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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Sportsman's Nation podcast network, brought to

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Speaker 1: you by go Wild. Now. The Go Wild app has

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Speaker 1: You guys can talk about gear you guys can talk

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Speaker 1: about hunting areas, you guys can talk about what's going

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Speaker 1: on in the woods, and it just allows the users

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Speaker 1: is a an opportunity for the users to not only

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Speaker 1: see reviews on products and see what the go wild

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Speaker 1: community is using in the field, what products they're using,

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Speaker 1: If you haven't downloaded it to your phone yet, you

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Speaker 1: store that is currently available. Go Wild It's an awesome app.

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Speaker 1: Check him out. My name is Clay Nukeleman. I'm the

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Speaker 1: host of the Bear Hunting magazine podcast. I'll also be

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Speaker 1: your host into the world of hunting, the icon of

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Speaker 1: the North Americans wilderness Prepare. We'll talk about tactics, gear conservation.

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Speaker 1: We will also bring you into some of the wildest

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Speaker 1: country on the planet, chasing fair In the hunting world,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't have necessarily been familiar with the term bushcraft.

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Speaker 1: It's not something that we use in hunting. But Rick

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Speaker 1: Spicer is big into bushcraft, wilderness survival and he teaches

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Speaker 1: those things. And he's also a mountaineer, hiker and a

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Speaker 1: basically a wilderness adventure and that's a lot of his background.

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Speaker 1: He's also a hunter. He's a primitive hunter, primitive archer,

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Speaker 1: naps his own flint, and he's deeply vested inside the

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Speaker 1: outdoor community. Has traveled all over the world climbing mountains.

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Speaker 1: Me and Rich talk about mountaineering, some near death experiences.

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Speaker 1: We talk about his primitive archery, and the main thing

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Speaker 1: we talked about is how to connect these two different

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Speaker 1: groups who both have vested interests in wild places. And

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Speaker 1: we talk about how people from the extreme outdoors and

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Speaker 1: just generally people who are hikers, canoeers, mountaineers kind of

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Speaker 1: how they can transition and how a lot of them

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Speaker 1: want to but maybe don't know how to transition into

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Speaker 1: hunting and acquiring wild meat from these wild places. Really

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Speaker 1: interesting conversation with a super interesting guy, Rick Spice. You

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Speaker 1: want to check out w Hunting Supply if you have

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Speaker 1: Do you Hunting Supply dot com. As we're coming into

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Speaker 1: the fall, we're gonna be starting to think about fall

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Speaker 1: bear baiting. Northwoods bear products best bear commercial sense on

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Speaker 1: sense for you to not be using Northwoods. As you've

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Speaker 1: heard me say many times, the product that I use

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Speaker 1: year in and year out, it's the Northwoods gold Rush

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Speaker 1: it's gonna draw bears in the war bears you have

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Speaker 1: coming in, the more opportunity that you have to be

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Speaker 1: selective on which bear to take, which is a great proponent,

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Speaker 1: which is a great advantage inside of Hunting Bears over Bait,

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Speaker 1: check out Northwoods Bear Products, and check out our buddies

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Speaker 1: at the Western Bear Foundation. These guys are a nonprofit

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Speaker 1: hunting conservation organization that are representing bear hunters, bears, and

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Speaker 1: wild places out west. All Right, I was trying to

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Speaker 1: think of a new way to do a opening here, Kolbe. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, I think I'm doing it right now.

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Speaker 1: This is a new way to open the podcast, considering

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Speaker 1: how to consider Rick, do you have any ideas for

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Speaker 1: how we could open this podcast to be just not

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Speaker 1: the same because we usually say we're at the Bear

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Speaker 1: Hunting Magazine global headquarters, So we're not gonna say that today, Okay, Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of what I'm used to with you, because

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Speaker 1: you know, let's to uh several of them, and so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to break away once you've got a something

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Speaker 1: that's worked for you has worked for that. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, yeah, sometimes changes worth exploring. I think, so, Um,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Al, it's always interested. How about we

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Speaker 1: start by saying you're hearing the voice of Rick Spicer,

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Speaker 1: the Rick. I've just met you pretty recently. I've known

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Speaker 1: of you for a long time. Yeah, And likewise, I've

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Speaker 1: known of you for actually years, primarily because of your

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Speaker 1: cousin um, but but more more recently because obviously of

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Speaker 1: the podcast and the magazine and all that stuff, and

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Speaker 1: you know, being a local guy. Uh and the you know,

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Speaker 1: as you know, you've kind of been making a name

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Speaker 1: for yourself and kind of getting out there and all that.

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Speaker 1: You know, you can't help, but you know, especially if

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Speaker 1: you're in that Instagram world and all that stuff, you know,

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Speaker 1: you just started to see these things. Well I thought

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Speaker 1: it was cool, coolbe uh. I walked into pack Rat

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Speaker 1: and we'll get into pack Rat. What that is is

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Speaker 1: a store and fatable and I recognized Rick behind his

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Speaker 1: mask a full full like uh buff like you know,

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Speaker 1: like ninja, like all the way up to the eyes

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Speaker 1: almost and then uh. And I had on some mask

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Speaker 1: that was like pulling my ears down where I was like,

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Speaker 1: my kids make fun of it. I have a pretty

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Speaker 1: big head, so when I wear a mask, like a

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Speaker 1: regular mask that was made for somebody else, like it, uh,

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Speaker 1: like my ears must be like way back on my

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Speaker 1: head because it like stretches him down. So anyway, I

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Speaker 1: took my mask off and said, hey, Rick, are you

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Speaker 1: Rick or something like that whatever. I recognized you too, though,

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Speaker 1: Uh so, Yeah, I kinda kind of knew who it

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Speaker 1: wasn't a surprise. Yeah, Well, I think that's a good

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Speaker 1: that's a good place to to start introducing who Rick is.

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Speaker 1: You're you're Yeah, let me have a like a little

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Speaker 1: introduction and then we can go into the different segments

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Speaker 1: of it. Uh. You are you are a mountaineer and

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Speaker 1: outdoorsman hiker. Uh. Your your history is pretty deep into

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Speaker 1: like the the outdoor world and part of that being

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Speaker 1: in the non hunting outdoor world of mountaineering and hiking.

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Speaker 1: And you are you are you are part owner owner

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Speaker 1: of a store in Fatable, Arkansas called Packgraft. Yeah. Also,

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Speaker 1: so this is a short intro. You are a hunter

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Speaker 1: and you are into napping, flint, hair heads, traditional archery.

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Speaker 1: You're into bushcraft, which I want to talk about that

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Speaker 1: because that's a word that that uh I think. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm not that familiar with the term bushcraft, and that's

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Speaker 1: kind of a rhyme like because hunters, if other hunters

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Speaker 1: are like me, that's not a term we use to

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Speaker 1: describe it. Even though we're out in wild places probably

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Speaker 1: doing some of this, but anyway, you're big into that stuff.

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Speaker 1: And uh, I think as time goes by, all these

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Speaker 1: circles start to overlap more and more, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, which I think ultimately is what we're going

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Speaker 1: to arrive at a little later in our conversation today. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, and just sort of looking at um, how

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Speaker 1: all these different things are related, and uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: I guess ultimately we've no matter which one of those

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Speaker 1: circles you find yourself in, there's I like to think

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Speaker 1: there's a lot more that uh overlaps and brings us together,

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Speaker 1: and there is that separates us absolutely. So man, what

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Speaker 1: got you into like extreme mountaineering and stuff? You know,

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Speaker 1: that's a really good question. I've I've been asked that

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Speaker 1: a few times in my life, and it's weird. You know.

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Speaker 1: I grew up very much a traditional console bringing him

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Speaker 1: from me Star Kansas and the Delta, and I grew

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Speaker 1: up hunting fishing over there with my dad. You know,

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Speaker 1: That's what I knew. But probably when I was I

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Speaker 1: don't know, eight or nine years old, I remember my

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Speaker 1: grandpa gave me this like, for lack of a better term,

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Speaker 1: a Rambo knife, and it was way too big a

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Speaker 1: knife for screw off compass. I did not have that,

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Speaker 1: but like it had a sheath with all that stuff

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Speaker 1: in it, Like I choose on the sheath, so it

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Speaker 1: had the fishing and then you know, and all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: And and of course my parents were like, well are

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Speaker 1: you crazy? What are you giving a knife like that

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Speaker 1: to eight year old kid? And uh, because it's right,

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Speaker 1: you know, And and I like to think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: he trusted me well enough not to cut my foot

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Speaker 1: off with it or something like that. But um, I

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Speaker 1: just as far back as I can remember, I just

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Speaker 1: knew I wanted to be in the most wild places

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Speaker 1: I could get to, you know, I just wanted default

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Speaker 1: inside of it. And yeah, and it didn't really even

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Speaker 1: only met her like what I was doing there, like

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Speaker 1: I could I might go to hunt, might go to fish,

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Speaker 1: and might go to climb a mountain. I might go

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Speaker 1: to just hike or just be there. But I just

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Speaker 1: knew that's what I wanted to do. Um. And I

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Speaker 1: really don't even you know, know when that's started. But um,

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Speaker 1: you know, I guess ultimately I'm grateful for that because

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Speaker 1: it's led me to do a lot of different things

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Speaker 1: and many many different places in the U. S. And

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Speaker 1: all over the world really and uh so, I guess

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Speaker 1: it's just was always just that innate curiosity. Did your

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Speaker 1: were there influential figures in your life that that helped

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Speaker 1: you learn to value wild and when I say wild places,

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Speaker 1: because I'm kind of looking back into my life as well.

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Speaker 1: And like my my dad, who I talked about like

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Speaker 1: every other podcast, like he uh he valued like getting

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Speaker 1: as far back as we possibly could, valued wild places.

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Speaker 1: And I think probably over a lifetime he built it

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Speaker 1: into me before I was even conscious. Did you have that?

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Speaker 1: I mean I had a similar experience. So you know,

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Speaker 1: my father was never like a backpacker so to speak.

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Speaker 1: You know, we didn't ever really hike in in camp places,

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Speaker 1: but he was always very influential when it came to

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Speaker 1: the outdoors in general. And that was just something we

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Speaker 1: did in our family, it was. And my grandfather wasn't

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Speaker 1: a hunter, but he was like a crazy fisherman, like

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Speaker 1: that was like all he all he thought about was,

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Speaker 1: you know, he was a carpenter and a fisherman and

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Speaker 1: so um those were the things. And did he finish

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Speaker 1: you on the Mississippi River over there a little bit

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Speaker 1: but mostly it was it was those river shoots, you know,

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Speaker 1: lakes and stuff like that. That's what I grew up

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Speaker 1: fishing in when from a very young age, places like that.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, So what have you give me an

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Speaker 1: overview of some of your mountaineering, Like, I know you've

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Speaker 1: been down to South America? Where have you been? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've been lucky to go to quite a few places.

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Speaker 1: So I've done, oh, probably half a dozen trips or

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Speaker 1: so to South America. You know, I've done the biggest

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Speaker 1: mountains I've ever climbed in my life, or Peru um

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Speaker 1: and there that's the Andes Mountain Range, and there's mountains

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Speaker 1: over twenty thousand feet down there, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: I've been fortunate. We've got to stop here. Um, how

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Speaker 1: how tall is uh uh twenty nine thousand ft tall? Yeah, so,

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Speaker 1: and that's you know, of course in the himalay Is

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Speaker 1: in Asia and those those are the tallest mountain range,

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Speaker 1: our tallest mountains, the mountains way up to So in

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Speaker 1: Concagua is the tallest mountain in South America and it's

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Speaker 1: on the border of Argentina and Chile. And um, I've

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Speaker 1: seen it. I haven't climbed it, but um driven by

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Speaker 1: it and UM, but you know, I have done a

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Speaker 1: lot of climbing, rock climbing, um, from a young age.

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Speaker 1: I started rock climbing when I was probably fourteen years old.

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Speaker 1: I was in an explorer post as a boy, and

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Speaker 1: uh an explorer. Yeah, so that's like a branch of scouting,

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Speaker 1: so as as you developed and scouting and I don't

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Speaker 1: even honestly know if it's a thing anymore, but um,

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Speaker 1: it was kind of a subsidiary, so to speak, of scouting.

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Speaker 1: And there was, um, of course, a couple of ads that, um,

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Speaker 1: we're involved in volunteers and things, and um, there's some

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Speaker 1: kids that I went to school with and so we

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Speaker 1: just started camping and repelling and trying to find caves

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Speaker 1: to go into. And we were lucky to have a

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Speaker 1: couple of folks that adults that looked after us, you know,

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Speaker 1: and tried to keep us from getting hurt, that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. And that's where I found her. I'll climbing,

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Speaker 1: and from there it just went a hundred different directions. Really.

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Speaker 1: It was like, oh, man, I want to do this,

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Speaker 1: I want to do that. I kind of wanted to

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Speaker 1: try everything, but I didn't. I didn't mean to derail you.

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Speaker 1: We were in South America twenty thousand foot mountains. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I've been there a couple of times. Um, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've been to Columbia, I've been to Argentina, been to Chile.

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Speaker 1: So I've spent quite a lot of time. I love

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Speaker 1: South America and what so, Okay, on one of those

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Speaker 1: trips you go down there, what are your objectives? Like,

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Speaker 1: You're not like going on like a twenty mile loop trail,

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Speaker 1: like taking photos like a are are you trying to go?

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Speaker 1: Actually too? And and that And I actually do that

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Speaker 1: type of thing with my wife. You know, my wife

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Speaker 1: is not a climber. She's you know, she she doesn't hunt.

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Speaker 1: She she likes fishing a little bit, but mainly she

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Speaker 1: just likes to be in beautiful places outdoors. And uh,

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Speaker 1: that's an experience that we love to share together. So

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Speaker 1: about half of the stuff that I've done, especially is

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Speaker 1: you know, i've gotten older and we've been together. Um,

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Speaker 1: will be trips that are just basically hiking trips or

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Speaker 1: backpacking trips, so we're living out of a backpack from

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Speaker 1: multiple days and we're just going to enjoy nature and

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Speaker 1: take photographs and that sort of thing. But the other

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Speaker 1: half the time, um, I uh, you know, it's what

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Speaker 1: I like to call type too fun. Uh we're going

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Speaker 1: or I'm going or and whoever I'm going with, or

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Speaker 1: we're going to be challenged, uh to try to you know,

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Speaker 1: attempt something that is it's always a fine line of

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Speaker 1: doing something that's dangerous enough to be sort of interesting

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Speaker 1: and and learn how to manage that risk, but not

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Speaker 1: so dangerous that you know, you're like, man, I may

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Speaker 1: not come home if I if I do that, right?

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Speaker 1: So would that be like uh like a like a

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Speaker 1: particular mountain, like trying to some of that mountain you

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Speaker 1: would go down to. So you've been down there six

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Speaker 1: times each time you were like, we are going to

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Speaker 1: climb to the top of this mountain, to the top

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Speaker 1: of this mount I would It's akin to you know,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna go on a big Western whatever elkhon or

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Speaker 1: what you know. You you don't just go out there blind, right,

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Speaker 1: you do research ahead of time. Well, mountaineering is no different.

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Speaker 1: You know. You you do your research, you talk to people,

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Speaker 1: you may get a guide book or something like that.

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Speaker 1: You learn what equipment you need and client roots on on.

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Speaker 1: Routes have rating systems, and so you know, you find

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Speaker 1: a route that's rated that you feel like it's appropriate

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Speaker 1: for your level of skill, and then at that point

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Speaker 1: you say, okay, this is our objective and you go

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Speaker 1: there either most of the time as a team. And

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Speaker 1: mean a lot of these types of sports it's more

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Speaker 1: even it's a lot more dangerous to do it alone,

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Speaker 1: even though some people do it um but typically you know,

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Speaker 1: you're you're tied into a rope with somebody else, and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're trying to make your way up, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes you get to the top, and sometimes you assess

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Speaker 1: the situation and so you know what, it's not worth it.

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Speaker 1: We gotta turn around and get down, either because of

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Speaker 1: weather or objective hazards. I mean, I've seen rockfall and

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Speaker 1: avalanches and all kinds of things. You know that that

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Speaker 1: world is like, and it's super different than the hunt.

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Speaker 1: You know, like people might like somebody that didn't know

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Speaker 1: the outdoors might thing, Yeah, rock climbing and hunting, well,

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Speaker 1: they're just the adventure aspects. Man, I get zero thrill

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Speaker 1: out of being in super dangerous like physical situations with

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Speaker 1: rock and earth. I don't mind that much at all

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Speaker 1: dangerous situation with wild animals. Yeah, yeah, it's to me,

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Speaker 1: it's yeah, totally different. Yeah, And I mean and I'm

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Speaker 1: not a rock climber and I'm not an adventure mountaineer

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Speaker 1: at all. I've never really done it. But the times

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Speaker 1: that I have experienced what might just be the touch

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Speaker 1: of that, I've been like, get me off of here.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of it too, comes down to

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Speaker 1: what your experience level is though, right, because you I

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Speaker 1: obviously have experience with wild animals, Like you know how

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Speaker 1: to handle yourself when you're around bears, and you know

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Speaker 1: around mountain lines and things like that. But if you haven't,

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Speaker 1: if you don't have that background of like traveling through

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Speaker 1: complicated terrain in the mountains or canes or stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: you know, you just you don't know what you don't know, right,

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Speaker 1: And so learning to manage objective hazards, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: just because you know how to handle one situation doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean you're prepared to handle another, right, and so, um,

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Speaker 1: it just comes down to how you spend your time

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Speaker 1: and experience level, right, and where you're you've dedicated yourself

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Speaker 1: exactly craft what you love to do, you know, and

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Speaker 1: it's not none of it's right or wrong. It's just

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Speaker 1: how do you love to spend your time? And of

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Speaker 1: course that's what you're gonna focus on. Okay, tell me

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Speaker 1: give me this answer. How how how good are you?

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Speaker 1: Just tell me the truth? Rick, No, like just in

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Speaker 1: like mountaineering, like going down and not good, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it's in the competition, know it's not, but like

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Speaker 1: like how like what level? Like you know, somebody could

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Speaker 1: describe probably there their competency and hunting if they were

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Speaker 1: being realistic and honest, I could say, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: a fairly experienced hunter in this style of stuff, like

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Speaker 1: like what's your I mean I would call I would

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Speaker 1: I would say that my experience level is quite high,

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Speaker 1: but my technical proficiency, um, does not match my level

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Speaker 1: of experience. In other words, um, I've been on I mean, god,

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Speaker 1: I've probably climbed a hundred mountains in the twenties some years.

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Speaker 1: I've been doing it, um, but I have I'm also

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Speaker 1: a careful guy, and I look very carefully at what

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Speaker 1: the risks are, and so I tend to you know,

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Speaker 1: I like to be challenged physically, but when it comes

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Speaker 1: to like managing the risk on the route or whatever

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Speaker 1: the climb is. I tend to pick things that I

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Speaker 1: feel like I can pretty well stink in control of.

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Speaker 1: And uh so that what that has done is it's

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Speaker 1: It's given me a lot of experience. But I've avoided

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Speaker 1: a lot of things that were much more technical because

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Speaker 1: I was just like, you know what, I can have

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Speaker 1: just as good a time climbing this route that I

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Speaker 1: feel like as much safer and I can manage, then

340
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Speaker 1: if I go do this harder one, but there's a

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Speaker 1: much higher element of risk involved. Um so um, you know,

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Speaker 1: and and I was so for a long time too.

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Speaker 1: I was a rock climbing instructor. I had a certification

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Speaker 1: with the American Mountain Got Association what's called a sp I.

345
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Speaker 1: So I taught rock climbing through that. And um, I

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Speaker 1: didn't take people on big mountaineering expeditions. It was more

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Speaker 1: like local old rock climbing, right, teaching them how to

348
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Speaker 1: go to a cliff and safely, you know, set the

349
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Speaker 1: roots up and do all that. But I've I've taught

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Speaker 1: hundreds of people over the years, you know, how to

351
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Speaker 1: rock climb, and so, um, I guess that one of

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Speaker 1: the other things I've always enjoyed about it is. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've I've taught and brought a lot of

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Speaker 1: friends and acquaintances along on trips like that, and I

355
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Speaker 1: get a great deal of joy um out of you know,

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Speaker 1: introducing people to these types of things and teaching them

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Speaker 1: how to look after themselves. Uh. For me, that's always

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Speaker 1: been Uh, I don't know, I get a sense of

359
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Speaker 1: accomplishment out of that because I love seeing somebody afterwards

360
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Speaker 1: it's like, oh man, that was that was amazing, Like, uh,

361
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Speaker 1: you know, I didn't think I could do that. I

362
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Speaker 1: didn't think I'd ever do something like that. Um. And

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Speaker 1: it it's always uh, you know, felt really good to

364
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Speaker 1: share that type of experience with people. Have you ever

365
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Speaker 1: almost died on the side of the mountain? Yes, what

366
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Speaker 1: give us an example of a of a so that

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Speaker 1: the one that sticks out above all the other ones,

368
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Speaker 1: you know, just to cut to the chase. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: in in Peru it was the first time I went.

370
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Speaker 1: I guess it was two thousand one maybe something like that,

371
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Speaker 1: and I was with one of my good climbing buddies

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Speaker 1: guy that I've done you know, a large percentage of

373
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Speaker 1: the climbs that I've done with and we were ascending

374
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Speaker 1: a mountain. It was a big peak in the the

375
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Speaker 1: specific area we were in scared the Courtiera Blanca just

376
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Speaker 1: north the waterraz Peru Um. And we were ascending a

377
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Speaker 1: mountain and that there wasn't a lot of information about it,

378
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Speaker 1: and so we didn't have really good up to date.

379
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Speaker 1: We were going off a route description that was like

380
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Speaker 1: years old. Right, Well, what has happened in that mountain range,

381
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Speaker 1: like many mountain ranges around the world, as these glaciers

382
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Speaker 1: are receding um because the climate change and these types

383
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Speaker 1: of things, right, you know, And so what happens is

384
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Speaker 1: is as the glacier receeds, there's all this exposed rock

385
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Speaker 1: that for thousands of years had snow on top of it.

386
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Speaker 1: That that exposed rock is now sliding off the side

387
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 1: of the mountain. The snow is not there to hold

388
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,679
Speaker 1: it in place anymore. And so we were unaware of

389
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Speaker 1: how much of this exposed rock was above us. So

390
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 1: we're ascending the side of this mountain trying to get

391
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Speaker 1: on the glacier above us, which is what we were

392
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,399
Speaker 1: going to try to do is climb the snow to

393
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Speaker 1: get to the summit. And as we were going up

394
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Speaker 1: this kind of really tight trough. We had made it

395
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Speaker 1: up I don't know, several hundred feet, maybe a close

396
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 1: to a thousand feet or so. Um, we heard some

397
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 1: rock above us break loose, and uh, the next like

398
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 1: several seconds was terrifying. It was like like rocks the

399
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,400
Speaker 1: size of beer kegs coming down all around us. I mean,

400
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 1: and it was you know, literally grace of God kind

401
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 1: of thing that Um that I'm still here today, that

402
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 1: kind of tell the story about it. So you know,

403
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,640
Speaker 1: we had big, big backpacks on and it was one

404
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,880
Speaker 1: of those things we're adrenaline kicked in and like we

405
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 1: literally ran down the side of that mountain. I don't

406
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:54,959
Speaker 1: know how we did it. And so where did you go?

407
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 1: How did you? I mean so that if rocks are

408
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 1: coming from above, you like running downhill? Yeah, So what

409
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 1: we did? You know, it was like you got to

410
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,920
Speaker 1: come up with a plan and come up with it fast, right.

411
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Speaker 1: So what we did was, Um, there wasn't a lot

412
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Speaker 1: of places to take cover where we were, and we

413
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 1: knew we couldn't stay in there, and so um, we

414
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Speaker 1: got behind the biggest boulder we could find too. You know,

415
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 1: when there's like debris and stuff kind of going over

416
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: our heads from this rock fall, and so just real quick,

417
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, um, you know, we gotta get down.

418
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: We cannot stay here. What we're gonna do is we're

419
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,479
Speaker 1: gonna leap frog this thing. So I'm gonna go first,

420
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna go as far as I can until

421
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 1: I get to the next boulder I can hide behind.

422
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 1: When I get there, you're gonna follow me. And literally

423
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 1: we leap frog until we got down. Meanwhile, the weather

424
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 1: moves in and we get in a white out and

425
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 1: it starts to snow while all this stuff's going down.

426
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 1: How long did this take? I'm envisioned this being like

427
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 1: a ten second army The main deal was about that.

428
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: It was probably ten seconds or so. But there was

429
00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 1: a lot of debris and in smaller rocks that continue

430
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 1: in you to fall. Yeah, exactly. It's like this is

431
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,360
Speaker 1: a shooting gallery and you got rocks the size of baseballs.

432
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 1: You know, they're still falling down this trough whizzing by

433
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: your head. Only take one of those, you know. And

434
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 1: of course we had helmets on and stuff, but I

435
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: don't care what kind of Oh yeah, I mean, you

436
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: don't you gotta have a helmet on doing that type

437
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 1: of stuff, and um so, but as the weather moved in, um,

438
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: we we finally got to a place where we felt

439
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 1: like we were safe with the rocks weren't gonna, you know,

440
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: get us anymore. And we crawled under this very large boulder,

441
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 1: probably size of a house and got underneath that thing.

442
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: And it had a kind of an alcove underneath it,

443
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: and it was quite wide, but it was only just

444
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,879
Speaker 1: barely big enough where like we couldn't fully sit up

445
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 1: underneath it, right, so you can think of yourself like

446
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 1: kind of leaning with your on your elbow on the ground.

447
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: We spent three and a half days under that rock. Uh. Yeah,

448
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 1: it started snowing and kept on snowing and kept on snowing.

449
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 1: We couldn't see anything because it was it out and

450
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 1: one guy, Yeah, and one time of year, this was June.

451
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: So were you concerned about not ever getting to be

452
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: able to I mean, so the good thing is is

453
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 1: it happened like day two of the trip, and we

454
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,959
Speaker 1: were we had provisions for a week, so we had food.

455
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 1: You know, we were okay other than uh, you know,

456
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 1: basically just being somewhat Oh at that point, it was

457
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 1: probably sixteen thousand, Yeah, where we were at. Yeah, it

458
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: was pretty high. Wow, what does that do to you

459
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: on inside? Were you scared the moment in the moment,

460
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: but like after you were no, you know at that point,

461
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: because after everything calmed down, I mean even the next day,

462
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: we were still considering, like how can we get back

463
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: up on the mountain. You know, we were obviously we're like, well,

464
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: we're not going that way, right and so um part

465
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: of the reasons, I mean, it's possible could have gotten

466
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: down a little bit early, but you know, we probably

467
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: had a close to a foot of snowfall um by

468
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: the time everything was said and done, and between the conditions,

469
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: not being able to see the snowfall and everything, we

470
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,479
Speaker 1: were like, it's not worth trying to find another safe

471
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: way up this mountain. We just don't feel like it's

472
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: you know, there's plenty of mountains down here. I think

473
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: we're done with this one. And at that point we

474
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: hicked out, and of course they weren't expecting us until later,

475
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: so we didn't have a ride. So we ended up

476
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: having to like hitshike to get a ride town. Yeah,

477
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: where those outfitted deals in the sense that like someone

478
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: drives you out there. Yeah, and you'll you'll appreciate this. Um,

479
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,479
Speaker 1: there's so many folks do us included down there's they

480
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: hire these guys called eddie Ros and they're their mule drivers.

481
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: So yeah, so what you do on the way up

482
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: to your base camp is a mule carries your big pack, yes,

483
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: up in the right. So, um, you hired a guy

484
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: and he's usually got two mules, one for one mule,

485
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 1: wonder one ratio, one meal for each climber, and um,

486
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 1: your big pack goes in the back of the mule

487
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: with maybe some extra food or whatever else you want

488
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: to carry, and you just hike up with daypack on.

489
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: And that's nice because it allows you to acclimate and

490
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,199
Speaker 1: kind of prepare, but save your legs because you're not

491
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 1: carrying sixty pound backpack. You know, that is exactly the

492
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: strategy that I used with five eles. They carry all

493
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 1: the year. So when I get to where I want

494
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 1: to go, I'm feeling good. Um, so so like how

495
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: much so if you were at sixteen thousand feet, how

496
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: much elevation had you gained? So the town has been

497
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: a while, honestly since and I don't recall the exact

498
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: elevation of water odds, But it's on up there. I

499
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: want to say it's at least twelve thousand feet, maybe

500
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: a little bit higher, you know, but you would drive

501
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: up some of that. Okay, yeah, yeah, but we just

502
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,479
Speaker 1: we just got back from Colorado and we did you know,

503
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: I mean a minor minor high and something like that.

504
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 1: But we started at like ten thousand feet and went

505
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: to almost thirteen thousand in about a four mile stretch. Absolutely,

506
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty intense, I mean, especially with that elevation. Yeah,

507
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: and you're coming from Arkansas, right, I mean, we're there.

508
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 1: For One thing that people don't realize that haven't spent

509
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: a lot of time at altitude and things like that,

510
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 1: is I mean, yeah, it helps to have some fitness,

511
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: but the fact of the matter is, you know, there's

512
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: acclamation that has to happen, and the only thing that

513
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 1: will allow that to happen is time. Your body has

514
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 1: to make more red blood cells so you can absorb

515
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: that oxygen or the lack of option oxygen when you're

516
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: up there, and I don't care what kind of shape

517
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: you're in, you can still get altitude sickness, you know,

518
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: a m S or hape or something like that from

519
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: being in that situation where you go from a low

520
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: elevation place like that, how many days does it take

521
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: to I mean, I realized it would be great if

522
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: you were there for like a month, but I mean

523
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: like two days, you know, more of the better. But yeah,

524
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: I mean obviously, and it depends on how high you're

525
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: going um and everyone to some degree reacts slightly differently.

526
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: But for the average person, I would say a few

527
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: days UM is ideal. You know, but there's so many

528
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: you know, nowadays, people's time is often so limited and

529
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, well, I'd love to do that, but

530
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: I don't have time. I want to do this trip

531
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: whatever it is, whether it's a hunting trip, climbate trip,

532
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: or whatever. And so you know, that's why you hear

533
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: about these things is because it's a lack of time.

534
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: People go, they charge up into the mountains and then

535
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: they end up getting a cute mountain sickness or something

536
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: like that. You know, they got a headache, and the

537
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: only thing you can do when that happens is go down.

538
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, I can. You can. There's no drug

539
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: you can. I mean, you can medicate ahead of time,

540
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: although I'm not really a fan of that type of thing,

541
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: that the best thing to do is give yourself time.

542
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: If it's a mild case, sometimes you can stay put,

543
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: drink a lot of water, keep yourself hydrated, and you

544
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: can sort of get over it. Does that usually happen

545
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: like above, Like, yeah, that's a pretty good. I've I've

546
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: hunted quite a bit in Montana, for word a seven

547
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: thousand feet and people were like, oh man, you're gonna

548
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: have to worry about altitude. And it never has affected

549
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: me that much. But in Colorado last week, we we

550
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: the town we stayed in was over ten thousands exactly,

551
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: and uh yeah, it wouldn't have crushed me. And I

552
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: try not to take too much personal note of physical ailments.

553
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:24,959
Speaker 1: I'm trying not to give it too much attention. So

554
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: if I hadn't, I probably would just have been like, man,

555
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: I don't feel great, like but I recognize what was

556
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: happening and I and I actually didn't feel good for

557
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: about a day. Yeah, and then but then the next

558
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: day that's pretty much fine. And it's just because you

559
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: gave yourself that night. You know that the old adage

560
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: with climbers, but this can apply to anyone traveling into

561
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: that terrain is you climb high and you sleep low,

562
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: and so that's what you want to do. Um And

563
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: so even if you're an elk hunter, you know, if

564
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: you're going up into the mountains, if you want to

565
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: scout or hunt or whatever, you're gonna go check out

566
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: ridges to glass, whatever it may be. If you can

567
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: go back down the mountain and sleep at a lower elevation,

568
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: and that's going to do a better job of acclimating

569
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: you and you're gonna feel better. Of course, you've got

570
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: to travel more, and so you gotta put the work

571
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: into it. But if you have a mule, that's right,

572
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: he doesn't work. Yeah, I've had altitude sickness. It's terrible. Yeah,

573
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: you got altitude sickness moving to northwest Arkansas from I

574
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: still can't I still can't breathe. No, I went from

575
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: Texas to Colorado and it killed me. Yeah. I didn't

576
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: miss a morning or evening hunt, but I felt terrible

577
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: and just slept every moment that I could pretty much

578
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: guarantee you had cupte mountain sickness. And then I'm chugging

579
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: pepto and drinking as much water as I could, and

580
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: I didn't eat for three or four days. It's just

581
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: I didn't want to. Um, this is not a topic

582
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: switch slightly different area of mountaineering. Uh. My daughter met

583
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: Alex okay the other day she uh, Mr Fred it

584
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: was a dam deal, but she met Alex Handlda. What

585
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: do you think of that guy? I think a lot

586
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: of them. You know, he doesn't uh, he's very aware

587
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: that what he's doing is about a dangerous as you could.

588
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: You know, for someone who didn't know Alex Handld, tell

589
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: him who is. Yeah. So Alex Handld is a sponsored

590
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: North Face athlete and he's widely considered to be the

591
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: best free soloist rock climber that's ever lived. And what

592
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: that means is is he climbs very large rock vertical

593
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: faces without any type of equipment or protection to keep

594
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: himself from falling. So he doesn't use ropes or anything

595
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: like that. So he's uh, you know, there's many films

596
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: out there about him. You can look climb He's you know,

597
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: he's the first big one he did that got him famous.

598
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: Was half done in Yosemite, but he's done El Capitan,

599
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: He's done all over the world. He's done. He's just

600
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: climbing a rock with Yeah, I mean athletically, there's almost

601
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,239
Speaker 1: no comparison in terms of what he has accomplished. You know.

602
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: But but you know if you saw okay here when

603
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: when my daughter showed she had a picture, he was

604
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: at the capital actually in d C. And uh, he's

605
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: like an unimpressive guy. Yeah, he's like five ten. Maybe

606
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,719
Speaker 1: he's a linking guy. I mean very fit obviously, but

607
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: like he's you know, got on a T shirt and

608
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: some shorts walking around. You couldn't pick him out of

609
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: a crowd. He's not you know, he's just as a

610
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: world class So, um, it's I would say the number

611
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: one thing is mentally he is like he his mind

612
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: is um, yeah, he's very different. Um there's actually they

613
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: do some some kind of medical research and one on

614
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: him and that and he's he doesn't still yeah, he

615
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: he doesn't respond to stress and he doesn't get like

616
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: endorphin released like the rest of us do when he

617
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: gets in normal situation aations that would normally cause stress.

618
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: So he can keep himself much under much more under

619
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: control than the average person when he's in like really

620
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: dangerous situations. So does that mean that it's really like

621
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 1: on the mountain a lot of what you would be

622
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: doing is really not a physical challenge, like your body

623
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: could do it, but your mind. I mean there's some

624
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: of that, but the stuff he's doing, no, it's like

625
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,919
Speaker 1: only I mean, I've been rock climbing over twenty years.

626
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 1: I couldn't hope to do to even even with ropes,

627
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: even on my best day, I couldn't climb what he's

628
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: climbing with all the equipment in the world, let alone

629
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 1: free solo it without a rope or anything like that.

630
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 1: I mean, he's astonishing. I mean his finger holds are crazy. Yeah,

631
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 1: I mean, what's It's unreal. But at the same time,

632
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: he doesn't condone what he does. He doesn't recommend that.

633
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: He's very aware that it is dangerous and um, you know,

634
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 1: it's a choice that he's made for himself. It's how

635
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: he's decided to live his life. And you know, uh,

636
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: I have a lot of respect for someone that knows

637
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: themselves well enough to say, you know what, this is

638
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: who I am and I'm willing to die for it.

639
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: And as long as he's not prescribing other people to,

640
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: you know, take that up than that he has every

641
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: right to in my opinion. So we've watched many of

642
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: those films with him, and it seems it's it's pretty incredible.

643
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: It's really incredible. M hm. Well, okay, you've you told us,

644
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: you told us your scary story. That was good. Um,

645
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 1: let's talk about let's talk about what is bushcraft. Yeah.

646
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 1: So I would describe bushcraft and it's in its most

647
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: basic form as the knowledge of nature and how to

648
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: interact with it on a personal level. That can mean

649
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: a lot of different things, though some people look at

650
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: it in terms of survival skills. That's what I was

651
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 1: going to say. I would have thought most people think about,

652
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: you know, things like that. Um. Other people have a

653
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 1: spin on it a little bit different. Um, maybe like

654
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: ancestral knowledge, you know, so early people or first people's

655
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: type knowledge. So some people, um focus on a specific

656
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: skill set. Maybe that was more common to a particular

657
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 1: Native American group of people or something like that. But

658
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 1: these days, you know, most people I think just have

659
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: a general interest in like, you know, how to kind

660
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: of no more and need less. I guess you could

661
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: think of it now that's a that's a key part

662
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: of it though, because I'm trying to find the difference

663
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: in like what somebody would call bushcraft and what we

664
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: would call going on a five day backpacking trips, like

665
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: because you're talking about using the less you're talking about

666
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: bushcraft would be like starting to fire without any kind

667
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: of yes, an ignition stores well and it gets That's

668
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: where he gets tricky, right, because some people would be

669
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,439
Speaker 1: would consider carrying like a magnesium fire steel and using

670
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: the spini or knife, like, that's still bushcraft because what

671
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 1: you did was you went to an eastern red cedar tree,

672
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: you scraped off a bunch of bark, and you created

673
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 1: tender from that. So there's still an element of knowledge

674
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: and nature and how to harness that and harvest it

675
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: in those types of things. But on it's it's more

676
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: kind of pure level. I guess you could say, um,

677
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: you're gonna go out and you're gonna harvest um a

678
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: you know, a mullen stock, and then you're gonna go

679
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: get a piece of cotton wood for a hearth board

680
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: and you're gonna create a hand drill a type of

681
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: tree plant. Yeah, yeah, mullin is a it's a it's

682
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: a plant. It has a large basil rosette at the bottom.

683
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: It's a it's a medicinal plant. As well. It's there's

684
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: a handful more than a handful, but there's a lot

685
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 1: of different plants that can provide you with multiple types

686
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 1: of resources. So Mullen like the lead. Is it real

687
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: soft and fuzzy. A lot of people think it's lambs here,

688
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 1: but it actually gets much bigger. Arkansas grows all over

689
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: the place here in artists. So we went out, walked around.

690
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,959
Speaker 1: We probably find some um, but the leaves get quite

691
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 1: large and they're growing around basil rosette um and that

692
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: if you dry, you can make tea with it. It's

693
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: good for respiratory omets and things like that. UM. It

694
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: actually makes great toilet paper if you need it for

695
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: that use. In fact, it's got a nickname Cowboy toilet

696
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 1: paper because it's so it's real soft um. But the

697
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 1: stock that it puts up UM can get quite high

698
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: and has a cone of yellow flowers at the top

699
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: of it. And when it dries it becomes very woody.

700
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: You know, it's soften and it bends too easy when

701
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 1: it's green and it's got too much moisture in it.

702
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: But as it drives, you can cut that down UM.

703
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: And that's your hand drill or your spindle um that

704
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: you would use, and then you need a heart board,

705
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: so you could find uh something like locally. Umbrella magnolia

706
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: would be a good source of cotton wood is one

707
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: of my favorite ones, but there's many things you could

708
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: use and um, So you need uh particular types of

709
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: materials that you know. It's less important that you know

710
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: what species you're looking for and more important that you

711
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: understand the characteristics that are needed to make it work properly.

712
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 1: So I know you know from doing from having a

713
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: lot of experience doing that type of thing. I need

714
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,919
Speaker 1: woods that are low density because if it's too hard,

715
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: it's going to require too much pressure and speed in

716
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: order to bring the temperature up where I need it

717
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: to get it to right. So that's one thing. Obviously,

718
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 1: you need very low moisture content. If there's a lot

719
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: of moisture in it, you can it's gonna be fighting

720
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 1: you the whole time. And you need low resin content

721
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 1: because if there's a lot of reson in it when

722
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: you're starting to do it, it's gonna kind of gum

723
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: it up a little bit. So you don't want to

724
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: use the real sappy woods for that type of thing.

725
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: So you know, lots of different things can work, but

726
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 1: it's just having that knowledge and understanding of you know

727
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 1: what I need to get it done. So that would

728
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: be one example of bushcraft that I think we'll paying

729
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: a picture for. You know what we're talking about? What

730
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: else like like um like navigation absolute out technology? Yeah,

731
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,399
Speaker 1: I mean it's going to again that runs the game

732
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: at you know nowadays, you know most of us are

733
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 1: walking around with some kind of phone in our pocket

734
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: and we got on X on there, right, And that's

735
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: a great tool. I use it myself, I recommend it. Well,

736
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 1: if you want to take your pack rap bushcraft on Instagram,

737
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: you can't have on situation I'm want to use or

738
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: whatever I can. And and it again it comes down

739
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 1: to like what are you doing out there? Like? Can

740
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: I navigate by the stars? Yeah? I know I can

741
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: do some of it, um, but what am I out

742
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: here to do? Am I out here to spend my

743
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 1: time learning navigation? Or am I out here trying to

744
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: get after an animal? Right? Well, I want to spend

745
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 1: my trime trying to track this animal down and harvest it.

746
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 1: So yeah, I could do you know, navigation by hand,

747
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: but I would rather spend my time in other ways.

748
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 1: And so a good example, you know, kind of happy

749
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: medium and one of the things that pack raft that

750
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: I teach classes on his old school navigation skills with

751
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 1: a regular compass and a topographical map, and that that

752
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: to me has a very appropriate place, um in a

753
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: sportsman's tool kit, because compass and a map don't require

754
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 1: any power. You know, iPhone runs out of batteries unless

755
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: you got a battery backup or something like that. At

756
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: that point, it's right, so you know, knowing how to

757
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 1: use terrain association, read a topographical map, and orient that

758
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 1: map with a compass so that you can keep yourself

759
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 1: you know where you need to be. Um, those are

760
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:31,240
Speaker 1: good examples of what I would definitely classify as bushcraft skills.

761
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:32,919
Speaker 1: How long would it take you to start a fire

762
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: if we walked outside? You know, I don't know what's

763
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: out there. I haven't looked around yet. I mean, if

764
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: I got real lucky, I might be able to do

765
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 1: it in a half hour. Yeah, I mean, but that

766
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,720
Speaker 1: that would require something. Could you start a fire? Okay?

767
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 1: If I if I if you were with me ten

768
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: times and you had a thirty minute window each of

769
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: those ten times in different environments here in Arkansas? How

770
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: many times would you be able to start a fire

771
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: in thirty minute? In thirty minutes, I mean, is it

772
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: like a for sure deal? I mean it's like no,

773
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 1: there's so many variables. Okay, so timey year? What has

774
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: the real dry? I mean I could probably start a

775
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: fire out there by Clark Rocks and that was my

776
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: next thing. What has the weather been like? I mean, um,

777
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: has it rained? So there there's nothing that is I

778
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: guess what I'm getting at is like how did native

779
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: people's or backwoodsman that had none of our modern technology?

780
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: I mean, did they just go long periods of time

781
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: without fire because they couldn't start a fight? Is there?

782
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: Or is there bushcraft? Way? That's just like almost d

783
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 1: um there is. But again, even within those primitive skills

784
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: and bushcraft and things like that, they still had tool kits. Right,

785
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:45,800
Speaker 1: So if I'm gonna spend the time to craft a

786
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 1: fire kit, and like I mean right now, if you want,

787
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: I got one of my truck and it's a good kit.

788
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: I know, like if if I were to use that,

789
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: I have a fire in ten minutes. He carols around

790
00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: in case he wants to start right. Um, but Um,

791
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: if I have to go out into the woods, there's

792
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: just so many variables when it comes to harvesting. And

793
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: you maybe so with your fire kit though you could

794
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: you could start a fire and predictably, yes, so you

795
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 1: could if we were just out here and it was

796
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 1: and we were trying to get from here to Oklahoma.

797
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: And but the differences is that that is a tool

798
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: kit that I crafted my hand from my knowledge of

799
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 1: the environment and how to use it, right, whereas instead

800
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: of you know, carrying a big ladder in my pocket.

801
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: And again I'm not here to knock anyone that does that.

802
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: In fact, I would encourage you to do that, because

803
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: it's smart. You're prepared, right, Um. But you know the

804
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: other the other way to look at it and the

805
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: way that I think about it, because I love sharing

806
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,839
Speaker 1: these skills and teaching these skills, Um, but I do

807
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: it less because I think that you're gonna need as

808
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 1: a as a survival skill one day. Like I hope

809
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 1: that never happens to anybody. I hope no one's ever

810
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: on a hunting trip and it goes ouphon. Yeah. Yeah.

811
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: But what I can guarantee is that if I, if

812
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 1: we I have a class and you come and you

813
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 1: learn how to do a bow drill or hand drill fire.

814
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: The first time you're on your own and you make

815
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: a campfire with that method, you will never enjoy a

816
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: camp fire as much as that one you've made that way,

817
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: because it enriched your experience and you are more connected

818
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: to the land around you and your understanding of how

819
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: to look after yourself. And that is why I like

820
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 1: to do it. And that for me, is why I

821
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: have gone down this path of studying these skills. Is

822
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 1: because uh, I just enjoy my time out there that

823
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 1: much more. Yeah, but I really like that, and I think,

824
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of ironic in a way, like

825
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: if you were to you know, we have this thing

826
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: and that's I have this thing to me where I

827
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: I love hunting because it connects me to something like

828
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: this primitive human experience in a modern time. If you

829
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: were to, if we could go back and talk to

830
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 1: some primitive human hunters at some point and say, hey,

831
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 1: there's gonna be some hunters in the future that won't

832
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 1: know how to start fires the way you do. I mean,

833
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 1: like they would probably be surprised at that I do

834
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: not know how to start a fire. I mean I

835
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: might bumble around. I mean, I know the concept of

836
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: starting to fire without a big lighter, but in general,

837
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff that you're talking about a

838
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: lot of hunters wouldn't be familiar with. And and obviously

839
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: it's a it's a utilitarian issue. It's like we're focusing

840
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:40,479
Speaker 1: on different aspects of our mission. Like, but I think

841
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,359
Speaker 1: what you're saying is a really valid point that just

842
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: the the knowledge of these things, uh, like how to

843
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: start a fire adds value and adds a depth to

844
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: the experience and fire. You know, I've got a book

845
00:45:55,239 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: right up there called Catching Fire. Fascinating book some and

846
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: it's uh and the whole premise of it is is

847
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 1: that fire is actually what um helped humans, you know,

848
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 1: become what we are because of cooked food. I don't

849
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: think there's any doubt about it. Yeah, and and it

850
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: it's pretty fascinating. So like our connection to fire. And

851
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 1: then the fact that Clay Nukem really doesn't know how

852
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 1: or isn't it prepared to start a fire without technology,

853
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: it's kind of hypocritical almost, you know. Again, it's it

854
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: just comes down to what you got time for, right,

855
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 1: I mean, in the first world, problem. I read somewhere

856
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 1: where U and one of the books was reading. Heck,

857
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: it was in that book Catching Fire. Uh. They were

858
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: talking about how these African tribes would carry around uh

859
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: basically fire embers for days. When they moved, they would

860
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 1: like carry a stick, a smoldering stick, so they wouldn't

861
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: have to start a new fire. You So like in

862
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: North America, that's commonly called it an apache matt okay

863
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: and so um. And there's obviously depends on where you go.

864
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: They got a different name for it. Right with the

865
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: concepts the same where you remove embers from the fire

866
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: and you put some punk wood or something that will

867
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: smolder for long periods of time, and you wrap that

868
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 1: in a container which will often be barred or grasses

869
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 1: or something um. And then at that point you can

870
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: basically just like sometimes you can swing it through the air.

871
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: You just want to keep enough oxygen in that thing

872
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: so that those embers continue to smolder. You can walk

873
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: for miles with something like that. And then we start there.

874
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: And it's much more uh or much less uh energy

875
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: required to do so, right, because if I have to

876
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: get my kid out again and expend a bunch of

877
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: energy and effort into creating an ember um and depending

878
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 1: up on what conditions are, that's gonna be a lot more. Uh.

879
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: You just effort exerted, right, And if I've already got

880
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 1: these embers, now all I need is tender and I

881
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: put those and I can blow it back into flame again.

882
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: It's just just back to fundamentals in terms of knowledge

883
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 1: of nature and how to use resources around you. Yeah. Well, um,

884
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: it's something that I think you're known for, especially on

885
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 1: your Instagram page what i'd see all the time. I

886
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: think it's cool and and and I have some knowledge

887
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: of flint napping, but you do a lot of flint

888
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: napping and making stone projectile points that you're hunting with

889
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: I do. Uh. Yeah, it's it's definitely become a passion

890
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 1: of mine. Where did you learn that? So I first

891
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: got interested in it and probably about nineteen seven and

892
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: I my first year of college, I moved to East

893
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 1: Tennessee and I went to University of Tennessee. And uh,

894
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 1: mainly because I was a kid and I just wanted

895
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: to leave home, you know what I mean. I just

896
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 1: wanted to get out and do something different. And for

897
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: no other reason then be kind of because it sounded interesting.

898
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 1: I took a class called prehistoric archaeology, and I had

899
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 1: changed your life. It changed my life. Um, I had

900
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: no idea who my professor was going to be, but

901
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,760
Speaker 1: it turned out it was a guy named Jan Schimmuck,

902
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: and he's like a world class archaeologist. He goes to

903
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:08,280
Speaker 1: France and excavates Neanderthal uh graves and that that type

904
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: of thing. Fascinating guy. And he was showing these images

905
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: of you know, various levels of early man uh creating

906
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: these stone tools. And of course I knew about their

907
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 1: heads and stuff at that point, but I never knew

908
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 1: how they were made until that point. And um, you know,

909
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: I got really interested in it, and I started trying

910
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 1: to learn on my own. But of course, back then,

911
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: you know, there wasn't hardly any internet, let alone you know,

912
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: YouTube and stuff where you can go learn how to

913
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: do this stuff. So I fumbled around for a while

914
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 1: and when wasn't any good at it. And I tried it,

915
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: you know, on and off, for probably a year or two, um,

916
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: and then I kind of put it down for a while.

917
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 1: And of course I was in college. You get into

918
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 1: whatever you get into, right, and when I, uh, when

919
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: I decided. So fast forward a little ahead, a little

920
00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 1: bit of time. You know, I well, I guess, first

921
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: go back. I started learning how to shoot bow when

922
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 1: I was probably about nine years old. My dad gave

923
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 1: me a compound bow and I was shooting it instinctively

924
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: with no release, no sycs or anything, totally totally um.

925
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 1: And so I hunted that way, you know, quite a

926
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:17,879
Speaker 1: bit through high school and stuff with firearms as well,

927
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 1: but but that way, and then UM put the bow

928
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 1: down for a while. I was in college. Well from

929
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 1: near the end of college, I decided I want to

930
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 1: start bow hunting again. And when I picked a bow

931
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: up again, as when I started having an interesting like,

932
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I remember when I was you know, flint

933
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: napping and that sort of thing. And again I kind

934
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 1: of messed around with it on and off for a while.

935
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: But about four or five years ago, um, partially because

936
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: you know, of life changes and things. I've got a

937
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: couple of kids and family. Well, I couldn't I couldn't

938
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: be gone as much, right, I couldn't be gone on

939
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,040
Speaker 1: these expeditions and these things. I needed to find things it,

940
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: um I was interested in, but that I could do,

941
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 1: and you know, in proximity. So that's when I really

942
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 1: started investing a lot more time in these primitive skills.

943
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: And so, you know, I asked myself, I was like,

944
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 1: where are you gonna keep fooling around with us? Or

945
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 1: are you going to commit and learn how to do it?

946
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,399
Speaker 1: Because that's what it is. It's committing, right, And it's

947
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 1: like anything in life, what do you want to be

948
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:26,240
Speaker 1: good at? Until you commit, you're never gonna reach your potential.

949
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 1: And so, um, that's what I did was I was like, okay, um,

950
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: either need to put this away or I need to

951
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 1: do it. And so at that point, it was just

952
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 1: like everyone. I could talk to, everything, I could read, everything,

953
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 1: I could watch, and you know, and I still not

954
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 1: And I don't mean to act like I'm an expert

955
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 1: by any means, because I still have, I mean, so

956
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: much to learn. There's really no end too. Uh. You

957
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: know what you can learn when it comes to creating

958
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: stone tools, and there's all kind of kinds of different

959
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 1: technologies and ways that you can go about doing it.

960
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 1: But what I have kind of come to, um kind

961
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 1: of I guess who you want to say specialize in

962
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: is creating uh, you know, simple stone arrowheads for the

963
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 1: purpose of bow hunting. You know, some people get into

964
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 1: make night blades, and I've done a little bit of that,

965
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: but predominantly, um, you know, I'm trying to recreate functional

966
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 1: points that you know, that I can actually carry out.

967
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: You make some beautiful stuff, Thank you very much, UM

968
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 1: And uh yeah, it's just an endless uh source of

969
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 1: fascination for you know what you just said. I like

970
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,280
Speaker 1: what you did there as a as a life strategy.

971
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,320
Speaker 1: You went into a new season of life. So you

972
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 1: were this like adventure like traveling, traveling all over the

973
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 1: world in some cases, and then you had a family

974
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: and had the kids, couldn't couldn't do that as much

975
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 1: of that stuff, and so you started dedicating yourself to

976
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 1: some of this craft that you can learn at home.

977
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: I identify with that because I feel like inside of

978
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: people there is this like there's this like space that

979
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: we want to fill up with and for us and

980
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: for the people listening to the podcasts probably want to

981
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: fill up with outdoor adventure related just you know, something

982
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: inside of that field. And I find that you don't

983
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 1: always have to fill it with the most exciting, crazy

984
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 1: extreme of what you're interested in to fulfill that thing

985
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 1: inside of you. I mean, like, uh, and I've got

986
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 1: some examples in my life of similar things when it's

987
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 1: like I know, I can't go do that, but I

988
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 1: can't do this and find real satisfaction in doing this thing.

989
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, for some guys, it's reloading ammunition. Yeah, yeah,

990
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: you know. For for other guys it's it's it's time flies,

991
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 1: yeah you know. I mean you think for a lot

992
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:46,720
Speaker 1: of guys, that's shooting bows. You know, in the outdoor industry,

993
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 1: there's so much emphasis on like you scroll through Instagram,

994
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: Facebook and all these influential hunters and non just hunters,

995
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: like they're shooting their bow, shooting their bow, shooting their bow,

996
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:00,080
Speaker 1: shooting the ball. It's great to shoot your bow. I

997
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: think people use that as a tool to just fill

998
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 1: up that space inside of them because because you don't,

999
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 1: you don't have to. I'm gonna get known as the

1000
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: guy that says you don't have to practice with your boat.

1001
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 1: I'm okay with that. You don't have to practice that

1002
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: much to be able to kill a deer at twenty yards,

1003
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. But I but I think,

1004
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:20,760
Speaker 1: and and then it kind of becomes like this major, major,

1005
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: massive focus, Like hitting a pie played at twenty yards

1006
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: of the compound boat is not the limiting factor of hunting.

1007
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 1: It's awesome that we like to shoot, and that becomes

1008
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,720
Speaker 1: something that we like dial in. And there are certainly

1009
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 1: Western guys that are shooting animals at longer distance and

1010
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 1: and I are gonna kill more game because they're good

1011
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: shooters most of the time. Not though, yeah, irrelevant, But

1012
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:46,800
Speaker 1: I like what you said there because I can identify

1013
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 1: with like dialing into something a little bit different. But

1014
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:55,759
Speaker 1: that's building your repertoire of functionality, you know. And I

1015
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 1: don't want to create the image that I like, I'm

1016
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: I'm not walking out in the woods nothing building my

1017
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: arrows out there and then hunting, you know what I mean,

1018
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 1: Like that's a whole other thing. I mean. I have

1019
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 1: done some extended trips where I have I have walked

1020
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 1: out into the uh you know what I would say,

1021
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 1: very remote wilderness and carried very you know, no modern

1022
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:19,320
Speaker 1: camping gear. I've gone out on trips with stone tools

1023
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 1: and things like that and tried to hunt. And I

1024
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 1: can tell you right now it's incredibly difficult if you

1025
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 1: think you're gonna go out there and do it. Um

1026
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,360
Speaker 1: you know, you know what, with the with the backdrop

1027
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 1: of our modern lives, I think it's almost impossible to

1028
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:38,439
Speaker 1: really replicate the drive and the necessity of living that way.

1029
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 1: Like we could we could go out and think that

1030
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: we could replicate exactly what it would be like to

1031
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 1: be a Native American and have no choice but to

1032
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: survive out there. But it is impossible to replicate that

1033
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 1: because we always have a backdrop. There's always something going on. Yeah,

1034
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: well there's always I mean, allow, yeah, I mean unless

1035
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 1: there was somebody that said, really, I will go in

1036
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: the woods and die like I'm not walking back to

1037
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: the truck, I mean, and nobody nobody says that. No,

1038
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 1: no one does. And I you know, I've tried to

1039
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:11,759
Speaker 1: push it pretty hard. I mean I've done things where

1040
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: I lost over twenty pounds. Yeah, we're on that country

1041
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 1: trips because I was trying to do that exact thing.

1042
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, you you walk out a little

1043
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 1: later looking like you were in a prison camp for

1044
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,240
Speaker 1: a while, you know, and most people that's not very appealing,

1045
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 1: that's not it's not like a lot of fun. But

1046
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 1: you know, if you you know, you don't know what

1047
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 1: you're capable of unless you pull the trigger. Sometimes you

1048
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 1: can have figured out for yourself. That's cool man, Okay,

1049
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 1: flint nappy and I want to talk a little bit.

1050
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 1: Give it. Give us a just a like a short

1051
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 1: description of like how you would take like what kind

1052
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: of mariol how you would So we're working we're working

1053
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 1: with what most people call flint, but that can end

1054
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 1: up being it's some type of rock that fractures predictably

1055
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 1: through something called a hertzy and cone, and so glass

1056
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 1: will do that. You can use modern glass because it's

1057
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 1: an amorphous material. What kind of rock, it's a metamorphic Yeah,

1058
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 1: it can be like so for example, um, you know

1059
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 1: you've got obsidian, right, Like that was a very classic

1060
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: one that Native Americans would have mine from volcanic areas. Right,

1061
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 1: You've got stuff like that. But then you also have

1062
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 1: like down in Texas, there's many many different types of

1063
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 1: shirt that occur down there. So you have things like

1064
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: Pedernality's shirt and Georgetown and a lot of these. And

1065
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:37,440
Speaker 1: this is this is a smooth rock. It's a very

1066
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 1: The key thing about it is it fractures predictably. That's

1067
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 1: what you have to have. You can't use sandstone. You know,

1068
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 1: you're not using sedimentary rocks really of any kind that

1069
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 1: I'm aware of. So they've got to be heated ahead

1070
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: of time because that creates this crystalline structure within the

1071
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: stone that is needed in order to predict how the

1072
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: stone is going to Like what would they so up here?

1073
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 1: Like like right in this particular area, I don't think

1074
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 1: there's yeah, so there there is some shirt around here

1075
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: for sure that you could yeah, that you could nap.

1076
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 1: But the thing is is really coarse grained. The courser,

1077
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: the grain it is, the harder the stone is to work.

1078
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 1: So north of here there are some bands of hired

1079
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 1: and within Arkansas and we have we have uh, what

1080
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 1: is it called pikin um over you have Crowley's Ridge.

1081
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 1: There's some shirt over there that's pretty good. And then

1082
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: end up in the Missouri there's some actually world class

1083
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 1: types of shirt up there that people really like. Um

1084
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 1: and I again another good classic example is like I

1085
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 1: that's one thing I'm very interested in is personally is

1086
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: learning more about our local uh types of shirt and

1087
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 1: flint that we have. But it goes back again, like

1088
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 1: I think I mentioned already, is like how do you

1089
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:54,400
Speaker 1: want to spend your time. Do you want to spend

1090
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 1: your time looking for the stuff or do you want

1091
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 1: to spend your time making airheads? And for me, you know,

1092
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 1: I wish my knowledge was better in terms of what

1093
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 1: is locally available, but I'd rather just learn more about

1094
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: making airhoods at least at this point, you know, I'm

1095
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 1: still learning. And that's so. Um, lots of times I

1096
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 1: trade for stone or I'll even there's places online you

1097
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 1: can buy it if you want to. And I have,

1098
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 1: you know, gone around even just around here, and I've

1099
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 1: gotten into a habit. When you pick up piece of stone,

1100
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 1: you take another rock and you can strike it, and

1101
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: based upon how it breaks, you can determine pretty quickly

1102
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: if it is a good candidate to try to make

1103
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 1: a point out of um, And it just takes some

1104
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 1: time to recognize that. But from there, um, you've got

1105
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: to have a toolkit. Right. And so there's different types

1106
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 1: of percussion in the way that you strike the circussion

1107
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 1: that what it's called. Yeah, So there's different kinds of percussion.

1108
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 1: You have hard hammer and soft hammer percussion. So example

1109
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 1: of hard hammer would be pick up a rocket with

1110
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 1: another rock, right, So soft hammer would be using antler

1111
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: or corn or something like that and and uh or

1112
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 1: even would in some cases, although that's that's much less

1113
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:08,160
Speaker 1: common and so um, you have direct percussion where I'm

1114
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 1: holding the stone in one hand and I strike it

1115
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 1: with an antler on the other hand. And you have

1116
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 1: indirect percussion. Um, And that's where you have like a

1117
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 1: piece of antler that you know, you're bouncing the stone

1118
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 1: on your leg, you have another piece of antler that

1119
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 1: you're holding in a particular angle, and then you strike

1120
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: that antler with another antler. That's indirect percussion. And you

1121
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 1: started to see kind of a resurgence, especially if you

1122
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 1: want to jump in the circles of flint napping on

1123
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 1: on Instagram and all that type of stuff. You see

1124
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 1: a lot of guys doing that stuff because on to

1125
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 1: some degree, it gives you a higher level of control

1126
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 1: in terms of direct Yeah, because of the angle that

1127
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 1: you can control a little bit better. Um, but it

1128
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 1: does require a little bit more tool. So you're you're

1129
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:53,919
Speaker 1: taking ah, if you were trying to make a point

1130
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 1: the size of an era head, which most people would understand,

1131
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 1: you know, something like under two inches long, maybe maybe

1132
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 1: an inch and a half inch wide, Like how big

1133
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 1: of a rock would you have to start with, So

1134
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 1: it depends, but oftentimes what you do is you'll you'll

1135
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 1: you'll start with a large stone if if you have it,

1136
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,680
Speaker 1: and you'll knock off what's called a spall or a

1137
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 1: or a large flake. And so at first you remove

1138
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:19,480
Speaker 1: a large flake from that piece, and that large flake,

1139
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 1: you know, ideally, if you're starting out with something's maybe

1140
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 1: gonna be you know, somewhere be four to six inches

1141
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 1: uh and thin ideally, because the thinner you start with,

1142
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 1: the easier it is to get to an arrowhead um.

1143
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:33,919
Speaker 1: If you start with something that with a big hump

1144
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 1: on it, that we often refer to as a turtleback,

1145
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 1: that's a problem you gotta deal with. And so you're

1146
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 1: just setting yourself up to be challenged. So a nice

1147
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 1: thin flake or a spall. Then from there you'll use

1148
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 1: one of these percussion methods to whittle that thing down

1149
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 1: to a point or to the shape of something that

1150
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 1: you feel like is close to what you're after. Then

1151
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 1: the next stage that you'll move onto is pressure flaking,

1152
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 1: and that's what many people are familiar with. Modern people

1153
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:05,120
Speaker 1: are modern flint nappers tend to use copper pressure flakers.

1154
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 1: And there is definitely evidence that Native people is also

1155
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 1: actually smelted copper and used copper tips to flat points.

1156
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:14,919
Speaker 1: Yeah that that you know, we don't have a whole

1157
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 1: lot of research about that, but I have read things

1158
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 1: that that proved, um that even when even when they

1159
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 1: had the abilities to create copper tools, um, their skills

1160
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 1: were so much more fined at making stone tools and

1161
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 1: it was so hard to smelt that copper that they

1162
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 1: realized that if they could just get a little bit

1163
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,160
Speaker 1: of copper, they were way more efficient and making stone

1164
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 1: tools with it. And so um. But traditionally what people

1165
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 1: think about is uh tips of antler and that's often

1166
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 1: referred to as abbo or aboriginal napping. And so if

1167
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: you want to do it, you know, because and again,

1168
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:54,520
Speaker 1: just like anything, you're into what was the first stage

1169
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 1: when you're just banging out the kind of general shape

1170
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 1: of that, that's percussion, and then then you move to

1171
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 1: pressure flaking. So percussion and then pressure pressure flaking is

1172
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 1: where you're putting that serrated edge on the actual stone

1173
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:14,919
Speaker 1: point itself, you know, and so the stone the way

1174
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 1: the stone flakes, you can you can put pressure, put

1175
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 1: it on your leg, you can, yeah, correct, you need

1176
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 1: something to protect yourself otherwise you're driving these razor sharp

1177
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 1: micro flakes into your hand or or into your leg,

1178
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 1: and so yes, typically use a piece of leather to

1179
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 1: protect yourself. And then you either holding it in your

1180
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 1: hand or pushing it on your thigh or you above

1181
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 1: your knee on your leg, and you're applying pressure at

1182
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 1: a particular angle with the flaking tool, whether really small

1183
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 1: tip like a big copper, could be the tip of

1184
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 1: an antler exactly popping it down and ye, and in

1185
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:57,280
Speaker 1: order to create a nice smooth point, you need to

1186
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 1: be able to run flakes at least halfway a cross,

1187
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:03,360
Speaker 1: because if you can't get halfway a cross on eather side,

1188
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 1: So like let's say we have an arrowhead, right, So

1189
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 1: a narrowhead like this, and I'm driving fleakes on this side,

1190
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 1: and I'm driving flakes on this side. Well, if they

1191
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 1: don't overlap slightly, you're gonna end up with this middle

1192
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 1: park that doesn't get uh flaked away. And so it's

1193
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 1: there you go. The problem is, though, is that part

1194
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 1: is gonna be It's gonna be, it won't be sharp,

1195
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:31,080
Speaker 1: and it's gonna there's resistance there right when it enters exactly,

1196
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:34,000
Speaker 1: it's problematic. So you want to make sure that, um,

1197
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 1: those flakes are are and it's it make it's a

1198
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 1: lot easier to understand when you see it, right, they're

1199
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 1: explaining it. Um. But as you whittle these things down

1200
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,960
Speaker 1: or chip them down, UM, you end up with something

1201
01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 1: hopefully that's generally pretty symmetrical. And I mean, and they're

1202
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,880
Speaker 1: razor sharp. I mean, there's no questions. My next question is, Okay,

1203
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 1: when I first started messing around with flint points, um,

1204
01:04:57,160 --> 01:04:59,720
Speaker 1: I spent a year or two hunting with them. Yeah,

1205
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 1: and um, my question, I never even shot at an

1206
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:08,720
Speaker 1: animal with one, Like just I didn't commit the whole season.

1207
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 1: So it would be like I was picking and choosing

1208
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 1: when I was bringing the flint point, and it just

1209
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 1: seemed like every time I chose not to bring it,

1210
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:19,160
Speaker 1: that's when I'd get a shot at. When I brought it,

1211
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. My thing was like how effective of a

1212
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 1: killing tool is this? It's very I mean, you know,

1213
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 1: you can look at it a few different ways. One is,

1214
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 1: you know, modern and modern times anyway, we still have

1215
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,520
Speaker 1: to look at like how ethical is it to with

1216
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 1: a tool like that? And so you know, it needs

1217
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 1: to be razor sharp, and if it's not, it's it's

1218
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:46,040
Speaker 1: not appropriate. When I say razor sharp, you know it's

1219
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 1: it's contradictory in some ways because modern broadheads are not serrated, right,

1220
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:52,840
Speaker 1: They're like knife blade. But I guess that's not an

1221
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:54,800
Speaker 1: example because knife can be serrated. But there it's like

1222
01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:58,680
Speaker 1: a razor edge literally, right. And you know, I for me,

1223
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 1: if I'm hunting with a steel bad head, I need

1224
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 1: to be able to slice paper with that thing, and

1225
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 1: if I can, it's not sharp enough. Well, you can't

1226
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:08,919
Speaker 1: use the same measuring stick for a stone point because

1227
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:12,040
Speaker 1: it doesn't work the same way as a regular broadhead.

1228
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 1: A regular broadhead will slice through flesh very cleanly. In

1229
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:20,160
Speaker 1: contrast to that, a stone point has these micro edges.

1230
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:22,800
Speaker 1: They'll cut literally, it's a serration that comes to a

1231
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:29,360
Speaker 1: tip exactly, and it will will it tears flesh rather

1232
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 1: than kind of cutting through it as it moves through.

1233
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 1: So the two components that a stone point needs in

1234
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:38,959
Speaker 1: order to be functionally appropriate, at least in my mind,

1235
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 1: is the tip needs to be like a needle. It

1236
01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 1: needs to be razor point exactly exactly. Yep. So that's

1237
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:51,240
Speaker 1: the first characteristic that it's got to have. The next

1238
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 1: thing is that those serrations, the tips of those serrations.

1239
01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 1: I mean, if I take one of mine and I

1240
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 1: just drag it quickly across my hand, it's gonna cut

1241
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:03,520
Speaker 1: my hand open. And if you can't do that, then

1242
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 1: it's not sharp enough to hunt with. And so um,

1243
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 1: you know, it takes time definitely to get them to

1244
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:13,520
Speaker 1: the point where and that doesn't I'm not saying you

1245
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:16,280
Speaker 1: couldn't kill a deer with a one that wasn't that sharp,

1246
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 1: but it's just simply not going to perform as well.

1247
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:22,200
Speaker 1: And I think you know, in if we're talking about

1248
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:26,680
Speaker 1: a Native American thousand years ago, they I'm not here

1249
01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:28,920
Speaker 1: to say whether or not I know anything about what

1250
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 1: their ethics were back then, right, Their ethics were they

1251
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 1: needed to eat and they were going to do whatever

1252
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:37,600
Speaker 1: they needed to do. They were motivated from a little

1253
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 1: bit different direction exactly, and they would have taken shots

1254
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:45,040
Speaker 1: that we simply wouldn't take today as ethical hunters, simply

1255
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:50,880
Speaker 1: because you know exactly our life depended on it every

1256
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 1: time we hunted, precisely, you know, so yeah, I'm not

1257
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 1: gonna take a gut shot on a on an animal knowingly,

1258
01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 1: but I feel almost confident that they would have because

1259
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:02,960
Speaker 1: they were trying to eat and they had to eat.

1260
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:06,240
Speaker 1: And so but having said that, you know, if you're

1261
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 1: gonna do something like that, um, there are still considerations

1262
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 1: you know, that you have to take. But you know,

1263
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 1: properly prepared stone points, there's no doubt in my mind,

1264
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:18,760
Speaker 1: you know, if it's placed. When you think about when

1265
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 1: you think about the breadth of human history, I mean,

1266
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:29,040
Speaker 1: humans have been surviving a shorter amount of time using

1267
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:34,400
Speaker 1: modern technologies for dispatching animals than they had using stone points.

1268
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:36,920
Speaker 1: I mean humanity was built on the back of a

1269
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:39,839
Speaker 1: stone point. And so that's why that's why it's bizarre.

1270
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 1: That's why it's ironic that like we would even be

1271
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:46,599
Speaker 1: having a discussion about whether this is ethical, I mean

1272
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:53,599
Speaker 1: for the conversation, but like the people that would say

1273
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:56,519
Speaker 1: it's unethical, I would just say, man, why don't you

1274
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:00,160
Speaker 1: go back and study a little bit of human history? Well,

1275
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:02,040
Speaker 1: And the other thing that to me to sort of

1276
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:03,640
Speaker 1: flip that on its head in a way that's so

1277
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:08,439
Speaker 1: interesting is there are more people flint napping right now

1278
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:12,560
Speaker 1: than there have been in probably a thousand years. And

1279
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:15,960
Speaker 1: it's crazy as it is. It's because of Instagram, it's

1280
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:18,679
Speaker 1: because of all of YouTube, it's because of all these

1281
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:22,439
Speaker 1: you know resources. So you know, I'm definitely one of

1282
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:25,080
Speaker 1: these guys that just some degree that falls in the

1283
01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:29,519
Speaker 1: camp of like you know, our internets, this double edged sword, right, Like,

1284
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 1: there's so much junk out there, and there's there's a

1285
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:35,320
Speaker 1: lot of negative that comes whether or not it's it's

1286
01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 1: something as simple of staring into a screen all day

1287
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:41,840
Speaker 1: for kid or just all this negative is um right,

1288
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 1: that comes from whether in whatever form that takes. But

1289
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 1: there's this other side where you know, you have this

1290
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:53,800
Speaker 1: community that is in and I don't care what your

1291
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:56,280
Speaker 1: thing is, there's a community out there for it, you

1292
01:09:56,360 --> 01:10:00,240
Speaker 1: know online that are sharing skills and do doing that

1293
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:03,800
Speaker 1: and that's the cool part. And because of that, you know,

1294
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 1: there are a lot of resources that up until very recently,

1295
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:09,920
Speaker 1: the last few years, you know, wouldn't not have been

1296
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:12,840
Speaker 1: available to people. And so you know, when you think

1297
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:16,519
Speaker 1: about the communication. We we bought this book the other day, uh,

1298
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:23,960
Speaker 1: this fox firebook. This would have been the way to

1299
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 1: preserve these like ancient technologies man communication, modern video like

1300
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:37,760
Speaker 1: all this stuff is revolutionized the human experience to something

1301
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:40,240
Speaker 1: that we don't even know what direction it's going. I mean,

1302
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:43,400
Speaker 1: it's bizarre because like, yeah, you can. You didn't have

1303
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:47,080
Speaker 1: to know a Native American. You didn't have to know

1304
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:50,920
Speaker 1: somebody that. I mean, you went on the internet and

1305
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:53,400
Speaker 1: learned how that Yeah, exactly, you know, And of course

1306
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:56,400
Speaker 1: they're that still doesn't take the place of having a

1307
01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:59,680
Speaker 1: very experienced person show you. And I don't want to

1308
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:04,760
Speaker 1: know create that UM or have that misconception there because

1309
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:07,720
Speaker 1: there's no exception for a good teacher or someone that

1310
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:10,519
Speaker 1: has hands on stale and and I think that's across

1311
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:13,680
Speaker 1: the board whatever you're into. UM. But unfortunately for me,

1312
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:15,760
Speaker 1: you know, they're kind of wouldn't anybody around me they

1313
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:17,439
Speaker 1: could show me, So I just kind of had to

1314
01:11:17,479 --> 01:11:19,040
Speaker 1: figure it out. And of course a lot of it's

1315
01:11:19,080 --> 01:11:22,120
Speaker 1: just trial and error. I mean, anyone that wants to

1316
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:24,479
Speaker 1: get into flipping up and I'm like, okay, well, uh,

1317
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:28,280
Speaker 1: you're gonna basically pulverize a couple hundred pounds of rocks

1318
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:31,440
Speaker 1: and turn them into dust, and you're gonna get real frustrated,

1319
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:33,240
Speaker 1: and then at some point you're gonna end up with

1320
01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:35,800
Speaker 1: something that's starting to look like an arrowhead and then

1321
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:38,719
Speaker 1: from there, you know, you're it's just gonna be slowly,

1322
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:41,280
Speaker 1: but surely you'll keep on refinding it. Man, right here,

1323
01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:43,639
Speaker 1: I'll show you when we're done. I've got a collection

1324
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: of stone points, many of which I've found on this property,

1325
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 1: on your proper and you can see the difference and

1326
01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:55,080
Speaker 1: skill level. Yeah, and that's so fascinating to pick up

1327
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:56,960
Speaker 1: a stone point, like there's there's one up here that

1328
01:11:56,960 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 1: I can show you that, like you just wonder, you're like, man,

1329
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 1: I bet a fourteen year old boy. I've had really yeah,

1330
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:06,720
Speaker 1: interesting discussions with people about like, you know, was this

1331
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:10,040
Speaker 1: a beginner or was it a kid? You know? And

1332
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:12,879
Speaker 1: then the other thing is is like I've I've definitely

1333
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:16,040
Speaker 1: um talked with people that are are of the oppression

1334
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:19,560
Speaker 1: that like, Okay, if there's a tribe or a community

1335
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:23,320
Speaker 1: of of early people, you know, I feel like maybe

1336
01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 1: there was one guy and he was the napper and

1337
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:29,120
Speaker 1: he's building points and tools for everybody, and all the

1338
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:31,160
Speaker 1: other guys are the hunters, you know what I mean.

1339
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:33,720
Speaker 1: So it's kind of fun to think about how the

1340
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:37,519
Speaker 1: four verses like was each hunter did he have his

1341
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:40,000
Speaker 1: own style on his own I think it's there's a

1342
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:42,080
Speaker 1: lot of argument to say that's probably less likely because

1343
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 1: flint napping is very time consuming. So to think that

1344
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:47,320
Speaker 1: you know, you're gonna make all your own tools and

1345
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:49,520
Speaker 1: all this stuff and then go hunting, Sure, it's possible,

1346
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:51,800
Speaker 1: no doubt about it. But I think there's a case

1347
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:54,640
Speaker 1: to be made because there's no doubt that like some

1348
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:58,000
Speaker 1: people just kind of get it, they just gravitate towards it,

1349
01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:01,120
Speaker 1: right and there, um, there's um, you know, locally, we

1350
01:13:01,240 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 1: have that up in Pentonville. We've got that Native American Museum.

1351
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:07,400
Speaker 1: If you haven't met up there in that place is incredible.

1352
01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:09,920
Speaker 1: One of the and I don't know if it's still

1353
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:11,439
Speaker 1: up there because I think it was on loan, But

1354
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:14,040
Speaker 1: there's a tool up there that called the sweetwater by

1355
01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:18,280
Speaker 1: Face and it was found in Texas, and to my knowledge,

1356
01:13:18,439 --> 01:13:22,040
Speaker 1: no modern napper has been able to replicate this tool.

1357
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:25,880
Speaker 1: What's it called. It's called the sweetwater Byface. And there's

1358
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 1: a there's a ratio of width to thickness that very

1359
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:37,519
Speaker 1: skilled nappers will try to emulate. And once you get

1360
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:41,080
Speaker 1: so wide, you can only get so thin right before

1361
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:44,439
Speaker 1: it gets very difficult to do. And that particular phase

1362
01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 1: among artifacts is world class. I mean, it's as good

1363
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:52,160
Speaker 1: as almost anything, because though it's crazy why I want

1364
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:55,080
Speaker 1: to say, it's like nineteen or or so millimeters wide

1365
01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:59,479
Speaker 1: and it's like crazy thin, and it's just unbelievable that

1366
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:03,840
Speaker 1: you know, whoever made it was said, did you mean centimeters?

1367
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:07,240
Speaker 1: Nineteen cinemas He has his fingers. I understood what you're saying,

1368
01:14:07,560 --> 01:14:11,320
Speaker 1: you know, like three inches or something exactly, like but

1369
01:14:11,479 --> 01:14:14,479
Speaker 1: like paper thing exactly. Yeah, it's unbelievable when you look

1370
01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:17,439
Speaker 1: at it in profile. I mean, if you dropped it

1371
01:14:17,479 --> 01:14:21,680
Speaker 1: on this concrete floor with shatter into you know. Um,

1372
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:26,559
Speaker 1: and it's a remarkable artifact. Fascinating stuff, fascinating stuff. Um.

1373
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:31,280
Speaker 1: You know. I I've got to say this just because

1374
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:34,120
Speaker 1: it's on my mind, all these points found in my

1375
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:38,200
Speaker 1: front yard. You know. I was pretty heavily ridiculed, uh

1376
01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:41,840
Speaker 1: the other day online for did you see any of that?

1377
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:44,960
Speaker 1: A little bit? Okay, there's no shortage of opinions out there.

1378
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:49,320
Speaker 1: So I wrote an article for meat Eater that was

1379
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:53,840
Speaker 1: on that was called six tips for finding stone point

1380
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 1: and uh man, I so I just wrote these sick

1381
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:02,200
Speaker 1: tips for fighting stone points. You know, I mean just

1382
01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 1: kind of like practical places to look. And we made

1383
01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:07,960
Speaker 1: mention early in the article about how you know you

1384
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:10,880
Speaker 1: need to check your regulations because it technically it's illegal

1385
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:16,639
Speaker 1: to take it basically anything off of public. And man,

1386
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 1: I was skewered with with I had people like private

1387
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:27,360
Speaker 1: messaging me like, just people take this stuff very serious.

1388
01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:30,640
Speaker 1: And you know, what I was trying to say was,

1389
01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:34,800
Speaker 1: you know, on private land where you have permission to

1390
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:38,080
Speaker 1: gather stone points, like, there were people like trying to

1391
01:15:38,120 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 1: say that it would be have better for me to

1392
01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:42,439
Speaker 1: have left all these stone points in my front yard.

1393
01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:45,120
Speaker 1: I mean, essentially that's what they were saying. But but

1394
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:48,560
Speaker 1: and I realized it's one of these like mass communication

1395
01:15:49,240 --> 01:15:52,280
Speaker 1: kind of misses because what they were what they were

1396
01:15:52,320 --> 01:15:56,680
Speaker 1: saying was that I was encouraging people to loot archaeological

1397
01:15:56,840 --> 01:16:00,799
Speaker 1: sites like, which was not at all your point zero

1398
01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 1: run point. Even one person who I engaged with a

1399
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:07,160
Speaker 1: little bit, he seemed like a normal guy. I was like,

1400
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:11,080
Speaker 1: so you're telling me that you want me to call

1401
01:16:11,520 --> 01:16:14,400
Speaker 1: maybe the University of Arkansas to come out to my

1402
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:19,040
Speaker 1: front yard and set up an archaeological dig and uh.

1403
01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:21,600
Speaker 1: And I was like, man, there's not enough time, not

1404
01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:24,600
Speaker 1: enough money, there's more places that are better, so you

1405
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:26,559
Speaker 1: may just leave my stone points in the front yard.

1406
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:30,200
Speaker 1: And he was kind of like, you know, he was

1407
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:33,760
Speaker 1: kind of like, well no, but and I was like, okay,

1408
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:35,479
Speaker 1: well then that's what I'm talking about. What I'm talking

1409
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:40,280
Speaker 1: about legal, I'm not even necessarily talking about anyway. That's

1410
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:44,519
Speaker 1: a whole different story about And you know, you have

1411
01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:47,519
Speaker 1: to have to recognize that there's a lot of ways

1412
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:50,240
Speaker 1: to look at that. And you know, I think you

1413
01:16:50,800 --> 01:16:53,920
Speaker 1: tried to do your due diligence about you know, doing

1414
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:56,559
Speaker 1: things ethically and being responsible and that sort of thing.

1415
01:16:56,680 --> 01:17:00,439
Speaker 1: But everyone, you know, you asked him people, you get

1416
01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:04,439
Speaker 1: ten different opinions, right, And um, I certainly am a

1417
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:07,800
Speaker 1: proponent a of of not doing anything illegal in terms

1418
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:10,760
Speaker 1: of removing points from public land. And the other thing,

1419
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:15,960
Speaker 1: um is being respectful to uh first people's in terms

1420
01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:18,920
Speaker 1: of you know, but the fact of the matter is,

1421
01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:22,479
Speaker 1: unless you're an archaeologist and you come in, you know,

1422
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 1: knowing at what point said stone point was made. Are

1423
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:30,640
Speaker 1: we talking about a you know, a o sage, you know,

1424
01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:34,160
Speaker 1: native American that lived in the Ozarks several hundred years ago.

1425
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:36,920
Speaker 1: Are we talking about an at Lattle point that was

1426
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:42,439
Speaker 1: from an early archaic period that no one knows, you know,

1427
01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:46,760
Speaker 1: even what current Native Americans might may or may not

1428
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:49,920
Speaker 1: have been related to that individual, Right, And so you

1429
01:17:50,080 --> 01:17:52,240
Speaker 1: just open up this can of worms that there's kind

1430
01:17:52,280 --> 01:17:54,760
Speaker 1: of no answer to that. That doesn't mean that we

1431
01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:58,240
Speaker 1: shouldn't be, you know, respectful to those first people's you

1432
01:17:58,280 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 1: know that came and and traveled through this country. Um,

1433
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:04,880
Speaker 1: but at the same time, it's a tricky subject. Well,

1434
01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:07,679
Speaker 1: and I and I and I didn't want to open

1435
01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:10,760
Speaker 1: up a cannon or because I'm all for preservation of

1436
01:18:11,400 --> 01:18:15,559
Speaker 1: archaeological sites and respect. I mean, to me, those stone

1437
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:19,040
Speaker 1: points setting right there and me showing every person that

1438
01:18:19,160 --> 01:18:22,760
Speaker 1: comes in this office, that is like a massive Yeah,

1439
01:18:22,800 --> 01:18:26,320
Speaker 1: you're paying to those people who were here. I mean,

1440
01:18:26,400 --> 01:18:28,880
Speaker 1: you're showing those to your kids, You're you're showing them

1441
01:18:28,880 --> 01:18:31,000
Speaker 1: to people, your guests, you know that come in here,

1442
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:34,160
Speaker 1: and you're like, look at this amazing thing that these

1443
01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:36,800
Speaker 1: people and always bring it back to the people like

1444
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:39,400
Speaker 1: I think about I think about the human you know

1445
01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:41,679
Speaker 1: that touch this, you know, that's what everybody does. Something

1446
01:18:41,800 --> 01:18:43,800
Speaker 1: anyway that's totally off topic. But I had to bring

1447
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:48,240
Speaker 1: that up because I haven't Uh. I haven't publicly addressed that,

1448
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:51,960
Speaker 1: but it's like, yeah, I'm not for looting archaeological sites

1449
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:54,719
Speaker 1: or doing anything illegal, but if I see a stone

1450
01:18:54,720 --> 01:18:57,080
Speaker 1: point in my front yard, I'm going to pick it up. Yeah,

1451
01:18:57,400 --> 01:19:00,280
Speaker 1: and I think and I'm gonna shown to I think

1452
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:03,120
Speaker 1: most people would. I mean again, you know, not to

1453
01:19:03,160 --> 01:19:06,040
Speaker 1: sit here and talk about what's right or wrong. But um,

1454
01:19:07,080 --> 01:19:09,160
Speaker 1: I mean otherwise, how does anyone ever know about it?

1455
01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:11,000
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? I mean, I guess if

1456
01:19:11,160 --> 01:19:13,640
Speaker 1: you couldn't go look at a museum. But yeah, I

1457
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:15,920
Speaker 1: don't know. There's Well what's wild to me is the

1458
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:19,280
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have known this till I started paying attention

1459
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:24,639
Speaker 1: then looking on the ground. Is that, man, the Native

1460
01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:30,400
Speaker 1: American occupation was widespread across this continent. They were everywhere,

1461
01:19:31,120 --> 01:19:34,280
Speaker 1: and they were here for so long. I mean, there's

1462
01:19:34,400 --> 01:19:38,160
Speaker 1: probably a stone point under the foundation of this building

1463
01:19:38,240 --> 01:19:40,680
Speaker 1: where in right now that no one I mean, just

1464
01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:43,840
Speaker 1: like something happened here, There was a human interaction here

1465
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:46,920
Speaker 1: that left evidence of the stuff. Mean, it was just

1466
01:19:47,160 --> 01:19:48,760
Speaker 1: it was the way that they lived in this room,

1467
01:19:48,920 --> 01:19:53,759
Speaker 1: you know. But now E one last question on the napping.

1468
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:59,040
Speaker 1: Have you have you taken an animal and part of

1469
01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:02,600
Speaker 1: the reason that I haven't is because I was not

1470
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:06,120
Speaker 1: confident that my points were ready and it and for me,

1471
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:09,360
Speaker 1: it very was very much an ethical uh stone point.

1472
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:13,240
Speaker 1: Now I have carried them with me, um, you know,

1473
01:20:13,479 --> 01:20:16,200
Speaker 1: just to sort of start getting the field for it

1474
01:20:16,280 --> 01:20:21,120
Speaker 1: and everything. But um, but you better believe this ball. Okay,

1475
01:20:21,240 --> 01:20:25,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be carrying stone points. Yeah. Well, man, that's

1476
01:20:25,720 --> 01:20:29,160
Speaker 1: a great place to talk about. Like, so now we

1477
01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:31,479
Speaker 1: have this pretty good picture of of who you are,

1478
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:36,640
Speaker 1: like a mountaineer, well traveled inside of that world, and

1479
01:20:36,760 --> 01:20:44,680
Speaker 1: then also a hunter. Um what is the like man, Like,

1480
01:20:45,479 --> 01:20:50,360
Speaker 1: we live in a area that's uh for Arkansas is

1481
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:54,599
Speaker 1: a pretty uh pretty wealthy area for Arkansas. I mean

1482
01:20:54,760 --> 01:21:00,320
Speaker 1: like uh like, uh what am I trying to get at? Uh? What? What?

1483
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:04,280
Speaker 1: What are the cultural divides between hunters and your and

1484
01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:08,000
Speaker 1: your outdoorsman that's a non hunter. I think a lot

1485
01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:11,920
Speaker 1: of it, you know, quite honestly comes down to a

1486
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:14,920
Speaker 1: lack of knowledge or a miscommunication a lot of times,

1487
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:19,040
Speaker 1: you know, because there's sometimes an assumption like again, like

1488
01:21:19,360 --> 01:21:21,840
Speaker 1: you know the shop that I work at, you know,

1489
01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:26,680
Speaker 1: pack Rat in Fayetteville. Um, we self technical equipment for

1490
01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 1: hikers climbers, canoeists, those types of things. Um, we do

1491
01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:36,799
Speaker 1: now carry longbows, and but it's for purposes recreational archery

1492
01:21:36,960 --> 01:21:39,040
Speaker 1: at this time. We're not necessary for money hunting. But

1493
01:21:39,479 --> 01:21:41,439
Speaker 1: I guess my point is is that those are the

1494
01:21:41,479 --> 01:21:44,000
Speaker 1: types of folks, you know, traditionally they're coming in, you know,

1495
01:21:44,080 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 1: to the shop. Now if a guy who normally doesn't

1496
01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:49,479
Speaker 1: do those things and he's a hunter, but he's getting

1497
01:21:49,479 --> 01:21:51,479
Speaker 1: ready to go on a trip and he needs a

1498
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:54,680
Speaker 1: camping stove, and he's like, oh, well, I can't get

1499
01:21:54,720 --> 01:21:57,519
Speaker 1: it at x ra Y hunting shop where I got

1500
01:21:57,600 --> 01:21:59,960
Speaker 1: my bow or where I bought my camo. But I'm

1501
01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:01,559
Speaker 1: want to go down there to that shop because they

1502
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:04,640
Speaker 1: sell that kind of stuff. I've seen it there a

1503
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:10,240
Speaker 1: lot of times. Is automatically like a they expect sometimes

1504
01:22:10,320 --> 01:22:14,519
Speaker 1: to be uh, look down upon a little bit or

1505
01:22:14,640 --> 01:22:20,920
Speaker 1: just like not understood, and um, you know, certainly sometimes

1506
01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:24,360
Speaker 1: there is a lack of information right in terms of

1507
01:22:24,479 --> 01:22:26,400
Speaker 1: like what it is that you're actually doing when you're

1508
01:22:26,439 --> 01:22:30,240
Speaker 1: out there. Because people that don't have a hunting background, um,

1509
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:33,320
Speaker 1: they're just not educated in it. And sometimes you know,

1510
01:22:33,760 --> 01:22:37,280
Speaker 1: they don't realize that some of the very best allies

1511
01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:40,240
Speaker 1: for conservations are hunter, right. I mean, we all know that,

1512
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:44,200
Speaker 1: but from all they see is the killing, you know,

1513
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:48,040
Speaker 1: And and I'm sure you guys would probably also agree

1514
01:22:49,120 --> 01:22:51,760
Speaker 1: that there are plenty of hunters out there that go

1515
01:22:52,479 --> 01:22:55,000
Speaker 1: do things that are not ethical, that they act and

1516
01:22:55,080 --> 01:22:59,559
Speaker 1: they do the rest of stereotype. I mean, I've seen

1517
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:02,200
Speaker 1: it time and time again, unfortunately, and ghost in Arkansas

1518
01:23:02,320 --> 01:23:04,599
Speaker 1: where I do a lot of my deer hunting, guys

1519
01:23:04,760 --> 01:23:06,680
Speaker 1: will road hunt and they shoot a deer and they

1520
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:08,760
Speaker 1: leave it laying there, and they don't even bother to

1521
01:23:08,800 --> 01:23:10,960
Speaker 1: get the meat, and they probably didn't have a hunting license.

1522
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:15,000
Speaker 1: And there's nothing for me worse than you know, seeing

1523
01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:18,519
Speaker 1: something like that. That's a poacher, that's not a hunter,

1524
01:23:18,640 --> 01:23:20,720
Speaker 1: that's right. I mean, they hunted, but they're you know,

1525
01:23:20,840 --> 01:23:25,920
Speaker 1: they're not as far as but the average person that

1526
01:23:26,160 --> 01:23:28,720
Speaker 1: is not a hunter doesn't. They don't know the difference, right,

1527
01:23:29,200 --> 01:23:32,240
Speaker 1: or they haven't been educated, or maybe some people do, right,

1528
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:34,240
Speaker 1: But but a lot of people they just see that

1529
01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:37,000
Speaker 1: and they're disgusted by it, and there's a misconception there.

1530
01:23:37,080 --> 01:23:40,920
Speaker 1: So I think that I guess in the end um

1531
01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:45,080
Speaker 1: I would say, don't jump to conclusions or whatever you

1532
01:23:45,120 --> 01:23:47,680
Speaker 1: wanna call it in terms of like what other other

1533
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:50,800
Speaker 1: people perception is of you and what you're doing, because

1534
01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:54,040
Speaker 1: what I have seen, I've got rock climber buddies that

1535
01:23:54,120 --> 01:23:58,920
Speaker 1: are crazy passionate turkey hunters. I've got UH people I

1536
01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:02,679
Speaker 1: know that UH loved hike, but they're also deer owners.

1537
01:24:03,240 --> 01:24:06,839
Speaker 1: And more often than not, especially in someplace like Arkansas,

1538
01:24:08,040 --> 01:24:11,080
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's a heritage here and and and

1539
01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:14,040
Speaker 1: and I think that there's a lot of other towns

1540
01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:17,800
Speaker 1: and small towns around the country where there's a heritage here. Now,

1541
01:24:18,280 --> 01:24:21,400
Speaker 1: obviously you get into more metropolitan areas that starts to

1542
01:24:21,439 --> 01:24:24,280
Speaker 1: fade away. At least that's been by experience, right. You know,

1543
01:24:24,479 --> 01:24:27,880
Speaker 1: you maybe you didn't have that uncle or that your

1544
01:24:27,920 --> 01:24:31,040
Speaker 1: grandpa or your brother whoever that sort of was doing

1545
01:24:31,120 --> 01:24:33,080
Speaker 1: that when you were growing up, and so you don't

1546
01:24:33,120 --> 01:24:36,599
Speaker 1: have any sense of their ethics and um, what their

1547
01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:40,320
Speaker 1: life experiences were and how they handled themselves when it

1548
01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:44,120
Speaker 1: comes to you know, harvesting and game animals. Um. But

1549
01:24:45,040 --> 01:24:47,920
Speaker 1: you know, there's a whole lot more that connects us

1550
01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:51,360
Speaker 1: than separates us. And uh, you know, I guess one

1551
01:24:51,439 --> 01:24:54,640
Speaker 1: thing I'd make kind of a shameless plug for is

1552
01:24:54,680 --> 01:24:59,120
Speaker 1: the b h A, which I'm involved country Owners and Anglers,

1553
01:24:59,520 --> 01:25:01,880
Speaker 1: And that's one of the reasons that I've gravitated to

1554
01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:04,000
Speaker 1: that group is I feel like they're a group that

1555
01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:08,960
Speaker 1: recognizes that, and they recognize that, you know, everybody has

1556
01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:12,080
Speaker 1: a right to kind of recreate, at least within the

1557
01:25:12,160 --> 01:25:16,200
Speaker 1: spectrum of doing it responsibly. Um and as long as

1558
01:25:16,240 --> 01:25:20,800
Speaker 1: you're not damaging the environment or you know, harvesting game

1559
01:25:20,840 --> 01:25:26,240
Speaker 1: animals either believes exactly whatever that looks like. Um, you know,

1560
01:25:26,479 --> 01:25:28,120
Speaker 1: we all kind of have a right to be there.

1561
01:25:28,200 --> 01:25:31,240
Speaker 1: And I'm often surprised. I mean, sure, you got your

1562
01:25:31,280 --> 01:25:33,559
Speaker 1: die hard hunter guys, and all they do is hunting.

1563
01:25:33,600 --> 01:25:36,120
Speaker 1: They don't do anything else. Um, And you have your

1564
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:39,879
Speaker 1: die hard but whether it's road bikers or rock climbers

1565
01:25:39,960 --> 01:25:43,439
Speaker 1: or whatever, but most of us like to do multiple things.

1566
01:25:44,000 --> 01:25:46,920
Speaker 1: And you don't have to get very far into a

1567
01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:50,000
Speaker 1: conversation to realize that we all just want to be

1568
01:25:50,040 --> 01:25:52,200
Speaker 1: outside doing things we love, you know what I mean?

1569
01:25:52,800 --> 01:25:56,800
Speaker 1: And so um, you know, I think a lot of

1570
01:25:56,880 --> 01:26:01,400
Speaker 1: it boils down to perceived identity, like what I see inside,

1571
01:26:01,479 --> 01:26:04,400
Speaker 1: like the hiking, mountaineering, rock climbing world, like what you

1572
01:26:04,600 --> 01:26:06,960
Speaker 1: feel when you go into like a high end outdoor

1573
01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:10,280
Speaker 1: store like Packer is, you feel the sense of like

1574
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:15,960
Speaker 1: a strong identity inside of this thing. Okay, when you

1575
01:26:16,080 --> 01:26:19,360
Speaker 1: go into a hunting store or when you go into

1576
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:24,840
Speaker 1: you know, you feel this identity. And and that's where

1577
01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:28,799
Speaker 1: I think there's a bridge that can be built inside

1578
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:33,040
Speaker 1: the extremes of both of those could be at odds

1579
01:26:33,120 --> 01:26:35,880
Speaker 1: with each other and the struggle of identity because like

1580
01:26:35,960 --> 01:26:40,479
Speaker 1: a like a like a mountaineer typically would be somebody

1581
01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:44,120
Speaker 1: that would be like aware of the environment and wanting

1582
01:26:44,320 --> 01:26:46,599
Speaker 1: like no trace left behind, like a bunch of these

1583
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:51,280
Speaker 1: like great things, and he might perceive his worldview of

1584
01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:54,080
Speaker 1: a hunter might be that that's not what that hunter is.

1585
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:58,120
Speaker 1: That hunter is taking from this. Well, you know, when

1586
01:26:58,200 --> 01:27:01,160
Speaker 1: you when you really get down to the brass tacks

1587
01:27:01,400 --> 01:27:05,040
Speaker 1: and you don't view the extremes of the negative side

1588
01:27:05,080 --> 01:27:07,160
Speaker 1: of hunting, you realize that, hey, wait a minute, there's

1589
01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:11,520
Speaker 1: a a whole bunch of guys that are very conscientious,

1590
01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:16,000
Speaker 1: very conscientious about the environment. And and and then when

1591
01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:18,640
Speaker 1: you understand the North American Mile and Wildlife Conservation and

1592
01:27:18,720 --> 01:27:21,560
Speaker 1: the funding of the Pittman Robertson Act, and how that

1593
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:25,479
Speaker 1: wild places and all this and and wildlife conservation is

1594
01:27:25,520 --> 01:27:29,200
Speaker 1: funded by the dollars of hunting. Then then there is

1595
01:27:29,320 --> 01:27:33,160
Speaker 1: this like super overlap of people that enjoy wild places.

1596
01:27:33,640 --> 01:27:37,160
Speaker 1: And I think that it's, uh, there's probably a lot

1597
01:27:37,280 --> 01:27:41,080
Speaker 1: more room for the mountaineer, hunter, hiker, canoe or just

1598
01:27:41,320 --> 01:27:45,640
Speaker 1: general outdoor person to step into hunting. I mean, like

1599
01:27:46,000 --> 01:27:49,400
Speaker 1: because because and I guess what I want to do

1600
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:52,320
Speaker 1: and what I see you doing is that. And what

1601
01:27:52,439 --> 01:27:55,000
Speaker 1: I see b h A doing better than anybody. Say

1602
01:27:55,080 --> 01:27:58,040
Speaker 1: what you want about b h A, say that they're

1603
01:27:58,040 --> 01:28:04,599
Speaker 1: a liberal, left wing whatever. Man, those guys are bringing

1604
01:28:04,680 --> 01:28:08,240
Speaker 1: in new hunters into our space and that is what

1605
01:28:08,439 --> 01:28:10,880
Speaker 1: we need. And I just opened up a count warrns

1606
01:28:10,960 --> 01:28:13,599
Speaker 1: by saying that maybe we'll directly address that at some point.

1607
01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:15,880
Speaker 1: But man, the guys that I know that are in

1608
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:20,160
Speaker 1: b h A are hardcore hunters. They're good hunters, they're

1609
01:28:20,640 --> 01:28:25,320
Speaker 1: they're they're the real deal. There me share you there, Colby.

1610
01:28:25,760 --> 01:28:28,240
Speaker 1: That's been my experience. And again it's not I'm not

1611
01:28:28,280 --> 01:28:30,000
Speaker 1: gonna sit here and not you know, I know a

1612
01:28:30,080 --> 01:28:33,000
Speaker 1: tiny percentage of them, but you know, I can only

1613
01:28:33,040 --> 01:28:35,679
Speaker 1: speak from what you know what I'd like to see

1614
01:28:35,760 --> 01:28:39,200
Speaker 1: moving forward in terms of like for the health of hunting. Uh.

1615
01:28:39,400 --> 01:28:42,479
Speaker 1: And you know, I guess another component that I've noticed

1616
01:28:43,439 --> 01:28:46,120
Speaker 1: is more and more young people are starting to be

1617
01:28:46,240 --> 01:28:50,320
Speaker 1: aware of where their food comes from, what that looks like.

1618
01:28:50,840 --> 01:28:54,559
Speaker 1: And I know a lot of people that a hunter

1619
01:28:54,720 --> 01:28:57,240
Speaker 1: would very easily call a tree hugger or like a

1620
01:28:57,320 --> 01:29:00,240
Speaker 1: granola kind of person, right, And that's kind to that

1621
01:29:00,400 --> 01:29:04,200
Speaker 1: social odds yea. And but that person, you know that

1622
01:29:04,439 --> 01:29:06,760
Speaker 1: I can think of a handful of acquaintances that I

1623
01:29:06,880 --> 01:29:09,000
Speaker 1: have right now that person. They don't hunt, they don't

1624
01:29:09,040 --> 01:29:12,479
Speaker 1: want to hunt, but they would rather see a person

1625
01:29:13,040 --> 01:29:16,600
Speaker 1: go and ethically harvest a deer or an antelope or

1626
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:19,160
Speaker 1: whatever it may be and feed their family that way,

1627
01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:23,280
Speaker 1: then go to you know, X or Y big supermarket

1628
01:29:23,640 --> 01:29:26,200
Speaker 1: and buy a piece of beef that was came from

1629
01:29:26,240 --> 01:29:29,720
Speaker 1: a stockyard that was pumped full of hormones and all

1630
01:29:29,800 --> 01:29:33,320
Speaker 1: this other stuff. Because they understand that in the big picture,

1631
01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:36,320
Speaker 1: it's better for all of us, it's better for the planet,

1632
01:29:36,920 --> 01:29:39,000
Speaker 1: you know. When it when things happen that way, and

1633
01:29:39,080 --> 01:29:41,800
Speaker 1: it's it's I mean, you can't really argue that that's

1634
01:29:41,840 --> 01:29:44,559
Speaker 1: not a more natural course of action, you know, right,

1635
01:29:45,280 --> 01:29:47,680
Speaker 1: And um, you know, this is one thing like when

1636
01:29:47,760 --> 01:29:49,960
Speaker 1: we dear me to my house, I talked to my

1637
01:29:50,120 --> 01:29:54,120
Speaker 1: kids about where this meat came from. And you know why,

1638
01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:56,519
Speaker 1: you know, we're choosing to eat it. And yes, an

1639
01:29:56,520 --> 01:29:59,840
Speaker 1: animal had to die, but because that animal died, it

1640
01:30:00,120 --> 01:30:02,960
Speaker 1: feeding us and it it's just a big circle, right,

1641
01:30:03,120 --> 01:30:07,360
Speaker 1: it comes back around into itself again, and so um uh,

1642
01:30:07,640 --> 01:30:10,519
Speaker 1: you know, I can only have just so far off

1643
01:30:10,520 --> 01:30:13,800
Speaker 1: a reach, and for me, my kids is kind of

1644
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:16,800
Speaker 1: where I start that at. But you know, but even

1645
01:30:16,880 --> 01:30:20,360
Speaker 1: with friends and other folks, you know, I've been really

1646
01:30:20,439 --> 01:30:24,160
Speaker 1: pleased to see a number of people that have I've

1647
01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:26,880
Speaker 1: reached through the archery side of things that have been like,

1648
01:30:27,439 --> 01:30:29,240
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm not sure if I want to

1649
01:30:29,320 --> 01:30:31,600
Speaker 1: hump at the shooting. The boat looks pretty cool, but

1650
01:30:31,760 --> 01:30:34,920
Speaker 1: it's not very far in to shoot that. It's like, well,

1651
01:30:35,120 --> 01:30:37,240
Speaker 1: so tell me about this deer hunting, you know what

1652
01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:39,160
Speaker 1: I mean. That's that's what we've got to do. We've

1653
01:30:39,200 --> 01:30:42,000
Speaker 1: got to find a way to build cultural bridges. And

1654
01:30:42,080 --> 01:30:45,360
Speaker 1: it's it's it's human to human interaction. It's it's finding

1655
01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:49,120
Speaker 1: a way to be who we are but not be

1656
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:54,080
Speaker 1: stiff arm and some group that ought to be on

1657
01:30:54,200 --> 01:30:58,320
Speaker 1: our side, and I think we can do that through um.

1658
01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:02,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, we We've just we've we've

1659
01:31:02,439 --> 01:31:05,000
Speaker 1: got to be we've got to be better at at

1660
01:31:05,040 --> 01:31:09,040
Speaker 1: our narrative. It's crazy, and I I feel like I

1661
01:31:09,160 --> 01:31:11,280
Speaker 1: say this a lot for two people that are close

1662
01:31:11,360 --> 01:31:14,320
Speaker 1: to me, and it sounds oversimplified, but I don't know

1663
01:31:14,479 --> 01:31:17,800
Speaker 1: how else to say it. And literally, it just comes

1664
01:31:17,880 --> 01:31:22,040
Speaker 1: down to like a simple definition of respect, and respect

1665
01:31:22,120 --> 01:31:25,639
Speaker 1: just means like being aware and and to some degree

1666
01:31:25,720 --> 01:31:29,240
Speaker 1: kind of honoring someone else's traditions and you know what

1667
01:31:29,439 --> 01:31:33,920
Speaker 1: their life is about and simply not immediately assuming that

1668
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:36,080
Speaker 1: you're not going to agree with that person because they

1669
01:31:36,120 --> 01:31:40,520
Speaker 1: don't do the things that you do right, And so oftentimes,

1670
01:31:40,640 --> 01:31:43,799
Speaker 1: I mean, it's time consuming to have a conversation, especially

1671
01:31:43,880 --> 01:31:47,200
Speaker 1: if you do it on uh, you know, with an individual.

1672
01:31:48,320 --> 01:31:51,400
Speaker 1: But that's the negative side to all of this social

1673
01:31:51,520 --> 01:31:54,679
Speaker 1: media and internet stuff that we've got, because it's created

1674
01:31:54,760 --> 01:31:57,920
Speaker 1: the keyboard warrior, right, it's real easy to take cheap

1675
01:31:58,000 --> 01:32:00,120
Speaker 1: shots at people when you're sitting in your of in

1676
01:32:00,120 --> 01:32:03,960
Speaker 1: the room behind your computer screen. And it drives me crazy,

1677
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:06,400
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Because and there's plenty of

1678
01:32:06,479 --> 01:32:09,080
Speaker 1: folks out there that could probably care less about what

1679
01:32:09,200 --> 01:32:11,639
Speaker 1: you're actually talking about, but they just jump in there

1680
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:14,120
Speaker 1: and make a negative comments, stir the pot up, and

1681
01:32:14,160 --> 01:32:16,960
Speaker 1: then they get out right and then it starts to

1682
01:32:17,080 --> 01:32:22,439
Speaker 1: erode from there. Um, So it's not convenient and it

1683
01:32:22,600 --> 01:32:27,960
Speaker 1: isn't easy, but I guess, you know, to the limit

1684
01:32:28,040 --> 01:32:32,519
Speaker 1: of my influence as an individual, I would just tell people, like,

1685
01:32:32,720 --> 01:32:36,360
Speaker 1: before you make your initial assessment on a person for

1686
01:32:36,479 --> 01:32:39,000
Speaker 1: something they said or something they did, or they don't

1687
01:32:39,040 --> 01:32:42,080
Speaker 1: look like you or whatever, just like maybe take a

1688
01:32:42,200 --> 01:32:45,600
Speaker 1: second to consider, you know, what their angle was and

1689
01:32:46,439 --> 01:32:48,800
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. And you know, again, I

1690
01:32:48,920 --> 01:32:51,479
Speaker 1: really do think that when people like actually Stole, who

1691
01:32:51,520 --> 01:32:53,880
Speaker 1: were all just humans. We all need things stuff, you know,

1692
01:32:54,000 --> 01:32:55,920
Speaker 1: and your of course you're always gonna have French people

1693
01:32:55,960 --> 01:32:58,760
Speaker 1: that are morons. You know, we all know that you're

1694
01:32:58,760 --> 01:33:01,200
Speaker 1: always gonna have there. The world is going to calculate

1695
01:33:01,240 --> 01:33:03,320
Speaker 1: for the more you. I mean, they're those people are

1696
01:33:03,360 --> 01:33:05,519
Speaker 1: out there, and I'm not saying that there aren't because

1697
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:08,000
Speaker 1: some people aren't talk to people just flat wrong. But um,

1698
01:33:08,080 --> 01:33:11,960
Speaker 1: at the same time, most of skin fine common ground

1699
01:33:12,479 --> 01:33:14,360
Speaker 1: and I think that's a skill that we have gotten

1700
01:33:14,400 --> 01:33:16,720
Speaker 1: away from. Here's a phrase that I've been here and

1701
01:33:16,800 --> 01:33:20,760
Speaker 1: come up in a couple of often. Uh, And I

1702
01:33:20,800 --> 01:33:23,840
Speaker 1: think it's a term that sociologists would use. Maybe it's

1703
01:33:23,880 --> 01:33:28,520
Speaker 1: kind of a not slang, but but tribalism, like tribalism

1704
01:33:28,760 --> 01:33:31,800
Speaker 1: could be described, I mean, we we would find it

1705
01:33:31,880 --> 01:33:35,160
Speaker 1: in modern society. And basically my wife described this to

1706
01:33:35,200 --> 01:33:38,320
Speaker 1: me the other day. Tribalism is a mentality that says

1707
01:33:38,439 --> 01:33:42,000
Speaker 1: there's us and then there's them. Yeah, it's that simple.

1708
01:33:42,920 --> 01:33:48,000
Speaker 1: And and the politically charged environment that we live in

1709
01:33:49,120 --> 01:33:54,680
Speaker 1: is pushing people deeper and deeper into tribalism. And tribalism

1710
01:33:55,479 --> 01:33:58,080
Speaker 1: is in the phrase tribalism has nothing to do with

1711
01:33:58,240 --> 01:34:01,040
Speaker 1: like native cultures like that. When we when we hear

1712
01:34:01,080 --> 01:34:03,200
Speaker 1: that word sometimes we like go back in history. That's

1713
01:34:03,240 --> 01:34:05,920
Speaker 1: not what we're talking about. We're talking about like sociological

1714
01:34:06,400 --> 01:34:10,640
Speaker 1: or like just like default ways that humans segregate themselves,

1715
01:34:11,320 --> 01:34:13,040
Speaker 1: you know. And uh, I mean it could be in

1716
01:34:13,080 --> 01:34:15,400
Speaker 1: a room of ten people and you leave them in

1717
01:34:15,400 --> 01:34:18,639
Speaker 1: there for two hours and you'll find that there's groups

1718
01:34:18,720 --> 01:34:22,679
Speaker 1: that begin to form and like um, and so generally,

1719
01:34:22,880 --> 01:34:28,200
Speaker 1: when it comes to solving problems, tribalism is negative and

1720
01:34:28,320 --> 01:34:29,960
Speaker 1: so like I look at it like that, and man,

1721
01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:33,360
Speaker 1: I'm guilty. I mean, like thinking about that the outdoor

1722
01:34:33,880 --> 01:34:35,800
Speaker 1: like the you know, the kind of like thinking about

1723
01:34:35,880 --> 01:34:39,880
Speaker 1: the the outdoor guy. You know, it's like, I think

1724
01:34:40,000 --> 01:34:43,120
Speaker 1: he's different than me. He goes to the mountains, but

1725
01:34:43,200 --> 01:34:45,640
Speaker 1: he's different than me. He probably doesn't understand me. He

1726
01:34:45,760 --> 01:34:48,479
Speaker 1: probably is judging me because I'm a hunter. He probably

1727
01:34:49,080 --> 01:34:52,440
Speaker 1: thinks I'm a barbarians, like all these things like reinforce

1728
01:34:52,600 --> 01:34:55,639
Speaker 1: my bias. And really, when I met you, and I see,

1729
01:34:55,680 --> 01:34:57,599
Speaker 1: I didn't know, I mean even up until a month ago,

1730
01:34:57,720 --> 01:35:01,120
Speaker 1: I didn't know that you were involved with Packrad and

1731
01:35:02,120 --> 01:35:05,760
Speaker 1: who wouldn't. I mean, Packrad is like the place for mountaineering.

1732
01:35:05,880 --> 01:35:08,800
Speaker 1: Client is a beautiful, awesome store, and so like it's

1733
01:35:08,880 --> 01:35:14,000
Speaker 1: kind of like I've known that for I've been like

1734
01:35:14,320 --> 01:35:17,080
Speaker 1: I would have been like, man, Packard is really not

1735
01:35:17,200 --> 01:35:22,320
Speaker 1: my mind. Big people feel that way. Yeah, And then

1736
01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:24,760
Speaker 1: I meet you and I'm like, oh, man, here's this

1737
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:30,280
Speaker 1: guy who is deep inside of all this adventure sports

1738
01:35:30,320 --> 01:35:33,800
Speaker 1: and stuff. And I thought those people, I mean, I'm

1739
01:35:33,840 --> 01:35:36,559
Speaker 1: I'm just confessing. I would have thought that those people

1740
01:35:36,640 --> 01:35:39,320
Speaker 1: would not have tipped their hat to the hunting world.

1741
01:35:39,720 --> 01:35:44,400
Speaker 1: And I think it's I think it's uh, it's both

1742
01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:47,479
Speaker 1: of us kind of dropping dropping that tribalism in a

1743
01:35:47,560 --> 01:35:50,080
Speaker 1: way in finding ways to be inclusive. And that's what

1744
01:35:50,760 --> 01:35:56,320
Speaker 1: you know. Uh yeah, I think, and I mean quite frankly,

1745
01:35:56,360 --> 01:35:59,280
Speaker 1: I don't see a way around solving a lot of

1746
01:35:59,360 --> 01:36:01,800
Speaker 1: modern problems we have in life unless we look at

1747
01:36:01,840 --> 01:36:04,160
Speaker 1: it that way. We have to learn how to have

1748
01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:07,719
Speaker 1: conversations we thought with each other and not get worked

1749
01:36:07,800 --> 01:36:11,400
Speaker 1: up about it like that's so much. Usually it's not

1750
01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:14,800
Speaker 1: the other guy, it's it's you that's the problem. When

1751
01:36:14,840 --> 01:36:19,000
Speaker 1: I was like me thinking about like not being and

1752
01:36:19,040 --> 01:36:22,640
Speaker 1: when I say not, I mean like like like I

1753
01:36:22,800 --> 01:36:26,240
Speaker 1: might have felt uncomfortable, like whearing, like uh if I

1754
01:36:26,360 --> 01:36:28,920
Speaker 1: was dec you got a meat eat or shirt on,

1755
01:36:29,280 --> 01:36:33,800
Speaker 1: you know, or whatever you know. But the usually the

1756
01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:37,080
Speaker 1: problems with you When I say you, I'm pointing to myself,

1757
01:36:37,600 --> 01:36:42,560
Speaker 1: Like so when I met you, even the preconceived ideas

1758
01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:44,559
Speaker 1: that you know, probably the people of this place aren't

1759
01:36:44,640 --> 01:36:48,760
Speaker 1: cool with hunting, that was my problem actually yea, because

1760
01:36:48,800 --> 01:36:51,120
Speaker 1: it wasn't true. Well, and I'm I'm as guilty as

1761
01:36:51,120 --> 01:36:53,679
Speaker 1: anybody I've been in the exact sames you know, scenario

1762
01:36:53,880 --> 01:36:57,040
Speaker 1: and other, you know, aspects of things that I've gotten

1763
01:36:57,080 --> 01:36:59,880
Speaker 1: into that I wasn't as familiar with. And I was like, oh,

1764
01:37:00,080 --> 01:37:03,120
Speaker 1: these you know, this is kind of a different group

1765
01:37:03,160 --> 01:37:05,360
Speaker 1: of people that I'm used to hanging around. And right

1766
01:37:05,400 --> 01:37:07,640
Speaker 1: away it's like you put your fence up right and

1767
01:37:07,720 --> 01:37:10,439
Speaker 1: you put your guard up a little bit. Um, maybe

1768
01:37:10,640 --> 01:37:14,240
Speaker 1: maybe before you really should. Um. But you know, again,

1769
01:37:14,320 --> 01:37:17,160
Speaker 1: we're all a product of our life experiences and we're

1770
01:37:17,320 --> 01:37:19,920
Speaker 1: used to being in, for lack of a better term,

1771
01:37:20,040 --> 01:37:21,599
Speaker 1: kind of a little bit of a tribe. We're used

1772
01:37:21,600 --> 01:37:23,760
Speaker 1: to being around a certain type of a group of

1773
01:37:23,840 --> 01:37:27,600
Speaker 1: people that often have a particular set of values that

1774
01:37:27,720 --> 01:37:30,160
Speaker 1: you identify with for easily. And as soon as you

1775
01:37:30,320 --> 01:37:34,200
Speaker 1: cross over into another you know, tribe or you know

1776
01:37:34,280 --> 01:37:36,439
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call that, um, some of those

1777
01:37:36,479 --> 01:37:39,200
Speaker 1: things start to come into question. But I would say

1778
01:37:39,360 --> 01:37:44,360
Speaker 1: sometimes that happens needlessly um and uh. And and that's

1779
01:37:44,400 --> 01:37:45,880
Speaker 1: not to say it isn't gonna happen, because it will.

1780
01:37:45,960 --> 01:37:52,280
Speaker 1: You're gonna come to issues with people, UM. But uh.

1781
01:37:53,240 --> 01:37:54,800
Speaker 1: I don't know if we all just kind of take

1782
01:37:54,840 --> 01:37:56,880
Speaker 1: step back sometimes and look at thanks for what they are.

1783
01:37:56,960 --> 01:37:58,479
Speaker 1: I think we make a lot of bigger deal out

1784
01:37:58,520 --> 01:38:00,800
Speaker 1: of things than we should. Well, that truth is is

1785
01:38:00,880 --> 01:38:06,720
Speaker 1: that you know, there's a there's a methodology or a

1786
01:38:06,880 --> 01:38:11,839
Speaker 1: philosophy for the preservation of something where people would retreat

1787
01:38:11,920 --> 01:38:15,240
Speaker 1: to their fortresses. You know, I've heard that phrase, you know,

1788
01:38:15,439 --> 01:38:19,200
Speaker 1: into for for modern hunters to retreat to the fortress,

1789
01:38:19,520 --> 01:38:21,760
Speaker 1: which to me, I mean that would be like my

1790
01:38:22,000 --> 01:38:27,200
Speaker 1: native thing, my like my native like frequency would be like, oh,

1791
01:38:27,320 --> 01:38:31,400
Speaker 1: we gotta we gotta stick even further to the things

1792
01:38:31,520 --> 01:38:37,360
Speaker 1: that our fathers did. Actually, the way to save hunting,

1793
01:38:37,479 --> 01:38:40,640
Speaker 1: which our biggest threat to our way of life and

1794
01:38:40,680 --> 01:38:42,200
Speaker 1: the thing that we love and the wild life that

1795
01:38:42,280 --> 01:38:44,200
Speaker 1: we love in the wild places that we love, is

1796
01:38:44,280 --> 01:38:48,400
Speaker 1: recruitment of new people and I mean in it and

1797
01:38:48,640 --> 01:38:51,679
Speaker 1: and and so we have to find ways to keep

1798
01:38:51,760 --> 01:38:54,680
Speaker 1: the gate open. It's funny you say that because I

1799
01:38:54,800 --> 01:38:57,120
Speaker 1: think on one of your recent podcasts, I listened to

1800
01:38:57,600 --> 01:39:00,640
Speaker 1: you using the term guard to guard the game. But

1801
01:39:01,360 --> 01:39:03,920
Speaker 1: I think it's it's interesting that you you just kind

1802
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:07,040
Speaker 1: of flipped that, right. You also maybe guard the gate

1803
01:39:07,160 --> 01:39:09,200
Speaker 1: like that's one term, but I think mine to the

1804
01:39:09,280 --> 01:39:12,080
Speaker 1: gate is maybe even sometimes a better way to think

1805
01:39:12,120 --> 01:39:14,160
Speaker 1: about it, because it's not like when you say guard

1806
01:39:14,240 --> 01:39:16,360
Speaker 1: the gate you want to protect it, and I think

1807
01:39:16,439 --> 01:39:18,720
Speaker 1: I believe that there's a reason to protect what it

1808
01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:21,000
Speaker 1: is that you love. But you don't want to guard

1809
01:39:21,040 --> 01:39:23,280
Speaker 1: the gate to the extent that you don't let anyone

1810
01:39:23,320 --> 01:39:26,840
Speaker 1: else in, because at that point you kind of doom

1811
01:39:26,880 --> 01:39:30,559
Speaker 1: in yourself, right, um, because I know you've you've got

1812
01:39:30,640 --> 01:39:33,360
Speaker 1: that picture back here of that hunting scene and I've

1813
01:39:33,439 --> 01:39:35,160
Speaker 1: heard that one where you were talking about that and

1814
01:39:35,240 --> 01:39:38,000
Speaker 1: that's gone now, right, And if all we do is

1815
01:39:38,040 --> 01:39:41,120
Speaker 1: guard the gate, at some point down the road, our

1816
01:39:41,120 --> 01:39:43,160
Speaker 1: stuff is gonna be done too. Well. We have to

1817
01:39:43,400 --> 01:39:48,080
Speaker 1: you know, we have to have at least enough wherewithal

1818
01:39:48,280 --> 01:39:50,760
Speaker 1: and fullward thinking that you know, it's like, yeah, we're

1819
01:39:50,760 --> 01:39:53,040
Speaker 1: gonna be a little bit careful about things, but we

1820
01:39:53,120 --> 01:39:56,479
Speaker 1: gotta let some people into. Yeah, yeah, And I gotta

1821
01:39:56,560 --> 01:39:59,680
Speaker 1: clarify that guard the gate metaphor you know that to me,

1822
01:40:00,240 --> 01:40:02,240
Speaker 1: like what we're talking about to me is guarding the

1823
01:40:02,320 --> 01:40:06,519
Speaker 1: gate like that, you know, just the semantics because we

1824
01:40:06,600 --> 01:40:08,640
Speaker 1: have to use that so much. Like to me, the

1825
01:40:08,920 --> 01:40:12,479
Speaker 1: guard the gate idea is is building a strong narrative,

1826
01:40:12,560 --> 01:40:16,960
Speaker 1: building a strong culture, and and and and particularly that

1827
01:40:17,280 --> 01:40:21,960
Speaker 1: phrase we use and we're talking about like adamant, intentional

1828
01:40:22,160 --> 01:40:25,240
Speaker 1: anti hunting sentiment that is designed to I was looking

1829
01:40:25,320 --> 01:40:29,040
Speaker 1: at the Humane Society of America website today actually, and

1830
01:40:29,160 --> 01:40:32,439
Speaker 1: you know, one of their like six mission statements is,

1831
01:40:32,760 --> 01:40:36,320
Speaker 1: you know, ending hunting, and they use the term trophy hunting,

1832
01:40:36,760 --> 01:40:39,720
Speaker 1: which obviously that's a that is a that is an

1833
01:40:39,800 --> 01:40:44,559
Speaker 1: inflammatory phrase that they used to try to portray us

1834
01:40:44,560 --> 01:40:47,760
Speaker 1: in a certain way, you know whatever. But point being,

1835
01:40:48,520 --> 01:40:51,240
Speaker 1: that's to me, to me, this is you know, gardens,

1836
01:40:51,520 --> 01:40:56,200
Speaker 1: but not not to get but we we have to

1837
01:40:56,560 --> 01:40:59,960
Speaker 1: we have to find ways to be inclusive, inclusive, inclusive,

1838
01:41:00,000 --> 01:41:04,640
Speaker 1: include and and and ultimately bring people into you know,

1839
01:41:04,760 --> 01:41:07,160
Speaker 1: it's not like we're just wanting to preserve our our

1840
01:41:08,000 --> 01:41:10,080
Speaker 1: the stuff we get to do that we like, but man,

1841
01:41:11,000 --> 01:41:15,759
Speaker 1: the outdoor space, clean, healthy meat, the things that hunting

1842
01:41:15,840 --> 01:41:17,400
Speaker 1: has done for me, it's something that I would like

1843
01:41:17,520 --> 01:41:20,799
Speaker 1: to share with people absolutely. And you know there's always

1844
01:41:20,880 --> 01:41:23,519
Speaker 1: by products. If just maybe you're not into bird watching,

1845
01:41:24,120 --> 01:41:27,400
Speaker 1: but by taking steps towards conservation and whatever it is

1846
01:41:27,479 --> 01:41:29,760
Speaker 1: you're into, it makes the area better for those people

1847
01:41:29,800 --> 01:41:32,080
Speaker 1: that are into bird watching, right or whatever. So there's

1848
01:41:32,120 --> 01:41:35,040
Speaker 1: so many ways the things that these things, you know,

1849
01:41:35,160 --> 01:41:37,840
Speaker 1: can cross over. And I just in my gut, I've

1850
01:41:37,840 --> 01:41:39,960
Speaker 1: always believed that, you know, we have a whole lot

1851
01:41:40,080 --> 01:41:41,880
Speaker 1: more to gain by working together and a whole lot

1852
01:41:41,960 --> 01:41:45,400
Speaker 1: to lose if we don't um. And so you know,

1853
01:41:45,800 --> 01:41:47,880
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that uh, you know, I'm

1854
01:41:47,920 --> 01:41:51,000
Speaker 1: involved with Artistel b h A because you know, no

1855
01:41:51,320 --> 01:41:53,960
Speaker 1: organization is perfect. You know, they're not going to have

1856
01:41:54,120 --> 01:41:57,080
Speaker 1: all the answers, and they're gonna do things that you know,

1857
01:41:57,240 --> 01:42:02,360
Speaker 1: not everybody agrees with. But I think in they're they're

1858
01:42:02,360 --> 01:42:04,479
Speaker 1: trying to put the best foot forward, you know, trying

1859
01:42:04,520 --> 01:42:08,000
Speaker 1: to do it to protect first and foremost, protect the

1860
01:42:08,120 --> 01:42:11,800
Speaker 1: resources of hunters and anglers. But they're trying to do

1861
01:42:11,960 --> 01:42:14,160
Speaker 1: it in such a way, at least from my perspective,

1862
01:42:14,160 --> 01:42:16,400
Speaker 1: they're trying to do it in a way that is

1863
01:42:16,479 --> 01:42:20,240
Speaker 1: not off putting to other people in the outdoor community,

1864
01:42:20,640 --> 01:42:23,200
Speaker 1: you know, in the outdoor industry, and I kind of

1865
01:42:23,280 --> 01:42:25,479
Speaker 1: don't see another way forward, you know, man, I was

1866
01:42:25,560 --> 01:42:27,519
Speaker 1: at the b h A Rendezvous a couple of years

1867
01:42:27,520 --> 01:42:33,479
Speaker 1: ago when Ivan Schevard how you say his name? He

1868
01:42:33,680 --> 01:42:37,559
Speaker 1: spoke and Uh at the b h A Rendevo owner

1869
01:42:37,640 --> 01:42:40,880
Speaker 1: of and founder of Patagonia, eighty year old man um

1870
01:42:41,720 --> 01:42:47,000
Speaker 1: Man I thought that was awesome, incredible that this guy that,

1871
01:42:47,400 --> 01:42:51,240
Speaker 1: I mean a billionaire number one uh and out that

1872
01:42:51,320 --> 01:42:53,360
Speaker 1: that gives him value. He's he seems to me to

1873
01:42:53,400 --> 01:43:00,880
Speaker 1: be a pretty incredible man. Uh, massive proponent of wild places. Um.

1874
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:05,200
Speaker 1: And we'll tip his hat to hunting. I mean, he

1875
01:43:05,280 --> 01:43:08,759
Speaker 1: was in a room with Fred bad to the bone

1876
01:43:08,880 --> 01:43:12,679
Speaker 1: Western Hunters and he's setting up there telling stories about

1877
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:15,000
Speaker 1: pulling over to throw a road kill deer in the

1878
01:43:15,040 --> 01:43:18,000
Speaker 1: back of his truck to take it home and eat it. Um.

1879
01:43:19,120 --> 01:43:24,880
Speaker 1: And I had people message me and ridicule me because

1880
01:43:24,920 --> 01:43:27,120
Speaker 1: I put something up that had his name on it.

1881
01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:29,880
Speaker 1: And this guy, this one guy said, did you know

1882
01:43:30,040 --> 01:43:33,880
Speaker 1: that Ivan Schevard is against hunting brown bears and the

1883
01:43:34,120 --> 01:43:37,040
Speaker 1: Yellowstone ecosystem or you know, in the Greater Yellowstone area?

1884
01:43:38,120 --> 01:43:40,080
Speaker 1: And at the time I actually did, and I said no,

1885
01:43:40,240 --> 01:43:42,439
Speaker 1: I didn't. And I was like, I don't know why

1886
01:43:42,560 --> 01:43:46,840
Speaker 1: that has any impact on me, saying that what just

1887
01:43:47,040 --> 01:43:50,680
Speaker 1: happened with this guy coming and tipping his hat to

1888
01:43:50,800 --> 01:43:54,519
Speaker 1: us and like and and there that story right there,

1889
01:43:54,680 --> 01:43:59,200
Speaker 1: to me describes kind of again this polarization. Like basically

1890
01:43:59,280 --> 01:44:01,240
Speaker 1: this guy was saying, is if you don't agree with

1891
01:44:01,320 --> 01:44:04,840
Speaker 1: me and we can't be friends. Well, man, I won't

1892
01:44:04,920 --> 01:44:09,160
Speaker 1: have a friend on the planet and in in to

1893
01:44:09,280 --> 01:44:14,400
Speaker 1: me for something. Somebody from Patagonia tipping their hat to

1894
01:44:14,520 --> 01:44:17,160
Speaker 1: the hunting world, which they're not gaining anything from that.

1895
01:44:17,520 --> 01:44:21,040
Speaker 1: They've got a they've got such a massive market, like

1896
01:44:21,160 --> 01:44:23,880
Speaker 1: the little market of hunters that they could gain from,

1897
01:44:24,000 --> 01:44:26,240
Speaker 1: you know. And we're not going to buy padagon your

1898
01:44:26,240 --> 01:44:29,000
Speaker 1: clothing anyway. We're wearing a lot of other stuff. Like

1899
01:44:30,000 --> 01:44:32,240
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is he's got a lot more to

1900
01:44:32,320 --> 01:44:35,120
Speaker 1: lose than he does to gain. We've got a massive

1901
01:44:35,439 --> 01:44:37,960
Speaker 1: amount that we could gain from and I'm not saying

1902
01:44:38,040 --> 01:44:39,880
Speaker 1: And what that guy is saying is that we would

1903
01:44:39,880 --> 01:44:43,840
Speaker 1: be lower in our standards to let some of these

1904
01:44:43,920 --> 01:44:47,240
Speaker 1: people into our space. To me, that's retreating to the fortress.

1905
01:44:47,479 --> 01:44:50,840
Speaker 1: Do you see what I'm saying? Like, basically, man, we

1906
01:44:50,960 --> 01:44:53,479
Speaker 1: just can't do it. And I I am not happy

1907
01:44:53,600 --> 01:44:57,360
Speaker 1: that he is. I mean, I am for the science

1908
01:44:57,439 --> 01:45:00,680
Speaker 1: based wildlife management practices in a all, I mean, we

1909
01:45:00,680 --> 01:45:02,840
Speaker 1: could get into all the details. It's Clay who can

1910
01:45:02,920 --> 01:45:06,040
Speaker 1: four hunting brown bears, grizzly bears and the Greater Yellows

1911
01:45:06,120 --> 01:45:10,120
Speaker 1: one ecosystem under a quota and science bace management. Absolutely,

1912
01:45:11,720 --> 01:45:17,160
Speaker 1: am I offended and unwilling to work with Ivan Snard

1913
01:45:17,600 --> 01:45:21,640
Speaker 1: because he thinks that you're crazy? Well, and then the

1914
01:45:21,720 --> 01:45:27,440
Speaker 1: other thing is is like who can possibly be educated

1915
01:45:27,520 --> 01:45:31,880
Speaker 1: and informed enough to understand the science behind all these

1916
01:45:31,960 --> 01:45:34,599
Speaker 1: different issues? Right? And at the end of the day,

1917
01:45:34,640 --> 01:45:37,599
Speaker 1: we're all humans. I've said plenty of things in my life,

1918
01:45:37,640 --> 01:45:39,639
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna say plenty of things that I look

1919
01:45:39,680 --> 01:45:41,280
Speaker 1: back on and be like, you know what, I was wrong?

1920
01:45:42,080 --> 01:45:44,839
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Um, And I think anybody

1921
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:47,400
Speaker 1: that thinks otherwise just kidding herselves. I mean, we're all

1922
01:45:47,479 --> 01:45:50,240
Speaker 1: just humans. We make mistakes, and we can change our mind.

1923
01:45:50,360 --> 01:45:53,600
Speaker 1: It's okay, you know. And it's just such a in

1924
01:45:53,680 --> 01:45:58,360
Speaker 1: the environment that that I see us in and not

1925
01:45:58,520 --> 01:46:00,479
Speaker 1: just our own country but around the world old right now,

1926
01:46:00,520 --> 01:46:02,759
Speaker 1: it's just like it just seems like no one's willing

1927
01:46:02,800 --> 01:46:05,960
Speaker 1: to go and change their mind. It's okay, It's okay

1928
01:46:06,040 --> 01:46:10,080
Speaker 1: to have a change in perspective. Um, you know, It's

1929
01:46:11,080 --> 01:46:13,920
Speaker 1: I don't know why that's so scary to some people,

1930
01:46:14,320 --> 01:46:15,880
Speaker 1: you know. And I guess maybe I've made a who

1931
01:46:15,880 --> 01:46:19,760
Speaker 1: lot more mistakes in my lifetime a lot of other

1932
01:46:19,840 --> 01:46:22,479
Speaker 1: people have. I don't know, and maybe you're still alive

1933
01:46:23,920 --> 01:46:26,680
Speaker 1: too many mistakes, but you know, I just think that

1934
01:46:26,840 --> 01:46:29,519
Speaker 1: sometimes again it's just you know, calm down a little bit,

1935
01:46:29,640 --> 01:46:31,960
Speaker 1: take step back, and yeah it's gonna be okay. You know,

1936
01:46:32,120 --> 01:46:34,559
Speaker 1: let's let's work together instead of trying to put each

1937
01:46:34,560 --> 01:46:39,519
Speaker 1: other down. Yeah. So well, man, I I admire what

1938
01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:42,960
Speaker 1: you're doing and the voice that that you have inside,

1939
01:46:43,040 --> 01:46:46,360
Speaker 1: even just locally in what you're doing. Uh. And I mean,

1940
01:46:46,439 --> 01:46:49,720
Speaker 1: I think you're a great spokesman for for hunting to

1941
01:46:49,840 --> 01:46:53,439
Speaker 1: a bunch of people that probably wouldn't listen to or

1942
01:46:53,520 --> 01:46:56,600
Speaker 1: have a reason to listen to somebody like me or

1943
01:46:56,680 --> 01:47:03,200
Speaker 1: Kolbe uh, mainly because Kobe is from Texas. But sorry,

1944
01:47:08,120 --> 01:47:15,120
Speaker 1: that's now. I man, I love your story. Uh, respect

1945
01:47:15,200 --> 01:47:20,240
Speaker 1: what you're doing and um um yeah, well likewise, man, uh,

1946
01:47:20,560 --> 01:47:23,679
Speaker 1: you know, the I'm just was pleased to be asked

1947
01:47:23,720 --> 01:47:25,920
Speaker 1: to do this today. The content you've been putting out

1948
01:47:26,240 --> 01:47:29,000
Speaker 1: for a while now has been very high quality, and uh,

1949
01:47:29,160 --> 01:47:31,479
Speaker 1: to you know, have an opportunity to come and sort

1950
01:47:31,520 --> 01:47:33,479
Speaker 1: of be a part of that message that you've been

1951
01:47:33,600 --> 01:47:35,280
Speaker 1: you know, doing your best put out there. It was

1952
01:47:35,600 --> 01:47:39,080
Speaker 1: a great opportunity and I appreciate it. Um, you know,

1953
01:47:40,560 --> 01:47:43,560
Speaker 1: I guess you know, we all have a role to

1954
01:47:43,640 --> 01:47:46,760
Speaker 1: play and you can step back and you know, living

1955
01:47:46,840 --> 01:47:49,960
Speaker 1: your own bubble and and uh, you know, just do

1956
01:47:50,160 --> 01:47:52,560
Speaker 1: you And that's fine if that's what you want to do.

1957
01:47:52,720 --> 01:47:55,720
Speaker 1: And you know, but UM, I don't know. I look

1958
01:47:55,760 --> 01:47:57,960
Speaker 1: at my kids and I see the world we're living in,

1959
01:47:58,120 --> 01:48:00,800
Speaker 1: and I sure do you feel like we could do

1960
01:48:00,920 --> 01:48:04,160
Speaker 1: better sometimes then we're doing, or at least maybe make

1961
01:48:04,240 --> 01:48:07,400
Speaker 1: some changes to put ourselves and maybe a more favorable

1962
01:48:07,560 --> 01:48:09,600
Speaker 1: trajectory for the young people that are coming up in

1963
01:48:09,640 --> 01:48:12,680
Speaker 1: the world right now. And UM, you know, I'm just

1964
01:48:12,800 --> 01:48:15,439
Speaker 1: a guy, but I want to do what I can

1965
01:48:15,520 --> 01:48:20,120
Speaker 1: to trying to help make a difference. So right on, um,

1966
01:48:20,200 --> 01:48:23,479
Speaker 1: where can people find Yeah? So, um, of course you

1967
01:48:23,560 --> 01:48:27,400
Speaker 1: mentioned already, I'm a part owner and officially my title

1968
01:48:27,479 --> 01:48:30,040
Speaker 1: at Packard is the the equipment buyers, so all the

1969
01:48:30,120 --> 01:48:32,040
Speaker 1: gear and that stuff in the store. That's where of

1970
01:48:32,120 --> 01:48:35,040
Speaker 1: my main responsibility. But I teach classes there as well,

1971
01:48:35,120 --> 01:48:38,840
Speaker 1: and they're you know, various types of wilderness skills. Of course,

1972
01:48:38,880 --> 01:48:40,880
Speaker 1: a lot of that got put on hold due to COVID,

1973
01:48:40,960 --> 01:48:45,439
Speaker 1: but you can, um looks hip at packardoc dot com. Um.

1974
01:48:45,520 --> 01:48:48,040
Speaker 1: But the place I spend most of my time is

1975
01:48:48,200 --> 01:48:51,240
Speaker 1: on Instagram and um, you know, kind of show people

1976
01:48:51,280 --> 01:48:55,080
Speaker 1: what I'm into. And uh you can literally just Rick Spicer.

1977
01:48:55,720 --> 01:48:59,920
Speaker 1: Uh most of that is um photography for because I

1978
01:49:00,280 --> 01:49:03,760
Speaker 1: am amateur photographer. I just love taking photographs on trips. Um.

1979
01:49:03,880 --> 01:49:06,519
Speaker 1: So most of that stuff is just like, uh, kind

1980
01:49:06,560 --> 01:49:10,000
Speaker 1: of nature photography type of stuff. But pack rat bushcraft

1981
01:49:10,439 --> 01:49:16,040
Speaker 1: on Instagram, that's them. That's the main one that most

1982
01:49:16,080 --> 01:49:19,320
Speaker 1: people know me from. And um, that's where I'm just

1983
01:49:19,520 --> 01:49:22,719
Speaker 1: kind of kind of spend you know, my dirt time

1984
01:49:22,800 --> 01:49:26,280
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, whatever it is I'm into, whether

1985
01:49:26,360 --> 01:49:28,200
Speaker 1: it's you know, building a bow or some arrows or

1986
01:49:28,600 --> 01:49:31,799
Speaker 1: doing friction fire, you know what, who knows, hunting, whatever

1987
01:49:31,840 --> 01:49:35,679
Speaker 1: it is. Um, so putting stuff out there. But Colvid,

1988
01:49:35,720 --> 01:49:38,800
Speaker 1: do you have any questions for I'm sure I do.

1989
01:49:39,120 --> 01:49:41,400
Speaker 1: I got caught up in the conversation of just listening

1990
01:49:41,520 --> 01:49:44,200
Speaker 1: but always heads like on a swivel. It's just like

1991
01:49:45,200 --> 01:49:49,760
Speaker 1: it's like and forth, you got you gotta interrupt us, man.

1992
01:49:50,240 --> 01:49:53,439
Speaker 1: The only way that you get any word between me

1993
01:49:54,120 --> 01:49:56,800
Speaker 1: and I guess that is to interrupt us. We've covered

1994
01:49:56,800 --> 01:50:05,160
Speaker 1: a lot of ground there too, so so guess my summary. Yeah,

1995
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:07,560
Speaker 1: I'm just deep in thought over here, you know, I

1996
01:50:07,720 --> 01:50:10,760
Speaker 1: was just thinking about the whole thing between hunting and

1997
01:50:11,120 --> 01:50:14,880
Speaker 1: this adventurous lifestyle. And for me growing up, I got

1998
01:50:16,120 --> 01:50:18,519
Speaker 1: without knowing it. I was caught up in the utility

1999
01:50:18,680 --> 01:50:21,880
Speaker 1: of of hunting more so than the adventure, you know,

2000
01:50:22,080 --> 01:50:24,600
Speaker 1: just going out. It's like this is successful if we

2001
01:50:24,680 --> 01:50:27,439
Speaker 1: come back with something, or the whole concept of catch

2002
01:50:27,520 --> 01:50:30,479
Speaker 1: and release fishing was out of my mind, you know.

2003
01:50:31,080 --> 01:50:34,559
Speaker 1: And so since I've been here inside of Arkansas, I've

2004
01:50:34,640 --> 01:50:37,560
Speaker 1: begun to appreciate all these things where you don't you

2005
01:50:37,600 --> 01:50:40,160
Speaker 1: don't have some utility, you're like going out and bringing

2006
01:50:40,200 --> 01:50:43,479
Speaker 1: back something tangible. So like I've gotten into the hiking

2007
01:50:43,640 --> 01:50:47,160
Speaker 1: and road biking and fly fishing and so all these

2008
01:50:47,240 --> 01:50:50,759
Speaker 1: things have just I've kind of gone the opposite direction

2009
01:50:50,840 --> 01:50:52,680
Speaker 1: where I started out with the utility of hunting, and

2010
01:50:52,720 --> 01:50:54,760
Speaker 1: I appreciated all the things that I got out of it,

2011
01:50:55,439 --> 01:50:58,280
Speaker 1: but I missed out on the whole adventurous side of it.

2012
01:50:58,400 --> 01:51:01,600
Speaker 1: So like we went with mules to Montana, you know,

2013
01:51:02,240 --> 01:51:05,080
Speaker 1: that was that was a big thing for me to

2014
01:51:05,160 --> 01:51:07,320
Speaker 1: where it's like, man, this is actually fun to get

2015
01:51:07,320 --> 01:51:10,240
Speaker 1: out and just adventure instead of just going out and

2016
01:51:10,360 --> 01:51:12,800
Speaker 1: just seeing I'm just going out for it to fill

2017
01:51:12,840 --> 01:51:14,920
Speaker 1: the freezer. I don't care if it's a spike or whatever,

2018
01:51:15,080 --> 01:51:17,479
Speaker 1: you know. And uh and so I think that's the

2019
01:51:17,560 --> 01:51:22,799
Speaker 1: appreciation that that I've come into inside of living inside

2020
01:51:22,840 --> 01:51:25,599
Speaker 1: of Arkansas versus Texas, where it's like you go from

2021
01:51:26,000 --> 01:51:29,960
Speaker 1: not having these you know, national forests and public lands

2022
01:51:30,000 --> 01:51:32,200
Speaker 1: to a place to where I can just go and

2023
01:51:32,320 --> 01:51:34,519
Speaker 1: roam without having to knock on some door, get ahold

2024
01:51:34,560 --> 01:51:37,920
Speaker 1: of somebody. And uh and so I I think like

2025
01:51:37,960 --> 01:51:40,560
Speaker 1: when you're talking about bush craft man, I'd like to

2026
01:51:40,640 --> 01:51:44,439
Speaker 1: do that, you know, just understand more about just build

2027
01:51:44,479 --> 01:51:48,120
Speaker 1: an adaptability inside of me so that if I find

2028
01:51:48,200 --> 01:51:51,120
Speaker 1: myself in some situation or just I mean walking by

2029
01:51:51,240 --> 01:51:53,280
Speaker 1: some plant that I wouldn't know what it is. Now

2030
01:51:53,800 --> 01:51:55,240
Speaker 1: if I'm walking down a trail and I see it,

2031
01:51:55,280 --> 01:51:59,200
Speaker 1: it's like, oh that's cool, you know. And just growing

2032
01:51:59,280 --> 01:52:01,840
Speaker 1: this appreciate ation for the environment that I that I

2033
01:52:01,960 --> 01:52:06,040
Speaker 1: find myself in and draws me into. But just building

2034
01:52:06,040 --> 01:52:10,320
Speaker 1: an ability to it's it's like another a deeper level

2035
01:52:10,400 --> 01:52:13,280
Speaker 1: of communing with nature, where before my commune with nature

2036
01:52:13,320 --> 01:52:15,439
Speaker 1: would be like I'm gonna go and it's gonna provide

2037
01:52:15,479 --> 01:52:17,360
Speaker 1: for me, I'm gonna take something out of it to

2038
01:52:17,479 --> 01:52:19,880
Speaker 1: where I can just go and just exist inside of it,

2039
01:52:19,920 --> 01:52:23,200
Speaker 1: can get a lot of appreciation inside of that for

2040
01:52:23,760 --> 01:52:26,720
Speaker 1: me myself. And you know, what I'm bringing back might

2041
01:52:26,760 --> 01:52:29,080
Speaker 1: be something different. It's just bringing back an experience rather

2042
01:52:29,200 --> 01:52:31,840
Speaker 1: than oh, I'm gonna go and actually like pull something

2043
01:52:31,920 --> 01:52:34,519
Speaker 1: out of it, you know, absolutely here. I think that's

2044
01:52:34,560 --> 01:52:40,599
Speaker 1: something that we could learn from the adventure outdoor side

2045
01:52:41,360 --> 01:52:43,720
Speaker 1: because that's a great point. I think. I think it's

2046
01:52:43,720 --> 01:52:47,519
Speaker 1: a really notable point Colby, because the hunting mind frame

2047
01:52:48,040 --> 01:52:51,200
Speaker 1: is to get something to bring back the you know,

2048
01:52:51,880 --> 01:52:55,840
Speaker 1: adventure outdoors and mind frame is to is for the experience.

2049
01:52:56,640 --> 01:53:00,200
Speaker 1: And obviously there's a there's a in the last some

2050
01:53:00,479 --> 01:53:03,080
Speaker 1: time and hunting, Like we have talked about the experience

2051
01:53:03,120 --> 01:53:06,200
Speaker 1: a lot and how that's valuable. But still like I

2052
01:53:06,320 --> 01:53:10,040
Speaker 1: think combining kind of these two ideologies you probably get

2053
01:53:10,080 --> 01:53:12,720
Speaker 1: a really rich experience, if that makes sense. I think so.

2054
01:53:12,920 --> 01:53:15,240
Speaker 1: And you know, one thing that I can think back about,

2055
01:53:15,680 --> 01:53:18,120
Speaker 1: you know, talk having stories with my dad or my

2056
01:53:18,240 --> 01:53:21,360
Speaker 1: grandpa about going out, it is like the older they got,

2057
01:53:21,560 --> 01:53:24,720
Speaker 1: the less they cared about actually getting anything. They just

2058
01:53:24,840 --> 01:53:28,960
Speaker 1: wanted that time with their family and kind of communing

2059
01:53:29,040 --> 01:53:32,280
Speaker 1: with the natural environment. Right and Uh, as much as

2060
01:53:32,320 --> 01:53:34,760
Speaker 1: my grandpa loved to fish, he just wanted to be

2061
01:53:34,840 --> 01:53:38,240
Speaker 1: out there. And Uh, what I'd like to see maybe

2062
01:53:38,360 --> 01:53:40,719
Speaker 1: is a little more of that mentality trickle down into

2063
01:53:40,840 --> 01:53:44,439
Speaker 1: younger people and it's not always about getting something. You know,

2064
01:53:44,680 --> 01:53:46,960
Speaker 1: and if you do great and in the whole providing

2065
01:53:47,040 --> 01:53:49,479
Speaker 1: for your family thing. I mean, that's a critical component

2066
01:53:49,600 --> 01:53:53,680
Speaker 1: of hunting, and I think everyone should recognize that for

2067
01:53:53,760 --> 01:53:57,240
Speaker 1: what it is. But I think it's it's also okay

2068
01:53:58,520 --> 01:54:01,240
Speaker 1: just to look at it from you know, from a

2069
01:54:02,240 --> 01:54:04,720
Speaker 1: even uh you know, you look at nowadays with all

2070
01:54:04,760 --> 01:54:10,000
Speaker 1: this COVID craziness going on. Uh, we need wilderness and

2071
01:54:10,120 --> 01:54:12,560
Speaker 1: wild places right now, maybe more than we have in

2072
01:54:12,600 --> 01:54:15,559
Speaker 1: a long time for mental health reasons. Right where all

2073
01:54:15,680 --> 01:54:17,720
Speaker 1: you know, people are cooped up and you got a

2074
01:54:18,280 --> 01:54:21,200
Speaker 1: whether it's wearing a mask or whatever it is. Uh,

2075
01:54:21,479 --> 01:54:24,360
Speaker 1: you know, the ability to walk out into a place

2076
01:54:24,439 --> 01:54:27,400
Speaker 1: and just kind of not look at there's nature and

2077
01:54:27,520 --> 01:54:30,600
Speaker 1: here's me. But more of the I'm part of this.

2078
01:54:31,360 --> 01:54:33,160
Speaker 1: I came from this, and one day I'm going to

2079
01:54:33,240 --> 01:54:37,120
Speaker 1: go back to this um and so I may as

2080
01:54:37,160 --> 01:54:39,840
Speaker 1: well figure out a way to kind of be connected

2081
01:54:39,920 --> 01:54:43,480
Speaker 1: to it. And I guess that's ultimately what's let me

2082
01:54:43,600 --> 01:54:46,040
Speaker 1: down the path that UM I have is like I

2083
01:54:46,160 --> 01:54:48,400
Speaker 1: just like that feeling. I like, I like the feeling

2084
01:54:48,480 --> 01:54:52,240
Speaker 1: of feel like I'm more part of the woods than uh,

2085
01:54:52,360 --> 01:54:56,600
Speaker 1: separated from it. It's a good way to put it.

2086
01:54:57,160 --> 01:55:01,920
Speaker 1: I guess. One last thing I mentioned, uh that unfortunately,

2087
01:55:02,000 --> 01:55:04,000
Speaker 1: like every other event I know of, it got canceled

2088
01:55:04,080 --> 01:55:07,160
Speaker 1: this year. But another thing that I do is I'm

2089
01:55:07,200 --> 01:55:11,560
Speaker 1: the director of a wilderness skills challenge. UM that's called

2090
01:55:11,640 --> 01:55:14,800
Speaker 1: the Brewha bush Whack. That's kind of a mouthful, but

2091
01:55:14,920 --> 01:55:16,320
Speaker 1: um there's a website for it. You can go to

2092
01:55:16,360 --> 01:55:19,360
Speaker 1: Brewhaw bush Whack dot com and uh it's kind of

2093
01:55:19,400 --> 01:55:21,840
Speaker 1: a cool thing that me and some friends started about

2094
01:55:21,880 --> 01:55:26,640
Speaker 1: five years ago. And um so if if the listeners,

2095
01:55:26,760 --> 01:55:30,160
Speaker 1: if you're familiar with an adventure race, right, um, you know,

2096
01:55:30,520 --> 01:55:33,080
Speaker 1: typically the way those traditionally would work was you'd get

2097
01:55:33,080 --> 01:55:35,840
Speaker 1: a topographical map and there'd be points on that map

2098
01:55:36,320 --> 01:55:40,080
Speaker 1: and you would, uh you'd go like maybe ride a

2099
01:55:40,120 --> 01:55:42,560
Speaker 1: bike or run or hike and paddle a canoe and

2100
01:55:42,600 --> 01:55:45,360
Speaker 1: all these kinds of things, and you go find those points. Well,

2101
01:55:45,400 --> 01:55:50,320
Speaker 1: what we did was I decided I thought that was interesting, um,

2102
01:55:50,520 --> 01:55:53,120
Speaker 1: but I wanted to maybe make it a little more

2103
01:55:53,960 --> 01:55:56,640
Speaker 1: in the in the realm of this bushcraft and wilderness

2104
01:55:56,640 --> 01:55:59,440
Speaker 1: skills stuff. So, um, first, the first thing we did

2105
01:55:59,560 --> 01:56:03,440
Speaker 1: was we took away the whole race component of it

2106
01:56:03,760 --> 01:56:05,440
Speaker 1: and we designed it so that you can come in

2107
01:56:05,600 --> 01:56:07,840
Speaker 1: last and win. I couldn't have anything to do how

2108
01:56:07,920 --> 01:56:10,080
Speaker 1: fast you are, and so that was one of the

2109
01:56:10,120 --> 01:56:12,240
Speaker 1: first things that we did. But and so instead of

2110
01:56:12,320 --> 01:56:15,080
Speaker 1: time based, it's point based. And so it's all about

2111
01:56:15,120 --> 01:56:19,480
Speaker 1: being a well rounded outdoors person. So you still use

2112
01:56:19,520 --> 01:56:23,120
Speaker 1: a topographical map, but you go where you want, when

2113
01:56:23,200 --> 01:56:25,640
Speaker 1: you want. You plan your own course for the day.

2114
01:56:25,960 --> 01:56:28,440
Speaker 1: So it's about your ability to understand and read the

2115
01:56:28,560 --> 01:56:32,760
Speaker 1: map and create a a plan basically, and when you

2116
01:56:33,240 --> 01:56:36,280
Speaker 1: successfully arrive at a location, there's a password, you write

2117
01:56:36,320 --> 01:56:37,880
Speaker 1: it down and you get a point for that at

2118
01:56:37,920 --> 01:56:39,240
Speaker 1: the end of the day when you're great or you

2119
01:56:39,280 --> 01:56:41,880
Speaker 1: get a certain number of points. Uh. The next thing

2120
01:56:42,080 --> 01:56:45,360
Speaker 1: is is there's um some sort of wilderness skill that

2121
01:56:45,440 --> 01:56:48,240
Speaker 1: you have to show proficiency in, whether that's making a fire,

2122
01:56:48,320 --> 01:56:50,760
Speaker 1: doing for some first s aid or paddling a canoe

2123
01:56:51,480 --> 01:56:56,120
Speaker 1: or rope skills whatever it may be, there you go,

2124
01:56:57,480 --> 01:56:59,600
Speaker 1: and that brings up one of the things that we're

2125
01:56:59,600 --> 01:57:01,000
Speaker 1: gonna go heavy in this year. I've done it in

2126
01:57:01,080 --> 01:57:04,560
Speaker 1: the past, but we always have primitive weapons. We do archery,

2127
01:57:04,640 --> 01:57:07,800
Speaker 1: we do at laddles, we do sling shots, we do blowguns,

2128
01:57:07,880 --> 01:57:10,440
Speaker 1: we do all kinds of stuff. There's always a primitive weapon.

2129
01:57:11,880 --> 01:57:14,960
Speaker 1: But this year, um, and I'm then this is probably

2130
01:57:15,000 --> 01:57:18,440
Speaker 1: a theme going forward, is that, um, the teams were

2131
01:57:18,480 --> 01:57:20,240
Speaker 1: all gonna have to have at least one person that

2132
01:57:20,400 --> 01:57:21,880
Speaker 1: was gonna have a bow with him the whole time,

2133
01:57:22,200 --> 01:57:25,040
Speaker 1: and they're gonna be shooting throughout the whole course. So

2134
01:57:25,400 --> 01:57:27,040
Speaker 1: that kind of changed the game a little bit in

2135
01:57:27,200 --> 01:57:29,640
Speaker 1: terms of making it a lot more interesting for archers

2136
01:57:29,680 --> 01:57:31,680
Speaker 1: and hunters and that type of thing. And then the

2137
01:57:31,760 --> 01:57:35,160
Speaker 1: third component of it is pure nature knowledge. So UM,

2138
01:57:35,200 --> 01:57:39,920
Speaker 1: they'll be like key words are i D Components to

2139
01:57:40,120 --> 01:57:44,240
Speaker 1: things like trees and plants and animal tracks, even stone points,

2140
01:57:44,680 --> 01:57:46,600
Speaker 1: and you have to tell me what those things are.

2141
01:57:47,080 --> 01:57:49,720
Speaker 1: You take the cumulative of all those different skills, and

2142
01:57:49,760 --> 01:57:55,680
Speaker 1: whoever gets the most point wins, and it's a it's

2143
01:57:55,720 --> 01:57:59,120
Speaker 1: in April every year, and we have postponed to UM.

2144
01:57:59,240 --> 01:58:01,800
Speaker 1: It's actually if you're here in Arkansas, you may be

2145
01:58:01,920 --> 01:58:04,280
Speaker 1: familiar with it. But there's a place called Bird's Adventure

2146
01:58:04,360 --> 01:58:07,360
Speaker 1: Center on the Mulberry River and that's where we have

2147
01:58:07,480 --> 01:58:10,560
Speaker 1: it every year. I'm good friends with those folks and

2148
01:58:10,640 --> 01:58:13,160
Speaker 1: they have a huge piece of private land. And in addition,

2149
01:58:13,600 --> 01:58:16,880
Speaker 1: I typically get permits from the Forest Service and we

2150
01:58:17,040 --> 01:58:20,200
Speaker 1: go out and so UM, teams can expect and you

2151
01:58:20,280 --> 01:58:22,640
Speaker 1: have to compete as a team because there's teamwork involved.

2152
01:58:22,720 --> 01:58:25,440
Speaker 1: It's not a solo event. UM. But you can expect

2153
01:58:25,480 --> 01:58:27,960
Speaker 1: to travel somewhere between six and ten miles over the

2154
01:58:28,000 --> 01:58:30,880
Speaker 1: course of the day, so you you cover some ground. Um.

2155
01:58:31,040 --> 01:58:33,080
Speaker 1: But it's a lot of fun. So if if this

2156
01:58:33,240 --> 01:58:35,560
Speaker 1: type of stuff we've been talking about is interesting to

2157
01:58:35,720 --> 01:58:38,600
Speaker 1: you and you'd maybe uh, you know, you'd like to

2158
01:58:39,080 --> 01:58:42,600
Speaker 1: kind of get uh actually do something more directly related

2159
01:58:42,680 --> 01:58:46,400
Speaker 1: to it, Um, you can check out that. Uh you

2160
01:58:46,520 --> 01:58:48,920
Speaker 1: know what, I don't think I've ever been asked that before.

2161
01:58:51,360 --> 01:58:54,000
Speaker 1: It doesn't say no anywhere we might have to think.

2162
01:58:55,840 --> 01:59:03,360
Speaker 1: We might have to think, like in the rule, maybe

2163
01:59:03,400 --> 01:59:06,000
Speaker 1: what we need you to do is create a challenge

2164
01:59:06,120 --> 01:59:08,760
Speaker 1: based around meal and we can get you out there

2165
01:59:09,280 --> 01:59:12,320
Speaker 1: and you're you're kind of that that component because I

2166
01:59:12,440 --> 01:59:14,840
Speaker 1: love mixing it up with different And the other thing

2167
01:59:14,920 --> 01:59:18,080
Speaker 1: about this is like the teams, I give them hints,

2168
01:59:18,440 --> 01:59:21,040
Speaker 1: but they don't know what they're getting into until the

2169
01:59:21,120 --> 01:59:24,240
Speaker 1: day of. So you that's why it's so important to

2170
01:59:24,320 --> 01:59:27,760
Speaker 1: have like a well round team is because you kind

2171
01:59:27,800 --> 01:59:29,360
Speaker 1: of you know you're gonna have to make fire somewhere.

2172
01:59:29,360 --> 01:59:31,000
Speaker 1: You're probably gonna have to do some first aid stuff.

2173
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:32,560
Speaker 1: You're gonna have a paddle a canoe, you're gonna have

2174
01:59:32,600 --> 01:59:36,800
Speaker 1: to do primitive weapons, but you don't know exactly what's happening.

2175
01:59:37,160 --> 01:59:38,680
Speaker 1: And uh so you've got to be able to like,

2176
01:59:39,080 --> 01:59:43,080
Speaker 1: you know, switch gears. So anyway, Uh that's something else

2177
01:59:43,120 --> 01:59:46,400
Speaker 1: that a lot of my energy goes into, um these days,

2178
01:59:46,440 --> 01:59:48,720
Speaker 1: So keep an eye out for that. I gotta say

2179
01:59:48,760 --> 01:59:52,000
Speaker 1: that's one of the coolest shirts. Yeah right now. Yeah,

2180
01:59:52,400 --> 01:59:54,600
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. I saw when you came in, I

2181
01:59:54,680 --> 01:59:59,480
Speaker 1: was like, I need good. Good buddy Robert I work

2182
01:59:59,560 --> 02:00:02,040
Speaker 1: with helped me to zign. Yeah, it's really cool. Better

2183
02:00:02,080 --> 02:00:05,720
Speaker 1: at that stuff to be but n rate cool man.

2184
02:00:05,800 --> 02:00:08,120
Speaker 1: Thanks thanks for trying to Rick. I appreciate it, and

2185
02:00:08,400 --> 02:00:11,720
Speaker 1: uh yeah, we'll find a reason to do this again

2186
02:00:11,760 --> 02:00:15,040
Speaker 1: at some point. But keep it wild pleased as wild

2187
02:00:15,040 --> 02:00:18,240
Speaker 1: because that's where the Bears live. Thanks guys,