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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds.

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Speaker 2: And Donald Trump told Vegas rally goers, I don't care

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Speaker 2: about you. I just want your vote. We have such

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Speaker 2: a great show for you today. Pro Public is Justin

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Speaker 2: Elliot stops by to tell us about the absolutely shocking

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Speaker 2: news that Donald Trump's campaign has bumped up the salaries

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Speaker 2: for employees where witnesses in his trials.

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Speaker 3: That we'll talk to.

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Speaker 2: Jeff Goodell about his new book, The Heat Will Kill

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Speaker 2: You First, Life and Death on a Scorched Planet. But

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Speaker 2: first we have the host of the Enemy's List, the

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Speaker 2: Lincoln Project's own Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 1: But we're here now, that's right, Welcome back, Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 4: Lully, John Fast delighted as always to join you.

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Speaker 1: We check in every week so we can chart each

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Speaker 1: other's dysfunction and also this political craziness. Sure, explain to

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Speaker 1: me what you think happened this week? There was this

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Speaker 1: guilty verdict. I actually think it's more meaningful than the

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Speaker 1: polls show because there's so much pulling that shows people

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Speaker 1: believe it to be just and true.

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Speaker 3: It is a real thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, people should not be living in this fantasy world

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Speaker 4: that this didn't happen. It happened, and it's actually meaningful.

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Speaker 4: I can tell you we have come out of some

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Speaker 4: focus groups this week that we're gonna release some data

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Speaker 4: on shortly. I gotta tell you, I know why Trump

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Speaker 4: is so it's banging off the walls. I know why

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Speaker 4: Trump is bouncing off the damn the damn ceiling. His

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Speaker 4: people are not stupid, and they recognize this is much

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Speaker 4: worse than they think. The biggest group of people that

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Speaker 4: needs to hear this are mainstream media folks.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, who think, oh, it's all baked to a cake.

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Speaker 3: Everybody knows that about Trump. Uh huh.

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Speaker 4: This is much much, much, much much more consequential. People

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Speaker 4: do not understand how bad.

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Speaker 3: This is for him.

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Speaker 1: So can you explain.

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Speaker 4: Women, independents, they are coming out of these we're seeing

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Speaker 4: it out of the numbers that they believe the case

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Speaker 4: was justly decided. They don't believe any of the conspiracy garbage.

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Speaker 1: Right, and now we see broadly in polls it's like abortion.

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Speaker 1: People believe this case was rightly decided, that he definitely

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Speaker 1: did something corrupt, and also that women should have rights

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Speaker 1: of their own bodily autonomy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And by the way, that continues to be an interesting buzz.

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Speaker 4: Underneath all of the materials that we're seeing, there is

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Speaker 4: a sense and a feeling that the noise he's tried

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Speaker 4: to make around all this is actually making it a

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Speaker 4: little bit worse, if that makes sense, that his method

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Speaker 4: of defending himself has made it more credible that he

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Speaker 4: did everything that the jury determined that he did. And

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Speaker 4: two other points of this this popped up in some

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Speaker 4: of the research. As I said, I didn't expect this,

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Speaker 4: but these are two good points in both of which

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Speaker 4: I found sort of interestingly optimistic. The way he behaved

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Speaker 4: towards Stormy Daniels in the court actually penetrated with the

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Speaker 4: lot of voters, which you would have never had me

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Speaker 4: say that unless I've seen the data just now. But

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Speaker 4: they reflected that. In how Trump treats women overall, Egene, Carol,

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Speaker 4: Stormy grab them by the pussy. All these things are

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Speaker 4: a consolidated view of Trump. They play into what people

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Speaker 4: believe Donald Trump is and does, and so that piece

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Speaker 4: of data. Also, I'm just going to declare this right

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Speaker 4: here and now, the assertion that Donald Trump has flipped

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Speaker 4: black voters completely is profoundly ft from what we've just

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Speaker 4: seen in several swing states. It's not just wrong, it's

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Speaker 4: not just academically wrong. It's profoundly wrong. Trump's going to

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Speaker 4: get the same basic numbers that any Republican gets of

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Speaker 4: black voters in the end of the day, seven to

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Speaker 4: eight percent.

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Speaker 3: That's it. Now, does that mean the Biden campaign shouldn't

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Speaker 3: be out there? They can assauce, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: They need to do it every day, but the panic

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Speaker 4: attack needs to stop about that, and confidence in that

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Speaker 4: would help a lot.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that happened this week was that

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Speaker 1: Byron Donald's.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, Jim Crow, Byron was not that bad.

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Speaker 1: It kept American families together. I mean, that's like Hitler

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Speaker 1: had some good ideas.

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Speaker 4: That is exactly like Hitler had some good ideas. It

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Speaker 4: is absolute fucking lunacy.

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Speaker 1: It's so wrong. I was sort of shocked when I

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Speaker 1: heard it.

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Speaker 4: Listen a lot of people that have tried to make

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Speaker 4: Byron Donalds the new Fetch and fetch happening for Byron Donalds.

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Speaker 4: Fetch is not happening for Byron Donald's. This is a

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Speaker 4: guy who went from a kind of a hot property

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Speaker 4: to people thinking, is he high on his own supply?

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Speaker 4: This was a bad day for them. I mean, they

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Speaker 4: shouldn't pretend that Byron Donald's quote unquote owned the libs

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Speaker 4: or won something on Fox News. This was a real

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Speaker 4: screw up. This was ugly and stupid.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that, when you were just talking before

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Speaker 1: about this idea that Trump is actually hurting himself with

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Speaker 1: this verdict and the way he's behaving after it. Do

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Speaker 1: you think that some of that is this idea that

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Speaker 1: when you do something bad and you're like own those

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Speaker 1: libs are owned, that you're actually making it worse.

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Speaker 4: I think a lot of the time, the idea of

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Speaker 4: quote unquote owning the libs, the idea of being transgressive

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Speaker 4: for the sake of transgression, is it gets tired in

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Speaker 4: the end. It gets boring in the end, and a

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Speaker 4: lot of people like the showmanship of the lib owning world.

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Speaker 4: At some point it just loses its juice, It loses

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Speaker 4: its desirability of the amount of emotional investment people want

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Speaker 4: to put into it anymore.

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Speaker 1: Trump did announce eight potential VP candidates. He put Ben

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Speaker 1: Carson on there.

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Speaker 4: I just want to say to all of your listeners,

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Speaker 4: Molly all the folks out there that tune into us

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Speaker 4: every week for our moment of glory. Yes, that list

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Speaker 4: with some horseshit.

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Speaker 1: Oh interesting, say more.

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Speaker 4: That list is bullshit, writ large. He is playing the

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Speaker 4: apprentice game right now, there's going to be a surprise

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Speaker 4: contestant who might get the rows or whatever.

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Speaker 3: The fuck?

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Speaker 4: I maybe mixing my bullshit reality show metaphors, but that

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Speaker 4: list was horseshit interesting. The idea that you're going to

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Speaker 4: end up with some of the people on that list

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Speaker 4: is beyond ridiculous, beyond absurd.

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Speaker 1: Right, But you think he's got someone else that he

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Speaker 1: just didn't put him live.

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Speaker 4: I think he's got somebody else, or I think he

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Speaker 4: looks at that list and says, fuck these idiots.

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Speaker 1: See. I think this list is people that he wants

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Speaker 1: to help him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, that's definitely part of it.

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Speaker 1: Rubio is very helpful to him with Hispanic voters. JD.

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Speaker 1: Vance is this sort of intellectual maga though that's oxymoron

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Speaker 1: right right, But you know Tim Scott, he thinks maybe

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Speaker 1: I get it helps him with five vote, Stephanic will

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Speaker 1: do it, will die for him.

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Speaker 4: Stephonic would literally if he said, Elise, I need you

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Speaker 4: to take your Doug outside and show me your you're

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Speaker 4: Christy Nome. I need you to take the dog out

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Speaker 4: to the gravel pit and kill it. I need it now, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and she'd do it.

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Speaker 1: And Tom Cotton. The one on this list that I

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Speaker 1: think is a real possibility is Doug Burgham.

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Speaker 4: I think Doug Burgham may well be a possibility. Look,

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Speaker 4: I think the broad list is horseship. But Doug Burgham

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Speaker 4: is saying things to Donald Trump in the order of

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Speaker 4: whatever you need, I will do. And Doug Burgham doesn't

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Speaker 4: feel too Trump as risky.

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Speaker 1: Jadie Vance could a fallow him, right.

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Speaker 4: Jd Vance could rat fuck him a hard and he

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Speaker 4: knows that, by the.

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Speaker 1: Way, and Rubio too. He wants somebody who is zero.

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Speaker 3: Listen.

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Speaker 4: I can tell you from direct knowledge, Marco Rubio the

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Speaker 4: minute he got into that office would spend every second

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Speaker 4: of every day finding a way to fuck Trump.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which would be awesome. That would be the one

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Speaker 1: bright spot in the hole.

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Speaker 3: It would be great.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, But it would also he would he would never

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Speaker 4: have absolutely never pick Rubio. Rubio has criticized him, and

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Speaker 4: you can't do that in Trump world. That's not allowed.

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Speaker 1: Well, also Rubio's from Florida, right, I mean he'd have

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Speaker 1: to give up his sentence.

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Speaker 4: You right, that somebody would have to move or whatever.

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Speaker 4: It's Look, it's a bullshit thing. But I will say

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Speaker 4: that Marco is such an absolute snake of all snakes

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Speaker 4: that even Trump knows that Mark or Rubio. Think about this,

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Speaker 4: Marco Rubio's political mentor. The man who made Marco Rubio's career,

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Speaker 4: the guy who put Mark or Rubio in the House

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Speaker 4: speakership in Florida, the guy who did everything for Marco

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Speaker 4: Rubio that no other politician could do was Jeb Bush, right,

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Speaker 4: And Mark or Rubio rat fucked Jeb Bush so hard.

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Speaker 4: And Jeb's not a guy that goes out and seeks revenge, right,

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Speaker 4: But he would fuck Trump. It's such a millisecond. He

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Speaker 4: would be working the phone with the Washington Post and

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Speaker 4: the New York Times every day. He'd be calling Maggie

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Speaker 4: at two o'clock in the morning instead of Trump calling

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Speaker 4: her at one, going hey, listen, I note, Well, he

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Speaker 4: must have said something crazy.

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Speaker 3: I you know, you should come to me first, right.

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Speaker 4: I just know this fucking guy, and he will he

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Speaker 4: will absolutely rat fuck them to death.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that seems very likely. But you know what, Trump

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Speaker 1: just because he's publishing this list doesn't mean that this

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Speaker 1: is the list, which I think is really absolutely What

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Speaker 1: I do think is interesting about Doug Bergham is that

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Speaker 1: he actually is pretty smart and is sort of not

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Speaker 1: like he appears as a zero to Trump, but in

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Speaker 1: some ways, I mean, he's more of a sort of

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Speaker 1: more educated Mike Pans but who knows.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I think that's right. Look, yeah, I don't underestimate

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Speaker 4: Burgham's intelligence. The guy actually did build a legitimately successful business.

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Speaker 4: He's not stupid. He's not a traditional political thinker, right,

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Speaker 4: which is not Look, I don't think that's the worst

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Speaker 4: thing in the world, right, But I will say this,

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Speaker 4: It also doesn't end up giving you a deeper understanding

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Speaker 4: of Doug Bergham if you observe him in this in

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Speaker 4: this campaign, you don't really know who the guy was

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Speaker 4: except as a sort of cipher. I suspect he's actually

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Speaker 4: been running for VP all along.

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Speaker 1: Yes, for sure, I mean there's Roe Kaiser SoSE stuff

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Speaker 1: here going on. Oh sure, stay tuned. So one of

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Speaker 1: the stories this week that has gotten me absolutely so

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Speaker 1: itchy is this story that San Francisco has now welcomed

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump because David Sacks had an event. David Sachs

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Speaker 1: is a venture capitalist and he's also sucks.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: His companies include Doucheco, flaming Ahole, dot net, and.

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Speaker 1: Like all wealthy men, his dream is to be famous.

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Speaker 1: So he has a podcast.

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Speaker 4: Yes, he has a pod cast. And if you ever

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Speaker 4: want to amuse yourself for hours on end, David Sachs

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Speaker 4: at one point considered himself to be a world class

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Speaker 4: poker player. If you ever want to have a great laugh,

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Speaker 4: go watch David Sachs play poker against actual poker players

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Speaker 4: on YouTube. Because you realize this is a guy who,

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Speaker 4: as a tech bro type, like PayPal alumni, tech bro type,

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Speaker 4: believes that his skills in some narrow sector of technology

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Speaker 4: transfer to everything else. Yeah, and that's a very common

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Speaker 4: thing in Silicon Valley. By the way, don't you.

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Speaker 3: Don't mistake me.

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Speaker 4: If you woke up Elon Musk out of a sound

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Speaker 4: sleep and said, hey, what do you know about rat biology?

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Speaker 4: He would pretend to be the greatest rat biologist in

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Speaker 4: all history. But Sax is neo. He brokeer some of

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Speaker 4: these people to come in and let let's not you know,

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Speaker 4: for ourselves. San Francisco may be a liberal city governance wise,

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Speaker 4: but there's a massive amount of tech bro douche nozzle

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Speaker 4: types who really are in intrigued by things like authoritarianism,

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Speaker 4: intrigued by things like I'm just going to say it,

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Speaker 4: by the return of the monarchy. It's weird, but a

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Speaker 4: lot of the alt right thinking kind of emerge from

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Speaker 4: some of these Silicon Valley post libertarian weirdos.

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Speaker 1: Right, they're pretty stupid. I mean, what is kind of

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Speaker 1: amazing is like these are these people. I mean Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk is a great example. Again, you can argue what

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Speaker 1: stage he took over Tesla, you can argue whether or

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Speaker 1: not he's a scientist, but he did in fact do

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Speaker 1: some smart investing if nothing else. Sure, and he was

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Speaker 1: able to parlay government subsidies into becoming the richest man

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Speaker 1: in the world, which is not nothing. But he's really

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Speaker 1: done terribly when it comes to squandering money on X

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Speaker 1: sucking up to some of the scariest autocrats in the

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Speaker 1: Republican Party. I have this theory that you need to

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Speaker 1: have one person who tells you the truth. Sure, and

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Speaker 1: if you're a billionaire like that, you don't have one

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Speaker 1: person who tells you the truth.

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Speaker 4: No, everyone who talks to Elon Musk in his circle

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Speaker 4: every day tells him you are the smartest, richest, most

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Speaker 4: handsome man in the world. Everyone else is stupid. You

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Speaker 4: are magical and your twelve feet tall, and women desire you,

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Speaker 4: men want to be and look. You and I both

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Speaker 4: have known enough very wealthy people that that is a

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Speaker 4: very addictive thing to have in front of them.

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Speaker 3: That is a very powerful drug.

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Speaker 1: Right, But in the end it leads to making terrible decisions.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm trying to remember who it was. One

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Speaker 1: of those tech guys was saying that, you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: Biden would lose the primary to Dean Phillips because Dean

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Speaker 1: Phillips was a bold new voice.

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Speaker 3: That was Bill Ackman.

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Speaker 1: That's one of my favorite tweets. Thank you for reminding

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Speaker 1: me about that.

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Speaker 3: Happy to poke the button me.

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Speaker 1: A moment of joy if nothing else.

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Speaker 3: Yes, go on, And I say this a lot.

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Speaker 4: People who are very good at something like to believe

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Speaker 4: they're very good at everything.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 4: That's a sign of maturity when you know that you're

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Speaker 4: good at one thing, but you're not good at even

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Speaker 4: scaling up certain things right. But I'll give you an example, Molly.

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Speaker 4: I am a fairly experienced pilot. I've flown a lot

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Speaker 4: of hours. I've flowed a bunch of different airplanes. But

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Speaker 4: me flying a beachcraft bearing around is one thing. But

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Speaker 4: if you sat me in the seat of an F

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Speaker 4: thirty five fighter plane, could I take off? Could I

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Speaker 4: fly around? Probably? Am I going to drill into the

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Speaker 4: ground like a fucking idiot? Almost certainly so these guys

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Speaker 4: who say, well, I've managed a tech company, therefore I

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Speaker 4: understand how to run the entire economy for Donald Trump? No,

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Speaker 4: maybe that ain't it?

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Speaker 1: That?

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Speaker 3: Ain't it? Chief right?

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Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, and it is a certain hubris. Yes, incredible.

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Speaker 1: It does strike me that they really are not as

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Speaker 1: good at this as they think they are.

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Speaker 4: They're really not. And to be clear, an awful lot

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Speaker 4: of these tech people, these are guys who, no matter

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Speaker 4: how rich they get, they still come from this sort

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Speaker 4: of background of difficult interpersonal skills because they were not

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Speaker 4: raised to be people who were great at fraternity parties.

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Speaker 4: You were good in the room of talking to girls.

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Speaker 4: All of it, like their weirdness and their diffidence sometimes

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Speaker 4: and arrogance others the in cell streak is strong with

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Speaker 4: many of these people, it's very difficult for them to

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Speaker 4: overcome that weird goofy college tech bro thing, and so

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Speaker 4: I find that to be a real causal factor in.

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Speaker 3: A lot of this.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 4: I'm delighted as always, Molly.

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Speaker 1: Spring is here, and I bet you are trying to

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Speaker 1: look fashionable. So why not pick up some fashionable all

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Speaker 1: new Fast Politics merchandise. We just opened a news store

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00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,960
Speaker 1: with all new designs just for you. Get t shirts, hoodies, hats,

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00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:57,000
Speaker 1: and top bags. To grab some, head to fastpolitics dot com.

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Speaker 2: Justin Elliott is a reporter at pro Public Company.

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Speaker 3: Hey, good to be here.

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Speaker 1: Tell me how you guys got going on this?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. You know.

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Speaker 5: We were looking at some staffers of the Trump campaign,

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Speaker 5: just kind of doing preliminary research, trying to understand who

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Speaker 5: was running the campaign, and started to notice that a

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Speaker 5: lot of people who work on the campaign are also

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Speaker 5: people that have found themselves as witnesses in the various

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Speaker 5: cases against Trump, the criminal cases, and so this struck

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Speaker 5: us as potentially interesting, and then we sort of widen

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Speaker 5: the scope of our research and started noticing that there

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Speaker 5: were other people at for example, the Trump Organization is

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Speaker 5: business and the company that runs social Trump Media, who

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Speaker 5: were also witnesses. So turned out to be a fairly

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Speaker 5: large set of people who actually had money in one

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Speaker 5: form or another flowing to them who are witnesses and

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Speaker 5: the Trump cases, and so that seemed interesting to us,

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Speaker 5: so we started kind of understand.

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Speaker 1: What going on and what did you find?

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Speaker 5: What we found is that there's at least nine people

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Speaker 5: who are witnesses in the Trump cases who have had

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Speaker 5: financial benefits flow to them from Trump, in many cases

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Speaker 5: sort of unusual or unexplained financial benefits. So to give

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Speaker 5: a couple examples, there's a staff around the campaign named

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Speaker 5: Boris Epstein who was also heavily involved in the events

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Speaker 5: after the twenty twenty election, is a witness in the

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Speaker 5: election interference cases against Trump, and we found that right

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Speaker 5: after those indictments, he saw his pay from the campaign

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Speaker 5: basically double from around twenty six thousand a month on

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Speaker 5: average to over fifty thousand.

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Speaker 3: Dollars a month on average.

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Speaker 5: I think that's around seven hundred thousand dollars a year,

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Speaker 5: so a salary that a lot of people would be

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Speaker 5: pretty happy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you found these pay bombs, and they were

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Speaker 1: sort of timed right after people didn't testify.

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Speaker 5: Time that at a variety of sort of sensitive moments

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Speaker 5: in these various investigations. Obviously there's a lot of acts here.

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Speaker 5: But you know, in another case, and this is one

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Speaker 5: that actually came up in the Hushmunny trial last month,

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Speaker 5: the Trump organization gave what seems to be a pretty

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Speaker 5: unusual severance package to Alan Weisselberg, longtime CFO, two million

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Speaker 5: dollars in the heart of the investigations that Weisselberg was

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Speaker 5: somebody that was clearly going to be a witness inner

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Speaker 5: had knowledge of. And this wasn't two million dollars paid

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Speaker 5: all at once. It was two million dollars paid in

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Speaker 5: installments over two years, with a non disparagement clause attached

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Speaker 5: to it.

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Speaker 1: Alan Weisselberg is being paid to go to jail and

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Speaker 1: also not testify. I know you're not on the opinion

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Speaker 1: side that you're astral journalist, but one might extrapolate that

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Speaker 1: he is being paid for something.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and this is something that Eric Trump actually was

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Speaker 5: asked about this on the stand in the civil fraud

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Speaker 5: trial last year and claimed that his dad had nothing

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Speaker 5: to do with it. Maybe he didn't even know about it,

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Speaker 5: but what the facts are is that, yeah, Alan Weisberg

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Speaker 5: was given two million dollars paid in installments over the

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Speaker 5: course of two years. I think it's actually still being

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Speaker 5: paid at with this non asparishment club hot take.

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Speaker 1: Would you go to jail for two million dollars?

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Speaker 5: I would not go to rip peers for probably any

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Speaker 5: amount of money, piste when I read about how that

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Speaker 5: place is thro un.

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Speaker 1: And you guys have done some really good reporting about

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Speaker 1: wrikers too, And I don't want to laugh, because there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of people who are being treated really

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Speaker 1: poorly by this criminal justice completely, but none of them

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Speaker 1: have the last name of Trump. So explain to us

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Speaker 1: what this sort of looks like. So Epstein is actually

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Speaker 1: still working for Trump World and is a pretty central figure, right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And he's a really interesting case because you know,

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Speaker 5: as I mentioned, he was very deeply involved in the

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Speaker 5: effort to assemble false electors after Toy twenty election, to

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Speaker 5: the point where he actually was just indicted himself in

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Speaker 5: the Arizona case, but in Trump's cases, he appeared before

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Speaker 5: the Georgia Grand Jurity. He was interviewed by the FEDS

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Speaker 5: on what became the Federal Special Council election interference case.

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Speaker 5: And he, you know, as I mentioned, his pay went

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Speaker 5: from twenty six thousand a month to fifty three thousand

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Speaker 5: a month. The campaign says that sort of duties ramped up.

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Speaker 5: It's not totally clear what he does every day. They

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Speaker 5: describe it as ordinating the legal defense efforts, coordinating all lawyers.

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Speaker 5: And Epstein is a lawyer, but as far as we

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Speaker 5: could tell, he's never done any criminal defense work. I

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Speaker 5: believe he did some kind of investment banking, financial transaction stuff.

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Speaker 5: So not exactly a natural choice to coordinate an complex

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Speaker 5: white collar defense case or set of cases.

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Speaker 1: And he's not behind the desk anywhere. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: not like we're seeing him do this.

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Speaker 5: I think he showed up to the hush money trial

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Speaker 5: at least a couple of times in.

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Speaker 1: The galley, not as behind the table advising him.

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Speaker 5: No, he is not acting as an attorney for Trump.

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Speaker 5: He's a campaign staffer who's what they say is coordinating

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Speaker 5: the work of the lawyers. I mean, the other striking

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Speaker 5: thing about this is that you think you would think

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Speaker 5: that you know, your pay doubles to something like seven

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Speaker 5: hundred thousand dollars a year, that that's your only job.

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Speaker 5: But actually he's technically a contractor, and we found that

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Speaker 5: a couple months after the pay increase, he took on

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Speaker 5: an additional side job working for an unrelated financial services

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Speaker 5: company with the title of managing director. He's also still

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Speaker 5: working for some other campaigns unrelated to Trump, so he's

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Speaker 5: not even devoting all his time to the Trump campaign

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Speaker 5: despite getting the stricks.

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Speaker 1: So he's making seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars for

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Speaker 1: a part time job.

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Speaker 5: He might contest that it's part time, but I guess

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Speaker 5: what I would say strictly hwigs.

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Speaker 3: What we know is he has other jobs.

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Speaker 5: It's possibly he's working more than forty hours away.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, that's something. Talk to me about some of

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Speaker 1: the other characters in this story.

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Speaker 4: Sure.

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Speaker 5: So another interesting figure actually is one of the people

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Speaker 5: that's running the campaign, a Florida political operative named Susie Wilds.

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Speaker 5: She's usually described as the de facto campaign manager, and

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Speaker 5: she ended up becoming a witness in the classified documents

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Speaker 5: case because you know, according to the allegations, at least

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Speaker 5: she was one of the people that Trump actually showed

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Speaker 5: some of these classified documents too. She didn't have any

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Speaker 5: security clearance, so that's actually part of the classified document case.

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Speaker 3: She ended up becoming a.

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Speaker 5: Witness in that, and we're able to see through the

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Speaker 5: campaign and finance disclosure records that the same month that

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Speaker 5: Trump was indicted in that case in which she's a witness,

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Speaker 5: there's a balloon payment from the highest ever payment had

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Speaker 5: gotten in a single month from the campaign, seventy five

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Speaker 5: thousand dollars. The campaign told us that this was actually

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Speaker 5: paying for several months of work, but there's no way

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Speaker 5: to kind of confirm that independently. So she got a

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Speaker 5: raise and there was this billian payment. And then also interesting,

443
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 5: her adult daughter was hired by the campaign, Caroline Wilds,

444
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 5: in a high paying position. I think she's the fourth

445
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 5: highest paid person of the campaign right now. And this

446
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 5: is somebody that has sort of been around Trump world,

447
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 5: although she was most recently in the news what Trump

448
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 5: was in the White House, because she actually had to

449
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 5: leave one of her jobs, reportedly because she didn't pass

450
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,119
Speaker 5: a background check. She'd had some financial problems, and I

451
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 5: think DUIs in her past. So the context here, by

452
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:42,400
Speaker 5: the way, is like actual witness tempering is a federal crime. Now,

453
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 5: to be clear, what you need to prove that crime

454
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 5: is first of all, that some benefit was given to

455
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 5: a witness or there was some sort of penalty. But

456
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 5: the difficult part to prove is the intent part. You know,

457
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 5: prosters would have to prove that Trump was intending to

458
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 5: influence their testimony. We talked to a bunch of white

459
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 5: collar fencillers who said this is sometimes hard to prove.

460
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 5: Although interestingly, both Roger Stone and Paul Manislor, both former

461
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 5: Trump campaigns, were each separately convicted of federal winnesssemmery charges

462
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 5: in their criminal cases a few years ago, so it's

463
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 5: not impossible to yeah, as.

464
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: A benefic share of nepotism. Myself, I hate to set

465
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: all in the weeds about it, but it does strike

466
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 1: me as you know, hiring the daughter when she couldn't

467
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 1: pass the background check, making her the fourth highest paid

468
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 1: person in the campaign. And there does seem to be

469
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: a fair amount of squandering of donor dollars.

470
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 5: Here, right, I mean, at the very least, even if

471
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 5: there's no crime here and we're not reporting that there was,

472
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 5: we're kind of laying out it seems like a pretty

473
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,199
Speaker 5: striking pattern. But this is the type of thing that

474
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 5: if these cases actually do ever end up going to trial,

475
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 5: the remaining cases, which are the federal and state election

476
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 5: interference cases, the by documents case, these are facts that

477
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 5: could become very relevant if these people end up on

478
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 5: the stand when they're being cross examined or questioned by prosecutors,

479
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 5: you know, because it can speak to their credibility. If

480
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 5: you're getting a paycheck from the defendant in a case,

481
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 5: that's something that's obviously relevant.

482
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 3: I think it becomes more interesting.

483
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 5: We were told by lawyers if if you got unexplained

484
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 5: raises or special treatment in either direction of books.

485
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 1: So people like Borisch, Epstein, Susie Wilds, who else is

486
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: sort of benefiting from this well timed raise.

487
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's another campaign staffer named Margot Martin who was

488
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 5: at the New York hush money case fairly frequently. Martin

489
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 5: was another person who became a witness in the classified

490
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,120
Speaker 5: documents case because allegedly she was in the room when

491
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 5: Trump showed off what he described I believe on tape

492
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,360
Speaker 5: as a secret military document.

493
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: I remember, Wow, you said, I empty classified this anymore

494
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: because I'm not president anymore. Right, There was something like that.

495
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, And he also, I believe, described it as secret

496
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 5: and highly confidential.

497
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's right, and I gotta love it.

498
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 5: And so she was called before the grand jury as

499
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,199
Speaker 5: a witness in that case. A few months before that

500
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 5: she got it, was given a job on Trump campaign

501
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 5: and was given a twenty percent pay raise from her

502
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 5: previous job working for a kind of Trump affiliated political committee.

503
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 5: So not as dramatic as the Epstein case, but still

504
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 5: something that seems relevant. I mean, I think the maybe

505
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 5: the most striking one in terms of the amount of

506
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,959
Speaker 5: money involves Dan Scavino.

507
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: Oh, a character from Season one, Yeah, tell us Dancecavino.

508
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: He started as a caddy, right.

509
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 5: He's known Trump, I think since he was a teenager

510
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 5: as a caddie. And the kind of funny Trump line

511
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 5: that we quoted in our story is Trump once called

512
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 5: Scavino the most powerful man in politics because he had

513
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 5: the keys to Trump's social media accounts, he could posed

514
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 5: for Trump.

515
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 3: So he's obviously a.

516
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 5: Long time paid and associate of Trump. He was with

517
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 5: Trump in the final weeks of his presidency again the

518
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 5: whole period of tried to overtry the election, and then

519
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 5: January sixth, he was subpoenaed by the January sixth Committee,

520
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 5: and for a while he was fighting that subpoena. He

521
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 5: did ultimately appear, but in between the time when he

522
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 5: was subpoena and he appeared, he was given a consulting

523
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 5: deal by True Social, the company behind Truth's Social, that

524
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 5: was worth two hundred and forty thousand dollars a year.

525
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 5: He was also given board seat on the company, and then,

526
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 5: most interestingly, although the timing on this is not really clear,

527
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 5: he was given a four million dollar what they call

528
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 5: promisory noe, which is something that ultimately became shares of

529
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 5: the company, but four million dollars worth of shares of

530
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 5: the company. And we asked Trump Media group what this

531
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 5: was for, and they didn't engage with us. I think

532
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 5: it's been reported he had some role in kind of

533
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 5: coming up with the idea True Social. Details in that

534
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 5: not totally clear to me, But he is a witness

535
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 5: who was given four million dollars by Trump Media.

536
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: That seems like a lot of money to me. It is,

537
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: it feels like a lot. This isn't illegal per se,

538
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: but it certainly looks pretty sketchy our law enforcement looking

539
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 1: into this at all. I mean it difertly feels like

540
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: a kind of mobby situation here, right, We.

541
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 5: Don't know if law enforcements looking into it. I will

542
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 5: say it actually could be illegal. I mean, if it

543
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 5: turns out that Trump or somebody around him was doing

544
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 5: this with a provable intention to influence testimony, so legal.

545
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 5: For example, Roger Stone, who in an unrelated case several

546
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 5: years ago, got actually convicted of witness tamperring. He was

547
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 5: sending text to a witness making references to The Godfather

548
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 5: Part two, telling him to do what a character in

549
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 5: that movie did, who was who appears before Congress and

550
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 5: lies about organized crime. If you're texting people making references

551
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 5: to somebody that is known for lying as a witness,

552
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 5: you know, you can be convicted of witness tampering. The

553
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 5: Trump campaign did actually engage with us, said that it

554
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 5: was false that they were doing anything you know, that

555
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 5: could be regarded as tampering, although they also said something

556
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 5: that I found interesting, which is that they say that

557
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 5: Trump himself is really just not evolved in the decision

558
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 5: making around promotions, salary increases, bonuses. They argued that Trump

559
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 5: doesn't even know what people are being paid. We don't

560
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 5: really have any way to back check that at this point.

561
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 5: But if that is true, it's an incredible departure from

562
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 5: how Trump ran his business for many years. He was

563
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 5: well known for, you know, wanting to approve any expense

564
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 5: over a thousand dollars or something like that. Like really

565
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 5: the guy that was getting in the weeds of the finances.

566
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 5: So the campaign's saying that when it comes to the campaign,

567
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 5: Trump basically doesn't know anything about it, at least how

568
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 5: staff are being paid. It doesn't have any role making

569
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 5: those decisions.

570
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, people have used this defense for him before, right,

571
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: because we saw this in the Stormy Daniel's trial.

572
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, although I will say, I mean one of their

573
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 5: piece of context here is we sort of in the

574
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 5: story go through the recent history of incidents where there

575
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 5: were mist allegations that Trump or people around him were

576
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 5: trying to influence witnesses. And I think one striking example

577
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 5: was Trump himself on truth Social last year did a

578
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 5: post in which he explicitly told a Georgia politician who

579
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 5: had been called before the Georgia grand jury to not

580
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 5: appear before the grand jury. This is not my interpretation,

581
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 5: this is like explicitly the post says this politician has

582
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 5: been called before the Grand Jury.

583
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 3: He shouldn't appear.

584
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 5: It's not a wild idea that Trump would get involved

585
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 5: in trying to influence potential witnesses.

586
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 3: Done it.

587
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: This is what he does. Thank you so much for

588
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: joining us. This was really really great.

589
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 5: Thanks so much.

590
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 2: Jeff Goodell is the author of The Heat Will Kill

591
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: You First Life and Death on a Scorched Planet.

592
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, Jeff.

593
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 3: Padaw Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

594
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: So the book is called The Heat Will Kill You

595
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: First Life and Death on a Scorch Planet. You had

596
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: a brilliant op ed in the New York Times. Talk

597
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: to me about your central thesis here.

598
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 3: Well, my central thesis is that you know, extreme heat

599
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 3: is like a bug zapper, that it can kill you

600
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 3: very quickly, and most people don't understand that. And it's also,

601
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 3: as I describe in the book, the sort of primary

602
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 3: driver of kind of planetary chaos. When we think about

603
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 3: climate change and we think about sea level rise and

604
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 3: droughts and hurricanes and all that, all that stuff is

605
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 3: sort of driven by rising heat levels. So the book

606
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 3: tries to look at heat on two levels. One what

607
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 3: it does to your body, What those risks are and

608
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 3: how it kills you, and the other is how it

609
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 3: is creating this sort of climate chaos that we're all

610
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 3: living through right now.

611
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: So you've written on climate for twenty plus years, right,

612
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: I mean your first climate book was in two thousand, right, Acul, Like.

613
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 3: I've been writing about climate as long as climate has existed.

614
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: Talk to us about how thinking about climate has shifted

615
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: over that period.

616
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 3: Well, that's an interesting question. So in the very beginning,

617
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 3: you know, twenty five years ago, that's not the very

618
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 3: beginning of the climate story. So I just have been

619
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 3: aware of the risks of climate change for a long time.

620
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 3: The idea that burning fossil fuels creates CO two that

621
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 3: will warm the planet, you know, has been known for

622
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 3: more than one hundred years. None of this is new science.

623
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 3: But you know, when I started writing about this, like

624
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 3: more than twenty years ago, you know, it was basically

625
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 3: this was in the kind of heyday of what was

626
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 3: called the Greening Earth Society of the big oil companies

627
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 3: telling you that, you know, more CO two was good

628
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,719
Speaker 3: for the planet. It would make trees grow and plants

629
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 3: grow faster, so why worry? And then it moors into

630
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 3: this economic debate where if you believe in human progress

631
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 3: and you want the betterment of human welfare around the world,

632
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 3: people need energy, and the cheapest way to create energy

633
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 3: was by burning fossil fuels. So even if we had

634
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 3: climate change, you know, what's really important is getting cheap

635
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 3: at energy people. And that was part of the debate

636
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 3: for a long time. And now, of course renewable energy,

637
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 3: non fossil fuel energy is much cheaper than fossil fuel stuff,

638
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 3: so that argument, the greening Earth society argument is out

639
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 3: the window now. It become part of the kind of

640
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 3: culture wars, right, It's become you know, if you're a

641
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 3: real American, you burn fossil vuels. You know, it's become

642
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 3: part of that conversation, and the science of it doesn't

643
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 3: really matter anymore in the broader conversation.

644
00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: It's funny because when the pandemic came, husband lapsed, academic

645
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: was like, this is going to be it. Americans are

646
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,959
Speaker 1: going to see that scientists are right and that all

647
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: of these Republicans who you know, have these fabulous views

648
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 1: on science are just lying to them. A million deaths

649
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:27,280
Speaker 1: later are probably more plus plus that group never saw

650
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: the In fact, they are trying to prosecute doctor Anthony Fauci.

651
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 3: Now, yeah, exactly, And I think that's a great analogy.

652
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 3: And you know, when people ask me what do I

653
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 3: worry about most when we think about kind of the

654
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 3: superheated future that we're creating for ourselves, it's exactly that.

655
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 3: It's the complete pigeonholing of science, the complete attack on

656
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 3: the very kind of reality, shared reality that we have.

657
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 3: And the pandemic was a great example of that. We're

658
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 3: far less well prepared for the next one. We were

659
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,919
Speaker 3: for that one, very well prepared for that. Yeah, there's

660
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 3: a similar client of dynamic when we talked about climate

661
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 3: and energy.

662
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: So one of the things I want to talk about

663
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: is the thing that none of us probably could have

664
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: seen in two thousand was that renewables would get so

665
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: cheap they would actually maybe you could have seen it

666
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: because you were totally read in on this, but I

667
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: was twenty one. I want to brag about not being

668
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: as old as my kids think I am. But renewables

669
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: have become very, very cheap, And because they've become so cheap,

670
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: this has made it harder and harder to message their destruction.

671
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,720
Speaker 1: Am I correct? And they've sort of found a way anyway.

672
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: What do you mean message their destruction?

673
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 1: So the right hates renewables and it's terrified, But oil

674
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: and gas companies need to make a case that renewables

675
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: aren't as good as oil and gas, and they're having

676
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: a harder and harder time making it. And now they've

677
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: know they have this new thing. It's not either or,

678
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,479
Speaker 1: it's and right because the thinking is, let's just keep

679
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 1: oil and gas around as long as we can, because

680
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: eventually renewables are going to be so cheap oil and

681
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: gas isnt going to be able to thrive.

682
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, And you know I live in Austin, Texas.

683
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 3: You know, it's the belly of the fossil fuel beast,

684
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 3: and I spend a lot of time around oil and

685
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 3: gas people that way, and into my own reporting, it's

686
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 3: very clear that everybody who works in the oil and

687
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 3: gas industry knows that they are the whale oil of

688
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 3: our time. They know that their horizon is limited, that

689
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 3: they are not going to be around in the same

690
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 3: way that they have been to the last century in

691
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 3: the next few decades. So now there's this sort of

692
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 3: end game going on that is very powerful and very dangerous.

693
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 3: It's really about squeezing the last profits out of their reserves,

694
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 3: squeezing the last profits out of their investments, and dragging

695
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 3: out this inevitable transition as long as possible. Which you

696
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 3: might say, oh, well, what's the problem with that. So

697
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 3: instead of getting off of fossil fuels in ten years,

698
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 3: when we get off fossil fuels in thirty or forty years, Well,

699
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 3: the problem with that is that's a differension between a

700
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 3: kind of warming world that we can kind of manage,

701
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 3: and that warming world that where we have all hell

702
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 3: breaking loose, where we have inevitable collapses of ice sheets,

703
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 3: where we have one hundred and thirty degree extreme heat waves,

704
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 3: where we have mass deaths from these heat waves, where

705
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 3: we have changing disease patterns of malaria and all these

706
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 3: kinds of vector board diseases. I mean, there's a kind

707
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 3: of level of climate chaos that is inevitable if we

708
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 3: continue burning fossil fuels for several more decades. So this

709
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 3: really is a question of purgency and speed. And that's

710
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 3: why this conversation right now is it's so important when

711
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 3: we take about, you know, the kind of world we want.

712
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 1: To live in and I would add, we've already crossed

713
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: the rubicon to things being pretty bad.

714
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 3: We have, although I would argue that there's no real rubicon.

715
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, Yeah, those two degree projections or one degree

716
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: or one and a half degree, even those projections are

717
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: a radically different world.

718
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And one of the big truths is that you know,

719
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 3: the world that you know, you and I grew up in,

720
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 3: the climate that you and I grew up in, is gone,

721
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 3: and we are not going back to that climate. The

722
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 3: question is how bad is it going to get into

723
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 3: how different is it going to be in the future.

724
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 3: And I pushed back on the rubicon idea a little

725
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 3: bit because this notion of a tipping point, it's like, oh,

726
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 3: we're fine until we get to one point five C

727
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 3: or through C or you know one translate that into

728
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 3: fahrenheit three and a half de greece paraanhede of warming,

729
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 3: and then all of a sudden, oh, the world collapses.

730
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 3: You know, let's just go to the beach and party

731
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: because we're all screwed. Right. There are certainly tipping point

732
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 3: it's for particular ecosystems. There's a tipping point for the

733
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 3: West end Arctic ice sheet. There's a tipping point for

734
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 3: the Amazon rainforest. There's a tipping point for the insurance

735
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 3: industry in Florida, you know, but.

736
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: Yes, which has take exactly.

737
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, So there's all these sort of baller tipping points.

738
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 3: But the real truth is that you know, every ton

739
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 3: of CO two that we keep out of the atmosphere,

740
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 3: you know, reduces the warming a little bit, reduces the

741
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 3: impacts a little bit. Everyone that we add makes it

742
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 3: a little bit worse. There is no moment when we're

743
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 3: just all fucked and we may as well just give up.

744
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: Right, And I think that case against nihilism is really important.

745
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 1: The right and the oil companies and the people who

746
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 1: want to sell you this want you to feel that

747
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: it's a situation that's unfixable, or that it's a situation

748
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: that you have no control over, and that is not true.

749
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 3: It's not And it's also just to continue this thought

750
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 3: that it's also not true. What the oil companies the

751
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 3: right are trying to sell right now is that yes,

752
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 3: we even they would admit that, you know, renewable are

753
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 3: you know, solar and wind and hydrogen and all these

754
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 3: things are part of our future. But we can't go

755
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 3: too fast because our economy is so fragile, and if

756
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 3: we try to shift too soon, we're going to collapse

757
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 3: our economy. Renewables aren't cheap enough yet, they're not ready enough.

758
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 3: We can't do it. Well, that's all bullshit. I mean,

759
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 3: we have all of the technology we need to make

760
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 3: this transition very quickly. Nobody's arguing that we like shut

761
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 3: off all fossil fuels tomorrow. But you know, we can

762
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 3: make this transition much much faster. And the scare tastics

763
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 3: that the right and big oil and things are using

764
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 3: now are all about this sort of economic doom that

765
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 3: if we do this too fast, we're going to fuck

766
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 3: everything up.

767
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: Right, And that's I mean, and you hear Trump they

768
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: want to take away your cars, right right, that's an

769
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: easy scare tactic. Can you explain to us where methane

770
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: falls in this whole continuum of warming?

771
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,439
Speaker 3: Sure, methane is you know, basically essentially the same as

772
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 3: natural gas or fossil gas. You know, you asked me

773
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 3: about how the discussion about climate energy has changed over time,

774
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 3: and twenty years ago, the big bad fossil fuel was

775
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 3: coal because it's the most carbon intense and for all

776
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 3: intensive purposes. You know, we're not building more coal plants

777
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 3: in America. Coal uses down globally, and it's down very

778
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 3: fast in the Ued States.

779
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: Because it's so expensive.

780
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 3: It's so expensive and it's so hard to do. It's

781
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 3: i cost so much money to build a coal pland

782
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,919
Speaker 3: and you have trains and mines. It's just like it's

783
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 3: just also the nineteenth century. You know, you're crushing rocks

784
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 3: to burn them, you know what I mean. It's just

785
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 3: like it's so primitive. But so for a long time,

786
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 3: there was this idea that, oh, we're going to shift

787
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 3: from coal to gas, and the gas is the phrase

788
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 3: was bridged to the future. So there was this whole

789
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 3: notion that, well, we'll replace these coal plants with gas

790
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 3: and that'll be a big step forward, and then eventually

791
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 3: we'll replace the gas plants with toler and wind and everything,

792
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 3: and it'll the bias time for renewables to become cheap

793
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 3: and enough and technologically sophisticated enough to run our world. Well,

794
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 3: that is bullshit. Also, the problem with gas and methane

795
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 3: right now is that a lot of First of all,

796
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 3: a lot of new research has shown that in fact,

797
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 3: gas is not more climate safe than coal because methane

798
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 3: or gas if it leaks out of pipelines or out

799
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 3: of power plants, are out of drol heads or well heads.

800
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 3: It's a forty times more potent gas than CO two,

801
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 3: so the warming potential is huge, and there's a lot

802
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 3: of leaks. They've just launched a bunch of satellites to

803
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 3: help detect these fleaks and they're enormous. So that's one thing.

804
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 3: And the other thing is is infrastructure that's being built

805
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 3: for these gas plants, which is something that Biden just

806
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 3: recently alted the pause that permits for these liquified natural

807
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 3: gas plants to ship this stuff overseas. They know that

808
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 3: this step is going to be around for forty or

809
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 3: fifty years, so it's like building in the next generation

810
00:42:55,640 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 3: of fossil fuel infrastructure. And the argument is, well, are

811
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 3: we doing that because we know we have renewables, we

812
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 3: know they're cheaper, we know that you know they don't

813
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 3: have any of the kind of impacts that the gas has,

814
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 3: So why are we wasting our time and money with

815
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 3: this building this whole new gas infrasture.

816
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 1: Yeah?

817
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 3: Why, Well, because of political power. It's all apologic.

818
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: So let's talk about something that my husband is obsessed

819
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: with He told me about it, and now it is

820
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: like my top ten anxiety scenarios. Wet bulb heat. Explain

821
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,760
Speaker 1: to us about wet bulb heat because this is really

822
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: fucking scary.

823
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So wet bulb heat is essentially a measure

824
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 3: of heat and humidity combined. It's not so different than

825
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 3: than sort of heat index. There's another level of flexiting

826
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 3: this called the global wet bulb temperature, which takes into

827
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 3: account the amount of sunlight and wind speed and things

828
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 3: like that. But the idea is when we talk about temperature,

829
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 3: you know, that's just the sort of ambient temperature in

830
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,439
Speaker 3: the air. What really matters is what that temperature means

831
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 3: to our bodies and how our bodies function in these

832
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:12,399
Speaker 3: kinds of rising temperatures. And wet bulb temperature is an

833
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 3: idea that was actually sort of discovered or figured out

834
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 3: in the early twentieth century by some research groups who

835
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 3: are looking at why coal miners who were deep underground

836
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 3: were suffering from heat exhaustion and heat strokes, and they

837
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 3: came to understand that humidity as a big impact on

838
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 3: how we register temperature, because you know, think about it,

839
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 3: the only way that our bodies can release heat is

840
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 3: by sweat. When it gets hot, we sweat, and that

841
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 3: sweat takes the heat away from our bodies, dissipates it out,

842
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 3: and that's how we cool off. It's we're kind of

843
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 3: radiator system and that works at the air temperature is dry,

844
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 3: and the more humid it gets, the more difficulty it

845
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 3: is for that sweat to evaporate, and wet bulb temperature

846
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 3: tries to give you a reading of that. So the

847
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 3: higher the wet bulb temperature, the more humidity is in

848
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 3: the air, the more difficulty you have evaporating the sweat.

849
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 3: And that's why everyone knows who's been. If you've been

850
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 3: to Arizona and it's hundred degrees, it's very different than

851
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 3: being in Miami when it's d degrees. The Pope or

852
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 3: something like that. And the reason it's scary and dangerous

853
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 3: is because there are relatively low levels of If you

854
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 3: have a high wet bult temperature, which means the air

855
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 3: temperature might only be in the eighties or nineties, but

856
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 3: you have a high high eye levels of humidity, those

857
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 3: can be very very dangerous very quickly. And there's a

858
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 3: threshold of around ninety five degrees wet bul temperature where

859
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 3: even a healthy human outdoors, you know, for five or

860
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 3: six hours will die. Our bodies will just overheat. It's

861
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,399
Speaker 3: like the turkey cooking levels for humans, you know. And

862
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 3: parts of the world are approaching that now already, and

863
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 3: you know, we're certainly heading in that direction. And in

864
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,720
Speaker 3: my book I talked about this idea of the Goldilog zone.

865
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 3: But all living things on Earth evolved a function in

866
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 3: this certain threshold of temperature. And when we get to

867
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 3: these wet bolt temperatures in the nineties, we are getting

868
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 3: out of the Goldilock zone. And that's when we either

869
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 3: get somewhere cooler quickly or we die. It's very shutforward.

870
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 1: See, Now, this is a really good thing to be

871
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 1: anxious about.

872
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 3: Yes, it is a good thing to be anxious.

873
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: Not to pat myself on the back here, but this

874
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 1: is actually a real fucking problem, and there are parts

875
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: of this world where we're going to see this temperature soon.

876
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 3: Well, I'm really glad you say that this is a

877
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 3: real fucking problem, because it really is. Because there's a

878
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 3: lot of people who say, well, why are you worried

879
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 3: about this? You have air conditioning, you know, you'll be okay,

880
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 3: just crank it up a little bit more and just

881
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 3: don't go outside when it's really oh and okay, great,

882
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 3: that's fine maybe for you and for me on a

883
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 3: particular day. But the first of all, the op ed

884
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 3: I wrote earlier this week in The Times talks about

885
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 3: how places that are more dependent upon air conditioning, like Phoenix,

886
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 3: where you have virtually one hundred percent air conditioning, are

887
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 3: probably be vulnerable when you have a blackout, right, And

888
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 3: you know, heat waves stress the grid because everybodystrom their

889
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 3: air conditioning on and it makes the mechanics of the

890
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 3: grid more fragile. Things like that. So blackouts are much

891
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 3: more likely during heat waves. And if you have a

892
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 3: big blackout during a heat wave in a highly air

893
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 3: conditioned city, you have mass deaths suddenly. I mean, this

894
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 3: study that that I cided show thirteen more than thirteen

895
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 3: thousand people dying in Phoenix within forty eight hours with

896
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 3: a blackout during a high heat wave event. And so

897
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 3: this idea of a heat wave that air conditioning is

898
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 3: going to save us, it's like this sort of damicles

899
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 3: hanging over ahead.

900
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: You know, you know, there are people day labors in

901
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 1: Dubai who are going to die, maybe before the people

902
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: in Phoenix, though not necessarily, right, but ultimately we're all

903
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: going to die of this if it gets hot enough.

904
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there are se one hundred and fifty

905
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 3: million people on the planet who don't have access to electricity,

906
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 3: much less air conditioning. Right. And also, we're not going

907
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 3: to air condition the oceans, so you know, as they

908
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 3: heat up, are already dying off in there that you know,

909
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,959
Speaker 3: we've had the fourth mass coral bleaching event this year.

910
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 3: We're not going to air condition the forests where you know,

911
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 3: we have how their monkeys dropping out of trees, and

912
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 3: then right now in Mexico because of extreme heat waves

913
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 3: that are just dropping dead out of the forest. We're

914
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 3: not going to air condition the fields where you know,

915
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 3: their food crops grow, so we're gonna have crop failures,

916
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 3: which is going to lead to political problems and all that.

917
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 3: So this is a much bigger problem than just something

918
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 3: like well, just get a better air conditioner everything, you'll

919
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 3: be fine.

920
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: Thank you, Jeff, just horrifying us.

921
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 3: Well, thanks for indulging in that order. Molly, no moment fuck.

922
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:49,879
Speaker 1: I would like a moment of fuck.

923
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 4: Right, Well, is gentleman, this Moment of Fuckery is brought

924
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 4: to you by Harlan Crow Sugar down Each to the stars. Look,

925
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,280
Speaker 4: Clarence Thomas has now been revealed to have accepted four

926
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 4: million dollars in gifts, in perks and trips and visits

927
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 4: to the Bohemian Grove. Not on, I said, Alex Jones's

928
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:15,280
Speaker 4: brain on a fact, four million dollars. He's the only

929
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 4: member of the Supreme Court where there are five zeros

930
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 4: after the numbers of these gifts. He is corrupt. He

931
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 4: has been corrupted. This is an obvious ethical violation. No

932
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 4: other member of the Court is even in the ballpark

933
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,240
Speaker 4: of accepting this kind of billionaire largesse. And I'm sorry

934
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 4: for people who are diehard Clearance Thomas stands. This guy

935
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 4: is corrupt. And if this was again, if this was

936
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 4: flip the script, if Katanji Brown Jackson was taking five

937
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 4: hundred thousand dollars vacations with George Sorows, the Republicans would

938
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 4: burn down Washington to the driver out of the court.

939
00:49:57,719 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 4: This is my moment of fuckery.

940
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 1: Amazing, Thank you, Rick Wilson.

941
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 4: As always, the pleasure is mine.

942
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

943
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds

944
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

945
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

946
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,720
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.