1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flahman. I'm over the top excited because this 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: is our three hundredth episode. Listen. I wish we never 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: had to do any episodes at all, and I wish 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,399 Speaker 1: that these wrongful convictions weren't even a thing. But we're 5 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: going to keep doing them for as long as we 6 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: possibly can. Until my last breath, I'll be making these podcasts. 7 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: But this is the three hundredth one, and we are 8 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: honored and I'm humbled to have as a guest host 9 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: for this episode my friend and personal hero, mister Erlon Woods. 10 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: Now Erlon you probably know his name because he's the 11 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: guy who created and co hosted the groundbreaking podcast ear Hustle, 12 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: which he produced while serving time in San Quentin prison. 13 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: So thank you for your continued support. We still have 14 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: tons more work to do and we hope you'll listen 15 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: and get involved. 16 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 2: Back in the nineteen eighties, Karam Conley was living in 17 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: San Francisco, California, that was doing the crack era and 18 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 2: police was doing everything they could to stump out gang activity. 19 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 2: On April eight, nineteen eighty nine, there was a drive 20 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 2: by shooting in Karamand's neighborhood. The bullets injury Levin and 21 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 2: killed two Charles Hughes and Roshawn Johnson. Of the eight 22 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 2: people who were allegedly involved in the crime, only one person, 23 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 2: Paul Green, was convicted and sentenced. The pressure was building 24 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,559 Speaker 2: for police to find other perpetrators. About a month before 25 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 2: this crime happened, Kara Mad had got into a fight 26 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 2: with another kid from school and landed Karamid with an 27 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: assault charge. So police created a narrative around this fight 28 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 2: that it started a whole series of violent retaliations resulting 29 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 2: in the drive by shooting. Yet police had no evidence 30 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 2: beyond one witness would claim he heard Karamad bragging about 31 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 2: his involvement. Still, Kara Mood would be convicted of two 32 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: murders and ten attempted murders. He was sentenced to life 33 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 2: in prison without the possibility of parole. This is wrongful conviction. 34 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 2: I'm Marline Woods and I'm the co host and co 35 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 2: creator of podcast called Ear Hustle, which brings you the 36 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: daily realities of life inside prison shared by those living it. 37 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 2: And we also do stories from the outside post incarceration. 38 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 2: And today I have the pleasure of guest hosting Wrongful Conviction, 39 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 2: and I'm here with a cat named Kramat. Conley and 40 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 2: Kramat I would like you to introduce yourself to the people. 41 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 3: Hello, everybody, what's up roline? Glad to be here. I'm 42 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 3: excited about talking about the story. My name is Caramut Conley. 43 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 3: I'm from originally Oakland, California, born and raised, raised between 44 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 3: there in San Francisco, California. 45 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 2: So, Caramut, can you describe your life prior to being arrested. 46 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 3: I was born to a fan a nine I have 47 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 3: five brothers, three sisters. Our neighborhood was predominantly African American 48 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:11,399 Speaker 3: working class families. Everybody in the neighborhood knew each other, 49 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 3: you know, mothers, fathers, you know, it was a great 50 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 3: environment to grow up in. 51 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 2: Cool And let me ask you this. You know you 52 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 2: grew up in San Francisco. How was like law enforcement 53 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 2: in your neighborhood? You know, did you have any prior 54 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: run ins with them or any anything leading up to Nah? 55 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 3: And that's a great question, right. And it's interesting because 56 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 3: my dad was in the military, so we had already 57 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 3: kind of been in still with that kind of country duty, 58 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 3: honor stuff. But my dream really was to be a 59 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 3: swat officer when I was young, right back in those days, 60 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 3: they were considered the good guys. And I've always seen 61 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 3: police officers like that. 62 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: Did anything derail you from becoming a SWAT officer? 63 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, when I became a teenager. So you have 64 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 3: to tie in what they call the crack era, right, 65 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 3: the drug era that changed everything, That changed our whole community, 66 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 3: That changed our perceptions of like the police. That changed everything. 67 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 3: You started seeing people in our community, in our neighborhoods, 68 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 3: like who started kind of indulging in the selling of it. 69 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 3: So that's when you started seeing like, wow, look at that. 70 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 3: You know, he got a new car. You know, you 71 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 3: start seeing all these different things you've never seen before. 72 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 3: So that's when I started understanding like there was a 73 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 3: shift going on in our society and particularly in our community. 74 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 3: You started seeing, you know, police more at the schools. 75 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 3: You started those kind of interactions. So what we didn't know, 76 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 3: meaning like the kids in the community, teenagers, was that 77 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 3: the police officers started creating these narratives around our community. 78 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 3: So they started calling them turfs, right, And we definitely 79 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 3: believed that they were trying to take a page out 80 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 3: of Los Angeles politics, gain politics and stuff and at 81 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 3: that there and if you from like this area, you 82 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 3: were part of this turf and then this turf. And 83 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 3: people used to always try to correct these officers and 84 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 3: journalists when they used to use these turns, and people 85 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 3: used to be like, what are y'all talking about? Like 86 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 3: we ain't this ain't no turf. 87 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 2: So the police are creating this narrative. But did you 88 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 2: identify with any gangs Sunnydale or Bay Point or any 89 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: of that. 90 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 3: No, because it wasn't that type of thing. Man, Like, 91 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 3: the only ones that created that narrative that was trying 92 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 3: to put us in that was police officers. 93 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: Okay, So I want to move into the story a 94 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 2: little bit. In March nineteen eighty nine, you get into 95 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 2: a fight with a friend from school named Jeff Franklin 96 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: over some gossip going around. And then later on that 97 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: same day, in an unrelated event, there's this other crime, 98 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 2: a guy named Peter Lee is murdered. The police connect 99 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 2: these two incidents, I guess because they happen on the 100 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 2: same day or something. So tell me about your first 101 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 2: interaction with the police. How did they connect these two 102 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 2: separate things. 103 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 3: This is where I could introduce Earl Sanders and Napoleon 104 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 3: Hendrix because they were their two African American veteran homicide detectives. 105 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 3: And they were always wearing suits and these like for 106 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 3: Dora Brims, and they came to my house. They never 107 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 3: called me to come down there. They came to my house. 108 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 3: And my father was always a straight shooter, and he's like, well, 109 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:27,679 Speaker 3: you know, my son, I know he doesn't have anything 110 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 3: to hide, so he didn't mind them talking to me. 111 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 3: They started asking me about the situation with Jeff, like, 112 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 3: and I said, yeah, we had an altercation and you know, 113 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 3: we resolved it. We made peace and everything was cool. 114 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 3: And they started alluding to Peter possibly being murdered because 115 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 3: of the altercation I had with Jeff. Right, this was 116 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 3: their narrative, Like, so I was like, what are you 117 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 3: talking about? So it was like they were trying to 118 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 3: say what you did preceded this. They started asking me 119 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 3: about all these different people and I'm like, yeah, I 120 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 3: don't know who you talking about. I don't know this person. 121 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 3: I don't know that person. That's when they kind of 122 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 3: formulated this. I don't know. I think they were pissed 123 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 3: off that I wasn't really helping them. The narrative that 124 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 3: the police were pushing was that this is all gang related. 125 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 2: And then about a month later, on April eighth, nineteen 126 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 2: eighty nine, there was a drive by shooting in Bayview 127 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 2: in your neighborhood. Eleven people were injured and two people 128 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: were killed, Charles Hughes and Rosehawn Johnson. And it's really 129 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: a terrible crime. It's sad. But how did you get 130 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: wrapped up in all of this? 131 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 3: There was a lot of pressure on the police to 132 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 3: solve these crimes. You know, people in the community were 133 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 3: coming out and they were like fed up with this stuff, 134 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,559 Speaker 3: and they were you know, now the police are really 135 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 3: just going crazy, like okay, because now they're saying that 136 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 3: this was retaliation for Peter Lee being killed. So now 137 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 3: they come back to me again. So they now they 138 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 3: come in with a different energy, like they're threatening me 139 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 3: and all this other kind of stuff. So my pops 140 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 3: was like, look, I'm not letting him talk to y'all again, 141 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 3: you know what I mean. So that was it, and uh, 142 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 3: but they were like, look, we're gonna we're gonna come 143 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 3: back and get him if he doesn't help us, you know, 144 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 3: get you know this, that and the other so but 145 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 3: in July they came back with a warrant, so they 146 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 3: charged me with that assault and that at that time, 147 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 3: but they had me thinking they were charging me with 148 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 3: murders or whatever. So I'm like, this is why y'all 149 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 3: arrested me. I'm like, well, that was already resolved, but 150 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 3: the district attorney had picked it up. And so what 151 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 3: I learned later was that because I had no criminal 152 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 3: record I had, I was not even in a system. 153 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 3: I said, this is a way for them to get 154 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 3: me in the system under paperwork, right, So you know, 155 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 3: they booked me, and ultimately I pleaded totally even them. 156 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 3: I told them, yeah, I did it. I did that. 157 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 3: We had an issue and that's what happened, and we 158 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 3: resolved it and I wasn't trying to hide it or 159 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 3: nothing like that. So that's they end up giving me 160 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 3: three years probation and I spent like thirty days in 161 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 3: jail in the county or whatever. They gave me three 162 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 3: years probation. 163 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 2: So meanwhile, detective Saunders and Henders with their suits in 164 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 2: there for door brims. They end up arresting a guy 165 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 2: named Paul Green for the drive by shooting on April 166 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: eighth and during Paul's trial in nineteen ninety two, you 167 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 2: were called to testify. 168 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 3: Yet it wasn't around till ninety two when Paul Green's 169 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 3: trial started that I get a subpoena to his court. 170 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 3: So I get an outside lawyer, Donald Bergerson, who would 171 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 3: later become my actual attorney, but I get him to 172 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 3: represent me on this subpoena because I'm like, I don't 173 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 3: have nothing to say to these people. 174 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 2: So Paul Green goes on trial, You get subpoena and 175 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,959 Speaker 2: hire Donald Bergerson to represent you, and then at some 176 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: point you start to realize that there was more to this, 177 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 2: that they were going to try to wrap you up 178 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 2: in this same crime that April eight drive by shooting 179 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: that killed two people. Do you remember remember how you 180 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 2: first heard about that. 181 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 3: The rumblings started coming, Like my lawyers started talking to 182 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 3: me about, hey, uh, you know, they're talking about this guy, 183 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 3: like they have some evidence against you for this, and 184 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 3: I'm like, what this is. When Clifford Polk enters the picture, 185 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 3: he was probably four years younger than me, But Clifford 186 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 3: Polk was a guy who was really friends with my 187 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 3: younger brother that he was friends we met, he was 188 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 3: in high school. He was raised by a single mother, 189 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 3: so we kind of took him in as a younger siblings, 190 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 3: so to speak, because that's how my father was with 191 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 3: the kids in the neighborhood. He would just you know, 192 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 3: be a father figure to a lot of these kids. 193 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 2: Clifford Pope, now he's a pretty important character in this 194 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 2: story because it's ultimately his evidence that they used to 195 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: convict you. What did he say to the police to 196 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 2: tie you into the crime. 197 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 3: Polk brought in another mutual friend of ours named Batist 198 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 3: Batiste Richardson. He said that Batist loaned me a weapon, 199 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 3: and then when Batist went to retrieve the weapon back 200 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 3: for me, like hey, let me get that back, Cliff 201 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 3: said that I said to Batist, oh you don't want 202 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 3: that man that got cheap Charlie name written all over. 203 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: It, and Chief Charlie, that's Charles Hughes, one of the 204 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 2: people murdered on April eight. 205 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 3: Cliff just made up a lot of stuff. He just 206 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 3: started making up stuff like I was selling guns out 207 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,719 Speaker 3: of my house and he was just making up stuff, right, 208 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 3: And then they investigated Batist, of course to coroborate what 209 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 3: Cliff said, and of course Batiste was like, what you know, 210 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 3: this is bullshit, Like this did not happen. I don't 211 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 3: know what this dude is talking about. So my attorney 212 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 3: told me they want you to turn yourself in, and 213 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 3: I said, I've turned myself in for what He's like, 214 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 3: they have a charge against you, like, they have a warrant. 215 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 3: And it was probably two months before they finally came 216 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 3: to the house while I was there and arrested me. 217 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 2: Okay, so now we're getting into the trial. The prosecution's 218 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 2: main argument was the testimony of Clifford Pope. There was 219 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: some back and forth between both sides as to whether 220 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 2: Pope was being incentivized by the police to implicate you, 221 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 2: but Pope said on stand that he wasn't in witness 222 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 2: protection and he wasn't getting anything in return for his testimony, 223 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 2: and this is really important and we'll get back to 224 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: that later on. So all this is going on, and 225 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,199 Speaker 2: you actually decide to testify in your own defense, something 226 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 2: that you rarely see. Why did you decide to testify? 227 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 3: So one of the primary reasons why I testify is 228 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 3: because one, I didn't do it right, and I wasn't 229 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 3: afraid to get up there, and I knew whatever the 230 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 3: district Attorney was going to say about me, like I 231 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 3: had already admitted to it, meaning like my prior saw 232 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 3: it or whatever it was like, So I knew beyond 233 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 3: that anything he tried to allege against me, he would 234 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 3: be just making it up. And I felt like I 235 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 3: wanted to I wanted to speak my peace, like I 236 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 3: wanted to be able to say no, I didn't do this. 237 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 2: And getting up there, I mean, how did you feel 238 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 2: about the try? How did you gauge the jury? Did 239 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 2: you think they was? They was listening. 240 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 3: I just figured if they hear this information, they're gonna 241 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 3: side with the truth. So the way that the DA 242 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 3: spun it though he painted a very effective picture. All 243 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 3: they see is what's on TV. And it's like, like 244 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 3: what I want to start. Police are good? If you 245 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 3: weren't bad, you wouldn't be coming from out of that 246 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 3: holding tank in this orange like you would be coming 247 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 3: from out here, Like it's all those dynamics where I play. 248 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: And going through that, going through that trial, you know, 249 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 2: and I'm gonna speak from personal, but going through a trial, 250 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 2: you don't know what's going on, you don't know the law, 251 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: you don't you have no clue on whether it's up 252 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 2: down whatever. You just sitting there. How long did your 253 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 2: trial last? And when you was convicted? How did the 254 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 2: words guilty hit you? 255 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 3: Okay, so my trial lasted, I would say, I wouldn't 256 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 3: say it lasted longer than two weeks. They tried to 257 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 3: offer me a deal. So my lawyer came in there 258 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 3: and he's like, I know this is the part that 259 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 3: you know, you don't we want to hear about, and 260 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 3: you know, but I have to do this, you know, 261 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 3: like I have to offer you this, and you know, 262 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 3: jen Enny is talking about a deal here. And I 263 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 3: said a deal like what they gonna let me go? 264 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 3: And I don't assume what like? And he's like, well, no, 265 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 3: you know, he said, if you willing to take thirty years, 266 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 3: you know you could. I said, what thirty years like? 267 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 3: So then my lawyer went down to like fifteen years, right, 268 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 3: and then he went down to like ten and I said, 269 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 3: I'm not taking a day like, I'm not I'm not 270 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 3: taking a day period. And I told my lawyer, I said, man, 271 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 3: they about to find me not guilty. And we went 272 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 3: out there and they, you know, the foreman read the 273 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 3: verdict or gave it to the judge and the judge 274 00:14:54,840 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 3: said guilty. It was a surprise. It was a It 275 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 3: was kind of surreal. So I just kind of sat 276 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 3: with it, like, Okay, what do we do now. 277 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: This episode is sponsored by the AIG pro Bono Program. 278 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: AIG is a leading global insurance company, and the AIG 279 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: pro Bono Program provides free legal services, as well as 280 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: other support to many nonprofit organizations as well as individuals 281 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: who are most in need, and they recently announced that 282 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: working to reform the criminal justice system will become a 283 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: key pillar of the program's mission. 284 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 3: Once that happened, you know, it was just guilty on 285 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 3: all these charges, right, So you also have your lawyer. 286 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 3: When you hear your lawyer say your're want to put 287 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 3: this in a record, to appeal this to do so, 288 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 3: that means you have one last chance, which is you 289 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 3: can go in front of the judge and then the 290 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 3: judge can actually just do the right thing, you know, 291 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 3: like I'm gonna ow, I don't believe that the burden 292 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 3: of proof was met on the side of the prosecution, 293 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 3: and that's what I was hoping for. And I really 294 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 3: thought that that was gonna happen. And I spoke to 295 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 3: the judge. You know, I told the judge, I said, listen, 296 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 3: all I expected was fairness and impartiality, and I haven't 297 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 3: gotten any of that. So I'm appealing to your fairness 298 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 3: and your impartiality in this matter. That's what I said 299 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 3: to him. And he gave me all these life sentences. 300 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 2: So what was your What was your sentence? 301 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 3: So I ended up with twelve life sentences too without parole, 302 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 3: plus twenty six years. 303 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 2: Damn how long? I mean? I know I might be joking, 304 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 2: but shit, how long would it that took you to 305 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 2: do all that time? 306 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 3: Well, and then I would have had to die once, 307 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 3: come back, die again, come back, die ten more times, 308 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 3: come back, and then do twenty six years. That's what 309 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 3: it meant. 310 00:16:58,040 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 4: Like. 311 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 3: The shit didn't make no sense to me. It was 312 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 3: surreal it did. I'm like, you could have just gave 313 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 3: me one life sentence and it would have helped me, 314 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 3: but it essentially was a death sentence. That's basically what 315 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:09,239 Speaker 3: it was. 316 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 4: Hey. 317 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: I used to clawn with one of my partners. He 318 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 2: had two hundred and ten years to life and shit, 319 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 2: onder the three strikes law, and we used to be like, man, 320 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,239 Speaker 2: So when you get out Okay, so you you on 321 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 2: your way to prison from the county jail, and you 322 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 2: know it's a trip. Man. You know, I've always wondered about, 323 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 2: you know, innocent people in prison. You know, I was 324 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: pretty much guilty for the my actions, you know what 325 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 2: I'm saying. But I always while I was in prison, 326 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 2: I used to always wonder, what are innocent individual So 327 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: I got to ask, man, what was prison like for 328 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 2: an innocent man? 329 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 3: Man, Look, I watched that movie before I ever went 330 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 3: to prison, before like it was American me and I 331 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 3: watched some other kind of penitential movies, and that shit 332 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 3: was just like scary as fuck. Right, So I was like, god, never, 333 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 3: I never never want to go to prison, right, And 334 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 3: this is before any of that stuff, Like it was 335 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 3: just that environment, that culture, right, and saying Quentin being 336 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 3: the one place, especially back then, because when I went 337 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 3: to San Quentin, like the inmates were like the counselor 338 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 3: they did all the intake, you know, like it wasn't 339 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 3: you didn't go see a counselor. They did it. They 340 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 3: gave you your CDC number, you. 341 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 4: Know what I mean. 342 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 3: Your picture looked like you one of them. Alcatraz Island inmates. Like, 343 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 3: so that's what I had. That was my experience. Like 344 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,239 Speaker 3: they did a special transfer because I was now like 345 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 3: essentially a death penalty kind of case with them Alwops. 346 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 3: So I didn't have to wait for the prison bus 347 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 3: and load up. They literally got me out of there 348 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 3: the next day, Like I didn't get a chance to 349 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 3: say bye to nobody, Like as soon as I was 350 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 3: convicted the next day, I was on that butt on 351 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 3: that van on my way to Quinton. 352 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 2: And what was your mindset like going in with the 353 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 2: alwop sentence, you know, life without the possibility of parole. 354 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 3: It did I didn't. It didn't compute because it didn't 355 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 3: make sense to me, Like I didn't understand what that meant, 356 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 3: Like this is my first time going through something like this, 357 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 3: So I didn't understand that it meant you gonna die 358 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 3: in prison, You ain't never going to the board. I 359 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 3: didn't understand any of that. I just assume at some 360 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 3: point somebody gonna get me back, you know, my lawyer 361 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 3: or somebody gonna find something that's And again, we had 362 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 3: an appeal in so you hanging on those hopes like 363 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 3: that your appeal and and uh so I just told 364 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 3: myself immediately, I said, you know what, I'm just gonna 365 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 3: meet this environment how it meets me. Like, that's what 366 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 3: I'm about to do. 367 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 2: I have to ask man, like, like, what was what 368 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: was like a bad day in prison for you? 369 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 3: Every day there's not a prison I went to I'm 370 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 3: talking about. By the time I left prison, I had 371 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 3: been to like ten different and all maximum security prisons 372 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 3: because of my LWOP everywhere up north to down south 373 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 3: by the Mexican border in between. Like I've been to 374 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 3: all of that, and I tell you it was it 375 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 3: was because of the type of sentence I had. It 376 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 3: meant that I was only going to be around what 377 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 3: they call the most violent kind of inmates, the most 378 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 3: you know, all of that stuff. And uh and it 379 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 3: and it lived up to every every word of that. 380 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 3: Like two years after I was in prison, I was 381 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 3: almost murdered in an unprovoked attack by some white supremacists. 382 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 2: It just just real quick. What happened. 383 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 3: Me and a friend of mine was just like walking 384 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 3: the track and and uh it was like these five 385 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 3: five guys, they were Nazi lowriders as they call them 386 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 3: in LRS back then, and uh, they all had flat 387 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 3: pieces of steel like and two of them came at 388 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 3: my partner, like two of them, three of them came 389 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 3: at me, and uh, thank God, like divine intervention in 390 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 3: my fighting skills, because I did receive like some puncture wounds, 391 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 3: Like I got about nine puncture wounds out of it 392 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 3: because it was three of them. But uh, they didn't 393 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 3: hit no vital Uh they wasn't able to hit vital 394 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 3: organs because of the fact that I was fighting back 395 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 3: and the guard were shooting and stuff like that. And 396 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 3: in turn, you know that that put me in like 397 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 3: a war mode mind, like when your security is breached 398 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 3: like that, Like it's like what happened when I was 399 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 3: on the streets, Like my perception changed from that point. 400 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 2: So so it's safe to say you've seen a lot 401 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 2: of violence in those level four prisons. 402 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 4: Every day every day. 403 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 2: I was just like you. I looked at the Court 404 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 2: of Appeals as a way to get out. How did 405 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 2: it work out for you and in post litigation that 406 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 2: you win your appeals denied? 407 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 3: I was denied all the way through around two thousand 408 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 3: and one. Two other guys that I grew up with, 409 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 3: John Tennyson and Anton Golf JJ and Sodapop, that's what 410 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 3: their names were. So around two thousand and one, John's 411 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 3: case started getting some traction in the news. A journalist 412 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 3: by the name of A. C. Thompson who had worked 413 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 3: for the Bay Guardian news at the time. So John 414 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 3: Tennyson's brother Bruce always believed that his brother was falsely convicted. 415 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 3: He decided to I guess he connected some kind of 416 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 3: way with this journalist, told him, man, my brother is 417 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 3: innocent in this and that, and these police are lying. 418 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 3: And so AC Thompson decided to investigate it. He discovered 419 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 3: that the exact same homicide detectives Earl Sanders and Napoleon 420 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 3: Hendrix that had done that to me, had prior done 421 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 3: it to John Tennyson and Anton Golf. In their case, 422 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 3: there had already been a videotape confession of the person 423 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 3: who had already killed the people that John and Anton 424 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 3: had been convicted of. They had already had a videotape 425 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,239 Speaker 3: confession of the person who did it, admitted to it. 426 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 3: They suppressed it. When a Bay Guardian newspaper came out 427 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,239 Speaker 3: with John Tennyson's face on the front of it and 428 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 3: like questioning whether this man should be in prisoned. His brother, 429 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 3: Bruce worked for this like car lot. He was a 430 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:20,479 Speaker 3: car lot intendant and next to his car lot was 431 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 3: the law firm Kecker and Vaness. So what Bruce did 432 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 3: was Bruce took all those Bay Guardian newspapers out that 433 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 3: thing and he put them on their car windows. And 434 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 3: they had happened to have a pro bono wing in 435 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 3: their firm. So they investigated, and sure enough they found 436 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 3: out that there was a suppressed tape and that these 437 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 3: two guys have been framed. So at the same time 438 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 3: in two thousand and three that they were being exonerated, 439 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 3: I received the letter out the blue from the Innocence Project. 440 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 3: I sent the letter to my father, and my father 441 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 3: gathered up all my information that they were requesting and 442 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 3: sent it to him. So the Innocence Project, once they 443 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 3: connected the dots and seen that we had the same 444 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 3: homicide detectives that had done all of this, they was 445 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 3: like they started coming to visit me. 446 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a crazy kind of story. The Northern 447 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 2: California Innocent Project ends up taking your case and they 448 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 2: bring it to Kecker and van Neess hoping they would 449 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 2: have some more information that could help you out. They 450 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 2: end up talking to this lawyer, a god named Daniel Purcell, 451 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 2: who worked on John and Antoine's case. 452 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 3: And Daniel Purcell says to this day, he said, if 453 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 3: it wasn't for your name, you would still be in prison. 454 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 3: He said the name registered, and he said, like, where 455 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 3: have I heard that name from. During the investigation of 456 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 3: John and Anton's case, they sent an investigator. They had 457 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 3: a motion for discovery, and I guess the city said 458 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 3: you can go check this storage unit and these files 459 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 3: and whatever, you know, and he had to go under, 460 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 3: like he had to go under the debris and all 461 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 3: of this stuff to pull these boxes out. It just 462 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 3: so happened to have newnumerous boxes with my name and 463 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 3: all kind of other stuff connected to it. And Dan 464 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 3: was like, So the first thing Dan did was he 465 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 3: contacted my old attorney, Donald Bergerson, and he's like, hey, Don, like, 466 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 3: you know, who did tell him who he was what 467 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 3: they were doing. He said, yeah, so we have these 468 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 3: boxes and it has all these receipts and this and 469 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 3: this and this, And my lawyer at the Donald was like, 470 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 3: I knew it. I effen knew it. He was like, 471 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 3: And then it made sense to me because back when 472 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 3: I was in trial, this man used to file so 473 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 3: many damn motions, right, and he always alleged that the 474 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 3: district attorney out for j and NI was withholding information 475 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 3: and not turning everything over so much so that we 476 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 3: had to have a special hearing in order to resolve 477 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 3: it once and for all. And that's when g and 478 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 3: NI went on the record and back then and was like, 479 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 3: you're honor, we have given. I've given and furnished mister 480 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 3: Bergerson with everything, this, that and the other. So now 481 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 3: we got all this suppressed evidence sitting right here. 482 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 2: So ultimately came to light from all those boxes of 483 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 2: suppressed evidence was that Clifford Pope not only lied when 484 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 2: he named you, but he was actually paid to do it. 485 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 2: In the trial, Clifford said that he wasn't in witness protection, 486 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 2: but the evidence in those boxes proved that he was. 487 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 2: He'd been paid a nice chunk of change to name 488 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 2: you in this crime. And then in two thousand and five, 489 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 2: ten years after you were sent to prison, cliff recannidate's testimony. 490 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 2: He said that he was telling the truth now because 491 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 2: he could no longer live with the guilt of you 492 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 2: being in prison for a crime you didn't do. Do 493 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 2: you hold any animosity towards him. 494 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 3: I never saw Cliff as anything other than like a victim. 495 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 3: As like me. Cliff is a young kid, you know, 496 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 3: and he's scared to death of these homicide They do 497 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 3: the same, I assume, the same thing that they tried 498 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 3: to do to me to him, But it worked on him. 499 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 2: And your lawyers from the Northern California Innocent Project ended 500 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 2: up taking this suppressed evidence all the way to the 501 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 2: California Supreme Court. 502 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, by two thousand and nine, the California Supreme Court, 503 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 3: which I think this happens less than seven percent of 504 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 3: the time with ELWAK cases, but they granted me an 505 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 3: evidentiary hearing. So for the first time in all these years, 506 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 3: I was able to come back in twenty ten for 507 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 3: a week and we were able to depose the district 508 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 3: attorney and I think Hendrix, the Sanders partner, had passed 509 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 3: away in eight by this time, so they were also 510 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 3: able to interview and depose Earl Sanders, and basically they 511 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 3: just was blaming each other, Like al virgin Anny was saying, no, 512 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 3: they never gave us this stuff. Sanders was saying, we 513 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 3: gave Gnny and all this stuff and I'm just sitting 514 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 3: back like whatever, y'all still fucked up, Like it ain't y'all. 515 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 3: Y'all lied, period. So Judge Marla J. Miller she looked 516 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 3: through it, and she saw through it, and she ultimately 517 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 3: she vacated my conviction December fourteenth. 518 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 2: I believe it was so cararaa. As you know, I 519 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 2: was commuted by Governor Brown. My life sentence was commuted gone. 520 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: And I know what I felt like, I have to 521 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 2: ask you this, how did you find out that you 522 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 2: were getting out. 523 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 3: I was just in the celle like they had sent 524 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 3: me back to prison, and I was doing what I 525 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 3: do and one of my friends came up to me 526 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 3: and he was like, man, you know you going home? Right? 527 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 3: I was like what? He was like, Man, you going home? 528 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 3: And he slid the newspaper, the San Francisco Chronicle to 529 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 3: me under my door and it had my article right 530 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 3: there on the front page, Judge vacate's conviction. Right. So 531 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 3: I'm looking at this and I'm like, oh shit. So 532 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 3: then you really start feeling like get me out of 533 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 3: here right now? You know what am I doing here? 534 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 3: Like you think you free now? Right? 535 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 2: Yeah? Trust I know that feeling about let me out now. 536 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 2: But the DA can hold you in there to see 537 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,959 Speaker 2: if the city wants to retry the case. But luckily 538 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 2: for you, the dad's a time Kamala Harris the one 539 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 2: that wants you to wait and see what happens with 540 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 2: the city. She was leaving office to take a new 541 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 2: job as the California Attorney General. She was being replaced 542 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 2: by a new DA George Gascon. 543 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 3: The first major order of business he did was dismissed 544 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 3: my case outright, like just straight up, just dismissed it, 545 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 3: and and then I would be released January twelfth. January twelfth, 546 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 3: two thousand and eleven. 547 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 2: To George Gascon. 548 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 3: Absolutely, that's a good thing right there. 549 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 2: And you you have to explain, man, like what was 550 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 2: that day like when you first walked out, Like what 551 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 2: did you do? 552 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 3: Of course, I was elated to be getting out, but 553 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 3: now it's like fuck, like you know, I'm out of prison, now, 554 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,719 Speaker 3: what you know what I mean? Like I'm coming out 555 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 3: of a controlled environment, extremely controlled environment to just basically 556 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 3: be able to do what I want to do. So 557 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 3: it was overwhelming, Like it was scary. It was I 558 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 3: was happy about it, but it was it was just 559 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 3: like I got to take this one day at a time. 560 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 3: But then ultimately I just kind to you know, it's like, 561 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 3: you know what, I'm finna take this head on out here, 562 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 3: you know. And that's what I did. I never looked back, 563 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 3: you know. 564 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 2: And now that you're free, what are you doing? 565 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 3: Well? When I first came home, like I was, I was, 566 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 3: I was always like going to different law schools, you know, 567 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 3: and talking talking to the first and second year law students, 568 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 3: and I was doing this like all over the state, 569 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 3: Like I was just going everywhere anywhere I was invited. 570 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 3: Like I love talking about this story because it feels 571 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 3: like it almost feels like it's not me I'm talking about, 572 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 3: you know. And I kind of always say I was 573 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 3: already free mentally, spiritually, I was already free. They just 574 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 3: physically had my body. So I was very focused, like 575 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 3: prior to getting out of prison, like, I was very 576 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 3: focused on how I was going to live my life, 577 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 3: what I was going to do. One of the main 578 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 3: things was to be able to get back into prison, 579 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 3: to be able to walk back through that visiting room 580 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,719 Speaker 3: as a free person, you know, with people that I 581 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 3: literally grew up with in prison because I spent at 582 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 3: that point, half my life in there, So that was 583 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 3: one of the most empowering things was to be able 584 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 3: to get approved by the CDC to come back in 585 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 3: and visit, you know, and that's where I met you. Yep, 586 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 3: that's exactly what happened. 587 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 2: I was serving the life sentence and you came in 588 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 2: and that's how I met you. 589 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. So from that point it was all about, Okay, 590 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 3: I know all these great stories and different people in prison, 591 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 3: and I always say prison is one of the most 592 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 3: untapped markets for creative So in twenty sixteen, I ultimately 593 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 3: created a production company, Lifted Clouds, and the goal there 594 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 3: was to just bring a lot of guys content books, 595 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 3: you know, personal stories, you know, all of this to 596 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,479 Speaker 3: the public, you know, because it's some amazing it's some 597 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 3: amazing people in there. 598 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 2: Caramel Connley, we thank you for definitely telling us your 599 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 2: story of being I appreciate you convicted in California, man, 600 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: and I'm glad you out here like doing your thing, man, 601 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 2: and appreciate everything you're doing. 602 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate y'all having me on here. 603 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 2: So Karama, you know, I always wanted to be a lawyer. 604 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 2: So now we're coming to what's called closing arguments. Do 605 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 2: you have any final thoughts, any epiphanies, what would you 606 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 2: like to share with the wrong full conviction listeners? 607 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 3: You know, I would just say that. You know, It's 608 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 3: like there's this this kind of myth where people say, 609 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 3: you know, everybody in prison say always say they're innocent, right, 610 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 3: Everybody says they're innocent when they're in prison, And that's 611 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 3: a myth, honestly. Like there are guys, most of the 612 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 3: guys that I was in prison with, they said they 613 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 3: did the crime, they just didn't believe they should have 614 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 3: got the time that they got. Like I said, essentially 615 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 3: a life without parole since is a death sentence. But 616 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 3: imagine if they would have gave me the death penalty 617 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 3: and I would have actually died on death row, you know, 618 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 3: and then you see all of it. Yeah, So that's 619 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 3: the scary part about all of this. We think our 620 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 3: systems are perfect, and they're not. They're not. They need 621 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 3: to be absolutely reformed from the inside out. And I'm 622 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 3: gonna tell you so much might come as a surprise. 623 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 3: I'm not anti law enforcement by no mean, you. 624 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 2: Know, so, do you still want to be a SWAT member? 625 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 3: I am a SWAT member, just in a different way. Yeah. 626 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 2: Also's and one thing I can say out this whole story, man, 627 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 2: is uh, you got the best name because your name 628 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 2: is what got you back into the game. 629 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 3: So no doubt. 630 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 4: Man. 631 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 3: I thank my father and my mom for that, because 632 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 3: growing up it was hell having that name because nobody 633 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 3: can pronounce it right, you know. Shout out to my 634 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 3: mom and pops, you know, for that. 635 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host, 636 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 2: Erline Woods. I like to think of our executive producer 637 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 2: Jason Flumm and Kevin Watis. The senior producer for this 638 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 2: episode is Jackie Paul and our producers are Lila Robinson 639 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 2: and Jeff Cleiburn. Our editor is Rook Sandra Guidy. The 640 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 2: music in this production is by three time OSCAR nominated 641 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 2: composer Jay Raff. Be sure to follow us on Instagram 642 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 2: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and 643 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 2: on Twitter at Rome Conviction, as well as at Lava 644 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 2: for Good. On all three platforms, you can find me 645 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 2: on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Erline Woods and check 646 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 2: out ear Hustle, the podcast I co created with Nirapoor 647 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,280 Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts. We also wrote a book 648 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 2: called This is Ear Hustle, Unflinching stories of everyday prison life. 649 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts 650 00:34:51,520 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 2: and association with Signal Company Number one. 651 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: On next week's guest hosted episode of Wrongful Conviction, my 652 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:12,320 Speaker 1: friend and personally hero ex Hoonery and musician Jimmy Dennis 653 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 1: is going to interview Chester Holman the Third about their harrowing, 654 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 1: tragic shared experiences of having been locked up in Philadelphia 655 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: for crimes they didn't commit. Now, both men were put 656 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: away by the notorious, infamous and even I'm going to say, 657 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,959 Speaker 1: evil prosecutor Roger King, who get this. He put more 658 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: people on death row than anyone else in Pennsylvania history. 659 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: And we know a bunch of them were innocent. And 660 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: there's a lot of guys will never know about who 661 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: we put on death row who are innocent as well. 662 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: It's sickening, but it's a mustier story. It's going to 663 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: be on Monday in the Ronful Conviction podcast feed