WEBVTT - Mountaineering, Bushcraft and Hunting with Rick Spicer 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:03.760 You're listening to the Sportsman's Nation podcast network, brought to 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:07.880 you by go Wild. Now. The Go Wild app has 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:11.800 added some really cool and exciting functionality to their app, 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:14.480 and the first one I want to talk about is 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:18.319 the near me function and basically what this does. It 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.800 allows you to engage and connect with people in your area. 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.000 You guys can talk about gear you guys can talk 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:27.720 about hunting areas, you guys can talk about what's going 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:30.840 on in the woods, and it just allows the users 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:34.839 to be more of a community and connect easier. The 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:38.440 second part is the gearbox and what the gearboxes. It 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:43.080 is a an opportunity for the users to not only 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:48.360 see reviews on products and see what the go wild 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.560 community is using in the field, what products they're using, 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:55.000 but it also allows you guys to purchase up to 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:59.800 a hundred and fifty thousand products. There's there's a shopping 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.240 action on it. So check out the go Wild app. 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:05.760 If you haven't downloaded it to your phone yet, you 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:08.960 need to and you can do that at any app 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:14.280 store that is currently available. Go Wild It's an awesome app. 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:22.039 Check him out. My name is Clay Nukeleman. I'm the 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.959 host of the Bear Hunting magazine podcast. I'll also be 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.440 your host into the world of hunting, the icon of 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:35.200 the North Americans wilderness Prepare. We'll talk about tactics, gear conservation. 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:38.000 We will also bring you into some of the wildest 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:48.280 country on the planet, chasing fair In the hunting world, 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:52.120 I wouldn't have necessarily been familiar with the term bushcraft. 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.000 It's not something that we use in hunting. But Rick 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:59.840 Spicer is big into bushcraft, wilderness survival and he teaches 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:04.600 those things. And he's also a mountaineer, hiker and a 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:10.160 basically a wilderness adventure and that's a lot of his background. 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:13.880 He's also a hunter. He's a primitive hunter, primitive archer, 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:18.920 naps his own flint, and he's deeply vested inside the 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:23.040 outdoor community. Has traveled all over the world climbing mountains. 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:27.240 Me and Rich talk about mountaineering, some near death experiences. 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:31.200 We talk about his primitive archery, and the main thing 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:34.920 we talked about is how to connect these two different 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:38.640 groups who both have vested interests in wild places. And 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:44.000 we talk about how people from the extreme outdoors and 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:49.520 just generally people who are hikers, canoeers, mountaineers kind of 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.400 how they can transition and how a lot of them 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:56.160 want to but maybe don't know how to transition into 0:02:56.520 --> 0:03:01.240 hunting and acquiring wild meat from these wild places. Really 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:06.120 interesting conversation with a super interesting guy, Rick Spice. You 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:09.040 want to check out w Hunting Supply if you have 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:15.360 any hound or dog related needs from garmon products leashes 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:19.960 and collars, or just expertise on on how to use 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:23.600 garment products. The customer service that d you is excellent. 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:28.480 Do you Hunting Supply dot com. As we're coming into 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:31.200 the fall, we're gonna be starting to think about fall 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:37.360 bear baiting. Northwoods bear products best bear commercial sense on 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:39.800 the market. If you're baiting bears, it does not make 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:44.600 sense for you to not be using Northwoods. 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These guys are a nonprofit 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:22.880 hunting conservation organization that are representing bear hunters, bears, and 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:29.760 wild places out west. All Right, I was trying to 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:34.920 think of a new way to do a opening here, Kolbe. Yeah, 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:38.600 I don't know. Well, I think I'm doing it right now. 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.839 This is a new way to open the podcast, considering 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:45.160 how to consider Rick, do you have any ideas for 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.240 how we could open this podcast to be just not 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:51.800 the same because we usually say we're at the Bear 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:57.320 Hunting Magazine global headquarters, So we're not gonna say that today, Okay, Um, yeah, 0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:59.160 that's kind of what I'm used to with you, because 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:03.920 you know, let's to uh several of them, and so, yeah, 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:07.239 it's hard to break away once you've got a something 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:11.600 that's worked for you has worked for that. But at 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:19.440 the same time, yeah, sometimes changes worth exploring. I think, so, Um, 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.520 I don't know, Al, it's always interested. How about we 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:26.280 start by saying you're hearing the voice of Rick Spicer, 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:31.840 the Rick. I've just met you pretty recently. I've known 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:34.280 of you for a long time. Yeah, And likewise, I've 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:37.280 known of you for actually years, primarily because of your 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:42.320 cousin um, but but more more recently because obviously of 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:45.440 the podcast and the magazine and all that stuff, and 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.760 you know, being a local guy. Uh and the you know, 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:52.680 as you know, you've kind of been making a name 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:55.200 for yourself and kind of getting out there and all that. 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:57.960 You know, you can't help, but you know, especially if 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.359 you're in that Instagram world and all that stuff, you know, 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:02.640 you just started to see these things. Well I thought 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:06.000 it was cool, coolbe uh. I walked into pack Rat 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:08.360 and we'll get into pack Rat. What that is is 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:12.599 a store and fatable and I recognized Rick behind his 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:19.000 mask a full full like uh buff like you know, 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:20.960 like ninja, like all the way up to the eyes 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:24.359 almost and then uh. And I had on some mask 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.240 that was like pulling my ears down where I was like, 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:29.559 my kids make fun of it. I have a pretty 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:31.919 big head, so when I wear a mask, like a 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.280 regular mask that was made for somebody else, like it, uh, 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:37.599 like my ears must be like way back on my 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.200 head because it like stretches him down. So anyway, I 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:42.599 took my mask off and said, hey, Rick, are you 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:46.039 Rick or something like that whatever. I recognized you too, though, 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:49.560 Uh so, Yeah, I kinda kind of knew who it 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.920 wasn't a surprise. Yeah, Well, I think that's a good 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:57.479 that's a good place to to start introducing who Rick is. 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:00.919 You're you're Yeah, let me have a like a little 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:03.480 introduction and then we can go into the different segments 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:09.200 of it. Uh. You are you are a mountaineer and 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:15.640 outdoorsman hiker. Uh. Your your history is pretty deep into 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:21.560 like the the outdoor world and part of that being 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.640 in the non hunting outdoor world of mountaineering and hiking. 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:30.520 And you are you are you are part owner owner 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:36.080 of a store in Fatable, Arkansas called Packgraft. Yeah. Also, 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.200 so this is a short intro. You are a hunter 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:47.000 and you are into napping, flint, hair heads, traditional archery. 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:51.760 You're into bushcraft, which I want to talk about that 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:55.280 because that's a word that that uh I think. I mean, 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:59.280 I'm not that familiar with the term bushcraft, and that's 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:03.880 kind of a rhyme like because hunters, if other hunters 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:07.280 are like me, that's not a term we use to 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.760 describe it. Even though we're out in wild places probably 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:15.040 doing some of this, but anyway, you're big into that stuff. 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.239 And uh, I think as time goes by, all these 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:22.160 circles start to overlap more and more, you know what 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:24.960 I mean, which I think ultimately is what we're going 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.880 to arrive at a little later in our conversation today. Uh, 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:31.560 you know, and just sort of looking at um, how 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:35.480 all these different things are related, and uh, you know, 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:38.800 I guess ultimately we've no matter which one of those 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:41.439 circles you find yourself in, there's I like to think 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:44.960 there's a lot more that uh overlaps and brings us together, 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.400 and there is that separates us absolutely. So man, what 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:53.200 got you into like extreme mountaineering and stuff? You know, 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.200 that's a really good question. I've I've been asked that 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:57.680 a few times in my life, and it's weird. You know. 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:01.120 I grew up very much a traditional console bringing him 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.560 from me Star Kansas and the Delta, and I grew 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:05.760 up hunting fishing over there with my dad. You know, 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:09.120 That's what I knew. But probably when I was I 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:11.719 don't know, eight or nine years old, I remember my 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.640 grandpa gave me this like, for lack of a better term, 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:17.400 a Rambo knife, and it was way too big a 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:21.480 knife for screw off compass. I did not have that, 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.160 but like it had a sheath with all that stuff 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:26.120 in it, Like I choose on the sheath, so it 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.960 had the fishing and then you know, and all that stuff. 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:33.120 And and of course my parents were like, well are 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:34.920 you crazy? What are you giving a knife like that 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.360 to eight year old kid? And uh, because it's right, 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:40.679 you know, And and I like to think that, you know, 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:43.200 he trusted me well enough not to cut my foot 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:46.400 off with it or something like that. But um, I 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.400 just as far back as I can remember, I just 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:54.559 knew I wanted to be in the most wild places 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:57.760 I could get to, you know, I just wanted default 0:09:57.840 --> 0:09:59.880 inside of it. And yeah, and it didn't really even 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.160 only met her like what I was doing there, like 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:04.880 I could I might go to hunt, might go to fish, 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:06.280 and might go to climb a mountain. I might go 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.480 to just hike or just be there. But I just 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.920 knew that's what I wanted to do. Um. And I 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:17.120 really don't even you know, know when that's started. But um, 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.760 you know, I guess ultimately I'm grateful for that because 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:21.959 it's led me to do a lot of different things 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:24.320 and many many different places in the U. S. And 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:28.079 all over the world really and uh so, I guess 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:31.160 it's just was always just that innate curiosity. Did your 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:36.080 were there influential figures in your life that that helped 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:39.320 you learn to value wild and when I say wild places, 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:42.720 because I'm kind of looking back into my life as well. 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:47.000 And like my my dad, who I talked about like 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:53.079 every other podcast, like he uh he valued like getting 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:56.760 as far back as we possibly could, valued wild places. 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.040 And I think probably over a lifetime he built it 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.280 into me before I was even conscious. Did you have that? 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:05.600 I mean I had a similar experience. So you know, 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:09.440 my father was never like a backpacker so to speak. 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.000 You know, we didn't ever really hike in in camp places, 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:14.720 but he was always very influential when it came to 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:17.800 the outdoors in general. And that was just something we 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:21.840 did in our family, it was. And my grandfather wasn't 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:24.560 a hunter, but he was like a crazy fisherman, like 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:26.560 that was like all he all he thought about was, 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:28.640 you know, he was a carpenter and a fisherman and 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.800 so um those were the things. And did he finish 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:34.080 you on the Mississippi River over there a little bit 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:36.800 but mostly it was it was those river shoots, you know, 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:39.240 lakes and stuff like that. That's what I grew up 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.559 fishing in when from a very young age, places like that. 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:47.400 So yeah, yeah, So what have you give me an 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.760 overview of some of your mountaineering, Like, I know you've 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:55.280 been down to South America? Where have you been? Yeah, 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.800 I've been lucky to go to quite a few places. 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:00.839 So I've done, oh, probably half a dozen trips or 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:04.280 so to South America. You know, I've done the biggest 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:07.320 mountains I've ever climbed in my life, or Peru um 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:09.679 and there that's the Andes Mountain Range, and there's mountains 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:12.480 over twenty thousand feet down there, and so you know, 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:16.880 I've been fortunate. We've got to stop here. Um, how 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:23.800 how tall is uh uh twenty nine thousand ft tall? Yeah, so, 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:25.839 and that's you know, of course in the himalay Is 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.320 in Asia and those those are the tallest mountain range, 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:34.959 our tallest mountains, the mountains way up to So in 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.760 Concagua is the tallest mountain in South America and it's 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.520 on the border of Argentina and Chile. And um, I've 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:44.360 seen it. I haven't climbed it, but um driven by 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:48.080 it and UM, but you know, I have done a 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:51.000 lot of climbing, rock climbing, um, from a young age. 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.679 I started rock climbing when I was probably fourteen years old. 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:56.080 I was in an explorer post as a boy, and 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.760 uh an explorer. Yeah, so that's like a branch of scouting, 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:02.960 so as as you developed and scouting and I don't 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:06.240 even honestly know if it's a thing anymore, but um, 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.640 it was kind of a subsidiary, so to speak, of scouting. 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.960 And there was, um, of course, a couple of ads that, um, 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:16.240 we're involved in volunteers and things, and um, there's some 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:19.319 kids that I went to school with and so we 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:22.760 just started camping and repelling and trying to find caves 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:25.040 to go into. And we were lucky to have a 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:28.480 couple of folks that adults that looked after us, you know, 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:30.720 and tried to keep us from getting hurt, that sort 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:33.880 of thing. And that's where I found her. I'll climbing, 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:37.280 and from there it just went a hundred different directions. Really. 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:38.760 It was like, oh, man, I want to do this, 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:40.200 I want to do that. I kind of wanted to 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.360 try everything, but I didn't. I didn't mean to derail you. 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:47.440 We were in South America twenty thousand foot mountains. Yeah, 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.880 so I've been there a couple of times. Um, but yeah, 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.600 I've been to Columbia, I've been to Argentina, been to Chile. 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:55.719 So I've spent quite a lot of time. I love 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.440 South America and what so, Okay, on one of those 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:02.680 trips you go down there, what are your objectives? Like, 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:06.680 You're not like going on like a twenty mile loop trail, 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:10.080 like taking photos like a are are you trying to go? 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:12.680 Actually too? And and that And I actually do that 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:14.680 type of thing with my wife. You know, my wife 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.760 is not a climber. She's you know, she she doesn't hunt. 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.080 She she likes fishing a little bit, but mainly she 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:24.720 just likes to be in beautiful places outdoors. And uh, 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.280 that's an experience that we love to share together. So 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.880 about half of the stuff that I've done, especially is 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:33.920 you know, i've gotten older and we've been together. Um, 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:36.880 will be trips that are just basically hiking trips or 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:39.440 backpacking trips, so we're living out of a backpack from 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.200 multiple days and we're just going to enjoy nature and 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.640 take photographs and that sort of thing. But the other 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:48.600 half the time, um, I uh, you know, it's what 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:51.560 I like to call type too fun. Uh we're going 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:53.960 or I'm going or and whoever I'm going with, or 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.320 we're going to be challenged, uh to try to you know, 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:01.880 attempt something that is it's always a fine line of 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:05.680 doing something that's dangerous enough to be sort of interesting 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.920 and and learn how to manage that risk, but not 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.160 so dangerous that you know, you're like, man, I may 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:13.280 not come home if I if I do that, right? 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.680 So would that be like uh like a like a 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:20.080 particular mountain, like trying to some of that mountain you 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:21.760 would go down to. So you've been down there six 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.560 times each time you were like, we are going to 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:27.440 climb to the top of this mountain, to the top 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:29.400 of this mount I would It's akin to you know, 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:32.480 you're gonna go on a big Western whatever elkhon or 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:34.960 what you know. You you don't just go out there blind, right, 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:37.640 you do research ahead of time. Well, mountaineering is no different. 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.160 You know. You you do your research, you talk to people, 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:42.440 you may get a guide book or something like that. 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:46.840 You learn what equipment you need and client roots on on. 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:50.240 Routes have rating systems, and so you know, you find 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:53.280 a route that's rated that you feel like it's appropriate 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:55.760 for your level of skill, and then at that point 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:57.880 you say, okay, this is our objective and you go 0:15:58.000 --> 0:15:59.880 there either most of the time as a team. And 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.320 mean a lot of these types of sports it's more 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:05.560 even it's a lot more dangerous to do it alone, 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.680 even though some people do it um but typically you know, 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.760 you're you're tied into a rope with somebody else, and uh, 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:13.400 you know, you're trying to make your way up, and 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.600 sometimes you get to the top, and sometimes you assess 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:18.560 the situation and so you know what, it's not worth it. 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:20.360 We gotta turn around and get down, either because of 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:23.880 weather or objective hazards. I mean, I've seen rockfall and 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:29.720 avalanches and all kinds of things. You know that that 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:35.320 world is like, and it's super different than the hunt. 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:37.360 You know, like people might like somebody that didn't know 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:40.360 the outdoors might thing, Yeah, rock climbing and hunting, well, 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:46.680 they're just the adventure aspects. Man, I get zero thrill 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:52.400 out of being in super dangerous like physical situations with 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:58.000 rock and earth. I don't mind that much at all 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:03.240 dangerous situation with wild animals. Yeah, yeah, it's to me, 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:06.440 it's yeah, totally different. Yeah, And I mean and I'm 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.240 not a rock climber and I'm not an adventure mountaineer 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:11.600 at all. I've never really done it. But the times 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:14.280 that I have experienced what might just be the touch 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:16.439 of that, I've been like, get me off of here. 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:19.320 I think a lot of it too, comes down to 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.280 what your experience level is though, right, because you I 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:26.240 obviously have experience with wild animals, Like you know how 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:28.520 to handle yourself when you're around bears, and you know 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:31.520 around mountain lines and things like that. But if you haven't, 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:34.120 if you don't have that background of like traveling through 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:37.240 complicated terrain in the mountains or canes or stuff like that, 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:40.640 you know, you just you don't know what you don't know, right, 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:45.240 And so learning to manage objective hazards, uh, you know, 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:47.160 just because you know how to handle one situation doesn't 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:50.440 mean you're prepared to handle another, right, and so, um, 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:52.200 it just comes down to how you spend your time 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:56.439 and experience level, right, and where you're you've dedicated yourself 0:17:56.480 --> 0:18:00.119 exactly craft what you love to do, you know, and 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.639 it's not none of it's right or wrong. It's just 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:05.199 how do you love to spend your time? And of 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:07.879 course that's what you're gonna focus on. Okay, tell me 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:10.920 give me this answer. How how how good are you? 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:16.520 Just tell me the truth? Rick, No, like just in 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.320 like mountaineering, like going down and not good, you know, 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:21.840 and it's in the competition, know it's not, but like 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:25.359 like how like what level? Like you know, somebody could 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:29.719 describe probably there their competency and hunting if they were 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.040 being realistic and honest, I could say, you know, I'm 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:36.400 a fairly experienced hunter in this style of stuff, like 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:40.200 like what's your I mean I would call I would 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:43.960 I would say that my experience level is quite high, 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:48.000 but my technical proficiency, um, does not match my level 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:51.800 of experience. In other words, um, I've been on I mean, god, 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:55.040 I've probably climbed a hundred mountains in the twenties some years. 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.359 I've been doing it, um, but I have I'm also 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:02.800 a careful guy, and I look very carefully at what 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:06.879 the risks are, and so I tend to you know, 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:10.040 I like to be challenged physically, but when it comes 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:14.159 to like managing the risk on the route or whatever 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:16.760 the climb is. I tend to pick things that I 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:19.560 feel like I can pretty well stink in control of. 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:23.400 And uh so that what that has done is it's 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:26.480 It's given me a lot of experience. But I've avoided 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.920 a lot of things that were much more technical because 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:31.800 I was just like, you know what, I can have 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:35.520 just as good a time climbing this route that I 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:37.960 feel like as much safer and I can manage, then 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:40.440 if I go do this harder one, but there's a 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:45.560 much higher element of risk involved. Um so um, you know, 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:48.280 and and I was so for a long time too. 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:50.639 I was a rock climbing instructor. I had a certification 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:53.480 with the American Mountain Got Association what's called a sp I. 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:56.639 So I taught rock climbing through that. And um, I 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:59.320 didn't take people on big mountaineering expeditions. It was more 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:01.960 like local old rock climbing, right, teaching them how to 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:05.000 go to a cliff and safely, you know, set the 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:07.480 roots up and do all that. But I've I've taught 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:09.879 hundreds of people over the years, you know, how to 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:12.560 rock climb, and so, um, I guess that one of 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:15.480 the other things I've always enjoyed about it is. Um. 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:17.399 You know, I've I've taught and brought a lot of 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:19.919 friends and acquaintances along on trips like that, and I 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:25.040 get a great deal of joy um out of you know, 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:29.000 introducing people to these types of things and teaching them 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:33.000 how to look after themselves. Uh. For me, that's always 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:35.639 been Uh, I don't know, I get a sense of 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:39.320 accomplishment out of that because I love seeing somebody afterwards 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:42.320 it's like, oh man, that was that was amazing, Like, uh, 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:44.399 you know, I didn't think I could do that. I 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:47.639 didn't think I'd ever do something like that. Um. And 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:50.840 it it's always uh, you know, felt really good to 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:53.239 share that type of experience with people. Have you ever 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:55.960 almost died on the side of the mountain? Yes, what 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.840 give us an example of a of a so that 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.920 the one that sticks out above all the other ones, 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:05.520 you know, just to cut to the chase. Yeah, So 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.160 in in Peru it was the first time I went. 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.639 I guess it was two thousand one maybe something like that, 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:13.879 and I was with one of my good climbing buddies 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:16.480 guy that I've done you know, a large percentage of 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:18.680 the climbs that I've done with and we were ascending 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.520 a mountain. It was a big peak in the the 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:26.200 specific area we were in scared the Courtiera Blanca just 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:31.080 north the waterraz Peru Um. And we were ascending a 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:33.639 mountain and that there wasn't a lot of information about it, 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:35.760 and so we didn't have really good up to date. 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:37.840 We were going off a route description that was like 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:41.399 years old. Right, Well, what has happened in that mountain range, 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:43.840 like many mountain ranges around the world, as these glaciers 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:47.280 are receding um because the climate change and these types 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:50.160 of things, right, you know, And so what happens is 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.960 is as the glacier receeds, there's all this exposed rock 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:57.520 that for thousands of years had snow on top of it. 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:01.680 That that exposed rock is now sliding off the side 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:03.280 of the mountain. The snow is not there to hold 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:05.679 it in place anymore. And so we were unaware of 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:09.280 how much of this exposed rock was above us. So 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:12.520 we're ascending the side of this mountain trying to get 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:14.959 on the glacier above us, which is what we were 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:16.399 going to try to do is climb the snow to 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:19.240 get to the summit. And as we were going up 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.080 this kind of really tight trough. We had made it 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:24.600 up I don't know, several hundred feet, maybe a close 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:27.960 to a thousand feet or so. Um, we heard some 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:31.919 rock above us break loose, and uh, the next like 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:35.359 several seconds was terrifying. It was like like rocks the 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:39.400 size of beer kegs coming down all around us. I mean, 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:41.680 and it was you know, literally grace of God kind 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:44.440 of thing that Um that I'm still here today, that 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:46.520 kind of tell the story about it. So you know, 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:48.640 we had big, big backpacks on and it was one 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:50.880 of those things we're adrenaline kicked in and like we 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:53.240 literally ran down the side of that mountain. I don't 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:54.959 know how we did it. And so where did you go? 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:57.439 How did you? I mean so that if rocks are 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:00.920 coming from above, you like running downhill? Yeah, So what 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:02.800 we did? You know, it was like you got to 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:04.920 come up with a plan and come up with it fast, right. 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:08.159 So what we did was, Um, there wasn't a lot 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:09.920 of places to take cover where we were, and we 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:13.680 knew we couldn't stay in there, and so um, we 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:16.240 got behind the biggest boulder we could find too. You know, 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:19.240 when there's like debris and stuff kind of going over 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:23.280 our heads from this rock fall, and so just real quick, 0:23:23.320 --> 0:23:26.040 I'm like, okay, um, you know, we gotta get down. 0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:28.000 We cannot stay here. What we're gonna do is we're 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:30.479 gonna leap frog this thing. So I'm gonna go first, 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:32.760 and I'm gonna go as far as I can until 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:34.720 I get to the next boulder I can hide behind. 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:38.400 When I get there, you're gonna follow me. And literally 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:42.639 we leap frog until we got down. Meanwhile, the weather 0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:44.960 moves in and we get in a white out and 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:49.040 it starts to snow while all this stuff's going down. 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:51.199 How long did this take? I'm envisioned this being like 0:23:51.240 --> 0:23:54.280 a ten second army The main deal was about that. 0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:56.800 It was probably ten seconds or so. But there was 0:23:56.840 --> 0:24:00.000 a lot of debris and in smaller rocks that continue 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:04.359 in you to fall. Yeah, exactly. It's like this is 0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:07.360 a shooting gallery and you got rocks the size of baseballs. 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:09.879 You know, they're still falling down this trough whizzing by 0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:12.040 your head. Only take one of those, you know. And 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:13.639 of course we had helmets on and stuff, but I 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:16.560 don't care what kind of Oh yeah, I mean, you 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:18.320 don't you gotta have a helmet on doing that type 0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:23.160 of stuff, and um so, but as the weather moved in, um, 0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:26.000 we we finally got to a place where we felt 0:24:26.000 --> 0:24:28.119 like we were safe with the rocks weren't gonna, you know, 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:32.320 get us anymore. And we crawled under this very large boulder, 0:24:32.359 --> 0:24:35.440 probably size of a house and got underneath that thing. 0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:39.080 And it had a kind of an alcove underneath it, 0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:41.320 and it was quite wide, but it was only just 0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:44.879 barely big enough where like we couldn't fully sit up 0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:47.159 underneath it, right, so you can think of yourself like 0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:49.359 kind of leaning with your on your elbow on the ground. 0:24:49.960 --> 0:24:54.040 We spent three and a half days under that rock. Uh. Yeah, 0:24:54.280 --> 0:24:57.680 it started snowing and kept on snowing and kept on snowing. 0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:01.159 We couldn't see anything because it was it out and 0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:06.119 one guy, Yeah, and one time of year, this was June. 0:25:06.560 --> 0:25:09.639 So were you concerned about not ever getting to be 0:25:09.680 --> 0:25:12.960 able to I mean, so the good thing is is 0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:15.920 it happened like day two of the trip, and we 0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:18.959 were we had provisions for a week, so we had food. 0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:23.159 You know, we were okay other than uh, you know, 0:25:23.280 --> 0:25:27.159 basically just being somewhat Oh at that point, it was 0:25:27.200 --> 0:25:32.119 probably sixteen thousand, Yeah, where we were at. Yeah, it 0:25:32.200 --> 0:25:36.879 was pretty high. Wow, what does that do to you 0:25:36.880 --> 0:25:42.040 on inside? Were you scared the moment in the moment, 0:25:42.080 --> 0:25:45.320 but like after you were no, you know at that point, 0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:48.840 because after everything calmed down, I mean even the next day, 0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:52.280 we were still considering, like how can we get back 0:25:52.359 --> 0:25:55.040 up on the mountain. You know, we were obviously we're like, well, 0:25:55.040 --> 0:25:58.160 we're not going that way, right and so um part 0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:00.600 of the reasons, I mean, it's possible could have gotten 0:26:00.600 --> 0:26:03.040 down a little bit early, but you know, we probably 0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:05.920 had a close to a foot of snowfall um by 0:26:05.960 --> 0:26:10.720 the time everything was said and done, and between the conditions, 0:26:10.760 --> 0:26:13.280 not being able to see the snowfall and everything, we 0:26:13.280 --> 0:26:16.479 were like, it's not worth trying to find another safe 0:26:16.720 --> 0:26:19.040 way up this mountain. We just don't feel like it's 0:26:19.320 --> 0:26:21.960 you know, there's plenty of mountains down here. I think 0:26:22.000 --> 0:26:24.199 we're done with this one. And at that point we 0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:28.760 hicked out, and of course they weren't expecting us until later, 0:26:28.920 --> 0:26:30.560 so we didn't have a ride. So we ended up 0:26:30.560 --> 0:26:33.760 having to like hitshike to get a ride town. Yeah, 0:26:34.440 --> 0:26:37.000 where those outfitted deals in the sense that like someone 0:26:37.119 --> 0:26:40.960 drives you out there. Yeah, and you'll you'll appreciate this. Um, 0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:44.479 there's so many folks do us included down there's they 0:26:44.560 --> 0:26:48.760 hire these guys called eddie Ros and they're their mule drivers. 0:26:48.840 --> 0:26:51.720 So yeah, so what you do on the way up 0:26:51.720 --> 0:26:55.560 to your base camp is a mule carries your big pack, yes, 0:26:59.240 --> 0:27:02.200 up in the right. So, um, you hired a guy 0:27:02.440 --> 0:27:05.000 and he's usually got two mules, one for one mule, 0:27:05.200 --> 0:27:08.360 wonder one ratio, one meal for each climber, and um, 0:27:08.400 --> 0:27:10.200 your big pack goes in the back of the mule 0:27:10.359 --> 0:27:12.560 with maybe some extra food or whatever else you want 0:27:12.560 --> 0:27:14.679 to carry, and you just hike up with daypack on. 0:27:14.840 --> 0:27:17.520 And that's nice because it allows you to acclimate and 0:27:17.600 --> 0:27:20.199 kind of prepare, but save your legs because you're not 0:27:20.280 --> 0:27:23.439 carrying sixty pound backpack. You know, that is exactly the 0:27:23.520 --> 0:27:26.040 strategy that I used with five eles. They carry all 0:27:26.080 --> 0:27:27.640 the year. So when I get to where I want 0:27:27.680 --> 0:27:33.120 to go, I'm feeling good. Um, so so like how 0:27:33.200 --> 0:27:35.560 much so if you were at sixteen thousand feet, how 0:27:35.640 --> 0:27:39.119 much elevation had you gained? So the town has been 0:27:39.160 --> 0:27:41.720 a while, honestly since and I don't recall the exact 0:27:41.760 --> 0:27:44.680 elevation of water odds, But it's on up there. I 0:27:44.680 --> 0:27:46.800 want to say it's at least twelve thousand feet, maybe 0:27:46.800 --> 0:27:48.960 a little bit higher, you know, but you would drive 0:27:49.040 --> 0:27:53.639 up some of that. Okay, yeah, yeah, but we just 0:27:53.840 --> 0:27:57.479 we just got back from Colorado and we did you know, 0:27:57.520 --> 0:28:00.680 I mean a minor minor high and something like that. 0:28:00.880 --> 0:28:04.680 But we started at like ten thousand feet and went 0:28:04.800 --> 0:28:09.600 to almost thirteen thousand in about a four mile stretch. Absolutely, 0:28:09.680 --> 0:28:13.480 it's it's pretty intense, I mean, especially with that elevation. Yeah, 0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:16.520 and you're coming from Arkansas, right, I mean, we're there. 0:28:16.560 --> 0:28:19.440 For One thing that people don't realize that haven't spent 0:28:19.440 --> 0:28:21.480 a lot of time at altitude and things like that, 0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:24.680 is I mean, yeah, it helps to have some fitness, 0:28:24.720 --> 0:28:27.240 but the fact of the matter is, you know, there's 0:28:27.320 --> 0:28:29.800 acclamation that has to happen, and the only thing that 0:28:29.800 --> 0:28:32.199 will allow that to happen is time. Your body has 0:28:32.240 --> 0:28:35.160 to make more red blood cells so you can absorb 0:28:35.359 --> 0:28:38.360 that oxygen or the lack of option oxygen when you're 0:28:38.440 --> 0:28:40.800 up there, and I don't care what kind of shape 0:28:40.800 --> 0:28:43.480 you're in, you can still get altitude sickness, you know, 0:28:43.600 --> 0:28:46.000 a m S or hape or something like that from 0:28:46.040 --> 0:28:48.440 being in that situation where you go from a low 0:28:48.480 --> 0:28:51.920 elevation place like that, how many days does it take 0:28:51.960 --> 0:28:53.800 to I mean, I realized it would be great if 0:28:53.800 --> 0:28:55.400 you were there for like a month, but I mean 0:28:55.480 --> 0:28:59.600 like two days, you know, more of the better. But yeah, 0:28:59.720 --> 0:29:01.840 I mean obviously, and it depends on how high you're 0:29:01.880 --> 0:29:05.600 going um and everyone to some degree reacts slightly differently. 0:29:05.640 --> 0:29:08.240 But for the average person, I would say a few 0:29:08.320 --> 0:29:11.920 days UM is ideal. You know, but there's so many 0:29:12.080 --> 0:29:14.760 you know, nowadays, people's time is often so limited and 0:29:14.760 --> 0:29:16.040 they're like, oh, well, I'd love to do that, but 0:29:16.080 --> 0:29:17.560 I don't have time. I want to do this trip 0:29:17.600 --> 0:29:19.520 whatever it is, whether it's a hunting trip, climbate trip, 0:29:19.600 --> 0:29:22.280 or whatever. And so you know, that's why you hear 0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:24.520 about these things is because it's a lack of time. 0:29:24.640 --> 0:29:28.000 People go, they charge up into the mountains and then 0:29:28.080 --> 0:29:30.040 they end up getting a cute mountain sickness or something 0:29:30.080 --> 0:29:31.600 like that. You know, they got a headache, and the 0:29:31.680 --> 0:29:34.360 only thing you can do when that happens is go down. 0:29:35.040 --> 0:29:38.200 You know, Yeah, I can. You can. There's no drug 0:29:38.400 --> 0:29:41.000 you can. I mean, you can medicate ahead of time, 0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:42.720 although I'm not really a fan of that type of thing, 0:29:42.840 --> 0:29:44.640 that the best thing to do is give yourself time. 0:29:45.200 --> 0:29:47.160 If it's a mild case, sometimes you can stay put, 0:29:47.240 --> 0:29:49.520 drink a lot of water, keep yourself hydrated, and you 0:29:49.560 --> 0:29:52.000 can sort of get over it. Does that usually happen 0:29:52.080 --> 0:29:56.600 like above, Like, yeah, that's a pretty good. I've I've 0:29:57.280 --> 0:30:00.800 hunted quite a bit in Montana, for word a seven 0:30:00.840 --> 0:30:03.960 thousand feet and people were like, oh man, you're gonna 0:30:04.000 --> 0:30:07.320 have to worry about altitude. And it never has affected 0:30:07.320 --> 0:30:11.920 me that much. But in Colorado last week, we we 0:30:12.200 --> 0:30:14.800 the town we stayed in was over ten thousands exactly, 0:30:15.080 --> 0:30:18.640 and uh yeah, it wouldn't have crushed me. And I 0:30:18.800 --> 0:30:23.280 try not to take too much personal note of physical ailments. 0:30:23.280 --> 0:30:24.959 I'm trying not to give it too much attention. So 0:30:25.040 --> 0:30:27.240 if I hadn't, I probably would just have been like, man, 0:30:27.280 --> 0:30:30.760 I don't feel great, like but I recognize what was 0:30:30.800 --> 0:30:33.320 happening and I and I actually didn't feel good for 0:30:33.360 --> 0:30:35.520 about a day. Yeah, and then but then the next 0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:38.120 day that's pretty much fine. And it's just because you 0:30:38.160 --> 0:30:40.600 gave yourself that night. You know that the old adage 0:30:40.800 --> 0:30:43.480 with climbers, but this can apply to anyone traveling into 0:30:43.520 --> 0:30:45.480 that terrain is you climb high and you sleep low, 0:30:46.280 --> 0:30:48.240 and so that's what you want to do. Um And 0:30:48.280 --> 0:30:50.160 so even if you're an elk hunter, you know, if 0:30:50.200 --> 0:30:52.280 you're going up into the mountains, if you want to 0:30:52.320 --> 0:30:54.560 scout or hunt or whatever, you're gonna go check out 0:30:54.640 --> 0:30:57.440 ridges to glass, whatever it may be. If you can 0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:01.160 go back down the mountain and sleep at a lower elevation, 0:31:01.200 --> 0:31:03.400 and that's going to do a better job of acclimating 0:31:03.440 --> 0:31:05.320 you and you're gonna feel better. Of course, you've got 0:31:05.320 --> 0:31:07.560 to travel more, and so you gotta put the work 0:31:07.600 --> 0:31:11.000 into it. But if you have a mule, that's right, 0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:16.360 he doesn't work. Yeah, I've had altitude sickness. It's terrible. Yeah, 0:31:16.680 --> 0:31:22.720 you got altitude sickness moving to northwest Arkansas from I 0:31:22.800 --> 0:31:26.720 still can't I still can't breathe. No, I went from 0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:30.440 Texas to Colorado and it killed me. Yeah. I didn't 0:31:30.480 --> 0:31:33.440 miss a morning or evening hunt, but I felt terrible 0:31:33.520 --> 0:31:36.760 and just slept every moment that I could pretty much 0:31:36.760 --> 0:31:40.760 guarantee you had cupte mountain sickness. And then I'm chugging 0:31:40.880 --> 0:31:43.240 pepto and drinking as much water as I could, and 0:31:43.320 --> 0:31:45.600 I didn't eat for three or four days. It's just 0:31:46.040 --> 0:31:48.800 I didn't want to. Um, this is not a topic 0:31:48.840 --> 0:31:54.720 switch slightly different area of mountaineering. Uh. My daughter met 0:31:54.760 --> 0:31:59.640 Alex okay the other day she uh, Mr Fred it 0:31:59.720 --> 0:32:03.360 was a dam deal, but she met Alex Handlda. What 0:32:03.400 --> 0:32:06.160 do you think of that guy? I think a lot 0:32:06.240 --> 0:32:09.840 of them. You know, he doesn't uh, he's very aware 0:32:10.200 --> 0:32:12.960 that what he's doing is about a dangerous as you could. 0:32:13.040 --> 0:32:15.440 You know, for someone who didn't know Alex Handld, tell 0:32:15.480 --> 0:32:17.840 him who is. Yeah. So Alex Handld is a sponsored 0:32:17.880 --> 0:32:20.240 North Face athlete and he's widely considered to be the 0:32:20.280 --> 0:32:23.040 best free soloist rock climber that's ever lived. And what 0:32:23.120 --> 0:32:26.800 that means is is he climbs very large rock vertical 0:32:26.880 --> 0:32:30.280 faces without any type of equipment or protection to keep 0:32:30.360 --> 0:32:33.000 himself from falling. So he doesn't use ropes or anything 0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:36.920 like that. So he's uh, you know, there's many films 0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:42.680 out there about him. You can look climb He's you know, 0:32:42.720 --> 0:32:45.000 he's the first big one he did that got him famous. 0:32:45.080 --> 0:32:47.880 Was half done in Yosemite, but he's done El Capitan, 0:32:48.120 --> 0:32:51.440 He's done all over the world. He's done. He's just 0:32:51.520 --> 0:32:57.320 climbing a rock with Yeah, I mean athletically, there's almost 0:32:57.400 --> 0:33:01.239 no comparison in terms of what he has accomplished. You know. 0:33:01.360 --> 0:33:04.960 But but you know if you saw okay here when 0:33:05.080 --> 0:33:07.720 when my daughter showed she had a picture, he was 0:33:07.760 --> 0:33:11.920 at the capital actually in d C. And uh, he's 0:33:11.960 --> 0:33:17.840 like an unimpressive guy. Yeah, he's like five ten. Maybe 0:33:18.080 --> 0:33:21.719 he's a linking guy. I mean very fit obviously, but 0:33:21.800 --> 0:33:24.440 like he's you know, got on a T shirt and 0:33:24.520 --> 0:33:26.640 some shorts walking around. You couldn't pick him out of 0:33:26.680 --> 0:33:31.360 a crowd. He's not you know, he's just as a 0:33:31.360 --> 0:33:36.000 world class So, um, it's I would say the number 0:33:36.040 --> 0:33:39.840 one thing is mentally he is like he his mind 0:33:40.120 --> 0:33:45.560 is um, yeah, he's very different. Um there's actually they 0:33:45.560 --> 0:33:48.360 do some some kind of medical research and one on 0:33:48.480 --> 0:33:53.920 him and that and he's he doesn't still yeah, he 0:33:53.920 --> 0:33:56.080 he doesn't respond to stress and he doesn't get like 0:33:56.200 --> 0:33:58.320 endorphin released like the rest of us do when he 0:33:58.360 --> 0:34:02.120 gets in normal situation aations that would normally cause stress. 0:34:02.160 --> 0:34:05.240 So he can keep himself much under much more under 0:34:05.240 --> 0:34:08.360 control than the average person when he's in like really 0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:12.920 dangerous situations. So does that mean that it's really like 0:34:13.000 --> 0:34:15.359 on the mountain a lot of what you would be 0:34:15.400 --> 0:34:19.120 doing is really not a physical challenge, like your body 0:34:19.200 --> 0:34:21.839 could do it, but your mind. I mean there's some 0:34:21.920 --> 0:34:24.200 of that, but the stuff he's doing, no, it's like 0:34:24.440 --> 0:34:28.919 only I mean, I've been rock climbing over twenty years. 0:34:29.000 --> 0:34:32.800 I couldn't hope to do to even even with ropes, 0:34:32.840 --> 0:34:35.680 even on my best day, I couldn't climb what he's 0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:38.960 climbing with all the equipment in the world, let alone 0:34:39.440 --> 0:34:41.880 free solo it without a rope or anything like that. 0:34:41.920 --> 0:34:45.839 I mean, he's astonishing. I mean his finger holds are crazy. Yeah, 0:34:45.840 --> 0:34:50.840 I mean, what's It's unreal. But at the same time, 0:34:51.040 --> 0:34:53.920 he doesn't condone what he does. He doesn't recommend that. 0:34:54.239 --> 0:34:58.600 He's very aware that it is dangerous and um, you know, 0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:01.239 it's a choice that he's made for himself. It's how 0:35:01.280 --> 0:35:03.920 he's decided to live his life. And you know, uh, 0:35:04.080 --> 0:35:06.520 I have a lot of respect for someone that knows 0:35:06.600 --> 0:35:09.200 themselves well enough to say, you know what, this is 0:35:09.239 --> 0:35:10.920 who I am and I'm willing to die for it. 0:35:11.320 --> 0:35:14.719 And as long as he's not prescribing other people to, 0:35:15.280 --> 0:35:17.680 you know, take that up than that he has every 0:35:17.760 --> 0:35:22.160 right to in my opinion. So we've watched many of 0:35:22.160 --> 0:35:25.719 those films with him, and it seems it's it's pretty incredible. 0:35:25.840 --> 0:35:32.319 It's really incredible. M hm. Well, okay, you've you told us, 0:35:32.440 --> 0:35:36.680 you told us your scary story. That was good. Um, 0:35:36.760 --> 0:35:41.359 let's talk about let's talk about what is bushcraft. Yeah. 0:35:41.400 --> 0:35:44.439 So I would describe bushcraft and it's in its most 0:35:44.560 --> 0:35:48.239 basic form as the knowledge of nature and how to 0:35:49.040 --> 0:35:53.719 interact with it on a personal level. That can mean 0:35:53.760 --> 0:35:56.160 a lot of different things, though some people look at 0:35:56.160 --> 0:35:58.520 it in terms of survival skills. That's what I was 0:35:58.560 --> 0:36:01.760 going to say. I would have thought most people think about, 0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:06.080 you know, things like that. Um. Other people have a 0:36:06.080 --> 0:36:08.759 spin on it a little bit different. Um, maybe like 0:36:08.880 --> 0:36:13.320 ancestral knowledge, you know, so early people or first people's 0:36:14.040 --> 0:36:18.799 type knowledge. So some people, um focus on a specific 0:36:18.920 --> 0:36:23.480 skill set. Maybe that was more common to a particular 0:36:23.840 --> 0:36:27.239 Native American group of people or something like that. But 0:36:27.400 --> 0:36:31.239 these days, you know, most people I think just have 0:36:31.320 --> 0:36:35.440 a general interest in like, you know, how to kind 0:36:35.480 --> 0:36:37.719 of no more and need less. I guess you could 0:36:37.719 --> 0:36:39.719 think of it now that's a that's a key part 0:36:39.719 --> 0:36:41.840 of it though, because I'm trying to find the difference 0:36:41.960 --> 0:36:47.000 in like what somebody would call bushcraft and what we 0:36:47.040 --> 0:36:50.920 would call going on a five day backpacking trips, like 0:36:51.040 --> 0:36:53.520 because you're talking about using the less you're talking about 0:36:53.520 --> 0:36:57.080 bushcraft would be like starting to fire without any kind 0:36:57.080 --> 0:37:00.239 of yes, an ignition stores well and it gets That's 0:37:00.280 --> 0:37:02.759 where he gets tricky, right, because some people would be 0:37:03.000 --> 0:37:07.439 would consider carrying like a magnesium fire steel and using 0:37:07.440 --> 0:37:10.719 the spini or knife, like, that's still bushcraft because what 0:37:10.840 --> 0:37:12.879 you did was you went to an eastern red cedar tree, 0:37:12.880 --> 0:37:14.880 you scraped off a bunch of bark, and you created 0:37:14.920 --> 0:37:18.239 tender from that. So there's still an element of knowledge 0:37:18.239 --> 0:37:20.560 and nature and how to harness that and harvest it 0:37:20.600 --> 0:37:23.640 in those types of things. But on it's it's more 0:37:24.880 --> 0:37:27.440 kind of pure level. I guess you could say, um, 0:37:27.520 --> 0:37:30.360 you're gonna go out and you're gonna harvest um a 0:37:31.239 --> 0:37:33.960 you know, a mullen stock, and then you're gonna go 0:37:34.040 --> 0:37:36.080 get a piece of cotton wood for a hearth board 0:37:36.120 --> 0:37:39.719 and you're gonna create a hand drill a type of 0:37:39.800 --> 0:37:46.160 tree plant. Yeah, yeah, mullin is a it's a it's 0:37:46.160 --> 0:37:49.160 a plant. It has a large basil rosette at the bottom. 0:37:49.160 --> 0:37:51.759 It's a it's a medicinal plant. As well. It's there's 0:37:51.800 --> 0:37:53.880 a handful more than a handful, but there's a lot 0:37:53.960 --> 0:37:57.759 of different plants that can provide you with multiple types 0:37:57.760 --> 0:38:00.359 of resources. So Mullen like the lead. Is it real 0:38:00.440 --> 0:38:02.759 soft and fuzzy. A lot of people think it's lambs here, 0:38:02.800 --> 0:38:05.279 but it actually gets much bigger. Arkansas grows all over 0:38:05.280 --> 0:38:07.160 the place here in artists. So we went out, walked around. 0:38:07.239 --> 0:38:09.959 We probably find some um, but the leaves get quite 0:38:10.000 --> 0:38:13.440 large and they're growing around basil rosette um and that 0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:15.600 if you dry, you can make tea with it. It's 0:38:15.640 --> 0:38:17.960 good for respiratory omets and things like that. UM. It 0:38:17.960 --> 0:38:20.200 actually makes great toilet paper if you need it for 0:38:20.239 --> 0:38:22.520 that use. In fact, it's got a nickname Cowboy toilet 0:38:22.520 --> 0:38:25.719 paper because it's so it's real soft um. But the 0:38:25.840 --> 0:38:28.839 stock that it puts up UM can get quite high 0:38:28.880 --> 0:38:31.120 and has a cone of yellow flowers at the top 0:38:31.160 --> 0:38:34.600 of it. And when it dries it becomes very woody. 0:38:34.760 --> 0:38:37.680 You know, it's soften and it bends too easy when 0:38:37.719 --> 0:38:39.719 it's green and it's got too much moisture in it. 0:38:39.760 --> 0:38:42.520 But as it drives, you can cut that down UM. 0:38:42.560 --> 0:38:45.200 And that's your hand drill or your spindle um that 0:38:45.360 --> 0:38:47.400 you would use, and then you need a heart board, 0:38:47.520 --> 0:38:52.719 so you could find uh something like locally. Umbrella magnolia 0:38:52.800 --> 0:38:55.120 would be a good source of cotton wood is one 0:38:55.120 --> 0:38:57.000 of my favorite ones, but there's many things you could 0:38:57.080 --> 0:39:02.040 use and um, So you need uh particular types of 0:39:02.120 --> 0:39:05.160 materials that you know. It's less important that you know 0:39:05.239 --> 0:39:07.799 what species you're looking for and more important that you 0:39:07.880 --> 0:39:12.000 understand the characteristics that are needed to make it work properly. 0:39:12.440 --> 0:39:14.800 So I know you know from doing from having a 0:39:14.840 --> 0:39:17.279 lot of experience doing that type of thing. I need 0:39:17.320 --> 0:39:19.919 woods that are low density because if it's too hard, 0:39:19.960 --> 0:39:22.759 it's going to require too much pressure and speed in 0:39:22.840 --> 0:39:24.920 order to bring the temperature up where I need it 0:39:24.920 --> 0:39:27.480 to get it to right. So that's one thing. Obviously, 0:39:27.480 --> 0:39:29.400 you need very low moisture content. If there's a lot 0:39:29.440 --> 0:39:31.120 of moisture in it, you can it's gonna be fighting 0:39:31.120 --> 0:39:33.520 you the whole time. And you need low resin content 0:39:33.560 --> 0:39:35.239 because if there's a lot of reson in it when 0:39:35.280 --> 0:39:37.000 you're starting to do it, it's gonna kind of gum 0:39:37.000 --> 0:39:38.279 it up a little bit. So you don't want to 0:39:38.320 --> 0:39:40.239 use the real sappy woods for that type of thing. 0:39:40.640 --> 0:39:42.880 So you know, lots of different things can work, but 0:39:42.920 --> 0:39:45.359 it's just having that knowledge and understanding of you know 0:39:45.400 --> 0:39:47.839 what I need to get it done. So that would 0:39:47.880 --> 0:39:50.600 be one example of bushcraft that I think we'll paying 0:39:50.600 --> 0:39:53.160 a picture for. You know what we're talking about? What 0:39:53.480 --> 0:39:59.160 else like like um like navigation absolute out technology? Yeah, 0:39:59.160 --> 0:40:01.399 I mean it's going to again that runs the game 0:40:01.400 --> 0:40:04.000 at you know nowadays, you know most of us are 0:40:04.040 --> 0:40:05.800 walking around with some kind of phone in our pocket 0:40:05.840 --> 0:40:07.600 and we got on X on there, right, And that's 0:40:07.640 --> 0:40:10.640 a great tool. I use it myself, I recommend it. Well, 0:40:10.719 --> 0:40:15.239 if you want to take your pack rap bushcraft on Instagram, 0:40:15.320 --> 0:40:19.840 you can't have on situation I'm want to use or 0:40:19.840 --> 0:40:22.279 whatever I can. And and it again it comes down 0:40:22.280 --> 0:40:24.319 to like what are you doing out there? Like? Can 0:40:24.360 --> 0:40:27.120 I navigate by the stars? Yeah? I know I can 0:40:27.160 --> 0:40:31.200 do some of it, um, but what am I out 0:40:31.200 --> 0:40:32.719 here to do? Am I out here to spend my 0:40:32.800 --> 0:40:35.360 time learning navigation? Or am I out here trying to 0:40:35.400 --> 0:40:37.880 get after an animal? Right? Well, I want to spend 0:40:37.880 --> 0:40:40.480 my trime trying to track this animal down and harvest it. 0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:44.800 So yeah, I could do you know, navigation by hand, 0:40:45.480 --> 0:40:48.880 but I would rather spend my time in other ways. 0:40:48.960 --> 0:40:51.400 And so a good example, you know, kind of happy 0:40:51.440 --> 0:40:53.239 medium and one of the things that pack raft that 0:40:53.320 --> 0:40:57.000 I teach classes on his old school navigation skills with 0:40:57.040 --> 0:41:00.359 a regular compass and a topographical map, and that that 0:41:00.440 --> 0:41:04.000 to me has a very appropriate place, um in a 0:41:04.040 --> 0:41:08.880 sportsman's tool kit, because compass and a map don't require 0:41:08.920 --> 0:41:11.840 any power. You know, iPhone runs out of batteries unless 0:41:11.840 --> 0:41:13.920 you got a battery backup or something like that. At 0:41:13.960 --> 0:41:17.640 that point, it's right, so you know, knowing how to 0:41:18.320 --> 0:41:21.960 use terrain association, read a topographical map, and orient that 0:41:22.000 --> 0:41:24.400 map with a compass so that you can keep yourself 0:41:24.560 --> 0:41:26.880 you know where you need to be. Um, those are 0:41:26.960 --> 0:41:31.240 good examples of what I would definitely classify as bushcraft skills. 0:41:31.400 --> 0:41:32.919 How long would it take you to start a fire 0:41:32.960 --> 0:41:35.640 if we walked outside? You know, I don't know what's 0:41:35.680 --> 0:41:37.279 out there. I haven't looked around yet. I mean, if 0:41:37.280 --> 0:41:38.640 I got real lucky, I might be able to do 0:41:38.640 --> 0:41:41.240 it in a half hour. Yeah, I mean, but that 0:41:41.239 --> 0:41:44.720 that would require something. Could you start a fire? Okay? 0:41:45.040 --> 0:41:49.839 If I if I if you were with me ten 0:41:49.920 --> 0:41:52.440 times and you had a thirty minute window each of 0:41:52.440 --> 0:41:54.960 those ten times in different environments here in Arkansas? How 0:41:54.960 --> 0:41:56.480 many times would you be able to start a fire 0:41:56.520 --> 0:41:58.640 in thirty minute? In thirty minutes, I mean, is it 0:41:58.719 --> 0:42:00.480 like a for sure deal? I mean it's like no, 0:42:01.000 --> 0:42:04.920 there's so many variables. Okay, so timey year? What has 0:42:04.960 --> 0:42:06.600 the real dry? I mean I could probably start a 0:42:06.600 --> 0:42:08.960 fire out there by Clark Rocks and that was my 0:42:09.080 --> 0:42:12.120 next thing. What has the weather been like? I mean, um, 0:42:12.239 --> 0:42:16.360 has it rained? So there there's nothing that is I 0:42:16.360 --> 0:42:19.160 guess what I'm getting at is like how did native 0:42:19.239 --> 0:42:23.719 people's or backwoodsman that had none of our modern technology? 0:42:23.760 --> 0:42:26.680 I mean, did they just go long periods of time 0:42:26.719 --> 0:42:30.600 without fire because they couldn't start a fight? Is there? 0:42:30.719 --> 0:42:35.600 Or is there bushcraft? Way? That's just like almost d 0:42:36.560 --> 0:42:40.400 um there is. But again, even within those primitive skills 0:42:40.400 --> 0:42:43.680 and bushcraft and things like that, they still had tool kits. Right, 0:42:43.840 --> 0:42:45.800 So if I'm gonna spend the time to craft a 0:42:45.880 --> 0:42:49.319 fire kit, and like I mean right now, if you want, 0:42:49.320 --> 0:42:51.160 I got one of my truck and it's a good kit. 0:42:51.360 --> 0:42:53.520 I know, like if if I were to use that, 0:42:53.840 --> 0:42:56.239 I have a fire in ten minutes. He carols around 0:42:56.239 --> 0:43:01.040 in case he wants to start right. Um, but Um, 0:43:01.080 --> 0:43:03.000 if I have to go out into the woods, there's 0:43:03.000 --> 0:43:05.400 just so many variables when it comes to harvesting. And 0:43:05.400 --> 0:43:08.680 you maybe so with your fire kit though you could 0:43:09.080 --> 0:43:13.160 you could start a fire and predictably, yes, so you 0:43:13.200 --> 0:43:16.360 could if we were just out here and it was 0:43:17.719 --> 0:43:20.239 and we were trying to get from here to Oklahoma. 0:43:20.440 --> 0:43:22.680 And but the differences is that that is a tool 0:43:22.760 --> 0:43:26.000 kit that I crafted my hand from my knowledge of 0:43:26.120 --> 0:43:29.879 the environment and how to use it, right, whereas instead 0:43:30.000 --> 0:43:32.520 of you know, carrying a big ladder in my pocket. 0:43:33.040 --> 0:43:35.040 And again I'm not here to knock anyone that does that. 0:43:35.040 --> 0:43:37.160 In fact, I would encourage you to do that, because 0:43:37.160 --> 0:43:42.400 it's smart. You're prepared, right, Um. But you know the 0:43:42.400 --> 0:43:44.160 other the other way to look at it and the 0:43:44.200 --> 0:43:47.120 way that I think about it, because I love sharing 0:43:47.120 --> 0:43:50.839 these skills and teaching these skills, Um, but I do 0:43:50.920 --> 0:43:54.120 it less because I think that you're gonna need as 0:43:54.280 --> 0:43:56.759 a as a survival skill one day. Like I hope 0:43:56.800 --> 0:43:58.759 that never happens to anybody. I hope no one's ever 0:43:58.880 --> 0:44:01.920 on a hunting trip and it goes ouphon. Yeah. Yeah. 0:44:01.960 --> 0:44:05.719 But what I can guarantee is that if I, if 0:44:05.760 --> 0:44:07.799 we I have a class and you come and you 0:44:07.920 --> 0:44:10.839 learn how to do a bow drill or hand drill fire. 0:44:11.600 --> 0:44:14.160 The first time you're on your own and you make 0:44:14.160 --> 0:44:17.799 a campfire with that method, you will never enjoy a 0:44:17.800 --> 0:44:20.560 camp fire as much as that one you've made that way, 0:44:20.640 --> 0:44:24.640 because it enriched your experience and you are more connected 0:44:24.680 --> 0:44:28.120 to the land around you and your understanding of how 0:44:28.160 --> 0:44:31.080 to look after yourself. And that is why I like 0:44:31.200 --> 0:44:33.359 to do it. And that for me, is why I 0:44:33.440 --> 0:44:36.040 have gone down this path of studying these skills. Is 0:44:36.080 --> 0:44:39.880 because uh, I just enjoy my time out there that 0:44:39.960 --> 0:44:43.600 much more. Yeah, but I really like that, and I think, 0:44:44.040 --> 0:44:47.000 you know, it's kind of ironic in a way, like 0:44:47.280 --> 0:44:51.160 if you were to you know, we have this thing 0:44:51.280 --> 0:44:53.560 and that's I have this thing to me where I 0:44:53.560 --> 0:44:56.719 I love hunting because it connects me to something like 0:44:56.800 --> 0:45:02.000 this primitive human experience in a modern time. If you 0:45:02.040 --> 0:45:04.560 were to, if we could go back and talk to 0:45:04.800 --> 0:45:08.359 some primitive human hunters at some point and say, hey, 0:45:08.360 --> 0:45:10.640 there's gonna be some hunters in the future that won't 0:45:10.640 --> 0:45:13.359 know how to start fires the way you do. I mean, 0:45:14.080 --> 0:45:16.440 like they would probably be surprised at that I do 0:45:16.560 --> 0:45:18.120 not know how to start a fire. I mean I 0:45:18.560 --> 0:45:21.080 might bumble around. I mean, I know the concept of 0:45:21.120 --> 0:45:24.719 starting to fire without a big lighter, but in general, 0:45:25.719 --> 0:45:28.799 a lot of the stuff that you're talking about a 0:45:28.840 --> 0:45:31.520 lot of hunters wouldn't be familiar with. And and obviously 0:45:31.520 --> 0:45:34.520 it's a it's a utilitarian issue. It's like we're focusing 0:45:34.560 --> 0:45:40.479 on different aspects of our mission. Like, but I think 0:45:40.600 --> 0:45:43.359 what you're saying is a really valid point that just 0:45:43.400 --> 0:45:46.600 the the knowledge of these things, uh, like how to 0:45:46.680 --> 0:45:50.600 start a fire adds value and adds a depth to 0:45:51.840 --> 0:45:55.000 the experience and fire. You know, I've got a book 0:45:55.239 --> 0:46:00.600 right up there called Catching Fire. Fascinating book some and 0:46:00.680 --> 0:46:03.640 it's uh and the whole premise of it is is 0:46:03.680 --> 0:46:10.680 that fire is actually what um helped humans, you know, 0:46:11.960 --> 0:46:14.839 become what we are because of cooked food. I don't 0:46:14.840 --> 0:46:17.120 think there's any doubt about it. Yeah, and and it 0:46:17.320 --> 0:46:20.000 it's pretty fascinating. So like our connection to fire. And 0:46:20.000 --> 0:46:23.040 then the fact that Clay Nukem really doesn't know how 0:46:23.120 --> 0:46:25.839 or isn't it prepared to start a fire without technology, 0:46:25.920 --> 0:46:28.799 it's kind of hypocritical almost, you know. Again, it's it 0:46:28.920 --> 0:46:31.319 just comes down to what you got time for, right, 0:46:31.520 --> 0:46:35.320 I mean, in the first world, problem. I read somewhere 0:46:35.360 --> 0:46:38.839 where U and one of the books was reading. Heck, 0:46:38.880 --> 0:46:41.279 it was in that book Catching Fire. Uh. They were 0:46:41.280 --> 0:46:46.680 talking about how these African tribes would carry around uh 0:46:46.960 --> 0:46:51.560 basically fire embers for days. When they moved, they would 0:46:51.600 --> 0:46:55.320 like carry a stick, a smoldering stick, so they wouldn't 0:46:55.360 --> 0:46:57.640 have to start a new fire. You So like in 0:46:57.719 --> 0:47:01.160 North America, that's commonly called it an apache matt okay 0:47:01.280 --> 0:47:04.160 and so um. And there's obviously depends on where you go. 0:47:04.239 --> 0:47:05.759 They got a different name for it. Right with the 0:47:05.800 --> 0:47:08.680 concepts the same where you remove embers from the fire 0:47:09.120 --> 0:47:11.560 and you put some punk wood or something that will 0:47:11.600 --> 0:47:14.120 smolder for long periods of time, and you wrap that 0:47:14.200 --> 0:47:16.920 in a container which will often be barred or grasses 0:47:17.000 --> 0:47:19.920 or something um. And then at that point you can 0:47:20.000 --> 0:47:22.560 basically just like sometimes you can swing it through the air. 0:47:22.800 --> 0:47:25.080 You just want to keep enough oxygen in that thing 0:47:25.320 --> 0:47:28.080 so that those embers continue to smolder. You can walk 0:47:28.120 --> 0:47:31.520 for miles with something like that. And then we start there. 0:47:31.640 --> 0:47:36.600 And it's much more uh or much less uh energy 0:47:36.680 --> 0:47:38.719 required to do so, right, because if I have to 0:47:38.719 --> 0:47:41.719 get my kid out again and expend a bunch of 0:47:41.840 --> 0:47:46.680 energy and effort into creating an ember um and depending 0:47:46.719 --> 0:47:49.640 up on what conditions are, that's gonna be a lot more. Uh. 0:47:50.560 --> 0:47:53.480 You just effort exerted, right, And if I've already got 0:47:53.520 --> 0:47:55.840 these embers, now all I need is tender and I 0:47:55.920 --> 0:47:59.520 put those and I can blow it back into flame again. 0:47:59.560 --> 0:48:03.480 It's just just back to fundamentals in terms of knowledge 0:48:03.480 --> 0:48:08.280 of nature and how to use resources around you. Yeah. Well, um, 0:48:08.280 --> 0:48:11.600 it's something that I think you're known for, especially on 0:48:11.640 --> 0:48:13.960 your Instagram page what i'd see all the time. I 0:48:14.000 --> 0:48:16.600 think it's cool and and and I have some knowledge 0:48:16.640 --> 0:48:18.960 of flint napping, but you do a lot of flint 0:48:19.040 --> 0:48:22.040 napping and making stone projectile points that you're hunting with 0:48:22.440 --> 0:48:25.520 I do. Uh. Yeah, it's it's definitely become a passion 0:48:25.600 --> 0:48:29.360 of mine. Where did you learn that? So I first 0:48:29.480 --> 0:48:34.480 got interested in it and probably about nineteen seven and 0:48:34.560 --> 0:48:37.040 I my first year of college, I moved to East 0:48:37.040 --> 0:48:39.400 Tennessee and I went to University of Tennessee. And uh, 0:48:39.560 --> 0:48:41.320 mainly because I was a kid and I just wanted 0:48:41.320 --> 0:48:42.799 to leave home, you know what I mean. I just 0:48:42.840 --> 0:48:45.359 wanted to get out and do something different. And for 0:48:45.400 --> 0:48:47.840 no other reason then be kind of because it sounded interesting. 0:48:47.880 --> 0:48:51.400 I took a class called prehistoric archaeology, and I had 0:48:52.000 --> 0:48:55.000 changed your life. It changed my life. Um, I had 0:48:55.080 --> 0:48:57.640 no idea who my professor was going to be, but 0:48:57.680 --> 0:48:59.760 it turned out it was a guy named Jan Schimmuck, 0:49:00.560 --> 0:49:03.160 and he's like a world class archaeologist. He goes to 0:49:03.320 --> 0:49:08.280 France and excavates Neanderthal uh graves and that that type 0:49:08.280 --> 0:49:12.480 of thing. Fascinating guy. And he was showing these images 0:49:13.280 --> 0:49:17.920 of you know, various levels of early man uh creating 0:49:17.960 --> 0:49:20.680 these stone tools. And of course I knew about their 0:49:20.760 --> 0:49:23.080 heads and stuff at that point, but I never knew 0:49:23.080 --> 0:49:27.360 how they were made until that point. And um, you know, 0:49:27.719 --> 0:49:29.960 I got really interested in it, and I started trying 0:49:30.000 --> 0:49:31.799 to learn on my own. But of course, back then, 0:49:32.440 --> 0:49:36.120 you know, there wasn't hardly any internet, let alone you know, 0:49:36.560 --> 0:49:38.600 YouTube and stuff where you can go learn how to 0:49:38.640 --> 0:49:40.719 do this stuff. So I fumbled around for a while 0:49:40.840 --> 0:49:43.360 and when wasn't any good at it. And I tried it, 0:49:43.480 --> 0:49:46.319 you know, on and off, for probably a year or two, um, 0:49:46.600 --> 0:49:48.040 and then I kind of put it down for a while. 0:49:48.120 --> 0:49:49.799 And of course I was in college. You get into 0:49:49.920 --> 0:49:54.920 whatever you get into, right, and when I, uh, when 0:49:54.960 --> 0:49:57.239 I decided. So fast forward a little ahead, a little 0:49:57.239 --> 0:49:59.799 bit of time. You know, I well, I guess, first 0:49:59.840 --> 0:50:02.560 go back. I started learning how to shoot bow when 0:50:02.560 --> 0:50:04.759 I was probably about nine years old. My dad gave 0:50:04.800 --> 0:50:07.560 me a compound bow and I was shooting it instinctively 0:50:07.840 --> 0:50:12.920 with no release, no sycs or anything, totally totally um. 0:50:13.160 --> 0:50:15.800 And so I hunted that way, you know, quite a 0:50:15.840 --> 0:50:17.879 bit through high school and stuff with firearms as well, 0:50:17.960 --> 0:50:21.000 but but that way, and then UM put the bow 0:50:21.080 --> 0:50:24.440 down for a while. I was in college. Well from 0:50:24.480 --> 0:50:26.279 near the end of college, I decided I want to 0:50:26.360 --> 0:50:29.239 start bow hunting again. And when I picked a bow 0:50:29.360 --> 0:50:31.520 up again, as when I started having an interesting like, 0:50:31.600 --> 0:50:33.640 oh yeah, I remember when I was you know, flint 0:50:33.719 --> 0:50:36.200 napping and that sort of thing. And again I kind 0:50:36.239 --> 0:50:38.359 of messed around with it on and off for a while. 0:50:38.400 --> 0:50:43.080 But about four or five years ago, um, partially because 0:50:43.239 --> 0:50:48.759 you know, of life changes and things. I've got a 0:50:48.800 --> 0:50:53.560 couple of kids and family. Well, I couldn't I couldn't 0:50:53.880 --> 0:50:56.200 be gone as much, right, I couldn't be gone on 0:50:56.360 --> 0:51:00.040 these expeditions and these things. I needed to find things it, 0:51:00.239 --> 0:51:03.160 um I was interested in, but that I could do, 0:51:03.560 --> 0:51:07.160 and you know, in proximity. So that's when I really 0:51:07.200 --> 0:51:10.040 started investing a lot more time in these primitive skills. 0:51:10.680 --> 0:51:13.759 And so, you know, I asked myself, I was like, 0:51:13.800 --> 0:51:15.840 where are you gonna keep fooling around with us? Or 0:51:15.840 --> 0:51:17.400 are you going to commit and learn how to do it? 0:51:17.480 --> 0:51:20.399 Because that's what it is. It's committing, right, And it's 0:51:20.480 --> 0:51:21.880 like anything in life, what do you want to be 0:51:21.960 --> 0:51:26.240 good at? Until you commit, you're never gonna reach your potential. 0:51:26.880 --> 0:51:30.239 And so, um, that's what I did was I was like, okay, um, 0:51:30.440 --> 0:51:32.279 either need to put this away or I need to 0:51:32.360 --> 0:51:34.200 do it. And so at that point, it was just 0:51:34.320 --> 0:51:36.840 like everyone. I could talk to, everything, I could read, everything, 0:51:36.880 --> 0:51:40.800 I could watch, and you know, and I still not 0:51:40.960 --> 0:51:43.360 And I don't mean to act like I'm an expert 0:51:43.400 --> 0:51:46.320 by any means, because I still have, I mean, so 0:51:46.520 --> 0:51:50.680 much to learn. There's really no end too. Uh. You 0:51:50.719 --> 0:51:53.000 know what you can learn when it comes to creating 0:51:53.080 --> 0:51:55.640 stone tools, and there's all kind of kinds of different 0:51:55.680 --> 0:51:58.400 technologies and ways that you can go about doing it. 0:51:58.520 --> 0:52:02.239 But what I have kind of come to, um kind 0:52:02.280 --> 0:52:04.040 of I guess who you want to say specialize in 0:52:04.640 --> 0:52:08.000 is creating uh, you know, simple stone arrowheads for the 0:52:08.080 --> 0:52:11.799 purpose of bow hunting. You know, some people get into 0:52:11.800 --> 0:52:13.759 make night blades, and I've done a little bit of that, 0:52:13.960 --> 0:52:18.480 but predominantly, um, you know, I'm trying to recreate functional 0:52:18.600 --> 0:52:20.759 points that you know, that I can actually carry out. 0:52:20.840 --> 0:52:24.440 You make some beautiful stuff, Thank you very much, UM 0:52:25.160 --> 0:52:28.360 And uh yeah, it's just an endless uh source of 0:52:28.400 --> 0:52:30.880 fascination for you know what you just said. I like 0:52:31.200 --> 0:52:34.280 what you did there as a as a life strategy. 0:52:34.600 --> 0:52:36.320 You went into a new season of life. So you 0:52:36.360 --> 0:52:39.440 were this like adventure like traveling, traveling all over the 0:52:39.560 --> 0:52:43.920 world in some cases, and then you had a family 0:52:44.000 --> 0:52:46.480 and had the kids, couldn't couldn't do that as much 0:52:46.520 --> 0:52:49.719 of that stuff, and so you started dedicating yourself to 0:52:49.840 --> 0:52:51.520 some of this craft that you can learn at home. 0:52:51.840 --> 0:52:55.719 I identify with that because I feel like inside of 0:52:55.800 --> 0:52:59.560 people there is this like there's this like space that 0:52:59.719 --> 0:53:03.680 we want to fill up with and for us and 0:53:03.760 --> 0:53:06.000 for the people listening to the podcasts probably want to 0:53:06.120 --> 0:53:11.960 fill up with outdoor adventure related just you know, something 0:53:12.080 --> 0:53:14.640 inside of that field. And I find that you don't 0:53:14.640 --> 0:53:18.360 always have to fill it with the most exciting, crazy 0:53:19.080 --> 0:53:22.799 extreme of what you're interested in to fulfill that thing 0:53:22.880 --> 0:53:27.000 inside of you. I mean, like, uh, and I've got 0:53:27.080 --> 0:53:29.799 some examples in my life of similar things when it's 0:53:29.840 --> 0:53:31.640 like I know, I can't go do that, but I 0:53:31.719 --> 0:53:35.480 can't do this and find real satisfaction in doing this thing. 0:53:35.800 --> 0:53:39.279 I mean, you know, for some guys, it's reloading ammunition. Yeah, yeah, 0:53:39.280 --> 0:53:42.360 you know. For for other guys it's it's it's time flies, 0:53:42.719 --> 0:53:44.319 yeah you know. I mean you think for a lot 0:53:44.360 --> 0:53:46.720 of guys, that's shooting bows. You know, in the outdoor industry, 0:53:46.800 --> 0:53:50.840 there's so much emphasis on like you scroll through Instagram, 0:53:50.960 --> 0:53:54.400 Facebook and all these influential hunters and non just hunters, 0:53:54.719 --> 0:53:56.640 like they're shooting their bow, shooting their bow, shooting their bow, 0:53:56.680 --> 0:54:00.080 shooting the ball. It's great to shoot your bow. I 0:54:00.160 --> 0:54:03.640 think people use that as a tool to just fill 0:54:03.719 --> 0:54:06.160 up that space inside of them because because you don't, 0:54:06.480 --> 0:54:08.600 you don't have to. I'm gonna get known as the 0:54:08.640 --> 0:54:10.600 guy that says you don't have to practice with your boat. 0:54:11.040 --> 0:54:12.759 I'm okay with that. You don't have to practice that 0:54:12.920 --> 0:54:14.680 much to be able to kill a deer at twenty yards, 0:54:15.200 --> 0:54:17.239 you know what I'm saying. But I but I think, 0:54:17.280 --> 0:54:20.760 and and then it kind of becomes like this major, major, 0:54:21.040 --> 0:54:25.480 massive focus, Like hitting a pie played at twenty yards 0:54:25.520 --> 0:54:28.640 of the compound boat is not the limiting factor of hunting. 0:54:29.280 --> 0:54:32.040 It's awesome that we like to shoot, and that becomes 0:54:32.120 --> 0:54:34.720 something that we like dial in. And there are certainly 0:54:34.800 --> 0:54:38.040 Western guys that are shooting animals at longer distance and 0:54:38.400 --> 0:54:40.640 and I are gonna kill more game because they're good 0:54:40.680 --> 0:54:44.560 shooters most of the time. Not though, yeah, irrelevant, But 0:54:44.680 --> 0:54:46.800 I like what you said there because I can identify 0:54:46.960 --> 0:54:50.360 with like dialing into something a little bit different. But 0:54:50.600 --> 0:54:55.759 that's building your repertoire of functionality, you know. And I 0:54:55.840 --> 0:54:58.480 don't want to create the image that I like, I'm 0:54:58.560 --> 0:55:01.160 I'm not walking out in the woods nothing building my 0:55:01.360 --> 0:55:03.480 arrows out there and then hunting, you know what I mean, 0:55:03.640 --> 0:55:06.920 Like that's a whole other thing. I mean. I have 0:55:07.400 --> 0:55:10.880 done some extended trips where I have I have walked 0:55:10.960 --> 0:55:13.839 out into the uh you know what I would say, 0:55:13.960 --> 0:55:16.880 very remote wilderness and carried very you know, no modern 0:55:16.960 --> 0:55:19.320 camping gear. I've gone out on trips with stone tools 0:55:19.400 --> 0:55:22.279 and things like that and tried to hunt. And I 0:55:22.360 --> 0:55:24.960 can tell you right now it's incredibly difficult if you 0:55:25.040 --> 0:55:26.759 think you're gonna go out there and do it. Um 0:55:27.000 --> 0:55:29.360 you know, you know what, with the with the backdrop 0:55:29.480 --> 0:55:32.440 of our modern lives, I think it's almost impossible to 0:55:32.560 --> 0:55:38.439 really replicate the drive and the necessity of living that way. 0:55:38.600 --> 0:55:40.400 Like we could we could go out and think that 0:55:40.560 --> 0:55:42.920 we could replicate exactly what it would be like to 0:55:43.000 --> 0:55:46.759 be a Native American and have no choice but to 0:55:46.880 --> 0:55:49.680 survive out there. But it is impossible to replicate that 0:55:49.840 --> 0:55:54.160 because we always have a backdrop. There's always something going on. Yeah, 0:55:54.280 --> 0:55:58.080 well there's always I mean, allow, yeah, I mean unless 0:55:58.239 --> 0:56:00.880 there was somebody that said, really, I will go in 0:56:00.960 --> 0:56:03.640 the woods and die like I'm not walking back to 0:56:03.680 --> 0:56:07.080 the truck, I mean, and nobody nobody says that. No, 0:56:07.360 --> 0:56:09.680 no one does. And I you know, I've tried to 0:56:09.719 --> 0:56:11.759 push it pretty hard. I mean I've done things where 0:56:11.760 --> 0:56:15.200 I lost over twenty pounds. Yeah, we're on that country 0:56:15.239 --> 0:56:17.160 trips because I was trying to do that exact thing. 0:56:17.920 --> 0:56:20.640 And uh, you know, you you walk out a little 0:56:20.760 --> 0:56:22.759 later looking like you were in a prison camp for 0:56:22.800 --> 0:56:26.240 a while, you know, and most people that's not very appealing, 0:56:26.400 --> 0:56:29.080 that's not it's not like a lot of fun. But 0:56:29.280 --> 0:56:31.480 you know, if you you know, you don't know what 0:56:31.560 --> 0:56:34.320 you're capable of unless you pull the trigger. Sometimes you 0:56:34.440 --> 0:56:38.400 can have figured out for yourself. That's cool man, Okay, 0:56:38.800 --> 0:56:40.200 flint nappy and I want to talk a little bit. 0:56:40.640 --> 0:56:43.640 Give it. Give us a just a like a short 0:56:44.560 --> 0:56:48.319 description of like how you would take like what kind 0:56:48.360 --> 0:56:53.080 of mariol how you would So we're working we're working 0:56:53.160 --> 0:56:55.480 with what most people call flint, but that can end 0:56:55.560 --> 0:56:59.759 up being it's some type of rock that fractures predictably 0:57:00.000 --> 0:57:03.920 through something called a hertzy and cone, and so glass 0:57:04.000 --> 0:57:06.680 will do that. You can use modern glass because it's 0:57:06.680 --> 0:57:14.520 an amorphous material. What kind of rock, it's a metamorphic Yeah, 0:57:14.600 --> 0:57:17.520 it can be like so for example, um, you know 0:57:17.720 --> 0:57:21.040 you've got obsidian, right, Like that was a very classic 0:57:21.200 --> 0:57:24.360 one that Native Americans would have mine from volcanic areas. Right, 0:57:24.400 --> 0:57:26.200 You've got stuff like that. But then you also have 0:57:26.440 --> 0:57:29.120 like down in Texas, there's many many different types of 0:57:29.200 --> 0:57:31.640 shirt that occur down there. So you have things like 0:57:31.800 --> 0:57:34.960 Pedernality's shirt and Georgetown and a lot of these. And 0:57:35.080 --> 0:57:37.440 this is this is a smooth rock. It's a very 0:57:39.760 --> 0:57:42.840 The key thing about it is it fractures predictably. That's 0:57:42.880 --> 0:57:45.560 what you have to have. You can't use sandstone. You know, 0:57:45.680 --> 0:57:48.160 you're not using sedimentary rocks really of any kind that 0:57:48.240 --> 0:57:52.280 I'm aware of. So they've got to be heated ahead 0:57:52.320 --> 0:57:55.200 of time because that creates this crystalline structure within the 0:57:55.320 --> 0:57:58.040 stone that is needed in order to predict how the 0:57:58.120 --> 0:58:02.120 stone is going to Like what would they so up here? 0:58:02.280 --> 0:58:06.840 Like like right in this particular area, I don't think 0:58:06.960 --> 0:58:11.000 there's yeah, so there there is some shirt around here 0:58:11.080 --> 0:58:13.320 for sure that you could yeah, that you could nap. 0:58:13.400 --> 0:58:16.560 But the thing is is really coarse grained. The courser, 0:58:16.680 --> 0:58:18.880 the grain it is, the harder the stone is to work. 0:58:19.400 --> 0:58:22.200 So north of here there are some bands of hired 0:58:22.280 --> 0:58:25.520 and within Arkansas and we have we have uh, what 0:58:25.680 --> 0:58:29.240 is it called pikin um over you have Crowley's Ridge. 0:58:29.280 --> 0:58:31.200 There's some shirt over there that's pretty good. And then 0:58:31.320 --> 0:58:33.720 end up in the Missouri there's some actually world class 0:58:34.320 --> 0:58:37.640 types of shirt up there that people really like. Um 0:58:38.080 --> 0:58:41.920 and I again another good classic example is like I 0:58:42.480 --> 0:58:45.040 that's one thing I'm very interested in is personally is 0:58:45.120 --> 0:58:48.520 learning more about our local uh types of shirt and 0:58:48.560 --> 0:58:51.040 flint that we have. But it goes back again, like 0:58:51.120 --> 0:58:52.920 I think I mentioned already, is like how do you 0:58:52.960 --> 0:58:54.400 want to spend your time. Do you want to spend 0:58:54.440 --> 0:58:55.960 your time looking for the stuff or do you want 0:58:56.000 --> 0:58:59.560 to spend your time making airheads? And for me, you know, 0:58:59.760 --> 0:59:02.760 I wish my knowledge was better in terms of what 0:59:03.120 --> 0:59:06.200 is locally available, but I'd rather just learn more about 0:59:06.240 --> 0:59:08.640 making airhoods at least at this point, you know, I'm 0:59:08.640 --> 0:59:11.760 still learning. And that's so. Um, lots of times I 0:59:11.880 --> 0:59:14.600 trade for stone or I'll even there's places online you 0:59:14.680 --> 0:59:16.240 can buy it if you want to. And I have, 0:59:16.680 --> 0:59:19.840 you know, gone around even just around here, and I've 0:59:19.880 --> 0:59:22.640 gotten into a habit. When you pick up piece of stone, 0:59:22.760 --> 0:59:25.160 you take another rock and you can strike it, and 0:59:25.400 --> 0:59:28.880 based upon how it breaks, you can determine pretty quickly 0:59:29.080 --> 0:59:31.000 if it is a good candidate to try to make 0:59:31.040 --> 0:59:33.320 a point out of um, And it just takes some 0:59:33.400 --> 0:59:37.600 time to recognize that. But from there, um, you've got 0:59:37.680 --> 0:59:40.520 to have a toolkit. Right. And so there's different types 0:59:40.640 --> 0:59:44.360 of percussion in the way that you strike the circussion 0:59:45.000 --> 0:59:48.320 that what it's called. Yeah, So there's different kinds of percussion. 0:59:48.400 --> 0:59:51.640 You have hard hammer and soft hammer percussion. So example 0:59:51.680 --> 0:59:53.440 of hard hammer would be pick up a rocket with 0:59:53.440 --> 0:59:57.040 another rock, right, So soft hammer would be using antler 0:59:57.600 --> 1:00:01.240 or corn or something like that and and uh or 1:00:01.320 --> 1:00:04.240 even would in some cases, although that's that's much less 1:00:04.280 --> 1:00:08.160 common and so um, you have direct percussion where I'm 1:00:08.200 --> 1:00:10.400 holding the stone in one hand and I strike it 1:00:10.520 --> 1:00:12.200 with an antler on the other hand. And you have 1:00:12.360 --> 1:00:16.080 indirect percussion. Um, And that's where you have like a 1:00:16.160 --> 1:00:19.600 piece of antler that you know, you're bouncing the stone 1:00:19.640 --> 1:00:22.520 on your leg, you have another piece of antler that 1:00:22.640 --> 1:00:25.360 you're holding in a particular angle, and then you strike 1:00:25.520 --> 1:00:29.880 that antler with another antler. That's indirect percussion. And you 1:00:30.240 --> 1:00:34.120 started to see kind of a resurgence, especially if you 1:00:34.280 --> 1:00:36.160 want to jump in the circles of flint napping on 1:00:36.400 --> 1:00:38.600 on Instagram and all that type of stuff. You see 1:00:38.600 --> 1:00:40.680 a lot of guys doing that stuff because on to 1:00:40.800 --> 1:00:42.880 some degree, it gives you a higher level of control 1:00:43.360 --> 1:00:45.680 in terms of direct Yeah, because of the angle that 1:00:45.760 --> 1:00:48.600 you can control a little bit better. Um, but it 1:00:48.640 --> 1:00:50.560 does require a little bit more tool. So you're you're 1:00:50.640 --> 1:00:53.919 taking ah, if you were trying to make a point 1:00:54.000 --> 1:00:57.120 the size of an era head, which most people would understand, 1:00:57.160 --> 1:01:00.400 you know, something like under two inches long, maybe maybe 1:01:00.400 --> 1:01:02.640 an inch and a half inch wide, Like how big 1:01:02.680 --> 1:01:04.000 of a rock would you have to start with, So 1:01:04.560 --> 1:01:07.480 it depends, but oftentimes what you do is you'll you'll 1:01:07.760 --> 1:01:11.120 you'll start with a large stone if if you have it, 1:01:11.240 --> 1:01:13.680 and you'll knock off what's called a spall or a 1:01:14.040 --> 1:01:16.880 or a large flake. And so at first you remove 1:01:16.920 --> 1:01:19.480 a large flake from that piece, and that large flake, 1:01:19.720 --> 1:01:22.240 you know, ideally, if you're starting out with something's maybe 1:01:22.280 --> 1:01:25.080 gonna be you know, somewhere be four to six inches 1:01:25.560 --> 1:01:28.920 uh and thin ideally, because the thinner you start with, 1:01:29.120 --> 1:01:31.880 the easier it is to get to an arrowhead um. 1:01:31.960 --> 1:01:33.919 If you start with something that with a big hump 1:01:34.000 --> 1:01:35.960 on it, that we often refer to as a turtleback, 1:01:36.360 --> 1:01:38.560 that's a problem you gotta deal with. And so you're 1:01:38.560 --> 1:01:41.720 just setting yourself up to be challenged. So a nice 1:01:41.840 --> 1:01:45.080 thin flake or a spall. Then from there you'll use 1:01:45.160 --> 1:01:48.240 one of these percussion methods to whittle that thing down 1:01:48.360 --> 1:01:51.160 to a point or to the shape of something that 1:01:51.360 --> 1:01:54.240 you feel like is close to what you're after. Then 1:01:54.400 --> 1:01:57.280 the next stage that you'll move onto is pressure flaking, 1:01:57.600 --> 1:02:01.160 and that's what many people are familiar with. Modern people 1:02:01.960 --> 1:02:05.120 are modern flint nappers tend to use copper pressure flakers. 1:02:05.320 --> 1:02:09.240 And there is definitely evidence that Native people is also 1:02:09.360 --> 1:02:12.720 actually smelted copper and used copper tips to flat points. 1:02:12.840 --> 1:02:14.919 Yeah that that you know, we don't have a whole 1:02:14.960 --> 1:02:17.280 lot of research about that, but I have read things 1:02:17.320 --> 1:02:22.200 that that proved, um that even when even when they 1:02:22.240 --> 1:02:27.080 had the abilities to create copper tools, um, their skills 1:02:27.160 --> 1:02:29.320 were so much more fined at making stone tools and 1:02:29.360 --> 1:02:32.560 it was so hard to smelt that copper that they 1:02:32.680 --> 1:02:34.400 realized that if they could just get a little bit 1:02:34.440 --> 1:02:37.160 of copper, they were way more efficient and making stone 1:02:37.200 --> 1:02:41.160 tools with it. And so um. But traditionally what people 1:02:41.240 --> 1:02:44.760 think about is uh tips of antler and that's often 1:02:44.840 --> 1:02:49.000 referred to as abbo or aboriginal napping. And so if 1:02:49.040 --> 1:02:51.280 you want to do it, you know, because and again, 1:02:51.520 --> 1:02:54.520 just like anything, you're into what was the first stage 1:02:54.560 --> 1:02:57.640 when you're just banging out the kind of general shape 1:02:57.640 --> 1:03:00.560 of that, that's percussion, and then then you move to 1:03:00.640 --> 1:03:04.960 pressure flaking. So percussion and then pressure pressure flaking is 1:03:05.000 --> 1:03:09.400 where you're putting that serrated edge on the actual stone 1:03:09.520 --> 1:03:14.919 point itself, you know, and so the stone the way 1:03:14.960 --> 1:03:19.000 the stone flakes, you can you can put pressure, put 1:03:19.040 --> 1:03:22.760 it on your leg, you can, yeah, correct, you need 1:03:22.840 --> 1:03:26.000 something to protect yourself otherwise you're driving these razor sharp 1:03:26.240 --> 1:03:28.720 micro flakes into your hand or or into your leg, 1:03:28.800 --> 1:03:31.360 and so yes, typically use a piece of leather to 1:03:31.520 --> 1:03:34.400 protect yourself. And then you either holding it in your 1:03:34.440 --> 1:03:36.960 hand or pushing it on your thigh or you above 1:03:37.000 --> 1:03:40.600 your knee on your leg, and you're applying pressure at 1:03:40.640 --> 1:03:45.480 a particular angle with the flaking tool, whether really small 1:03:46.120 --> 1:03:47.880 tip like a big copper, could be the tip of 1:03:47.920 --> 1:03:52.760 an antler exactly popping it down and ye, and in 1:03:53.160 --> 1:03:57.280 order to create a nice smooth point, you need to 1:03:57.400 --> 1:04:00.400 be able to run flakes at least halfway a cross, 1:04:00.680 --> 1:04:03.360 because if you can't get halfway a cross on eather side, 1:04:03.680 --> 1:04:05.680 So like let's say we have an arrowhead, right, So 1:04:05.840 --> 1:04:08.200 a narrowhead like this, and I'm driving fleakes on this side, 1:04:08.360 --> 1:04:10.360 and I'm driving flakes on this side. Well, if they 1:04:10.400 --> 1:04:13.240 don't overlap slightly, you're gonna end up with this middle 1:04:13.320 --> 1:04:16.840 park that doesn't get uh flaked away. And so it's 1:04:18.320 --> 1:04:21.200 there you go. The problem is, though, is that part 1:04:21.520 --> 1:04:24.840 is gonna be It's gonna be, it won't be sharp, 1:04:24.920 --> 1:04:31.080 and it's gonna there's resistance there right when it enters exactly, 1:04:31.120 --> 1:04:34.000 it's problematic. So you want to make sure that, um, 1:04:34.320 --> 1:04:36.480 those flakes are are and it's it make it's a 1:04:36.520 --> 1:04:38.400 lot easier to understand when you see it, right, they're 1:04:38.480 --> 1:04:41.680 explaining it. Um. But as you whittle these things down 1:04:41.880 --> 1:04:44.960 or chip them down, UM, you end up with something 1:04:45.240 --> 1:04:48.720 hopefully that's generally pretty symmetrical. And I mean, and they're 1:04:49.200 --> 1:04:52.880 razor sharp. I mean, there's no questions. My next question is, Okay, 1:04:53.000 --> 1:04:56.680 when I first started messing around with flint points, um, 1:04:57.160 --> 1:04:59.720 I spent a year or two hunting with them. Yeah, 1:05:00.200 --> 1:05:05.120 and um, my question, I never even shot at an 1:05:05.120 --> 1:05:08.720 animal with one, Like just I didn't commit the whole season. 1:05:08.840 --> 1:05:10.800 So it would be like I was picking and choosing 1:05:10.880 --> 1:05:14.360 when I was bringing the flint point, and it just 1:05:14.400 --> 1:05:17.000 seemed like every time I chose not to bring it, 1:05:17.120 --> 1:05:19.160 that's when I'd get a shot at. When I brought it, 1:05:19.200 --> 1:05:23.280 I wouldn't. My thing was like how effective of a 1:05:23.400 --> 1:05:27.240 killing tool is this? It's very I mean, you know, 1:05:27.920 --> 1:05:29.880 you can look at it a few different ways. One is, 1:05:30.160 --> 1:05:33.800 you know, modern and modern times anyway, we still have 1:05:33.920 --> 1:05:36.520 to look at like how ethical is it to with 1:05:36.600 --> 1:05:40.280 a tool like that? And so you know, it needs 1:05:40.360 --> 1:05:42.760 to be razor sharp, and if it's not, it's it's 1:05:42.840 --> 1:05:46.040 not appropriate. When I say razor sharp, you know it's 1:05:46.120 --> 1:05:50.160 it's contradictory in some ways because modern broadheads are not serrated, right, 1:05:50.560 --> 1:05:52.840 They're like knife blade. But I guess that's not an 1:05:52.840 --> 1:05:54.800 example because knife can be serrated. But there it's like 1:05:54.840 --> 1:05:58.680 a razor edge literally, right. And you know, I for me, 1:05:58.840 --> 1:06:00.520 if I'm hunting with a steel bad head, I need 1:06:00.560 --> 1:06:02.120 to be able to slice paper with that thing, and 1:06:02.200 --> 1:06:05.160 if I can, it's not sharp enough. Well, you can't 1:06:05.560 --> 1:06:08.919 use the same measuring stick for a stone point because 1:06:08.960 --> 1:06:12.040 it doesn't work the same way as a regular broadhead. 1:06:12.120 --> 1:06:15.880 A regular broadhead will slice through flesh very cleanly. In 1:06:16.160 --> 1:06:20.160 contrast to that, a stone point has these micro edges. 1:06:20.240 --> 1:06:22.800 They'll cut literally, it's a serration that comes to a 1:06:22.880 --> 1:06:29.360 tip exactly, and it will will it tears flesh rather 1:06:29.440 --> 1:06:31.680 than kind of cutting through it as it moves through. 1:06:32.160 --> 1:06:35.120 So the two components that a stone point needs in 1:06:35.240 --> 1:06:38.959 order to be functionally appropriate, at least in my mind, 1:06:39.440 --> 1:06:42.520 is the tip needs to be like a needle. It 1:06:42.640 --> 1:06:48.720 needs to be razor point exactly exactly. Yep. So that's 1:06:48.760 --> 1:06:51.240 the first characteristic that it's got to have. The next 1:06:51.320 --> 1:06:55.160 thing is that those serrations, the tips of those serrations. 1:06:55.480 --> 1:06:57.320 I mean, if I take one of mine and I 1:06:57.640 --> 1:07:00.400 just drag it quickly across my hand, it's gonna cut 1:07:00.440 --> 1:07:03.520 my hand open. And if you can't do that, then 1:07:03.760 --> 1:07:06.680 it's not sharp enough to hunt with. And so um, 1:07:07.320 --> 1:07:11.360 you know, it takes time definitely to get them to 1:07:11.480 --> 1:07:13.520 the point where and that doesn't I'm not saying you 1:07:13.560 --> 1:07:16.280 couldn't kill a deer with a one that wasn't that sharp, 1:07:16.720 --> 1:07:18.760 but it's just simply not going to perform as well. 1:07:18.920 --> 1:07:22.200 And I think you know, in if we're talking about 1:07:22.200 --> 1:07:26.680 a Native American thousand years ago, they I'm not here 1:07:26.720 --> 1:07:28.920 to say whether or not I know anything about what 1:07:29.000 --> 1:07:31.560 their ethics were back then, right, Their ethics were they 1:07:31.640 --> 1:07:33.760 needed to eat and they were going to do whatever 1:07:33.840 --> 1:07:37.600 they needed to do. They were motivated from a little 1:07:37.640 --> 1:07:41.360 bit different direction exactly, and they would have taken shots 1:07:41.680 --> 1:07:45.040 that we simply wouldn't take today as ethical hunters, simply 1:07:45.120 --> 1:07:50.880 because you know exactly our life depended on it every 1:07:50.960 --> 1:07:54.080 time we hunted, precisely, you know, so yeah, I'm not 1:07:54.160 --> 1:07:56.840 gonna take a gut shot on a on an animal knowingly, 1:07:57.000 --> 1:07:59.800 but I feel almost confident that they would have because 1:08:00.000 --> 1:08:02.960 they were trying to eat and they had to eat. 1:08:03.760 --> 1:08:06.240 And so but having said that, you know, if you're 1:08:06.240 --> 1:08:09.880 gonna do something like that, um, there are still considerations 1:08:10.000 --> 1:08:12.280 you know, that you have to take. But you know, 1:08:12.440 --> 1:08:14.840 properly prepared stone points, there's no doubt in my mind, 1:08:15.120 --> 1:08:18.760 you know, if it's placed. When you think about when 1:08:18.840 --> 1:08:22.880 you think about the breadth of human history, I mean, 1:08:24.200 --> 1:08:29.040 humans have been surviving a shorter amount of time using 1:08:29.560 --> 1:08:34.400 modern technologies for dispatching animals than they had using stone points. 1:08:34.520 --> 1:08:36.920 I mean humanity was built on the back of a 1:08:37.000 --> 1:08:39.839 stone point. And so that's why that's why it's bizarre. 1:08:40.040 --> 1:08:44.080 That's why it's ironic that like we would even be 1:08:44.160 --> 1:08:46.599 having a discussion about whether this is ethical, I mean 1:08:48.000 --> 1:08:53.599 for the conversation, but like the people that would say 1:08:53.640 --> 1:08:56.519 it's unethical, I would just say, man, why don't you 1:08:57.720 --> 1:09:00.160 go back and study a little bit of human history? Well, 1:09:00.160 --> 1:09:02.040 And the other thing that to me to sort of 1:09:02.080 --> 1:09:03.640 flip that on its head in a way that's so 1:09:03.840 --> 1:09:08.439 interesting is there are more people flint napping right now 1:09:09.120 --> 1:09:12.560 than there have been in probably a thousand years. And 1:09:12.760 --> 1:09:15.960 it's crazy as it is. It's because of Instagram, it's 1:09:16.000 --> 1:09:18.679 because of all of YouTube, it's because of all these 1:09:19.120 --> 1:09:22.439 you know resources. So you know, I'm definitely one of 1:09:22.479 --> 1:09:25.080 these guys that just some degree that falls in the 1:09:25.439 --> 1:09:29.519 camp of like you know, our internets, this double edged sword, right, Like, 1:09:29.640 --> 1:09:32.080 there's so much junk out there, and there's there's a 1:09:32.120 --> 1:09:35.320 lot of negative that comes whether or not it's it's 1:09:35.360 --> 1:09:37.360 something as simple of staring into a screen all day 1:09:38.120 --> 1:09:41.840 for kid or just all this negative is um right, 1:09:41.960 --> 1:09:45.880 that comes from whether in whatever form that takes. But 1:09:46.200 --> 1:09:50.200 there's this other side where you know, you have this 1:09:50.920 --> 1:09:53.800 community that is in and I don't care what your 1:09:53.880 --> 1:09:56.280 thing is, there's a community out there for it, you 1:09:56.360 --> 1:10:00.240 know online that are sharing skills and do doing that 1:10:00.400 --> 1:10:03.800 and that's the cool part. And because of that, you know, 1:10:04.200 --> 1:10:07.280 there are a lot of resources that up until very recently, 1:10:07.320 --> 1:10:09.920 the last few years, you know, wouldn't not have been 1:10:09.920 --> 1:10:12.840 available to people. And so you know, when you think 1:10:12.840 --> 1:10:16.519 about the communication. We we bought this book the other day, uh, 1:10:16.760 --> 1:10:23.960 this fox firebook. This would have been the way to 1:10:24.200 --> 1:10:31.360 preserve these like ancient technologies man communication, modern video like 1:10:31.600 --> 1:10:37.760 all this stuff is revolutionized the human experience to something 1:10:37.840 --> 1:10:40.240 that we don't even know what direction it's going. I mean, 1:10:40.320 --> 1:10:43.400 it's bizarre because like, yeah, you can. You didn't have 1:10:43.560 --> 1:10:47.080 to know a Native American. You didn't have to know 1:10:47.280 --> 1:10:50.920 somebody that. I mean, you went on the internet and 1:10:51.040 --> 1:10:53.400 learned how that Yeah, exactly, you know, And of course 1:10:53.479 --> 1:10:56.400 they're that still doesn't take the place of having a 1:10:56.560 --> 1:10:59.680 very experienced person show you. And I don't want to 1:11:00.040 --> 1:11:04.760 know create that UM or have that misconception there because 1:11:04.800 --> 1:11:07.720 there's no exception for a good teacher or someone that 1:11:07.800 --> 1:11:10.519 has hands on stale and and I think that's across 1:11:10.560 --> 1:11:13.680 the board whatever you're into. UM. But unfortunately for me, 1:11:13.840 --> 1:11:15.760 you know, they're kind of wouldn't anybody around me they 1:11:15.800 --> 1:11:17.439 could show me, So I just kind of had to 1:11:17.479 --> 1:11:19.040 figure it out. And of course a lot of it's 1:11:19.080 --> 1:11:22.120 just trial and error. I mean, anyone that wants to 1:11:22.120 --> 1:11:24.479 get into flipping up and I'm like, okay, well, uh, 1:11:24.720 --> 1:11:28.280 you're gonna basically pulverize a couple hundred pounds of rocks 1:11:28.840 --> 1:11:31.440 and turn them into dust, and you're gonna get real frustrated, 1:11:31.720 --> 1:11:33.240 and then at some point you're gonna end up with 1:11:33.320 --> 1:11:35.800 something that's starting to look like an arrowhead and then 1:11:36.000 --> 1:11:38.719 from there, you know, you're it's just gonna be slowly, 1:11:38.800 --> 1:11:41.280 but surely you'll keep on refinding it. Man, right here, 1:11:41.360 --> 1:11:43.639 I'll show you when we're done. I've got a collection 1:11:43.720 --> 1:11:47.479 of stone points, many of which I've found on this property, 1:11:47.640 --> 1:11:51.160 on your proper and you can see the difference and 1:11:51.360 --> 1:11:55.080 skill level. Yeah, and that's so fascinating to pick up 1:11:55.120 --> 1:11:56.960 a stone point, like there's there's one up here that 1:11:56.960 --> 1:11:59.880 I can show you that, like you just wonder, you're like, man, 1:12:00.160 --> 1:12:03.960 I bet a fourteen year old boy. I've had really yeah, 1:12:04.080 --> 1:12:06.720 interesting discussions with people about like, you know, was this 1:12:06.840 --> 1:12:10.040 a beginner or was it a kid? You know? And 1:12:10.160 --> 1:12:12.879 then the other thing is is like I've I've definitely 1:12:13.200 --> 1:12:16.040 um talked with people that are are of the oppression 1:12:16.160 --> 1:12:19.560 that like, Okay, if there's a tribe or a community 1:12:19.680 --> 1:12:23.320 of of early people, you know, I feel like maybe 1:12:23.360 --> 1:12:26.240 there was one guy and he was the napper and 1:12:26.360 --> 1:12:29.120 he's building points and tools for everybody, and all the 1:12:29.160 --> 1:12:31.160 other guys are the hunters, you know what I mean. 1:12:31.240 --> 1:12:33.720 So it's kind of fun to think about how the 1:12:34.160 --> 1:12:37.519 four verses like was each hunter did he have his 1:12:37.600 --> 1:12:40.000 own style on his own I think it's there's a 1:12:40.040 --> 1:12:42.080 lot of argument to say that's probably less likely because 1:12:42.080 --> 1:12:45.040 flint napping is very time consuming. So to think that 1:12:45.400 --> 1:12:47.320 you know, you're gonna make all your own tools and 1:12:47.400 --> 1:12:49.520 all this stuff and then go hunting, Sure, it's possible, 1:12:49.680 --> 1:12:51.800 no doubt about it. But I think there's a case 1:12:51.840 --> 1:12:54.640 to be made because there's no doubt that like some 1:12:54.800 --> 1:12:58.000 people just kind of get it, they just gravitate towards it, 1:12:58.160 --> 1:13:01.120 right and there, um, there's um, you know, locally, we 1:13:01.240 --> 1:13:03.920 have that up in Pentonville. We've got that Native American Museum. 1:13:03.960 --> 1:13:07.400 If you haven't met up there in that place is incredible. 1:13:08.080 --> 1:13:09.920 One of the and I don't know if it's still 1:13:10.000 --> 1:13:11.439 up there because I think it was on loan, But 1:13:11.520 --> 1:13:14.040 there's a tool up there that called the sweetwater by 1:13:14.120 --> 1:13:18.280 Face and it was found in Texas, and to my knowledge, 1:13:18.439 --> 1:13:22.040 no modern napper has been able to replicate this tool. 1:13:22.720 --> 1:13:25.880 What's it called. It's called the sweetwater Byface. And there's 1:13:25.920 --> 1:13:33.120 a there's a ratio of width to thickness that very 1:13:33.200 --> 1:13:37.519 skilled nappers will try to emulate. And once you get 1:13:37.640 --> 1:13:41.080 so wide, you can only get so thin right before 1:13:41.160 --> 1:13:44.439 it gets very difficult to do. And that particular phase 1:13:45.479 --> 1:13:48.479 among artifacts is world class. I mean, it's as good 1:13:48.520 --> 1:13:52.160 as almost anything, because though it's crazy why I want 1:13:52.200 --> 1:13:55.080 to say, it's like nineteen or or so millimeters wide 1:13:56.000 --> 1:13:59.479 and it's like crazy thin, and it's just unbelievable that 1:14:00.280 --> 1:14:03.840 you know, whoever made it was said, did you mean centimeters? 1:14:03.960 --> 1:14:07.240 Nineteen cinemas He has his fingers. I understood what you're saying, 1:14:07.560 --> 1:14:11.320 you know, like three inches or something exactly, like but 1:14:11.479 --> 1:14:14.479 like paper thing exactly. Yeah, it's unbelievable when you look 1:14:14.520 --> 1:14:17.439 at it in profile. I mean, if you dropped it 1:14:17.479 --> 1:14:21.680 on this concrete floor with shatter into you know. Um, 1:14:21.960 --> 1:14:26.559 and it's a remarkable artifact. Fascinating stuff, fascinating stuff. Um. 1:14:27.760 --> 1:14:31.280 You know. I I've got to say this just because 1:14:31.520 --> 1:14:34.120 it's on my mind, all these points found in my 1:14:34.200 --> 1:14:38.200 front yard. You know. I was pretty heavily ridiculed, uh 1:14:38.360 --> 1:14:41.840 the other day online for did you see any of that? 1:14:42.120 --> 1:14:44.960 A little bit? Okay, there's no shortage of opinions out there. 1:14:45.880 --> 1:14:49.320 So I wrote an article for meat Eater that was 1:14:49.479 --> 1:14:53.840 on that was called six tips for finding stone point 1:14:55.000 --> 1:14:59.920 and uh man, I so I just wrote these sick 1:15:00.040 --> 1:15:02.200 tips for fighting stone points. You know, I mean just 1:15:02.280 --> 1:15:05.240 kind of like practical places to look. And we made 1:15:05.400 --> 1:15:07.960 mention early in the article about how you know you 1:15:08.000 --> 1:15:10.880 need to check your regulations because it technically it's illegal 1:15:10.960 --> 1:15:16.639 to take it basically anything off of public. And man, 1:15:17.240 --> 1:15:23.479 I was skewered with with I had people like private 1:15:23.680 --> 1:15:27.360 messaging me like, just people take this stuff very serious. 1:15:27.520 --> 1:15:30.640 And you know, what I was trying to say was, 1:15:31.920 --> 1:15:34.800 you know, on private land where you have permission to 1:15:35.080 --> 1:15:38.080 gather stone points, like, there were people like trying to 1:15:38.120 --> 1:15:40.040 say that it would be have better for me to 1:15:40.160 --> 1:15:42.439 have left all these stone points in my front yard. 1:15:42.840 --> 1:15:45.120 I mean, essentially that's what they were saying. But but 1:15:45.640 --> 1:15:48.560 and I realized it's one of these like mass communication 1:15:49.240 --> 1:15:52.280 kind of misses because what they were what they were 1:15:52.320 --> 1:15:56.680 saying was that I was encouraging people to loot archaeological 1:15:56.840 --> 1:16:00.799 sites like, which was not at all your point zero 1:16:01.040 --> 1:16:04.519 run point. Even one person who I engaged with a 1:16:04.560 --> 1:16:07.160 little bit, he seemed like a normal guy. I was like, 1:16:07.600 --> 1:16:11.080 so you're telling me that you want me to call 1:16:11.520 --> 1:16:14.400 maybe the University of Arkansas to come out to my 1:16:14.560 --> 1:16:19.040 front yard and set up an archaeological dig and uh. 1:16:19.080 --> 1:16:21.600 And I was like, man, there's not enough time, not 1:16:21.840 --> 1:16:24.600 enough money, there's more places that are better, so you 1:16:24.760 --> 1:16:26.559 may just leave my stone points in the front yard. 1:16:27.120 --> 1:16:30.200 And he was kind of like, you know, he was 1:16:30.280 --> 1:16:33.760 kind of like, well no, but and I was like, okay, 1:16:33.800 --> 1:16:35.479 well then that's what I'm talking about. What I'm talking 1:16:35.479 --> 1:16:40.280 about legal, I'm not even necessarily talking about anyway. That's 1:16:40.280 --> 1:16:44.519 a whole different story about And you know, you have 1:16:44.640 --> 1:16:47.519 to have to recognize that there's a lot of ways 1:16:47.560 --> 1:16:50.240 to look at that. And you know, I think you 1:16:50.800 --> 1:16:53.920 tried to do your due diligence about you know, doing 1:16:54.000 --> 1:16:56.559 things ethically and being responsible and that sort of thing. 1:16:56.680 --> 1:17:00.439 But everyone, you know, you asked him people, you get 1:17:00.479 --> 1:17:04.439 ten different opinions, right, And um, I certainly am a 1:17:04.560 --> 1:17:07.800 proponent a of of not doing anything illegal in terms 1:17:07.840 --> 1:17:10.760 of removing points from public land. And the other thing, 1:17:11.479 --> 1:17:15.960 um is being respectful to uh first people's in terms 1:17:16.120 --> 1:17:18.920 of you know, but the fact of the matter is, 1:17:19.280 --> 1:17:22.479 unless you're an archaeologist and you come in, you know, 1:17:22.800 --> 1:17:26.880 knowing at what point said stone point was made. Are 1:17:26.920 --> 1:17:30.640 we talking about a you know, a o sage, you know, 1:17:30.880 --> 1:17:34.160 native American that lived in the Ozarks several hundred years ago. 1:17:34.520 --> 1:17:36.920 Are we talking about an at Lattle point that was 1:17:37.000 --> 1:17:42.439 from an early archaic period that no one knows, you know, 1:17:43.000 --> 1:17:46.760 even what current Native Americans might may or may not 1:17:46.920 --> 1:17:49.920 have been related to that individual, Right, And so you 1:17:50.080 --> 1:17:52.240 just open up this can of worms that there's kind 1:17:52.280 --> 1:17:54.760 of no answer to that. That doesn't mean that we 1:17:54.800 --> 1:17:58.240 shouldn't be, you know, respectful to those first people's you 1:17:58.280 --> 1:18:01.360 know that came and and traveled through this country. Um, 1:18:01.760 --> 1:18:04.880 but at the same time, it's a tricky subject. Well, 1:18:05.000 --> 1:18:07.679 and I and I and I didn't want to open 1:18:07.760 --> 1:18:10.760 up a cannon or because I'm all for preservation of 1:18:11.400 --> 1:18:15.559 archaeological sites and respect. I mean, to me, those stone 1:18:15.600 --> 1:18:19.040 points setting right there and me showing every person that 1:18:19.160 --> 1:18:22.760 comes in this office, that is like a massive Yeah, 1:18:22.800 --> 1:18:26.320 you're paying to those people who were here. I mean, 1:18:26.400 --> 1:18:28.880 you're showing those to your kids, You're you're showing them 1:18:28.880 --> 1:18:31.000 to people, your guests, you know that come in here, 1:18:31.040 --> 1:18:34.160 and you're like, look at this amazing thing that these 1:18:34.360 --> 1:18:36.800 people and always bring it back to the people like 1:18:36.920 --> 1:18:39.400 I think about I think about the human you know 1:18:39.520 --> 1:18:41.679 that touch this, you know, that's what everybody does. Something 1:18:41.800 --> 1:18:43.800 anyway that's totally off topic. But I had to bring 1:18:43.920 --> 1:18:48.240 that up because I haven't Uh. I haven't publicly addressed that, 1:18:48.400 --> 1:18:51.960 but it's like, yeah, I'm not for looting archaeological sites 1:18:52.080 --> 1:18:54.719 or doing anything illegal, but if I see a stone 1:18:54.720 --> 1:18:57.080 point in my front yard, I'm going to pick it up. Yeah, 1:18:57.400 --> 1:19:00.280 and I think and I'm gonna shown to I think 1:19:00.360 --> 1:19:03.120 most people would. I mean again, you know, not to 1:19:03.160 --> 1:19:06.040 sit here and talk about what's right or wrong. But um, 1:19:07.080 --> 1:19:09.160 I mean otherwise, how does anyone ever know about it? 1:19:09.760 --> 1:19:11.000 You know what I mean? I mean, I guess if 1:19:11.160 --> 1:19:13.640 you couldn't go look at a museum. But yeah, I 1:19:13.720 --> 1:19:15.920 don't know. There's Well what's wild to me is the 1:19:16.640 --> 1:19:19.280 I wouldn't have known this till I started paying attention 1:19:20.000 --> 1:19:24.639 then looking on the ground. Is that, man, the Native 1:19:24.680 --> 1:19:30.400 American occupation was widespread across this continent. They were everywhere, 1:19:31.120 --> 1:19:34.280 and they were here for so long. I mean, there's 1:19:34.400 --> 1:19:38.160 probably a stone point under the foundation of this building 1:19:38.240 --> 1:19:40.680 where in right now that no one I mean, just 1:19:40.960 --> 1:19:43.840 like something happened here, There was a human interaction here 1:19:44.520 --> 1:19:46.920 that left evidence of the stuff. Mean, it was just 1:19:47.160 --> 1:19:48.760 it was the way that they lived in this room, 1:19:48.920 --> 1:19:53.759 you know. But now E one last question on the napping. 1:19:54.200 --> 1:19:59.040 Have you have you taken an animal and part of 1:19:59.120 --> 1:20:02.600 the reason that I haven't is because I was not 1:20:02.800 --> 1:20:06.120 confident that my points were ready and it and for me, 1:20:06.240 --> 1:20:09.360 it very was very much an ethical uh stone point. 1:20:09.400 --> 1:20:13.240 Now I have carried them with me, um, you know, 1:20:13.479 --> 1:20:16.200 just to sort of start getting the field for it 1:20:16.280 --> 1:20:21.120 and everything. But um, but you better believe this ball. Okay, 1:20:21.240 --> 1:20:25.680 I'm gonna be carrying stone points. Yeah. Well, man, that's 1:20:25.720 --> 1:20:29.160 a great place to talk about. Like, so now we 1:20:29.280 --> 1:20:31.479 have this pretty good picture of of who you are, 1:20:32.080 --> 1:20:36.640 like a mountaineer, well traveled inside of that world, and 1:20:36.760 --> 1:20:44.680 then also a hunter. Um what is the like man, Like, 1:20:45.479 --> 1:20:50.360 we live in a area that's uh for Arkansas is 1:20:50.400 --> 1:20:54.599 a pretty uh pretty wealthy area for Arkansas. I mean 1:20:54.760 --> 1:21:00.320 like uh like, uh what am I trying to get at? Uh? What? What? 1:21:00.600 --> 1:21:04.280 What are the cultural divides between hunters and your and 1:21:04.400 --> 1:21:08.000 your outdoorsman that's a non hunter. I think a lot 1:21:08.080 --> 1:21:11.920 of it, you know, quite honestly comes down to a 1:21:12.360 --> 1:21:14.920 lack of knowledge or a miscommunication a lot of times, 1:21:15.000 --> 1:21:19.040 you know, because there's sometimes an assumption like again, like 1:21:19.360 --> 1:21:21.840 you know the shop that I work at, you know, 1:21:21.960 --> 1:21:26.680 pack Rat in Fayetteville. Um, we self technical equipment for 1:21:27.320 --> 1:21:32.240 hikers climbers, canoeists, those types of things. Um, we do 1:21:32.400 --> 1:21:36.799 now carry longbows, and but it's for purposes recreational archery 1:21:36.960 --> 1:21:39.040 at this time. We're not necessary for money hunting. But 1:21:39.479 --> 1:21:41.439 I guess my point is is that those are the 1:21:41.479 --> 1:21:44.000 types of folks, you know, traditionally they're coming in, you know, 1:21:44.080 --> 1:21:47.439 to the shop. Now if a guy who normally doesn't 1:21:47.479 --> 1:21:49.479 do those things and he's a hunter, but he's getting 1:21:49.479 --> 1:21:51.479 ready to go on a trip and he needs a 1:21:51.600 --> 1:21:54.680 camping stove, and he's like, oh, well, I can't get 1:21:54.720 --> 1:21:57.519 it at x ra Y hunting shop where I got 1:21:57.600 --> 1:21:59.960 my bow or where I bought my camo. But I'm 1:22:00.000 --> 1:22:01.559 want to go down there to that shop because they 1:22:01.560 --> 1:22:04.640 sell that kind of stuff. I've seen it there a 1:22:04.760 --> 1:22:10.240 lot of times. Is automatically like a they expect sometimes 1:22:10.320 --> 1:22:14.519 to be uh, look down upon a little bit or 1:22:14.640 --> 1:22:20.920 just like not understood, and um, you know, certainly sometimes 1:22:21.160 --> 1:22:24.360 there is a lack of information right in terms of 1:22:24.479 --> 1:22:26.400 like what it is that you're actually doing when you're 1:22:26.439 --> 1:22:30.240 out there. Because people that don't have a hunting background, um, 1:22:30.880 --> 1:22:33.320 they're just not educated in it. And sometimes you know, 1:22:33.760 --> 1:22:37.280 they don't realize that some of the very best allies 1:22:37.360 --> 1:22:40.240 for conservations are hunter, right. I mean, we all know that, 1:22:40.920 --> 1:22:44.200 but from all they see is the killing, you know, 1:22:44.920 --> 1:22:48.040 And and I'm sure you guys would probably also agree 1:22:49.120 --> 1:22:51.760 that there are plenty of hunters out there that go 1:22:52.479 --> 1:22:55.000 do things that are not ethical, that they act and 1:22:55.080 --> 1:22:59.559 they do the rest of stereotype. I mean, I've seen 1:22:59.640 --> 1:23:02.200 it time and time again, unfortunately, and ghost in Arkansas 1:23:02.320 --> 1:23:04.599 where I do a lot of my deer hunting, guys 1:23:04.760 --> 1:23:06.680 will road hunt and they shoot a deer and they 1:23:06.760 --> 1:23:08.760 leave it laying there, and they don't even bother to 1:23:08.800 --> 1:23:10.960 get the meat, and they probably didn't have a hunting license. 1:23:11.560 --> 1:23:15.000 And there's nothing for me worse than you know, seeing 1:23:15.120 --> 1:23:18.519 something like that. That's a poacher, that's not a hunter, 1:23:18.640 --> 1:23:20.720 that's right. I mean, they hunted, but they're you know, 1:23:20.840 --> 1:23:25.920 they're not as far as but the average person that 1:23:26.160 --> 1:23:28.720 is not a hunter doesn't. They don't know the difference, right, 1:23:29.200 --> 1:23:32.240 or they haven't been educated, or maybe some people do, right, 1:23:32.439 --> 1:23:34.240 But but a lot of people they just see that 1:23:34.400 --> 1:23:37.000 and they're disgusted by it, and there's a misconception there. 1:23:37.080 --> 1:23:40.920 So I think that I guess in the end um 1:23:41.720 --> 1:23:45.080 I would say, don't jump to conclusions or whatever you 1:23:45.120 --> 1:23:47.680 wanna call it in terms of like what other other 1:23:47.880 --> 1:23:50.800 people perception is of you and what you're doing, because 1:23:50.880 --> 1:23:54.040 what I have seen, I've got rock climber buddies that 1:23:54.120 --> 1:23:58.920 are crazy passionate turkey hunters. I've got UH people I 1:23:59.040 --> 1:24:02.679 know that UH loved hike, but they're also deer owners. 1:24:03.240 --> 1:24:06.839 And more often than not, especially in someplace like Arkansas, 1:24:08.040 --> 1:24:11.080 you know, there's there's a heritage here and and and 1:24:11.400 --> 1:24:14.040 and I think that there's a lot of other towns 1:24:14.120 --> 1:24:17.800 and small towns around the country where there's a heritage here. Now, 1:24:18.280 --> 1:24:21.400 obviously you get into more metropolitan areas that starts to 1:24:21.439 --> 1:24:24.280 fade away. At least that's been by experience, right. You know, 1:24:24.479 --> 1:24:27.880 you maybe you didn't have that uncle or that your 1:24:27.920 --> 1:24:31.040 grandpa or your brother whoever that sort of was doing 1:24:31.120 --> 1:24:33.080 that when you were growing up, and so you don't 1:24:33.120 --> 1:24:36.599 have any sense of their ethics and um, what their 1:24:36.760 --> 1:24:40.320 life experiences were and how they handled themselves when it 1:24:40.400 --> 1:24:44.120 comes to you know, harvesting and game animals. Um. But 1:24:45.040 --> 1:24:47.920 you know, there's a whole lot more that connects us 1:24:48.000 --> 1:24:51.360 than separates us. And uh, you know, I guess one 1:24:51.439 --> 1:24:54.640 thing I'd make kind of a shameless plug for is 1:24:54.680 --> 1:24:59.120 the b h A, which I'm involved country Owners and Anglers, 1:24:59.520 --> 1:25:01.880 And that's one of the reasons that I've gravitated to 1:25:02.040 --> 1:25:04.000 that group is I feel like they're a group that 1:25:04.120 --> 1:25:08.960 recognizes that, and they recognize that, you know, everybody has 1:25:09.000 --> 1:25:12.080 a right to kind of recreate, at least within the 1:25:12.160 --> 1:25:16.200 spectrum of doing it responsibly. Um and as long as 1:25:16.240 --> 1:25:20.800 you're not damaging the environment or you know, harvesting game 1:25:20.840 --> 1:25:26.240 animals either believes exactly whatever that looks like. Um, you know, 1:25:26.479 --> 1:25:28.120 we all kind of have a right to be there. 1:25:28.200 --> 1:25:31.240 And I'm often surprised. I mean, sure, you got your 1:25:31.280 --> 1:25:33.559 die hard hunter guys, and all they do is hunting. 1:25:33.600 --> 1:25:36.120 They don't do anything else. Um, And you have your 1:25:36.200 --> 1:25:39.879 die hard but whether it's road bikers or rock climbers 1:25:39.960 --> 1:25:43.439 or whatever, but most of us like to do multiple things. 1:25:44.000 --> 1:25:46.920 And you don't have to get very far into a 1:25:47.000 --> 1:25:50.000 conversation to realize that we all just want to be 1:25:50.040 --> 1:25:52.200 outside doing things we love, you know what I mean? 1:25:52.800 --> 1:25:56.800 And so um, you know, I think a lot of 1:25:56.880 --> 1:26:01.400 it boils down to perceived identity, like what I see inside, 1:26:01.479 --> 1:26:04.400 like the hiking, mountaineering, rock climbing world, like what you 1:26:04.600 --> 1:26:06.960 feel when you go into like a high end outdoor 1:26:07.000 --> 1:26:10.280 store like Packer is, you feel the sense of like 1:26:10.520 --> 1:26:15.960 a strong identity inside of this thing. Okay, when you 1:26:16.080 --> 1:26:19.360 go into a hunting store or when you go into 1:26:19.600 --> 1:26:24.840 you know, you feel this identity. And and that's where 1:26:25.560 --> 1:26:28.799 I think there's a bridge that can be built inside 1:26:28.880 --> 1:26:33.040 the extremes of both of those could be at odds 1:26:33.120 --> 1:26:35.880 with each other and the struggle of identity because like 1:26:35.960 --> 1:26:40.479 a like a like a mountaineer typically would be somebody 1:26:40.560 --> 1:26:44.120 that would be like aware of the environment and wanting 1:26:44.320 --> 1:26:46.599 like no trace left behind, like a bunch of these 1:26:46.720 --> 1:26:51.280 like great things, and he might perceive his worldview of 1:26:51.360 --> 1:26:54.080 a hunter might be that that's not what that hunter is. 1:26:54.320 --> 1:26:58.120 That hunter is taking from this. Well, you know, when 1:26:58.200 --> 1:27:01.160 you when you really get down to the brass tacks 1:27:01.400 --> 1:27:05.040 and you don't view the extremes of the negative side 1:27:05.080 --> 1:27:07.160 of hunting, you realize that, hey, wait a minute, there's 1:27:07.200 --> 1:27:11.520 a a whole bunch of guys that are very conscientious, 1:27:11.840 --> 1:27:16.000 very conscientious about the environment. And and and then when 1:27:16.040 --> 1:27:18.640 you understand the North American Mile and Wildlife Conservation and 1:27:18.720 --> 1:27:21.560 the funding of the Pittman Robertson Act, and how that 1:27:22.240 --> 1:27:25.479 wild places and all this and and wildlife conservation is 1:27:25.520 --> 1:27:29.200 funded by the dollars of hunting. Then then there is 1:27:29.320 --> 1:27:33.160 this like super overlap of people that enjoy wild places. 1:27:33.640 --> 1:27:37.160 And I think that it's, uh, there's probably a lot 1:27:37.280 --> 1:27:41.080 more room for the mountaineer, hunter, hiker, canoe or just 1:27:41.320 --> 1:27:45.640 general outdoor person to step into hunting. I mean, like 1:27:46.000 --> 1:27:49.400 because because and I guess what I want to do 1:27:49.680 --> 1:27:52.320 and what I see you doing is that. And what 1:27:52.439 --> 1:27:55.000 I see b h A doing better than anybody. Say 1:27:55.080 --> 1:27:58.040 what you want about b h A, say that they're 1:27:58.040 --> 1:28:04.599 a liberal, left wing whatever. Man, those guys are bringing 1:28:04.680 --> 1:28:08.240 in new hunters into our space and that is what 1:28:08.439 --> 1:28:10.880 we need. And I just opened up a count warrns 1:28:10.960 --> 1:28:13.599 by saying that maybe we'll directly address that at some point. 1:28:13.960 --> 1:28:15.880 But man, the guys that I know that are in 1:28:15.960 --> 1:28:20.160 b h A are hardcore hunters. They're good hunters, they're 1:28:20.640 --> 1:28:25.320 they're they're the real deal. There me share you there, Colby. 1:28:25.760 --> 1:28:28.240 That's been my experience. And again it's not I'm not 1:28:28.280 --> 1:28:30.000 gonna sit here and not you know, I know a 1:28:30.080 --> 1:28:33.000 tiny percentage of them, but you know, I can only 1:28:33.040 --> 1:28:35.679 speak from what you know what I'd like to see 1:28:35.760 --> 1:28:39.200 moving forward in terms of like for the health of hunting. Uh. 1:28:39.400 --> 1:28:42.479 And you know, I guess another component that I've noticed 1:28:43.439 --> 1:28:46.120 is more and more young people are starting to be 1:28:46.240 --> 1:28:50.320 aware of where their food comes from, what that looks like. 1:28:50.840 --> 1:28:54.559 And I know a lot of people that a hunter 1:28:54.720 --> 1:28:57.240 would very easily call a tree hugger or like a 1:28:57.320 --> 1:29:00.240 granola kind of person, right, And that's kind to that 1:29:00.400 --> 1:29:04.200 social odds yea. And but that person, you know that 1:29:04.439 --> 1:29:06.760 I can think of a handful of acquaintances that I 1:29:06.880 --> 1:29:09.000 have right now that person. They don't hunt, they don't 1:29:09.040 --> 1:29:12.479 want to hunt, but they would rather see a person 1:29:13.040 --> 1:29:16.600 go and ethically harvest a deer or an antelope or 1:29:16.640 --> 1:29:19.160 whatever it may be and feed their family that way, 1:29:19.560 --> 1:29:23.280 then go to you know, X or Y big supermarket 1:29:23.640 --> 1:29:26.200 and buy a piece of beef that was came from 1:29:26.240 --> 1:29:29.720 a stockyard that was pumped full of hormones and all 1:29:29.800 --> 1:29:33.320 this other stuff. Because they understand that in the big picture, 1:29:33.720 --> 1:29:36.320 it's better for all of us, it's better for the planet, 1:29:36.920 --> 1:29:39.000 you know. When it when things happen that way, and 1:29:39.080 --> 1:29:41.800 it's it's I mean, you can't really argue that that's 1:29:41.840 --> 1:29:44.559 not a more natural course of action, you know, right, 1:29:45.280 --> 1:29:47.680 And um, you know, this is one thing like when 1:29:47.760 --> 1:29:49.960 we dear me to my house, I talked to my 1:29:50.120 --> 1:29:54.120 kids about where this meat came from. And you know why, 1:29:54.560 --> 1:29:56.519 you know, we're choosing to eat it. And yes, an 1:29:56.520 --> 1:29:59.840 animal had to die, but because that animal died, it 1:30:00.120 --> 1:30:02.960 feeding us and it it's just a big circle, right, 1:30:03.120 --> 1:30:07.360 it comes back around into itself again, and so um uh, 1:30:07.640 --> 1:30:10.519 you know, I can only have just so far off 1:30:10.520 --> 1:30:13.800 a reach, and for me, my kids is kind of 1:30:13.840 --> 1:30:16.800 where I start that at. But you know, but even 1:30:16.880 --> 1:30:20.360 with friends and other folks, you know, I've been really 1:30:20.439 --> 1:30:24.160 pleased to see a number of people that have I've 1:30:24.240 --> 1:30:26.880 reached through the archery side of things that have been like, 1:30:27.439 --> 1:30:29.240 you know what, I'm not sure if I want to 1:30:29.320 --> 1:30:31.600 hump at the shooting. The boat looks pretty cool, but 1:30:31.760 --> 1:30:34.920 it's not very far in to shoot that. It's like, well, 1:30:35.120 --> 1:30:37.240 so tell me about this deer hunting, you know what 1:30:37.320 --> 1:30:39.160 I mean. That's that's what we've got to do. We've 1:30:39.200 --> 1:30:42.000 got to find a way to build cultural bridges. And 1:30:42.080 --> 1:30:45.360 it's it's it's human to human interaction. It's it's finding 1:30:45.400 --> 1:30:49.120 a way to be who we are but not be 1:30:50.560 --> 1:30:54.080 stiff arm and some group that ought to be on 1:30:54.200 --> 1:30:58.320 our side, and I think we can do that through um. 1:31:00.040 --> 1:31:02.360 I mean, I don't know, we We've just we've we've 1:31:02.439 --> 1:31:05.000 got to be we've got to be better at at 1:31:05.040 --> 1:31:09.040 our narrative. It's crazy, and I I feel like I 1:31:09.160 --> 1:31:11.280 say this a lot for two people that are close 1:31:11.360 --> 1:31:14.320 to me, and it sounds oversimplified, but I don't know 1:31:14.479 --> 1:31:17.800 how else to say it. And literally, it just comes 1:31:17.880 --> 1:31:22.040 down to like a simple definition of respect, and respect 1:31:22.120 --> 1:31:25.639 just means like being aware and and to some degree 1:31:25.720 --> 1:31:29.240 kind of honoring someone else's traditions and you know what 1:31:29.439 --> 1:31:33.920 their life is about and simply not immediately assuming that 1:31:34.000 --> 1:31:36.080 you're not going to agree with that person because they 1:31:36.120 --> 1:31:40.520 don't do the things that you do right, And so oftentimes, 1:31:40.640 --> 1:31:43.799 I mean, it's time consuming to have a conversation, especially 1:31:43.880 --> 1:31:47.200 if you do it on uh, you know, with an individual. 1:31:48.320 --> 1:31:51.400 But that's the negative side to all of this social 1:31:51.520 --> 1:31:54.679 media and internet stuff that we've got, because it's created 1:31:54.760 --> 1:31:57.920 the keyboard warrior, right, it's real easy to take cheap 1:31:58.000 --> 1:32:00.120 shots at people when you're sitting in your of in 1:32:00.120 --> 1:32:03.960 the room behind your computer screen. And it drives me crazy, 1:32:04.520 --> 1:32:06.400 you know what I mean, Because and there's plenty of 1:32:06.479 --> 1:32:09.080 folks out there that could probably care less about what 1:32:09.200 --> 1:32:11.639 you're actually talking about, but they just jump in there 1:32:11.640 --> 1:32:14.120 and make a negative comments, stir the pot up, and 1:32:14.160 --> 1:32:16.960 then they get out right and then it starts to 1:32:17.080 --> 1:32:22.439 erode from there. Um, So it's not convenient and it 1:32:22.600 --> 1:32:27.960 isn't easy, but I guess, you know, to the limit 1:32:28.040 --> 1:32:32.519 of my influence as an individual, I would just tell people, like, 1:32:32.720 --> 1:32:36.360 before you make your initial assessment on a person for 1:32:36.479 --> 1:32:39.000 something they said or something they did, or they don't 1:32:39.040 --> 1:32:42.080 look like you or whatever, just like maybe take a 1:32:42.200 --> 1:32:45.600 second to consider, you know, what their angle was and 1:32:46.439 --> 1:32:48.800 and that sort of thing. And you know, again, I 1:32:48.920 --> 1:32:51.479 really do think that when people like actually Stole, who 1:32:51.520 --> 1:32:53.880 were all just humans. We all need things stuff, you know, 1:32:54.000 --> 1:32:55.920 and your of course you're always gonna have French people 1:32:55.960 --> 1:32:58.760 that are morons. You know, we all know that you're 1:32:58.760 --> 1:33:01.200 always gonna have there. The world is going to calculate 1:33:01.240 --> 1:33:03.320 for the more you. I mean, they're those people are 1:33:03.360 --> 1:33:05.519 out there, and I'm not saying that there aren't because 1:33:05.520 --> 1:33:08.000 some people aren't talk to people just flat wrong. But um, 1:33:08.080 --> 1:33:11.960 at the same time, most of skin fine common ground 1:33:12.479 --> 1:33:14.360 and I think that's a skill that we have gotten 1:33:14.400 --> 1:33:16.720 away from. Here's a phrase that I've been here and 1:33:16.800 --> 1:33:20.760 come up in a couple of often. Uh, And I 1:33:20.800 --> 1:33:23.840 think it's a term that sociologists would use. Maybe it's 1:33:23.880 --> 1:33:28.520 kind of a not slang, but but tribalism, like tribalism 1:33:28.760 --> 1:33:31.800 could be described, I mean, we we would find it 1:33:31.880 --> 1:33:35.160 in modern society. And basically my wife described this to 1:33:35.200 --> 1:33:38.320 me the other day. Tribalism is a mentality that says 1:33:38.439 --> 1:33:42.000 there's us and then there's them. Yeah, it's that simple. 1:33:42.920 --> 1:33:48.000 And and the politically charged environment that we live in 1:33:49.120 --> 1:33:54.680 is pushing people deeper and deeper into tribalism. And tribalism 1:33:55.479 --> 1:33:58.080 is in the phrase tribalism has nothing to do with 1:33:58.240 --> 1:34:01.040 like native cultures like that. When we when we hear 1:34:01.080 --> 1:34:03.200 that word sometimes we like go back in history. That's 1:34:03.240 --> 1:34:05.920 not what we're talking about. We're talking about like sociological 1:34:06.400 --> 1:34:10.640 or like just like default ways that humans segregate themselves, 1:34:11.320 --> 1:34:13.040 you know. And uh, I mean it could be in 1:34:13.080 --> 1:34:15.400 a room of ten people and you leave them in 1:34:15.400 --> 1:34:18.639 there for two hours and you'll find that there's groups 1:34:18.720 --> 1:34:22.679 that begin to form and like um, and so generally, 1:34:22.880 --> 1:34:28.200 when it comes to solving problems, tribalism is negative and 1:34:28.320 --> 1:34:29.960 so like I look at it like that, and man, 1:34:30.000 --> 1:34:33.360 I'm guilty. I mean, like thinking about that the outdoor 1:34:33.880 --> 1:34:35.800 like the you know, the kind of like thinking about 1:34:35.880 --> 1:34:39.880 the the outdoor guy. You know, it's like, I think 1:34:40.000 --> 1:34:43.120 he's different than me. He goes to the mountains, but 1:34:43.200 --> 1:34:45.640 he's different than me. He probably doesn't understand me. He 1:34:45.760 --> 1:34:48.479 probably is judging me because I'm a hunter. He probably 1:34:49.080 --> 1:34:52.440 thinks I'm a barbarians, like all these things like reinforce 1:34:52.600 --> 1:34:55.639 my bias. And really, when I met you, and I see, 1:34:55.680 --> 1:34:57.599 I didn't know, I mean even up until a month ago, 1:34:57.720 --> 1:35:01.120 I didn't know that you were involved with Packrad and 1:35:02.120 --> 1:35:05.760 who wouldn't. I mean, Packrad is like the place for mountaineering. 1:35:05.880 --> 1:35:08.800 Client is a beautiful, awesome store, and so like it's 1:35:08.880 --> 1:35:14.000 kind of like I've known that for I've been like 1:35:14.320 --> 1:35:17.080 I would have been like, man, Packard is really not 1:35:17.200 --> 1:35:22.320 my mind. Big people feel that way. Yeah, And then 1:35:22.400 --> 1:35:24.760 I meet you and I'm like, oh, man, here's this 1:35:24.880 --> 1:35:30.280 guy who is deep inside of all this adventure sports 1:35:30.320 --> 1:35:33.800 and stuff. And I thought those people, I mean, I'm 1:35:33.840 --> 1:35:36.559 I'm just confessing. I would have thought that those people 1:35:36.640 --> 1:35:39.320 would not have tipped their hat to the hunting world. 1:35:39.720 --> 1:35:44.400 And I think it's I think it's uh, it's both 1:35:44.439 --> 1:35:47.479 of us kind of dropping dropping that tribalism in a 1:35:47.560 --> 1:35:50.080 way in finding ways to be inclusive. And that's what 1:35:50.760 --> 1:35:56.320 you know. Uh yeah, I think, and I mean quite frankly, 1:35:56.360 --> 1:35:59.280 I don't see a way around solving a lot of 1:35:59.360 --> 1:36:01.800 modern problems we have in life unless we look at 1:36:01.840 --> 1:36:04.160 it that way. We have to learn how to have 1:36:04.560 --> 1:36:07.719 conversations we thought with each other and not get worked 1:36:07.800 --> 1:36:11.400 up about it like that's so much. Usually it's not 1:36:11.560 --> 1:36:14.800 the other guy, it's it's you that's the problem. When 1:36:14.840 --> 1:36:19.000 I was like me thinking about like not being and 1:36:19.040 --> 1:36:22.640 when I say not, I mean like like like I 1:36:22.800 --> 1:36:26.240 might have felt uncomfortable, like whearing, like uh if I 1:36:26.360 --> 1:36:28.920 was dec you got a meat eat or shirt on, 1:36:29.280 --> 1:36:33.800 you know, or whatever you know. But the usually the 1:36:33.880 --> 1:36:37.080 problems with you When I say you, I'm pointing to myself, 1:36:37.600 --> 1:36:42.560 Like so when I met you, even the preconceived ideas 1:36:42.640 --> 1:36:44.559 that you know, probably the people of this place aren't 1:36:44.640 --> 1:36:48.760 cool with hunting, that was my problem actually yea, because 1:36:48.800 --> 1:36:51.120 it wasn't true. Well, and I'm I'm as guilty as 1:36:51.120 --> 1:36:53.679 anybody I've been in the exact sames you know, scenario 1:36:53.880 --> 1:36:57.040 and other, you know, aspects of things that I've gotten 1:36:57.080 --> 1:36:59.880 into that I wasn't as familiar with. And I was like, oh, 1:37:00.080 --> 1:37:03.120 these you know, this is kind of a different group 1:37:03.160 --> 1:37:05.360 of people that I'm used to hanging around. And right 1:37:05.400 --> 1:37:07.640 away it's like you put your fence up right and 1:37:07.720 --> 1:37:10.439 you put your guard up a little bit. Um, maybe 1:37:10.640 --> 1:37:14.240 maybe before you really should. Um. But you know, again, 1:37:14.320 --> 1:37:17.160 we're all a product of our life experiences and we're 1:37:17.320 --> 1:37:19.920 used to being in, for lack of a better term, 1:37:20.040 --> 1:37:21.599 kind of a little bit of a tribe. We're used 1:37:21.600 --> 1:37:23.760 to being around a certain type of a group of 1:37:23.840 --> 1:37:27.600 people that often have a particular set of values that 1:37:27.720 --> 1:37:30.160 you identify with for easily. And as soon as you 1:37:30.320 --> 1:37:34.200 cross over into another you know, tribe or you know 1:37:34.280 --> 1:37:36.439 whatever you want to call that, um, some of those 1:37:36.479 --> 1:37:39.200 things start to come into question. But I would say 1:37:39.360 --> 1:37:44.360 sometimes that happens needlessly um and uh. And and that's 1:37:44.400 --> 1:37:45.880 not to say it isn't gonna happen, because it will. 1:37:45.960 --> 1:37:52.280 You're gonna come to issues with people, UM. But uh. 1:37:53.240 --> 1:37:54.800 I don't know if we all just kind of take 1:37:54.840 --> 1:37:56.880 step back sometimes and look at thanks for what they are. 1:37:56.960 --> 1:37:58.479 I think we make a lot of bigger deal out 1:37:58.520 --> 1:38:00.800 of things than we should. Well, that truth is is 1:38:00.880 --> 1:38:06.720 that you know, there's a there's a methodology or a 1:38:06.880 --> 1:38:11.839 philosophy for the preservation of something where people would retreat 1:38:11.920 --> 1:38:15.240 to their fortresses. You know, I've heard that phrase, you know, 1:38:15.439 --> 1:38:19.200 into for for modern hunters to retreat to the fortress, 1:38:19.520 --> 1:38:21.760 which to me, I mean that would be like my 1:38:22.000 --> 1:38:27.200 native thing, my like my native like frequency would be like, oh, 1:38:27.320 --> 1:38:31.400 we gotta we gotta stick even further to the things 1:38:31.520 --> 1:38:37.360 that our fathers did. Actually, the way to save hunting, 1:38:37.479 --> 1:38:40.640 which our biggest threat to our way of life and 1:38:40.680 --> 1:38:42.200 the thing that we love and the wild life that 1:38:42.280 --> 1:38:44.200 we love in the wild places that we love, is 1:38:44.280 --> 1:38:48.400 recruitment of new people and I mean in it and 1:38:48.640 --> 1:38:51.679 and and so we have to find ways to keep 1:38:51.760 --> 1:38:54.680 the gate open. It's funny you say that because I 1:38:54.800 --> 1:38:57.120 think on one of your recent podcasts, I listened to 1:38:57.600 --> 1:39:00.640 you using the term guard to guard the game. But 1:39:01.360 --> 1:39:03.920 I think it's it's interesting that you you just kind 1:39:03.960 --> 1:39:07.040 of flipped that, right. You also maybe guard the gate 1:39:07.160 --> 1:39:09.200 like that's one term, but I think mine to the 1:39:09.280 --> 1:39:12.080 gate is maybe even sometimes a better way to think 1:39:12.120 --> 1:39:14.160 about it, because it's not like when you say guard 1:39:14.240 --> 1:39:16.360 the gate you want to protect it, and I think 1:39:16.439 --> 1:39:18.720 I believe that there's a reason to protect what it 1:39:18.880 --> 1:39:21.000 is that you love. But you don't want to guard 1:39:21.040 --> 1:39:23.280 the gate to the extent that you don't let anyone 1:39:23.320 --> 1:39:26.840 else in, because at that point you kind of doom 1:39:26.880 --> 1:39:30.559 in yourself, right, um, because I know you've you've got 1:39:30.640 --> 1:39:33.360 that picture back here of that hunting scene and I've 1:39:33.439 --> 1:39:35.160 heard that one where you were talking about that and 1:39:35.240 --> 1:39:38.000 that's gone now, right, And if all we do is 1:39:38.040 --> 1:39:41.120 guard the gate, at some point down the road, our 1:39:41.120 --> 1:39:43.160 stuff is gonna be done too. Well. We have to 1:39:43.400 --> 1:39:48.080 you know, we have to have at least enough wherewithal 1:39:48.280 --> 1:39:50.760 and fullward thinking that you know, it's like, yeah, we're 1:39:50.760 --> 1:39:53.040 gonna be a little bit careful about things, but we 1:39:53.120 --> 1:39:56.479 gotta let some people into. Yeah, yeah, And I gotta 1:39:56.560 --> 1:39:59.680 clarify that guard the gate metaphor you know that to me, 1:40:00.240 --> 1:40:02.240 like what we're talking about to me is guarding the 1:40:02.320 --> 1:40:06.519 gate like that, you know, just the semantics because we 1:40:06.600 --> 1:40:08.640 have to use that so much. Like to me, the 1:40:08.920 --> 1:40:12.479 guard the gate idea is is building a strong narrative, 1:40:12.560 --> 1:40:16.960 building a strong culture, and and and and particularly that 1:40:17.280 --> 1:40:21.960 phrase we use and we're talking about like adamant, intentional 1:40:22.160 --> 1:40:25.240 anti hunting sentiment that is designed to I was looking 1:40:25.320 --> 1:40:29.040 at the Humane Society of America website today actually, and 1:40:29.160 --> 1:40:32.439 you know, one of their like six mission statements is, 1:40:32.760 --> 1:40:36.320 you know, ending hunting, and they use the term trophy hunting, 1:40:36.760 --> 1:40:39.720 which obviously that's a that is a that is an 1:40:39.800 --> 1:40:44.559 inflammatory phrase that they used to try to portray us 1:40:44.560 --> 1:40:47.760 in a certain way, you know whatever. But point being, 1:40:48.520 --> 1:40:51.240 that's to me, to me, this is you know, gardens, 1:40:51.520 --> 1:40:56.200 but not not to get but we we have to 1:40:56.560 --> 1:40:59.960 we have to find ways to be inclusive, inclusive, inclusive, 1:41:00.000 --> 1:41:04.640 include and and and ultimately bring people into you know, 1:41:04.760 --> 1:41:07.160 it's not like we're just wanting to preserve our our 1:41:08.000 --> 1:41:10.080 the stuff we get to do that we like, but man, 1:41:11.000 --> 1:41:15.759 the outdoor space, clean, healthy meat, the things that hunting 1:41:15.840 --> 1:41:17.400 has done for me, it's something that I would like 1:41:17.520 --> 1:41:20.799 to share with people absolutely. And you know there's always 1:41:20.880 --> 1:41:23.519 by products. If just maybe you're not into bird watching, 1:41:24.120 --> 1:41:27.400 but by taking steps towards conservation and whatever it is 1:41:27.479 --> 1:41:29.760 you're into, it makes the area better for those people 1:41:29.800 --> 1:41:32.080 that are into bird watching, right or whatever. So there's 1:41:32.120 --> 1:41:35.040 so many ways the things that these things, you know, 1:41:35.160 --> 1:41:37.840 can cross over. And I just in my gut, I've 1:41:37.840 --> 1:41:39.960 always believed that, you know, we have a whole lot 1:41:40.080 --> 1:41:41.880 more to gain by working together and a whole lot 1:41:41.960 --> 1:41:45.400 to lose if we don't um. And so you know, 1:41:45.800 --> 1:41:47.880 that's one of the reasons that uh, you know, I'm 1:41:47.920 --> 1:41:51.000 involved with Artistel b h A because you know, no 1:41:51.320 --> 1:41:53.960 organization is perfect. You know, they're not going to have 1:41:54.120 --> 1:41:57.080 all the answers, and they're gonna do things that you know, 1:41:57.240 --> 1:42:02.360 not everybody agrees with. But I think in they're they're 1:42:02.360 --> 1:42:04.479 trying to put the best foot forward, you know, trying 1:42:04.520 --> 1:42:08.000 to do it to protect first and foremost, protect the 1:42:08.120 --> 1:42:11.800 resources of hunters and anglers. But they're trying to do 1:42:11.960 --> 1:42:14.160 it in such a way, at least from my perspective, 1:42:14.160 --> 1:42:16.400 they're trying to do it in a way that is 1:42:16.479 --> 1:42:20.240 not off putting to other people in the outdoor community, 1:42:20.640 --> 1:42:23.200 you know, in the outdoor industry, and I kind of 1:42:23.280 --> 1:42:25.479 don't see another way forward, you know, man, I was 1:42:25.560 --> 1:42:27.519 at the b h A Rendezvous a couple of years 1:42:27.520 --> 1:42:33.479 ago when Ivan Schevard how you say his name? He 1:42:33.680 --> 1:42:37.559 spoke and Uh at the b h A Rendevo owner 1:42:37.640 --> 1:42:40.880 of and founder of Patagonia, eighty year old man um 1:42:41.720 --> 1:42:47.000 Man I thought that was awesome, incredible that this guy that, 1:42:47.400 --> 1:42:51.240 I mean a billionaire number one uh and out that 1:42:51.320 --> 1:42:53.360 that gives him value. He's he seems to me to 1:42:53.400 --> 1:43:00.880 be a pretty incredible man. Uh, massive proponent of wild places. Um. 1:43:02.000 --> 1:43:05.200 And we'll tip his hat to hunting. I mean, he 1:43:05.280 --> 1:43:08.759 was in a room with Fred bad to the bone 1:43:08.880 --> 1:43:12.679 Western Hunters and he's setting up there telling stories about 1:43:12.720 --> 1:43:15.000 pulling over to throw a road kill deer in the 1:43:15.040 --> 1:43:18.000 back of his truck to take it home and eat it. Um. 1:43:19.120 --> 1:43:24.880 And I had people message me and ridicule me because 1:43:24.920 --> 1:43:27.120 I put something up that had his name on it. 1:43:27.640 --> 1:43:29.880 And this guy, this one guy said, did you know 1:43:30.040 --> 1:43:33.880 that Ivan Schevard is against hunting brown bears and the 1:43:34.120 --> 1:43:37.040 Yellowstone ecosystem or you know, in the Greater Yellowstone area? 1:43:38.120 --> 1:43:40.080 And at the time I actually did, and I said no, 1:43:40.240 --> 1:43:42.439 I didn't. And I was like, I don't know why 1:43:42.560 --> 1:43:46.840 that has any impact on me, saying that what just 1:43:47.040 --> 1:43:50.680 happened with this guy coming and tipping his hat to 1:43:50.800 --> 1:43:54.519 us and like and and there that story right there, 1:43:54.680 --> 1:43:59.200 to me describes kind of again this polarization. Like basically 1:43:59.280 --> 1:44:01.240 this guy was saying, is if you don't agree with 1:44:01.320 --> 1:44:04.840 me and we can't be friends. Well, man, I won't 1:44:04.920 --> 1:44:09.160 have a friend on the planet and in in to 1:44:09.280 --> 1:44:14.400 me for something. Somebody from Patagonia tipping their hat to 1:44:14.520 --> 1:44:17.160 the hunting world, which they're not gaining anything from that. 1:44:17.520 --> 1:44:21.040 They've got a they've got such a massive market, like 1:44:21.160 --> 1:44:23.880 the little market of hunters that they could gain from, 1:44:24.000 --> 1:44:26.240 you know. And we're not going to buy padagon your 1:44:26.240 --> 1:44:29.000 clothing anyway. We're wearing a lot of other stuff. Like 1:44:30.000 --> 1:44:32.240 what I'm saying is he's got a lot more to 1:44:32.320 --> 1:44:35.120 lose than he does to gain. We've got a massive 1:44:35.439 --> 1:44:37.960 amount that we could gain from and I'm not saying 1:44:38.040 --> 1:44:39.880 And what that guy is saying is that we would 1:44:39.880 --> 1:44:43.840 be lower in our standards to let some of these 1:44:43.920 --> 1:44:47.240 people into our space. To me, that's retreating to the fortress. 1:44:47.479 --> 1:44:50.840 Do you see what I'm saying? Like, basically, man, we 1:44:50.960 --> 1:44:53.479 just can't do it. And I I am not happy 1:44:53.600 --> 1:44:57.360 that he is. I mean, I am for the science 1:44:57.439 --> 1:45:00.680 based wildlife management practices in a all, I mean, we 1:45:00.680 --> 1:45:02.840 could get into all the details. It's Clay who can 1:45:02.920 --> 1:45:06.040 four hunting brown bears, grizzly bears and the Greater Yellows 1:45:06.120 --> 1:45:10.120 one ecosystem under a quota and science bace management. Absolutely, 1:45:11.720 --> 1:45:17.160 am I offended and unwilling to work with Ivan Snard 1:45:17.600 --> 1:45:21.640 because he thinks that you're crazy? Well, and then the 1:45:21.720 --> 1:45:27.440 other thing is is like who can possibly be educated 1:45:27.520 --> 1:45:31.880 and informed enough to understand the science behind all these 1:45:31.960 --> 1:45:34.599 different issues? Right? And at the end of the day, 1:45:34.640 --> 1:45:37.599 we're all humans. I've said plenty of things in my life, 1:45:37.640 --> 1:45:39.639 and I'm gonna say plenty of things that I look 1:45:39.680 --> 1:45:41.280 back on and be like, you know what, I was wrong? 1:45:42.080 --> 1:45:44.839 You know what I mean? Um, And I think anybody 1:45:44.920 --> 1:45:47.400 that thinks otherwise just kidding herselves. I mean, we're all 1:45:47.479 --> 1:45:50.240 just humans. We make mistakes, and we can change our mind. 1:45:50.360 --> 1:45:53.600 It's okay, you know. And it's just such a in 1:45:53.680 --> 1:45:58.360 the environment that that I see us in and not 1:45:58.520 --> 1:46:00.479 just our own country but around the world old right now, 1:46:00.520 --> 1:46:02.759 it's just like it just seems like no one's willing 1:46:02.800 --> 1:46:05.960 to go and change their mind. It's okay, It's okay 1:46:06.040 --> 1:46:10.080 to have a change in perspective. Um, you know, It's 1:46:11.080 --> 1:46:13.920 I don't know why that's so scary to some people, 1:46:14.320 --> 1:46:15.880 you know. And I guess maybe I've made a who 1:46:15.880 --> 1:46:19.760 lot more mistakes in my lifetime a lot of other 1:46:19.840 --> 1:46:22.479 people have. I don't know, and maybe you're still alive 1:46:23.920 --> 1:46:26.680 too many mistakes, but you know, I just think that 1:46:26.840 --> 1:46:29.519 sometimes again it's just you know, calm down a little bit, 1:46:29.640 --> 1:46:31.960 take step back, and yeah it's gonna be okay. You know, 1:46:32.120 --> 1:46:34.559 let's let's work together instead of trying to put each 1:46:34.560 --> 1:46:39.519 other down. Yeah. So well, man, I I admire what 1:46:39.720 --> 1:46:42.960 you're doing and the voice that that you have inside, 1:46:43.040 --> 1:46:46.360 even just locally in what you're doing. Uh. And I mean, 1:46:46.439 --> 1:46:49.720 I think you're a great spokesman for for hunting to 1:46:49.840 --> 1:46:53.439 a bunch of people that probably wouldn't listen to or 1:46:53.520 --> 1:46:56.600 have a reason to listen to somebody like me or 1:46:56.680 --> 1:47:03.200 Kolbe uh, mainly because Kobe is from Texas. But sorry, 1:47:08.120 --> 1:47:15.120 that's now. I man, I love your story. Uh, respect 1:47:15.200 --> 1:47:20.240 what you're doing and um um yeah, well likewise, man, uh, 1:47:20.560 --> 1:47:23.679 you know, the I'm just was pleased to be asked 1:47:23.720 --> 1:47:25.920 to do this today. The content you've been putting out 1:47:26.240 --> 1:47:29.000 for a while now has been very high quality, and uh, 1:47:29.160 --> 1:47:31.479 to you know, have an opportunity to come and sort 1:47:31.520 --> 1:47:33.479 of be a part of that message that you've been 1:47:33.600 --> 1:47:35.280 you know, doing your best put out there. It was 1:47:35.600 --> 1:47:39.080 a great opportunity and I appreciate it. Um, you know, 1:47:40.560 --> 1:47:43.560 I guess you know, we all have a role to 1:47:43.640 --> 1:47:46.760 play and you can step back and you know, living 1:47:46.840 --> 1:47:49.960 your own bubble and and uh, you know, just do 1:47:50.160 --> 1:47:52.560 you And that's fine if that's what you want to do. 1:47:52.720 --> 1:47:55.720 And you know, but UM, I don't know. I look 1:47:55.760 --> 1:47:57.960 at my kids and I see the world we're living in, 1:47:58.120 --> 1:48:00.800 and I sure do you feel like we could do 1:48:00.920 --> 1:48:04.160 better sometimes then we're doing, or at least maybe make 1:48:04.240 --> 1:48:07.400 some changes to put ourselves and maybe a more favorable 1:48:07.560 --> 1:48:09.600 trajectory for the young people that are coming up in 1:48:09.640 --> 1:48:12.680 the world right now. And UM, you know, I'm just 1:48:12.800 --> 1:48:15.439 a guy, but I want to do what I can 1:48:15.520 --> 1:48:20.120 to trying to help make a difference. So right on, um, 1:48:20.200 --> 1:48:23.479 where can people find Yeah? So, um, of course you 1:48:23.560 --> 1:48:27.400 mentioned already, I'm a part owner and officially my title 1:48:27.479 --> 1:48:30.040 at Packard is the the equipment buyers, so all the 1:48:30.120 --> 1:48:32.040 gear and that stuff in the store. That's where of 1:48:32.120 --> 1:48:35.040 my main responsibility. But I teach classes there as well, 1:48:35.120 --> 1:48:38.840 and they're you know, various types of wilderness skills. Of course, 1:48:38.880 --> 1:48:40.880 a lot of that got put on hold due to COVID, 1:48:40.960 --> 1:48:45.439 but you can, um looks hip at packardoc dot com. Um. 1:48:45.520 --> 1:48:48.040 But the place I spend most of my time is 1:48:48.200 --> 1:48:51.240 on Instagram and um, you know, kind of show people 1:48:51.280 --> 1:48:55.080 what I'm into. And uh you can literally just Rick Spicer. 1:48:55.720 --> 1:48:59.920 Uh most of that is um photography for because I 1:49:00.280 --> 1:49:03.760 am amateur photographer. I just love taking photographs on trips. Um. 1:49:03.880 --> 1:49:06.519 So most of that stuff is just like, uh, kind 1:49:06.560 --> 1:49:10.000 of nature photography type of stuff. But pack rat bushcraft 1:49:10.439 --> 1:49:16.040 on Instagram, that's them. That's the main one that most 1:49:16.080 --> 1:49:19.320 people know me from. And um, that's where I'm just 1:49:19.520 --> 1:49:22.719 kind of kind of spend you know, my dirt time 1:49:22.800 --> 1:49:26.280 and uh, you know, whatever it is I'm into, whether 1:49:26.360 --> 1:49:28.200 it's you know, building a bow or some arrows or 1:49:28.600 --> 1:49:31.799 doing friction fire, you know what, who knows, hunting, whatever 1:49:31.840 --> 1:49:35.679 it is. Um, so putting stuff out there. But Colvid, 1:49:35.720 --> 1:49:38.800 do you have any questions for I'm sure I do. 1:49:39.120 --> 1:49:41.400 I got caught up in the conversation of just listening 1:49:41.520 --> 1:49:44.200 but always heads like on a swivel. It's just like 1:49:45.200 --> 1:49:49.760 it's like and forth, you got you gotta interrupt us, man. 1:49:50.240 --> 1:49:53.439 The only way that you get any word between me 1:49:54.120 --> 1:49:56.800 and I guess that is to interrupt us. We've covered 1:49:56.800 --> 1:50:05.160 a lot of ground there too, so so guess my summary. Yeah, 1:50:05.520 --> 1:50:07.560 I'm just deep in thought over here, you know, I 1:50:07.720 --> 1:50:10.760 was just thinking about the whole thing between hunting and 1:50:11.120 --> 1:50:14.880 this adventurous lifestyle. And for me growing up, I got 1:50:16.120 --> 1:50:18.519 without knowing it. I was caught up in the utility 1:50:18.680 --> 1:50:21.880 of of hunting more so than the adventure, you know, 1:50:22.080 --> 1:50:24.600 just going out. It's like this is successful if we 1:50:24.680 --> 1:50:27.439 come back with something, or the whole concept of catch 1:50:27.520 --> 1:50:30.479 and release fishing was out of my mind, you know. 1:50:31.080 --> 1:50:34.559 And so since I've been here inside of Arkansas, I've 1:50:34.640 --> 1:50:37.560 begun to appreciate all these things where you don't you 1:50:37.600 --> 1:50:40.160 don't have some utility, you're like going out and bringing 1:50:40.200 --> 1:50:43.479 back something tangible. So like I've gotten into the hiking 1:50:43.640 --> 1:50:47.160 and road biking and fly fishing and so all these 1:50:47.240 --> 1:50:50.759 things have just I've kind of gone the opposite direction 1:50:50.840 --> 1:50:52.680 where I started out with the utility of hunting, and 1:50:52.720 --> 1:50:54.760 I appreciated all the things that I got out of it, 1:50:55.439 --> 1:50:58.280 but I missed out on the whole adventurous side of it. 1:50:58.400 --> 1:51:01.600 So like we went with mules to Montana, you know, 1:51:02.240 --> 1:51:05.080 that was that was a big thing for me to 1:51:05.160 --> 1:51:07.320 where it's like, man, this is actually fun to get 1:51:07.320 --> 1:51:10.240 out and just adventure instead of just going out and 1:51:10.360 --> 1:51:12.800 just seeing I'm just going out for it to fill 1:51:12.840 --> 1:51:14.920 the freezer. I don't care if it's a spike or whatever, 1:51:15.080 --> 1:51:17.479 you know. And uh and so I think that's the 1:51:17.560 --> 1:51:22.799 appreciation that that I've come into inside of living inside 1:51:22.840 --> 1:51:25.599 of Arkansas versus Texas, where it's like you go from 1:51:26.000 --> 1:51:29.960 not having these you know, national forests and public lands 1:51:30.000 --> 1:51:32.200 to a place to where I can just go and 1:51:32.320 --> 1:51:34.519 roam without having to knock on some door, get ahold 1:51:34.560 --> 1:51:37.920 of somebody. And uh and so I I think like 1:51:37.960 --> 1:51:40.560 when you're talking about bush craft man, I'd like to 1:51:40.640 --> 1:51:44.439 do that, you know, just understand more about just build 1:51:44.479 --> 1:51:48.120 an adaptability inside of me so that if I find 1:51:48.200 --> 1:51:51.120 myself in some situation or just I mean walking by 1:51:51.240 --> 1:51:53.280 some plant that I wouldn't know what it is. Now 1:51:53.800 --> 1:51:55.240 if I'm walking down a trail and I see it, 1:51:55.280 --> 1:51:59.200 it's like, oh that's cool, you know. And just growing 1:51:59.280 --> 1:52:01.840 this appreciate ation for the environment that I that I 1:52:01.960 --> 1:52:06.040 find myself in and draws me into. But just building 1:52:06.040 --> 1:52:10.320 an ability to it's it's like another a deeper level 1:52:10.400 --> 1:52:13.280 of communing with nature, where before my commune with nature 1:52:13.320 --> 1:52:15.439 would be like I'm gonna go and it's gonna provide 1:52:15.479 --> 1:52:17.360 for me, I'm gonna take something out of it to 1:52:17.479 --> 1:52:19.880 where I can just go and just exist inside of it, 1:52:19.920 --> 1:52:23.200 can get a lot of appreciation inside of that for 1:52:23.760 --> 1:52:26.720 me myself. And you know, what I'm bringing back might 1:52:26.760 --> 1:52:29.080 be something different. It's just bringing back an experience rather 1:52:29.200 --> 1:52:31.840 than oh, I'm gonna go and actually like pull something 1:52:31.920 --> 1:52:34.519 out of it, you know, absolutely here. I think that's 1:52:34.560 --> 1:52:40.599 something that we could learn from the adventure outdoor side 1:52:41.360 --> 1:52:43.720 because that's a great point. I think. I think it's 1:52:43.720 --> 1:52:47.519 a really notable point Colby, because the hunting mind frame 1:52:48.040 --> 1:52:51.200 is to get something to bring back the you know, 1:52:51.880 --> 1:52:55.840 adventure outdoors and mind frame is to is for the experience. 1:52:56.640 --> 1:53:00.200 And obviously there's a there's a in the last some 1:53:00.479 --> 1:53:03.080 time and hunting, Like we have talked about the experience 1:53:03.120 --> 1:53:06.200 a lot and how that's valuable. But still like I 1:53:06.320 --> 1:53:10.040 think combining kind of these two ideologies you probably get 1:53:10.080 --> 1:53:12.720 a really rich experience, if that makes sense. I think so. 1:53:12.920 --> 1:53:15.240 And you know, one thing that I can think back about, 1:53:15.680 --> 1:53:18.120 you know, talk having stories with my dad or my 1:53:18.240 --> 1:53:21.360 grandpa about going out, it is like the older they got, 1:53:21.560 --> 1:53:24.720 the less they cared about actually getting anything. They just 1:53:24.840 --> 1:53:28.960 wanted that time with their family and kind of communing 1:53:29.040 --> 1:53:32.280 with the natural environment. Right and Uh, as much as 1:53:32.320 --> 1:53:34.760 my grandpa loved to fish, he just wanted to be 1:53:34.840 --> 1:53:38.240 out there. And Uh, what I'd like to see maybe 1:53:38.360 --> 1:53:40.719 is a little more of that mentality trickle down into 1:53:40.840 --> 1:53:44.439 younger people and it's not always about getting something. You know, 1:53:44.680 --> 1:53:46.960 and if you do great and in the whole providing 1:53:47.040 --> 1:53:49.479 for your family thing. I mean, that's a critical component 1:53:49.600 --> 1:53:53.680 of hunting, and I think everyone should recognize that for 1:53:53.760 --> 1:53:57.240 what it is. But I think it's it's also okay 1:53:58.520 --> 1:54:01.240 just to look at it from you know, from a 1:54:02.240 --> 1:54:04.720 even uh you know, you look at nowadays with all 1:54:04.760 --> 1:54:10.000 this COVID craziness going on. Uh, we need wilderness and 1:54:10.120 --> 1:54:12.560 wild places right now, maybe more than we have in 1:54:12.600 --> 1:54:15.559 a long time for mental health reasons. Right where all 1:54:15.680 --> 1:54:17.720 you know, people are cooped up and you got a 1:54:18.280 --> 1:54:21.200 whether it's wearing a mask or whatever it is. Uh, 1:54:21.479 --> 1:54:24.360 you know, the ability to walk out into a place 1:54:24.439 --> 1:54:27.400 and just kind of not look at there's nature and 1:54:27.520 --> 1:54:30.600 here's me. But more of the I'm part of this. 1:54:31.360 --> 1:54:33.160 I came from this, and one day I'm going to 1:54:33.240 --> 1:54:37.120 go back to this um and so I may as 1:54:37.160 --> 1:54:39.840 well figure out a way to kind of be connected 1:54:39.920 --> 1:54:43.480 to it. And I guess that's ultimately what's let me 1:54:43.600 --> 1:54:46.040 down the path that UM I have is like I 1:54:46.160 --> 1:54:48.400 just like that feeling. I like, I like the feeling 1:54:48.480 --> 1:54:52.240 of feel like I'm more part of the woods than uh, 1:54:52.360 --> 1:54:56.600 separated from it. It's a good way to put it. 1:54:57.160 --> 1:55:01.920 I guess. One last thing I mentioned, uh that unfortunately, 1:55:02.000 --> 1:55:04.000 like every other event I know of, it got canceled 1:55:04.080 --> 1:55:07.160 this year. But another thing that I do is I'm 1:55:07.200 --> 1:55:11.560 the director of a wilderness skills challenge. UM that's called 1:55:11.640 --> 1:55:14.800 the Brewha bush Whack. That's kind of a mouthful, but 1:55:14.920 --> 1:55:16.320 um there's a website for it. You can go to 1:55:16.360 --> 1:55:19.360 Brewhaw bush Whack dot com and uh it's kind of 1:55:19.400 --> 1:55:21.840 a cool thing that me and some friends started about 1:55:21.880 --> 1:55:26.640 five years ago. And um so if if the listeners, 1:55:26.760 --> 1:55:30.160 if you're familiar with an adventure race, right, um, you know, 1:55:30.520 --> 1:55:33.080 typically the way those traditionally would work was you'd get 1:55:33.080 --> 1:55:35.840 a topographical map and there'd be points on that map 1:55:36.320 --> 1:55:40.080 and you would, uh you'd go like maybe ride a 1:55:40.120 --> 1:55:42.560 bike or run or hike and paddle a canoe and 1:55:42.600 --> 1:55:45.360 all these kinds of things, and you go find those points. Well, 1:55:45.400 --> 1:55:50.320 what we did was I decided I thought that was interesting, um, 1:55:50.520 --> 1:55:53.120 but I wanted to maybe make it a little more 1:55:53.960 --> 1:55:56.640 in the in the realm of this bushcraft and wilderness 1:55:56.640 --> 1:55:59.440 skills stuff. So, um, first, the first thing we did 1:55:59.560 --> 1:56:03.440 was we took away the whole race component of it 1:56:03.760 --> 1:56:05.440 and we designed it so that you can come in 1:56:05.600 --> 1:56:07.840 last and win. I couldn't have anything to do how 1:56:07.920 --> 1:56:10.080 fast you are, and so that was one of the 1:56:10.120 --> 1:56:12.240 first things that we did. But and so instead of 1:56:12.320 --> 1:56:15.080 time based, it's point based. And so it's all about 1:56:15.120 --> 1:56:19.480 being a well rounded outdoors person. So you still use 1:56:19.520 --> 1:56:23.120 a topographical map, but you go where you want, when 1:56:23.200 --> 1:56:25.640 you want. You plan your own course for the day. 1:56:25.960 --> 1:56:28.440 So it's about your ability to understand and read the 1:56:28.560 --> 1:56:32.760 map and create a a plan basically, and when you 1:56:33.240 --> 1:56:36.280 successfully arrive at a location, there's a password, you write 1:56:36.320 --> 1:56:37.880 it down and you get a point for that at 1:56:37.920 --> 1:56:39.240 the end of the day when you're great or you 1:56:39.280 --> 1:56:41.880 get a certain number of points. Uh. The next thing 1:56:42.080 --> 1:56:45.360 is is there's um some sort of wilderness skill that 1:56:45.440 --> 1:56:48.240 you have to show proficiency in, whether that's making a fire, 1:56:48.320 --> 1:56:50.760 doing for some first s aid or paddling a canoe 1:56:51.480 --> 1:56:56.120 or rope skills whatever it may be, there you go, 1:56:57.480 --> 1:56:59.600 and that brings up one of the things that we're 1:56:59.600 --> 1:57:01.000 gonna go heavy in this year. I've done it in 1:57:01.080 --> 1:57:04.560 the past, but we always have primitive weapons. We do archery, 1:57:04.640 --> 1:57:07.800 we do at laddles, we do sling shots, we do blowguns, 1:57:07.880 --> 1:57:10.440 we do all kinds of stuff. There's always a primitive weapon. 1:57:11.880 --> 1:57:14.960 But this year, um, and I'm then this is probably 1:57:15.000 --> 1:57:18.440 a theme going forward, is that, um, the teams were 1:57:18.480 --> 1:57:20.240 all gonna have to have at least one person that 1:57:20.400 --> 1:57:21.880 was gonna have a bow with him the whole time, 1:57:22.200 --> 1:57:25.040 and they're gonna be shooting throughout the whole course. So 1:57:25.400 --> 1:57:27.040 that kind of changed the game a little bit in 1:57:27.200 --> 1:57:29.640 terms of making it a lot more interesting for archers 1:57:29.680 --> 1:57:31.680 and hunters and that type of thing. And then the 1:57:31.760 --> 1:57:35.160 third component of it is pure nature knowledge. So UM, 1:57:35.200 --> 1:57:39.920 they'll be like key words are i D Components to 1:57:40.120 --> 1:57:44.240 things like trees and plants and animal tracks, even stone points, 1:57:44.680 --> 1:57:46.600 and you have to tell me what those things are. 1:57:47.080 --> 1:57:49.720 You take the cumulative of all those different skills, and 1:57:49.760 --> 1:57:55.680 whoever gets the most point wins, and it's a it's 1:57:55.720 --> 1:57:59.120 in April every year, and we have postponed to UM. 1:57:59.240 --> 1:58:01.800 It's actually if you're here in Arkansas, you may be 1:58:01.920 --> 1:58:04.280 familiar with it. But there's a place called Bird's Adventure 1:58:04.360 --> 1:58:07.360 Center on the Mulberry River and that's where we have 1:58:07.480 --> 1:58:10.560 it every year. I'm good friends with those folks and 1:58:10.640 --> 1:58:13.160 they have a huge piece of private land. And in addition, 1:58:13.600 --> 1:58:16.880 I typically get permits from the Forest Service and we 1:58:17.040 --> 1:58:20.200 go out and so UM, teams can expect and you 1:58:20.280 --> 1:58:22.640 have to compete as a team because there's teamwork involved. 1:58:22.720 --> 1:58:25.440 It's not a solo event. UM. But you can expect 1:58:25.480 --> 1:58:27.960 to travel somewhere between six and ten miles over the 1:58:28.000 --> 1:58:30.880 course of the day, so you you cover some ground. Um. 1:58:31.040 --> 1:58:33.080 But it's a lot of fun. So if if this 1:58:33.240 --> 1:58:35.560 type of stuff we've been talking about is interesting to 1:58:35.720 --> 1:58:38.600 you and you'd maybe uh, you know, you'd like to 1:58:39.080 --> 1:58:42.600 kind of get uh actually do something more directly related 1:58:42.680 --> 1:58:46.400 to it, Um, you can check out that. Uh you 1:58:46.520 --> 1:58:48.920 know what, I don't think I've ever been asked that before. 1:58:51.360 --> 1:58:54.000 It doesn't say no anywhere we might have to think. 1:58:55.840 --> 1:59:03.360 We might have to think, like in the rule, maybe 1:59:03.400 --> 1:59:06.000 what we need you to do is create a challenge 1:59:06.120 --> 1:59:08.760 based around meal and we can get you out there 1:59:09.280 --> 1:59:12.320 and you're you're kind of that that component because I 1:59:12.440 --> 1:59:14.840 love mixing it up with different And the other thing 1:59:14.920 --> 1:59:18.080 about this is like the teams, I give them hints, 1:59:18.440 --> 1:59:21.040 but they don't know what they're getting into until the 1:59:21.120 --> 1:59:24.240 day of. So you that's why it's so important to 1:59:24.320 --> 1:59:27.760 have like a well round team is because you kind 1:59:27.800 --> 1:59:29.360 of you know you're gonna have to make fire somewhere. 1:59:29.360 --> 1:59:31.000 You're probably gonna have to do some first aid stuff. 1:59:31.000 --> 1:59:32.560 You're gonna have a paddle a canoe, you're gonna have 1:59:32.600 --> 1:59:36.800 to do primitive weapons, but you don't know exactly what's happening. 1:59:37.160 --> 1:59:38.680 And uh so you've got to be able to like, 1:59:39.080 --> 1:59:43.080 you know, switch gears. So anyway, Uh that's something else 1:59:43.120 --> 1:59:46.400 that a lot of my energy goes into, um these days, 1:59:46.440 --> 1:59:48.720 So keep an eye out for that. I gotta say 1:59:48.760 --> 1:59:52.000 that's one of the coolest shirts. Yeah right now. Yeah, 1:59:52.400 --> 1:59:54.600 I appreciate that. I saw when you came in, I 1:59:54.680 --> 1:59:59.480 was like, I need good. Good buddy Robert I work 1:59:59.560 --> 2:00:02.040 with helped me to zign. Yeah, it's really cool. Better 2:00:02.080 --> 2:00:05.720 at that stuff to be but n rate cool man. 2:00:05.800 --> 2:00:08.120 Thanks thanks for trying to Rick. I appreciate it, and 2:00:08.400 --> 2:00:11.720 uh yeah, we'll find a reason to do this again 2:00:11.760 --> 2:00:15.040 at some point. But keep it wild pleased as wild 2:00:15.040 --> 2:00:18.240 because that's where the Bears live. Thanks guys,