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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for

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Speaker 2: the future of this show.

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Speaker 3: This is the only place where you can find honest

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Speaker 3: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does

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Speaker 3: not exist anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please

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Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and

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Speaker 3: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 3: dot com.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, everybody, Happy Monday.

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Speaker 3: We have an amazing show for everybody today. What do

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Speaker 3: we have christ and why are we at home?

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Speaker 1: What's going on?

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Speaker 2: Well it's Martin Luther King Junior. Okay, so that is

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Speaker 2: why we are at home for both personal and also

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Speaker 2: want to always give the crew some time off much deserved,

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Speaker 2: and we have actually though a really big show. I'm

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Speaker 2: sure you guys are aware there is a lot that

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Speaker 2: is breaking in the world right now. This crazy letter

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Speaker 2: from Trump with regard to Greenland. We've got Jeffrey Sachs

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Speaker 2: fortunately in the show this morning, react to that, to

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Speaker 2: talk about Iran, to talk about the border peace, what's

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Speaker 2: going on with Canada China. We're going to take a

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Speaker 2: look at market reaction these tariffs that Trump is now

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Speaker 2: threatening as well, and the EU reaction. So we'll get

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Speaker 2: into all of the geopolitics today. We also have obviously huge,

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Speaker 2: significant domestic developments in terms of Minnesota. Tim Walls is

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Speaker 2: called up the National Guard and Trump is threatening to

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Speaker 2: send in some fifteen hundred troops. So we have the

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Speaker 2: possibility of two armed forces facing off against each other

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Speaker 2: in American streets. Obviously, it's an incredibly it's a very

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Speaker 2: scary situation. I just don't think there's any two ways

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Speaker 2: around it. We also have ice coming after yours, truly,

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Speaker 2: but wanted to use that as an opportunity to highlight

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Speaker 2: some of the specific lies that they've been caught in

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Speaker 2: just recently in the context of what's going on on

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Speaker 2: the ground in Minneapolis. We're also going to take a

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Speaker 2: look at a pretty interesting moment from Gavin Newsom in

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Speaker 2: his interview with Ben Shapiro with regards to Gaza and

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Speaker 2: whether perhaps he is being a bit overhyped as the

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Speaker 2: Democrats potential twenty twenty eight nominee.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, lots in the show, lots in the

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Speaker 3: show today. So why don't we start here with the

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Speaker 3: global market reaction to the tariffs. Definitely the biggest story

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Speaker 3: I think that has happened, and we're talking more with

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Speaker 3: Professor Sachs about the context.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of the Greenland.

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Speaker 3: Stuff, but this is after a Trump true social post

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Speaker 3: over the weekend threatening Europeans with a ten percent tariff

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Speaker 3: on all of the major economies who are not currently

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Speaker 3: bucking or bucking the United States on Greenland. So US

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Speaker 3: stock futures and European shares have dropped, gold and silver

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Speaker 3: have notched new highs. President Trump said he would slap

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Speaker 3: these tariffs. These stocks Europe six hundred fell more than

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Speaker 3: one percent, and trade sensitive socks and others bore the

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Speaker 3: brunt of their selloff. The ten percent tariff is scheduled

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Speaker 3: to kick in on February first for all goods imported

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Speaker 3: from Denmark, Norway, Sweden, France, Germany, the UK, the Netherlands

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Speaker 3: and Finland. So obviously all of the major major economies

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Speaker 3: of Europe, the most significant, are going to be the

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Speaker 3: friend German the UK tariffs in particular. All of this

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Speaker 3: is being considered now in the European Union about potential

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Speaker 3: retaliatory tariffs. There is some ninety three billion in tariffs

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Speaker 3: which have been readied as a potential as a potential response. However,

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Speaker 3: currently the New York Times reporting as of this morning, Chris,

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Speaker 3: I'm just sending you the article if you want to

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Speaker 3: put this up from the New York Times reporting this morning,

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Speaker 3: the European Union officials lean toward negotiating, not retaliating over

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Speaker 3: Trump tariff threat. European Union ambassadors held an emergency meeting

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Speaker 3: on Sunday, and leaders from the twenty seven nation bloc

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Speaker 3: will meet in Brussels later this week. I will also

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Speaker 3: note for everybody that Donald Trump and the administration is

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Speaker 3: going to Davos this week, and so the Davos speech

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Speaker 3: Trump is apparently apparently going to talk about some of

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Speaker 3: the housing initiatives and the mortgage bonds and the credit

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Speaker 3: card affordability rate. Personally, you know, wouldn't talk about affordability

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Speaker 3: of Davos. Just me in terms of a general message.

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Speaker 3: If you're trying to target the American people.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't go to the claud Schwab. You know, place

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Speaker 1: with a world economic form to talk about.

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Speaker 2: It's not really giving, it's not really giving, like cares

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Speaker 2: about the little people, is it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I would not personally don ski gear at Davos sitting

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Speaker 3: next to n Videos Jensen Wog. But all of this

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Speaker 3: is the context of all of these European leaders. This

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Speaker 3: is probably going to be the most important Davos meeting

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Speaker 3: maybe of all time, because Trump is coming there. We're

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Speaker 3: going to talk with Professor Sacks, but the Board of Piece,

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Speaker 3: the tariff question is almost certainly going to get discussed

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Speaker 3: and negotiated here in the context broadly of Greenland. But

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Speaker 3: I think why this matters is that at the very

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Speaker 3: same time, this juxtaposition is fundamentally what the White House

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Speaker 3: is having trouble with at the very same time that

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Speaker 3: they're doing the private equity housing initiative, the credit card

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Speaker 3: interest cap rates.

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Speaker 1: These are good policies.

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Speaker 3: I'll support them, and you know, in a normal administration,

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Speaker 3: this is the only thing that you want to kind.

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Speaker 1: Of be talked about.

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Speaker 3: But obviously the tariff threat, the potential threat of tariff's

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Speaker 3: here market reaction, Greenland itself. Venezuela, Iran so much of

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Speaker 3: this is all is pulling, you know, in their messaging.

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Speaker 1: I didn't even mention Ice.

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Speaker 3: That's a whole other, like domestic political story, and so

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Speaker 3: things like that are starting to get buried, and I

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Speaker 3: think it just demonstrates the way that the President and

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Speaker 3: this White House likes to react and basically just you know,

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Speaker 3: run the country and or the world. And as such,

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Speaker 3: you end up in this situation where you have a

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Speaker 3: speech which is supposed to be talking about affordability and

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Speaker 3: the betrayal of the Davos class, but it's also going

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Speaker 3: to be a lot about Greenland. I mean, that's one

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Speaker 3: of the things here with the whole tariff question. We'll

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Speaker 3: talk more with Greenland. Professor Sacks is very strong of.

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Speaker 1: View on this.

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Speaker 3: Mine is generally I'm curious for yours is. Look, I

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Speaker 3: don't care, I hate the Europeans, and I don't particularly

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Speaker 3: care that much about Greenland. At the end of the day,

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Speaker 3: you know, yes, a strategy, we have a treaty where

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Speaker 3: we can basically do whatever we want. I want the

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Speaker 3: Greenlanders to be fine. The idea that Denmark owns Greenland

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Speaker 3: as a colony is in my opinion, ridiculous, especially when

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Speaker 3: we're talking about the Kingdom of Denmark. You're like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: put all that aside. Though, Why I mean this is,

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Speaker 3: you know, I've talked about this with Israel. I've talked

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Speaker 3: about this with Ukraine, and the same basic strategic logic

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Speaker 3: applies here. Is Greenland being part of the US, like

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Speaker 3: notionally kind of strategically important for the US because of

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Speaker 3: melting polarized caps and all that. Yeah, you can make

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Speaker 3: a case is it important enough to jeopardize your trading

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Speaker 3: relations with some of the world's largest economies in Europe?

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Speaker 3: And yes, we can talk about their declining influence and

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Speaker 3: all that. Obviously, no, like, this is not what you

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Speaker 3: would center you know, your entire geopolitical orientation of European

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Speaker 3: relations of the question of Greenland. And I said the

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Speaker 3: same thing when I were talking about Ukraine and Russia.

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Speaker 3: It's ridiculous, like sure, yeah, Greenland, Okay, let's try to

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Speaker 3: buy it or whatever. Fine, And just basically, I guess,

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Speaker 3: extend the treaty which we currently have as part of

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Speaker 3: our country. I don't even think most people would particularly

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Speaker 3: care about that, although they would care if you do

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Speaker 3: spend a bunch of money on Greenland and then people

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Speaker 3: are also having an affordability problem here at home. But

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Speaker 3: in general this applies the same logic of you have

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Speaker 3: multi billions in bilateral trade with France, Germany, the UK, Denmark.

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Speaker 3: By the way, Denmark owns that patent on Novo no artisk,

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Speaker 3: you know, osampic. So if Americans you know, care about that,

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Speaker 3: that's certainly why I should care a little bit about Denmark.

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Speaker 3: Here in particular Norway, Sweden, we actually do a lot

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Speaker 3: of high technology trade transfer in all of them with

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Speaker 3: those countries.

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Speaker 4: You know, our.

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Speaker 3: Relations with those countries should be based on our mutual interests.

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Speaker 3: And you may say even Greenland is an interest. I

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Speaker 3: accept you know that to a marginal degree, but I

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Speaker 3: don't think it's in any way such a compelling thing

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Speaker 3: to base. Again, just like Ukraine, where we base all

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Speaker 3: of our foreign policy and economic policy around this country

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Speaker 3: didn't matter here at all to now you know, a

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Speaker 3: barren land where, yes, a few military bases and some

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Speaker 3: polar ice shipping lanes. Again, you can make a case

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Speaker 3: for that, but I just don't think people at home

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Speaker 3: are going to be buying this, especially when Trump is

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Speaker 3: making it all about himself and whether he got the

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Speaker 3: Nobel Peace Prize or not again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like insulting, right. They don't even bother with

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Speaker 2: their war propaganda anymore, with their conquest propaganda anymore. It's like,

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Speaker 2: I'm my ego was hurt that I didn't get the

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Speaker 2: Nobel Peace Prize, therefore you should give me Greenland. Like yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's a message that's really going to resonate with the

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Speaker 2: American people. I mean, out of everything. Like the Venezuela

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Speaker 2: action has some support, it's not really what people were

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Speaker 2: looking for over or from this administration beforehand. People are

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Speaker 2: very opposed now in terms of the kidnapping of Maduro.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of like relatively split in terms of running Venezuela.

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Speaker 2: This is still extremely unpopular. But some of the logic

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Speaker 2: on Venezuela, the failed lack of logic on Venezuela, also

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Speaker 2: applies to Greenland, Like does Venezuela have natural resources that

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Speaker 2: will be useful to us?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Could we have acquired those resources without this whole insanity, Yes,

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Speaker 2: that was all on the table. It's the same with Greenland.

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Speaker 2: Do they have some things that are useful to us,

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Speaker 2: including like a strategic positioning as the polarized caps melt Sure.

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Speaker 2: Do we already have the ability to make deals with

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Speaker 2: them and put our military there as much as we would? Yes,

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Speaker 2: we do. So what is this all about? And you know,

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Speaker 2: with Trump, a lot of it does just ultimately come

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Speaker 2: down to show and ego.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: He wants the show of and I think for his legacy.

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Speaker 2: He likes the idea of having expanded US, you know,

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Speaker 2: the expanse of the US.

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Speaker 1: He likes that.

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Speaker 2: He thinks that this is a good sort of like

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Speaker 2: reality show type play. He thinks it will be fast

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Speaker 2: and easy, the way that he sees Venezuela as being.

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Speaker 2: You know, as we're in the early days and we

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Speaker 2: haven't seen all of the fallout in consequences and what

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Speaker 2: that could potentially lead to. He sees Greenland as an

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Speaker 2: easy mark and as an easy target. And I don't

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Speaker 2: think that it gets much more complicated than that. But

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Speaker 2: in the meantime, you know, I mean, look, Europe is

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Speaker 2: comparatively weak, right, They're certainly you know, declined over the years.

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Speaker 2: You're still talking about the EU having some four or

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Speaker 2: fifty million people. You're still talking about this being a

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Speaker 2: very wealthy region compared to the rest of the world.

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Speaker 2: You're still talking about a lot of trading relationships and

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Speaker 2: you know, important things like Zampick that we get from

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Speaker 2: the region. So you know, it's not nothing to completely

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Speaker 2: brazenly say, listen, that territory that you think you have,

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Speaker 2: like we're just gonna take it because we want it.

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Speaker 2: The Europeans have really tried to, you know, accommodate Trump,

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Speaker 2: they've tried to appease him, they've tried not to piss

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Speaker 2: him off, and so you're also forcing a decision point

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Speaker 2: from them where that becomes no longer tenable. You even

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Speaker 2: had the AfD, which is Germany's far right party that

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Speaker 2: you know, Elon Musk went spoke with that and one

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Speaker 2: wing of them is like banned because they're neo Nazi whatever.

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Speaker 2: They've done a lot to try to reach out to

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Speaker 2: Trump into the MAGA movement in the US. Their leader

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Speaker 2: even had to come out and condemn these actions with

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Speaker 2: regard to Greenland. So if if that's the type of

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Speaker 2: like left to right political unity you're getting in Europe again,

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Speaker 2: they have to respond to their domestic constituencies. They have

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Speaker 2: to respond to their own sovereign self interests. Yes, and

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Speaker 2: the yes, that's exactly right, and Emmanuel Macron, who you

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Speaker 2: know is incredibly unpopular in France. He came out and

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Speaker 2: had sort of the strongest statement saying that the EU

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Speaker 2: should use their most aggressive what's called like a trade bazooka,

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Speaker 2: their most aggressive suite of policies that they've never used

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Speaker 2: before to try to push back here. So you're kind

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Speaker 2: of forcing a reckoning. Canada is you know, the strongest

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Speaker 2: example here where Mark Carney, who I think is extremely intelligent,

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Speaker 2: understands financial systems because he was a Central anchor. He

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Speaker 2: makes a trip to China and says, hey, we're going

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Speaker 2: to do a deal with you. Actually, you know, we

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Speaker 2: are going to let some of your evs into our country.

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Speaker 2: And actually we want to do a joint venture with

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Speaker 2: you so that we can use your technology and build

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Speaker 2: electric vehicles here in Canada. We want a new partnership.

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Speaker 2: This was unimaginable just a few years back when there

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Speaker 2: was incredible, incredibly tense and hostile relations between Canada and China. So,

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Speaker 2: I mean, it truly is forcing a sort of global reckoning,

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Speaker 2: much against the you know, the will of these states

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Speaker 2: which have tried to just sort of like, you know,

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Speaker 2: let's just calm the waters and go along, to get

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Speaker 2: along and see if we can get through this thing.

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Speaker 3: I was talking to Dave Smith, and I'm like, look,

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Speaker 3: I think the Greenland thing is ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: But then they keep saying, oh, but this will.

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Speaker 3: Be the end of NATO, and we're like, well, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's like, maybe it wouldn't be such a horrible thing, right,

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Speaker 3: because obviously it's facetious for anybody who wants that to

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Speaker 3: take that out of context. But in general, you know,

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Speaker 3: if we look at the more recent uh you know,

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Speaker 3: not only the US relationship with NATO, but Libya, Ukraine,

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Speaker 3: I mean, it has been a massive drain and source

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Speaker 3: of attension in Eastern Europe. I've long looked at it

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Speaker 3: as a massive liability with Poland, Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia.

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Speaker 3: As you also said, I mean more this is why

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Speaker 3: this is so difficult. And you know, I have no

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Speaker 3: sympathy whatsoever for the hypocrisy of the Europeans who decry

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Speaker 3: the Venezuelan government in Iranian government is illegitimate and support

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Speaker 3: American actions to overthrow that.

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Speaker 1: But when it's their country.

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Speaker 2: Stood bias through an entire genocide and god than all

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Speaker 2: of that, not just.

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Speaker 1: Us, they supported Israel too. I mean, look at their

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Speaker 1: own societies. Germany.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you talk about censorship of Palestinian you know,

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Speaker 3: advocacy in America. Look at the UK, Look at Germany. Okay,

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Speaker 3: these are not consistent people that we're dealing with. And

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Speaker 3: then they're like, oh, because the Kingdom of Denmark and

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Speaker 3: Eric the Red took Greenland and in the year four

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Speaker 3: hundred eight or whatever, it's ours forever. I'm like, all right,

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Speaker 3: all right, you know, there's only a certain level of

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Speaker 3: hypocrisy that I can you know, stomach whenever it comes

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Speaker 3: to their rule of Greenland. So let me just say

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Speaker 3: that unequivocally. And then the idea that the Danes, who

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Speaker 3: again basically turned it over to America in the nineteen fifties,

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Speaker 3: have any like security guarantee over Greenland is preposterous because

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Speaker 3: they literally couldn't hold it whenever they were conquered by

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Speaker 3: the Nazis in World War two.

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Speaker 1: Put that all aside.

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Speaker 3: So, just just so people make clear, I'm not one

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Speaker 3: of these like international law posters in general. In general,

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Speaker 3: here the question comes down to is this about Trump

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Speaker 3: or is this for America?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: And I think that's why that you know, many of

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Speaker 3: the defenders of this administration and others will talk about

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Speaker 3: it just in the language that I just did, all

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Speaker 3: of which I agree with. They will talk about the strategy.

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Speaker 3: What we will, what we are remiss is centralizing this

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Speaker 3: central point, you know, as the cleavage of all our

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Speaker 3: relations with Europe. If we're gonna break relations with Europe,

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Speaker 3: in my opinion, it should be over Ukraine. It should

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Speaker 3: be over something that's important to us. It should say, hey,

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Speaker 3: you guys have gone all in on this absolute nonsense.

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Speaker 3: You're trying to drag us into all of these wars.

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Speaker 3: We are breaking from you because we think it's better

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Speaker 3: for our strategy to make sure that we have an

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Speaker 3: economic block of these core countries France, Germany, the UK,

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Speaker 3: the traditional allies, and we are not going to continue

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Speaker 3: to pour hundreds of billions of dollars into Ukrainian morass,

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Speaker 3: jeopardize our relationships with Russia China, and create this entire

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Speaker 3: multipolarity system which draws US away from East Asia. All

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Speaker 3: of that sounds good, right, but that's not what's happening.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's like Iran. I talked about this with

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Speaker 1: Professor Sachs Chrystl. You know we are.

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Speaker 3: Can you imagine the strategic logic of bringing a carrier

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Speaker 3: strike group from the South China Sea where forty fifty

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Speaker 3: percent of the world's GDP is moving through to support

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Speaker 3: you know, a color revolution in Iran and potentially overthrow

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Speaker 3: the regime. That is the most counter strategic logic in

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Speaker 3: the world. And then same here with Venezuela, where we

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Speaker 3: brought a vast armada which again drew away from any

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Speaker 3: potential Iranian you know, uh, you know, influences, so that

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Speaker 3: we can currently operate this blockade so that every month

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Speaker 3: we can make you know, a couple hundred million in oil.

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Speaker 3: And look, I know that that sounds like a lot

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Speaker 3: for everybody you know who is listening in relative but

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Speaker 3: like put it in relative terms, the United States is

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Speaker 3: a net exporter of hundreds of billions of dollars of

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Speaker 3: petrochemicals across in the world.

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Speaker 2: In that first Venezuela sale again, and this speaks to

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Speaker 2: the core of all everything Trump does. The first Venezuela

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Speaker 2: oil sales goes to a major type donor, because of course,

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Speaker 2: I mean, and there's.

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Speaker 1: In some bank account in Qatar.

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Speaker 2: It's some private bank account, not with the US Treasury.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, and that's the thing I mean with

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Speaker 2: the border piece, right, A billion dollars in cash to

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Speaker 2: this thing that Trump controls, that he's the chair of that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I guess these other countries can sit on, but if

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Speaker 2: I don't like their decision, I get the final say.

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Speaker 2: I mean it, just it, truly. I do think the

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Speaker 2: best way to think about the way Trump operates is

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Speaker 2: through the lens of reality TV and through the lens

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Speaker 2: of the mafia. I genuinely do, you know. And he

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Speaker 2: conflates American interest with his own personal interest, which is

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Speaker 2: abundantly clear when you look at this insane you know,

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Speaker 2: Greenland I didn't get the Nobel.

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Speaker 1: Peace Prize thing.

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Speaker 2: He sees this as like, yeah, of course our country

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Speaker 2: should should invade Greenland and take control of Greenland because

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Speaker 2: of my own personal slight. I mean, this is just

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Speaker 2: a completely bonker's way of viewing politics of viewing, international

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Speaker 2: affairs of viewing, you know, the American interest, all of that.

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Speaker 3: Sorry about the Nobel thing, sure, yeah. So back in

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Speaker 3: twenty ten, the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to a

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Speaker 3: activist from China, and the Chinese government heavily punished the

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Speaker 3: Norway the state because they operated under the same belief

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Speaker 3: that the Norwegian government awards the Nobel Peace Prize, and

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Speaker 3: the Norwegian government had to consistently be like, guys, we

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Speaker 3: have no control over the Nobel Peace Prize. And it

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Speaker 3: was the United States that consistently criticized China for acting

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Speaker 3: in a childish and gangsterish manner of trying to punish

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Speaker 3: the country of Norway for the incorrect belief that the

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Speaker 3: government of Norway controls the Nobel's Peace Prize. So for

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Speaker 3: those of us who I covered, that actually a lot

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Speaker 3: at the time when I was in college, and so

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Speaker 3: to see it flip around and how it be our

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Speaker 3: president operate under the same Chinese belief that everything is

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Speaker 3: being pulled here all by the strings is just so

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Speaker 3: is so exic.

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Speaker 2: Why is Denmark being punished for the crimes of Norway.

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Speaker 3: Well, they were once the same country, to be fair,

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Speaker 3: they were once, they're not anymore.

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Speaker 2: What a lot I mean, it's just it's it's hard

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Speaker 2: to take any of it seriously except that it is

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Speaker 2: so serious. And you know, the best I can hope

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Speaker 2: is that it does for some sort of reckoning and realignment.

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Speaker 2: But I think that realignment will be very damaging to

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Speaker 2: the United States because as much as Trump loves to

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Speaker 2: talk about, and this is true, that Europe really relies

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Speaker 2: on our military spending for their you know, for their sovereignty. Effectively,

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Speaker 2: we also rely on the entire rest of the world

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Speaker 2: using the dollar as a reserve currency. I mean that

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Speaker 2: effectively was the deal after World War Two. It's like, Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're going to do this. You know, you get to

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Speaker 2: use her nuclear umbrella. We're going to put all these

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Speaker 2: spaces here, we're going to protect you. You don't have

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Speaker 2: to spend as much on military spending, so you can

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Speaker 2: do your social safety net spending. But we are getting

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Speaker 2: rid of the gold standard. You guys are going to

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Speaker 2: use the dollars of the world's reserve currency. And that

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Speaker 2: is the way that we're able to have run these

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Speaker 2: tremendous deficits and have this extraordinary amount of debt. And

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Speaker 2: if that goes away, and I'm not saying we're like

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Speaker 2: on the brink of that, but he is helping to

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Speaker 2: accelerate that process where if we're going to break our

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Speaker 2: end of that deal, then they're gonna say, okay, well,

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Speaker 2: we're not keeping up our side of that deal either,

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Speaker 2: and that will have tremendous consequences for the US and

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Speaker 2: for what we're able to spend and what we're able

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Speaker 2: to do. You know, the way I sort of look

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Speaker 2: at this in the macro in terms of figuring out

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Speaker 2: what the fuck Trump is up to is I think

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Speaker 2: if you look at his budgetary priorities, it becomes pretty clear.

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Speaker 2: Right he's asking for a one and a half trillion

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Speaker 2: dollar defense budget. He's no longer interested in like mutual

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Speaker 2: self interest, you know, let's do deals that make sense

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Speaker 2: for us. He's no longer interested, certainly in like alliances

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Speaker 2: or like the trappings of the UN or any of

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Speaker 2: that he is going to. His view is we will

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Speaker 2: use hard power. We will use guns, we will use

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Speaker 2: our nukes. We will force the world to comply, and

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Speaker 2: even for you know, us with all of our military

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Speaker 2: spending and all of the bases that we have around

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Speaker 2: the world, Like he talks about the fact that Denmark

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Speaker 2: can't defend Greenland, Like we can't defend all of our

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Speaker 2: military where we have eight hundred bases around the world.

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Speaker 2: You think we can defend that. We couldn't beat the frickin'

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Speaker 2: Hoothies like for all of this projection of oh, we're

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Speaker 2: so strong, et cetera, Like, we didn't do anything to

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Speaker 2: Iran really other than symbolic strikes. We did not, you know,

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Speaker 2: defeat Humas, We did not defeat Russia. We did not

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Speaker 2: defeat the Houthies. Of course, we all know the list

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Speaker 2: of failed adventures in the Middle East and how that

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Speaker 2: has gone for us. So it's this sort of Potempkin

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Speaker 2: village of strength that we have, really, And so even

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Speaker 2: if you have this one and a half trillion dollar

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Speaker 2: defense budget, if you are solely relying on your might

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Speaker 2: and your guns, and at the time when you've you know,

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Speaker 2: you've talked a lot about how we have this weakened

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Speaker 2: industrial base, like that one and a half trillion dollars

435
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 2: isn't even going to get us what it should get us.

436
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 2: But if you're just relying on that, you are going

437
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 2: to end up in a very very poor and very

438
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 2: dangerous position. And then you pair that with on the

439
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:16,120
Speaker 2: domestic side, you know, the ice budget, the way that

440
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 2: that that is now larger, the budget for that one

441
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 2: federal law enforcement agency is now larger than the military

442
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 2: budgets of all but like thirteen countries in the entire world.

443
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 2: You can see their approach. It's all just guns, police state,

444
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 2: you know, hard power approach. And you know it actually

445
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 2: it actually belies the fact that both domestically and in

446
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 2: global affairs, America and the Trump regime is quite weak

447
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,879
Speaker 2: and they feel like they have to sort of crack

448
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,919
Speaker 2: down in this aggressive manner in order to hold on.

449
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 3: We are you know that the strategy works until it

450
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 3: doesn't work. So I have that books behind me. The

451
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 3: phony war from uh, you know, during World War Two,

452
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 3: for example, Hit there was unstoppable. You know, he conquers

453
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,639
Speaker 3: Denmark and Norway, all of these countries. Then the phony

454
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,679
Speaker 3: war erupts and then he comes and you know, the

455
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 3: smashing success that happens in France and the takeover, and

456
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,919
Speaker 3: then what happens They decide to invade Russia, right, or

457
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 3: if I could take it back to the First World War,

458
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 3: you have the stunning initial success and the movement of

459
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 3: the German troops and then oh we're stuck. We're stuck

460
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 3: here in the trench battles and it's not you know, look,

461
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 3: that's just the wars itself. Prior to that, you know, Germany,

462
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 3: let's say, or the United States, for example, in our takeover.

463
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 3: You know, if we're talking about imperialism, I really recommend

464
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 3: everybody to go and to read or sorry, to listen

465
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 3: to Dan Carlin. He has an episode. It's behind a

466
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 3: paywall now, but you should go and listen to it.

467
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 3: It was about America's experiment, you know, with taking over

468
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 3: Cuba and the Philippines.

469
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 1: It was a disaster.

470
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 3: It was an absolute disaster that the entire country backed

471
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 3: away from that, and actually I just want to, you know,

472
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 3: like reiterate this point. The point that we ultimately made,

473
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 3: and this is when we had real debates actually in

474
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 3: the country, was we can have an empire, we can

475
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 3: have a republic. And I think America has always been

476
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 3: an empire, and part of that has led to the

477
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 3: development of the very things that I think that Donald

478
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 3: Trump's election was a backlash against the deep state, right,

479
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 3: because you can't run an empire without a vast array

480
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 3: of bureaucrats who can change every four years. It's just inefficient.

481
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 3: So you have to have the CIA, the State Department,

482
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,360
Speaker 3: the Defense Department, of this one point five trillion, these

483
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 3: entrenched interests. And Trump, you know, whatever you may say

484
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 3: about I mean, he was elected, I think fundamentally, but

485
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 3: a lot of Americans to try to blow some of

486
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 3: that stuff up in terms of twenty sixteen and twenty

487
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 3: twenty four, I think it's unequivocal. It was a change election,

488
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 3: Like that's what you wanted to change. On the economic system.

489
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 3: Can you deny the Federal Reserve, of which Trump is

490
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 3: currently in a fight and and part of the reason

491
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 3: I back Trump kind of in this fight. Does the

492
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 3: Federal Reserve work for the global banking system or for

493
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 3: the average American household? Right? Does the US Treasury and

494
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 3: its bonds and the way that it operates work for

495
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 3: the stability of global finance or for the Americans pocketbook?

496
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 3: Like the development of this empire system, which has tremendous

497
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 3: benefits to the American elite as well as the global elite,

498
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 3: many who are in Europe now crying over Greenland, has

499
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 3: been the very thing that you know, a so called

500
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 3: populous or nationalist uprising was. Retaining sovereignty is to retain

501
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 3: sovereignty from the imperium itself. And so yeah, I know,

502
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 3: I know it's a little bit high level, but like

503
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 3: that's part of why I'm looking at all of this

504
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 3: and it's it doesn't just feel like betrayal, let's say,

505
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 3: like of the spirit of the election. It funnily misunderstands

506
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 3: I think Trump why he came to power in the

507
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 3: first place. I think Americans actually were sick of it all.

508
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 3: You know, part of even on Ukraine Ukraine fatigue, Where

509
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 3: did it come from? They're like, wow, we can't manage this.

510
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 3: The who these I can go into this, you know

511
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 3: specifics about that, interceptors and all of that, But you

512
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 3: can't look at American power over the last five years

513
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 3: and not say, in any sort of prolong conflict, we're screwed.

514
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 3: And eventually this type of behavior will run up again.

515
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 3: You know, somebody will buck eventually. I can't predict when now.

516
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 3: It may even come in ten years. You know, the

517
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 3: story of the First World War is written from eighteen eighty.

518
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 3: You know, the Franco Prussian War. Nobody at that time

519
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 3: would have predicted it would have ended up, you know

520
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 3: where it was. But looking in retrospect, it's undeniable. So yes,

521
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 3: you know they're they're constantly claiming and looking at victory

522
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 3: in three week increments when anybody can responsible trying to

523
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 3: look at patterns and paths that we're on. I think

524
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 3: it is inevitable, not a war per se, but a

525
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 3: falling apart, you know, of the current system, which in

526
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 3: some ways I welcome because as I just I mean.

527
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 2: There needs to be there needs to be a transition,

528
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 2: there's no doubt about that.

529
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: But I mean it's like with transition to what right.

530
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 2: And this is the thing with Trump, with so many things,

531
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 2: like the Federal Reserve is a perfect example, Like, yeah,

532
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 2: I have my issues with the Federal Reserve as well.

533
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 2: I don't think it should be independent from like the

534
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 2: democratic will of the people. But then the offer from

535
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 2: Trump is instead of it being, you know, beholden to

536
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 2: Wall Street, it's going to be beholden to me, and

537
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 2: I'm going to use it for my enrichment and my

538
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 2: cronies and to you know, my oligarchic friends. And so

539
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 2: I mean it's sort of a battle between like Wall

540
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 2: Street controlling it and the Silicon Valley oligarchs controlling it.

541
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 2: And I'm not excited about either prospect. So I mean,

542
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: and that's that's the way Trump is with many things.

543
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 2: It's like this, you can say, Okay, the world is changing,

544
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 2: us is not going to be able to hold on

545
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 2: to its position as this global hedgemon. What do you

546
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: do about that? And the answer from Trump is to

547
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 2: act like a thug, to up the defense budget to

548
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 2: one point five trillion, and to throw your weight around

549
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 2: in this like reality show esque thuggery style and hope

550
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: that you can hold on and grab enough resources at least,

551
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: you know, until he's out of office, and the hope

552
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: that the damage and the blowback from all of that comes,

553
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 2: you know, after he's long gone.

554
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, well, why don't we kick it over

555
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 3: to Professor Jeffrey Sachs Big time analysis here. From him,

556
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 3: we talk about everything. So let's check that out.

557
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: All right, guys, we are very fortunate to be joined

558
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 2: today by Professor Sachs of Columbia University, who is an

559
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 2: economist and world renowned thinker and best selling author. Scarcely

560
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 2: needs an introduction. Many things to speak with you about today, sir,

561
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us.

562
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 5: Great to be with you.

563
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: Thank you, Yeah, of course. So let me start with

564
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 2: this pretty wild letter that the President of the United

565
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 2: States apparently sent to the Prime Minister of Norway. So

566
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 2: here we go. It says, dear Jonas, considering your country

567
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: decided not to give me the Nobel Peace Prize for

568
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 2: having stopped eight wars plus I no longer feel an

569
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 2: obligation to think purely of peace, although it will always

570
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 2: be predominant. Can now think about what is good and

571
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 2: proper for the United States of America. Denmark cannot protect

572
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 2: that land being Greenland, from Russia or China. And why

573
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 2: do they have a right of ownership anyway? There are

574
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: no written documents. It's only that a boat landed there

575
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 2: hundreds of years ago, but we had boats landing there. Also,

576
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: I've done more for NATO than any other person since

577
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 2: its founding, and now NATO should do something for the

578
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 2: United States. The world is not secure unless we have

579
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 2: complete and total control of Greenland. Thank you, President DJT.

580
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: What do you make of this?

581
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 5: Extraordinary for your attention to this matter.

582
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, which was not only sent to you know,

583
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 2: Prime Minister of Norway, but was also sent to apparently

584
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: a number of European ambassadors.

585
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's terrifying because either he's insane or

586
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 4: he's not insane. We don't know which, but either way,

587
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 4: it's terrifying. If this is serious, and this is how

588
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 4: a president speaks we have lost our country, our democracy,

589
00:29:55,320 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 4: our system, and our safety. If he is an old

590
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 4: man with the megalmaniacal tendencies already and he's over the edge,

591
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 4: which I think is perfectly possible. Though I'm not a psychologist,

592
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 4: this is also something that we're seeing somebody who is

593
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 4: decompensating in front of our eyes. We had a president

594
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 4: last time who collapsed on the job. Maybe it's happening

595
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 4: again again. I have to say this is so strange,

596
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 4: wild nuts that it's not something that grown ups in

597
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 4: normal behavior would do under any circumstances, much less someone

598
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 4: who holds this office. If this is taken as clever

599
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 4: or cute or normal, I think people should re examine

600
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 4: their thoughts about this. I find it frankly astounding.

601
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 3: So zooming out, Professor. There is a big you know

602
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 3: now push by the United States kind of centering its

603
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 3: relationship here with the European powers.

604
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: Crystal.

605
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 3: If we could put the Trump truth social up about

606
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 3: sanction or sorry tariffs that are being put into place

607
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 3: here President Trump saying we have subsidized all countries of

608
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 3: the European Union, etc. I will, you know, stick to

609
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 3: the important part is that there will be tariffs increased

610
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 3: to some ten percent on Denmark, Norway, Sweden, France, Germany,

611
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 3: the UK, Netherlands and Finland, and the tariff will be

612
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: increased to twenty five percent beginning on June first. It's

613
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 3: time for Denmark to give back Greenland. So when we're

614
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 3: talking here a little bit about the relationship with the

615
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 3: European powers by the United States and in the broader

616
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 3: context Greenland, I think is important. I don't think any

617
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 3: of this would be happening without the sugar high that

618
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 3: the administration is currently on. After Venezuela and in particular,

619
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 3: you know, after mid Night Hammer, those seem to have

620
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 3: really convinced the President and his team the United States

621
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 3: can truly be, you know, the world's superpower and can

622
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 3: act like this way in any sphere of the world

623
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 3: in its demands.

624
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: What do you think.

625
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 3: The effects of this type of strategy and a belief

626
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 3: system in the White House could wreak in terms of

627
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 3: the international situation.

628
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 4: Again, if this gang continues to pursue this course, this

629
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 4: is not the will of the American people, This is

630
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 4: not the will of Congress. This reflects no constitutional process whatsoever.

631
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 4: This is a gangsterism and gangsterism generally ends in shootouts,

632
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 4: so I think that this is.

633
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 5: A perilous and reckless course.

634
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 4: And Europe sadly became essentially a vassal of the United

635
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 4: States over the past thirty years. In any event, so

636
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 4: it barely can utter a word in its own defense.

637
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 4: They're scared of their shadow.

638
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 5: They have been rather pathetic.

639
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 4: I've spoken to many European leaders over many years warning

640
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 4: them about the direction of the United States. It's not

641
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 4: only Trump is doing it in a crazy way, but

642
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 4: this also reflects a kind of thuggery that the United

643
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 4: States has been on for a long time, and now

644
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 4: it seems completely unhinged. And of course we're going to

645
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 4: see whether any European power or country can actually express

646
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 4: an honest view. But they're getting close. At least the

647
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 4: German government has said that Greenland is a very bright

648
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 4: red line. The French government, at many different levels of

649
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 4: foreign minister and president have expressed the fact that this

650
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 4: will not be tolerated. Britain, which is, of course, I

651
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 4: think the most delusional and subservient country and that's been

652
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 4: true for many many decades, was able to utter a

653
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 4: sentence at least that this is not acceptable by British standards.

654
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 4: That's quite remarkable. We should understand by the way that

655
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 4: more important things are happening in the world than this

656
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,959
Speaker 4: in many ways. A couple of days ago, the Prime

657
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 4: Minister of Canada is in Beijing and Canada and China

658
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 4: signed a strategic partnership. Very interesting because for Canada to

659
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 4: do that reflects the fact that they understand that the

660
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 4: United States has gone looney, has really completely left any

661
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 4: kind of normalcy. I'm very happy that they have normal

662
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 4: relations with China, but to declare it a strategic partnership,

663
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:38,240
Speaker 4: which I perfectly understand, and I commend the premiere Canada

664
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 4: for doing it, shows what Trump is actually doing. The

665
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 4: idea that they're on a sugar high because they're succeeding

666
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 4: one thing after another, I think is fundamentally wrong. It's,

667
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 4: of course what's pumped up hour to hour on true

668
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 4: social but I think nothing has been accomplished except to

669
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 4: put the world unnoticed that the United States is out

670
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 4: of control from any legal restrictions and any normal restrictions.

671
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 4: Of course, I think this puts much of the world

672
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 4: on high alert. We are in a nuclear world. The

673
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 4: United States is not alone in power it is not

674
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 4: in vulnerable. It actually rarely gets its way. The United

675
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,240
Speaker 4: States does not run Venezuela, by the way. They kidnapped

676
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 4: a president, they killed some people, they don't run anything.

677
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 4: They've commandeered a few ships, but nothing is settled on

678
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 4: that score. There is no way that the United States

679
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 4: is going to own Greenland. It's not going to happen,

680
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 4: although the United States may claim it. So it could

681
00:36:54,440 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 4: absolutely one day claim that Greenland is States, and I

682
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,399
Speaker 4: think that that's actually likely by Trump. But that will

683
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 4: not make Greenland part of the United States and will

684
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 4: make the United States an invader of Europe. That will

685
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 4: dramatically change the scene. So I don't really feel that

686
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 4: this is in any way a demonstration of the United

687
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 4: States being a superpower. I view it as a delusional,

688
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 4: unchecked period and I can't really say myself whether it

689
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 4: is a mental instability of a president or gangsterism that

690
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 4: is premeditated. But thuggishness just on its own. It is

691
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 4: not strategic. It does not increase America's wealth or safety,

692
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 4: or security, or the economy or anything else. There's nothing

693
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 4: that's happening right now that sticks in a meaningful way

694
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 4: for the benefit of MAGA or the benefit of the

695
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 4: American people, or the security of the American people, or

696
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 4: anything else. It's a lot of it's it's a lot

697
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 4: of performance. It's a lot of rather insane boasting and

698
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,760
Speaker 4: threatening and bombing. But nothing that's happened, in my view,

699
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 4: has any consequential benefit of any sort for the American people.

700
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 4: Even probably his friends that he's enriching on each of

701
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 4: these things, on each of these actions, Probably that doesn't

702
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 4: last either. This is just to my mind, a massive

703
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 4: and very dangerous in stability. The fact that nobody in Washington,

704
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 4: in power, in any office, I mean an elected office,

705
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 4: can find the words to express how bizarre and dangerous

706
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 4: and completely unacceptable. This is a sign of how profoundly

707
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 4: degraded our constitutional system is. So I think that it

708
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 4: is a warning to all of us. He's invading Minnesota

709
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 4: the same way he's invading Venezuela, and he's in the

710
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 4: same way that he's threatening to invade Greenland. It's completely

711
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 4: unhinged and it's very dangerous.

712
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 2: Let me go ahead and put up this Financial Times

713
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 2: tear sheet about the European response here. So it says

714
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 2: that EU is readying some ninety three billion euro tariffs

715
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 2: in retaliation. You've got Davos happening this week, the World

716
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 2: Economic Forum, lots of conversations happening between European leaders. They're

717
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 2: supposed to be speaking with Trump as well. I mean,

718
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 2: what would you what can they do? What would you

719
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: advise them to do? Do you think that they have

720
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 2: woken up and realized that they need to take a

721
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,879
Speaker 2: more assertive posture and assert some sort of sovereignty here,

722
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,280
Speaker 2: because clearly the strategy of appeasement has failed.

723
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 4: Yes, that's what I've been saying to them for many years,

724
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:31,800
Speaker 4: and especially during the past year. But they're very sad, semipathetic,

725
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 4: scared of their shadow, and I don't know whether they

726
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 4: still remember how to be national leaders of sovereign countries

727
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 4: or to act together. They're showing a little bit of

728
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 4: sign of this. The terror retaliation and all the rest.

729
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 4: Is one thing what they should be doing is saying unequivocally,

730
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 4: we're not negotiating, we're not discussing. I won't use the

731
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 4: word that words that I would use and that I

732
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 4: think that they ought to use in their private discussions,

733
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 4: but basically they ought to say this is nuts, it's

734
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,720
Speaker 4: not going down we're not even talking about it, so stop.

735
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 4: That's the most basic point. They ought to get together

736
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 4: with Russia and China and India and other parts of

737
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 4: the world and the Bricks to say we cannot go

738
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 4: day to day with this kind of madness and treat

739
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 4: it as normal, because basically every country in the world

740
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 4: is threatened by a completely lawless United States. And they've

741
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 4: expressed They've explained, mister Miller has explained that there are

742
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 4: no laws. Donald Trump has expled that there are no laws.

743
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 4: We're in the hands of.

744
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 5: A small number of people.

745
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 4: In a system that seems to have lost its voice

746
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 4: and is unable to comprehend what's happening. I should add

747
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 4: that you know, as we're watching this, they were trying

748
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 4: last week to overthrow the government of Iran. This was

749
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 4: clearly a CIA operation from beginning to end with Mosad.

750
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 4: That's also a very lawless, reckless, dangerous action. And we

751
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 4: are still close to a generalized war in the Middle East,

752
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,800
Speaker 4: which could well turn nuclear. That's not gone away either.

753
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 4: So either we as a country somehow regain some constitutional

754
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 4: order or I think we are all imperiled.

755
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:52,760
Speaker 1: Professor.

756
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 3: I do want to ask you, because you were talking

757
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 3: there about the Europeans and about our system. I think

758
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 3: one of the problems that I see is, for example,

759
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 3: the Europeans say that the sovereignty of Greenland is just

760
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 3: total and complete, and at the very same time, the

761
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 3: German chancellor called the Iranian government illegitimate and it's time

762
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,399
Speaker 3: to fall as of you know, I think a week ago,

763
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 3: for example, all of them did not recognize Maduro as

764
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 3: the president of Venezuela, and they effectively supported the kidnapping

765
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 3: by the United States and the current operations. If anything,

766
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 3: they're only qualm is that we didn't put boots on

767
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 3: the ground and then force you know, some sort of

768
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 3: quote democratic transition. You know, at the very same time,

769
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 3: the President Zelenski of Ukraine, whose country is literally being invaded,

770
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 3: is supportive of regime change in Iran, and even here

771
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 3: in the US. While many congressmen and others may be upset,

772
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 3: let's say, over Greenland, they fundamentally agree with this idea,

773
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 3: and hence why they didn't have any war powers, resolutions

774
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 3: or anything else on Venezuela. On Iran. I mean, if anything,

775
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 3: there were more hawkish than even the Trump administration was

776
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 3: on Iran, and so it seems as if that fundamental

777
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 3: hypocrisy in their stance and lack not even just as principles,

778
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 3: but they don't believe in law whenever it benefits let's say,

779
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 3: an agenda that goes to them, seems to have opened

780
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 3: the space through which something like this can happen, because

781
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 3: if they were to, let's say, and force something on Greenland,

782
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 3: it would fundamentally call into questions their relations with multiple

783
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 3: other states across the world.

784
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: And their very own foreign policy.

785
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 4: Your points are absolutely right and extremely important. I would

786
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 4: put it this way, and I think it's also really

787
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 4: important to understand the United States foreign policy has been

788
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 4: lawless for many decades. Our presidents and our rhetoric have

789
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 4: generally hidden that to a minor extent at least, but

790
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 4: the kinds of the thuggishness that Trump is displaying is

791
00:44:55,400 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 4: part of American foreign policy. For a long time. Evaded Iraq,

792
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:05,439
Speaker 4: not on wrong premises, but on completely false premises. We

793
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 4: overthrew the government of Syria in a CIA operation that

794
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 4: went on for fourteen years. We bombed Libya to oblivion

795
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 4: and created what has now been fifteen years of civil

796
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 4: war in that country. We overthrew helped to overthrow a

797
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 4: government in Ukraine in February twenty fourteen that put us

798
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 4: on the path of war. You won't find almost any

799
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 4: of this in the New York Times or the Washington Post,

800
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 4: God forbid, that's the CIA outlet or the Wall Street Journal,

801
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 4: which just chortles on who's going to make money on

802
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 4: what particular adventure. The lawlessness has been there for a

803
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 4: long time. It's coming unhinged though with Trump in the

804
00:45:55,640 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 4: last few weeks, because now everything is open game. Why

805
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 4: I say that there may be something psychological or something constitutional,

806
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 4: or something gangsterism in this, but the pace of the

807
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 4: lawlessness and the brazenness of it, and the boasting of

808
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 4: the absence of any restraints is something new compared even

809
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 4: to the lawlessness before.

810
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 5: Now.

811
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 4: The Europeans used to object once in a while to this.

812
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 4: There used to be European leaders who objected to the

813
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 4: Iraq war, for example. They said it was not correct,

814
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 4: it was dangerous. I knew those leaders. We don't have

815
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 4: them in Europe for the last fifteen years. It's an

816
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 4: interesting question why. I think they are afraid of the

817
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 4: United States and afraid of Russia, and very weak internally,

818
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 4: and basically they have. This political class has been raised

819
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 4: by the CIA and the American deep state, all of

820
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 4: the organizations, the Atlantic Council and the German Marshall Fund

821
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 4: and all of these favorite and Davos and everybody else.

822
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 4: You better play the American game if you want to

823
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 4: have political success. So they have lost their voice entirely.

824
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 4: And it's shocking for me because I rather like Europe

825
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 4: and always hope that Europe would be a stabilizing influence

826
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 4: on an extraordinarily violent US foreign policy. They dropped that.

827
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 4: By the way, the Ukraine War was a complete provocation

828
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 4: by the United States, and that's why the New York Times,

829
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 4: which is our phony newspaper, reported that it was unprovoked

830
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 4: a thousand times, precisely because it was provoked by the

831
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 4: United States by overthrowing a government in order for NATO

832
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 4: to enlarge. Okay, now, having said all of that, the

833
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 4: Europeans would not tell the truth in public about this

834
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 4: at all. I speak to the leaders. Some of them

835
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 4: even know it in private, some do not know it.

836
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 4: But the ones that know it in private won't say

837
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 4: it in public. So we've had a situation where you're

838
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 4: completely right, Europe went along with every abuse and let's

839
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 4: remember we have just been complicit in a genocidal operation

840
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 4: in Gaza. So this isn't theoretical about what's going to

841
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 4: happen to Greenland. We had a genocide in Gaza before

842
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 4: our eyes in the last year, which the United States funded, armed,

843
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 4: supported with military intelligence, and gave full diplomatic backing to that's,

844
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 4: by the way, both Biden and Trump. So we're in,

845
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 4: and the Europeans couldn't utter a word. Interestingly, I was

846
00:48:55,080 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 4: at the UN Security Council after the is Ailey's bombed Iran,

847
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 4: so around the table all the Europeans said, they made

848
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 4: warnings to Iran, you better show restraint. Not one of

849
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 4: them challenged Israel for having just bombed Iran. I actually

850
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 4: ironically had a little colloquy with the ambassador to Denmark

851
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 4: because I went up to her after her rather shocking

852
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 4: words and said that how much I like Denmark, and

853
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 4: in a publication that I co edited every year, the

854
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 4: World Happiness Report, Denmark's always at the top, the happiest

855
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 4: country in the world, and she was very happy.

856
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:48,800
Speaker 5: She smiled at me, and then I said.

857
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 4: But wouldn't it be nice if you mentioned not Iran's restraint,

858
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 4: but that Israel just bombed Iran. She turned around and

859
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 4: w out without a word. That's the level of the reality.

860
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 4: Same thing happened with the kidnapping of Maduro. All they

861
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 4: could get out of their mouth was, well, he's a

862
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 4: terrible person or he's an illegitimate president. No one could

863
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 4: say a word about the United States brazenly violating the

864
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 4: UN Charter and its implications. So you're completely right. I

865
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 4: don't want to attack the Europeans when they're being attacked,

866
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 4: but I do want to say that consistency that actually

867
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 4: we should follow some principles is what keeps us all alive.

868
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 4: We hope, and if Europe doesn't utter a word when

869
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:49,240
Speaker 4: the United States makes every abuse, every regime change, every

870
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 4: covert operation, every bombing, every complicity in Israel's crimes, then

871
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:01,919
Speaker 4: they turn around and are surprised about out Denmark. It's

872
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 4: it's a little sad. By the way. If I don't know,

873
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 4: if we have time, I would like to just find

874
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 4: you a statement if I can find it that I

875
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 4: read that, I said to let me see if I

876
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 4: can find it quickly.

877
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 5: I'm sorry to.

878
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 4: Take the time, but no, go ahead.

879
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 5: I spoke to the.

880
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 4: European Parliament a year ago, and I told them this

881
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:33,800
Speaker 4: is going to happen, and they thought, what's the matter

882
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 4: with you, mister Sachs. So I want to read you

883
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 4: what I said. This is verbatim because it shows you

884
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 4: could see I said to the parliamentarians. So I'm not

885
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 4: saying that we're all at the new age of peace,

886
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 4: but we are in a very different kind of politics

887
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 4: right now, a return to great power politics. Europe needs

888
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 4: its own foreign policy, and not just a foreign policy

889
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 4: of Rusophobia. Europe needs a foreign policy that is realistic,

890
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 4: understands Russian situation, understands Europe's situation, understands what America is

891
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 4: and what it stands for, and that tries to avoid

892
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 4: Europe being invaded by the United States. It's certainly not

893
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 4: impossible that Trump's America will land troops in Greenland. I'm

894
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,240
Speaker 4: not joking, and I don't think Trump is joking. Europe

895
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:27,760
Speaker 4: needs a foreign policy, a real one. Europe needs something

896
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 4: different from Yes, will bargain with mister Trump and meet

897
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 4: him halfway. Do you know what that will be like?

898
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 4: Give me a call afterwards. That's what I told them. Okay,

899
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 4: when I told them this, they were not impressed. Oh,

900
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 4: mister Sachs, you're exaggerating, and America is not so bad,

901
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 4: and blah blah blah. They don't understand. But most of

902
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 4: the world doesn't understand. And most of my neighbors on

903
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 4: the Upper West Side of New York do not understand

904
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 4: because they read the New York Times. I'm sorry to say,

905
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 4: I'm going to pick on it one more time because

906
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 4: the violence, the regime change, the brutality of American foreign

907
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:18,240
Speaker 4: policy is not exposed and not discussed in polite company

908
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 4: except now Trump, to his bizarre credit, I can't use

909
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 4: that word in a full sentence with him, but he's

910
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 4: at least saying out loud the brazen truth that there

911
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:38,799
Speaker 4: is no law and no constraint for the US. Incidentally,

912
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 4: I think it was yes. I think it's the Washington

913
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 4: Post today that ran a story that said, how terrible

914
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 4: Putin is. Everyone sees he is a liar because he

915
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 4: doesn't come to the defense of this country and that

916
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,919
Speaker 4: country in this country. Instead of saying how terrible it is,

917
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 4: our president of the United States is bombing and attacking

918
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 4: and so forth. The Washington Post, which is the mouthpiece

919
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:09,800
Speaker 4: of the intelligence agencies, twists it so that it's Putin

920
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 4: that's the villain because he doesn't respond to Trump's thuggery.

921
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 4: So Putin's a liar because he doesn't stand up to

922
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 4: Trump's thuggery, rather than an article that Trump is a

923
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 4: thug And maybe it's it's a dangerous thing for the

924
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:27,720
Speaker 4: world that the United States is led by a gangster group.

925
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 4: So that's where we are.

926
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 2: I want to talk to you a little bit about this.

927
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 5: Being in temperate.

928
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:43,720
Speaker 4: Joy I'm sorry, It's just it gets worse and worse,

929
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 4: more brazen, more shocking, and it's Trump's style is to

930
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:56,879
Speaker 4: normalize this and and that is absolutely.

931
00:54:57,840 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 5: Grotesque.

932
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 2: Sorry, I wanted to talk to you too. You know,

933
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 2: in the context of all of this about this Board

934
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 2: of Peace proposal from Trump, you have you dug into

935
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 2: the details. Here here's some of the latest supporting from

936
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 2: from Bloomberg. Trump wants nations to pay one billion dollars

937
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 2: to stay on peace board. I'll just read you a

938
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 2: little bit of this. The Trump administration's asking countries that

939
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 2: won a permanent spot on his new Board of Peace

940
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 2: to contribute at least one billion dollars. According to a

941
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 2: draft charter for the proposed group, seen by Bloomberg. Trump

942
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 2: himself would serve as its inaugural chairman would decide on

943
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 2: who is invited to be Members' decisions would be taken

944
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,800
Speaker 2: by a majority, with each member state present getting one vote,

945
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 2: but all would be subject to the chairman's approval. Each

946
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 2: member state shall serve a term of no more than

947
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 2: three years. The three year membership term shall not apply

948
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 2: to member states that contribute more than USD one billion

949
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 2: dollars in cash funds to the Board of Peace. We

950
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 2: also have news that you know of a variety of

951
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 2: countries that have been invited. Apparently Putin himself has been

952
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 2: invited onto the Board of Piece. This was all originally conceived,

953
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 2: you know, in the context of this quote unquote peace

954
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 2: plan in Gaza. But now apparently the Board of Peace

955
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 2: is being positioned as sort of a Trump run alternative

956
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 2: to the UN. How do you view this?

957
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 1: What is he up to you here?

958
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 4: If George Orwell had written it, you would think it

959
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,280
Speaker 4: mildly funny, clever.

960
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 5: You might.

961
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 4: View this in a Marvel comic strip as somebody aiming

962
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 4: to run the world. I view this as sad and pathetic,

963
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:54,320
Speaker 4: I said a year ago to many leaders when Trump's

964
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 4: so called peace plan for Gaza was put forward, that

965
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:04,359
Speaker 4: this was a travesty and a trap and after a genocide,

966
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 4: this is not how things should proceed. Things should proceed

967
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 4: with a state of Palestine and Palestinians in charge of reconstruction.

968
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 4: God forbid, Israel should have some responsibility to rebuild after

969
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 4: they've killed probably hundreds of thousands and destroyed this area.

970
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 4: But actually Trump prevailed on one leader after another because

971
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 4: he threatened them, He bribed them. He told them, you

972
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:41,920
Speaker 4: can't have data centers unless you do this, you can't

973
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 4: have this missile system unless you do this. He twisted

974
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 4: everything out of shape and got that plan approved. Now

975
00:57:54,800 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 4: he's doing it again. This is shambalic. He's got his

976
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 4: hedge fun friends, he's got You can't even joke about

977
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 4: putting Tony Blair on this since the British are the

978
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 4: most responsible for having screwed up the Middle East for

979
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:17,919
Speaker 4: the last century of anybody, So why don't we put

980
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 4: Tony Blair back in charge of Gaza. He can maybe

981
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 4: rewrite the bal for declaration. The whole thing is so

982
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 4: absurd you don't even know where to start. But again,

983
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 4: I have to admit Hardly anyone says boo about anything

984
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:44,600
Speaker 4: right now. Each one is scared of putting a word

985
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 4: out right now. I don't think any of this lasts.

986
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 4: But on the other hand, this kind of gangsterism plays

987
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,439
Speaker 4: for a little while. It makes us all at risk.

988
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 3: One of the things that I see in this board

989
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 3: of Peace, Professor, I'm curious what you do as well,

990
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 3: is it's almost like a recreation of the UN Security Council.

991
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 3: You're especially with Russia and a quasi privatized version with

992
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 3: Trump as some sort of emeritis chair.

993
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:22,920
Speaker 4: It's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. Look around

994
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 4: the world, there are actually grown ups, and when you

995
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 4: talk to them, they know that this is looney. This

996
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 4: is insane stuff. Nobody is joining Trump's board to replace

997
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 4: the UN Security Council. Many people think the UN Security

998
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 4: Council is dead, killed by the United States. But nobody, Okay,

999
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 4: I can think of, yes, a few hedge fund guys,

1000
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 4: may be a son in law, and a few others

1001
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 4: who will join the board thinking that it's something real.

1002
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:03,640
Speaker 4: No nobody believes that this is an alternative to the

1003
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 4: UN except some crazy media story in some mainstream medium.

1004
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 4: Pumped up by talking to someone in the White House.

1005
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 4: And the fact of the matter is, the United States

1006
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 4: is not all powerful. It can't run Venezuela, it can't

1007
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 4: overthrow the world, it can't own Greenland. It tried very hard,

1008
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 4: it could not in a proxy war with Russia defeat

1009
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:41,960
Speaker 4: Russia in Ukraine. That was a war between the United

1010
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 4: States and Russia. People should understand that fought with the

1011
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 4: Ukrainians that killed in vast numbers. That was the US strategy,

1012
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 4: but it didn't work. The US has not had any

1013
01:00:55,800 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 4: success anywhere in the Middle East in actually achieving stability

1014
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:08,840
Speaker 4: or long term goals. It has created chaos in Libya,

1015
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 4: in Somalia, in Sudan, in Lebanon, in Syria, in Iraq,

1016
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 4: in Yemen, and it's tried to overthrow the government of

1017
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:31,000
Speaker 4: Iran last week. And my view is it's not over yet.

1018
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 4: Maybe they'll be bombing in the next few days. This

1019
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 4: is an ongoing story. That's not peace, that's not security.

1020
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 5: That is.

1021
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 4: Enrichment except maybe, and I admit, there are some Silicon

1022
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:54,760
Speaker 4: Valley gazillionaires that do make a lot of money off

1023
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 4: of these wars, and maybe this is how Peter Teel

1024
01:01:58,360 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 4: likes it.

1025
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 5: But for the.

1026
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 4: American people, this is not leading to anything real over

1027
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 4: the longer term, and it's not a great show. There

1028
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:13,919
Speaker 4: have been a spate of articles in the last few

1029
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 4: days that America is back as.

1030
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 5: The world's sole superpower. This is absurd.

1031
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 4: Yes, you can kidnap a president, and you can bully,

1032
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:30,320
Speaker 4: and you can even commit a genocide. You can announce

1033
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:35,959
Speaker 4: the peace board. That doesn't give you ownership of the world.

1034
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:43,480
Speaker 4: The fact of the matter, have just been traveling throughout Asia.

1035
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:52,160
Speaker 4: Real investment, real business, real technological advance is taking place,

1036
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:56,200
Speaker 4: not in the way the United States would like it

1037
01:02:56,240 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 4: to happen, or we pretend, but actually is happening outside

1038
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 4: of the United States and not in the US control

1039
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 4: or the US orbit. So I find the gap between

1040
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:19,960
Speaker 4: the brazenness, the rhetoric and so forth, and the underlying

1041
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:28,440
Speaker 4: instability and unreality wider and wider, and I think it

1042
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 4: is absolutely important for us to understand and to keep remembering.

1043
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 4: Trump is sending troops into American cities, and of course

1044
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:47,560
Speaker 4: that's terrifying. But is that a show of strength or

1045
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 4: is that a show of utter contempt for American society,

1046
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 4: for the safety of the American people for the Constitution,

1047
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 4: for law. It's it's the latter. Does it prove that

1048
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 4: he's a great man, a strong man, No, it doesn't

1049
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 4: prove that.

1050
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 5: It proves that.

1051
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 4: There is a degree of recklessness that we've not seen

1052
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:21,160
Speaker 4: in our country in at least since the Civil War.

1053
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:25,320
Speaker 4: I would say, and yeah, something I'm it's very serious.

1054
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 4: Something I'm struck by in your comments, there is and

1055
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 4: I've noted this is we are amazed at our power,

1056
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:36,160
Speaker 4: as you said, to kidnap Maduro with the Delta Force

1057
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 4: raid to take out some Iranian nuclear facilities with a

1058
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 4: high precision strike. But we seem to be at the

1059
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 4: same time, we seem completely and totally enable to recognize

1060
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 4: the constraints that surround us. So, for example, one of

1061
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:56,360
Speaker 4: the things that apparently held up a potential strike on

1062
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 4: Iran is a carrier strike group had to make its

1063
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:01,440
Speaker 4: way from this I was trying to see is the

1064
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 4: idea that we you know, because a significant number of

1065
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 4: naval assets are also in the Caribbean.

1066
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:08,680
Speaker 3: And it also it almost seems to me like the

1067
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 3: grasping of a lot of the straws here seemed to

1068
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:17,480
Speaker 3: be indicative actually of declining power and ability considering what

1069
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:19,720
Speaker 3: has happened now over the last five years.

1070
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and if you look at the situation in Iran,

1071
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:29,960
Speaker 4: the bombing last summer did nothing but performative. It did

1072
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 4: not set back Iran's nuclear program two years.

1073
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 5: It didn't set it back at all.

1074
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:41,439
Speaker 4: Necessarily, four hundred kilograms of sixty percent enriched uranium are

1075
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 4: just out of sight. The amount of centrifuging needed to

1076
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:53,240
Speaker 4: turn those into nuclear weapons if they want that is

1077
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 4: actually quite tiny. At this point, nothing was solved in

1078
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 4: terms of security except breaking any kind of oversight and

1079
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:07,800
Speaker 4: a chance to have the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency,

1080
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:12,040
Speaker 4: have the continued line of sight into what was happening.

1081
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 4: At the same time, Iran demonstrated hypersonic missiles that pierced

1082
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:29,960
Speaker 4: Israel's Iron Dome. They did not target the absolute most

1083
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 4: sensitive targets in Israel. They targeted some military sites, but

1084
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 4: actually they showed that they can pierce the iron dome.

1085
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:48,800
Speaker 4: It's not so iron, and Trump's golden Dome isn't going

1086
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:52,000
Speaker 4: to be so golden after trillions of dollars spent on

1087
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 4: it either.

1088
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 5: So the idea.

1089
01:06:55,080 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 4: That we have proved this overwhelming strength is absolutely false

1090
01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:06,520
Speaker 4: and as you say, they did not have the means

1091
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:10,040
Speaker 4: even if they had wanted to act last week. And

1092
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:13,000
Speaker 4: they may want to act next week, by the way,

1093
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 4: when this carrier strike group comes closer. So I do

1094
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 4: not put it past events at all to see that

1095
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 4: we're in a war next week. But it's not going

1096
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:28,880
Speaker 4: to be so simple. And the United States is not

1097
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 4: the only nuclear superpower, nor is Israel. And if there

1098
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 4: is a war, it's right into the cauldron of nuclear

1099
01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:41,960
Speaker 4: weapons all over the place. It would be the most

1100
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:48,320
Speaker 4: dangerous kind of war one can imagine in all of

1101
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 4: modern times. This is not the same even as the

1102
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 4: recklessness of the Iraq war. So the idea that this

1103
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 4: is somehow American strength is an illusion or a delusion.

1104
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:12,440
Speaker 4: It is an unhinged government. And again, is it unhinged

1105
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:18,960
Speaker 4: by literal mental instability or is it unhinged because of

1106
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:24,040
Speaker 4: gangsterism or some combination, or maybe the difference is too

1107
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:29,000
Speaker 4: narrow to matter. But when a president writes to the

1108
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:33,439
Speaker 4: Prime Minister of Norway, as you opened to say, you

1109
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 4: didn't give me the Nobel Peace Prize, now I don't

1110
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 4: have to think about peace. This is not, under any

1111
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:46,240
Speaker 4: definition the kind of situation that any American should want

1112
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:51,280
Speaker 4: for our own safety and security, much less that the

1113
01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:57,080
Speaker 4: world should want. By any standard, on any interpretation, this

1114
01:08:57,280 --> 01:09:01,920
Speaker 4: is deeply, profoundly disturbing and unnerving.

1115
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:06,679
Speaker 2: Professor, my final question for you is, you know, I'm American.

1116
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:08,880
Speaker 2: I can't help but in spite of some of my

1117
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:11,559
Speaker 2: best attempts, feeling a bit of American nationalism. And this

1118
01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:15,120
Speaker 2: all seems incredibly terrible for our country, for the people

1119
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:18,720
Speaker 2: of our country. But I do wonder if the brazenness

1120
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:22,120
Speaker 2: of it is sort of a wake up call for

1121
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:24,639
Speaker 2: the rest of the world. You know, you pointed out

1122
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:28,480
Speaker 2: the new alliance between Canada and China. You see Europeans,

1123
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 2: you know, showing some theoretical signs of potentially thinking about

1124
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:36,360
Speaker 2: a bit of a backbone. Obviously, there's been efforts with bricks,

1125
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 2: et cetera. So is it possible that out of this brazen,

1126
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:47,280
Speaker 2: undeniable gangsterism that you emerge actually with a better order

1127
01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:50,360
Speaker 2: if we're looking at the at the entire globe.

1128
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:57,360
Speaker 4: Yes, In fact, there are diplomatic conversations happening all over

1129
01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:02,639
Speaker 4: the world, within regions and across regions saying we need

1130
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:07,960
Speaker 4: to get our act together. This is very dangerous and

1131
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:12,479
Speaker 4: the bricks is one part of that. That's half the

1132
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:22,080
Speaker 4: world population. With the ten countries right now, about almost

1133
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:29,000
Speaker 4: half the world's GDP. And they are absolutely aware of

1134
01:10:29,479 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 4: what the implications of all of this are. But I

1135
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:38,479
Speaker 4: think everywhere in the world, Trump is uniting the rest

1136
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:43,000
Speaker 4: of the world in the opposite of what he intends.

1137
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:49,920
Speaker 5: You know, India was courted, supposedly.

1138
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:52,280
Speaker 4: I always thought it was absurd, and I told the

1139
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:57,559
Speaker 4: Indians that Indian leaders many times courted to be on

1140
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:03,640
Speaker 4: our side against China what's called the Quad, which is

1141
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 4: an informal group of the United States, India, Japan and

1142
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:13,920
Speaker 4: Australia that supposedly are the major powers to surround China

1143
01:11:13,960 --> 01:11:16,760
Speaker 4: and to keep China contained. And I said to the

1144
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 4: Indians Indian leadership many times, this is a bad idea.

1145
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:27,679
Speaker 4: Don't be used by the United States. They many times

1146
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:30,599
Speaker 4: many said to me, you know, we have a good

1147
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:34,479
Speaker 4: inside track, we have good relations and so forth. During

1148
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:39,519
Speaker 4: the past year, all of that has broken predictably in

1149
01:11:39,560 --> 01:11:42,439
Speaker 4: my view, I have to say, I told them so,

1150
01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:48,640
Speaker 4: very very explicitly. And what did we see in Shanghai

1151
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:53,559
Speaker 4: at the Shanghai Cooperation Organization? We saw Prime Minister Modi,

1152
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 4: President she of China and President Putin of Russia in

1153
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 4: close embrace. Of course, they're in a close embrace. They

1154
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:08,920
Speaker 4: have the United States that is completely erratic, doesn't have

1155
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:13,519
Speaker 4: a consistency hour to hour, much less than day to day,

1156
01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:16,680
Speaker 4: week to week, or month to month. Every day is

1157
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:20,360
Speaker 4: a new threat, every day is a new slur, every

1158
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:23,280
Speaker 4: day is a new tariff, every day is a new

1159
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:28,920
Speaker 4: executive decree. Of course, these are serious countries that are

1160
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:34,559
Speaker 4: actually not interested in playing some game of Donald Trump's mind,

1161
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:41,000
Speaker 4: but actually interested in stability. They're nuclear powers. They don't

1162
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:46,640
Speaker 4: want a nuclear war. They don't want to be brazenly

1163
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:52,080
Speaker 4: threatened or pushed around by the United States. So the

1164
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:59,040
Speaker 4: answer is yes, Trump is raising in everybody's mind, how

1165
01:12:59,080 --> 01:13:04,920
Speaker 4: do we make a multipolar world? Precisely because we don't

1166
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:08,600
Speaker 4: even have a stable power, in the case of the

1167
01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:14,400
Speaker 4: United States, one that anyone can rely on for any moment,

1168
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 4: because it's whimsical, it is without any kind of treaty constraint,

1169
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:28,879
Speaker 4: external constraint, or respect for anybody else. So the answer

1170
01:13:29,120 --> 01:13:34,439
Speaker 4: is emphatically yes. It's very hard to reshape the thinking.

1171
01:13:35,439 --> 01:13:41,880
Speaker 4: Europe has been so wrong visa the Russia, so misunderstanding

1172
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:46,760
Speaker 4: of what really happened to create the Ukraine War, which

1173
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:51,519
Speaker 4: is a US created war, basically outlined by his big

1174
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:55,120
Speaker 4: Brushinski back in the nineteen nineties that we're going to

1175
01:13:55,200 --> 01:13:58,639
Speaker 4: take NATO and bring Ukraine into NATO and we're going

1176
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:02,759
Speaker 4: to make Russia great power. Well, the United Europe played

1177
01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:07,040
Speaker 4: along so much that now that they're threatened imminently with

1178
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:11,200
Speaker 4: the basically an invasion by the United States in Greenland,

1179
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:15,200
Speaker 4: they don't know how to react because they've been so

1180
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:24,760
Speaker 4: much under the US, so much influenced, I should say,

1181
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:28,480
Speaker 4: by the US approach and by the fear of Russia.

1182
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:33,760
Speaker 4: But even they, as we talked about, are rethinking everything

1183
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:37,680
Speaker 4: right now. Maybe they'll even realize. And actually I have

1184
01:14:37,760 --> 01:14:41,160
Speaker 4: to say, Chancellor Mertz said it a few days ago

1185
01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:47,200
Speaker 4: that maybe he needs to call President Putin. That shows

1186
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:54,120
Speaker 4: that even the Europeans are recalibrating right now under this threat.

1187
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:58,599
Speaker 4: And I can tell you that's happening all over the

1188
01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:02,200
Speaker 4: world because I'm here during those conversations, I'm being asked

1189
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:06,520
Speaker 4: about these issues. This is happening all over the world.

1190
01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:10,360
Speaker 2: Well, Professor Sacks, we really really appreciate you making some

1191
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:12,200
Speaker 2: time for us. I know it's late at night where

1192
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:14,800
Speaker 2: you are, so thank you so much for your insights

1193
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:15,920
Speaker 2: at this pivotal moment.

1194
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 1: Great, thank you, sir, Thank you, appreciate you right now

1195
01:15:18,160 --> 01:15:18,519
Speaker 1: so much.

1196
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:19,479
Speaker 5: Bye bye.

1197
01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:24,719
Speaker 2: So one thing Professor Sachs did is he tied together

1198
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:28,439
Speaker 2: the foreign policy with this domestic crackdown happening in particular

1199
01:15:28,479 --> 01:15:31,000
Speaker 2: in the streets of Minneapolis. And I think that's appropriate

1200
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:33,200
Speaker 2: to connect those two things together. And we have some

1201
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:35,680
Speaker 2: very ominous developments there. Let me go ahead and put

1202
01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:40,839
Speaker 2: this up on the screen. Trump has prepared fifteen hundred

1203
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:45,960
Speaker 2: soldiers to possibly deploy to Minnesota. Let me go ahead

1204
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:47,639
Speaker 2: and read you a little bit of this. The Pentagon

1205
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:50,799
Speaker 2: has ordered about fifteen hundred active duty soldiers to prepare

1206
01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:54,400
Speaker 2: for a possible deployment to Minnesota, defense officials told the

1207
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:58,560
Speaker 2: Washington Post after President Trump threatened to invoke the Insurrection

1208
01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:02,240
Speaker 2: Act in response to unrest there. The soldiers are assigned

1209
01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:05,120
Speaker 2: to two infantry battalions with the Army's eleventh Airborne Division,

1210
01:16:05,160 --> 01:16:10,160
Speaker 2: which is based in Alaska and specializes in cold weather operations.

1211
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:13,080
Speaker 2: The Army placed the units on prepared to deploy orders

1212
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:16,120
Speaker 2: in case violence in Minnesota escalates, official said, characterizing the

1213
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:19,120
Speaker 2: move as prudent planning. Not clear whether any of them

1214
01:16:19,160 --> 01:16:21,600
Speaker 2: will be sent to the state official said, speaking like

1215
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:25,280
Speaker 2: some others on the condition of anonymity. And this comes

1216
01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:32,759
Speaker 2: after Governor Walls has also mobilized the Minnesota National Guard.

1217
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:36,200
Speaker 2: This is from the Minnesota Department of Public Safety. They

1218
01:16:36,200 --> 01:16:39,599
Speaker 2: are staging, it says, to support local law enforcement and

1219
01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:43,600
Speaker 2: emergency management agencies. So, Sager, it does not take a

1220
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:47,439
Speaker 2: rocket scientist to figure out that this is a very,

1221
01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:53,519
Speaker 2: very dangerous and frightening situation. You have the National Guard,

1222
01:16:54,040 --> 01:16:57,520
Speaker 2: which is under the command of Governor Walls, a Democrat

1223
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:02,160
Speaker 2: obviously and someone that you Trump absolutely despises, and you

1224
01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:07,240
Speaker 2: have the possibility of this military unit, these soldiers being

1225
01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:10,080
Speaker 2: sent in under the command of the President of.

1226
01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:10,879
Speaker 1: The United States.

1227
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:16,360
Speaker 2: You already have thousands of federal agents who look like

1228
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:20,040
Speaker 2: they are in Fallujah, like in battle, in full camo

1229
01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:23,880
Speaker 2: and the face masks and the you know, full armored up,

1230
01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:27,400
Speaker 2: all of that already on the ground. And you have

1231
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:30,760
Speaker 2: the residents of Minneapolis, you know, thousands of them, either

1232
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:34,040
Speaker 2: protesting or participating in some of the you know, the

1233
01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:40,720
Speaker 2: actions to record ice to follow them around. And so

1234
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:44,920
Speaker 2: it's I mean, it's as close as I think we've

1235
01:17:44,920 --> 01:17:47,919
Speaker 2: come in our lifetime to some sort of like direct

1236
01:17:48,040 --> 01:17:51,680
Speaker 2: actual soft civil war or actual civil war. When you're

1237
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:55,679
Speaker 2: talking about two armed units under control of separate political

1238
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:57,400
Speaker 2: parties facing off in the streets.

1239
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:00,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not going to go there yet because it

1240
01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:02,559
Speaker 3: is still possibility, but I will say I think that

1241
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:07,520
Speaker 3: this is I think it's dangerous and really defeats the purposes,

1242
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:10,920
Speaker 3: you know, for everything of the stated goal. And I

1243
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:13,080
Speaker 3: don't know though, because at the same time, it seems

1244
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:16,240
Speaker 3: to me like that's what the Trump administration wants. I

1245
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:18,160
Speaker 3: have been thinking, you know, quite a lot about this.

1246
01:18:18,400 --> 01:18:22,760
Speaker 3: I don't understand the strategy. And you know, look, I

1247
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:25,200
Speaker 3: think people who have watched the show know my feelings

1248
01:18:25,240 --> 01:18:29,360
Speaker 3: about immigration. I think they know my feelings about sanctuary cities.

1249
01:18:29,479 --> 01:18:30,519
Speaker 3: I think it's crazy.

1250
01:18:30,680 --> 01:18:30,840
Speaker 4: You know.

1251
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:35,120
Speaker 3: Part of the argument from the administration is about lack

1252
01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:39,479
Speaker 3: of cooperation from local jails authorities, et cetera, for part

1253
01:18:39,479 --> 01:18:41,600
Speaker 3: of the reason of the justification. But the point I

1254
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:46,000
Speaker 3: think that belies at this broader point where the confrontation

1255
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:49,479
Speaker 3: that they appear to seek here is with these blue

1256
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:54,360
Speaker 3: state governors for a sense of control, and a lot

1257
01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:57,240
Speaker 3: of it you know, kind of ties back to this

1258
01:18:57,360 --> 01:19:00,720
Speaker 3: fundamental theory which goes back to let's say BLM or

1259
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:05,320
Speaker 3: after Los Angeles, where that this was something that the

1260
01:19:05,360 --> 01:19:10,080
Speaker 3: public sees as restoring order. And looking now at the

1261
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:14,200
Speaker 3: track record here over the last yeah, it's January nineteenth. Wow,

1262
01:19:14,240 --> 01:19:16,519
Speaker 3: so it's actually been a year. It's been a year now,

1263
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:19,240
Speaker 3: so it's been exactly a year or three hundred and

1264
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:22,360
Speaker 3: sixty four days of how this has played out. What

1265
01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:27,240
Speaker 3: we have watched is that the administration went from extremely

1266
01:19:27,320 --> 01:19:31,680
Speaker 3: high polls coming in on immigration around the border approval

1267
01:19:31,840 --> 01:19:34,920
Speaker 3: in the initial days of closing down the border effectively

1268
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:38,840
Speaker 3: stopping illegal migration to the United States, to then a

1269
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:42,360
Speaker 3: shifting of the strategy here not only with ice, but

1270
01:19:42,439 --> 01:19:46,360
Speaker 3: with specific ways of conduct in blue cities as sort

1271
01:19:46,400 --> 01:19:49,920
Speaker 3: of like retribution. And what has happened is that has

1272
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:54,280
Speaker 3: dramatically polarized the issue of immigration on the left, number one,

1273
01:19:54,880 --> 01:19:58,160
Speaker 3: because it makes it about something much bigger than let's say,

1274
01:19:58,160 --> 01:20:01,439
Speaker 3: deportation around let's say people who are here illegally and

1275
01:20:01,479 --> 01:20:06,200
Speaker 3: who are criminals, to a bigger story about the role

1276
01:20:06,280 --> 01:20:09,320
Speaker 3: of the federal government in the streets here of the US. Now,

1277
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:11,160
Speaker 3: if we take it back to BLM, it was actually

1278
01:20:11,160 --> 01:20:13,640
Speaker 3: a very popular decision, this idea of sending in the

1279
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:16,759
Speaker 3: National guard federalization, because it felt like things were totally

1280
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:20,280
Speaker 3: out of control here from local authorities. Part of the problem,

1281
01:20:20,320 --> 01:20:21,960
Speaker 3: and this is why I actually do think the democratic

1282
01:20:22,040 --> 01:20:26,320
Speaker 3: messaging appears to be hitting is about this notion about

1283
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:29,679
Speaker 3: ice and chaos, right, is that if those two things

1284
01:20:29,680 --> 01:20:33,080
Speaker 3: are tied together, let's say, with the shooting of Renee

1285
01:20:33,080 --> 01:20:35,479
Speaker 3: Good or all of these other videos which is going

1286
01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:40,080
Speaker 3: viral here everywhere, they are seeing that as more chaotic,

1287
01:20:40,280 --> 01:20:42,200
Speaker 3: let's say, than the tens of millions of people who

1288
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:45,839
Speaker 3: are currently present in our country illegally. Now I accept

1289
01:20:45,960 --> 01:20:48,360
Speaker 3: and have said, I think that ignores a certain level

1290
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:48,839
Speaker 3: of chaos.

1291
01:20:48,840 --> 01:20:50,600
Speaker 1: Of what that means, I have tens of millions.

1292
01:20:50,320 --> 01:20:52,800
Speaker 3: Of people who are here illegally, and that the entire

1293
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:56,080
Speaker 3: societal breakdown that I think that comes from that. Part

1294
01:20:56,120 --> 01:21:01,600
Speaker 3: of the reason I supported the deportation any of these initiatives.

1295
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:04,439
Speaker 3: What we were watching here, though, I think is moving

1296
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:11,479
Speaker 3: past that and as instead largely about confrontation with a theory,

1297
01:21:11,880 --> 01:21:16,040
Speaker 3: a theory backed on something that came in the twenty

1298
01:21:16,120 --> 01:21:19,680
Speaker 3: twenty four election, which again was about control, but I

1299
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:23,240
Speaker 3: think it misreads how much of the public first of all,

1300
01:21:23,280 --> 01:21:27,439
Speaker 3: has fuzzy ideas around you know, various different things. But

1301
01:21:27,560 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 3: it also makes it you know, distasteful, maybe the wrong word,

1302
01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:35,599
Speaker 3: but it is one where you know, individuals like myself many.

1303
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:37,880
Speaker 3: I mean, there was that famous clip going around of

1304
01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:40,040
Speaker 3: a guy who in Minneapolis who was like, listen, I'm

1305
01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:42,760
Speaker 3: right leaning, but this seems crazy, right, And I do

1306
01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:45,960
Speaker 3: think that what that ignored is that there were two

1307
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:49,240
Speaker 3: different choices that the administration could have chosen to go

1308
01:21:49,360 --> 01:21:51,759
Speaker 3: about this type of thing. One is actually the initial

1309
01:21:51,880 --> 01:21:57,479
Speaker 3: Florida approach, which was Everify. Everify punishes businesses, employers, and

1310
01:21:57,560 --> 01:22:01,280
Speaker 3: makes it structurally and financially impossible to operate illegally in

1311
01:22:01,320 --> 01:22:04,920
Speaker 3: the country. This encourages self deportation. It doesn't require let's say,

1312
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:08,040
Speaker 3: guys with masks going door to door asking about your neighbors.

1313
01:22:08,720 --> 01:22:13,080
Speaker 3: The other, which they chose, was ice, and then they publicize,

1314
01:22:13,360 --> 01:22:16,080
Speaker 3: you know, much of this action as like a show

1315
01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:19,599
Speaker 3: of strength, the show to Americans that they're like in control.

1316
01:22:20,120 --> 01:22:22,160
Speaker 3: I think that they're really losing the country in the

1317
01:22:22,200 --> 01:22:26,759
Speaker 3: message on this one. And I think the more though,

1318
01:22:26,880 --> 01:22:29,000
Speaker 3: just like an international affairs that's what the first hour

1319
01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:31,320
Speaker 3: and a half of our show has been about. The

1320
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:34,240
Speaker 3: more that they lose some of the support, it actually

1321
01:22:34,360 --> 01:22:37,479
Speaker 3: kind of ratchets things up in a more dangerous direction

1322
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:43,519
Speaker 3: because the administration always doubles, triples, quadruples down. And that's

1323
01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:45,920
Speaker 3: where that is where I have feared. I don't I'm

1324
01:22:45,960 --> 01:22:48,599
Speaker 3: not afraid of a civil war. I still have relative

1325
01:22:48,600 --> 01:22:51,559
Speaker 3: faith in our justice system. Remember that a judge ruled

1326
01:22:51,720 --> 01:22:56,160
Speaker 3: multiple times against the Trump deployment to Los Angeles and

1327
01:22:56,280 --> 01:23:00,519
Speaker 3: rulely restored state control. I'm not going to even an

1328
01:23:00,520 --> 01:23:03,280
Speaker 3: insurrection act. By the way, sometime this week and the

1329
01:23:03,320 --> 01:23:05,839
Speaker 3: next month, the tariffs are likely going down at the court.

1330
01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:08,200
Speaker 1: Uh, there has been maybe.

1331
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:09,880
Speaker 2: Although I don't know why the Supreme Court is dragging

1332
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:10,519
Speaker 2: their freaking feet.

1333
01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:11,840
Speaker 1: I don't know why they're dragging their feet.

1334
01:23:11,880 --> 01:23:13,840
Speaker 2: For a long time that we thought this decision was coming,

1335
01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:14,720
Speaker 2: and it still doesn't come.

1336
01:23:14,760 --> 01:23:17,639
Speaker 3: But anyway, fair, I still think it's near ninety two

1337
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:20,040
Speaker 3: hundred percent that they're going to I would be stunned

1338
01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:22,439
Speaker 3: if they ruled against them. I guess anything is possible.

1339
01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:24,040
Speaker 3: Uh anyways, yeah, go ahead.

1340
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:26,519
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a lot to what you say,

1341
01:23:26,560 --> 01:23:29,519
Speaker 2: because I think it's I think we should almost put

1342
01:23:29,560 --> 01:23:32,479
Speaker 2: the conversation about immigration aside because I don't think this

1343
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:35,160
Speaker 2: is what that's This is not about immigration. I mean,

1344
01:23:35,479 --> 01:23:38,000
Speaker 2: even if you just soger, even if you just were

1345
01:23:38,040 --> 01:23:42,479
Speaker 2: going to go to the place where most undocumented immigrants are,

1346
01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:46,559
Speaker 2: it is not Minneapolis. Like it's something like two percent

1347
01:23:47,200 --> 01:23:52,240
Speaker 2: of the immigrant population in Minneapolis is undocumented. It's a

1348
01:23:52,400 --> 01:23:55,360
Speaker 2: very small percentage. Most of the you know, the Somali

1349
01:23:55,400 --> 01:23:58,599
Speaker 2: immigrants that either are so upset about, they almost all

1350
01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:02,519
Speaker 2: are American citizens, many of them born in the United States.

1351
01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:04,880
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of the Somali immigration happened in

1352
01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:08,160
Speaker 2: the early nineties. The vast majority of them are either

1353
01:24:08,240 --> 01:24:13,200
Speaker 2: naturalized or born in the United States American citizens. So

1354
01:24:13,560 --> 01:24:18,280
Speaker 2: it really is much more about this show of crushing,

1355
01:24:18,360 --> 01:24:22,760
Speaker 2: descent of retribution against the opposition. And you can see that,

1356
01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:24,640
Speaker 2: you know, in the way Trump is moving now. So

1357
01:24:26,040 --> 01:24:29,720
Speaker 2: they're investigating the dj is investigating Mayor Jacob Fray of

1358
01:24:29,760 --> 01:24:33,280
Speaker 2: Minneapolis and Governor Tim Walls. They're not you know, to

1359
01:24:33,320 --> 01:24:35,040
Speaker 2: your point about the justice system and sort of like

1360
01:24:35,160 --> 01:24:37,240
Speaker 2: yes and no, because on the one hand, you did

1361
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:41,520
Speaker 2: have a judge in Minneapolis check some of the tactics,

1362
01:24:41,600 --> 01:24:45,639
Speaker 2: absolutely insane tactics that they are using. And you saw

1363
01:24:45,720 --> 01:24:49,280
Speaker 2: judges in Chicago who aggressively check some of their tactics

1364
01:24:49,280 --> 01:24:51,760
Speaker 2: to such an extent that they basically were forced to

1365
01:24:51,880 --> 01:24:54,120
Speaker 2: leave because they could not operate in the same manner

1366
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:57,000
Speaker 2: in Chicago. But at the same time you see that,

1367
01:24:57,400 --> 01:25:00,120
Speaker 2: you also see that they are not even going to

1368
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:03,839
Speaker 2: investigate Jonathan Ross. They're certainly not going to be any charges,

1369
01:25:03,880 --> 01:25:05,360
Speaker 2: but they're not even going to do the pretense of

1370
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:09,160
Speaker 2: an investigation. Instead, they want to investigate Renee Good's wife

1371
01:25:09,560 --> 01:25:13,559
Speaker 2: for domestic terrorism. So yes, when these things get to

1372
01:25:13,640 --> 01:25:17,480
Speaker 2: the courts, there have been some areas where there's been pushback,

1373
01:25:17,479 --> 01:25:20,080
Speaker 2: although it happens too slow and then they ignore aspects

1374
01:25:20,120 --> 01:25:23,840
Speaker 2: of it, etc. But then you also have this, you know,

1375
01:25:23,880 --> 01:25:26,200
Speaker 2: this sort of CARVAP where you've got Jadvance saying, Hey,

1376
01:25:26,240 --> 01:25:30,000
Speaker 2: these ice officers and other federal agents they operate with

1377
01:25:30,040 --> 01:25:34,040
Speaker 2: quote unquote absolute immunity. That is the way that they

1378
01:25:34,200 --> 01:25:37,559
Speaker 2: view it. And I actually I talked to Pisco last

1379
01:25:37,560 --> 01:25:39,839
Speaker 2: week for Crystal comin Friends, and he put some pieces

1380
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:41,800
Speaker 2: together for me that I hadn't thought. I sort of

1381
01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:44,080
Speaker 2: thought Jade Vance was just like it was like a

1382
01:25:44,160 --> 01:25:45,920
Speaker 2: rhetorical flourish, this.

1383
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:47,760
Speaker 1: Absolute community thing.

1384
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:50,679
Speaker 2: So his view is, and I think that this makes

1385
01:25:50,720 --> 01:25:53,720
Speaker 2: some sense, that that is their actual recall Jade Vance

1386
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:57,920
Speaker 2: Yelle trained lawyer, right, So he understands the law that

1387
01:25:58,040 --> 01:26:02,919
Speaker 2: they are putting together, the Supreme Court decision that granted

1388
01:26:02,920 --> 01:26:06,799
Speaker 2: Trump immunity in the exercise of his duties. They're putting

1389
01:26:06,840 --> 01:26:11,240
Speaker 2: that together with the unitary executive theory, which says all

1390
01:26:11,360 --> 01:26:14,559
Speaker 2: power in the executive is vested in Trump. Therefore, when

1391
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:19,120
Speaker 2: these ice agents are out, you know, pepper spray, assaulting people,

1392
01:26:19,240 --> 01:26:24,559
Speaker 2: et cetera, that they are their power comes directly from Trump,

1393
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:27,400
Speaker 2: from that unitary executive, and therefore, if he is immune,

1394
01:26:27,400 --> 01:26:31,480
Speaker 2: they are also immune. And so when JD. Vance's absolute immunity,

1395
01:26:31,760 --> 01:26:34,799
Speaker 2: that that is actually their legal theory of the case,

1396
01:26:35,200 --> 01:26:38,879
Speaker 2: that these guys can literally do anything in the context

1397
01:26:38,960 --> 01:26:41,880
Speaker 2: of the exercise of their duties. And because of this

1398
01:26:42,080 --> 01:26:47,000
Speaker 2: extreme legal rationale, they actually believe that they have complete

1399
01:26:47,000 --> 01:26:50,040
Speaker 2: and total quote unquote absolute community.

1400
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:51,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1401
01:26:51,160 --> 01:26:53,600
Speaker 2: I had neither, but it does make some kind of

1402
01:26:54,560 --> 01:26:55,479
Speaker 2: takes some sense to me.

1403
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:57,679
Speaker 1: I had taken it as rhetorical. I mean, look, look,

1404
01:26:57,720 --> 01:26:59,519
Speaker 1: I mean, can I ignore that, No, you know.

1405
01:26:59,600 --> 01:27:04,800
Speaker 3: Do you know why, Because if we think too, you know,

1406
01:27:04,840 --> 01:27:07,679
Speaker 3: in the aftermath of like bombing the boats and all that,

1407
01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:11,519
Speaker 3: there was an effective adoption of this Bush style John

1408
01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:16,120
Speaker 3: wu memo legalism of the unitary executive theory, So it

1409
01:27:16,200 --> 01:27:17,719
Speaker 3: is potentially possible.

1410
01:27:18,720 --> 01:27:20,040
Speaker 1: I saw it as.

1411
01:27:20,200 --> 01:27:24,120
Speaker 3: Look, I mean, this was one of those where the

1412
01:27:24,200 --> 01:27:27,240
Speaker 3: lesson that right wing politicians have learned is you never

1413
01:27:27,280 --> 01:27:29,280
Speaker 3: throw a cop under the bus in one of these

1414
01:27:29,400 --> 01:27:31,839
Speaker 3: we give no inches to the left, you know, period,

1415
01:27:31,920 --> 01:27:35,400
Speaker 3: because if we do, it will turn into a George

1416
01:27:35,439 --> 01:27:38,280
Speaker 3: Floyd Blm situation where nothing's enough and they're going to

1417
01:27:38,360 --> 01:27:40,559
Speaker 3: riot and defund the police and do all this stuff. Anyway,

1418
01:27:40,800 --> 01:27:44,200
Speaker 3: I am somewhat sympathetic to that argument, considering the last

1419
01:27:44,280 --> 01:27:46,799
Speaker 3: like fifteen years and the way that the entire movement

1420
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:49,880
Speaker 3: has has gone. However, I do think that this one

1421
01:27:50,120 --> 01:27:54,960
Speaker 3: was a little bit different because some sense of normalcy. Actually,

1422
01:27:55,000 --> 01:27:57,280
Speaker 3: I don't think it would have really been some sort

1423
01:27:57,280 --> 01:28:00,559
Speaker 3: of like left wing giveaway. But I mean, look, they

1424
01:28:00,840 --> 01:28:03,920
Speaker 3: operate under a don't give an inch, you know philosophy,

1425
01:28:04,640 --> 01:28:06,880
Speaker 3: and that is one where you also see this in

1426
01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:09,880
Speaker 3: the potential true of deployment. I will say I do

1427
01:28:10,000 --> 01:28:12,439
Speaker 3: think part of the reason, and you can correct me

1428
01:28:12,439 --> 01:28:14,280
Speaker 3: if I'm wrong. Isn't one of the reasons that the

1429
01:28:14,360 --> 01:28:17,680
Speaker 3: National Guard was mobilized by the governor is specifically to

1430
01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:22,040
Speaker 3: preempt federal action, to say or to show now, right,

1431
01:28:22,040 --> 01:28:26,360
Speaker 3: But I know it was specifically activated to quell protest

1432
01:28:26,439 --> 01:28:29,639
Speaker 3: activity and potential violence, which, by the way, I think

1433
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:31,519
Speaker 3: is the responsible thing to do. That's what you're supposed

1434
01:28:31,520 --> 01:28:33,840
Speaker 3: to do when you're a state, and many of them

1435
01:28:33,920 --> 01:28:36,880
Speaker 3: did not operate that way back in twenty twenty, which

1436
01:28:37,120 --> 01:28:39,639
Speaker 3: again leads to kind of the moment where we are now.

1437
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:42,000
Speaker 3: I don't have a lot of sympathy for any of

1438
01:28:42,000 --> 01:28:45,000
Speaker 3: the characters who are currently kind of involved here, and

1439
01:28:45,040 --> 01:28:47,120
Speaker 3: I don't think that that should kind of be a surprise.

1440
01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:48,559
Speaker 1: But yeah, I was just.

1441
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:50,719
Speaker 3: Thinking and kind of like ruminating in over the last

1442
01:28:51,000 --> 01:28:54,160
Speaker 3: couple of days, is to like, what does this all mean?

1443
01:28:55,280 --> 01:28:59,480
Speaker 3: And I think it operates under a theory of division,

1444
01:29:00,360 --> 01:29:03,120
Speaker 3: and I think that that has been used and was

1445
01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:07,040
Speaker 3: to tremendous political benefit. I do wonder though, if it's

1446
01:29:07,320 --> 01:29:11,080
Speaker 3: just like the what I referenced to our discussion on Greenland,

1447
01:29:11,280 --> 01:29:13,800
Speaker 3: it works until it doesn't work, right. It seems to

1448
01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:15,840
Speaker 3: me that it's not working right now. I could be

1449
01:29:15,880 --> 01:29:18,599
Speaker 3: totally wrong, but they have They have a totally different theory, Crystal.

1450
01:29:18,600 --> 01:29:20,400
Speaker 1: When I talk to them, they I think I'm an idiot.

1451
01:29:20,760 --> 01:29:23,760
Speaker 2: I think that connection is absolutely correct. They've lost I mean,

1452
01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:28,160
Speaker 2: they've lost the public. Trump's approval rating is very low.

1453
01:29:28,479 --> 01:29:30,760
Speaker 2: The midterms are going to be a blood bath. And

1454
01:29:30,800 --> 01:29:34,800
Speaker 2: so what do you do when you're losing the popularity

1455
01:29:35,320 --> 01:29:38,799
Speaker 2: the public support. You crack down, right, you make people afraid.

1456
01:29:39,000 --> 01:29:42,800
Speaker 2: You try to crush the opposition. And this is you know,

1457
01:29:42,840 --> 01:29:46,000
Speaker 2: this has been happening to varying degrees throughout all of

1458
01:29:46,040 --> 01:29:48,679
Speaker 2: Trump two point zero. They're sort of trying to wage

1459
01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:51,600
Speaker 2: this like win this final battle against any sort of

1460
01:29:51,600 --> 01:29:54,120
Speaker 2: political opposition, as if that's a thing that can occur

1461
01:29:54,200 --> 01:29:57,080
Speaker 2: in anything that has a semblance of democracy. There is

1462
01:29:57,120 --> 01:29:59,800
Speaker 2: no final victory against the opposition, but that's what they're

1463
01:29:59,800 --> 01:30:04,960
Speaker 2: trying to achieve, and this is the latest escalation of that,

1464
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:08,720
Speaker 2: and it's becoming more and more difficult and avoid an

1465
01:30:08,800 --> 01:30:12,920
Speaker 2: actual direct confrontation. And that's you know, you see that

1466
01:30:13,040 --> 01:30:15,960
Speaker 2: parallel in the foreign policy as well. That's why the

1467
01:30:15,960 --> 01:30:18,679
Speaker 2: defence budget is so large, That's why the ice budget

1468
01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:22,599
Speaker 2: is so large. That's where they're investing, rather than trying to,

1469
01:30:23,280 --> 01:30:25,639
Speaker 2: you know, make life better and actually appeal to people

1470
01:30:25,680 --> 01:30:28,320
Speaker 2: and have popular support. It's like, no, we're going to

1471
01:30:28,439 --> 01:30:31,120
Speaker 2: use the hammer because that's what you know, that's the

1472
01:30:31,160 --> 01:30:31,720
Speaker 2: tool that they say.

1473
01:30:31,800 --> 01:30:33,519
Speaker 3: Got one of the great ironies of all this because

1474
01:30:33,560 --> 01:30:35,120
Speaker 3: you know, you and I have talked about if when

1475
01:30:35,120 --> 01:30:37,240
Speaker 3: people are rich and they're fat and happy, they don't

1476
01:30:37,280 --> 01:30:39,439
Speaker 3: it wouldn't care nearly as much. But I think that's

1477
01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:42,200
Speaker 3: part of what is galling. I think I'm not saying

1478
01:30:42,200 --> 01:30:44,160
Speaker 3: it should still happen. I'm just saying though, that you know,

1479
01:30:44,240 --> 01:30:46,799
Speaker 3: when the economy and all of that is going.

1480
01:30:46,680 --> 01:30:50,080
Speaker 2: Very well, we'll tolerate a lot. Cool will tolerate suoritarianism.

1481
01:30:50,320 --> 01:30:51,160
Speaker 2: If life is good.

1482
01:30:51,320 --> 01:30:54,439
Speaker 3: They will look at Guangzhou, look at life in guang Hoe,

1483
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:58,120
Speaker 3: and in Shanghai and in Beijing.

1484
01:30:58,320 --> 01:30:58,960
Speaker 1: They're living the.

1485
01:30:59,000 --> 01:31:01,920
Speaker 3: High life compared to where they were fifteen years ago. Yeah,

1486
01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:03,519
Speaker 3: you get your face scanned a lot. You have a

1487
01:31:03,560 --> 01:31:06,040
Speaker 3: social credit score system, and if you tweet or say

1488
01:31:06,040 --> 01:31:08,439
Speaker 3: anything bad, you're gonna get your ass dragged to a

1489
01:31:08,439 --> 01:31:08,960
Speaker 3: police station.

1490
01:31:09,320 --> 01:31:10,519
Speaker 1: They tolerate it quite well.

1491
01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:13,679
Speaker 3: In Singapore, you literally can't chew gum I was recently

1492
01:31:13,680 --> 01:31:15,439
Speaker 3: talking to a Singaporean who was amazed that I was

1493
01:31:15,479 --> 01:31:16,000
Speaker 3: chewing gum.

1494
01:31:16,200 --> 01:31:17,000
Speaker 1: He's like, oh my god.

1495
01:31:17,120 --> 01:31:19,200
Speaker 3: Right, So, like, they literally can't chew gum because people

1496
01:31:19,200 --> 01:31:21,599
Speaker 3: will spit it out, and they have paintings as part

1497
01:31:21,640 --> 01:31:24,760
Speaker 3: of their judicial system, which they justify. But they live

1498
01:31:24,800 --> 01:31:28,040
Speaker 3: a sweet life. Everybody there is basically rich. They have

1499
01:31:28,080 --> 01:31:31,280
Speaker 3: free health care, it's incredibly clean, and they have complete

1500
01:31:31,280 --> 01:31:33,599
Speaker 3: and total public order, as well as a very powerful

1501
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:36,800
Speaker 3: passport and financial banking system. So there is genuine trade

1502
01:31:36,840 --> 01:31:39,759
Speaker 3: off here that a lot of people are willing to accept.

1503
01:31:40,040 --> 01:31:43,000
Speaker 3: We however, you know, if you look at the last year,

1504
01:31:43,320 --> 01:31:46,479
Speaker 3: our quality and standard of living for the vast majority

1505
01:31:46,479 --> 01:31:49,720
Speaker 3: of our population seems more untenable while all of this

1506
01:31:49,760 --> 01:31:52,240
Speaker 3: is happening. And that's part of why I mean again,

1507
01:31:52,280 --> 01:31:55,080
Speaker 3: you know, we're getting to heightening the contradictions. Like, part

1508
01:31:55,080 --> 01:31:57,120
Speaker 3: of what you want is to heighten the contradiction between

1509
01:31:57,160 --> 01:32:00,160
Speaker 3: Blue Sak governance and a Trump vision of America. Do

1510
01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:02,800
Speaker 3: you do that, because then people are not talking about

1511
01:32:02,880 --> 01:32:05,360
Speaker 3: or they were talking or looking at something very different.

1512
01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:08,120
Speaker 3: It becomes a question around immigration instead of the economy.

1513
01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:09,679
Speaker 3: I mean, I do think that the two are linked

1514
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:12,040
Speaker 3: but here it then becomes a question of like stay

1515
01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:12,680
Speaker 3: power or not.

1516
01:32:13,240 --> 01:32:13,600
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1517
01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:16,800
Speaker 3: I think I do think it is dangerous and it's unfortunate.

1518
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:19,320
Speaker 3: I mean, part of this was fundamentally like baked in

1519
01:32:19,320 --> 01:32:24,160
Speaker 3: with Trump and like inevitable to a certain extent. But

1520
01:32:24,360 --> 01:32:29,040
Speaker 3: I do think that this is something whereas things start

1521
01:32:29,120 --> 01:32:31,559
Speaker 3: to shift away from them politically. And look, these are

1522
01:32:31,600 --> 01:32:34,280
Speaker 3: not stupid people. They know what's happening. So like like

1523
01:32:34,320 --> 01:32:36,640
Speaker 3: whenever it comes to let's say, the polls or some

1524
01:32:36,680 --> 01:32:39,320
Speaker 3: of their bigger political problems, regardless of what they may

1525
01:32:39,360 --> 01:32:41,519
Speaker 3: say in public, I can promise you that they see this.

1526
01:32:41,920 --> 01:32:45,400
Speaker 3: They can see very clearly what is happening. They just

1527
01:32:45,479 --> 01:32:47,920
Speaker 3: have a fundamentally different theory than you and I do

1528
01:32:48,320 --> 01:32:50,160
Speaker 3: about the way that politics and all of this works.

1529
01:32:50,160 --> 01:32:52,840
Speaker 3: They're like, the confrontation is good. It heightens the contradiction,

1530
01:32:53,080 --> 01:32:56,120
Speaker 3: it shows order versus chaos. It keeps the salience of

1531
01:32:56,160 --> 01:32:57,640
Speaker 3: the issue of immigration.

1532
01:32:57,800 --> 01:32:58,640
Speaker 1: It gives you know, the.

1533
01:32:58,960 --> 01:33:01,759
Speaker 3: Poverty, you know, the power or whatever of the federal government,

1534
01:33:01,760 --> 01:33:03,839
Speaker 3: and it demonstrates that like, we're not going to tolerate

1535
01:33:04,000 --> 01:33:06,639
Speaker 3: what happened back in twenty twenty two ever happen again

1536
01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:08,400
Speaker 3: and go ahead.

1537
01:33:08,520 --> 01:33:11,360
Speaker 2: They have literally made abolish ice the moderate position, a

1538
01:33:11,400 --> 01:33:14,840
Speaker 2: majority of moderates and indefinant support of Democrats. No no, no, no,

1539
01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:19,559
Speaker 2: no moderates and independence majority support abologized a year ago.

1540
01:33:19,680 --> 01:33:20,760
Speaker 1: People. Yeah, but.

1541
01:33:22,720 --> 01:33:23,120
Speaker 5: Yes.

1542
01:33:23,240 --> 01:33:27,600
Speaker 2: So Ruben Diego, who started this administration co sponsoring the

1543
01:33:27,720 --> 01:33:31,240
Speaker 2: Lake and Riley Act, just came out yesterday and said,

1544
01:33:31,320 --> 01:33:33,280
Speaker 2: I I think that he said it needs to be.

1545
01:33:34,040 --> 01:33:36,719
Speaker 2: He didn't say abolished. It was either dismantled or taken

1546
01:33:36,760 --> 01:33:40,800
Speaker 2: apart or destroyed or something of that nature. And you

1547
01:33:40,840 --> 01:33:44,360
Speaker 2: know that's that is so And the pulling on are

1548
01:33:44,400 --> 01:33:46,200
Speaker 2: you creating more order or case? I mean, I know

1549
01:33:46,240 --> 01:33:48,840
Speaker 2: you agree with this that the what people are overwhelmingly

1550
01:33:48,880 --> 01:33:52,200
Speaker 2: getting is like Minneapolis was okay and then these people

1551
01:33:52,240 --> 01:33:58,439
Speaker 2: showed up, and it's completely insane. The amount of lies,

1552
01:33:58,880 --> 01:34:03,080
Speaker 2: like the way they will just lie brazenly is it is.

1553
01:34:03,200 --> 01:34:05,000
Speaker 2: I see it all the time, and it still is

1554
01:34:05,080 --> 01:34:10,120
Speaker 2: so wild to me. So the Ice account came after

1555
01:34:10,240 --> 01:34:13,640
Speaker 2: me for sharing a Washington Post story about a detainee

1556
01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:18,799
Speaker 2: who died in ICE attention. And here's my original tweet

1557
01:34:19,040 --> 01:34:21,080
Speaker 2: where I just said, it appears that I strangled a

1558
01:34:21,160 --> 01:34:24,479
Speaker 2: detainee to death, but based on this Washington Post report,

1559
01:34:24,479 --> 01:34:26,760
Speaker 2: Breaking News and employee of El Paso County's Office of

1560
01:34:26,760 --> 01:34:29,080
Speaker 2: the Medical Examiner said it is likely to classify the

1561
01:34:29,120 --> 01:34:32,040
Speaker 2: death of Heraldo Luna's campost at an Ice detention center

1562
01:34:32,080 --> 01:34:36,200
Speaker 2: as a homicide. A detainee says he witnessed Campos being

1563
01:34:36,280 --> 01:34:40,320
Speaker 2: choked to death by guards. Okay, so you have both

1564
01:34:40,320 --> 01:34:44,240
Speaker 2: the autopsy and the eyewitness accounts that lead to this

1565
01:34:44,320 --> 01:34:47,479
Speaker 2: conclusion that this was a homicide, that the detainee was

1566
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:51,400
Speaker 2: choked to death by guards. Then you have ice say

1567
01:34:51,600 --> 01:34:54,280
Speaker 2: to me, why lie for clicks when I'm just literally

1568
01:34:54,320 --> 01:34:55,719
Speaker 2: citing this report.

1569
01:34:57,240 --> 01:34:58,759
Speaker 1: Sorry, I was just like, what clicks?

1570
01:34:58,840 --> 01:35:04,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, exactly completely yes, and like anyone, We've never

1571
01:35:04,040 --> 01:35:06,799
Speaker 2: seen a government, by the way, more interested in clicks,

1572
01:35:07,160 --> 01:35:09,840
Speaker 2: like at a world historic level than this one, which

1573
01:35:10,040 --> 01:35:12,120
Speaker 2: is why they are going back and forth with me

1574
01:35:12,479 --> 01:35:15,280
Speaker 2: a podcaster. Anyway, They go on to say that he

1575
01:35:15,439 --> 01:35:18,720
Speaker 2: violently resisted the security staff and continue to attempt to

1576
01:35:18,760 --> 01:35:22,040
Speaker 2: take his own life. Again, this is totally contrary to

1577
01:35:22,120 --> 01:35:25,759
Speaker 2: the eyewitness reports. During the ensuing struggle, Campos stopped breathing

1578
01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:29,839
Speaker 2: and lost consciousness, So apparently their story is in attempting

1579
01:35:29,880 --> 01:35:33,000
Speaker 2: to keep him from taking his own life. They accidentally

1580
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:38,240
Speaker 2: killed him. They have now sager. They are moving to

1581
01:35:38,360 --> 01:35:42,800
Speaker 2: deport the eyewitnesses that spoke to the Washington Post. They

1582
01:35:42,840 --> 01:35:47,320
Speaker 2: are moving to rapidly deport them, presumably so that they

1583
01:35:47,320 --> 01:35:51,720
Speaker 2: can no longer share their view and their eyewitness testimony

1584
01:35:51,800 --> 01:35:54,559
Speaker 2: of what happened here. And this is just the latest

1585
01:35:54,600 --> 01:35:56,880
Speaker 2: in you know, there was another incident where I'm sure

1586
01:35:56,920 --> 01:35:59,200
Speaker 2: you saw this. A family was on their way home

1587
01:35:59,240 --> 01:36:02,920
Speaker 2: from a basketball came mom, dad, and I think four

1588
01:36:03,040 --> 01:36:06,800
Speaker 2: kids in the car, and they came upon you know,

1589
01:36:06,880 --> 01:36:10,639
Speaker 2: there's like protest and ice and whatever. Ice pepper sprays

1590
01:36:10,720 --> 01:36:13,400
Speaker 2: into their vehicle. Again, they're not they are trying to

1591
01:36:13,439 --> 01:36:17,320
Speaker 2: get home. That's it. Pepper sprays into their vehicle. The

1592
01:36:17,400 --> 01:36:19,960
Speaker 2: six month old who's in the car, because this stuff

1593
01:36:20,000 --> 01:36:24,519
Speaker 2: is extremely dangerous for children, stops breathing, foaming at the mouth.

1594
01:36:24,600 --> 01:36:26,599
Speaker 2: The parents think that this child is going to die,

1595
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:31,200
Speaker 2: has to be rushed to the hospital. DHS originally again

1596
01:36:31,360 --> 01:36:34,160
Speaker 2: completely lies about this, says this, none of this happened.

1597
01:36:34,479 --> 01:36:37,479
Speaker 2: We have the family, we have eyewitness testimony, we have

1598
01:36:37,600 --> 01:36:40,520
Speaker 2: video from the scene, et cetera that was so egregious

1599
01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:43,160
Speaker 2: they had to delete it and take it down, and

1600
01:36:43,200 --> 01:36:44,880
Speaker 2: then you still have so many people who are out

1601
01:36:44,920 --> 01:36:46,479
Speaker 2: there saying, well, why did you bring a six month

1602
01:36:46,479 --> 01:36:47,599
Speaker 2: old baby to a protest?

1603
01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:48,320
Speaker 1: They didn't.

1604
01:36:48,600 --> 01:36:52,120
Speaker 2: They were just trying to get home, that's it. So,

1605
01:36:52,640 --> 01:36:54,439
Speaker 2: you know, the level of you can't even call it

1606
01:36:54,439 --> 01:36:57,400
Speaker 2: gat is just out and out fabrication that they're willing

1607
01:36:57,439 --> 01:37:00,439
Speaker 2: to engage in is absolutely crazy. Of course, we all

1608
01:37:00,479 --> 01:37:02,840
Speaker 2: saw it in the wake of the killing of Renee Good,

1609
01:37:03,160 --> 01:37:05,640
Speaker 2: where the story that came out from Christy Home and

1610
01:37:05,640 --> 01:37:10,599
Speaker 2: others immediately is just completely contradicted by what the video shows,

1611
01:37:11,080 --> 01:37:13,559
Speaker 2: and they've never walked that back. Christin Home continues to

1612
01:37:13,560 --> 01:37:16,280
Speaker 2: insist that everything she said was completely factual.

1613
01:37:16,640 --> 01:37:18,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so such a difficult you know, for me,

1614
01:37:18,840 --> 01:37:21,800
Speaker 3: because I mean, listen, I unlike I think some of

1615
01:37:21,800 --> 01:37:24,080
Speaker 3: the liberals too. I don't believe many of the activists either.

1616
01:37:24,200 --> 01:37:26,240
Speaker 3: A lot of us reports are at Renee Good were

1617
01:37:26,240 --> 01:37:29,519
Speaker 3: also bullshit and completely wrong initially about what was happening.

1618
01:37:29,560 --> 01:37:31,400
Speaker 3: So let's make sure we put that on the table.

1619
01:37:31,640 --> 01:37:32,679
Speaker 3: But the government does.

1620
01:37:32,760 --> 01:37:33,760
Speaker 1: Generally, the.

1621
01:37:37,360 --> 01:37:39,680
Speaker 3: Government has a better responsibility to try to retain some

1622
01:37:39,720 --> 01:37:42,759
Speaker 3: sort of level of credibility, you know, with the American public,

1623
01:37:43,000 --> 01:37:45,320
Speaker 3: and that is what makes talking about all of these

1624
01:37:45,360 --> 01:37:48,840
Speaker 3: incidents incredibly difficult because unless it's on video, I'm like,

1625
01:37:48,880 --> 01:37:51,800
Speaker 3: I don't believe it from either side. Literally, Like, if

1626
01:37:51,800 --> 01:37:53,840
Speaker 3: they're like, if Ice is like, this is what happened,

1627
01:37:53,880 --> 01:37:56,880
Speaker 3: I'm like, prove it, you know, release the video. If

1628
01:37:56,880 --> 01:37:59,720
Speaker 3: the liberal activists are like, oh, I mean, look, let's

1629
01:37:59,760 --> 01:38:03,080
Speaker 3: not they exaggerate everything. They They're like, you know, they're

1630
01:38:03,120 --> 01:38:05,920
Speaker 3: constantly lying about this, that, and then or whatever has happened.

1631
01:38:05,920 --> 01:38:07,960
Speaker 3: And unless it's on video from them, I'm not believing

1632
01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:10,599
Speaker 3: it either, which is part of the difficulty of kind

1633
01:38:10,600 --> 01:38:13,880
Speaker 3: of sussing out many of these types of situations. The

1634
01:38:14,120 --> 01:38:16,080
Speaker 3: you know, the detaining death first of all. I mean,

1635
01:38:16,120 --> 01:38:18,680
Speaker 3: it's like you just said, why are they even engaging

1636
01:38:19,120 --> 01:38:23,200
Speaker 3: with you on Twitter? It's preposterous, you know, for saying

1637
01:38:23,720 --> 01:38:26,920
Speaker 3: for quoting an article, you know, look, I will I

1638
01:38:26,960 --> 01:38:30,240
Speaker 3: would happily be like, oh, that's irresponsible speculation. If if

1639
01:38:30,280 --> 01:38:32,759
Speaker 3: it was like it was based on Washington Post report,

1640
01:38:33,200 --> 01:38:35,719
Speaker 3: which was you know, based on test Look, who knows

1641
01:38:35,760 --> 01:38:37,800
Speaker 3: maybe the guy was lying, right, That's why they generally

1642
01:38:37,840 --> 01:38:38,400
Speaker 3: are supposed to.

1643
01:38:38,360 --> 01:38:43,240
Speaker 2: Have an investigations that modify I was like, yeah, exactly,

1644
01:38:43,320 --> 01:38:43,759
Speaker 2: I mean.

1645
01:38:43,640 --> 01:38:46,560
Speaker 3: I know, that's why it's so crazy, the way that

1646
01:38:46,600 --> 01:38:49,000
Speaker 3: they operate. But I will say it does show how

1647
01:38:49,040 --> 01:38:51,240
Speaker 3: it's starting to get under their skin.

1648
01:38:51,320 --> 01:38:53,200
Speaker 1: The skin and their rapid.

1649
01:38:52,920 --> 01:38:59,040
Speaker 3: Response is so divorced from reality that or at least

1650
01:38:59,040 --> 01:39:03,400
Speaker 3: has been divorced reality that they have created this total

1651
01:39:03,520 --> 01:39:09,240
Speaker 3: crisis of confidence where and giving ground I think too much,

1652
01:39:09,360 --> 01:39:11,320
Speaker 3: Like you were just talking about the abolish ice, you.

1653
01:39:11,240 --> 01:39:13,919
Speaker 1: Know, community, can I say that? Or I guess.

1654
01:39:13,680 --> 01:39:19,719
Speaker 3: The anti immigration enforcement left has well within reason now

1655
01:39:19,760 --> 01:39:21,800
Speaker 3: to be able to just say everything that they say

1656
01:39:22,439 --> 01:39:26,760
Speaker 3: is not credible, right, and that creates this space for them,

1657
01:39:27,200 --> 01:39:28,960
Speaker 3: you know, to advance a lot of theirs. And so

1658
01:39:29,000 --> 01:39:31,840
Speaker 3: that's why the credibility question is always going to rely

1659
01:39:31,920 --> 01:39:34,559
Speaker 3: on the government. I mean, and as we've seen so

1660
01:39:34,720 --> 01:39:37,760
Speaker 3: many of their stuff, you know, fall apart here over

1661
01:39:37,800 --> 01:39:40,600
Speaker 3: the last couple of I guess over the last like

1662
01:39:40,720 --> 01:39:44,599
Speaker 3: year or so, that I think is actually, Look, I'm

1663
01:39:44,640 --> 01:39:47,080
Speaker 3: not naive. The government has led to us for fifty

1664
01:39:47,160 --> 01:39:50,599
Speaker 3: since you know, nineteen forty five, okay, and probably way

1665
01:39:50,640 --> 01:39:54,080
Speaker 3: before even then. However, you know, in this current age,

1666
01:39:54,160 --> 01:39:58,320
Speaker 3: especially with Twitter information and then you know, deep fakes,

1667
01:39:58,360 --> 01:40:01,559
Speaker 3: AI and all of that, et cetera, it actually means

1668
01:40:01,560 --> 01:40:05,720
Speaker 3: we're living in like a genuine post truth environment, and

1669
01:40:05,840 --> 01:40:08,559
Speaker 3: that is actually like the scariest part.

1670
01:40:08,800 --> 01:40:12,680
Speaker 2: Very disturbing, very disturbing. All right, let's go ahead and

1671
01:40:12,800 --> 01:40:15,679
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about Gavin Newsom and Ben Shapiro.

1672
01:40:16,240 --> 01:40:17,880
Speaker 2: All right, guys, I wanted to make sure to get

1673
01:40:17,920 --> 01:40:22,559
Speaker 2: this into the show. Gavin Newsom, California governor and very

1674
01:40:22,640 --> 01:40:25,360
Speaker 2: likely twenty twenty eight aspirant on the Democratic side, seen

1675
01:40:25,479 --> 01:40:28,160
Speaker 2: in a lot of circles as the front runner, decided

1676
01:40:28,160 --> 01:40:32,160
Speaker 2: to have Ben Shapiro onto his own podcast, and Ben

1677
01:40:32,400 --> 01:40:37,200
Speaker 2: challenged him on Israel and specifically whether or not Gavin

1678
01:40:37,240 --> 01:40:39,680
Speaker 2: Newsom thought they were committing a genocide. Let me go

1679
01:40:39,720 --> 01:40:44,559
Speaker 2: ahead and pull this up, because it was pretty extraordinary exchange.

1680
01:40:44,560 --> 01:40:45,960
Speaker 2: I would say, let me go ahead and play this.

1681
01:40:46,360 --> 01:40:50,080
Speaker 6: Democrats have now been dragged into this conversation, some drag

1682
01:40:50,160 --> 01:40:55,320
Speaker 6: some some run with you know, flags waving into the Conversationide.

1683
01:40:55,479 --> 01:40:56,840
Speaker 4: Yes, I mean, look at.

1684
01:40:56,960 --> 01:40:59,559
Speaker 6: Israel did not commit a genocide on Gaza. There's no

1685
01:40:59,640 --> 01:41:01,719
Speaker 6: standard by which is real committed to genocide and causers?

1686
01:41:01,720 --> 01:41:03,040
Speaker 6: Is that a factual level.

1687
01:41:02,920 --> 01:41:04,479
Speaker 7: Just legal and factual level?

1688
01:41:04,680 --> 01:41:04,880
Speaker 4: Yes?

1689
01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:06,519
Speaker 6: Yeah, what is your opinion of this?

1690
01:41:07,600 --> 01:41:13,600
Speaker 7: My opinion is I understand the tendency for people to

1691
01:41:13,760 --> 01:41:18,200
Speaker 7: make that to assert that why on the basis of

1692
01:41:18,479 --> 01:41:24,920
Speaker 7: the images and the proportionality genocide? No, No, And by

1693
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:26,000
Speaker 7: the way, I agree with.

1694
01:41:26,000 --> 01:41:30,559
Speaker 6: You, and doesn't mean that if you kill my child

1695
01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:33,520
Speaker 6: and I then kill seven criminals, that I've been disproportionate.

1696
01:41:33,560 --> 01:41:37,200
Speaker 7: I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think the But

1697
01:41:37,280 --> 01:41:41,840
Speaker 7: I understand that tendency on the basis of trying to

1698
01:41:42,000 --> 01:41:46,640
Speaker 7: reconcile the proportionate nature of how the war was ultimately.

1699
01:41:46,280 --> 01:41:48,719
Speaker 6: Conduct to question why do you why do you feel

1700
01:41:48,760 --> 01:41:53,240
Speaker 6: the need to create a permission structure for that sort

1701
01:41:53,280 --> 01:41:56,640
Speaker 6: of stuff? I mean, meaning it's not true? Why not

1702
01:41:56,760 --> 01:41:58,040
Speaker 6: you say it's not true?

1703
01:41:58,120 --> 01:41:59,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, Look, I don't know the definition or I don't

1704
01:41:59,880 --> 01:42:02,840
Speaker 7: know legal threshold. That's not my opinion, So I don't

1705
01:42:02,880 --> 01:42:05,680
Speaker 7: share the opinion this relates to genocide. I do not

1706
01:42:05,760 --> 01:42:08,080
Speaker 7: agree with that notion that.

1707
01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:10,120
Speaker 6: You don't understand that if you accuse Israel of committing

1708
01:42:10,160 --> 01:42:12,200
Speaker 6: a genocide, that now puts Israel in the position of

1709
01:42:12,240 --> 01:42:14,000
Speaker 6: it should be a pariah state, because states the commit

1710
01:42:14,040 --> 01:42:17,000
Speaker 6: genocide should be pariah state. So granting legitimacy to that

1711
01:42:17,040 --> 01:42:18,640
Speaker 6: position inherent.

1712
01:42:18,520 --> 01:42:23,280
Speaker 7: I'm not granted legitimacy. I'm just saying the devastation in

1713
01:42:23,320 --> 01:42:26,400
Speaker 7: Gaza at the human level, you've got four. Of course,

1714
01:42:26,400 --> 01:42:28,519
Speaker 7: it's terrible, no, but I think it's also important to

1715
01:42:28,560 --> 01:42:30,800
Speaker 7: absorb that a little bit more, just as it was

1716
01:42:31,280 --> 01:42:33,720
Speaker 7: sick and we were clear in our condemnation of these

1717
01:42:33,760 --> 01:42:36,080
Speaker 7: people like me as it relates to what Hamas did

1718
01:42:36,360 --> 01:42:38,920
Speaker 7: in that act of barbarism and terrorism.

1719
01:42:39,200 --> 01:42:41,479
Speaker 2: So that gives you a sense of it. It goes

1720
01:42:41,479 --> 01:42:46,240
Speaker 2: on from there. But I mean, just the lamest thing imaginable. Honestly,

1721
01:42:46,280 --> 01:42:48,000
Speaker 2: I would have more respect for him if he was

1722
01:42:48,120 --> 01:42:50,799
Speaker 2: just like, pull a better men and like I support

1723
01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:51,920
Speaker 2: Israel one hundred percent.

1724
01:42:51,960 --> 01:42:54,160
Speaker 1: I mean, he's trying to be all things to all people.

1725
01:42:54,479 --> 01:42:58,040
Speaker 2: Obviously, Ben Shapiro has a very clear and very strong

1726
01:42:58,160 --> 01:43:00,320
Speaker 2: and very in my opinion, im moral and in correct.

1727
01:43:00,320 --> 01:43:01,880
Speaker 2: If you, I mean when he says, like by what

1728
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:05,799
Speaker 2: standard it's okay, We'll look at every international body, including

1729
01:43:05,840 --> 01:43:10,160
Speaker 2: some Israeli human rights organizations that have said it's a genocide.

1730
01:43:10,240 --> 01:43:15,160
Speaker 2: Clearly this is the international consensus. But Gavin Newsom understands

1731
01:43:15,280 --> 01:43:18,200
Speaker 2: is the problem for him in the democratic primary. So

1732
01:43:18,600 --> 01:43:21,800
Speaker 2: sort of like Kamala Harris esque wants to sound some

1733
01:43:22,000 --> 01:43:25,479
Speaker 2: notes about his deep concern for humanity and how much

1734
01:43:25,520 --> 01:43:29,280
Speaker 2: empathy he feels, but ultimately he doesn't really share a

1735
01:43:29,280 --> 01:43:33,080
Speaker 2: different opinion from Ben Shapiro. So not only he satisfies

1736
01:43:33,120 --> 01:43:36,559
Speaker 2: no one and just comes off looking absolutely weak and

1737
01:43:36,640 --> 01:43:39,200
Speaker 2: pathetic and like he got smacked around by this guy

1738
01:43:39,200 --> 01:43:39,880
Speaker 2: in the six Change.

1739
01:43:40,000 --> 01:43:43,960
Speaker 3: I really don't understand his decision to do this, to

1740
01:43:44,040 --> 01:43:47,240
Speaker 3: be honest, because he got absolutely nothing out of it,

1741
01:43:47,680 --> 01:43:50,920
Speaker 3: nothing that he would say would satisfy Ben Shapiro or

1742
01:43:50,960 --> 01:43:53,400
Speaker 3: Republicans to vote for him, because he's still you know,

1743
01:43:53,520 --> 01:43:56,680
Speaker 3: against he's still a Democrat. And then he also is

1744
01:43:56,680 --> 01:44:01,160
Speaker 3: not buying himself any favors with the Democratic at this moment.

1745
01:44:01,280 --> 01:44:03,680
Speaker 3: So look, I mean, I'm not sure yet still what

1746
01:44:03,720 --> 01:44:07,160
Speaker 3: the salience of Israel a gazo will be in three years.

1747
01:44:07,640 --> 01:44:10,439
Speaker 1: But more broadly, it's about why put.

1748
01:44:10,280 --> 01:44:12,439
Speaker 3: Yourself in a position where you're gonna have to be

1749
01:44:12,520 --> 01:44:16,760
Speaker 3: oppositional at a moment where everything seems to be like

1750
01:44:16,840 --> 01:44:21,160
Speaker 3: a coalescing of the liberal left and the Democratic base

1751
01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:24,280
Speaker 3: in wanting to just fight Trump and so like that's

1752
01:44:24,560 --> 01:44:28,040
Speaker 3: where strategically it doesn't make a lot of sense. You know,

1753
01:44:28,120 --> 01:44:31,040
Speaker 3: this idea of branching out. I mean the irony too

1754
01:44:31,120 --> 01:44:34,559
Speaker 3: here is by picking Shapiro, I'm assuming his thought process

1755
01:44:34,640 --> 01:44:37,400
Speaker 3: is like, I'm going to reach out to Republicans, but

1756
01:44:37,479 --> 01:44:40,520
Speaker 3: like as you know, you know, more the more animated

1757
01:44:40,600 --> 01:44:43,960
Speaker 3: younger Republicans. Again, I'm assuming this is the choice for

1758
01:44:44,040 --> 01:44:46,080
Speaker 3: Gavin to try and to reach out to are not

1759
01:44:46,320 --> 01:44:49,040
Speaker 3: energized by Ben Shapiro. I mean, look, I mean not

1760
01:44:49,080 --> 01:44:51,320
Speaker 3: going to deny his a large audience and all that,

1761
01:44:51,360 --> 01:44:53,519
Speaker 3: but but the idea though that he is like the

1762
01:44:53,600 --> 01:44:57,479
Speaker 3: most influential let's say, you know, thought leader, or this

1763
01:44:57,560 --> 01:44:59,719
Speaker 3: is really gonna change hearts and minds.

1764
01:45:00,240 --> 01:45:00,679
Speaker 1: It didn't.

1765
01:45:00,800 --> 01:45:03,360
Speaker 3: It didn't make sense to me. And that this is my,

1766
01:45:03,680 --> 01:45:05,240
Speaker 3: oh my, my problem with Gavin.

1767
01:45:05,320 --> 01:45:06,040
Speaker 1: It's like on.

1768
01:45:06,000 --> 01:45:09,320
Speaker 3: Paper, it should all be there, and he is a

1769
01:45:09,320 --> 01:45:12,360
Speaker 3: wily operator, and he's the governor of the most populous state.

1770
01:45:12,479 --> 01:45:14,880
Speaker 3: And you know, initially he was doing the whole Steve

1771
01:45:14,920 --> 01:45:17,679
Speaker 3: Bannon thing with this podcast, but he seemed to pivot

1772
01:45:17,720 --> 01:45:20,760
Speaker 3: away from that immediately, and he did well, I think

1773
01:45:20,760 --> 01:45:23,080
Speaker 3: on the Sean Ryan Show, he held his own you know,

1774
01:45:23,360 --> 01:45:25,800
Speaker 3: with with Sean Ryan and went back and forth, and

1775
01:45:25,840 --> 01:45:29,120
Speaker 3: he came off like relatively likable, but here it really

1776
01:45:29,200 --> 01:45:32,880
Speaker 3: seemed like Ben was in charge. And so look, I mean,

1777
01:45:32,920 --> 01:45:34,840
Speaker 3: I do think the twenty twenty four election was very

1778
01:45:34,960 --> 01:45:37,720
Speaker 3: vibe based, and I do think that that's something that

1779
01:45:37,720 --> 01:45:41,760
Speaker 3: the Trump and the Trump campaign very successfully used on

1780
01:45:41,800 --> 01:45:44,920
Speaker 3: their side. And so you know, if we're just going

1781
01:45:44,960 --> 01:45:49,880
Speaker 3: off of that, it was very incongruent with somebody who

1782
01:45:49,880 --> 01:45:52,640
Speaker 3: I would expect to be more wily as an operator

1783
01:45:53,280 --> 01:45:56,519
Speaker 3: on the Democratic side. It just seems it just didn't

1784
01:45:56,560 --> 01:45:57,519
Speaker 3: make any sense.

1785
01:45:58,120 --> 01:46:00,760
Speaker 2: It's not the first time that he had this like

1786
01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:04,759
Speaker 2: major tactical stumble, and I think it's just very simple,

1787
01:46:04,960 --> 01:46:07,679
Speaker 2: like he's out of touch. He's out of touch touch

1788
01:46:07,760 --> 01:46:10,559
Speaker 2: with the country, he's out of touch with the Democratic base.

1789
01:46:10,840 --> 01:46:13,280
Speaker 2: The people he's surrounded with is mostly like he owes

1790
01:46:13,320 --> 01:46:17,160
Speaker 2: his power to donors, right, that's where his source of

1791
01:46:17,200 --> 01:46:20,639
Speaker 2: strength comes from. And so there's this other moment where

1792
01:46:21,439 --> 01:46:24,000
Speaker 2: you know, Ben challenged him on one of the things

1793
01:46:24,000 --> 01:46:28,479
Speaker 2: that the Newsom Press Office account had tweeted out, saying

1794
01:46:28,560 --> 01:46:33,400
Speaker 2: that Ice is committing state sponsored terrorism, and Newsom ended

1795
01:46:33,439 --> 01:46:36,800
Speaker 2: up agreeing with Shapiro. So it also showed you that

1796
01:46:36,920 --> 01:46:40,000
Speaker 2: like the thing that you are actually getting love from

1797
01:46:40,080 --> 01:46:43,439
Speaker 2: from the Democratic base. It's not actually you. I mean,

1798
01:46:43,439 --> 01:46:46,080
Speaker 2: we all know he doesn't run that account. It's some staffer.

1799
01:46:46,360 --> 01:46:48,719
Speaker 2: But you don't even agree with the direction of that account.

1800
01:46:48,720 --> 01:46:51,040
Speaker 2: That's actually a reflection of who you are as a

1801
01:46:51,080 --> 01:46:55,240
Speaker 2: politician whatsoever. So anytime your challenged on anything there that's

1802
01:46:55,240 --> 01:46:58,600
Speaker 2: a bit edgy, you apparently capitulate not to mention to

1803
01:46:58,640 --> 01:47:02,320
Speaker 2: the point about vibes, Like the vibes here are just

1804
01:47:02,600 --> 01:47:07,080
Speaker 2: weakness and covnitulation outside of the ideological content, which is

1805
01:47:07,120 --> 01:47:11,800
Speaker 2: appealing to absolutely no one. So you know, I at

1806
01:47:11,800 --> 01:47:15,400
Speaker 2: the beginning of the Trump two point zero he was

1807
01:47:15,400 --> 01:47:17,600
Speaker 2: having Steve Bannon on, he had Charlie Kirk on, and

1808
01:47:17,640 --> 01:47:20,120
Speaker 2: it was a very similar thing. It's Gavin is good

1809
01:47:20,160 --> 01:47:22,160
Speaker 2: at debating, but he wasn't debating these guys. He was

1810
01:47:22,240 --> 01:47:24,519
Speaker 2: letting them push their points of view, and he was

1811
01:47:24,560 --> 01:47:27,759
Speaker 2: coming towards them. It seemed like he got the message

1812
01:47:27,760 --> 01:47:29,920
Speaker 2: that this was not where the Democratic base was, that

1813
01:47:29,960 --> 01:47:32,400
Speaker 2: they were sort of disgusted with this. He pivots to

1814
01:47:32,439 --> 01:47:36,040
Speaker 2: this confrontational approach, at least with his Twitter presence, but

1815
01:47:36,080 --> 01:47:39,720
Speaker 2: when he's challenged on it at all, he immediately retreats.

1816
01:47:40,200 --> 01:47:42,599
Speaker 2: In terms of the specific issue, I mean, I do

1817
01:47:42,680 --> 01:47:45,479
Speaker 2: think for a large part of the Democratic base, it

1818
01:47:45,560 --> 01:47:49,479
Speaker 2: is this sort of moral dividing line, litmus test issue,

1819
01:47:49,520 --> 01:47:52,240
Speaker 2: because it tells you which type of democrat you are.

1820
01:47:52,560 --> 01:47:54,679
Speaker 2: Are you the type of democrat who is going to cave,

1821
01:47:54,920 --> 01:47:56,960
Speaker 2: who's going to go with where the money is going

1822
01:47:57,040 --> 01:48:00,080
Speaker 2: to go with like the you know, political powers that be.

1823
01:48:00,280 --> 01:48:02,160
Speaker 2: Are you going to be that type of democrat or

1824
01:48:02,160 --> 01:48:03,680
Speaker 2: are you going to be the type that's going to

1825
01:48:03,800 --> 01:48:06,400
Speaker 2: rock the boat and challenge the status quo. He has

1826
01:48:06,400 --> 01:48:08,920
Speaker 2: failed this test on this issue multiple times. And that's

1827
01:48:08,960 --> 01:48:11,880
Speaker 2: the other thing where I'm like, on political strategy, you know,

1828
01:48:12,000 --> 01:48:16,240
Speaker 2: this is Ben Shapiro's number one issue, Like how did

1829
01:48:16,280 --> 01:48:19,760
Speaker 2: you not anticipate that this was going to come up

1830
01:48:19,800 --> 01:48:21,800
Speaker 2: in the conversation and that you're going to have to

1831
01:48:21,800 --> 01:48:24,640
Speaker 2: have something to say about it? But the truth of

1832
01:48:24,640 --> 01:48:27,000
Speaker 2: the matter is, I mean there's really nowhere good that

1833
01:48:27,040 --> 01:48:30,760
Speaker 2: he can land because he wants to maintain you know,

1834
01:48:30,840 --> 01:48:35,880
Speaker 2: his good standing with whatever, you know, whatever elements of

1835
01:48:35,880 --> 01:48:38,720
Speaker 2: the Israel lobby or individual donors. This is important to

1836
01:48:39,160 --> 01:48:41,160
Speaker 2: while trying to signal to the Democratic base. And that's

1837
01:48:41,240 --> 01:48:44,320
Speaker 2: just no, it's it's not the kind of issue that

1838
01:48:44,360 --> 01:48:47,320
Speaker 2: you can word, weasel your way out of you're either

1839
01:48:47,400 --> 01:48:50,120
Speaker 2: on the side of the Zionist or you're not. Like

1840
01:48:50,200 --> 01:48:53,320
Speaker 2: it's just cut and dry. And so for him to

1841
01:48:53,400 --> 01:48:55,280
Speaker 2: not anticipate that that was going to be a thing

1842
01:48:55,320 --> 01:48:58,560
Speaker 2: in this conversation is really just astonished.

1843
01:48:58,560 --> 01:49:00,120
Speaker 3: And that's the funny thing, you know, with the lot

1844
01:49:00,120 --> 01:49:02,840
Speaker 3: of the Zionist donors, they're going to be like the

1845
01:49:02,920 --> 01:49:06,559
Speaker 3: fact that you even said you understood is a bridge

1846
01:49:06,600 --> 01:49:08,400
Speaker 3: too far. So it's like, really, yeah, it's like what

1847
01:49:08,600 --> 01:49:10,360
Speaker 3: and you and I know this because you know, we

1848
01:49:10,400 --> 01:49:13,920
Speaker 3: know some of these people, and it is just ironic

1849
01:49:14,160 --> 01:49:17,240
Speaker 3: just the way that he's acting. I really am genuinely

1850
01:49:17,600 --> 01:49:19,120
Speaker 3: mystified by his performance.

1851
01:49:19,200 --> 01:49:19,599
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1852
01:49:20,240 --> 01:49:23,920
Speaker 3: Some days I'm like, it seems inevitable, Gavin, and then

1853
01:49:23,960 --> 01:49:26,840
Speaker 3: some days like this one, You're like, dude, like what

1854
01:49:27,080 --> 01:49:27,960
Speaker 3: are you doing?

1855
01:49:28,040 --> 01:49:30,840
Speaker 1: And I think you know your point about out of touch?

1856
01:49:31,120 --> 01:49:33,760
Speaker 3: It just seems Look, I guess I should just never

1857
01:49:33,840 --> 01:49:36,439
Speaker 3: underestimate the ability of a politician to be out of touch,

1858
01:49:36,479 --> 01:49:39,320
Speaker 3: because that's just very clearly what this is. I mean,

1859
01:49:39,360 --> 01:49:41,559
Speaker 3: for a person who purports, you know, to have this

1860
01:49:41,680 --> 01:49:44,519
Speaker 3: staff and and to you know, again to be young

1861
01:49:44,640 --> 01:49:47,000
Speaker 3: and up and comer and a fighter. It's like it

1862
01:49:47,120 --> 01:49:50,840
Speaker 3: just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense more,

1863
01:49:51,200 --> 01:49:52,760
Speaker 3: and you know, it kind of reminds me what you

1864
01:49:52,800 --> 01:49:55,000
Speaker 3: were saying. And I do think this is important because

1865
01:49:55,000 --> 01:49:56,839
Speaker 3: this is how I think about Epstein stuff.

1866
01:49:57,240 --> 01:49:57,679
Speaker 1: Hillary.

1867
01:49:57,920 --> 01:49:59,920
Speaker 3: If you'll recall back in twenty sixteen, there was that

1868
01:50:00,120 --> 01:50:06,000
Speaker 3: whole debate around radical Islamic terrorism and Hillary just wouldn't

1869
01:50:06,040 --> 01:50:07,800
Speaker 3: say it, and it was one of those where it

1870
01:50:07,840 --> 01:50:09,240
Speaker 3: was kind of like this, She's like, well, it's not

1871
01:50:09,360 --> 01:50:12,719
Speaker 3: technically the definition and all that. But the reason why

1872
01:50:12,840 --> 01:50:16,680
Speaker 3: Trump hammered it is to show your point is that

1873
01:50:17,040 --> 01:50:19,320
Speaker 3: what they wanted to show was a Hillary was this

1874
01:50:19,520 --> 01:50:23,400
Speaker 3: mealy mouthed person who was more concerned about the you know,

1875
01:50:23,560 --> 01:50:27,120
Speaker 3: identity politics than like trying to solve the problem. And look,

1876
01:50:27,160 --> 01:50:29,320
Speaker 3: as you will recall at twenty sixteen, like we were

1877
01:50:29,439 --> 01:50:31,519
Speaker 3: literally in the middle of like the counter isis cant

1878
01:50:31,520 --> 01:50:33,840
Speaker 3: of San Bernardino attack, Like it was if you're young,

1879
01:50:33,880 --> 01:50:37,000
Speaker 3: like you don't really fully comprehend how crazy kind of

1880
01:50:37,000 --> 01:50:39,080
Speaker 3: that discussion was really at the time.

1881
01:50:39,400 --> 01:50:41,080
Speaker 1: And I remember those moments in.

1882
01:50:41,080 --> 01:50:43,040
Speaker 3: The debates where we were like, man, she's just so

1883
01:50:43,280 --> 01:50:46,320
Speaker 3: weak on this answer. She would be like I call

1884
01:50:46,360 --> 01:50:49,080
Speaker 3: it radical Jahadism or something. I'm like, but just fucking

1885
01:50:49,080 --> 01:50:51,679
Speaker 3: say Islamic terrorism at this point, because you're just wasting

1886
01:50:51,960 --> 01:50:54,000
Speaker 3: a bunch of your time and this this big gets

1887
01:50:54,080 --> 01:50:57,400
Speaker 3: like all of like any legalistic type of stuff where

1888
01:50:57,439 --> 01:51:00,000
Speaker 3: and being like trying to have sympathy, but then all

1889
01:51:00,120 --> 01:51:03,560
Speaker 3: so try to retain who you are. You know, Trump's superpower,

1890
01:51:03,720 --> 01:51:06,760
Speaker 3: I think the Republican superpower really of the last ten

1891
01:51:06,840 --> 01:51:11,200
Speaker 3: years has been the ability to just back everything and

1892
01:51:11,240 --> 01:51:13,840
Speaker 3: to never retreat from a fight. Yeah, Like, ultimately that

1893
01:51:13,920 --> 01:51:15,720
Speaker 3: was clearly great political.

1894
01:51:15,720 --> 01:51:19,240
Speaker 2: Not learned that lesson of the modern political era.

1895
01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:21,800
Speaker 3: Well, especially your staff, I mean, throwing your staff under

1896
01:51:21,800 --> 01:51:24,400
Speaker 3: the bus is insane, right, Like that's one of those

1897
01:51:24,479 --> 01:51:27,720
Speaker 3: where because now why should we believe a single tweets.

1898
01:51:28,200 --> 01:51:32,799
Speaker 2: And your whole political like Lane in the Democratic primary

1899
01:51:32,880 --> 01:51:35,080
Speaker 2: is like, I'm the guy who's going to fight Trump.

1900
01:51:35,360 --> 01:51:39,280
Speaker 2: I've got the resistance swag stylistically, and so if you

1901
01:51:39,320 --> 01:51:42,160
Speaker 2: don't have that, you've got you've got nothing and your

1902
01:51:42,200 --> 01:51:45,960
Speaker 2: donors are not going to be nearly enough. All right, guys,

1903
01:51:46,000 --> 01:51:48,880
Speaker 2: Well that does it for the show today. Sager and

1904
01:51:48,880 --> 01:51:52,040
Speaker 2: I wunt book be back in studio tomorrow. So and

1905
01:51:52,080 --> 01:51:54,320
Speaker 2: I'm sure there will be many things to discuss. In fact,

1906
01:51:54,360 --> 01:51:56,120
Speaker 2: there were many things we were not able to get

1907
01:51:56,120 --> 01:51:57,920
Speaker 2: into the show today because things are so crazy.

1908
01:51:58,080 --> 01:51:59,759
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right, all right, we'll see you all tomorrow