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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff, which

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Speaker 2: is a podcast that comes out twice a week where

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Speaker 2: I talk about people that I think are cool who

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Speaker 2: did cool stuff? And this week is an archetypical episode

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Speaker 2: where I really like the person I'm talking about and

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Speaker 2: the person I'm talking to, who is Chelsea Weber Smith,

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Speaker 2: host of American Hysteria, which is another podcast.

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Speaker 3: Hey, so happy to be back. I am loving this

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Speaker 3: series so far. It is right up, my allie, So

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Speaker 3: thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: Hell yeah, happy to have you. That sounded fake. That's

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Speaker 2: not true, It's not fake. Yeah. I hate my job. No,

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Speaker 2: I love my job, Tim Hard I know, I know,

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Speaker 2: I'm really bad at So Sophie Hi is the producer.

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Speaker 2: Hi Sophie. Hi, Hi Sophie.

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Speaker 3: You gave me the you gave me your phone voice.

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Speaker 2: Hi Sophie. Hi Sophie.

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Speaker 3: Hardly nailing this.

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Speaker 2: And I guess our producer or whatever or audio engineer

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Speaker 2: is Daniel Danel. High Danel. You have to say hih

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Speaker 2: Daniel too. We can't move forward to Dane Yeah, okay cool.

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Speaker 2: Our theme musical is written forced by a woman, and

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Speaker 2: this is part two and a two parter. So the

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Speaker 2: second half about Oscar fucking Wild, who probably wouldn't have

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Speaker 2: hated having fucking although I guess he had enough middle

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Speaker 2: names he probably didn't need anymore.

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Speaker 3: Remind us, wait, remind us of the whole name again.

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Speaker 2: Oh but it's all the way back up at the

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Speaker 2: top of my script, nor I don't do it. Several

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Speaker 2: of them start with f Yeah, it's like three, there's

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Speaker 2: like finnial clarity, larity. Well, then fuck works Wills. I

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Speaker 2: think Willis or Wills is one of them. Yeah, all right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I totally know this man inside and out. I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: hate to. So we are talking about Oscar Wild, and

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Speaker 2: when we've last left off, he has reached the pinnacle

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Speaker 2: of his well. He's just about to put out like

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Speaker 2: his most important works and he is just like fucking

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Speaker 2: killing it. And he loves his kids, he loves his life.

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Speaker 2: And then it's the early eighteen nineties. Oscar Wild is

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Speaker 2: at the peak of his fame, in his power. He's

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Speaker 2: writing plays and essays that will outlive us all. And

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Speaker 2: then he falls for a guy and has a train

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Speaker 2: wreck of a relationship and it just fucks everything up.

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Speaker 3: Who among us you know?

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Speaker 2: In eighteen ninety one, he meets the man whose father

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Speaker 2: is going to ruin his life. He meets Lord Alfred Douglas.

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Speaker 2: His friends all call him Bozie, which seems to be

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Speaker 2: a childhood nickname from his mother called him. It relates

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Speaker 2: to the word boy. Somehow, I don't understand how English

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Speaker 2: people work. Bozie was a younger man, he was twenty

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Speaker 2: one or something. Oscar's in his mid thirties at this point.

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Speaker 2: They hit it off and they have a love affair

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Speaker 2: full of dramatic breakups and wild goings ons. Alfred demands

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Speaker 2: Oscar spend basically all of his money on him, and

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Speaker 2: Oscar does just whatever fucking Bozy wants Bozy gets, and

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Speaker 2: they just wrecking ball each other's lives, just fuck each

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Speaker 2: other up. It's really bad.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that this is a fuck each other

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Speaker 3: up because they are actually really passionately in love or

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Speaker 3: is it hard to say? So?

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Speaker 2: You know those like relationships where you kind of just

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Speaker 2: fight all the time but the sex is fucking wild,

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Speaker 2: and then whenever you're away, you're like, oh, actually that

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Speaker 2: person wasn't so bad after all, And if he calls

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Speaker 2: your like come running back.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I know that yeahact situation. Okay, all right, it's

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Speaker 4: one of those, got it. The two of them have

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Speaker 4: a particular habit. One of their favorite ways to spend

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Speaker 4: the time is that they go to a very fancy

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Speaker 4: hotel they hire sex workers together and then tip the

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Speaker 4: sex workers lavishly, like they'll send them home with silver

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Speaker 4: cigarette cases and shit like.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, I know, like yeah, I like that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then they get into big blow up fights and

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Speaker 2: then they get back together, and it is really fucking

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Speaker 2: bad for Oscar. It's probably bad for Bosie too, but

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Speaker 2: he's later going to become a massive anti semi although

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Speaker 2: anti Nazi. Okay, Well, Lord Alfred is the man who

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Speaker 2: coined the phrase the Love that dare not speak its name,

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Speaker 2: and he's kind of a want to be intellectual, but

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Speaker 2: he's fucking twenty one. Oscar Wilde was a want to

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Speaker 2: be intellectual when he was twenty one. I was a

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Speaker 2: want to be well, I don't know what I was

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Speaker 2: when I was twenty one.

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Speaker 3: I was definitely I want to be intellectual when I

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Speaker 3: was twenty one, so.

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Speaker 2: I know I was, like I think when I was seventeen,

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Speaker 2: I wasn't want to be intellectual, and when I was

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Speaker 2: like twenty one. I was like, I'm going to die

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Speaker 2: in the revolution. Before I turned twenty four.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't want to be anarchist by then too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and Oscar Wilde is like hiring him to

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Speaker 2: do stuff he sucks at, like translate his plays and

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Speaker 2: things like that, and then like Oscar will do just

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Speaker 2: like go back in and like clean up all the

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Speaker 2: translations and shit.

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Speaker 5: Like.

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Speaker 2: At some point, I think what happened is Oscar wild

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Speaker 2: like writes a play in French and then like the translation.

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Speaker 2: I think it's the one that Alfred does, and so

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Speaker 2: they date and they're wildly in love and fucking each

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Speaker 2: other up and then having amazing, beautiful decad at times. Also,

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Speaker 2: and Alfred's dad is the Marquess of Queensbury. I refuse

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Speaker 2: to learn what a marquess is. Fucking royalty. I don't

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Speaker 2: even know some royalty shit something embarrassing. Yeah, you ever

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Speaker 2: heard of the Queensbury rules of boxing? No, it is

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Speaker 2: the rules that modern boxing is like developed from. Okay

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Speaker 2: because of the Marquess of Queensbury. This particular man, all right,

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Speaker 2: he did not write them down, but he popularized them

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Speaker 2: and he was he was big into boxing and he

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Speaker 2: sets about trying to ruin Oscar Wilde's life because he

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Speaker 2: sees Oscar wild as the corruptor. This groomer was ruined

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Speaker 2: his son because, as we talked about last time, homosexuality

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Speaker 2: and heterosexuality were brand fucking new terms at this time.

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Speaker 2: I really loved it. Actually was like a really mind

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Speaker 2: blowing moment when I realized that heaterosexuality is about one

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Speaker 2: hundred and twenty years old.

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Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 2: Uh, But that doesn't mean that before that everyone was like,

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Speaker 2: do whatever you want, it's all groovy, you know.

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Speaker 3: No, I just meant that there wasn't an identity category.

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Speaker 3: There were like actions that you took, so you like,

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Speaker 3: did gay stuff you weren't necessarily gay stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yourself, yeah, And if you were, it was like words

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Speaker 2: like pervert and things like that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And as best as I can tell the way that

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Speaker 2: Oscar wild in this particular moral panic about homosexuality, gay

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Speaker 2: men are seen as like vampires. They are corruptors that

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Speaker 2: go around and ruin the young and turn them into

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Speaker 2: corruptors themselves, pretty much exactly what people say about like

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Speaker 2: trans women. Now. Yeah, so, mister Queensbury, I refuse to

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Speaker 2: call him marquess every single time, and I think he

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Speaker 2: would be annoyed if I called him mister, and I

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Speaker 2: don't like him, so I'm gonna call him mister. Stick

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Speaker 2: it to him. Yeah, take that man who's been dead

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Speaker 2: since before my great grandfather was born, before my grandfather

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Speaker 2: was born. So he sets about to ruin Oscar Wilde's

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Speaker 2: reputation in life to save his son from becoming a

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Speaker 2: vampire or whatever. But the first couple times they meet,

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Speaker 2: like they'll be like, like Bozi and Oscar will be

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Speaker 2: at a restaurant together, and like Dad will just happen

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Speaker 2: to be there because like all the rich people hang

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Speaker 2: out to rich people shit, you know, and he'll like

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Speaker 2: come over. And Oscar Wilde is so fucking charming that

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Speaker 2: he successfully charms his twenty one year old boyfriend's dad

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Speaker 2: multiple times. And so it's like Dad will like storm

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Speaker 2: over and like sit down, and Oscar I'll be like, man,

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Speaker 2: I love fishing. I hear you like fishing. Let's talk

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Speaker 2: about fishing.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, this is what I aspire to be for.

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Speaker 3: When I meet my partners, like homophobic family members, it's

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Speaker 3: like I will do it. I will charm you into

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Speaker 3: this and do excitting this.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and it's like every single time, and then

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Speaker 2: he like leaves it in my head. He's like, oh wait,

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Speaker 2: I'm supposed to be mad.

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Speaker 3: That vampire.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she was this charming, smile, handsome abs. So finally

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Speaker 2: mister boxing Man shows up at Oscar's house and is like,

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Speaker 2: next time I see you and my son together, i'ma

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Speaker 2: fuck you up. I think he says, I will thrash you,

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Speaker 2: which is nice eighteen nineties for ima fuck you up,

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Speaker 2: to which Oscar replies because he is fucking witty and quotable.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what the Queensbury rules are, but the

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Speaker 2: Oscar Wild rule is to shoot on site.

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Speaker 3: Oh wow.

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Speaker 2: So he's like, hey, you want to come at me,

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Speaker 2: I'll fucking kill you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I think Bosey Lord Alfred is egging Wild on

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Speaker 2: because Lord Alfred hates his fucking dad. And then one day,

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Speaker 2: Lord Alfred he shows up at the rich people London

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Speaker 2: club that Wild hangs out at. It was like referred

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Speaker 2: to as like showed up at his club and I

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Speaker 2: was like, dear Google, did Oscar Wild own a club?

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Speaker 2: And then it's like no, it's just like a weird

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Speaker 2: rich British people thing where you have like your gentleman's club.

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Speaker 2: Actually this particular one accepted men and women, but it's

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Speaker 2: like your weird rich people club.

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Speaker 3: And for a second, I was thinking of Oscar Wild,

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Speaker 3: like Lindsay lohand in that one video when she owned

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Speaker 3: that club in Mikono's doing that really.

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Speaker 5: Really funny.

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Speaker 3: It's pretty good, thank you.

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Speaker 2: So I would I would love to go to Oscar

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Speaker 2: Wild's club or probably this club that I don't know

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Speaker 2: anything about.

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Speaker 3: Lindsay Lohan's club and Mikinos became abandoned because she only

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Speaker 3: lost interest or something, and I always just dreamed of

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Speaker 3: going to that.

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Speaker 5: Hell the TV show on her club in Mikinos not MTV,

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Speaker 5: and there was a phase where it was the best

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Speaker 5: worst show on television. Yeah, it don't songs for like

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Speaker 5: six weeks because that's when she lost interest.

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Speaker 3: But she had a fantastic fake accent.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Well, I know a lot more about pop

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Speaker 2: stars in eighteen nineties London, and.

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Speaker 3: I do, so why we're bringing it in, We're making

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Speaker 3: it modern. I know.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate that. Sometimes I like become conscious of the

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Speaker 2: fact that I like know more about like even like

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Speaker 2: political shit, of the nineteen tens in Ireland than I

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Speaker 2: do about. Like now, that teens to me directly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I do understand that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so Oscar wild as a club, but not as

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Speaker 2: cool as Oscar well owning a club, which I would

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Speaker 2: absolutely have gone to. And I think if he had lasted,

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Speaker 2: none of this had gone down. I could see this

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Speaker 2: man owning a club.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And he leaves a calling card, which is another rich

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Speaker 2: people thing, and it says for Oscar Wilde posing somdamite

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Speaker 2: because among his many boxing talents does not include a

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Speaker 2: talent for spelling or comprehensible handwriting. Okay, is spell it's

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Speaker 2: sodomite spelled wrong. And Oscar Wilde is like, I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: sue this man for libel wow. And his friends are like,

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Speaker 2: but you're a sodomite. You're like, and he will go

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Speaker 2: to jail unless he can prove you are a sodomite,

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Speaker 2: which he can do because you're a sodomite.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And his other friends are like, hey, Paris is lovely.

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Speaker 2: Would you like to go to Paris.

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Speaker 3: Let's just go to Paris and have a nice time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And he's like nope, because if I let this

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Speaker 2: stand it will ruin my reputation. I am suing this

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Speaker 2: man for libel. My favorite history arguing about I'm less

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Speaker 2: interested in like did he fuck so? And so that's fine?

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Speaker 2: Why the fuck did he do? This? Is my favorite

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Speaker 2: history arguing about of this whole thing. Yeah, so Queensberry

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Speaker 2: now has to proven court that Oscar Wild is a

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Speaker 2: sodomite and it's a criminal triald, criminal liable. Queensberry is arrested,

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Speaker 2: but the trial never becomes about Queensberry. I think Oscar

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Speaker 2: wild sees it like, oh, I'm going to have the power.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be the prosecutor. I'm going to stand up,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to fight. You know, it is a trial

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Speaker 2: about Oscar wild Several times Oscar wild has to be like, hey,

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Speaker 2: I'm the I'm the prosecutor, not the defend Yeah wow,

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Speaker 2: and people are like fuck you you homo. Yeah you know.

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Speaker 2: Like soon enough, Queensburg is found not guilty and Oscar

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Speaker 2: Wilde gets put on trial instead for gross indecency aka

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Speaker 2: touch and pens.

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Speaker 3: So he's the after the trial because of this publicity,

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Speaker 3: he gets charged with a separate crime.

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Speaker 2: Because of all the evidence that came out in the

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Speaker 2: course of the trial.

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Speaker 3: Oh gosh, Oscar, you didn't have to do that.

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Speaker 2: No, he did not have to do it. These three

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Speaker 2: trials is three trials of fucking Oscar Wild. They are

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Speaker 2: a big fucking deal. Yeah that It is a big

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Speaker 2: deal in history because Oscar Wild was not the first

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Speaker 2: nor the last celebrity to go on trial for gay sex.

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Speaker 2: But it is coming at a time of public moral

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Speaker 2: panic around, you know, the sodomites in our mist mist

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Speaker 2: or whatever, and Oscar Wild is like one of them

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Speaker 2: most famous people around. It also comes at a time

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Speaker 2: when there's two other big scary things going on in England,

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Speaker 2: Irish nationalists and anarchists. And your boy is a gay

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Speaker 2: Irish anarchist.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, And what year are we in?

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Speaker 2: This is eighteen ninety five, he goes on twenty five.

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Speaker 3: Okay, great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to take a detour really quick to

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Speaker 2: talk about Irish independence and British anarchists because as an

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Speaker 2: angle I haven't seen too many people cover and it's

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Speaker 2: about the trial, and I think it's really interesting. During

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Speaker 2: the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties, British anarchists were primarily

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Speaker 2: focused on anti colonialism. In particular, they were focused on

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Speaker 2: freeing the colony next door Ireland. Anarchists across the world

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Speaker 2: were starting to turn their attention to anti colonialism everywhere,

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Speaker 2: but it's particularly the case in Britain, which makes some sense.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: They also weren't trying to tell the Irish rebels what

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Speaker 2: to do. They weren't like, hey, you all got to

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Speaker 2: be anarchists and do whoever anarchy. Instead, they actually looked

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Speaker 2: to the Irish rebels for inspiration and remained in dialogue

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Speaker 2: with movements around the world. It's actually they actually did

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Speaker 2: better at this than I expected them to to be.

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Speaker 5: Frick.

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Speaker 3: They're kind of supporting whatever the Irish nationalists needed versus.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, And I don't know whether they were like

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Speaker 2: sending arms or not sure, right, but I do know

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Speaker 2: that they were some of the only people in England

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Speaker 2: publishing things that were like we support the following like

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Speaker 2: Irish nationalists crime that had nothing to do with anarchism

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Speaker 2: as a cause. It was just anti colonial.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and ideological support yeah okay, yeah, and like literally

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Speaker 4: even just being able to get news about it that

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Speaker 4: they were like constantly getting repressed for.

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Speaker 2: This is not a big free speech time, you know, right,

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Speaker 2: And in Britain anarchists were also like, hey, fellow Brits,

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Speaker 2: you know that whatever repressive shit they do to the Irish,

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Speaker 2: they'll eventually do here, right, and considering the the English

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Speaker 2: later invent rubber bullets to use on the Irish, like,

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Speaker 2: oh shit, that's like eighty years later. But yeah, but

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Speaker 2: this is exactly what happens. The repressive apparatus that was

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Speaker 2: used against the Irish was then used domestically, and specifically,

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Speaker 2: the spying apparatus was used domestically. Okay, and so we're

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Speaker 2: gonna talk about the Phoenix part killings as a sort

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Speaker 2: of cool people detour just to talk. No one's been

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Speaker 2: stabbed so far as this episode. You know, yeah, some

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Speaker 2: people are going to get stabbed and shot now, and

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Speaker 2: some of them will deserve it. Irish Rebellion was about

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Speaker 2: Irish independence, but it was specifically against landlordism as well.

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Speaker 2: There have been a potato genocide in the eighteen forties

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Speaker 2: where England had starved Ireland during period of potato blight,

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Speaker 2: but shit had not gotten better by the eighteen eighties

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Speaker 2: and so like economically, and so you have this next

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Speaker 2: generation who are like, hey, how come we're all tenant

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Speaker 2: farmers instead of owning our land, and we're one bad

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Speaker 2: harvest away from death. And also we keep getting evicted,

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Speaker 2: so we're actually not even one bad harvest away from death.

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Speaker 2: Were just dead.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: This leads to the Land War of eighteen seventy nine

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Speaker 2: to eighteen eighty two, which is a whole fucking war

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Speaker 2: against landlords, and I just want to sit on that

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Speaker 2: pleasant thought for a moment. Although in this particular war

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Speaker 2: against the landlords, the landlords did come out on top.

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Speaker 2: Britain by eighteen eighty one was like, all right, fuck y'all,

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Speaker 2: Irish motherfuckers, no more trial by jury and Ireland we

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Speaker 2: are fucking in charge, not you fuck off. They arrested

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Speaker 2: nine hundred anti landlord activists and then the Irish were like,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's like a couple of guys responsible for that.

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Speaker 2: There's like, well, to quote the great folk singer Utah Phillips,

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Speaker 2: the earth is not dying, it is being killed, and

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Speaker 2: those who are killing it have names and addresses. The

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Speaker 2: Irish were like, well, it's I can point to those people.

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Speaker 2: That's the guy. One group that came out of this

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Speaker 2: land War was called the Irish National Invincibles or just

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Speaker 2: the Invincibles, which is a fucking cool name. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: they are a splinter from the Irish Republican Brotherhood and

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Speaker 2: they were like, what if we just stab the aforementioned

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Speaker 2: responsible men to death in a public park. Surely that's

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Speaker 2: a thing within our power. And they try a couple

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Speaker 2: of times, but they keep failing. But like the little

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Speaker 2: engine that could, they just kept right at it until

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Speaker 2: one day they succeeded. Or to quote the later IRA

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Speaker 2: talking about how they the later IRA kept trying to

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Speaker 2: blow up Margaret Thatcher and they said, you have to

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Speaker 2: get lucky every time. We only have to get lucky once. Wow. Wow. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And I think it was I think they're specifically mad

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Speaker 2: that Margaret Thatcher was giving Margaret's a bad name.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, primary problem, her greatest sin.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So one day in Phoenix Park, seven of these Invincibles

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Speaker 2: surround the Permanent Undersecretary Thomas Henry Burke and the new

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Speaker 2: Chief Secretary, Lord Frederick Cavendish, the latter of whom had

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Speaker 2: literally just arrived in Dublin to be in charge of

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Speaker 2: repressing the colony. They actually didn't even recognize him. I

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Speaker 2: think they just were killing the permanent under Secretary and

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Speaker 2: then like you know, found this other guy that needed

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Speaker 2: to get stab into and they killed them in Phoenix Park.

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Speaker 2: And unlike the park name, those two did not rise

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Speaker 2: from the ashes. Ah, thank you, thank you. The weapons

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Speaker 2: have been delivered by a seven month pregnant Irish nationalist

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Speaker 2: named Mary Anne Byrne, who ran weapons for the Resistance

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Speaker 2: under her skirts, and the getaway driver. The getaway driver

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Speaker 2: was named and I am not making this up Skin

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Speaker 2: the Goat.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Wow, all one word hyphenated.

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Speaker 3: I'd go to a party at their house. I don't

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Speaker 3: think they are a couple, but I'm pretending male.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, there's Mary and skin the Goat. He earned

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Speaker 2: that name because one time he killed and skinned a

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Speaker 2: goat and then wore the goat skin on his lap

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Speaker 2: while driving a cab.

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Speaker 3: Well, there you go. Yeah, very literal nicknames back then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. So anyway, so the Invincibles killed some

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Speaker 2: men responsible for the subjugation of Ireland. One of the

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Speaker 2: assassins was this guy named James Carey, probably no relation

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Speaker 2: to the actor of the same name, and he got

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Speaker 2: caught and he turned snitch, and his snitching saw five

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Speaker 2: of his associates hanged and This led to a whole

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Speaker 2: chain of events. The Crown was like, all right, Jim Carrey,

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Speaker 2: you got to eventually make the mask, so we got

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Speaker 2: to get you away from here under a fake name.

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Speaker 2: Get you to South Africa. You'll be safe there. But

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Speaker 2: there's other people on the boat, and one of the

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Speaker 2: other people on the boat is just he's not there

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Speaker 2: to do anything. I mean, was there to go to

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Speaker 2: South Africa. But he is a forty eight year old

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Speaker 2: Irish bricklayer named Patrick O'Donnell. And Patrick O'Donnell had been

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Speaker 2: hanging out in cold mining, Pennsylvania with his Molly McGuire cousins.

389
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Speaker 2: See are two parter on the Molly McGuire's the people

390
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Speaker 2: who like to kill landlords the middle the night. They

391
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Speaker 2: believed in very direct solutions to certain types of problems.

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Speaker 2: So Patrick discovered James's true identity while they're on the

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Speaker 2: ship together. Three bullets later, James Carey is dead. Patrick

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Speaker 2: O'Donnell's stands trial. He is sentenced to death. The judge

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Speaker 2: refused to let him speak after the sentencing, so instead

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Speaker 2: he shouted, He shouted three cheers for Old Ireland, Goodbye

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Speaker 2: United States, to hell with the British and the British Crown. Nice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, at least he got one in there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I know. He was executed and was

400
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Speaker 2: and is considered a martyr to Irish freedom. You know,

401
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Speaker 2: a man who made a decision while he was on

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Speaker 2: a boat.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, bricklayer.

404
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Speaker 5: Job.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. What's this got to do with Oscar Wilde.

406
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Speaker 2: It has two things to do with Oscar Wilde. When

407
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 2: Oscar was on his tour of the US, he spoke

408
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 2: unabashedly about how those killings, the Phoenix Park killings were

409
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Speaker 2: quote the fruit of seven centuries of injustice, and his

410
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 2: irishness is often erased, but he was his mother's son.

411
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Speaker 2: He also specifically talked about how the colonization of Ireland

412
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Speaker 2: was cutting into the Irish ability to be artists. The

413
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Speaker 2: other connection is that the English anarchist press was supporting

414
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Speaker 2: the Invincibles and Irish nationalism generally, and soon enough, you know,

415
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Speaker 2: a decade or so later, they're supporting Oscar wild Because

416
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Speaker 2: not a lot of people supported Oscar wild while he

417
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Speaker 2: was on trial, but the anarchist press did. And as

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Speaker 2: another weird side note about the anarchist press in England

419
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Speaker 2: at the time, there's this paper called The Torch, and

420
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Speaker 2: it was run by two teenaged anarchist sisters named Helen

421
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Speaker 2: and Olivia Rosetti. They started it when they were thirteen

422
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Speaker 2: and sixteen. And it's like one of the papers of

423
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Speaker 2: like wide circulation that's like covering shit from all over

424
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Speaker 2: the world. It's like they're not writing all the pieces.

425
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Speaker 2: They're like getting all of these people who write all

426
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Speaker 2: these pieces and stuff.

427
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Speaker 3: You know, Wow, that's so cool.

428
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Speaker 2: And then here's where I guess it's really annoying. Another

429
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Speaker 2: example of the things that Margaret doesn't like to talk

430
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 2: about but has to all the time. Later, these two

431
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 2: girls become fascists because one of the things I hate

432
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Speaker 2: talking about is that the fascist movement came out of

433
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Speaker 2: the revolutionary politics of the left combined with the conservatism

434
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Speaker 2: and authoritarianism of the right. It was leftist methodology applied

435
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 2: to right wing values. Yeah, there are leftist roots to

436
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 2: a lot of fascism, and a lot of leftists became

437
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Speaker 2: early fascists.

438
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 3: Not now to talk about it, though, Yeah you got

439
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 3: to talk about it.

440
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 2: Yeah important. It's not fun too, and oh.

441
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 3: It's not, but you gotta you know, it's you have

442
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 3: to so you don't repeat the past.

443
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, totally, And it's just like annoying because then

444
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 2: people will be like, oh, national socialism, that means it's leftist,

445
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 2: and you're like, no, it's a right wing movement, and

446
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 2: you're like but also.

447
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, I do know.

448
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 2: So for now, they are running an anarchist press, and

449
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 2: they and other anarchist presses are supporting Irish independence, and

450
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 2: a bunch of their writers are supporting Oscar Wilde. Let's

451
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:36,360
Speaker 2: go back to the trial. Well, actually, before we talk

452
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 2: about the trial, have you ever considered that there's a

453
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 2: gaping hole in your life, a hole that you feel

454
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 2: like could be filled but not in a quote Greek way,

455
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 2: but through a consumer way. Do you ever think about that?

456
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 2: I know I do, so it keeps me up at night.

457
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 2: Here's these ads that will fill you're whole. Nope, I

458
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 2: don't like. Go Okay, here they go and we're back. So,

459
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 2: like I was saying, the trial is three trials. First

460
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 2: there is Wild trying to prosecute boxing rules man, and

461
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 2: then the Crown trying to prosecute Wild. And that first

462
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 2: attempt to prosecute Wild doesn't work. There's a hung Jurney

463
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 2: and so the crown is like, well, while we got

464
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 2: you here, why don't we just put you on trial

465
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 2: for the same thing again? And he was like, I mean,

466
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 2: I'd probably rather you didn't. And they're like, well, are

467
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 2: you gonna run in France? And he's like no, and

468
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: they're like why not and he's like, I don't know.

469
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 2: And historians are going to argue about it later. It's

470
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 2: eighteen ninety five. Private investigators during the very first trial,

471
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 2: they dig up a fuck ton of the sex workers

472
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 2: that he had slept with, and then the crown blackmails

473
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: them into testifying against Oscar Wild. I think pretty much

474
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 2: they're like, hey, we're going to prosecute you unless you test. Yeah,

475
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: there's also some implication that they might have been tortured,

476
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 2: and a bunch of them testify, and I think, like,

477
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 2: I think Oscar World's like a little bit surprised Pikachu

478
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 2: face about this. Yeah, Like, I think he just thinks

479
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 2: he's going to get away with it. You know, his

480
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 2: own books and plays are used as evidence against him

481
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 2: in these trials. Everyone is trying to tease out every

482
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 2: gay line from every one of his plays, and Wild's

483
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: defense it changes tone here and there by and large

484
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 2: he's not like being gay's fine, fuck you. By and large,

485
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 2: he's like, I didn't do it. Can't say I did

486
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 2: it because I didn't do it, which is I don't

487
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 2: blame whatever. I'm a big tell the truth person. When

488
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 2: someone's not threatening to lock you into a cage, you know.

489
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, you don't need to tell the truth to the courts,

490
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 3: yea necessarily like show honor.

491
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't lie to someone that you wouldn't punch. That's

492
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: the it's my general go to.

493
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 3: It's good rule with them.

494
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, and partially he gets caught up in a

495
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 2: lot of his own lying about this because he can't

496
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 2: help being super witty. They're like, hey, did you kiss

497
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: this guy? And Oscar Wild's like, well I would, but

498
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: he's ugly, like I would never kiss a man like that,

499
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 2: and they're like, so you'd kiss a man He's like,

500
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 2: ah shit, got me again, man. And the whole time

501
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 2: between each of the trials, before the first one, before

502
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: the second one, and before the third one, his friends

503
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: are like, go the fuck to France. Why the fuck

504
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 2: aren't you in France. In fact, we all left for

505
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 2: France because we're all gay. And there's now this moral

506
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 2: panic around you, and we don't want to testify you

507
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 2: against you, and we don't want to go to prison,

508
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,719
Speaker 2: So come the fuck to France. Yeah, his mother is

509
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: like stay and fight.

510
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 3: Wow.

511
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: And I don't know whether it's a mama's boy thing.

512
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: I don't know what it is, but you know, there's

513
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 2: all so like I get the feeling that he he

514
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 2: kind of just felt like his whole life was falling apart.

515
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 2: Like I feel like it was like almost kind of

516
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 2: a nihilistic move and he'd just been in this like

517
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: long shitty relationship and his life was kind of losing

518
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: the plot and he was kind of in spiraling out

519
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 2: of control.

520
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 3: Do we know if his mom was accepting of him

521
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 3: being gay.

522
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 2: I don't know.

523
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 3: His mom seems so, I guess, unless she was saying, like,

524
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 3: defend yourself against these accusations, because there's like.

525
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 2: Two different things that could be I know, Yeah, I

526
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: don't know. My guess is supporting mom based on everything

527
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: I read about the relationship, but I don't know.

528
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 3: And her politics too.

529
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's a lot of you know, it's like

530
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: one of these things where it's like, well we'll talk

531
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 2: about it. Sure. So he defends himself, and he actually

532
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 2: ends up defending obliquely homosexuality and specifically generation gap relationships

533
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: that are homosexual. They ask him what the love that

534
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: dare not speak its name is, and he basically is like, hey,

535
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 2: all throughout history, older men have loved younger men. It's

536
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 2: a Greek tradition, and everything's fine. But it's like the

537
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 2: way he phrases it, you could kind of talk about

538
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 2: same sexual relationships if you didn't talk about fucking. For

539
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 2: a lot of the Victorian era and a lot of

540
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 2: the historically close friends were literally just historically close friends,

541
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 2: and like you could have men could talk about loving

542
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 2: each other because since you hadn't created homosexuality as a

543
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 2: vice and a you know whatever, like there wasn't like

544
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 2: a fear of like you know, you look at all

545
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 2: the old photos and like men are like hugging and like.

546
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 3: Holding hands and like each other's laps and stuff.

547
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're like, oh, it means they were all gay,

548
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: and that's like sometimes true, but it's also just like

549
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: they weren't afraid of being called gay all the time,

550
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 2: so they just exactly enjoyed affection with each other because

551
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: that's normal and human. Yeah, And so it's possible that

552
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 2: when he was defending the Love that not dare not

553
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 2: speak its name, he was like still not being like,

554
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 2: you know, and I touched his buttole my finger or whatever.

555
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 2: The first trial ended with the hung jury and he

556
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 2: was retried. An Anglican priest who was a Christian socialist

557
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: put up a fuck ton of money to get wild

558
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 2: out on bail between the trials, and he still wouldn't flee.

559
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 2: And it's possible this time he just didn't want to

560
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 2: fuck over that priest.

561
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 5: Yeah.

562
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, he went back to court. The judge fucking hated him,

563
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 2: said it was quote the worst case he'd ever tried,

564
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 2: because he like, was you know, seducing and ruining these

565
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 2: like young men or whatever, you know. Yeah, yeah, and

566
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 2: he was convicted of gross indecency. He was sentenced to

567
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 2: two years of hard labor. At the end, Oscar Wilde

568
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: said simply, and I may I say nothing, my lord,

569
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 2: and the judge didn't let him speak, and the crowd

570
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 2: jeered him.

571
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 3: Yes.

572
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 2: I've read a couple academics discussing the trial wasn't it

573
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 2: was about homosexuality, but it was also about the whole

574
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 2: gay Irish radical thing, right, because a lot of the

575
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 2: press treated it that way. At this time, papers were

576
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 2: excited to see someone attacked for attacking conventional morality. And

577
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 2: even this esthetic movement idea of art for art's sake

578
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: is attacking conventional morarality by refusing to make art that

579
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 2: specifically upholds traditional morality.

580
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

581
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

582
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: A modern Irish author, Diglon o'donhall wrote, quote, Unlike anarchist

583
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 2: assassins and bombers, who would always be outsiders, Wild was

584
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 2: embedded within the artistic and social elite. His position as

585
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 2: a revolutionary who enjoyed popular celebrity meant that he posed

586
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 2: a greater threat to the establishment by criticizing it from within,

587
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 2: and his enemies in the mainstream press were patiently waiting

588
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: for an opportunity to punish him for his public success.

589
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 3: Yeah that makes sense.

590
00:31:55,160 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And another piece around this, there's this Irish cop

591
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 2: in London who's anti Irish or anti Irish independence. His

592
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 2: name is Chief Inspector John Sweeney. He was an Irish

593
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 2: anti Fenian who spent a long ass time spying on

594
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: the Fenians in London, the Irish revolutionaries, and then he

595
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 2: moved over to spying on the anarchists and so the whole,

596
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 2: like the police state, will come to affect us too.

597
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 5: Write.

598
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 2: You know, in the eighteen nineties, British anarchists were largely writing,

599
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: not blowing things up. A lot of the continental anarchists

600
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 2: are in a like King killing stage, but not the

601
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 2: British anarchists so much so. His primary concern was how

602
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 2: to censor anarchists speech and how to shut down newspapers

603
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 2: and stop ideas from circulating. This does not feel coincidental. No,

604
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: as soon as Oscar Wilde is on trial, before he's convicted,

605
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 2: his name is stripped off the marquees at the theaters

606
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 2: running his plays, and soon enough the plays themselves are stopped.

607
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 2: The public like turns on him on a dot. The

608
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 2: press calls him the a laureate of corruption. Wow, everyone

609
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 2: gets on name. I know, I know, I've all right

610
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 2: with that. Like, yeah, never.

611
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 3: Really was too. If he weren't, if he wasn't like

612
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 3: stuck in jail, he might enjoyed it. Yeah.

613
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: He has this quote when he's a younger that I

614
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 2: don't have in Frontman and put in the script where

615
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: he's like, I'm going to be famous or you know, notorious.

616
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 2: Whatever the man accomplished both, he did it, and yeah,

617
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 2: everyone's on board with stopping this vamporism from corrupting the world.

618
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 2: I'm the one making the specific vamporism comparison, but that

619
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 2: is the corruptor of youth, the groomer, the you know.

620
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, the like hypnotizing force.

621
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, spoiler alert. If gay sex tikes you gay, it's

622
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 2: because you like it.

623
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 3: Anita Bryant did the vampire metaphor for gay men in

624
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 3: the seventies.

625
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: Oh shit, yeah, should look at that up.

626
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 3: She said that because gay men and eat sperm, they're

627
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 3: eating life itself or something like that, and so their vampires.

628
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 2: Oh this is someone who meant it negatively.

629
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I once. Yeah, she was like

630
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 3: the Orange Juice spokeswoman who kind of single handedly started

631
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 3: the anti gay movement in the seventies.

632
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm pretty like into gayness's monstrosity. Like yeah, sure,

633
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 2: So I'm like I have a vampire or whatever. You know.

634
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, lots of gays, if not most enjoy a good

635
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 3: horror movie.

636
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:37,439
Speaker 2: So I am. And so he's on trial. Most people

637
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: are turning their backs on him. He had spoken up

638
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 2: for the anarchists eight years prior, and the anarchists spoke

639
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 2: up for him. The broader socialist movement hadn't really grappled

640
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 2: with how they felt about homosexuality at this point, including

641
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: the anarchist movement. They hadn't like just sat down and

642
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: been like, what do we think about this? What's the

643
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,879
Speaker 2: party line? You know, at least not that I've ever

644
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 2: been able to find. I've I've read a lot about

645
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 2: their like grappling with like the woman issue and colonialism

646
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,280
Speaker 2: and things like that, right, but they hadn't like sat

647
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 2: there and thought about homosexuality as a movement. And Oscar

648
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 2: Wilde's trial brought pro homosexuality to the forefront of anarchist politics,

649
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 2: and from there, as best as I can conjecture, it

650
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 2: filtered out to the broader socialist left. At the time,

651
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 2: the broader socialist left despised Oscar wild in this homosexuality. Also,

652
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: they kept being mad at him for not being their

653
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 2: style of socialist. You know, it's possible that if he

654
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 2: had been a you know, Marxist, they the Marxist would

655
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: have been like, we're suddenly fine with gays, you know.

656
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah.

657
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 2: It was the anarchist press that kept his essays and

658
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: plays in print after his fall from grace. I want

659
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 2: to say among because I actually don't specifically know that

660
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 2: no one else did, but I know a lot of

661
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 2: specific examples when the anarchist press did when no one

662
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 2: else would in various situations. It was one of the

663
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: only places you could go to read about the trial

664
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 2: and find things like people saying, hey, what if too

665
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 2: consenting adults can do whatever the fuck they want? What

666
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: the fuck is wrong with you? Even the homophobic anarchists

667
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: writing were like, hey, did you know you can read

668
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 2: portrait of Dorian Gray without like going out and touching

669
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 2: panes with some guy, like just stop censoring shit, what

670
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 2: the fuck is wrong with you?

671
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 3: Yeah?

672
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 2: And I like, I kind of love it when people

673
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 2: who are like a little bit homophobic are like, well,

674
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 2: my values are more important to me than how I

675
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 2: have my own weird biases.

676
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, totally.

677
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 2: But it did not save him, right, There was certainly

678
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 2: not a ton of public outcry to defend him, and

679
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 2: he went off to prison. Two years of hard labor

680
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: is very different than going to prison regular. It's actually

681
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 2: almostly a little bit like going to prison regular in

682
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: the United States now, yeah, right, But like at the time.

683
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 2: It was really really bad. It kills a lot of people,

684
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 2: and it functionally kills him. They functionally gave him a

685
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 2: death sentence. And what won't kill you or give you

686
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 2: a death sentence unless you get the ad for becoming

687
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 2: a jail or, which is a don't. When I say

688
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 2: that we're sponsored by all ads, I mean except the

689
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: one that says scope be it whatever. Here's ads. Everything's

690
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 2: horrible and we're back. And if you're listening to this

691
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: in prison while walking on a treadmill endlessly to grind

692
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 2: wheat into flour, then you might be Oscar wild, because

693
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 2: is that what it was? That's one of the things

694
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 2: he had to do. Now, he had to walk on

695
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 2: a treadmill to grind flower. It took me. Most of

696
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 2: the sources I found just said like, walked on a treadmill,

697
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 2: and I'm like, the fuck for why? Yeah? Yeah, but

698
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: it really is still kind of just for work. Like

699
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 2: he also had to scar his hands permanently to separate

700
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 2: old naval ropes I think soaked in tar pitch or

701
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: whatever into their individual threads. Oh my gosh.

702
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 5: Wow.

703
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 2: In the beginning of his time in prison, he was

704
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 2: only allowed to read the Bible and some old Christian

705
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 2: book called The Pilgrim's Progress. Eventually, a new warden arrived

706
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 2: and he was offered more books, and he read all

707
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: kinds of shit and all kinds of languages, especially read

708
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: a lot of Dante, and he read a lot of

709
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 2: theological texts, including this Catholic convert from Anglicanism named John

710
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 2: Henry Newman, who wrote a bunch about how every religion,

711
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 2: including like Heathen religions, contain truth. They contained revelation.

712
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 3: That's cool.

713
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 2: So he's reading like woke Catholic shit.

714
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,959
Speaker 3: Kind of like mysticism or something like that, Nalism.

715
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's not allowed to write while he's in jail,

716
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 2: except letters, So he writes a fifty five thousand word letter.

717
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 2: It's de bosy, but it's to everyone. It's a short novel. Basically,

718
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 2: he had to write it one page at a time

719
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 2: because as he finished each page, they'd take it away

720
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:16,280
Speaker 2: from him. Sometimes I think people guess, like analysts guess

721
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 2: that he probably had about three pages at a time.

722
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 2: Sometimes because of the way this sentences and are structured

723
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 2: in it, it's a bit of a rambling autobiography as

724
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 2: well as a spiritual Triestas, and later when it's out,

725
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 2: a copy goes to Lord Alfred de Bosi, and a

726
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,879
Speaker 2: copy gets published as De Profundus, which is after five

727
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 2: years after Oscar's death, and Deperfundus is a biblical reference,

728
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 2: and it means from the depths, comes from Psalm one

729
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: point thirty, from the depths, I have cried to you,

730
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 2: oh Lord. So it's basically it's like, hey, I'm in prison, yeah,

731
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,919
Speaker 2: what it means, and it's a religious text in a way,

732
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 2: he realizes. He talks about how he's realized that suffering

733
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 2: is as important to his soul as the hedonism he'd appreciated.

734
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 2: He wrote, quote, I wanted to eat of the fruit

735
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 2: of all the trees in the garden of the world,

736
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 2: and so indeed I went out, and so I lived.

737
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 2: My only mistake was that I confined myself so exclusively

738
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: to the trees of what seemed to me to be

739
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,439
Speaker 2: the sunlit side of the garden, and shunned the other

740
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 2: side for its shadow and its gloom. He also wrote,

741
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 2: there is not a single wretched man in this wretched

742
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 2: place along with me who does not stand in symbolic

743
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 2: relation to the very secret of life. For the secret

744
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 2: of life is suffering. It is what is hidden behind

745
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 2: everything when we begin to live. What is sweet is

746
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,720
Speaker 2: so sweet to us, and what is bitter so bitter

747
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: that we inevitably direct all our desires towards pleasures, and

748
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 2: seek not merely for a month or twain to feed

749
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 2: on honeycomb, but for all our years to taste no

750
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 2: other food, ignorant all the while that we may really

751
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 2: be starving the soul.

752
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, he was a good writer. I know, he

753
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,280
Speaker 3: was a tremendously good writer.

754
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: No Ah. And so he's not saying I shouldn't have

755
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 2: done the joy sex stuff. He's saying everything has this value,

756
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 2: you know.

757
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. Wow. Do you think then that he like did

758
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 3: feel the criticisms that were leveled against him for being

759
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 3: kind of like a frivolous person, or do you think

760
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 3: that like he I'm just interested because that quote is

761
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 3: just like what do you think that he meant exactly

762
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 3: when he was saying that? Like, do you think it

763
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 3: was reflective of his life?

764
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: So I haven't read every I haven't read all the profundus.

765
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 2: I actually read his very long poem immediately after that

766
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 2: is the main thing I read about it. But I

767
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 2: get the impression that he does regret like some of

768
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 2: the ways in which he was frivolous, right, but he

769
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 2: doesn't regret the like core of it. He stays Antinomian.

770
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 2: He stays believing that, you know, you don't have to

771
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 2: ascribe to a specific moral path in order to reach heaven.

772
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 2: Yeah whatever, right. Yeah. So it's like it's it's hard

773
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 2: because it's like there is regret, but then it's like

774
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 2: like a spoiler, he's going to convert to Catholicism on

775
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 2: his deathbed, and so there's like Catholic articles that are

776
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 2: like and then he's sorry about being gay, and I'm like, yeah,

777
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 2: I'm not a no, it just meant something very different

778
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 2: at that time, you know.

779
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 3: And Catholicism just fits so well with his sort of

780
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 3: decadence as well, like image like images, and yeah, it's

781
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 3: just it's it's bloody, it's golden, it's you know, things

782
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 3: he likes velvety.

783
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a quote I Am about Catholicism from way

784
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 2: Younger that's at the end of this script.

785
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

786
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's I think he's like he's like sorry,

787
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 2: he's not sorry, you know. Yeah. Yeah, and prison fucks

788
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,359
Speaker 2: him up. Physically. The food is terrible. Everyone is constantly sick,

789
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 2: like everyone's dye area constantly. He collapsed from exhaustion one

790
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: day and he ruptured his ear drum and this later

791
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 2: kills him. He's transferred to another prison, which is reading jail,

792
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 2: which should be pronounced reading gayel because I'm an American

793
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 2: and I will never get over how the British spell

794
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 2: the word jail?

795
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 3: Is it with a G?

796
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 2: Yeah? Gaol laird?

797
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, all right, yeah?

798
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 2: How did they conquer the world? I don't even notice?

799
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 2: Right in English? And while he's not impressed, And at

800
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 2: one point while he's being transferred, he's underguard on the

801
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: train platform and a crowd forms around him and like

802
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 2: spits on him and jeers him, and this is like

803
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 2: presented as the worst, the lowest time of his prison,

804
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 2: even though obviously the like time and you know whatever,

805
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 2: it sucks, it's bad.

806
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 3: Yeah.

807
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 2: In Reading, he no longer like they don't call him

808
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 2: by his name anymore. He is only C three three.

809
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 2: He is on the third floor of the third cell

810
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 2: of the Sea Ward and his mother dies while he's

811
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 2: in prison. She appeals to be able to see her

812
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 2: son one last time, and this is denied. His wife

813
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 2: changes her last name and moves to Switzerland and takes

814
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 2: their kids with her. He never sees his children again.

815
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 2: He's forced to declare bankruptcy while he's in prison, and

816
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,919
Speaker 2: I believe that they're confiscating his copyrights as well as

817
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 2: his belongings. In eighteen ninety seven, he's released penniless and

818
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 2: he gets the fuck out of England and he does

819
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 2: what he should have done ten fucking years earlier, and

820
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 2: he goes to France. He never goes back to England.

821
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: He spends the last three years of his life in Paris,

822
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 2: living under a pseudonym, Sebastian Melmouth, which is a combination

823
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 2: of Saint Sebastian, the one who likes getting stabbed and stuff.

824
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,359
Speaker 2: The mask is Saint and then Melmoth, the Wanderer from

825
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 2: his uncle's book.

826
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 3: It's pretty cool.

827
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it's a good name. Yeah, it's a

828
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 2: pretty transmasque name. But if anyone's looking for a new

829
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 2: trans mask name.

830
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:01,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go.

831
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 2: It's a fast and Melmouth it's right there for you.

832
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 2: Although I'll do my follow up Oscar Wild as an

833
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:12,399
Speaker 2: egg trans woman episode one day, but yeah, yeah, that's

834
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 2: pure conjecture and or you know. So at this point

835
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 2: he's out of prison. His primary contributions to society are

836
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,240
Speaker 2: to write long letters about the need for penal reform

837
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 2: and to write a poem. One of his most famous

838
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 2: called the Ballad of Reading Jail, or as I like

839
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:36,919
Speaker 2: to say, the Ballad of Reading Gail. It's really good,

840
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 2: it's very long, it's worth reading. It's very like rimy, right.

841
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 3: I think you only ever really wrote poems in rhyme.

842
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, just style at the time.

843
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there wasn't a lot of like lyricism.

844
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 2: Yet I was born in the twentieth century. All poetry,

845
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 2: it should be free for him. I don't understand all

846
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 2: of the writing, but I know it's really good and

847
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 2: it's really interesting. He can't get it published under his name,

848
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 2: right because no one will touch it. But he's really good,

849
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 2: So it gets published under the name C. Three three,

850
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 2: his jail name. Wow, no one in America will touch

851
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 2: it at all until the anarchist press is like, all right,

852
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 2: well we'll publish it, which worked really well for the

853
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 2: anarchist press, and I think they actually were like I

854
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,760
Speaker 2: think they put his name on it. By the seventh

855
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 2: printing in because it keeps selling out and they keep

856
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 2: printing more. It does really well. And it's a moral

857
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 2: panic too, which is funny because it is the most

858
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 2: like Christian socialist thing you'll read. It is a it

859
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 2: makes you sympathize with a criminal. It is about watching

860
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 2: a man get hanged who killed his wife. It is

861
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 2: about a man who is not a good man being killed,

862
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 2: and it makes you hate the prison system. Yeah, this

863
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 2: just really I don't know, I found it very moving. Yeah,

864
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 2: and people are like, ah, it's terrible, it's immoral. It

865
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 2: makes you sympathize with the criminal. And then like some

866
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 2: people were like even like as they were to cry

867
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 2: and it, they were like, it's forcing you to have

868
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 2: really high Christian ethics and like it just broke every Yeah,

869
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 2: it just broke everyone's brains. Yeah. His wife was said

870
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 2: in about like I think five pounds a week, which

871
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 2: does not translate to a lot in modern money, and

872
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 2: that says like allowance basically, and that's what he's living

873
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 2: off of. And then he gets the royalties from that poem.

874
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 2: And he missed his children every day he talked about

875
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 2: and Robert Ross, Robbie Ross, his lifelong friend, joined him

876
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 2: in Paris, or I think was maybe already in Paris honestly,

877
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,959
Speaker 2: but moves in with him, and after a few years,

878
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,439
Speaker 2: Oscar's health declines. His ruptured ear drum gets infected, which

879
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 2: leads to meningitis, which is going to kill him. He

880
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 2: died in Paris on November thirtieth, nineteen hundred, at forty

881
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,280
Speaker 2: six years old. On his deathbed in a rundown hotel,

882
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 2: he converted to Catholicism, and his quote that he had

883
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:00,959
Speaker 2: once said a long time because he tried to convert

884
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 2: Cathosism a long time ago, and his dad was like,

885
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 2: fuck you. You know he had once said, the Catholic Church

886
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 2: is for saints and sinners alone, for respectable people. The

887
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 2: Anglican Church will do. This is not extra enough, like

888
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 2: what you're saying, like like you know, the Catholic Church.

889
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 2: He gets a drink blood and like be amenable, like cooler,

890
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: like carry around skulls.

891
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 3: Who was with him, was like did he have a

892
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 3: priest there with him or something? Or how do we know?

893
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 2: He? Yeah, so Robbie Ross went and got a priest

894
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 2: who came over and he's like in and out of consciousness,

895
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 2: but he's able to indicate the priest is like, all right,

896
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 2: you're doing this, and he like kind of raises his

897
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,959
Speaker 2: hand feebly. Sure, there doesn't seem to be contention around this.

898
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 3: Okay, because it makes me almost think and this is

899
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 3: like such a weird example, but like Ted Bundy converting

900
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,439
Speaker 3: to Christianity at the end and then blaming everything on pornography,

901
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 3: and that was like a manipulating thing, yeah, to like,

902
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 3: you know, support a right wing agenda. So I was

903
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 3: just curious if there was any possibility right that like

904
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 3: this priest had an agenda or something. But sounds like

905
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 3: it's not, like you said, it's not argued about too much.

906
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 2: That's the best guess I have. There are a lot

907
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 2: of people who are like and he was sorry for

908
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 2: being gay, and I'm like, I'm not finding a lot

909
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 2: of evidence I'm sorry for being gay. But it is possible.

910
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 2: It is possible that this is like I might be

911
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 2: reading it the way that I want to, because he

912
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 2: talks about being Antonomian. He you know, to the end

913
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 2: of his days he talks about like I feel like

914
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 2: I get a sense of like, oh, yeah, of course

915
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 2: he ended up Catholic. This is the shitt he's writing

916
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 2: rather than like he fits neatly into the tradcaf assumption

917
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 2: of now you know.

918
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 3: And going to prison too famously makes folks more religious

919
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 3: because you have to have hope in something, and so

920
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 3: it makes sense that maybe he found and he was

921
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 3: also being given almost only religious or theological.

922
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 2: Text that was actually what he was asking for. The

923
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 2: at first, he's stuck with the Bible and the progress.

924
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:02,879
Speaker 2: Although I don't know if they would have brought him

925
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 2: like actually know, because they also did bring him William

926
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 2: Peter Books. Yeah, no, I don't know they would have

927
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 2: given him porn. Yeah, well there's some porn in the Bible, but.

928
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's true, there is, yeah.

929
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, yeah. It's it's interesting to be because it's

930
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 2: like every read of Oscar Wilde like picks one thing

931
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 2: and it's like Oscar Wilde, the Catholic, Oscar wild the irishman,

932
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 2: Oscar wild the anarchist, Oscar wild the meaningless, witty guy,

933
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, and you're like, he can just be

934
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 2: all those things, and they're things that people want to

935
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 2: claim are paradoxical and often can be and are presented

936
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 2: as paradoxical. But for me, it just seems like he

937
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 2: threaded that needle, you know well, and like, who who.

938
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 3: Is not paradoxical? It's so weird to think that, No,

939
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 3: like you can't be a paradoxical person.

940
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally feel like I am. I don't know.

941
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 5: Yeah.

942
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 2: And his last witticism that apparently he used on like

943
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 2: everyone who came to visit him on his deathbed was

944
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 2: this wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death.

945
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 2: Either it goes or I do. It is such a

946
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 2: template for this sassk man. It's just incredible. And Robbie

947
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 2: Ross was with him as he died, as was the

948
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,879
Speaker 2: priest Emma Goldman, I promise you. And Emma Goldman quote

949
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 2: about him, who herself is quite quotable. She said about him,

950
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 2: while society forgives the criminal, it never forgives the dreamer.

951
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 3: Wow. Yeah.

952
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,840
Speaker 2: And one of his sons, Cyril, is killed by a

953
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 2: German sniper in nineteen fifteen in World War One. His

954
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 2: daughter Dorothy took after him most directly. She became a

955
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 2: witty conversationalist and was an out lesbian.

956
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 3: I didn't know that.

957
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 2: That's so nice.

958
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 3: It feels like he gets to live on in some

959
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:51,879
Speaker 3: way in a different time.

960
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And that's one of the stories about Oscar Wild.

961
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 2: There's a thousand stories that can be told. I want

962
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:01,479
Speaker 2: to shout out that. If you want to learn more

963
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:06,439
Speaker 2: specifically about how he related to homosexuality, there's a two

964
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,280
Speaker 2: parter from a few years ago by the podcast Queer's

965
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 2: Fact that Cool is Real worth listening to. Yeah, that's wow.

966
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 2: Oscar Wild the very different than I thought he would

967
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 2: be when I started off reading.

968
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 3: No, I had no idea about probably eighty percent of

969
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:26,479
Speaker 3: what you've still be here today. I just never thought

970
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 3: of Oscar Wild as a political person really in any way,

971
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 3: almost anti political right. So that's and do you think

972
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 3: that there's any like reason that he's been painted that

973
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 3: way and been like almost like it just feels like

974
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,720
Speaker 3: the revolutionary side of him has been like cleaned away

975
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 3: and almost like him because in my mind he was

976
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 3: like a decadent, kind of almost out of touch, yeah,

977
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 3: rich person who happened to be a beautiful writer and

978
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 3: have like, you know, a huge skill with language. But

979
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,439
Speaker 3: I never thought of him as a radical, yeah, really

980
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:00,320
Speaker 3: in any way.

981
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 2: Well, at one point I forgot to ended up in

982
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 2: a script at one point eighteen ninety two, this like

983
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 2: this anarchist poet is having a mental breakdown, I think,

984
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 2: and takes like potshots at the House of Commons, just

985
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 2: like shoots at the wall or whatever. Oscar Wild pays

986
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 2: his bail and writes a letter to him and is like,

987
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,760
Speaker 2: of course I support you, like everything is like everything

988
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 2: but saying comrade doesn't say comrade, but it's like, h

989
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 2: of course I support you. Like us dreamers have to

990
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 2: stick together, you know. I have found that there's certain

991
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 2: things that people like not talking about in historical figures,

992
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 2: and one of them is gayness. And you can't do

993
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 2: it to Oscar Wild, who people actually try by specifically

994
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 2: trying to pain him as a pedophile instead of.

995
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:43,720
Speaker 3: A gaming Oh yeah, okay.

996
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 2: And one of the other things that people try to

997
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 2: write out of history is political positions, especially anarchism, because

998
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 2: anarchism is like it's a harder sell to more people,

999
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 2: and there are more political positions that specifically. This is

1000
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 2: most conspiracytorial i'll probably ever be, but stay communists and

1001
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 2: capitalists both have a vested interest in having people not

1002
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 2: know about anarchist history. I find that, like it's funny

1003
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 2: because like social democrats don't have as much of that

1004
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 2: and you'll like see more earnest actually talking about anarchism

1005
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 2: within like social democrat circles. This is my experience of this.

1006
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 2: So I think that it's a combination. It's also that

1007
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 2: people don't want to talk about. They want asceticism to

1008
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 2: be completely vapid and frivolous and don't want to address.

1009
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:37,320
Speaker 2: And I even thought that I went to art school

1010
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:38,760
Speaker 2: for two years and I hated it and I hated

1011
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 2: people walk around me like our for art sake, and

1012
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 2: I'm like fuck that, Like yeah, you know, but then

1013
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 2: once you understand it as like, well, shouldn't we live

1014
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 2: beautiful lives? Yeah, shouldn't we seek to make the spaces

1015
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 2: that we are in esthetically pleasing? You know, It's like

1016
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:00,399
Speaker 2: saying interior design matters, and not that interior design needs

1017
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 2: to be covered in political posters. But then instead interior

1018
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 2: design like helps us live beautiful lives and be our

1019
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 2: best selves. And so I think that it's just that

1020
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 2: people don't want meaning out of him, you know, they

1021
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:13,399
Speaker 2: want well.

1022
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 3: And I guess there's like a big difference between like

1023
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 3: the aesthetics of like decadence, meaning like that comes out

1024
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:25,839
Speaker 3: of richness versus like you said, I think we said

1025
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:29,800
Speaker 3: in part one about like planting wildflowers outside. That's still

1026
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 3: like they're they're in service of the same like internal

1027
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 3: transformation that happens when you witness beauty, because that it's

1028
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 3: a it's a transformational act that I think teaches empathy.

1029
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 3: Like experiencing beauty is something that encourages empathy. And it

1030
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 3: doesn't have to have anything to do with material things.

1031
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 3: It just has to do with like, I mean, it

1032
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 3: does have to do with material things, but you know

1033
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,759
Speaker 3: what I mean, it doesn't there's no caliber of material

1034
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 3: thing that is beautiful by virtue of it being that way, right,

1035
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 3: It's like you can have, you know, you can have

1036
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,879
Speaker 3: a mansion that's ugly as fuck, you know, like, and

1037
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,320
Speaker 3: you can have like a space that you've made beautiful

1038
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 3: without any real wealth, you know. So yeah, I think

1039
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,399
Speaker 3: that it's easy to think that beauty is some sort

1040
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 3: of an elite concept, but it really isn't.

1041
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's funny because because one of the things

1042
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 2: he talks about sometimes is he talks about how one

1043
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 2: of the reasons that we have to end poverty is

1044
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 2: so that people can create and so that they don't

1045
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 2: have to spend all of their hours working, you know,

1046
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 2: so that they can create. Like he was very he

1047
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 2: was also he was also I didn't even put in

1048
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 2: he's totally fully luxuriated, fully automated, luxury space communism. He

1049
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,720
Speaker 2: is like, we'll get the machines to do the work

1050
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 2: so that we can make the art. And of course

1051
00:56:57,120 --> 00:56:59,319
Speaker 2: now we live in a horrible nightmare in version of

1052
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,839
Speaker 2: that where the machines are coming for the art and

1053
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 2: not the right word, right. But yeah, no, I just

1054
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 2: like I like him so much more than I I

1055
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 2: was like always cool, you know, Like, but I'm like, no, yeah,

1056
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:20,439
Speaker 2: like socialism for art's sake, not art for socialism's sake.

1057
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm on board.

1058
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 3: I get it. I like it. Yeah, I love it.

1059
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 2: Well, that's that's fantastic.

1060
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for telling me all of this.

1061
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 3: I really like, I feel, I don't know, it's really

1062
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 3: it's making me rethink so much about my life because

1063
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 3: I've just I've loved Oscar Wilde and in such a

1064
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 3: you know, it's just such a specific way, and you know,

1065
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 3: it really does Like I think of his grave, you know,

1066
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 3: which is such a such a beautiful image for anyone

1067
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 3: who doesn't know, you know, like he had I believe

1068
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 3: like a marble tombstone would do you remember what it says.

1069
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 2: Oh, it's a quote from Deperfundus, but I don't remember

1070
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 2: what it is, right, or maybe it's a quote from

1071
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 2: the Ballad of Reading Jail.

1072
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's something. But people for years and years and

1073
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 3: years would like put on lipstick and leave lipstick kisses

1074
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 3: on the grave and it was just really lovely. And

1075
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 3: I think a few years ago they finally like put

1076
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 3: a horrible plastic barrier all around it.

1077
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, which I think people still kiss.

1078
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, you got to, yeah, because he would just love that.

1079
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 3: They'll kiss Oscar Wilde's grave if you can jump the barrier.

1080
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1081
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 5: No. Oh.

1082
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 2: And then the person Robbie was the person who got

1083
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 2: the funeral arrangements and stuff in order, and I think

1084
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 2: was behind the At first, I think he was. It

1085
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 2: was a very poor grave, and then eventually enough money

1086
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 2: and enough people came together for it, like eventually people

1087
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 2: stop being so mad at him or whatever, you know.

1088
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 2: But he had it a little like there's like a

1089
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 2: slot in it for his own ashes, and so he

1090
00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 2: had his ashes put in Oscar wild scra So.

1091
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 3: It was Oscar, Robbie and Bosie.

1092
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Bosie. They actually did reconnect after they reconnected. Really,

1093
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 2: everyone's like, please, don't fucking meet up with Bosie, and

1094
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 2: they like meet up.

1095
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 3: We know that friend of ours. We're like, don't go

1096
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 3: yeah and see them.

1097
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, they actually did meet up again a little bit,

1098
00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 2: but they they went their separate ways.

1099
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 3: Like, rob are they not get buried by each other?

1100
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 2: Oh? Is he buried by them?

1101
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 5: No?

1102
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 3: I thought you who who was buried next to?

1103
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 2: So Robbie Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, Robbie has got the

1104
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 2: cremation there. Yeah no, I think I did say buried

1105
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 2: next to earlier and that's not technically that's still very sweet,

1106
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 2: yeah no, And I love it too because it's like, well,

1107
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 2: these are the people that we come from, Like Dandy's

1108
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 2: are stronger than we like like thinking about like I

1109
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 2: mean like queen culture, right is like people who have

1110
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 2: hard life. I love the idea that someone sees like

1111
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 2: I'm making air quotes here an audience can't see, but

1112
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 2: like a man walking down the street dressed like a

1113
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:12,760
Speaker 2: woman and thinks there's someone who's afraid, you know, yeah,

1114
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 2: like seriously, we come from stern stuff. Yeah, yeah, and

1115
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean we still can't be beautiful and soft

1116
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 2: and plant flowers everywhere and be limp wristed and lounge

1117
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 2: around on Shay's lounges. It's just sometimes you have to

1118
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:33,040
Speaker 2: beat up four men at once and then rob them

1119
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 2: for their liquor.

1120
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 3: And slap the shit out of the school bully, you know.

1121
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:43,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, well, thank you so much for being

1122
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 2: the guest. If people want to hear more of what

1123
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 2: you have to say, where can they do that?

1124
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:49,280
Speaker 5: Uh?

1125
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can find my podcast, American Hysteria pretty much

1126
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 3: anywhere that you listen to podcasts, and you can find

1127
01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:59,919
Speaker 3: me on social media at American Hysteria podcast too.

1128
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, yeah, I'll plug. It's been a while at

1129
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 2: this point, but I finally finished Raw Dog by Jamie

1130
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 2: Loftus and it's real good. I listened to the audio.

1131
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 2: Looks great and good, and I love having conversations where

1132
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:19,440
Speaker 2: speaking of something that gets presented as surface. You know,

1133
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 2: it's a book about the history of hot dogs and

1134
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 2: which hot dogs are best in America. It is also

1135
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 2: a incredibly radical book and has all kinds of value

1136
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 2: besides it, So I will shout out that you should

1137
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:35,320
Speaker 2: go listen to raw Dog by Jamie Loftis or I

1138
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 2: guess read We'll.

1139
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 3: Say too that. If you want more Jamie Loftus hot

1140
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 3: dog content, I told Jamie a bunch of hot dog

1141
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 3: related urban legends on American Hysterio ones and that was

1142
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 3: a lot of fun.

1143
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 2: Oh shit, I'm going to listen to that, Sophie. You

1144
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 2: guys think the plug.

1145
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 1: Listen to all the podcasts I've made with Jamie loft Disk.

1146
01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 3: I guess we're just doing a Jamie plug.

1147
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 2: Yeah me, the new Oscar Wild Oh oh, if anyone

1148
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 2: I can think of them immediately anyway, Yeah.

1149
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, little bit, that's the podcast.

1150
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 2: See everyone next week.

1151
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1152
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on the cool Zone Media,

1153
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 1: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

1154
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio, app, app a Podcasts, or wherever you get

1155
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 1: your podcasts.