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Speaker 1: The following episode was recorded before the WGA sag Aftra

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Speaker 1: strikes of twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 2: So I was reminiscing on my early career and the

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Speaker 2: need for community, and at one point in my life

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Speaker 2: I started feeling pulled to give back. I was kind

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Speaker 2: of inspired by Paul Newman. I mean literally, like I

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Speaker 2: opened the fridge and I looked at the spaghetti sauce

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Speaker 2: and Paul was staring back at me, and you know,

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Speaker 2: they had raised hundreds of millions of dollars for charity

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Speaker 2: by doing something that you know, he really loved, which

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Speaker 2: was food and tomato sauce and popcorn and all those things.

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Speaker 2: And then I thought to myself, is there anything that

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Speaker 2: I have that could be branded in this same kind

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Speaker 2: of way to turn it into some kind of force

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Speaker 2: for good? And that's how we came up with the

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Speaker 2: six degrees thing. So my guest today, Penn Badgeley, brought

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Speaker 2: this exact point up. Our celebrities actually being helpful when

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Speaker 2: they leveraged their platforms for social impact. Is a tweet

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Speaker 2: really enough? So lean it. I'm glad you're Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 2: we've got Penn Badgely here with us today. Penn, thank

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Speaker 2: you so much. Okay, so you were early to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Are you a compulsively early person? Like, No, I am.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: It's funny.

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Speaker 4: It's funny that you say early. I mean I think

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Speaker 4: I was maybe four to five minutes early. That's early, man,

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Speaker 4: Which is You're right, it is early. No, I mean

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Speaker 4: especially since I had a toddler. You know, I've got

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Speaker 4: a I've got a I've got a two and three

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Speaker 4: month old.

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Speaker 2: So I would say.

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Speaker 4: These days, being on time is a is a feat,

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Speaker 4: is a herculean feet and I managed to do it

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Speaker 4: when you know, when I really need to do it.

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Speaker 4: But no, I'm not. I'm definitely not compulsively early. Although

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Speaker 4: I loved the feeling of being early.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, well there goes my theory out the window.

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Speaker 2: You know, we have a lot of connections, but one

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Speaker 2: of the and this show is kind of about connections

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Speaker 2: with one of the connections I thought about, which probably

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Speaker 2: in my mind related to being early, was that we

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Speaker 2: both correct me if I'm wrong. Started out on the soaps, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: which one? Were you on The Young and the Restless?

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Speaker 2: And you know I was so you young? Were restless

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Speaker 2: or both? I was young. I was definitely young. I

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Speaker 2: was not. I was so young that I couldn't be

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Speaker 2: restless yet. I was. I was thirteen and fourteen years

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Speaker 2: old when I was Oh were you really?

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Speaker 3: Wow?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, okay, wow wow. Well I was on My

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Speaker 2: first soap was called Search for Tomorrow, and then the

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Speaker 2: second one that I was on for about a year

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Speaker 2: was Guiding Light. And what I'd like to say about

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Speaker 2: the soap because a lot of people will say to me,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's just such a great training ground, and honestly,

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Speaker 2: for acting, I think it's a terrible training ground. I

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Speaker 2: agree with that. I mean in terms of, like, because

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Speaker 2: all you're doing is trying to make these lousy expositional

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Speaker 2: lines works. But what it is a good training ground

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Speaker 2: for is uh professionalism because you have to be there absolutely,

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Speaker 2: you know, when you're fourteen fifteen years old and you're

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Speaker 2: on which was probably maybe the biggest one that I

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Speaker 2: think maybe for a while. Yeah, so you're not going

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Speaker 2: to show up like, you know, half an hour late,

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Speaker 2: like they'll they'll they'll find they'll find another be another

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Speaker 2: kid the next week, and nobody will care.

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Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, profoundly, like you really

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Speaker 4: do feel at that age, especially I just remember being

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Speaker 4: really intimidated by it. It seemed like this giant apparatus,

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Speaker 4: this giant machine and going to CBS Radford or was

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Speaker 4: it the big the big CBS, the big giant CBS

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Speaker 4: where like you know they do.

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Speaker 2: The price is right.

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Speaker 4: It just it just was like iconic and historical. And

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Speaker 4: I was a short thirteen year old and everybody just

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Speaker 4: seems so tall and mustachioed, and it just it was

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Speaker 4: really nice. I mean, honestly it sticks out at my life. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I don't use it often, but there, I mean, there's

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Speaker 4: there's the who I'm thinking of is I forget his

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Speaker 4: real name, but he played this character named Victor on

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Speaker 4: The Young and the Restless. Anybody who knows it would

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Speaker 4: he just and he's got this iconic mustache, like probably

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Speaker 4: for forty years just had that thing.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, that's cool man. Well listen, you know you've

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Speaker 2: had such a you know, interesting career. So was that

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Speaker 2: your very first gig and do you before that, do

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Speaker 2: you remember the moment where you kind of said, I

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Speaker 2: think this is what I want to do with my life.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, very much so. I was probably nine when I

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Speaker 4: realized this is what I want to do. Quote unquote,

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Speaker 4: and that was in theater I was doing. I was

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Speaker 4: doing community theater in Washington State where I lived at

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Speaker 4: that that point. But so I lived, I lived very

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Speaker 4: out in the Styx for a period.

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Speaker 2: We'd moved from east What was the town? What town

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Speaker 2: was it?

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Speaker 4: I mean it was outside of Isa, so it did

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Speaker 4: outside of Seattle. It wasn't that far into Seattle, which

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Speaker 4: seemed like such a major, major, and I mean it

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Speaker 4: is a city, it's a huge city, but but it

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Speaker 4: Having never lived in a place like New York at

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Speaker 4: that point, having never lived in a city, it was

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Speaker 4: it was like, you know, this giant metropolis and I

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Speaker 4: lived in in the mountains, skirting it. And because I

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Speaker 4: didn't have a lot of social outlets, theater was that

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Speaker 4: theater became that I and I and I loved the

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Speaker 4: art of it.

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Speaker 2: I did.

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Speaker 4: I clearly was drawn to that. But then I think

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Speaker 4: what I what what turned me on was was the

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Speaker 4: the sort of communal aspect, you know, like makes the

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Speaker 4: fact that the fact that you are encountering so many

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Speaker 4: different kinds of people, you know, like there was this

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Speaker 4: there's renowned playhouse there for young people called Seattle Children's

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Speaker 4: Theater that I was a part of. And you know,

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Speaker 4: I just remember like these I was probably eleven, and

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Speaker 4: there were like these fourteen and sixteen year olds writing

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Speaker 4: these like subversive progressive plays. I remember one was called

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Speaker 4: The Barbie's Demise, and you know, it was like it

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Speaker 4: was it was, it was inspiring, and so to me

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Speaker 4: it just seemed like a way to enter into and

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Speaker 4: participate in culture. Just it was art, you know. And

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Speaker 4: then by the time I was in LA a few

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Speaker 4: years later, and of course years then feel like lifetimes

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Speaker 4: when you're that age, you know. I mean, I'm trying

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Speaker 4: to think, like I started working in TV mostly I

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Speaker 4: did some films, and you know, everything was just like, okay,

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Speaker 4: I guess this is how it becomes a profession. But

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Speaker 4: you know, I have to say, because I started so young,

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Speaker 4: that delineation between like pure sort of creative joy and

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Speaker 4: then like what it actually looks like as a job

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Speaker 4: that's always been I don't know, it's just it's just

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Speaker 4: it's just I feel like now in my in my

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Speaker 4: late thirties, I'm starting to recover some of that joy

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Speaker 4: and oh yeah, you know what I mean, One for

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Speaker 4: one for the meal, one for the real. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 4: that is that's that's something I think that they I mean,

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Speaker 4: I think if you are an artist, which you clearly are,

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Speaker 4: then you're gonna have.

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Speaker 2: Some conflicts around it. You know what I mean, because

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Speaker 2: exactly so much of what we do is is you know,

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Speaker 2: the bottom line and trying to listen, trying to make

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Speaker 2: a living. I think we have a kid, it gets

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Speaker 2: it gets doubled down because all of a sudden, I

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Speaker 2: know what you're feeling, was but all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: I was like, shit, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta

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Speaker 2: step up. This is not just about me anymore, you know,

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Speaker 2: I gotta I gotta provide. In a very I had

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Speaker 2: a very strong kind of like fundamentally male sort of

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Speaker 2: reaction to fatherhood, which was, Okay, here we go. I

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Speaker 2: gotta provide, you know, I get built, build the you know,

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Speaker 2: the brick house, and yeah. So I so I think

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Speaker 2: that having those two things in combination are are tough.

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Speaker 2: And you know, it's interesting you were saying about sets

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Speaker 2: of community. I that was for me one of the

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Speaker 2: two really important things when I first explored theater. Around

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Speaker 2: the same age that that that you did, I was

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Speaker 2: I was growing up in Philadelphia, I was finding any

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Speaker 2: kind of you know, theater stuff that I could do.

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Speaker 2: One was like I loved the closeness of these companies

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Speaker 2: that I was. I wasn't in children's theater. I was

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Speaker 2: like apprenticing at at you know, grown up theaters. That's cool,

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Speaker 2: sweeping the stage and stuff like that. And they were

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Speaker 2: all like, you know, loved each other or they were

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Speaker 2: hated each other, but they had this kind of like

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Speaker 2: bond that I felt like I really wanted to be

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Speaker 2: part of that club. But the other thing for me

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Speaker 2: was being a kid and just being a guy and

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Speaker 2: trying to stay you know, kind of cool all the

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Speaker 2: time and trying to be tough and you know, front

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Speaker 2: with this kind of toughness. When I got into this

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Speaker 2: this place where we were all like, ah, you know,

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Speaker 2: let's let's pretend you're an art choke, you know, or

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Speaker 2: cross and all this other other kind of stuff, I

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Speaker 2: was like, Wow, this is I found a very very

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Speaker 2: uh it was like it was a real release from

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Speaker 2: me as a little boy. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that that really resonates for me. I mean,

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Speaker 4: you know, it's it's awesome.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 4: I'm trying to think back, like because yeah, I did

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Speaker 4: I did do plays with full adult casts and stuff too.

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Speaker 4: And then of course you start getting into working in LA.

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Speaker 4: At the age that I did, I was usually working

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Speaker 4: alongside adults, and so I think it was this really

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Speaker 4: interesting mix of like something that was genuinely freeing and

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Speaker 4: then it was really laced with all that other toxic

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Speaker 4: stuff you can't escape and culture anyway too, you know,

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Speaker 4: and and the way. And so for me, because I

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Speaker 4: moved to LA and was working at at at twelves,

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Speaker 4: you know, and so then so by the time I

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Speaker 4: got in young and the restles saw this, I feel

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Speaker 4: like I have two minds of it, Like, man, it's

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Speaker 4: incredible that I've lived a life being able to do

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Speaker 4: what I love. That's that's true. And what can also

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Speaker 4: be true at the same time, is it because I

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Speaker 4: started doing that so young. I've never I can't really

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Speaker 4: recall after ten years old it not feeling like it

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Speaker 4: was somehow, Like you know, when you make something a job,

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Speaker 4: there's then this pressure, you know, I mean years later

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Speaker 4: when you have children. Of course that's a very real thing.

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Speaker 4: But I, you know, needing to prove myself at such

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Speaker 4: a young age, these sorts of things they you know,

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Speaker 4: you start to realize that it's you. I'm not sure

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Speaker 4: how to put words to it, but it's like it really,

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Speaker 4: all I know is that becoming professional and professionally competent

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Speaker 4: and actually financially independent at a very young age has

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Speaker 4: it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a

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Speaker 4: complex thing, you know, and it's sort of left its

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Speaker 4: mark and I and I think, you know, I kind

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Speaker 4: of wish that. I don't wish it, but I know

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Speaker 4: that I would have a different relationship to it if

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Speaker 4: I started a bit later and had you know, I

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Speaker 4: have friends who work now who went to conservatory, they

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Speaker 4: went to school for it, or they even sounds to

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Speaker 4: me like apprenticing a a at a real playhouse at

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Speaker 4: fourteen fifteen, that sounds like it has a purity to

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Speaker 4: it that for me felt like at that age was

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Speaker 4: already being kind of snatched away. And you know, you

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Speaker 4: mentioned the thing about like it's not a great training

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Speaker 4: for an actor to be in a soap opera because

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Speaker 4: you are turning paragraphs of exposition at a rate it's

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Speaker 4: so you know, you have to clip it out, you

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Speaker 4: get two takes. Maybe I think, you know, it's like

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Speaker 4: they are on time and to me that I was

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Speaker 4: so young and impressionable that those were not great lessons

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Speaker 4: to learn about what it means to be an actor.

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Speaker 2: You know, well, it certainly hasn't hurt your acting, and

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Speaker 2: it certainly hasn't hurt your your ability to you have

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Speaker 2: a career and to find I mean speaking of you know,

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Speaker 2: doing things that you find creatively satisfying. Uh what about

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Speaker 2: the band and the music? Yeah, I mean are you?

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Speaker 2: Are you? Is the band's how do you pronounce that name? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So it's just mother. We didn't X.

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Speaker 4: We had to go the X because there are a

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Speaker 4: couple of other mothers who gave us a cease and desist.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right. I like the spelling. I like this bell.

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Speaker 2: It was a it was a hip thing to do

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Speaker 2: at the time. Yeah, I was. I was just checking

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Speaker 2: it out. It's it's it's it's really cool. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I really like the the fact that, uh, it's a

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Speaker 2: very specific sound, you know what I mean. The songs

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Speaker 2: are all very varied, completely varied, but there's but the

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Speaker 2: band has a recognizable sound. Do you guys play out?

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Speaker 4: And and we did so, so we we we have

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Speaker 4: been able to become friends again. But basically it dissolves

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Speaker 4: like so many bands do because you don't realize what

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Speaker 4: you're getting into is like a marriage with with three

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Speaker 4: or four other guys. All of you have to have

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Speaker 4: some kind of emotional maturity otherwise it's nice.

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Speaker 2: Imagine being in the band with your brother. Right.

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Speaker 4: Well, actually, yeah, that's that's pretty that's pretty huge.

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Speaker 2: That's great act. But so, yeah, I know what you mean.

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Speaker 2: It is like a marriage.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well I think you know, because like yours

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Speaker 4: continues ours ours ours did not. We we we we

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Speaker 4: made the one record and we made it in like

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Speaker 4: a month, and we toured it for about three and

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Speaker 4: a half years, and we got i'd say, really good.

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Speaker 2: I can feel really.

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Speaker 4: Good about what we did, what we learned, the way

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Speaker 4: we could play a show, and the record that we made.

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Speaker 4: It felt great. But that were you the writer or

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Speaker 4: the writer? No, I mean so I was. I definitely

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Speaker 4: wrote the lyrics and a lot of the melodies, and

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Speaker 4: we you know, we all influenced each other's roles. But

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Speaker 4: there was a there was a our sort of producer

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Speaker 4: and beat maker who would lay the sort of foundation

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Speaker 4: of the songs. And we had two multi instrumentalists who

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Speaker 4: were like the guitar and bassist in keyboard players kind

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Speaker 4: of when we were recording, and then I would come

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Speaker 4: in and I would sing the top line, and you know,

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Speaker 4: and we and we, but we all did it like

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Speaker 4: in two different airbnbs in Chicago and l a uh

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Speaker 4: over the course of a month, and so we just

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Speaker 4: were all together, you know, just doing it constantly.

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Speaker 2: And and so so that you you were there were

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Speaker 2: some some live some live instruments, but a lot of

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Speaker 2: beats and a lot of tracks.

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Speaker 4: And I mean it sounds very it's gotten, its very

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Speaker 4: trive it is, and I mean at the time, it

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Speaker 4: was even before are In, It was like we were

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Speaker 4: making sort of indie electronic R and B before that

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Speaker 4: was even such a popular kind of like I think

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Speaker 4: the Weekend has now made that sound extremely huge and

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Speaker 4: and and a whole genre in and of itself. But

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Speaker 4: at the time I feel like we were we were

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Speaker 4: were wasn't as common, and we were trying to explore

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Speaker 4: something new and because I mean, we made this record

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Speaker 4: back and I was at the end I think we

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Speaker 4: made it and basically the last month of twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 4: and then we toured from like twenty fourteen to twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, so we made the whole thing was like

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Speaker 4: analog since so everything was very organic in that sense,

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Speaker 4: even though it's electronic. Yep, and uh and then and

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Speaker 4: then the only thing that was completely manufactured where they

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Speaker 4: where there was percussion where the beats.

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Speaker 2: There's a whole whole group of people out there who

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Speaker 2: just heard analogue synth and it just went right for

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Speaker 2: those who know there is such a thing as an

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Speaker 2: organic synth. I mean, it's hard to it's hard to

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Speaker 2: put those two concepts together. You know, You've played so

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Speaker 2: many different kinds of people. I've actually kind of shocked

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Speaker 2: that we've never as far as I know, we've never worked.

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Speaker 4: Together, or we've definitely never worked together. But I remember

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Speaker 4: if we'd met, and I don't think we have.

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Speaker 2: I don't think so, you know, I don't remember and uh,

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Speaker 2: and so that's always kind of fascinating to me. I

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Speaker 2: love this silly thing on you know, on IMDb, where

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Speaker 2: you can hit the connections tab and we have like

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Speaker 2: a whole you know, I'm sure tons tons and tons

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Speaker 2: of connections, especially seeing as you did you in New

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Speaker 2: York or or or you're still doing it.

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Speaker 4: Are you still true. So we uh we just finished

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Speaker 4: the fourth Southon in London.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So first off, that's amazing. I mean, nobody It's

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Speaker 2: like when you know, in the old days, if you

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Speaker 2: got three seasons and they canceled you, Oh, that's a

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Speaker 2: terrible tragy. Now it's like a smash three seasons three,

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Speaker 2: not to mention of four seasons. So congratulations, that is

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Speaker 2: that is very very cool. I mean, are you still

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Speaker 2: enjoying it or did you have enjoy it? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: So because the role is so exhausting kind of like

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Speaker 4: spiritually and physically, I would say I do enjoy it,

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Speaker 4: but I enjoy it kind of like you enjoy at

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Speaker 4: some point, like a really difficult test to like running

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Speaker 4: a marathon. You know, it's like you're like, it's it's

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Speaker 4: a it's a it's a lot. I think typically trying

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Speaker 4: to you know, you talk about soap operas and stuff.

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Speaker 4: I mean, soap operas are an interesting template because they

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Speaker 4: they are kind of like what all television structure comes

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Speaker 4: from in a way, and that television has gotten so

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Speaker 4: good is just is just sort of a testament to

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Speaker 4: the evolution of the format. But it is rooted in

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Speaker 4: what we think of as soap operas, whereas film is different.

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Speaker 4: Film is a different act structure. Well the fangers right exactly,

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Speaker 4: and then of course and the acts are actually have

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Speaker 4: always been structured around commercial breaks. So you know, there's

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Speaker 4: like there's this there's this aspect of television that I

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Speaker 4: think even in the absolute best of television, you know

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Speaker 4: you you still have something there of that original template

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Speaker 4: and one of those things that I think is just

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Speaker 4: still the difference between film and TV to me as

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Speaker 4: an actor is huge, where you you have to do

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Speaker 4: it for so much longer. We're in television, and you

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Speaker 4: have to produce so much more in less time, but

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Speaker 4: for longer periods of time. So so therefore the output

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Speaker 4: is that much more of a of a race, of

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Speaker 4: a sprint, but at marathon length. And so for that reason,

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Speaker 4: a lot of shows are ensembles, and you actually don't

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Speaker 4: usually have one person place so centrally in the middle

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Speaker 4: like you do more in a film structure. So so

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Speaker 4: my show is interesting because it's called you. It's about

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Speaker 4: my character and the way he sees everybody else, and

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Speaker 4: so it's so mental and it's so based in his

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Speaker 4: his his narration and his perspective that you know, my

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Speaker 4: participation is like essential to to like every aspect, even

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Speaker 4: in the editing. Yes, they can't. They can't get going

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Speaker 4: with the edit until they have my voiceover. So that's

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Speaker 4: why I made You've got a tremendous amount of voice

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Speaker 4: It's it's really it's so you know, and I don't

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Speaker 4: say this in any way that I'm complaining. It's just

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Speaker 4: I'm a witness to this process. It's like, wow, Okay,

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Speaker 4: So this is what it means to make like a

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Speaker 4: like a you know in the in the realm of

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Speaker 4: something like a prestige television show, you know, with the

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Speaker 4: spirit of like of of some cinema in it, but

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Speaker 4: also with that really intense kind of soapy, frothy pace.

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Speaker 4: And it's just and frankly, by the end of a

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Speaker 4: six month stint, I am so beyond spent. Like it's

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Speaker 4: it's a lot.

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Speaker 2: I believe, hands down, having worked you know, pretty much

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Speaker 2: across the board in terms of the formats, there is

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Speaker 2: nothing harder than being the lead in an hour long

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Speaker 2: television drama. That is the hardest cake that you can.

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Speaker 4: I kind of agree with you, Yeah, I mean I

377
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Speaker 4: didn't realize it as much until this show somehow. But

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Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, this is because if.

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Speaker 2: You're shooting a movie, it can be really really hard,

380
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Speaker 2: but you know it's going to be over so exactly,

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Speaker 2: you know. But but when you're in an hour long

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Speaker 2: television drama, you're going out there. I didn't realize you

383
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Speaker 2: were in London, but you're you know, you're going out

384
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Speaker 2: there your work and you're working the hours along the

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Speaker 2: demands alone. As you said, it's fast and furious. You

386
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Speaker 2: are gun and trying to make it, trying to every day.

387
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Speaker 2: Every day you just start.

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Speaker 4: And I don't know how relatable this is for people listening,

389
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Speaker 4: but yeah, everyone's.

390
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Speaker 2: Like, wow, I'm so sad.

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Speaker 4: I directed an episode this year, and I cool, I

392
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Speaker 4: finally even more deeply internalized, like you know, the the

393
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Speaker 4: trick with television that's so hard. It's like you basically

394
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Speaker 4: start every day behind so that everybody's just trying to

395
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Speaker 4: make that day that you had twelve hours to complete,

396
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Speaker 4: and it's just it's such a behemoth enterprise and it's legit.

397
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Speaker 4: Oh man, it's like and you know it's it is

398
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Speaker 4: thrilling and exciting for short periods, but but you know,

399
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Speaker 4: it exhausts everybody who's a part of it, all the

400
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Speaker 4: crew members, everything.

401
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Speaker 2: I was talking to an actress recently and this this,

402
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Speaker 2: this is a question that I want to ask you

403
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Speaker 2: about the playing a character like this, and playing a

404
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Speaker 2: character like this over such a long period of time

405
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Speaker 2: when there are things of a super dark nature that

406
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:12,399
Speaker 2: you have to you know, throw yourself into characters that

407
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Speaker 2: do you know, inexcusable kind of things. What she was

408
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Speaker 2: saying to me was that she was done with that

409
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Speaker 2: because she found it to be too traumatic and personally

410
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Speaker 2: too difficult to deal with. And I've heard, I've heard

411
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Speaker 2: my wife is an actress, you know, express kind of

412
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Speaker 2: similar things. For me, I kind of have the opposite reaction,

413
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Speaker 2: because I find that it's a chance to sort of

414
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Speaker 2: therapeutically exercise any kind of darkness that I yes, I

415
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Speaker 2: guess it makes its way into my bones and sometimes

416
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Speaker 2: it's hard to shake. But I but I find that

417
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Speaker 2: this is like a it's you know, it's an exorcism

418
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Speaker 2: of stuff from me. So I'm just wondering if you've

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Speaker 2: if neither of those apply, or if you fall.

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Speaker 4: In the Yeah, I really am somewhere in the middle,

421
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Speaker 4: tending more towards what you just said, But my experience

422
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Speaker 4: is a bit maybe of a different perspective.

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Speaker 2: I think, like.

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Speaker 4: I think, if you do it long enough, no matter

425
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Speaker 4: how you view it, it's going to become exhausting, just

426
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Speaker 4: on a practical level. So I can see Surety being like,

427
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Speaker 4: you know what, I can't. I can't. I can't. Also,

428
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Speaker 4: you know, one kind of this dovetails very I think

429
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Speaker 4: about this a lot because of this specific role and

430
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Speaker 4: how much how violent he is and how ultimately his

431
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Speaker 4: violence lands on women. The two people you mentioned to

432
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Speaker 4: see it that way are women, and interestingly, when they

433
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Speaker 4: have to do something dark, it often involves violence on them,

434
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,400
Speaker 4: And when we have to do something dark, we're often

435
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 4: the perpetrators of that violence.

436
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 2: That's a really good point. And I'm not saying a

437
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 2: good point.

438
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 4: I'm not saying that that doesn't hurt us too.

439
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 2: But it is different. It is different.

440
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 4: It's it's very different, like it's being a sort of

441
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:03,120
Speaker 4: a passive rece receiver of a violence or being an

442
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 4: and and I think I think for someone who's in

443
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,360
Speaker 4: that role, you know, you can't really you can't really

444
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,440
Speaker 4: tell your nervous system you're acting mm hmm. You can,

445
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 4: in fact, in fact, if you're a good actor. A

446
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 4: lot of times, the whole point is that you're blurring

447
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 4: that line. And I think that's so, you know, I really,

448
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 4: to me it becomes and that's where the reason that

449
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,719
Speaker 4: I don't see it as ultimately too traumatic is because

450
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 4: of the way I I take it on as a

451
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,120
Speaker 4: as a as a profoundly kind of sacred and spiritual thing.

452
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 4: You know, as an actor, you are the You're not

453
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 4: the player, You're the instrument. You know, you're the You're

454
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 4: the moment where the You're the place where the pen

455
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 4: meets the page, or where the writer and director meet

456
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,640
Speaker 4: the audience. You know, you're you're the You're the receptor

457
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,160
Speaker 4: or sorry, you're the vessel. You're the channel through which

458
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 4: everybody's seeing all this stuff. Everybody thinks actors have all

459
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 4: this power and agency, and it seems that way because

460
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 4: you know, you're what you see. But we're really there's

461
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 4: nothing we have control over that we say, think, sorry,

462
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 4: not think what we say, what we where we're standing,

463
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 4: Everything about the whole thing we don't have any power

464
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 4: over except for how we feel and think, you know,

465
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 4: like how we respond to it all. And so to me,

466
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 4: taking on such intense material, you know, Like I think,

467
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 4: I continue, what inspires me is is that you have

468
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 4: to ground it, even if sometimes the sort of structure

469
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 4: that's on the page just because of what's got to

470
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 4: happen can't be grounded totally in the reality of like

471
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 4: trauma and violence and human behavior. In that way, I

472
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 4: think as an actor, you naturally find that you find

473
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 4: the reality of the human experience in this intense stuff.

474
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 4: And so to me, if I couldn't keep learning truly

475
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 4: and like reflecting on myself and I think hopefully maybe

476
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 4: becoming a better person whenever that means or at least

477
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 4: like I don't know, some more something you know, And

478
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 4: that's to me what feeds me in it.

479
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 2: Now.

480
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 4: The flip side is that I am tired of bringing

481
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 4: to life a guy that ultimately serves as something as

482
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 4: a warning rather than an invitation. You don't want to

483
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 4: be this guy, and you know you And so to me,

484
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 4: I think what I'm tired of is like exploring the

485
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 4: lower nature of humanity. I'm interested in because we get

486
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 4: a lot of that now. You know, fifty sixty seventy

487
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 4: eight years ago, it wasn't as common to do that,

488
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 4: and you know, so you saw somebody like brand Owt.

489
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 4: I was like, Wow, what's this dude doing. It's different?

490
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 4: And now we've like seen how many kind of explorations

491
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 4: like that, And so to me, I'm like, I'm interested

492
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 4: in something that's ultimately like rom com.

493
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. Well, you know, does it be?

494
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 4: I almost want to I like, I don't know. I'm

495
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 4: not saying that I'm a part of it, but I

496
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 4: want to see a vanguard of like new it's something

497
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 4: truly new, like like that there's there's new things of

498
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 4: God to come along and new people and new ideas.

499
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 4: And to me, I want to see something that's like

500
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 4: genuinely like complex and mature but inspiring and hopeful, you know.

501
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 4: And I don't think we see a whole lot of

502
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 4: all those things together.

503
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 2: You mentioned that you're in your your pod pod Crush studio,

504
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: So tell me about pot crush. I'm curious about it.

505
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is this is maybe part of that,

506
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 4: trying to create something that's that's mature and complex but

507
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 4: also very sweet and wholesome and hopeful. It's it's a story,

508
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 4: I mean, so it's in the name crushed, like feeling

509
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 4: crushed and having crushes. These are the first kind of

510
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,479
Speaker 4: introductions to mature life that we have as people. You know,

511
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 4: when you're in middle school in America, but the world over,

512
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 4: it's like what eleven to fifteen something like that. These

513
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 4: are formative years, you know, and and and and you

514
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 4: can have stories that are that are that are that

515
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 4: are hilarious and awkward or really traumatic and profound, and

516
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 4: you can kind of toggle between those extremes and find

517
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 4: all this depth and like sources of identity, and so,

518
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 4: you know, that's what we do on the show.

519
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: I have two co.

520
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 4: Hosts who are former middle school teachers or administrators. And

521
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 4: actually my business partner Nowva Kavlan, who's one of the

522
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 4: co hosts. She used to work at the un and

523
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 4: she one of her focuses was was research in media

524
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 4: and the effects of media on young people. And so,

525
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 4: like you know, being in the shows I've been a

526
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 4: part of, those are some of our first conversations and

527
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 4: thinking about you know, just like young people and how

528
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 4: they're the future, wanting to inspire them and encourage them,

529
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 4: and so it's just one of those conversations turned into

530
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 4: in some way this podcast. We have a lot of

531
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 4: other things that we're trying to make but this is

532
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 4: one of them.

533
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: That's cool, man, that sounds great. Got to I gotta

534
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 2: check up before we bring on our guest u because

535
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: this is applicable you follow the Bahai faith. Yeah, and

536
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: I just I'm wondering how you came to that, because

537
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 2: this will, you know, kind of lead it to our

538
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: our next guest here. Yeah, it does.

539
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 4: So I was what I was probably about twenty eleven,

540
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 4: so I was like, maybe, you know, something like ten

541
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 4: twelve years ago I first met a Behigh. It is

542
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 4: what you could say an independent world religion in the

543
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 4: sense that it has a founder and it has a

544
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 4: practices that define it as a religion. But a lot

545
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 4: about it is I think, redefining a modern conception of

546
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 4: religion very much. And I personally came from a very

547
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 4: sort of a religious or anti religious background, so I

548
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 4: was not looking for anything that I would call religion,

549
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 4: and I didn't feel comfortable using the word God. But

550
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 4: I was a spiritual seeker something, you know, I mean,

551
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 4: acting like that was always my art, was my religion,

552
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 4: and in.

553
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 2: Some ways it still is. You know.

554
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 4: It's not that there's a dichotomy there, it's just it's

555
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 4: just what is that the human spirit? And how we

556
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 4: all believe. I don't care who you are, everybody feels

557
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 4: something like there's you know, there's this human spirit, whatever

558
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 4: that is, and how do you connect to that, how

559
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 4: do you contribute to that? How do you draw from it?

560
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 4: For me, it was art. And then there got a

561
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 4: point where, like I said, actually I had no connection

562
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 4: to that art anymore. I was deep in the machine

563
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 4: of television, deep in deep in gossip Girl years and

564
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 4: I and I was, frankly, I was in despair. I

565
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 4: didn't I didn't I didn't know where it all led.

566
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 4: I knew that I had succeeded more than most do.

567
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 4: And I didn't have any kind of satisfaction because of it,

568
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 4: not a single bit if anything. It made me feel

569
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 4: worse as we all hear, you know, about fame and

570
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 4: money and all that stuff, and I didn't even even

571
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 4: have as much of it as you know, it can

572
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 4: it can get, it can really get up there. And

573
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 4: I was just being introduced to it, and I was

574
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 4: already like not doing too well.

575
00:29:59,400 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: So I was trying.

576
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 4: So I was trying to find some unique source of truth,

577
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 4: of reality, of wisdom, you know, of like of safety,

578
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 4: and security. And again I did not find and seek

579
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 4: out the Ba High Faith directly. As a result of that,

580
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 4: what I did was I went and stayed with a

581
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 4: tribe in Colombia called the Kogi tribe, which is the

582
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 4: largest pre Columbian intact civilization to date, and they've got

583
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 4: a deep practice and mythology and all this kind of

584
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 4: stuff and ritual and ceremonies. So I stayed with this

585
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 4: tribe for about two weeks and I happened to meet

586
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 4: a Behid there. And what's funny is that he was

587
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 4: like the only other early twenties white guy from New

588
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 4: York City there, and so I didn't really want to

589
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 4: stay in touch with him. He was not the person

590
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 4: I was trying to connect with, you know what I mean,

591
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 4: right exactly? Sure, And then we just kept running into

592
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 4: each other between the years of Occupy Wall Street and

593
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 4: Black Lives Matter, because I was very oriented towards and

594
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 4: am you know, oriented towards then I would have said

595
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 4: the word protest meant a lot to me. Now I

596
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 4: do think a bit differently, so I don't just want

597
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 4: to reduce it to that, but but that was something

598
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 4: I was very interested in. And yeah, so over time.

599
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 4: I just every now and then, basically what he what

600
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 4: he was doing for me, and what I use the

601
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 4: b Hy faith for is to link individual spiritual transformation

602
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 4: or whatever you want to call that mental evolution, conscious

603
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 4: evolution to that of the evolution of society. You know,

604
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 4: how do those two things connect. It's not just personal.

605
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 4: It has to contribute to the greater good? Otherwise what

606
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 4: are you doing it for? You know? And and he

607
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:36,719
Speaker 4: he would just share things and every now and then

608
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 4: I'd be like, what are you about to like, what

609
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 4: are you talking about? And then eventually, yeah, I just

610
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 4: like I became very committed, you know, the few behis

611
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 4: I knew. I was like, these people are the most

612
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 4: rad people I know. I think I think there's something

613
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 4: I got to do, you know. And and of course

614
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 4: the actual writings of the founder Baha'lah. I mean, these

615
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 4: things are I've never encountered any writings like them. They're

616
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 4: they're they're like the deepest poetry you know that speaks

617
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 4: to my heart unlike any other. So you know, that's

618
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 4: that's that's that's that's that's the essence of it. I

619
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 4: guess that's that's it. In a nutshell, Well, that's that's great.

620
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 2: I mean, what a what a fascinating journey to to

621
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 2: Columbia and then back to occupy and and meeting this guy.

622
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it's it's and it's not the

623
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 2: route that I think somebody would would necessarily uh uh

624
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: think of in terms of, you know, discovering a higher

625
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 2: spiritual plane. But that's that's really fascinating.

626
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: If you are inspired by today's episode, please join us

627
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: in supporting six degrees dot org by texting the word

628
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: Bacon to seven zero seven zero seven zero. Your gift

629
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: empowers us to continue to produce programs that highlight the

630
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: incredible work of everyday heroes, well also enabling us to

631
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: provide essential resources to those that need it the most.

632
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: Once again, text b a co m to seven zero

633
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: seven zero seven zero or visit six degrees dot org

634
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: to learn more.

635
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 2: The Tahira Justice Center secular organization founded on the principles

636
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 2: of the Bahigh faith, and we want to h be

637
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 2: part of what we're doing here with this podcast is

638
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 2: not only talking to famous and talented people like yourself,

639
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: but also shedding light on the people behind the scenes

640
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 2: who are involved in the organizations that the famous people

641
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 2: care about. So I want to bring in from the

642
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 2: Tahira Justice Center, Anusha Sinai, who is the director managing it.

643
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 2: What is your actual title and thank you for being

644
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: here with us.

645
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 3: You welcome. My official title is the managing Attorney for

646
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 3: the Greater DC Baltimore Regional Team.

647
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,959
Speaker 2: Gotcha, Okay, tell me how you got involved and what

648
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 2: is the work that the Justice Center is doing currently?

649
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 3: Or The Taire Justice Center is a national nonprofit organization.

650
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 3: It's a bahaih inspired organization whose mission is to deliver

651
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 3: holistic services to immigrant survivors of gender based violence. And

652
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 3: so we provide not only legal services, but social services,

653
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 3: policy advocacy, and our whole plethora of basic needs that

654
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:38,959
Speaker 3: our clients may need.

655
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 2: That's that's amazing and is ours? Is this? Are does?

656
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 2: Are there people of the High Faith all over the world? Yes?

657
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 3: Yes, although it is an organization inspired by the Bahai

658
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 3: Faith and not all the staff members are b High

659
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 3: but yes, the Bahai Faith, it's a worldwide religion. You

660
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 3: find behind members all over the world. I myself, I'm

661
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 3: originally from Italy and I grew up in the Bahiah

662
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 3: community in Italy and the main purpose of the Bahai

663
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 3: faith is unity of mankind, which may appear simplistic in statement,

664
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 3: but it comes through the implementation of a variety of

665
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 3: socioeconomic principles that are based in spiritual teachings for the

666
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 3: betterment of humanity, and the equality between the genders is

667
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 3: one of them, hence the inspiration for the organization.

668
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: Well, certainly equality in terms of gender worldwide is a

669
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a it's a it's a If it's

670
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 2: a big problem here in the States, then you know

671
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 2: that it's a huge problem many other places in the world.

672
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 2: And and so what what specifically in what specific countries

673
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: are are are you are you focused on or is

674
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 2: it immigrants to the States that are that are mostly

675
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 2: focused on.

676
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, So all our clients are mostly here in the

677
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 3: United States. They come from all parts of the world.

678
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 3: The majority, if you're looking for specific percentages, the majority

679
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 3: of our percentages are from areas in Central America, South America,

680
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 3: and Sub Sahara Africa. But we do have a great

681
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 3: diverse demographic in terms of geographical coverage.

682
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 2: Now, if if someone comes to the States, what are

683
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 2: the main problems that they faced in terms of being

684
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 2: immigrant in terms of gender and inequality.

685
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 3: So most immigrants, and I will include myself in it,

686
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 3: don't usually leave their home country out of volition unless

687
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 3: there is something else, you know, ahead for our client.

688
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 3: Most of the times, unfortunately, or situations of violence and

689
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 3: war zones and forceful departure. And that's that's mostly the

690
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 3: experience of the clients that we serve when they come

691
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 3: to this country. Apart from the expected barriers such as

692
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 3: language systems, understanding exactly where to go and how to

693
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 3: go and what to get, even just disparity in terms

694
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 3: of food access and so forth, they come in with

695
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,800
Speaker 3: a great deal of fear towards law enforcement, for example,

696
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 3: and then and they have to face a great deal

697
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 3: of stereotypes, a great deal of biases, a great deal

698
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 3: of prejudice, and oftentimes they find themselves in situation where,

699
00:37:55,239 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 3: out of fear, will not report on instances of islands

700
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 3: that may have occurred here in the United States, whether

701
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 3: while in detention, in immigration detention, or while in the

702
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 3: United States more generally.

703
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 2: You know, Penn, I want to just a pivot to

704
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 2: you for a second. And you know, when I hear

705
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 2: about this kind of work, I think to myself, there's

706
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: a lot of things that you could be doing rather

707
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 2: than supporting an organization like this, A lot of things

708
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 2: that probably would be an easier lift. Well, the easiest

709
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 2: lift of all is not having any point of view

710
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 2: outside of just trying to get a gig and you know,

711
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,439
Speaker 2: like doing your work and as you said, going home

712
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 2: and being an exhausted Is there something outside of the

713
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 2: behind connection which clearly led you to this organization that

714
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 2: you just feel is important in terms of getting involved

715
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 2: with something outside of this crazy industry that we had.

716
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, so I'll try and be succinct, and

717
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 4: I'll try and start with the small and then go

718
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 4: to the big. So I mean, I wouldn't have become

719
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 4: so intimately involved with the organization if it wasn't for

720
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 4: my friendship with the founder, lay Miller Muro. She you know,

721
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 4: we we weren't close friends, but we had met and

722
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 4: we had a lot of mutual friends and through.

723
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 2: The Bahai community. And so so what happened was she.

724
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 4: What in the fall of I don't know, twenty eighteen

725
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 4: or twenty nineteen, she she asked me if I could

726
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 4: help basically amplify the story of one person, one client

727
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 4: of theirs, in particular, and yeah, yeah, so I'll try.

728
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 4: I mean again, it like it aknew she can help

729
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 4: me because there are so many particulars about each person's

730
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 4: story that are so connected to these really deep systemic

731
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 4: in justice in our country's legal system that you know, again,

732
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 4: I'm trying to be brief and connect the big to

733
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 4: the small. It's very very confusing sometimes, but basically, like

734
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 4: what Anusia said about the ba High Faith, you know,

735
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 4: you asked, how much does it extend just beyond that generally?

736
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 4: So I mean, if you're thinking about the oneness of

737
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,879
Speaker 4: humanity as a simple concept but having a really really

738
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 4: complex and kind of unimaginable reality as we try to

739
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 4: bring it into reality. So like one of the things

740
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 4: that I think is represents that spirit is that when

741
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 4: you're trying to do something, it can't just really be arbitrary.

742
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 4: There has to be some kind of real motivation to

743
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 4: do it, you know, like like where does And actually

744
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,240
Speaker 4: I think in this case, there were two things.

745
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 2: For me.

746
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,399
Speaker 4: It was that I was on a show perpetrating such

747
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 4: egregious cases of male violence, you know, usually on women,

748
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 4: and then I had this friendship. So that's the big

749
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 4: and the small. It's like this big, giant social thing,

750
00:40:58,040 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 4: and then the small is oh, I had a friend,

751
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 4: you know, I actually had a friend who did this work,

752
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 4: and she was a woman, and she could speak to

753
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 4: it and and and she could really bring me into

754
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 4: the work like broadly and socially why it's important. And

755
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 4: then also I witnessed kind of just firsthand, even through

756
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 4: these glimpses, like what it actually looked like on the ground.

757
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 4: I mean, I met this woman, Vilma Carrello, who who

758
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 4: was in detention in Georgia. She was separated from her daughter.

759
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 4: Her daughter was born in the States, so her daughter

760
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 4: was a US citizen.

761
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 2: Where was she speaking?

762
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 4: I want to make sure this is accurate, but Guatemala, Guatemala, ounkin.

763
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 4: I'm again, it's been a long time since I since

764
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 4: I did the specific work with Velma, So you know,

765
00:41:55,200 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 4: again the yeahs as I as. I maybe stumbled some

766
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 4: of the details, but I mean the the the challenge. No,

767
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 4: I've only met Vilma once, Like I've only met Vilma once,

768
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 4: and then she was behind behind plexiglass. She was she

769
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 4: was she was being detained, you know, basically for just

770
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 4: coming here. And I would actually let Anusha speak to

771
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 4: like this really difficult kind of when people come here

772
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 4: in a position like Vilma's, they're immediately placed in a

773
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 4: in a in a in a position of impossibility. They

774
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 4: have a genuine, very simple personal need for help, and

775
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:50,439
Speaker 4: they deserve that because they're human. And and actually, even

776
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,760
Speaker 4: though there shouldn't be some kind of merit based ranking,

777
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 4: if you want to start trying to do that, you know,

778
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 4: like some kind of moral ranking system, as Innu she

779
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 4: was saying, a lot of times, people who are leaving

780
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 4: here are doing something heroic. Sorry, people coming here are

781
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 4: doing something heroic. They're leaving a home they don't want

782
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,720
Speaker 4: to leave, they're being forced. They're often women and children,

783
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 4: you know, and they're doing actually the thing that we

784
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 4: tell stories about, you know, like they're they're doing they're

785
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 4: doing a hero's role. And then, of course, in our

786
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 4: in our sort of polarized political system, they get either

787
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 4: painted by one side as as villains or you know,

788
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 4: unfortunately kind of objectified by the other side trying to

789
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 4: sort of use them as talking points and and and

790
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 4: the average person trying to like understand the reality here

791
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 4: and like do anything meaningful is kind of lost in

792
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 4: this polarized, divisive debate. Sure, yeah, you know what I

793
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,399
Speaker 4: mean and like, and so what does it actually all mean,

794
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 4: what does actually look like?

795
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 2: What can I actually do?

796
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 4: And so as as a person who's famous, I have

797
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 4: this uncommon ability to bring it to something just by

798
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 4: literally pointing to it or being part of it or

799
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 4: posting or something, you know. And so that's why Ley

800
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 4: invited me into this work. Lady Millnermuro, the founder of

801
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 4: the Taha Justice Center, she she invited me into into

802
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 4: just to help amplify the story of this one person,

803
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 4: to help her reunite her with her daughter.

804
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: And we did.

805
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 4: And that's you know something I'm I'm actually.

806
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 2: Really proud of.

807
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 4: And I want to highlight that I played a very

808
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 4: small role, you know, I suppose it in some manner,

809
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 4: a pivotal role, but very very small.

810
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of roles to play, Anusia, I want I'm

811
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 2: interested in your point of view because this is a

812
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 2: little bit what we talk about on this podcast Visa

813
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 2: v the use of celebrity in terms of amplifying things

814
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 2: that are important and the work that you're doing. Do

815
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 2: you see any kind of a direct connection there, Yes.

816
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 3: Yes I do, and I don't know necessarily if it

817
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 3: is always a positive or an negative right. Because let

818
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 3: me let me just take one step back. There are

819
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,280
Speaker 3: laws in the United States that allow for an immigrant

820
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 3: who's coming to this country to seek a path towards

821
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 3: justice and safety. Right, so those laws exist. It's not

822
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 3: like our work is shooting in the dark and trying

823
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 3: to make a case out of something that's not actually codified.

824
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 3: The unfortunate reality is that the system is oppressive to

825
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 3: begin with. This system is built to create this othering

826
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 3: in all of these individuals that come to the United

827
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 3: States to seek justice and safety. So when we are

828
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 3: partnering with voices such as yours and such as Pens,

829
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 3: it amplifies the rights that already exist in this country

830
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 3: and the pathways that exist in this country, and that

831
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 3: the government of this country actually creative for the purpose

832
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 3: of justice. We have forgotten what that looks like in

833
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 3: when we go and implement it, because we have been

834
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 3: distracted by focusing on the immigrant that fulfills our thought

835
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 3: of what they should look like, they should behave like

836
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 3: they should come here for. And so to have powerful

837
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 3: partnership like celebrities like yourself and pen truly is allowing

838
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 3: us to go in with a huge magnifying glass and

839
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 3: say no, no, wait a second, let's go back to

840
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 3: the original intent behind these laws, behind these opportunities, and

841
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:48,280
Speaker 3: let's afford all human beings a fair chance and not

842
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,359
Speaker 3: not based on politics and rhetorics that may be going

843
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 3: on at the time.

844
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 2: Tell me what it was that you brought you specifically

845
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,240
Speaker 2: to this work, this kind of work.

846
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 3: That's a very interesting and very deep question. I always

847
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 3: felt since the age of five that my purpose was.

848
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 3: When I was five, my word was defenser, like I

849
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 3: needed to defend, and I was very much aware of

850
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 3: what my surroundings were. I myself, I am a ba hih.

851
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 3: You heard me earlier saying that I was born and

852
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 3: raised in Italy, but I have nothing Italian in my blood.

853
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 3: I'm fully Iranian. My parents are Iranian immigrants into Italy.

854
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 3: So I think from from the very beginning, that's what

855
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 3: connected me with this idea of sharing the immigrant experience

856
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 3: in a way that elevates the challenges and the the

857
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 3: the need to be seen as a whole person and

858
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 3: not just as part of a person. And so that

859
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 3: connected me with the work of the Tahari Justice Center.

860
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 2: And what is what what is the to her Justice

861
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 2: Center working on right now, what's the is there is

862
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 2: there some specific program that you're deep in.

863
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I'm sure you're aware that we touch on

864
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 3: various programs that have the gender based component. Right, So,

865
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 3: we work on the under the violence again swim and at,

866
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 3: we work with trafficking survivors, We work with children who

867
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 3: arrived to this country and need that pathway to justice.

868
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 3: And then a couple of years ago, as we all

869
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 3: watched the crisis in Afghanistan, we saw also the influx

870
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 3: of immigrants from that area of the world, and so

871
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:46,280
Speaker 3: we created a specific project that allowed for a quick

872
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 3: and efficient answer to the need of our funds that

873
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 3: were coming into the United States and created the Afghan

874
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 3: Asylum Project, and that in the last couple of weeks,

875
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 3: we finally are seeing successful stories come out of some

876
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 3: of those applications and our first wins for those asilum cases,

877
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 3: which is wonderful.

878
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 2: That's amazing, that's awesome. Are there ways that people listening

879
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 2: here can specifically help or get.

880
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,839
Speaker 3: Involved many ways, many many ways. But as we are

881
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 3: in the twenty first century, you know, social platforms are

882
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 3: the best way to gather information. We are present on

883
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 3: Facebook and Instagram, and Twitter. Our website Tahari dot org

884
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 3: is a wonderful opportunity for individuals to learn more and

885
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 3: find the best way that works for them to contribute.

886
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:42,359
Speaker 3: If anyone is moved to provide financial donations, that is

887
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 3: certainly welcomed and always always appreciated.

888
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to spell it out because I want I

889
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 2: don't want anybody to miss this. T A H I

890
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:59,280
Speaker 2: are i h dot org? Is that correct?

891
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 3: That is correct?

892
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 2: Okay, I want to make sure that that's there and

893
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 2: on and on that on that site, I'm sure you

894
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 2: can find all of the various tags for whatever, Twitter, Instagram,

895
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,760
Speaker 2: all the other socials right, yes, exactly, and different ways

896
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: to uh to help out, donate, get information and uh listen,

897
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 2: I want to thank you both so much for being

898
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 2: here today. Uh, it's it's great to connect with you, Penn.

899
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm shocked at our paths haven't crossed until now,

900
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 2: but I really enjoyed the you know, having this conversation

901
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 2: with you. Than thank you for having me and the

902
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,919
Speaker 2: news you. Please keep up the good work and it's

903
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 2: it's it's very it's very valuable and important and uh,

904
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 2: thanks a lot for being here. Hey, guys, thanks for

905
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 2: listening to another episode of six Degrees. If you want

906
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 2: to learn about the ta Hera Justice Center, just hit

907
00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 2: to their website at the tai Hera Justice Center dot com.

908
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,320
Speaker 2: You can find all the links in our show notes.

909
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 2: If you like what you hear, make sure you subscribe

910
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 2: to the show and tune into the rest of our episodes.

911
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 2: You can find it on iHeartRadio, Apple podcast, or wherever

912
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 2: you get your podcasts.