WEBVTT - COVID Cofusion: Spreading the Virus While Asymptomatic

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<v Speaker 1>It's Tuesday, June six. I'm Oscar Emiraz from the Daily

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<v Speaker 1>Dive podcast in Los Angeles, and this is reopening America.

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<v Speaker 1>We're in a new phase in the fight against the

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<v Speaker 1>coronavirus pandemic. We're social distancing, we're wearing face masks, and

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<v Speaker 1>we're reopening the country. I'll still give you updates on

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<v Speaker 1>the latest news about the virus and vaccine development, but

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<v Speaker 1>also be sharing stories about how we're reopening America after

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<v Speaker 1>the coronavirus shutdowns. Can people who are asymptomatic spread COVID nineteen?

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<v Speaker 1>The w h O last week said it was very

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<v Speaker 1>rare and then how to walk it back, saying that

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<v Speaker 1>the error was confusion due to a muddling of scientific

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<v Speaker 1>jargon and that there was a difference between asymptomatic and

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<v Speaker 1>pre symptomatic people. Either way, the virus can be spread

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<v Speaker 1>whether a person exhibits symptoms or not. Greg Barber, staff

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<v Speaker 1>writer at Wired, joins us for more on the COVID confusion.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us, Greg, Thanks for having me. I

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to talk about coronavirus. Obviously, it's a novel coronavirus.

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<v Speaker 1>We're learning so much about this as we go along

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<v Speaker 1>and they're so much that we don't know about it.

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<v Speaker 1>And one of the things also that has been troubling

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<v Speaker 1>is kind of the wording and the terminology used when

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<v Speaker 1>describing this and describing transmission rates and all that stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>And last week we got some confusing things out of

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<v Speaker 1>the w h O, the World Health Organization. It sounded

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<v Speaker 1>as if people that were asymptomatic or presenting no symptoms

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<v Speaker 1>weren't spreading the virus. That was kind of that mixed

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<v Speaker 1>messaging that we were getting. Then they had to go

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<v Speaker 1>back and retract it and say, well, it's rare, but

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<v Speaker 1>it does happen. And it got very confusing very quickly.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, people that were saying that we shouldn't be

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<v Speaker 1>shutting down the economy over this used this as a

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<v Speaker 1>kind of a rallying cry, saying, hey, look see even

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<v Speaker 1>the who is saying that these people are not spreading it,

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<v Speaker 1>but that's not necessarily true. Greg helped walk us through

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<v Speaker 1>this and talk about people that are asymptomatic, pre symptomatic,

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<v Speaker 1>and then all the terminology used to describe it. So

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<v Speaker 1>on Monday, an epidemiologist named Mariyavan Kharkov, who is a

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<v Speaker 1>technical lead for the World Health Organization's covered response. She

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<v Speaker 1>was asked a question about asymptomatic transmission. This is really

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<v Speaker 1>the key word here, and she said that these cases

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<v Speaker 1>are very rare, especially these cases when they actually cause

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<v Speaker 1>other infections of COVID nineteen. So this got picked up

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<v Speaker 1>really quickly. Asymptomatic infections are very rare, and this was

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<v Speaker 1>really a sort of became a rallying cry, particularly among

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<v Speaker 1>pundits and news organizations that think that the lockdowns are overblown.

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<v Speaker 1>And there's kind of a neat logic to that, the

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<v Speaker 1>logic behind shelter in places that you and I should

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<v Speaker 1>stay home even if we feel fine, because we might

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<v Speaker 1>be at risk to others. But you know, if asymptomatic

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<v Speaker 1>infections are rare, then I'm only at risk to others

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<v Speaker 1>if I'm showing symptoms. So those symptoms are basically signal

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<v Speaker 1>to me to stay home. But this got a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of pushback. Epidemiologists are basically watching with horror. What it

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<v Speaker 1>came down to is that there are two different ways

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<v Speaker 1>of talking about asymptomatic. One, of course, is this general

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<v Speaker 1>definition where it refers to people without symptoms. But Van

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<v Speaker 1>Kirkov was actually using in a much narrower sense. She

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<v Speaker 1>meant people who never show symptoms throughout the entire course

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<v Speaker 1>of their illness, and that's actually somewhat rare, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>to distinguish from people who might not be showing symptoms

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<v Speaker 1>right now, but then go on to show symptoms. There's

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<v Speaker 1>another term for that, that's pretty symptomatic. So in a sense,

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<v Speaker 1>everyone is pretty symptomatic at some point, usually when you

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<v Speaker 1>get a new virus and it takes a couple of

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<v Speaker 1>days for symptoms to develop, and there's actually a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of evidence in that stage of the disease those people

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<v Speaker 1>are actually quite infectious. There have been studies on this

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<v Speaker 1>thing called viral load, which is basically like the number

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<v Speaker 1>of copies of virus that they find inside people, and

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<v Speaker 1>these pre symptomatic people are actually have really high viral loads.

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<v Speaker 1>And so that's not to say that they're necessarily infecting

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<v Speaker 1>other people. One distinguishing factor might just be that they're

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<v Speaker 1>not out there coughing and sneezing, which can spread the virus.

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<v Speaker 1>But they do have a lot of infectious virus to

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<v Speaker 1>share with others, even just by speaking and breathing, and

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<v Speaker 1>then obviously increases the calls for people to wear face masks.

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<v Speaker 1>You don't know whether you could be shedding that or

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<v Speaker 1>is at any moment whether you're asymptomatic or pre symptomatic,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's why you don't want to be spreading that out.

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<v Speaker 1>But one of the things that puts a hinder on

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<v Speaker 1>what is when it comes to contact tracing, because it's

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<v Speaker 1>really hard to nail somebody down if they weren't experiencing

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<v Speaker 1>any symptoms, so they could have got somebody sick. Then

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<v Speaker 1>later on, you know, it's the job of the contact

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<v Speaker 1>tracer to kind of find out who it was, who

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<v Speaker 1>was the source, and it just really complicates everything because

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<v Speaker 1>they were never experiencing those symptoms. I should step back

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<v Speaker 1>and say that, as von Karkiv clarified, it's actually not

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<v Speaker 1>really certain whether these true asymptomatic people and these people

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<v Speaker 1>who never show symptoms are rare or not, but there's

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<v Speaker 1>increasing evidence that they are. This is from studies that

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<v Speaker 1>have tracked coronavirus patients to see if they developed symptoms

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<v Speaker 1>down the road, and there's often finding the people who

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<v Speaker 1>maybe they didn't think that they had symptoms, maybe they

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<v Speaker 1>had like a gas or intestinal issues or something, so

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<v Speaker 1>they just kind of maybe we're classified as a symptomatic

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<v Speaker 1>and further investigation and it turns out the they have

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<v Speaker 1>had mild symptoms are just weird symptoms that they didn't

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<v Speaker 1>think went with COVID nineteen. So finding out that more

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<v Speaker 1>over time that these true asymptomatic infections is actually somewhat

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<v Speaker 1>rare is actually a good thing, because, as you say,

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<v Speaker 1>those people are really hard to track in contact tracing

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<v Speaker 1>because they're probably not very likely to go get a

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<v Speaker 1>test these kind of invisible transmitters that contact tracers can't find. Generally,

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<v Speaker 1>you have to kind of work back to those people

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<v Speaker 1>because you might find somebody that they infected who is

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<v Speaker 1>symptomatic and went in and got a test, and then

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<v Speaker 1>you find just by interviewing all their different contacts that oh, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that person is sort of at the core of multiple infections,

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<v Speaker 1>or maybe they remember symptoms that they didn't report didn't

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<v Speaker 1>think merited a test. So in that respect, I think

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<v Speaker 1>that they're epidemiologists are a little bit heartened by the

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<v Speaker 1>kind of growing concessus around the rarity of these truly

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<v Speaker 1>asymptomatic cases. Yeah, and there's a bunch of reports that

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<v Speaker 1>have estimated the numbers very Obviously there's one report that

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<v Speaker 1>says about cases are asymptomatic. There's others that lower that

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<v Speaker 1>down to maybe about that are asymptomatic. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's just again like a cautionary thing. You know, these

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<v Speaker 1>people that might be asymptomatic, but they work in these

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<v Speaker 1>up close and personal fields healthcare workers, hairdressers, cashiers, people

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<v Speaker 1>that are handing things back and forth with people. They

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<v Speaker 1>could be spreading it and not knowing it. That's why

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<v Speaker 1>it's important that they get tested regularly. Everyone else needs

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<v Speaker 1>to just kind of hold the line and kind of

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<v Speaker 1>as we've been saying, where the mask, wash your hands,

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<v Speaker 1>and kind of just generally be careful about things. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>this was actually incorporated into the strategy of one of

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<v Speaker 1>the epidemiologists I spoke to last week for testing folks.

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<v Speaker 1>Name is marm Kilpatrick, and he works in Santa Cruz

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<v Speaker 1>County in California, and he's been incorporating these sort of

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<v Speaker 1>proportion of asymptomatic cases into the strategy for testing because

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<v Speaker 1>testing is still at this point somewhat expensive. It's difficult

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<v Speaker 1>to coordinate, it's difficult to get people to show up

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<v Speaker 1>at some dry through a spot for a swab. So

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<v Speaker 1>he's been trying to target basically advertise these tests to

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<v Speaker 1>people who are getting up closing personal like those hairdressers

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<v Speaker 1>and healthcare workers. Of course, in order to make sure

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<v Speaker 1>that if those people are going to be the asymptomatic cases,

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<v Speaker 1>that they get tested early on so that we know

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<v Speaker 1>if they're infecting others, we can contact trace, we can

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<v Speaker 1>isolate those cases and hold the virus at bay. Just

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<v Speaker 1>very important to keep track and keep following, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>how things are being described, and kind of be smart

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<v Speaker 1>about it. You know, if somebody is asymptomatic just doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>mean that they can't spread it at all. It's very

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<v Speaker 1>well possible that they could. But yeah, obviously it's a

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<v Speaker 1>little more obvious. Somebody that's coughing and sneezing is probably

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<v Speaker 1>should stay home because they might be launching out those

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<v Speaker 1>particles out further than somebody else might be. So just

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<v Speaker 1>very interesting in the way things get described and the

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<v Speaker 1>way things get misconstrued after people start blowing things up.

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<v Speaker 1>Gregory Barber, staff writer and Wired, thank you very much

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<v Speaker 1>for joining us. Thanks for having me. I'm Oscar Emiraz

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<v Speaker 1>and this is reopening America. Don't forget after today's big

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<v Speaker 1>news stories You can check me out on the Daily

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<v Speaker 1>Dive podcast every Monday through Friday, so follow us on

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<v Speaker 1>I Heart Radio or wherever you get your podcast