WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 112 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:03.040 All media. 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:05.800 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.480 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.559 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:16.400 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:18.920 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:20.840 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:22.639 there's got to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:24.360 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:31.760 Welcome to Dickodapton here a podcast, and we are recording 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:34.080 for the first time. All of the audio worked perfectly. 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:40.040 It was great. Yeah, the society that has put multiple 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:44.479 human beings on the moon did successfully produce functioning audio software. 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:45.320 It's wonderful. 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:46.880 Yeah. 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:51.839 With me to celebrate this is Carl Eugene Stroud. He's 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:56.280 a language teacher and anarchist Builtin's and read angles, who's 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.360 a bus driver and an anarchist, member of the Center 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.520 for Specific Studies. Yeah, both of you. Welcome to the show. 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:04.119 Thanks for having us. 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.120 Yeah, thank you for having us for this wonderful celebration 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:09.360 of audio recording technology. 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:13.959 It's all great, it's all wonderful. Speaking of things that 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:15.800 are wonderful, this is this is this is why they 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.080 pay me the am I legally allowed to say that 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.679 it's a below market rate. That's why they paid me 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:25.039 the slightly below market rate bucks. Yeah, So, speaking of wonderful, 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.920 we are here to talk about a I guess putting 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:34.400 things back together project, which is Miltant Kindergarten. And I 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:36.640 guess I guess we should start with talking about what 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:41.760 Billetant Kindergarten is and what it isn't in terms of, like, 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:44.800 it's not we're teaching we're teaching small children how to 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:45.760 take apart buildings. 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:52.280 Yes, so Milton Kindergarten is a multi month study of 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:55.880 a text, and in that way, you know, we call 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:58.520 it a seminar, but it's not that much different than 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:03.080 reading group or study circle or any of those kinds 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.880 of things. Essentially, what we're doing is we're using one 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:12.760 text to revisit and have conversations with different people that 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:17.120 are at various you know, points in a path of radicalization. 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:22.000 We're you know, distinctly trying to spread the word about 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:26.240 the importance and necessity of militancy in our movements, but 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:31.720 also teach people about a specifismo, which is an anarchist 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.520 current that comes out of Latin America. But it's also 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:40.840 like you know, in in the socialist movement, anarchists can 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:45.799 often be characterized by stereotypes that come from Marxists, and 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:50.600 that in the libertarian and anarchist movement, any kind of 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:56.200 mass anarchism, any kind of class struggle anarchism can also 0:02:56.280 --> 0:03:02.000 be characterized by you know, individualists and insurrectionists. And so 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.600 we mean to you know, not convert people to a 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.600 certain current of anarchism. We see this as a kind 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:11.919 of grouping of tendency. So all the participants come from 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:15.639 different ideologies. This is just a reading group, so you've 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:18.080 got to apply this stuff, you know, outside of this. 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:20.160 This isn't some kind of be all and dull solution. 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:24.520 We're not, you know, educationalists thinking that this is going 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:28.680 to be the first step in some like process that 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.560 we're just already on. But at the same time, we 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:35.720 think that educational space needs to be defended. That's why 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.880 this is the third militant kindergarten. So, yeah, maybe i'll 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.640 let read talk about some of the ones and how 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:46.240 we've gotten here and yeah, kindergarten up to now. 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.360 Yeah, sure, I think that's a good explanation. The group 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:57.200 basically started off in the wonderful, amazing, complicated year twenty 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:03.840 twenty in the wake of the uprising over the summer. 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.920 Both of us live in a relatively small down with 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:12.320 maybe an outsized hundreds above its weight. In terms of 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:17.520 like activism and anarchism, there's probably more anarchist tendencies here 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:22.440 than there are anarchists, And something that we saw in 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:26.840 the wake of the height of the uprising was one 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:30.760 a huge amount of burnout that people weren't really addressing. 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:34.760 The solution to burnout that we saw being proposed was 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:40.600 just do it again, more harder, And we also saw 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:43.760 the burnout as kind of coming from a lack of 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:49.080 strategy and organization on the ground, people sort of repeating 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:52.280 tactics because that's what you do, and that's what we 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:53.760 were doing, so we're just going to try to keep 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:59.159 doing it. And both of us were unable to participate 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:04.640 in the more aggressive street actions that were going on 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:08.599 at the time, so we decided we individually needed to 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:12.520 study and get better at our understanding of strategy an 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:16.400 organization and try to rethink like some of the problems 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:18.520 that had occurred and how to move on from there, 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:21.800 and also to provide a space for people who were 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:27.440 more active in different places, the chance to meet together 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:32.440 and reflect in a non non urgent space where you 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:35.840 could just like pause and learn and discuss the topic. 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:41.320 So we were, yeah, we hit upon We were both 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:45.400 kind of simultaneously interested in the spess of seasonal current 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:50.520 from Latin America, so we both just kind of decided, yeah, 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:53.120 we want to read some of these texts, and we 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:57.320 quickly came upon social anarchism an organization. We thought, like, wow, 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:01.599 this is a really comprehensive introduction not only to this 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:07.200 tendency but also to anarchism and social anarchism broadly. Like 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:11.960 it really covers just the basics, principles and theory up 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:18.680 to history and organizational theory, strategy, tactics, ideology in a 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:24.080 much higher, more sophisticated and like i guess, like modernized 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:30.599 way than many other previous documents we'd read. It's like, 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:33.880 if you took the platform, you know, the Maximvist platform. 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:37.600 We should explain what that is because people are not 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:42.039 going to yeah, okay, going back. 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:46.680 So it's it's the organizational platform of the Anarchist Federation 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:51.600 of Riodaian Hero which is basically their foundational document, and 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:57.640 it's a very comprehensive look at the kind of theory 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:03.160 and strategy and work that goes behind goes on behind 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:08.680 founding an organization like that. It's similar to the anarchist 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:14.080 platform written by the X, the Magnavist in exile in Paris, 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:20.880 the Ukrainian anarchists in exile after the revolution in Russia. 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:25.200 They wrote this platform saying anarchists should maybe be somewhat 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:31.480 organized and unified in their tactics and their strategies, and 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:35.400 received a whole bunch of pushback from it, but founded 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:40.520 The sort of the platform is current of anarchism. But really, 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:43.280 when you go back to the platform, there's not a 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:47.680 ton there. It's more of a document for organizing a 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:53.120 like a military force in a already ongoing revolution, Whereas 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:56.080 what we found in Social Anarchism and Organization is a 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:02.760 much more road kind of introduction to social anarchist organization 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:07.120 that is more widely applicable to a variety of situations. 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:11.640 Yeah, and you know, Okay, so we've covered a spacifistmo 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:15.680 on here with Andrew once. I think we've talked about 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:19.600 it a little bit in some other episodes. But yeah, 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:23.440 do we want to get into what what about a 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:29.200 specifiespo is sort of different from older kinds of like well, 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.840 just like other anarchist tendencies and other sort of kinds 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:35.880 of platformism, and talk a little bit about how it 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:39.760 sort of came about because it's one of the tendencies 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:42.720 I guess that some people adopted in the US, but 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:45.640 I don't. I don't think it's as famous as a 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:47.160 lot of other tendencies here. 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:52.280 Yes, so you know, a lot of the motivation behind 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:57.520 organizing the Center for US Specifiesmo studies. This came after 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:02.040 us studying this text a few times. We decided to 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.600 formalize this into militant Kindergarten, and a lot of that 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:11.439 came from the need to articulate what is a specifismo 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:15.120 in English. Because a lot of the resources, a lot 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:19.679 of the ideas and writings come from Latin America, and 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:23.680 so they're written in Spanish. A lot of the theory 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:28.600 has been developed in Spanish. Espacifismo originally comes from the 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:34.280 Anarchist Federation of Uruguay. In the nineteen sixties. They began 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:40.600 to articulate a kind of organizational strategy that imagined what 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:44.120 the way we've described it is kind of two rails 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:48.959 for a train, and this train is bringing this revolutionary rupture. 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:54.280 So these two rails are the social level, which includes 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:59.480 all kinds of class struggle. This is class struggle against domination, exploitation, 0:09:59.600 --> 0:09:59.960 and a press. 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.360 And that the other rail is. 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:08.840 The political organization. And so this is the anarchist principles 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:13.600 and ideologies that, yeah, I think we share probably pretty 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:17.520 broadly with most all anarchist currents, at least you know, 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:21.240 coming out of the socialist movement. But when it comes 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:26.920 to the way to balance these and to keep them 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:33.120 both working towards the same ends, we see a need 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:37.840 to keep them theoretically distinct. And so a lot of 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.720 what we've done at the Center forres Becifismo Studies is 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:45.120 try to articulate these ideas in English so that we 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.280 can start to develop what that means here and not 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:53.160 just sort of translate or take a translation and sort 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:57.760 of try to input an idea into our own context. So, 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:02.320 like you said, like I think at some of the 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.680 we could we could take for example, the Black Rose 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:11.280 Rosa Negra anarchist federation in the US that's the largest 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:17.800 organization of a specificst anarchists in North America. They are 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:22.000 distinctly influenced by this current. They have sister organizations in 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:29.000 Latin America and but but they're they're just one kind 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.800 of organization that's that's kind of known on a national level. 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:37.400 And as far as planting its, you know, ideas in 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:41.160 North America, we're definitely still doing that work. So a 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:45.800 lot of what we've done is also developed second secondary resources. 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.720 This includes like audio versions of this text, but also 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:54.280 like things we've produced through our study and through these 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:58.640 discussions that come out of kindergarten. So last year, for example, 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:02.280 we made a a minizine. There was like a kind 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:05.560 of working group that worked on a minizine to define 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:10.400 some basic terms and make something really really really basic 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:16.760 in introductory to a specifismo. We also I've written a 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.000 few pamphlets, one of which is how do you say 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:23.880 a specifismo in English? And so that is yeah, exactly 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:28.120 trying to address this this idea. And you know, some 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:32.520 people they hear a specifismo and they're like, oh, that's 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:36.600 you know, exotic and cool and like new, and that's 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.280 a reason to be attracted to it. But then you know, 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.320 other people might hear that, and they have kind of 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.240 other reactions where they sort of try to put it 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:49.760 into a really specific box. I mean, what our understanding 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:54.479 is is that it's important to be able to acknowledge 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:58.440 what current you're kind of plugging into where your ideas 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:00.719 are coming from. It takes a lot of pressure off 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.839 of us to not feel like we're inventing everything and 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:06.760 we're supposed to be coming up with like the most perfect, 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:11.880 cool ideas. But it's also a humbling experience of like, yeah, 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:14.440 we know about this because other people have done this 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:18.839 militancy before us to make these things available for us 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:22.800 to have preserved these ideas. That's the political level of 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.040 the two rails, right, So that's that is preserving this 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.840 so that it is possible to say I have this 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:34.559 opinion about a specifismo and it relates to my context 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:37.520 in this way or likewise that it doesn't you know, 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.800 if we don't have anyone doing that militancy to preserve 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:45.160 those ideas, then it's actually not even up to people 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:47.199 to be able to pick them up and use them 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:48.320 the way that they see fit. 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:51.640 One of the sort of barriers is, I think kind 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:55.960 of what you're alluding to of like a specifismo as 0:13:56.000 --> 0:14:00.600 a tendency in the US is that it wasn't like, 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.400 it wasn't really it wasn't developed in the American context, 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:08.000 and that has different sort of you know that that 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:12.320 that that has sort of like a range of different effects. 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.240 And one of the things that I think is very 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:17.760 interesting about it that I think is definitely a product 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.960 of the context that it was developed in, is the 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:24.920 strategy of social insertion. Yeah, and I was wondering if 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.320 you could talk a bit about social insertion and how 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:29.680 you see that working in the US and how sort 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.800 of like, how do we think about this sort of 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:35.440 in the wake of twenty twenty and the kind of 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:39.920 restructuring of what is what is sort of happening is 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:41.840 out of social movements in the US. 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.920 Yeah, I think the twenty twenty lesson is very important 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:48.600 for thinking about social insertions for anyone who doesn't know. 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:53.280 It's just the practice of anarchists who are organized in 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:58.600 the same organization being present in social movements within them, 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.800 supporting them, trying to help them achieve their own goals 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.040 rather than take them over, or something like you would 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:13.320 see in maybe a entryism from trapeists or something but yeah, 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:15.520 I think one of the major problems that we ran 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.560 into when we started reading this stuff is like social 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:22.400 insertion requires there to even be social movements. 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:25.040 Yeah, that was an issue in the US for a 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.080 long time because we didn't really have social movements in 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:30.080 the way that like Latin America does right, or. 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:34.600 When we do, they're like extremely spontaneous or kind of chaotic, 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:38.640 or they're also there, they could be extremely co opted 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:45.640 or managed by a political party Democrats, some socialist groups, Republicans, whoever. 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.920 And so that's kind of one of our major sort 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:55.880 of projects of theoretical translation into North Americas. You can't 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:59.000 just plug this into North American and say, Okay, we're 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.600 going to go join ex social movements to achieve these 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.680 goals and obtain this amount of influence there and some 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:10.120 we really have to start. I think what is useful 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:13.200 about that problem is that it forces us to start 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:17.280 really trying to theorize what actually is happening here, what 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:22.280 social movement actually is there, And that leads us to 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:26.520 start thinking about things more literally, like movement, what does 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:28.760 it mean to be moving? What is the role of 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:33.920 anarchists in movement? So we can think of the idea 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.200 that we've developed is the idea of anarchists who are 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:42.520 organized as anarchists, the role of them in movement is 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:47.080 to actually literally be moving between different kinds of spaces, 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:51.080 different movements, and starting through their movement to generate a 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:56.120 kind of flow of people and of ideas and energy 0:16:56.120 --> 0:17:00.520 and momentum, acting as a small motor within a big, 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:06.119 a big system, if you will, not driving it, but 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.840 getting things going. And so I think that's kind of 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:12.280 more the level that we're here in the US is 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:15.560 we still need to just theorize what is out there 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:20.639 and how can we help it, how can we plug 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:24.000 into it, How can we start getting things moving in 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:29.040 a direction that is actually going to meet the needs 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:33.520 of these movements, For these movements that aren't yet articulated. Well, 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:35.919 you know, you see this with like the rise of 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:39.639 tenant unions and tenant organizing still in a very like 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.640 nascent stage, but people are seeing that need and they're 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:46.320 starting to get that moving from a variety of socialist tendencies. 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:52.240 And I think, yeah, the idea is important in this 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:54.920 context because we have to we have to be finding 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:57.439 these spaces, we have to be moving to them, and 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.679 we have to be returning to our own spaces to 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:04.360 be able to actually understand what we're encountering out there 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:09.680 and figure out how to such a course or move 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.160 to something else or adapt to a new situation. 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:16.680 Yeah, Like maybe similar to read said, they're this idea 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:21.600 that the politics need to be moving, that anarchism needs 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:25.080 to be a movement, and that in that way, like 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:30.679 we can't allow our ideas to be stuck in certain 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:36.760 you know, just stations or organizations or spaces that are 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:40.560 friendly or that we're really familiar with. We need to 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:45.800 be able to engage those ideas in the relevant spaces 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.600 where we do live. That looks really different in different 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:53.640 parts across the US and North America. So the idea 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.240 that you know, we would be able to just simply 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.840 take one thing and apply it across the board would 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.720 also like, uh, yeah, be really limited here. And so 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:07.720 I think a lot of what we're we're well, a 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.120 lot of what we've seen in terms of the utility 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:14.159 of a specifismo as a as an influential current in 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:17.960 the politics in leftist politics in North America. Is this 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:22.800 theoretical aspect and how we can see both like we 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:26.639 learn more about social movements more about the necessity of 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:30.919 them being popular, more about popular power, and at the 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:33.800 same time as in doing that, that shows us more 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:38.520 about what is political unity, what is uh you know, 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:41.960 unity of strategy, what is unity of theory, what is 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:47.800 a unity of commitment? And that those things we want 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.040 to as we keep learning about them individually. That goes 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.600 back to this trained idea of their being too rails 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:58.679 is we need them to be on independent cycles. You know, 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:04.320 we know that social movements don't last forever, that mobilizations 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:09.880 and you know, insurrections will fade away, that there are 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:14.040 ebbs and flows of the engagement, and that when we're 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:17.199 talking about a massive popular level, we should expect that 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:20.800 even more right, plenty of people will only even if 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:25.920 they're engaging militantly, only be engaging militantly with social movements, 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:30.280 not with political ideas, not with political organization. And so 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:34.200 the idea that something needs to endure someone even needs 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:36.639 to be able to tell the story from the last 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:40.440 time that things got spicy, so that we understand even 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:45.480 what happened without even necessarily having the the critique or 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:49.399 the analysis, even just simply the retelling is something that 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:55.919 is grossly missing from our struggles in North America, and 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:58.840 so that's where we see like there being a complete 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:03.400 absence of of political organizing, and especially when we think 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:07.120 about being on an entirely different cycle. So that kind 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:10.840 of goes back to kindergarten being an annual thing. And 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:13.520 you know, where we live, like in the winter, there's 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.240 not a lot you can do, and so it kind 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:19.280 of made sense to develop a seasonal pattern of this, 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:23.760 right where like exactly as things are dying down, it's 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:27.040 kind of like, well, the people who do still have capacity, 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:30.840 the people who are still attempting to be active, how 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:34.000 can we keep that little bit of movement moving and going. 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:38.040 The idea of the metaphor of a small engine a 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:43.760 small motor is often used in aspecifismo, and that's what 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:46.399 the political level is trying to be. Is a small 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:50.879 motor just assisting in something larger that's happening, but it 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:53.280 needs to be connected to something larger that's happening. 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:56.639 Yeah, And I think a key part of this for 0:21:56.800 --> 0:22:01.359 us that we've found is that in our context there 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:05.520 exists sort of these two levels to some extent, there 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:10.000 are political organizations and there are social movements, but what 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:14.000 is often missing, like we were struggling with this, trying 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:17.359 to find the way into one or the other. And 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:21.800 what we discovered is that like this kind of educational 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:30.040 tendency of really open, really educational, really discussion based learning 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:34.800 kind of starts to generate that movement between the two. 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:41.440 Like by having this space open to beginners and experts, 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:46.080 so to speak, you're able to actually get more movements 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:51.640 opened between the two. So it opens up political organizations 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:54.679 people who have not participated in that before don't have 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:58.320 a way into it. And it opens up social movements 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:02.520 to people who maybe politicized but are not organized in 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:06.000 some sort of social and it starts to mix everything 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:09.760 together in this learning space where we can build trust 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:14.960 as a learning community and assisting each other in connecting 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:17.560 these kind of two necessary levels of organization. 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:20.840 I've been thinking a lot about how you were talking 0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:25.280 about how we don't have any kind of organizational continuity 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:29.040 between movements and the kind of disorganization and the loss 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:33.240 of just memory that happens with that, And I think 0:23:33.520 --> 0:23:35.320 it's one of these weird things because you can find 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:38.320 people who've been in like all of these movements, but 0:23:39.920 --> 0:23:43.040 if you're relying on just you know, okay, well you 0:23:43.280 --> 0:23:45.240 can you can get the story of what really happened 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:47.800 in occupy Oakland if you know exactly like the right 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:50.960 for people and you can't like you can't say their 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:55.720 names because like you know, and I mean this has 0:23:55.720 --> 0:23:58.600 always sort of been a problem with parts of social 0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:00.600 movements because I mean there's somef a necessssarily has to 0:24:00.640 --> 0:24:04.560 be cleandestine, like you know, and there's reasons for operacial security, 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:08.280 but also just means the stuff gets lost. And yeah, 0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:12.880 I think having having a like having a thing that 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:15.800 goes as a way to transmit got thing that goes. Wow, 0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:19.800 incredibly technical language, you know, but having having an organization 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:22.159 that can act as a bridge between these sort of 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:25.800 moments and also is able to sort of you know, 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:30.800 allow people's spaces for discussions, for reflection, for learning. That's 0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:34.760 also sort of a bridge between like a like I 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:37.480 don't know, I guess like capital p political organization and 0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:40.600 the social stuff. Is it's a it's a it's a 0:24:40.640 --> 0:24:43.840 really interesting idea, and yeah, I don't know, I think 0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:45.840 I don't know. I think I think this is like 0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:49.560 this is a very cool project, and yeah, I'm looking 0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:51.920 forward to seeing what else comes out of it as 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:54.640 the new session sort of approaches. 0:24:55.640 --> 0:24:57.959 Yeah, I think what you're just saying about, like, how 0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:00.119 do you learn about what happened to occupy oak And 0:25:00.640 --> 0:25:04.080 without having to go through like three layers of signal 0:25:04.160 --> 0:25:07.080 chats or something to find the right person to learn 0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:13.560 from anonymously being as preface with allegedly this happened. Is 0:25:13.560 --> 0:25:16.080 a real problem that we've thought about. Like, I think 0:25:16.880 --> 0:25:21.040 a big thing for us that we've found is a 0:25:21.119 --> 0:25:23.720 role that we can play, is that there is a 0:25:23.880 --> 0:25:27.919 need out there for there to be some sort of 0:25:28.680 --> 0:25:32.359 we call it mask off anarchism, like there needs to 0:25:32.400 --> 0:25:37.920 be a public facing, approachable space where you can actually 0:25:38.000 --> 0:25:42.639 just learn about stuff. And yeah, there is definitely a 0:25:42.720 --> 0:25:48.879 need for operational security culture or for clandestine things, but 0:25:48.920 --> 0:25:51.800 that those things don't need to be everything for those 0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:56.200 who even exist. You need levels that are more open 0:25:56.280 --> 0:26:00.800 to people. Otherwise those things just become increased we lost, 0:26:01.280 --> 0:26:04.280 they go down the memory hole, as they say, or 0:26:04.680 --> 0:26:07.479 the Latin American groups like to talk about anarchism becoming 0:26:07.480 --> 0:26:12.160 ghetto wise further and further, like separated from mainstream society, 0:26:12.240 --> 0:26:14.639 and there's no ways in unless you, like, you know, 0:26:14.720 --> 0:26:18.280 a guy. So that was something that was a problem 0:26:18.320 --> 0:26:24.160 we were encountering and something that like from our particular circumstances, 0:26:24.160 --> 0:26:27.240 we felt like we could provide and maybe start and 0:26:27.320 --> 0:26:28.720 modeling for people as a group. 0:26:29.480 --> 0:26:32.360 I think also, like you mentioned there like this idea 0:26:32.560 --> 0:26:38.000 of memory and what what black Rose has referred to 0:26:38.040 --> 0:26:42.000 in their program as muscle memory. Like for our organizations, 0:26:42.080 --> 0:26:45.800 this idea that like, I mean, organizing seems so mysterious 0:26:45.840 --> 0:26:49.080 to us because we don't have this like kind of active, 0:26:49.280 --> 0:26:52.440 like uh, living memory of how to do that. It's 0:26:52.440 --> 0:26:55.119 not just a thing we do by second nature or 0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:59.560 like without without really needing a lot of work. And 0:26:59.600 --> 0:27:04.639 so I think in that sense, like we could also 0:27:04.720 --> 0:27:08.119 think of there being two kinds of struggles going on, 0:27:08.440 --> 0:27:12.960 where Like on the social level, the struggle is the 0:27:13.000 --> 0:27:19.240 class struggle and the antagonists are the dominant people in society. 0:27:19.240 --> 0:27:23.000 It is the ruling class, it is the status quo, 0:27:23.359 --> 0:27:29.520 it is the capitalist system. But on the political level, 0:27:29.560 --> 0:27:32.760 there's also struggle because it's not about everybody, you know, 0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:38.240 just being one uniform block. It is about that struggle though, 0:27:38.800 --> 0:27:42.359 not being trying to topple each other but instead trying 0:27:42.400 --> 0:27:47.720 to develop and create unity. It's not find unity, it's 0:27:47.720 --> 0:27:51.560 not look for the people you have the most consensus with, 0:27:51.640 --> 0:27:54.359 because that in itself is even really limiting that we 0:27:54.400 --> 0:27:57.359 need to be able to form new agreement. We need 0:27:57.400 --> 0:28:01.080 to be able to find and struggle for that unity 0:28:01.320 --> 0:28:04.320 with people who aren't trying to just aim for a 0:28:04.400 --> 0:28:08.240 divisive end. That there needs to be an antagonist on 0:28:08.320 --> 0:28:11.680 the social level, but on the political level, the goal 0:28:11.760 --> 0:28:15.960 is unity. It's not it's not struggle for the sake 0:28:16.040 --> 0:28:19.680 of taking down the opponent. And so in that sense, 0:28:19.720 --> 0:28:24.560 like something else that we do in Militant Kindergarten and 0:28:24.600 --> 0:28:27.560 in the Center for Us BECIFIESMO studies is not just 0:28:27.600 --> 0:28:31.359 try to do a reading, but try to produce a reading. 0:28:31.440 --> 0:28:34.399 Try to leave behind some kind of trace of our reading. 0:28:35.000 --> 0:28:39.200 That that's an important aspect of this. So all of 0:28:39.200 --> 0:28:42.360 our sessions we take thorough notes, and those notes are 0:28:42.360 --> 0:28:45.040 available to all the participants. People can go back through 0:28:45.080 --> 0:28:48.160 it later to look at what was said if they 0:28:48.200 --> 0:28:51.120 missed a session, or if they'd like to follow along 0:28:51.120 --> 0:28:54.240 with those as they as the conversation goes to help 0:28:54.280 --> 0:28:58.760 add you know, other aspects of support. Then what we 0:28:58.840 --> 0:29:00.840 do is we have a whole other team that goes 0:29:00.880 --> 0:29:04.280 through those notes afterward and produces a kind of internal 0:29:04.480 --> 0:29:10.040 journalistic writeup of what happened in that meeting, and so 0:29:10.160 --> 0:29:14.920 we will also be releasing those this year as part 0:29:14.960 --> 0:29:18.120 of our kind of monthly publishing that we'll be. 0:29:18.080 --> 0:29:21.520 Doing so for people who are interested in this. When 0:29:21.600 --> 0:29:23.320 is it happening and how do you get involved? 0:29:24.240 --> 0:29:27.479 It starts on January thirteenth and it runs till April 0:29:27.520 --> 0:29:31.479 twentieth of next year, twenty twenty four, And we're going 0:29:31.480 --> 0:29:34.840 to be holding the session on Saturday two to four 0:29:34.880 --> 0:29:39.880 pm in Pacific time US, which is not the greatest 0:29:39.880 --> 0:29:42.959 time for everybody, but it's where most of us are based, 0:29:43.600 --> 0:29:46.160 kind of on the edge of time here on the 0:29:46.160 --> 0:29:49.600 West coast. And the best way to get involved is 0:29:49.640 --> 0:29:51.800 to just send us an email. We have the email 0:29:52.160 --> 0:29:56.480 specifies most studies at gmail dot com, and that's the 0:29:56.520 --> 0:30:00.400 way to sort of start the enrolling process needs to 0:30:00.400 --> 0:30:03.000 take the one step send us an email, and we'll 0:30:03.000 --> 0:30:06.560 get you signed up and all the materials and zoom 0:30:06.560 --> 0:30:07.520 link and all that stuff. 0:30:08.160 --> 0:30:10.200 Yeah, and well, we'll put the email in the description 0:30:10.840 --> 0:30:15.239 youah probably links to the website too, I think. On 0:30:15.280 --> 0:30:18.240 that note, unless you have anything else that you want 0:30:18.280 --> 0:30:21.080 to say or plug no, I think that's it. 0:30:21.560 --> 0:30:25.400 Yeah, good breath. I would like to see people there. 0:30:25.520 --> 0:30:29.080 It's going to be an interesting year. I can guarantee that. 0:30:30.160 --> 0:30:33.160 Yeah, we're yeah, like the literal year. 0:30:33.560 --> 0:30:35.840 Twenty twenty four. Who knows what's going to happen, And 0:30:35.920 --> 0:30:38.360 even kindergarten is going to be pretty interesting. We've had 0:30:39.360 --> 0:30:42.640 a lot more people contacting us than last year, so 0:30:42.680 --> 0:30:45.360 it's going to be a pretty big and diverse group. 0:30:45.440 --> 0:30:49.120 So it'll be interesting to see kind of what everybody's 0:30:49.160 --> 0:30:53.440 able to produce out of that gathering and learning space. 0:30:54.640 --> 0:30:57.560 Yeah, you know, maybe another thing just to say real quick, 0:30:57.640 --> 0:31:00.440 is just that even if somebody doesn't feel they could 0:31:00.440 --> 0:31:03.080 make that time, it's still worth reaching out to us. 0:31:04.160 --> 0:31:08.040 We you know, will be developing other seminars and things 0:31:08.080 --> 0:31:12.280 in the future. And if you don't think that you'd 0:31:12.280 --> 0:31:14.560 be able to make to all the sessions, like, don't 0:31:14.560 --> 0:31:17.000 worry about that either. That's part of why we do 0:31:17.080 --> 0:31:20.000 this every year is that we expect that, you know, 0:31:20.160 --> 0:31:23.720 working people without a lot of time will need more 0:31:23.760 --> 0:31:26.800 than one year to you know, get all this information. 0:31:27.000 --> 0:31:29.000 So we expect people to need to kind of be 0:31:29.080 --> 0:31:33.719 cobbling together a few sessions here and there for several times, 0:31:33.920 --> 0:31:37.240 and yeah, you're definitely welcome to do that and shouldn't 0:31:37.240 --> 0:31:39.400 feel as if it's like a kind of start and 0:31:39.440 --> 0:31:41.840 then you're stuck and afraid to start. 0:31:42.080 --> 0:31:46.080 So yeah, yeah, it's a sort of an endurance study group. 0:31:46.200 --> 0:31:50.560 So yeah, we don't want anyone burning themselves out. Just 0:31:50.600 --> 0:31:52.880 do what you can start together and together. 0:31:53.320 --> 0:31:55.560 Yeah, it sounds like it's going to be a great program, 0:31:55.760 --> 0:31:59.400 and yeah, excited to see what comes out of it. 0:31:59.480 --> 0:32:01.640 And yeah, if you want, if if you want to 0:32:01.640 --> 0:32:04.720 get your theoretical stuff in before fighting season presumably starts 0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:08.480 again around the election. Uh, yeah, now is the time. 0:32:08.880 --> 0:32:12.800 It's gonna be really chaotic and for the next like 0:32:14.400 --> 0:32:18.000 long time. So this is this is your opportunity. Now. 0:32:18.960 --> 0:32:22.000 Yeah, we'll need some good ideas to arm ourselves with. Yeah, 0:32:22.040 --> 0:32:23.120 this one it's gonna be rough. 0:32:24.480 --> 0:32:24.720 Yep. 0:32:26.360 --> 0:32:28.920 And yeah, on that note, this has been naked up 0:32:28.920 --> 0:32:32.080 in here. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram, 0:32:32.080 --> 0:32:39.760 at fulls on media, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, go go, go, 0:32:39.760 --> 0:32:44.479 go into the world and learn and then use that 0:32:44.680 --> 0:33:06.000 to make the world less gone off. It's it's another 0:33:06.080 --> 0:33:09.040 Chicago episode. It's it could happen here, the podcast where 0:33:09.040 --> 0:33:12.880 things fall apart. I'm your host, Nea Wong. This is 0:33:12.920 --> 0:33:17.520 this is another episode about Chicago police departments who occupy 0:33:17.560 --> 0:33:20.440 a city groaning under its tyranny, and with you to 0:33:20.480 --> 0:33:25.760 talk about some absolutely bad shit Chicago police stuff and 0:33:25.960 --> 0:33:30.800 also how Randon Johnson our mayor is also shit? Is 0:33:31.120 --> 0:33:33.680 Raven the Chicago journalist from Jingspress. 0:33:33.800 --> 0:33:35.880 Hi is our mayor? 0:33:35.960 --> 0:33:36.120 Ever? 0:33:36.280 --> 0:33:36.800 Not shit? 0:33:38.480 --> 0:33:44.520 You know, No, it's all shit. It's never not bad. 0:33:44.840 --> 0:33:45.840 It's never not bad. 0:33:45.960 --> 0:33:50.400 And it's always like, you know, the progressive darling who 0:33:50.520 --> 0:33:54.640 ran on promises and then slowly breaks them and you know, 0:33:54.880 --> 0:33:57.000 breaks everyone's hearts over time. 0:33:57.680 --> 0:34:02.920 Yeah, I will I will say Johnson wasted absolutely no 0:34:03.120 --> 0:34:06.680 time on the heartbreaking part, like he really he really 0:34:06.720 --> 0:34:09.560 just wanted to rush that shit out. So there's a 0:34:09.600 --> 0:34:12.000 lot of there's a lot of Brandon Johnson stuff that 0:34:12.040 --> 0:34:15.120 we could talk about and we will want eventually, we're 0:34:15.120 --> 0:34:18.200 gonna do the episode on the bigrant camp in the 0:34:18.239 --> 0:34:23.000 fucking the migrant camp and the toxic waste dump, but 0:34:24.840 --> 0:34:27.839 that that's gonna happen next year. Right now, we want 0:34:27.880 --> 0:34:31.640 to talk about a different utterly insane Chicago thing. Well 0:34:31.719 --> 0:34:33.799 it is actually a thing in other cities too. I 0:34:33.840 --> 0:34:36.680 wanted to talk about shot Spotter, So I guess to 0:34:36.800 --> 0:34:39.600 start with, can you explain what shot spotter is for 0:34:39.680 --> 0:34:43.239 people who don't have it in their city or don't know. 0:34:43.960 --> 0:34:46.560 Well, it's in i want to say, like one hundred 0:34:46.560 --> 0:34:50.640 and thirty different cities across the country, so a lot 0:34:50.719 --> 0:34:53.120 of people probably do have it. But it's a gunshot 0:34:53.280 --> 0:34:58.360 detection system. So basically just you know, through a bunch 0:34:58.400 --> 0:35:01.319 of fancy tech stuff we won't get into, and I'm 0:35:01.360 --> 0:35:04.080 not even going to pretend to understand that side of it. 0:35:04.080 --> 0:35:07.399 It's there are these audio sensors that are installed all 0:35:07.400 --> 0:35:13.960 around the city, right and in predominantly black and brown neighborhoods. 0:35:14.000 --> 0:35:17.040 You know, they're specifically in Chicago. There's actually a lawsuit 0:35:17.840 --> 0:35:22.880 currently up and coming filed by the MacArthur Justice Center 0:35:23.120 --> 0:35:25.680 over the fact that they are primarily installed in black 0:35:25.680 --> 0:35:28.200 and brown neighborhoods and not on like the North Side. 0:35:29.160 --> 0:35:31.840 And yeah, it's just a bunch of fancy little stuff 0:35:31.880 --> 0:35:35.439 that detects noises that are supposed to be gunshots, right, 0:35:36.360 --> 0:35:41.719 so any loud popping or bringing sound, you know, could 0:35:41.800 --> 0:35:43.239 could potentially set them off. 0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:46.400 Yeah, and unfortunately, as anyone who's ever been in a 0:35:46.440 --> 0:35:50.960 city and had a car backfire nose. People are just 0:35:51.160 --> 0:35:54.880 indescribably dogshit at telling what is a gunshot and what 0:35:55.000 --> 0:35:58.759 is not a gunshot exactly exactly. 0:35:58.920 --> 0:36:02.960 And I mean there's so much evidence too, like there 0:36:03.040 --> 0:36:06.160 been I mean are here in Chicago, Like our Office 0:36:06.200 --> 0:36:09.160 of the Inspector General wrote like a whole report about 0:36:09.160 --> 0:36:11.480 all of shots bars failures. But there's a bunch of 0:36:11.520 --> 0:36:15.640 other research out there across the country about how inaccurate 0:36:15.719 --> 0:36:22.359 this is. And you know, it's generating tens of thousands 0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:27.000 of also like unjustified CPD deployments, like because when the 0:36:27.040 --> 0:36:32.239 alert goes off, the cops get deployed, and you know, 0:36:32.560 --> 0:36:36.960 it doesn't tell you anything about even if there was 0:36:37.000 --> 0:36:39.600 a gunshot, like who fired a gun? You know, all 0:36:39.640 --> 0:36:43.080 it's telling you is in this area. You know this 0:36:43.320 --> 0:36:47.680 was determined. So you can imagine like all of these 0:36:47.760 --> 0:36:51.120 you know, police encounters happening in response to these alerts, 0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:52.640 like all the shit that could go wrong. 0:36:53.120 --> 0:36:56.160 Yeah, and it's CPD, right, Like the Chicago Police Department's 0:36:56.160 --> 0:36:59.879 motto was shoot first, don't ask questions later. So right, 0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:04.520 this is a this is an absolutely terrible idea. It's 0:37:04.560 --> 0:37:07.560 just sending all of these cops on random wild goose chases. 0:37:08.400 --> 0:37:11.200 Yeah, yeah, well, and it's what happened, was I mean, 0:37:11.200 --> 0:37:16.319 most people probably remember Adam Toledo shooting. Those cops, you know, 0:37:16.480 --> 0:37:21.719 were initially assigned to patrol that area because it was 0:37:21.800 --> 0:37:29.560 designated as a violence box, you know, and ShotSpotter brought 0:37:29.600 --> 0:37:32.480 them to the alley like where this thirteen year old 0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:37.400 kid was, you know, shot and killed by police because 0:37:37.520 --> 0:37:40.480 another and older man was with him and fired a 0:37:40.480 --> 0:37:42.960 gun and then handed him the weapon. Yeah. 0:37:43.000 --> 0:37:46.000 And that's another that's another one of the problems with 0:37:46.040 --> 0:37:48.560 the technology, which is that even if it does detect 0:37:48.600 --> 0:37:52.400 a gunshot, the thing that detecting a gunshot does and 0:37:52.440 --> 0:37:55.000 send it to the police is send a bunch of 0:37:55.600 --> 0:37:59.960 like absolutely unhinged murderers to a place and like make 0:38:00.080 --> 0:38:04.480 to incredibly paranoid and then you know, have them in 0:38:04.719 --> 0:38:07.440 like deal with the situation mode. And what Chicago cops 0:38:07.480 --> 0:38:09.360 do when they're in deal with the situation mode is 0:38:09.400 --> 0:38:11.040 they take out a gun, they shoot a thirteen year 0:38:11.080 --> 0:38:11.759 old and kill them. 0:38:12.120 --> 0:38:16.560 Yeah. Yeah, and the you know, the officer that shaw 0:38:16.640 --> 0:38:20.400 him too, had had this one like rarely talked about 0:38:20.440 --> 0:38:23.080 in the media. I think I don't know. It just 0:38:23.120 --> 0:38:25.440 wasn't something that came up much when that was all happening. 0:38:25.520 --> 0:38:28.799 But like that officer had a weird incident that was 0:38:28.800 --> 0:38:32.319 recorded on bodycam like a little bit before he shot 0:38:32.360 --> 0:38:34.040 and killed out in Toledo. I don't remember if it 0:38:34.080 --> 0:38:36.160 was like months before, I don't know the timeline, but 0:38:36.160 --> 0:38:39.000 it was fairly close to that where he like pulled 0:38:39.000 --> 0:38:41.520 someone over at a traffic stop and was just acting 0:38:41.640 --> 0:38:45.440 really jumpy and strange. H And it was kind of 0:38:45.520 --> 0:38:50.319 investigated as like, you know, an undostified traffic stop and 0:38:50.160 --> 0:38:52.520 and nothing happened with that. But it's just an example 0:38:52.600 --> 0:38:57.360 of like how there were potentially warning signs because this 0:38:57.440 --> 0:39:00.440 guy was also like a war veteran, you know, and 0:39:00.560 --> 0:39:06.160 jumpy to begin with. And so yeah, you're sending these 0:39:06.200 --> 0:39:10.480 guys into these areas who are already ready to go 0:39:10.520 --> 0:39:11.680 off at a trigger, right. 0:39:12.080 --> 0:39:15.719 Yeah, And you know, and there's like there's no actual 0:39:15.960 --> 0:39:21.000 good outcome of this, because like I guess, arguably the 0:39:21.000 --> 0:39:24.439 best possible outcome is the cops show up, there's nobody there, 0:39:24.560 --> 0:39:26.200 enters out to have been a false alarm, but that 0:39:26.239 --> 0:39:29.719 means we're paying the cops an unbelievable amount of money 0:39:29.719 --> 0:39:32.480 to do nothing, and that's the best outcome, right. 0:39:32.600 --> 0:39:36.440 And the way the alerts work also too, is like 0:39:36.520 --> 0:39:41.600 unless the police file a complaint that an alert was false, 0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:45.920 like a false alarm, it's automatically flagged in the system 0:39:46.040 --> 0:39:49.759 as like a positive. Because there's all this algorithmic stuff 0:39:49.760 --> 0:39:53.440 that happens, like with the shotswarter detection, where like, yeah, 0:39:53.480 --> 0:39:56.160 the system detects it, but then also it goes to 0:39:56.280 --> 0:39:59.520 like their I don't know, their whole systems like researchers 0:39:59.600 --> 0:40:01.400 or whatever kind of put it all together and like 0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:04.759 package a report about what happened. And so unless a 0:40:04.760 --> 0:40:07.319 police complain and are like, oh, you know, this one 0:40:07.400 --> 0:40:09.640 was false, or this was a this one was wrong, 0:40:09.719 --> 0:40:12.080 this was a firework, this is a car back firing, 0:40:12.719 --> 0:40:14.840 and of course like CPD is not doing. 0:40:14.640 --> 0:40:17.719 That, yeah, because and I mean, I mean, this is 0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:20.080 one of the problems with the system just inherently, if 0:40:20.120 --> 0:40:23.600 even if you think that on some level this technology 0:40:23.600 --> 0:40:25.719 could work, is that both the company's shots spotter and 0:40:25.800 --> 0:40:30.520 the police have an enormous inherent incentive to make like, 0:40:30.680 --> 0:40:33.839 at very least pretend that every single one of these 0:40:33.880 --> 0:40:36.799 detections is real. Because if you're a police officer, right, 0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:38.239 and you can point it. Oh, hey, look at how 0:40:38.239 --> 0:40:40.560 many shots are being fired around the city all the time. 0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:42.400 You know you need to give us more funding. This 0:40:42.440 --> 0:40:45.000 is incredibly useful for them if your ShotSpotter. You don't 0:40:45.040 --> 0:40:50.319 want everyone to know that your system detects like a 0:40:50.600 --> 0:40:53.239 bird dropping an acorn out of a tree next to 0:40:53.239 --> 0:40:55.520 your sensor or whatever. Like, you don't actually want people 0:40:55.560 --> 0:40:59.320 to know that your your system brings up false positives 0:40:59.400 --> 0:41:03.080 all the time, and it's actually basically completely useless, right, Yeah, 0:41:03.120 --> 0:41:05.680 and so the incentive structure is just bad. It's just 0:41:05.719 --> 0:41:07.880 it's only going to produce bad results. 0:41:08.320 --> 0:41:10.640 Yeah. Well, and it's kind of like somebody, I don't 0:41:10.680 --> 0:41:13.319 I forget where I read this, but somebody likened it 0:41:13.360 --> 0:41:15.960 to if you had an informant working for you and 0:41:16.000 --> 0:41:18.920 they were wrong nine times out of ten, would you 0:41:18.960 --> 0:41:20.280 still use them? 0:41:20.800 --> 0:41:22.920 Well, CPD would like to be. 0:41:24.440 --> 0:41:26.759 To be fair, but like if you were a journalist 0:41:26.880 --> 0:41:29.640 and you had a source that lied nine times out 0:41:29.640 --> 0:41:32.359 of ten, you know, or was wrong nine times out 0:41:32.400 --> 0:41:35.480 of ten, would would you call them back? Would you 0:41:35.520 --> 0:41:36.280 trust that source? 0:41:36.760 --> 0:41:37.279 You know? Well? 0:41:37.400 --> 0:41:39.279 And the other thing too is this isn't even it's 0:41:39.320 --> 0:41:41.840 not even just like this is an informant, right because 0:41:42.040 --> 0:41:44.040 you know, shot spot is wrong and annoymous percentage of 0:41:44.040 --> 0:41:45.920 the time. But the thing is you don't have to 0:41:45.960 --> 0:41:48.759 pay informants eight million dollars a year, which is what 0:41:48.880 --> 0:41:53.959 we're paying for this dog shit shots fire system. 0:41:54.320 --> 0:42:00.360 Yeah, well, I mean the company itself all so like 0:42:00.360 --> 0:42:04.600 they're so embedded with what's going on, like with police departments. 0:42:04.640 --> 0:42:08.279 You know, they're Shotswater is leveraging their own money to 0:42:08.360 --> 0:42:11.760 try to like win police contracts that include shots fotter. 0:42:12.880 --> 0:42:18.200 You know, they advise different police departments on how to 0:42:18.280 --> 0:42:23.279 respond to requests about ShotSpotter. So it's like it's not 0:42:23.400 --> 0:42:26.280 just like this this I don't know, this mutual tool 0:42:26.360 --> 0:42:28.439 that's just like out there that they're just using. It's 0:42:28.480 --> 0:42:33.880 like Shotswater has this vested interest in, uh, strengthening the 0:42:33.920 --> 0:42:35.120 police and vice versa. 0:42:35.840 --> 0:42:38.359 Yeah, and then it gets into one of these very 0:42:38.520 --> 0:42:40.680 very I mean it's a very common thing for the cops, right, 0:42:40.840 --> 0:42:44.959 but one of these unbelievably messed up spirals where like, yeah, 0:42:45.000 --> 0:42:50.719 like everyone everyone involved has you know, the cops want 0:42:50.800 --> 0:42:52.840 want more power. These guys want more money, and the 0:42:52.880 --> 0:42:54.560 more money you give them, the more money they have 0:42:54.640 --> 0:42:56.680 to then turn around again and put back into the 0:42:56.719 --> 0:42:59.439 political system so you can you buy more power, which 0:42:59.440 --> 0:43:01.480 they can again turn into more money every single time 0:43:01.560 --> 0:43:02.600 another contract. 0:43:02.280 --> 0:43:06.399 Comes up right right on, which they just they just did. 0:43:06.480 --> 0:43:09.320 Brandon Johnson just gave them more money in their contract. 0:43:10.000 --> 0:43:12.359 Yeah, and we should talk about this because Okay, so 0:43:12.440 --> 0:43:16.600 Brandon Johnson ran a weird campaign in respect to the police, 0:43:16.840 --> 0:43:21.640 in the sense that he didn't really run a he 0:43:21.680 --> 0:43:26.640 didn't run an anti police campaign. I guess like his 0:43:26.719 --> 0:43:30.640 campaign was pretty pro police, but it also originally had 0:43:30.680 --> 0:43:33.600 things like taking cops out of schools, and very specifically 0:43:33.640 --> 0:43:36.680 he ran on canceling the ShotSpotter contract, which is a 0:43:36.760 --> 0:43:39.719 thing that everyone in like people in Chicago who aren't 0:43:39.760 --> 0:43:42.920 who don't live in like cop neighborhoods. Basically like it's 0:43:42.960 --> 0:43:46.200 pretty popular to cancel this contract because it's it's millions 0:43:46.200 --> 0:43:49.200 of dollars a year going to nonsense that just throws 0:43:49.200 --> 0:43:52.239 cops everywhere. And then he got into office and his 0:43:52.280 --> 0:43:56.800 budget still has the ShotSpotter shit in it. So huh, 0:43:56.840 --> 0:43:58.040 electoralism win. 0:43:58.400 --> 0:43:58.680 Yay. 0:44:00.320 --> 0:44:02.960 Yeah, I mean it wasn't explicit. It was an explicit 0:44:03.360 --> 0:44:06.600 campaign promise, Like, it wasn't just like Oh, we were 0:44:06.640 --> 0:44:09.480 hoping that he would do this because he's like our 0:44:09.520 --> 0:44:12.560 big movement guy. It was like he explicitly made it 0:44:12.600 --> 0:44:16.080 part of his platform was ending the contract for shot Spotter, 0:44:17.239 --> 0:44:22.480 and now he is not, and there's there's some time 0:44:22.640 --> 0:44:26.319 left before the budget hearing. I think it's like, I 0:44:26.320 --> 0:44:28.399 don't know, like fifty five days. I might be off 0:44:28.440 --> 0:44:31.640 by a few days there, but there's only around, you know, 0:44:31.760 --> 0:44:35.200 two months left, and since he's been elected. So like 0:44:35.400 --> 0:44:37.080 the other thing, I mean, this is like the shady 0:44:37.120 --> 0:44:39.799 part too, is like since he's been elected, he's been 0:44:39.880 --> 0:44:42.080 asked whether he'll extend the contract and he's just like 0:44:42.120 --> 0:44:43.359 refused to answer. 0:44:43.360 --> 0:44:45.799 Which is a really great politician stuff, like you know, 0:44:46.520 --> 0:44:51.240 you you know that your politicians being completely normal and nothing, 0:44:51.920 --> 0:44:54.440 everything is above board when they just straight up refuse 0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:57.840 to answer questions, only good things ever result from that. 0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:02.920 Yeah, And it's been there's been like a lot of 0:45:04.360 --> 0:45:09.400 similar sort of just like I don't know, lack of 0:45:09.440 --> 0:45:14.560 transparency kind of incidents with him over the last however 0:45:14.600 --> 0:45:16.719 longest been since he's been elected, God has been a 0:45:16.719 --> 0:45:20.839 long year. It's kind of like there's this pattern now. 0:45:21.960 --> 0:45:30.120 So yeah, I mean there were people who kind of Look, 0:45:30.440 --> 0:45:33.319 he was never like the abolitionist like I'm going to 0:45:33.360 --> 0:45:36.200 abolish the police, mayor, and like I get that. I 0:45:36.200 --> 0:45:41.799 think a lot of people get that. But there's a 0:45:41.800 --> 0:45:46.400 pretty big departure kind of between how he's approaching policing 0:45:47.080 --> 0:45:51.880 and what Yeah, a lot of movement people or leftists 0:45:52.040 --> 0:45:56.759 or abolitionists want you know, every encounter with a cop 0:45:56.840 --> 0:46:01.359 is a potential for violence, right, And he's coming at 0:46:01.360 --> 0:46:02.799 it more from the side of like, well, we just 0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:07.200 need to rebuild trust in the police, and the community 0:46:07.280 --> 0:46:08.759 just needs to you know, like we're just going to 0:46:08.800 --> 0:46:12.040 rebuild trust and we're going to get these bad cops out. 0:46:12.120 --> 0:46:15.680 We're going to have only good cops left and then everything. 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:19.759 I don't know what the logic there is personally, but 0:46:20.160 --> 0:46:23.440 the you know, the logic is that we'll just have 0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:25.960 good police encounters then. And it's just like this refusal 0:46:26.000 --> 0:46:28.800 to acknowledge that like policing itself is a problem. 0:46:29.880 --> 0:46:33.560 Yeah, we are on year fifty of the mayor says 0:46:33.600 --> 0:46:36.440 we need to restore trust in the police, We'll get 0:46:36.520 --> 0:46:39.080 rid of the bad cops and everything. Like year fifty, 0:46:39.160 --> 0:46:43.000 we are on what number of torture scandals? Are we 0:46:43.120 --> 0:46:46.719 on since people first started saying this, like, I, it's 0:46:46.880 --> 0:46:48.160 just right. 0:46:48.160 --> 0:46:50.719 We shouldn't be laughing at torture. But it's like, yeah, 0:46:50.760 --> 0:46:53.279 it's like every I don't know, every month there is 0:46:53.320 --> 0:46:56.479 a new Chicago police scandal. I literally cannot keep track. 0:46:57.080 --> 0:47:00.560 Yeah, and okay, so we're going to talk about one 0:47:00.600 --> 0:47:06.280 of those scandals. But first, uh, we're gonna talk about ads. 0:47:06.320 --> 0:47:08.000 I was gonna do like a you know what else 0:47:08.080 --> 0:47:11.279 is a scandal, but I don't know. It's really late 0:47:12.360 --> 0:47:17.080 being up for an outrageous number of hours and we 0:47:17.200 --> 0:47:22.880 are back. So okay, speaking of Chicago police scandals, there's 0:47:22.960 --> 0:47:27.280 a lot. I mean, the CPD is always having scandals 0:47:27.320 --> 0:47:32.160 because Chicago cops are just evil. But yeah, do you 0:47:32.239 --> 0:47:35.879 want to talk about the specific shot spotter one that 0:47:35.960 --> 0:47:37.040 we're having right now? 0:47:38.719 --> 0:47:38.959 Yeah? 0:47:39.040 --> 0:47:43.920 I mean, well, there there are other Chicago police shot 0:47:43.920 --> 0:47:48.000 spotter scandals, but no, the most this most recent story 0:47:48.200 --> 0:47:49.839 you know that just came out. 0:47:50.200 --> 0:47:50.319 Uh. 0:47:50.560 --> 0:47:55.960 There's a political journalism site, slash blog. They're also our 0:47:56.000 --> 0:47:58.759 homiees we don't want to work with them, called people 0:47:58.840 --> 0:48:02.160 Stabric and they wrote, you know, an analysis of some 0:48:02.400 --> 0:48:06.239 videos that they obtained of what is like essentially a 0:48:06.760 --> 0:48:10.120 CPD gang. I mean everybody's heard of, like the LATD 0:48:10.280 --> 0:48:12.640 gangs were not everybody, but I'm sure a lot of 0:48:12.840 --> 0:48:17.000 listeners have followed the story out of out of la 0:48:17.120 --> 0:48:22.440 with like the Sheriff's deputies gangs just roaming around and 0:48:23.000 --> 0:48:28.399 committing horrible acts against people, and you know, in these 0:48:28.440 --> 0:48:31.480 sort of like cruise of bad cops and and this 0:48:31.640 --> 0:48:35.160 is definitely not the first instance of something like that 0:48:35.200 --> 0:48:38.839 happening in Chicago, but you know, there were just there 0:48:38.880 --> 0:48:42.120 was a lot of video evidence against these guys. One 0:48:42.160 --> 0:48:44.319 of them has been indicted. I don't know if the 0:48:44.480 --> 0:48:49.880 other three have, but yeah, they were just driving around 0:48:50.000 --> 0:48:53.319 basically terrorizing this community. You know, a lot of just 0:48:54.080 --> 0:48:57.640 unlawful stops, stopping people on the street, shaking them down 0:48:57.880 --> 0:49:04.160 for cash, drugs, and a lot of guns. And they 0:49:04.160 --> 0:49:08.319 were filing false reports about found guns, so like they 0:49:08.320 --> 0:49:13.560 would stop somebody take a gun and then log it 0:49:13.600 --> 0:49:19.600 as like a gun that was found And you know, 0:49:19.640 --> 0:49:23.120 in one instance, they said that they were a mile 0:49:23.160 --> 0:49:25.399 away from where a shot spotter alert had gone off 0:49:27.280 --> 0:49:29.799 and claimed that they looked around and just happened to 0:49:29.840 --> 0:49:32.040 find a gun on the ground. They had taken the 0:49:32.120 --> 0:49:33.840 gun from a woman. 0:49:33.960 --> 0:49:34.239 You know it. 0:49:34.840 --> 0:49:36.560 They didn't find it on the ground, but they were 0:49:36.600 --> 0:49:39.040 able to use the fact that there was a shot 0:49:39.080 --> 0:49:44.400 spotter alert that went off in that area as like 0:49:44.440 --> 0:49:45.720 a way to cover their tracks. 0:49:45.760 --> 0:49:50.799 Basically, Yeah, and this is something so we talked about 0:49:50.840 --> 0:49:54.440 on the show, like, oh god, was that like two 0:49:55.560 --> 0:49:58.640 years ago? It was a year ago. A while back 0:49:58.640 --> 0:50:03.640 we talked about on this show. The Chicago's used to 0:50:03.680 --> 0:50:07.080 have this police nic called Special Operations Sectionion SOS, which 0:50:08.000 --> 0:50:11.120 was disbanded after it was revealed they were doing literally 0:50:11.160 --> 0:50:12.719 the same thing, which is they would go up to 0:50:12.719 --> 0:50:17.440 people to rob them. And one of Chicago has one 0:50:17.440 --> 0:50:19.840 of these scandals about once. It like once a decade 0:50:19.840 --> 0:50:21.520 there's like a big one of these, and we're kind 0:50:21.520 --> 0:50:24.600 of due for one. We haven't had a really big 0:50:24.640 --> 0:50:27.279 one of these. Specifically, there's an entire section of the 0:50:27.320 --> 0:50:30.600 CPD that's just a burglar or a drug ring. So 0:50:31.120 --> 0:50:36.080 I suspect we're gonna find out more about this stuff 0:50:36.120 --> 0:50:40.120 because it's it's about time that another one of these 0:50:40.160 --> 0:50:42.759 turns up. But yeah, I mean, they were just like 0:50:43.560 --> 0:50:47.200 just rolling up on people, just going give me your 0:50:47.239 --> 0:50:50.280 gun and then driving away and saying don't tell anyone, 0:50:50.840 --> 0:50:52.920 which is really. 0:50:55.640 --> 0:50:56.640 Really yeah. 0:50:56.680 --> 0:51:00.520 Well, I'm like also for seemingly no reason, like some 0:51:00.640 --> 0:51:04.400 instances like there. I mean, we look, we can't know 0:51:04.480 --> 0:51:06.560 all of their motivations for everything, and a lot more 0:51:06.600 --> 0:51:08.120 is going to come out, I'm sure, like in the 0:51:08.160 --> 0:51:14.600 court proceedings. But it's like, were they trying to had 0:51:14.840 --> 0:51:20.160 the gun retrieval statistics and or were they trying to 0:51:20.239 --> 0:51:22.120 do something else? You know, they were like a tactical team, 0:51:22.320 --> 0:51:24.640 So I presume, I mean, I think it's the case 0:51:24.719 --> 0:51:27.920 that like there are certain gun retrieval statistics that CPD 0:51:28.080 --> 0:51:32.000 wants to mate, but you know, the other stuff like 0:51:32.040 --> 0:51:34.600 obviously taking cash from people, you know, like like there's 0:51:34.680 --> 0:51:36.759 other things they were doing, you know, and and they've 0:51:36.800 --> 0:51:40.560 always been look there, I'm not going to allege anything 0:51:40.600 --> 0:51:43.560 that isn't proven in the specific instance, but I will 0:51:43.600 --> 0:51:47.880 say that there have always been rumors about Chicago police 0:51:47.880 --> 0:51:53.200 officers specifically taking things like guns to like sell back, 0:51:53.520 --> 0:51:56.479 you know, to gangs basically, and same with drugs. Right, 0:51:58.800 --> 0:52:02.239 you know, these guys were we're logging some of them 0:52:02.280 --> 0:52:05.160 at least, but what if there were ones that they 0:52:05.160 --> 0:52:07.680 weren't logging, Like we don't know. I mean, this is 0:52:07.760 --> 0:52:11.000 just what we know happened and what was caught. And 0:52:11.160 --> 0:52:14.759 I mean they were dumb enough to like have some 0:52:14.800 --> 0:52:16.319 of this caught on their body camps. It's like they 0:52:16.320 --> 0:52:18.759 were turning their cameras off for like some parts of 0:52:18.800 --> 0:52:22.720 these stuffs, but like not others, or like the camera 0:52:22.760 --> 0:52:25.400 would be on and there's like you know, cash and 0:52:25.480 --> 0:52:27.200 drugs and then like oh, the camera goes off, and 0:52:27.239 --> 0:52:31.319 it's like, well, any logical person can deduce what may 0:52:31.320 --> 0:52:34.520 have happened here, like why turning your camera off? Right? 0:52:36.800 --> 0:52:39.279 And so yeah, they've always been rumors about kind of 0:52:39.320 --> 0:52:43.640 like what these crews driving around are like ultimately doing 0:52:43.680 --> 0:52:45.200 with this kind of stuff, and I think it just 0:52:45.360 --> 0:52:48.279 it varies depending on them. But I would also add, 0:52:48.320 --> 0:52:51.520 you know, the what you mentioned the special operations section. 0:52:51.680 --> 0:52:55.600 You know, we only recently learned there's like a Sun 0:52:55.680 --> 0:53:00.520 Times investigation into all the Chicago cops who were on 0:53:00.600 --> 0:53:05.200 the Hoast Keepers membership role. Oh and a number of 0:53:05.239 --> 0:53:10.080 those guys were in soos actually, so that's a fun 0:53:10.080 --> 0:53:10.680 little fact. 0:53:10.719 --> 0:53:14.759 Also, yeah, that's another one of the another episode in 0:53:14.800 --> 0:53:19.160 the endless parade of Juhago Police Department scandals is like, yeah, 0:53:19.239 --> 0:53:22.600 a bunch of these are in far right militias, which 0:53:22.640 --> 0:53:26.480 is this is this really interesting? So we did an 0:53:26.480 --> 0:53:29.480 episode pretty recently that I was talking about David Graber. 0:53:29.640 --> 0:53:31.440 One of one of the one of the points that 0:53:31.480 --> 0:53:35.360 he makes in this essay on Batman and the problem 0:53:35.360 --> 0:53:38.400 of constituent power, which is a wild thing to be 0:53:38.440 --> 0:53:39.840 citing in a police thing, but you know, one of 0:53:40.120 --> 0:53:42.120 the points that he makes is one of the one 0:53:42.160 --> 0:53:46.680 of the sort of key like fascist convergences. Is this 0:53:46.800 --> 0:53:50.560 cooperation between the police, the far right and organized crime 0:53:51.120 --> 0:53:54.000 and the CPD. Is this incredible nexus of it, right, 0:53:54.000 --> 0:53:57.160 I mean you it's literally the same person is all 0:53:57.200 --> 0:53:59.799 three of these things at the same time. It is 0:53:59.880 --> 0:54:03.000 a cup who is in a fart right militia who 0:54:03.080 --> 0:54:07.719 is also like literally just doing organized crime at the 0:54:07.760 --> 0:54:13.680 same time. It's really Yeah, you used to have to 0:54:13.719 --> 0:54:17.319 sort of like make metaphors, and you no longer have 0:54:17.400 --> 0:54:20.000 to do that. The metaphor just is real. You're just 0:54:20.080 --> 0:54:23.080 physically describing the event. It's really something. 0:54:24.000 --> 0:54:28.560 Yeah. I mean, when you really think about it, I 0:54:28.600 --> 0:54:32.360 think policing in and of itself is just like a 0:54:32.480 --> 0:54:35.759 cult like anything else. And it makes sense that like 0:54:35.960 --> 0:54:40.080 the same people who would gravitate towards like militia groups 0:54:40.160 --> 0:54:43.400 and like white supremacist groups, any any like I don't know, 0:54:43.680 --> 0:54:49.240 group where people kind of have those like hardline beliefs 0:54:49.280 --> 0:54:52.880 about the world. And then it's also just like a 0:54:52.880 --> 0:54:56.120 lot of these guys are like especially the ones on 0:54:56.160 --> 0:54:59.920 like taskal teams, they're all like fucking like traumatized war vetter, 0:55:01.040 --> 0:55:03.719 you know, they all have kind of these long backstories 0:55:03.719 --> 0:55:08.640 of like military service and just like to get onto 0:55:08.680 --> 0:55:10.960 like special ops or like the tactle reading, you know, 0:55:11.040 --> 0:55:13.640 et cetera, they kind of look for people with military experience, 0:55:13.760 --> 0:55:18.360 not always, but like frequently. And so there's also that 0:55:18.400 --> 0:55:22.080 intersection there two of like militarism and abroad and then 0:55:22.120 --> 0:55:23.400 like policing at home. 0:55:23.480 --> 0:55:26.440 Right, Yeah, and that's a really common thread. I mean, 0:55:26.520 --> 0:55:30.319 just like across the entire world. This is a thing 0:55:30.360 --> 0:55:34.000 where like the police office, like the police groups that 0:55:34.040 --> 0:55:36.359 are the most likely to go completely rogue and either 0:55:36.440 --> 0:55:40.520 just start murdering people randomly or turn into organized crime things, 0:55:40.520 --> 0:55:42.839 like are these special operations units there. There was like 0:55:43.200 --> 0:55:45.040 in twenty twenty, they were these huge protests and like 0:55:45.080 --> 0:55:48.160 anti police protests in Nigeria that were specifically about trying 0:55:48.160 --> 0:55:50.360 to get one of these special operations like police special 0:55:50.400 --> 0:55:55.600 operation things, I like abolished because special operations guys just 0:55:55.680 --> 0:55:59.960 kept shooting everyone and this, you know, like every single 0:56:00.040 --> 0:56:02.000 like this happens just everywhere in the world that these 0:56:02.200 --> 0:56:04.680 it is like, you know, I mean, obviously normal cops 0:56:04.719 --> 0:56:08.280 also do crime. And we talked also another episode about 0:56:08.320 --> 0:56:10.200 some kind of normal cops. You did a cartel and 0:56:10.280 --> 0:56:15.360 like the the twenty tens, but the special operations groups 0:56:15.400 --> 0:56:18.560 go off the rails at a rate that is staggering, 0:56:19.200 --> 0:56:22.640 which you would think, you would think someone in government 0:56:22.680 --> 0:56:24.680 would look at this, like even if you're a pro 0:56:24.680 --> 0:56:27.080 police person, you would look at this and go, wait, 0:56:27.120 --> 0:56:29.880 maybe it's a bad idea to have specifically formed these 0:56:30.000 --> 0:56:33.480 units that every single time turned into a cartel. But no, no, 0:56:34.000 --> 0:56:37.279 they ever do this because the point of cops is 0:56:37.320 --> 0:56:39.800 not to not form cartels. 0:56:40.400 --> 0:56:43.120 Well, I think also too, there's like a very uh, 0:56:43.920 --> 0:56:46.640 I don't know, I guess neoliberal sort of line of 0:56:46.680 --> 0:56:51.440 thinking about like policing and how like we really really 0:56:51.560 --> 0:56:55.919 need like the tactical, high skill kind of units. Right 0:56:56.080 --> 0:56:59.120 Like there's always like we're giving the cop, we're always 0:56:59.160 --> 0:57:02.160 tearing the cops more more, and that's for training. Training 0:57:02.239 --> 0:57:04.680 is a big justification for why we're always giving you 0:57:04.680 --> 0:57:07.680 them more money. But so there's like you know, skills 0:57:07.719 --> 0:57:11.839 and sort of technology, and like I think as we're 0:57:11.880 --> 0:57:14.799 dealing with i don't know, like mass shootings and like 0:57:14.840 --> 0:57:17.840 all this really horrible stuff just like going on around 0:57:17.880 --> 0:57:19.760 us at all times too. Now, it's like it's a 0:57:19.840 --> 0:57:24.920 really I think easy way to justify policing to people 0:57:25.640 --> 0:57:28.480 is like honor the guise of these like tactical units 0:57:28.800 --> 0:57:31.320 or units with like a lot of firepower to deal 0:57:31.360 --> 0:57:36.480 with like really really bad guys. Quote right, Like you know, 0:57:37.040 --> 0:57:39.400 maybe those people might be like, oh, we've like fewer 0:57:39.440 --> 0:57:42.640 cops thetrolling our neighborhoods. You know, we're kind of we 0:57:42.720 --> 0:57:45.520 get like, you know, black lives matter or whatever, but 0:57:45.600 --> 0:57:49.760 they're like, but we really need to, you know, have 0:57:50.120 --> 0:57:52.520 the big guns ready for when something bad comes to 0:57:52.560 --> 0:57:55.280 our neighborhood. And so I think that's also like a 0:57:56.240 --> 0:57:58.120 sticking point for a lot of people on the on 0:57:58.200 --> 0:58:00.520 the way to like actually thinking about it. Polishing the 0:58:00.520 --> 0:58:03.520 police too is like what would we do without these 0:58:03.640 --> 0:58:05.800 units the guys with like all these skills and all 0:58:05.840 --> 0:58:09.480 these crazy weapons to like help us if if if 0:58:09.480 --> 0:58:13.000 a bad guy comes and of course the guys, like 0:58:13.240 --> 0:58:17.240 the bad guys are those guys like Guy Well. 0:58:17.240 --> 0:58:19.000 And there's the more cynical side of it too, which 0:58:19.040 --> 0:58:21.520 is like, you know, if you're if you're the mayor 0:58:21.560 --> 0:58:23.720 of Chicago, it's like, well, someone has to shoot the 0:58:23.760 --> 0:58:26.760 black panthers, right, Like you need to have guys whose 0:58:26.840 --> 0:58:30.600 job it is to like when when you know, when 0:58:30.680 --> 0:58:33.120 like revolutionary movements started up, you need like someone has 0:58:33.160 --> 0:58:39.959 to start shooting those guys. So yeah, so I want 0:58:39.960 --> 0:58:44.400 to go back to talk a bit more about the 0:58:45.200 --> 0:58:48.480 like shot spatter and the budget stuff that's been happening, 0:58:49.480 --> 0:58:57.120 because so the current the current budget has what is it, 0:58:57.160 --> 0:59:01.400 I think it like doubles the the any raises that 0:59:01.400 --> 0:59:04.120 that cops were getting. Is that the right number? 0:59:04.480 --> 0:59:06.640 I don't know if it doubled, but I read that 0:59:06.720 --> 0:59:10.520 it was actually wait, yeah, so it's it's five percent, 0:59:10.600 --> 0:59:12.920 up from like two point five. Yeah, it's double. It's 0:59:12.960 --> 0:59:17.040 also the largest package of raises for any city employee 0:59:17.160 --> 0:59:22.040 union in modern history. I mean, I'm directly quoting a 0:59:22.080 --> 0:59:25.440 Better Government analysis, but but but yeah, no, like literally 0:59:25.560 --> 0:59:28.280 it is. It is an enormous It is an enormous race. 0:59:28.560 --> 0:59:31.480 And here's the thing. The cops were thrilled with this contract. 0:59:32.360 --> 0:59:35.840 Uh the hat of fop John Cavanzara, who is just 0:59:35.920 --> 0:59:40.400 like a racist, misogynistic, horrible, just like garbage dump of 0:59:40.400 --> 0:59:44.480 a person, you know, was thrilled with with this contract. 0:59:45.480 --> 0:59:47.480 Was thrilled with this being passed, you know. And that's 0:59:47.520 --> 0:59:50.240 like number one sign that your mayor sucks is when 0:59:50.280 --> 0:59:55.600 like the cops are thrilled about something he did like this. 0:59:56.320 --> 0:59:58.960 Uh so so yeah, I mean it's it's a huge 0:59:58.960 --> 1:00:01.880 amount of money. There's a bunch of other stuff in it, 1:00:02.080 --> 1:00:07.000 like you know, salary grade changes and like stipends for 1:00:07.120 --> 1:00:10.720 stuff and bonuses and uh there's some changes to like 1:00:10.760 --> 1:00:14.600 the bodyborn camera policy too, which are kind of concerning. 1:00:16.240 --> 1:00:20.320 But but ultimately it's like, yeah, Brendon Johnson is now 1:00:20.320 --> 1:00:23.080 the funds the police mayor. Like I don't know how 1:00:23.120 --> 1:00:25.240 you can say that he's not when you when you 1:00:25.280 --> 1:00:29.160 look at this, like this is just handing the cops 1:00:29.200 --> 1:00:29.720 more money. 1:00:30.280 --> 1:00:35.520 Yeah, And Chicago cops are already just unbelievably dog shit overpaid. 1:00:35.680 --> 1:00:40.480 Chicago teachers are unbelievably underpaid. Yeah, so you know, I 1:00:40.480 --> 1:00:42.960 mean we are we are once again paying a bunch 1:00:42.960 --> 1:00:46.520 of people to rob us it's really it's it's good stuff. 1:00:47.200 --> 1:00:47.560 Yeah. 1:00:47.720 --> 1:00:50.560 And and they they get a lot of time off too. 1:00:50.600 --> 1:00:52.640 I mean, look, they have they have a ton of benefits. 1:00:52.640 --> 1:00:56.320 There's a ton of you know, privileges and things that 1:00:56.320 --> 1:01:00.280 that the cops get. But it's kind of kind of 1:01:00.320 --> 1:01:05.080 like he he could have given them slightly less money, 1:01:05.960 --> 1:01:11.040 Like it was almost this contract almost feels like the 1:01:11.080 --> 1:01:13.320 way I've seen some people describe it is it almost 1:01:13.320 --> 1:01:16.160 feels like an act of like goodwill towards the cops. 1:01:16.200 --> 1:01:18.920 Like it almost like I was like, I'm giving you 1:01:19.000 --> 1:01:21.720 this thing that you really want in the in the 1:01:21.720 --> 1:01:23.400 hopes of like I don't know, I don't know what 1:01:23.440 --> 1:01:24.720 he's trying to get out of it. I mean, I 1:01:24.720 --> 1:01:27.560 don't know what what the motivation is. But it's like 1:01:28.080 --> 1:01:31.360 you could have done you could have done less, and 1:01:31.400 --> 1:01:35.240 you're going for like a lot, So what's what's the 1:01:35.360 --> 1:01:39.960 deal there? And you know the new superintendent too, is 1:01:40.000 --> 1:01:44.320 like hugely concerning. He picked a guy who's uh like 1:01:44.400 --> 1:01:48.680 an expert in surveilling communities ahead of like the DNC 1:01:48.720 --> 1:01:54.080 coming next summer, the former head of the counter Terrorism Bureau. 1:01:54.160 --> 1:02:00.400 You know, like it's just it's a lot of really 1:02:01.600 --> 1:02:06.439 disappointing moves, and I think a lot of people were 1:02:06.480 --> 1:02:10.840 really hoping to see I guess a more abolitionist kind 1:02:10.880 --> 1:02:13.600 of streak. But the ultimately he's like he ran as 1:02:13.600 --> 1:02:17.400 a liberal, like we knew this was coming, but there 1:02:17.480 --> 1:02:19.840 was like almost like taking advantage I guess of like 1:02:19.960 --> 1:02:24.120 movement groups to sort of get get the power behind 1:02:24.160 --> 1:02:27.800 him during the campaign. But look, our alternative was also 1:02:27.960 --> 1:02:35.840 like an evil, like lying, maniacal Paul Vallas. So it's 1:02:36.000 --> 1:02:39.760 just like a shit sandwich. It's like bad choices all around, right. 1:02:40.080 --> 1:02:42.080 Yeah, and I mean not just is Chicago. I mean 1:02:42.200 --> 1:02:46.360 it's just Illinois. Electoral politics in general is a choice 1:02:46.400 --> 1:02:48.240 between the guy he gives the police more money and 1:02:48.280 --> 1:02:51.640 the other guy who gives the place more money. So yeah, 1:02:51.840 --> 1:02:57.400 it's not good exactly. Again, it really seems like we're 1:02:57.440 --> 1:03:00.800 going to get more shot spotter of the technology that 1:03:00.920 --> 1:03:02.960 is wrong over ninety percent of the time. 1:03:03.560 --> 1:03:07.120 So it's great, it's really well. 1:03:07.000 --> 1:03:11.240 It was a few months left. I mean hopefully, look, 1:03:11.280 --> 1:03:14.760 hopefully this is I don't know, there's arguments to be 1:03:14.840 --> 1:03:17.840 made for and against harm reduction, I guess, and whether 1:03:17.880 --> 1:03:22.120 it's like a worthwhile goal, but maybe there's still like 1:03:22.160 --> 1:03:24.960 a shot at like at least getting this part scratched out. 1:03:25.000 --> 1:03:27.160 I mean there is, like I said, like this big 1:03:27.240 --> 1:03:33.720 lawsuit and if nothing else, you know, perhaps he and 1:03:33.760 --> 1:03:37.040 his administration could be concerned about just like you know, 1:03:37.120 --> 1:03:41.480 the bad press around it if it's included and so 1:03:41.480 --> 1:03:46.120 many people are opposing it. But this is also an 1:03:46.160 --> 1:03:49.720 administration that like didn't care about the bad press that 1:03:49.800 --> 1:03:52.600 came with like saying, we're building a detention camp on 1:03:52.840 --> 1:03:54.280 polluted land. 1:03:54.880 --> 1:03:59.160 So yeah, well look look like this, this is this 1:03:59.240 --> 1:04:01.840 is the thing that that the fight over the police 1:04:01.880 --> 1:04:04.440 budget is distracting from, which is that we defined a 1:04:04.520 --> 1:04:07.560 second toxic waste dump to build the migrant concentration cap on. 1:04:08.160 --> 1:04:13.040 So you know, progressive, progressive values are getting happening either way. 1:04:14.280 --> 1:04:18.080 Look, I frequently said all mayors are bastards, which is 1:04:18.200 --> 1:04:25.360 true corny, but I think you just it's fine. Look, 1:04:25.480 --> 1:04:28.720 it's fine to vote, I guess if that is your sting, 1:04:28.920 --> 1:04:33.480 just don't convince yourself that once you leave the voting 1:04:33.520 --> 1:04:38.560 booths that like the struggle is over, because whatever happens, 1:04:38.600 --> 1:04:43.480 like this person, this authority figure in charge, is your enemy. 1:04:44.680 --> 1:04:45.800 Like it doesn't matter how. 1:04:45.760 --> 1:04:46.200 Nice he is. 1:04:46.240 --> 1:04:49.600 It doesn't matter how many jokes he cracks, like whatever, 1:04:49.880 --> 1:04:53.400 whatever you're trying to like resist or like liberate, Like 1:04:53.440 --> 1:04:56.120 this person is going to stand in your way just 1:04:56.160 --> 1:05:01.000 by virtue of being the mayor. Like it's into what 1:05:01.040 --> 1:05:04.600 that is. So I think it's just a matter of 1:05:04.600 --> 1:05:09.080 being like clear eyed about that rather than like convincing 1:05:09.120 --> 1:05:12.760 yourself that you can somehow like co run the city 1:05:12.920 --> 1:05:13.960 like with the government. 1:05:14.600 --> 1:05:16.640 Yeah, I mean I'm gonna, okay, I'm gonna take a 1:05:17.080 --> 1:05:19.320 shot at a city on the other side of the world. 1:05:19.840 --> 1:05:21.800 But fuck it, I'm still mad about this. 1:05:21.920 --> 1:05:22.280 Okay. 1:05:22.480 --> 1:05:27.440 So the the nominal best case scenario for this inside 1:05:27.440 --> 1:05:31.400 an electoral framework was when Barcelona and Camu, which is 1:05:31.520 --> 1:05:35.480 this sort of left wing platform in Barcelona made of 1:05:35.520 --> 1:05:38.680 a bunch of ex anarchists I like, managed to get 1:05:38.720 --> 1:05:43.120 managed to get a semisabled majority of the city council. 1:05:43.160 --> 1:05:45.040 Then the first time they got their mayor elected, the 1:05:45.080 --> 1:05:47.880 first thing that that fucking mayor did, like a weekend 1:05:47.880 --> 1:05:50.720 of office, was she knew where all the squats were 1:05:50.760 --> 1:05:53.640 in Barcelona, And the first thing she fucking did was 1:05:53.680 --> 1:05:56.800 she knew which immigrant squat didn't have enough community support 1:05:56.840 --> 1:05:59.200 behind them to stop them from getting evicted, and she 1:05:59.240 --> 1:06:01.800 had them evicted. So you know, this is what happens 1:06:01.800 --> 1:06:04.720 when you put activists in charge. They they do a 1:06:04.760 --> 1:06:08.920 more efficient job of uh being the kind of insurgency. 1:06:09.400 --> 1:06:12.320 So oh my god, yeah, this is this is this 1:06:12.360 --> 1:06:13.360 is what you're getting into. 1:06:13.920 --> 1:06:15.920 Oh my god. Well yeah, and I mean then it 1:06:15.960 --> 1:06:20.680 also becomes like its own smoke screen, you know, like 1:06:22.360 --> 1:06:25.600 just using the fact that like, oh, I was elected 1:06:25.640 --> 1:06:28.440 by activists, or like I was elected by movement people, 1:06:28.520 --> 1:06:32.720 so like you know, I'm on your side, and just 1:06:32.840 --> 1:06:35.560 using it as like a shield against like every move 1:06:35.600 --> 1:06:37.240 and being like, well, I know this looks bad, but 1:06:37.320 --> 1:06:39.720 like you guys know, like I'm I'm your guy, Like 1:06:39.760 --> 1:06:43.360 I'm one of you, like like just trust me, Like 1:06:43.920 --> 1:06:45.880 we're doing this for the for the right reasons. It 1:06:45.960 --> 1:06:49.160 might look bad, but because I'm your guy, you know, 1:06:49.520 --> 1:06:51.760 it's okay. I mean, it's the same thing with like 1:06:51.760 --> 1:06:55.160 like a uh Biden and the and the border wall. 1:06:55.240 --> 1:06:58.600 Now I think ironically our episode on that is going 1:06:58.640 --> 1:07:01.720 to be the episode that comes right before this, so 1:07:03.240 --> 1:07:05.320 oh wait, sorry, sorry, two episodes. Sorry, There'll be two 1:07:05.360 --> 1:07:08.240 episodes before. Yeah, oh, and the two episodes after well 1:07:08.400 --> 1:07:10.640 is also going to be borderwall shit, So yeah, border 1:07:10.720 --> 1:07:13.439 wall bad. Fuck Biden from border wall. 1:07:14.400 --> 1:07:17.480 But it's like it's Brighten's border wall. He's doing all 1:07:17.480 --> 1:07:21.600 this shit. And then you know it's just if it 1:07:21.680 --> 1:07:25.120 was Trump, we know what the response would be from 1:07:25.640 --> 1:07:27.400 supposed progressives. 1:07:28.000 --> 1:07:30.800 Yeah, don't don't let people like put a code of 1:07:30.840 --> 1:07:32.920 paint on a turd and hand it to you and 1:07:32.960 --> 1:07:35.680 be like, no, it's good. Actually we don't have to 1:07:35.720 --> 1:07:36.200 do this. 1:07:37.080 --> 1:07:42.360 Right, But I mean, also the border wall. Do you 1:07:42.400 --> 1:07:45.960 remember there was a brief flash of time in October 1:07:46.000 --> 1:07:49.600 when when Brandon Johnson and his team announced they were 1:07:49.600 --> 1:07:55.560 going to visit the border wall and then it only 1:07:55.640 --> 1:07:58.400 lasted like twenty four hours, seventy two hours. I don't 1:07:58.400 --> 1:08:00.720 know when, but at some point then they like very 1:08:00.800 --> 1:08:05.040 quickly reversed the decision when they realized like how bad 1:08:05.960 --> 1:08:10.280 that would look as we have like like at that time, 1:08:10.440 --> 1:08:15.600 there were thousands of people in police like thousands of 1:08:15.680 --> 1:08:19.120 migrants to it who had traveled here and staying on 1:08:19.160 --> 1:08:22.559 police station floors, and there was like they were gonna 1:08:22.560 --> 1:08:25.200 have this publicity stone want went to a while, and 1:08:25.240 --> 1:08:27.280 then they changed their minds about it, and we're like, oh, yeah, 1:08:27.280 --> 1:08:30.840 this is probably a bad idea. But it's become this 1:08:30.840 --> 1:08:33.639 this like Pilgrimage site. I mean, like I know, AOC 1:08:33.800 --> 1:08:36.360 went there. It's like liberal politicians like go there to 1:08:36.400 --> 1:08:38.880 be like, oh, this is so terrible and then they like, 1:08:39.960 --> 1:08:43.000 you know, just kind of let Biden make it worse. 1:08:43.680 --> 1:08:47.639 Yeah, so this this has been that, this has turned 1:08:47.640 --> 1:08:51.760 into the liberal groups elected on big promises, make your 1:08:51.800 --> 1:08:56.880 life worse episode. Well, this has been naked happen here. 1:08:57.560 --> 1:09:01.080 You could find us in the places where can people 1:09:01.120 --> 1:09:03.639 find you, just you. 1:09:03.520 --> 1:09:06.439 Know, on the Hell site which I know you're back 1:09:06.520 --> 1:09:13.080 on now unfortunately unfortunately. Yeah, you know, we have drinks 1:09:13.120 --> 1:09:16.840 Press dot org pro site and then yeah, Twitter, Instagram, 1:09:16.920 --> 1:09:17.639 all that stuff. 1:09:18.120 --> 1:09:20.680 Yeah, so go check out the Drinks Press people. They 1:09:20.720 --> 1:09:24.680 do they do great work. And yeah, cops, bad. 1:09:25.120 --> 1:09:28.240 Cops, bad cops, always bad cops, keep being bad. 1:09:44.040 --> 1:09:46.760 Hi everyone, it's James, and today I've got a two 1:09:46.800 --> 1:09:50.519 part episode for you. Initially, I'd planned to have my 1:09:50.600 --> 1:09:53.559 friends Emmitt and Dave talk to me about the shelters 1:09:53.560 --> 1:09:56.439 that we've all been building in Aucumber because the weather's 1:09:56.439 --> 1:10:00.640 getting worse and worse. But we're able to connect with Amos, 1:10:00.800 --> 1:10:03.000 who is one of the migrants who has spent time 1:10:03.040 --> 1:10:05.720 in outdoor detention sadly, and then in indoor detentions you'll 1:10:05.760 --> 1:10:09.720 hear and I really wanted to sort of refocus this 1:10:09.760 --> 1:10:12.760 episode on sharing Amos's story because I think, as I've 1:10:12.760 --> 1:10:14.519 said countless times right that if we don't spent the 1:10:14.600 --> 1:10:16.920 migrants in our reporting about migration, then we're doing it wrong. 1:10:17.520 --> 1:10:21.120 And so you will hear introductions from Dave, and you 1:10:21.120 --> 1:10:24.360 will hear introductions from Emmett, and you'll heard a little 1:10:24.360 --> 1:10:27.320 bit from them next episode about how we're bullying they, 1:10:27.720 --> 1:10:30.680 but we'll bring you that episode another time, because I 1:10:30.760 --> 1:10:36.000 wanted this episode to be mostly about Amos's migration journey. 1:10:36.320 --> 1:10:40.360 Hello everybody, it's me James. I am hosting it could 1:10:40.400 --> 1:10:43.959 happen here today again and I'm joined by my friends 1:10:44.000 --> 1:10:48.519 Amos and Emmett and potentially later our friend David. We're 1:10:48.520 --> 1:10:50.519 going to talk today again about the situation in hit 1:10:50.560 --> 1:10:53.280 the Komba. Amos is one of the people who we've 1:10:53.360 --> 1:10:55.559 detained in the outdoor detention sites, and it's going to 1:10:55.560 --> 1:10:58.880 explain some of his experience. And then Emmett is someone 1:10:58.960 --> 1:11:02.160 who has been working with a group of people, including myself, 1:11:02.680 --> 1:11:06.439 to build shelters for migrants to build slightly more permanent, 1:11:06.840 --> 1:11:10.920 slightly more improved shelters. Unfortunately, border patrol has taken upon 1:11:11.000 --> 1:11:15.640 themselves to instruct migrants to destroy those shelters, and so 1:11:15.640 --> 1:11:17.280 we're going to talk about how we build them, what 1:11:17.320 --> 1:11:20.799 we learn when we're building them, and unfortunately the fact 1:11:20.960 --> 1:11:24.639 that they have been destroyed. So I'm going to ask 1:11:24.640 --> 1:11:28.080 my three guests to introduce themselves. David is here now, 1:11:28.080 --> 1:11:32.960 so we'll start with you, Amos, and then and then David, 1:11:33.080 --> 1:11:35.160 just tell us who you are and anything you think 1:11:35.240 --> 1:11:36.400 is relevant about yourself. 1:11:36.439 --> 1:11:40.280 So I guess thank you for the invite. I appreciate 1:11:40.320 --> 1:11:44.320 the opportunity to add whatever I can to this very 1:11:44.400 --> 1:11:48.639 very important subject. I happen to be. I call myself 1:11:48.640 --> 1:11:52.880 an accidental and legal immigrant, if you want to put 1:11:52.880 --> 1:11:57.240 it that way. Due to some family circumstances, I found 1:11:57.280 --> 1:12:04.080 myself following a the new migratory road, I mean roads 1:12:04.680 --> 1:12:08.720 that has taken me through I lost count ten or 1:12:09.000 --> 1:12:14.680 twelve countries starting from North Africa all the way to 1:12:15.560 --> 1:12:21.280 the border with the United States. So that's me, and uh, 1:12:21.640 --> 1:12:24.519 you know, I mean, I would I would love nothing 1:12:24.520 --> 1:12:26.080 more but to add to this conversation. 1:12:26.400 --> 1:12:26.720 Thank you. 1:12:27.840 --> 1:12:28.799 I am. My name is Emitt. 1:12:29.400 --> 1:12:31.759 I am a volunteer with Borlands these collectives. 1:12:32.479 --> 1:12:34.479 And then David, would you like to finish up by 1:12:34.479 --> 1:12:36.200 introducing yourself him. 1:12:36.200 --> 1:12:37.160 My name is David. 1:12:37.400 --> 1:12:41.920 I'm a volunteer with Borderlands Relief Collective as well as 1:12:42.000 --> 1:12:47.599 Detention Resistance. I do water drops and I've also been 1:12:47.600 --> 1:12:52.800 helping out as a volunteer in the Border Patrol Open 1:12:52.840 --> 1:12:57.519 Air Detention site doing uh work as a medic and 1:12:58.640 --> 1:13:00.000 helping out building. 1:12:59.640 --> 1:13:03.240 These great Yeah, thank you, thank you so much everyone. 1:13:03.560 --> 1:13:07.080 So I think everyone will be interested in hearing Amos's story. 1:13:07.200 --> 1:13:10.000 So as far as you're comfortable sharing, Amos, and there's 1:13:10.000 --> 1:13:11.920 no need to share anything that you're not comfortable with 1:13:12.240 --> 1:13:16.920 or don't want to share. Can you tell us about 1:13:16.960 --> 1:13:20.320 your journey from North Africa to the United States. And 1:13:20.439 --> 1:13:23.799 I think we've been particularly interested in, like how people 1:13:24.160 --> 1:13:27.800 are finding out about these obviously these big gaps in 1:13:27.840 --> 1:13:30.000 the war that that are in Cucumber, and how people 1:13:30.000 --> 1:13:31.880 are ending up there from all over the world. 1:13:31.920 --> 1:13:37.080 Now right, well, buckle up. It's a long journey, James. 1:13:37.120 --> 1:13:37.880 It's a long one. 1:13:39.240 --> 1:13:42.559 So for me personally, it started with. 1:13:44.640 --> 1:13:50.559 A sort of an accidental separation from my family, my 1:13:50.640 --> 1:13:56.400 wife and kids for reasons proportionate reasons have to go 1:13:56.520 --> 1:13:59.360 to go back to the United States, and I was not. 1:13:59.520 --> 1:14:03.519 I was the the visa to join them. They went 1:14:03.640 --> 1:14:10.519 for initially two mourn the loss of a brother in law, 1:14:10.560 --> 1:14:14.960 I mean a brother in law, and unfortunately I wasn't 1:14:15.000 --> 1:14:19.759 able to get there by obtaining a visa to do so. 1:14:19.760 --> 1:14:23.240 So I spent six seven months arguing with the embassy. 1:14:23.960 --> 1:14:29.519 Was not given any legal reasoning for whye and my 1:14:29.640 --> 1:14:31.920 visa was denied. I've lived in the United States for 1:14:31.920 --> 1:14:36.840 the sixteen years. I've had a Clington record with one 1:14:38.479 --> 1:14:41.799 arrest and release and it was part of a protest 1:14:41.840 --> 1:14:45.639 that really that happened in Los Angeles and were released 1:14:45.720 --> 1:14:52.800 right away. And basically I left in twenty fifteen. I'd 1:14:52.840 --> 1:14:56.040 got to think the clean hands, no issues and then 1:14:56.320 --> 1:15:00.840 going back to Tunisia where I was with my new 1:15:00.880 --> 1:15:06.479 family anyhow. So so basically I was denied visa I 1:15:06.640 --> 1:15:09.479 really wanted to do. I've never done anything illegal in 1:15:09.520 --> 1:15:13.320 my life. I wanted to do the legal route, following 1:15:13.439 --> 1:15:16.639 what's what's been always told that you know, follow their 1:15:16.680 --> 1:15:20.120 legal route, don't don't come ilegally. So so that was 1:15:20.160 --> 1:15:22.519 not even a question in my mind. You know, you know, 1:15:23.040 --> 1:15:25.240 the wife is American, the kids are American. I mean, 1:15:25.280 --> 1:15:28.920 I just it shouldn't be an issue. But I really 1:15:28.960 --> 1:15:33.320 was confronted with I mean, I can safely say bye 1:15:33.360 --> 1:15:34.719 by now it's a bias. 1:15:34.920 --> 1:15:38.720 It's it's got to be some racism just by by 1:15:38.760 --> 1:15:41.919 by deduction really, because when you run out of reasoning, 1:15:43.120 --> 1:15:46.280 you have to really start making these sad and you 1:15:46.320 --> 1:15:47.800 know said conclusions. 1:15:48.400 --> 1:15:52.040 So yeah, so basically no, again, that was that took. 1:15:51.840 --> 1:15:56.639 Me on a long and painful depression and anxiety and 1:15:56.880 --> 1:16:00.160 a cocktail of mental health issues that I'm still actually 1:16:00.320 --> 1:16:03.720 dealing with right now. And it took my kids, my 1:16:03.800 --> 1:16:07.160 two kids, my beautiful kids, through therapy and they're still 1:16:07.160 --> 1:16:09.960 going through therapy. My wife is going through therapy. I'm 1:16:09.960 --> 1:16:12.800 going through therapy, and it took it blew apart in 1:16:12.800 --> 1:16:15.640 this family. We're still trying to figure out why so 1:16:15.840 --> 1:16:20.080 much you know nothing but could define it but hate. Really, 1:16:20.120 --> 1:16:24.000 there is no other way of putting it. So and again, 1:16:24.080 --> 1:16:28.679 I just the discussion was with my friends in America 1:16:28.840 --> 1:16:33.120 has been very difficult because they have no understanding or 1:16:33.200 --> 1:16:37.639 concept of what, you know, the diplomatic core is doing. 1:16:38.400 --> 1:16:41.320 And what is the these embassies are doing because there 1:16:41.360 --> 1:16:45.000 is no there is no access to them by Americans. 1:16:45.000 --> 1:16:48.759 It's just usually foreigners who do. And that really creates 1:16:48.800 --> 1:16:54.160 like this black hole of tax money going to these embassies. 1:16:55.040 --> 1:16:57.720 And then what they're doing is just just with a 1:16:57.720 --> 1:17:01.000 stroke of a pen, yes, yes or no, no explanation. 1:17:01.240 --> 1:17:04.559 You can't sue, you can't appeal, you can't do. It's 1:17:04.680 --> 1:17:08.800 absolute power. And then you know, I'm I'm mentioning this 1:17:08.960 --> 1:17:12.360 that the embassy is because through my journey, through this 1:17:12.520 --> 1:17:15.439 long and painful journey, I've met time and time again 1:17:15.680 --> 1:17:21.000 other fellow immigrants who again tried to go through the 1:17:21.120 --> 1:17:25.200 League route were denied with no reason, with no like 1:17:25.320 --> 1:17:29.320 no written reason, no no valid reason. So again you 1:17:29.360 --> 1:17:33.840 know this this discussion on and off again, and you 1:17:33.880 --> 1:17:38.439 know among American citizens as to why people are showing 1:17:38.520 --> 1:17:41.240 up in the border, well, I mean, at least in part, 1:17:41.680 --> 1:17:45.560 what I see is no accountability whatsoever to the embassies. 1:17:46.000 --> 1:17:48.920 Like time and time again, you have these embassies denying 1:17:49.000 --> 1:17:51.320 people who are trying to do it the right way, 1:17:51.439 --> 1:17:53.760 trying to do it. They either have family or work 1:17:53.840 --> 1:17:56.640 or whatever, and they're denied time and time again. And 1:17:56.680 --> 1:17:59.360 then you have, you know, and the hundreds of thousands 1:17:59.560 --> 1:18:02.120 going through process, and of course they try, they try, 1:18:02.160 --> 1:18:05.160 and then eventually they have no choice. So I'm not 1:18:05.200 --> 1:18:08.120 saying this is the only explanation, but it's a big 1:18:08.200 --> 1:18:12.519 part of it. I've spoken for people who are crossing 1:18:12.680 --> 1:18:15.599 and who are on the way from anywhere from Brazil 1:18:15.640 --> 1:18:22.920 to Colombia to Ecuador, to Panama, to Nicaragua, to Guatemala 1:18:22.960 --> 1:18:28.960 to Belize, in Mexico, all across. I've come across so 1:18:29.000 --> 1:18:31.640 many people and they, you know, at least I mean, 1:18:31.720 --> 1:18:34.000 my little humble mass I would say fifty to sixty 1:18:34.000 --> 1:18:38.600 percent have tried through embassies, but unfortunately you know that, 1:18:38.840 --> 1:18:42.320 you know, they just turned down. So this is an 1:18:42.320 --> 1:18:44.840 issue that is not talked about. This is an issue 1:18:44.960 --> 1:18:47.479 they really get away with Scott Free. I mean they 1:18:47.520 --> 1:18:50.480 really don't. There's zero can I mean, there are gods. 1:18:50.720 --> 1:18:54.599 I mean the ambassador have zero accountability now, I mean 1:18:54.680 --> 1:18:58.679 he he is absolutely he has all the power and 1:18:59.000 --> 1:19:02.479 no cannability. I mean, rarely you see ambassador being recalled 1:19:02.479 --> 1:19:06.240 by Congress. Rarely you see an ambassador being questioned, hey, 1:19:07.320 --> 1:19:12.120 why are these these are demands being the client, why 1:19:12.400 --> 1:19:14.320 what are you doing about it all that stuff, you know. 1:19:14.479 --> 1:19:17.280 So this is this is some of the stuff I 1:19:17.320 --> 1:19:19.559 want to add to the conversation because nobody has ever 1:19:19.600 --> 1:19:19.960 mentioned this. 1:19:20.080 --> 1:19:21.080 Nobody talks about this. 1:19:21.479 --> 1:19:25.720 Yeah, so, yeah, it's very important. I think your experiences 1:19:25.920 --> 1:19:27.800 is far from unique, as you've said, right, I have 1:19:27.960 --> 1:19:34.400 seen hundreds of people carrying visa rejection letters come across 1:19:34.400 --> 1:19:36.559 the southern border. They've shown them to me, right. They 1:19:36.560 --> 1:19:39.680 are people who have been victims of some of the 1:19:39.720 --> 1:19:42.120 worst things that can happen to human beings, and they've 1:19:42.160 --> 1:19:45.519 survived them. And we've still refused to give these people 1:19:45.560 --> 1:19:47.320 a safe place, so they've had to take their journey 1:19:47.360 --> 1:19:48.479 in a more dangerous way. 1:19:49.560 --> 1:19:52.439 I mean, I didn't see a single round person in 1:19:52.960 --> 1:19:53.439 the embassy. 1:19:53.479 --> 1:19:57.719 It's all right again, I'm I'm I hope you guys 1:19:57.720 --> 1:19:59.479 don't feel like I've been like two. 1:20:00.120 --> 1:20:02.000 I'm just being honest because I see. 1:20:01.760 --> 1:20:05.000 It, and I'm I'm up to date of what people 1:20:05.040 --> 1:20:07.680 are talking about and all the discussions, and I see it, 1:20:07.760 --> 1:20:10.760 like you know, almost have a level of a of 1:20:10.800 --> 1:20:16.040 a right wing supremacy style, like you know, I mean, 1:20:16.400 --> 1:20:18.120 it's just you feel it. 1:20:18.160 --> 1:20:18.680 You feel it. 1:20:18.680 --> 1:20:21.320 It's thetter you have to be a quote unquote brown 1:20:21.400 --> 1:20:24.160 person or a minority person to feel it. I don't 1:20:24.160 --> 1:20:27.720 expect others to understand it, but we feel it. And 1:20:27.760 --> 1:20:30.160 this is a discussion I've had in detention with a 1:20:30.160 --> 1:20:33.880 lot of the fellow detainees. There is that sense, there's 1:20:33.920 --> 1:20:36.240 a sense that you know, we're being looked down at, 1:20:36.600 --> 1:20:39.360 not on our merits, but on you know, a little 1:20:39.400 --> 1:20:42.519 bit of you know, assumptions because of where you're from. 1:20:42.840 --> 1:20:45.880 Assumptions like you go in and it's already baked. It's 1:20:45.880 --> 1:20:48.479 already baked. It's already And this is me. I've had 1:20:48.479 --> 1:20:51.519 a visa from the US for sixteen years. I mean, 1:20:51.520 --> 1:20:54.559 it should be a slam dunk. You know. So my 1:20:54.640 --> 1:20:57.280 two kids are American, my wife, my wife is American. 1:20:57.760 --> 1:21:01.040 We are and til today are all confused as to 1:21:01.120 --> 1:21:04.160 why the denials happened. I mean, I've called Congress members 1:21:04.160 --> 1:21:05.920 that David was with me today when I was at 1:21:05.920 --> 1:21:10.439 the Congress Membership Shift Adam Shift in Bourbon, California, and 1:21:10.760 --> 1:21:14.760 we you know, even they don't have an answer as 1:21:14.800 --> 1:21:15.960 to why the denial happened. 1:21:16.800 --> 1:21:21.120 And you know, I mean to close my personal issue, James. 1:21:21.560 --> 1:21:24.920 It's interesting because I was told that perhaps you were 1:21:25.840 --> 1:21:28.880 illegally in the United States between twenty thirteen twenty fifteen 1:21:29.760 --> 1:21:32.080 and then, but they can't say for sure that was 1:21:32.120 --> 1:21:36.400 the reason. But in detention when they when they didn't 1:21:37.120 --> 1:21:40.559 all the research on me, none of that existed, none 1:21:40.560 --> 1:21:42.920 of that. There's none of that. They released me because 1:21:42.920 --> 1:21:43.960 they have nothing against me. 1:21:44.120 --> 1:21:44.439 Nothing. 1:21:44.720 --> 1:21:47.360 And this is and this is the uscis, this is 1:21:47.400 --> 1:21:51.280 the Immigration Service, not the embassy coming up with some 1:21:51.439 --> 1:21:54.599 of these you know, bogus ideas. You know, so again 1:21:55.880 --> 1:21:59.519 it's a mess, and I feel like, you know this, this, 1:21:59.520 --> 1:22:02.559 this sees need to be looked into more because the 1:22:02.600 --> 1:22:05.760 border patrol ends up feeling the blunt of all this. 1:22:06.600 --> 1:22:09.400 But where does it start? Where is the source? 1:22:09.760 --> 1:22:11.519 I s always the question of where is the source? 1:22:11.640 --> 1:22:15.000 Where the source is? Yes, there's economic issues, there is, 1:22:15.400 --> 1:22:18.280 there is there is uh physical abuse, there's all kinds 1:22:18.280 --> 1:22:22.439 of stuff. But then also there's tax dollars being spent 1:22:22.560 --> 1:22:24.479 in the billions and the billions and hundreds of billions 1:22:24.520 --> 1:22:27.479 on these diplomatic course. I mean to be fair, my 1:22:27.600 --> 1:22:31.400 journey was not was not as difficult as many many, many, many, 1:22:31.439 --> 1:22:34.639 many stories that I've heard heart worming, I mean, really 1:22:34.640 --> 1:22:39.519 heartbreaking stories. My journey really, you know, I'm I'm somewhat 1:22:39.560 --> 1:22:41.800 to have a somewhat of a sophisticated life in the 1:22:41.840 --> 1:22:43.960 sense that you know, I spent a lot of time 1:22:44.720 --> 1:22:47.439 again we wasted. Most of the time that we wasted 1:22:47.600 --> 1:22:50.400 was waiting on the embassy because they kept on dragging 1:22:50.439 --> 1:22:53.400 and dragging their feet, six seven months waiting while my 1:22:53.479 --> 1:22:55.680 kids are crying on the phone, and you know, we 1:22:55.720 --> 1:22:58.040 don't have the income to to be able to able 1:22:58.080 --> 1:23:00.280 to have them come back to to to to Nisia 1:23:00.320 --> 1:23:05.559 where I was. So anyhow so, yeah, it started by researching, researching, 1:23:05.600 --> 1:23:09.879 reading a lot of articles, researching as far as North Africa. 1:23:10.040 --> 1:23:13.719 The route that is being used right now by mostly 1:23:13.720 --> 1:23:18.200 by a lot of Mauritanians and West Africans. This goes 1:23:18.240 --> 1:23:24.440 through Turkey and then from Turkey they're going to Nicaragua. 1:23:24.479 --> 1:23:29.799 Because Nicaragua Managua the capital of Nicaragua, they have allowed 1:23:29.800 --> 1:23:33.320 for visa and arrival, and then from and then from 1:23:33.600 --> 1:23:38.920 Managua there is literally almost like travel companies doing packaging 1:23:39.120 --> 1:23:43.439 packages for upwards to six seven thousand dollars from there 1:23:43.880 --> 1:23:48.160 to and then six seven thousand dollars from Nicarago. But 1:23:48.840 --> 1:23:51.040 before Nicaragua there's at least three four. 1:23:50.880 --> 1:23:53.000 Thousand dollars, so I'm told by. 1:23:54.640 --> 1:23:59.160 I think, yeah, the four Mauritanians that were detained, I'm 1:23:59.160 --> 1:24:01.840 told about tenth thosand dollars, which comes down to their 1:24:01.880 --> 1:24:05.639 local currency, about forty five thousand of their local currency, 1:24:05.640 --> 1:24:10.720 which is a lot, I mean a lot. So they so, 1:24:10.760 --> 1:24:13.000 like I said, so they managed to get the flights 1:24:13.000 --> 1:24:18.559 to Nicaragua. Managua has been on arrival for thirty days 1:24:18.560 --> 1:24:22.479 for North Africans, and then from there you got literally 1:24:23.320 --> 1:24:27.639 their journey through I don't know, coyotes, whatever you want 1:24:27.640 --> 1:24:33.800 to call them, facilitators whatever, well established with buses through 1:24:34.000 --> 1:24:38.800 El Salvador, through what Honduras, Honduras and Salvador, Guatemala, and 1:24:38.880 --> 1:24:41.840 then through Mexico. So that's the route that's been you know, 1:24:42.600 --> 1:24:47.120 upwards of six seven thousand Mauritanians and West Africans as 1:24:47.120 --> 1:24:49.920 far as the last articles that I've read, have taken 1:24:49.960 --> 1:24:52.920 their route. So I looked into it. I couldn't afford it, 1:24:52.960 --> 1:24:55.280 to be honest with you, this is just you know, 1:24:55.320 --> 1:24:59.679 I was sending money to my kids and wife because 1:24:59.680 --> 1:25:01.920 she I had to be on welfare. She just arrived 1:25:01.920 --> 1:25:04.200 there and she had to keep the kids at school 1:25:04.200 --> 1:25:06.519 and there's a lot of struggle, so I had to 1:25:06.600 --> 1:25:10.120 kind of try to help with that. On the same time, 1:25:10.600 --> 1:25:13.439 I was waiting on the embassy and we you know, 1:25:13.479 --> 1:25:16.360 and the WAF was calling them to see if can 1:25:16.360 --> 1:25:18.040 we expedite, can we do this, can we do this? 1:25:18.080 --> 1:25:21.040 But they were literally rude and and you know, treated 1:25:21.080 --> 1:25:23.160 her like a second class citizen. I don't know why. 1:25:23.439 --> 1:25:29.479 We still can't figure that out anyhow. So another route 1:25:30.280 --> 1:25:32.599 right now, which is a difficult route, is through Brazil 1:25:32.680 --> 1:25:37.160 because Brazil has a I don't know if you guys know, 1:25:39.600 --> 1:25:41.679 and I think they do that for Americans too. Yeah, 1:25:41.880 --> 1:25:45.280 so Brazil has sort of I don't know the word, 1:25:45.280 --> 1:25:47.479 but the equivalent to them is if you impose a 1:25:47.560 --> 1:25:51.720 visa on Brazil. Brazilians were imposed vision news. They do 1:25:51.800 --> 1:25:56.360 that to Americans too, So so you know where I'm from, 1:25:56.400 --> 1:26:01.040 they don't have a visa to as far as for Brazils, 1:26:01.040 --> 1:26:03.639 so we don't. So a lot of Africans can go 1:26:03.720 --> 1:26:08.000 to Brazil and from Brazil take the route all the way. 1:26:08.120 --> 1:26:13.400 So David mentioned the Amazon Strait where they crossed the 1:26:13.479 --> 1:26:17.080 jungle from Colombia to Panama and so on and so forth. 1:26:17.320 --> 1:26:21.400 That is I mean, I'm yes, the Darian, the famous 1:26:21.439 --> 1:26:27.519 Darian that is to me personally. Man, it gives me 1:26:27.600 --> 1:26:30.240 chills because the two or three guys that one of 1:26:30.280 --> 1:26:33.120 them did it on his own with Google Maps. Man, 1:26:33.160 --> 1:26:35.479 I don't know how the hell he did it. I 1:26:35.520 --> 1:26:38.519 have no clue how he did it. I am. I 1:26:38.600 --> 1:26:42.160 was listening and trying to understand them. Oh, it was 1:26:42.240 --> 1:26:46.840 just heartbreaking, you know, the suffering. So but yeah, through 1:26:46.880 --> 1:26:51.320 Brazil and then Colombia and and keep on going that way. 1:26:51.640 --> 1:26:53.720 That's another route for me. 1:26:55.640 --> 1:26:55.760 Uh. 1:26:56.760 --> 1:27:01.000 Again, I booked flights. I didn't all through that trouble, 1:27:01.680 --> 1:27:05.439 to be fair, but I've had some issues with vis 1:27:06.240 --> 1:27:08.679 is because North Africas don't get a lot of visa 1:27:08.800 --> 1:27:11.360 access around the Latin America. We don't have a lot 1:27:11.400 --> 1:27:14.040 of embassies there, we don't have a lot of trade, 1:27:14.040 --> 1:27:16.200 we don't have a lot of commerce between our countries. 1:27:16.479 --> 1:27:20.480 So it's kind of an unknown uh, an unknown commodity 1:27:20.560 --> 1:27:23.519 in the sense that you know, everything is is, you 1:27:23.560 --> 1:27:26.400 know is new. For me. I was able to get 1:27:26.400 --> 1:27:29.600 a visa to Colombia, and I'm very grateful for to 1:27:29.680 --> 1:27:33.960 choose Columbia because it's a it's affordable. It's been a 1:27:34.000 --> 1:27:37.080 good experience for myself to get out of UH me 1:27:37.120 --> 1:27:39.920 get closer and on the same time figure out the 1:27:40.000 --> 1:27:42.040 lay of the land and understand where I'm going. So 1:27:42.080 --> 1:27:45.479 those I'm grateful for that. And from there my goal 1:27:45.560 --> 1:27:48.320 was to get a visa to Mexico, and a lot 1:27:48.320 --> 1:27:51.240 of and most of my American friends get are still confused. 1:27:51.280 --> 1:27:53.960 That's why I would need a Mexican visa. That's a 1:27:53.960 --> 1:27:57.120 whole other discussion. And then the Mexican visa has become 1:27:57.520 --> 1:28:00.599 extremely difficult, almost as difficult as the American visa because 1:28:00.600 --> 1:28:03.200 of pressure from the United States to stop the flow. 1:28:03.680 --> 1:28:07.919 So UH again we end up making it very difficult 1:28:07.920 --> 1:28:11.920 for people who want to legitimately do this. So finding 1:28:11.920 --> 1:28:15.400 an appointment for a Mexican UH embassy, then you find 1:28:15.439 --> 1:28:19.479 out which embassy of Mexico has the available. Some of 1:28:19.520 --> 1:28:22.320 them don't have ever, some of them have them two 1:28:22.400 --> 1:28:24.920 years from now. Some of them have them, you know, 1:28:25.720 --> 1:28:28.880 UH for a particular visa but not the other. And 1:28:28.960 --> 1:28:31.360 you know, so for me, it was Colombia, and then 1:28:31.600 --> 1:28:36.080 UH I found an appointment in in for for Mexican 1:28:36.160 --> 1:28:40.000 visa and belize UH but unfortunately I ended up in 1:28:41.200 --> 1:28:46.640 you know, going from Colombia to Panama to UH, Nicaragua 1:28:46.840 --> 1:28:51.400 to Guatemala, and then Belize because Belize has not a 1:28:51.479 --> 1:28:57.600 lot of UH flights UH from Latin America. And then 1:28:57.640 --> 1:29:02.519 when I got to Guatemala, all the previous countries allowed 1:29:02.520 --> 1:29:05.439 me to transit without a problem, but Guatemala decided to 1:29:05.439 --> 1:29:11.519 put me in a detention for almost forty hours and 1:29:11.560 --> 1:29:15.320 then wanted to return me back to original country because 1:29:15.400 --> 1:29:20.519 they yeah, So I'm like, I'm my plane departs a 1:29:20.520 --> 1:29:22.880 few hours of going to Belize. Why are you doing 1:29:22.920 --> 1:29:25.680 this please? I'm not on need the visit to Guatemala. 1:29:25.760 --> 1:29:29.479 I'm not going to Guatemala. Nothing, no discussion. They threw 1:29:29.560 --> 1:29:32.200 me in there, cockroaches, you name it, the whole Enchilada. 1:29:32.320 --> 1:29:35.040 I mean, no food, no water, no nothing. I mean, 1:29:35.080 --> 1:29:38.599 you know, it's just sad, very sad, very sad, very sad. 1:29:38.640 --> 1:29:40.920 That was a really very sad And then so I 1:29:40.960 --> 1:29:45.280 was sent back to Panama, then from Panama to Colombia, 1:29:45.320 --> 1:29:47.519 and then Colombia that was going to send me back 1:29:47.560 --> 1:29:49.840 to North Africa. So it was going to be a 1:29:49.840 --> 1:29:53.000 really mess. So I had to use some of my 1:29:53.040 --> 1:29:57.000 customer service skills that have run through the years to 1:29:57.360 --> 1:30:01.519 wiggle myself where I this minute was able to help 1:30:01.600 --> 1:30:06.040 some friends buy a ticket to like, you know, in 1:30:06.080 --> 1:30:07.880 the midnight hour. Really they were going to send me. 1:30:07.960 --> 1:30:11.040 So I bought a ticket to Ecuador, where I had 1:30:11.040 --> 1:30:14.160 a visa for ninety days. So I was able to 1:30:14.200 --> 1:30:16.920 get out of that mess, stay in Guador for a 1:30:16.960 --> 1:30:19.840 couple of weeks, and then try to get to Belize again. 1:30:20.400 --> 1:30:22.800 And the next time I was successful in going to 1:30:22.800 --> 1:30:27.639 Belize through Panama and then Nicaragua, then straight to Belize, 1:30:28.280 --> 1:30:31.160 avoiding Guatemala, and then Believe. I was there for a 1:30:31.160 --> 1:30:34.559 couple of weeks, and then I was able to get 1:30:34.600 --> 1:30:39.600 a visa to Mexico, thank God. And there was a 1:30:39.640 --> 1:30:41.640 lot of Russians, there was a lot of Turks, there 1:30:41.680 --> 1:30:44.000 was a lot of no no, no Turks, no Russians, 1:30:44.040 --> 1:30:45.920 and a lot of East Europeans trying to get a 1:30:46.000 --> 1:30:49.680 visa there too for Mexico. And basically from there it 1:30:49.800 --> 1:30:52.760 was the journey of taking a bus from Belize to Cancun, 1:30:53.360 --> 1:30:58.240 can Coon to Monterey Monterrey to Cabo. I found a job, 1:30:58.400 --> 1:31:04.040 a volunteering job in Fortois, Condido. I'm a yoga practitioner, 1:31:04.160 --> 1:31:08.200 and I found a yoga to treat there to try 1:31:08.240 --> 1:31:11.120 to help me with my mental health and all that stuff. 1:31:11.200 --> 1:31:15.120 So yeah, so and they're doing a great job. 1:31:15.160 --> 1:31:17.120 It's in the middle of the wilderness. They're really present, 1:31:17.439 --> 1:31:21.200 you know, working on natural preservation and in beautiful job 1:31:21.240 --> 1:31:25.240 they're doing there. And then from there Gambos and Lucas. 1:31:25.600 --> 1:31:28.639 Gambos and Lucas. I volunteered at a hotel to kind 1:31:28.680 --> 1:31:32.240 of be able to eat and sleep, and then from 1:31:32.240 --> 1:31:39.280 there Tijuana and Tijuana. I met someone earlier in can Kun, 1:31:39.600 --> 1:31:44.000 a Colombian who was all the time I was in Mexico, 1:31:44.040 --> 1:31:47.679 I was trying to do the app, the CVB one app. 1:31:48.120 --> 1:31:50.040 Yeah, and how was your experience with that? 1:31:50.120 --> 1:31:55.439 Because absolutely absolutely horrible, absolutely horrible, absolutely horrible. I mean 1:31:55.479 --> 1:31:59.160 it's just basically useless. It's useless. And I met people 1:31:59.200 --> 1:32:01.720 who've been there for two months on the app and 1:32:01.760 --> 1:32:02.400 it didn't work. 1:32:03.080 --> 1:32:05.120 Explain to me what didn't work about it? Like, did 1:32:05.120 --> 1:32:06.439 it LOK you out? Did it? 1:32:06.600 --> 1:32:08.680 I wish I can send you screen I have screenshots 1:32:08.720 --> 1:32:11.240 that can send you to you can understand what so 1:32:11.240 --> 1:32:14.440 so it tells you, that tells you, that tells you 1:32:14.360 --> 1:32:17.519 you're so you sign up, you put your information, you 1:32:17.600 --> 1:32:20.559 passport and all that stuff. And then basically what you're 1:32:20.600 --> 1:32:23.920 doing is you're you're in the queue, and it's there's 1:32:24.000 --> 1:32:27.040 like a lottery system where they see how long you've 1:32:27.080 --> 1:32:29.320 been waiting, how old are you, where are you from. 1:32:29.640 --> 1:32:33.920 There's like a lottery system that randomly selects people. So 1:32:34.720 --> 1:32:37.160 but again, you know, out of a close to one 1:32:37.200 --> 1:32:41.040 hundred people in my detention cell, you know room, everybody's saying, 1:32:41.040 --> 1:32:44.920 we all tried, and none of them, you know, got 1:32:45.120 --> 1:32:47.680 an appointment. I mean everybody wants an appointment. I mean, 1:32:47.960 --> 1:32:50.400 who's in the reds, who's in the right in his 1:32:50.520 --> 1:32:53.360 right mind would choose to forego an appointment and go 1:32:53.439 --> 1:32:57.240 do throughout that trouble. So and if we can do 1:32:57.280 --> 1:33:00.040 a little bit of math, eventually, at some point I 1:33:00.040 --> 1:33:02.960 spoke to the supervisor of the Border Patrol detention center 1:33:04.160 --> 1:33:06.680 and he told me there's eighteen hundred people at any 1:33:06.720 --> 1:33:09.799 given point in that place. So out of eighteen hundred people, 1:33:09.840 --> 1:33:11.880 and if my cell there was about six cells or 1:33:11.920 --> 1:33:14.240 something or more than that much more, much more the 1:33:14.640 --> 1:33:17.640 six seals and then four blocks, I think, sonya, So 1:33:19.240 --> 1:33:23.519 uh yeah, I mean if about out of one hundred, 1:33:23.600 --> 1:33:27.240 then you have nobody was able to use the app. 1:33:27.200 --> 1:33:30.040 Then what's what's to tell tell out of the eighteen. 1:33:29.840 --> 1:33:32.639 Hundred maybe nine nine percent, I mean all of them really, 1:33:32.720 --> 1:33:36.040 because if they did have appointment, Yeah, if they had appointments, 1:33:36.040 --> 1:33:38.519 there would have been not in there, right, I mean 1:33:38.600 --> 1:33:39.400 that's that's the key. 1:33:39.520 --> 1:33:40.400 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 1:33:40.840 --> 1:33:45.760 So, I mean it's just a flawed system. I was 1:33:45.800 --> 1:33:48.639 telling my wife yesterday, that's like ellipstick on a pig, 1:33:48.680 --> 1:33:50.080 because you know, you're just trying to make it look 1:33:50.120 --> 1:33:53.800 because you're doing something, but it's really it's really like 1:33:54.240 --> 1:33:59.400 there's nothing being done about it. And anyhow, so I'm 1:33:59.439 --> 1:34:02.919 still dazed, unconfused. I mean, I'm trying to understand the situation. 1:34:04.520 --> 1:34:08.200 So I literally I was the last one to get in, 1:34:09.040 --> 1:34:13.080 and literally I'm sitting there and I'm standing there at 1:34:13.080 --> 1:34:16.160 the border itself, at the wall, and I'm like, what's 1:34:16.200 --> 1:34:17.920 going on? Where is the border patrol? Where is the 1:34:17.920 --> 1:34:20.280 port of entry? Where is this? I'm not confused. 1:34:20.680 --> 1:34:23.880 After finding himself unable to make an appointment through CBP one, 1:34:24.680 --> 1:34:26.519 he must have decided to make his way to Accumber 1:34:26.880 --> 1:34:29.280 like thousands of other migrants. And I think it's worth 1:34:29.320 --> 1:34:32.720 pointing out here that nothing that he has done up 1:34:32.800 --> 1:34:37.200 to this point is breaking any laws. Right, It's not 1:34:37.280 --> 1:34:39.720 illegal to drive around in Mexico. It's not illegal to 1:34:39.760 --> 1:34:42.960 approach the border from the south. All of this stuff 1:34:43.040 --> 1:34:45.759 is the legal way to move around. No, no crimes 1:34:45.800 --> 1:34:49.280 have been committed. And it is course legal to cross 1:34:49.280 --> 1:34:51.920 the border and present yourself for assylum immediately upon doing so, 1:34:52.080 --> 1:34:55.479 even to cross between ports of entry. It's the discretion 1:34:55.960 --> 1:34:59.599 of the administration or the prosecutors to charge for that crossing. 1:35:00.280 --> 1:35:02.920 But that is a legal means to claim asylum. And 1:35:02.960 --> 1:35:05.439 so we'll let they must pick up again here as 1:35:05.479 --> 1:35:07.840 he takes his first step into United States. 1:35:08.560 --> 1:35:11.680 The first thing I say is, I'm pretty sure that 1:35:11.880 --> 1:35:14.800 there's some Fox News stuff because they were there were 1:35:14.920 --> 1:35:20.439 so aggressive camera and a brand new jeep and they 1:35:20.439 --> 1:35:23.960 were like, hey cool Google shoot shoot, and then you know, 1:35:24.320 --> 1:35:26.519 ladies and dudes and everybody was running and they were 1:35:26.560 --> 1:35:28.880 running after them to shoot them with the I mean 1:35:28.880 --> 1:35:30.559 with the camera. I mean, I mean, that's what I mean. 1:35:31.000 --> 1:35:35.160 And you can tell there is malicious intent behind what 1:35:35.200 --> 1:35:39.200 they're doing. It was not like trying to be sort 1:35:39.200 --> 1:35:42.599 of neutral or anything. They were just you know, anyhow, 1:35:42.680 --> 1:35:46.280 So I'm looking for a border patrol. I'm trying to say, hey, 1:35:46.280 --> 1:35:48.040 I'm finding for asylum. Where are you? 1:35:48.120 --> 1:35:48.720 What's going on? 1:35:49.280 --> 1:35:52.519 Nothing, there's nobody. So I'm just walking around with the 1:35:52.680 --> 1:35:56.559 with the around the world. I call my wife, I 1:35:56.640 --> 1:36:00.680 call some friends. Thank god it's to that signal. And 1:36:00.720 --> 1:36:05.439 then uh, yeah, I mean, you know, the first book 1:36:05.439 --> 1:36:08.960 Border patrolman that I saw, he was pissed off. He said, 1:36:09.040 --> 1:36:11.439 a few, a few, a few, this, move out of 1:36:11.439 --> 1:36:15.920 my way. Fine cool. Uh. I told him whatever I said. 1:36:16.000 --> 1:36:18.479 If I didn't like, I said, I'm sorry. And then 1:36:18.479 --> 1:36:21.120 I moved on and nobody's interested in even to talk. 1:36:21.840 --> 1:36:26.040 So and then I moved closer, closer to the crowd, 1:36:26.880 --> 1:36:29.639 and uh, I don't know if that's when I saw David, 1:36:29.760 --> 1:36:34.400 but it was almost almost almost yeah, And even when 1:36:34.400 --> 1:36:37.320 I saw David initially, but then I kept going to 1:36:36.880 --> 1:36:40.120 do to have an idea of the whole camp, camp 1:36:40.600 --> 1:36:43.880 and the whole like understand what the dynamics. I saw 1:36:43.880 --> 1:36:47.080 some National guardsmen, I saw some DHS police, and I 1:36:47.120 --> 1:36:50.559 saw some Border patrolmen. It's like a whole mix of people. 1:36:51.040 --> 1:36:54.920 And I think I think there was uh Park rangers. 1:36:55.280 --> 1:36:58.960 If I'm not, I'm not second Yeah, yeah, so ber 1:36:59.040 --> 1:37:02.599 lam Rangers. Yeah. So so it's a huge mix of people. 1:37:05.560 --> 1:37:09.559 And right away my my survivor instincts kind of you know, 1:37:09.640 --> 1:37:12.240 I I saw David and I saw tools, and my 1:37:12.320 --> 1:37:15.240 eyes opened up because you know, I worked and I 1:37:15.280 --> 1:37:18.320 built my farm from scratch in North Africa, and I 1:37:18.360 --> 1:37:22.559 have my tools are everything to me. So anyhow so, 1:37:22.680 --> 1:37:25.240 I'm glad I did see that that that familiar site, 1:37:25.280 --> 1:37:28.200 and I appreciate that. But you but you, David and Caissar, 1:37:28.320 --> 1:37:33.000 you guys were terrific. And yeah, I mean nobody spoke English. 1:37:33.280 --> 1:37:38.880 Nobody spoke English, nobody, and everybody's being treated like. 1:37:39.840 --> 1:37:42.559 I mean, I told one border performent, I have house, 1:37:42.640 --> 1:37:43.400 I have sheep. 1:37:43.720 --> 1:37:45.800 I treat them better the way you treat these guys. 1:37:45.840 --> 1:37:49.360 I really do. I truly do. And they were didn't 1:37:49.439 --> 1:37:53.880 like that kind of talk. But anyhow so, yeah, I 1:37:53.920 --> 1:37:58.240 mean I got really cold, I mean very quickly, and 1:37:58.520 --> 1:38:02.960 right away David and Scissor, thank god, had had some 1:38:03.000 --> 1:38:04.960 tools and we started, you know, working on getting some 1:38:05.000 --> 1:38:08.120 tents up and running. And uh, I mean they did 1:38:08.200 --> 1:38:10.400 most of the work really, I was just there helping, 1:38:10.920 --> 1:38:16.360 so uh and it was it was it was, dude, 1:38:16.400 --> 1:38:19.160 My heart was really pain giving me a lot of 1:38:19.200 --> 1:38:21.760 pain because in my mind I had my my my 1:38:21.840 --> 1:38:24.080 boy and my girl on my mind and I'm just 1:38:24.080 --> 1:38:25.240 trying to get to to them. 1:38:25.600 --> 1:38:29.799 But I seen these kids. Man, that was that was horrific. 1:38:29.880 --> 1:38:31.720 Man. That was not right. That was not right in 1:38:31.760 --> 1:38:36.880 that cold, it was just not right. And uh, I'm 1:38:36.880 --> 1:38:39.000 telling you still in my mind right now. 1:38:39.040 --> 1:38:39.920 I mean, I'm not gonna let you. 1:38:39.960 --> 1:38:42.240 It's it's it's just it's embedded, you know. 1:38:42.680 --> 1:38:44.840 Yeah, it affects all of us. Like I would say, 1:38:44.960 --> 1:38:46.760 last night, I was a little baby there and I 1:38:47.040 --> 1:38:48.880 couldn't sleep coming home, you know, like I. 1:38:49.240 --> 1:38:52.479 Mean, you know, jeez, dude, like you know, the thing 1:38:52.560 --> 1:38:56.240 is this? You know? Okay, Again, I told David, uh, 1:38:57.000 --> 1:38:58.920 it's not a question of left or right. The question 1:38:59.080 --> 1:39:01.920 is so I get it. I spoke to Bush, a 1:39:02.000 --> 1:39:05.040 border patrol, and again I couldn't sleep at night. I 1:39:05.240 --> 1:39:09.440 basically kept on going. After David and Caesar left, I 1:39:09.439 --> 1:39:11.840 tried to sleep. I couldn't sleep. I called my kids. 1:39:12.320 --> 1:39:14.639 They sleep at eight forty eight thirty, so I spoke 1:39:14.680 --> 1:39:17.439 to them and then they were asleep. And then I 1:39:17.479 --> 1:39:19.240 got up and I. 1:39:18.960 --> 1:39:21.960 Kept walking around. Some people had a lot of woods. 1:39:22.000 --> 1:39:24.479 Some people didn't have enough wood, so and some people 1:39:24.479 --> 1:39:26.040 didn't want me to take some of their wood. I 1:39:26.080 --> 1:39:28.120 had to go pick up some wood and try to look, 1:39:29.280 --> 1:39:31.479 you know, make sure everybody's fire is up and running. 1:39:32.760 --> 1:39:36.880 And then, you know, when everybody had the fire and 1:39:36.920 --> 1:39:40.840 everybody kind of somewhat settled in, I figured, hey, let 1:39:40.880 --> 1:39:43.280 me if I'm up, let me talk to the border patrol. 1:39:44.200 --> 1:39:45.880 I spoke to the first one. He was kind of, 1:39:45.960 --> 1:39:49.280 you know, didn't want to talk, but still said a 1:39:49.320 --> 1:39:52.879 few things. But then another one originally from San Diego. 1:39:53.040 --> 1:39:56.400 Cool guy, really cool guy. He gave me the picture. 1:39:56.439 --> 1:39:58.880 I mean, look, listen, I mean, you know, we're here 1:39:58.920 --> 1:40:01.320 to work and the stress is a lot where we 1:40:01.640 --> 1:40:04.880 try and do the best we can. It's not our fault, 1:40:04.920 --> 1:40:06.200 and it's not you know what I mean, you know, 1:40:06.680 --> 1:40:08.280 you know, And he told me, listen, you can go 1:40:08.320 --> 1:40:10.280 back to Tijuana, or you can go in the United 1:40:10.320 --> 1:40:12.320 States or do whatever you want. But if I pick 1:40:12.360 --> 1:40:15.040 you up outside of this area, you go straight to deportation, 1:40:15.120 --> 1:40:17.720 that's the bottom line. But if you stay here, you 1:40:17.880 --> 1:40:20.640 get to be picked up and processed and you'll have 1:40:20.680 --> 1:40:26.440 a chance to fight for your asylum. So again, excellent information. 1:40:26.720 --> 1:40:29.759 With the exception of even they don't know the process 1:40:29.800 --> 1:40:33.080 because you don't get to fight for asylum and detention 1:40:33.560 --> 1:40:37.840 and detention they release you on your recognizance and then 1:40:38.360 --> 1:40:39.920 later on you fight for asylum. 1:40:40.040 --> 1:40:41.600 Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, so. 1:40:42.439 --> 1:40:46.439 And that's a misconception because everybody is saying. Everybody that 1:40:46.479 --> 1:40:48.320 I spoke to initially said yeah, you can fight for 1:40:48.360 --> 1:40:50.960 an asylum right in here, but it's not true. So 1:40:52.280 --> 1:40:54.840 but anyhow, so and then I spoke to a couple 1:40:54.880 --> 1:40:56.920 of National guardsmen, a couple of kids that in the 1:40:56.960 --> 1:41:01.680 early twenties from New York, from New York, and uh, 1:41:01.880 --> 1:41:04.040 I mean, you know, just just a couple of kids. 1:41:04.040 --> 1:41:07.040 We started talking about hunting, We started talking about you know, 1:41:07.280 --> 1:41:10.880 fishing and stuff like that, and they were, you know, 1:41:10.960 --> 1:41:12.960 what do you expect. You know, they're doing their job 1:41:14.040 --> 1:41:17.760 and they're human beings doing what humans beings do. So 1:41:18.640 --> 1:41:21.760 I mean, I can absolutely sympathize and understand, you know, 1:41:21.920 --> 1:41:25.360 these guys' jobs. My only beef is like, do you 1:41:25.439 --> 1:41:27.639 have to be the I mean, yes, you're pissed. Yes, 1:41:27.680 --> 1:41:30.280 it's a lot of work. Yes it's frustrating, Yes it 1:41:30.320 --> 1:41:32.479 feels like your country is invaded. Blah bah blah, we 1:41:32.520 --> 1:41:36.519 get all that, but is you being mean, rude or 1:41:36.800 --> 1:41:40.120 downright evil? Is that going to change anything? It's not. 1:41:40.920 --> 1:41:44.720 These guys went through flicking the Amazon. I mean, at 1:41:44.720 --> 1:41:46.320 some point I swum with a crocodile. 1:41:46.360 --> 1:41:48.439 I didn't even know the crocodiles around. I'm just saying, 1:41:48.920 --> 1:41:55.120 it's so weird that they're educated and they're informed, yet 1:41:55.200 --> 1:41:58.680 they still have that attitude. It's just like, you know 1:41:58.680 --> 1:41:59.639 what I mean, it doesn't it. 1:41:59.560 --> 1:42:02.960 Doesn't, Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't help. And like like 1:42:03.120 --> 1:42:05.240 it doesn't matter what you think about policy, Like if 1:42:05.240 --> 1:42:08.160 there's a baby crying because it has no. 1:42:08.120 --> 1:42:11.519 They get cold. They became cold hearted, and it sucks 1:42:11.520 --> 1:42:13.719 because again I spoke to this guy from San Diego, 1:42:13.760 --> 1:42:17.360 which I really appreciate his you know sort of you know, 1:42:17.400 --> 1:42:20.599 he's he was very forward with me, and I appreciate 1:42:20.640 --> 1:42:22.960 that because it probably doesn't get to talk to anybody 1:42:23.000 --> 1:42:27.840 because nobody speaks English. So and then the idea is, 1:42:27.880 --> 1:42:32.240 you know, they're frustrated. They're with the system. They're frustrated 1:42:32.280 --> 1:42:35.160 with the with the capacity, with with the with the 1:42:35.240 --> 1:42:38.920 with the positions they're put in. Okay, I absolutely sympathize. 1:42:39.160 --> 1:42:41.400 You cannot go wrong with that. I mean, I mean 1:42:41.439 --> 1:42:43.800 it's you have every right to to to to to 1:42:43.880 --> 1:42:47.559 be that way. Again, my beef is, why do you 1:42:47.880 --> 1:42:52.599 like good morning? A few, good afternoon, a few, good night, 1:42:52.680 --> 1:42:56.200 a few like like what it becomes so sad. It's 1:42:56.240 --> 1:43:00.320 just like, you know, loses it's importance. Even the war 1:43:00.479 --> 1:43:03.479 is no longer important, you know what I mean. So yeah, 1:43:03.520 --> 1:43:04.960 it's just too much, so much. 1:43:05.520 --> 1:43:09.519 It's very dehumanizings and it gets human. 1:43:10.160 --> 1:43:15.120 Absolutely absolutely, And I mean eventually I got inspired by 1:43:15.160 --> 1:43:17.120 David and Caesar, and I think they did a freaking 1:43:17.160 --> 1:43:19.719 amazing job. I mean, I just it was a shock 1:43:19.760 --> 1:43:23.679 in my system to see the contrast between I think 1:43:23.720 --> 1:43:30.200 it's the biggest necessary contrast in that specific place. You 1:43:30.320 --> 1:43:34.639 need to see the two sides of the American spirit. 1:43:35.200 --> 1:43:38.280 Right there. You have volunteers saying a few to the system, 1:43:38.560 --> 1:43:41.160 and you have borders men saying a few to the system, 1:43:41.200 --> 1:43:42.559 you know what I mean, Like you know, it's it's 1:43:42.600 --> 1:43:47.000 just a huge contrast, and that's what really gives hope 1:43:47.040 --> 1:43:51.160 for anything going forward. So I appreciate it. I don't 1:43:51.160 --> 1:43:54.439 think David and Caesar really understand how important what they're doing. 1:43:54.520 --> 1:43:58.960 It's extremely important it's very valuable. So to me personally, 1:43:59.000 --> 1:44:03.400 it's just the shaka, all the initial shock. I just 1:44:03.439 --> 1:44:05.640 went away really quickly because I saw tools and I 1:44:05.680 --> 1:44:07.720 saw David, and I knew what's going on because I 1:44:07.800 --> 1:44:13.720 volunteered in shelters in LA. In Los Angeles, I volunteered 1:44:13.960 --> 1:44:17.760 at the mission down at uh you know, downtown LA. 1:44:17.920 --> 1:44:20.599 You know on schied Row. If you hear of skid Row, 1:44:20.680 --> 1:44:23.080 I've volunteered there. And I mean, I know very well 1:44:23.120 --> 1:44:27.320 what homelessness looks like. So I've done Christmas service, I've 1:44:27.320 --> 1:44:31.439 done food service. Automatically, when I saw David, I just 1:44:31.479 --> 1:44:33.840 completely kicked in and I it was a natural thing 1:44:33.880 --> 1:44:36.920 for me to jump aboard and help. Uh. And then 1:44:38.760 --> 1:44:41.240 again I couldn't sleep. Early in the morning, like four 1:44:41.320 --> 1:44:44.120 or five, I started seeing some border patrolment coming in 1:44:44.560 --> 1:44:47.400 and right away the huffing and pufflin starts. You know 1:44:47.400 --> 1:44:49.759 what I mean, the traveling and all that business. Okay, 1:44:50.720 --> 1:44:55.120 and Uh initially I mean, I again I hate to 1:44:55.200 --> 1:44:58.200 use the word I, but I helped organize the crowd 1:44:58.240 --> 1:45:02.200 a little bit because the were fighting because they were 1:45:02.600 --> 1:45:08.000 the PP was VP was picking up UH people that 1:45:08.000 --> 1:45:11.400 have been there that they're just arrived, they're leaving the 1:45:11.520 --> 1:45:13.000 people that were there longer. 1:45:13.680 --> 1:45:13.880 You know. 1:45:14.000 --> 1:45:16.920 For the ones that were that I stayed with, were 1:45:16.960 --> 1:45:20.679 there for four days, they didn't get picked up, and 1:45:21.880 --> 1:45:25.800 so that's a logistical issue, and people were just not 1:45:25.800 --> 1:45:28.880 being organized. So we did the line demarcation line. Those 1:45:28.920 --> 1:45:30.720 who were here for three days, they need to be 1:45:30.760 --> 1:45:34.920 here two days. One day. We did that, and then 1:45:35.880 --> 1:45:37.840 the first border patrolment that showed up on a g 1:45:38.560 --> 1:45:42.200 sorry yelling at me, you're doing our job. Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry, 1:45:42.240 --> 1:45:45.519 I backed up. I backed up. I minded my business. 1:45:45.720 --> 1:45:49.719 And then another border patrolment tells me, hey, listen, listen, listen, 1:45:49.880 --> 1:45:51.599 I needed to do forty seven on the side. 1:45:51.640 --> 1:45:52.719 Forty seven on the side. 1:45:53.000 --> 1:45:57.559 I need to Yeah. I'm like, what's going on here? Okay, 1:45:58.040 --> 1:46:00.599 I mean again, I dropped my ego. I don't care 1:46:00.720 --> 1:46:03.599 as long as these guys get a chance to get through, 1:46:03.880 --> 1:46:06.679 because there was a lot of frustration where they're picking 1:46:06.720 --> 1:46:09.880 up people random and they're picking up leaving people that 1:46:09.960 --> 1:46:12.560 are been there for a long time. You had families 1:46:12.560 --> 1:46:15.839 that did not want to be separated, you had families 1:46:15.840 --> 1:46:18.000 that have been there longer, and you had you know, 1:46:18.120 --> 1:46:21.519 so it's just a huge miss missmash of situations and 1:46:21.600 --> 1:46:27.200 you know so, uh yeah, I mean eventually, on on 1:46:26.120 --> 1:46:29.280 on on the next day, early in the morning, we 1:46:29.360 --> 1:46:32.040 did some organizing and it seemed to me that we 1:46:32.040 --> 1:46:35.599 were much more fluid and and and the border patrolman 1:46:35.720 --> 1:46:37.920 filled up the bus and it happened to be one 1:46:37.960 --> 1:46:42.120 of them, one of the people that were picked up. Yeah, anyhow, so. 1:46:43.680 --> 1:46:45.439 But what a story? What did journey? 1:46:46.120 --> 1:46:46.320 Right? 1:46:46.400 --> 1:46:48.559 It's insane. I'm still processing, man. 1:46:48.800 --> 1:46:49.320 Of course. 1:46:49.439 --> 1:46:53.240 I mean that's a traumatic experience. And yeah, it's just 1:46:53.240 --> 1:46:56.800 I guess one story. And like you said, there are thousands. 1:46:56.360 --> 1:46:59.719 Of them, thousands, thousands, all. 1:46:59.680 --> 1:47:01.360 Right, that's we were going to cut it off today 1:47:01.479 --> 1:47:03.800 and we will pick up again tomorrow to hear more 1:47:03.840 --> 1:47:05.720 about any of his journey, how he's found himself in 1:47:05.760 --> 1:47:08.720 the United States, where he's going, and where he is now. 1:47:08.880 --> 1:47:26.680 Thank you so much. I wanted to ask. So one 1:47:26.720 --> 1:47:29.360 of the people on the corner is Emmett. Emmett had 1:47:29.360 --> 1:47:33.000 helped build some other shelters. You may not know. And 1:47:33.120 --> 1:47:36.800 most there are three camps. Maybe David shaddis with you, 1:47:37.560 --> 1:47:39.120 similar to the one that you were in. There are 1:47:39.160 --> 1:47:43.400 three in different locations. Some of them are even colder 1:47:43.640 --> 1:47:48.479 than the one that you've stayed in, and volunteers including 1:47:48.479 --> 1:47:53.240 myself included Emmett, had built shelters. Emmett, perhaps you could 1:47:53.240 --> 1:47:56.559 describe like how you sort of decided to do that 1:47:56.600 --> 1:48:00.120 and came up with the shelter design that you came 1:48:00.160 --> 1:48:00.519 up with. 1:48:01.400 --> 1:48:03.880 Yeah, definitely, And I just just want to say I'm 1:48:03.880 --> 1:48:08.680 processing also a most is also hearing your story and appreciating, 1:48:08.760 --> 1:48:11.679 like for all of us coming to build shelters, it's 1:48:11.720 --> 1:48:14.880 it's it's realizing there's all these stories that we're are 1:48:14.920 --> 1:48:18.479 not knowing, and you know, all of us are these 1:48:18.479 --> 1:48:22.640 lives that are so independent individual and showing up and 1:48:23.040 --> 1:48:26.320 meeting folks who've been through whatever they have been and 1:48:28.680 --> 1:48:31.000 it like does it does stuff to us all? 1:48:31.040 --> 1:48:31.200 You know? 1:48:31.240 --> 1:48:32.800 And I think I'm hearing you right now. I'm just 1:48:32.880 --> 1:48:35.880 really processing kind of what you're saying. And I hope 1:48:35.920 --> 1:48:38.519 many people hear how you're framing all this. Guys really 1:48:38.520 --> 1:48:41.719 appreciate how you're framing the story and how you're sharing 1:48:42.360 --> 1:48:46.120 both your perspective but also what it means to just 1:48:46.160 --> 1:48:47.760 be confused to think. 1:48:48.000 --> 1:48:49.080 So for for me. 1:48:49.120 --> 1:48:52.080 Like I've I guess I felt so even after many 1:48:52.160 --> 1:48:53.240 years of working. 1:48:54.760 --> 1:48:55.400 In this space. 1:48:55.520 --> 1:48:59.280 Just so confused by how or by how CVP is 1:48:59.320 --> 1:49:02.559 treating people in the in the oasis in this desert 1:49:02.640 --> 1:49:09.120 right now. But uh, basically it's winter time now in 1:49:09.120 --> 1:49:14.799 in in California, and for the last several months people 1:49:15.640 --> 1:49:18.600 have been kept overnight in in the desert on in 1:49:18.600 --> 1:49:23.479 the borderlands, which has been brutal, and it has been 1:49:23.600 --> 1:49:26.160 terrible and and and any humane have. 1:49:26.240 --> 1:49:27.959 First cup to keep people of the desert. 1:49:28.160 --> 1:49:31.479 But as it became winter, it became deadly and the 1:49:31.640 --> 1:49:38.040 risk of extreme hypothermia events for for hundreds of people 1:49:38.040 --> 1:49:40.960 became so severe that a lot of a lot of 1:49:41.000 --> 1:49:44.520 our you know, day in, day out, uh work to 1:49:44.560 --> 1:49:46.960 make sure people had food and if there were babies 1:49:47.000 --> 1:49:49.280 that they were taking care of as needed, or if 1:49:49.479 --> 1:49:52.160 if folks had specific health issues that we could show 1:49:52.200 --> 1:49:55.840 it for them. But but the thought of just doing 1:49:55.880 --> 1:49:58.760 that and hope, you know, bringing as many blankets as 1:49:58.760 --> 1:50:01.880 we could. Uh, We're bringing up blankets and tents and 1:50:01.960 --> 1:50:06.000 tarps things keep people off the ground, you know, basically 1:50:06.080 --> 1:50:08.639 looking in our basements and asking all of our friends, like, hey, 1:50:09.600 --> 1:50:13.280 we're looking behind every gas station for for for boxes 1:50:13.640 --> 1:50:17.040 of cardboard or whatever it is. But that just didn't 1:50:17.040 --> 1:50:17.559 seem enough. 1:50:17.600 --> 1:50:17.920 It didn't. 1:50:17.960 --> 1:50:20.320 It seemed like we were actually doing a harm to 1:50:20.360 --> 1:50:22.719 be to be the ones who had seen this and 1:50:22.920 --> 1:50:25.880 something we deal with israelizing. There's so many folks who 1:50:25.920 --> 1:50:28.000 just don't know what's going on. So for us to 1:50:28.040 --> 1:50:31.800 be a community seeing this and not not taking to 1:50:31.840 --> 1:50:33.760 the next the next level and its still I feel 1:50:33.800 --> 1:50:36.599 this way, but it felt like we were not doing 1:50:39.040 --> 1:50:40.880 or we were actual doing a harm by not by 1:50:40.880 --> 1:50:44.879 not kind of addressing the winter as it was happening. 1:50:44.880 --> 1:50:47.840 So the idea of building shelters was was to try 1:50:47.880 --> 1:50:52.680 to basically do do something more than just bringing out 1:50:52.880 --> 1:50:56.200 supplies and letting people you know, vent for themselves, but 1:50:56.280 --> 1:50:59.080 creating something that might actually create more of a long 1:50:59.160 --> 1:51:03.280 term safety. And then again, I mean this is this 1:51:03.320 --> 1:51:06.799 is these are detention sites. We are we are working 1:51:07.200 --> 1:51:12.640 as volunteers inside of a basically informal detention site that 1:51:12.720 --> 1:51:15.640 CBP is operating. So it's a very confusing for us 1:51:15.680 --> 1:51:18.559 to know, you know, we're here trying to be with 1:51:18.640 --> 1:51:21.280 people directly, trying to see what people are wanting and 1:51:21.320 --> 1:51:24.519 needing and what is their their needs, but we're also 1:51:24.640 --> 1:51:30.840 kind of navigating around this very erratic system that is 1:51:31.240 --> 1:51:36.760 sometimes denying us entry to these sites, sometimes trying to 1:51:36.800 --> 1:51:39.960 have us do things for them, and other times kind 1:51:39.960 --> 1:51:43.120 of allowing us to be there and you know, you know, 1:51:43.160 --> 1:51:46.519 bringing food because it serves them, serves VP for us 1:51:46.560 --> 1:51:50.320 to keep people alive. But that's a really confusing process. 1:51:50.360 --> 1:51:52.800 So anyways, there was a lot of talk going on 1:51:52.840 --> 1:51:55.960 about making shelters that people have been assembling palts, and 1:51:56.040 --> 1:51:59.040 one day I was just talking with some of the 1:51:59.080 --> 1:52:01.640 other organizers and we're thinking, well, 't's do this. I'll 1:52:01.680 --> 1:52:05.679 come back tomorrow and we will start. And so with 1:52:05.680 --> 1:52:08.400 with some volunteers from the Dollar Lunch Club from UC 1:52:08.560 --> 1:52:13.760 San Diego, we set out and to the campsite we 1:52:13.840 --> 1:52:17.479 call Tower one seven seven and started building this. And 1:52:17.520 --> 1:52:21.880 immediately kind of as you're saying, also, Amos, we had 1:52:22.040 --> 1:52:26.920 about a team of ten people from Columbia and Kyrghistan 1:52:27.400 --> 1:52:29.160 helping us build this. 1:52:29.160 --> 1:52:30.040 This shelter. 1:52:31.360 --> 1:52:40.200 From palettes, cardboard, plastic, sheeting, tarts, and James and myself 1:52:40.320 --> 1:52:42.639 and some other folks had been talking the night before 1:52:43.160 --> 1:52:45.680 what are the different shelters and using all of our 1:52:46.160 --> 1:52:49.040 outdoor experience, worlderness experience and kind of putting it all 1:52:49.040 --> 1:52:52.080 together and having kind of a roundtable discussion like well, 1:52:52.120 --> 1:52:54.960 I've seen this work before, I've I've done this before. 1:52:55.000 --> 1:52:56.720 I mean, this might work, might be, this might be 1:52:56.720 --> 1:52:58.920 a nice way of using these palettes, trying to find 1:52:58.920 --> 1:53:03.480 something that'll be stable to uh, you know withstand wind conditions, 1:53:03.920 --> 1:53:07.439 it being kind of you know, resource smart, making sure 1:53:07.439 --> 1:53:10.240 we're not over using whatever would we have, and some 1:53:10.280 --> 1:53:13.160 sort of super intricate design and also something that we 1:53:13.200 --> 1:53:16.000 could we could assemble quite quickly and would be versatile, 1:53:16.080 --> 1:53:18.640 so something we could do in different different settings. And 1:53:18.720 --> 1:53:22.960 also building something and building a design that wouldn't wouldn't 1:53:23.000 --> 1:53:25.960 be super hard for people to use. So yeah, so 1:53:26.080 --> 1:53:27.240 it just felt like we were kind of just like 1:53:27.320 --> 1:53:28.960 kind of putting putting our herds together. And that's what 1:53:29.000 --> 1:53:32.160 we came up with was basically this super shelter that 1:53:32.320 --> 1:53:36.559 was has basically a backbone of six palettes and maybe 1:53:36.600 --> 1:53:39.760 I don't know, James, it's possible to like some some 1:53:40.479 --> 1:53:44.760 photos or what whatnot, but putting together basically great, right, Yeah, 1:53:44.800 --> 1:53:48.720 some sort of ur like structure that can be kind 1:53:48.720 --> 1:53:51.080 of designed or can be changed as it wouldn't be 1:53:51.160 --> 1:53:54.120 and especially something that anybody who's using it gets to 1:53:54.160 --> 1:53:57.200 actually have mimic their own their own home, their own setup, 1:53:57.280 --> 1:53:59.000 So it's not something that we're kind of dictating how 1:53:59.000 --> 1:54:01.880 it needs to be used. But yeah, we've got to 1:54:01.960 --> 1:54:05.520 had a really positive experience and a lot of expertise 1:54:05.600 --> 1:54:10.000 from folks from from Kyrgyzstan to kind of lead the way. 1:54:10.080 --> 1:54:13.600 So we brought tools and other folks who were you 1:54:13.600 --> 1:54:20.400 going to use it? Basically creditd them created shelter themselves. Yeah, 1:54:20.439 --> 1:54:21.640 so that that was that was that, that was our 1:54:21.680 --> 1:54:24.600 first experience and yeah, and. 1:54:24.680 --> 1:54:27.360 Most his point was really a good one and it's 1:54:27.400 --> 1:54:30.240 one I'd considered too, like it it's quite Yeah, I 1:54:30.240 --> 1:54:32.600 don't want to compare the difficulties we encounter as volunteers 1:54:32.640 --> 1:54:35.440 to the difficulties so almost has just encountered, has just 1:54:35.720 --> 1:54:38.320 kind of shared with us in his journey because they're 1:54:38.320 --> 1:54:40.920 not the same, but like, it can be quite different. 1:54:40.960 --> 1:54:43.400 I speak quite a few languages, but still with large 1:54:43.400 --> 1:54:45.120 groups of people who you can't speak to, and do 1:54:45.120 --> 1:54:47.560 you want to connect? You want to be like what's 1:54:47.560 --> 1:54:51.120 happening to you is it's it's disgusting and disgraceful and 1:54:51.240 --> 1:54:54.240 it's not me. I'm not I don't want it to happen, 1:54:54.560 --> 1:54:57.440 and it shouldn't be. And I want to be in 1:54:57.480 --> 1:54:59.680 community with you as much as I can. And so 1:55:00.520 --> 1:55:03.400 when we don't have that language, the way that we 1:55:03.440 --> 1:55:07.000 can connect. One of the ways that we can connect 1:55:07.560 --> 1:55:10.760 is to grab a hammer or its screwdriver or something 1:55:10.800 --> 1:55:11.520 and stop building. 1:55:11.680 --> 1:55:13.640 I love it. I love it. You're so right. You're 1:55:13.760 --> 1:55:17.120 so right, James, you are so on pointed. No, I mean, 1:55:17.160 --> 1:55:21.800 you know, it's just seeing that that real B drill 1:55:22.080 --> 1:55:24.240 was like heaven to me. I mean, I swear not 1:55:24.320 --> 1:55:27.320 to give you know, any brands or whatever. I'm just 1:55:27.360 --> 1:55:32.160 saying it's not It's not my favorite brand for sure, 1:55:32.400 --> 1:55:36.920 But but but you really, really, I mean truly like 1:55:37.040 --> 1:55:39.800 you guys say, I mean, it's just such an universal 1:55:40.480 --> 1:55:44.600 sort of language. Like as men and as women and 1:55:44.640 --> 1:55:47.520 as people, we want to build, we want to protect, 1:55:47.520 --> 1:55:49.680 we want we want to I mean, I'm taking this 1:55:49.800 --> 1:55:53.440 journey to come to my kids and show them support 1:55:53.520 --> 1:55:57.600 and safety and protect. And it's happening, you know right now, 1:55:57.680 --> 1:55:59.960 I'm talking. I was talking to them earlier, and you know, 1:56:00.040 --> 1:56:02.400 they're excited to see their dad soon and you know, 1:56:02.640 --> 1:56:04.600 just that that feeling of warmth, and I mean, this 1:56:04.640 --> 1:56:06.160 is what we do. This is what we do. And 1:56:06.160 --> 1:56:08.680 then if you want to narrow it down and break 1:56:08.720 --> 1:56:10.800 it down to the basics, it's just what it is. 1:56:10.840 --> 1:56:14.640 It's the human level, it's the human condition. I mean really, 1:56:14.720 --> 1:56:16.680 so these guys are going to go through this pain 1:56:16.920 --> 1:56:20.080 for what I mean, clearly they're going through you know, worse, 1:56:20.240 --> 1:56:22.560 worser things. And then that's the whole point, that's what 1:56:22.880 --> 1:56:27.000 they're trying to do. So and then, uh, before I forget, 1:56:27.040 --> 1:56:28.760 and then I don't hope, I hope my phone doesn't 1:56:29.000 --> 1:56:31.640 you know, die on me. Let me just give you 1:56:31.680 --> 1:56:35.040 the detention. If you guys haven't, let me give you Yeah, yeah, 1:56:35.640 --> 1:56:40.200 before I you know, so basically on I think it 1:56:40.240 --> 1:56:40.760 was Monday. 1:56:40.840 --> 1:56:46.720 We we uh get rounded up to what is can 1:56:46.760 --> 1:56:53.080 easily be compared to the cattle I wrench cattle kind 1:56:53.080 --> 1:56:56.200 of process where you know, here, take off your. 1:56:56.320 --> 1:56:59.720 Your your belts and everything that's familiar, but you know 1:57:00.040 --> 1:57:02.520 it's a little extra. The bus driver is cussing a 1:57:02.560 --> 1:57:05.840 t you like it's nobody's business, and and and you know, 1:57:06.000 --> 1:57:08.000 gratuitous humiliation. 1:57:08.360 --> 1:57:11.000 And you know, maybe you have one of them is nice. 1:57:10.760 --> 1:57:13.800 But the rest are just you know, absolutely want to 1:57:13.920 --> 1:57:18.680 just carry you down as much as they can. And anyhow, 1:57:18.720 --> 1:57:22.280 so we're lined up, we're onto this bus that's behind 1:57:22.960 --> 1:57:23.760 the camp. 1:57:23.560 --> 1:57:25.960 Closer to Highway eighty I believe Highway eighty. 1:57:26.040 --> 1:57:30.400 Yes, yeah, and uh uh and basically we're lined up, 1:57:30.840 --> 1:57:36.040 we're tagged, we're uh, basically stripped of everything that could 1:57:36.080 --> 1:57:40.160 be quote unquote dangerous. We're left with only one shirt 1:57:40.720 --> 1:57:44.600 in the middle of that cold morning. And uh doesn't 1:57:44.640 --> 1:57:47.560 man and man doesn't matter, man woman. Everybody is treated 1:57:47.560 --> 1:57:51.240 as saying I appreciate their their equality on that issue. 1:57:51.600 --> 1:57:55.839 Uh So, and then we are on a bus journey 1:57:55.960 --> 1:57:58.040 that's about an hour and a half, maybe two hours 1:57:58.240 --> 1:58:02.840 anymore to the Uh. I'm trying to remember this very 1:58:02.840 --> 1:58:05.480 well because it's just, you know, it's important. I guess 1:58:05.800 --> 1:58:11.880 San Diego, Uh, the San Diego Sorting Facility, san Diego 1:58:11.920 --> 1:58:16.920 District Sorting Facility a k A. M c U, that's 1:58:16.960 --> 1:58:21.120 what we call it. And basically, uh, you know, your 1:58:21.200 --> 1:58:24.760 your stuff is sorted and anything that needs to be 1:58:24.800 --> 1:58:28.600 thrown with a thrown away and you're given you become 1:58:28.800 --> 1:58:32.720 a let me be clear, you become a subject. You're 1:58:32.720 --> 1:58:36.040 a subject. Now you're not an alien. You're a subject. James, 1:58:36.080 --> 1:58:39.480 make sure you understand this. You're a subject, sir. Let's 1:58:39.520 --> 1:58:43.720 be clear about the naming structure. You are a subject, 1:58:44.080 --> 1:58:49.080 all right. So I'm given a subject number and yeah, exactly. 1:58:49.120 --> 1:58:51.160 I mean, I can't believe in this day and age, 1:58:51.960 --> 1:58:54.760 I got used to the whole alien thing, you know, 1:58:54.840 --> 1:58:59.920 alien number, but now it's a subject number. So anyhow, 1:59:00.040 --> 1:59:02.400 so we're done. We're going through that. And then you 1:59:02.400 --> 1:59:05.280 you know, you just look at people and the daisiness 1:59:05.280 --> 1:59:09.360 and the confusion and confusion elders, women, babies. It's just 1:59:09.520 --> 1:59:12.160 heart taking. And again you had a couple of military 1:59:12.920 --> 1:59:15.920 order performance all and acting like they're in the Marine Corps. 1:59:16.000 --> 1:59:18.400 They're just shouting up the right and they're like, you know, 1:59:18.520 --> 1:59:22.840 treating people that they were disposable. So that's right there. 1:59:23.600 --> 1:59:27.839 Uh anyhow so that's the they call it the intake. 1:59:28.280 --> 1:59:30.880 So you're you're doing the intake and you're lined up 1:59:30.920 --> 1:59:36.760 and you're being stripped, not striptured, searched. You're searched, and 1:59:36.800 --> 1:59:40.440 then your your backpack is taking away. You open it 1:59:40.520 --> 1:59:41.640 up in front of them as if you were at 1:59:41.680 --> 1:59:43.680 the airport, and then they throw away stuff. 1:59:43.720 --> 1:59:47.880 That's that, even though they're not what's crazy is there? 1:59:48.600 --> 1:59:52.120 The backpack is gonna be h zipped and they're gonna 1:59:52.200 --> 1:59:54.480 be tagged and put away. So I'm not sure why 1:59:54.760 --> 1:59:58.520 thrown away food from the backpack is going to add 1:59:58.640 --> 2:00:02.160 anything or anyth Some things don't make sense, but I 2:00:02.200 --> 2:00:06.040 guess that's what it is. So then you're you're you're 2:00:06.040 --> 2:00:10.280 done with the intake, your sit down inside the central 2:00:10.320 --> 2:00:12.920 area and you're waiting to be processed. 2:00:13.560 --> 2:00:17.520 Processing means fingerprints, picture. 2:00:17.880 --> 2:00:21.040 And then you're right down they take a copy of 2:00:21.080 --> 2:00:24.360 your passport and in there you write down the address 2:00:24.400 --> 2:00:27.240 in which you will be quote unquote released later on. 2:00:27.720 --> 2:00:32.960 So that's that, and then basically a couple of hours later, 2:00:33.520 --> 2:00:38.080 you're assigned a detention cell. It's not it's a big place, 2:00:38.240 --> 2:00:40.080 and it's not a cell like a small cell. It's 2:00:40.080 --> 2:00:43.200 probably I don't know, twenty by. I don't know. I'm 2:00:43.200 --> 2:00:45.760 bad with that business. But any of the point is 2:00:46.000 --> 2:00:50.960 we're there, we're taking to this place. I don't know, James, 2:00:51.000 --> 2:00:52.760 I don't know what you think of this. So so 2:00:53.120 --> 2:00:59.400 they don't put handcuffs on us, but they tell you 2:00:59.440 --> 2:01:02.640 to put your hands behind your back as you're walking. 2:01:03.680 --> 2:01:04.760 Yeah, very strange. 2:01:05.800 --> 2:01:08.600 I don't understand. What's the point of that. Like they 2:01:08.640 --> 2:01:11.560 insist on putting your hands as if they were handcuffed 2:01:11.560 --> 2:01:15.400 behind your back as you walk. It as as you're walking. 2:01:15.560 --> 2:01:18.520 That is a big rule. And if you don't do it, 2:01:18.560 --> 2:01:21.840 they get pissed at you. And I'm not gonna at you. 2:01:21.960 --> 2:01:23.960 I'm always testing the water. And I pissed them off 2:01:24.000 --> 2:01:26.640 a number of times. I did put my hands forward 2:01:27.080 --> 2:01:28.880 because I'm like, what what are you trying to get to? 2:01:29.000 --> 2:01:32.240 You know? Anyhow, so you get into your cell. Mine 2:01:32.360 --> 2:01:36.760 was two A right, two A yeah. Pod. I'm sorry, 2:01:36.760 --> 2:01:38.120 it's called they called pods. 2:01:38.280 --> 2:01:38.600 Pods. 2:01:38.840 --> 2:01:42.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah, Because you know we're we're into share 2:01:43.320 --> 2:01:48.680 what is it, work share spaces basically pods. 2:01:50.240 --> 2:01:53.320 Said, yeah, we work here, we go, we work. 2:01:53.960 --> 2:01:58.560 So we were there. You're giving gym mats gym matts, 2:01:59.000 --> 2:02:02.760 and then you know, when we all put our gym 2:02:02.800 --> 2:02:06.760 mats on the floor, imagine there is zero space in between, 2:02:07.360 --> 2:02:11.000 Like the whole pod is covered with gym mats. Now 2:02:11.440 --> 2:02:14.920 you have to walk on gym mats basically anywhere you go. 2:02:15.360 --> 2:02:17.920 All right, So that's that's the fact. And then you're 2:02:17.960 --> 2:02:21.080 giving these what do you call them? There's the not thermos, 2:02:21.120 --> 2:02:24.400 the alloy foil blankets whatever. 2:02:24.520 --> 2:02:27.240 We have blankets, yeah, yeah, thank you. 2:02:27.320 --> 2:02:30.880 Yeah, those guys and they do kind of work. But 2:02:31.160 --> 2:02:33.280 for me, they're too small. I mean, I guess I'm 2:02:33.280 --> 2:02:36.000 a tall guy. I mean, I don't know. So either 2:02:36.040 --> 2:02:38.160 your foots are sticking out or your head is sticking 2:02:38.200 --> 2:02:40.160 out or whatever. And I'm not the only one. That's 2:02:40.160 --> 2:02:43.000 a lot of people like that. So and then AC 2:02:43.360 --> 2:02:48.240 is blasting full speed twenty four to seven light, full 2:02:48.320 --> 2:02:52.880 bright light twenty four seven and yeah, and then a 2:02:52.920 --> 2:02:55.400 lot of you know again, they teach this in school 2:02:55.400 --> 2:02:58.720 in psychology. Want to want so light twenty four to seven, 2:02:59.480 --> 2:03:02.920 AC freezing. I see, we're only allowed the shirt one shirt, 2:03:03.240 --> 2:03:08.120 one shirt. And then I'm talking about probably they have 2:03:08.240 --> 2:03:13.040 it on fifty five sixty sixty sixty no more than 2:03:13.080 --> 2:03:15.640 sixty degrees for sure, all right. And then you have 2:03:15.720 --> 2:03:21.480 people cold and getting sick. And then they cleaned three 2:03:21.520 --> 2:03:25.000 times a day to their credits where we all have 2:03:25.080 --> 2:03:27.520 to get out so the cleaning crew could come in. 2:03:28.160 --> 2:03:31.360 But here's the key. They clean at eight in the morning, 2:03:32.200 --> 2:03:35.839 at the at five in the afternoon, and at midnight. 2:03:37.240 --> 2:03:38.080 You can't sleep. 2:03:38.760 --> 2:03:42.840 Come on, dude, really seriously, and God forbid you ask 2:03:43.200 --> 2:03:46.560 God forbid you ask, because that's just not allowed, you know. 2:03:46.680 --> 2:03:51.480 So midnight, exactly, midnight sharp, get out people, everybody sleep, 2:03:51.560 --> 2:03:53.760 everybody sleep, get up, get up, get up, get out, 2:03:54.160 --> 2:03:57.200 and there's no again. It's it's it's you know, we 2:03:57.320 --> 2:03:59.280 know these tactics, we read about these. 2:03:59.400 --> 2:04:01.480 This is like, you know, torture in a way. 2:04:01.600 --> 2:04:01.760 You know. 2:04:02.080 --> 2:04:04.840 I bet you somewhere in the Geneva Convention there's something 2:04:04.840 --> 2:04:09.440 about this. I mean, I'm sure, yeah, So so, you know, 2:04:09.480 --> 2:04:12.160 I didn't want to create too much drama the first day, James. 2:04:12.400 --> 2:04:14.680 The second day I started testing the water. I'm like, 2:04:14.760 --> 2:04:17.560 you know, I'm being nice to everybody. Nobody speaks English, 2:04:17.600 --> 2:04:19.040 so I have to kind of speak up for people. 2:04:19.440 --> 2:04:22.560 You know, some people need to go medicine, I mean, 2:04:22.560 --> 2:04:24.880 you know, medicine or whatever. I speak for that whatever. 2:04:25.400 --> 2:04:28.600 And then some people are just don't understand when their 2:04:28.720 --> 2:04:30.720 name is called for it because it's misspelled. So I'll 2:04:30.760 --> 2:04:33.000 help for that, you know. In general, like you know, 2:04:33.040 --> 2:04:37.440 I literally would walk around and ask for extra blankets 2:04:37.440 --> 2:04:39.280 and things like that. It's all of being doing. I 2:04:39.280 --> 2:04:41.240 hope the video will come out and we're doing a 2:04:41.240 --> 2:04:45.920 few Freedom of Information Act requests. Hopefully we can get that. Yeah, yeah, 2:04:46.000 --> 2:04:48.400 hopefully we'll share that with you. I mean it takes. 2:04:48.640 --> 2:04:50.680 I mean they're gonna fight at tooth and nay, they're 2:04:50.680 --> 2:04:53.920 gonna fight at tooth and nail. Oh yeah, exactly, thank you, 2:04:53.960 --> 2:04:58.400 thank you exactly. Sonyhow so uh yeah. After the second 2:04:58.520 --> 2:05:01.160 day again they give you for I mean food, I 2:05:01.160 --> 2:05:05.480 guess food. Yeah, they give you food. The second day, 2:05:06.480 --> 2:05:08.800 I started asking the question, Okay, when am I going 2:05:08.880 --> 2:05:12.360 to get my phone call? The first person said, oh, 2:05:12.600 --> 2:05:15.720 I'll cast on to your request. By the end of 2:05:15.720 --> 2:05:17.080 the day, I've asked like three. 2:05:16.920 --> 2:05:18.720 Four times to three four different people. 2:05:19.680 --> 2:05:26.520 So the pods area is manned supervised by DSS police 2:05:27.640 --> 2:05:31.160 and then the processing in the central area is done 2:05:31.160 --> 2:05:35.720 by VP, and VP and Customs and DSS hate each other. 2:05:35.800 --> 2:05:38.400 I mean, that's just clear. They told me that to 2:05:38.480 --> 2:05:41.520 my face. They don't get along all right, Right, So 2:05:43.560 --> 2:05:46.360 when you were talking to DSS policicals, they're the one 2:05:46.480 --> 2:05:50.200 kind of the prison guards. They just don't then talk 2:05:50.280 --> 2:05:52.960 to VP. They don't convey the information that you're as 2:05:53.000 --> 2:05:57.800 a prisoner there. So that's been difficult. So you would 2:05:57.840 --> 2:06:00.840 want to ask to go to the or something, so 2:06:01.040 --> 2:06:02.800 on the way you can try to pass on then 2:06:03.280 --> 2:06:05.680 sony know, so I kind of located the situation. And 2:06:05.720 --> 2:06:08.960 then on the second day, I asked three times I 2:06:09.000 --> 2:06:11.920 need my phone call. They came out and told me, 2:06:12.080 --> 2:06:15.680 you're crazy. We don't do phone calls. Stop asking. So 2:06:15.720 --> 2:06:19.520 you're telling me I'm a us soil. I you know, 2:06:19.560 --> 2:06:23.280 I don't get to see the outdoor twenty four to seven, 2:06:23.840 --> 2:06:25.480 and you don't let me make a call to my 2:06:25.920 --> 2:06:29.240 lawyer or family. And that's when I just lost my 2:06:29.240 --> 2:06:32.520 my ship. So that by the end of the second day, 2:06:33.040 --> 2:06:39.440 I entered into a hunger strike. Wow, my body shut yeah, 2:06:39.440 --> 2:06:41.839 my body shut down completely. My body shut down completely. 2:06:41.920 --> 2:06:45.720 People were that that known me to be constantly active. 2:06:45.760 --> 2:06:48.800 I do I do yoga. I do I did yoga. 2:06:48.920 --> 2:06:52.160 Did you know? People will started following me doing activities 2:06:52.160 --> 2:06:55.960 and trying to be sharp, you know, stay sharp. They 2:06:56.040 --> 2:06:58.920 saw me shut down completely. I didn't I didn't eat 2:06:59.120 --> 2:07:02.320 or drink anything. I mean completely, I shut down everything, 2:07:02.360 --> 2:07:07.000 all systems of board. That's it. So right away my 2:07:07.040 --> 2:07:10.960 eyes are closed. The next day they start freaking out. 2:07:11.280 --> 2:07:15.160 They bringing the wheelchair, but before they you know, just 2:07:15.200 --> 2:07:16.920 to let you know, before they put me on the 2:07:16.960 --> 2:07:20.560 wheelchair with the baton. They're just hammering me to make 2:07:20.600 --> 2:07:23.879 sure I'm this is real their hammer. I still have bruises. 2:07:24.080 --> 2:07:26.600 I still have like a red dot on my chest, 2:07:26.680 --> 2:07:27.240 you know what I mean. 2:07:27.840 --> 2:07:31.240 So so yeah, I mean, you know the kindness of 2:07:31.280 --> 2:07:31.680 their heart. 2:07:31.760 --> 2:07:35.240 Yeah. Again, they're very hateful because of where they are 2:07:35.280 --> 2:07:41.120 and what's going on. So yeah, so uh yeah, So 2:07:41.160 --> 2:07:44.280 I'm taking to the nurse. The nurse tells me what's 2:07:44.320 --> 2:07:47.440 going on. I thought, look, my body has shut down. 2:07:47.880 --> 2:07:49.880 My wife and kids don't know where I'm at. They 2:07:49.920 --> 2:07:54.200 don't know if I'm life or death or dead, and 2:07:54.280 --> 2:07:57.600 I just can't eat or drink or anything. Listen, sir, 2:07:58.600 --> 2:08:00.240 it's okay if you don't want to eat, but you 2:08:00.280 --> 2:08:02.640 have to drink well at least water, or we're gonna 2:08:02.680 --> 2:08:04.800 put the iv We can give you IV or medical 2:08:04.880 --> 2:08:09.520 or anti depressants or anti anxiety medicine. Listen, lady, I've 2:08:09.560 --> 2:08:13.360 never had the time depressant or medication. I rarely take medication. 2:08:13.720 --> 2:08:16.520 I would not have medication. That is not an option. 2:08:16.800 --> 2:08:18.320 I don't want the ivy. I don't want you to 2:08:18.320 --> 2:08:21.800 touch my body. Period. I am this is me fully 2:08:21.880 --> 2:08:25.200 where what the consequences are and unless I get a 2:08:25.280 --> 2:08:28.160 hold of my Laura, or call my family and tell 2:08:28.200 --> 2:08:30.680 them that I'm alive or where I'm at. This is 2:08:30.720 --> 2:08:33.000 gonna go. Last time I did this, I did it 2:08:33.040 --> 2:08:37.080 for four or five days, no problem. So they started 2:08:37.080 --> 2:08:40.839 freaking out. James there really they called the big guns. 2:08:41.400 --> 2:08:44.920 I think he was a lieutenant or whatever the ranking is. 2:08:45.080 --> 2:08:47.280 He came in, listen, what's going on? What are you doing? Man? 2:08:47.320 --> 2:08:50.480 They can't be doing this in my house again, my house. 2:08:50.880 --> 2:08:55.760 The guy owns the place, all right. So I'm like, listen, yeah, 2:08:56.480 --> 2:08:59.480 I'm done. If you don't give me my call, expect 2:08:59.480 --> 2:09:02.320 me to do this for the I'll go to the end. 2:09:02.360 --> 2:09:05.600 I've done this against corrupt governments and when I was 2:09:05.680 --> 2:09:07.600 arrested in Tunisia or whatever. 2:09:07.840 --> 2:09:10.200 I can do this all day long, man, all day long. 2:09:10.800 --> 2:09:14.120 So he's like, you can't do this. This is ridiculous. 2:09:14.160 --> 2:09:15.720 I have eighteen hundred people here. You're going to start 2:09:15.720 --> 2:09:18.080 a problem. I don't want problems here. So he takes 2:09:18.080 --> 2:09:20.240 me straight up to the central area, put me in 2:09:20.280 --> 2:09:22.280 front of phone, give me the phone number. I give 2:09:22.360 --> 2:09:25.440 him the phone number. He does my wife bam, bam, shazam. 2:09:25.840 --> 2:09:28.640 I call her. They were still asleep at seven in 2:09:28.720 --> 2:09:31.320 the morning. They have school at eight thirty, so I 2:09:31.360 --> 2:09:34.040 live her a voicemail. I later found out that she 2:09:34.040 --> 2:09:36.880 did get the voicemail, thank god, and then she felt 2:09:36.920 --> 2:09:38.560 really good when she heard my voice and she knew 2:09:39.320 --> 2:09:42.760 you yeah, yeah, So I don't know, tell you man, 2:09:42.800 --> 2:09:45.000 you know, it's just a no man's land and it's 2:09:45.040 --> 2:09:49.280 just dude. When I got to talk to the supervisor, 2:09:49.320 --> 2:09:52.480 when I escalated because they took my DNA, like what 2:09:53.000 --> 2:09:54.720 I told him, Look, what's going on? Why are you 2:09:54.720 --> 2:09:57.960 taking people's DNA? Like, what's going on? I told him, 2:09:58.400 --> 2:10:01.400 what are you accusing us for? What is the accusation exactly? 2:10:01.600 --> 2:10:04.120 He said, you're not accused of anything, and what am 2:10:04.160 --> 2:10:06.640 I guilty of? You're not guilty of anything? So why 2:10:06.640 --> 2:10:09.480 are you taking my DNA? And then when he's just 2:10:09.680 --> 2:10:11.440 because this is the guy, the main guy. This is 2:10:11.480 --> 2:10:14.280 the guy that I saw coming in an intake and 2:10:14.320 --> 2:10:16.960 then laid on an outcake. He's got like twenty screens 2:10:17.000 --> 2:10:19.480 in front of him, he's manning the border. He's like, 2:10:19.560 --> 2:10:21.680 you know, it's the main guy. Like I say, it's him. 2:10:22.560 --> 2:10:25.160 So I told him, do you have your DNA your 2:10:25.160 --> 2:10:27.120 own DNA taking? He said yes, I did okay. I 2:10:27.120 --> 2:10:29.000 told him if your DNA was taken and you can 2:10:29.000 --> 2:10:32.160 take mine, that's fine. So they're taking people's DNA to 2:10:32.200 --> 2:10:35.240 put it in the database. And if you don't sign, 2:10:35.640 --> 2:10:37.280 they don't let you. They don't let you out. So 2:10:37.320 --> 2:10:39.840 you can stay there indefinitely until you do your DNA. 2:10:40.760 --> 2:10:42.600 How is this okay? Yeah? 2:10:43.400 --> 2:10:45.000 And you're not givet you of anything, James. 2:10:45.040 --> 2:10:48.200 You're not gilty of anything. That's the key. So you're 2:10:48.240 --> 2:10:50.200 not guilty of anything. I mean, I understand if you're 2:10:50.240 --> 2:10:54.480 arrested for a misdemeanor or a pelony, and you know, 2:10:54.880 --> 2:10:57.520 you know in states they take the DNA, I get it. 2:10:57.520 --> 2:11:01.920 But if you're there's no isation, there's no guilty, and 2:11:02.000 --> 2:11:08.120 yet you're taking my DNA for what for what? So so, 2:11:08.120 --> 2:11:09.800 so it was really rough. It was really rough. 2:11:09.840 --> 2:11:12.440 And then and they were very very nasty. 2:11:12.560 --> 2:11:14.880 I mean, one lady, miss Diaz, I will never forget her, 2:11:15.200 --> 2:11:19.160 Officer DEAs. I mean, she was cussing left and right, 2:11:19.400 --> 2:11:23.000 left and right, left and right. And then I lost it, man, 2:11:23.200 --> 2:11:26.440 when I when when she had me for I think 2:11:26.720 --> 2:11:30.760 they had me do sign papers again, all right? So 2:11:30.840 --> 2:11:33.480 I was simply asking why am I saying signing the 2:11:33.480 --> 2:11:35.960 same papers again, do you want to leave? What do 2:11:35.960 --> 2:11:36.920 you want to leave? Do you want to leave? What 2:11:36.960 --> 2:11:40.440 you want to leave? And then on the same time, James, 2:11:40.440 --> 2:11:43.480 as she talks to me, she pauses. She looks at 2:11:43.040 --> 2:11:46.560 her colleagues and she's smiling to them, and she's talking 2:11:46.600 --> 2:11:48.920 to them so nice. I simply told her, why are 2:11:48.920 --> 2:11:51.360 you talking nicely to your friends and you're so mean 2:11:51.400 --> 2:11:53.560 to us that? Why why are you doing this? Like? 2:11:53.600 --> 2:11:54.800 What is what is the problem? 2:11:55.240 --> 2:11:56.240 Did I did I? 2:11:56.440 --> 2:11:58.400 Did I call your names? Did I say something bad? 2:11:59.120 --> 2:12:01.360 No? But you know my friend. Yeah, But even if 2:12:01.400 --> 2:12:02.920 I'm not your friend, why are you clussing at me? 2:12:02.920 --> 2:12:05.800 Why are you saying these bad things that shut her down? 2:12:05.960 --> 2:12:08.080 That totally shut her down? James, I mean it was 2:12:08.120 --> 2:12:10.480 a completely different person after that because it was in 2:12:10.480 --> 2:12:12.760 front of her boss. It was in front of her boss. 2:12:13.280 --> 2:12:16.320 I mean, I'm telling you, man, they're just this is 2:12:16.320 --> 2:12:22.120 what happens when you have zero accountability zero. I mean, anybody, 2:12:22.200 --> 2:12:27.360 this is basic fruit in understanding of psychology one O 2:12:27.480 --> 2:12:31.320 one that if you give someone ultimate power, they're going 2:12:31.400 --> 2:12:35.240 to take advantage. And you know, I don't know what 2:12:35.320 --> 2:12:36.880 to tell you, man. I feel bad for the people 2:12:36.880 --> 2:12:40.600 in that attention because you know, I'm not saying they're 2:12:40.600 --> 2:12:43.200 being tortured, but it's just a you know, the little 2:12:43.280 --> 2:12:45.520 drops of water on your head, Yeah, you know, the 2:12:45.560 --> 2:12:48.360 little you know, after a while you can turns up. 2:12:48.520 --> 2:12:51.000 So there's one guy from Russia that was there for 2:12:51.040 --> 2:12:54.520 three weeks, wow, three weeks. There's one guy from Brazil 2:12:54.560 --> 2:12:57.240 that was there for a week. Come on, man, I 2:12:57.280 --> 2:12:59.360 mean seriously, like that's too much. 2:12:59.680 --> 2:13:03.080 Yes, much, So that's crazy. 2:13:03.120 --> 2:13:05.680 You know, that was horrific. And then when I was leaving, 2:13:06.440 --> 2:13:09.520 uh I found out that they put the wrong address 2:13:10.040 --> 2:13:12.800 on my release form. And you know, I don't know 2:13:12.840 --> 2:13:16.200 if you know anything about the US immigration bureaucracy, James, 2:13:16.560 --> 2:13:19.720 it is horrific. It is horrific. All it takes is 2:13:19.720 --> 2:13:22.040 the one the wrong digit in the address. They send 2:13:22.040 --> 2:13:23.920 the paperwork to the wrong address. Oh, we did it, 2:13:24.000 --> 2:13:25.920 we sent it. We don't care. We don't care, you 2:13:25.960 --> 2:13:27.720 know what I mean. And then you're basically waiting all 2:13:27.760 --> 2:13:29.920 your life. And then that's pretty much what happened to 2:13:30.000 --> 2:13:32.000 me before when I was in the United States. And 2:13:32.000 --> 2:13:33.920 then you know, they don't care always to take it 2:13:33.960 --> 2:13:36.960 up with the with the US postal postal service. Are 2:13:37.000 --> 2:13:38.720 you serious, Like you know you're going to put someone 2:13:38.760 --> 2:13:40.680 in jail and because he sent them the wrong address. 2:13:41.000 --> 2:13:44.520 Anyhow so, anyhow so I came back from the bus. 2:13:44.640 --> 2:13:47.120 The bus is loaded, we're leaving. I came back to the. 2:13:47.160 --> 2:13:49.080 Look you got you know, you got the wrong address here? 2:13:49.080 --> 2:13:51.240 Like you know, what's going on? Do you want to leave? 2:13:51.280 --> 2:13:52.520 What do you want to stay? Do you want to leave? 2:13:52.760 --> 2:13:55.160 That's all that's all they talked about. It's like a 2:13:55.200 --> 2:13:58.000 favor she's doing. It's not like a law thing. It's 2:13:58.040 --> 2:14:01.040 not the produe process. No, no, I'd be more than 2:14:01.080 --> 2:14:03.160 happy to stick you in there because you complain about it. 2:14:04.120 --> 2:14:06.320 A mistake that we made on your on your form. 2:14:07.640 --> 2:14:13.640 It's just yeah, the whole thing. It's just just don't 2:14:13.680 --> 2:14:16.680 need to make it as cruel and as hard and lit. 2:14:16.800 --> 2:14:22.000 People of people have died in the outdoor attention in 2:14:22.080 --> 2:14:24.760 another site, not the place where you were in San Diego, 2:14:24.920 --> 2:14:28.400 right like, And it's a tragedy and it it doesn't 2:14:28.400 --> 2:14:31.040 have to happen, and it doesn't have to be disandignified. 2:14:31.320 --> 2:14:35.160 And yeah, I didn't. I think maybe people will have 2:14:35.200 --> 2:14:40.480 disagreements about the immigration, the different immigration laws, and they 2:14:40.520 --> 2:14:42.560 might feel differently to the way I do what you do, 2:14:43.280 --> 2:14:46.440 David do. But I don't think anyone in their right 2:14:46.480 --> 2:14:49.360 mind would really justify the way you've been treated. And 2:14:50.000 --> 2:14:53.760 you can multiply that by thousands, right, and you're fortunate 2:14:54.120 --> 2:14:58.040 enough to be in relatively good health and not too 2:14:58.080 --> 2:15:00.840 young or not too old or to sick for this 2:15:00.880 --> 2:15:04.360 to be a deadly trip or right. And still it's 2:15:04.400 --> 2:15:06.680 obviously had a massive effect on you. And I can 2:15:07.280 --> 2:15:09.320 understand why, I mean, I'm. 2:15:09.160 --> 2:15:11.600 Having a little bit of nightmares against with you, because 2:15:12.080 --> 2:15:15.320 what bugs me the most is those kids. Uh. And 2:15:15.360 --> 2:15:19.120 then on top of it, it's overwhelming because I was 2:15:19.160 --> 2:15:22.240 thrust in a position where sadly, I mean, I had 2:15:22.280 --> 2:15:26.440 to pick up for a lot of people. I mean, 2:15:26.480 --> 2:15:29.880 you know, yes, it's my family tragedy, I mean is 2:15:29.920 --> 2:15:32.520 an issue. But I mean, you know, I don't want 2:15:32.520 --> 2:15:34.839 to talk too much about what I did in Tunisia, 2:15:34.840 --> 2:15:37.839 but I was standing up against corruption and against bribery 2:15:37.840 --> 2:15:40.040 and things like that, and that costed me a lot 2:15:40.080 --> 2:15:42.840 of problems. And it cost me, I mean, being in 2:15:42.920 --> 2:15:48.440 a blacklist in a government that's ever going negatively. 2:15:49.280 --> 2:15:53.520 You know, I'm jailing activists and jailing for speech. 2:15:53.960 --> 2:15:56.840 It said that that Tunisia, the home of the art 2:15:56.880 --> 2:16:00.360 of spring now is turning into another dictator ships sadly. 2:16:00.960 --> 2:16:04.000 So you know, I didn't want to use that as 2:16:04.000 --> 2:16:06.520 a reason, but I mean it is what ruined my 2:16:06.880 --> 2:16:11.720 personal life because I was constantlyating, you know, harassed and 2:16:11.720 --> 2:16:16.520 and pushed and shopped by Tunesian you know, ay holes. 2:16:17.200 --> 2:16:20.560 Uh And then here I am to find myself and 2:16:20.760 --> 2:16:23.880 you know, like with a Dijah who kind of feeling 2:16:24.680 --> 2:16:29.560 well with these gratuities themselves for nothing, so that that 2:16:29.640 --> 2:16:33.480 kind of triggered me a lot, big time, James, and 2:16:33.600 --> 2:16:36.800 uh uh. And then I felt like, you know, what 2:16:36.959 --> 2:16:38.760 is life worth? I mean, I know I'm coming from 2:16:38.800 --> 2:16:42.000 my kids there, the love of my life, and and 2:16:42.000 --> 2:16:46.280 then my wife as well, but you know, I want 2:16:46.320 --> 2:16:48.720 them to remember their dad as someone who sticks up 2:16:48.760 --> 2:16:55.760 for fathers and you know, the you know, James, the 2:16:56.240 --> 2:17:03.440 the most difficult part were was David mentioned the Persian 2:17:03.480 --> 2:17:09.320 guys running guys. You know, I got annoyed a little bit, James, 2:17:09.360 --> 2:17:13.119 because they were really lining up behind me and holding 2:17:13.120 --> 2:17:17.320 my hand, begging me to help them get out. Yeah, 2:17:18.000 --> 2:17:18.800 and because I'm. 2:17:18.640 --> 2:17:20.760 The only one that spoke the language, and it felt 2:17:20.800 --> 2:17:24.040 like you know, they didn't have any recourse and the 2:17:24.120 --> 2:17:29.120 detention center, I'm not gonna let you, James, that was 2:17:29.280 --> 2:17:29.880 very difficult. 2:17:31.640 --> 2:17:34.600 It was very difficult. That was very I felt like 2:17:34.680 --> 2:17:40.760 when I was leaving, I was leaving friends, brothers, brothers behind, 2:17:41.120 --> 2:17:45.480 and that stuck with me. Dude, Yeah, it's just a 2:17:46.360 --> 2:17:51.760 few people specifically that really really really really was stuck 2:17:51.800 --> 2:17:52.039 on me. 2:17:52.920 --> 2:18:00.280 And uh, this is uh what is this world war? 2:18:00.400 --> 2:18:03.880 What are we doing all this war? There's a genuine 2:18:04.080 --> 2:18:08.240 decent human beings. This country needs as many workers and 2:18:08.320 --> 2:18:12.959 as many new citizens as possible. Instead of just shoving 2:18:13.000 --> 2:18:16.760 these people with hatred, just align them, just give them 2:18:16.760 --> 2:18:20.080 a chance, just rehab, just kind of make sure they 2:18:20.120 --> 2:18:22.080 know the languages, they do all this and be good. 2:18:22.520 --> 2:18:25.000 They all want to work, they all want to be good. 2:18:25.360 --> 2:18:28.279 Nobody that I met there is into drugs or anything. 2:18:28.879 --> 2:18:32.360 You know. It's just it sucks because it's not it's 2:18:32.360 --> 2:18:34.800 not shooting you yourself on the foot. 2:18:36.000 --> 2:18:41.400 It doesn't make sense. And I really felt really sad, 2:18:42.640 --> 2:18:44.760 and on a on a lighter. 2:18:44.520 --> 2:18:48.280 Note, getting into eventually released and getting on the bus 2:18:48.320 --> 2:18:55.039 and going to the central uh the central Elementary, I 2:18:55.080 --> 2:18:59.400 believe in school, and I just got out of the 2:18:59.440 --> 2:19:06.440 bus and I can hear the voices everybody's calling, and 2:19:06.480 --> 2:19:09.800 I'm like, it's getting dark and I can't see I 2:19:09.800 --> 2:19:14.600 can't see the people. But I found like at least 2:19:14.640 --> 2:19:17.560 twenty or eighteen people that I that were with me 2:19:17.720 --> 2:19:20.880 there and they were like they were crying and they 2:19:20.879 --> 2:19:23.800 were like thank you, thank you, thank you, and uh, 2:19:24.440 --> 2:19:26.760 you know it was it was. It was really hard warming. 2:19:27.200 --> 2:19:30.959 It really was really hard warman. And I appreciate that 2:19:31.040 --> 2:19:34.160 the that they recognized what we did. We tried to 2:19:34.160 --> 2:19:42.160 do a bunch of more Italians, Colombians, Mexicans, Ecuadorians, uh, 2:19:42.920 --> 2:19:47.039 I mean, you name it. It was just a Turkish, uh An, 2:19:47.040 --> 2:19:51.440 older gentleman, Iranian, the Iranians, the same Iranians that that 2:19:51.440 --> 2:19:53.720 that that I helped get onto the bus from from 2:19:53.760 --> 2:19:57.560 Willow the same guys. Eventually all I found them central 2:19:58.240 --> 2:20:02.320 and it was really nice to see them and for 2:20:02.400 --> 2:20:06.120 them to just literally jump on me almost and tell 2:20:06.160 --> 2:20:08.520 me thank you in so many languages. 2:20:08.680 --> 2:20:13.199 I appreciate that. So I just hope all this, this, 2:20:13.200 --> 2:20:17.200 this this kind of get somewhere where they understand that. 2:20:19.000 --> 2:20:21.040 It doesn't have to be this way. It really doesn't 2:20:21.080 --> 2:20:23.320 and we're not asking I'm not asking. 2:20:23.920 --> 2:20:26.280 Either get more people or do this. 2:20:26.360 --> 2:20:30.000 I'm just saying there is little tweaks that are not 2:20:30.160 --> 2:20:35.160 meant to increase the integration or or make it impossible 2:20:35.240 --> 2:20:37.760 or anything. It's just little tweaks to, you. 2:20:37.720 --> 2:20:39.320 Know, to get this system a little better. 2:20:39.400 --> 2:20:41.640 That's all. That's all I'm saying personally. 2:20:42.000 --> 2:20:45.320 Yeah, make it a little kinder. And I think like 2:20:45.400 --> 2:20:48.080 it's always that way, right, Like it's people helping each other, 2:20:48.160 --> 2:20:50.440 even when the government doesn't help them, and. 2:20:50.560 --> 2:20:52.760 Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 2:20:52.959 --> 2:20:55.680 We just got use. I was there yesterday that that 2:20:55.800 --> 2:20:58.240 all the shelters at one of the sites were torn down, 2:20:58.320 --> 2:21:01.840 so like it's we'll have to go back and build 2:21:01.879 --> 2:21:06.160 them again. But yeah, yeah, people will because I think 2:21:06.200 --> 2:21:08.160 we all, at least or of us here, I think 2:21:08.240 --> 2:21:11.080 people should be treated with dignity and that they deserve 2:21:11.080 --> 2:21:15.320 a little better than their being given currently. And have 2:21:15.400 --> 2:21:17.720 you been able to reunite with your your children yet 2:21:17.760 --> 2:21:19.200 or is that so in your future? 2:21:20.240 --> 2:21:25.360 Yes, it's it's uh, technically on Thursday, suppose you're not 2:21:25.480 --> 2:21:29.120 with them. I am getting there on steps. I'm financially 2:21:29.200 --> 2:21:32.640 not viable right now. I'm relying on some friends to 2:21:33.520 --> 2:21:36.560 who got me up to Los Angeles right now, and 2:21:36.600 --> 2:21:41.879 then we're collecting money for guests and uh, my wife 2:21:41.920 --> 2:21:45.640 Lauren will be coming down on Thursday with the kids 2:21:45.640 --> 2:21:48.600 and then we're gonna go to her mom's in Lancaster 2:21:49.160 --> 2:21:52.119 for a Christmas party that she does, and then from 2:21:52.160 --> 2:21:55.199 there we'll make it back up to Pisonal and Insal. 2:21:56.400 --> 2:22:02.920 My wife was sheltering in but the house is overcrowded 2:22:03.000 --> 2:22:05.680 and there's no way I can stay there, so I'll 2:22:05.680 --> 2:22:09.120 be That's something that I'm trying to figure out and 2:22:09.280 --> 2:22:12.160 where to stay. And I don't have friends up there 2:22:12.200 --> 2:22:15.800 and don't have anything. Uh, so that's it's a problem 2:22:15.840 --> 2:22:18.160 that I'm having to deal with. And at the same time, 2:22:18.560 --> 2:22:22.600 I was given April twelve as a court date and 2:22:23.000 --> 2:22:26.520 nice and I have to deal with a lawyer and 2:22:26.600 --> 2:22:30.959 the contact the lawyers, and they're expensive. The Progonal lawyers 2:22:31.000 --> 2:22:35.280 that we called h they don't take they're not taking 2:22:35.280 --> 2:22:35.880 new cases. 2:22:37.040 --> 2:22:38.039 So it's. 2:22:39.400 --> 2:22:41.920 I knew it was going to be difficult, but when 2:22:41.959 --> 2:22:45.080 you're in it and it's uh, you think that will 2:22:45.160 --> 2:22:48.120 be kind of a little better. But it's definitely not 2:22:48.760 --> 2:22:52.680 looking good. But you know, it'll be close to my 2:22:52.840 --> 2:22:56.840 kids somehow, and that's what matters to me. But it's 2:22:56.920 --> 2:23:00.640 just a struggle. I was a Congressmanship of Plase. I mean, 2:23:00.680 --> 2:23:03.120 what kind of resources you have for immigrants. I just 2:23:03.160 --> 2:23:05.880 need a little bit of a you know, start, so 2:23:05.920 --> 2:23:08.959 I can get back on my feet. And I kept 2:23:08.959 --> 2:23:13.240 them in touch since I was in Africa through the trip. 2:23:14.120 --> 2:23:19.600 They're the only congress office that at least interacted with us, 2:23:20.320 --> 2:23:23.360 me and my wife. But you know, she looked at 2:23:23.400 --> 2:23:26.480 me from from behind the glass door and she said 2:23:26.760 --> 2:23:33.440 good luck. She sent me the county Immigrant Affairs office, uh, 2:23:34.320 --> 2:23:36.720 you know, linked and she told me good luck, and 2:23:36.760 --> 2:23:39.400 then uh and said bye bye. And that's all that 2:23:39.560 --> 2:23:46.960 she did. So it's uh, it's tiring and not giving up, 2:23:46.959 --> 2:23:51.119 of course, but it's just it's very difficult change. 2:23:51.560 --> 2:23:55.720 Yeah, no, it's yeah, it shouldn't be this hard. It's complicated, 2:23:55.959 --> 2:23:59.640 or this taxing, especially in your family here already. 2:24:00.160 --> 2:24:01.960 I'm just trying to be I don't. I mean, my 2:24:02.000 --> 2:24:05.400 wife is on welfare and they keep cutting her welfare 2:24:05.920 --> 2:24:09.520 smaller and smaller, just you know, two kids. I just 2:24:09.560 --> 2:24:11.840 need a chance to get up the back on my 2:24:11.879 --> 2:24:14.400 feet and be a good father to work, and I 2:24:14.440 --> 2:24:17.000 can't work right now. I'm not allowed to work. Yeah, 2:24:17.480 --> 2:24:20.279 and I have to find money, money for the lawyer. 2:24:20.280 --> 2:24:23.200 I have to find money for me and my kids. 2:24:23.400 --> 2:24:27.039 It's really quite a humbling experience. 2:24:27.040 --> 2:24:29.560 And I know I don't want to rely on anybody, 2:24:29.560 --> 2:24:32.359 but I mean, it's just it's just it's hard. It's hard. 2:24:32.760 --> 2:24:34.560 Yeah, no, it is. And like I don't know how 2:24:34.560 --> 2:24:36.800 people are expected to pay for the legal representation and 2:24:36.879 --> 2:24:40.800 they're also expected not to work. It's just it's a 2:24:40.840 --> 2:24:44.160 system that seems to design to be as cruel and 2:24:44.160 --> 2:24:45.320 complicated as possible. 2:24:46.240 --> 2:24:50.760 Yet you know, the jobs are available. The jobs are available, James. 2:24:51.000 --> 2:24:54.240 I mean I contacted about four or five places. My 2:24:55.200 --> 2:25:01.520 previous work experience in LA and California was logistics and 2:25:01.600 --> 2:25:04.480 parental and stuff like that. I told my previous bosses. 2:25:04.520 --> 2:25:06.680 They all told me to come over, you know, get 2:25:06.680 --> 2:25:08.600 your steps up figured out, and come over. We'll find 2:25:08.600 --> 2:25:12.040 a job. So we have plenty of vacancies, basically, I mean, 2:25:12.080 --> 2:25:18.200 you know, so, uh, but you know here, you are here, 2:25:18.240 --> 2:25:20.520 you are there. Yeah. 2:25:20.600 --> 2:25:25.440 Man, it's it's I've heard so many of these stories, 2:25:25.480 --> 2:25:28.320 but and then stop upsetting me. And I'm glad in 2:25:28.360 --> 2:25:31.240 a way because you know they're bad and they shouldn't. 2:25:31.840 --> 2:25:33.879 They should be upsetting to everyone who is and I'm 2:25:33.920 --> 2:25:37.320 sure everyone who is this will want to do whatever 2:25:37.320 --> 2:25:40.080 they can to make this little easier. Are there like 2:25:40.120 --> 2:25:43.840 any orcs or nonprofits that have been helping you since 2:25:43.840 --> 2:25:46.600 you've got in the US that you think people should Oh? 2:25:46.680 --> 2:25:48.360 Man, nothing, nothing. 2:25:48.520 --> 2:25:51.560 I mean it's been you know, those who call. 2:25:52.920 --> 2:25:56.320 Very centric as far as Asian Americans or this or 2:25:56.360 --> 2:25:58.320 that is very specific. 2:25:59.040 --> 2:26:05.800 But yeah, migrants of everyone, it's I'm telling you no joke. 2:26:06.120 --> 2:26:08.039 And if you're a father trying to make it to 2:26:08.040 --> 2:26:10.200 your kids and trying to you know what I mean, 2:26:10.320 --> 2:26:15.240 do right by your kids doesn't mean anything, nothing, absolutely nothing. 2:26:16.320 --> 2:26:17.640 So that's terrible. 2:26:17.720 --> 2:26:17.879 Man. 2:26:18.280 --> 2:26:22.800 Yeah, this is the first Christmas for This is the 2:26:22.800 --> 2:26:25.480 first Christmas for the kids outside of their where they 2:26:25.480 --> 2:26:30.400 grew up. I really wanted to make it as family 2:26:30.440 --> 2:26:34.080 friendly and happy as possible, but I don't even have 2:26:34.360 --> 2:26:38.120 the capacity to give them gifts or anything or or 2:26:38.520 --> 2:26:43.280 even I don't know. This is gonna be hard, Yeah man, 2:26:43.440 --> 2:26:43.760 it is. 2:26:43.879 --> 2:26:49.280 Yeah, yeah, man, sorry, that's I know, that's okay. 2:26:49.400 --> 2:26:52.680 I mean, I'm just I'm just a drop in an 2:26:52.680 --> 2:26:56.480 ocean of of of despair when it comes to immigrants, 2:26:56.480 --> 2:27:00.959 and I'm getting messages from some of them in New York, 2:27:01.160 --> 2:27:04.320 some of them in UH, North Carolina, some of them 2:27:04.360 --> 2:27:09.920 in UH and in Illinois, UH, a couple in California. 2:27:11.360 --> 2:27:14.480 I mean, they're they're still desperate for for health and 2:27:14.879 --> 2:27:20.080 especially with language and all that. So you know, I'm grinding, 2:27:20.160 --> 2:27:21.800 and I mean they're doing the best I can. But 2:27:24.200 --> 2:27:27.039 you know it's a reality check. It's a reality check joke. 2:27:27.600 --> 2:27:31.200 Yeah, no, it's it's it's really. I mean, it's sickening 2:27:31.200 --> 2:27:33.720 how quickly you can be and cut out and nothing 2:27:33.800 --> 2:27:36.959 when the state doesn't care about you. But I want 2:27:37.000 --> 2:27:38.800 to thank you so much for giving us your story 2:27:38.840 --> 2:27:41.480 and your time and being so open with us, because 2:27:42.160 --> 2:27:44.160 I think that's the only way that this stuff changes, 2:27:44.280 --> 2:27:48.400 is that people here Like number numbers are great and 2:27:48.400 --> 2:27:51.640 and your story is one of tens of thousands, but 2:27:51.720 --> 2:27:54.320 I think sometimes we need to hear individual stories to 2:27:54.400 --> 2:27:59.000 understand the human impact of this true, true, true, and 2:27:59.080 --> 2:28:03.199 like we'll stay in You have my friend number. Anything 2:28:03.240 --> 2:28:04.480 you need, anything we can do for you. 2:28:04.800 --> 2:28:06.760 Yeah, I mean I can't. I can't wait to come 2:28:06.800 --> 2:28:07.560 down to the border. 2:28:07.560 --> 2:28:09.879 I'm not giving up on the border, dude, I'm not 2:28:10.080 --> 2:28:12.920 I want to bring at some point my kids to 2:28:12.959 --> 2:28:17.320 see the price, and then I want to contribute. I 2:28:17.320 --> 2:28:19.160 want to find a way to give back. I want to. 2:28:19.760 --> 2:28:21.280 I know I can't do it right now, but I 2:28:21.360 --> 2:28:24.119 send my mom in my mind, and I know I'm 2:28:24.160 --> 2:28:25.640 not going to give up on that, on that on 2:28:25.720 --> 2:28:28.280 that dream of coming back there and continue to help 2:28:28.640 --> 2:28:29.640 with the volunteers. 2:28:29.760 --> 2:28:32.400 That's very kind of Yeah, well when you come down 2:28:32.440 --> 2:28:34.320 that me know, bring some ray tools and we can 2:28:34.520 --> 2:28:37.000 we can build some sounds. 2:28:36.680 --> 2:28:38.879 Good sounds, good fun. 2:28:39.040 --> 2:28:41.680 I mean, so I'm just like I'm just for processing. 2:28:42.360 --> 2:28:43.840 Yeah, me too, for processing this. 2:28:43.959 --> 2:28:47.920 And like hearing Amos say all this is like fuck, 2:28:48.000 --> 2:28:50.440 Like that's that's the conversation, right just with what he's 2:28:50.440 --> 2:28:53.600 saying in his accountability is human nature, like something in 2:28:53.640 --> 2:28:55.200 the way that he was saying that, I was just 2:28:55.240 --> 2:28:57.320 like taking a piles on everything that I want to 2:28:57.320 --> 2:29:01.600 just share because I really like it hit to the 2:29:01.640 --> 2:29:05.120 core of that. Like my own frustration with our response 2:29:05.240 --> 2:29:08.480 is it's not getting to the point that like what 2:29:08.560 --> 2:29:10.240 he was what he was saying any other words right 2:29:10.240 --> 2:29:12.560 now to say that my mind is now totally much. 2:29:13.640 --> 2:29:16.400 Well ended there. I do want to give both of 2:29:16.440 --> 2:29:21.520 you a chance to plug any and all organizations so 2:29:21.640 --> 2:29:24.440 you think can help. And because the people will get 2:29:24.440 --> 2:29:26.279 to listen to this, we'll break up to two parks. 2:29:27.600 --> 2:29:30.480 People will want to alleviate the suffering, and there are people, 2:29:30.879 --> 2:29:35.200 including yourselves and myself, trying to do that. So if 2:29:35.240 --> 2:29:37.720 there's an organization that you'd like to plug, fundraiser you'd 2:29:37.720 --> 2:29:39.560 like to plug, please do well. 2:29:39.720 --> 2:29:44.400 Just the way the conversation ended, the thing that I 2:29:44.480 --> 2:29:49.039 was thinking is you know, just a you know, anybody 2:29:49.320 --> 2:29:54.920 listening to the to what Amos has said, just one 2:29:55.720 --> 2:30:02.359 one very small but perhaps meaningful thing would be to 2:30:02.400 --> 2:30:05.680 do something to enable him to buy some presents for 2:30:05.760 --> 2:30:08.320 his kids. I think that would be pretty cool. 2:30:10.160 --> 2:30:13.320 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 2:30:13.400 --> 2:30:15.320 from now until the heat death of the universe. 2:30:15.879 --> 2:30:18.400 It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 2:30:18.480 --> 2:30:21.120 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 2:30:21.200 --> 2:30:23.400 cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 2:30:23.440 --> 2:30:27.000 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 2:30:27.280 --> 2:30:29.400 You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 2:30:29.480 --> 2:30:32.560 monthly at Coolzonmedia dot com slash sources. 2:30:32.680 --> 2:30:33.520 Thanks for listening,