WEBVTT - #379 Jason Flom with Keith LaMar Pt. 1

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<v Speaker 1>On Easter Sunday nineteen ninety three, inmates at Lucasville Prison

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<v Speaker 1>in Ohio took control of an entire cell block. The

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<v Speaker 1>crisis that became known as the Lucasville Prison Riot lasted

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<v Speaker 1>eleven days and claimed ten lives, including one of the

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<v Speaker 1>prison guards. When the cell block was finally surrendered, an

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<v Speaker 1>investigation ensued aimed at bringing the riot leadership to justice.

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<v Speaker 1>After several rounds of interviews, five names emerged, including a

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<v Speaker 1>man who lived on that cell block named Keith Lamar Now.

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<v Speaker 1>According to the state, Keith had allegedly commanded a team

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<v Speaker 1>of men who murdered four supposed snitches before heading out

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<v Speaker 1>to the prison yard, where the authorities ushered all the

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<v Speaker 1>inmates into another block that was still under state controlled. Then,

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<v Speaker 1>while confined in a cell with nine other men, he

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<v Speaker 1>allegedly ordered one more death. The other inmates weren't telling

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<v Speaker 1>this particular story in their initial interviews, but by the

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<v Speaker 1>time of Keith's Capitol trial, they were all somehow singing

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<v Speaker 1>the same tune and that had to count for something.

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<v Speaker 1>But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction.

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<v Speaker 1>Today's guest is somebody I've been waiting for for a

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<v Speaker 1>long time. His story. As terrifying as it is, it's

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<v Speaker 1>also the stuff of legend because this is a man

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<v Speaker 1>and Keith, I'm talking about you. I'm talking about you

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<v Speaker 1>in the third person. I'm going to talk directly to you. Now, Keith,

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<v Speaker 1>do you have had a life that if somebody wrote

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<v Speaker 1>it into a movie nobody would believe it? And this

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<v Speaker 1>is a guy. Now I'm back to talking about the

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<v Speaker 1>third person who has performed concerts all over the world

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<v Speaker 1>from inside of your cell on death Throw.

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<v Speaker 2>It sounds bizarre when I hear you say it, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>but yeah, it's been It's been a hell of a

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<v Speaker 2>journey man to say, at least in this situation that

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<v Speaker 2>I'm currently facing, has only focus me more all trying

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<v Speaker 2>to get as much life out of my life as

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<v Speaker 2>I possibly can.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, despite fighting for your very life from

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<v Speaker 1>death row, which is literally hell on Earth, your pursuit

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<v Speaker 1>of art and life seems to have only gotten stronger.

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<v Speaker 1>And like I just mentioned, you've put on this spoken

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<v Speaker 1>word and jazz concert series called Freedom First. And if

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<v Speaker 1>that wasn't enough, you also put out an album by

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<v Speaker 1>the same name. But there's even more, you know, there's.

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<v Speaker 2>Books, documentaries, book clubs, and so on and so forth.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll just wake up and try to do as much

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<v Speaker 2>as I can with the time that I have, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>which is what we all should be.

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<v Speaker 1>Going, right Yeah. I mean I don't even know a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of people out here in the free world who

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<v Speaker 1>are living as much as you are inside the literal

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<v Speaker 1>living hell of Ohio Death Row. And we're going to

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<v Speaker 1>get into all of that in more detail later on,

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<v Speaker 1>and we're also going to be hearing from one of

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<v Speaker 1>your attorneys, Keegan Stefan, as well. But now I just

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<v Speaker 1>want to turn around first and start from the beginning

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<v Speaker 1>of your life. You were born and grew up in Cleveland, right, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I was born in nineteen sixty nine on the east

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<v Speaker 2>side of Cleveland, Ohio, in a small little enc clave

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<v Speaker 2>called the Village. You know that I was saying in

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<v Speaker 2>case of village, I think the people who founded this

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<v Speaker 2>little place took that seriously. My grandfather, Harry Lamar, brought

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<v Speaker 2>his own home in this little enc clave. It was

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<v Speaker 2>made up of people who were in one form or

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<v Speaker 2>another related and you know, during dinner time, you can

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<v Speaker 2>walk into any number of houses and you know, people

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<v Speaker 2>will let you sit down and eat dinner, where there

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<v Speaker 2>was no distinction about the economic status because everybody was

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<v Speaker 2>pretty much on the same level. And that's where I

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<v Speaker 2>really grew up at from a baby until I was

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<v Speaker 2>around seven or eight, and my mother met and married

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<v Speaker 2>a man named Larry Morris, and shortly thereafter we moved

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<v Speaker 2>out of the village into the inner city.

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<v Speaker 1>Basically, I mean, the village sounds pretty amazing. It seems

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<v Speaker 1>like an odd choice to leave. What were the circumstances.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, my grandmother, she was to make sure of our

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<v Speaker 2>other family, pretty much said what went and what didn't

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<v Speaker 2>go in our family. And my stepfather didn't like that,

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<v Speaker 2>and so he moved so he can kind of run

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<v Speaker 2>his own household. But he was a side or the

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<v Speaker 2>steff at a country club, working for me good wages.

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<v Speaker 2>And so that was the first time my life and

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<v Speaker 2>I ever remember being home grey and sometimes, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the lights would be off, the gas would be off,

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<v Speaker 2>and we had to heat the house with you know,

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<v Speaker 2>keeping the oven door open and whatnot, and we weren't

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<v Speaker 2>allowed to tell my grandparents about this. It all kind

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<v Speaker 2>of happened between nine and twelve years old, and that

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<v Speaker 2>is where I kind of marked the change in my life,

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<v Speaker 2>becoming aware of the poverty. You know, you go to

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<v Speaker 2>school to learn an arithmetic but so your peers teach

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<v Speaker 2>you other things we couldn't afford. Polo and guest cheane

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<v Speaker 2>and all these different things that meant so much to

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<v Speaker 2>my peers.

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<v Speaker 1>So I take it you wanted to fit in. What

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<v Speaker 1>did you do to make that happen or to try

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<v Speaker 1>to make that happen?

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<v Speaker 2>I worked. I had two paper routes, cutting grass, shoveling snow,

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<v Speaker 2>you know did all those things? You know of pants

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<v Speaker 2>might cost fifty sixty dollars. And this is before Eric

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<v Speaker 2>Jordan came out potennis. Shoot. It was just out of

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<v Speaker 2>my range as a kid trying to do it a

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<v Speaker 2>legitimate way. And you know kids are brutal. Man. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you show up with some knockoff Jordia's jeans and you

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<v Speaker 2>mass well came to school. But Neckett, you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>ridicule was severe. It's all autitary bullshit. But you don't

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<v Speaker 2>know that when you were a kid. And my brother,

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<v Speaker 2>when I was saying, who was twelve, he was hanging

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<v Speaker 2>out with all the kids, and you know he had

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<v Speaker 2>undergone the same ridicule as I did, and had quickly

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<v Speaker 2>opt to become a thief once I just made the

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<v Speaker 2>decision to become a thief myself. He you know, kind

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<v Speaker 2>of showed me how to go about stealing clothes and

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<v Speaker 2>how to you know, remove the alarms from the jeans

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<v Speaker 2>and all this stuff. But then, you know, the reward

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<v Speaker 2>of coming walking into the school building with some Jordas's

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<v Speaker 2>jeans and a Polo shirt, The reception that I received

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<v Speaker 2>from my peers. I mean, all of a sudden, girls

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<v Speaker 2>who wouldn't speak to me a year ago are putting

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<v Speaker 2>notes in my locker, and I think I got addicted

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<v Speaker 2>to that, and so that ultimately became my life. And

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<v Speaker 2>started hanging with a group of older kids in the neighborhood.

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<v Speaker 1>And these were the guys that your older brother was

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<v Speaker 1>friends with.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, it was a couple of guys like legends

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<v Speaker 2>in the neighborhood that lived in Joe Butler, Joe Bruce,

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<v Speaker 2>Daryl Daniels. I was thirteen by then, and they were

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<v Speaker 2>like fifteen, sixteen years old. And my older brother, Nelson

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<v Speaker 2>what he had already been sent Toby to juvenile and

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<v Speaker 2>so I was pretty much by myself and I fell

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<v Speaker 2>in with these guys one day and we all piled

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<v Speaker 2>into a stolen car and we was going to drive

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<v Speaker 2>out to the adjacent suburb. As soon as we crossed

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<v Speaker 2>over and to Sacred Heights, a police officers got right

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<v Speaker 2>behind us, and we were in this high speed chase,

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<v Speaker 2>like on eighty miles an hour, were down a residential district.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was actually relieved when I got caught, like,

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<v Speaker 2>thank god, you know, because this was extreme situation for

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<v Speaker 2>me in my life. And we went before this judge

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<v Speaker 2>and he lined us all up, was about six of

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<v Speaker 2>us altogether in our families, and he went down the

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<v Speaker 2>line and he was giving guy six months for each

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<v Speaker 2>offense that they had. And he said, Joe Bruce, this

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<v Speaker 2>your third time in front of me eighteen months. Joe Butler,

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<v Speaker 2>this your second time a year, you know. And he

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<v Speaker 2>got down to me. He said, Keith Lamar said, what

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<v Speaker 2>are you doing hanging with these bad boys? Now? You know,

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<v Speaker 2>try to look big and you know, hang my head

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<v Speaker 2>and hunch my shoulders, you know. And he gave my

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<v Speaker 2>mother and my parents to oper me say, I tell

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<v Speaker 2>you what I'm gonna do. Parents, you need to take

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<v Speaker 2>them home and deal with them while I deal with them.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, stepfather told him, you deal with them,

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<v Speaker 2>and fifteen minutes later I was sitting in the jail cell.

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<v Speaker 1>So given the choice, your stepfather effectively threw you away.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because to him, my brother and I we were

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<v Speaker 2>just two extra miles to see.

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<v Speaker 1>And your mother didn't have anything to say about that.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, deally, that's what you would have hoped for

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<v Speaker 2>somebody to intervene. But she she had already been broken

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<v Speaker 2>to the point where she accepted somebody like this as

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<v Speaker 2>her husband. You know, any man is better than no man,

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<v Speaker 2>and as it turns out, he was. He was like

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<v Speaker 2>a monster. He was, you know, the very abusive.

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<v Speaker 1>So now you're going from the boiling pot into the

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<v Speaker 1>sizzling frying pan, so to speak. How long was your

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<v Speaker 1>stint in Juvie?

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<v Speaker 2>Six months? But I was thirteen, so it felt like

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<v Speaker 2>six years, believing or not compared the situation I lived

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<v Speaker 2>and wasn't so bad. I had pre square meals a day.

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<v Speaker 2>I was n a structured environment. I came out of it.

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<v Speaker 2>I was on a on a roll in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>my academic portion.

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<v Speaker 1>Of my life, and who knows, maybe you could have

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<v Speaker 1>kept going in that direction. Had you returned to a

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<v Speaker 1>more stable, you know, home in life.

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<v Speaker 2>When I when I came home, I came home, my

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<v Speaker 2>parents had moved into a two bedroom apartment, as if

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<v Speaker 2>my brother and I had went off through the army

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<v Speaker 2>or something that we weren't coming back home, and so

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<v Speaker 2>we moved up into this uninsulated attic. Was freezing cold

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<v Speaker 2>and the winter squorching hot in the summer, and we

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<v Speaker 2>were pretty much put on notice that we were on

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<v Speaker 2>our own, beyond our bear necessities, that we would not

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<v Speaker 2>be provided for. And I was thirteen still when I

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<v Speaker 2>came home, I think I'm gonna have to start selling marijuana.

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<v Speaker 3>Weed.

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<v Speaker 2>I bought two ounces of marijuana and I didn't look back. Man,

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<v Speaker 2>that was the beginning of the infamy.

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<v Speaker 1>Yah, what about your brother?

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<v Speaker 2>My brother had found the means of escape. He met

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<v Speaker 2>this girl named Paula who lives in the suburbs, and

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<v Speaker 2>her mother took a liking to my brother and allow

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<v Speaker 2>him to move in with them. And he was going

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<v Speaker 2>to school in suburbs. So it's me basically by myself.

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<v Speaker 2>Now I'm fourteen years old, I'm selling marijuana. I'm so

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<v Speaker 2>serious about it too, because I figured this is my

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<v Speaker 2>only way out, and I became very good at that.

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<v Speaker 2>I had about five or six guys working for me

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<v Speaker 2>and everything, young guys fourteen thirteen years old, selling real

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<v Speaker 2>I'm on the street corners and whatnot. And I came

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<v Speaker 2>home one day and discovered that my stepfather had been

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<v Speaker 2>up in my room and had found one of my

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<v Speaker 2>statues of money. I bought me a safe, and not

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<v Speaker 2>long after that, my stepfather kicked me out. I was

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<v Speaker 2>fifteen years old and I moved into the projects. This

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<v Speaker 2>was an apartment where we were selling drugs out of there.

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<v Speaker 2>And this was around eighty five eighty six, right around

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<v Speaker 2>the time crack cocaine started trickling into the ghetto. Nobody

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<v Speaker 2>really knew what it was, how dangerous it was.

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<v Speaker 1>So at the time it just seemed like an easy

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<v Speaker 1>way to make money. The profit margins are better than

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<v Speaker 1>they are with weed, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, that's right, but the danger increases too. And at

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<v Speaker 2>first everything was cope, said it. I was snorting cocaine

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<v Speaker 2>by the time I was sixteen. I had a Mercedes

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<v Speaker 2>Benz Cadillac, driving Porsches, BMW Rolex watches, but around a

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<v Speaker 2>year or two, about nineteen eighty eight, was like the

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<v Speaker 2>height of the epidemic, and all the detrimental effects of

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<v Speaker 2>crack cocaine really started to become clear. The communities were

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<v Speaker 2>being decimated by this drug, and guys I grew up

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<v Speaker 2>with were becoming dope fiends, and young women were selling

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<v Speaker 2>their bodies, and it was just a real horrifying period

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<v Speaker 2>to live through.

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<v Speaker 1>As a crack epidemic were on, the community became increasingly desperate,

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<v Speaker 1>affecting even Keith's childhood friend, Kenyada Collins.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, he and I grew up together. We used

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<v Speaker 2>to walk to school together, played basketball together. By the

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<v Speaker 2>time nineteen eighty eight rolled around, he was, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>hooked on a crack cocaine pretty significantly and had fell

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<v Speaker 2>in with a group of guys called stick up kids,

0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:42.720
<v Speaker 2>you know that used to go around robbing drug deal

0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:45.680
<v Speaker 2>and so I became one of the targets.

0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:48.240
<v Speaker 1>And on December second, nineteen eighty eight, Keith was at

0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.360
<v Speaker 1>the apartment that served as the base of his drug

0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.520
<v Speaker 1>operation when Kenyata and the stick Up Kids showed up.

0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:57.200
<v Speaker 2>Now back in the back bedrooms counting money, and I

0:11:57.240 --> 0:11:59.319
<v Speaker 2>heard commotion in the front. I come to the front

0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.040
<v Speaker 2>of the door and guys were forcing their way into

0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:04.800
<v Speaker 2>the apartment. You know, I had the gun in my hand.

0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:08.480
<v Speaker 2>I was shot twice, myself in the legs, you know.

0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:10.920
<v Speaker 2>I shot a king out of twice as he came

0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:13.840
<v Speaker 2>through the door. I woke up in the hospital and

0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:15.679
<v Speaker 2>I was right next to the king out of college.

0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:18.839
<v Speaker 2>I heard the doctors when they pronounced him then said no,

0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:22.000
<v Speaker 2>he's not gonna he's not going to make it. And

0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:25.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, I woke up again and I was changed

0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:28.040
<v Speaker 2>to hospital big, you know. And so it was gradually

0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.160
<v Speaker 2>that it began to dine on me the magnitude or

0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.200
<v Speaker 2>normalcy of what had occurred. Even once I was able

0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:36.680
<v Speaker 2>to walk again, I went to the county jail and

0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:39.400
<v Speaker 2>I bombed out. Got an attorney.

0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:42.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean, this is not a legal opinion, but your

0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:46.200
<v Speaker 1>actions in this incident sure sound like self defense and

0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:47.480
<v Speaker 1>the purest sense of the word.

0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:50.240
<v Speaker 2>But I didn't have access to the old self defense

0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:53.280
<v Speaker 2>now because I was selling drugs. My hands weren't playing right.

0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.040
<v Speaker 1>So what was your attorney's plan.

0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:58.040
<v Speaker 2>This attorney was a friend of a family, and I

0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.400
<v Speaker 2>gave him like ten thousand cash. I gave him a

0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:05.959
<v Speaker 2>Mercedes Benz And nineteen eighty three is savy cavalier. So

0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.840
<v Speaker 2>I gave him two cars in cash to represent me,

0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:12.040
<v Speaker 2>and he came to me on the evil trial with

0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:14.480
<v Speaker 2>this scear tactic and told me, you know that they

0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:16.080
<v Speaker 2>were going to try to put me on death row.

0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:18.439
<v Speaker 2>And I was eighteen nineteen years old at the time,

0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.520
<v Speaker 2>and since I was so ignorant out the law, I

0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:25.000
<v Speaker 2>didn't know how to hold some to account, and I

0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:28.920
<v Speaker 2>played guilty. You know, he convinced me that that was

0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.280
<v Speaker 2>in my benefit to do that, and I didn't find

0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:34.480
<v Speaker 2>out a letter on that he himself was strung out

0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:35.800
<v Speaker 2>on cocaine at the time.

0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.560
<v Speaker 1>It's not ironic enough that you ended up giving the

0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:44.160
<v Speaker 1>proceeds of your successful drug operation to an attorney who

0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:46.880
<v Speaker 1>was one of the consumers of those same drugs, who

0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.400
<v Speaker 1>then ended up selling you more or less down the river.

0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:51.640
<v Speaker 2>You know. The thing that I didn't know that I

0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:54.960
<v Speaker 2>know now that they elevate could climb in order to

0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:57.960
<v Speaker 2>entice you to take in the deal. I played guilty

0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:00.640
<v Speaker 2>to murder. It really should have been mass you know,

0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:04.960
<v Speaker 2>out in the state of defending myself, no four thought

0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:07.800
<v Speaker 2>of malice or anything when in two it's oba's manslaughter.

0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:11.240
<v Speaker 2>But I topped out to murder. It gave me eighteen

0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:13.559
<v Speaker 2>years of life in that and I remember to just saying,

0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, don't worry about his son. It's it's only

0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.640
<v Speaker 2>twelve years six months to the pro boy, you know.

0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:23.160
<v Speaker 2>And I was nineteen at the time. But of course

0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:29.160
<v Speaker 2>he didn't tell me about the danger I was waiting into.

0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:41.920
<v Speaker 1>This podcast is brought to you by Ohio Justice and

0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.160
<v Speaker 1>Policy Center, a nonprofit law firm that seeks justice for

0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:50.200
<v Speaker 1>people directly impacted by Ohio's criminal legal system. OJPC provides

0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.360
<v Speaker 1>free legal services to currently and formally incarcerated people. Through

0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:58.280
<v Speaker 1>it's Beyond Guilt Project, OJPC works to free over punish

0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:02.880
<v Speaker 1>people who have rehabilitated themselve else. Ojpc's Second Chance clinics

0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:07.000
<v Speaker 1>help individuals with criminal records remove barriers to employment and

0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:11.200
<v Speaker 1>house it. Ojpc's Human Rights in Prison Project represents people

0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:14.240
<v Speaker 1>who face denial of medical care. In its twenty five

0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.800
<v Speaker 1>year history, OJPC has worked at the policy level and

0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:21.400
<v Speaker 1>won numerous victories in Ohio, including ending juvenile life with

0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.040
<v Speaker 1>that Parole and exempting seriously mentally ill people from the

0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:28.760
<v Speaker 1>death penalty. To learn more about Ohio Justice and Policy

0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:32.480
<v Speaker 1>Center and how you can support its mission visit OHIOJPC

0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:40.160
<v Speaker 1>dot org. That's OHIOJPC dot org, Ohio Justice and Policy Center.

0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:42.119
<v Speaker 1>We don't write people off.

0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:54.920
<v Speaker 2>They said, meet at Lebanon, Ohio's first I lived in

0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.480
<v Speaker 2>counter of racism that I have. You know, the in

0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:01.880
<v Speaker 2>word You heard it constantly around the clock in where

0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.240
<v Speaker 2>there is in word, And I'm talking about by staff,

0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.840
<v Speaker 2>not just by the prisoners. And it was predominantly white

0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:12.360
<v Speaker 2>guards and predominantly white prisoners down in this place. You know,

0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:16.360
<v Speaker 2>Black people from Inner City were the minority, and everybody

0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:20.680
<v Speaker 2>was hopped up on these weights, the steroids. And after

0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:22.800
<v Speaker 2>hearing all these war stories and young guys like me

0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.760
<v Speaker 2>being raped, you know, I kind of fixed my mind

0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:27.920
<v Speaker 2>that that wouldn't happen to me. Now, I didn't know

0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.720
<v Speaker 2>how I would prevent that from happening to me.

0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I understand that it's not uncommon for people to

0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:35.680
<v Speaker 1>join a prison gang for protection.

0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. It was three gangs, the Black Age Disciples sending

0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:42.480
<v Speaker 2>Muslims although they don't consider themselves a gang, and the

0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:47.520
<v Speaker 2>Aaron Brotherhoods, three major factions that kind of control the resources,

0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:50.440
<v Speaker 2>the media resources inside the prison. Since we were down

0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.720
<v Speaker 2>in southern Ohio, the Aaron Brotherhood were being armed by

0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.520
<v Speaker 2>the guards who worked there, some of whom were in

0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:59.400
<v Speaker 2>the Aaron Brotherhood. They had swashackles on their necks and

0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.600
<v Speaker 2>all of this, and brotherhood they had real nice not

0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.920
<v Speaker 2>the makeshift nine the shanks that you see on television,

0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.479
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of things that were being brought in by

0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:09.919
<v Speaker 2>the guards.

0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:12.320
<v Speaker 1>But you didn't join the Sunni Muslims or the Black

0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:14.119
<v Speaker 1>Gangster Disciples, right, Oh.

0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.800
<v Speaker 2>You presume I wasn't in the area and brotherhood but forgot.

0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.400
<v Speaker 1>How rude of me? Not that I mean, I'm sure

0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:22.959
<v Speaker 1>their invite got lost somehow.

0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:26.840
<v Speaker 2>I never got an invite. But the first thing I

0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.400
<v Speaker 2>did when I came to Leven I joined the boxing team.

0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.040
<v Speaker 2>That was, you know, one of the best things I

0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.520
<v Speaker 2>could have done. You know, once twice a year you

0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.520
<v Speaker 2>have a boxing match in front of the whole prison.

0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.200
<v Speaker 2>You can show everybody what you made of and people

0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.359
<v Speaker 2>can perform the opinion after that as to whether or

0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.040
<v Speaker 2>not you are an easy game or whatever. You know.

0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:49.520
<v Speaker 2>But I got my GDD and then they rolling into

0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:52.320
<v Speaker 2>the college program. So I was on the trajectory in

0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.520
<v Speaker 2>terms of preparing myself for this this parole.

0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:57.760
<v Speaker 1>Date and staying out of a prison gang was part

0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:01.320
<v Speaker 1>of that plan, which continued after was transferred from Lebanon

0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:04.080
<v Speaker 1>to Lucasville in nineteen ninety one, which was arguably a

0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:08.959
<v Speaker 1>more difficult and violent situation because of a truly tragic

0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:13.119
<v Speaker 1>incident involving an adult education teacher who worked at the prison.

0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.760
<v Speaker 2>Beverly Taylor was a name, and she was murdered by

0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:21.200
<v Speaker 2>a black prisoner for nineteen ninety calls for the guy

0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.760
<v Speaker 2>to be executed or being put forth by the community,

0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.400
<v Speaker 2>but the guy was mentally handicapped and was deemed ineligible

0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.520
<v Speaker 2>for the death journality, so they didn't get what they wanted,

0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:34.680
<v Speaker 2>and so ultimately a new warden was appointed, a guy

0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:38.200
<v Speaker 2>they author take I think around ninety ninety one. And

0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:42.920
<v Speaker 2>so after Kate instituted this thing called Operations Shakedown, and

0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:46.600
<v Speaker 2>he started kind of turning the grooves, tightening up on everything.

0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:48.639
<v Speaker 2>You know, you have to have your shirt tucked in

0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.800
<v Speaker 2>at all times. She got to walk on the right

0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:54.840
<v Speaker 2>side of the hallway. It was more or less like

0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:58.280
<v Speaker 2>a military camp down, you know, something that happened overnight.

0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:01.320
<v Speaker 2>He set up this po box. He wanted to drop

0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:03.800
<v Speaker 2>the dime on somebody who wanted to become a snisch.

0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.600
<v Speaker 2>You just put in an anonymous note in the mailbox

0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:10.000
<v Speaker 2>on your way to chow and he would act on it.

0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:14.439
<v Speaker 2>So it was a very contentious environment, all the various

0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:18.040
<v Speaker 2>factions for being pitted against each other, and you can

0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:20.040
<v Speaker 2>kind of cut the tension with it nice.

0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:23.240
<v Speaker 1>And there was one incident in particular that kind of

0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:25.200
<v Speaker 1>pushed the whole thing over the edge.

0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:30.040
<v Speaker 2>They came up with this berclosis test and apparently had

0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:34.119
<v Speaker 2>an alcoholic ssson called Feno that the Muslims are stringously

0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:37.679
<v Speaker 2>objected to, and the warden Tate gave him also amazing,

0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.159
<v Speaker 2>you either take the tests or we're going to make

0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:40.760
<v Speaker 2>you take it.

0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:41.280
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:43.520
<v Speaker 2>They took advantage of the two days that they had

0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.520
<v Speaker 2>been given to formulate this plan, you know, April eleventh

0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:47.440
<v Speaker 2>they carried it out.

0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:51.000
<v Speaker 1>So April eleventh, nineteen ninety three was Easter Sunday and

0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:55.600
<v Speaker 1>Warden Tate planned unforcibly injecting the Sunni Muslim population on Monday,

0:19:55.640 --> 0:20:00.600
<v Speaker 1>April twelfth. So the Sunies devised a plan control of

0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.880
<v Speaker 1>an entire cell block by taking advantage of the skeleton

0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:06.000
<v Speaker 1>crew that worked on the holidays. When the staff of

0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:08.560
<v Speaker 1>prison guards would go from around one hundred and thirty

0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.879
<v Speaker 1>strong down to only eighty. Now to give you a

0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:15.320
<v Speaker 1>lay of the land, Lucasville Prison sprawled out in four

0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:19.400
<v Speaker 1>directions like a wheel with four spokes. One spoken compass, maintenance,

0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:23.040
<v Speaker 1>the hospital and dining hall. Walking from there toward the center,

0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:26.480
<v Speaker 1>you'd meet up with the other three spokes. J Block

0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.440
<v Speaker 1>to the right, Kate to the left, and L block

0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.480
<v Speaker 1>straight ahead. Now, K and L both consisted of a

0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:34.840
<v Speaker 1>long hallway with a jim at the end and eight

0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:38.399
<v Speaker 1>wings to the sides, L one, L two, and so on.

0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:42.800
<v Speaker 1>Keith lived in L six. It was about three pm

0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:44.920
<v Speaker 1>when Keith and the other prisoners were in the yard

0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:48.000
<v Speaker 1>between K and L block when the Sunni Muslims saw

0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:49.800
<v Speaker 1>their chance and struck.

0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:53.520
<v Speaker 2>Recreation was just about to end. They called over to

0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:57.000
<v Speaker 2>intercomm ten minute warning for everybody to start lining up

0:20:57.080 --> 0:20:59.159
<v Speaker 2>to come back inside the prison. And while we were

0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:02.040
<v Speaker 2>standing in line, and a guard ran out with blood

0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.040
<v Speaker 2>streaming down his space, and he was followed by masks

0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:07.720
<v Speaker 2>and make caring the night stick and saying we're taking over,

0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:10.280
<v Speaker 2>We're taking over. You know, I'll never forget it. It

0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:13.440
<v Speaker 2>was so real because you immediately know Oh shit, this

0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.639
<v Speaker 2>is serious. You know whoever this person is with this

0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:19.480
<v Speaker 2>mask and they gonna kill him because you can't see

0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:22.760
<v Speaker 2>insign You don't know that it's the whole semi Muslim organization.

0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:25.720
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know that's then earned sidewalk and it was

0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:29.720
<v Speaker 2>just around thirty minutes or so that took over the

0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:30.720
<v Speaker 2>whole L side of.

0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:34.359
<v Speaker 1>The prison and they later barricaded themselves into L Block

0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:36.680
<v Speaker 1>and held it for eleven days. But at this point

0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:39.000
<v Speaker 1>Keith was still out on the yard and had no

0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:41.800
<v Speaker 1>idea what was going on or what was to come.

0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:45.440
<v Speaker 2>News started to circle out that they were, you know,

0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:49.080
<v Speaker 2>ramsacking the cells and everything. What was actually happened, They

0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:52.800
<v Speaker 2>was going from sale to sale, accumulating food, telling people

0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:55.199
<v Speaker 2>that they had to donate whatever food stuff that they

0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:59.080
<v Speaker 2>had so they can administer it during the ensuing days.

0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:02.200
<v Speaker 2>That reached us on the yard was that they was

0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.040
<v Speaker 2>robbing the seals, and so I wanted to go in

0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:07.480
<v Speaker 2>and secure my property. But I didn't know it was

0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:09.720
<v Speaker 2>a life of death situation. I thought it was just

0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:12.399
<v Speaker 2>a situation where some guys that got a hold of

0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:15.359
<v Speaker 2>some keys and non sales were being rummish through and

0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:18.920
<v Speaker 2>so it was with that misinformation that I, I guess

0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:21.600
<v Speaker 2>my better judgment, decided to go inside and check on

0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:22.840
<v Speaker 2>my personal belongings.

0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:26.480
<v Speaker 1>And this decision to go inside L block was how

0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:31.840
<v Speaker 1>eventually Keith's name got dragged into what happened on L sex.

0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:34.720
<v Speaker 2>When I went in, I kind of immediately understood that,

0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:38.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, this is something more involved than just one

0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:42.240
<v Speaker 2>prisoner attacking the guard, because they were breaking windows, fire

0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:45.480
<v Speaker 2>alarms was going off. I mean, it was pandemonium, and

0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:47.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, I made my way to my I signed

0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:51.879
<v Speaker 2>the sale block L six, and contrast to the chaos

0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:54.159
<v Speaker 2>that was going on in the corridors, it was very

0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:57.159
<v Speaker 2>very quiet. You know, guards were already locked into the

0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:00.680
<v Speaker 2>shower stalls, and there was different prisoners inside of the

0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:04.359
<v Speaker 2>seals who I later learned were hostages, but I didn't

0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:06.280
<v Speaker 2>know that at the time I came in, and not

0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:08.399
<v Speaker 2>really understand I ran down to my sale and there

0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:11.240
<v Speaker 2>was a person inside of my cell, and so instinctively

0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:14.320
<v Speaker 2>I ran up to the control panel trying to unlock

0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:16.000
<v Speaker 2>my door so I can get this person out of

0:23:16.080 --> 0:23:18.720
<v Speaker 2>my cell, because as far as I was serned, that confirmed,

0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:21.439
<v Speaker 2>but I already kind of figured that somebody was rifling

0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:24.320
<v Speaker 2>through my things, but you know he was a hostage.

0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:26.280
<v Speaker 2>I went up to the control panel and was turning

0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:29.720
<v Speaker 2>the knobs randomly, you know, not really understanding how to

0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:33.199
<v Speaker 2>work the panel, and opened up a few other doors invertedly,

0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:36.040
<v Speaker 2>and you know that alerted to someding Mostlims who were

0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:38.280
<v Speaker 2>inside the part, and they accostant me and told me,

0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:40.680
<v Speaker 2>you know know on certain terms that you know this

0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:43.080
<v Speaker 2>is what's going on. You the Willers, or you get

0:23:43.119 --> 0:23:45.160
<v Speaker 2>the fuck out of here. And you know, I chose

0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:47.680
<v Speaker 2>to leave. I left and came back out into the yard.

0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:50.879
<v Speaker 1>Keith was ultimately accused of killing four men during his

0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:53.920
<v Speaker 1>short trip inside of all block. The hostages being held

0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:57.119
<v Speaker 1>on L six who, according to the state, or snitches.

0:23:57.520 --> 0:23:59.399
<v Speaker 1>At this point, I want to bring in one of

0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:02.160
<v Speaker 1>the attorneys representing Keith. He's an associate at Bell doc

0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:06.080
<v Speaker 1>Lebine and Hoffman. Keegan Stephan. Welcome to the show. Thank

0:24:06.160 --> 0:24:08.560
<v Speaker 1>you so, Keegan. The state's narrative of what happened on

0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:12.920
<v Speaker 1>that awful easter Sunday in nineteen ninety three obviously diverges

0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:15.920
<v Speaker 1>from Keith's version of events, but let's start with where

0:24:15.960 --> 0:24:16.560
<v Speaker 1>they are the same.

0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:19.560
<v Speaker 3>You know, Keith was not in L six when the

0:24:19.680 --> 0:24:24.479
<v Speaker 3>riot started, even by the states theory and narrative of events. Second,

0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:28.399
<v Speaker 3>you know, this riot was very deliberately planned by a

0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:30.680
<v Speaker 3>group of people that Keith was not a part of.

0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:33.480
<v Speaker 3>And again the state concedes that, which seems like a

0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:34.920
<v Speaker 3>very important point.

0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:38.200
<v Speaker 1>Right, But now the state disagrees with what we've already

0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:38.920
<v Speaker 1>heard from Keith.

0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:42.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so that's where their story is diverge. Keith goes

0:24:42.560 --> 0:24:45.040
<v Speaker 3>in to get his belongings and leaves. That is what

0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:48.360
<v Speaker 3>numerous alibi witnesses say. The state says that he goes

0:24:48.440 --> 0:24:52.240
<v Speaker 3>in and then forms a death squad and executes the

0:24:52.880 --> 0:24:54.840
<v Speaker 3>people that have been locked in their cells.

0:24:55.400 --> 0:24:58.000
<v Speaker 1>And this death squad was allegedly made up of Keith

0:24:58.080 --> 0:25:01.600
<v Speaker 1>and four or five others who brutally four alleged snitches

0:25:01.640 --> 0:25:04.760
<v Speaker 1>that were being held hostage on L six, Darryl Depina,

0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:09.960
<v Speaker 1>Albert Steano, William Spetty, and Bruce Vitali. But what did

0:25:10.040 --> 0:25:12.440
<v Speaker 1>they say was Keith's motivation for this?

0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:15.720
<v Speaker 3>The state says that it's effectively a bargaining chip that

0:25:15.960 --> 0:25:20.840
<v Speaker 3>if he forms this death squad and executes these alleged snitches,

0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:23.840
<v Speaker 3>then he can get out of L six. He can leave.

0:25:24.320 --> 0:25:27.879
<v Speaker 3>You know, people who staged the uprising have said that

0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:30.520
<v Speaker 3>Keith would not have had that power, that they wouldn't

0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:32.440
<v Speaker 3>have let that happen, that this wouldn't have been a

0:25:32.480 --> 0:25:35.680
<v Speaker 3>bargaining chip to let people leave. So it's inconsistent with

0:25:35.800 --> 0:25:37.800
<v Speaker 3>what was going on in the prison, and it's inconsistent

0:25:37.880 --> 0:25:41.320
<v Speaker 3>with what Keith was doing. It's inconsistent with numerous alibi witnesses.

0:25:41.720 --> 0:25:44.320
<v Speaker 3>It's only consistent with the stories of the people who

0:25:44.400 --> 0:25:48.080
<v Speaker 3>testified against Keith, who were obviously highly motivated to testify

0:25:48.440 --> 0:25:49.040
<v Speaker 3>in that manner.

0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:51.600
<v Speaker 1>And later on we'll get into the testimonies of those

0:25:51.640 --> 0:25:56.640
<v Speaker 1>receiving either leniency, shorter sentences, immunity, a transfer, or most

0:25:56.720 --> 0:25:59.840
<v Speaker 1>of the above. But first let's get back to this

0:26:00.080 --> 0:26:02.680
<v Speaker 1>story from Keith's perspective, from when he returned to the

0:26:02.840 --> 0:26:06.880
<v Speaker 1>yard and the prison was in full crisis and chaos mode.

0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:11.679
<v Speaker 2>I mean, helicopters were flying up above over the prison.

0:26:11.960 --> 0:26:15.119
<v Speaker 2>And then gradually the National Guards showed up, the Ohio

0:26:15.280 --> 0:26:18.560
<v Speaker 2>State Patrol showed up, and they took up stands around

0:26:18.800 --> 0:26:22.240
<v Speaker 2>outside the perimeter fence, had they you know, machine guns

0:26:22.320 --> 0:26:26.280
<v Speaker 2>out and riot here, the riot helmets and everything, and

0:26:26.400 --> 0:26:29.160
<v Speaker 2>so we're thinking this is the amount of time before

0:26:29.200 --> 0:26:32.399
<v Speaker 2>they regained order, and an hour go by, two hours

0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:35.520
<v Speaker 2>to go by, and then the body started coming out.

0:26:35.960 --> 0:26:38.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, a group of mass inmates would come out

0:26:38.080 --> 0:26:40.159
<v Speaker 2>of the building, waved and what it does like to

0:26:40.240 --> 0:26:43.919
<v Speaker 2>be ad a machete and it was surreal. Then they

0:26:43.920 --> 0:26:46.680
<v Speaker 2>had the body on the yard ten fifteen minutes to

0:26:46.720 --> 0:26:51.160
<v Speaker 2>go by, and someone for an administration medica whatever come

0:26:51.240 --> 0:26:53.359
<v Speaker 2>and retreew the body and take it back through the

0:26:53.480 --> 0:26:56.480
<v Speaker 2>k side area thirty minutes to go by. Another body,

0:26:57.800 --> 0:27:03.800
<v Speaker 2>then another body the body. Then they started getting dark outside,

0:27:03.960 --> 0:27:07.920
<v Speaker 2>started getting cold, and then eventually got started setting bombs fires,

0:27:08.400 --> 0:27:10.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, out from the wood from the boxing rings.

0:27:10.200 --> 0:27:11.920
<v Speaker 2>And you had to understand, you know, the boxing rink

0:27:12.080 --> 0:27:14.399
<v Speaker 2>was my thanks Agarently this was the place where I

0:27:14.480 --> 0:27:16.280
<v Speaker 2>went to to kind of you know, make peace with

0:27:16.440 --> 0:27:19.760
<v Speaker 2>all the bullshit that I've been throughing my life. You know,

0:27:20.000 --> 0:27:22.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm tearing a waxing ring up, trying to get full

0:27:22.800 --> 0:27:25.280
<v Speaker 2>so I can start a fire because it's chilly April

0:27:25.359 --> 0:27:29.040
<v Speaker 2>for the silly at nighttime. So if we're standing around

0:27:29.119 --> 0:27:32.719
<v Speaker 2>the fires and everything and all, why this is happening.

0:27:32.880 --> 0:27:36.920
<v Speaker 2>The highway controls and National Guards is standing there watching by.

0:27:37.040 --> 0:27:39.560
<v Speaker 2>Now I don't know, five or six bodies have been

0:27:39.720 --> 0:27:42.560
<v Speaker 2>brought out to the yard, most of them dead. The

0:27:42.680 --> 0:27:44.960
<v Speaker 2>people whose job it is to stop me from being

0:27:45.040 --> 0:27:47.440
<v Speaker 2>one of those dead bodies are standing on the outside

0:27:47.480 --> 0:27:50.440
<v Speaker 2>of the fence. And it's inaveud that you take in

0:27:50.560 --> 0:27:53.119
<v Speaker 2>the notion that shit one of these bodies could be mine.

0:28:10.240 --> 0:28:12.280
<v Speaker 2>Around three o'clock in the morning, how a waste state

0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:16.320
<v Speaker 2>patrol came out gun strong and ordered all of us

0:28:16.359 --> 0:28:19.280
<v Speaker 2>to line up to indicase had gymnasium. And once we

0:28:19.359 --> 0:28:22.280
<v Speaker 2>got inside of there, they stripped all of us naked,

0:28:22.720 --> 0:28:24.800
<v Speaker 2>took all our clothes and made us sit down in

0:28:24.880 --> 0:28:28.000
<v Speaker 2>the middle of over the gymnasium floor, about four hundred

0:28:28.040 --> 0:28:30.560
<v Speaker 2>people or so. And we stayed there like that and

0:28:30.760 --> 0:28:36.240
<v Speaker 2>in total start nakedness four hours the same life. Eventually

0:28:36.359 --> 0:28:39.720
<v Speaker 2>they started taking this random groups of teen and escorting

0:28:39.800 --> 0:28:42.200
<v Speaker 2>us to these singleman's sales, and they put ten neked

0:28:42.320 --> 0:28:45.840
<v Speaker 2>individuals in these cells the size of a closet. My

0:28:46.000 --> 0:28:48.640
<v Speaker 2>recollection is right, I'm in K two thirty six or

0:28:48.760 --> 0:28:50.360
<v Speaker 2>nine other megan individuals.

0:28:50.840 --> 0:28:54.840
<v Speaker 3>And in that cell the fifth murder happened. And the

0:28:55.400 --> 0:28:58.200
<v Speaker 3>state says that Keith's ordered at the murder. You know,

0:28:58.360 --> 0:29:01.040
<v Speaker 3>Keith says that there was a confrontation and that he

0:29:01.120 --> 0:29:01.800
<v Speaker 3>had nothing to do.

0:29:01.920 --> 0:29:04.800
<v Speaker 2>With it when they finally came around and gave us jumpsuits,

0:29:04.800 --> 0:29:07.280
<v Speaker 2>and that long after that threw sandwiches in the sale,

0:29:07.320 --> 0:29:09.480
<v Speaker 2>which is the first time Minihim has that eating since

0:29:09.520 --> 0:29:12.600
<v Speaker 2>the whole old deal started. There was like a feeding frenzy.

0:29:12.800 --> 0:29:15.920
<v Speaker 2>Some guys took more than his share. And Dennis Weaver,

0:29:16.120 --> 0:29:18.280
<v Speaker 2>he was one of the older prisoners in the cell,

0:29:18.800 --> 0:29:21.760
<v Speaker 2>and he, you know, held onto his dignity to his

0:29:21.920 --> 0:29:26.400
<v Speaker 2>credit and was hues the candra joined afraid. He made

0:29:26.440 --> 0:29:28.960
<v Speaker 2>the mistake of saying something about it to this guy,

0:29:29.080 --> 0:29:33.640
<v Speaker 2>William Bowland, guy named Sabbat, and Sebas and Dinners got

0:29:33.680 --> 0:29:37.080
<v Speaker 2>into altercation. Sebas put him in a choke hold, and

0:29:37.280 --> 0:29:40.080
<v Speaker 2>these two other prisoners held his feet down, you know,

0:29:40.200 --> 0:29:43.440
<v Speaker 2>because he was struggling trying to free himself. And when

0:29:43.480 --> 0:29:46.720
<v Speaker 2>the authorities came to remove Dinners from the cell and

0:29:46.880 --> 0:29:49.320
<v Speaker 2>tried to question us, I along with most of the

0:29:49.360 --> 0:29:52.000
<v Speaker 2>guys in the celle, said that we were asleep, which

0:29:52.120 --> 0:29:54.160
<v Speaker 2>was our way saying that we didn't want to be involved,

0:29:54.160 --> 0:29:56.720
<v Speaker 2>because that's one of the things you learned in prison

0:29:56.840 --> 0:30:00.680
<v Speaker 2>to avoid violence by minding your own busines this and

0:30:00.760 --> 0:30:03.240
<v Speaker 2>we don't know at the time that why not saying anything,

0:30:03.360 --> 0:30:06.280
<v Speaker 2>we allowed the guy who actually committed the murder to

0:30:06.440 --> 0:30:09.000
<v Speaker 2>shift the blame. You know, he said he was forced

0:30:09.040 --> 0:30:12.280
<v Speaker 2>to kill Dennis by me and several other individuals.

0:30:12.600 --> 0:30:15.600
<v Speaker 3>You know, it's a pretty wild leap to go from

0:30:15.720 --> 0:30:18.760
<v Speaker 3>someone not telling you the complete truth, from someone saying

0:30:18.800 --> 0:30:21.400
<v Speaker 3>that they were asleep, to saying that they ordered a murder.

0:30:22.400 --> 0:30:26.880
<v Speaker 1>It's also obviously hard or impossible to order a murder

0:30:26.920 --> 0:30:28.760
<v Speaker 1>when you don't have a weapon or the cloud of

0:30:28.800 --> 0:30:31.000
<v Speaker 1>a prison gang behind you. But that's what the state

0:30:31.080 --> 0:30:33.640
<v Speaker 1>and its cooperators ended up saying Keith did. Once the

0:30:33.800 --> 0:30:37.000
<v Speaker 1>riot thus settled and many rounds of interviews began, But

0:30:37.120 --> 0:30:39.640
<v Speaker 1>that didn't start until Wednesday, April twenty first, and Dennis

0:30:39.680 --> 0:30:42.160
<v Speaker 1>Weaver's body had only joined the others from L Block

0:30:42.200 --> 0:30:44.840
<v Speaker 1>on the second day of the Lucasville riot April twelfth,

0:30:44.920 --> 0:30:48.080
<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety three. At this point, the instigators of the

0:30:48.160 --> 0:30:50.800
<v Speaker 1>riot were barricaded into L Block, armed with the prison's

0:30:50.840 --> 0:30:55.360
<v Speaker 1>hostage negotiation handbook and eight hostages, making demands while anticipating

0:30:55.400 --> 0:30:59.320
<v Speaker 1>the authority's moves. On Wednesday, April fourteenth, a sheet was

0:30:59.400 --> 0:31:02.360
<v Speaker 1>hung from a window threatening the death of a hostage

0:31:02.400 --> 0:31:07.240
<v Speaker 1>if their demands were not met. Among those demands were food, water, electricity,

0:31:07.520 --> 0:31:10.640
<v Speaker 1>access to the news media, a stipulation regarding any future

0:31:10.720 --> 0:31:14.240
<v Speaker 1>medical testing, the hiring of more blackguards, the relaxation of

0:31:14.320 --> 0:31:17.400
<v Speaker 1>day to day restrictions, and various quality of life improvements,

0:31:17.520 --> 0:31:20.960
<v Speaker 1>as well as the removal of Arthur Tate. Now. Early

0:31:21.280 --> 0:31:24.719
<v Speaker 1>Thursday morning, April fifteenth, the body of one of the hostages,

0:31:25.080 --> 0:31:28.560
<v Speaker 1>forty year old prison guard Robert Fulandingham, was produced from

0:31:28.720 --> 0:31:33.600
<v Speaker 1>L Block. He had been strangled to death. The negotiations continued,

0:31:33.920 --> 0:31:37.200
<v Speaker 1>a few hostages were released, and finally, on Wednesday, April

0:31:37.240 --> 0:31:39.960
<v Speaker 1>twenty first, a list of twenty one demands were met

0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:44.760
<v Speaker 1>to solidify the surrender of L Block. These included that

0:31:45.080 --> 0:31:48.280
<v Speaker 1>news media and religious leaders would witness the surrender, that

0:31:48.360 --> 0:31:50.880
<v Speaker 1>there would be no retaliation on any inmate or group

0:31:50.920 --> 0:31:54.160
<v Speaker 1>of inmates, and that discipline or criminal proceedings would be

0:31:54.240 --> 0:31:57.520
<v Speaker 1>carried out fairly and impartially. In the end, ten men

0:31:57.600 --> 0:32:02.000
<v Speaker 1>had died, earl Elder Franklin Farrell, Bruce Harris, David Summers,

0:32:02.360 --> 0:32:07.640
<v Speaker 1>Darryl de Pino, Bruce Vittali, Albert Seiano, William Sveetti, Dennis Weaver,

0:32:07.920 --> 0:32:10.720
<v Speaker 1>and of course the prison guard Robert for Landingham.

0:32:11.280 --> 0:32:15.360
<v Speaker 2>And so the guard's murder is really drove the prosecution.

0:32:15.800 --> 0:32:20.560
<v Speaker 2>The riot was desided over awesomeately by the Black Against Disciples,

0:32:20.680 --> 0:32:24.760
<v Speaker 2>the Sonny Muslims in the Brotherhood. The goal was to

0:32:24.840 --> 0:32:28.200
<v Speaker 2>put their leadership on death row. Well, Aaron brother here

0:32:28.320 --> 0:32:31.040
<v Speaker 2>is represented on death row. The Sunny Muslims I represented

0:32:31.120 --> 0:32:32.960
<v Speaker 2>here on death row. The only people who are not

0:32:33.080 --> 0:32:36.720
<v Speaker 2>represented here on death row in some Black Anster Disciples.

0:32:37.080 --> 0:32:39.320
<v Speaker 2>Guess where there they were at now walk in the

0:32:39.400 --> 0:32:43.320
<v Speaker 2>street because they testified against the leadership of these other games.

0:32:43.440 --> 0:32:46.400
<v Speaker 2>And I'm the fill in for the Black Anst Disciples.

0:32:46.720 --> 0:32:48.920
<v Speaker 2>Never been in the game, but I had a prior

0:32:49.040 --> 0:32:52.360
<v Speaker 2>record for murder. I was inside of the L six

0:32:52.520 --> 0:32:54.960
<v Speaker 2>pod when I came in for that brief time. I

0:32:55.040 --> 0:32:58.080
<v Speaker 2>wasn't wearing a mask. People identified me, said Keith and

0:32:58.120 --> 0:33:01.320
<v Speaker 2>Marbs inside the pot. They pulled my record. Recently when

0:33:01.360 --> 0:33:03.920
<v Speaker 2>we did for your request, we found out that the

0:33:04.240 --> 0:33:07.400
<v Speaker 2>prosecutor had written his name on my flow like this

0:33:07.600 --> 0:33:10.880
<v Speaker 2>is significant. This is somebody who we can use. I

0:33:11.000 --> 0:33:14.280
<v Speaker 2>was dropped out of school in fifth grade, shoplifting when

0:33:14.320 --> 0:33:17.880
<v Speaker 2>I was thirteen, fourteen years old, seven weed, and these

0:33:17.960 --> 0:33:19.920
<v Speaker 2>are the things that the state tried to use the

0:33:20.000 --> 0:33:22.200
<v Speaker 2>celeris to get me to cop out of crimes that

0:33:22.280 --> 0:33:22.800
<v Speaker 2>didn't admit.

0:33:23.440 --> 0:33:25.560
<v Speaker 1>But the state had to come up with witnesses to

0:33:25.640 --> 0:33:26.840
<v Speaker 1>corroborate this narrative.

0:33:27.280 --> 0:33:30.520
<v Speaker 3>It's remarkable the number of interviews that took place and

0:33:30.680 --> 0:33:34.320
<v Speaker 3>the number of times the same incarcerated people were interviewed,

0:33:34.720 --> 0:33:37.959
<v Speaker 3>and how much their stories changed. Most of them did

0:33:38.080 --> 0:33:41.480
<v Speaker 3>not identify Keith in their early interviews and even affirmatively

0:33:41.520 --> 0:33:44.000
<v Speaker 3>said that Keith was not involved. And then at a

0:33:44.080 --> 0:33:47.360
<v Speaker 3>certain point in that arc of giving statements, they all

0:33:47.400 --> 0:33:50.920
<v Speaker 3>started identifying Keith. Something shifted there and he became a

0:33:51.000 --> 0:33:55.120
<v Speaker 3>very easy scapegoat. He was already facing a sentence that maxed.

0:33:54.840 --> 0:33:55.400
<v Speaker 1>Out at life.

0:33:55.640 --> 0:33:58.080
<v Speaker 3>Everybody sort of thought he would take the plea But

0:33:58.240 --> 0:34:00.840
<v Speaker 3>as everyone who's talked to Keith knows, here a remarkable

0:34:00.920 --> 0:34:03.560
<v Speaker 3>individual of the utmost principles, and he was not going

0:34:03.640 --> 0:34:05.800
<v Speaker 3>to plead guilty to a bunch of murders. He did

0:34:05.880 --> 0:34:06.280
<v Speaker 3>not commit.

0:34:06.920 --> 0:34:08.359
<v Speaker 2>You know, one of the things that you don't see

0:34:08.400 --> 0:34:11.680
<v Speaker 2>on Law and Order and those different police shows on televisions,

0:34:11.760 --> 0:34:15.399
<v Speaker 2>and you know it's real and formal environment. They call

0:34:15.480 --> 0:34:18.400
<v Speaker 2>you by your first name, and you know, like your

0:34:18.440 --> 0:34:20.880
<v Speaker 2>old buddies like Keith m On, we would pass that

0:34:21.400 --> 0:34:23.279
<v Speaker 2>we're going an agy to come out to this and

0:34:23.440 --> 0:34:26.440
<v Speaker 2>a you mean yourself a favor, Otherwise I'm going to

0:34:26.520 --> 0:34:30.160
<v Speaker 2>put your black ass on death row, cop out to

0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:33.839
<v Speaker 2>murder and running time concurrent with the time you're already doing,

0:34:33.920 --> 0:34:36.480
<v Speaker 2>to be like you're getting off Scott free. I said,

0:34:36.480 --> 0:34:39.120
<v Speaker 2>but I'm innocent, though I'm not getting off Scott free

0:34:39.160 --> 0:34:42.759
<v Speaker 2>when you're talking about prolonger mustay in prison beyond my

0:34:42.880 --> 0:34:44.920
<v Speaker 2>parole day and I haven't done anything.

0:34:46.840 --> 0:34:49.319
<v Speaker 1>You've just heard about how a riot and a rush

0:34:49.400 --> 0:34:52.240
<v Speaker 1>to feed a community's sense of vengeance put Keith Lamar

0:34:52.360 --> 0:34:55.359
<v Speaker 1>in a position where his past was leveraged against him

0:34:55.680 --> 0:34:59.040
<v Speaker 1>in service of those who chose to escape their crimes

0:34:59.360 --> 0:35:02.680
<v Speaker 1>by coopera with the state. Listen to Part two, where

0:35:02.760 --> 0:35:06.120
<v Speaker 1>we'll explore who those individuals were, what they stood to

0:35:06.239 --> 0:35:08.879
<v Speaker 1>gain by Sandy Keith a death row and the sham

0:35:09.000 --> 0:35:11.560
<v Speaker 1>trial that put him there, as well as where we're

0:35:11.640 --> 0:35:14.279
<v Speaker 1>at in his fight for justice and his very life.

0:35:14.840 --> 0:35:16.839
<v Speaker 1>Find and listen to the second half of this very

0:35:16.880 --> 0:35:20.160
<v Speaker 1>important episode available now if you're an Apple Plus subscriber,

0:35:20.440 --> 0:35:22.959
<v Speaker 1>or you can listen next week in the free feed.

0:35:29.040 --> 0:35:31.839
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

0:35:31.880 --> 0:35:34.200
<v Speaker 1>to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

0:35:34.280 --> 0:35:37.200
<v Speaker 1>week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on

0:35:37.320 --> 0:35:41.040
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team Connor Hall,

0:35:41.320 --> 0:35:43.840
<v Speaker 1>Andy Chelsea, and Lyla Robinson, as well as my fellow

0:35:43.880 --> 0:35:47.680
<v Speaker 1>executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Awardis, and Jeff Clibern. The

0:35:47.800 --> 0:35:50.120
<v Speaker 1>music in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR

0:35:50.200 --> 0:35:53.680
<v Speaker 1>nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across

0:35:53.840 --> 0:35:56.719
<v Speaker 1>all social media platforms at Lava for Good and at

0:35:56.800 --> 0:35:59.840
<v Speaker 1>Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram at

0:36:00.080 --> 0:36:03.200
<v Speaker 1>It's Jason Vlahm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava

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<v Speaker 1>for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one