker 4: you're getting into is like a marriage with with three
Speaker 4: or four other guys. All of you have to have
Speaker 4: some kind of emotional maturity otherwise it's nice.
Speaker 2: Imagine being in the band with your brother. Right.
Speaker 4: Well, actually, yeah, that's that's pretty that's pretty huge.
Speaker 2: That's great act. But so, yeah, I know what you mean.
Speaker 2: It is like a marriage.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well I think you know, because like yours
Speaker 4: continues ours ours ours did not. We we we we
Speaker 4: made the one record and we made it in like
Speaker 4: a month, and we toured it for about three and
Speaker 4: a half years, and we got i'd say, really good.
Speaker 2: I can feel really.
Speaker 4: Good about what we did, what we learned, the way
Speaker 4: we could play a show, and the record that we made.
Speaker 4: It felt great. But that were you the writer or
Speaker 4: the writer? No, I mean so I was. I definitely
Speaker 4: wrote the lyrics and a lot of the melodies, and
Speaker 4: we you know, we all influenced each other's roles. But
Speaker 4: there was a there was a our sort of producer
Speaker 4: and beat maker who would lay the sort of foundation
Speaker 4: of the songs. And we had two multi instrumentalists who
Speaker 4: were like the guitar and bassist in keyboard players kind
Speaker 4: of when we were recording, and then I would come
Speaker 4: in and I would sing the top line, and you know,
Speaker 4: and we and we, but we all did it like
Speaker 4: in two different airbnbs in Chicago and l a uh
Speaker 4: over the course of a month, and so we just
Speaker 4: were all together, you know, just doing it constantly.
Speaker 2: And and so so that you you were there were
Speaker 2: some some live some live instruments, but a lot of
Speaker 2: beats and a lot of tracks.
Speaker 4: And I mean it sounds very it's gotten, its very
Speaker 4: trive it is, and I mean at the time, it
Speaker 4: was even before are In, It was like we were
Speaker 4: making sort of indie electronic R and B before that
Speaker 4: was even such a popular kind of like I think
Speaker 4: the Weekend has now made that sound extremely huge and
Speaker 4: and and a whole genre in and of itself. But
Speaker 4: at the time I feel like we were we were
Speaker 4: were wasn't as common, and we were trying to explore
Speaker 4: something new and because I mean, we made this record
Speaker 4: back and I was at the end I think we
Speaker 4: made it and basically the last month of twenty thirteen,
Speaker 4: and then we toured from like twenty fourteen to twenty seventeen.
Speaker 4: And yeah, so we made the whole thing was like
Speaker 4: analog since so everything was very organic in that sense,
Speaker 4: even though it's electronic. Yep, and uh and then and
Speaker 4: then the only thing that was completely manufactured where they
Speaker 4: where there was percussion where the beats.
Speaker 2: There's a whole whole group of people out there who
Speaker 2: just heard analogue synth and it just went right for
Speaker 2: those who know there is such a thing as an
Speaker 2: organic synth. I mean, it's hard to it's hard to
Speaker 2: put those two concepts together. You know, You've played so
Speaker 2: many different kinds of people. I've actually kind of shocked
Speaker 2: that we've never as far as I know, we've never worked.
Speaker 4: Together, or we've definitely never worked together. But I remember
Speaker 4: if we'd met, and I don't think we have.
Speaker 2: I don't think so, you know, I don't remember and uh,
Speaker 2: and so that's always kind of fascinating to me. I
Speaker 2: love this silly thing on you know, on IMDb, where
Speaker 2: you can hit the connections tab and we have like
Speaker 2: a whole you know, I'm sure tons tons and tons
Speaker 2: of connections, especially seeing as you did you in New
Speaker 2: York or or or you're still doing it.
Speaker 4: Are you still true. So we uh we just finished
Speaker 4: the fourth Southon in London.
Speaker 2: Okay, So first off, that's amazing. I mean, nobody It's
Speaker 2: like when you know, in the old days, if you
Speaker 2: got three seasons and they canceled you, Oh, that's a
Speaker 2: terrible tragy. Now it's like a smash three seasons three,
Speaker 2: not to mention of four seasons. So congratulations, that is
Speaker 2: that is very very cool. I mean, are you still
Speaker 2: enjoying it or did you have enjoy it? Yeah?
Speaker 4: So because the role is so exhausting kind of like
Speaker 4: spiritually and physically, I would say I do enjoy it,
Speaker 4: but I enjoy it kind of like you enjoy at
Speaker 4: some point, like a really difficult test to like running
Speaker 4: a marathon. You know, it's like you're like, it's it's
Speaker 4: a it's a it's a lot. I think typically trying
Speaker 4: to you know, you talk about soap operas and stuff.
Speaker 4: I mean, soap operas are an interesting template because they
Speaker 4: they are kind of like what all television structure comes
Speaker 4: from in a way, and that television has gotten so
Speaker 4: good is just is just sort of a testament to
Speaker 4: the evolution of the format. But it is rooted in
Speaker 4: what we think of as soap operas, whereas film is different.
Speaker 4: Film is a different act structure. Well the fangers right exactly,
Speaker 4: and then of course and the acts are actually have
Speaker 4: always been structured around commercial breaks. So you know, there's
Speaker 4: like there's this there's this aspect of television that I
Speaker 4: think even in the absolute best of television, you know
Speaker 4: you you still have something there of that original template
Speaker 4: and one of those things that I think is just
Speaker 4: still the difference between film and TV to me as
Speaker 4: an actor is huge, where you you have to do
Speaker 4: it for so much longer. We're in television, and you
Speaker 4: have to produce so much more in less time, but
Speaker 4: for longer periods of time. So so therefore the output
Speaker 4: is that much more of a of a race, of
Speaker 4: a sprint, but at marathon length. And so for that reason,
Speaker 4: a lot of shows are ensembles, and you actually don't
Speaker 4: usually have one person place so centrally in the middle
Speaker 4: like you do more in a film structure. So so
Speaker 4: my show is interesting because it's called you. It's about
Speaker 4: my character and the way he sees everybody else, and
Speaker 4: so it's so mental and it's so based in his
Speaker 4: his his narration and his perspective that you know, my
Speaker 4: participation is like essential to to like every aspect, even
Speaker 4: in the editing. Yes, they can't. They can't get going
Speaker 4: with the edit until they have my voiceover. So that's
Speaker 4: why I made You've got a tremendous amount of voice
Speaker 4: It's it's really it's so you know, and I don't
Speaker 4: say this in any way that I'm complaining. It's just
Speaker 4: I'm a witness to this process. It's like, wow, Okay,
Speaker 4: So this is what it means to make like a
Speaker 4: like a you know in the in the realm of
Speaker 4: something like a prestige television show, you know, with the
Speaker 4: spirit of like of of some cinema in it, but
Speaker 4: also with that really intense kind of soapy, frothy pace.
Speaker 4: And it's just and frankly, by the end of a
Speaker 4: six month stint, I am so beyond spent. Like it's
Speaker 4: it's a lot.
Speaker 2: I believe, hands down, having worked you know, pretty much
Speaker 2: across the board in terms of the formats, there is
Speaker 2: nothing harder than being the lead in an hour long
Speaker 2: television drama. That is the hardest cake that you can.
Speaker 4: I kind of agree with you, Yeah, I mean I
Speaker 4: didn't realize it as much until this show somehow. But
Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, this is because if.
Speaker 2: You're shooting a movie, it can be really really hard,
Speaker 2: but you know it's going to be over so exactly,
Speaker 2: you know. But but when you're in an hour long
Speaker 2: television drama, you're going out there. I didn't realize you
Speaker 2: were in London, but you're you know, you're going out
Speaker 2: there your work and you're working the hours along the
Speaker 2: demands alone. As you said, it's fast and furious. You
Speaker 2: are gun and trying to make it, trying to every day.
Speaker 2: Every day you just start.
Speaker 4: And I don't know how relatable this is for people listening,
Speaker 4: but yeah, everyone's.
Speaker 2: Like, wow, I'm so sad.
Speaker 4: I directed an episode this year, and I cool, I
Speaker 4: finally even more deeply internalized, like you know, the the
Speaker 4: trick with television that's so hard. It's like you basically
Speaker 4: start every day behind so that everybody's just trying to
Speaker 4: make that day that you had twelve hours to complete,
Speaker 4: and it's just it's such a behemoth enterprise and it's legit.
Speaker 4: Oh man, it's like and you know it's it is
Speaker 4: thrilling and exciting for short periods, but but you know,
Speaker 4: it exhausts everybody who's a part of it, all the
Speaker 4: crew members, everything.
Speaker 2: I was talking to an actress recently and this this,
Speaker 2: this is a question that I want to ask you
Speaker 2: about the playing a character like this, and playing a
Speaker 2: character like this over such a long period of time
Speaker 2: when there are things of a super dark nature that
Speaker 2: you have to you know, throw yourself into characters that
Speaker 2: do you know, inexcusable kind of things. What she was
Speaker 2: saying to me was that she was done with that
Speaker 2: because she found it to be too traumatic and personally
Speaker 2: too difficult to deal with. And I've heard, I've heard
Speaker 2: my wife is an actress, you know, express kind of
Speaker 2: similar things. For me, I kind of have the opposite reaction,
Speaker 2: because I find that it's a chance to sort of
Speaker 2: therapeutically exercise any kind of darkness that I yes, I
Speaker 2: guess it makes its way into my bones and sometimes
Speaker 2: it's hard to shake. But I but I find that
Speaker 2: this is like a it's you know, it's an exorcism
Speaker 2: of stuff from me. So I'm just wondering if you've
Speaker 2: if neither of those apply, or if you fall.
Speaker 4: In the Yeah, I really am somewhere in the middle,
Speaker 4: tending more towards what you just said, But my experience
Speaker 4: is a bit maybe of a different perspective.
Speaker 2: I think, like.
Speaker 4: I think, if you do it long enough, no matter
Speaker 4: how you view it, it's going to become exhausting, just
Speaker 4: on a practical level. So I can see Surety being like,
Speaker 4: you know what, I can't. I can't. I can't. Also,
Speaker 4: you know, one kind of this dovetails very I think
Speaker 4: about this a lot because of this specific role and
Speaker 4: how much how violent he is and how ultimately his
Speaker 4: violence lands on women. The two people you mentioned to
Speaker 4: see it that way are women, and interestingly, when they
Speaker 4: have to do something dark, it often involves violence on them,
Speaker 4: And when we have to do something dark, we're often
Speaker 4: the perpetrators of that violence.
Speaker 2: That's a really good point. And I'm not saying a
Speaker 2: good point.
Speaker 4: I'm not saying that that doesn't hurt us too.
Speaker 2: But it is different. It is different.
Speaker 4: It's it's very different, like it's being a sort of
Speaker 4: a passive rece receiver of a violence or being an
Speaker 4: and and I think I think for someone who's in
Speaker 4: that role, you know, you can't really you can't really
Speaker 4: tell your nervous system you're acting mm hmm. You can,
Speaker 4: in fact, in fact, if you're a good actor. A
Speaker 4: lot of times, the whole point is that you're blurring
Speaker 4: that line. And I think that's so, you know, I really,
Speaker 4: to me it becomes and that's where the reason that
Speaker 4: I don't see it as ultimately too traumatic is because
Speaker 4: of the way I I take it on as a
Speaker 4: as a as a profoundly kind of sacred and spiritual thing.
Speaker 4: You know, as an actor, you are the You're not
Speaker 4: the player, You're the instrument. You know, you're the You're
Speaker 4: the moment where the You're the place where the pen
Speaker 4: meets the page, or where the writer and director meet
Speaker 4: the audience. You know, you're you're the You're the receptor
Speaker 4: or sorry, you're the vessel. You're the channel through which
Speaker 4: everybody's seeing all this stuff. Everybody thinks actors have all
Speaker 4: this power and agency, and it seems that way because
Speaker 4: you know, you're what you see. But we're really there's
Speaker 4: nothing we have control over that we say, think, sorry,
Speaker 4: not think what we say, what we where we're standing,
Speaker 4: Everything about the whole thing we don't have any power
Speaker 4: over except for how we feel and think, you know,
Speaker 4: like how we respond to it all. And so to me,
Speaker 4: taking on such intense material, you know, Like I think,
Speaker 4: I continue, what inspires me is is that you have
Speaker 4: to ground it, even if sometimes the sort of structure
Speaker 4: that's on the page just because of what's got to
Speaker 4: happen can't be grounded totally in the reality of like
Speaker 4: trauma and violence and human behavior. In that way, I
Speaker 4: think as an actor, you naturally find that you find
Speaker 4: the reality of the human experience in this intense stuff.
Speaker 4: And so to me, if I couldn't keep learning truly
Speaker 4: and like reflecting on myself and I think hopefully maybe
Speaker 4: becoming a better person whenever that means or at least
Speaker 4: like I don't know, some more something you know, And
Speaker 4: that's to me what feeds me in it.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 4: The flip side is that I am tired of bringing
Speaker 4: to life a guy that ultimately serves as something as
Speaker 4: a warning rather than an invitation. You don't want to
Speaker 4: be this guy, and you know you And so to me,
Speaker 4: I think what I'm tired of is like exploring the
Speaker 4: lower nature of humanity. I'm interested in because we get
Speaker 4: a lot of that now. You know, fifty sixty seventy
Speaker 4: eight years ago, it wasn't as common to do that,
Speaker 4: and you know, so you saw somebody like brand Owt.
Speaker 4: I was like, Wow, what's this dude doing. It's different?
Speaker 4: And now we've like seen how many kind of explorations
Speaker 4: like that, And so to me, I'm like, I'm interested
Speaker 4: in something that's ultimately like rom com.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. Well, you know, does it be?
Speaker 4: I almost want to I like, I don't know. I'm
Speaker 4: not saying that I'm a part of it, but I
Speaker 4: want to see a vanguard of like new it's something
Speaker 4: truly new, like like that there's there's new things of
Speaker 4: God to come along and new people and new ideas.
Speaker 4: And to me, I want to see something that's like
Speaker 4: genuinely like complex and mature but inspiring and hopeful, you know.
Speaker 4: And I don't think we see a whole lot of
Speaker 4: all those things together.
Speaker 2: You mentioned that you're in your your pod pod Crush studio,
Speaker 2: So tell me about pot crush. I'm curious about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is this is maybe part of that,
Speaker 4: trying to create something that's that's mature and complex but
Speaker 4: also very sweet and wholesome and hopeful. It's it's a story,
Speaker 4: I mean, so it's in the name crushed, like feeling
Speaker 4: crushed and having crushes. These are the first kind of
Speaker 4: introductions to mature life that we have as people. You know,
Speaker 4: when you're in middle school in America, but the world over,
Speaker 4: it's like what eleven to fifteen something like that. These
Speaker 4: are formative years, you know, and and and and you
Speaker 4: can have stories that are that are that are that
Speaker 4: are hilarious and awkward or really traumatic and profound, and
Speaker 4: you can kind of toggle between those extremes and find
Speaker 4: all this depth and like sources of identity, and so,
Speaker 4: you know, that's what we do on the show.
Speaker 2: I have two co.
Speaker 4: Hosts who are former middle school teachers or administrators. And
Speaker 4: actually my business partner Nowva Kavlan, who's one of the
Speaker 4: co hosts. She used to work at the un and
Speaker 4: she one of her focuses was was research in media
Speaker 4: and the effects of media on young people. And so,
Speaker 4: like you know, being in the shows I've been a
Speaker 4: part of, those are some of our first conversations and
Speaker 4: thinking about you know, just like young people and how
Speaker 4: they're the future, wanting to inspire them and encourage them,
Speaker 4: and so it's just one of those conversations turned into
Speaker 4: in some way this podcast. We have a lot of
Speaker 4: other things that we're trying to make but this is
Speaker 4: one of them.
Speaker 2: That's cool, man, that sounds great. Got to I gotta
Speaker 2: check up before we bring on our guest u because
Speaker 2: this is applicable you follow the Bahai faith. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: I just I'm wondering how you came to that, because
Speaker 2: this will, you know, kind of lead it to our
Speaker 2: our next guest here. Yeah, it does.
Speaker 4: So I was what I was probably about twenty eleven,
Speaker 4: so I was like, maybe, you know, something like ten
Speaker 4: twelve years ago I first met a Behigh. It is
Speaker 4: what you could say an independent world religion in the
Speaker 4: sense that it has a founder and it has a
Speaker 4: practices that define it as a religion. But a lot
Speaker 4: about it is I think, redefining a modern conception of
Speaker 4: religion very much. And I personally came from a very
Speaker 4: sort of a religious or anti religious background, so I
Speaker 4: was not looking for anything that I would call religion,
Speaker 4: and I didn't feel comfortable using the word God. But
Speaker 4: I was a spiritual seeker something, you know, I mean,
Speaker 4: acting like that was always my art, was my religion,
Speaker 4: and in.
Speaker 2: Some ways it still is. You know.
Speaker 4: It's not that there's a dichotomy there, it's just it's
Speaker 4: just what is that the human spirit? And how we
Speaker 4: all believe. I don't care who you are, everybody feels
Speaker 4: something like there's you know, there's this human spirit, whatever
Speaker 4: that is, and how do you connect to that, how
Speaker 4: do you contribute to that? How do you draw from it?
Speaker 4: For me, it was art. And then there got a
Speaker 4: point where, like I said, actually I had no connection
Speaker 4: to that art anymore. I was deep in the machine
Speaker 4: of television, deep in deep in gossip Girl years and
Speaker 4: I and I was, frankly, I was in despair. I
Speaker 4: didn't I didn't I didn't know where it all led.
Speaker 4: I knew that I had succeeded more than most do.
Speaker 4: And I didn't have any kind of satisfaction because of it,
Speaker 4: not a single bit if anything. It made me feel
Speaker 4: worse as we all hear, you know, about fame and
Speaker 4: money and all that stuff, and I didn't even even
Speaker 4: have as much of it as you know, it can
Speaker 4: it can get, it can really get up there. And
Speaker 4: I was just being introduced to it, and I was
Speaker 4: already like not doing too well.
Speaker 2: So I was trying.
Speaker 4: So I was trying to find some unique source of truth,
Speaker 4: of reality, of wisdom, you know, of like of safety,
Speaker 4: and security. And again I did not find and seek
Speaker 4: out the Ba High Faith directly. As a result of that,
Speaker 4: what I did was I went and stayed with a
Speaker 4: tribe in Colombia called the Kogi tribe, which is the
Speaker 4: largest pre Columbian intact civilization to date, and they've got
Speaker 4: a deep practice and mythology and all this kind of
Speaker 4: stuff and ritual and ceremonies. So I stayed with this
Speaker 4: tribe for about two weeks and I happened to meet
Speaker 4: a Behid there. And what's funny is that he was
Speaker 4: like the only other early twenties white guy from New
Speaker 4: York City there, and so I didn't really want to
Speaker 4: stay in touch with him. He was not the person
Speaker 4: I was trying to connect with, you know what I mean,
Speaker 4: right exactly? Sure, And then we just kept running into
Speaker 4: each other between the years of Occupy Wall Street and
Speaker 4: Black Lives Matter, because I was very oriented towards and
Speaker 4: am you know, oriented towards then I would have said
Speaker 4: the word protest meant a lot to me. Now I
Speaker 4: do think a bit differently, so I don't just want
Speaker 4: to reduce it to that, but but that was something
Speaker 4: I was very interested in. And yeah, so over time.
Speaker 4: I just every now and then, basically what he what
Speaker 4: he was doing for me, and what I use the
Speaker 4: b Hy faith for is to link individual spiritual transformation
Speaker 4: or whatever you want to call that mental evolution, conscious
Speaker 4: evolution to that of the evolution of society. You know,
Speaker 4: how do those two things connect. It's not just personal.
Speaker 4: It has to contribute to the greater good? Otherwise what
Speaker 4: are you doing it for? You know? And and he
Speaker 4: he would just share things and every now and then
Speaker 4: I'd be like, what are you about to like, what
Speaker 4: are you talking about? And then eventually, yeah, I just
Speaker 4: like I became very committed, you know, the few behis
Speaker 4: I knew. I was like, these people are the most
Speaker 4: rad people I know. I think I think there's something
Speaker 4: I got to do, you know. And and of course
Speaker 4: the actual writings of the founder Baha'lah. I mean, these
Speaker 4: things are I've never encountered any writings like them. They're
Speaker 4: they're they're like the deepest poetry you know that speaks
Speaker 4: to my heart unlike any other. So you know, that's
Speaker 4: that's that's that's that's that's the essence of it. I
Speaker 4: guess that's that's it. In a nutshell, Well, that's that's great.
Speaker 2: I mean, what a what a fascinating journey to to
Speaker 2: Columbia and then back to occupy and and meeting this guy.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it's it's and it's not the
Speaker 2: route that I think somebody would would necessarily uh uh
Speaker 2: think of in terms of, you know, discovering a higher
Speaker 2: spiritual plane. But that's that's really fascinating.
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Speaker 2: The Tahira Justice Center secular organization founded on the principles
Speaker 2: of the Bahigh faith, and we want to h be
Speaker 2: part of what we're doing here with this podcast is
Speaker 2: not only talking to famous and talented people like yourself,
Speaker 2: but also shedding light on the people behind the scenes
Speaker 2: who are involved in the organizations that the famous people
Speaker 2: care about. So I want to bring in from the
Speaker 2: Tahira Justice Center, Anusha Sinai, who is the director managing it.
Speaker 2: What is your actual title and thank you for being
Speaker 2: here with us.
Speaker 3: You welcome. My official title is the managing Attorney for
Speaker 3: the Greater DC Baltimore Regional Team.
Speaker 2: Gotcha, Okay, tell me how you got involved and what
Speaker 2: is the work that the Justice Center is doing currently?
Speaker 3: Or The Taire Justice Center is a national nonprofit organization.
Speaker 3: It's a bahaih inspired organization whose mission is to deliver
Speaker 3: holistic services to immigrant survivors of gender based violence. And
Speaker 3: so we provide not only legal services, but social services,
Speaker 3: policy advocacy, and our whole plethora of basic needs that
Speaker 3: our clients may need.
Speaker 2: That's that's amazing and is ours? Is this? Are does?
Speaker 2: Are there people of the High Faith all over the world? Yes?
Speaker 3: Yes, although it is an organization inspired by the Bahai
Speaker 3: Faith and not all the staff members are b High
Speaker 3: but yes, the Bahai Faith, it's a worldwide religion. You
Speaker 3: find behind members all over the world. I myself, I'm
Speaker 3: originally from Italy and I grew up in the Bahiah
Speaker 3: community in Italy and the main purpose of the Bahai
Speaker 3: faith is unity of mankind, which may appear simplistic in statement,
Speaker 3: but it comes through the implementation of a variety of
Speaker 3: socioeconomic principles that are based in spiritual teachings for the
Speaker 3: betterment of humanity, and the equality between the genders is
Speaker 3: one of them, hence the inspiration for the organization.
Speaker 2: Well, certainly equality in terms of gender worldwide is a
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a it's a it's a If it's
Speaker 2: a big problem here in the States, then you know
Speaker 2: that it's a huge problem many other places in the world.
Speaker 2: And and so what what specifically in what specific countries
Speaker 2: are are are you are you focused on or is
Speaker 2: it immigrants to the States that are that are mostly
Speaker 2: focused on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So all our clients are mostly here in the
Speaker 3: United States. They come from all parts of the world.
Speaker 3: The majority, if you're looking for specific percentages, the majority
Speaker 3: of our percentages are from areas in Central America, South America,
Speaker 3: and Sub Sahara Africa. But we do have a great
Speaker 3: diverse demographic in terms of geographical coverage.
Speaker 2: Now, if if someone comes to the States, what are
Speaker 2: the main problems that they faced in terms of being
Speaker 2: immigrant in terms of gender and inequality.
Speaker 3: So most immigrants, and I will include myself in it,
Speaker 3: don't usually leave their home country out of volition unless
Speaker 3: there is something else, you know, ahead for our client.
Speaker 3: Most of the times, unfortunately, or situations of violence and
Speaker 3: war zones and forceful departure. And that's that's mostly the
Speaker 3: experience of the clients that we serve when they come
Speaker 3: to this country. Apart from the expected barriers such as
Speaker 3: language systems, understanding exactly where to go and how to
Speaker 3: go and what to get, even just disparity in terms
Speaker 3: of food access and so forth, they come in with
Speaker 3: a great deal of fear towards law enforcement, for example,
Speaker 3: and then and they have to face a great deal
Speaker 3: of stereotypes, a great deal of biases, a great deal
Speaker 3: of prejudice, and oftentimes they find themselves in situation where,
Speaker 3: out of fear, will not report on instances of islands
Speaker 3: that may have occurred here in the United States, whether
Speaker 3: while in detention, in immigration detention, or while in the
Speaker 3: United States more generally.
Speaker 2: You know, Penn, I want to just a pivot to
Speaker 2: you for a second. And you know, when I hear
Speaker 2: about this kind of work, I think to myself, there's
Speaker 2: a lot of things that you could be doing rather
Speaker 2: than supporting an organization like this, A lot of things
Speaker 2: that probably would be an easier lift. Well, the easiest
Speaker 2: lift of all is not having any point of view
Speaker 2: outside of just trying to get a gig and you know,
Speaker 2: like doing your work and as you said, going home
Speaker 2: and being an exhausted Is there something outside of the
Speaker 2: behind connection which clearly led you to this organization that
Speaker 2: you just feel is important in terms of getting involved
Speaker 2: with something outside of this crazy industry that we had.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, so I'll try and be succinct, and
Speaker 4: I'll try and start with the small and then go
Speaker 4: to the big. So I mean, I wouldn't have become
Speaker 4: so intimately involved with the organization if it wasn't for
Speaker 4: my friendship with the founder, lay Miller Muro. She you know,
Speaker 4: we we weren't close friends, but we had met and
Speaker 4: we had a lot of mutual friends and through.
Speaker 2: The Bahai community. And so so what happened was she.
Speaker 4: What in the fall of I don't know, twenty eighteen
Speaker 4: or twenty nineteen, she she asked me if I could
Speaker 4: help basically amplify the story of one person, one client
Speaker 4: of theirs, in particular, and yeah, yeah, so I'll try.
Speaker 4: I mean again, it like it aknew she can help
Speaker 4: me because there are so many particulars about each person's
Speaker 4: story that are so connected to these really deep systemic
Speaker 4: in justice in our country's legal system that you know, again,
Speaker 4: I'm trying to be brief and connect the big to
Speaker 4: the small. It's very very confusing sometimes, but basically, like
Speaker 4: what Anusia said about the ba High Faith, you know,
Speaker 4: you asked, how much does it extend just beyond that generally?
Speaker 4: So I mean, if you're thinking about the oneness of
Speaker 4: humanity as a simple concept but having a really really
Speaker 4: complex and kind of unimaginable reality as we try to
Speaker 4: bring it into reality. So like one of the things
Speaker 4: that I think is represents that spirit is that when
Speaker 4: you're trying to do something, it can't just really be arbitrary.
Speaker 4: There has to be some kind of real motivation to
Speaker 4: do it, you know, like like where does And actually
Speaker 4: I think in this case, there were two things.
Speaker 2: For me.
Speaker 4: It was that I was on a show perpetrating such
Speaker 4: egregious cases of male violence, you know, usually on women,
Speaker 4: and then I had this friendship. So that's the big
Speaker 4: and the small. It's like this big, giant social thing,
Speaker 4: and then the small is oh, I had a friend,
Speaker 4: you know, I actually had a friend who did this work,
Speaker 4: and she was a woman, and she could speak to
Speaker 4: it and and and she could really bring me into
Speaker 4: the work like broadly and socially why it's important. And
Speaker 4: then also I witnessed kind of just firsthand, even through
Speaker 4: these glimpses, like what it actually looked like on the ground.
Speaker 4: I mean, I met this woman, Vilma Carrello, who who
Speaker 4: was in detention in Georgia. She was separated from her daughter.
Speaker 4: Her daughter was born in the States, so her daughter
Speaker 4: was a US citizen.
Speaker 2: Where was she speaking?
Speaker 4: I want to make sure this is accurate, but Guatemala, Guatemala, ounkin.
Speaker 4: I'm again, it's been a long time since I since
Speaker 4: I did the specific work with Velma, So you know,
Speaker 4: again the yeahs as I as. I maybe stumbled some
Speaker 4: of the details, but I mean the the the challenge. No,
Speaker 4: I've only met Vilma once, Like I've only met Vilma once,
Speaker 4: and then she was behind behind plexiglass. She was she
Speaker 4: was she was being detained, you know, basically for just
Speaker 4: coming here. And I would actually let Anusha speak to
Speaker 4: like this really difficult kind of when people come here
Speaker 4: in a position like Vilma's, they're immediately placed in a
Speaker 4: in a in a in a position of impossibility. They
Speaker 4: have a genuine, very simple personal need for help, and
Speaker 4: they deserve that because they're human. And and actually, even
Speaker 4: though there shouldn't be some kind of merit based ranking,
Speaker 4: if you want to start trying to do that, you know,
Speaker 4: like some kind of moral ranking system, as Innu she
Speaker 4: was saying, a lot of times, people who are leaving
Speaker 4: here are doing something heroic. Sorry, people coming here are
Speaker 4: doing something heroic. They're leaving a home they don't want
Speaker 4: to leave, they're being forced. They're often women and children,
Speaker 4: you know, and they're doing actually the thing that we
Speaker 4: tell stories about, you know, like they're they're doing they're
Speaker 4: doing a hero's role. And then, of course, in our
Speaker 4: in our sort of polarized political system, they get either
Speaker 4: painted by one side as as villains or you know,
Speaker 4: unfortunately kind of objectified by the other side trying to
Speaker 4: sort of use them as talking points and and and
Speaker 4: the average person trying to like understand the reality here
Speaker 4: and like do anything meaningful is kind of lost in
Speaker 4: this polarized, divisive debate. Sure, yeah, you know what I
Speaker 4: mean and like, and so what does it actually all mean,
Speaker 4: what does actually look like?
Speaker 2: What can I actually do?
Speaker 4: And so as as a person who's famous, I have
Speaker 4: this uncommon ability to bring it to something just by
Speaker 4: literally pointing to it or being part of it or
Speaker 4: posting or something, you know. And so that's why Ley
Speaker 4: invited me into this work. Lady Millnermuro, the founder of
Speaker 4: the Taha Justice Center, she she invited me into into
Speaker 4: just to help amplify the story of this one person,
Speaker 4: to help her reunite her with her daughter.
Speaker 2: And we did.
Speaker 4: And that's you know something I'm I'm actually.
Speaker 2: Really proud of.
Speaker 4: And I want to highlight that I played a very
Speaker 4: small role, you know, I suppose it in some manner,
Speaker 4: a pivotal role, but very very small.
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of roles to play, Anusia, I want I'm
Speaker 2: interested in your point of view because this is a
Speaker 2: little bit what we talk about on this podcast Visa
Speaker 2: v the use of celebrity in terms of amplifying things
Speaker 2: that are important and the work that you're doing. Do
Speaker 2: you see any kind of a direct connection there, Yes.
Speaker 3: Yes I do, and I don't know necessarily if it
Speaker 3: is always a positive or an negative right. Because let
Speaker 3: me let me just take one step back. There are
Speaker 3: laws in the United States that allow for an immigrant
Speaker 3: who's coming to this country to seek a path towards
Speaker 3: justice and safety. Right, so those laws exist. It's not
Speaker 3: like our work is shooting in the dark and trying
Speaker 3: to make a case out of something that's not actually codified.
Speaker 3: The unfortunate reality is that the system is oppressive to
Speaker 3: begin with. This system is built to create this othering
Speaker 3: in all of these individuals that come to the United
Speaker 3: States to seek justice and safety. So when we are
Speaker 3: partnering with voices such as yours and such as Pens,
Speaker 3: it amplifies the rights that already exist in this country
Speaker 3: and the pathways that exist in this country, and that
Speaker 3: the government of this country actually creative for the purpose
Speaker 3: of justice. We have forgotten what that looks like in
Speaker 3: when we go and implement it, because we have been
Speaker 3: distracted by focusing on the immigrant that fulfills our thought
Speaker 3: of what they should look like, they should behave like
Speaker 3: they should come here for. And so to have powerful
Speaker 3: partnership like celebrities like yourself and pen truly is allowing
Speaker 3: us to go in with a huge magnifying glass and
Speaker 3: say no, no, wait a second, let's go back to
Speaker 3: the original intent behind these laws, behind these opportunities, and
Speaker 3: let's afford all human beings a fair chance and not
Speaker 3: not based on politics and rhetorics that may be going
Speaker 3: on at the time.
Speaker 2: Tell me what it was that you brought you specifically
Speaker 2: to this work, this kind of work.
Speaker 3: That's a very interesting and very deep question. I always
Speaker 3: felt since the age of five that my purpose was.
Speaker 3: When I was five, my word was defenser, like I
Speaker 3: needed to defend, and I was very much aware of
Speaker 3: what my surroundings were. I myself, I am a ba hih.
Speaker 3: You heard me earlier saying that I was born and
Speaker 3: raised in Italy, but I have nothing Italian in my blood.
Speaker 3: I'm fully Iranian. My parents are Iranian immigrants into Italy.
Speaker 3: So I think from from the very beginning, that's what
Speaker 3: connected me with this idea of sharing the immigrant experience
Speaker 3: in a way that elevates the challenges and the the
Speaker 3: the need to be seen as a whole person and
Speaker 3: not just as part of a person. And so that
Speaker 3: connected me with the work of the Tahari Justice Center.
Speaker 2: And what is what what is the to her Justice
Speaker 2: Center working on right now, what's the is there is
Speaker 2: there some specific program that you're deep in.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I'm sure you're aware that we touch on
Speaker 3: various programs that have the gender based component. Right, So,
Speaker 3: we work on the under the violence again swim and at,
Speaker 3: we work with trafficking survivors, We work with children who
Speaker 3: arrived to this country and need that pathway to justice.
Speaker 3: And then a couple of years ago, as we all
Speaker 3: watched the crisis in Afghanistan, we saw also the influx
Speaker 3: of immigrants from that area of the world, and so
Speaker 3: we created a specific project that allowed for a quick
Speaker 3: and efficient answer to the need of our funds that
Speaker 3: were coming into the United States and created the Afghan
Speaker 3: Asylum Project, and that in the last couple of weeks,
Speaker 3: we finally are seeing successful stories come out of some
Speaker 3: of those applications and our first wins for those asilum cases,
Speaker 3: which is wonderful.
Speaker 2: That's amazing, that's awesome. Are there ways that people listening
Speaker 2: here can specifically help or get.
Speaker 3: Involved many ways, many many ways. But as we are
Speaker 3: in the twenty first century, you know, social platforms are
Speaker 3: the best way to gather information. We are present on
Speaker 3: Facebook and Instagram, and Twitter. Our website Tahari dot org
Speaker 3: is a wonderful opportunity for individuals to learn more and
Speaker 3: find the best way that works for them to contribute.
Speaker 3: If anyone is moved to provide financial donations, that is
Speaker 3: certainly welcomed and always always appreciated.
Speaker 2: I'm going to spell it out because I want I
Speaker 2: don't want anybody to miss this. T A H I
Speaker 2: are i h dot org? Is that correct?
Speaker 3: That is correct?
Speaker 2: Okay, I want to make sure that that's there and
Speaker 2: on and on that on that site, I'm sure you
Speaker 2: can find all of the various tags for whatever, Twitter, Instagram,
Speaker 2: all the other socials right, yes, exactly, and different ways
Speaker 2: to uh to help out, donate, get information and uh listen,
Speaker 2: I want to thank you both so much for being
Speaker 2: here today. Uh, it's it's great to connect with you, Penn.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm shocked at our paths haven't crossed until now,
Speaker 2: but I really enjoyed the you know, having this conversation
Speaker 2: with you. Than thank you for having me and the
Speaker 2: news you. Please keep up the good work and it's
Speaker 2: it's it's very it's very valuable and important and uh,
Speaker 2: thanks a lot for being here. Hey, guys, thanks for
Speaker 2: listening to another episode of six Degrees. If you want
Speaker 2: to learn about the ta Hera Justice Center, just hit
Speaker 2: to their website at the tai Hera Justice Center dot com.
Speaker 2: You can find all the links in our show notes.
Speaker 2: If you like what you hear, make sure you subscribe
Speaker 2: to the show and tune into the rest of our episodes.
Speaker 2: You can find it on iHeartRadio, Apple podcast, or wherever
Speaker 2: you get your podcasts.