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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how's it going.

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Speaker 1: It's going well. Normally we have lots of fun shit chat,

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Speaker 1: but I think we're just going to jump right into

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Speaker 1: this story. What do you think?

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: We are in late eighteen hundreds and we're going to

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Speaker 1: be in Iowa and I have never been to Iowa,

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Speaker 1: but I would love to go to Iowa. Have you

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Speaker 1: been to Iowa? Are their murderers in Iowa?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I actually did a case in Iowa. Was Williamsburg

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Speaker 2: double homicide of a couple at a holiday inn. They

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Speaker 2: were hatcheted to death in their bed. Oh my gosh, horrible,

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Speaker 2: horrible case. And this was the very first episode of

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Speaker 2: my TV show, The DNA of Murder. And I'm confident

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Speaker 2: that two other cases, one in Illinois and one down

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Speaker 2: in Mississippi, or I think it's Mississippi where there are

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Speaker 2: two single men hatcheted to death in their hotel rooms.

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Speaker 2: I'm confident it's the same offender and pretty confident I

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Speaker 2: know who that offender is. Just haven't been able to

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Speaker 2: get the evidence to prove the case.

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Speaker 1: We talk about that all the time with you, where

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Speaker 1: you end up feeling like you have such a strong

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Speaker 1: feeling about it and then there's just not enough evidence.

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Speaker 1: We talked about that with the Golden State killer case too,

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Speaker 1: where you were, you know, you were leaning towards a suspect,

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Speaker 1: and then when the DNA comes back, it doesn't match.

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Speaker 1: So I know how frustrating that can be for you.

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Speaker 2: It is, but I better pull out a notepad here

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Speaker 2: and start taking notes as you as you tell me

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Speaker 2: about this eighteen hundreds case in Iowa.

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Speaker 1: Time to head to Iowa. Okay, let's go ahead and

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Speaker 1: set the scene. The center of this story is the

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Speaker 1: Elkins family and they are in Elk Township, which is

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Speaker 1: in northeast Iowa. And they are a farming family, very

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Speaker 1: typical farming family. We're in eighteen eighty nine, summertime, eighteen

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Speaker 1: eighty nine, very rural, and this is our stomping ground

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Speaker 1: eighteen Yes, can you believe you're I've I've been saying

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Speaker 1: this about you. Your stomping ground is eighteen hundreds, rural community.

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Speaker 1: This is where these are our bread and butter stories.

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Speaker 1: I feel like, don't you feel like we come to

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Speaker 1: these stories sometimes.

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Speaker 2: They do seem to come up quite a bit, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I think part of it though, is kind of

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Speaker 2: the lack of density with the residents. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: offenders recognize that they have space in order to commit

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Speaker 2: the crimes and relatively low risk for witnesses to see them.

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Speaker 1: I think that's true. And you know, we end up

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Speaker 1: with very few witnesses. We have some ear witnesses sometimes,

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Speaker 1: but these cases can be pretty frustrating. Okay, well let's

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Speaker 1: get into this one. So this is a very quiet

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Speaker 1: part of the Midwest, as we said before, and this

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Speaker 1: is the morning of Wednesday, July seventeenth, and something really

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Speaker 1: unsettling happens to a farmer who knows the Elkins family.

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Speaker 1: So that morning he sees it's a guy named John Porter,

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Speaker 1: and he sees an eleven year old local boy who

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Speaker 1: is one of the members of the Elkins family. His

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Speaker 1: name is John Wesley Elkins. His dad's name is John,

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Speaker 1: and he goes by Wesley. So he is driving his

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Speaker 1: family's horse drawn buggy and he's heading down a nearby

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Speaker 1: dirt road totally covered in blood. The driving the buggy

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Speaker 1: part is an alarming at first, I thought, you know,

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Speaker 1: knee jerky action is an eleven year old out there

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Speaker 1: driving on a country road. They absolutely would have known how,

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Speaker 1: of course, how to drive a horse and buggy. He's

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Speaker 1: down there driving this horse and buggy. He's covered in blood.

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Speaker 1: As Wesley gets closer to John Porter, the neighbor, John

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Speaker 1: can also see that Wesley has a companion. It's his

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Speaker 1: one year old half sister whose name is Nelly, and

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Speaker 1: she's lying on the seat beside him, so she seems

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Speaker 1: to be fine. He is covered in blood and really

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Speaker 1: having a difficult time. He slows down the horse and

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Speaker 1: buggy and John Porter says what's happening, and Wesley says

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Speaker 1: that somebody broke into the family's house and shot his

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Speaker 1: father John and pounded to death his stepmother Hattie. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so Wesley was on his way with his little sister

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Speaker 1: to his grandfather's house to get help. So there's a

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Speaker 1: lot to unpack here already. You don't have very much information,

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Speaker 1: I know, but just this scene must have been terrifying.

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Speaker 1: Of this little boy covered in blood. He's a small kid.

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Speaker 1: I'll show you a picture of him later. He survives

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Speaker 1: this attack along with his one year old, and he

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Speaker 1: has the presence of mind to take her, put her

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Speaker 1: in this horse and buggy and get to safety. So

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Speaker 1: that's where we are at this point.

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Speaker 2: And no other siblings inside the house. This is the

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Speaker 2: entirety of the family, the two kids and the parents. Okay, yep.

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Speaker 1: Eleven year old, a one year old, and then the parents.

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Speaker 1: So you know this is alarming of course, to John

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Speaker 1: Porter and an intruder. He's very specific, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: he's saying he shot his dad and then he said

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Speaker 1: that the intruder pounded his stepmother to death. So this

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Speaker 1: is very upsetting, of course, and I think would have

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Speaker 1: been even more unusual than you would think in this

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Speaker 1: area of the Midwest. So you know, do you want

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Speaker 1: to continue or do you have any other thoughts on that?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, this description of Wesley being covered in blood,

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Speaker 2: you know, that's the term that's often used. And of course,

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Speaker 2: from my vantage point is I want to see, you know,

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Speaker 2: how much blood, what kinds of patterns are present, you know,

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Speaker 2: under the circumstances as you've told him up to now

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering, well, why does Wesley have any blood on him?

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Speaker 2: It was he close to his step mom when she's

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Speaker 2: being bludgeoned. Absolutely, you know you can get blood spatter

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Speaker 2: coming up onto the kid. Can you imagine how traumatic

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Speaker 2: this would be for an eleven year old boy? You know,

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Speaker 2: of course you indicate that the dad, John Senior, is shot.

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Speaker 2: You know what is he shot with? If he's just shot,

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Speaker 2: let's say, with a handgun in the chest, that's really

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Speaker 2: not a very bloody scene at all, Versus was he

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Speaker 2: shot in the head with a shotgun? And then now

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Speaker 2: you can see where could have a lot of his

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Speaker 2: father's blood on him? Or after his parents are killed,

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Speaker 2: does Wesley go up and interact with their bodies? Mom?

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Speaker 2: Are you okay? Something like that? And now he's getting

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Speaker 2: blood on himself, and at this point in time, we

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Speaker 2: don't know if Wesley himself has any bleeding injuries. Obviously

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Speaker 2: I need more information, but right now I'm starting to

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Speaker 2: just kind of figure out the dynamic space on what

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Speaker 2: you've told me.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot more information to come. So John Porter,

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Speaker 1: the neighbor the farmer, gets his adult son and they

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Speaker 1: go to the Elkins home. So they make sure that

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Speaker 1: Wesley and his one year old sister are secured, and

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Speaker 1: they decide they're going to go to the house, which

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Speaker 1: seems like a scary idea to me, but you know what,

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Speaker 1: they need to go investigate. I guess they find Wesley's parents,

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Speaker 1: just as he said, they're dead in the bedroom. John

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Speaker 1: sends his son to go to the police, and this

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Speaker 1: is what the police eventually find and what John Porter finds.

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Speaker 1: There is John Wesley, Sr. Who is forty three. He

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Speaker 1: is lying on his bed with his head resting on

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Speaker 1: his pillow, and he has been shot once through the

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Speaker 1: left eye. It also looks right now that he's been

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Speaker 1: beaten with some sort of blunt instrument on the left

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Speaker 1: side of his head and on his forehead. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: we have a good source book that Marin used. It

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Speaker 1: was a woman named Patricia Bryan and her co author

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Speaker 1: Thomas Wolfe, wrote a book called The Plea. In the book,

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Speaker 1: they described his face as destroyed. So it sounds like

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Speaker 1: badly beaten, but right, I mean, we need to know

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Speaker 1: more about the gun to see gosh through his eye.

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Speaker 1: I mean that is just always so gruesome to me.

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Speaker 1: Is that someone who intentionally did that or missed or

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Speaker 1: when you see that kind of an injury, what does

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Speaker 1: that usually mean the person was the victim was moving around?

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Speaker 2: No, you know, there's the evaluation of the distance that

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Speaker 2: the gun was at the time of the shot. If

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Speaker 2: it is a more distant shot, did the sh shooter

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Speaker 2: truly intended to shoot through the eye or it's just

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Speaker 2: generally shooting at the at the head and it just

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Speaker 2: happed the bullet happened to pass through the eye. However,

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Speaker 2: if you have let's say a very close range shot,

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Speaker 2: now you've got let's say stippling from gunpowder, or you

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Speaker 2: have sooting or or even depending on the caliber of

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Speaker 2: the weapon, you can even get gases going into the

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Speaker 2: skull space the orbital space, and now you can get

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Speaker 2: rupture of the skin showing it's a contact wound. Now,

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Speaker 2: if that is what's going on, then yes, I would

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Speaker 2: say the offender, the shooter intentionally shot John through the eye.

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Speaker 2: So right now, absent that type of information, it's at

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Speaker 2: this point, it's just the shot went through his his

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Speaker 2: left eye. Of course, I'm very interested in the bludgeting

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Speaker 2: because you know what what weapon was used to bludgeon

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Speaker 2: John as he laid there. It sounds like he's asleep

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Speaker 2: and possibly never even realized that he was about to die.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you about the other body, which would

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Speaker 1: be Hattie. So she was twenty three, twenty years younger

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Speaker 1: than her husband, his second wife. John's body is partially

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Speaker 1: covered by Hattie's body. So in this book the plea

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Speaker 1: she's described as this is an interesting description, bent backward

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Speaker 1: across the bed in an unnatural position with her face

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Speaker 1: toward the ceiling and her feet on the floor. She

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Speaker 1: had been beaten so violently with this blunt object that

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Speaker 1: her skull and her jawbone were broken, and the backs

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Speaker 1: of her legs are severely bruised. And then I have

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Speaker 1: information about blood throughout the room. But those are the

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Speaker 1: two things about the victims. So what do you think

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Speaker 1: about that she's kind of laying on top of him.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like well, the position of her body being

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Speaker 2: on top of her husband, John could suggest a sequence

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Speaker 2: in terms of who was attacked first. And of course,

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Speaker 2: an offender recognizing that there's a male likely is going

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Speaker 2: to go out after the biggest threat first. Patty's position

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Speaker 2: is she also asleep and as her husband is, there's

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Speaker 2: a gunshot. She wakes up. Her husband's getting beat by

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Speaker 2: this guy, and now she's trying to get off the bed,

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Speaker 2: and now the offender turns his attention onto her, and

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Speaker 2: then ultimately she collapses backwards onto John. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: think that's one possible scenario, but there's many possible scenarios.

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Speaker 2: At this point. This is where now the blood patterns,

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Speaker 2: her actual injuries. Taking a look at things within the

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Speaker 2: bedroom itself can help inform sort of the sequence of

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Speaker 2: how these victims were attacked. And I'm sure you're going

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Speaker 2: to give me more information coming up.

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Speaker 1: So this is the scene. The rest of the scene

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Speaker 1: in this bedroom, there is blood spatter on the walls

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Speaker 1: and the ceiling pool, blood in the bed sheets and

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Speaker 1: nearby on the floor, and there are small footprints we

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Speaker 1: find out later it's Wesley's footprints because he ran up

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Speaker 1: to see what was going on. He had beer feet

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Speaker 1: that led from the bodies to another bedroom in the house.

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Speaker 1: So the bed in the second bedroom is unmade, and

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Speaker 1: there are spots of blood in its sheets, and at

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Speaker 1: the foot of the bed there is a single barrel

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Speaker 1: rifle which is determined to be one of the murder weapons,

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Speaker 1: and it belongs to the family and it's usually stored

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Speaker 1: in a bedroom where it hangs on the wall. So

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Speaker 1: anybody who's been in this house would have seen this

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Speaker 1: gun there, or I suppose somebody there looking to rob

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Speaker 1: the house could have seen this gun inexplicably on the wall.

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Speaker 1: Using them as a weapon seems odd to me. But

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Speaker 1: what do you think about that?

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Speaker 2: I just I need to clarify. You have the second bedroom,

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Speaker 2: which it doesn't appear that anybody had slept in that.

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Speaker 1: Bed, right, I don't think so?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? And what kind of blood staining was seen? That?

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Speaker 2: Is it blood drips that was leading from the homicide

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Speaker 2: room into the second bedroom.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So there are the footprints that we are later

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Speaker 1: determining our belong to Wesley, that go from the bodies

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Speaker 1: to another bedroom in the house. Where we presume the

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Speaker 1: little girl was, so he was probably checking on her.

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Speaker 1: Then the bed in this second room is unmade, so

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Speaker 1: nobody's slept in there, and there are spots of blood

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Speaker 1: in its sheets, and at the foot of the bed

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Speaker 1: is the rifle. Okay, so no action in that second bedroom.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like a little bit of blood.

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Speaker 2: So there's also sequence information. You said the rifle is

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Speaker 2: the weapon used to shoot John. They confirmed this, probably

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Speaker 2: through some sort of ballistic analysis, I imagine for the

243
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Speaker 2: late eighteen hundreds. The blood drips, Now, this could be

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Speaker 2: the offender. I don't know what kind of weapon was

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Speaker 2: used to do the bludgeoning. Does the offender himself get

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Speaker 2: injured as a result of bludgeoning, because sometimes you're holding

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Speaker 2: on to a victim with your off hand and you're

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Speaker 2: using your other hand to beat that victim, and now

249
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Speaker 2: you're hitting your own hand, and now you have lacerations

250
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Speaker 2: that could cause bleeding. So when the offender moves to

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Speaker 2: the second bedroom and dumps the rifle there, you know,

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Speaker 2: might be the offender's dripped blood. Could it be Wesley,

253
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Speaker 2: You know, Wesley is at this point, I'm not going

254
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Speaker 2: to say I have any suspicions of Wesley at this point.

255
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Speaker 2: But you know, I just want to put that out there.

256
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Speaker 2: He's an eleven year old boy. You know, he can

257
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Speaker 2: shoot a rifle. But I have a hard time seeing

258
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Speaker 2: him beating his mother, you know, being able to physically

259
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Speaker 2: overpower her, unless he's a very robust eleven year old boy,

260
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Speaker 2: right if she's trying to fight back. But Wesley's movements

261
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Speaker 2: are a form of post offense crime scene contamination that

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Speaker 2: we have to take into account. And so is Wesley

263
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Speaker 2: bringing some blood into the second bedroom as he's moving

264
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Speaker 2: through the house. So but right now, that's kind of

265
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Speaker 2: it's interesting that the offenders going into the second bedroom

266
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Speaker 2: and is using the family's own rifle in the shooting

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Speaker 2: of the father.

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Speaker 1: And I can identify the weapon that was used to

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Speaker 1: bludgeon the parents to death. So I'm going to show

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Speaker 1: it to you because I've never heard of this before.

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Speaker 1: So the police are searching, they're trying to find this

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Speaker 1: blunt object. They think they found it. It's a wooden

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Speaker 1: German flail which is used to thresh grain and has

274
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Speaker 1: hairs and dry blood on it, so they think this

275
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Speaker 1: is the weapon. I have a photo of what it

276
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Speaker 1: probably looked like but let me just tell you. It's

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Speaker 1: about two feet long and about three inches wide. And

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Speaker 1: they found it hidden under grass about twenty feet from

279
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Speaker 1: the home's back entrance. So somebody hid it. So the

280
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Speaker 1: killer or killers didn't hide the rifle, but did hide

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Speaker 1: this object. And so I can I can you want

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Speaker 1: to show you that photo or what do you think?

283
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Speaker 2: Absolutely no, this is not a fool.

284
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Speaker 1: If this isn't good enough for you, Paul Holes, then

285
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Speaker 1: I will find a different photo, but it better be

286
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,000
Speaker 1: good enough. Okay, there it is. Now that's not a

287
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,040
Speaker 1: very it doesn't show the full thing, but I mean,

288
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Speaker 1: is that clear enough for you?

289
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,240
Speaker 2: Okay, that's interesting. So in this photograph, yeah, this is

290
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Speaker 2: very different than what I was expecting. It appears that

291
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Speaker 2: there are two wooden I'm not sure i'd call them handles.

292
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Speaker 1: Like rods, right, we're right, Yeah.

293
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,200
Speaker 2: I think rod is a good descriptor. So two wooden

294
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,920
Speaker 2: rods that are joined together at one end with what

295
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:31,120
Speaker 2: appears to be leather strapping that has been secured to

296
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,120
Speaker 2: each of these rods. Now, I'm not sure how this

297
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,520
Speaker 2: weapon is. I mean, in some ways, it's it almost

298
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Speaker 2: approximates you know, your your numb chucks for martial arts,

299
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,200
Speaker 2: just like a very very old style. I don't know

300
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Speaker 2: how that's actually used in the threshing operation, but the

301
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,080
Speaker 2: offender could use this a variety of ways. He could

302
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,800
Speaker 2: be holding on to both rods at the same time

303
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,760
Speaker 2: and it's now just a singular object in some ways

304
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,720
Speaker 2: being used to bludgeon the parents. Or he could be

305
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,639
Speaker 2: holding just one rod more like your numb chuck style,

306
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,120
Speaker 2: and now whipping that second rod, which of course would

307
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,760
Speaker 2: generate a tremendous amount of velocity. The injuries to the

308
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:17,480
Speaker 2: you know, the parents would possibly be able to demonstrate

309
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,760
Speaker 2: how the offender held this weapon, the fact that they're

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Speaker 2: finding blood and hair adhering to this. I mean, from

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Speaker 2: my perspective, there's no question that this was the bludgeting weapon.

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Speaker 1: Why would you use two different weapons? You've got one shot.

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Speaker 1: We're assuming whoever this is tried to take down John

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Speaker 1: first because he's the male. He shoots him through the eye,

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Speaker 1: so why then not shoot Hattie? Or is it this

316
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Speaker 1: is improvising? I mean, what would have happened here?

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Speaker 2: Well, first, right now we don't know based on the information.

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Speaker 2: The exact sequence was John initially beat unconscious, and possibly killed,

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Speaker 2: and then the offender found the rifle and decided I

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Speaker 2: needed to shoot him in order to finish him off.

321
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Speaker 2: But I think another possibility is the offender shoots John

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Speaker 2: and starts to beat him, and now Patty is either

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Speaker 2: trying to escape or is coming to her husband's rescue.

324
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Speaker 2: Now the offender a rifle is horrible for close quarters combat.

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Speaker 2: I mean you could see where Let's say the offender

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Speaker 2: shoots John, Patty wakes up and now she's grabbing the

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Speaker 2: rifle and she's now struggling with the offender over the rifle.

328
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Speaker 2: And right now, I'm just going to assume single offender,

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Speaker 2: this offender has this bludgeoning weapon, this flail, that he

330
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Speaker 2: has to turn to to start beating Paddy off and

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Speaker 2: then ultimately killing her with the flail. So I think

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Speaker 2: that that's another possible scenario. Of course, now if we

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Speaker 2: add a second offender into the mix, then we have

334
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Speaker 2: different dynamics going on.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you how this investigation goes. There

336
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Speaker 1: is a coroner's inquest, and Wesley's call up first because

337
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,440
Speaker 1: he's the only witness. So I'll tell you. I'll lay

338
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Speaker 1: out what he says happened. He says that on Tuesday night,

339
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Speaker 1: so the night before, hours before John and Hattie were killed,

340
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Speaker 1: Wesley had eaten dinner and then his dad told him,

341
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Speaker 1: don't sleep in the house tonight. You need to sleep

342
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,159
Speaker 1: in the barn. Wesley was actually happy to do it

343
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Speaker 1: because it was, you know, late July.

344
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Speaker 2: Was this a form of punishment or was this just

345
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Speaker 2: getting him out of the house for one reason or another? Right?

346
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Speaker 1: I think it was an eleven year old boy, you know,

347
00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:30,879
Speaker 1: let's get out of the house because you know they

348
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,359
Speaker 1: have a one year old there who probably has trouble sleeping.

349
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Speaker 1: It didn't seem like a form of punishment, no, And

350
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Speaker 1: Wesley was happy to do it because he said the

351
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,439
Speaker 1: barn was a lot cooler at night than being in

352
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Speaker 1: that house. This is not a massive house. So around

353
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,399
Speaker 1: eight o'clock that night he heads out to the barn,

354
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Speaker 1: and the barn is about two hundred and fifty feet

355
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Speaker 1: from the house. Should Wesley be able to hear things

356
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,520
Speaker 1: that are happening, like the sound of a rifle going

357
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,200
Speaker 1: off or he says later on, he heard a scream?

358
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,439
Speaker 1: But is this is this? Should can he be an

359
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 1: ear witness in this case? Do you think?

360
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Speaker 2: Well? I would say, you know, with the gunshot, you

361
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 2: know most certainly within two hundred and fifty feet, if

362
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,359
Speaker 2: you know it's you don't have a storm going on,

363
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 2: or it's successively windy. I mean that that type of

364
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,320
Speaker 2: sound carries a great distance. You know, I always having

365
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,160
Speaker 2: played sports growing up, you know, when you start talking

366
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,200
Speaker 2: about these these distances, I kind of relate these distances

367
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,920
Speaker 2: to the various sporting activities I've been in. And of course,

368
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,080
Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty feet, you know, that's close to

369
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Speaker 2: three hundred feet, which is the length of a football field. Okay,

370
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,480
Speaker 2: so you know two hundred fifty feet. I mean it

371
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,400
Speaker 2: is a good distance, but it's not you know, something

372
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Speaker 2: in which you know, if if a woman were to scream,

373
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Speaker 2: that scream would fall off before somebody that distance away

374
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Speaker 2: would would hear it. So you know, then we have

375
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 2: you know the structures, right, you have the house where

376
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,359
Speaker 2: the homicide occurred. You've got Wesley who is in a barn.

377
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,880
Speaker 2: You know that's going to impact the acoustics. So it's

378
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,680
Speaker 2: hard to say if he sure would be an ear witness,

379
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,880
Speaker 2: but yeah, you know, I mean he's I probably wouldn't

380
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 2: let my eleven year old son be sleeping out in

381
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Speaker 2: a barn, you know, two hundred fifty feet away from me,

382
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,400
Speaker 2: but different time, different era.

383
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,200
Speaker 1: So what Wesley says is that he went to sleep,

384
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,200
Speaker 1: it was nice and cool. He woke up in the

385
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 1: middle of the night after hearing what he described as

386
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 1: a woman's scream, so this would be his stepmother Hattie.

387
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 1: He was petrified, as any eleven year old would be,

388
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 1: and he waited. He thought about thirty minutes before he

389
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,600
Speaker 1: decided to go ahead and check in on the family.

390
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 1: He walks over to the house and that's when he

391
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,880
Speaker 1: sees his parents dead, and that's why his footprints are

392
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,639
Speaker 1: in the blood. He says that his little sister, Nelly

393
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Speaker 1: was in the bed with his parents, and he said

394
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Speaker 1: she was just wailing, crying as hard as she could,

395
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 1: covered in their blood, but that she was not He

396
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 1: checked and she was not physically harmed, and later on

397
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,919
Speaker 1: the doctor said she wasn't harmed. He said that he

398
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:02,439
Speaker 1: picked her up and he took her to the second

399
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 1: bedroom and he lit the lamp on the nearby chest,

400
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 1: and then he changed her into some clean clothes. I

401
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 1: don't know what kind of like, you know, caretaking mode

402
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 1: he locked into, but I think that's the explanation for

403
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 1: the bits of blood. And that's his bedroom, and that's

404
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 1: why the bed was unmade is because he was in

405
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 1: the barn. He never slept in that bed. So I'm

406
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 1: just trying to help you a little bit with the

407
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 1: sequence of why things seemed to be kind of laying

408
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,440
Speaker 1: out the way they are. He said that he looked

409
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,679
Speaker 1: at the clock and it was about three thirty and

410
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 1: that's when he decided to go ahead and take the

411
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 1: horse and buggy and go find help. And he drove

412
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 1: a long way and then he ran into John Porter,

413
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 1: and then we know the rest of the story.

414
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 2: Okay, So if Wesley is telling the truth, then what

415
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 2: I mentioned before this post offense crime scene contamination, his movements.

416
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 2: He's basically detailing movements that are accounting for this blood evidence.

417
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 2: It's interesting that did he make a statement that he

418
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: found the rifle in the homicide room and moved the

419
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 2: rifle into his bedroom.

420
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 1: He does not say anything about the rifle, and that

421
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 1: could have been just sort of like it got lost

422
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 1: in the notes, or he doesn't address it at all.

423
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,439
Speaker 1: I think he was just so much more maybe he

424
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 1: didn't even notice it. He was so traumatized by seeing

425
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 1: this bloody scene and trying to deal with his little

426
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: sister who's screaming. You know, I don't know he didn't

427
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: notice it.

428
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 2: So him hearing Patty scream that at least tells me

429
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 2: that Patty became aware that there was an attack underway,

430
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 2: whether it was she screaming when she's being attacked or

431
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 2: she's screaming when she's seeing her husband being killed in

432
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 2: the bed. So there's a little bit of information there.

433
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 2: It appears that John is killed right away, He's taken out,

434
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 2: and then the offender and Patty are interacting. She screams.

435
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 2: Wesley hears that scream. You know, I just have concerns

436
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 2: about the location of the rifle in Wesley's bedroom. You

437
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 2: know that one is that's bugging me a little bit.

438
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 2: You know, why is the offender going in there. Let's

439
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 2: say this is an outside intruder is checking to see

440
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,199
Speaker 2: is Wesley in his bed and then seeing where is

441
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 2: Wesley and then runs off you Wesley at the same time,

442
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 2: And again I'm struggling with Wesley's age to be capable

443
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 2: of committing this crime. But what he's his movement patterns,

444
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: he's putting himself inside the homicide room and he's going

445
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: into his bedroom. He's going to wear the murder One

446
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 2: of the murder weapons is left behind. And do we

447
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: know the flail was that from the family property as well?

448
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: It sounds like it was, Yeah, it was. It was

449
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: not brought in, So yeah, these are found weapons. Having

450
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: it all loaded on the wall I thought was interesting too.

451
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: This gun, I mean unless the perpetrator found bullets somewhere.

452
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: I mean that this was a loaded gun on the wall,

453
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: which doesn't surprise me. For the eighteen hundreds.

454
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 2: Well, no, that's why you do that. Of course you

455
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 2: have display weapons, but also you want to have weapons

456
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 2: that are readily available, and if you have an urgent need,

457
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,479
Speaker 2: you're not sitting there trying to get it loaded up.

458
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 2: You can just grab and go. But the flail, this

459
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 2: sounds like a tool that would be kept out in

460
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 2: something like the barn.

461
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 1: That's true.

462
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 2: Again, I'm struggling with Wesley's age, but I've got some

463
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 2: concerns about how the evidence is starting to stack.

464
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: Up because you're thinking who else would this have been

465
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: and the sequence of a where everything is available, you

466
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 1: are a suspicious man.

467
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 2: Well I have to be, you know, this is where

468
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, Wesley most certainly would know about the rifle.

469
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,959
Speaker 2: You know, he's out in the barn where it seems

470
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 2: like that would be the logical location where the flail

471
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 2: would be found. He's putting himself into the homicide room,

472
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 2: and he's going into his bedroom where the other murder weapon,

473
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 2: the rifle, is found. You know, So there's just some

474
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 2: things there that you know, I'm just going, Okay, his

475
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 2: movements are interesting, These circumstances are interesting. Is he capable

476
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 2: He most certainly is capable of shooting his dad, you know,

477
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 2: with the rifle and once his dad has been shot

478
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 2: in the head, and then being able to use the

479
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 2: flail and do the bludgeoning. Now I'm very curious about,

480
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: you know, like if there were crime scene photos and

481
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,959
Speaker 2: autopsy used to be able to evaluate the offender and

482
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 2: Patty's interactions, and is Wesley capable of doing that? And

483
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 2: then all the blood on Wesley, it sounds like it's

484
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 2: possible he's scooping up his one year old sister. She's bloody. Yeah,

485
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: he's transferring parents' blood onto him. But if he's got

486
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 2: spatter and he's got hair, you know, you know, this

487
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 2: crushed hair that will happen in a bludgeoning on him.

488
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 2: I would have to really evaluate that type of evidence

489
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 2: very closely to see is there an innocent explanation for

490
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: that or does it suggest that he is present at

491
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: the time his parents are being bludgeoned.

492
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: Well, before we get to, you know, any of that

493
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: kind of evidence and suspicions over Wesley, because you know,

494
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: I agree with you, you have to look at everybody.

495
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: Let's talk about other people who have been of interest.

496
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: If it is Wesley, we should at least figure out

497
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 1: what ended up happening, like why would anyone take out

498
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: this level of anger against someone? And by the way,

499
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: nothing stolen from the house, which probably doesn't surprise you

500
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 1: about guessing that the route you're going here.

501
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: Well, I think right now this is just one of

502
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 2: what would probably be many investigative paths to take down.

503
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: And I'm sure you're about to throw me a curveball.

504
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the corners in quest a little

505
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: bit more. Ten of the neighbors testified, and this is

506
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: not you know, these aren't neighbors who witness the crime

507
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: or any of the direct aftermath of it, but they

508
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: do want to talk about the reputation of the Elkins

509
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: family in the community and the relationship between John and Okay,

510
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: so this is I think I was wrong here. John

511
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 1: was on his third marriage, so Hattie, the woman who

512
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: died next to him, was his third wife. So Wesley's

513
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: mother was a woman named Matilda, and this was John's

514
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: second wife. So the neighbors say that Matilda had an

515
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: affair that continued even when she became pregnant with Wesley

516
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: and hated her husband, hated hated John, and she plotted

517
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: his murder on more than one occasion. And the authors

518
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: of this book said that she wanted to poison him,

519
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: she wanted to shoot him, but ultimately she ends up

520
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: just divorcing him, and she runs off with her boyfriend

521
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: to Waterloo, Iowa, which is about seventy miles away from

522
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: the family farm, and she gives birth to Wesley. But

523
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,239
Speaker 1: John gets custody. We don't really know why, but he

524
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: gets Wesley for the first four years of Wesley's life.

525
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: Then John married Hattie. You know, ultimately, I won't kind

526
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: of drag you through this. Matilda ends up dying before

527
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: John does. So Matilda is not a suspect in this.

528
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: His second wife. But I do want to explain a

529
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: little bit about Wesley and how he I think is

530
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: going to feel like he's been shifted around quite a bit.

531
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: But John sounds like this is you know, he's got

532
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: some enemies. He seems capable of having more enemies than

533
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: whoever just broke into this house and killed him.

534
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, the second relationship with Matilda, I mean, the fact

535
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: that she hated John so much that she was plotting

536
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 2: to kill him on multiple occasions. This may provide some

537
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 2: victimology about John, you know, in terms of his personality.

538
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 2: You know, is there anything about Matilda's second husband because

539
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 2: she ended up this boyfriend, she ends up marrying him, yep?

540
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 2: Could Matilda's husband have had any type of motive to

541
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 2: go in and kill John and Hattie? You know? So

542
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,719
Speaker 2: this is just a a little bit more about you know,

543
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: John's past and did it come back and haunt him.

544
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: I don't know if I have any more. You know,

545
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 2: it's really because it when when you start taking a

546
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 2: look at this double homicide. You know, of course you've

547
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: got John's past, You've got his work environment, Who are

548
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 2: in his social circles, what kinds of activities is he involved?

549
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 2: With that could potentially cause somebody to get upset with him.

550
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 2: Of course you have to take a look at Hattie

551
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 2: and you know, is there any reason for somebody to

552
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 2: have motive to kill her? You know, and John just

553
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 2: happens to be eliminated as in that process. So those

554
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: are all parts of the early part of the investigation

555
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: is fleshing out the victimology. So you could figure out, well,

556
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 2: where is this investigation going to go, and then there's

557
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 2: still Wesley.

558
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: Well there is still Wesley, and that is eventually where

559
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: we're going to head because you know, if we're looking

560
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: at suspects. So all this seems like a great one,

561
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: except she ended up dying. Wesley was about seven when

562
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: she died, so Wesley went from being born to being

563
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: sent to his dad for four years back to Matilda.

564
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: So Matilda and her husband had him for three years.

565
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: When Matilda died, not surprisingly, the stepfather ships Wesley back

566
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: over to John and now his new wife Hattie. So

567
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: they didn't want him. They did not want Wesley. He

568
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: was sent to live with John's parents. So Wesley was

569
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: sent with his grandparents. Two years later, when Wesley is nine,

570
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: the grandparents said, you guys, need to take him back.

571
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: So John and Hattie get him back. And at this point,

572
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: you know, he had been enrolled in school. His teachers

573
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: said he was incredibly intelligent. But when John and Hattie

574
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: took him back, he had to stop his education and

575
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: he was put to work at us sawmill, a nine

576
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: year old at a sawmill that his dad owned. So

577
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: this sounds like a bad household, to be honest, It

578
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: sounds abusive. It sounds like John and Hattie, our victims,

579
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: were not very nice to this kid, and I'm not

580
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: going to sugarcoat that. They sound like they were pretty cruel.

581
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: And so that's what we're setting up here, is investigators

582
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,479
Speaker 1: start to think that, based on everything and the evidence

583
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: that you're talking about, that they have on their hands

584
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: an eleven year old who is capable of shooting his

585
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: father and beating both his father and his stepmother to death,

586
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: which is incredible. I can't even believe I'm saying that

587
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: an eleven year old.

588
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: You know the details of Wesley's upbringing, you could see

589
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,959
Speaker 2: where Wesley is constantly being rejected.

590
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: By everybody, his grandparents, everybody, sure.

591
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: And the night that Tuesday night, Wesley is told to

592
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 2: go sleep in the barn. Does he perceive that as

593
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 2: just another reject the one year old you know, who's

594
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 2: his half sister, I guess, you know, she comes into

595
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 2: his life and he sees John and Hattie care for

596
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 2: this one year old, and he's having to labor at

597
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 2: a sawmill. So now I can see where there could

598
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 2: be some hostility within Wesley. He goes out to the barn,

599
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 2: the flail is out there. He is mad, and he

600
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: goes into the house in the middle of the night,

601
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: grabs the rifle, has the flail, shoots Dad, and then

602
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: ends up beating Dad and Mom. You know, this is

603
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 2: where it's you know, what is Wesley's physical capabilities relative

604
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 2: to Mom? Because Mom's positioning the way I'm envisioning it,

605
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: she at least gets up out of the bed. Maybe,

606
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: you know, i'd have to, I'd really want to be

607
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 2: able to evaluate that is Wesley capable with the flail

608
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: of overpowering and ultimately killing Hattie. You know, I think

609
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: it's an eleven year old boy. I mean, he's doing

610
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 2: hard labor. In essence, he's probably very physically fit and

611
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 2: strong for his age. So right now, you know, I

612
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 2: think things are pointing pretty dramatically at Wesley.

613
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: So listen, I'm going to show you some photos and

614
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: I normally would not do this this early. I want

615
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 1: to show you photo of Wesley. It's undated Wesley as

616
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: a young boy, and then there is a photo of

617
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: him when he's a little bit older. I will say

618
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: that this does not look like a big kid to me.

619
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: I know he has functional strength, but this is him

620
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: as a boy. Photo of Wesley Elkins as a young boy,

621
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: published in the newspapers at the time of the crime.

622
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: I don't know how old he is here. Maybe what

623
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: do you think, like six or seven? It's hard to tell.

624
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: Maybe older. I don't know.

625
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this is a I mean I can't

626
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 2: really because all I'm seeing really is his face, and

627
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 2: he does look like a young boy here, right. I

628
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 2: don't you know whether he's six or he's ten in

629
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 2: this photograph. Can't tell. I mean, he's got some sort

630
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 2: of coat on, and it's hard to get to really assess,

631
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 2: you know, what his physique is. You know how mature

632
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: his physique is at this point in time, because I'm

633
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: imagining the eleven year old boy who is doing some

634
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 2: hard labor. You can see some of these kids, you know,

635
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 2: with the boys, you can see them at that age

636
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:29,240
Speaker 2: developing some upper body muscles and they're starting to you know, grow,

637
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 2: whereas other boys at age still look like they're you know,

638
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: five or six years old from a physical physique standpoint.

639
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 2: So that's where you know, I keep going back and

640
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 2: forth about Wesley's age and his physical capability. It's just

641
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 2: everything right now, you know, seems to point that he

642
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 2: possibly is responsible. And if he is, and he obviously

643
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 2: was physically capable of being able to kill his parents.

644
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 1: Let me show you this. This is when he is

645
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: probably about thirty, could be in his twenties. I know

646
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,919
Speaker 1: this is not a good representation. This is a chair

647
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: he's sitting. I mean, you know, he does not look

648
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: like a big person.

649
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 2: To me.

650
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 1: He looks like and I know what you're gonna say,

651
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, especially when you've got a drilline and you're

652
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: you know, a farm boy throwing hal over the place.

653
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: But this looks to me like a slight guy, a

654
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: guy who is not particularly big. He's no Paul Holes.

655
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 2: Let's say that I am not a big guy.

656
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 1: Through a compliment in the middle of a murder case

657
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: for eighteen hundredth.

658
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 2: Oh good guy. No, you know, he he looks like

659
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, he's relatively kind of slight to frame.

660
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 2: He's not a huge man at all, you know, but

661
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 2: it's so hard to say from a photo of him

662
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 2: and as an adult, you know, backtracking to him as

663
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 2: an eleven year old boy, you know, what is his

664
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 2: physical capabilities? And you know part of this is you've

665
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 2: got the flail as a as a bludgeoning weapon that

666
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 2: an eleven year old boy can inflict fatal injuries with

667
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 2: that type of weapon. It's just now, what are the dynamics?

668
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 2: How does he do that to Hattie, who appears to

669
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 2: at least start to engage with him. Yeah, so you know,

670
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 2: it could just be a lucky blow. You know, she

671
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 2: pulls the rifle away and gets into you know, maybe

672
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 2: hand to hand combat with her her son, and Wesley

673
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: is able to just hit her on the head with

674
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 2: the flail and she ends up falling backwards and now

675
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 2: he's on top of her beating her. You know, it's possible.

676
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you a little bit more, just

677
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 1: sort of a general overtone about the family. You know,

678
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: all the neighbors basically said Hattie can be incredibly overbearing

679
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: when she wanted him around. Of course, we know that

680
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: they yanked him out of school and put him in

681
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: a sawmill, which is I'm sure, I mean, such a

682
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: disappointment for him. And they also said that John is

683
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: very strict, very quick tempered, that Wesley was treated harshly.

684
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: So there was a twenty one year old that John had.

685
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: A guy named Mark was his son. He moved out

686
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: of the house and this was I think earlier in

687
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: the year because he didn't like his parents either. He

688
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: had had enough. They were really working him too hard.

689
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: They weren't pleasant to be around. Mark is investigated. He

690
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 1: has a solid alibi, Okay, so it's clear that Wesley

691
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: has been incredibly unhappy. He ran away a couple of

692
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: weeks before the murders. He went to a neighbor's house

693
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: and he said, please take me to Waterloo, Iowa, which

694
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: is where the stepfather had been. Please just let me go.

695
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: I've got to get out of here. And his dad

696
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: shows up and was incredibly angry and dragged him back

697
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: to the farm. So this is a very bleak picture,

698
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: Paul of this kid's home life. But the result was

699
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 1: that the Corners in quest still couldn't come up with

700
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: a suspect, even though we are talking about Wesley. You know,

701
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: the sheriff hires a Pinkerton detective. They put up a

702
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 1: huge reward five hundred dollars, which was massive. In this

703
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,720
Speaker 1: time period, things are not becoming more clear to anyone.

704
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: And certainly no one thinks an eleven year old is

705
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: capable of this. Nobody in this community thinks he's capable

706
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: of this. This is like a beaten dog, essentially, is

707
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: the way people look at this kid.

708
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 2: Sure, you know, at this point in the case, I

709
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 2: would say Wesley is a suspect. And I bet if

710
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: you know, we had all the you know, the evidence,

711
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: all the photographs that possibly could illuminate whether Wesley is

712
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 2: the actual killer or not. But I do think it's

713
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 2: it's it's responsible of those original investigators to continue to

714
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 2: pursue other potential suspects, you know. And and part of

715
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 2: this is, you know, interviewing an eleven year old boy

716
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 2: in this day and age, we know that that has

717
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 2: to be done in a certain way in order to

718
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 2: not influence Wesley, because you know, younger children are very

719
00:39:54,280 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: susceptible to being swayed with their statements, and so there's people,

720
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 2: you know, professionals that are trained to actually interview children.

721
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 2: Wesley's right in that range where, yeah, maybe the primary

722
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 2: homicide investigator you know, could sit down with him and

723
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 2: get truthful statements. But also it's possible that a proper

724
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 2: forensic interview of an eleven year old may have elicited

725
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 2: more information, such as let's say Wesley's inner hostility towards

726
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 2: his parents, potentially providing well, here's a motive.

727
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: Well, people start to really become suspicious of Wesley, they

728
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: say after the funerals, because a neighbor said that he

729
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: seemed to be strange. He was unaffected, indifferent, he had

730
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: no sorrow, no emotion. I mean, you know, if you're

731
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: treated like total shit by your parents, and you know,

732
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: then they're taken out of the picture, don't I don't

733
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 1: know if I would be crying. It sounded like they

734
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: were not great parents. And you and I have talked

735
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 1: about you cannot look at somebody's you know, assume somebody's

736
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: guilty just based on the reaction they're having. That might

737
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 1: not have been the reaction you would have.

738
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 2: You know, no, for sure, you know, and I think

739
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 2: you know Wesley's upbringing, as horrible as it sounds, you know,

740
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 2: of course this from an investigative assessment. You know, this

741
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: is where okay, here's here's a kid that potentially has

742
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 2: animosity towards his parents. But it's not something where you

743
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 2: can make a case on that, right, you still have

744
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 2: to prove the crime occurred. I would say something like

745
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 2: Wesley's upbringing, I mean his age. Of course, in the

746
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 2: justice system, he's going to be treated so differently if

747
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 2: he were an adult, his upbringing would be something that

748
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 2: would be put into you know, the court during sentencing, right,

749
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: try to get leniency for people feel sorry for that

750
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: as an eleven year old boy. If he ends up

751
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 2: being the killer. I don't know what they were doing

752
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 2: back in the eighteen hundreds with what juveniles, but you know, fundamentally,

753
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 2: you know he would in this day and age, he

754
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 2: would be in custody at juvenile hall, but probably released

755
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: at age twenty five, you know, for a double homicide.

756
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:08,720
Speaker 2: But that's just the way it goes.

757
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: So let me go through a little bit. Essentially, he's

758
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: acting strange after these funerals, which I don't think is

759
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 1: actually strange considering what's happening number one and number two.

760
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: I'm sure that he's grown up to be stoic about everything.

761
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: I mean, that would be the kind of farm wife

762
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: in this time period. And also he is described as

763
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: really small, just as small kid. People said, Okay, if

764
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: this was Wesley, then an adult helped him. There's just

765
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: no way, you know that physically he would be able

766
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 1: to unleash this sort of rage on his parents. We

767
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 1: know differently there, but he had been staying with a

768
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: relative for a while, but the relative didn't want to

769
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: either have him any longer, or you know, he wanted

770
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 1: to leave something. So the sheriff takes him. And that's

771
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: a guy named JJ Kahn, and the sheriff says, come

772
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: and stay with my family. Sheriff seems nice, and he

773
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: spends time with Wesley and probably shows quite a bit

774
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: of care. And Wesley confesses. Oh, Wesley confesses, And the

775
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: sheriff says, who worked with you on this? What adult

776
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 1: was it? And he said it wasn't anybody. I've been

777
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: planning this. I did it myself. I'll tell you all

778
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: the details. Tired of hiding it. No adult, I did

779
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: it all by myself.

780
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 2: Wow. Okay, so now I want to hear what Wesley

781
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 2: said happened.

782
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 1: Okay, so he said, like I said, he planned everything.

783
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: He even knew where he was going to put the weapon,

784
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: the bludgeting weapon that you know he hit it so

785
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: that he knew he could have access to it, right,

786
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: and then he hit it after he used it. He

787
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: said that he had planned the murders a few days beforehand.

788
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: On the night of the murders, he waited for his

789
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: parents to fall asleep, and then he gets the family's rifle,

790
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: which we know was hanging on the wall in the

791
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 1: second bedroom. He shoots his dad at close range. We

792
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: know that hits him in the eye. This wakes up Hattie,

793
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: his stepmother, so he panics. This is a It sounds

794
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 1: like a single shot rifle, which means what you have

795
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: to put a bullet This is a stupid question, but

796
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: one shot, single shot, one shot. So he has to

797
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,479
Speaker 1: put a bullet in, right, I mean, this doesn't seem

798
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 1: like the smartest weapon. When you've got two victims, right,

799
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 1: two intended victims, you have to reload.

800
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 2: Yes, So it sounds like I mean, this could be

801
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 2: like a bolt action rifle that doesn't have a you know,

802
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 2: a built in magazine. So, yeah, you see this like

803
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,439
Speaker 2: with sniper rifles where you see them put one round in,

804
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 2: lock the bolt, shoot, and then now they have to,

805
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 2: you know, extract the cartridge case and put another round

806
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 2: in because it's not intended to be a like a

807
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,959
Speaker 2: semi auto where you're just pulling the trigger and getting

808
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 2: multiple shots. Now, there's so many different makes and models

809
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 2: and designs of rifles out there, doesn't surprise me at

810
00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:00,399
Speaker 2: all that they have some a rifle like this. Think

811
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 2: for home defense on a farm, you probably would want

812
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 2: to have something that you know has greater capacity without

813
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 2: having to reload it. But it is what it is.

814
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: And I want to hear more about about Wesley than

815
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 2: what he's saying.

816
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 1: So, like I said, the shot wakes up his stepmother.

817
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 1: He runs to the second bedroom and tosses the gun

818
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: on the bed, which we know. He picks up the

819
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 1: wooden flail, which he had hidden there so he thought

820
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: he might need a second weapon. I guess he assumed

821
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: he was not going to be able to get in

822
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: a second shot. He picks up this flail. He says,

823
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: this is what he says, word for word. I struck

824
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 1: her Hattie, I struck her several times more until I

825
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: was sure she was dead, and then father kind of groaned,

826
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 1: so I struck him once or twice to be sure

827
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: that he was dead. Cold. I mean, that's cold the

828
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: way he's saying this. He said, I had wanted to

829
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 1: leave home and be at Liberty to do so for

830
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: myself for a long time. Sheriff said, what about Nelly?

831
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 1: Why didn't you take her out? And he said, I

832
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: liked her? Okay, I didn't want to hurt her. Why

833
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 1: would I hurt her? She didn't do anything wrong to me.

834
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 1: There you go.

835
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 2: So yet you know the debate, You know, could an

836
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 2: eleven year old boy commit this homicide? Well that's settled.

837
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 2: He did. He doesn't provide any details about maybe a

838
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 2: struggle between him and Hattie at all, because I'm kind

839
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 2: of curious to see how he overcame her and maybe

840
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 2: what I speculated before. You know, he got in a

841
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 2: pretty good shot on her with the flail, and now

842
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 2: she's incapacitated to some extent.

843
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: And also the theory was because I just kept thinking, well,

844
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: how would he even have time to run into the

845
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: second bedroom, drop the gun, pick up the flail, and

846
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 1: come back if Hattie's already getting up. But there's the

847
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 1: theory that she was trying to lie a light. I mean,

848
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 1: we're in the middle of the night and there's no

849
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: like flick a switch. You have to light the lantern.

850
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: She was, I'm sure, completely discombobulated and stunned by all

851
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 1: of this. So he definitely had the upper hand here.

852
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: It's hard to believe that the little sister was laying

853
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,439
Speaker 1: in between the two of them when all of this

854
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: is happening, and she didn't get hurt with all of

855
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: the beating in the dark and everything, because I don't

856
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: think she got the light turned on. But that's what

857
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: he says, that she was there, you know, but I

858
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: don't know. Everybody's covered in blood at this point.

859
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 2: Well, John is shot and he's incapacitated. It sounds like

860
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 2: you get shot through the left eye. That bullet's in

861
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 2: all likelihood going through some pretty significant brain structures. He's gone,

862
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:32,800
Speaker 2: even though Wesley hears him. Grown father's incapacitated, laying still.

863
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 2: The timing of Wesley having to go and get the

864
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 2: flail out of the second bedroom. You imagine you're sleeping,

865
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 2: you hear a gunshot, you wake up. The shooter possibly

866
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 2: is already out of the room, and I can see

867
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 2: where Hattie is, you know, shaking her husband, going hey,

868
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 2: and he's not responding. And next thing, Hattie knows, now

869
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 2: Wesley's in there with the flail, you know, and that

870
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 2: would be happening. I mean we're talking on the order

871
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 2: of ten seconds. I mean, unless this bedroom is all

872
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,240
Speaker 2: the way across a large house. Sounds like the bedroom

873
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: is right next door. In essence, he could go in.

874
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 2: He knows exactly where that flails in and he's going

875
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 2: right into that bedroom. And now Hattie's up and he's

876
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 2: just right on top of her, and she's like, what

877
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 2: is going on? You know, she may not have even

878
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 2: recognized that he had the flail, and you know, he

879
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 2: runs into this dark room and just strikes Hattie and

880
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 2: now she is incapacitated, falls backward on the bed, and

881
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 2: he climbs on top and makes sure she's dead and

882
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 2: then finishes john Off.

883
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's awful what he's describing. He says, Nobody

884
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: helped me. I knew exactly what I was doing. I

885
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 1: wanted to leave. I had had enough. The community, first

886
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: of all, doesn't believe it. Nobody else is involved. But

887
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: then eventually he says, okay, well he was abused. But

888
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 1: they feel like this is a I mean, they would

889
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 1: not say mental illness, but they said an unnatural disposition

890
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 1: inherited from his depraved mother, who was who died, so

891
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:08,919
Speaker 1: basically she was crazy. The prosecutor says that Wesley is irredeemable,

892
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,800
Speaker 1: he's a threat, he must go away. And the criminal

893
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: defense attorney that represented Wesley did not say, you're eleven,

894
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 1: let's argue that your brain hasn't been developed enough. He instead,

895
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: he said you need to plead guilty. So they picked

896
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 1: the murder of John and in January of eighteen ninety, Wesley,

897
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: you know, has plugged guilty and he sentenced to life

898
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:36,919
Speaker 1: in prison. At twelve, he enters the state penitentiary at Anamosa.

899
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,280
Speaker 1: So there's a twelve year old in a state penitentiary

900
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: at this point. Can you believe that? I mean, that's unreal,

901
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 1: but better than an insane asylum. I can tell you.

902
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 2: That relatively speaking. But you know, a twelve year old

903
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 2: boy in a penitentiary, You've got all these men that

904
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 2: are probably going to sectually abuse him. You know, it

905
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 2: is an ugly, ugly situation and this is where it

906
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 2: gets tough because obviously, I mean, this is a horrific crime.

907
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,839
Speaker 2: Two people are dead, and yet there's almost a level

908
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:12,280
Speaker 2: of sympathy for the killer under this this set of circumstances.

909
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 2: And I can think of one case in which a

910
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 2: son came up and shot his sleeping dad in the

911
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 2: back of the head because he had been abusing his mom.

912
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 2: You know, the entire relationship, the family dynamics are real.

913
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot of emotions. And with Wesley, obviously,

914
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 2: that lifetime of rejection sounds like possibly most early verbal

915
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 2: abuse and possibly physical abuse by Hattie and John, you know,

916
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 2: is also going to increase that level of animosity. And

917
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 2: he just ultimately, you know, kind of said I'm done,

918
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 2: I've had enough.

919
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, he ends up in prison. He is there,

920
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:58,800
Speaker 1: and when he's eighteen, he starts really pushing to be released.

921
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,720
Speaker 1: He writes a letter to a local journalist and says,

922
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 1: you've got to tell my story. And he does. And

923
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 1: Wesley is ahead of his time. He says, I was abused.

924
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: I act impulsively. My brain was still developing. I was

925
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: eleven years old, and now you put me in a penitentiary.

926
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: I mean I can be reformed. And these, of course

927
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,439
Speaker 1: are the arguments that we talk about today, the brain

928
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 1: development as someone that age, and can they really understand

929
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: the decisions that they're making. He wrote with this journalist

930
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 1: and the journalist's publishing parts in the newspaper, and it

931
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 1: really impresses the community. This is around nineteen oh one,

932
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: nineteen oh two. He says, I'm not much given to

933
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: heart outpourings. I see myself that as a boy who

934
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: had not reached an age of reason. I feel like

935
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,399
Speaker 1: my crime, terrible as it was, has been punished as

936
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 1: far as necessary for the benefit of good morals. My

937
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 1: position here is a strange one. I'm practically alone in

938
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 1: my sympathies and hopes. I've cultivated self reliance, and somebody

939
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 1: might deem me cold, but my distant demeanor is the

940
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,919
Speaker 1: result of necessity, which I mean, I think essentially means

941
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,919
Speaker 1: he was in self preservation mode. He says this whole time, right,

942
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 1: he has a great reputation in prison, and I think

943
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: you can see where we're heading in nineteen oh two.

944
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:15,319
Speaker 1: Eventually he is paroled. So he hasn't been pardoned, but

945
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 1: he's been paroled, and eventually he gets a full pardon.

946
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: So he's out in his twenties or so, and by

947
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 1: all accounts, he led a great life. He got his education,

948
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: he left Iowa, never went back. He finds work at

949
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 1: the railroad, He gets married, he ends up settling down.

950
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 1: He has a small chicken farm until he dies. And

951
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one, at the age of eighty three, we

952
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 1: don't know. He doesn't sound like he's ever committed another murder.

953
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 1: These are confusing stories for me. You know, this is

954
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 1: someone who went on to do a lot of good.

955
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 1: It sounds like he led a great life that we

956
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: know of, but he did a terrible thing. And would

957
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 1: the argument, Paul, for any prosecutor when you were killing

958
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: two people who are in bed and asleep at the time,

959
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: is this is not self defense. They are not doing

960
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,800
Speaker 1: anything to you right now. Isn't that what that argument

961
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 1: would be.

962
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 2: Well, that's part of it, that's all, you know, sort

963
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 2: of the evaluation of, well, what crime has actually been committed, right,

964
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 2: you know, And that's there's a reason why you have

965
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 2: different degrees of murder. You also have manslaughter. That's the

966
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 2: role of the you know, the prosecutor evaluating the crimes

967
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 2: as to well what am I dealing with here? And

968
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 2: one of the first things is is there a reason

969
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 2: for the suspect or now the you know, the arrestee,

970
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 2: to have have used lethal force for self preservation, your

971
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 2: self defense thing, you know, And of course prosecutors do

972
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 2: look for that, and that often is the defense. You know,

973
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 2: if the prosecutor says, hey, I've got I've got murder,

974
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 2: you know, whether it be second degree, first degree murder, oftentimes,

975
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 2: you know, the defense attorneys will try to show that no,

976
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 2: they acted, the defendant acted in self defense, try to

977
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:06,280
Speaker 2: mitigate that murder charge. With Wesley, part of the evaluation

978
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 2: of what of the crime he committed, he admits to

979
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 2: planning ahead of time. He's positioning the flail in his bedroom.

980
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 2: He's waiting for his parents to fall asleep. You know.

981
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 2: So now you've got this, you've got the pre planning,

982
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 2: You've got this what's called malice, a forethought. It's not

983
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 2: in a heat of the moment type of scenario, you know,

984
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 2: where Dad is verbally lashing at him and things are

985
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 2: getting heated, and now Wesley grabs a gun and shoots

986
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 2: him in a spontaneous act. This was something that he

987
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 2: planned and so that now elevates this to a first

988
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 2: degree murder at least the way you know, I'm understanding

989
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,800
Speaker 2: things about this crime and how the murder is defined

990
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 2: in California. You know, so this is a very serious offense.

991
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 2: But he's eleven years old, Yeah, right, you know, and

992
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 2: this is where you know, you start talking about, you know,

993
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 2: the debate of you know, criminals that commit to this

994
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 2: level of violent crime, can they be reformed or not?

995
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 2: What depends on the type of crime. It depends on,

996
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 2: you know, in Wessey's case, his age, you know, and

997
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 2: what he was being subjected to. I think there's a

998
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 2: lot of factors that go into play and assessing you know,

999
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 2: this particular offender. Yeah, and you know there's a reason why,

1000
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:34,439
Speaker 2: you know, typically nowadays, you know, juveniles, you know, from

1001
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 2: a criminal standpoint, are treated in a different justice process

1002
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 2: than adults, and usually that age is eighteen here in

1003
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:43,800
Speaker 2: the United States.

1004
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: Well, what a story. When I read it, I couldn't

1005
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: believe in an eleven year old doing this. A more

1006
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:54,399
Speaker 1: small kid too, But you know, as always, we learned

1007
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 1: something from these stories. Thank you, Paul, telling me an

1008
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: eleven year old is capable of doing this awful by gosh.

1009
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 2: Well even I was struggling with his age for this

1010
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 2: type of crime. Yeah, you know, but rage, that's a

1011
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 2: real thing.

1012
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: It is.

1013
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 2: It is.

1014
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 1: Well, next week we'll have a very different story, I promise. Okay, okay, Well,

1015
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: I'll see you next week.

1016
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 2: All right, looking forward to it, Kate.

1017
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

1018
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com

1019
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

1020
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,319
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

1021
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:36,840
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1022
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,400
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1023
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1024
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:44,280
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1025
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1026
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1027
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 1: Barry Bones Pod.

1028
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1029
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1030
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

1031
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1032
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.