WEBVTT - Part Two: Oscar Wilde: A Story That Was Way More Important Than I Realized

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<v Speaker 1>Cool Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff, which

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<v Speaker 2>is a podcast that comes out twice a week where

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<v Speaker 2>I talk about people that I think are cool who

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<v Speaker 2>did cool stuff? And this week is an archetypical episode

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<v Speaker 2>where I really like the person I'm talking about and

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<v Speaker 2>the person I'm talking to, who is Chelsea Weber Smith,

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<v Speaker 2>host of American Hysteria, which is another podcast.

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<v Speaker 3>Hey, so happy to be back. I am loving this

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<v Speaker 3>series so far. It is right up, my allie, So

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<v Speaker 3>thank you so much for having me.

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<v Speaker 2>Hell yeah, happy to have you. That sounded fake. That's

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<v Speaker 2>not true, It's not fake. Yeah. I hate my job. No,

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<v Speaker 2>I love my job, Tim Hard I know, I know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm really bad at So Sophie Hi is the producer.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi Sophie. Hi, Hi Sophie.

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<v Speaker 3>You gave me the you gave me your phone voice.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi Sophie. Hi Sophie.

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<v Speaker 3>Hardly nailing this.

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<v Speaker 2>And I guess our producer or whatever or audio engineer

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<v Speaker 2>is Daniel Danel. High Danel. You have to say hih

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<v Speaker 2>Daniel too. We can't move forward to Dane Yeah, okay cool.

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<v Speaker 2>Our theme musical is written forced by a woman, and

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<v Speaker 2>this is part two and a two parter. So the

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<v Speaker 2>second half about Oscar fucking Wild, who probably wouldn't have

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<v Speaker 2>hated having fucking although I guess he had enough middle

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<v Speaker 2>names he probably didn't need anymore.

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<v Speaker 3>Remind us, wait, remind us of the whole name again.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh but it's all the way back up at the

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<v Speaker 2>top of my script, nor I don't do it. Several

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<v Speaker 2>of them start with f Yeah, it's like three, there's

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<v Speaker 2>like finnial clarity, larity. Well, then fuck works Wills. I

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<v Speaker 2>think Willis or Wills is one of them. Yeah, all right, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I totally know this man inside and out. I wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>hate to. So we are talking about Oscar Wild, and

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<v Speaker 2>when we've last left off, he has reached the pinnacle

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<v Speaker 2>of his well. He's just about to put out like

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<v Speaker 2>his most important works and he is just like fucking

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<v Speaker 2>killing it. And he loves his kids, he loves his life.

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<v Speaker 2>And then it's the early eighteen nineties. Oscar Wild is

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<v Speaker 2>at the peak of his fame, in his power. He's

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<v Speaker 2>writing plays and essays that will outlive us all. And

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<v Speaker 2>then he falls for a guy and has a train

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<v Speaker 2>wreck of a relationship and it just fucks everything up.

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<v Speaker 3>Who among us you know?

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<v Speaker 2>In eighteen ninety one, he meets the man whose father

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<v Speaker 2>is going to ruin his life. He meets Lord Alfred Douglas.

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<v Speaker 2>His friends all call him Bozie, which seems to be

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<v Speaker 2>a childhood nickname from his mother called him. It relates

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<v Speaker 2>to the word boy. Somehow, I don't understand how English

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<v Speaker 2>people work. Bozie was a younger man, he was twenty

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<v Speaker 2>one or something. Oscar's in his mid thirties at this point.

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<v Speaker 2>They hit it off and they have a love affair

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<v Speaker 2>full of dramatic breakups and wild goings ons. Alfred demands

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<v Speaker 2>Oscar spend basically all of his money on him, and

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<v Speaker 2>Oscar does just whatever fucking Bozy wants Bozy gets, and

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<v Speaker 2>they just wrecking ball each other's lives, just fuck each

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<v Speaker 2>other up. It's really bad.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you think that this is a fuck each other

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<v Speaker 3>up because they are actually really passionately in love or

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<v Speaker 3>is it hard to say? So?

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<v Speaker 2>You know those like relationships where you kind of just

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<v Speaker 2>fight all the time but the sex is fucking wild,

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<v Speaker 2>and then whenever you're away, you're like, oh, actually that

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<v Speaker 2>person wasn't so bad after all, And if he calls

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<v Speaker 2>your like come running back.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I know that yeahact situation. Okay, all right, it's

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<v Speaker 4>one of those, got it. The two of them have

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<v Speaker 4>a particular habit. One of their favorite ways to spend

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<v Speaker 4>the time is that they go to a very fancy

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<v Speaker 4>hotel they hire sex workers together and then tip the

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<v Speaker 4>sex workers lavishly, like they'll send them home with silver

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<v Speaker 4>cigarette cases and shit like.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh okay, I know, like yeah, I like that.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And then they get into big blow up fights and

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<v Speaker 2>then they get back together, and it is really fucking

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<v Speaker 2>bad for Oscar. It's probably bad for Bosie too, but

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<v Speaker 2>he's later going to become a massive anti semi although

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<v Speaker 2>anti Nazi. Okay, Well, Lord Alfred is the man who

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<v Speaker 2>coined the phrase the Love that dare not speak its name,

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<v Speaker 2>and he's kind of a want to be intellectual, but

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<v Speaker 2>he's fucking twenty one. Oscar Wilde was a want to

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<v Speaker 2>be intellectual when he was twenty one. I was a

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<v Speaker 2>want to be well, I don't know what I was

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<v Speaker 2>when I was twenty one.

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<v Speaker 3>I was definitely I want to be intellectual when I

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<v Speaker 3>was twenty one, so.

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<v Speaker 2>I know I was, like I think when I was seventeen,

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't want to be intellectual, and when I was

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<v Speaker 2>like twenty one. I was like, I'm going to die

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<v Speaker 2>in the revolution. Before I turned twenty four.

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<v Speaker 3>I wasn't want to be anarchist by then too.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, and Oscar Wilde is like hiring him to

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<v Speaker 2>do stuff he sucks at, like translate his plays and

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<v Speaker 2>things like that, and then like Oscar will do just

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<v Speaker 2>like go back in and like clean up all the

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<v Speaker 2>translations and shit.

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<v Speaker 5>Like.

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<v Speaker 2>At some point, I think what happened is Oscar wild

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<v Speaker 2>like writes a play in French and then like the translation.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's the one that Alfred does, and so

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<v Speaker 2>they date and they're wildly in love and fucking each

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<v Speaker 2>other up and then having amazing, beautiful decad at times. Also,

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<v Speaker 2>and Alfred's dad is the Marquess of Queensbury. I refuse

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<v Speaker 2>to learn what a marquess is. Fucking royalty. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>even know some royalty shit something embarrassing. Yeah, you ever

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<v Speaker 2>heard of the Queensbury rules of boxing? No, it is

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<v Speaker 2>the rules that modern boxing is like developed from. Okay

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<v Speaker 2>because of the Marquess of Queensbury. This particular man, all right,

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<v Speaker 2>he did not write them down, but he popularized them

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<v Speaker 2>and he was he was big into boxing and he

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<v Speaker 2>sets about trying to ruin Oscar Wilde's life because he

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<v Speaker 2>sees Oscar wild as the corruptor. This groomer was ruined

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<v Speaker 2>his son because, as we talked about last time, homosexuality

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<v Speaker 2>and heterosexuality were brand fucking new terms at this time.

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<v Speaker 2>I really loved it. Actually was like a really mind

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<v Speaker 2>blowing moment when I realized that heaterosexuality is about one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and twenty years old.

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<v Speaker 3>Mm hmm.

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<v Speaker 5>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh, But that doesn't mean that before that everyone was like,

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<v Speaker 2>do whatever you want, it's all groovy, you know.

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<v Speaker 3>No, I just meant that there wasn't an identity category.

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<v Speaker 3>There were like actions that you took, so you like,

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<v Speaker 3>did gay stuff you weren't necessarily gay stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>Yourself, yeah, And if you were, it was like words

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<v Speaker 2>like pervert and things like that.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, yeah. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And as best as I can tell the way that

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<v Speaker 2>Oscar wild in this particular moral panic about homosexuality, gay

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<v Speaker 2>men are seen as like vampires. They are corruptors that

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<v Speaker 2>go around and ruin the young and turn them into

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<v Speaker 2>corruptors themselves, pretty much exactly what people say about like

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<v Speaker 2>trans women. Now. Yeah, so, mister Queensbury, I refuse to

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<v Speaker 2>call him marquess every single time, and I think he

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<v Speaker 2>would be annoyed if I called him mister, and I

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<v Speaker 2>don't like him, so I'm gonna call him mister. Stick

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<v Speaker 2>it to him. Yeah, take that man who's been dead

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<v Speaker 2>since before my great grandfather was born, before my grandfather

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<v Speaker 2>was born. So he sets about to ruin Oscar Wilde's

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<v Speaker 2>reputation in life to save his son from becoming a

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<v Speaker 2>vampire or whatever. But the first couple times they meet,

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<v Speaker 2>like they'll be like, like Bozi and Oscar will be

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<v Speaker 2>at a restaurant together, and like Dad will just happen

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<v Speaker 2>to be there because like all the rich people hang

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<v Speaker 2>out to rich people shit, you know, and he'll like

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<v Speaker 2>come over. And Oscar Wilde is so fucking charming that

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<v Speaker 2>he successfully charms his twenty one year old boyfriend's dad

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<v Speaker 2>multiple times. And so it's like Dad will like storm

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<v Speaker 2>over and like sit down, and Oscar I'll be like, man,

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<v Speaker 2>I love fishing. I hear you like fishing. Let's talk

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<v Speaker 2>about fishing.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh man, this is what I aspire to be for.

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<v Speaker 3>When I meet my partners, like homophobic family members, it's

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<v Speaker 3>like I will do it. I will charm you into

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<v Speaker 3>this and do excitting this.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, and it's like every single time, and then

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<v Speaker 2>he like leaves it in my head. He's like, oh wait,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm supposed to be mad.

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<v Speaker 3>That vampire.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, she was this charming, smile, handsome abs. So finally

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<v Speaker 2>mister boxing Man shows up at Oscar's house and is like,

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<v Speaker 2>next time I see you and my son together, i'ma

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<v Speaker 2>fuck you up. I think he says, I will thrash you,

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<v Speaker 2>which is nice eighteen nineties for ima fuck you up,

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<v Speaker 2>to which Oscar replies because he is fucking witty and quotable.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know what the Queensbury rules are, but the

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<v Speaker 2>Oscar Wild rule is to shoot on site.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh wow.

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<v Speaker 2>So he's like, hey, you want to come at me,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll fucking kill you.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think Bosey Lord Alfred is egging Wild on

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<v Speaker 2>because Lord Alfred hates his fucking dad. And then one day,

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<v Speaker 2>Lord Alfred he shows up at the rich people London

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<v Speaker 2>club that Wild hangs out at. It was like referred

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<v Speaker 2>to as like showed up at his club and I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, dear Google, did Oscar Wild own a club?

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<v Speaker 2>And then it's like no, it's just like a weird

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<v Speaker 2>rich British people thing where you have like your gentleman's club.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually this particular one accepted men and women, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>like your weird rich people club.

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<v Speaker 3>And for a second, I was thinking of Oscar Wild,

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<v Speaker 3>like Lindsay lohand in that one video when she owned

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<v Speaker 3>that club in Mikono's doing that really.

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<v Speaker 5>Really funny.

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<v Speaker 3>It's pretty good, thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>So I would I would love to go to Oscar

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<v Speaker 2>Wild's club or probably this club that I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>anything about.

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<v Speaker 3>Lindsay Lohan's club and Mikinos became abandoned because she only

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<v Speaker 3>lost interest or something, and I always just dreamed of

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<v Speaker 3>going to that.

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<v Speaker 5>Hell the TV show on her club in Mikinos not MTV,

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<v Speaker 5>and there was a phase where it was the best

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<v Speaker 5>worst show on television. Yeah, it don't songs for like

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<v Speaker 5>six weeks because that's when she lost interest.

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<v Speaker 3>But she had a fantastic fake accent.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, Well, I know a lot more about pop

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<v Speaker 2>stars in eighteen nineties London, and.

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<v Speaker 3>I do, so why we're bringing it in, We're making

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<v Speaker 3>it modern. I know.

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<v Speaker 2>I appreciate that. Sometimes I like become conscious of the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that I like know more about like even like

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<v Speaker 2>political shit, of the nineteen tens in Ireland than I

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<v Speaker 2>do about. Like now, that teens to me directly.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I do understand that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so Oscar wild as a club, but not as

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<v Speaker 2>cool as Oscar well owning a club, which I would

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely have gone to. And I think if he had lasted,

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<v Speaker 2>none of this had gone down. I could see this

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<v Speaker 2>man owning a club.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And he leaves a calling card, which is another rich

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<v Speaker 2>people thing, and it says for Oscar Wilde posing somdamite

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<v Speaker 2>because among his many boxing talents does not include a

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<v Speaker 2>talent for spelling or comprehensible handwriting. Okay, is spell it's

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<v Speaker 2>sodomite spelled wrong. And Oscar Wilde is like, I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 2>sue this man for libel wow. And his friends are like,

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<v Speaker 2>but you're a sodomite. You're like, and he will go

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<v Speaker 2>to jail unless he can prove you are a sodomite,

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<v Speaker 2>which he can do because you're a sodomite.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And his other friends are like, hey, Paris is lovely.

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<v Speaker 2>Would you like to go to Paris.

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<v Speaker 3>Let's just go to Paris and have a nice time.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And he's like nope, because if I let this

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<v Speaker 2>stand it will ruin my reputation. I am suing this

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<v Speaker 2>man for libel. My favorite history arguing about I'm less

0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:28.200
<v Speaker 2>interested in like did he fuck so? And so that's fine?

0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.440
<v Speaker 2>Why the fuck did he do? This? Is my favorite

0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:35.280
<v Speaker 2>history arguing about of this whole thing. Yeah, so Queensberry

0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:37.320
<v Speaker 2>now has to proven court that Oscar Wild is a

0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:42.560
<v Speaker 2>sodomite and it's a criminal triald, criminal liable. Queensberry is arrested,

0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.560
<v Speaker 2>but the trial never becomes about Queensberry. I think Oscar

0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:48.400
<v Speaker 2>wild sees it like, oh, I'm going to have the power.

0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:50.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to be the prosecutor. I'm going to stand up,

0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to fight. You know, it is a trial

0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:57.240
<v Speaker 2>about Oscar wild Several times Oscar wild has to be like, hey,

0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:01.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm the I'm the prosecutor, not the defend Yeah wow,

0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:05.200
<v Speaker 2>and people are like fuck you you homo. Yeah you know.

0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:11.920
<v Speaker 2>Like soon enough, Queensburg is found not guilty and Oscar

0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:16.840
<v Speaker 2>Wilde gets put on trial instead for gross indecency aka

0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:18.480
<v Speaker 2>touch and pens.

0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:24.280
<v Speaker 3>So he's the after the trial because of this publicity,

0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.280
<v Speaker 3>he gets charged with a separate crime.

0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:28.760
<v Speaker 2>Because of all the evidence that came out in the

0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:29.559
<v Speaker 2>course of the trial.

0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:33.120
<v Speaker 3>Oh gosh, Oscar, you didn't have to do that.

0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:36.559
<v Speaker 2>No, he did not have to do it. These three

0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.960
<v Speaker 2>trials is three trials of fucking Oscar Wild. They are

0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:45.040
<v Speaker 2>a big fucking deal. Yeah that It is a big

0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:48.280
<v Speaker 2>deal in history because Oscar Wild was not the first

0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:50.760
<v Speaker 2>nor the last celebrity to go on trial for gay sex.

0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:54.079
<v Speaker 2>But it is coming at a time of public moral

0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:57.000
<v Speaker 2>panic around, you know, the sodomites in our mist mist

0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:00.000
<v Speaker 2>or whatever, and Oscar Wild is like one of them

0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:04.160
<v Speaker 2>most famous people around. It also comes at a time

0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:07.960
<v Speaker 2>when there's two other big scary things going on in England,

0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:14.360
<v Speaker 2>Irish nationalists and anarchists. And your boy is a gay

0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:15.480
<v Speaker 2>Irish anarchist.

0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, okay, And what year are we in?

0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:20.440
<v Speaker 2>This is eighteen ninety five, he goes on twenty five.

0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:21.120
<v Speaker 3>Okay, great.

0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:24.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm going to take a detour really quick to

0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:27.320
<v Speaker 2>talk about Irish independence and British anarchists because as an

0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:29.920
<v Speaker 2>angle I haven't seen too many people cover and it's

0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:34.760
<v Speaker 2>about the trial, and I think it's really interesting. During

0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.960
<v Speaker 2>the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties, British anarchists were primarily

0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:42.560
<v Speaker 2>focused on anti colonialism. In particular, they were focused on

0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:47.560
<v Speaker 2>freeing the colony next door Ireland. Anarchists across the world

0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.320
<v Speaker 2>were starting to turn their attention to anti colonialism everywhere,

0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.120
<v Speaker 2>but it's particularly the case in Britain, which makes some sense.

0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:54.640
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:56.920
<v Speaker 2>They also weren't trying to tell the Irish rebels what

0:14:56.960 --> 0:14:58.680
<v Speaker 2>to do. They weren't like, hey, you all got to

0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.920
<v Speaker 2>be anarchists and do whoever anarchy. Instead, they actually looked

0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.480
<v Speaker 2>to the Irish rebels for inspiration and remained in dialogue

0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:07.920
<v Speaker 2>with movements around the world. It's actually they actually did

0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:09.720
<v Speaker 2>better at this than I expected them to to be.

0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:10.040
<v Speaker 5>Frick.

0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:17.440
<v Speaker 3>They're kind of supporting whatever the Irish nationalists needed versus.

0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:19.960
<v Speaker 2>Right, right, And I don't know whether they were like

0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:22.920
<v Speaker 2>sending arms or not sure, right, but I do know

0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:24.840
<v Speaker 2>that they were some of the only people in England

0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.520
<v Speaker 2>publishing things that were like we support the following like

0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:31.560
<v Speaker 2>Irish nationalists crime that had nothing to do with anarchism

0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:33.640
<v Speaker 2>as a cause. It was just anti colonial.

0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:38.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and ideological support yeah okay, yeah, and like literally

0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:40.000
<v Speaker 4>even just being able to get news about it that

0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:41.680
<v Speaker 4>they were like constantly getting repressed for.

0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.480
<v Speaker 2>This is not a big free speech time, you know, right,

0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:49.040
<v Speaker 2>And in Britain anarchists were also like, hey, fellow Brits,

0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:51.480
<v Speaker 2>you know that whatever repressive shit they do to the Irish,

0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:56.400
<v Speaker 2>they'll eventually do here, right, and considering the the English

0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:59.640
<v Speaker 2>later invent rubber bullets to use on the Irish, like,

0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:05.600
<v Speaker 2>oh shit, that's like eighty years later. But yeah, but

0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.920
<v Speaker 2>this is exactly what happens. The repressive apparatus that was

0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:13.720
<v Speaker 2>used against the Irish was then used domestically, and specifically,

0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:18.160
<v Speaker 2>the spying apparatus was used domestically. Okay, and so we're

0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:20.760
<v Speaker 2>gonna talk about the Phoenix part killings as a sort

0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:24.320
<v Speaker 2>of cool people detour just to talk. No one's been

0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:27.240
<v Speaker 2>stabbed so far as this episode. You know, yeah, some

0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:29.480
<v Speaker 2>people are going to get stabbed and shot now, and

0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:34.440
<v Speaker 2>some of them will deserve it. Irish Rebellion was about

0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.360
<v Speaker 2>Irish independence, but it was specifically against landlordism as well.

0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:40.240
<v Speaker 2>There have been a potato genocide in the eighteen forties

0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.160
<v Speaker 2>where England had starved Ireland during period of potato blight,

0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:46.840
<v Speaker 2>but shit had not gotten better by the eighteen eighties

0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.920
<v Speaker 2>and so like economically, and so you have this next

0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:53.080
<v Speaker 2>generation who are like, hey, how come we're all tenant

0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:55.440
<v Speaker 2>farmers instead of owning our land, and we're one bad

0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:58.040
<v Speaker 2>harvest away from death. And also we keep getting evicted,

0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:00.280
<v Speaker 2>so we're actually not even one bad harvest away from death.

0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:00.880
<v Speaker 2>Were just dead.

0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:02.160
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:04.840
<v Speaker 2>This leads to the Land War of eighteen seventy nine

0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:06.880
<v Speaker 2>to eighteen eighty two, which is a whole fucking war

0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.800
<v Speaker 2>against landlords, and I just want to sit on that

0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:14.040
<v Speaker 2>pleasant thought for a moment. Although in this particular war

0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:16.440
<v Speaker 2>against the landlords, the landlords did come out on top.

0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:22.960
<v Speaker 2>Britain by eighteen eighty one was like, all right, fuck y'all,

0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:25.919
<v Speaker 2>Irish motherfuckers, no more trial by jury and Ireland we

0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:30.480
<v Speaker 2>are fucking in charge, not you fuck off. They arrested

0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:34.000
<v Speaker 2>nine hundred anti landlord activists and then the Irish were like,

0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:36.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's like a couple of guys responsible for that.

0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:41.200
<v Speaker 2>There's like, well, to quote the great folk singer Utah Phillips,

0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:43.520
<v Speaker 2>the earth is not dying, it is being killed, and

0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:47.119
<v Speaker 2>those who are killing it have names and addresses. The

0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:51.080
<v Speaker 2>Irish were like, well, it's I can point to those people.

0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:55.840
<v Speaker 2>That's the guy. One group that came out of this

0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:59.119
<v Speaker 2>land War was called the Irish National Invincibles or just

0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:03.040
<v Speaker 2>the Invincibles, which is a fucking cool name. Yeah, And

0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:08.240
<v Speaker 2>they are a splinter from the Irish Republican Brotherhood and

0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:12.560
<v Speaker 2>they were like, what if we just stab the aforementioned

0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:16.600
<v Speaker 2>responsible men to death in a public park. Surely that's

0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.600
<v Speaker 2>a thing within our power. And they try a couple

0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.680
<v Speaker 2>of times, but they keep failing. But like the little

0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:25.399
<v Speaker 2>engine that could, they just kept right at it until

0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:29.520
<v Speaker 2>one day they succeeded. Or to quote the later IRA

0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.679
<v Speaker 2>talking about how they the later IRA kept trying to

0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:37.240
<v Speaker 2>blow up Margaret Thatcher and they said, you have to

0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:44.120
<v Speaker 2>get lucky every time. We only have to get lucky once. Wow. Wow. Yeah,

0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:46.160
<v Speaker 2>And I think it was I think they're specifically mad

0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:48.200
<v Speaker 2>that Margaret Thatcher was giving Margaret's a bad name.

0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:52.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, primary problem, her greatest sin.

0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:53.879
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.760
<v Speaker 2>So one day in Phoenix Park, seven of these Invincibles

0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:01.919
<v Speaker 2>surround the Permanent Undersecretary Thomas Henry Burke and the new

0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:06.360
<v Speaker 2>Chief Secretary, Lord Frederick Cavendish, the latter of whom had

0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:08.240
<v Speaker 2>literally just arrived in Dublin to be in charge of

0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:10.679
<v Speaker 2>repressing the colony. They actually didn't even recognize him. I

0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:14.359
<v Speaker 2>think they just were killing the permanent under Secretary and

0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:18.560
<v Speaker 2>then like you know, found this other guy that needed

0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:22.040
<v Speaker 2>to get stab into and they killed them in Phoenix Park.

0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:25.719
<v Speaker 2>And unlike the park name, those two did not rise

0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:31.280
<v Speaker 2>from the ashes. Ah, thank you, thank you. The weapons

0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.720
<v Speaker 2>have been delivered by a seven month pregnant Irish nationalist

0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:37.320
<v Speaker 2>named Mary Anne Byrne, who ran weapons for the Resistance

0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:41.600
<v Speaker 2>under her skirts, and the getaway driver. The getaway driver

0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.000
<v Speaker 2>was named and I am not making this up Skin

0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:44.560
<v Speaker 2>the Goat.

0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:46.160
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:48.760
<v Speaker 2>Wow, all one word hyphenated.

0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:51.880
<v Speaker 3>I'd go to a party at their house. I don't

0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:53.840
<v Speaker 3>think they are a couple, but I'm pretending male.

0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:59.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally, there's Mary and skin the Goat. He earned

0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:02.159
<v Speaker 2>that name because one time he killed and skinned a

0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:04.359
<v Speaker 2>goat and then wore the goat skin on his lap

0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:05.399
<v Speaker 2>while driving a cab.

0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:10.960
<v Speaker 3>Well, there you go. Yeah, very literal nicknames back then.

0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:15.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, totally. So anyway, so the Invincibles killed some

0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:18.080
<v Speaker 2>men responsible for the subjugation of Ireland. One of the

0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.479
<v Speaker 2>assassins was this guy named James Carey, probably no relation

0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:25.640
<v Speaker 2>to the actor of the same name, and he got

0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:29.280
<v Speaker 2>caught and he turned snitch, and his snitching saw five

0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:32.720
<v Speaker 2>of his associates hanged and This led to a whole

0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:37.760
<v Speaker 2>chain of events. The Crown was like, all right, Jim Carrey,

0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:39.520
<v Speaker 2>you got to eventually make the mask, so we got

0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:41.360
<v Speaker 2>to get you away from here under a fake name.

0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:45.119
<v Speaker 2>Get you to South Africa. You'll be safe there. But

0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.200
<v Speaker 2>there's other people on the boat, and one of the

0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:50.640
<v Speaker 2>other people on the boat is just he's not there

0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:52.639
<v Speaker 2>to do anything. I mean, was there to go to

0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:54.800
<v Speaker 2>South Africa. But he is a forty eight year old

0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:59.159
<v Speaker 2>Irish bricklayer named Patrick O'Donnell. And Patrick O'Donnell had been

0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:02.600
<v Speaker 2>hanging out in cold mining, Pennsylvania with his Molly McGuire cousins.

0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:06.560
<v Speaker 2>See are two parter on the Molly McGuire's the people

0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:09.680
<v Speaker 2>who like to kill landlords the middle the night. They

0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:12.480
<v Speaker 2>believed in very direct solutions to certain types of problems.

0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.320
<v Speaker 2>So Patrick discovered James's true identity while they're on the

0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:21.679
<v Speaker 2>ship together. Three bullets later, James Carey is dead. Patrick

0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:25.399
<v Speaker 2>O'Donnell's stands trial. He is sentenced to death. The judge

0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:28.520
<v Speaker 2>refused to let him speak after the sentencing, so instead

0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:32.800
<v Speaker 2>he shouted, He shouted three cheers for Old Ireland, Goodbye

0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:37.800
<v Speaker 2>United States, to hell with the British and the British Crown. Nice.

0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:39.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, at least he got one in there.

0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:44.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know, I know. He was executed and was

0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:47.480
<v Speaker 2>and is considered a martyr to Irish freedom. You know,

0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:50.119
<v Speaker 2>a man who made a decision while he was on

0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:50.520
<v Speaker 2>a boat.

0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:53.159
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, bricklayer.

0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:54.560
<v Speaker 5>Job.

0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah. What's this got to do with Oscar Wilde.

0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:02.160
<v Speaker 2>It has two things to do with Oscar Wilde. When

0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:04.800
<v Speaker 2>Oscar was on his tour of the US, he spoke

0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:08.200
<v Speaker 2>unabashedly about how those killings, the Phoenix Park killings were

0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:14.240
<v Speaker 2>quote the fruit of seven centuries of injustice, and his

0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:16.720
<v Speaker 2>irishness is often erased, but he was his mother's son.

0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:21.520
<v Speaker 2>He also specifically talked about how the colonization of Ireland

0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:26.240
<v Speaker 2>was cutting into the Irish ability to be artists. The

0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:30.320
<v Speaker 2>other connection is that the English anarchist press was supporting

0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:34.879
<v Speaker 2>the Invincibles and Irish nationalism generally, and soon enough, you know,

0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:38.840
<v Speaker 2>a decade or so later, they're supporting Oscar wild Because

0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:41.320
<v Speaker 2>not a lot of people supported Oscar wild while he

0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:45.760
<v Speaker 2>was on trial, but the anarchist press did. And as

0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:48.320
<v Speaker 2>another weird side note about the anarchist press in England

0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:52.199
<v Speaker 2>at the time, there's this paper called The Torch, and

0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:55.280
<v Speaker 2>it was run by two teenaged anarchist sisters named Helen

0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:59.800
<v Speaker 2>and Olivia Rosetti. They started it when they were thirteen

0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:04.719
<v Speaker 2>and sixteen. And it's like one of the papers of

0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:07.400
<v Speaker 2>like wide circulation that's like covering shit from all over

0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:09.240
<v Speaker 2>the world. It's like they're not writing all the pieces.

0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:11.199
<v Speaker 2>They're like getting all of these people who write all

0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:12.040
<v Speaker 2>these pieces and stuff.

0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:14.200
<v Speaker 3>You know, Wow, that's so cool.

0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:18.560
<v Speaker 2>And then here's where I guess it's really annoying. Another

0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:20.640
<v Speaker 2>example of the things that Margaret doesn't like to talk

0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:24.000
<v Speaker 2>about but has to all the time. Later, these two

0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:28.920
<v Speaker 2>girls become fascists because one of the things I hate

0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:31.800
<v Speaker 2>talking about is that the fascist movement came out of

0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:34.680
<v Speaker 2>the revolutionary politics of the left combined with the conservatism

0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:41.160
<v Speaker 2>and authoritarianism of the right. It was leftist methodology applied

0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:46.960
<v Speaker 2>to right wing values. Yeah, there are leftist roots to

0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:49.960
<v Speaker 2>a lot of fascism, and a lot of leftists became

0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:50.959
<v Speaker 2>early fascists.

0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:54.320
<v Speaker 3>Not now to talk about it, though, Yeah you got

0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:55.080
<v Speaker 3>to talk about it.

0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah important. It's not fun too, and oh.

0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:00.199
<v Speaker 3>It's not, but you gotta you know, it's you have

0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:01.800
<v Speaker 3>to so you don't repeat the past.

0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:06.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally, totally, And it's just like annoying because then

0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:10.800
<v Speaker 2>people will be like, oh, national socialism, that means it's leftist,

0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:12.119
<v Speaker 2>and you're like, no, it's a right wing movement, and

0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:15.400
<v Speaker 2>you're like but also.

0:24:16.520 --> 0:24:18.720
<v Speaker 3>You know, yeah, I do know.

0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:24.600
<v Speaker 2>So for now, they are running an anarchist press, and

0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:28.240
<v Speaker 2>they and other anarchist presses are supporting Irish independence, and

0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:31.560
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of their writers are supporting Oscar Wilde. Let's

0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:36.360
<v Speaker 2>go back to the trial. Well, actually, before we talk

0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:40.240
<v Speaker 2>about the trial, have you ever considered that there's a

0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:44.560
<v Speaker 2>gaping hole in your life, a hole that you feel

0:24:44.600 --> 0:24:49.280
<v Speaker 2>like could be filled but not in a quote Greek way,

0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:54.200
<v Speaker 2>but through a consumer way. Do you ever think about that?

0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:57.440
<v Speaker 2>I know I do, so it keeps me up at night.

0:24:58.400 --> 0:25:02.440
<v Speaker 2>Here's these ads that will fill you're whole. Nope, I

0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:17.199
<v Speaker 2>don't like. Go Okay, here they go and we're back. So,

0:25:17.320 --> 0:25:19.399
<v Speaker 2>like I was saying, the trial is three trials. First

0:25:19.400 --> 0:25:22.480
<v Speaker 2>there is Wild trying to prosecute boxing rules man, and

0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:26.680
<v Speaker 2>then the Crown trying to prosecute Wild. And that first

0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:29.600
<v Speaker 2>attempt to prosecute Wild doesn't work. There's a hung Jurney

0:25:29.640 --> 0:25:32.920
<v Speaker 2>and so the crown is like, well, while we got

0:25:32.960 --> 0:25:35.200
<v Speaker 2>you here, why don't we just put you on trial

0:25:35.240 --> 0:25:38.439
<v Speaker 2>for the same thing again? And he was like, I mean,

0:25:38.480 --> 0:25:41.199
<v Speaker 2>I'd probably rather you didn't. And they're like, well, are

0:25:41.240 --> 0:25:43.119
<v Speaker 2>you gonna run in France? And he's like no, and

0:25:43.119 --> 0:25:45.040
<v Speaker 2>they're like why not and he's like, I don't know.

0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:47.960
<v Speaker 2>And historians are going to argue about it later. It's

0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:51.600
<v Speaker 2>eighteen ninety five. Private investigators during the very first trial,

0:25:51.600 --> 0:25:53.680
<v Speaker 2>they dig up a fuck ton of the sex workers

0:25:53.800 --> 0:25:56.760
<v Speaker 2>that he had slept with, and then the crown blackmails

0:25:56.800 --> 0:25:59.520
<v Speaker 2>them into testifying against Oscar Wild. I think pretty much

0:25:59.560 --> 0:26:04.120
<v Speaker 2>they're like, hey, we're going to prosecute you unless you test. Yeah,

0:26:04.200 --> 0:26:06.520
<v Speaker 2>there's also some implication that they might have been tortured,

0:26:07.960 --> 0:26:11.520
<v Speaker 2>and a bunch of them testify, and I think, like,

0:26:12.280 --> 0:26:14.639
<v Speaker 2>I think Oscar World's like a little bit surprised Pikachu

0:26:14.680 --> 0:26:17.480
<v Speaker 2>face about this. Yeah, Like, I think he just thinks

0:26:17.480 --> 0:26:21.119
<v Speaker 2>he's going to get away with it. You know, his

0:26:21.240 --> 0:26:24.159
<v Speaker 2>own books and plays are used as evidence against him

0:26:24.200 --> 0:26:27.480
<v Speaker 2>in these trials. Everyone is trying to tease out every

0:26:27.520 --> 0:26:31.040
<v Speaker 2>gay line from every one of his plays, and Wild's

0:26:31.040 --> 0:26:35.800
<v Speaker 2>defense it changes tone here and there by and large

0:26:35.840 --> 0:26:39.200
<v Speaker 2>he's not like being gay's fine, fuck you. By and large,

0:26:39.200 --> 0:26:42.040
<v Speaker 2>he's like, I didn't do it. Can't say I did

0:26:42.040 --> 0:26:44.560
<v Speaker 2>it because I didn't do it, which is I don't

0:26:44.560 --> 0:26:47.280
<v Speaker 2>blame whatever. I'm a big tell the truth person. When

0:26:47.280 --> 0:26:49.960
<v Speaker 2>someone's not threatening to lock you into a cage, you know.

0:26:50.800 --> 0:26:53.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you don't need to tell the truth to the courts,

0:26:53.800 --> 0:26:56.040
<v Speaker 3>yea necessarily like show honor.

0:26:56.440 --> 0:26:59.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, don't lie to someone that you wouldn't punch. That's

0:26:59.840 --> 0:27:01.800
<v Speaker 2>the it's my general go to.

0:27:02.520 --> 0:27:03.400
<v Speaker 3>It's good rule with them.

0:27:03.480 --> 0:27:07.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So, and partially he gets caught up in a

0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:10.440
<v Speaker 2>lot of his own lying about this because he can't

0:27:10.480 --> 0:27:14.240
<v Speaker 2>help being super witty. They're like, hey, did you kiss

0:27:14.280 --> 0:27:17.080
<v Speaker 2>this guy? And Oscar Wild's like, well I would, but

0:27:17.119 --> 0:27:20.960
<v Speaker 2>he's ugly, like I would never kiss a man like that,

0:27:21.320 --> 0:27:24.119
<v Speaker 2>and they're like, so you'd kiss a man He's like,

0:27:24.160 --> 0:27:29.800
<v Speaker 2>ah shit, got me again, man. And the whole time

0:27:29.840 --> 0:27:32.240
<v Speaker 2>between each of the trials, before the first one, before

0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:35.040
<v Speaker 2>the second one, and before the third one, his friends

0:27:35.040 --> 0:27:37.760
<v Speaker 2>are like, go the fuck to France. Why the fuck

0:27:37.800 --> 0:27:40.480
<v Speaker 2>aren't you in France. In fact, we all left for

0:27:40.520 --> 0:27:44.040
<v Speaker 2>France because we're all gay. And there's now this moral

0:27:44.080 --> 0:27:46.639
<v Speaker 2>panic around you, and we don't want to testify you

0:27:46.920 --> 0:27:48.679
<v Speaker 2>against you, and we don't want to go to prison,

0:27:49.000 --> 0:27:52.719
<v Speaker 2>So come the fuck to France. Yeah, his mother is

0:27:52.800 --> 0:27:53.600
<v Speaker 2>like stay and fight.

0:27:54.840 --> 0:27:55.320
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

0:27:55.600 --> 0:27:57.320
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know whether it's a mama's boy thing.

0:27:57.320 --> 0:27:59.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what it is, but you know, there's

0:27:59.800 --> 0:28:04.800
<v Speaker 2>all so like I get the feeling that he he

0:28:04.880 --> 0:28:07.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of just felt like his whole life was falling apart.

0:28:07.720 --> 0:28:08.960
<v Speaker 2>Like I feel like it was like almost kind of

0:28:08.960 --> 0:28:12.760
<v Speaker 2>a nihilistic move and he'd just been in this like

0:28:12.840 --> 0:28:15.320
<v Speaker 2>long shitty relationship and his life was kind of losing

0:28:15.400 --> 0:28:16.960
<v Speaker 2>the plot and he was kind of in spiraling out

0:28:16.960 --> 0:28:17.480
<v Speaker 2>of control.

0:28:18.000 --> 0:28:21.640
<v Speaker 3>Do we know if his mom was accepting of him

0:28:21.680 --> 0:28:22.120
<v Speaker 3>being gay.

0:28:23.320 --> 0:28:23.919
<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

0:28:24.920 --> 0:28:27.879
<v Speaker 3>His mom seems so, I guess, unless she was saying, like,

0:28:28.040 --> 0:28:31.400
<v Speaker 3>defend yourself against these accusations, because there's like.

0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:34.720
<v Speaker 2>Two different things that could be I know, Yeah, I

0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:39.400
<v Speaker 2>don't know. My guess is supporting mom based on everything

0:28:39.440 --> 0:28:41.840
<v Speaker 2>I read about the relationship, but I don't know.

0:28:41.920 --> 0:28:43.280
<v Speaker 3>And her politics too.

0:28:43.360 --> 0:28:47.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but there's a lot of you know, it's like

0:28:47.800 --> 0:28:50.920
<v Speaker 2>one of these things where it's like, well we'll talk

0:28:50.920 --> 0:28:56.000
<v Speaker 2>about it. Sure. So he defends himself, and he actually

0:28:56.080 --> 0:29:01.760
<v Speaker 2>ends up defending obliquely homosexuality and specifically generation gap relationships

0:29:01.760 --> 0:29:05.000
<v Speaker 2>that are homosexual. They ask him what the love that

0:29:05.080 --> 0:29:07.800
<v Speaker 2>dare not speak its name is, and he basically is like, hey,

0:29:07.880 --> 0:29:10.600
<v Speaker 2>all throughout history, older men have loved younger men. It's

0:29:10.600 --> 0:29:14.280
<v Speaker 2>a Greek tradition, and everything's fine. But it's like the

0:29:14.280 --> 0:29:16.720
<v Speaker 2>way he phrases it, you could kind of talk about

0:29:16.720 --> 0:29:19.240
<v Speaker 2>same sexual relationships if you didn't talk about fucking. For

0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:22.000
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the Victorian era and a lot of

0:29:22.040 --> 0:29:25.240
<v Speaker 2>the historically close friends were literally just historically close friends,

0:29:25.280 --> 0:29:28.080
<v Speaker 2>and like you could have men could talk about loving

0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:32.880
<v Speaker 2>each other because since you hadn't created homosexuality as a

0:29:33.000 --> 0:29:36.040
<v Speaker 2>vice and a you know whatever, like there wasn't like

0:29:36.080 --> 0:29:37.600
<v Speaker 2>a fear of like you know, you look at all

0:29:37.600 --> 0:29:40.600
<v Speaker 2>the old photos and like men are like hugging and like.

0:29:40.680 --> 0:29:43.960
<v Speaker 3>Holding hands and like each other's laps and stuff.

0:29:44.040 --> 0:29:46.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you're like, oh, it means they were all gay,

0:29:46.760 --> 0:29:50.600
<v Speaker 2>and that's like sometimes true, but it's also just like

0:29:50.640 --> 0:29:52.960
<v Speaker 2>they weren't afraid of being called gay all the time,

0:29:53.040 --> 0:29:56.440
<v Speaker 2>so they just exactly enjoyed affection with each other because

0:29:56.440 --> 0:29:59.960
<v Speaker 2>that's normal and human. Yeah, And so it's possible that

0:30:00.040 --> 0:30:02.000
<v Speaker 2>when he was defending the Love that not dare not

0:30:02.040 --> 0:30:04.920
<v Speaker 2>speak its name, he was like still not being like,

0:30:06.200 --> 0:30:09.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, and I touched his buttole my finger or whatever.

0:30:10.080 --> 0:30:11.960
<v Speaker 2>The first trial ended with the hung jury and he

0:30:12.040 --> 0:30:15.520
<v Speaker 2>was retried. An Anglican priest who was a Christian socialist

0:30:15.560 --> 0:30:17.400
<v Speaker 2>put up a fuck ton of money to get wild

0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:20.640
<v Speaker 2>out on bail between the trials, and he still wouldn't flee.

0:30:20.720 --> 0:30:22.480
<v Speaker 2>And it's possible this time he just didn't want to

0:30:22.520 --> 0:30:23.320
<v Speaker 2>fuck over that priest.

0:30:24.000 --> 0:30:24.320
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:30:24.480 --> 0:30:28.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he went back to court. The judge fucking hated him,

0:30:28.960 --> 0:30:31.640
<v Speaker 2>said it was quote the worst case he'd ever tried,

0:30:33.280 --> 0:30:38.280
<v Speaker 2>because he like, was you know, seducing and ruining these

0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:42.840
<v Speaker 2>like young men or whatever, you know. Yeah, yeah, and

0:30:42.880 --> 0:30:45.400
<v Speaker 2>he was convicted of gross indecency. He was sentenced to

0:30:45.440 --> 0:30:48.640
<v Speaker 2>two years of hard labor. At the end, Oscar Wilde

0:30:48.640 --> 0:30:51.200
<v Speaker 2>said simply, and I may I say nothing, my lord,

0:30:52.080 --> 0:30:54.480
<v Speaker 2>and the judge didn't let him speak, and the crowd

0:30:54.560 --> 0:30:55.040
<v Speaker 2>jeered him.

0:30:56.160 --> 0:30:56.320
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

0:30:58.040 --> 0:31:01.480
<v Speaker 2>I've read a couple academics discussing the trial wasn't it

0:31:01.520 --> 0:31:03.840
<v Speaker 2>was about homosexuality, but it was also about the whole

0:31:03.840 --> 0:31:07.400
<v Speaker 2>gay Irish radical thing, right, because a lot of the

0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:10.360
<v Speaker 2>press treated it that way. At this time, papers were

0:31:10.360 --> 0:31:14.800
<v Speaker 2>excited to see someone attacked for attacking conventional morality. And

0:31:14.840 --> 0:31:17.880
<v Speaker 2>even this esthetic movement idea of art for art's sake

0:31:18.000 --> 0:31:21.800
<v Speaker 2>is attacking conventional morarality by refusing to make art that

0:31:21.920 --> 0:31:24.160
<v Speaker 2>specifically upholds traditional morality.

0:31:24.960 --> 0:31:25.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:31:25.480 --> 0:31:25.760
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:31:26.440 --> 0:31:31.840
<v Speaker 2>A modern Irish author, Diglon o'donhall wrote, quote, Unlike anarchist

0:31:31.880 --> 0:31:35.960
<v Speaker 2>assassins and bombers, who would always be outsiders, Wild was

0:31:36.000 --> 0:31:39.600
<v Speaker 2>embedded within the artistic and social elite. His position as

0:31:39.600 --> 0:31:42.800
<v Speaker 2>a revolutionary who enjoyed popular celebrity meant that he posed

0:31:42.800 --> 0:31:46.400
<v Speaker 2>a greater threat to the establishment by criticizing it from within,

0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:49.800
<v Speaker 2>and his enemies in the mainstream press were patiently waiting

0:31:49.800 --> 0:31:53.200
<v Speaker 2>for an opportunity to punish him for his public success.

0:31:53.680 --> 0:31:54.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah that makes sense.

0:31:55.160 --> 0:32:02.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And another piece around this, there's this Irish cop

0:32:02.400 --> 0:32:05.640
<v Speaker 2>in London who's anti Irish or anti Irish independence. His

0:32:05.720 --> 0:32:08.960
<v Speaker 2>name is Chief Inspector John Sweeney. He was an Irish

0:32:08.960 --> 0:32:11.640
<v Speaker 2>anti Fenian who spent a long ass time spying on

0:32:11.680 --> 0:32:15.120
<v Speaker 2>the Fenians in London, the Irish revolutionaries, and then he

0:32:15.240 --> 0:32:19.120
<v Speaker 2>moved over to spying on the anarchists and so the whole,

0:32:19.200 --> 0:32:22.040
<v Speaker 2>like the police state, will come to affect us too.

0:32:22.080 --> 0:32:22.280
<v Speaker 5>Write.

0:32:22.400 --> 0:32:28.080
<v Speaker 2>You know, in the eighteen nineties, British anarchists were largely writing,

0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:30.720
<v Speaker 2>not blowing things up. A lot of the continental anarchists

0:32:30.720 --> 0:32:32.840
<v Speaker 2>are in a like King killing stage, but not the

0:32:32.840 --> 0:32:37.400
<v Speaker 2>British anarchists so much so. His primary concern was how

0:32:37.440 --> 0:32:40.720
<v Speaker 2>to censor anarchists speech and how to shut down newspapers

0:32:40.720 --> 0:32:47.120
<v Speaker 2>and stop ideas from circulating. This does not feel coincidental. No,

0:32:48.280 --> 0:32:51.840
<v Speaker 2>as soon as Oscar Wilde is on trial, before he's convicted,

0:32:52.000 --> 0:32:54.600
<v Speaker 2>his name is stripped off the marquees at the theaters

0:32:54.680 --> 0:32:57.640
<v Speaker 2>running his plays, and soon enough the plays themselves are stopped.

0:32:57.880 --> 0:33:00.880
<v Speaker 2>The public like turns on him on a dot. The

0:33:00.920 --> 0:33:06.400
<v Speaker 2>press calls him the a laureate of corruption. Wow, everyone

0:33:06.480 --> 0:33:09.320
<v Speaker 2>gets on name. I know, I know, I've all right

0:33:09.360 --> 0:33:11.800
<v Speaker 2>with that. Like, yeah, never.

0:33:11.680 --> 0:33:13.920
<v Speaker 3>Really was too. If he weren't, if he wasn't like

0:33:14.680 --> 0:33:17.320
<v Speaker 3>stuck in jail, he might enjoyed it. Yeah.

0:33:17.360 --> 0:33:19.160
<v Speaker 2>He has this quote when he's a younger that I

0:33:19.160 --> 0:33:20.800
<v Speaker 2>don't have in Frontman and put in the script where

0:33:20.800 --> 0:33:23.760
<v Speaker 2>he's like, I'm going to be famous or you know, notorious.

0:33:23.800 --> 0:33:30.920
<v Speaker 2>Whatever the man accomplished both, he did it, and yeah,

0:33:30.920 --> 0:33:33.720
<v Speaker 2>everyone's on board with stopping this vamporism from corrupting the world.

0:33:33.760 --> 0:33:37.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm the one making the specific vamporism comparison, but that

0:33:37.240 --> 0:33:40.280
<v Speaker 2>is the corruptor of youth, the groomer, the you know.

0:33:40.320 --> 0:33:42.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the like hypnotizing force.

0:33:42.880 --> 0:33:48.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, spoiler alert. If gay sex tikes you gay, it's

0:33:48.240 --> 0:33:49.040
<v Speaker 2>because you like it.

0:33:50.520 --> 0:33:54.560
<v Speaker 3>Anita Bryant did the vampire metaphor for gay men in

0:33:54.600 --> 0:33:55.280
<v Speaker 3>the seventies.

0:33:55.760 --> 0:33:57.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh shit, yeah, should look at that up.

0:33:58.080 --> 0:34:01.320
<v Speaker 3>She said that because gay men and eat sperm, they're

0:34:01.360 --> 0:34:04.720
<v Speaker 3>eating life itself or something like that, and so their vampires.

0:34:04.920 --> 0:34:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh this is someone who meant it negatively.

0:34:07.040 --> 0:34:10.719
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I once. Yeah, she was like

0:34:11.120 --> 0:34:15.520
<v Speaker 3>the Orange Juice spokeswoman who kind of single handedly started

0:34:15.560 --> 0:34:18.279
<v Speaker 3>the anti gay movement in the seventies.

0:34:18.600 --> 0:34:25.280
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I'm pretty like into gayness's monstrosity. Like yeah, sure,

0:34:26.200 --> 0:34:29.120
<v Speaker 2>So I'm like I have a vampire or whatever. You know.

0:34:29.640 --> 0:34:31.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, lots of gays, if not most enjoy a good

0:34:32.000 --> 0:34:32.640
<v Speaker 3>horror movie.

0:34:32.719 --> 0:34:37.439
<v Speaker 2>So I am. And so he's on trial. Most people

0:34:37.480 --> 0:34:39.960
<v Speaker 2>are turning their backs on him. He had spoken up

0:34:39.960 --> 0:34:42.080
<v Speaker 2>for the anarchists eight years prior, and the anarchists spoke

0:34:42.160 --> 0:34:46.719
<v Speaker 2>up for him. The broader socialist movement hadn't really grappled

0:34:46.800 --> 0:34:50.120
<v Speaker 2>with how they felt about homosexuality at this point, including

0:34:50.160 --> 0:34:53.040
<v Speaker 2>the anarchist movement. They hadn't like just sat down and

0:34:53.080 --> 0:34:55.560
<v Speaker 2>been like, what do we think about this? What's the

0:34:55.600 --> 0:34:58.879
<v Speaker 2>party line? You know, at least not that I've ever

0:34:58.880 --> 0:35:01.080
<v Speaker 2>been able to find. I've I've read a lot about

0:35:01.080 --> 0:35:04.640
<v Speaker 2>their like grappling with like the woman issue and colonialism

0:35:04.719 --> 0:35:07.280
<v Speaker 2>and things like that, right, but they hadn't like sat

0:35:07.320 --> 0:35:12.200
<v Speaker 2>there and thought about homosexuality as a movement. And Oscar

0:35:12.239 --> 0:35:17.400
<v Speaker 2>Wilde's trial brought pro homosexuality to the forefront of anarchist politics,

0:35:17.800 --> 0:35:20.080
<v Speaker 2>and from there, as best as I can conjecture, it

0:35:20.160 --> 0:35:23.279
<v Speaker 2>filtered out to the broader socialist left. At the time,

0:35:23.400 --> 0:35:28.120
<v Speaker 2>the broader socialist left despised Oscar wild in this homosexuality. Also,

0:35:28.120 --> 0:35:30.000
<v Speaker 2>they kept being mad at him for not being their

0:35:30.040 --> 0:35:32.799
<v Speaker 2>style of socialist. You know, it's possible that if he

0:35:32.880 --> 0:35:36.719
<v Speaker 2>had been a you know, Marxist, they the Marxist would

0:35:36.719 --> 0:35:38.680
<v Speaker 2>have been like, we're suddenly fine with gays, you know.

0:35:39.000 --> 0:35:41.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah.

0:35:41.840 --> 0:35:43.719
<v Speaker 2>It was the anarchist press that kept his essays and

0:35:43.760 --> 0:35:47.160
<v Speaker 2>plays in print after his fall from grace. I want

0:35:47.160 --> 0:35:49.680
<v Speaker 2>to say among because I actually don't specifically know that

0:35:49.719 --> 0:35:51.319
<v Speaker 2>no one else did, but I know a lot of

0:35:51.360 --> 0:35:53.680
<v Speaker 2>specific examples when the anarchist press did when no one

0:35:53.719 --> 0:35:57.040
<v Speaker 2>else would in various situations. It was one of the

0:35:57.080 --> 0:35:58.960
<v Speaker 2>only places you could go to read about the trial

0:35:59.000 --> 0:36:02.600
<v Speaker 2>and find things like people saying, hey, what if too

0:36:02.640 --> 0:36:05.239
<v Speaker 2>consenting adults can do whatever the fuck they want? What

0:36:05.320 --> 0:36:10.080
<v Speaker 2>the fuck is wrong with you? Even the homophobic anarchists

0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:13.640
<v Speaker 2>writing were like, hey, did you know you can read

0:36:13.680 --> 0:36:16.040
<v Speaker 2>portrait of Dorian Gray without like going out and touching

0:36:16.080 --> 0:36:19.200
<v Speaker 2>panes with some guy, like just stop censoring shit, what

0:36:19.280 --> 0:36:20.239
<v Speaker 2>the fuck is wrong with you?

0:36:20.600 --> 0:36:21.799
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

0:36:21.880 --> 0:36:24.359
<v Speaker 2>And I like, I kind of love it when people

0:36:24.400 --> 0:36:28.719
<v Speaker 2>who are like a little bit homophobic are like, well,

0:36:28.719 --> 0:36:31.120
<v Speaker 2>my values are more important to me than how I

0:36:31.160 --> 0:36:32.520
<v Speaker 2>have my own weird biases.

0:36:32.800 --> 0:36:34.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, totally.

0:36:35.960 --> 0:36:41.200
<v Speaker 2>But it did not save him, right, There was certainly

0:36:41.200 --> 0:36:44.719
<v Speaker 2>not a ton of public outcry to defend him, and

0:36:44.760 --> 0:36:47.880
<v Speaker 2>he went off to prison. Two years of hard labor

0:36:48.000 --> 0:36:50.680
<v Speaker 2>is very different than going to prison regular. It's actually

0:36:50.680 --> 0:36:52.400
<v Speaker 2>almostly a little bit like going to prison regular in

0:36:52.400 --> 0:36:55.520
<v Speaker 2>the United States now, yeah, right, But like at the time.

0:36:55.560 --> 0:36:58.399
<v Speaker 2>It was really really bad. It kills a lot of people,

0:36:58.480 --> 0:37:01.880
<v Speaker 2>and it functionally kills him. They functionally gave him a

0:37:01.880 --> 0:37:08.239
<v Speaker 2>death sentence. And what won't kill you or give you

0:37:08.280 --> 0:37:10.840
<v Speaker 2>a death sentence unless you get the ad for becoming

0:37:11.040 --> 0:37:17.160
<v Speaker 2>a jail or, which is a don't. When I say

0:37:17.160 --> 0:37:19.560
<v Speaker 2>that we're sponsored by all ads, I mean except the

0:37:19.600 --> 0:37:24.040
<v Speaker 2>one that says scope be it whatever. Here's ads. Everything's

0:37:24.040 --> 0:37:39.359
<v Speaker 2>horrible and we're back. And if you're listening to this

0:37:39.520 --> 0:37:43.000
<v Speaker 2>in prison while walking on a treadmill endlessly to grind

0:37:43.040 --> 0:37:47.360
<v Speaker 2>wheat into flour, then you might be Oscar wild, because

0:37:47.520 --> 0:37:49.839
<v Speaker 2>is that what it was? That's one of the things

0:37:49.880 --> 0:37:51.799
<v Speaker 2>he had to do. Now, he had to walk on

0:37:51.840 --> 0:37:54.680
<v Speaker 2>a treadmill to grind flower. It took me. Most of

0:37:54.680 --> 0:37:57.200
<v Speaker 2>the sources I found just said like, walked on a treadmill,

0:37:57.239 --> 0:38:02.560
<v Speaker 2>and I'm like, the fuck for why? Yeah? Yeah, but

0:38:02.920 --> 0:38:05.080
<v Speaker 2>it really is still kind of just for work. Like

0:38:05.120 --> 0:38:07.680
<v Speaker 2>he also had to scar his hands permanently to separate

0:38:07.719 --> 0:38:10.400
<v Speaker 2>old naval ropes I think soaked in tar pitch or

0:38:10.440 --> 0:38:14.120
<v Speaker 2>whatever into their individual threads. Oh my gosh.

0:38:14.160 --> 0:38:14.480
<v Speaker 5>Wow.

0:38:15.520 --> 0:38:17.759
<v Speaker 2>In the beginning of his time in prison, he was

0:38:17.760 --> 0:38:20.000
<v Speaker 2>only allowed to read the Bible and some old Christian

0:38:20.000 --> 0:38:24.560
<v Speaker 2>book called The Pilgrim's Progress. Eventually, a new warden arrived

0:38:24.600 --> 0:38:26.880
<v Speaker 2>and he was offered more books, and he read all

0:38:26.960 --> 0:38:29.960
<v Speaker 2>kinds of shit and all kinds of languages, especially read

0:38:29.960 --> 0:38:31.400
<v Speaker 2>a lot of Dante, and he read a lot of

0:38:31.400 --> 0:38:36.319
<v Speaker 2>theological texts, including this Catholic convert from Anglicanism named John

0:38:36.360 --> 0:38:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Henry Newman, who wrote a bunch about how every religion,

0:38:39.320 --> 0:38:42.560
<v Speaker 2>including like Heathen religions, contain truth. They contained revelation.

0:38:43.120 --> 0:38:43.680
<v Speaker 3>That's cool.

0:38:43.840 --> 0:38:46.800
<v Speaker 2>So he's reading like woke Catholic shit.

0:38:46.719 --> 0:38:49.959
<v Speaker 3>Kind of like mysticism or something like that, Nalism.

0:38:50.239 --> 0:38:53.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and he's not allowed to write while he's in jail,

0:38:53.960 --> 0:38:59.200
<v Speaker 2>except letters, So he writes a fifty five thousand word letter.

0:39:00.600 --> 0:39:07.960
<v Speaker 2>It's de bosy, but it's to everyone. It's a short novel. Basically,

0:39:08.000 --> 0:39:09.680
<v Speaker 2>he had to write it one page at a time

0:39:09.840 --> 0:39:12.080
<v Speaker 2>because as he finished each page, they'd take it away

0:39:12.080 --> 0:39:16.280
<v Speaker 2>from him. Sometimes I think people guess, like analysts guess

0:39:16.280 --> 0:39:18.160
<v Speaker 2>that he probably had about three pages at a time.

0:39:18.239 --> 0:39:21.480
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes because of the way this sentences and are structured

0:39:21.480 --> 0:39:24.880
<v Speaker 2>in it, it's a bit of a rambling autobiography as

0:39:24.920 --> 0:39:28.319
<v Speaker 2>well as a spiritual Triestas, and later when it's out,

0:39:28.360 --> 0:39:30.840
<v Speaker 2>a copy goes to Lord Alfred de Bosi, and a

0:39:30.880 --> 0:39:34.879
<v Speaker 2>copy gets published as De Profundus, which is after five

0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:38.880
<v Speaker 2>years after Oscar's death, and Deperfundus is a biblical reference,

0:39:38.880 --> 0:39:41.400
<v Speaker 2>and it means from the depths, comes from Psalm one

0:39:41.400 --> 0:39:44.120
<v Speaker 2>point thirty, from the depths, I have cried to you,

0:39:44.160 --> 0:39:48.760
<v Speaker 2>oh Lord. So it's basically it's like, hey, I'm in prison, yeah,

0:39:48.880 --> 0:39:51.919
<v Speaker 2>what it means, and it's a religious text in a way,

0:39:52.760 --> 0:39:56.320
<v Speaker 2>he realizes. He talks about how he's realized that suffering

0:39:56.400 --> 0:39:59.200
<v Speaker 2>is as important to his soul as the hedonism he'd appreciated.

0:39:59.480 --> 0:40:02.240
<v Speaker 2>He wrote, quote, I wanted to eat of the fruit

0:40:02.280 --> 0:40:04.280
<v Speaker 2>of all the trees in the garden of the world,

0:40:04.760 --> 0:40:07.240
<v Speaker 2>and so indeed I went out, and so I lived.

0:40:07.600 --> 0:40:10.880
<v Speaker 2>My only mistake was that I confined myself so exclusively

0:40:10.960 --> 0:40:13.120
<v Speaker 2>to the trees of what seemed to me to be

0:40:13.160 --> 0:40:15.439
<v Speaker 2>the sunlit side of the garden, and shunned the other

0:40:15.560 --> 0:40:19.440
<v Speaker 2>side for its shadow and its gloom. He also wrote,

0:40:19.880 --> 0:40:22.160
<v Speaker 2>there is not a single wretched man in this wretched

0:40:22.160 --> 0:40:24.840
<v Speaker 2>place along with me who does not stand in symbolic

0:40:24.920 --> 0:40:28.400
<v Speaker 2>relation to the very secret of life. For the secret

0:40:28.440 --> 0:40:31.360
<v Speaker 2>of life is suffering. It is what is hidden behind

0:40:31.400 --> 0:40:34.680
<v Speaker 2>everything when we begin to live. What is sweet is

0:40:34.719 --> 0:40:37.720
<v Speaker 2>so sweet to us, and what is bitter so bitter

0:40:38.320 --> 0:40:41.560
<v Speaker 2>that we inevitably direct all our desires towards pleasures, and

0:40:41.640 --> 0:40:44.640
<v Speaker 2>seek not merely for a month or twain to feed

0:40:44.680 --> 0:40:47.759
<v Speaker 2>on honeycomb, but for all our years to taste no

0:40:47.840 --> 0:40:50.880
<v Speaker 2>other food, ignorant all the while that we may really

0:40:50.880 --> 0:40:51.839
<v Speaker 2>be starving the soul.

0:40:53.920 --> 0:40:57.319
<v Speaker 3>Oh gosh, he was a good writer. I know, he

0:40:57.440 --> 0:40:59.280
<v Speaker 3>was a tremendously good writer.

0:41:00.200 --> 0:41:04.440
<v Speaker 2>No Ah. And so he's not saying I shouldn't have

0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:10.760
<v Speaker 2>done the joy sex stuff. He's saying everything has this value,

0:41:11.200 --> 0:41:11.360
<v Speaker 2>you know.

0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:17.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Wow. Do you think then that he like did

0:41:17.840 --> 0:41:24.040
<v Speaker 3>feel the criticisms that were leveled against him for being

0:41:24.160 --> 0:41:27.759
<v Speaker 3>kind of like a frivolous person, or do you think

0:41:27.800 --> 0:41:32.319
<v Speaker 3>that like he I'm just interested because that quote is

0:41:32.440 --> 0:41:35.880
<v Speaker 3>just like what do you think that he meant exactly

0:41:35.920 --> 0:41:37.799
<v Speaker 3>when he was saying that? Like, do you think it

0:41:37.840 --> 0:41:39.200
<v Speaker 3>was reflective of his life?

0:41:40.000 --> 0:41:42.480
<v Speaker 2>So I haven't read every I haven't read all the profundus.

0:41:42.480 --> 0:41:45.440
<v Speaker 2>I actually read his very long poem immediately after that

0:41:45.560 --> 0:41:47.960
<v Speaker 2>is the main thing I read about it. But I

0:41:48.000 --> 0:41:53.680
<v Speaker 2>get the impression that he does regret like some of

0:41:53.719 --> 0:41:57.319
<v Speaker 2>the ways in which he was frivolous, right, but he

0:41:57.480 --> 0:42:01.359
<v Speaker 2>doesn't regret the like core of it. He stays Antinomian.

0:42:01.440 --> 0:42:05.239
<v Speaker 2>He stays believing that, you know, you don't have to

0:42:05.280 --> 0:42:08.120
<v Speaker 2>ascribe to a specific moral path in order to reach heaven.

0:42:08.239 --> 0:42:11.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah whatever, right. Yeah. So it's like it's it's hard

0:42:11.640 --> 0:42:14.759
<v Speaker 2>because it's like there is regret, but then it's like

0:42:14.760 --> 0:42:16.920
<v Speaker 2>like a spoiler, he's going to convert to Catholicism on

0:42:16.960 --> 0:42:19.200
<v Speaker 2>his deathbed, and so there's like Catholic articles that are

0:42:19.200 --> 0:42:21.759
<v Speaker 2>like and then he's sorry about being gay, and I'm like, yeah,

0:42:21.800 --> 0:42:25.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm not a no, it just meant something very different

0:42:26.280 --> 0:42:27.440
<v Speaker 2>at that time, you know.

0:42:27.840 --> 0:42:31.040
<v Speaker 3>And Catholicism just fits so well with his sort of

0:42:31.120 --> 0:42:34.879
<v Speaker 3>decadence as well, like image like images, and yeah, it's

0:42:35.000 --> 0:42:39.120
<v Speaker 3>just it's it's bloody, it's golden, it's you know, things

0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:40.200
<v Speaker 3>he likes velvety.

0:42:40.880 --> 0:42:43.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's a quote I Am about Catholicism from way

0:42:43.600 --> 0:42:45.080
<v Speaker 2>Younger that's at the end of this script.

0:42:45.160 --> 0:42:46.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:42:46.840 --> 0:42:51.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so that's I think he's like he's like sorry,

0:42:51.160 --> 0:42:55.840
<v Speaker 2>he's not sorry, you know. Yeah. Yeah, and prison fucks

0:42:55.880 --> 0:42:59.359
<v Speaker 2>him up. Physically. The food is terrible. Everyone is constantly sick,

0:42:59.400 --> 0:43:03.160
<v Speaker 2>like everyone's dye area constantly. He collapsed from exhaustion one

0:43:03.239 --> 0:43:05.640
<v Speaker 2>day and he ruptured his ear drum and this later

0:43:05.800 --> 0:43:10.800
<v Speaker 2>kills him. He's transferred to another prison, which is reading jail,

0:43:10.920 --> 0:43:15.880
<v Speaker 2>which should be pronounced reading gayel because I'm an American

0:43:15.920 --> 0:43:17.719
<v Speaker 2>and I will never get over how the British spell

0:43:17.760 --> 0:43:18.480
<v Speaker 2>the word jail?

0:43:19.200 --> 0:43:19.800
<v Speaker 3>Is it with a G?

0:43:20.680 --> 0:43:23.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Gaol laird?

0:43:24.200 --> 0:43:27.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, okay, all right, yeah?

0:43:27.960 --> 0:43:29.840
<v Speaker 2>How did they conquer the world? I don't even notice?

0:43:30.440 --> 0:43:39.200
<v Speaker 2>Right in English? And while he's not impressed, And at

0:43:39.200 --> 0:43:41.719
<v Speaker 2>one point while he's being transferred, he's underguard on the

0:43:41.760 --> 0:43:44.160
<v Speaker 2>train platform and a crowd forms around him and like

0:43:44.239 --> 0:43:46.279
<v Speaker 2>spits on him and jeers him, and this is like

0:43:46.680 --> 0:43:49.400
<v Speaker 2>presented as the worst, the lowest time of his prison,

0:43:49.560 --> 0:43:53.840
<v Speaker 2>even though obviously the like time and you know whatever,

0:43:54.239 --> 0:43:55.160
<v Speaker 2>it sucks, it's bad.

0:43:55.560 --> 0:43:56.279
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:43:56.360 --> 0:43:59.520
<v Speaker 2>In Reading, he no longer like they don't call him

0:43:59.520 --> 0:44:01.799
<v Speaker 2>by his name anymore. He is only C three three.

0:44:02.280 --> 0:44:04.279
<v Speaker 2>He is on the third floor of the third cell

0:44:04.360 --> 0:44:07.759
<v Speaker 2>of the Sea Ward and his mother dies while he's

0:44:07.760 --> 0:44:10.080
<v Speaker 2>in prison. She appeals to be able to see her

0:44:10.080 --> 0:44:14.160
<v Speaker 2>son one last time, and this is denied. His wife

0:44:14.800 --> 0:44:17.800
<v Speaker 2>changes her last name and moves to Switzerland and takes

0:44:17.800 --> 0:44:21.000
<v Speaker 2>their kids with her. He never sees his children again.

0:44:22.360 --> 0:44:25.000
<v Speaker 2>He's forced to declare bankruptcy while he's in prison, and

0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:27.919
<v Speaker 2>I believe that they're confiscating his copyrights as well as

0:44:28.000 --> 0:44:32.840
<v Speaker 2>his belongings. In eighteen ninety seven, he's released penniless and

0:44:32.880 --> 0:44:34.600
<v Speaker 2>he gets the fuck out of England and he does

0:44:34.640 --> 0:44:36.759
<v Speaker 2>what he should have done ten fucking years earlier, and

0:44:36.800 --> 0:44:39.960
<v Speaker 2>he goes to France. He never goes back to England.

0:44:40.360 --> 0:44:42.480
<v Speaker 2>He spends the last three years of his life in Paris,

0:44:42.520 --> 0:44:47.239
<v Speaker 2>living under a pseudonym, Sebastian Melmouth, which is a combination

0:44:47.280 --> 0:44:50.400
<v Speaker 2>of Saint Sebastian, the one who likes getting stabbed and stuff.

0:44:50.440 --> 0:44:53.359
<v Speaker 2>The mask is Saint and then Melmoth, the Wanderer from

0:44:53.400 --> 0:44:54.200
<v Speaker 2>his uncle's book.

0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:55.560
<v Speaker 3>It's pretty cool.

0:44:55.760 --> 0:44:58.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know it's a good name. Yeah, it's a

0:44:58.080 --> 0:45:00.400
<v Speaker 2>pretty transmasque name. But if anyone's looking for a new

0:45:00.400 --> 0:45:01.279
<v Speaker 2>trans mask name.

0:45:01.239 --> 0:45:01.879
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there you go.

0:45:02.040 --> 0:45:03.840
<v Speaker 2>It's a fast and Melmouth it's right there for you.

0:45:05.360 --> 0:45:07.920
<v Speaker 2>Although I'll do my follow up Oscar Wild as an

0:45:07.920 --> 0:45:12.399
<v Speaker 2>egg trans woman episode one day, but yeah, yeah, that's

0:45:12.480 --> 0:45:19.080
<v Speaker 2>pure conjecture and or you know. So at this point

0:45:19.120 --> 0:45:22.200
<v Speaker 2>he's out of prison. His primary contributions to society are

0:45:22.200 --> 0:45:25.240
<v Speaker 2>to write long letters about the need for penal reform

0:45:25.880 --> 0:45:27.920
<v Speaker 2>and to write a poem. One of his most famous

0:45:28.280 --> 0:45:31.920
<v Speaker 2>called the Ballad of Reading Jail, or as I like

0:45:32.000 --> 0:45:36.919
<v Speaker 2>to say, the Ballad of Reading Gail. It's really good,

0:45:37.120 --> 0:45:40.719
<v Speaker 2>it's very long, it's worth reading. It's very like rimy, right.

0:45:41.440 --> 0:45:44.000
<v Speaker 3>I think you only ever really wrote poems in rhyme.

0:45:44.400 --> 0:45:45.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just style at the time.

0:45:45.920 --> 0:45:48.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, there wasn't a lot of like lyricism.

0:45:49.040 --> 0:45:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Yet I was born in the twentieth century. All poetry,

0:45:52.600 --> 0:45:54.359
<v Speaker 2>it should be free for him. I don't understand all

0:45:54.400 --> 0:45:58.120
<v Speaker 2>of the writing, but I know it's really good and

0:45:58.800 --> 0:46:02.040
<v Speaker 2>it's really interesting. He can't get it published under his name,

0:46:02.239 --> 0:46:05.080
<v Speaker 2>right because no one will touch it. But he's really good,

0:46:05.640 --> 0:46:08.200
<v Speaker 2>So it gets published under the name C. Three three,

0:46:08.480 --> 0:46:11.960
<v Speaker 2>his jail name. Wow, no one in America will touch

0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:14.640
<v Speaker 2>it at all until the anarchist press is like, all right,

0:46:14.680 --> 0:46:17.120
<v Speaker 2>well we'll publish it, which worked really well for the

0:46:17.160 --> 0:46:20.040
<v Speaker 2>anarchist press, and I think they actually were like I

0:46:20.040 --> 0:46:22.760
<v Speaker 2>think they put his name on it. By the seventh

0:46:22.880 --> 0:46:25.359
<v Speaker 2>printing in because it keeps selling out and they keep

0:46:25.400 --> 0:46:28.760
<v Speaker 2>printing more. It does really well. And it's a moral

0:46:28.840 --> 0:46:32.360
<v Speaker 2>panic too, which is funny because it is the most

0:46:32.400 --> 0:46:36.920
<v Speaker 2>like Christian socialist thing you'll read. It is a it

0:46:36.960 --> 0:46:40.080
<v Speaker 2>makes you sympathize with a criminal. It is about watching

0:46:40.080 --> 0:46:42.360
<v Speaker 2>a man get hanged who killed his wife. It is

0:46:42.400 --> 0:46:44.880
<v Speaker 2>about a man who is not a good man being killed,

0:46:46.560 --> 0:46:50.040
<v Speaker 2>and it makes you hate the prison system. Yeah, this

0:46:50.360 --> 0:46:54.200
<v Speaker 2>just really I don't know, I found it very moving. Yeah,

0:46:53.560 --> 0:46:56.880
<v Speaker 2>and people are like, ah, it's terrible, it's immoral. It

0:46:56.920 --> 0:46:59.319
<v Speaker 2>makes you sympathize with the criminal. And then like some

0:46:59.360 --> 0:47:02.080
<v Speaker 2>people were like even like as they were to cry

0:47:02.080 --> 0:47:03.719
<v Speaker 2>and it, they were like, it's forcing you to have

0:47:03.880 --> 0:47:12.160
<v Speaker 2>really high Christian ethics and like it just broke every Yeah,

0:47:12.280 --> 0:47:16.160
<v Speaker 2>it just broke everyone's brains. Yeah. His wife was said

0:47:16.160 --> 0:47:18.120
<v Speaker 2>in about like I think five pounds a week, which

0:47:18.160 --> 0:47:20.799
<v Speaker 2>does not translate to a lot in modern money, and

0:47:20.800 --> 0:47:23.279
<v Speaker 2>that says like allowance basically, and that's what he's living

0:47:23.280 --> 0:47:25.360
<v Speaker 2>off of. And then he gets the royalties from that poem.

0:47:26.840 --> 0:47:30.760
<v Speaker 2>And he missed his children every day he talked about

0:47:31.160 --> 0:47:35.279
<v Speaker 2>and Robert Ross, Robbie Ross, his lifelong friend, joined him

0:47:35.320 --> 0:47:37.480
<v Speaker 2>in Paris, or I think was maybe already in Paris honestly,

0:47:37.760 --> 0:47:40.959
<v Speaker 2>but moves in with him, and after a few years,

0:47:40.960 --> 0:47:44.439
<v Speaker 2>Oscar's health declines. His ruptured ear drum gets infected, which

0:47:44.520 --> 0:47:48.200
<v Speaker 2>leads to meningitis, which is going to kill him. He

0:47:48.239 --> 0:47:51.200
<v Speaker 2>died in Paris on November thirtieth, nineteen hundred, at forty

0:47:51.239 --> 0:47:54.280
<v Speaker 2>six years old. On his deathbed in a rundown hotel,

0:47:54.560 --> 0:47:59.080
<v Speaker 2>he converted to Catholicism, and his quote that he had

0:47:59.080 --> 0:48:00.959
<v Speaker 2>once said a long time because he tried to convert

0:48:01.000 --> 0:48:02.640
<v Speaker 2>Cathosism a long time ago, and his dad was like,

0:48:02.640 --> 0:48:06.200
<v Speaker 2>fuck you. You know he had once said, the Catholic Church

0:48:06.239 --> 0:48:09.279
<v Speaker 2>is for saints and sinners alone, for respectable people. The

0:48:09.320 --> 0:48:13.400
<v Speaker 2>Anglican Church will do. This is not extra enough, like

0:48:13.400 --> 0:48:16.040
<v Speaker 2>what you're saying, like like you know, the Catholic Church.

0:48:16.040 --> 0:48:20.160
<v Speaker 2>He gets a drink blood and like be amenable, like cooler,

0:48:20.600 --> 0:48:22.680
<v Speaker 2>like carry around skulls.

0:48:23.080 --> 0:48:24.960
<v Speaker 3>Who was with him, was like did he have a

0:48:24.960 --> 0:48:27.319
<v Speaker 3>priest there with him or something? Or how do we know?

0:48:27.400 --> 0:48:30.120
<v Speaker 2>He? Yeah, so Robbie Ross went and got a priest

0:48:30.160 --> 0:48:33.160
<v Speaker 2>who came over and he's like in and out of consciousness,

0:48:33.160 --> 0:48:37.080
<v Speaker 2>but he's able to indicate the priest is like, all right,

0:48:37.080 --> 0:48:38.759
<v Speaker 2>you're doing this, and he like kind of raises his

0:48:38.840 --> 0:48:42.959
<v Speaker 2>hand feebly. Sure, there doesn't seem to be contention around this.

0:48:43.320 --> 0:48:45.719
<v Speaker 3>Okay, because it makes me almost think and this is

0:48:45.760 --> 0:48:50.320
<v Speaker 3>like such a weird example, but like Ted Bundy converting

0:48:50.719 --> 0:48:54.439
<v Speaker 3>to Christianity at the end and then blaming everything on pornography,

0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:58.000
<v Speaker 3>and that was like a manipulating thing, yeah, to like,

0:48:58.400 --> 0:49:00.719
<v Speaker 3>you know, support a right wing agenda. So I was

0:49:00.760 --> 0:49:03.600
<v Speaker 3>just curious if there was any possibility right that like

0:49:04.200 --> 0:49:07.480
<v Speaker 3>this priest had an agenda or something. But sounds like

0:49:07.560 --> 0:49:10.160
<v Speaker 3>it's not, like you said, it's not argued about too much.

0:49:10.560 --> 0:49:12.880
<v Speaker 2>That's the best guess I have. There are a lot

0:49:12.880 --> 0:49:14.440
<v Speaker 2>of people who are like and he was sorry for

0:49:14.520 --> 0:49:16.360
<v Speaker 2>being gay, and I'm like, I'm not finding a lot

0:49:16.400 --> 0:49:19.360
<v Speaker 2>of evidence I'm sorry for being gay. But it is possible.

0:49:19.440 --> 0:49:22.600
<v Speaker 2>It is possible that this is like I might be

0:49:22.640 --> 0:49:24.239
<v Speaker 2>reading it the way that I want to, because he

0:49:24.239 --> 0:49:26.640
<v Speaker 2>talks about being Antonomian. He you know, to the end

0:49:26.640 --> 0:49:29.799
<v Speaker 2>of his days he talks about like I feel like

0:49:29.800 --> 0:49:32.200
<v Speaker 2>I get a sense of like, oh, yeah, of course

0:49:32.200 --> 0:49:34.000
<v Speaker 2>he ended up Catholic. This is the shitt he's writing

0:49:34.080 --> 0:49:38.200
<v Speaker 2>rather than like he fits neatly into the tradcaf assumption

0:49:38.719 --> 0:49:40.279
<v Speaker 2>of now you know.

0:49:41.000 --> 0:49:45.360
<v Speaker 3>And going to prison too famously makes folks more religious

0:49:45.360 --> 0:49:47.799
<v Speaker 3>because you have to have hope in something, and so

0:49:47.920 --> 0:49:50.759
<v Speaker 3>it makes sense that maybe he found and he was

0:49:50.800 --> 0:49:55.759
<v Speaker 3>also being given almost only religious or theological.

0:49:55.320 --> 0:49:57.719
<v Speaker 2>Text that was actually what he was asking for. The

0:49:58.000 --> 0:50:00.920
<v Speaker 2>at first, he's stuck with the Bible and the progress.

0:50:01.280 --> 0:50:02.879
<v Speaker 2>Although I don't know if they would have brought him

0:50:02.920 --> 0:50:05.520
<v Speaker 2>like actually know, because they also did bring him William

0:50:05.520 --> 0:50:07.560
<v Speaker 2>Peter Books. Yeah, no, I don't know they would have

0:50:07.600 --> 0:50:11.000
<v Speaker 2>given him porn. Yeah, well there's some porn in the Bible, but.

0:50:11.280 --> 0:50:14.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean that's true, there is, yeah.

0:50:14.760 --> 0:50:17.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, yeah. It's it's interesting to be because it's

0:50:17.760 --> 0:50:20.279
<v Speaker 2>like every read of Oscar Wilde like picks one thing

0:50:20.400 --> 0:50:23.440
<v Speaker 2>and it's like Oscar Wilde, the Catholic, Oscar wild the irishman,

0:50:23.520 --> 0:50:26.600
<v Speaker 2>Oscar wild the anarchist, Oscar wild the meaningless, witty guy,

0:50:27.040 --> 0:50:29.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, yeah, and you're like, he can just be

0:50:29.840 --> 0:50:32.080
<v Speaker 2>all those things, and they're things that people want to

0:50:32.120 --> 0:50:35.360
<v Speaker 2>claim are paradoxical and often can be and are presented

0:50:35.360 --> 0:50:37.680
<v Speaker 2>as paradoxical. But for me, it just seems like he

0:50:38.080 --> 0:50:41.520
<v Speaker 2>threaded that needle, you know well, and like, who who.

0:50:41.360 --> 0:50:44.480
<v Speaker 3>Is not paradoxical? It's so weird to think that, No,

0:50:44.760 --> 0:50:47.200
<v Speaker 3>like you can't be a paradoxical person.

0:50:47.680 --> 0:50:50.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I totally feel like I am. I don't know.

0:50:50.520 --> 0:50:51.680
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:50:51.719 --> 0:50:55.000
<v Speaker 2>And his last witticism that apparently he used on like

0:50:55.000 --> 0:50:57.719
<v Speaker 2>everyone who came to visit him on his deathbed was

0:50:58.600 --> 0:51:01.760
<v Speaker 2>this wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death.

0:51:02.200 --> 0:51:07.120
<v Speaker 2>Either it goes or I do. It is such a

0:51:07.120 --> 0:51:14.840
<v Speaker 2>template for this sassk man. It's just incredible. And Robbie

0:51:14.880 --> 0:51:16.759
<v Speaker 2>Ross was with him as he died, as was the

0:51:16.760 --> 0:51:19.879
<v Speaker 2>priest Emma Goldman, I promise you. And Emma Goldman quote

0:51:19.920 --> 0:51:24.759
<v Speaker 2>about him, who herself is quite quotable. She said about him,

0:51:25.000 --> 0:51:28.400
<v Speaker 2>while society forgives the criminal, it never forgives the dreamer.

0:51:29.400 --> 0:51:31.759
<v Speaker 3>Wow. Yeah.

0:51:31.800 --> 0:51:34.840
<v Speaker 2>And one of his sons, Cyril, is killed by a

0:51:34.880 --> 0:51:38.160
<v Speaker 2>German sniper in nineteen fifteen in World War One. His

0:51:38.280 --> 0:51:41.520
<v Speaker 2>daughter Dorothy took after him most directly. She became a

0:51:41.520 --> 0:51:44.080
<v Speaker 2>witty conversationalist and was an out lesbian.

0:51:45.640 --> 0:51:47.080
<v Speaker 3>I didn't know that.

0:51:47.080 --> 0:51:48.000
<v Speaker 2>That's so nice.

0:51:48.280 --> 0:51:50.640
<v Speaker 3>It feels like he gets to live on in some

0:51:50.680 --> 0:51:51.879
<v Speaker 3>way in a different time.

0:51:52.080 --> 0:51:57.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally. And that's one of the stories about Oscar Wild.

0:51:57.600 --> 0:51:59.799
<v Speaker 2>There's a thousand stories that can be told. I want

0:51:59.800 --> 0:52:01.479
<v Speaker 2>to shout out that. If you want to learn more

0:52:01.520 --> 0:52:06.439
<v Speaker 2>specifically about how he related to homosexuality, there's a two

0:52:06.480 --> 0:52:09.280
<v Speaker 2>parter from a few years ago by the podcast Queer's

0:52:09.360 --> 0:52:15.520
<v Speaker 2>Fact that Cool is Real worth listening to. Yeah, that's wow.

0:52:15.920 --> 0:52:18.799
<v Speaker 2>Oscar Wild the very different than I thought he would

0:52:18.800 --> 0:52:20.360
<v Speaker 2>be when I started off reading.

0:52:20.600 --> 0:52:24.000
<v Speaker 3>No, I had no idea about probably eighty percent of

0:52:24.040 --> 0:52:26.479
<v Speaker 3>what you've still be here today. I just never thought

0:52:26.480 --> 0:52:29.200
<v Speaker 3>of Oscar Wild as a political person really in any way,

0:52:29.480 --> 0:52:33.040
<v Speaker 3>almost anti political right. So that's and do you think

0:52:33.080 --> 0:52:37.600
<v Speaker 3>that there's any like reason that he's been painted that

0:52:37.640 --> 0:52:40.600
<v Speaker 3>way and been like almost like it just feels like

0:52:40.680 --> 0:52:43.720
<v Speaker 3>the revolutionary side of him has been like cleaned away

0:52:44.040 --> 0:52:46.120
<v Speaker 3>and almost like him because in my mind he was

0:52:46.160 --> 0:52:50.040
<v Speaker 3>like a decadent, kind of almost out of touch, yeah,

0:52:50.200 --> 0:52:52.520
<v Speaker 3>rich person who happened to be a beautiful writer and

0:52:52.680 --> 0:52:55.719
<v Speaker 3>have like, you know, a huge skill with language. But

0:52:55.760 --> 0:52:59.439
<v Speaker 3>I never thought of him as a radical, yeah, really

0:52:59.480 --> 0:53:00.320
<v Speaker 3>in any way.

0:53:00.920 --> 0:53:02.799
<v Speaker 2>Well, at one point I forgot to ended up in

0:53:02.840 --> 0:53:05.960
<v Speaker 2>a script at one point eighteen ninety two, this like

0:53:06.280 --> 0:53:08.759
<v Speaker 2>this anarchist poet is having a mental breakdown, I think,

0:53:08.840 --> 0:53:11.120
<v Speaker 2>and takes like potshots at the House of Commons, just

0:53:11.200 --> 0:53:14.880
<v Speaker 2>like shoots at the wall or whatever. Oscar Wild pays

0:53:14.920 --> 0:53:17.480
<v Speaker 2>his bail and writes a letter to him and is like,

0:53:17.719 --> 0:53:20.760
<v Speaker 2>of course I support you, like everything is like everything

0:53:20.800 --> 0:53:23.480
<v Speaker 2>but saying comrade doesn't say comrade, but it's like, h

0:53:23.840 --> 0:53:26.080
<v Speaker 2>of course I support you. Like us dreamers have to

0:53:26.120 --> 0:53:31.440
<v Speaker 2>stick together, you know. I have found that there's certain

0:53:31.520 --> 0:53:34.640
<v Speaker 2>things that people like not talking about in historical figures,

0:53:34.680 --> 0:53:36.560
<v Speaker 2>and one of them is gayness. And you can't do

0:53:36.640 --> 0:53:39.719
<v Speaker 2>it to Oscar Wild, who people actually try by specifically

0:53:39.760 --> 0:53:41.560
<v Speaker 2>trying to pain him as a pedophile instead of.

0:53:41.680 --> 0:53:43.720
<v Speaker 3>A gaming Oh yeah, okay.

0:53:44.440 --> 0:53:46.640
<v Speaker 2>And one of the other things that people try to

0:53:46.680 --> 0:53:52.160
<v Speaker 2>write out of history is political positions, especially anarchism, because

0:53:52.200 --> 0:53:55.400
<v Speaker 2>anarchism is like it's a harder sell to more people,

0:53:55.760 --> 0:53:59.120
<v Speaker 2>and there are more political positions that specifically. This is

0:53:59.280 --> 0:54:03.600
<v Speaker 2>most conspiracytorial i'll probably ever be, but stay communists and

0:54:03.640 --> 0:54:07.360
<v Speaker 2>capitalists both have a vested interest in having people not

0:54:07.520 --> 0:54:11.600
<v Speaker 2>know about anarchist history. I find that, like it's funny

0:54:11.600 --> 0:54:14.319
<v Speaker 2>because like social democrats don't have as much of that

0:54:14.360 --> 0:54:17.160
<v Speaker 2>and you'll like see more earnest actually talking about anarchism

0:54:17.160 --> 0:54:20.160
<v Speaker 2>within like social democrat circles. This is my experience of this.

0:54:21.239 --> 0:54:24.680
<v Speaker 2>So I think that it's a combination. It's also that

0:54:24.719 --> 0:54:28.840
<v Speaker 2>people don't want to talk about. They want asceticism to

0:54:28.920 --> 0:54:35.120
<v Speaker 2>be completely vapid and frivolous and don't want to address.

0:54:35.280 --> 0:54:37.320
<v Speaker 2>And I even thought that I went to art school

0:54:37.320 --> 0:54:38.760
<v Speaker 2>for two years and I hated it and I hated

0:54:38.760 --> 0:54:40.440
<v Speaker 2>people walk around me like our for art sake, and

0:54:40.440 --> 0:54:43.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm like fuck that, Like yeah, you know, but then

0:54:43.520 --> 0:54:48.480
<v Speaker 2>once you understand it as like, well, shouldn't we live

0:54:48.520 --> 0:54:53.600
<v Speaker 2>beautiful lives? Yeah, shouldn't we seek to make the spaces

0:54:53.640 --> 0:54:57.200
<v Speaker 2>that we are in esthetically pleasing? You know, It's like

0:54:57.200 --> 0:55:00.399
<v Speaker 2>saying interior design matters, and not that interior design needs

0:55:00.440 --> 0:55:02.880
<v Speaker 2>to be covered in political posters. But then instead interior

0:55:02.880 --> 0:55:06.400
<v Speaker 2>design like helps us live beautiful lives and be our

0:55:06.400 --> 0:55:08.799
<v Speaker 2>best selves. And so I think that it's just that

0:55:08.840 --> 0:55:12.799
<v Speaker 2>people don't want meaning out of him, you know, they

0:55:12.840 --> 0:55:13.399
<v Speaker 2>want well.

0:55:13.280 --> 0:55:15.799
<v Speaker 3>And I guess there's like a big difference between like

0:55:16.040 --> 0:55:21.120
<v Speaker 3>the aesthetics of like decadence, meaning like that comes out

0:55:21.200 --> 0:55:25.839
<v Speaker 3>of richness versus like you said, I think we said

0:55:25.840 --> 0:55:29.800
<v Speaker 3>in part one about like planting wildflowers outside. That's still

0:55:29.840 --> 0:55:33.480
<v Speaker 3>like they're they're in service of the same like internal

0:55:33.520 --> 0:55:37.719
<v Speaker 3>transformation that happens when you witness beauty, because that it's

0:55:37.719 --> 0:55:41.520
<v Speaker 3>a it's a transformational act that I think teaches empathy.

0:55:41.840 --> 0:55:46.360
<v Speaker 3>Like experiencing beauty is something that encourages empathy. And it

0:55:46.360 --> 0:55:50.799
<v Speaker 3>doesn't have to have anything to do with material things.

0:55:51.040 --> 0:55:52.960
<v Speaker 3>It just has to do with like, I mean, it

0:55:53.000 --> 0:55:54.880
<v Speaker 3>does have to do with material things, but you know

0:55:54.920 --> 0:55:57.759
<v Speaker 3>what I mean, it doesn't there's no caliber of material

0:55:57.840 --> 0:56:03.279
<v Speaker 3>thing that is beautiful by virtue of it being that way, right,

0:56:03.360 --> 0:56:06.440
<v Speaker 3>It's like you can have, you know, you can have

0:56:06.520 --> 0:56:09.879
<v Speaker 3>a mansion that's ugly as fuck, you know, like, and

0:56:09.920 --> 0:56:13.320
<v Speaker 3>you can have like a space that you've made beautiful

0:56:13.920 --> 0:56:18.160
<v Speaker 3>without any real wealth, you know. So yeah, I think

0:56:18.200 --> 0:56:21.399
<v Speaker 3>that it's easy to think that beauty is some sort

0:56:21.400 --> 0:56:24.120
<v Speaker 3>of an elite concept, but it really isn't.

0:56:24.960 --> 0:56:27.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And it's funny because because one of the things

0:56:27.280 --> 0:56:30.520
<v Speaker 2>he talks about sometimes is he talks about how one

0:56:30.560 --> 0:56:33.160
<v Speaker 2>of the reasons that we have to end poverty is

0:56:33.200 --> 0:56:38.080
<v Speaker 2>so that people can create and so that they don't

0:56:38.120 --> 0:56:41.239
<v Speaker 2>have to spend all of their hours working, you know,

0:56:41.640 --> 0:56:44.080
<v Speaker 2>so that they can create. Like he was very he

0:56:44.160 --> 0:56:46.839
<v Speaker 2>was also he was also I didn't even put in

0:56:47.160 --> 0:56:52.040
<v Speaker 2>he's totally fully luxuriated, fully automated, luxury space communism. He

0:56:52.160 --> 0:56:54.720
<v Speaker 2>is like, we'll get the machines to do the work

0:56:54.960 --> 0:56:57.120
<v Speaker 2>so that we can make the art. And of course

0:56:57.120 --> 0:56:59.319
<v Speaker 2>now we live in a horrible nightmare in version of

0:56:59.360 --> 0:57:02.839
<v Speaker 2>that where the machines are coming for the art and

0:57:02.880 --> 0:57:07.960
<v Speaker 2>not the right word, right. But yeah, no, I just

0:57:08.040 --> 0:57:10.560
<v Speaker 2>like I like him so much more than I I

0:57:11.000 --> 0:57:16.400
<v Speaker 2>was like always cool, you know, Like, but I'm like, no, yeah,

0:57:16.440 --> 0:57:20.439
<v Speaker 2>like socialism for art's sake, not art for socialism's sake.

0:57:20.480 --> 0:57:22.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I'm on board.

0:57:22.800 --> 0:57:25.720
<v Speaker 3>I get it. I like it. Yeah, I love it.

0:57:27.640 --> 0:57:31.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's that's fantastic.

0:57:31.760 --> 0:57:33.760
<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much for telling me all of this.

0:57:33.920 --> 0:57:37.040
<v Speaker 3>I really like, I feel, I don't know, it's really

0:57:37.120 --> 0:57:40.920
<v Speaker 3>it's making me rethink so much about my life because

0:57:40.960 --> 0:57:43.920
<v Speaker 3>I've just I've loved Oscar Wilde and in such a

0:57:44.000 --> 0:57:46.160
<v Speaker 3>you know, it's just such a specific way, and you know,

0:57:46.200 --> 0:57:49.200
<v Speaker 3>it really does Like I think of his grave, you know,

0:57:49.280 --> 0:57:52.000
<v Speaker 3>which is such a such a beautiful image for anyone

0:57:52.000 --> 0:57:55.640
<v Speaker 3>who doesn't know, you know, like he had I believe

0:57:55.680 --> 0:57:58.840
<v Speaker 3>like a marble tombstone would do you remember what it says.

0:58:00.040 --> 0:58:02.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it's a quote from Deperfundus, but I don't remember

0:58:02.440 --> 0:58:04.320
<v Speaker 2>what it is, right, or maybe it's a quote from

0:58:04.520 --> 0:58:06.160
<v Speaker 2>the Ballad of Reading Jail.

0:58:07.120 --> 0:58:10.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's something. But people for years and years and

0:58:10.440 --> 0:58:13.480
<v Speaker 3>years would like put on lipstick and leave lipstick kisses

0:58:14.040 --> 0:58:16.040
<v Speaker 3>on the grave and it was just really lovely. And

0:58:16.080 --> 0:58:18.000
<v Speaker 3>I think a few years ago they finally like put

0:58:18.000 --> 0:58:20.400
<v Speaker 3>a horrible plastic barrier all around it.

0:58:20.600 --> 0:58:22.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which I think people still kiss.

0:58:22.840 --> 0:58:25.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you got to, yeah, because he would just love that.

0:58:25.920 --> 0:58:28.880
<v Speaker 3>They'll kiss Oscar Wilde's grave if you can jump the barrier.

0:58:32.280 --> 0:58:32.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:58:32.600 --> 0:58:33.320
<v Speaker 5>No. Oh.

0:58:33.320 --> 0:58:37.880
<v Speaker 2>And then the person Robbie was the person who got

0:58:37.920 --> 0:58:40.480
<v Speaker 2>the funeral arrangements and stuff in order, and I think

0:58:40.560 --> 0:58:42.560
<v Speaker 2>was behind the At first, I think he was. It

0:58:42.600 --> 0:58:44.560
<v Speaker 2>was a very poor grave, and then eventually enough money

0:58:44.560 --> 0:58:47.400
<v Speaker 2>and enough people came together for it, like eventually people

0:58:47.440 --> 0:58:49.120
<v Speaker 2>stop being so mad at him or whatever, you know.

0:58:50.360 --> 0:58:52.560
<v Speaker 2>But he had it a little like there's like a

0:58:52.640 --> 0:58:56.800
<v Speaker 2>slot in it for his own ashes, and so he

0:58:56.840 --> 0:59:01.200
<v Speaker 2>had his ashes put in Oscar wild scra So.

0:59:01.120 --> 0:59:05.920
<v Speaker 3>It was Oscar, Robbie and Bosie.

0:59:06.560 --> 0:59:11.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so Bosie. They actually did reconnect after they reconnected. Really,

0:59:11.480 --> 0:59:14.080
<v Speaker 2>everyone's like, please, don't fucking meet up with Bosie, and

0:59:14.120 --> 0:59:14.960
<v Speaker 2>they like meet up.

0:59:15.400 --> 0:59:17.600
<v Speaker 3>We know that friend of ours. We're like, don't go

0:59:17.960 --> 0:59:19.040
<v Speaker 3>yeah and see them.

0:59:19.480 --> 0:59:22.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they actually did meet up again a little bit,

0:59:22.240 --> 0:59:24.880
<v Speaker 2>but they they went their separate ways.

0:59:24.920 --> 0:59:27.080
<v Speaker 3>Like, rob are they not get buried by each other?

0:59:28.440 --> 0:59:30.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh? Is he buried by them?

0:59:30.080 --> 0:59:30.160
<v Speaker 5>No?

0:59:30.240 --> 0:59:32.320
<v Speaker 3>I thought you who who was buried next to?

0:59:33.160 --> 0:59:37.400
<v Speaker 2>So Robbie Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, Robbie has got the

0:59:37.440 --> 0:59:39.640
<v Speaker 2>cremation there. Yeah no, I think I did say buried

0:59:39.640 --> 0:59:43.480
<v Speaker 2>next to earlier and that's not technically that's still very sweet,

0:59:43.840 --> 0:59:46.720
<v Speaker 2>yeah no, And I love it too because it's like, well,

0:59:46.760 --> 0:59:48.840
<v Speaker 2>these are the people that we come from, Like Dandy's

0:59:50.080 --> 0:59:55.480
<v Speaker 2>are stronger than we like like thinking about like I

0:59:55.520 --> 0:59:59.880
<v Speaker 2>mean like queen culture, right is like people who have

1:00:00.040 --> 1:00:02.320
<v Speaker 2>hard life. I love the idea that someone sees like

1:00:03.120 --> 1:00:05.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm making air quotes here an audience can't see, but

1:00:05.240 --> 1:00:07.360
<v Speaker 2>like a man walking down the street dressed like a

1:00:07.400 --> 1:00:12.760
<v Speaker 2>woman and thinks there's someone who's afraid, you know, yeah,

1:00:12.800 --> 1:00:20.400
<v Speaker 2>like seriously, we come from stern stuff. Yeah, yeah, and

1:00:20.440 --> 1:00:24.240
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't mean we still can't be beautiful and soft

1:00:24.320 --> 1:00:27.520
<v Speaker 2>and plant flowers everywhere and be limp wristed and lounge

1:00:27.560 --> 1:00:31.040
<v Speaker 2>around on Shay's lounges. It's just sometimes you have to

1:00:31.040 --> 1:00:33.040
<v Speaker 2>beat up four men at once and then rob them

1:00:33.040 --> 1:00:34.080
<v Speaker 2>for their liquor.

1:00:34.240 --> 1:00:37.560
<v Speaker 3>And slap the shit out of the school bully, you know.

1:00:38.280 --> 1:00:43.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, all right, well, thank you so much for being

1:00:43.200 --> 1:00:45.720
<v Speaker 2>the guest. If people want to hear more of what

1:00:45.760 --> 1:00:48.280
<v Speaker 2>you have to say, where can they do that?

1:00:49.200 --> 1:00:49.280
<v Speaker 5>Uh?

1:00:49.400 --> 1:00:53.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you can find my podcast, American Hysteria pretty much

1:00:53.520 --> 1:00:57.040
<v Speaker 3>anywhere that you listen to podcasts, and you can find

1:00:57.040 --> 1:00:59.919
<v Speaker 3>me on social media at American Hysteria podcast too.

1:01:00.840 --> 1:01:05.520
<v Speaker 2>Hell yeah, yeah, I'll plug. It's been a while at

1:01:05.520 --> 1:01:08.080
<v Speaker 2>this point, but I finally finished Raw Dog by Jamie

1:01:08.160 --> 1:01:10.640
<v Speaker 2>Loftus and it's real good. I listened to the audio.

1:01:10.720 --> 1:01:15.040
<v Speaker 2>Looks great and good, and I love having conversations where

1:01:15.960 --> 1:01:19.440
<v Speaker 2>speaking of something that gets presented as surface. You know,

1:01:19.560 --> 1:01:21.680
<v Speaker 2>it's a book about the history of hot dogs and

1:01:21.720 --> 1:01:24.440
<v Speaker 2>which hot dogs are best in America. It is also

1:01:25.840 --> 1:01:30.720
<v Speaker 2>a incredibly radical book and has all kinds of value

1:01:30.720 --> 1:01:33.280
<v Speaker 2>besides it, So I will shout out that you should

1:01:33.280 --> 1:01:35.320
<v Speaker 2>go listen to raw Dog by Jamie Loftis or I

1:01:35.320 --> 1:01:36.280
<v Speaker 2>guess read We'll.

1:01:36.120 --> 1:01:39.400
<v Speaker 3>Say too that. If you want more Jamie Loftus hot

1:01:39.440 --> 1:01:42.640
<v Speaker 3>dog content, I told Jamie a bunch of hot dog

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<v Speaker 3>related urban legends on American Hysterio ones and that was

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of fun.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh shit, I'm going to listen to that, Sophie. You

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<v Speaker 2>guys think the plug.

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<v Speaker 1>Listen to all the podcasts I've made with Jamie loft Disk.

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<v Speaker 3>I guess we're just doing a Jamie plug.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah me, the new Oscar Wild Oh oh, if anyone

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<v Speaker 2>I can think of them immediately anyway, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, little bit, that's the podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>See everyone next week.

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<v Speaker 1>Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

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<v Speaker 1>cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on the cool Zone Media,

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<v Speaker 1>visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

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<v Speaker 1>on iHeartRadio, app, app a Podcasts, or wherever you get

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<v Speaker 1>your podcasts.