WEBVTT - #300 Guest Host Earlonne Woods with Caramad Conley 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:04.920 I'm Jason Flahman. I'm over the top excited because this 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:07.480 is our three hundredth episode. Listen. I wish we never 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:09.280 had to do any episodes at all, and I wish 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:12.399 that these wrongful convictions weren't even a thing. But we're 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:15.080 going to keep doing them for as long as we 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:19.200 possibly can. Until my last breath, I'll be making these podcasts. 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:21.480 But this is the three hundredth one, and we are 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:25.000 honored and I'm humbled to have as a guest host 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:30.240 for this episode my friend and personal hero, mister Erlon Woods. 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.080 Now Erlon you probably know his name because he's the 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:37.920 guy who created and co hosted the groundbreaking podcast ear Hustle, 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:40.519 which he produced while serving time in San Quentin prison. 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.440 So thank you for your continued support. We still have 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.760 tons more work to do and we hope you'll listen 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:48.800 and get involved. 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.640 Back in the nineteen eighties, Karam Conley was living in 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:59.520 San Francisco, California, that was doing the crack era and 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.080 police was doing everything they could to stump out gang activity. 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.640 On April eight, nineteen eighty nine, there was a drive 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:10.480 by shooting in Karamand's neighborhood. The bullets injury Levin and 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:14.760 killed two Charles Hughes and Roshawn Johnson. Of the eight 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.400 people who were allegedly involved in the crime, only one person, 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:22.920 Paul Green, was convicted and sentenced. The pressure was building 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:26.559 for police to find other perpetrators. About a month before 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:29.280 this crime happened, Kara Mad had got into a fight 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:32.560 with another kid from school and landed Karamid with an 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:35.880 assault charge. So police created a narrative around this fight 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:39.520 that it started a whole series of violent retaliations resulting 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:43.319 in the drive by shooting. Yet police had no evidence 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:46.320 beyond one witness would claim he heard Karamad bragging about 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:49.600 his involvement. Still, Kara Mood would be convicted of two 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:53.360 murders and ten attempted murders. He was sentenced to life 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:59.400 in prison without the possibility of parole. This is wrongful conviction. 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:15.040 I'm Marline Woods and I'm the co host and co 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:18.120 creator of podcast called Ear Hustle, which brings you the 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.280 daily realities of life inside prison shared by those living it. 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:24.519 And we also do stories from the outside post incarceration. 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:29.720 And today I have the pleasure of guest hosting Wrongful Conviction, 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:33.480 and I'm here with a cat named Kramat. Conley and 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.519 Kramat I would like you to introduce yourself to the people. 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:41.919 Hello, everybody, what's up roline? Glad to be here. I'm 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:45.560 excited about talking about the story. My name is Caramut Conley. 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:50.760 I'm from originally Oakland, California, born and raised, raised between 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:52.600 there in San Francisco, California. 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:58.919 So, Caramut, can you describe your life prior to being arrested. 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:01.320 I was born to a fan a nine I have 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:06.680 five brothers, three sisters. Our neighborhood was predominantly African American 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:11.399 working class families. Everybody in the neighborhood knew each other, 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.440 you know, mothers, fathers, you know, it was a great 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:15.640 environment to grow up in. 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:18.840 Cool And let me ask you this. You know you 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:22.920 grew up in San Francisco. How was like law enforcement 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.240 in your neighborhood? You know, did you have any prior 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:29.160 run ins with them or any anything leading up to Nah? 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.760 And that's a great question, right. And it's interesting because 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:34.600 my dad was in the military, so we had already 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:37.360 kind of been in still with that kind of country duty, 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:41.960 honor stuff. But my dream really was to be a 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:45.280 swat officer when I was young, right back in those days, 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.080 they were considered the good guys. And I've always seen 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:49.320 police officers like that. 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:52.960 Did anything derail you from becoming a SWAT officer? 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:58.320 Yeah? Yeah, when I became a teenager. So you have 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:00.680 to tie in what they call the crack era, right, 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:05.720 the drug era that changed everything, That changed our whole community, 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:09.960 That changed our perceptions of like the police. That changed everything. 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:14.440 You started seeing people in our community, in our neighborhoods, 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:18.120 like who started kind of indulging in the selling of it. 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:20.600 So that's when you started seeing like, wow, look at that. 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:22.240 You know, he got a new car. You know, you 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:24.760 start seeing all these different things you've never seen before. 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:28.000 So that's when I started understanding like there was a 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:31.640 shift going on in our society and particularly in our community. 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:35.480 You started seeing, you know, police more at the schools. 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:39.800 You started those kind of interactions. So what we didn't know, 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.680 meaning like the kids in the community, teenagers, was that 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:50.440 the police officers started creating these narratives around our community. 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:55.320 So they started calling them turfs, right, And we definitely 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:57.080 believed that they were trying to take a page out 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.280 of Los Angeles politics, gain politics and stuff and at 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.960 that there and if you from like this area, you 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.320 were part of this turf and then this turf. And 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:11.839 people used to always try to correct these officers and 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:14.480 journalists when they used to use these turns, and people 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:16.200 used to be like, what are y'all talking about? Like 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:17.400 we ain't this ain't no turf. 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.359 So the police are creating this narrative. But did you 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:25.000 identify with any gangs Sunnydale or Bay Point or any 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:25.240 of that. 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:28.760 No, because it wasn't that type of thing. Man, Like, 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:31.080 the only ones that created that narrative that was trying 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:33.320 to put us in that was police officers. 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:35.800 Okay, So I want to move into the story a 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:39.000 little bit. In March nineteen eighty nine, you get into 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:41.440 a fight with a friend from school named Jeff Franklin 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:45.080 over some gossip going around. And then later on that 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:49.080 same day, in an unrelated event, there's this other crime, 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:53.080 a guy named Peter Lee is murdered. The police connect 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:56.560 these two incidents, I guess because they happen on the 0:05:56.600 --> 0:06:00.320 same day or something. So tell me about your first 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:03.360 interaction with the police. How did they connect these two 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:04.160 separate things. 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:08.880 This is where I could introduce Earl Sanders and Napoleon 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:14.160 Hendrix because they were their two African American veteran homicide detectives. 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:17.760 And they were always wearing suits and these like for 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.680 Dora Brims, and they came to my house. They never 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:22.720 called me to come down there. They came to my house. 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.880 And my father was always a straight shooter, and he's like, well, 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:27.679 you know, my son, I know he doesn't have anything 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:29.960 to hide, so he didn't mind them talking to me. 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:34.040 They started asking me about the situation with Jeff, like, 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.920 and I said, yeah, we had an altercation and you know, 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:40.320 we resolved it. We made peace and everything was cool. 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:48.360 And they started alluding to Peter possibly being murdered because 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.599 of the altercation I had with Jeff. Right, this was 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:53.880 their narrative, Like, so I was like, what are you 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:56.720 talking about? So it was like they were trying to 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:01.080 say what you did preceded this. They started asking me 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.680 about all these different people and I'm like, yeah, I 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:07.000 don't know who you talking about. I don't know this person. 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:09.560 I don't know that person. That's when they kind of 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:13.360 formulated this. I don't know. I think they were pissed 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.200 off that I wasn't really helping them. The narrative that 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.600 the police were pushing was that this is all gang related. 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.320 And then about a month later, on April eighth, nineteen 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:26.120 eighty nine, there was a drive by shooting in Bayview 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.800 in your neighborhood. Eleven people were injured and two people 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:35.320 were killed, Charles Hughes and Rosehawn Johnson. And it's really 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.120 a terrible crime. It's sad. But how did you get 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:39.080 wrapped up in all of this? 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.000 There was a lot of pressure on the police to 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.680 solve these crimes. You know, people in the community were 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:47.160 coming out and they were like fed up with this stuff, 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:49.559 and they were you know, now the police are really 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.760 just going crazy, like okay, because now they're saying that 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:58.400 this was retaliation for Peter Lee being killed. So now 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.320 they come back to me again. So they now they 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:04.680 come in with a different energy, like they're threatening me 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:06.680 and all this other kind of stuff. So my pops 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.600 was like, look, I'm not letting him talk to y'all again, 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.080 you know what I mean. So that was it, and uh, 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:14.000 but they were like, look, we're gonna we're gonna come 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.120 back and get him if he doesn't help us, you know, 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:18.640 get you know this, that and the other so but 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.880 in July they came back with a warrant, so they 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:25.280 charged me with that assault and that at that time, 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:27.640 but they had me thinking they were charging me with 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:32.000 murders or whatever. So I'm like, this is why y'all 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:34.280 arrested me. I'm like, well, that was already resolved, but 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:36.480 the district attorney had picked it up. And so what 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.240 I learned later was that because I had no criminal 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:41.199 record I had, I was not even in a system. 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:43.080 I said, this is a way for them to get 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:47.640 me in the system under paperwork, right, So you know, 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:51.840 they booked me, and ultimately I pleaded totally even them. 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:53.679 I told them, yeah, I did it. I did that. 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:55.400 We had an issue and that's what happened, and we 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:57.400 resolved it and I wasn't trying to hide it or 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.000 nothing like that. So that's they end up giving me 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.800 three years probation and I spent like thirty days in 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:05.559 jail in the county or whatever. They gave me three 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:06.280 years probation. 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:11.480 So meanwhile, detective Saunders and Henders with their suits in 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.240 there for door brims. They end up arresting a guy 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.720 named Paul Green for the drive by shooting on April 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:20.280 eighth and during Paul's trial in nineteen ninety two, you 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:21.480 were called to testify. 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:26.200 Yet it wasn't around till ninety two when Paul Green's 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:30.640 trial started that I get a subpoena to his court. 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:33.920 So I get an outside lawyer, Donald Bergerson, who would 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.560 later become my actual attorney, but I get him to 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:40.200 represent me on this subpoena because I'm like, I don't 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:41.600 have nothing to say to these people. 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:45.560 So Paul Green goes on trial, You get subpoena and 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:48.959 hire Donald Bergerson to represent you, and then at some 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:52.400 point you start to realize that there was more to this, 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:54.760 that they were going to try to wrap you up 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.880 in this same crime that April eight drive by shooting 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:01.000 that killed two people. Do you remember remember how you 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:02.199 first heard about that. 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:05.680 The rumblings started coming, Like my lawyers started talking to 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.640 me about, hey, uh, you know, they're talking about this guy, 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:10.720 like they have some evidence against you for this, and 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:14.720 I'm like, what this is. When Clifford Polk enters the picture, 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.079 he was probably four years younger than me, But Clifford 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:20.080 Polk was a guy who was really friends with my 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.760 younger brother that he was friends we met, he was 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:24.720 in high school. He was raised by a single mother, 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:28.160 so we kind of took him in as a younger siblings, 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:30.160 so to speak, because that's how my father was with 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.120 the kids in the neighborhood. He would just you know, 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:34.320 be a father figure to a lot of these kids. 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:37.559 Clifford Pope, now he's a pretty important character in this 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:42.080 story because it's ultimately his evidence that they used to 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.360 convict you. What did he say to the police to 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:45.800 tie you into the crime. 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:49.880 Polk brought in another mutual friend of ours named Batist 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:54.560 Batiste Richardson. He said that Batist loaned me a weapon, 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.040 and then when Batist went to retrieve the weapon back 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:00.319 for me, like hey, let me get that back, Cliff 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:02.520 said that I said to Batist, oh you don't want 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:04.959 that man that got cheap Charlie name written all over. 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:07.600 It, and Chief Charlie, that's Charles Hughes, one of the 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:08.880 people murdered on April eight. 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:11.320 Cliff just made up a lot of stuff. He just 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.040 started making up stuff like I was selling guns out 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.719 of my house and he was just making up stuff, right, 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:20.760 And then they investigated Batist, of course to coroborate what 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:24.080 Cliff said, and of course Batiste was like, what you know, 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:26.840 this is bullshit, Like this did not happen. I don't 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:29.760 know what this dude is talking about. So my attorney 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:31.920 told me they want you to turn yourself in, and 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.440 I said, I've turned myself in for what He's like, 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:36.960 they have a charge against you, like, they have a warrant. 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:41.840 And it was probably two months before they finally came 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.120 to the house while I was there and arrested me. 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.679 Okay, so now we're getting into the trial. The prosecution's 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.480 main argument was the testimony of Clifford Pope. There was 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:55.760 some back and forth between both sides as to whether 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:58.760 Pope was being incentivized by the police to implicate you, 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.240 but Pope said on stand that he wasn't in witness 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.400 protection and he wasn't getting anything in return for his testimony, 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.120 and this is really important and we'll get back to 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:11.640 that later on. So all this is going on, and 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:15.199 you actually decide to testify in your own defense, something 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:19.040 that you rarely see. Why did you decide to testify? 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.680 So one of the primary reasons why I testify is 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:25.960 because one, I didn't do it right, and I wasn't 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:29.280 afraid to get up there, and I knew whatever the 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:34.480 district Attorney was going to say about me, like I 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.760 had already admitted to it, meaning like my prior saw 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.920 it or whatever it was like, So I knew beyond 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:43.400 that anything he tried to allege against me, he would 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:47.000 be just making it up. And I felt like I 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.280 wanted to I wanted to speak my peace, like I 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:51.959 wanted to be able to say no, I didn't do this. 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:54.640 And getting up there, I mean, how did you feel 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.080 about the try? How did you gauge the jury? Did 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:58.840 you think they was? They was listening. 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:02.079 I just figured if they hear this information, they're gonna 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:05.640 side with the truth. So the way that the DA 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.960 spun it though he painted a very effective picture. All 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.600 they see is what's on TV. And it's like, like 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.400 what I want to start. Police are good? If you 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.600 weren't bad, you wouldn't be coming from out of that 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:23.080 holding tank in this orange like you would be coming 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:26.240 from out here, Like it's all those dynamics where I play. 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.400 And going through that, going through that trial, you know, 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:33.040 and I'm gonna speak from personal, but going through a trial, 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:35.280 you don't know what's going on, you don't know the law, 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:38.280 you don't you have no clue on whether it's up 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.000 down whatever. You just sitting there. How long did your 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.880 trial last? And when you was convicted? How did the 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:45.000 words guilty hit you? 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:49.240 Okay, so my trial lasted, I would say, I wouldn't 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:52.520 say it lasted longer than two weeks. They tried to 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:55.960 offer me a deal. So my lawyer came in there 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.480 and he's like, I know this is the part that 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.360 you know, you don't we want to hear about, and 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:03.720 you know, but I have to do this, you know, 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:05.679 like I have to offer you this, and you know, 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.280 jen Enny is talking about a deal here. And I 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.360 said a deal like what they gonna let me go? 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.800 And I don't assume what like? And he's like, well, no, 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:18.960 you know, he said, if you willing to take thirty years, 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:25.040 you know you could. I said, what thirty years like? 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:31.800 So then my lawyer went down to like fifteen years, right, 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.360 and then he went down to like ten and I said, 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.880 I'm not taking a day like, I'm not I'm not 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:43.240 taking a day period. And I told my lawyer, I said, man, 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:49.720 they about to find me not guilty. And we went 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.720 out there and they, you know, the foreman read the 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:54.840 verdict or gave it to the judge and the judge 0:14:54.840 --> 0:15:00.400 said guilty. It was a surprise. It was a It 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:05.320 was kind of surreal. So I just kind of sat 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:10.160 with it, like, Okay, what do we do now. 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:18.240 This episode is sponsored by the AIG pro Bono Program. 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.920 AIG is a leading global insurance company, and the AIG 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.400 pro Bono Program provides free legal services, as well as 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:29.680 other support to many nonprofit organizations as well as individuals 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:33.280 who are most in need, and they recently announced that 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.880 working to reform the criminal justice system will become a 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:39.280 key pillar of the program's mission. 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:52.400 Once that happened, you know, it was just guilty on 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.080 all these charges, right, So you also have your lawyer. 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.320 When you hear your lawyer say your're want to put 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:00.440 this in a record, to appeal this to do so, 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:02.680 that means you have one last chance, which is you 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:04.840 can go in front of the judge and then the 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.560 judge can actually just do the right thing, you know, 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.400 like I'm gonna ow, I don't believe that the burden 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:13.680 of proof was met on the side of the prosecution, 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.880 and that's what I was hoping for. And I really 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:18.720 thought that that was gonna happen. And I spoke to 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:20.920 the judge. You know, I told the judge, I said, listen, 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.560 all I expected was fairness and impartiality, and I haven't 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.360 gotten any of that. So I'm appealing to your fairness 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.720 and your impartiality in this matter. That's what I said 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:33.120 to him. And he gave me all these life sentences. 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:35.560 So what was your What was your sentence? 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.000 So I ended up with twelve life sentences too without parole, 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:40.200 plus twenty six years. 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:43.440 Damn how long? I mean? I know I might be joking, 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:44.920 but shit, how long would it that took you to 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:45.680 do all that time? 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:48.480 Well, and then I would have had to die once, 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:53.720 come back, die again, come back, die ten more times, 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:57.200 come back, and then do twenty six years. That's what 0:16:57.240 --> 0:16:57.760 it meant. 0:16:58.040 --> 0:16:58.160 Like. 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:00.920 The shit didn't make no sense to me. It was 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:03.000 surreal it did. I'm like, you could have just gave 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:05.520 me one life sentence and it would have helped me, 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.800 but it essentially was a death sentence. That's basically what 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:09.239 it was. 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:10.160 Hey. 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:12.000 I used to clawn with one of my partners. He 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:13.960 had two hundred and ten years to life and shit, 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:15.920 onder the three strikes law, and we used to be like, man, 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:19.239 So when you get out Okay, so you you on 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:25.240 your way to prison from the county jail, and you 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.520 know it's a trip. Man. You know, I've always wondered about, 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:31.560 you know, innocent people in prison. You know, I was 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:35.000 pretty much guilty for the my actions, you know what 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:36.840 I'm saying. But I always while I was in prison, 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.080 I used to always wonder, what are innocent individual So 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:41.600 I got to ask, man, what was prison like for 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:42.480 an innocent man? 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:46.280 Man, Look, I watched that movie before I ever went 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:49.359 to prison, before like it was American me and I 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:51.680 watched some other kind of penitential movies, and that shit 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:58.160 was just like scary as fuck. Right, So I was like, god, never, 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:01.399 I never never want to go to prison, right, And 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:03.480 this is before any of that stuff, Like it was 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:07.200 just that environment, that culture, right, and saying Quentin being 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:10.000 the one place, especially back then, because when I went 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.280 to San Quentin, like the inmates were like the counselor 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:15.800 they did all the intake, you know, like it wasn't 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:17.840 you didn't go see a counselor. They did it. They 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:19.760 gave you your CDC number, you. 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:20.200 Know what I mean. 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.560 Your picture looked like you one of them. Alcatraz Island inmates. Like, 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:26.159 so that's what I had. That was my experience. Like 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:29.239 they did a special transfer because I was now like 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:33.600 essentially a death penalty kind of case with them Alwops. 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:37.480 So I didn't have to wait for the prison bus 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.400 and load up. They literally got me out of there 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:43.480 the next day, Like I didn't get a chance to 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:45.639 say bye to nobody, Like as soon as I was 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:47.800 convicted the next day, I was on that butt on 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:49.520 that van on my way to Quinton. 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.399 And what was your mindset like going in with the 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:56.320 alwop sentence, you know, life without the possibility of parole. 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:59.240 It did I didn't. It didn't compute because it didn't 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:02.560 make sense to me, Like I didn't understand what that meant, 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:05.960 Like this is my first time going through something like this, 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:08.360 So I didn't understand that it meant you gonna die 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.040 in prison, You ain't never going to the board. I 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:13.879 didn't understand any of that. I just assume at some 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.960 point somebody gonna get me back, you know, my lawyer 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:21.399 or somebody gonna find something that's And again, we had 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:24.840 an appeal in so you hanging on those hopes like 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:28.440 that your appeal and and uh so I just told 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:32.200 myself immediately, I said, you know what, I'm just gonna 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.439 meet this environment how it meets me. Like, that's what 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:36.120 I'm about to do. 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.679 I have to ask man, like, like, what was what 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:42.520 was like a bad day in prison for you? 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.840 Every day there's not a prison I went to I'm 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.320 talking about. By the time I left prison, I had 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:53.359 been to like ten different and all maximum security prisons 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.680 because of my LWOP everywhere up north to down south 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.000 by the Mexican border in between. Like I've been to 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.119 all of that, and I tell you it was it 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:05.960 was because of the type of sentence I had. It 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:08.760 meant that I was only going to be around what 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.399 they call the most violent kind of inmates, the most 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:14.320 you know, all of that stuff. And uh and it 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.359 and it lived up to every every word of that. 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.480 Like two years after I was in prison, I was 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:23.920 almost murdered in an unprovoked attack by some white supremacists. 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:26.439 It just just real quick. What happened. 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:28.320 Me and a friend of mine was just like walking 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:30.480 the track and and uh it was like these five 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:33.320 five guys, they were Nazi lowriders as they call them 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.600 in LRS back then, and uh, they all had flat 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:40.119 pieces of steel like and two of them came at 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:42.480 my partner, like two of them, three of them came 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:45.920 at me, and uh, thank God, like divine intervention in 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.280 my fighting skills, because I did receive like some puncture wounds, 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:51.119 Like I got about nine puncture wounds out of it 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:53.160 because it was three of them. But uh, they didn't 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:56.080 hit no vital Uh they wasn't able to hit vital 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:58.040 organs because of the fact that I was fighting back 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:01.679 and the guard were shooting and stuff like that. And 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:05.840 in turn, you know that that put me in like 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:08.639 a war mode mind, like when your security is breached 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:11.560 like that, Like it's like what happened when I was 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:14.359 on the streets, Like my perception changed from that point. 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:16.399 So so it's safe to say you've seen a lot 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:20.920