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Speaker 1: Welcome to the solid verbal hell that for me, I'm

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Speaker 1: a man, I'm forty. I've heard so many players say, well,

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Speaker 1: I want to be happy. You want to be happy

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Speaker 1: for a day? Edith State is that?

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Speaker 2: Whoo whoom?

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Speaker 1: And Dan and Tye.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the saliverbal boys and girls. My name

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Speaker 2: is ty hilden Brandt, my beloved co host. If you're

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Speaker 2: watching the video, not on the right side of the screen,

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Speaker 2: he's actually out of the country at the moment, enjoying

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Speaker 2: a little bit of downtime before the machine of the

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Speaker 2: season gets going. He'll be back before long. Coincidentally, though,

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Speaker 2: our guest of honor today is in the heart of

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Speaker 2: the Midwest, Chicago, Illinois, So there's that. He is Matt Brown.

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Speaker 2: You know him from the Extra Points newsletter with Matt Brown.

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Speaker 2: You know him from this podcast. We've had him on

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Speaker 2: a bunch of times to discuss all sorts of pressing issues.

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Speaker 2: One of my favorite guests, not just because he's a

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Speaker 2: great dude and has a great had a hair on them,

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Speaker 2: but I always come away feeling like I learned something

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Speaker 2: from these discussions. Matt, how you doing good.

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Speaker 1: To have It's great to be back. It's I can't

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Speaker 1: do a good Dan impression. My pizza skills are not

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Speaker 1: anywhere in that same stratosphere. But I'm always glad to

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Speaker 1: spend a little bit of time with you.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to bring you back on one more time

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Speaker 2: before the season gets going as sort of a progress

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Speaker 2: or point progress report, a checkpoint of sorts, to get

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Speaker 2: an update on where we stand in college football on

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Speaker 2: a bunch of notable topics. This is the week that

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Speaker 2: the Fitzgerald stuff went down. We can talk about that

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Speaker 2: a little bit later on, but I don't want to

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Speaker 2: start off on that note because my sense is that

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Speaker 2: everyone's already been overwhelmed by the news over the last

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Speaker 2: forty eight seventy two hours or so. It'd be malpractice

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Speaker 2: if I didn't start this without talking about the video game, sure,

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Speaker 2: because that is what brings people joy. That is inevitably

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Speaker 2: when I ask folks, what do you want me to

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Speaker 2: ask Matt Brown about, they all unanimously say the video game.

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Speaker 2: So there has been some news in the world of

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Speaker 2: EA Sports college football in that proposed boycotts have been

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Speaker 2: floated recently surrounding I guess the compensation that players will

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Speaker 2: receive for being part of this game, which I've heard

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Speaker 2: is five hundred dollars. Maybe you can clarify that one

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Speaker 2: way or another. Where do we stand with respect to

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Speaker 2: the video game? Are any of these news stories putting

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Speaker 2: the game at risk of a delayed launch or not

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Speaker 2: being launched at all? What is the latest with respect

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Speaker 2: to this thing? And will it happen next summer as

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Speaker 2: I think we've expected all along.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let me talk the collective college football internet off

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Speaker 1: the ledge a little bit. Okay, good, Nothing that has

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Speaker 1: happened over the last month should give anybody any reason

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Speaker 1: to think that the game is going to be delayed.

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Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of the speculative news stories. I've

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Speaker 1: talked to people at EA, I've talked to people in

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Speaker 1: the in the major collegiate licensing world. I've talked to

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Speaker 1: some of the other companies that bid on some of

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Speaker 1: these open some of them the group license agreements. So

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Speaker 1: they've all said the exact same thing. Let me try

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Speaker 1: to explain where you've seen some of the frustrations and

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Speaker 1: boycott information or lawsuits about this and iman kind of title,

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Speaker 1: how this works here with the game? Right, So it's

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Speaker 1: important that EA has not actually finalized a proposed contract

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Speaker 1: and sent it to any players. Yet they're not going

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Speaker 1: to do that. I believe this calendar year at all,

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Speaker 1: because we don't know who's going to be eligible to

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Speaker 1: be in the game for next year for rosters to

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Speaker 1: be settled. There is a ballpark number that's been passed around.

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Speaker 1: I saw sport COO reported this, I think on three

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Speaker 1: reported it, And when I've talked to some of the

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Speaker 1: other companies that were involved in these conversations, they said,

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Speaker 1: we can't confirm that number, but that's a ballmark. Five

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Speaker 1: hundred and six hundred and eight hundred ish dollars is

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Speaker 1: around what's being tentatively proposed, which is very different from

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Speaker 1: a lot of the other group licensing deals for professional games.

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Speaker 1: If you are in Madden, if you're an NBA two K,

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Speaker 1: if you're in MLB the show, your individual cut is

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Speaker 1: healthy four figures, if not more, and that number is

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Speaker 1: usually tied to a royalty rate, a percentage of the

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Speaker 1: sales of the game. EA might say all right, we're

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Speaker 1: going to give the NFLPA or we're going to give

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Speaker 1: you know, whatever, whatever group we're working with, a ten

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Speaker 1: percent and then we'll divide up the money. You know,

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Speaker 1: from there, right, which is not what's being talked about

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Speaker 1: here for that so far. For the college side, it

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Speaker 1: is what's happening for the schools. The schools get a

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Speaker 1: certain amount of money depending on how well they've done

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Speaker 1: in the a people over the last decade or so,

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Speaker 1: and that money comes from a percent a propos, like

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Speaker 1: a projected percentage of sales. Right, I think it's ten percent,

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Speaker 1: And if you're really good, you get like one hundred

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Speaker 1: twenty styles dollars, and at your Nebraska you get like

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Speaker 1: ten or somebody that's miss the top twenty five over

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Speaker 1: the last decade. So you're seeing a couple of different

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Speaker 1: groups express a lot of frustration with this, and it

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Speaker 1: isn't so much about the money. There's good reasons why

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Speaker 1: the player pool is going to be smaller, and we

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Speaker 1: can talk about that if people are interested. You have

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Speaker 1: the c FBPA, which is a player advocacy group led

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Speaker 1: by a guy named Jason Stall used to be a

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Speaker 1: professor of Minnesota, who was frustrated not just with the money,

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Speaker 1: but with the fact that players were not involved in

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Speaker 1: negotiating any part of this deal. Players did not select

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Speaker 1: the company that's representing them in these conversations, which is

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Speaker 1: a firm called One Team Partners. They didn't have any

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Speaker 1: conversations with EA Sports. It was just like somebody else

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Speaker 1: is making a deal and presenting the deal to you,

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Speaker 1: and they, as a player group, they feel that that's

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Speaker 1: not fair and that's why they're not getting a good

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Speaker 1: enough deal. You have another company called brand Are who

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Speaker 1: does group licensing deals for many schools in college football

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Speaker 1: right now. They represent athletes at Ohio State, Florida, Michigan,

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Speaker 1: you know, many many other schools, and if you like

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Speaker 1: by a jersey that has a player's name on it,

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Speaker 1: chances are brand Are facilitated that group licensing deal and

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Speaker 1: they pay the money to the players. And the school

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Speaker 1: and brand are suing EA because they said, you can't

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Speaker 1: do this deal with this other company, because we were

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Speaker 1: contracted to represent the players at these schools for group

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Speaker 1: licensing deals, you should be going through us, and we

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Speaker 1: would be negotiating for more money for the players. Neither

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Speaker 1: of those The thing about the either these lawsuits or

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Speaker 1: either of these complaints is that they don't impact the

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Speaker 1: development of the game. C FPPA, the College Football Players Association,

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Speaker 1: has very few active players actually involved. It's a small organization.

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Speaker 1: The bulk of the membership are ex college football players,

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Speaker 1: so current players, you know, that's not like a player's union, like,

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Speaker 1: they don't have a mandate from current players to do this.

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Speaker 1: Overwhelmingly we see this on social media. This has been

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Speaker 1: my conversation with players. They want to be in the game,

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Speaker 1: and they're not going to jeopardize not being in the

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Speaker 1: game for five hundred and seven hundred fifty bucks the

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Speaker 1: brand art. That's a lawsuit that's over money. And they

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Speaker 1: might cloak themselves in player activism and in athletic empowerment,

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Speaker 1: and they might even believe some of those things, but

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Speaker 1: fundamentally it's a dispute over contracts. EA communicated back in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and one, Hey, if we can't get player likenesses,

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Speaker 1: we're still going to make this game. We're just going

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Speaker 1: to randomize all the players and lock roster control. There's

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Speaker 1: no reason for me to think, and no reason that

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Speaker 1: EA is communicating to anybody on the record or off

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Speaker 1: the record, that they're not going to get the player licenses.

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Speaker 1: They might get nine thousand instead of eleven thousand, and

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Speaker 1: we'll have a couple of qb aggies, you know, running

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Speaker 1: around who didn't get their payperwork excited to tell me.

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Speaker 1: But that's not going to change the deal. The only

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Speaker 1: thing that would change the timeline of this game is

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Speaker 1: a schools decide we're out. We said we were in,

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Speaker 1: we're out. They're not going to shift this if they

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Speaker 1: don't have Notre Dame and Ohio State, Washington and ten

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Speaker 1: other schools. But that's that's not where we are right now.

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Speaker 1: So I would encourage everybody just relax. You're going to

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Speaker 1: get the game next summer. The licensing stuff is not

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Speaker 1: why it was delayed in the first place. It's not

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Speaker 1: why it's going to be delayed now.

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Speaker 2: Is there an ongoing conversation about what proper compensation would

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Speaker 2: look like from some of these groups, right If they're

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Speaker 2: arguing that five hundred and seven hundred whatever the final

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Speaker 2: figure isn't enough, what would be enough, Well, it's.

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Speaker 1: A great question, and for me personally, and this has

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Speaker 1: been shared by folks with the CFPP as well, the

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Speaker 1: correct answer is whatever you negotiate, like whatever the free

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Speaker 1: market sets up. The dispute here is so much that

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Speaker 1: the players weren't involved had no voice in that come

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Speaker 1: the NFLPA or the NBA players Union ask. What I

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Speaker 1: can tell you is like, it's not going to be

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Speaker 1: the same as Matt and there's a couple of reasons

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Speaker 1: for that. It's not gonna be the same as NBA

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Speaker 1: two K for one. EA Sports wants to pay for

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Speaker 1: the licenses for every single scholarship FBS player. There's eighty

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Speaker 1: five of those. We've got over one hundred and thirty

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Speaker 1: FBS teams. I have a liberal arts degree, so I'm

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Speaker 1: not great at multiplication, but that shows is over eleven thousand.

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Speaker 1: The NFLPA represents I think a little under twenty five

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Speaker 1: hundred people, So we're paying for a ton of licenses.

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Speaker 1: Of course I'm not going to be the same. There's

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Speaker 1: also the fact that when you play a college football

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Speaker 1: video game, I think this was probably your experience, it's

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Speaker 1: been mine. It's been the way most people I've talked

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Speaker 1: to you play e When you play the NBA games,

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Speaker 1: you're generally playing the Dynasty mode, and that means every year,

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Speaker 1: every six hours the game play, a corner of the

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Speaker 1: guys graduate and they turn into randomized players. So if

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Speaker 1: you played the game for four days, you're not playing

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Speaker 1: with the likenesses of anybody. Even if you did pay

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Speaker 1: for all of those. That's not the core part of

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Speaker 1: the game, the same thing that you're doing Road for Glory.

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Speaker 1: You're playing like a single player. I'm gonna be the QB,

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Speaker 1: I notre dame all the guys. Graduate you play Madden,

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Speaker 1: PA Mahomes is going to be part of your Madden experience.

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Speaker 1: But unless you play for like two months, because he's

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Speaker 1: going to be in the NFL for another decade and

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Speaker 1: like and those those. You know, that's the same thing

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Speaker 1: for for the NBA or for most other sports. So

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Speaker 1: the end of value of an individual license is going

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Speaker 1: to be lower. All that's the fact we haven't had

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Speaker 1: this game for a decade and projecting sales numbers is

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Speaker 1: more complicated. All those are reasons why that number is

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Speaker 1: going to be substantially lower, whether it's five hundred, nine

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Speaker 1: hundred one thousand like for me, I don't think that

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Speaker 1: that really changes the conversation that much. It's more about

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Speaker 1: who is involved in the room, and that's honestly a

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Speaker 1: more difficult question to answer without a union and without

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Speaker 1: some level of professionalization.

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Speaker 2: One more question on the game that I promise we'll

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Speaker 2: get to some other subjects totally separate from the whole

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Speaker 2: compensation boycott piece of this. Have we learned anything new

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Speaker 2: since we last chatted a couple months ago about what

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Speaker 2: the game's actually going to be like, gameplay modes, what

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Speaker 2: are realistic expectations for folks like you and I. Look,

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Speaker 2: we're older now than we were the last time we

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Speaker 2: played this game.

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Speaker 1: I know I didn't have this gray hair right the

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Speaker 1: last time. My knees didn't make snap crackle and pops

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Speaker 1: sounds and I turned on my Xbox. It's been a minute.

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Speaker 2: It's been a minute, but I think we're still pretty

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Speaker 2: excited about it because there is this sense of nostalgia.

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Speaker 2: It was a big part of I think the college

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Speaker 2: experience for many of us certainly played a role in

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Speaker 2: our college football fandom. So we're eager to know what

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Speaker 2: are we paying for? What do we get with this

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Speaker 2: new version.

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Speaker 1: So I don't think I've written this yet, but I

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Speaker 1: can share here that I believe there's a pretty good

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Speaker 1: chance we're going to get substantially more information about gameplay

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Speaker 1: and development during this season, and I honestly wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: surprised if this comes from EA relatively early in this season,

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Speaker 1: come August September. A lot of these studios are in Orlando.

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Speaker 1: If you happen to have some big non conference matchups,

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Speaker 1: so you have some big games that are going to

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Speaker 1: be around there, maybe EA invite some of those guys

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Speaker 1: to the studios to begin some motion capture, some facial capture,

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Speaker 1: Like that's a way to kind of begin this sort

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Speaker 1: of conversation. When I've talked to people involved with the game,

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Speaker 1: a lot of residence to talk about specific gameplay features

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Speaker 1: because a lot of that's still under development. But what

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Speaker 1: has been reiterated to me multiple times is EA believes

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Speaker 1: the flagship mode of this game is Dynasty. It's not

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Speaker 1: Ultimate Team Good, which I know freaks everybody on the

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Speaker 1: internet out. I'm told ultimate Team is that there's going

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Speaker 1: to be a part of that in the game that

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Speaker 1: are like, we recognize that the bread and butter of

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Speaker 1: this is dynasty mode. One of the things that I've

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Speaker 1: been told is they wanted to really revamp how recruiting worked.

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Speaker 1: And part of that is because recruiting and player acquisition

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Speaker 1: and roster management look very different now than they did

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Speaker 1: twenty fourteen. Nil Transfer portal that's part of the game.

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Speaker 1: But I was also told they want to change the loop,

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Speaker 1: you know, Like, you know, I actually have the most

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Speaker 1: recent game set up in my office. I have my

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Speaker 1: TV kind of off screen here, and I've played it

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Speaker 1: a decent amount over the summer. I've lied to myself

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Speaker 1: and said it was for work.

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Speaker 2: Same yeah, same here.

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Speaker 1: But you know what people have been telling me is like,

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Speaker 1: we want to make this so during the week to

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Speaker 1: week gameplay of the season and you're doing your game

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Speaker 1: and you're doing recruiting, that you develop a sense of

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Speaker 1: excitement to be playing with the players that you're recruiting

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Speaker 1: right now to kind of continue the loop and you

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Speaker 1: have a sense of continued satisfaction and achievement in recruiting

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Speaker 1: from week to weeks, because beforehand you may not get

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Speaker 1: a commitment until week seven or week eight. The first

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks would be pretty fluid. But like, if

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Speaker 1: you have a guy that you're recruiting, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be a speedster, and you know that he's going to

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Speaker 1: start to be your third wide receiver as a true freshman,

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Speaker 1: he's going to change your playbook. EA wants you to

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Speaker 1: the player to know that in week three and then like,

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Speaker 1: I want to keep playing because I can't wait to

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Speaker 1: work this guy in here. I know him, I've played

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Speaker 1: with him a little bit better, which I think is different.

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Speaker 1: I know also that they have reached out to not

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Speaker 1: only coaches, but some reporters for advice on how to

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Speaker 1: make this process more realistic. A lot of those guys

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Speaker 1: signed NBAS, so we can't completely pump them for information.

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Speaker 1: You probably know who some of them are. So I

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Speaker 1: tell everybody, I can't promise you that the game is

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Speaker 1: going to be good. I wish that I could. I've

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Speaker 1: played EA games before. Some of them are amazing, some

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Speaker 1: of them are EA games. What I can't promise you

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Speaker 1: is that this is not a matain Ree skin and

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Speaker 1: that this team is dedicating a lot of time to

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Speaker 1: make this as realistic a college football game as possible

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Speaker 1: heading into twenty three.

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Speaker 2: I think in July twenty twenty three, that's enough, frankly,

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Speaker 2: to assuage a lot of concerns.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the hope, right, Like, I mean, I understand,

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Speaker 1: like every time I write about something about the game,

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Speaker 1: mine mentions in my email and I check read it.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it's just people, you know, crapping on the company,

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Speaker 1: or like, how could you possibly have high expectations for this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm gonna play it no matter what. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure it's going to be fun. But I think many

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Speaker 1: of the kneeds. Your negative reactions are a little are

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Speaker 1: honestly a little bit unfair given what I know is

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Speaker 1: going on here. I know this company has always deserved

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Speaker 1: the benefit of the doubt, but it's if it's bad,

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Speaker 1: I think it'll be bad in a new way. I

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Speaker 1: don't think you're going to see the same linebackers jumping

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Speaker 1: eleven feet in the air intercepting every pass that you

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Speaker 1: will end this game, which was kind of that was

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Speaker 1: the thing in the last couple of Xbox games, right

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Speaker 1: you had you couldn't throw over the middle. They'll be

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Speaker 1: unique books, I think in this version.

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Speaker 2: If they take away my square outs, I'm doomed. But

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Speaker 2: that's a separate So we're.

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Speaker 1: Going to have to learn new plays that RPOs didn't

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Speaker 1: exist the last time we had this here, right like

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Speaker 1: we're gonna I'm going to have to learn and grow

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Speaker 1: as a football analyst that I'm not into that.

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Speaker 2: If they're asking me to make quick decisions at eleven

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Speaker 2: PM when I'm tired from editing all day, it could

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Speaker 2: be sort of a nightmare, but I'm excited. Nonetheless, I

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Speaker 2: appreciate the update. Keep us in the loop. If you

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Speaker 2: hear anything new, we'll of course bring you back on

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Speaker 2: if and when. I did want to shift gears, though,

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Speaker 2: because there's a lot going on in your world. In particular,

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Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about this Mountain West San

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Speaker 2: Diego State thing that is going on, which is just

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Speaker 2: high comedy and only underscores the fact that in college football,

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Speaker 2: the real uniqueness, the real lifeblood of this thing is

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Speaker 2: the fact that nobody's actually running it where things stand,

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Speaker 2: and hopefully you can provide a little bit of clarity here.

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Speaker 2: I know you've done some reporting on this. San Diego

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Speaker 2: State is reportedly interested in joining the PAC twelve if

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Speaker 2: and when an invitation comes, presumably after the PAC twelve

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Speaker 2: seals the deal on some media rights agreement, which has

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Speaker 2: taken far too long and they've dragged their feet, and

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Speaker 2: maybe it's because there's not a great deal to be had,

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Speaker 2: who knows. Hopefully we'll find that out sooner than later.

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Speaker 2: San Diego State, though, has been put into a bit

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Speaker 2: of a box because if they wanted to declare any

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Speaker 2: intentions to leave for twenty twenty four and join the

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Speaker 2: PAC twelve. They needed to notify the Mountain West before

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Speaker 2: July one, or I guess June thirtieth was sort of

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Speaker 2: their final cutoff. Otherwise they had to pay a full

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Speaker 2: exit fee of thirty four million dollars, which of course

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Speaker 2: they did not want to do. So they kind of

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Speaker 2: did like a halfway thing, I guess, shrouded in a

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Speaker 2: bit of legal eese, in that they sent a letter

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Speaker 2: announcing their intention to resign, but they did not mean

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Speaker 2: that they were actually resigning, right. It kind of gave

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Speaker 2: them a little bit of like wiggle room maybe open

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Speaker 2: to interpretation.

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Speaker 1: Are they leaving? Are they not leaving?

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Speaker 2: The Mountain West says, screw you, We're going to take

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Speaker 2: this as your official resignation. San Diego State has said that's.

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Speaker 1: Not what we meant.

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Speaker 2: We were just like I guess, cordially notifying them that

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Speaker 2: maybe they would at some point. What is the Mountain

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Speaker 2: West really going to kick San Diego State out?

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Speaker 1: What? I don't think they're going to do that. Although

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Speaker 1: one of the ways that I've had a couple of

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Speaker 1: my readers kind of described the situation, which feels apt

357
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Speaker 1: is if you're if you're at dinner with your wife

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Speaker 1: and you mentioned, hey, I'm thinking about filing for divorce

359
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Speaker 1: at a future date. You can't be surprised as she

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Speaker 1: comes back with papers like the next day, even though

361
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Speaker 1: you were like you about this, We're gonna see what

362
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Speaker 1: We're gonna see what Judy from accounting thinks about me,

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Speaker 1: and then we're gonna reevaluate, like no, then she's gonna

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Speaker 1: leave you.

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Speaker 3: And that's a little bit of this situation here where

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Speaker 3: in both in public and in private, like I can

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Speaker 3: report San Diego State has been very upfront about wanting

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Speaker 3: to be in the PAC twelve.

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Speaker 1: Nobody in the Mountain West is surprised by any contents

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Speaker 1: of this letter, Like these are things that have been

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Speaker 1: communicated in privately. I think the administration of San Diego

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Speaker 1: State was thinking, Hey, if we over communicate and let

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Speaker 1: them know about what's going on here, maybe we can

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Speaker 1: get a little bit of flexibility around this deadline, because

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Speaker 1: if we we probably can't make June thirtieth, but we

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Speaker 1: could probably make September thirtieth, and maybe we can say

377
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Speaker 1: we can find a way to save some of this

378
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,080
Speaker 1: extra seventeen million dollars deal. And to be fair, that's

379
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Speaker 1: not an irrational thought process because the way it just

380
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,320
Speaker 1: works most of the time, as the bylaws will say,

381
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Speaker 1: there's one exit fee, and then what people actually pay

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Speaker 1: and the schedule they pay it is something different. And

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00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,520
Speaker 1: it's happened with Texas and Oklahoma, and happen with teams

384
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Speaker 1: leading the Ohio Valley Conference, and happen with teams leading

385
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,920
Speaker 1: the American Maybe you agree to pay more over a

386
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,320
Speaker 1: longer period of time, maybe you pay less, but you

387
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,879
Speaker 1: paid upfront, like San Diego State is ultimately good for

388
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,439
Speaker 1: the whole thirty four million dollars, especially because they're going

389
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Speaker 1: to be getting a raise if they go to the

390
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,640
Speaker 1: PAC twelve. But they don't have that liquid They need

391
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Speaker 1: all of the liquid money they can get to build

392
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Speaker 1: stuff and hire people to get ready to play Oregon

393
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,359
Speaker 1: in Washington and Stanford on a regular basis. What I

394
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Speaker 1: think is going to happen is eventually San Diego State

395
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,400
Speaker 1: is going to go to the PAC twelve and there's

396
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Speaker 1: going to be some loyally conversation here and San Diego

397
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,080
Speaker 1: State ends up paying like twenty nine million instead of

398
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Speaker 1: thirty four million or something. You have to act tough

399
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Speaker 1: in correspondence because you don't want to remove your negotiating

400
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,439
Speaker 1: leverage here. But it's in the Mountain West's best interest

401
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,080
Speaker 1: to not just kick them out out of spite, because

402
00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:00,280
Speaker 1: the Mountain West needs San Diego State for the television reference,

403
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,199
Speaker 1: right now only has I think two or three schools

404
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 1: in top forty television markets, and one of them in

405
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,359
Speaker 1: San Jose State, which doesn't have a whole lot of fans.

406
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,000
Speaker 1: Isn't exactly delivering eyeballs at a big market. There is

407
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,119
Speaker 1: a big concern that is San Diego State leaves, Fox

408
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:17,760
Speaker 1: and CBS are going to come back to the mount

409
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,080
Speaker 1: of West and saying we've got to renegotiate the deal.

410
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,119
Speaker 1: We're not going to pay you four million dollars a

411
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,160
Speaker 1: year for Wyoming Utah State anymore now that we've lost

412
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,199
Speaker 1: this huge population center. So they're not going to kick

413
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,960
Speaker 1: them out, even if they're really mad at them. If

414
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,600
Speaker 1: the worst case scenario, the PAC twelve falls apart, there's

415
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,720
Speaker 1: no invitation coming. San Diego State pays some kind of

416
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 1: worse sorry four million dollar embarrassment fee and they stick around,

417
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,919
Speaker 1: which you know, if you remember happened before San Diego

418
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 1: State was a member of the Big East for like

419
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,240
Speaker 1: twenty minutes have been had had to go pay a

420
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 1: fee if you want to go play through like the

421
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,200
Speaker 1: old Wikipedia, you know, membership timeline. They're back at Boise State.

422
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 1: Was in the Big East for like an hour and

423
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,440
Speaker 1: this whole thing that's kind of where we are. I

424
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 1: understand that it's funny from the outside and it looks

425
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 1: like nobody really knows what they're doing. Is I think

426
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 1: this is just an example of lawyering that normally happens

427
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 1: outside of the public eye. And somebody got mad about

428
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 1: tipped off reporter. We all filed foil was and then

429
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:16,440
Speaker 1: we got to see it.

430
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Speaker 2: I know it's not necessarily with respect to San Diego

431
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 2: State and the Mount West, But have you heard anything

432
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 2: on the pac twelve meteorites.

433
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,240
Speaker 1: What I've been telling people, because I hear stuff a lot. Yeah,

434
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,680
Speaker 1: And I've completely given up trying to prognosticate it because

435
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:38,120
Speaker 1: I have heard both with a certainty that it's coming

436
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 1: in two weeks and I've heard with a certainty that

437
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 1: the league is two weeks from from dissolving and being

438
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,719
Speaker 1: scattered across the wind. And I've written this here right

439
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 1: and I'm like, look, man, you know you look in

440
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,720
Speaker 1: the New Testament, and it says that nobody knows, but

441
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 1: the like not even the angels of heaven knowing Jesus

442
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,920
Speaker 1: is coming back, right Like, that's the same thing with this.

443
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: It's going to be, you know, nobody knows. And I

444
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 1: understand that there are university presidents in the Pact twelve.

445
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 1: They're leaking and trying to tell people it's coming. It's coming.

446
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,360
Speaker 1: I think it's probably going to come eventually, and it's

447
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 1: probably going to be some embarrassing distribution numbers, but the

448
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 1: money is going to be just good enough so people

449
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:23,399
Speaker 1: don't jump to the Big Twelve. But my willingness to

450
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,879
Speaker 1: give sources that benefit of the doubt about this has

451
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 1: expired a lot of the other's. I don't know what's

452
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 1: made this such a weird story. Isn't that it's taken

453
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,880
Speaker 1: this long. Actually the Big Ten took about this long too.

454
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 1: It's just that there wasn't a leak every twenty minutes.

455
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 1: And part of that is because you've got people affiliated

456
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 1: with the Big Twelve that are trying to sew fear

457
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,360
Speaker 1: and doubt and confusion. You've got a whole cottage industry

458
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 1: of YouTubers and c lists connected media analysts and very

459
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 1: retired people that are flooding the zone with information. And

460
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,120
Speaker 1: you've got people from the broadcasting companies trying to negotiate

461
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 1: in public by leaking things here, which typically isn't the case.

462
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 1: And I think that presents a public narrative of something

463
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 1: that's much more confusing than it typically is, and it

464
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 1: makes it really hard to sift through what information we

465
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 1: can trust and what we can I will say there

466
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 1: are a hell of a lot more people talking about

467
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 1: the Back twelve deal than people who are talking to

468
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 1: those who actually know about what's happening with the deal,

469
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,880
Speaker 1: because these are small groups that really really know what's

470
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 1: going on.

471
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 2: My theory is exactly yours. There's been an overabundance of

472
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 2: Big twelve friendly media. And that's not to say that

473
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 2: it's coming directly from the Big twelve. I'm sure it's

474
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 2: kind of it, So sure, I don't think it is, Yeah,

475
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 2: but my sense is that there is a lot of

476
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 2: that out in the ether and that has driven this

477
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,159
Speaker 2: narrative for better or worse. I mean, look, Brett, your

478
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 2: Mark's a New York guy. He has been very aggressive

479
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: since taking over the Big twelve. It would not supper

480
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 2: if this was one of the tactics that he was

481
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 2: attempting to try and get his conference that spans every

482
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 2: time zone here in the United States. But it just

483
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 2: feels like it's been far too much in the balance

484
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 2: of the Big Twelve much of the discussion anyway, And

485
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 2: that's why I don't fully believe it.

486
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: I think there's some real truth to that. And I'll

487
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: also say this, and this is not a criticism or

488
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: anything pejorative, but if I was a fan of a

489
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 1: Big twelve institution and at my conference had been left

490
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: for dead a couple of different times over the last decade,

491
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: and I have spent years and years of feeling that

492
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: I was looked down upon by the Ivory Tower, AAU

493
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: packed twelve institutions, and all my school US truck stops,

494
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 1: and we're not academically prestigious enough where I'm in Manhattan, Kansas,

495
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 1: and you get feel for a minute that you can

496
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: turn the tables. Yeah, of course you're going to do that. No,

497
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: I don't blame them at all. It's fun to stick

498
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 1: it in the eye At Stanford. I like to do

499
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: the same thing right like so and and so. I

500
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: think there's some level of wish casting among not just reporters,

501
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 1: but but some of the other people that are sharing

502
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 1: this information, in part because you know it was the

503
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 1: other way around for so long, and when you're in

504
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: a position to be the aggressor, it's hard, it's hard

505
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: not to want to take it.

506
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: I mean, some of us are old enough to remember

507
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 2: Texas and Oklahoma and some others joining the PAC twelve

508
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 2: and a Big twelve being on the receiving end of

509
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 2: all the jokes. So now that this thing has come

510
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 2: full circle, I don't blame them at all. They feel

511
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 2: they've got leverage, and so when you've got your advantage,

512
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 2: you press it. Whether or not they end up picking

513
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 2: off any teams from the PAC twelve, that's a separate discussion.

514
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 2: And well, I guess we'll figure out in time, whenever

515
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 2: we find out the deal behind this meteorites thing. But

516
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 2: you know, it's been a very interesting story to follow

517
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 2: on a number of different fronts, and I'm sure you've

518
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: got all sorts of people talking to you about it.

519
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 2: Let me shift gears again and talk about another thing

520
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: that you privy to that I am not, and that

521
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 2: is kind of this overarching discussion about athleticism, amateur athleticism,

522
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 2: let's say, in college sports. You came on this show,

523
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 2: I want to say about a year ago and talked

524
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 2: about the new direction of the nc double A. They

525
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 2: were hiring in essence of politician Charlie Baker, a former governor,

526
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 2: to take the reins of this thing. You speculated that's

527
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 2: because the NCBLEA recognized that its next fight was going

528
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 2: to be with the legislative bodies and not necessarily schools,

529
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: essentially trying to preserve its own existence, get some sort

530
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 2: of federal nil bill passed so that it's not all

531
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: on them. Where is the NCUBA at right now? Have

532
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 2: any of those efforts been fruitful? What are we talking

533
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 2: about a year from now with respect to the NCUBLEA.

534
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's been exactly the strategy, and the strategy has

535
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: gone much better than it has with Emmert, but not

536
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: so well that there's actually going to it's likely there's

537
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: going to be a federal bill. One of the things

538
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: that Baker I think has done well is lean on

539
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: other university presidents and other people to kind of lobby

540
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: individual lawmakers. And there has been an audience of congressional

541
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: Republicans that are broadly sympathetic to the NC double a's claims.

542
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 1: What they don't have right now, though, is enough votes.

543
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: You have the Republicans are leading. You control the US House,

544
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: but only just barely, and within that conference there's not

545
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: really broad agreement to do much of anything, and then

546
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: a lot of bills need to end up having some

547
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: kind of democratic support. The Senate is fifty to fifty,

548
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: and it's not im neatly partisan issue, because you have

549
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: some people that don't think any of this should be

550
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 1: under the purview of Congress, and you have some of

551
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: both political parties that are more sympathetic to the NC DOUBLEA,

552
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: have some much stronger pro labor lawmakers that don't want

553
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: to give the NC double anything that it's asking for. Here.

554
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: The other thing that that's changed since we've last spoken, though,

555
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: is that state houses have become much more aggressive, and

556
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: now we have new state NIL rules in Texas and

557
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: Arkansas and Missouri and now New York and potentially a

558
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: couple of other places that I think, in practice will

559
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: make it almost impossible for the NC double A to

560
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: actually enforce anti inducement NIL rules, you know, coming to

561
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: a head most recently with Texas and whether A and

562
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: M can essentially run a collective through its official like

563
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: caplic the partner fund rates right. And you know, last

564
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: year the NCUBLEA would go up to Congress and say, hey,

565
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: we need a federal bill or else we we can't

566
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: force any rules, and that was kind of dubious. But

567
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: now that's pretty clear, Like they literally, you know, somebody

568
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: could give a recruit five hundred thousand dollars in a

569
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: briefcase say sign one autograph and here's the deal. And

570
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: of course that runs a foul of every nc double

571
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: A policy, but there's no one who could stop that.

572
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,719
Speaker 1: Now wo'll be against Texas state law. There'd be a lawsuit.

573
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: The NCUBLEA would probably lose. So they're in a tough spot.

574
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: And they're in a tough spot not just for trying

575
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: to figure out how to regulate nil. They're starting to

576
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: talk about a plan B, but they also recognize that

577
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: something much bigger is still on the horizon, and that's employment.

578
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: And part of the reason I'm spending less time getting

579
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: really in the weeds about state NIL rules and arguing

580
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: about that is because my belief is most this isn't

581
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: going to matter in two years. The NC DOUBLEA, the

582
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: I mean Johnson v. NC DOUBLEA, the federal court case

583
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: and your neck of the Woods in eastern Pennsylvania. That's over.

584
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: That's the question is whether SCS football players should be

585
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: classified as employees. That's we're going to get some kind

586
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: of decision on that this year. There's going to be

587
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: an appeal. It's going to get wrapped up next year

588
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 1: at some point. We have another gigantic anti trust case

589
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: for back Enio Age's House VMCAA. We'll have that starting

590
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five, and we have the National Labor

591
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: Relations for it. And the NCAA hasn't gotten Congress to

592
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: say athletes are employees, and because they haven't, like people

593
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: should know. Sometime late this year early next year, a

594
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: judge is probably going to say some athletes are employees.

595
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: And if athletes are employees, we don't really need an

596
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: ecosystem of bagman to money launder to pay them, because

597
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: then schools can pay them, which is what they would

598
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: rather be doing, and cut out some of the pressurized

599
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: lumber middleman, you know, third party groups that are doing this.

600
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: And that's I think the much bigger question everyone has

601
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: to grapple with. You what happens after that?

602
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 2: My question on that, Matt, And maybe it's just me

603
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: that needs a little bit of clarity on it, but

604
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 2: I feel like for a long time the conversation has been, Hey,

605
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 2: the schools are fine with this ecosystem and the way

606
00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: it's set up so long as they don't have to

607
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 2: share their money. It seemingly has been that way for

608
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 2: a good long time. But what you're saying is that

609
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 2: actually they'd much rather cut out some of their money

610
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 2: and not have to deal with the outside pressures.

611
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: There's a lot of truth to that. At the power

612
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: five level, there's enough money to go around, right. You

613
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: can pay the last paid place coach in the scc

614
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: West two million instead of six and a half million,

615
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: and you could spread that out around your payroll. You

616
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: can have a couple of fewer analysts, you don't have

617
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: to goal play at the locker room, which is what

618
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: the NFL does or the NBA does. And the advantage

619
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: to doing it this way is you have some semblance

620
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: of control. Like Nick Saban has said this, James Franklin

621
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: has said this. I think we've seen some other elite

622
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: coaches or a coach is a high profile program to say,

623
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: like we should move to more of an NFL model,

624
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: and it's the coach most coaches, there's a couple of

625
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: true believers out there, but not as many, especially guys

626
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: have spent time in the NFL and realized what I

627
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: really want as a coach is predictability and rather than

628
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: maximizing my own money or the money for my assistance.

629
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: And if we have a collective bargaining agreement, we know

630
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: when players can leave and when they can't. We know

631
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: about how much money they'll get and what they can

632
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: expect in the open market. We know who we're negotiating

633
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: with and how we're negotiating, and there's this system and

634
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: we can prepare around it. Without those things, you have

635
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: perpetual free agency. You have rules that differ from school

636
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: to school and state to state, and you have a

637
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: world of a lot of instability, and you get you know,

638
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: we might argue you get paid seven million dollars. Man,

639
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: like you can be a grown up and you can

640
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: figure some of this stuff out. But that's if you

641
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: moved away from that world. It would make things much

642
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: easier for many athletic departments. Now, a professionalized world makes

643
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: something very different for Illinois State or San Jose State,

644
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: or Tarleton State or many private schools. But what it

645
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: make life easier for Penn State. Yeah, in almost every

646
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: way I think it would.

647
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 2: And you think this is going to happen, I do.

648
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: The question to me is not will some college athletes

649
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: become employees in the next three years? I think looking

650
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: at what judges are saying or arguments, looking at what

651
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court has said, looking at where the legal

652
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: jurisprudence has gone over the past couple of years, I

653
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: do think that's inevitable. There's enough legal challenges that a

654
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: judge somewhere or board somewhere is going to say this.

655
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: But I don't know which athletes will be employees. It's

656
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: not yet clear to me if that means every Division

657
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: one athlete, Power five athletes, just football players, football and

658
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: basketball players, what this means for track athletes? And I

659
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: think anybody that's trying to tell you they know exactly

660
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: what that means is not being truthful. I don't think

661
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: the law is explicit about that yet. And that's something

662
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: that Congress could have a role in, something university presidents

663
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: could have a role in. It's something that athlete organizers

664
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: could have a roll in. And I would also say

665
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: I'm not one hundred percent convinced that making all athletes

666
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,479
Speaker 1: employees is a net positive system for everybody. But whether

667
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 1: it's good or bad is a little bit is moved

668
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: compared to what the law says. Like fundamentally, universities have

669
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: to follow the law. And we'll see what these these

670
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: lawsuits end up deciding. Here we will We're going to

671
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 1: look at a very different college sports world in a

672
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: couple of years.

673
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 2: How different does that look? Final question? And then I'll

674
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 2: move on to something else because you know, you could

675
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 2: get really bogged down talking about the future state of

676
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 2: college football if this does come to fruition. But you know,

677
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: on the surface, right if student athletes are employees, the

678
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 2: college can pay them directly. Clearly that has an impact

679
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 2: with respect to things like recruiting. You can offer the

680
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 2: money upfront, You're not having to go through an intermediary

681
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 2: things like that. Perhaps the way we cover recruiting changes.

682
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 2: Perhaps the way that rosters are constructed also changes, because

683
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 2: again with some element of control, perhaps there are athletic departments,

684
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 2: perhaps are coaches that choose to wield that power and

685
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: influence and money a little bit differently than they would otherwise.

686
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 2: But does it fundamentally change the product that you and

687
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 2: I see on a Saturday.

688
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: You know, that's a good question, and I think if

689
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: you're a fan of a bigger college football program, I

690
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: don't know if it changes things that much. We already

691
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: have people who go to our schools and our students

692
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: and also employees. Right if you go to a big

693
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: R one research school, state flagship like a Penn State

694
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: or Ohio State, you've got graduate assistants that our employees graduate.

695
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 1: Stre's even a graduate student union at many at many

696
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: big schools right now that are able to do both.

697
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: And you know, I imagine if we move towards a

698
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,280
Speaker 1: professionalized system, there's going to be some kind of union

699
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: or some kind of other you know, force on the

700
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: other side of the negotiating team will to create structure

701
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: and rules. You know. So what that means is, yeah,

702
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: you're going to have to fret about somebody transferring every

703
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 1: two weeks. When there's a window like there is for

704
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: the NFL or there is for the NBA like that,

705
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: many fans might look at that as a positive. You

706
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: might be able to sign people to multi year agreements, right, like, Okay,

707
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: you can leave, but then you have to forfeit X,

708
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 1: Y and Z money or you know, we can't guarantee

709
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: there's going to be another spot for you like that.

710
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: You know, all those things can be maybe not positive.

711
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: There's also a question of can Arkansas State a court

712
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: afford to function in that environment, or can Central Michigan

713
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: or Youngstown State? And if you're a fan of any

714
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: of those schools, I think you have to think about

715
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: what would another model look like you Okay, competing in

716
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: a different kind of world, but whether they're employees or

717
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: contractors or they just get revenue sharing or something else

718
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty seven, like Notre Dame and Oregon are

719
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 1: going to play a football game or something, and those

720
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: people are probably still going to be students, and I

721
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 1: think State is still going to be full. It's just

722
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 1: a much bigger question what happens to everybody else.

723
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 2: Let's shift gears once more, Matt, What is the state

724
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 2: on the ground in Chicago? Given the news of the week.

725
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 2: We discussed it as best we could. On our last

726
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 2: episode we recorded with Roger Sherman and picked his brain

727
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 2: and all things Northwestern. We expected that things would go

728
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 2: the way that they did with Fitzgerald. We didn't expect

729
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 2: it would happen so quickly, so we had to scramble

730
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 2: our jets and re record large swaths of the episode

731
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 2: just so that it wasn't immediately outdated. But you know,

732
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 2: it doesn't seem like it's a shocking turn, given what

733
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 2: we found out via the student newspaper, given the response

734
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 2: from the university president. But now I guess a bit

735
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 2: removed from the decision to unceremoniously fire Pat Fitzgerald, we

736
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 2: have seen some other news stories pop up about him,

737
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 2: a law firm, perhaps some money that is still out

738
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: there for the taking on his behalf. What is your

739
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 2: take on what we've seen happen?

740
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: Since I think where we are right now is that

741
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 1: this story is not over by a long shot. And

742
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: part of what I do in my beat with extra

743
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: points so I have to focus a lot on how

744
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: ethletic departments are actually run and the process that schools

745
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: use to reach certain decisions, and on how this sausage

746
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 1: is made. And I think it would surprise a lot

747
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: of your listeners and a lot of other fans when

748
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: they learned that the hiring process for coaches and even

749
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: sometimes the real management of coaches is really not done

750
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: by athletic directors. Athletic directors have to own those decisions,

751
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: but in many cases it's boosters or regents or the

752
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: university president or other third parties that wield a ton

753
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,879
Speaker 1: of influence and who gets hired, who gets fired, who

754
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: gets extended, and who even gets disciplined. And whenever you

755
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,919
Speaker 1: have a school where the coach is so of any

756
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: sport becomes so powerful that the athletic director or the

757
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: school is self can't meaningfully check them in any way,

758
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: I think you run into risks of some big problems.

759
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: There's a couple of schools and coaches. I think we

760
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: could probably brainstorm where that's that's the case right now,

761
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: one coach is the de facto athletic director, And in

762
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: many ways I think that was the case with Fitzgerald

763
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: at Northwestern. You have a new you have a new AD,

764
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: and you have a new a d in part because

765
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: the guy they hired to be the AD last time

766
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: I had to quit after ten days because of his

767
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 1: role in abuse lawsuits and the community completely rejecting him.

768
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 1: You have a new university president been there less than

769
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: a year from Oregon. I mean, you have a guy

770
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: that's been there, who was the single most important guy

771
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: at Northwestern since they were the fighting Methodists, you know,

772
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: like the actually the literal father of this of this

773
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 1: sport are just this program at the school, and you

774
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: get rid of that guy, I think you have to

775
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: ask a bunch of really important questions about who actually

776
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: made that decision and why they made that decision after

777
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: essentially having the same information on Friday and deciding to

778
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 1: go in a different direction. What it looks like to

779
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: me is that Northwestern wanted to keep this guy, tried

780
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: to newsvelp an investigation that was really vague and didn't

781
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: point direct figures in anybody, and hoped it would go

782
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 1: away because there's no beat writers at Northwestern from the

783
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: Chicago newspapers or anything. And then the student newspaper blew

784
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 1: that all up by getting the very specific stuff out there,

785
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: and enough people internally complained that then they had to

786
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,479
Speaker 1: reverse course. And that may be the right decision. Maybe

787
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,720
Speaker 1: it was. I think it probably was the right decision,

788
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 1: But if you reach that decision with a bad process,

789
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: it isn't It's something you just, you know, wasted thirty

790
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: five million dollars that you're going to have to pay

791
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,760
Speaker 1: pad fits jail assues you. But you have some systems

792
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 1: that need to be reevaluated when you hire a new guy.

793
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: And this is happening right after you had an AD

794
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: where you had a similar story. You've got to scandal

795
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: with the baseball coach and a rotten culture happening right now,

796
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: and the president and AD aren't really around. So I

797
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: think there's a bigger question that play here about who's

798
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: really running things in Northwestern and who's making decisions, and

799
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 1: who's responsible for building a better culture. And that's something

800
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: that can take down a president. That's something that could

801
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: take down an AD. That's something that can alienate some

802
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: core donors. And Northwestern is not a school that has

803
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: a really deep donor base that has a handful of

804
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 1: guys that have a lot of influence. And it's a

805
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: terrible time for this to be happening because Northwestern is

806
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: also trying to completely rebuild Ryanfield. A gigantic football infrastructure

807
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: project is happening, and it's one that Evanston residents don't want.

808
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 1: So you're already going to be dealing with not just

809
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 1: a fundraising issue, but a big political battle. And now,

810
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: if you've got a bunch of people who don't like

811
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: Northwestern athletics anyway, and Roger could probably tell you, and

812
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 1: Dan could tell you there's a weird dynamic between the

813
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: town and the gown of at Northwestern, this is going

814
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: to make it worse. And I look at this as

815
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: not just a tragedy for the players involved, and a

816
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: you know, a football story is this program tries to

817
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 1: figure out who the hell they're going to hire and

818
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 1: what they want to be given that they haven't had

819
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: a new identity since like nineteen ninety four. But also

820
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 1: I think you're going to see other administrators leave and

821
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 1: something that can have real ramifications throughout a very important

822
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: research university.

823
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 2: It seems like the kind of thing that we're not

824
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 2: done hearing about firings. No, if it was a bad

825
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 2: process that led us to this horrible situation, you know,

826
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: on a couple different levels. If they want to move

827
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 2: forward with any kind of football renovations, yeah, it's they're

828
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 2: going to have to be more heads of that role.

829
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 1: This reminds me a little bit of where we had

830
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: more Kansas football was a couple of years ago, with

831
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: less miles and It's one thing to let go of

832
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: the coach who is popular internally because of some scandals,

833
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: but then you have to realize, like, wow, we had

834
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: a terrible process that let us get here, and so

835
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: Jeff Long's got to go, and then we have to

836
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 1: really evaluate, like you know, the other regents and the

837
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: other power brokers and everybody else to let us get

838
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: to this point. And you had a very big change

839
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: with Kansas athletics. I've seen some people compare this to

840
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: Penn State. I don't know if that's a perfect analogy.

841
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: I could see some superficial similarities. And then you know,

842
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: that's still a situation that in many ways hasn't been

843
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: resolved internally, with various power brokers at that schools still

844
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: fighting over that. And there's the possibility that could happen

845
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,919
Speaker 1: at Northwestern too. And if you want to talk about

846
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: on the field, guys, like if you're our age or

847
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 1: if you're older, you know what Northwestern was like before Fitzgerald, Like,

848
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: the floor is not three and nine. The floor is

849
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 1: worst team in college football. And if you have now,

850
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,839
Speaker 1: if you're not able to get your limited fan base

851
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: and community on the same page and going the same direction,

852
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,399
Speaker 1: in a league now where your schedule's about to get

853
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: much harder. This thing could get ugly. Get a hurry. Now,

854
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: this is a program where the ceiling and we know

855
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: where the ceiling is. But boy, how do you the

856
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: floor is a real, real love.

857
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,919
Speaker 2: It'll be interesting. We'll be boring, to say the least.

858
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 2: Let's shift gears one final time and talk about more

859
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 2: positive news. We talked at the start of this conversation

860
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 2: about EA Sports and it's college football video game that

861
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 2: is forthcoming presumably in summer of twenty twenty four. You

862
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 2: have also been hard at work at a game of

863
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: your own. It is not a college football game, at

864
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 2: least not purely a college football game. But athletics excuse me,

865
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 2: but Athletic Director Simulator three thousand is exactly the type

866
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 2: of nerd content that I think the or who to

867
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 2: be interested to hear more about. So, uh, speak to

868
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 2: me about what it's been like to develop a game

869
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,839
Speaker 2: on your own, why you've developed this game at all,

870
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 2: and more importantly, what is it.

871
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'll give you the full story, which I

872
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: think I think this crew might be interested in. I

873
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: fired six months ago. I did an Extra points newsletter

874
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 1: post with a really simple a Python game that I

875
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: called you know, I thought director similar in three thousand.

876
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 1: It was all text. I mean as a joke in Parks.

877
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: I was trying to learn a little bit of Python

878
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: on the side because I do a bunch of data

879
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 1: analysis and big new spreadsheets for my work and I

880
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: thought maybe learning to code a little bit might help.

881
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 1: I'm breaking down budgets and this joke game is a

882
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: way to see if I figured out how to do

883
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 1: loops correctly, right, And it was just five questions. You know,

884
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: if you spend a bunch of money on extra points,

885
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 1: you did well. If you hire s Houston not you

886
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: didn't do as well. It was it was, it was.

887
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 1: It was a little thing, right, and you know, my

888
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 1: nerd people loved it. But was shocking to me even

889
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 1: though the whole game took five minutes to play. Was

890
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 1: that a lot of athletic directors and a lot of

891
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 1: our readers really enjoyed it. Like the feedback that we

892
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: got from industry was unexpectedly strong, which led to my

893
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 1: parent company, do you want ticker? You're asking me what

894
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 1: would it take to make this a real game? Because

895
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 1: a big chunk of our readership and part of how

896
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,720
Speaker 1: my company makes money now is selling to college students.

897
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: We have kids that are studying sports management and they'll

898
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 1: use our stuff as a textbook and which is really

899
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: funny to me, right, And I'm like, well, if we

900
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: build this kind of game and then maybe we can

901
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: get you know, college students playing it and they can

902
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: appreciate what it's like to be an ad or what

903
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: what these decisions making, what this decision making really looks like.

904
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: So I'm not a I'm not a developer, but we

905
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 1: reached on to a couple of contractors to help us

906
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: build a transport translate this into a real game in Java.

907
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: We want we we You were using a kind of

908
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,720
Speaker 1: Apple two E organ trail aesthetics, so it's like black

909
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: and green graphics, it's eight big audio of college songs.

910
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: It looks like you're playing you know, right, and it's

911
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: a real game at this point. Like what it does

912
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: is you are asked, do you start as the head

913
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: of a low major school, something like an NEC kind

914
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: of school, or or you know, somebody in the south

915
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: Land or something right low you know, small budget fcs,

916
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 1: and you have to manage your budget. You have to

917
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 1: manage your director's Cup ranking and your political support. And

918
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: you get a bunch of questions that are pretty realistic,

919
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 1: and we vetted these with people who work at these

920
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: schools for situations at a school might face. How to

921
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 1: hire a coach, how to sell your multimedia r It's

922
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,399
Speaker 1: what happens when a parent complains about a coach being

923
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: a bully. Somebody steals the mascot, you know, the you know,

924
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 1: should you set up your own licensed beer? You know,

925
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: last these things here and it's set up so there's

926
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 1: not a perfect answer, because in real life you can

927
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: make them right the right process and have a bad result.

928
00:47:57,640 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: You could hire Scott Frost, even though that looked like

929
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: the right decision at the time, or you can hire Dabbo,

930
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: which looked like a dumb idea at the time and

931
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: it turned on great. And then the game is built

932
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 1: in so you have it's not completely randomized, it's weighted,

933
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 1: but you know, sometimes the right decision works and sometimes

934
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: it doesn't. And if you make good decisions, you get

935
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 1: promoted and you get to be a Power five ad,

936
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: and if you don't, you get fired. And the game

937
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: should be really we've been it's been in beta for

938
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 1: a month It should be released next week, so around

939
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: the nineteenth or twentieth of July. It runs on PC, Mac, Android,

940
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: and iOS because it runs within a web browser. We're

941
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 1: probably going to do a free trial for everybody the

942
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: middle of the next week, you know, stay tuned for that.

943
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: But it's mostly going to be for subscribers. So if

944
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 1: you like all of this stuff, you can get all

945
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: the newsletters, you can get access to the game, and

946
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 1: we updated every week with more questions and tweak the balance.

947
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 1: All this stuff for like eight bucks, and we're going

948
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: to see where it goes if I get a big

949
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 1: about better developer, or if this financial works out. We

950
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: have a game plan to literally like bring this to

951
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 1: Nintendo Switch and where we're in negotiations with licensing some

952
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: school IP like just like ya sports is so I

953
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 1: would love to be able to say, like, Okay, now

954
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: you're the ad at Penn State. Here's Penn State's logo,

955
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 1: Here's Penn State's actual budget, Here's here's what Penn State

956
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: and makes selling tickets make the decisions and right we're

957
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: just trying to find out figure out way to do

958
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: that right now without having to write a five hundred

959
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 1: thousand dollars.

960
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 2: Check where does this rank in terms of exciting things

961
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 2: that you've done over the last five years.

962
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: This is legitimately one of the favorite, my favorite things

963
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 1: I've done since I left Espionation. And you know, part

964
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: of that is because it's it's just totally new. It's

965
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: right to get a chance to kind of to kind

966
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: of work your brain in a different way, and it's

967
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: a different medium to tell a story and seeing people

968
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: light up when they play it. I mean, this is

969
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 1: not Football Manager yet, right, this is not the most

970
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: sophisticated spreadsheet game, but it's very clear, it's not a

971
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: throwaway a joke. And like the music so pretty good

972
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: and the animations are pretty good, and it's it's it's

973
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: well balanced, and I hope it will help in the classroom,

974
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: and I hope people enjoy it. I hope people enjoy

975
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: it as much as I have making it, because I

976
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 1: really want to be the kind of reporter and the

977
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: kind of writer that can talk about Northwestern scandals and

978
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: talk about budget reports and talk about open records and

979
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 1: also do weird stuff. And I think this is an

980
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:27,879
Speaker 1: example of the things that I find to be really

981
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 1: personally fulfilling.

982
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 2: I'm really excited for you. I know, whether it started

983
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 2: as a joke or not, I'm really excited for you.

984
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:37,359
Speaker 2: This is this is a cool thing.

985
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 1: I give you.

986
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 2: I give you credit for seeing it through a lot.

987
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 1: A lot of our ideas have started as jokes and

988
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: then you never know what kind of grows from there.

989
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 2: You know this podcast started as a joke. Yeah, so

990
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 2: I'm with you.

991
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, the news that I kind of did, or the

992
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,280
Speaker 1: Extra Point startups. I was mad at my boss and expation.

993
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: I didn't think that was going to be my job,

994
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: and now now here here it is. Right. I learned

995
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,280
Speaker 1: most of the stuff about Ayesports college football not on purpose.

996
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 1: I got it because I was finally the quest to

997
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 1: figure out what because I heard Bowling Green was going

998
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: to license a new beer and I was trying to

999
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 1: learn about that sponsorship process. I found out about this,

1000
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 1: like who knows what happens by accident. That's how the

1001
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: option was born, right, That's how a lot of crazy

1002
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,280
Speaker 1: football stuff happened. It was by accident.

1003
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 2: Matt Brown The Extra Points with Matt Brown newsletter. How

1004
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 2: can folks find you? How can folks subscribe? How can

1005
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 2: folks get their hand on this game?

1006
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 1: You can s. The newsletter is at Extra Points mb

1007
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 1: dot com. You can subscribe to the newsletter for free

1008
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 1: and get two femails a week. You can subscribe for

1009
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: eight bucks a month, you get four. You get an

1010
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: archive of like seven hundred different newsletters, and you get

1011
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 1: access to the game. You go on the website, there's

1012
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 1: a big tab at the top it says extra I

1013
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,879
Speaker 1: thought Director Simulator three thousand. You can play the game

1014
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: right there in that tab. You can find me on

1015
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: Twitter if it's working at Matt Brown EP I think

1016
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,240
Speaker 1: on Matt Brown on Blue Sky.

1017
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 2: I'm on Instagram important lam Yeah, I mean.

1018
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 1: You never know these days, right, you know, shure to

1019
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,240
Speaker 1: smoke signal or something and some one of the Matt's

1020
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: Brown will find it and relate it to me. I

1021
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,280
Speaker 1: cover the off the field Forces that Shape College uplix

1022
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 1: very cool.

1023
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 2: His name is Matt Brown. Make sure you follow him,

1024
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 2: make sure you subscribe to his newsletter. He does an

1025
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 2: incredible job, as I'm sure you can figure out on

1026
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 2: your own. After listening to this discussion always makes us

1027
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 2: a little bit smarter. We will be back next week.

1028
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 2: Dan will be with us on our next episode. For

1029
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 2: that guy over there, Matt Brown still in the heart

1030
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 2: of the Midwest. From myself, Ty Hilton Brandon, Thanks for downloading,

1031
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 2: for listening, for supporting the soliverbal Make sure you check

1032
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 2: us out at verbalers dot com. That is our Patreon.

1033
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 2: Make sure you follow along on YouTube and across all

1034
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 2: social media. Last, but certainly not least, hit subscribe, Hit

1035
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 2: follow so that you don't miss any more episodes. We'll

1036
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 2: talk to you all next week.

1037
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 1: Stay sid