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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily and this and this is stuff

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Speaker 1: Mom never told you, And today I am really stoked

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Speaker 1: for the conversation we're going to have around a term

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Speaker 1: that I actually have to admit. As much as I

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Speaker 1: read about, think about, and write about women's issues and feminism,

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Speaker 1: I had only recently stumbled upon this term benevolent sexism.

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Speaker 1: So I think what's funny is that the initials of

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Speaker 1: it are b s, because that's exactly what it is,

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Speaker 1: total b s. And I'm excited to talk through what

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Speaker 1: the heck benevolent sexism actually is, what it looks like.

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Speaker 1: And I think of it almost as like sexism light

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Speaker 1: diet sexism. Yeah, totally diet sexism, because it seems palatable,

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Speaker 1: it seems harmless, it seems like almost politeness. But sometimes

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Speaker 1: we have to uh, as women especially but as men

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Speaker 1: and women recognize and call out the harmful sexism that

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Speaker 1: is benevolent sexistem So this really became on my radar,

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Speaker 1: became more of my collective consciousness around this issue. With

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Speaker 1: Vice President Mike Pence, you may recall a few months

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Speaker 1: ago there was an article popping up about his policy

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Speaker 1: around not dining with women in his office alone. Okay,

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Speaker 1: can I just say how creepy that is? That was

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Speaker 1: the cree And in college I had a professor who

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Speaker 1: had a policy where he would not have office hours

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Speaker 1: alone with a female student, and so he would have

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Speaker 1: male students in his office alone, no problem. But if

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Speaker 1: you were a female student in the office hours, like

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Speaker 1: in the library or the coffee shop, and it's not

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Speaker 1: me to be so strange, like you can't be alone

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Speaker 1: with me because I'm a female, a female student of yours,

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Speaker 1: Like we have to go to a public place otherwise,

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Speaker 1: what Well, that's the thing, right, And what came out

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Speaker 1: of that kerfuffle with with the Veep's office is that

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of offices here in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: But also I'm sure we're on college campuses where that's

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Speaker 1: become a policy, well intended to keep women safe, well

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Speaker 1: intended to keep people from talking about rumors about what

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Speaker 1: it might mean if a woman's alone with her boss

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Speaker 1: or with her professor. But that's actually not good, not good.

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Speaker 1: It's not good because it prevents women from being in

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Speaker 1: first of all, treated as equals, which is really people,

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Speaker 1: and second of all of being um having the same

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Speaker 1: access to v I P. S. So if the v

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Speaker 1: I he in your office, your boss, you're elected official,

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Speaker 1: who you're serving, can't be alone with you, can't have

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Speaker 1: dinner with you, and in his case it was unless

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Speaker 1: his wife was present. Um, then what does that mean

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Speaker 1: about the relationship building that can happen that's essential to

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Speaker 1: women's career success? And I think I think you really

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Speaker 1: hit the nail on the head and that, like, think

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Speaker 1: about all of the access that you get when you're

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Speaker 1: able to have that one on one time with your boss,

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Speaker 1: with the decision maker, with somebody important, right like if

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Speaker 1: you were I think that women are kind of excluded

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Speaker 1: from a lot of that in other ways to where

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh, the men in the office are going

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Speaker 1: to go to you know, a strip club or something

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Speaker 1: like that. Like I think there there was a big

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Speaker 1: example of that recently, I think with Uber where they

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Speaker 1: went to a a I think it was a strip

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Speaker 1: club and the women in the office came but felt,

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Speaker 1: you know, very uncomfortable, made complaints and that if you

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Speaker 1: are you know, how many ways can Uber get that wrong? Honestly?

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Speaker 1: How many headlines do is ub have to have before

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Speaker 1: they just call it a day. We'll find out we're

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Speaker 1: keeping our running list. If Lift wants to call us

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Speaker 1: and sponsor the podcast, I would gladly accept that call

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Speaker 1: because is uber needs to shape up or ship out exactly.

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Speaker 1: So let's let's break this down a little bit because, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're going to talk about the intricacies of

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Speaker 1: why this can get even more complicated. But the ironic

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Speaker 1: part about benevolent sexism is that the people who perpetuated

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Speaker 1: are some are often doing so with women's best interests

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Speaker 1: at heart, and so it can it can feel well

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Speaker 1: intended and yet totally dehumanizing for women. So it actually

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Speaker 1: this term benevolent sexism was coined in with a study

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Speaker 1: done by Peter Glick and Susan Fisk. There were a

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Speaker 1: paper on this concept that they called ambivalent sexism, and

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Speaker 1: in that paper they defined two kinds of sexism. Hostile

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Speaker 1: sexism is what most of us think of when we

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Speaker 1: think about sexism. Angry explicitly negative attitudes towards women. So

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Speaker 1: this angry menimist you know, men's rights style, uh sexism,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty overt. But the kind of guy you find

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Speaker 1: on the internet who like clearly hates women, like has

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Speaker 1: a problem with women because they're women, um, which is

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Speaker 1: a whole different category than what we're talking about today.

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Speaker 1: And in the paper they went on to say, quote,

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Speaker 1: we define benevolent sexism as a set of interrelated attitudes

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Speaker 1: towards women that are sexist in terms of viewing women

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Speaker 1: stereotypically and in restricted roles, but that are subjectively positive

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Speaker 1: in feeling or in feeling and tone for the perceiver,

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Speaker 1: and also tend to elicit behaviors typically categorized as pro

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Speaker 1: social like helping or intimacy seeking like self disclosure, meaning

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Speaker 1: they basically are are taking care of women, right, So

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Speaker 1: these are behaviors like, well, I don't you know, women

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Speaker 1: need my protection, Women need my caring and support and

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Speaker 1: to be caring and supportive and protective of women, We're

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Speaker 1: not going to ask you to join us at the

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Speaker 1: golf club after work for this meeting, because that's no

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Speaker 1: place for you, no place for a little lady, no

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Speaker 1: place for a little lady, a little lass like you.

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Speaker 1: And it's like that verbal pat on the head that

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Speaker 1: is so dismissive and so dehumanizing and has real ramifications.

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Speaker 1: It does, and I think it's you know, when I

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Speaker 1: was reading the research for this episode, I was really

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Speaker 1: sort of struck by the way it operates along a

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Speaker 1: similar access of like race, where everyone knows that, like,

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Speaker 1: there are racists out there who are you know, they hate,

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Speaker 1: they hate people of color. They they you know, have

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Speaker 1: these negative attitudes about people of color. But then there's

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Speaker 1: another kind of racism where it's like, oh, Latino women

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Speaker 1: are so fiery, or black people are great dancers, right,

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Speaker 1: like where it's like proci feeling but actually sold told,

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Speaker 1: routed in sort of ugly race related stereotyps exactly, And

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Speaker 1: it's easy to have happen. It's easy for for people

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Speaker 1: to fall into that trap. So I think it's important

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Speaker 1: for us to be able to recognize it. And also

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Speaker 1: that intersection of a net ent sexism and racism that

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Speaker 1: came up in the research It's wild, which blew my

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Speaker 1: mind was this idea of like men need to protect women.

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Speaker 1: This is like way back hopefully not a thing anymore.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it is in some places, but um, that

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Speaker 1: idea of like, we white men need to protect our

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Speaker 1: women from scary you know, black men in the neighborhood,

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Speaker 1: right And it's funny. It's it's not funny, it's horrifying

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Speaker 1: how much of our sort of cultural norms are built

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Speaker 1: into this idea that, like, you know, black men and

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Speaker 1: white women living together, we must protect white women, we

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Speaker 1: must protect white womanhood at all costs, even if, like

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Speaker 1: ultimately it's actually bad for the woman. And I also

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Speaker 1: think what's so fascinating about the fact that this is

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Speaker 1: sort of rooted at a kind of race according to

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Speaker 1: the study racism, is that it totally erases black womanhood

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Speaker 1: from the mix. Right, And so if all, if this

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Speaker 1: entire cultural norm is based around white men protecting white

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Speaker 1: women from black men like whereen and totally erased from

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Speaker 1: the mix, yeah, which is unfortunately common. I think the

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Speaker 1: more stations around race and gender and man, we've got

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Speaker 1: a lot more to talk about on that. There's like

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Speaker 1: seventeen other episodes in there. We should just like we

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Speaker 1: should have a couple episodes on intersectional feminism one oh

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Speaker 1: one mo wait forward, but well we'll we'll go there

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Speaker 1: and and listeners let us know if that's something you

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Speaker 1: want to hear more about as well, because it will

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Speaker 1: be part of every conversation. I think that prision I

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Speaker 1: have I love I want to bring attention to this

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Speaker 1: op ed penned by a dude named Clarence Page that

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Speaker 1: was titled When Politeness Closes career Doors to Women, which

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Speaker 1: really unpacked the troubling nature of Pence's dinner policy. And

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Speaker 1: I think put at, you know, put in clear terms

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Speaker 1: just how challenging and troubling and negative even these seemingly

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Speaker 1: positive twists on sexism can actually be. He said, quote,

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Speaker 1: people do talk. I'd agree, like they've talked about definitely

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Speaker 1: you and your boss hanging out so low. But how

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Speaker 1: much should we care? Efforts to avoid the possibility of

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Speaker 1: gossip should not require the certainty of unfairness, right which

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Speaker 1: I that was so clear? He said. Listen, treating any

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Speaker 1: employee differently on account of gender is probably illegal under

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Speaker 1: the civil rights laws that Congress has passed. And yet

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Speaker 1: here's Pen's basically overtly stating, here's how we treat women

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Speaker 1: explicitly differently. And so there's no girls allowed policy anywhere.

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Speaker 1: It's like, not okay, And that's obvious. And I think

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Speaker 1: what's so striking about this this piece is that it

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Speaker 1: really drives home the fact that ultimately it is hurting women,

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Speaker 1: right like, even if it's even if I think what

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Speaker 1: things like this. What's important to keep in mind is

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Speaker 1: that intentions are great, but they don't really matter. And

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Speaker 1: so even if you are well intentioned, you're doing this

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Speaker 1: because you don't want, you know, people to gossip about

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Speaker 1: your relationship and like all of that. Even if you're

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Speaker 1: doing it with good intentions, you're actually you know, not

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Speaker 1: treating your you know, a woman like an equal. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's what we're asking for exactly. So we

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Speaker 1: have to look at the outcomes, even when the intention

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Speaker 1: their pure, we have to look at the outcomes. I

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Speaker 1: think that's true in your office policy, in our public policy,

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Speaker 1: in our own personal policy, and being willing to be

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Speaker 1: open minded when you're proceeding with the best of intentions,

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Speaker 1: but get feedback that says, hey, this is how this

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Speaker 1: actually affects me as a woman in your office. I

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Speaker 1: feel left out these conversations totally. UM. I have an

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Speaker 1: interesting example which is like very sort of small scale,

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Speaker 1: I think, but I was just reading it. UM. I

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Speaker 1: love reading advice columns and like advice blogs, and there

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Speaker 1: was really it's my like I could like Dear Polly

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Speaker 1: and a shout out to Slate, UM my favorite one.

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Speaker 1: I like that one. I could read them forever. They're

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Speaker 1: so good. But there was one that is, there're all women,

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Speaker 1: They're all women. We need to do an episode on that.

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Speaker 1: I'm discribbling sound advice. Are there any advice columns written

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Speaker 1: by men? That's a good question, um, But yeah, So

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Speaker 1: it's a woman writing in and she says that she

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Speaker 1: works on the top floor of her buildinging and that

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Speaker 1: you know, usually in the elevator it's a mix of

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Speaker 1: men and women. It's a very crowded elevator, and that

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Speaker 1: one of her co workers is always going out of

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Speaker 1: his way to make sure the women get off the

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Speaker 1: elevator first. But actually this tends to create kind of

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Speaker 1: like confusing and like awkward, you know, just logistical situations

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Speaker 1: where people are moving out of the way and getting

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Speaker 1: off the elevator, and he doesn't do it for the men.

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Speaker 1: And basically she's like, I know that he's doing it

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Speaker 1: because it's a polite. He thinks it's a polite thing

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Speaker 1: to do, but it's actually like yeah, he thinks, but

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Speaker 1: it is actually like creating a kind of using an

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Speaker 1: awkward situation for everybody else. And basically she's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it will be different if he did it for everybody,

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Speaker 1: men and women. But I don't think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: this dumb kind of gender throwback thing should be like

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Speaker 1: making everybody's elevator time more complicated and more difficult. And

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Speaker 1: it's interesting, it's interesting how so many of these little

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Speaker 1: things are rooted in trying to be nice to like

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Speaker 1: delicate women. What do you think about opening doors for women?

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Speaker 1: What do you think about it? Well, I somehow I

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Speaker 1: read this studies somewhere that when women hold doors open

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Speaker 1: for men, men feel negative about it. I don't know

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Speaker 1: where it was, so I try to track it down

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Speaker 1: and then put it in the notes. But I think

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Speaker 1: that popped up on my radar a couple of months ago,

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Speaker 1: and I just did that today on my way here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so actually it was fascinating. So I was leaving lunch

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Speaker 1: at this like grab and go type Mediterranean place and

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Speaker 1: a man was holding the door open in front of

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Speaker 1: me because he was coming in. I was leaving, but

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Speaker 1: this man, another man, man number two, was in front

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Speaker 1: of me, also leaving. This one guy holding the door open.

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Speaker 1: He's clearly standing there with the door open. There's a

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Speaker 1: guy in front of me leaving, and the guy in

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Speaker 1: front of me pushed the other door, went to push

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Speaker 1: the other door open. Why didn't want the other guy

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Speaker 1: to hold the door open for him? Funny enough, that

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Speaker 1: door that he just went to push was locked. So

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Speaker 1: I'm watching this all go down, and the guy was

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Speaker 1: holding the door open just as this little smirk on

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Speaker 1: his face. The other guy attempts to go in his

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Speaker 1: own way and open his own damn door. And then

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Speaker 1: I walked past. You know, I leave as well, and

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Speaker 1: I say thank you to the guy. So it's like,

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Speaker 1: I know a lot of women who like are offended

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Speaker 1: by the door opening, and this is what it goes

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Speaker 1: back to being treated different, right, So hold the damn

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Speaker 1: door open for men and women, and you're not perpetuating

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Speaker 1: benevolence sex as them, because we don't want to be

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Speaker 1: treated different. Exactly. I'm not a little fragilating, right, I

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Speaker 1: can open a door, so, like I was curious to

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Speaker 1: get your cakes. So for me, my my policy on

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Speaker 1: door opening. And I get that this is a very

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Speaker 1: out there policy. I don't like it when anybody opens

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Speaker 1: the door for me because I feel like, you know

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Speaker 1: that feeling that you get when I feel like it's

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Speaker 1: like they want you to be like, thank you, oversized way.

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Speaker 1: Also like my number is exchanged for that. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: also hate it when you're walking kind of slow and

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Speaker 1: someone's holding the door and like you're supposed to like

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Speaker 1: kind of huffle to get there faster, door open, when

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Speaker 1: I have to wait a second, even if someone's like

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Speaker 1: two steps, I don't mind it, but I'm always in

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Speaker 1: my mind it's like right now, or at least like

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Speaker 1: that's it. There's a performative aspect that works even if

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Speaker 1: you're not going any faster. You have to like pretend,

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Speaker 1: and then the other person feels it is a weird.

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Speaker 1: It's a weird thing, a weird society thing, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like I've tried to like opt out of a

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Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah, that's so good. I mean, just go

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Speaker 1: extra slow. And then it crosses that threshold into how

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Speaker 1: long I'm willing to wait, and that's awkward where it's,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, Okay, what the hell are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: We're talking about envolent sexes. The actually you know it

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Speaker 1: now would be a good time to take a break,

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Speaker 1: and then when we come back, we'll talk about how

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Speaker 1: benevolent sexism is actually linked to heightened levels of violence

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Speaker 1: against women in general. So we'll be right back after

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Speaker 1: a word from our sponsors. All right, So we're talking

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Speaker 1: through benevolent sexism and how even though it looks like

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Speaker 1: the nicest form of being a misogynist so sweet, it's

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Speaker 1: still it's still sexism. Sweet, sexism is still in fact sexism.

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Speaker 1: So I found that this this report here that we

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Speaker 1: came across from the Harvard Business School on Gender and

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Speaker 1: Work really shown a light on how very not innocuous

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Speaker 1: benevolent sexism can be. Right. And so again we're sort

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Speaker 1: of talking about it in terms of being this like

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Speaker 1: nice form of sexism that's sort of rooted in wanting

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Speaker 1: to protect women, but it's actually, according to the study,

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Speaker 1: been linked to you know, violence against women. So, according

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Speaker 1: to a report for the Harvard Business School's Gender and

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Speaker 1: Work Conference, countries with more benevolent sexism also tend to

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Speaker 1: have more overt hostile sexism. In addition, places where people

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Speaker 1: hold more benevolently sexist beliefs to out fewer women in

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Speaker 1: government and business leadership roles. Furthermore, women who buy in

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Speaker 1: the benevolent sex them because a bit more hostility toward

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Speaker 1: women who buck gender roles that I find really compelling totally.

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Speaker 1: So again you're thinking of this as like being really nice,

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Speaker 1: but actually it's a sign of something is amiss, right

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Speaker 1: that people that you're in a society, or people have

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Speaker 1: negative views about women, and women are being treated not

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Speaker 1: just sort of benevolently in a sexist way, but overtly

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Speaker 1: in a sexist way. And that's again like hostility towards women.

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Speaker 1: Are just outright treating women badly, but their linked you

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Speaker 1: know the words. It looks like it's not such a

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Speaker 1: bad thing. But anyone who's like and this is I

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Speaker 1: find at the end of that quote, because the idea

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Speaker 1: that women who buy into benevolent sexism can perpetuate these

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Speaker 1: negative stereotypes to totally totally resonates with me. Because still,

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Speaker 1: I mean, my most feminist friends will say, Oh, these

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Speaker 1: are just the boys playing video games. Is just what

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Speaker 1: boys do. This is what comes of being you know,

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Speaker 1: they're playing seven hours of shoot them up video games.

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Speaker 1: Solid that's just what you get with with guys and

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Speaker 1: living with guys. Or my friend and and former roommate

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Speaker 1: would be like, oh, I can't reach that. Can you

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Speaker 1: help me? It's just a little old me here, I

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Speaker 1: need a handy. I'm big, strong, handyman. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying like that's not true for you, but the idea

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Speaker 1: of connecting your gender to these underlying rates or the

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Speaker 1: man's gender to these preconceived notions of what comes with

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Speaker 1: that can be really like beyond annoying. It can be

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Speaker 1: really messed up, and it can actually, I think, create

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Speaker 1: the sense of learned helplessness totally totally. And I think

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Speaker 1: that like because I heard a little bit of myself

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Speaker 1: in that like impression of your roommate that you were

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Speaker 1: doing because I have this, I have this thing where

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Speaker 1: I hate bugs until if there's a bug in the

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Speaker 1: mix or not going around it, I like, I mean

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Speaker 1: I like bugs to just live and let live. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying yeah exactly, I don't want them in

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Speaker 1: my house. So when I see one, I'm I couldn't

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Speaker 1: retreat into this like I don't have to do this

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Speaker 1: because I'm a girl, right right, and know what's it's

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Speaker 1: better to say like I don't have to I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to do this because me bridget as an individual

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Speaker 1: and not cooled bugs when you connect it with like

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Speaker 1: the gender, like oh can you kill this bug? Because

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Speaker 1: I'm simply a meek, healthless woman who can handle a bug, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: that's a different thing. And so I think it takes reminders,

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Speaker 1: like I have to remind myself that like it's about,

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Speaker 1: you know, individuals and letting individual giving individuals the freedom

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Speaker 1: to you know, express who they are on their own terms, right,

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Speaker 1: and not sort of making it about you know, matter

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Speaker 1: of course men are gonna play video games because all

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Speaker 1: men do that, Right of course women are going to

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Speaker 1: do X y Z because that's how women are. It's

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Speaker 1: just an oversimplification that is dehumanizing, you know. But this brilliantly,

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Speaker 1: and I think is maybe the woman who first raised

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Speaker 1: my awareness on benevolent sexism is our pal Liz Playing,

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Speaker 1: a friend of the show. She's amazing. You might know

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Speaker 1: her from her great work on teen Ish, her show

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Speaker 1: for vox Um, and her long history of reporting with

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Speaker 1: Mike Um. But recently she sat down with the amazing

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Speaker 1: uh Dylan Marin of Seriously TV and she shot it down.

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Speaker 1: She broke down the whole misconception of benevolent sexism being

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Speaker 1: benign by just saying, and I thought she put this

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Speaker 1: so simply and so perfectly. You know, we as women

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Speaker 1: don't want to be treated differently. We want to be

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Speaker 1: treated equally, and we need to remember that, and we

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Speaker 1: need to focus on the outcomes of difference, right when

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Speaker 1: when otherness yields negative outcomes that shut women out, that

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Speaker 1: put women in a box, or putting men in a box,

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Speaker 1: And that's an unfair, outdated, frankly stereotype. And I think

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Speaker 1: it goes so it goes back so well to what

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Speaker 1: you were just saying about sort of, you know, the

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Speaker 1: freedom to express. Individuals need to be able to express

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Speaker 1: themselves regardless of gender. And like when you make it

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Speaker 1: about you know, all women do this or all men

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Speaker 1: do that, those are the kinds of things that make

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Speaker 1: it hard for people to get out of these gender boxes.

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Speaker 1: So if you want to have a society where you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's positive for men to write like,

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Speaker 1: I think that men are often often kind of imprisoned

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Speaker 1: by this idea that men have to be this way

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Speaker 1: or that way the same way that women are. And

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Speaker 1: so I think if you want a society where that

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Speaker 1: is not the case, is we have to keep this

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Speaker 1: in mind. And it is tough, Like I think that

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Speaker 1: we all need a reminder we fall into that. And

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Speaker 1: I think you know, my my best friends and I

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Speaker 1: and the Boo and I have gotten more comfortable challenging

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Speaker 1: each other's assumptions by saying, well, what do you mean

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Speaker 1: by that? You know? Or I thought, you know, gender

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Speaker 1: wasn't a restriction, you know what I mean? Like, there's

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at some of these underlying beliefs behind benevolent sexism,

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Speaker 1: and one of them is I love women. And I

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Speaker 1: love women sounds like an innocuous feminist thing to say.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like something my feminist friends might say, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I hate working with men. I just want to with

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Speaker 1: all women. And you're like, wow, that's not okay. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't help when we say all women are or all

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Speaker 1: men are, whether you're saying negative or positive there. I

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Speaker 1: I dislike that aspect of benevolent sexism, that I love

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Speaker 1: women thing so much, like I've I feel like I

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Speaker 1: have seen that sort of like and it does. It

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Speaker 1: does sound nice, but I mean, like I love women,

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Speaker 1: although I like women are a brand that you can

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Speaker 1: be a fan of, right like I I yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And it's like the idea that you can say like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I love women, and that that means that you can't

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Speaker 1: like you know, have hostility to women or not respect

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Speaker 1: to me. It's kind of related to this idea. Like

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Speaker 1: a couple of months ago, UM that filmmaker Nate Parker

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Speaker 1: that he was involved in the entire thing about his past, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, sexual abuse of a classmate, and when he

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Speaker 1: was called out at it, he was like, I love women.

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Speaker 1: I have I have daughters, right like I have a

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Speaker 1: you know, I have a sister. Like this idea that like,

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Speaker 1: as men, if you have some sort of close personal

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Speaker 1: relationship with a daughter, your wife, your mom, that luck

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Speaker 1: quote unquote love of women exactly means that you can't

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Speaker 1: have hostile you know, add and I hate it like

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Speaker 1: I saw it um quite a while ago during the

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Speaker 1: GUP debates, and one of those throwaway questions that they

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Speaker 1: were asked was if you could pick one woman to

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Speaker 1: go on the twenty dollar bill, who would you pick?

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Speaker 1: And so many of them were like, oh, my wife,

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Speaker 1: my daughter, And I remember thinking like, it's not I

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Speaker 1: know that you mean it in a complimentary way, but

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Speaker 1: like the fact that you can't name another notable woman

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Speaker 1: other than like someone in your own family is troubling,

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Speaker 1: does not make it seem like you love women. Or

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Speaker 1: like respect women's contributors exactly, and you know our country exactly, America,

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Speaker 1: you know pez Well, I think that's I think that's

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Speaker 1: a really good point. I'm also starting to feel self

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Speaker 1: conscious about this because I have in the past ben

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Speaker 1: chaw lenge by you know, mixed gender audiences that I'm

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Speaker 1: working with on combating unconscious bias. Let's say that's one

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Speaker 1: of my signature talks that I give at companies, and

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Speaker 1: recently was working with an I T company in the

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Speaker 1: finance and defense industries. Cybersecurity meets finance meets gender, right,

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Speaker 1: so they were that was the topic of the game.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot already. So I'm looking on the audience

428
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: and it's like mostly male, mostly pale, mostly above the

429
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 1: age of fifty. And here's Emily from to give us

430
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: a little chat about combating unconscious gender bias. And I

431
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 1: remember thinking I had to defend myself by saying things

432
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 1: like I love men, I have brothers, I you know,

433
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 1: I have a boyfriend, to make it like more that

434
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 1: I'm I'm not. Yeah, And now I'm unpacking that and

435
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 1: thinking that is messed up and like, but it's interesting

436
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: that you felt like you had to like you had

437
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 1: to credential yourself in that way. I'm I'm maybe talking

438
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: about under bias. I don't hate men, right, And to

439
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 1: be fair, I didn't open with that that was like

440
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 1: in the Q and A portion, But I just think

441
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: we remember afterwards talking with people about Hannah Rosen from

442
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 1: the Atlantic and her great research and her great ted talk,

443
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 1: which you know, her book was called The End of Men,

444
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: which is maybe the most hyperbolic title ever, but she

445
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: talks about how unconscious bias is troubling for men and

446
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: little boys, especially for whom we have like a learning

447
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: crisis in our school systems right now. Blah blah blah.

448
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: I was trying to make myself clear that feminism is

449
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 1: good for everyone, but I did. I had that. You know,

450
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: this benevolent kind of of sexism can feel like a

451
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 1: kind of a throwaway shortcut of proving yourself totallys woke

452
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 1: when you are just cutting corners in a way that

453
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 1: totally totally and I think that I just want to

454
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 1: underscore that point that like this is something that we all,

455
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: like I struggled with, that you struggled with. I think

456
00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: it's something and that's like the trip of a gender

457
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: that's say, was like raise or other things that we

458
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: deal with, right, Like we are constantly unpacking, constantly confronting,

459
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 1: even in ourselves. And so I went through a phase

460
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 1: where I was really into like arguing with dudes on Twitter,

461
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 1: and I remember it was it was a holiday weekend

462
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: when I got into a long hour's long argument about

463
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 1: Ghostbusters and I kept feeling like them, um and you know,

464
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: I sort of felt myself. I felt like I was

465
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: coming off as a quote unquote shrill feminist, and so

466
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: I kept sort of feeling like I needed to be like,

467
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: you know, ying qualifying it and like making myself seem

468
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: very jovial, very you know, like oh I'm one of

469
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: the boys, Like I'm not one of those angry femin Yeah, relatable.

470
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: That's b S. I shouldn't have to, you know, I

471
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: shouldn't have to fall back on this like lazy understanding

472
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 1: of gender and talking about gender just to like credential

473
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 1: myself as not as like not one of these threatening,

474
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: you know people who hates man exactly. I didn't want

475
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 1: to be a black woman exactly. I think that's that's

476
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: good to to acknowledge. And I mean I hope that

477
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: everyone here at sminting knows that we when we say

478
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: we want to be treated like equals and humans, that

479
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: includes all of our flaws and all of our weaknesses

480
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,479
Speaker 1: and all of our stumbles. And I think the more

481
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: like honest and canon we can be about that, I mean,

482
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 1: you know, we're imperfect humans, and so let's let's figure

483
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: this out. So so I hope that we can sort

484
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: of all get better together, we can all boss up

485
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: and feminist. Yeah, don't you see the more you know,

486
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: star going across the screen, do do do? Do? I

487
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: love it that I'm getting nostalgic for, like my CBS

488
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: station twenty five years ago. So we're going to talk

489
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: about some ways that you can actually combat this kind

490
00:26:54,440 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: of sexism after this quick break. So we're just talking

491
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: about all the ways that benevolent sexism rears. Its ugly

492
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 1: but well meaning, but also ugly and troubling. It's politely

493
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 1: ugly head and so we wanted to just talk through

494
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: a couple of ways that you can combat this because

495
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 1: it's something that we all, I think, deal with. So

496
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: the first is call it out, so you know, when

497
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: someone makes an assumption about you rooted in your gender,

498
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 1: don't be afraid to pause and point that out. And

499
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: so one of the ways that I see this play

500
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: out a lot is um when you're doing like organizing

501
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: work and having meetings and things like that, someone has

502
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: to be note taker. And so usually it'll be like,

503
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: you know, if you've ever been in a situation like that,

504
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 1: and always like, oh, well, the assumption is that the

505
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: woman is going to have good handwriting, she's going to

506
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 1: be a good active listener and be a great note taker.

507
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: And so, you know, we had a policy where when

508
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: someone asked a woman to be a note taker, we

509
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 1: explicitly expected a man to be like, no, we always

510
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 1: make women take notes, and that's not cool, and so

511
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: as a man, I'm gonna take notes, so don't be

512
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: afraid to call it out. I once saw like a

513
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: really hilarious thing on Twitter where someone was in like

514
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: high school working on a group project and a guy

515
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 1: had been like, take notes on this, and then the

516
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: woman had been like the female students, and then when

517
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: she turned the notebook around, it just said, I'm not

518
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: your goddamn secretary. Oh man, oh my god, please listeners,

519
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: please do that and tell me how it goes. Let's

520
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: take a photo of that and like you're surreptitious notes.

521
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: I love this, So there's just reminds you that Bustle

522
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: article too. I'm like seven ways to respond to benevolent sexism,

523
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: which will include in the notes here. She says, when

524
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: you're given quote women's work, I know that it's okay

525
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: to say now, right. So when someone says, oh, girls

526
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: are good at this, right, you you ladies take care

527
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: of this? What do your party planning committee? Right? Just

528
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: like the office, all the women or the party, it's

529
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: okay to say no. Um. What's so interesting about that

530
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: is they've actually done studies that show that. Um, And

531
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: I wish I had done research around this. But but

532
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: you're imperfectly perfect. In the workplace, women are sort of

533
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: shouldered with the extra responsibility of these kinds of things.

534
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: So what's like carrying on top of your job planning

535
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: the party, you know, getting the card for Linda on

536
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,239
Speaker 1: accounting and making sure everyone signs the bringing cupcakes, all

537
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: of those little you know, um, I forget that the

538
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: expression for it, but all those other little kind of

539
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: non work related maintenance things. They usually it's fault to women.

540
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: So it's like being expected to do another job for

541
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: free on top of your job, which is absurd, and

542
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: it's not bad to want to do that. It's bad

543
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: to assign that work unconsciously based on gender exactly. And

544
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: so I think another strategy here is to flip this gript?

545
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: So what do you mean by that? I love, because

546
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: it's really about you know, call when you call something

547
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: like this out, you might want to say, listen, boss

548
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: or colleague or whomever. Would you say that to Jack

549
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: and Joe and Jason and all the guys in the

550
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: office just the same, Like, flip the script and ask them,

551
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: you know, is this exactly? How is this what you

552
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: would say if I were a guy? And so giving

553
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: yourself that litmus test too too, when you're sort of

554
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,959
Speaker 1: unpacking you know, was that am I being a benevolent sexist? Here?

555
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: I'm trying to be nice? But is am I mothering

556
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: women in my office? And I am I treating women differently?

557
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: Or my treating them as respected peers and equals? Ask

558
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: yourself would I say the same thing to a room

559
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: full of men? And I think those are tough questions

560
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: to ask, because are it's it's not simple, it's not

561
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: really simple, But I think, um, those are ways to

562
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: be more mindful about what can be unconscious and seemingly benevolent,

563
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: and yeah, just and just being willing to recognize that

564
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: all of ourselves looking inward and sort of being willing

565
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: to be self reflective, because again, gender stuff is this

566
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: big trip of you know, with mind fields and trip

567
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: wires everywhere, and of course we're all gonna, like, you know,

568
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: have this kind of stuff play out in our own

569
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: down minds, and so just being willing to recognize it

570
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: and being willing to get comfortable with being uncomfortable a

571
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: little bit can produce some really great outcomes. The last

572
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,959
Speaker 1: strategy that I really like here is um, you know,

573
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: letting someone know that it's not okay when they're protecting

574
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: you from bad news or information or whatever it might be.

575
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: Sometimes in the office, especially when a project is not

576
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: going well or clients not happy, there's this this trend

577
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: that is all imbued within with the benevolent sexism, which is, oh,

578
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: I didn't want to tell you that you're you know,

579
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: your client project is really going off the rails here,

580
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: because I don't want you to worry your little head

581
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: off about that. I don't I don't want you to like,

582
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: you know, don't sweat it. I I I'm hoarding this

583
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: information or this bad news to protect you, sweet lady,

584
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: and you have to say, listen, that's not okay because

585
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: flip the script and you know, use that technique, call

586
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: it out, use that techn and then say that I

587
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: in order to do my job as the respected professional

588
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: that I want to be here, you need to be

589
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: willing to share even bad news with me, right, and

590
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 1: a kind of mean like like the idea that like

591
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: you don't need someone else to fight your battles, Like

592
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: you don't need like you're capable human and that like

593
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: someone doesn't have to protect you from you know, information

594
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: that you need or whatever it is that you need,

595
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: right the same way that you don't need if you're

596
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: an able bodied adult, you don't need someone open a

597
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: door for you, like you know, you don't need someone

598
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: to protect you from like something that's going to be

599
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: bad or negative. And those unconscious assumptions that you need

600
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: protecting or caring for can really dismiss women totally full

601
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: you know, people that we are. Um. I find that

602
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: a lot of the companies I work with have men

603
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: who are afraid to give criticism to their subordinate women.

604
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: So they're male managers, they've got women on the staff,

605
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: and they have to tell, you know, the woman why

606
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: her presentation went off the rails or why her attires

607
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: inappropriate for the office setting. And they're like, nope, I

608
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: can't do this. I'm so not doing this. So then

609
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: and then women don't get they don't get the professional

610
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: development they need, they don't get the feedback they need.

611
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: And then it's like and then they're afraid. They're afraid

612
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: of stumbling into the trip wires. That is you know,

613
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: this is this is exactly what we're talking about. Imagine

614
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: if you were that that male boss who was freaked

615
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: out about, you know, having this candid conversation with a

616
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: cry in my office, right, and then that that female's

617
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: employee goes on thinking that what she's doing is fine,

618
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: that this has not been like giving this feedback that

619
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: could actually be helpful to her, and you're actually, in

620
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: the long term doing her a great dissertace, right, Like

621
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: if you'd pulled her aside and said, hey, here is

622
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: some constructive criticism on your thing. I know you can

623
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: handle it. I want to be straight up with you, right,

624
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: you're giving you're doing her a favorite by being honest

625
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: and treating her the way that you would any other employee.

626
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: But by not, by not giving her that respect that

627
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: you would any other employee, you're actually making her you know,

628
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: you're doing chivalry can be a real a service like

629
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: it's an attempt at chivalry and being a gentleman for

630
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: a sweet little lady. And it's unhelpful. So go forth,

631
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: women of Sminty and call it out. Flip the script. No,

632
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: it's okay to say no to women's work. Know that

633
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: you can be assertive about, you know, saying that I

634
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 1: need to hear the bad news or the or the

635
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: feedback that you have for me. And you know, let's

636
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: make sure that we bring men along for the ride

637
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:34,240
Speaker 1: in educating one another about this seemingly nice form of sexism,

638
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: you know, even when it means calling out our gal

639
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: pals and our guy friends who are exhibiting these underlying

640
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: beliefs about women or men based on general alone. Let's

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00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 1: get better together, people, Let's get better together. I want

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00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 1: to bump a stick. Awesome, Well, thank you so much

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00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: for tuning in for another episode, and we want to

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00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: hear from you. I want to know if benevolent sexist

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00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: it is something that you've seen in your office, in

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00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: your workplace, in your kitchen table conversations, whatever it might

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00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: look like. And is this something that you've struggled with

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00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: like Bridget and I, have you found yourself accidentally falling back?

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00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: I'm thinking this is woman's work or this is man's work.

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00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: I can't do this and you know, trying to be

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00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: nice but instead finding yourself holding limiting beliefs based on

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00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 1: gender alone. Is this a real issue? Do you want

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00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: to hear from you? We want to hear how envelope

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00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: sexism has played out in your life. Um, do you

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00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: think it's a real thing? How's it going? Unpacking it?

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00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: Let us know? Shoot us an email at mom Stuff

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00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com. You can tweet us

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00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: at Mom's Stuff podcast on Twitter. And if you end

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00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: up doing some subversive note taking your meeting, not so

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00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: I have to get fired, but also send us a

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00:35:50,960 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: picture where stuff mom ever told you on Instagram to

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Speaker 1: say for