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Speaker 1: All media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's got to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Dickodapton here a podcast, and we are recording

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Speaker 3: for the first time. All of the audio worked perfectly.

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Speaker 3: It was great. Yeah, the society that has put multiple

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Speaker 3: human beings on the moon did successfully produce functioning audio software.

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Speaker 3: It's wonderful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: With me to celebrate this is Carl Eugene Stroud. He's

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Speaker 3: a language teacher and anarchist Builtin's and read angles, who's

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Speaker 3: a bus driver and an anarchist, member of the Center

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Speaker 3: for Specific Studies. Yeah, both of you. Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having us.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you for having us for this wonderful celebration

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Speaker 5: of audio recording technology.

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Speaker 3: It's all great, it's all wonderful. Speaking of things that

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Speaker 3: are wonderful, this is this is this is why they

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Speaker 3: pay me the am I legally allowed to say that

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Speaker 3: it's a below market rate. That's why they paid me

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Speaker 3: the slightly below market rate bucks. Yeah, So, speaking of wonderful,

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Speaker 3: we are here to talk about a I guess putting

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Speaker 3: things back together project, which is Miltant Kindergarten. And I

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Speaker 3: guess I guess we should start with talking about what

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Speaker 3: Billetant Kindergarten is and what it isn't in terms of, like,

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Speaker 3: it's not we're teaching we're teaching small children how to

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Speaker 3: take apart buildings.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so Milton Kindergarten is a multi month study of

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Speaker 4: a text, and in that way, you know, we call

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Speaker 4: it a seminar, but it's not that much different than

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Speaker 4: reading group or study circle or any of those kinds

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Speaker 4: of things. Essentially, what we're doing is we're using one

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Speaker 4: text to revisit and have conversations with different people that

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Speaker 4: are at various you know, points in a path of radicalization.

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Speaker 4: We're you know, distinctly trying to spread the word about

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Speaker 4: the importance and necessity of militancy in our movements, but

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Speaker 4: also teach people about a specifismo, which is an anarchist

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Speaker 4: current that comes out of Latin America. But it's also

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Speaker 4: like you know, in in the socialist movement, anarchists can

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Speaker 4: often be characterized by stereotypes that come from Marxists, and

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Speaker 4: that in the libertarian and anarchist movement, any kind of

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Speaker 4: mass anarchism, any kind of class struggle anarchism can also

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Speaker 4: be characterized by you know, individualists and insurrectionists. And so

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Speaker 4: we mean to you know, not convert people to a

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Speaker 4: certain current of anarchism. We see this as a kind

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Speaker 4: of grouping of tendency. So all the participants come from

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Speaker 4: different ideologies. This is just a reading group, so you've

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Speaker 4: got to apply this stuff, you know, outside of this.

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Speaker 4: This isn't some kind of be all and dull solution.

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Speaker 4: We're not, you know, educationalists thinking that this is going

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Speaker 4: to be the first step in some like process that

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Speaker 4: we're just already on. But at the same time, we

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Speaker 4: think that educational space needs to be defended. That's why

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Speaker 4: this is the third militant kindergarten. So, yeah, maybe i'll

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Speaker 4: let read talk about some of the ones and how

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Speaker 4: we've gotten here and yeah, kindergarten up to now.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, sure, I think that's a good explanation. The group

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Speaker 5: basically started off in the wonderful, amazing, complicated year twenty

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Speaker 5: twenty in the wake of the uprising over the summer.

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Speaker 5: Both of us live in a relatively small down with

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Speaker 5: maybe an outsized hundreds above its weight. In terms of

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Speaker 5: like activism and anarchism, there's probably more anarchist tendencies here

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Speaker 5: than there are anarchists, And something that we saw in

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Speaker 5: the wake of the height of the uprising was one

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Speaker 5: a huge amount of burnout that people weren't really addressing.

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Speaker 5: The solution to burnout that we saw being proposed was

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Speaker 5: just do it again, more harder, And we also saw

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Speaker 5: the burnout as kind of coming from a lack of

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Speaker 5: strategy and organization on the ground, people sort of repeating

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Speaker 5: tactics because that's what you do, and that's what we

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Speaker 5: were doing, so we're just going to try to keep

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Speaker 5: doing it. And both of us were unable to participate

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Speaker 5: in the more aggressive street actions that were going on

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Speaker 5: at the time, so we decided we individually needed to

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Speaker 5: study and get better at our understanding of strategy an

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Speaker 5: organization and try to rethink like some of the problems

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Speaker 5: that had occurred and how to move on from there,

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Speaker 5: and also to provide a space for people who were

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Speaker 5: more active in different places, the chance to meet together

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Speaker 5: and reflect in a non non urgent space where you

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Speaker 5: could just like pause and learn and discuss the topic.

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Speaker 5: So we were, yeah, we hit upon We were both

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Speaker 5: kind of simultaneously interested in the spess of seasonal current

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Speaker 5: from Latin America, so we both just kind of decided, yeah,

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Speaker 5: we want to read some of these texts, and we

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Speaker 5: quickly came upon social anarchism an organization. We thought, like, wow,

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Speaker 5: this is a really comprehensive introduction not only to this

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Speaker 5: tendency but also to anarchism and social anarchism broadly. Like

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Speaker 5: it really covers just the basics, principles and theory up

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Speaker 5: to history and organizational theory, strategy, tactics, ideology in a

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Speaker 5: much higher, more sophisticated and like i guess, like modernized

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Speaker 5: way than many other previous documents we'd read. It's like,

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Speaker 5: if you took the platform, you know, the Maximvist platform.

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Speaker 3: We should explain what that is because people are not

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Speaker 3: going to yeah, okay, going back.

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Speaker 5: So it's it's the organizational platform of the Anarchist Federation

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Speaker 5: of Riodaian Hero which is basically their foundational document, and

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Speaker 5: it's a very comprehensive look at the kind of theory

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Speaker 5: and strategy and work that goes behind goes on behind

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Speaker 5: founding an organization like that. It's similar to the anarchist

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Speaker 5: platform written by the X, the Magnavist in exile in Paris,

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Speaker 5: the Ukrainian anarchists in exile after the revolution in Russia.

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Speaker 5: They wrote this platform saying anarchists should maybe be somewhat

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Speaker 5: organized and unified in their tactics and their strategies, and

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Speaker 5: received a whole bunch of pushback from it, but founded

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Speaker 5: The sort of the platform is current of anarchism. But really,

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Speaker 5: when you go back to the platform, there's not a

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Speaker 5: ton there. It's more of a document for organizing a

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Speaker 5: like a military force in a already ongoing revolution, Whereas

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Speaker 5: what we found in Social Anarchism and Organization is a

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Speaker 5: much more road kind of introduction to social anarchist organization

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Speaker 5: that is more widely applicable to a variety of situations.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, Okay, so we've covered a spacifistmo

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Speaker 3: on here with Andrew once. I think we've talked about

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Speaker 3: it a little bit in some other episodes. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: do we want to get into what what about a

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Speaker 3: specifiespo is sort of different from older kinds of like well,

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Speaker 3: just like other anarchist tendencies and other sort of kinds

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Speaker 3: of platformism, and talk a little bit about how it

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Speaker 3: sort of came about because it's one of the tendencies

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Speaker 3: I guess that some people adopted in the US, but

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Speaker 3: I don't. I don't think it's as famous as a

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Speaker 3: lot of other tendencies here.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so you know, a lot of the motivation behind

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Speaker 4: organizing the Center for US Specifiesmo studies. This came after

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Speaker 4: us studying this text a few times. We decided to

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Speaker 4: formalize this into militant Kindergarten, and a lot of that

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Speaker 4: came from the need to articulate what is a specifismo

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Speaker 4: in English. Because a lot of the resources, a lot

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Speaker 4: of the ideas and writings come from Latin America, and

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Speaker 4: so they're written in Spanish. A lot of the theory

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Speaker 4: has been developed in Spanish. Espacifismo originally comes from the

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Speaker 4: Anarchist Federation of Uruguay. In the nineteen sixties. They began

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Speaker 4: to articulate a kind of organizational strategy that imagined what

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Speaker 4: the way we've described it is kind of two rails

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Speaker 4: for a train, and this train is bringing this revolutionary rupture.

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Speaker 4: So these two rails are the social level, which includes

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Speaker 4: all kinds of class struggle. This is class struggle against domination, exploitation,

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Speaker 4: and a press.

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Speaker 3: And that the other rail is.

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Speaker 4: The political organization. And so this is the anarchist principles

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Speaker 4: and ideologies that, yeah, I think we share probably pretty

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Speaker 4: broadly with most all anarchist currents, at least you know,

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Speaker 4: coming out of the socialist movement. But when it comes

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Speaker 4: to the way to balance these and to keep them

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Speaker 4: both working towards the same ends, we see a need

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Speaker 4: to keep them theoretically distinct. And so a lot of

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Speaker 4: what we've done at the Center forres Becifismo Studies is

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Speaker 4: try to articulate these ideas in English so that we

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Speaker 4: can start to develop what that means here and not

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Speaker 4: just sort of translate or take a translation and sort

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Speaker 4: of try to input an idea into our own context. So,

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Speaker 4: like you said, like I think at some of the

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Speaker 4: we could we could take for example, the Black Rose

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Speaker 4: Rosa Negra anarchist federation in the US that's the largest

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Speaker 4: organization of a specificst anarchists in North America. They are

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Speaker 4: distinctly influenced by this current. They have sister organizations in

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Speaker 4: Latin America and but but they're they're just one kind

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Speaker 4: of organization that's that's kind of known on a national level.

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Speaker 4: And as far as planting its, you know, ideas in

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Speaker 4: North America, we're definitely still doing that work. So a

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Speaker 4: lot of what we've done is also developed second secondary resources.

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Speaker 4: This includes like audio versions of this text, but also

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Speaker 4: like things we've produced through our study and through these

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Speaker 4: discussions that come out of kindergarten. So last year, for example,

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Speaker 4: we made a a minizine. There was like a kind

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Speaker 4: of working group that worked on a minizine to define

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Speaker 4: some basic terms and make something really really really basic

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Speaker 4: in introductory to a specifismo. We also I've written a

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Speaker 4: few pamphlets, one of which is how do you say

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Speaker 4: a specifismo in English? And so that is yeah, exactly

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Speaker 4: trying to address this this idea. And you know, some

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Speaker 4: people they hear a specifismo and they're like, oh, that's

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Speaker 4: you know, exotic and cool and like new, and that's

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Speaker 4: a reason to be attracted to it. But then you know,

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Speaker 4: other people might hear that, and they have kind of

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Speaker 4: other reactions where they sort of try to put it

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Speaker 4: into a really specific box. I mean, what our understanding

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Speaker 4: is is that it's important to be able to acknowledge

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Speaker 4: what current you're kind of plugging into where your ideas

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Speaker 4: are coming from. It takes a lot of pressure off

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Speaker 4: of us to not feel like we're inventing everything and

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Speaker 4: we're supposed to be coming up with like the most perfect,

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Speaker 4: cool ideas. But it's also a humbling experience of like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: we know about this because other people have done this

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Speaker 4: militancy before us to make these things available for us

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Speaker 4: to have preserved these ideas. That's the political level of

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Speaker 4: the two rails, right, So that's that is preserving this

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Speaker 4: so that it is possible to say I have this

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Speaker 4: opinion about a specifismo and it relates to my context

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Speaker 4: in this way or likewise that it doesn't you know,

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Speaker 4: if we don't have anyone doing that militancy to preserve

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Speaker 4: those ideas, then it's actually not even up to people

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Speaker 4: to be able to pick them up and use them

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Speaker 4: the way that they see fit.

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Speaker 3: One of the sort of barriers is, I think kind

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Speaker 3: of what you're alluding to of like a specifismo as

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Speaker 3: a tendency in the US is that it wasn't like,

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Speaker 3: it wasn't really it wasn't developed in the American context,

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Speaker 3: and that has different sort of you know that that

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Speaker 3: that that has sort of like a range of different effects.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things that I think is very

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Speaker 3: interesting about it that I think is definitely a product

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Speaker 3: of the context that it was developed in, is the

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Speaker 3: strategy of social insertion. Yeah, and I was wondering if

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Speaker 3: you could talk a bit about social insertion and how

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Speaker 3: you see that working in the US and how sort

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Speaker 3: of like, how do we think about this sort of

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Speaker 3: in the wake of twenty twenty and the kind of

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Speaker 3: restructuring of what is what is sort of happening is

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Speaker 3: out of social movements in the US.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think the twenty twenty lesson is very important

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Speaker 5: for thinking about social insertions for anyone who doesn't know.

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Speaker 5: It's just the practice of anarchists who are organized in

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Speaker 5: the same organization being present in social movements within them,

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Speaker 5: supporting them, trying to help them achieve their own goals

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Speaker 5: rather than take them over, or something like you would

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Speaker 5: see in maybe a entryism from trapeists or something but yeah,

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Speaker 5: I think one of the major problems that we ran

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Speaker 5: into when we started reading this stuff is like social

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Speaker 5: insertion requires there to even be social movements.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that was an issue in the US for a

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Speaker 3: long time because we didn't really have social movements in

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Speaker 3: the way that like Latin America does right, or.

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Speaker 5: When we do, they're like extremely spontaneous or kind of chaotic,

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Speaker 5: or they're also there, they could be extremely co opted

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Speaker 5: or managed by a political party Democrats, some socialist groups, Republicans, whoever.

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Speaker 5: And so that's kind of one of our major sort

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Speaker 5: of projects of theoretical translation into North Americas. You can't

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Speaker 5: just plug this into North American and say, Okay, we're

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Speaker 5: going to go join ex social movements to achieve these

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Speaker 5: goals and obtain this amount of influence there and some

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Speaker 5: we really have to start. I think what is useful

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Speaker 5: about that problem is that it forces us to start

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Speaker 5: really trying to theorize what actually is happening here, what

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Speaker 5: social movement actually is there, And that leads us to

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Speaker 5: start thinking about things more literally, like movement, what does

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Speaker 5: it mean to be moving? What is the role of

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Speaker 5: anarchists in movement? So we can think of the idea

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Speaker 5: that we've developed is the idea of anarchists who are

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Speaker 5: organized as anarchists, the role of them in movement is

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Speaker 5: to actually literally be moving between different kinds of spaces,

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Speaker 5: different movements, and starting through their movement to generate a

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Speaker 5: kind of flow of people and of ideas and energy

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Speaker 5: and momentum, acting as a small motor within a big,

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Speaker 5: a big system, if you will, not driving it, but

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Speaker 5: getting things going. And so I think that's kind of

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Speaker 5: more the level that we're here in the US is

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Speaker 5: we still need to just theorize what is out there

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Speaker 5: and how can we help it, how can we plug

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Speaker 5: into it, How can we start getting things moving in

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Speaker 5: a direction that is actually going to meet the needs

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Speaker 5: of these movements, For these movements that aren't yet articulated. Well,

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Speaker 5: you know, you see this with like the rise of

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Speaker 5: tenant unions and tenant organizing still in a very like

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Speaker 5: nascent stage, but people are seeing that need and they're

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Speaker 5: starting to get that moving from a variety of socialist tendencies.

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Speaker 5: And I think, yeah, the idea is important in this

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Speaker 5: context because we have to we have to be finding

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Speaker 5: these spaces, we have to be moving to them, and

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Speaker 5: we have to be returning to our own spaces to

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Speaker 5: be able to actually understand what we're encountering out there

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Speaker 5: and figure out how to such a course or move

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Speaker 5: to something else or adapt to a new situation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Like maybe similar to read said, they're this idea

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Speaker 4: that the politics need to be moving, that anarchism needs

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Speaker 4: to be a movement, and that in that way, like

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Speaker 4: we can't allow our ideas to be stuck in certain

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Speaker 4: you know, just stations or organizations or spaces that are

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Speaker 4: friendly or that we're really familiar with. We need to

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Speaker 4: be able to engage those ideas in the relevant spaces

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Speaker 4: where we do live. That looks really different in different

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Speaker 4: parts across the US and North America. So the idea

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Speaker 4: that you know, we would be able to just simply

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Speaker 4: take one thing and apply it across the board would

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Speaker 4: also like, uh, yeah, be really limited here. And so

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Speaker 4: I think a lot of what we're we're well, a

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Speaker 4: lot of what we've seen in terms of the utility

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Speaker 4: of a specifismo as a as an influential current in

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Speaker 4: the politics in leftist politics in North America. Is this

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Speaker 4: theoretical aspect and how we can see both like we

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Speaker 4: learn more about social movements more about the necessity of

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Speaker 4: them being popular, more about popular power, and at the

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Speaker 4: same time as in doing that, that shows us more

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Speaker 4: about what is political unity, what is uh you know,

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Speaker 4: unity of strategy, what is unity of theory, what is

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Speaker 4: a unity of commitment? And that those things we want

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Speaker 4: to as we keep learning about them individually. That goes

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Speaker 4: back to this trained idea of their being too rails

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Speaker 4: is we need them to be on independent cycles. You know,

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Speaker 4: we know that social movements don't last forever, that mobilizations

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Speaker 4: and you know, insurrections will fade away, that there are

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Speaker 4: ebbs and flows of the engagement, and that when we're

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Speaker 4: talking about a massive popular level, we should expect that

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Speaker 4: even more right, plenty of people will only even if

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Speaker 4: they're engaging militantly, only be engaging militantly with social movements,

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Speaker 4: not with political ideas, not with political organization. And so

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Speaker 4: the idea that something needs to endure someone even needs

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Speaker 4: to be able to tell the story from the last

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Speaker 4: time that things got spicy, so that we understand even

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Speaker 4: what happened without even necessarily having the the critique or

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Speaker 4: the analysis, even just simply the retelling is something that

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Speaker 4: is grossly missing from our struggles in North America, and

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Speaker 4: so that's where we see like there being a complete

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Speaker 4: absence of of political organizing, and especially when we think

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Speaker 4: about being on an entirely different cycle. So that kind

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Speaker 4: of goes back to kindergarten being an annual thing. And

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Speaker 4: you know, where we live, like in the winter, there's

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Speaker 4: not a lot you can do, and so it kind

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Speaker 4: of made sense to develop a seasonal pattern of this,

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Speaker 4: right where like exactly as things are dying down, it's

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Speaker 4: kind of like, well, the people who do still have capacity,

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Speaker 4: the people who are still attempting to be active, how

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Speaker 4: can we keep that little bit of movement moving and going.

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Speaker 4: The idea of the metaphor of a small engine a

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Speaker 4: small motor is often used in aspecifismo, and that's what

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Speaker 4: the political level is trying to be. Is a small

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Speaker 4: motor just assisting in something larger that's happening, but it

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Speaker 4: needs to be connected to something larger that's happening.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think a key part of this for

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Speaker 5: us that we've found is that in our context there

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Speaker 5: exists sort of these two levels to some extent, there

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Speaker 5: are political organizations and there are social movements, but what

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Speaker 5: is often missing, like we were struggling with this, trying

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Speaker 5: to find the way into one or the other. And

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Speaker 5: what we discovered is that like this kind of educational

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Speaker 5: tendency of really open, really educational, really discussion based learning

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Speaker 5: kind of starts to generate that movement between the two.

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Speaker 5: Like by having this space open to beginners and experts,

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Speaker 5: so to speak, you're able to actually get more movements

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Speaker 5: opened between the two. So it opens up political organizations

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Speaker 5: people who have not participated in that before don't have

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Speaker 5: a way into it. And it opens up social movements

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Speaker 5: to people who maybe politicized but are not organized in

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Speaker 5: some sort of social and it starts to mix everything

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Speaker 5: together in this learning space where we can build trust

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Speaker 5: as a learning community and assisting each other in connecting

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Speaker 5: these kind of two necessary levels of organization.

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Speaker 3: I've been thinking a lot about how you were talking

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Speaker 3: about how we don't have any kind of organizational continuity

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Speaker 3: between movements and the kind of disorganization and the loss

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Speaker 3: of just memory that happens with that, And I think

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Speaker 3: it's one of these weird things because you can find

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Speaker 3: people who've been in like all of these movements, but

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Speaker 3: if you're relying on just you know, okay, well you

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Speaker 3: can you can get the story of what really happened

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Speaker 3: in occupy Oakland if you know exactly like the right

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Speaker 3: for people and you can't like you can't say their

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Speaker 3: names because like you know, and I mean this has

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Speaker 3: always sort of been a problem with parts of social

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Speaker 3: movements because I mean there's somef a necessssarily has to

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Speaker 3: be cleandestine, like you know, and there's reasons for operacial security,

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Speaker 3: but also just means the stuff gets lost. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think having having a like having a thing that

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Speaker 3: goes as a way to transmit got thing that goes. Wow,

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Speaker 3: incredibly technical language, you know, but having having an organization

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Speaker 3: that can act as a bridge between these sort of

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Speaker 3: moments and also is able to sort of you know,

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Speaker 3: allow people's spaces for discussions, for reflection, for learning. That's

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Speaker 3: also sort of a bridge between like a like I

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Speaker 3: don't know, I guess like capital p political organization and

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Speaker 3: the social stuff. Is it's a it's a it's a

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Speaker 3: really interesting idea, and yeah, I don't know, I think

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I think I think this is like

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Speaker 3: this is a very cool project, and yeah, I'm looking

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Speaker 3: forward to seeing what else comes out of it as

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Speaker 3: the new session sort of approaches.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think what you're just saying about, like, how

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Speaker 5: do you learn about what happened to occupy oak And

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Speaker 5: without having to go through like three layers of signal

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Speaker 5: chats or something to find the right person to learn

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Speaker 5: from anonymously being as preface with allegedly this happened. Is

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Speaker 5: a real problem that we've thought about. Like, I think

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Speaker 5: a big thing for us that we've found is a

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Speaker 5: role that we can play, is that there is a

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Speaker 5: need out there for there to be some sort of

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Speaker 5: we call it mask off anarchism, like there needs to

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Speaker 5: be a public facing, approachable space where you can actually

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Speaker 5: just learn about stuff. And yeah, there is definitely a

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Speaker 5: need for operational security culture or for clandestine things, but

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Speaker 5: that those things don't need to be everything for those

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Speaker 5: who even exist. You need levels that are more open

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Speaker 5: to people. Otherwise those things just become increased we lost,

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Speaker 5: they go down the memory hole, as they say, or

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Speaker 5: the Latin American groups like to talk about anarchism becoming

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Speaker 5: ghetto wise further and further, like separated from mainstream society,

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Speaker 5: and there's no ways in unless you, like, you know,

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Speaker 5: a guy. So that was something that was a problem

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Speaker 5: we were encountering and something that like from our particular circumstances,

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Speaker 5: we felt like we could provide and maybe start and

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Speaker 5: modeling for people as a group.

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Speaker 4: I think also, like you mentioned there like this idea

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Speaker 4: of memory and what what black Rose has referred to

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Speaker 4: in their program as muscle memory. Like for our organizations,

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Speaker 4: this idea that like, I mean, organizing seems so mysterious

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Speaker 4: to us because we don't have this like kind of active,

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Speaker 4: like uh, living memory of how to do that. It's

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Speaker 4: not just a thing we do by second nature or

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Speaker 4: like without without really needing a lot of work. And

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Speaker 4: so I think in that sense, like we could also

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Speaker 4: think of there being two kinds of struggles going on,

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Speaker 4: where Like on the social level, the struggle is the

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Speaker 4: class struggle and the antagonists are the dominant people in society.

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Speaker 4: It is the ruling class, it is the status quo,

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Speaker 4: it is the capitalist system. But on the political level,

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Speaker 4: there's also struggle because it's not about everybody, you know,

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Speaker 4: just being one uniform block. It is about that struggle though,

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Speaker 4: not being trying to topple each other but instead trying

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Speaker 4: to develop and create unity. It's not find unity, it's

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Speaker 4: not look for the people you have the most consensus with,

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Speaker 4: because that in itself is even really limiting that we

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Speaker 4: need to be able to form new agreement. We need

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Speaker 4: to be able to find and struggle for that unity

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Speaker 4: with people who aren't trying to just aim for a

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Speaker 4: divisive end. That there needs to be an antagonist on

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Speaker 4: the social level, but on the political level, the goal

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Speaker 4: is unity. It's not it's not struggle for the sake

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Speaker 4: of taking down the opponent. And so in that sense,

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Speaker 4: like something else that we do in Militant Kindergarten and

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Speaker 4: in the Center for Us BECIFIESMO studies is not just

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Speaker 4: try to do a reading, but try to produce a reading.

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Speaker 4: Try to leave behind some kind of trace of our reading.

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Speaker 4: That that's an important aspect of this. So all of

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Speaker 4: our sessions we take thorough notes, and those notes are

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Speaker 4: available to all the participants. People can go back through

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Speaker 4: it later to look at what was said if they

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Speaker 4: missed a session, or if they'd like to follow along

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Speaker 4: with those as they as the conversation goes to help

435
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 4: add you know, other aspects of support. Then what we

436
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 4: do is we have a whole other team that goes

437
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 4: through those notes afterward and produces a kind of internal

438
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 4: journalistic writeup of what happened in that meeting, and so

439
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 4: we will also be releasing those this year as part

440
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 4: of our kind of monthly publishing that we'll be.

441
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 3: Doing so for people who are interested in this. When

442
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 3: is it happening and how do you get involved?

443
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,479
Speaker 5: It starts on January thirteenth and it runs till April

444
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,479
Speaker 5: twentieth of next year, twenty twenty four, And we're going

445
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 5: to be holding the session on Saturday two to four

446
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 5: pm in Pacific time US, which is not the greatest

447
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,959
Speaker 5: time for everybody, but it's where most of us are based,

448
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 5: kind of on the edge of time here on the

449
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 5: West coast. And the best way to get involved is

450
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 5: to just send us an email. We have the email

451
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 5: specifies most studies at gmail dot com, and that's the

452
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 5: way to sort of start the enrolling process needs to

453
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 5: take the one step send us an email, and we'll

454
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 5: get you signed up and all the materials and zoom

455
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 5: link and all that stuff.

456
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, and well, we'll put the email in the description

457
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,239
Speaker 3: youah probably links to the website too, I think. On

458
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 3: that note, unless you have anything else that you want

459
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 3: to say or plug no, I think that's it.

460
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, good breath. I would like to see people there.

461
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 5: It's going to be an interesting year. I can guarantee that.

462
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're yeah, like the literal year.

463
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 5: Twenty twenty four. Who knows what's going to happen, And

464
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 5: even kindergarten is going to be pretty interesting. We've had

465
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 5: a lot more people contacting us than last year, so

466
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 5: it's going to be a pretty big and diverse group.

467
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 5: So it'll be interesting to see kind of what everybody's

468
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 5: able to produce out of that gathering and learning space.

469
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, maybe another thing just to say real quick,

470
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 4: is just that even if somebody doesn't feel they could

471
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 4: make that time, it's still worth reaching out to us.

472
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 4: We you know, will be developing other seminars and things

473
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 4: in the future. And if you don't think that you'd

474
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 4: be able to make to all the sessions, like, don't

475
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 4: worry about that either. That's part of why we do

476
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 4: this every year is that we expect that, you know,

477
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 4: working people without a lot of time will need more

478
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 4: than one year to you know, get all this information.

479
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 4: So we expect people to need to kind of be

480
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,719
Speaker 4: cobbling together a few sessions here and there for several times,

481
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 4: and yeah, you're definitely welcome to do that and shouldn't

482
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 4: feel as if it's like a kind of start and

483
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 4: then you're stuck and afraid to start.

484
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 5: So yeah, yeah, it's a sort of an endurance study group.

485
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 5: So yeah, we don't want anyone burning themselves out. Just

486
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 5: do what you can start together and together.

487
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like it's going to be a great program,

488
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 3: and yeah, excited to see what comes out of it.

489
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 3: And yeah, if you want, if if you want to

490
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 3: get your theoretical stuff in before fighting season presumably starts

491
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 3: again around the election. Uh, yeah, now is the time.

492
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 3: It's gonna be really chaotic and for the next like

493
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 3: long time. So this is this is your opportunity. Now.

494
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, we'll need some good ideas to arm ourselves with. Yeah,

495
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 5: this one it's gonna be rough.

496
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: Yep.

497
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 3: And yeah, on that note, this has been naked up

498
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 3: in here. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram,

499
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 3: at fulls on media, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, go go, go,

500
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:44,479
Speaker 3: go into the world and learn and then use that

501
00:32:44,680 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 3: to make the world less gone off. It's it's another

502
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 3: Chicago episode. It's it could happen here, the podcast where

503
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 3: things fall apart. I'm your host, Nea Wong. This is

504
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 3: this is another episode about Chicago police departments who occupy

505
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 3: a city groaning under its tyranny, and with you to

506
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 3: talk about some absolutely bad shit Chicago police stuff and

507
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 3: also how Randon Johnson our mayor is also shit? Is

508
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 3: Raven the Chicago journalist from Jingspress.

509
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 6: Hi is our mayor?

510
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: Ever?

511
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 6: Not shit?

512
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 3: You know, No, it's all shit. It's never not bad.

513
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 1: It's never not bad.

514
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 6: And it's always like, you know, the progressive darling who

515
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 6: ran on promises and then slowly breaks them and you know,

516
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 6: breaks everyone's hearts over time.

517
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I will I will say Johnson wasted absolutely no

518
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 3: time on the heartbreaking part, like he really he really

519
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 3: just wanted to rush that shit out. So there's a

520
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 3: lot of there's a lot of Brandon Johnson stuff that

521
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 3: we could talk about and we will want eventually, we're

522
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 3: gonna do the episode on the bigrant camp in the

523
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 3: fucking the migrant camp and the toxic waste dump, but

524
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 3: that that's gonna happen next year. Right now, we want

525
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 3: to talk about a different utterly insane Chicago thing. Well

526
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 3: it is actually a thing in other cities too. I

527
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 3: wanted to talk about shot Spotter, So I guess to

528
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 3: start with, can you explain what shot spotter is for

529
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 3: people who don't have it in their city or don't know.

530
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 6: Well, it's in i want to say, like one hundred

531
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 6: and thirty different cities across the country, so a lot

532
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 6: of people probably do have it. But it's a gunshot

533
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 6: detection system. So basically just you know, through a bunch

534
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 6: of fancy tech stuff we won't get into, and I'm

535
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 6: not even going to pretend to understand that side of it.

536
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 6: It's there are these audio sensors that are installed all

537
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 6: around the city, right and in predominantly black and brown neighborhoods.

538
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 6: You know, they're specifically in Chicago. There's actually a lawsuit

539
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 6: currently up and coming filed by the MacArthur Justice Center

540
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 6: over the fact that they are primarily installed in black

541
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 6: and brown neighborhoods and not on like the North Side.

542
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 6: And yeah, it's just a bunch of fancy little stuff

543
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,439
Speaker 6: that detects noises that are supposed to be gunshots, right,

544
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 6: so any loud popping or bringing sound, you know, could

545
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 6: could potentially set them off.

546
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and unfortunately, as anyone who's ever been in a

547
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 3: city and had a car backfire nose. People are just

548
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 3: indescribably dogshit at telling what is a gunshot and what

549
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 3: is not a gunshot exactly exactly.

550
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 6: And I mean there's so much evidence too, like there

551
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 6: been I mean are here in Chicago, Like our Office

552
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 6: of the Inspector General wrote like a whole report about

553
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 6: all of shots bars failures. But there's a bunch of

554
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 6: other research out there across the country about how inaccurate

555
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 6: this is. And you know, it's generating tens of thousands

556
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 6: of also like unjustified CPD deployments, like because when the

557
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 6: alert goes off, the cops get deployed, and you know,

558
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 6: it doesn't tell you anything about even if there was

559
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 6: a gunshot, like who fired a gun? You know, all

560
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 6: it's telling you is in this area. You know this

561
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 6: was determined. So you can imagine like all of these

562
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 6: you know, police encounters happening in response to these alerts,

563
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 6: like all the shit that could go wrong.

564
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's CPD, right, Like the Chicago Police Department's

565
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 3: motto was shoot first, don't ask questions later. So right,

566
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 3: this is a this is an absolutely terrible idea. It's

567
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 3: just sending all of these cops on random wild goose chases.

568
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, well, and it's what happened, was I mean,

569
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 6: most people probably remember Adam Toledo shooting. Those cops, you know,

570
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 6: were initially assigned to patrol that area because it was

571
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 6: designated as a violence box, you know, and ShotSpotter brought

572
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 6: them to the alley like where this thirteen year old

573
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 6: kid was, you know, shot and killed by police because

574
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 6: another and older man was with him and fired a

575
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 6: gun and then handed him the weapon. Yeah.

576
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 3: And that's another that's another one of the problems with

577
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 3: the technology, which is that even if it does detect

578
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 3: a gunshot, the thing that detecting a gunshot does and

579
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 3: send it to the police is send a bunch of

580
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 3: like absolutely unhinged murderers to a place and like make

581
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 3: to incredibly paranoid and then you know, have them in

582
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 3: like deal with the situation mode. And what Chicago cops

583
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 3: do when they're in deal with the situation mode is

584
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 3: they take out a gun, they shoot a thirteen year

585
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 3: old and kill them.

586
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, and the you know, the officer that shaw

587
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 6: him too, had had this one like rarely talked about

588
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 6: in the media. I think I don't know. It just

589
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 6: wasn't something that came up much when that was all happening.

590
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 6: But like that officer had a weird incident that was

591
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 6: recorded on bodycam like a little bit before he shot

592
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 6: and killed out in Toledo. I don't remember if it

593
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 6: was like months before, I don't know the timeline, but

594
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 6: it was fairly close to that where he like pulled

595
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 6: someone over at a traffic stop and was just acting

596
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 6: really jumpy and strange. H And it was kind of

597
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 6: investigated as like, you know, an undostified traffic stop and

598
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 6: and nothing happened with that. But it's just an example

599
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 6: of like how there were potentially warning signs because this

600
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 6: guy was also like a war veteran, you know, and

601
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 6: jumpy to begin with. And so yeah, you're sending these

602
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 6: guys into these areas who are already ready to go

603
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 6: off at a trigger, right.

604
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, and there's like there's no actual

605
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 3: good outcome of this, because like I guess, arguably the

606
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,439
Speaker 3: best possible outcome is the cops show up, there's nobody there,

607
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 3: enters out to have been a false alarm, but that

608
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 3: means we're paying the cops an unbelievable amount of money

609
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 3: to do nothing, and that's the best outcome, right.

610
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 6: And the way the alerts work also too, is like

611
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 6: unless the police file a complaint that an alert was false,

612
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 6: like a false alarm, it's automatically flagged in the system

613
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 6: as like a positive. Because there's all this algorithmic stuff

614
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 6: that happens, like with the shotswarter detection, where like, yeah,

615
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 6: the system detects it, but then also it goes to

616
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 6: like their I don't know, their whole systems like researchers

617
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 6: or whatever kind of put it all together and like

618
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 6: package a report about what happened. And so unless a

619
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 6: police complain and are like, oh, you know, this one

620
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 6: was false, or this was a this one was wrong,

621
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 6: this was a firework, this is a car back firing,

622
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 6: and of course like CPD is not doing.

623
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 3: That, yeah, because and I mean, I mean, this is

624
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 3: one of the problems with the system just inherently, if

625
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 3: even if you think that on some level this technology

626
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 3: could work, is that both the company's shots spotter and

627
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 3: the police have an enormous inherent incentive to make like,

628
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 3: at very least pretend that every single one of these

629
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 3: detections is real. Because if you're a police officer, right,

630
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 3: and you can point it. Oh, hey, look at how

631
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 3: many shots are being fired around the city all the time.

632
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 3: You know you need to give us more funding. This

633
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 3: is incredibly useful for them if your ShotSpotter. You don't

634
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 3: want everyone to know that your system detects like a

635
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 3: bird dropping an acorn out of a tree next to

636
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 3: your sensor or whatever. Like, you don't actually want people

637
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 3: to know that your your system brings up false positives

638
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 3: all the time, and it's actually basically completely useless, right, Yeah,

639
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 3: and so the incentive structure is just bad. It's just

640
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 3: it's only going to produce bad results.

641
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 6: Yeah. Well, and it's kind of like somebody, I don't

642
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 6: I forget where I read this, but somebody likened it

643
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 6: to if you had an informant working for you and

644
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 6: they were wrong nine times out of ten, would you

645
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 6: still use them?

646
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 3: Well, CPD would like to be.

647
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 6: To be fair, but like if you were a journalist

648
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 6: and you had a source that lied nine times out

649
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 6: of ten, you know, or was wrong nine times out

650
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 6: of ten, would would you call them back? Would you

651
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:36,280
Speaker 6: trust that source?

652
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: You know? Well?

653
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 3: And the other thing too is this isn't even it's

654
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 3: not even just like this is an informant, right because

655
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 3: you know, shot spot is wrong and annoymous percentage of

656
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 3: the time. But the thing is you don't have to

657
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 3: pay informants eight million dollars a year, which is what

658
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,959
Speaker 3: we're paying for this dog shit shots fire system.

659
00:41:54,320 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I mean the company itself all so like

660
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 6: they're so embedded with what's going on, like with police departments.

661
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 6: You know, they're Shotswater is leveraging their own money to

662
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,760
Speaker 6: try to like win police contracts that include shots fotter.

663
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 6: You know, they advise different police departments on how to

664
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 6: respond to requests about ShotSpotter. So it's like it's not

665
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,280
Speaker 6: just like this this I don't know, this mutual tool

666
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,439
Speaker 6: that's just like out there that they're just using. It's

667
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 6: like Shotswater has this vested interest in, uh, strengthening the

668
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 6: police and vice versa.

669
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then it gets into one of these very

670
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 3: very I mean it's a very common thing for the cops, right,

671
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,959
Speaker 3: but one of these unbelievably messed up spirals where like, yeah,

672
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 3: like everyone everyone involved has you know, the cops want

673
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 3: want more power. These guys want more money, and the

674
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 3: more money you give them, the more money they have

675
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 3: to then turn around again and put back into the

676
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,439
Speaker 3: political system so you can you buy more power, which

677
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 3: they can again turn into more money every single time

678
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 3: another contract.

679
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,399
Speaker 6: Comes up right right on, which they just they just did.

680
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 6: Brandon Johnson just gave them more money in their contract.

681
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we should talk about this because Okay, so

682
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 3: Brandon Johnson ran a weird campaign in respect to the police,

683
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 3: in the sense that he didn't really run a he

684
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 3: didn't run an anti police campaign. I guess like his

685
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 3: campaign was pretty pro police, but it also originally had

686
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 3: things like taking cops out of schools, and very specifically

687
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 3: he ran on canceling the ShotSpotter contract, which is a

688
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 3: thing that everyone in like people in Chicago who aren't

689
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 3: who don't live in like cop neighborhoods. Basically like it's

690
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 3: pretty popular to cancel this contract because it's it's millions

691
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 3: of dollars a year going to nonsense that just throws

692
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 3: cops everywhere. And then he got into office and his

693
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 3: budget still has the ShotSpotter shit in it. So huh,

694
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 3: electoralism win.

695
00:43:58,400 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 7: Yay.

696
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it wasn't explicit. It was an explicit

697
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 6: campaign promise, Like, it wasn't just like Oh, we were

698
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 6: hoping that he would do this because he's like our

699
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 6: big movement guy. It was like he explicitly made it

700
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 6: part of his platform was ending the contract for shot Spotter,

701
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 6: and now he is not, and there's there's some time

702
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 6: left before the budget hearing. I think it's like, I

703
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,399
Speaker 6: don't know, like fifty five days. I might be off

704
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 6: by a few days there, but there's only around, you know,

705
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 6: two months left, and since he's been elected. So like

706
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 6: the other thing, I mean, this is like the shady

707
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 6: part too, is like since he's been elected, he's been

708
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 6: asked whether he'll extend the contract and he's just like

709
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:43,359
Speaker 6: refused to answer.

710
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 3: Which is a really great politician stuff, like you know,

711
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 3: you you know that your politicians being completely normal and nothing,

712
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 3: everything is above board when they just straight up refuse

713
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 3: to answer questions, only good things ever result from that.

714
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, And it's been there's been like a lot of

715
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 6: similar sort of just like I don't know, lack of

716
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 6: transparency kind of incidents with him over the last however

717
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 6: longest been since he's been elected, God has been a

718
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 6: long year. It's kind of like there's this pattern now.

719
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 6: So yeah, I mean there were people who kind of Look,

720
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 6: he was never like the abolitionist like I'm going to

721
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 6: abolish the police, mayor, and like I get that. I

722
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 6: think a lot of people get that. But there's a

723
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 6: pretty big departure kind of between how he's approaching policing

724
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 6: and what Yeah, a lot of movement people or leftists

725
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 6: or abolitionists want you know, every encounter with a cop

726
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 6: is a potential for violence, right, And he's coming at

727
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 6: it more from the side of like, well, we just

728
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 6: need to rebuild trust in the police, and the community

729
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 6: just needs to you know, like we're just going to

730
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 6: rebuild trust and we're going to get these bad cops out.

731
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 6: We're going to have only good cops left and then everything.

732
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 6: I don't know what the logic there is personally, but

733
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 6: the you know, the logic is that we'll just have

734
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 6: good police encounters then. And it's just like this refusal

735
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 6: to acknowledge that like policing itself is a problem.

736
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, we are on year fifty of the mayor says

737
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 3: we need to restore trust in the police, We'll get

738
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 3: rid of the bad cops and everything. Like year fifty,

739
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 3: we are on what number of torture scandals? Are we

740
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 3: on since people first started saying this, like, I, it's

741
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 3: just right.

742
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 6: We shouldn't be laughing at torture. But it's like, yeah,

743
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 6: it's like every I don't know, every month there is

744
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,479
Speaker 6: a new Chicago police scandal. I literally cannot keep track.

745
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and okay, so we're going to talk about one

746
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:06,280
Speaker 3: of those scandals. But first, uh, we're gonna talk about ads.

747
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 3: I was gonna do like a you know what else

748
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 3: is a scandal, but I don't know. It's really late

749
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 3: being up for an outrageous number of hours and we

750
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 3: are back. So okay, speaking of Chicago police scandals, there's

751
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:27,280
Speaker 3: a lot. I mean, the CPD is always having scandals

752
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 3: because Chicago cops are just evil. But yeah, do you

753
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 3: want to talk about the specific shot spotter one that

754
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 3: we're having right now?

755
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:38,959
Speaker 1: Yeah?

756
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 6: I mean, well, there there are other Chicago police shot

757
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 6: spotter scandals, but no, the most this most recent story

758
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:49,839
Speaker 6: you know that just came out.

759
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 1: Uh.

760
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 6: There's a political journalism site, slash blog. They're also our

761
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 6: homiees we don't want to work with them, called people

762
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 6: Stabric and they wrote, you know, an analysis of some

763
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 6: videos that they obtained of what is like essentially a

764
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 6: CPD gang. I mean everybody's heard of, like the LATD

765
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 6: gangs were not everybody, but I'm sure a lot of

766
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 6: listeners have followed the story out of out of la

767
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 6: with like the Sheriff's deputies gangs just roaming around and

768
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:28,399
Speaker 6: committing horrible acts against people, and you know, in these

769
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 6: sort of like cruise of bad cops and and this

770
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 6: is definitely not the first instance of something like that

771
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,839
Speaker 6: happening in Chicago, but you know, there were just there

772
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 6: was a lot of video evidence against these guys. One

773
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 6: of them has been indicted. I don't know if the

774
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 6: other three have, but yeah, they were just driving around

775
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 6: basically terrorizing this community. You know, a lot of just

776
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 6: unlawful stops, stopping people on the street, shaking them down

777
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 6: for cash, drugs, and a lot of guns. And they

778
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 6: were filing false reports about found guns, so like they

779
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 6: would stop somebody take a gun and then log it

780
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 6: as like a gun that was found And you know,

781
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 6: in one instance, they said that they were a mile

782
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,399
Speaker 6: away from where a shot spotter alert had gone off

783
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 6: and claimed that they looked around and just happened to

784
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 6: find a gun on the ground. They had taken the

785
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 6: gun from a woman.

786
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 1: You know it.

787
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 6: They didn't find it on the ground, but they were

788
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 6: able to use the fact that there was a shot

789
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 6: spotter alert that went off in that area as like

790
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:45,720
Speaker 6: a way to cover their tracks.

791
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 3: Basically, Yeah, and this is something so we talked about

792
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 3: on the show, like, oh god, was that like two

793
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 3: years ago? It was a year ago. A while back

794
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 3: we talked about on this show. The Chicago's used to

795
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 3: have this police nic called Special Operations Sectionion SOS, which

796
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 3: was disbanded after it was revealed they were doing literally

797
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 3: the same thing, which is they would go up to

798
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 3: people to rob them. And one of Chicago has one

799
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 3: of these scandals about once. It like once a decade

800
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 3: there's like a big one of these, and we're kind

801
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 3: of due for one. We haven't had a really big

802
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 3: one of these. Specifically, there's an entire section of the

803
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 3: CPD that's just a burglar or a drug ring. So

804
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 3: I suspect we're gonna find out more about this stuff

805
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 3: because it's it's about time that another one of these

806
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 3: turns up. But yeah, I mean, they were just like

807
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 3: just rolling up on people, just going give me your

808
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,280
Speaker 3: gun and then driving away and saying don't tell anyone,

809
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 3: which is really.

810
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: Really yeah.

811
00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 6: Well, I'm like also for seemingly no reason, like some

812
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,400
Speaker 6: instances like there. I mean, we look, we can't know

813
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 6: all of their motivations for everything, and a lot more

814
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 6: is going to come out, I'm sure, like in the

815
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 6: court proceedings. But it's like, were they trying to had

816
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 6: the gun retrieval statistics and or were they trying to

817
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 6: do something else? You know, they were like a tactical team,

818
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 6: So I presume, I mean, I think it's the case

819
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 6: that like there are certain gun retrieval statistics that CPD

820
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 6: wants to mate, but you know, the other stuff like

821
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 6: obviously taking cash from people, you know, like like there's

822
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 6: other things they were doing, you know, and and they've

823
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 6: always been look there, I'm not going to allege anything

824
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 6: that isn't proven in the specific instance, but I will

825
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 6: say that there have always been rumors about Chicago police

826
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 6: officers specifically taking things like guns to like sell back,

827
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,479
Speaker 6: you know, to gangs basically, and same with drugs. Right,

828
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 6: you know, these guys were we're logging some of them

829
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 6: at least, but what if there were ones that they

830
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 6: weren't logging, Like we don't know. I mean, this is

831
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 6: just what we know happened and what was caught. And

832
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 6: I mean they were dumb enough to like have some

833
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,319
Speaker 6: of this caught on their body camps. It's like they

834
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 6: were turning their cameras off for like some parts of

835
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,720
Speaker 6: these stuffs, but like not others, or like the camera

836
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 6: would be on and there's like you know, cash and

837
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 6: drugs and then like oh, the camera goes off, and

838
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 6: it's like, well, any logical person can deduce what may

839
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 6: have happened here, like why turning your camera off? Right?

840
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 6: And so yeah, they've always been rumors about kind of

841
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 6: like what these crews driving around are like ultimately doing

842
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 6: with this kind of stuff, and I think it just

843
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 6: it varies depending on them. But I would also add,

844
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 6: you know, the what you mentioned the special operations section.

845
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 6: You know, we only recently learned there's like a Sun

846
00:52:55,680 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 6: Times investigation into all the Chicago cops who were on

847
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 6: the Hoast Keepers membership role. Oh and a number of

848
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 6: those guys were in soos actually, so that's a fun

849
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 6: little fact.

850
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 3: Also, yeah, that's another one of the another episode in

851
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 3: the endless parade of Juhago Police Department scandals is like, yeah,

852
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 3: a bunch of these are in far right militias, which

853
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 3: is this is this really interesting? So we did an

854
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 3: episode pretty recently that I was talking about David Graber.

855
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 3: One of one of the one of the points that

856
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 3: he makes in this essay on Batman and the problem

857
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 3: of constituent power, which is a wild thing to be

858
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 3: citing in a police thing, but you know, one of

859
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 3: the points that he makes is one of the one

860
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 3: of the sort of key like fascist convergences. Is this

861
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 3: cooperation between the police, the far right and organized crime

862
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 3: and the CPD. Is this incredible nexus of it, right,

863
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 3: I mean you it's literally the same person is all

864
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 3: three of these things at the same time. It is

865
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 3: a cup who is in a fart right militia who

866
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 3: is also like literally just doing organized crime at the

867
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 3: same time. It's really Yeah, you used to have to

868
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 3: sort of like make metaphors, and you no longer have

869
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 3: to do that. The metaphor just is real. You're just

870
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 3: physically describing the event. It's really something.

871
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean, when you really think about it, I

872
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 6: think policing in and of itself is just like a

873
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 6: cult like anything else. And it makes sense that like

874
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 6: the same people who would gravitate towards like militia groups

875
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 6: and like white supremacist groups, any any like I don't know,

876
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:49,240
Speaker 6: group where people kind of have those like hardline beliefs

877
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 6: about the world. And then it's also just like a

878
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 6: lot of these guys are like especially the ones on

879
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 6: like taskal teams, they're all like fucking like traumatized war vetter,

880
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:03,719
Speaker 6: you know, they all have kind of these long backstories

881
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 6: of like military service and just like to get onto

882
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 6: like special ops or like the tactle reading, you know,

883
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 6: et cetera, they kind of look for people with military experience,

884
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 6: not always, but like frequently. And so there's also that

885
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 6: intersection there two of like militarism and abroad and then

886
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 6: like policing at home.

887
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, and that's a really common thread. I mean,

888
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 3: just like across the entire world. This is a thing

889
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 3: where like the police office, like the police groups that

890
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 3: are the most likely to go completely rogue and either

891
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 3: just start murdering people randomly or turn into organized crime things,

892
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,839
Speaker 3: like are these special operations units there. There was like

893
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty, they were these huge protests and like

894
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 3: anti police protests in Nigeria that were specifically about trying

895
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 3: to get one of these special operations like police special

896
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 3: operation things, I like abolished because special operations guys just

897
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 3: kept shooting everyone and this, you know, like every single

898
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 3: like this happens just everywhere in the world that these

899
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 3: it is like, you know, I mean, obviously normal cops

900
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:08,280
Speaker 3: also do crime. And we talked also another episode about

901
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 3: some kind of normal cops. You did a cartel and

902
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 3: like the the twenty tens, but the special operations groups

903
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 3: go off the rails at a rate that is staggering,

904
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 3: which you would think, you would think someone in government

905
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 3: would look at this, like even if you're a pro

906
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 3: police person, you would look at this and go, wait,

907
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 3: maybe it's a bad idea to have specifically formed these

908
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 3: units that every single time turned into a cartel. But no, no,

909
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 3: they ever do this because the point of cops is

910
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,800
Speaker 3: not to not form cartels.

911
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 6: Well, I think also too, there's like a very uh,

912
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 6: I don't know, I guess neoliberal sort of line of

913
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 6: thinking about like policing and how like we really really

914
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:55,919
Speaker 6: need like the tactical, high skill kind of units. Right

915
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 6: Like there's always like we're giving the cop, we're always

916
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 6: tearing the cops more more, and that's for training. Training

917
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 6: is a big justification for why we're always giving you

918
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 6: them more money. But so there's like you know, skills

919
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:11,839
Speaker 6: and sort of technology, and like I think as we're

920
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 6: dealing with i don't know, like mass shootings and like

921
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 6: all this really horrible stuff just like going on around

922
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 6: us at all times too. Now, it's like it's a

923
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 6: really I think easy way to justify policing to people

924
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 6: is like honor the guise of these like tactical units

925
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 6: or units with like a lot of firepower to deal

926
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 6: with like really really bad guys. Quote right, Like you know,

927
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 6: maybe those people might be like, oh, we've like fewer

928
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 6: cops thetrolling our neighborhoods. You know, we're kind of we

929
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 6: get like, you know, black lives matter or whatever, but

930
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 6: they're like, but we really need to, you know, have

931
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 6: the big guns ready for when something bad comes to

932
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 6: our neighborhood. And so I think that's also like a

933
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 6: sticking point for a lot of people on the on

934
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 6: the way to like actually thinking about it. Polishing the

935
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 6: police too is like what would we do without these

936
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 6: units the guys with like all these skills and all

937
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 6: these crazy weapons to like help us if if if

938
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 6: a bad guy comes and of course the guys, like

939
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 6: the bad guys are those guys like Guy Well.

940
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 3: And there's the more cynical side of it too, which

941
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 3: is like, you know, if you're if you're the mayor

942
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 3: of Chicago, it's like, well, someone has to shoot the

943
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 3: black panthers, right, Like you need to have guys whose

944
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 3: job it is to like when when you know, when

945
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 3: like revolutionary movements started up, you need like someone has

946
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:39,959
Speaker 3: to start shooting those guys. So yeah, so I want

947
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 3: to go back to talk a bit more about the

948
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 3: like shot spatter and the budget stuff that's been happening,

949
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 3: because so the current the current budget has what is it,

950
00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 3: I think it like doubles the the any raises that

951
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 3: that cops were getting. Is that the right number?

952
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 6: I don't know if it doubled, but I read that

953
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:10,520
Speaker 6: it was actually wait, yeah, so it's it's five percent,

954
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 6: up from like two point five. Yeah, it's double. It's

955
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 6: also the largest package of raises for any city employee

956
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 6: union in modern history. I mean, I'm directly quoting a

957
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 6: Better Government analysis, but but but yeah, no, like literally

958
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 6: it is. It is an enormous It is an enormous race.

959
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 6: And here's the thing. The cops were thrilled with this contract.

960
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 6: Uh the hat of fop John Cavanzara, who is just

961
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 6: like a racist, misogynistic, horrible, just like garbage dump of

962
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 6: a person, you know, was thrilled with with this contract.

963
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 6: Was thrilled with this being passed, you know. And that's

964
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 6: like number one sign that your mayor sucks is when

965
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 6: like the cops are thrilled about something he did like this.

966
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 6: Uh so so yeah, I mean it's it's a huge

967
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 6: amount of money. There's a bunch of other stuff in it,

968
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 6: like you know, salary grade changes and like stipends for

969
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 6: stuff and bonuses and uh there's some changes to like

970
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 6: the bodyborn camera policy too, which are kind of concerning.

971
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 6: But but ultimately it's like, yeah, Brendon Johnson is now

972
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:23,080
Speaker 6: the funds the police mayor. Like I don't know how

973
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 6: you can say that he's not when you when you

974
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 6: look at this, like this is just handing the cops

975
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 6: more money.

976
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, And Chicago cops are already just unbelievably dog shit overpaid.

977
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 3: Chicago teachers are unbelievably underpaid. Yeah, so you know, I

978
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 3: mean we are we are once again paying a bunch

979
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:46,520
Speaker 3: of people to rob us it's really it's it's good stuff.

980
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

981
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 6: And and they they get a lot of time off too.

982
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:52,640
Speaker 6: I mean, look, they have they have a ton of benefits.

983
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 6: There's a ton of you know, privileges and things that

984
01:00:56,320 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 6: that the cops get. But it's kind of kind of

985
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 6: like he he could have given them slightly less money,

986
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 6: Like it was almost this contract almost feels like the

987
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 6: way I've seen some people describe it is it almost

988
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 6: feels like an act of like goodwill towards the cops.

989
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 6: Like it almost like I was like, I'm giving you

990
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 6: this thing that you really want in the in the

991
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 6: hopes of like I don't know, I don't know what

992
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 6: he's trying to get out of it. I mean, I

993
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 6: don't know what what the motivation is. But it's like

994
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:31,360
Speaker 6: you could have done you could have done less, and

995
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 6: you're going for like a lot, So what's what's the

996
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 6: deal there? And you know the new superintendent too, is

997
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 6: like hugely concerning. He picked a guy who's uh like

998
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 6: an expert in surveilling communities ahead of like the DNC

999
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 6: coming next summer, the former head of the counter Terrorism Bureau.

1000
01:01:54,160 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 6: You know, like it's just it's a lot of really

1001
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:06,439
Speaker 6: disappointing moves, and I think a lot of people were

1002
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 6: really hoping to see I guess a more abolitionist kind

1003
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 6: of streak. But the ultimately he's like he ran as

1004
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 6: a liberal, like we knew this was coming, but there

1005
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 6: was like almost like taking advantage I guess of like

1006
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:24,120
Speaker 6: movement groups to sort of get get the power behind

1007
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 6: him during the campaign. But look, our alternative was also

1008
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 6: like an evil, like lying, maniacal Paul Vallas. So it's

1009
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 6: just like a shit sandwich. It's like bad choices all around, right.

1010
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean not just is Chicago. I mean

1011
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 3: it's just Illinois. Electoral politics in general is a choice

1012
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 3: between the guy he gives the police more money and

1013
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 3: the other guy who gives the place more money. So yeah,

1014
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 3: it's not good exactly. Again, it really seems like we're

1015
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 3: going to get more shot spotter of the technology that

1016
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:02,960
Speaker 3: is wrong over ninety percent of the time.

1017
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 8: So it's great, it's really well.

1018
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 6: It was a few months left. I mean hopefully, look,

1019
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 6: hopefully this is I don't know, there's arguments to be

1020
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 6: made for and against harm reduction, I guess, and whether

1021
01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 6: it's like a worthwhile goal, but maybe there's still like

1022
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,960
Speaker 6: a shot at like at least getting this part scratched out.

1023
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 6: I mean there is, like I said, like this big

1024
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:33,720
Speaker 6: lawsuit and if nothing else, you know, perhaps he and

1025
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:37,040
Speaker 6: his administration could be concerned about just like you know,

1026
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 6: the bad press around it if it's included and so

1027
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:46,120
Speaker 6: many people are opposing it. But this is also an

1028
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:49,720
Speaker 6: administration that like didn't care about the bad press that

1029
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 6: came with like saying, we're building a detention camp on

1030
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 6: polluted land.

1031
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 3: So yeah, well look look like this, this is this

1032
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 3: is the thing that that the fight over the police

1033
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:04,440
Speaker 3: budget is distracting from, which is that we defined a

1034
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 3: second toxic waste dump to build the migrant concentration cap on.

1035
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 3: So you know, progressive, progressive values are getting happening either way.

1036
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 6: Look, I frequently said all mayors are bastards, which is

1037
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 6: true corny, but I think you just it's fine. Look,

1038
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 6: it's fine to vote, I guess if that is your sting,

1039
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 6: just don't convince yourself that once you leave the voting

1040
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 6: booths that like the struggle is over, because whatever happens,

1041
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 6: like this person, this authority figure in charge, is your enemy.

1042
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 6: Like it doesn't matter how.

1043
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 1: Nice he is.

1044
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 6: It doesn't matter how many jokes he cracks, like whatever,

1045
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 6: whatever you're trying to like resist or like liberate, Like

1046
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 6: this person is going to stand in your way just

1047
01:04:56,160 --> 01:05:01,000
Speaker 6: by virtue of being the mayor. Like it's into what

1048
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 6: that is. So I think it's just a matter of

1049
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 6: being like clear eyed about that rather than like convincing

1050
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 6: yourself that you can somehow like co run the city

1051
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 6: like with the government.

1052
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:16,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I'm gonna, okay, I'm gonna take a

1053
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:19,320
Speaker 3: shot at a city on the other side of the world.

1054
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:21,800
Speaker 3: But fuck it, I'm still mad about this.

1055
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 8: Okay.

1056
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:27,440
Speaker 3: So the the nominal best case scenario for this inside

1057
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 3: an electoral framework was when Barcelona and Camu, which is

1058
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 3: this sort of left wing platform in Barcelona made of

1059
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 3: a bunch of ex anarchists I like, managed to get

1060
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 3: managed to get a semisabled majority of the city council.

1061
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:45,040
Speaker 3: Then the first time they got their mayor elected, the

1062
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 3: first thing that that fucking mayor did, like a weekend

1063
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:50,720
Speaker 3: of office, was she knew where all the squats were

1064
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:53,640
Speaker 3: in Barcelona, And the first thing she fucking did was

1065
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 3: she knew which immigrant squat didn't have enough community support

1066
01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 3: behind them to stop them from getting evicted, and she

1067
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:01,800
Speaker 3: had them evicted. So you know, this is what happens

1068
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 3: when you put activists in charge. They they do a

1069
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:08,920
Speaker 3: more efficient job of uh being the kind of insurgency.

1070
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:12,320
Speaker 3: So oh my god, yeah, this is this is this

1071
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 3: is what you're getting into.

1072
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:15,920
Speaker 6: Oh my god. Well yeah, and I mean then it

1073
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:20,680
Speaker 6: also becomes like its own smoke screen, you know, like

1074
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 6: just using the fact that like, oh, I was elected

1075
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:28,440
Speaker 6: by activists, or like I was elected by movement people,

1076
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:32,720
Speaker 6: so like you know, I'm on your side, and just

1077
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:35,560
Speaker 6: using it as like a shield against like every move

1078
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:37,240
Speaker 6: and being like, well, I know this looks bad, but

1079
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 6: like you guys know, like I'm I'm your guy, Like

1080
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 6: I'm one of you, like like just trust me, Like

1081
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:45,880
Speaker 6: we're doing this for the for the right reasons. It

1082
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 6: might look bad, but because I'm your guy, you know,

1083
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 6: it's okay. I mean, it's the same thing with like

1084
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 6: like a uh Biden and the and the border wall.

1085
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 3: Now I think ironically our episode on that is going

1086
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:01,720
Speaker 3: to be the episode that comes right before this, so

1087
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:05,320
Speaker 3: oh wait, sorry, sorry, two episodes. Sorry, There'll be two

1088
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 3: episodes before. Yeah, oh, and the two episodes after well

1089
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:10,640
Speaker 3: is also going to be borderwall shit, So yeah, border

1090
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:13,439
Speaker 3: wall bad. Fuck Biden from border wall.

1091
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,480
Speaker 6: But it's like it's Brighten's border wall. He's doing all

1092
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:21,600
Speaker 6: this shit. And then you know it's just if it

1093
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 6: was Trump, we know what the response would be from

1094
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:27,400
Speaker 6: supposed progressives.

1095
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:30,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't don't let people like put a code of

1096
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:32,920
Speaker 3: paint on a turd and hand it to you and

1097
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:35,680
Speaker 3: be like, no, it's good. Actually we don't have to

1098
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 3: do this.

1099
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 6: Right, But I mean, also the border wall. Do you

1100
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:45,960
Speaker 6: remember there was a brief flash of time in October

1101
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 6: when when Brandon Johnson and his team announced they were

1102
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:55,560
Speaker 6: going to visit the border wall and then it only

1103
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:58,400
Speaker 6: lasted like twenty four hours, seventy two hours. I don't

1104
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:00,720
Speaker 6: know when, but at some point then they like very

1105
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:05,040
Speaker 6: quickly reversed the decision when they realized like how bad

1106
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 6: that would look as we have like like at that time,

1107
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:15,600
Speaker 6: there were thousands of people in police like thousands of

1108
01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:19,120
Speaker 6: migrants to it who had traveled here and staying on

1109
01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:22,559
Speaker 6: police station floors, and there was like they were gonna

1110
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:25,200
Speaker 6: have this publicity stone want went to a while, and

1111
01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:27,280
Speaker 6: then they changed their minds about it, and we're like, oh, yeah,

1112
01:08:27,280 --> 01:08:30,840
Speaker 6: this is probably a bad idea. But it's become this

1113
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:33,639
Speaker 6: this like Pilgrimage site. I mean, like I know, AOC

1114
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:36,360
Speaker 6: went there. It's like liberal politicians like go there to

1115
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 6: be like, oh, this is so terrible and then they like,

1116
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 6: you know, just kind of let Biden make it worse.

1117
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:47,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this this has been that, this has turned

1118
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:51,760
Speaker 3: into the liberal groups elected on big promises, make your

1119
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 3: life worse episode. Well, this has been naked happen here.

1120
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:01,080
Speaker 3: You could find us in the places where can people

1121
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:03,639
Speaker 3: find you, just you.

1122
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 6: Know, on the Hell site which I know you're back

1123
01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:13,080
Speaker 6: on now unfortunately unfortunately. Yeah, you know, we have drinks

1124
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:16,840
Speaker 6: Press dot org pro site and then yeah, Twitter, Instagram,

1125
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:17,639
Speaker 6: all that stuff.

1126
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:20,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, so go check out the Drinks Press people. They

1127
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:24,680
Speaker 3: do they do great work. And yeah, cops, bad.

1128
01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:28,240
Speaker 6: Cops, bad cops, always bad cops, keep being bad.

1129
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:46,760
Speaker 8: Hi everyone, it's James, and today I've got a two

1130
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:50,519
Speaker 8: part episode for you. Initially, I'd planned to have my

1131
01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:53,559
Speaker 8: friends Emmitt and Dave talk to me about the shelters

1132
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,439
Speaker 8: that we've all been building in Aucumber because the weather's

1133
01:09:56,439 --> 01:10:00,640
Speaker 8: getting worse and worse. But we're able to connect with Amos,

1134
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:03,000
Speaker 8: who is one of the migrants who has spent time

1135
01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:05,720
Speaker 8: in outdoor detention sadly, and then in indoor detentions you'll

1136
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:09,720
Speaker 8: hear and I really wanted to sort of refocus this

1137
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:12,760
Speaker 8: episode on sharing Amos's story because I think, as I've

1138
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 8: said countless times right that if we don't spent the

1139
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:16,920
Speaker 8: migrants in our reporting about migration, then we're doing it wrong.

1140
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:21,120
Speaker 8: And so you will hear introductions from Dave, and you

1141
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 8: will hear introductions from Emmett, and you'll heard a little

1142
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:27,320
Speaker 8: bit from them next episode about how we're bullying they,

1143
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:30,680
Speaker 8: but we'll bring you that episode another time, because I

1144
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 8: wanted this episode to be mostly about Amos's migration journey.

1145
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:40,360
Speaker 8: Hello everybody, it's me James. I am hosting it could

1146
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:43,959
Speaker 8: happen here today again and I'm joined by my friends

1147
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:48,519
Speaker 8: Amos and Emmett and potentially later our friend David. We're

1148
01:10:48,520 --> 01:10:50,519
Speaker 8: going to talk today again about the situation in hit

1149
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:53,280
Speaker 8: the Komba. Amos is one of the people who we've

1150
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:55,559
Speaker 8: detained in the outdoor detention sites, and it's going to

1151
01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:58,880
Speaker 8: explain some of his experience. And then Emmett is someone

1152
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:02,160
Speaker 8: who has been working with a group of people, including myself,

1153
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 8: to build shelters for migrants to build slightly more permanent,

1154
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:10,920
Speaker 8: slightly more improved shelters. Unfortunately, border patrol has taken upon

1155
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:15,640
Speaker 8: themselves to instruct migrants to destroy those shelters, and so

1156
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:17,280
Speaker 8: we're going to talk about how we build them, what

1157
01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:20,799
Speaker 8: we learn when we're building them, and unfortunately the fact

1158
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:24,639
Speaker 8: that they have been destroyed. So I'm going to ask

1159
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:28,080
Speaker 8: my three guests to introduce themselves. David is here now,

1160
01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:32,960
Speaker 8: so we'll start with you, Amos, and then and then David,

1161
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:35,160
Speaker 8: just tell us who you are and anything you think

1162
01:11:35,240 --> 01:11:36,400
Speaker 8: is relevant about yourself.

1163
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:40,280
Speaker 1: So I guess thank you for the invite. I appreciate

1164
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 1: the opportunity to add whatever I can to this very

1165
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:48,639
Speaker 1: very important subject. I happen to be. I call myself

1166
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:52,880
Speaker 1: an accidental and legal immigrant, if you want to put

1167
01:11:52,880 --> 01:11:57,240
Speaker 1: it that way. Due to some family circumstances, I found

1168
01:11:57,280 --> 01:12:04,080
Speaker 1: myself following a the new migratory road, I mean roads

1169
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:08,720
Speaker 1: that has taken me through I lost count ten or

1170
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:14,680
Speaker 1: twelve countries starting from North Africa all the way to

1171
01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:21,280
Speaker 1: the border with the United States. So that's me, and uh,

1172
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:24,519
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I would I would love nothing

1173
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 1: more but to add to this conversation.

1174
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:26,720
Speaker 8: Thank you.

1175
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:28,799
Speaker 1: I am. My name is Emitt.

1176
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:31,759
Speaker 9: I am a volunteer with Borlands these collectives.

1177
01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:34,479
Speaker 8: And then David, would you like to finish up by

1178
01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:36,200
Speaker 8: introducing yourself him.

1179
01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:37,160
Speaker 7: My name is David.

1180
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:41,920
Speaker 10: I'm a volunteer with Borderlands Relief Collective as well as

1181
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:47,599
Speaker 10: Detention Resistance. I do water drops and I've also been

1182
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 10: helping out as a volunteer in the Border Patrol Open

1183
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:57,519
Speaker 10: Air Detention site doing uh work as a medic and

1184
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:00,000
Speaker 10: helping out building.

1185
01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:03,240
Speaker 8: These great Yeah, thank you, thank you so much everyone.

1186
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:07,080
Speaker 8: So I think everyone will be interested in hearing Amos's story.

1187
01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:10,000
Speaker 8: So as far as you're comfortable sharing, Amos, and there's

1188
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:11,920
Speaker 8: no need to share anything that you're not comfortable with

1189
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 8: or don't want to share. Can you tell us about

1190
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:20,320
Speaker 8: your journey from North Africa to the United States. And

1191
01:13:20,439 --> 01:13:23,799
Speaker 8: I think we've been particularly interested in, like how people

1192
01:13:24,160 --> 01:13:27,800
Speaker 8: are finding out about these obviously these big gaps in

1193
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:30,000
Speaker 8: the war that that are in Cucumber, and how people

1194
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 8: are ending up there from all over the world.

1195
01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:37,080
Speaker 1: Now right, well, buckle up. It's a long journey, James.

1196
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:37,880
Speaker 1: It's a long one.

1197
01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:42,559
Speaker 11: So for me personally, it started with.

1198
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:50,559
Speaker 1: A sort of an accidental separation from my family, my

1199
01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:56,400
Speaker 1: wife and kids for reasons proportionate reasons have to go

1200
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:59,360
Speaker 1: to go back to the United States, and I was not.

1201
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:03,519
Speaker 1: I was the the visa to join them. They went

1202
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 1: for initially two mourn the loss of a brother in law,

1203
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:14,960
Speaker 1: I mean a brother in law, and unfortunately I wasn't

1204
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:19,759
Speaker 1: able to get there by obtaining a visa to do so.

1205
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 1: So I spent six seven months arguing with the embassy.

1206
01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:29,519
Speaker 1: Was not given any legal reasoning for whye and my

1207
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:31,920
Speaker 1: visa was denied. I've lived in the United States for

1208
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:36,840
Speaker 1: the sixteen years. I've had a Clington record with one

1209
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:41,799
Speaker 1: arrest and release and it was part of a protest

1210
01:14:41,840 --> 01:14:45,639
Speaker 1: that really that happened in Los Angeles and were released

1211
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:52,800
Speaker 1: right away. And basically I left in twenty fifteen. I'd

1212
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:56,040
Speaker 1: got to think the clean hands, no issues and then

1213
01:14:56,320 --> 01:15:00,840
Speaker 1: going back to Tunisia where I was with my new

1214
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:06,479
Speaker 1: family anyhow. So so basically I was denied visa I

1215
01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:09,479
Speaker 1: really wanted to do. I've never done anything illegal in

1216
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:13,320
Speaker 1: my life. I wanted to do the legal route, following

1217
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:16,639
Speaker 1: what's what's been always told that you know, follow their

1218
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:20,120
Speaker 1: legal route, don't don't come ilegally. So so that was

1219
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:22,519
Speaker 1: not even a question in my mind. You know, you know,

1220
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:25,240
Speaker 1: the wife is American, the kids are American. I mean,

1221
01:15:25,280 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 1: I just it shouldn't be an issue. But I really

1222
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 1: was confronted with I mean, I can safely say bye

1223
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:34,719
Speaker 1: by now it's a bias.

1224
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:38,720
Speaker 12: It's it's got to be some racism just by by

1225
01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:41,919
Speaker 12: by deduction really, because when you run out of reasoning,

1226
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:46,280
Speaker 12: you have to really start making these sad and you

1227
01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:47,800
Speaker 12: know said conclusions.

1228
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:52,040
Speaker 11: So yeah, so basically no, again, that was that took.

1229
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:56,639
Speaker 1: Me on a long and painful depression and anxiety and

1230
01:15:56,880 --> 01:16:00,160
Speaker 1: a cocktail of mental health issues that I'm still actually

1231
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:03,720
Speaker 1: dealing with right now. And it took my kids, my

1232
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:07,160
Speaker 1: two kids, my beautiful kids, through therapy and they're still

1233
01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:09,960
Speaker 1: going through therapy. My wife is going through therapy. I'm

1234
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:12,800
Speaker 1: going through therapy, and it took it blew apart in

1235
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:15,640
Speaker 1: this family. We're still trying to figure out why so

1236
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 1: much you know nothing but could define it but hate. Really,

1237
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:24,000
Speaker 1: there is no other way of putting it. So and again,

1238
01:16:24,080 --> 01:16:28,679
Speaker 1: I just the discussion was with my friends in America

1239
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:33,120
Speaker 1: has been very difficult because they have no understanding or

1240
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:37,639
Speaker 1: concept of what, you know, the diplomatic core is doing.

1241
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:41,320
Speaker 1: And what is the these embassies are doing because there

1242
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:45,000
Speaker 1: is no there is no access to them by Americans.

1243
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:48,759
Speaker 1: It's just usually foreigners who do. And that really creates

1244
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:54,160
Speaker 1: like this black hole of tax money going to these embassies.

1245
01:16:55,040 --> 01:16:57,720
Speaker 1: And then what they're doing is just just with a

1246
01:16:57,720 --> 01:17:01,000
Speaker 1: stroke of a pen, yes, yes or no, no explanation.

1247
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:04,559
Speaker 1: You can't sue, you can't appeal, you can't do. It's

1248
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:08,800
Speaker 1: absolute power. And then you know, I'm I'm mentioning this

1249
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:12,360
Speaker 1: that the embassy is because through my journey, through this

1250
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:15,439
Speaker 1: long and painful journey, I've met time and time again

1251
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:21,000
Speaker 1: other fellow immigrants who again tried to go through the

1252
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:25,200
Speaker 1: League route were denied with no reason, with no like

1253
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:29,320
Speaker 1: no written reason, no no valid reason. So again you

1254
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:33,840
Speaker 1: know this this discussion on and off again, and you

1255
01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:38,439
Speaker 1: know among American citizens as to why people are showing

1256
01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:41,240
Speaker 1: up in the border, well, I mean, at least in part,

1257
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:45,560
Speaker 1: what I see is no accountability whatsoever to the embassies.

1258
01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:48,920
Speaker 1: Like time and time again, you have these embassies denying

1259
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:51,320
Speaker 1: people who are trying to do it the right way,

1260
01:17:51,439 --> 01:17:53,760
Speaker 1: trying to do it. They either have family or work

1261
01:17:53,840 --> 01:17:56,640
Speaker 1: or whatever, and they're denied time and time again. And

1262
01:17:56,680 --> 01:17:59,360
Speaker 1: then you have, you know, and the hundreds of thousands

1263
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 1: going through process, and of course they try, they try,

1264
01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:05,160
Speaker 1: and then eventually they have no choice. So I'm not

1265
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:08,120
Speaker 1: saying this is the only explanation, but it's a big

1266
01:18:08,200 --> 01:18:12,519
Speaker 1: part of it. I've spoken for people who are crossing

1267
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:15,599
Speaker 1: and who are on the way from anywhere from Brazil

1268
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:22,920
Speaker 1: to Colombia to Ecuador, to Panama, to Nicaragua, to Guatemala

1269
01:18:22,960 --> 01:18:28,960
Speaker 1: to Belize, in Mexico, all across. I've come across so

1270
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:31,640
Speaker 1: many people and they, you know, at least I mean,

1271
01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:34,000
Speaker 1: my little humble mass I would say fifty to sixty

1272
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:38,600
Speaker 1: percent have tried through embassies, but unfortunately you know that,

1273
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:42,320
Speaker 1: you know, they just turned down. So this is an

1274
01:18:42,320 --> 01:18:44,840
Speaker 1: issue that is not talked about. This is an issue

1275
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:47,479
Speaker 1: they really get away with Scott Free. I mean they

1276
01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:50,480
Speaker 1: really don't. There's zero can I mean, there are gods.

1277
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:54,599
Speaker 1: I mean the ambassador have zero accountability now, I mean

1278
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:58,679
Speaker 1: he he is absolutely he has all the power and

1279
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:02,479
Speaker 1: no cannability. I mean, rarely you see ambassador being recalled

1280
01:19:02,479 --> 01:19:06,240
Speaker 1: by Congress. Rarely you see an ambassador being questioned, hey,

1281
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:12,120
Speaker 1: why are these these are demands being the client, why

1282
01:19:12,400 --> 01:19:14,320
Speaker 1: what are you doing about it all that stuff, you know.

1283
01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:17,280
Speaker 1: So this is this is some of the stuff I

1284
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:19,559
Speaker 1: want to add to the conversation because nobody has ever

1285
01:19:19,600 --> 01:19:19,960
Speaker 1: mentioned this.

1286
01:19:20,080 --> 01:19:21,080
Speaker 11: Nobody talks about this.

1287
01:19:21,479 --> 01:19:25,720
Speaker 8: Yeah, so, yeah, it's very important. I think your experiences

1288
01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:27,800
Speaker 8: is far from unique, as you've said, right, I have

1289
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:34,400
Speaker 8: seen hundreds of people carrying visa rejection letters come across

1290
01:19:34,400 --> 01:19:36,559
Speaker 8: the southern border. They've shown them to me, right. They

1291
01:19:36,560 --> 01:19:39,680
Speaker 8: are people who have been victims of some of the

1292
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:42,120
Speaker 8: worst things that can happen to human beings, and they've

1293
01:19:42,160 --> 01:19:45,519
Speaker 8: survived them. And we've still refused to give these people

1294
01:19:45,560 --> 01:19:47,320
Speaker 8: a safe place, so they've had to take their journey

1295
01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:48,479
Speaker 8: in a more dangerous way.

1296
01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:52,439
Speaker 11: I mean, I didn't see a single round person in

1297
01:19:52,960 --> 01:19:53,439
Speaker 11: the embassy.

1298
01:19:53,479 --> 01:19:57,719
Speaker 1: It's all right again, I'm I'm I hope you guys

1299
01:19:57,720 --> 01:19:59,479
Speaker 1: don't feel like I've been like two.

1300
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:02,000
Speaker 11: I'm just being honest because I see.

1301
01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:05,000
Speaker 1: It, and I'm I'm up to date of what people

1302
01:20:05,040 --> 01:20:07,680
Speaker 1: are talking about and all the discussions, and I see it,

1303
01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:10,760
Speaker 1: like you know, almost have a level of a of

1304
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:16,040
Speaker 1: a right wing supremacy style, like you know, I mean,

1305
01:20:16,400 --> 01:20:18,120
Speaker 1: it's just you feel it.

1306
01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:18,680
Speaker 11: You feel it.

1307
01:20:18,680 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 1: It's thetter you have to be a quote unquote brown

1308
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:24,160
Speaker 1: person or a minority person to feel it. I don't

1309
01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:27,720
Speaker 1: expect others to understand it, but we feel it. And

1310
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:30,160
Speaker 1: this is a discussion I've had in detention with a

1311
01:20:30,160 --> 01:20:33,880
Speaker 1: lot of the fellow detainees. There is that sense, there's

1312
01:20:33,920 --> 01:20:36,240
Speaker 1: a sense that you know, we're being looked down at,

1313
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:39,360
Speaker 1: not on our merits, but on you know, a little

1314
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:42,519
Speaker 1: bit of you know, assumptions because of where you're from.

1315
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:45,880
Speaker 1: Assumptions like you go in and it's already baked. It's

1316
01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:48,479
Speaker 1: already baked. It's already And this is me. I've had

1317
01:20:48,479 --> 01:20:51,519
Speaker 1: a visa from the US for sixteen years. I mean,

1318
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:54,559
Speaker 1: it should be a slam dunk. You know. So my

1319
01:20:54,640 --> 01:20:57,280
Speaker 1: two kids are American, my wife, my wife is American.

1320
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:01,040
Speaker 1: We are and til today are all confused as to

1321
01:21:01,120 --> 01:21:04,160
Speaker 1: why the denials happened. I mean, I've called Congress members

1322
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:05,920
Speaker 1: that David was with me today when I was at

1323
01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:10,439
Speaker 1: the Congress Membership Shift Adam Shift in Bourbon, California, and

1324
01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:14,760
Speaker 1: we you know, even they don't have an answer as

1325
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:15,960
Speaker 1: to why the denial happened.

1326
01:21:16,800 --> 01:21:21,120
Speaker 11: And you know, I mean to close my personal issue, James.

1327
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:24,920
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I was told that perhaps you were

1328
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:28,880
Speaker 1: illegally in the United States between twenty thirteen twenty fifteen

1329
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:32,080
Speaker 1: and then, but they can't say for sure that was

1330
01:21:32,120 --> 01:21:36,400
Speaker 1: the reason. But in detention when they when they didn't

1331
01:21:37,120 --> 01:21:40,559
Speaker 1: all the research on me, none of that existed, none

1332
01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:42,920
Speaker 1: of that. There's none of that. They released me because

1333
01:21:42,920 --> 01:21:43,960
Speaker 1: they have nothing against me.

1334
01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:44,439
Speaker 8: Nothing.

1335
01:21:44,720 --> 01:21:47,360
Speaker 1: And this is and this is the uscis, this is

1336
01:21:47,400 --> 01:21:51,280
Speaker 1: the Immigration Service, not the embassy coming up with some

1337
01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:54,599
Speaker 1: of these you know, bogus ideas. You know, so again

1338
01:21:55,880 --> 01:21:59,519
Speaker 1: it's a mess, and I feel like, you know this, this,

1339
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:02,559
Speaker 1: this sees need to be looked into more because the

1340
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:05,760
Speaker 1: border patrol ends up feeling the blunt of all this.

1341
01:22:06,600 --> 01:22:09,400
Speaker 1: But where does it start? Where is the source?

1342
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:11,519
Speaker 11: I s always the question of where is the source?

1343
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:15,000
Speaker 1: Where the source is? Yes, there's economic issues, there is,

1344
01:22:15,400 --> 01:22:18,280
Speaker 1: there is there is uh physical abuse, there's all kinds

1345
01:22:18,280 --> 01:22:22,439
Speaker 1: of stuff. But then also there's tax dollars being spent

1346
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:24,479
Speaker 1: in the billions and the billions and hundreds of billions

1347
01:22:24,520 --> 01:22:27,479
Speaker 1: on these diplomatic course. I mean to be fair, my

1348
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:31,400
Speaker 1: journey was not was not as difficult as many many, many, many,

1349
01:22:31,439 --> 01:22:34,639
Speaker 1: many stories that I've heard heart worming, I mean, really

1350
01:22:34,640 --> 01:22:39,519
Speaker 1: heartbreaking stories. My journey really, you know, I'm I'm somewhat

1351
01:22:39,560 --> 01:22:41,800
Speaker 1: to have a somewhat of a sophisticated life in the

1352
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:43,960
Speaker 1: sense that you know, I spent a lot of time

1353
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:47,439
Speaker 1: again we wasted. Most of the time that we wasted

1354
01:22:47,600 --> 01:22:50,400
Speaker 1: was waiting on the embassy because they kept on dragging

1355
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:53,400
Speaker 1: and dragging their feet, six seven months waiting while my

1356
01:22:53,479 --> 01:22:55,680
Speaker 1: kids are crying on the phone, and you know, we

1357
01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:58,040
Speaker 1: don't have the income to to be able to able

1358
01:22:58,080 --> 01:23:00,280
Speaker 1: to have them come back to to to to Nisia

1359
01:23:00,320 --> 01:23:05,559
Speaker 1: where I was. So anyhow so, yeah, it started by researching, researching,

1360
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:09,879
Speaker 1: reading a lot of articles, researching as far as North Africa.

1361
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:13,719
Speaker 1: The route that is being used right now by mostly

1362
01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:18,200
Speaker 1: by a lot of Mauritanians and West Africans. This goes

1363
01:23:18,240 --> 01:23:24,440
Speaker 1: through Turkey and then from Turkey they're going to Nicaragua.

1364
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:29,799
Speaker 1: Because Nicaragua Managua the capital of Nicaragua, they have allowed

1365
01:23:29,800 --> 01:23:33,320
Speaker 1: for visa and arrival, and then from and then from

1366
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:38,920
Speaker 1: Managua there is literally almost like travel companies doing packaging

1367
01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:43,439
Speaker 1: packages for upwards to six seven thousand dollars from there

1368
01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:48,160
Speaker 1: to and then six seven thousand dollars from Nicarago. But

1369
01:23:48,840 --> 01:23:51,040
Speaker 1: before Nicaragua there's at least three four.

1370
01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 11: Thousand dollars, so I'm told by.

1371
01:23:54,640 --> 01:23:59,160
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, the four Mauritanians that were detained, I'm

1372
01:23:59,160 --> 01:24:01,840
Speaker 1: told about tenth thosand dollars, which comes down to their

1373
01:24:01,880 --> 01:24:05,639
Speaker 1: local currency, about forty five thousand of their local currency,

1374
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:10,720
Speaker 1: which is a lot, I mean a lot. So they so,

1375
01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:13,000
Speaker 1: like I said, so they managed to get the flights

1376
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:18,559
Speaker 1: to Nicaragua. Managua has been on arrival for thirty days

1377
01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:22,479
Speaker 1: for North Africans, and then from there you got literally

1378
01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:27,639
Speaker 1: their journey through I don't know, coyotes, whatever you want

1379
01:24:27,640 --> 01:24:33,800
Speaker 1: to call them, facilitators whatever, well established with buses through

1380
01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:38,800
Speaker 1: El Salvador, through what Honduras, Honduras and Salvador, Guatemala, and

1381
01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:41,840
Speaker 1: then through Mexico. So that's the route that's been you know,

1382
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:47,120
Speaker 1: upwards of six seven thousand Mauritanians and West Africans as

1383
01:24:47,120 --> 01:24:49,920
Speaker 1: far as the last articles that I've read, have taken

1384
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:52,920
Speaker 1: their route. So I looked into it. I couldn't afford it,

1385
01:24:52,960 --> 01:24:55,280
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, this is just you know,

1386
01:24:55,320 --> 01:24:59,679
Speaker 1: I was sending money to my kids and wife because

1387
01:24:59,680 --> 01:25:01,920
Speaker 1: she I had to be on welfare. She just arrived

1388
01:25:01,920 --> 01:25:04,200
Speaker 1: there and she had to keep the kids at school

1389
01:25:04,200 --> 01:25:06,519
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of struggle, so I had to

1390
01:25:06,600 --> 01:25:10,120
Speaker 1: kind of try to help with that. On the same time,

1391
01:25:10,600 --> 01:25:13,439
Speaker 1: I was waiting on the embassy and we you know,

1392
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:16,360
Speaker 1: and the WAF was calling them to see if can

1393
01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:18,040
Speaker 1: we expedite, can we do this, can we do this?

1394
01:25:18,080 --> 01:25:21,040
Speaker 1: But they were literally rude and and you know, treated

1395
01:25:21,080 --> 01:25:23,160
Speaker 1: her like a second class citizen. I don't know why.

1396
01:25:23,439 --> 01:25:29,479
Speaker 1: We still can't figure that out anyhow. So another route

1397
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:32,599
Speaker 1: right now, which is a difficult route, is through Brazil

1398
01:25:32,680 --> 01:25:37,160
Speaker 1: because Brazil has a I don't know if you guys know,

1399
01:25:39,600 --> 01:25:41,679
Speaker 1: and I think they do that for Americans too. Yeah,

1400
01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:45,280
Speaker 1: so Brazil has sort of I don't know the word,

1401
01:25:45,280 --> 01:25:47,479
Speaker 1: but the equivalent to them is if you impose a

1402
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:51,720
Speaker 1: visa on Brazil. Brazilians were imposed vision news. They do

1403
01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:56,360
Speaker 1: that to Americans too, So so you know where I'm from,

1404
01:25:56,400 --> 01:26:01,040
Speaker 1: they don't have a visa to as far as for Brazils,

1405
01:26:01,040 --> 01:26:03,639
Speaker 1: so we don't. So a lot of Africans can go

1406
01:26:03,720 --> 01:26:08,000
Speaker 1: to Brazil and from Brazil take the route all the way.

1407
01:26:08,120 --> 01:26:13,400
Speaker 1: So David mentioned the Amazon Strait where they crossed the

1408
01:26:13,479 --> 01:26:17,080
Speaker 1: jungle from Colombia to Panama and so on and so forth.

1409
01:26:17,320 --> 01:26:21,400
Speaker 1: That is I mean, I'm yes, the Darian, the famous

1410
01:26:21,439 --> 01:26:27,519
Speaker 1: Darian that is to me personally. Man, it gives me

1411
01:26:27,600 --> 01:26:30,240
Speaker 1: chills because the two or three guys that one of

1412
01:26:30,280 --> 01:26:33,120
Speaker 1: them did it on his own with Google Maps. Man,

1413
01:26:33,160 --> 01:26:35,479
Speaker 1: I don't know how the hell he did it. I

1414
01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:38,519
Speaker 1: have no clue how he did it. I am. I

1415
01:26:38,600 --> 01:26:42,160
Speaker 1: was listening and trying to understand them. Oh, it was

1416
01:26:42,240 --> 01:26:46,840
Speaker 1: just heartbreaking, you know, the suffering. So but yeah, through

1417
01:26:46,880 --> 01:26:51,320
Speaker 1: Brazil and then Colombia and and keep on going that way.

1418
01:26:51,640 --> 01:26:53,720
Speaker 1: That's another route for me.

1419
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:55,760
Speaker 3: Uh.

1420
01:26:56,760 --> 01:27:01,000
Speaker 1: Again, I booked flights. I didn't all through that trouble,

1421
01:27:01,680 --> 01:27:05,439
Speaker 1: to be fair, but I've had some issues with vis

1422
01:27:06,240 --> 01:27:08,679
Speaker 1: is because North Africas don't get a lot of visa

1423
01:27:08,800 --> 01:27:11,360
Speaker 1: access around the Latin America. We don't have a lot

1424
01:27:11,400 --> 01:27:14,040
Speaker 1: of embassies there, we don't have a lot of trade,

1425
01:27:14,040 --> 01:27:16,200
Speaker 1: we don't have a lot of commerce between our countries.

1426
01:27:16,479 --> 01:27:20,480
Speaker 1: So it's kind of an unknown uh, an unknown commodity

1427
01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:23,519
Speaker 1: in the sense that you know, everything is is, you

1428
01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:26,400
Speaker 1: know is new. For me. I was able to get

1429
01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:29,600
Speaker 1: a visa to Colombia, and I'm very grateful for to

1430
01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:33,960
Speaker 1: choose Columbia because it's a it's affordable. It's been a

1431
01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:37,080
Speaker 1: good experience for myself to get out of UH me

1432
01:27:37,120 --> 01:27:39,920
Speaker 1: get closer and on the same time figure out the

1433
01:27:40,000 --> 01:27:42,040
Speaker 1: lay of the land and understand where I'm going. So

1434
01:27:42,080 --> 01:27:45,479
Speaker 1: those I'm grateful for that. And from there my goal

1435
01:27:45,560 --> 01:27:48,320
Speaker 1: was to get a visa to Mexico, and a lot

1436
01:27:48,320 --> 01:27:51,240
Speaker 1: of and most of my American friends get are still confused.

1437
01:27:51,280 --> 01:27:53,960
Speaker 1: That's why I would need a Mexican visa. That's a

1438
01:27:53,960 --> 01:27:57,120
Speaker 1: whole other discussion. And then the Mexican visa has become

1439
01:27:57,520 --> 01:28:00,599
Speaker 1: extremely difficult, almost as difficult as the American visa because

1440
01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:03,200
Speaker 1: of pressure from the United States to stop the flow.

1441
01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:07,919
Speaker 1: So UH again we end up making it very difficult

1442
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:11,920
Speaker 1: for people who want to legitimately do this. So finding

1443
01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:15,400
Speaker 1: an appointment for a Mexican UH embassy, then you find

1444
01:28:15,439 --> 01:28:19,479
Speaker 1: out which embassy of Mexico has the available. Some of

1445
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:22,320
Speaker 1: them don't have ever, some of them have them two

1446
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:24,920
Speaker 1: years from now. Some of them have them, you know,

1447
01:28:25,720 --> 01:28:28,880
Speaker 1: UH for a particular visa but not the other. And

1448
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:31,360
Speaker 1: you know, so for me, it was Colombia, and then

1449
01:28:31,600 --> 01:28:36,080
Speaker 1: UH I found an appointment in in for for Mexican

1450
01:28:36,160 --> 01:28:40,000
Speaker 1: visa and belize UH but unfortunately I ended up in

1451
01:28:41,200 --> 01:28:46,640
Speaker 1: you know, going from Colombia to Panama to UH, Nicaragua

1452
01:28:46,840 --> 01:28:51,400
Speaker 1: to Guatemala, and then Belize because Belize has not a

1453
01:28:51,479 --> 01:28:57,600
Speaker 1: lot of UH flights UH from Latin America. And then

1454
01:28:57,640 --> 01:29:02,519
Speaker 1: when I got to Guatemala, all the previous countries allowed

1455
01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:05,439
Speaker 1: me to transit without a problem, but Guatemala decided to

1456
01:29:05,439 --> 01:29:11,519
Speaker 1: put me in a detention for almost forty hours and

1457
01:29:11,560 --> 01:29:15,320
Speaker 1: then wanted to return me back to original country because

1458
01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:20,519
Speaker 1: they yeah, So I'm like, I'm my plane departs a

1459
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:22,880
Speaker 1: few hours of going to Belize. Why are you doing

1460
01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:25,680
Speaker 1: this please? I'm not on need the visit to Guatemala.

1461
01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:29,479
Speaker 1: I'm not going to Guatemala. Nothing, no discussion. They threw

1462
01:29:29,560 --> 01:29:32,200
Speaker 1: me in there, cockroaches, you name it, the whole Enchilada.

1463
01:29:32,320 --> 01:29:35,040
Speaker 1: I mean, no food, no water, no nothing. I mean,

1464
01:29:35,080 --> 01:29:38,599
Speaker 1: you know, it's just sad, very sad, very sad, very sad.

1465
01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:40,920
Speaker 1: That was a really very sad And then so I

1466
01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:45,280
Speaker 1: was sent back to Panama, then from Panama to Colombia,

1467
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:47,519
Speaker 1: and then Colombia that was going to send me back

1468
01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:49,840
Speaker 1: to North Africa. So it was going to be a

1469
01:29:49,840 --> 01:29:53,000
Speaker 1: really mess. So I had to use some of my

1470
01:29:53,040 --> 01:29:57,000
Speaker 1: customer service skills that have run through the years to

1471
01:29:57,360 --> 01:30:01,519
Speaker 1: wiggle myself where I this minute was able to help

1472
01:30:01,600 --> 01:30:06,040
Speaker 1: some friends buy a ticket to like, you know, in

1473
01:30:06,080 --> 01:30:07,880
Speaker 1: the midnight hour. Really they were going to send me.

1474
01:30:07,960 --> 01:30:11,040
Speaker 1: So I bought a ticket to Ecuador, where I had

1475
01:30:11,040 --> 01:30:14,160
Speaker 1: a visa for ninety days. So I was able to

1476
01:30:14,200 --> 01:30:16,920
Speaker 1: get out of that mess, stay in Guador for a

1477
01:30:16,960 --> 01:30:19,840
Speaker 1: couple of weeks, and then try to get to Belize again.

1478
01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:22,800
Speaker 1: And the next time I was successful in going to

1479
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:27,639
Speaker 1: Belize through Panama and then Nicaragua, then straight to Belize,

1480
01:30:28,280 --> 01:30:31,160
Speaker 1: avoiding Guatemala, and then Believe. I was there for a

1481
01:30:31,160 --> 01:30:34,559
Speaker 1: couple of weeks, and then I was able to get

1482
01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:39,600
Speaker 1: a visa to Mexico, thank God. And there was a

1483
01:30:39,640 --> 01:30:41,640
Speaker 1: lot of Russians, there was a lot of Turks, there

1484
01:30:41,680 --> 01:30:44,000
Speaker 1: was a lot of no no, no Turks, no Russians,

1485
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:45,920
Speaker 1: and a lot of East Europeans trying to get a

1486
01:30:46,000 --> 01:30:49,680
Speaker 1: visa there too for Mexico. And basically from there it

1487
01:30:49,800 --> 01:30:52,760
Speaker 1: was the journey of taking a bus from Belize to Cancun,

1488
01:30:53,360 --> 01:30:58,240
Speaker 1: can Coon to Monterey Monterrey to Cabo. I found a job,

1489
01:30:58,400 --> 01:31:04,040
Speaker 1: a volunteering job in Fortois, Condido. I'm a yoga practitioner,

1490
01:31:04,160 --> 01:31:08,200
Speaker 1: and I found a yoga to treat there to try

1491
01:31:08,240 --> 01:31:11,120
Speaker 1: to help me with my mental health and all that stuff.

1492
01:31:11,200 --> 01:31:15,120
Speaker 11: So yeah, so and they're doing a great job.

1493
01:31:15,160 --> 01:31:17,120
Speaker 1: It's in the middle of the wilderness. They're really present,

1494
01:31:17,439 --> 01:31:21,200
Speaker 1: you know, working on natural preservation and in beautiful job

1495
01:31:21,240 --> 01:31:25,240
Speaker 1: they're doing there. And then from there Gambos and Lucas.

1496
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:28,639
Speaker 1: Gambos and Lucas. I volunteered at a hotel to kind

1497
01:31:28,680 --> 01:31:32,240
Speaker 1: of be able to eat and sleep, and then from

1498
01:31:32,240 --> 01:31:39,280
Speaker 1: there Tijuana and Tijuana. I met someone earlier in can Kun,

1499
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:44,000
Speaker 1: a Colombian who was all the time I was in Mexico,

1500
01:31:44,040 --> 01:31:47,679
Speaker 1: I was trying to do the app, the CVB one app.

1501
01:31:48,120 --> 01:31:50,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, and how was your experience with that?

1502
01:31:50,120 --> 01:31:55,439
Speaker 1: Because absolutely absolutely horrible, absolutely horrible, absolutely horrible. I mean

1503
01:31:55,479 --> 01:31:59,160
Speaker 1: it's just basically useless. It's useless. And I met people

1504
01:31:59,200 --> 01:32:01,720
Speaker 1: who've been there for two months on the app and

1505
01:32:01,760 --> 01:32:02,400
Speaker 1: it didn't work.

1506
01:32:03,080 --> 01:32:05,120
Speaker 8: Explain to me what didn't work about it? Like, did

1507
01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:06,439
Speaker 8: it LOK you out? Did it?

1508
01:32:06,600 --> 01:32:08,680
Speaker 1: I wish I can send you screen I have screenshots

1509
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:11,240
Speaker 1: that can send you to you can understand what so

1510
01:32:11,240 --> 01:32:14,440
Speaker 1: so it tells you, that tells you, that tells you

1511
01:32:14,360 --> 01:32:17,519
Speaker 1: you're so you sign up, you put your information, you

1512
01:32:17,600 --> 01:32:20,559
Speaker 1: passport and all that stuff. And then basically what you're

1513
01:32:20,600 --> 01:32:23,920
Speaker 1: doing is you're you're in the queue, and it's there's

1514
01:32:24,000 --> 01:32:27,040
Speaker 1: like a lottery system where they see how long you've

1515
01:32:27,080 --> 01:32:29,320
Speaker 1: been waiting, how old are you, where are you from.

1516
01:32:29,640 --> 01:32:33,920
Speaker 1: There's like a lottery system that randomly selects people. So

1517
01:32:34,720 --> 01:32:37,160
Speaker 1: but again, you know, out of a close to one

1518
01:32:37,200 --> 01:32:41,040
Speaker 1: hundred people in my detention cell, you know room, everybody's saying,

1519
01:32:41,040 --> 01:32:44,920
Speaker 1: we all tried, and none of them, you know, got

1520
01:32:45,120 --> 01:32:47,680
Speaker 1: an appointment. I mean everybody wants an appointment. I mean,

1521
01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:50,400
Speaker 1: who's in the reds, who's in the right in his

1522
01:32:50,520 --> 01:32:53,360
Speaker 1: right mind would choose to forego an appointment and go

1523
01:32:53,439 --> 01:32:57,240
Speaker 1: do throughout that trouble. So and if we can do

1524
01:32:57,280 --> 01:33:00,040
Speaker 1: a little bit of math, eventually, at some point I

1525
01:33:00,040 --> 01:33:02,960
Speaker 1: spoke to the supervisor of the Border Patrol detention center

1526
01:33:04,160 --> 01:33:06,680
Speaker 1: and he told me there's eighteen hundred people at any

1527
01:33:06,720 --> 01:33:09,799
Speaker 1: given point in that place. So out of eighteen hundred people,

1528
01:33:09,840 --> 01:33:11,880
Speaker 1: and if my cell there was about six cells or

1529
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:14,240
Speaker 1: something or more than that much more, much more the

1530
01:33:14,640 --> 01:33:17,640
Speaker 1: six seals and then four blocks, I think, sonya, So

1531
01:33:19,240 --> 01:33:23,519
Speaker 1: uh yeah, I mean if about out of one hundred,

1532
01:33:23,600 --> 01:33:27,240
Speaker 1: then you have nobody was able to use the app.

1533
01:33:27,200 --> 01:33:30,040
Speaker 11: Then what's what's to tell tell out of the eighteen.

1534
01:33:29,840 --> 01:33:32,639
Speaker 1: Hundred maybe nine nine percent, I mean all of them really,

1535
01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:36,040
Speaker 1: because if they did have appointment, Yeah, if they had appointments,

1536
01:33:36,040 --> 01:33:38,519
Speaker 1: there would have been not in there, right, I mean

1537
01:33:38,600 --> 01:33:39,400
Speaker 1: that's that's the key.

1538
01:33:39,520 --> 01:33:40,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1539
01:33:40,840 --> 01:33:45,760
Speaker 1: So, I mean it's just a flawed system. I was

1540
01:33:45,800 --> 01:33:48,639
Speaker 1: telling my wife yesterday, that's like ellipstick on a pig,

1541
01:33:48,680 --> 01:33:50,080
Speaker 1: because you know, you're just trying to make it look

1542
01:33:50,120 --> 01:33:53,800
Speaker 1: because you're doing something, but it's really it's really like

1543
01:33:54,240 --> 01:33:59,400
Speaker 1: there's nothing being done about it. And anyhow, so I'm

1544
01:33:59,439 --> 01:34:02,919
Speaker 1: still dazed, unconfused. I mean, I'm trying to understand the situation.

1545
01:34:04,520 --> 01:34:08,200
Speaker 1: So I literally I was the last one to get in,

1546
01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:13,080
Speaker 1: and literally I'm sitting there and I'm standing there at

1547
01:34:13,080 --> 01:34:16,160
Speaker 1: the border itself, at the wall, and I'm like, what's

1548
01:34:16,200 --> 01:34:17,920
Speaker 1: going on? Where is the border patrol? Where is the

1549
01:34:17,920 --> 01:34:20,280
Speaker 1: port of entry? Where is this? I'm not confused.

1550
01:34:20,680 --> 01:34:23,880
Speaker 8: After finding himself unable to make an appointment through CBP one,

1551
01:34:24,680 --> 01:34:26,519
Speaker 8: he must have decided to make his way to Accumber

1552
01:34:26,880 --> 01:34:29,280
Speaker 8: like thousands of other migrants. And I think it's worth

1553
01:34:29,320 --> 01:34:32,720
Speaker 8: pointing out here that nothing that he has done up

1554
01:34:32,800 --> 01:34:37,200
Speaker 8: to this point is breaking any laws. Right, It's not

1555
01:34:37,280 --> 01:34:39,720
Speaker 8: illegal to drive around in Mexico. It's not illegal to

1556
01:34:39,760 --> 01:34:42,960
Speaker 8: approach the border from the south. All of this stuff

1557
01:34:43,040 --> 01:34:45,759
Speaker 8: is the legal way to move around. No, no crimes

1558
01:34:45,800 --> 01:34:49,280
Speaker 8: have been committed. And it is course legal to cross

1559
01:34:49,280 --> 01:34:51,920
Speaker 8: the border and present yourself for assylum immediately upon doing so,

1560
01:34:52,080 --> 01:34:55,479
Speaker 8: even to cross between ports of entry. It's the discretion

1561
01:34:55,960 --> 01:34:59,599
Speaker 8: of the administration or the prosecutors to charge for that crossing.

1562
01:35:00,280 --> 01:35:02,920
Speaker 8: But that is a legal means to claim asylum. And

1563
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:05,439
Speaker 8: so we'll let they must pick up again here as

1564
01:35:05,479 --> 01:35:07,840
Speaker 8: he takes his first step into United States.

1565
01:35:08,560 --> 01:35:11,680
Speaker 1: The first thing I say is, I'm pretty sure that

1566
01:35:11,880 --> 01:35:14,800
Speaker 1: there's some Fox News stuff because they were there were

1567
01:35:14,920 --> 01:35:20,439
Speaker 1: so aggressive camera and a brand new jeep and they

1568
01:35:20,439 --> 01:35:23,960
Speaker 1: were like, hey cool Google shoot shoot, and then you know,

1569
01:35:24,320 --> 01:35:26,519
Speaker 1: ladies and dudes and everybody was running and they were

1570
01:35:26,560 --> 01:35:28,880
Speaker 1: running after them to shoot them with the I mean

1571
01:35:28,880 --> 01:35:30,559
Speaker 1: with the camera. I mean, I mean, that's what I mean.

1572
01:35:31,000 --> 01:35:35,160
Speaker 1: And you can tell there is malicious intent behind what

1573
01:35:35,200 --> 01:35:39,200
Speaker 1: they're doing. It was not like trying to be sort

1574
01:35:39,200 --> 01:35:42,599
Speaker 1: of neutral or anything. They were just you know, anyhow,

1575
01:35:42,680 --> 01:35:46,280
Speaker 1: So I'm looking for a border patrol. I'm trying to say, hey,

1576
01:35:46,280 --> 01:35:48,040
Speaker 1: I'm finding for asylum. Where are you?

1577
01:35:48,120 --> 01:35:48,720
Speaker 11: What's going on?

1578
01:35:49,280 --> 01:35:52,519
Speaker 1: Nothing, there's nobody. So I'm just walking around with the

1579
01:35:52,680 --> 01:35:56,559
Speaker 1: with the around the world. I call my wife, I

1580
01:35:56,640 --> 01:36:00,680
Speaker 1: call some friends. Thank god it's to that signal. And

1581
01:36:00,720 --> 01:36:05,439
Speaker 1: then uh, yeah, I mean, you know, the first book

1582
01:36:05,439 --> 01:36:08,960
Speaker 1: Border patrolman that I saw, he was pissed off. He said,

1583
01:36:09,040 --> 01:36:11,439
Speaker 1: a few, a few, a few, this, move out of

1584
01:36:11,439 --> 01:36:15,920
Speaker 1: my way. Fine cool. Uh. I told him whatever I said.

1585
01:36:16,000 --> 01:36:18,479
Speaker 1: If I didn't like, I said, I'm sorry. And then

1586
01:36:18,479 --> 01:36:21,120
Speaker 1: I moved on and nobody's interested in even to talk.

1587
01:36:21,840 --> 01:36:26,040
Speaker 1: So and then I moved closer, closer to the crowd,

1588
01:36:26,880 --> 01:36:29,639
Speaker 1: and uh, I don't know if that's when I saw David,

1589
01:36:29,760 --> 01:36:34,400
Speaker 1: but it was almost almost almost yeah, And even when

1590
01:36:34,400 --> 01:36:37,320
Speaker 1: I saw David initially, but then I kept going to

1591
01:36:36,880 --> 01:36:40,120
Speaker 1: do to have an idea of the whole camp, camp

1592
01:36:40,600 --> 01:36:43,880
Speaker 1: and the whole like understand what the dynamics. I saw

1593
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:47,080
Speaker 1: some National guardsmen, I saw some DHS police, and I

1594
01:36:47,120 --> 01:36:50,559
Speaker 1: saw some Border patrolmen. It's like a whole mix of people.

1595
01:36:51,040 --> 01:36:54,920
Speaker 1: And I think I think there was uh Park rangers.

1596
01:36:55,280 --> 01:36:58,960
Speaker 1: If I'm not, I'm not second Yeah, yeah, so ber

1597
01:36:59,040 --> 01:37:02,599
Speaker 1: lam Rangers. Yeah. So so it's a huge mix of people.

1598
01:37:05,560 --> 01:37:09,559
Speaker 1: And right away my my survivor instincts kind of you know,

1599
01:37:09,640 --> 01:37:12,240
Speaker 1: I I saw David and I saw tools, and my

1600
01:37:12,320 --> 01:37:15,240
Speaker 1: eyes opened up because you know, I worked and I

1601
01:37:15,280 --> 01:37:18,320
Speaker 1: built my farm from scratch in North Africa, and I

1602
01:37:18,360 --> 01:37:22,559
Speaker 1: have my tools are everything to me. So anyhow so,

1603
01:37:22,680 --> 01:37:25,240
Speaker 1: I'm glad I did see that that that familiar site,

1604
01:37:25,280 --> 01:37:28,200
Speaker 1: and I appreciate that. But you but you, David and Caissar,

1605
01:37:28,320 --> 01:37:33,000
Speaker 1: you guys were terrific. And yeah, I mean nobody spoke English.

1606
01:37:33,280 --> 01:37:38,880
Speaker 1: Nobody spoke English, nobody, and everybody's being treated like.

1607
01:37:39,840 --> 01:37:42,559
Speaker 11: I mean, I told one border performent, I have house,

1608
01:37:42,640 --> 01:37:43,400
Speaker 11: I have sheep.

1609
01:37:43,720 --> 01:37:45,800
Speaker 1: I treat them better the way you treat these guys.

1610
01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:49,360
Speaker 1: I really do. I truly do. And they were didn't

1611
01:37:49,439 --> 01:37:53,880
Speaker 1: like that kind of talk. But anyhow so, yeah, I

1612
01:37:53,920 --> 01:37:58,240
Speaker 1: mean I got really cold, I mean very quickly, and

1613
01:37:58,520 --> 01:38:02,960
Speaker 1: right away David and Scissor, thank god, had had some

1614
01:38:03,000 --> 01:38:04,960
Speaker 1: tools and we started, you know, working on getting some

1615
01:38:05,000 --> 01:38:08,120
Speaker 1: tents up and running. And uh, I mean they did

1616
01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:10,400
Speaker 1: most of the work really, I was just there helping,

1617
01:38:10,920 --> 01:38:16,360
Speaker 1: so uh and it was it was it was, dude,

1618
01:38:16,400 --> 01:38:19,160
Speaker 1: My heart was really pain giving me a lot of

1619
01:38:19,200 --> 01:38:21,760
Speaker 1: pain because in my mind I had my my my

1620
01:38:21,840 --> 01:38:24,080
Speaker 1: boy and my girl on my mind and I'm just

1621
01:38:24,080 --> 01:38:25,240
Speaker 1: trying to get to to them.

1622
01:38:25,600 --> 01:38:29,799
Speaker 11: But I seen these kids. Man, that was that was horrific.

1623
01:38:29,880 --> 01:38:31,720
Speaker 1: Man. That was not right. That was not right in

1624
01:38:31,760 --> 01:38:36,880
Speaker 1: that cold, it was just not right. And uh, I'm

1625
01:38:36,880 --> 01:38:39,000
Speaker 1: telling you still in my mind right now.

1626
01:38:39,040 --> 01:38:39,920
Speaker 11: I mean, I'm not gonna let you.

1627
01:38:39,960 --> 01:38:42,240
Speaker 1: It's it's it's just it's embedded, you know.

1628
01:38:42,680 --> 01:38:44,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, it affects all of us. Like I would say,

1629
01:38:44,960 --> 01:38:46,760
Speaker 8: last night, I was a little baby there and I

1630
01:38:47,040 --> 01:38:48,880
Speaker 8: couldn't sleep coming home, you know, like I.

1631
01:38:49,240 --> 01:38:52,479
Speaker 1: Mean, you know, jeez, dude, like you know, the thing

1632
01:38:52,560 --> 01:38:56,240
Speaker 1: is this? You know? Okay, Again, I told David, uh,

1633
01:38:57,000 --> 01:38:58,920
Speaker 1: it's not a question of left or right. The question

1634
01:38:59,080 --> 01:39:01,920
Speaker 1: is so I get it. I spoke to Bush, a

1635
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:05,040
Speaker 1: border patrol, and again I couldn't sleep at night. I

1636
01:39:05,240 --> 01:39:09,440
Speaker 1: basically kept on going. After David and Caesar left, I

1637
01:39:09,439 --> 01:39:11,840
Speaker 1: tried to sleep. I couldn't sleep. I called my kids.

1638
01:39:12,320 --> 01:39:14,639
Speaker 1: They sleep at eight forty eight thirty, so I spoke

1639
01:39:14,680 --> 01:39:17,439
Speaker 1: to them and then they were asleep. And then I

1640
01:39:17,479 --> 01:39:19,240
Speaker 1: got up and I.

1641
01:39:18,960 --> 01:39:21,960
Speaker 11: Kept walking around. Some people had a lot of woods.

1642
01:39:22,000 --> 01:39:24,479
Speaker 1: Some people didn't have enough wood, so and some people

1643
01:39:24,479 --> 01:39:26,040
Speaker 1: didn't want me to take some of their wood. I

1644
01:39:26,080 --> 01:39:28,120
Speaker 1: had to go pick up some wood and try to look,

1645
01:39:29,280 --> 01:39:31,479
Speaker 1: you know, make sure everybody's fire is up and running.

1646
01:39:32,760 --> 01:39:36,880
Speaker 1: And then, you know, when everybody had the fire and

1647
01:39:36,920 --> 01:39:40,840
Speaker 1: everybody kind of somewhat settled in, I figured, hey, let

1648
01:39:40,880 --> 01:39:43,280
Speaker 1: me if I'm up, let me talk to the border patrol.

1649
01:39:44,200 --> 01:39:45,880
Speaker 1: I spoke to the first one. He was kind of,

1650
01:39:45,960 --> 01:39:49,280
Speaker 1: you know, didn't want to talk, but still said a

1651
01:39:49,320 --> 01:39:52,879
Speaker 1: few things. But then another one originally from San Diego.

1652
01:39:53,040 --> 01:39:56,400
Speaker 1: Cool guy, really cool guy. He gave me the picture.

1653
01:39:56,439 --> 01:39:58,880
Speaker 1: I mean, look, listen, I mean, you know, we're here

1654
01:39:58,920 --> 01:40:01,320
Speaker 1: to work and the stress is a lot where we

1655
01:40:01,640 --> 01:40:04,880
Speaker 1: try and do the best we can. It's not our fault,

1656
01:40:04,920 --> 01:40:06,200
Speaker 1: and it's not you know what I mean, you know,

1657
01:40:06,680 --> 01:40:08,280
Speaker 1: you know, And he told me, listen, you can go

1658
01:40:08,320 --> 01:40:10,280
Speaker 1: back to Tijuana, or you can go in the United

1659
01:40:10,320 --> 01:40:12,320
Speaker 1: States or do whatever you want. But if I pick

1660
01:40:12,360 --> 01:40:15,040
Speaker 1: you up outside of this area, you go straight to deportation,

1661
01:40:15,120 --> 01:40:17,720
Speaker 1: that's the bottom line. But if you stay here, you

1662
01:40:17,880 --> 01:40:20,640
Speaker 1: get to be picked up and processed and you'll have

1663
01:40:20,680 --> 01:40:26,440
Speaker 1: a chance to fight for your asylum. So again, excellent information.

1664
01:40:26,720 --> 01:40:29,759
Speaker 1: With the exception of even they don't know the process

1665
01:40:29,800 --> 01:40:33,080
Speaker 1: because you don't get to fight for asylum and detention

1666
01:40:33,560 --> 01:40:37,840
Speaker 1: and detention they release you on your recognizance and then

1667
01:40:38,360 --> 01:40:39,920
Speaker 1: later on you fight for asylum.

1668
01:40:40,040 --> 01:40:41,600
Speaker 8: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, so.

1669
01:40:42,439 --> 01:40:46,439
Speaker 1: And that's a misconception because everybody is saying. Everybody that

1670
01:40:46,479 --> 01:40:48,320
Speaker 1: I spoke to initially said yeah, you can fight for

1671
01:40:48,360 --> 01:40:50,960
Speaker 1: an asylum right in here, but it's not true. So

1672
01:40:52,280 --> 01:40:54,840
Speaker 1: but anyhow, so and then I spoke to a couple

1673
01:40:54,880 --> 01:40:56,920
Speaker 1: of National guardsmen, a couple of kids that in the

1674
01:40:56,960 --> 01:41:01,680
Speaker 1: early twenties from New York, from New York, and uh,

1675
01:41:01,880 --> 01:41:04,040
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, just just a couple of kids.

1676
01:41:04,040 --> 01:41:07,040
Speaker 1: We started talking about hunting, We started talking about you know,

1677
01:41:07,280 --> 01:41:10,880
Speaker 1: fishing and stuff like that, and they were, you know,

1678
01:41:10,960 --> 01:41:12,960
Speaker 1: what do you expect. You know, they're doing their job

1679
01:41:14,040 --> 01:41:17,760
Speaker 1: and they're human beings doing what humans beings do. So

1680
01:41:18,640 --> 01:41:21,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I can absolutely sympathize and understand, you know,

1681
01:41:21,920 --> 01:41:25,360
Speaker 1: these guys' jobs. My only beef is like, do you

1682
01:41:25,439 --> 01:41:27,639
Speaker 1: have to be the I mean, yes, you're pissed. Yes,

1683
01:41:27,680 --> 01:41:30,280
Speaker 1: it's a lot of work. Yes it's frustrating, Yes it

1684
01:41:30,320 --> 01:41:32,479
Speaker 1: feels like your country is invaded. Blah bah blah, we

1685
01:41:32,520 --> 01:41:36,519
Speaker 1: get all that, but is you being mean, rude or

1686
01:41:36,800 --> 01:41:40,120
Speaker 1: downright evil? Is that going to change anything? It's not.

1687
01:41:40,920 --> 01:41:44,720
Speaker 11: These guys went through flicking the Amazon. I mean, at

1688
01:41:44,720 --> 01:41:46,320
Speaker 11: some point I swum with a crocodile.

1689
01:41:46,360 --> 01:41:48,439
Speaker 1: I didn't even know the crocodiles around. I'm just saying,

1690
01:41:48,920 --> 01:41:55,120
Speaker 1: it's so weird that they're educated and they're informed, yet

1691
01:41:55,200 --> 01:41:58,680
Speaker 1: they still have that attitude. It's just like, you know

1692
01:41:58,680 --> 01:41:59,639
Speaker 1: what I mean, it doesn't it.

1693
01:41:59,560 --> 01:42:02,960
Speaker 8: Doesn't, Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't help. And like like

1694
01:42:03,120 --> 01:42:05,240
Speaker 8: it doesn't matter what you think about policy, Like if

1695
01:42:05,240 --> 01:42:08,160
Speaker 8: there's a baby crying because it has no.

1696
01:42:08,120 --> 01:42:11,519
Speaker 1: They get cold. They became cold hearted, and it sucks

1697
01:42:11,520 --> 01:42:13,719
Speaker 1: because again I spoke to this guy from San Diego,

1698
01:42:13,760 --> 01:42:17,360
Speaker 1: which I really appreciate his you know sort of you know,

1699
01:42:17,400 --> 01:42:20,599
Speaker 1: he's he was very forward with me, and I appreciate

1700
01:42:20,640 --> 01:42:22,960
Speaker 1: that because it probably doesn't get to talk to anybody

1701
01:42:23,000 --> 01:42:27,840
Speaker 1: because nobody speaks English. So and then the idea is,

1702
01:42:27,880 --> 01:42:32,240
Speaker 1: you know, they're frustrated. They're with the system. They're frustrated

1703
01:42:32,280 --> 01:42:35,160
Speaker 1: with the with the capacity, with with the with the

1704
01:42:35,240 --> 01:42:38,920
Speaker 1: with the positions they're put in. Okay, I absolutely sympathize.

1705
01:42:39,160 --> 01:42:41,400
Speaker 1: You cannot go wrong with that. I mean, I mean

1706
01:42:41,439 --> 01:42:43,800
Speaker 1: it's you have every right to to to to to

1707
01:42:43,880 --> 01:42:47,559
Speaker 1: be that way. Again, my beef is, why do you

1708
01:42:47,880 --> 01:42:52,599
Speaker 1: like good morning? A few, good afternoon, a few, good night,

1709
01:42:52,680 --> 01:42:56,200
Speaker 1: a few like like what it becomes so sad. It's

1710
01:42:56,240 --> 01:43:00,320
Speaker 1: just like, you know, loses it's importance. Even the war

1711
01:43:00,479 --> 01:43:03,479
Speaker 1: is no longer important, you know what I mean. So yeah,

1712
01:43:03,520 --> 01:43:04,960
Speaker 1: it's just too much, so much.

1713
01:43:05,520 --> 01:43:09,519
Speaker 8: It's very dehumanizings and it gets human.

1714
01:43:10,160 --> 01:43:15,120
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, And I mean eventually I got inspired by

1715
01:43:15,160 --> 01:43:17,120
Speaker 1: David and Caesar, and I think they did a freaking

1716
01:43:17,160 --> 01:43:19,719
Speaker 1: amazing job. I mean, I just it was a shock

1717
01:43:19,760 --> 01:43:23,679
Speaker 1: in my system to see the contrast between I think

1718
01:43:23,720 --> 01:43:30,200
Speaker 1: it's the biggest necessary contrast in that specific place. You

1719
01:43:30,320 --> 01:43:34,639
Speaker 1: need to see the two sides of the American spirit.

1720
01:43:35,200 --> 01:43:38,280
Speaker 1: Right there. You have volunteers saying a few to the system,

1721
01:43:38,560 --> 01:43:41,160
Speaker 1: and you have borders men saying a few to the system,

1722
01:43:41,200 --> 01:43:42,559
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like you know, it's it's

1723
01:43:42,600 --> 01:43:47,000
Speaker 1: just a huge contrast, and that's what really gives hope

1724
01:43:47,040 --> 01:43:51,160
Speaker 1: for anything going forward. So I appreciate it. I don't

1725
01:43:51,160 --> 01:43:54,439
Speaker 1: think David and Caesar really understand how important what they're doing.

1726
01:43:54,520 --> 01:43:58,960
Speaker 1: It's extremely important it's very valuable. So to me personally,

1727
01:43:59,000 --> 01:44:03,400
Speaker 1: it's just the shaka, all the initial shock. I just

1728
01:44:03,439 --> 01:44:05,640
Speaker 1: went away really quickly because I saw tools and I

1729
01:44:05,680 --> 01:44:07,720
Speaker 1: saw David, and I knew what's going on because I

1730
01:44:07,800 --> 01:44:13,720
Speaker 1: volunteered in shelters in LA. In Los Angeles, I volunteered

1731
01:44:13,960 --> 01:44:17,760
Speaker 1: at the mission down at uh you know, downtown LA.

1732
01:44:17,920 --> 01:44:20,599
Speaker 1: You know on schied Row. If you hear of skid Row,

1733
01:44:20,680 --> 01:44:23,080
Speaker 1: I've volunteered there. And I mean, I know very well

1734
01:44:23,120 --> 01:44:27,320
Speaker 1: what homelessness looks like. So I've done Christmas service, I've

1735
01:44:27,320 --> 01:44:31,439
Speaker 1: done food service. Automatically, when I saw David, I just

1736
01:44:31,479 --> 01:44:33,840
Speaker 1: completely kicked in and I it was a natural thing

1737
01:44:33,880 --> 01:44:36,920
Speaker 1: for me to jump aboard and help. Uh. And then

1738
01:44:38,760 --> 01:44:41,240
Speaker 1: again I couldn't sleep. Early in the morning, like four

1739
01:44:41,320 --> 01:44:44,120
Speaker 1: or five, I started seeing some border patrolment coming in

1740
01:44:44,560 --> 01:44:47,400
Speaker 1: and right away the huffing and pufflin starts. You know

1741
01:44:47,400 --> 01:44:49,759
Speaker 1: what I mean, the traveling and all that business. Okay,

1742
01:44:50,720 --> 01:44:55,120
Speaker 1: and Uh initially I mean, I again I hate to

1743
01:44:55,200 --> 01:44:58,200
Speaker 1: use the word I, but I helped organize the crowd

1744
01:44:58,240 --> 01:45:02,200
Speaker 1: a little bit because the were fighting because they were

1745
01:45:02,600 --> 01:45:08,000
Speaker 1: the PP was VP was picking up UH people that

1746
01:45:08,000 --> 01:45:11,400
Speaker 1: have been there that they're just arrived, they're leaving the

1747
01:45:11,520 --> 01:45:13,000
Speaker 1: people that were there longer.

1748
01:45:13,680 --> 01:45:13,880
Speaker 9: You know.

1749
01:45:14,000 --> 01:45:16,920
Speaker 1: For the ones that were that I stayed with, were

1750
01:45:16,960 --> 01:45:20,679
Speaker 1: there for four days, they didn't get picked up, and

1751
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:25,800
Speaker 1: so that's a logistical issue, and people were just not

1752
01:45:25,800 --> 01:45:28,880
Speaker 1: being organized. So we did the line demarcation line. Those

1753
01:45:28,920 --> 01:45:30,720
Speaker 1: who were here for three days, they need to be

1754
01:45:30,760 --> 01:45:34,920
Speaker 1: here two days. One day. We did that, and then

1755
01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:37,840
Speaker 1: the first border patrolment that showed up on a g

1756
01:45:38,560 --> 01:45:42,200
Speaker 1: sorry yelling at me, you're doing our job. Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry,

1757
01:45:42,240 --> 01:45:45,519
Speaker 1: I backed up. I backed up. I minded my business.

1758
01:45:45,720 --> 01:45:49,719
Speaker 1: And then another border patrolment tells me, hey, listen, listen, listen,

1759
01:45:49,880 --> 01:45:51,599
Speaker 1: I needed to do forty seven on the side.

1760
01:45:51,640 --> 01:45:52,719
Speaker 11: Forty seven on the side.

1761
01:45:53,000 --> 01:45:57,559
Speaker 1: I need to Yeah. I'm like, what's going on here? Okay,

1762
01:45:58,040 --> 01:46:00,599
Speaker 1: I mean again, I dropped my ego. I don't care

1763
01:46:00,720 --> 01:46:03,599
Speaker 1: as long as these guys get a chance to get through,

1764
01:46:03,880 --> 01:46:06,679
Speaker 1: because there was a lot of frustration where they're picking

1765
01:46:06,720 --> 01:46:09,880
Speaker 1: up people random and they're picking up leaving people that

1766
01:46:09,960 --> 01:46:12,560
Speaker 1: are been there for a long time. You had families

1767
01:46:12,560 --> 01:46:15,839
Speaker 1: that did not want to be separated, you had families

1768
01:46:15,840 --> 01:46:18,000
Speaker 1: that have been there longer, and you had you know,

1769
01:46:18,120 --> 01:46:21,519
Speaker 1: so it's just a huge miss missmash of situations and

1770
01:46:21,600 --> 01:46:27,200
Speaker 1: you know so, uh yeah, I mean eventually, on on

1771
01:46:26,120 --> 01:46:29,280
Speaker 1: on on the next day, early in the morning, we

1772
01:46:29,360 --> 01:46:32,040
Speaker 1: did some organizing and it seemed to me that we

1773
01:46:32,040 --> 01:46:35,599
Speaker 1: were much more fluid and and and the border patrolman

1774
01:46:35,720 --> 01:46:37,920
Speaker 1: filled up the bus and it happened to be one

1775
01:46:37,960 --> 01:46:42,120
Speaker 1: of them, one of the people that were picked up. Yeah, anyhow, so.

1776
01:46:43,680 --> 01:46:45,439
Speaker 8: But what a story? What did journey?

1777
01:46:46,120 --> 01:46:46,320
Speaker 6: Right?

1778
01:46:46,400 --> 01:46:48,559
Speaker 1: It's insane. I'm still processing, man.

1779
01:46:48,800 --> 01:46:49,320
Speaker 3: Of course.

1780
01:46:49,439 --> 01:46:53,240
Speaker 8: I mean that's a traumatic experience. And yeah, it's just

1781
01:46:53,240 --> 01:46:56,800
Speaker 8: I guess one story. And like you said, there are thousands.

1782
01:46:56,360 --> 01:46:59,719
Speaker 11: Of them, thousands, thousands, all.

1783
01:46:59,680 --> 01:47:01,360
Speaker 8: Right, that's we were going to cut it off today

1784
01:47:01,479 --> 01:47:03,800
Speaker 8: and we will pick up again tomorrow to hear more

1785
01:47:03,840 --> 01:47:05,720
Speaker 8: about any of his journey, how he's found himself in

1786
01:47:05,760 --> 01:47:08,720
Speaker 8: the United States, where he's going, and where he is now.

1787
01:47:08,880 --> 01:47:26,680
Speaker 8: Thank you so much. I wanted to ask. So one

1788
01:47:26,720 --> 01:47:29,360
Speaker 8: of the people on the corner is Emmett. Emmett had

1789
01:47:29,360 --> 01:47:33,000
Speaker 8: helped build some other shelters. You may not know. And

1790
01:47:33,120 --> 01:47:36,800
Speaker 8: most there are three camps. Maybe David shaddis with you,

1791
01:47:37,560 --> 01:47:39,120
Speaker 8: similar to the one that you were in. There are

1792
01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:43,400
Speaker 8: three in different locations. Some of them are even colder

1793
01:47:43,640 --> 01:47:48,479
Speaker 8: than the one that you've stayed in, and volunteers including

1794
01:47:48,479 --> 01:47:53,240
Speaker 8: myself included Emmett, had built shelters. Emmett, perhaps you could

1795
01:47:53,240 --> 01:47:56,559
Speaker 8: describe like how you sort of decided to do that

1796
01:47:56,600 --> 01:48:00,120
Speaker 8: and came up with the shelter design that you came

1797
01:48:00,160 --> 01:48:00,519
Speaker 8: up with.

1798
01:48:01,400 --> 01:48:03,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, definitely, And I just just want to say I'm

1799
01:48:03,880 --> 01:48:08,680
Speaker 9: processing also a most is also hearing your story and appreciating,

1800
01:48:08,760 --> 01:48:11,679
Speaker 9: like for all of us coming to build shelters, it's

1801
01:48:11,720 --> 01:48:14,880
Speaker 9: it's it's realizing there's all these stories that we're are

1802
01:48:14,920 --> 01:48:18,479
Speaker 9: not knowing, and you know, all of us are these

1803
01:48:18,479 --> 01:48:22,640
Speaker 9: lives that are so independent individual and showing up and

1804
01:48:23,040 --> 01:48:26,320
Speaker 9: meeting folks who've been through whatever they have been and

1805
01:48:28,680 --> 01:48:31,000
Speaker 9: it like does it does stuff to us all?

1806
01:48:31,040 --> 01:48:31,200
Speaker 1: You know?

1807
01:48:31,240 --> 01:48:32,800
Speaker 9: And I think I'm hearing you right now. I'm just

1808
01:48:32,880 --> 01:48:35,880
Speaker 9: really processing kind of what you're saying. And I hope

1809
01:48:35,920 --> 01:48:38,519
Speaker 9: many people hear how you're framing all this. Guys really

1810
01:48:38,520 --> 01:48:41,719
Speaker 9: appreciate how you're framing the story and how you're sharing

1811
01:48:42,360 --> 01:48:46,120
Speaker 9: both your perspective but also what it means to just

1812
01:48:46,160 --> 01:48:47,760
Speaker 9: be confused to think.

1813
01:48:48,000 --> 01:48:49,080
Speaker 1: So for for me.

1814
01:48:49,120 --> 01:48:52,080
Speaker 9: Like I've I guess I felt so even after many

1815
01:48:52,160 --> 01:48:53,240
Speaker 9: years of working.

1816
01:48:54,760 --> 01:48:55,400
Speaker 1: In this space.

1817
01:48:55,520 --> 01:48:59,280
Speaker 9: Just so confused by how or by how CVP is

1818
01:48:59,320 --> 01:49:02,559
Speaker 9: treating people in the in the oasis in this desert

1819
01:49:02,640 --> 01:49:09,120
Speaker 9: right now. But uh, basically it's winter time now in

1820
01:49:09,120 --> 01:49:14,799
Speaker 9: in in California, and for the last several months people

1821
01:49:15,640 --> 01:49:18,600
Speaker 9: have been kept overnight in in the desert on in

1822
01:49:18,600 --> 01:49:23,479
Speaker 9: the borderlands, which has been brutal, and it has been

1823
01:49:23,600 --> 01:49:26,160
Speaker 9: terrible and and and any humane have.

1824
01:49:26,240 --> 01:49:27,959
Speaker 1: First cup to keep people of the desert.

1825
01:49:28,160 --> 01:49:31,479
Speaker 9: But as it became winter, it became deadly and the

1826
01:49:31,640 --> 01:49:38,040
Speaker 9: risk of extreme hypothermia events for for hundreds of people

1827
01:49:38,040 --> 01:49:40,960
Speaker 9: became so severe that a lot of a lot of

1828
01:49:41,000 --> 01:49:44,520
Speaker 9: our you know, day in, day out, uh work to

1829
01:49:44,560 --> 01:49:46,960
Speaker 9: make sure people had food and if there were babies

1830
01:49:47,000 --> 01:49:49,280
Speaker 9: that they were taking care of as needed, or if

1831
01:49:49,479 --> 01:49:52,160
Speaker 9: if folks had specific health issues that we could show

1832
01:49:52,200 --> 01:49:55,840
Speaker 9: it for them. But but the thought of just doing

1833
01:49:55,880 --> 01:49:58,760
Speaker 9: that and hope, you know, bringing as many blankets as

1834
01:49:58,760 --> 01:50:01,880
Speaker 9: we could. Uh, We're bringing up blankets and tents and

1835
01:50:01,960 --> 01:50:06,000
Speaker 9: tarps things keep people off the ground, you know, basically

1836
01:50:06,080 --> 01:50:08,639
Speaker 9: looking in our basements and asking all of our friends, like, hey,

1837
01:50:09,600 --> 01:50:13,280
Speaker 9: we're looking behind every gas station for for for boxes

1838
01:50:13,640 --> 01:50:17,040
Speaker 9: of cardboard or whatever it is. But that just didn't

1839
01:50:17,040 --> 01:50:17,559
Speaker 9: seem enough.

1840
01:50:17,600 --> 01:50:17,920
Speaker 1: It didn't.

1841
01:50:17,960 --> 01:50:20,320
Speaker 9: It seemed like we were actually doing a harm to

1842
01:50:20,360 --> 01:50:22,719
Speaker 9: be to be the ones who had seen this and

1843
01:50:22,920 --> 01:50:25,880
Speaker 9: something we deal with israelizing. There's so many folks who

1844
01:50:25,920 --> 01:50:28,000
Speaker 9: just don't know what's going on. So for us to

1845
01:50:28,040 --> 01:50:31,800
Speaker 9: be a community seeing this and not not taking to

1846
01:50:31,840 --> 01:50:33,760
Speaker 9: the next the next level and its still I feel

1847
01:50:33,800 --> 01:50:36,599
Speaker 9: this way, but it felt like we were not doing

1848
01:50:39,040 --> 01:50:40,880
Speaker 9: or we were actual doing a harm by not by

1849
01:50:40,880 --> 01:50:44,879
Speaker 9: not kind of addressing the winter as it was happening.

1850
01:50:44,880 --> 01:50:47,840
Speaker 9: So the idea of building shelters was was to try

1851
01:50:47,880 --> 01:50:52,680
Speaker 9: to basically do do something more than just bringing out

1852
01:50:52,880 --> 01:50:56,200
Speaker 9: supplies and letting people you know, vent for themselves, but

1853
01:50:56,280 --> 01:50:59,080
Speaker 9: creating something that might actually create more of a long

1854
01:50:59,160 --> 01:51:03,280
Speaker 9: term safety. And then again, I mean this is this

1855
01:51:03,320 --> 01:51:06,799
Speaker 9: is these are detention sites. We are we are working

1856
01:51:07,200 --> 01:51:12,640
Speaker 9: as volunteers inside of a basically informal detention site that

1857
01:51:12,720 --> 01:51:15,640
Speaker 9: CBP is operating. So it's a very confusing for us

1858
01:51:15,680 --> 01:51:18,559
Speaker 9: to know, you know, we're here trying to be with

1859
01:51:18,640 --> 01:51:21,280
Speaker 9: people directly, trying to see what people are wanting and

1860
01:51:21,320 --> 01:51:24,519
Speaker 9: needing and what is their their needs, but we're also

1861
01:51:24,640 --> 01:51:30,840
Speaker 9: kind of navigating around this very erratic system that is

1862
01:51:31,240 --> 01:51:36,760
Speaker 9: sometimes denying us entry to these sites, sometimes trying to

1863
01:51:36,800 --> 01:51:39,960
Speaker 9: have us do things for them, and other times kind

1864
01:51:39,960 --> 01:51:43,120
Speaker 9: of allowing us to be there and you know, you know,

1865
01:51:43,160 --> 01:51:46,519
Speaker 9: bringing food because it serves them, serves VP for us

1866
01:51:46,560 --> 01:51:50,320
Speaker 9: to keep people alive. But that's a really confusing process.

1867
01:51:50,360 --> 01:51:52,800
Speaker 9: So anyways, there was a lot of talk going on

1868
01:51:52,840 --> 01:51:55,960
Speaker 9: about making shelters that people have been assembling palts, and

1869
01:51:56,040 --> 01:51:59,040
Speaker 9: one day I was just talking with some of the

1870
01:51:59,080 --> 01:52:01,640
Speaker 9: other organizers and we're thinking, well, 't's do this. I'll

1871
01:52:01,680 --> 01:52:05,679
Speaker 9: come back tomorrow and we will start. And so with

1872
01:52:05,680 --> 01:52:08,400
Speaker 9: with some volunteers from the Dollar Lunch Club from UC

1873
01:52:08,560 --> 01:52:13,760
Speaker 9: San Diego, we set out and to the campsite we

1874
01:52:13,840 --> 01:52:17,479
Speaker 9: call Tower one seven seven and started building this. And

1875
01:52:17,520 --> 01:52:21,880
Speaker 9: immediately kind of as you're saying, also, Amos, we had

1876
01:52:22,040 --> 01:52:26,920
Speaker 9: about a team of ten people from Columbia and Kyrghistan

1877
01:52:27,400 --> 01:52:29,160
Speaker 9: helping us build this.

1878
01:52:29,160 --> 01:52:30,040
Speaker 3: This shelter.

1879
01:52:31,360 --> 01:52:40,200
Speaker 9: From palettes, cardboard, plastic, sheeting, tarts, and James and myself

1880
01:52:40,320 --> 01:52:42,639
Speaker 9: and some other folks had been talking the night before

1881
01:52:43,160 --> 01:52:45,680
Speaker 9: what are the different shelters and using all of our

1882
01:52:46,160 --> 01:52:49,040
Speaker 9: outdoor experience, worlderness experience and kind of putting it all

1883
01:52:49,040 --> 01:52:52,080
Speaker 9: together and having kind of a roundtable discussion like well,

1884
01:52:52,120 --> 01:52:54,960
Speaker 9: I've seen this work before, I've I've done this before.

1885
01:52:55,000 --> 01:52:56,720
Speaker 9: I mean, this might work, might be, this might be

1886
01:52:56,720 --> 01:52:58,920
Speaker 9: a nice way of using these palettes, trying to find

1887
01:52:58,920 --> 01:53:03,480
Speaker 9: something that'll be stable to uh, you know withstand wind conditions,

1888
01:53:03,920 --> 01:53:07,439
Speaker 9: it being kind of you know, resource smart, making sure

1889
01:53:07,439 --> 01:53:10,240
Speaker 9: we're not over using whatever would we have, and some

1890
01:53:10,280 --> 01:53:13,160
Speaker 9: sort of super intricate design and also something that we

1891
01:53:13,200 --> 01:53:16,000
Speaker 9: could we could assemble quite quickly and would be versatile,

1892
01:53:16,080 --> 01:53:18,640
Speaker 9: so something we could do in different different settings. And

1893
01:53:18,720 --> 01:53:22,960
Speaker 9: also building something and building a design that wouldn't wouldn't

1894
01:53:23,000 --> 01:53:25,960
Speaker 9: be super hard for people to use. So yeah, so

1895
01:53:26,080 --> 01:53:27,240
Speaker 9: it just felt like we were kind of just like

1896
01:53:27,320 --> 01:53:28,960
Speaker 9: kind of putting putting our herds together. And that's what

1897
01:53:29,000 --> 01:53:32,160
Speaker 9: we came up with was basically this super shelter that

1898
01:53:32,320 --> 01:53:36,559
Speaker 9: was has basically a backbone of six palettes and maybe

1899
01:53:36,600 --> 01:53:39,760
Speaker 9: I don't know, James, it's possible to like some some

1900
01:53:40,479 --> 01:53:44,760
Speaker 9: photos or what whatnot, but putting together basically great, right, Yeah,

1901
01:53:44,800 --> 01:53:48,720
Speaker 9: some sort of ur like structure that can be kind

1902
01:53:48,720 --> 01:53:51,080
Speaker 9: of designed or can be changed as it wouldn't be

1903
01:53:51,160 --> 01:53:54,120
Speaker 9: and especially something that anybody who's using it gets to

1904
01:53:54,160 --> 01:53:57,200
Speaker 9: actually have mimic their own their own home, their own setup,

1905
01:53:57,280 --> 01:53:59,000
Speaker 9: So it's not something that we're kind of dictating how

1906
01:53:59,000 --> 01:54:01,880
Speaker 9: it needs to be used. But yeah, we've got to

1907
01:54:01,960 --> 01:54:05,520
Speaker 9: had a really positive experience and a lot of expertise

1908
01:54:05,600 --> 01:54:10,000
Speaker 9: from folks from from Kyrgyzstan to kind of lead the way.

1909
01:54:10,080 --> 01:54:13,600
Speaker 9: So we brought tools and other folks who were you

1910
01:54:13,600 --> 01:54:20,400
Speaker 9: going to use it? Basically creditd them created shelter themselves. Yeah,

1911
01:54:20,439 --> 01:54:21,640
Speaker 9: so that that was that was that, that was our

1912
01:54:21,680 --> 01:54:24,600
Speaker 9: first experience and yeah, and.

1913
01:54:24,680 --> 01:54:27,360
Speaker 8: Most his point was really a good one and it's

1914
01:54:27,400 --> 01:54:30,240
Speaker 8: one I'd considered too, like it it's quite Yeah, I

1915
01:54:30,240 --> 01:54:32,600
Speaker 8: don't want to compare the difficulties we encounter as volunteers

1916
01:54:32,640 --> 01:54:35,440
Speaker 8: to the difficulties so almost has just encountered, has just

1917
01:54:35,720 --> 01:54:38,320
Speaker 8: kind of shared with us in his journey because they're

1918
01:54:38,320 --> 01:54:40,920
Speaker 8: not the same, but like, it can be quite different.

1919
01:54:40,960 --> 01:54:43,400
Speaker 8: I speak quite a few languages, but still with large

1920
01:54:43,400 --> 01:54:45,120
Speaker 8: groups of people who you can't speak to, and do

1921
01:54:45,120 --> 01:54:47,560
Speaker 8: you want to connect? You want to be like what's

1922
01:54:47,560 --> 01:54:51,120
Speaker 8: happening to you is it's it's disgusting and disgraceful and

1923
01:54:51,240 --> 01:54:54,240
Speaker 8: it's not me. I'm not I don't want it to happen,

1924
01:54:54,560 --> 01:54:57,440
Speaker 8: and it shouldn't be. And I want to be in

1925
01:54:57,480 --> 01:54:59,680
Speaker 8: community with you as much as I can. And so

1926
01:55:00,520 --> 01:55:03,400
Speaker 8: when we don't have that language, the way that we

1927
01:55:03,440 --> 01:55:07,000
Speaker 8: can connect. One of the ways that we can connect

1928
01:55:07,560 --> 01:55:10,760
Speaker 8: is to grab a hammer or its screwdriver or something

1929
01:55:10,800 --> 01:55:11,520
Speaker 8: and stop building.

1930
01:55:11,680 --> 01:55:13,640
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. You're so right. You're

1931
01:55:13,760 --> 01:55:17,120
Speaker 1: so right, James, you are so on pointed. No, I mean,

1932
01:55:17,160 --> 01:55:21,800
Speaker 1: you know, it's just seeing that that real B drill

1933
01:55:22,080 --> 01:55:24,240
Speaker 1: was like heaven to me. I mean, I swear not

1934
01:55:24,320 --> 01:55:27,320
Speaker 1: to give you know, any brands or whatever. I'm just

1935
01:55:27,360 --> 01:55:32,160
Speaker 1: saying it's not It's not my favorite brand for sure,

1936
01:55:32,400 --> 01:55:36,920
Speaker 1: But but but you really, really, I mean truly like

1937
01:55:37,040 --> 01:55:39,800
Speaker 1: you guys say, I mean, it's just such an universal

1938
01:55:40,480 --> 01:55:44,600
Speaker 1: sort of language. Like as men and as women and

1939
01:55:44,640 --> 01:55:47,520
Speaker 1: as people, we want to build, we want to protect,

1940
01:55:47,520 --> 01:55:49,680
Speaker 1: we want we want to I mean, I'm taking this

1941
01:55:49,800 --> 01:55:53,440
Speaker 1: journey to come to my kids and show them support

1942
01:55:53,520 --> 01:55:57,600
Speaker 1: and safety and protect. And it's happening, you know right now,

1943
01:55:57,680 --> 01:55:59,960
Speaker 1: I'm talking. I was talking to them earlier, and you know,

1944
01:56:00,040 --> 01:56:02,400
Speaker 1: they're excited to see their dad soon and you know,

1945
01:56:02,640 --> 01:56:04,600
Speaker 1: just that that feeling of warmth, and I mean, this

1946
01:56:04,640 --> 01:56:06,160
Speaker 1: is what we do. This is what we do. And

1947
01:56:06,160 --> 01:56:08,680
Speaker 1: then if you want to narrow it down and break

1948
01:56:08,720 --> 01:56:10,800
Speaker 1: it down to the basics, it's just what it is.

1949
01:56:10,840 --> 01:56:14,640
Speaker 1: It's the human level, it's the human condition. I mean really,

1950
01:56:14,720 --> 01:56:16,680
Speaker 1: so these guys are going to go through this pain

1951
01:56:16,920 --> 01:56:20,080
Speaker 1: for what I mean, clearly they're going through you know, worse,

1952
01:56:20,240 --> 01:56:22,560
Speaker 1: worser things. And then that's the whole point, that's what

1953
01:56:22,880 --> 01:56:27,000
Speaker 1: they're trying to do. So and then, uh, before I forget,

1954
01:56:27,040 --> 01:56:28,760
Speaker 1: and then I don't hope, I hope my phone doesn't

1955
01:56:29,000 --> 01:56:31,640
Speaker 1: you know, die on me. Let me just give you

1956
01:56:31,680 --> 01:56:35,040
Speaker 1: the detention. If you guys haven't, let me give you Yeah, yeah,

1957
01:56:35,640 --> 01:56:40,200
Speaker 1: before I you know, so basically on I think it

1958
01:56:40,240 --> 01:56:40,760
Speaker 1: was Monday.

1959
01:56:40,840 --> 01:56:46,720
Speaker 13: We we uh get rounded up to what is can

1960
01:56:46,760 --> 01:56:53,080
Speaker 13: easily be compared to the cattle I wrench cattle kind

1961
01:56:53,080 --> 01:56:56,200
Speaker 13: of process where you know, here, take off your.

1962
01:56:56,320 --> 01:56:59,720
Speaker 1: Your your belts and everything that's familiar, but you know

1963
01:57:00,040 --> 01:57:02,520
Speaker 1: it's a little extra. The bus driver is cussing a

1964
01:57:02,560 --> 01:57:05,840
Speaker 1: t you like it's nobody's business, and and and you know,

1965
01:57:06,000 --> 01:57:08,000
Speaker 1: gratuitous humiliation.

1966
01:57:08,360 --> 01:57:11,000
Speaker 11: And you know, maybe you have one of them is nice.

1967
01:57:10,760 --> 01:57:13,800
Speaker 1: But the rest are just you know, absolutely want to

1968
01:57:13,920 --> 01:57:18,680
Speaker 1: just carry you down as much as they can. And anyhow,

1969
01:57:18,720 --> 01:57:22,280
Speaker 1: so we're lined up, we're onto this bus that's behind

1970
01:57:22,960 --> 01:57:23,760
Speaker 1: the camp.

1971
01:57:23,560 --> 01:57:25,960
Speaker 11: Closer to Highway eighty I believe Highway eighty.

1972
01:57:26,040 --> 01:57:30,400
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and uh uh and basically we're lined up,

1973
01:57:30,840 --> 01:57:36,040
Speaker 1: we're tagged, we're uh, basically stripped of everything that could

1974
01:57:36,080 --> 01:57:40,160
Speaker 1: be quote unquote dangerous. We're left with only one shirt

1975
01:57:40,720 --> 01:57:44,600
Speaker 1: in the middle of that cold morning. And uh doesn't

1976
01:57:44,640 --> 01:57:47,560
Speaker 1: man and man doesn't matter, man woman. Everybody is treated

1977
01:57:47,560 --> 01:57:51,240
Speaker 1: as saying I appreciate their their equality on that issue.

1978
01:57:51,600 --> 01:57:55,839
Speaker 1: Uh So, and then we are on a bus journey

1979
01:57:55,960 --> 01:57:58,040
Speaker 1: that's about an hour and a half, maybe two hours

1980
01:57:58,240 --> 01:58:02,840
Speaker 1: anymore to the Uh. I'm trying to remember this very

1981
01:58:02,840 --> 01:58:05,480
Speaker 1: well because it's just, you know, it's important. I guess

1982
01:58:05,800 --> 01:58:11,880
Speaker 1: San Diego, Uh, the San Diego Sorting Facility, san Diego

1983
01:58:11,920 --> 01:58:16,920
Speaker 1: District Sorting Facility a k A. M c U, that's

1984
01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:21,120
Speaker 1: what we call it. And basically, uh, you know, your

1985
01:58:21,200 --> 01:58:24,760
Speaker 1: your stuff is sorted and anything that needs to be

1986
01:58:24,800 --> 01:58:28,600
Speaker 1: thrown with a thrown away and you're given you become

1987
01:58:28,800 --> 01:58:32,720
Speaker 1: a let me be clear, you become a subject. You're

1988
01:58:32,720 --> 01:58:36,040
Speaker 1: a subject. Now you're not an alien. You're a subject. James,

1989
01:58:36,080 --> 01:58:39,480
Speaker 1: make sure you understand this. You're a subject, sir. Let's

1990
01:58:39,520 --> 01:58:43,720
Speaker 1: be clear about the naming structure. You are a subject,

1991
01:58:44,080 --> 01:58:49,080
Speaker 1: all right. So I'm given a subject number and yeah, exactly.

1992
01:58:49,120 --> 01:58:51,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't believe in this day and age,

1993
01:58:51,960 --> 01:58:54,760
Speaker 1: I got used to the whole alien thing, you know,

1994
01:58:54,840 --> 01:58:59,920
Speaker 1: alien number, but now it's a subject number. So anyhow,

1995
01:59:00,040 --> 01:59:02,400
Speaker 1: so we're done. We're going through that. And then you

1996
01:59:02,400 --> 01:59:05,280
Speaker 1: you know, you just look at people and the daisiness

1997
01:59:05,280 --> 01:59:09,360
Speaker 1: and the confusion and confusion elders, women, babies. It's just

1998
01:59:09,520 --> 01:59:12,160
Speaker 1: heart taking. And again you had a couple of military

1999
01:59:12,920 --> 01:59:15,920
Speaker 1: order performance all and acting like they're in the Marine Corps.

2000
01:59:16,000 --> 01:59:18,400
Speaker 1: They're just shouting up the right and they're like, you know,

2001
01:59:18,520 --> 01:59:22,840
Speaker 1: treating people that they were disposable. So that's right there.

2002
01:59:23,600 --> 01:59:27,839
Speaker 1: Uh anyhow so that's the they call it the intake.

2003
01:59:28,280 --> 01:59:30,880
Speaker 1: So you're you're doing the intake and you're lined up

2004
01:59:30,920 --> 01:59:36,760
Speaker 1: and you're being stripped, not striptured, searched. You're searched, and

2005
01:59:36,800 --> 01:59:40,440
Speaker 1: then your your backpack is taking away. You open it

2006
01:59:40,520 --> 01:59:41,640
Speaker 1: up in front of them as if you were at

2007
01:59:41,680 --> 01:59:43,680
Speaker 1: the airport, and then they throw away stuff.

2008
01:59:43,720 --> 01:59:47,880
Speaker 11: That's that, even though they're not what's crazy is there?

2009
01:59:48,600 --> 01:59:52,120
Speaker 1: The backpack is gonna be h zipped and they're gonna

2010
01:59:52,200 --> 01:59:54,480
Speaker 1: be tagged and put away. So I'm not sure why

2011
01:59:54,760 --> 01:59:58,520
Speaker 1: thrown away food from the backpack is going to add

2012
01:59:58,640 --> 02:00:02,160
Speaker 1: anything or anyth Some things don't make sense, but I

2013
02:00:02,200 --> 02:00:06,040
Speaker 1: guess that's what it is. So then you're you're you're

2014
02:00:06,040 --> 02:00:10,280
Speaker 1: done with the intake, your sit down inside the central

2015
02:00:10,320 --> 02:00:12,920
Speaker 1: area and you're waiting to be processed.

2016
02:00:13,560 --> 02:00:17,520
Speaker 11: Processing means fingerprints, picture.

2017
02:00:17,880 --> 02:00:21,040
Speaker 1: And then you're right down they take a copy of

2018
02:00:21,080 --> 02:00:24,360
Speaker 1: your passport and in there you write down the address

2019
02:00:24,400 --> 02:00:27,240
Speaker 1: in which you will be quote unquote released later on.

2020
02:00:27,720 --> 02:00:32,960
Speaker 1: So that's that, and then basically a couple of hours later,

2021
02:00:33,520 --> 02:00:38,080
Speaker 1: you're assigned a detention cell. It's not it's a big place,

2022
02:00:38,240 --> 02:00:40,080
Speaker 1: and it's not a cell like a small cell. It's

2023
02:00:40,080 --> 02:00:43,200
Speaker 1: probably I don't know, twenty by. I don't know. I'm

2024
02:00:43,200 --> 02:00:45,760
Speaker 1: bad with that business. But any of the point is

2025
02:00:46,000 --> 02:00:50,960
Speaker 1: we're there, we're taking to this place. I don't know, James,

2026
02:00:51,000 --> 02:00:52,760
Speaker 1: I don't know what you think of this. So so

2027
02:00:53,120 --> 02:00:59,400
Speaker 1: they don't put handcuffs on us, but they tell you

2028
02:00:59,440 --> 02:01:02,640
Speaker 1: to put your hands behind your back as you're walking.

2029
02:01:03,680 --> 02:01:04,760
Speaker 8: Yeah, very strange.

2030
02:01:05,800 --> 02:01:08,600
Speaker 1: I don't understand. What's the point of that. Like they

2031
02:01:08,640 --> 02:01:11,560
Speaker 1: insist on putting your hands as if they were handcuffed

2032
02:01:11,560 --> 02:01:15,400
Speaker 1: behind your back as you walk. It as as you're walking.

2033
02:01:15,560 --> 02:01:18,520
Speaker 1: That is a big rule. And if you don't do it,

2034
02:01:18,560 --> 02:01:21,840
Speaker 1: they get pissed at you. And I'm not gonna at you.

2035
02:01:21,960 --> 02:01:23,960
Speaker 1: I'm always testing the water. And I pissed them off

2036
02:01:24,000 --> 02:01:26,640
Speaker 1: a number of times. I did put my hands forward

2037
02:01:27,080 --> 02:01:28,880
Speaker 1: because I'm like, what what are you trying to get to?

2038
02:01:29,000 --> 02:01:32,240
Speaker 1: You know? Anyhow, so you get into your cell. Mine

2039
02:01:32,360 --> 02:01:36,760
Speaker 1: was two A right, two A yeah. Pod. I'm sorry,

2040
02:01:36,760 --> 02:01:38,120
Speaker 1: it's called they called pods.

2041
02:01:38,280 --> 02:01:38,600
Speaker 3: Pods.

2042
02:01:38,840 --> 02:01:42,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Because you know we're we're into share

2043
02:01:43,320 --> 02:01:48,680
Speaker 1: what is it, work share spaces basically pods.

2044
02:01:50,240 --> 02:01:53,320
Speaker 11: Said, yeah, we work here, we go, we work.

2045
02:01:53,960 --> 02:01:58,560
Speaker 1: So we were there. You're giving gym mats gym matts,

2046
02:01:59,000 --> 02:02:02,760
Speaker 1: and then you know, when we all put our gym

2047
02:02:02,800 --> 02:02:06,760
Speaker 1: mats on the floor, imagine there is zero space in between,

2048
02:02:07,360 --> 02:02:11,000
Speaker 1: Like the whole pod is covered with gym mats. Now

2049
02:02:11,440 --> 02:02:14,920
Speaker 1: you have to walk on gym mats basically anywhere you go.

2050
02:02:15,360 --> 02:02:17,920
Speaker 1: All right, So that's that's the fact. And then you're

2051
02:02:17,960 --> 02:02:21,080
Speaker 1: giving these what do you call them? There's the not thermos,

2052
02:02:21,120 --> 02:02:24,400
Speaker 1: the alloy foil blankets whatever.

2053
02:02:24,520 --> 02:02:27,240
Speaker 8: We have blankets, yeah, yeah, thank you.

2054
02:02:27,320 --> 02:02:30,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, those guys and they do kind of work. But

2055
02:02:31,160 --> 02:02:33,280
Speaker 1: for me, they're too small. I mean, I guess I'm

2056
02:02:33,280 --> 02:02:36,000
Speaker 1: a tall guy. I mean, I don't know. So either

2057
02:02:36,040 --> 02:02:38,160
Speaker 1: your foots are sticking out or your head is sticking

2058
02:02:38,200 --> 02:02:40,160
Speaker 1: out or whatever. And I'm not the only one. That's

2059
02:02:40,160 --> 02:02:43,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people like that. So and then AC

2060
02:02:43,360 --> 02:02:48,240
Speaker 1: is blasting full speed twenty four to seven light, full

2061
02:02:48,320 --> 02:02:52,880
Speaker 1: bright light twenty four seven and yeah, and then a

2062
02:02:52,920 --> 02:02:55,400
Speaker 1: lot of you know again, they teach this in school

2063
02:02:55,400 --> 02:02:58,720
Speaker 1: in psychology. Want to want so light twenty four to seven,

2064
02:02:59,480 --> 02:03:02,920
Speaker 1: AC freezing. I see, we're only allowed the shirt one shirt,

2065
02:03:03,240 --> 02:03:08,120
Speaker 1: one shirt. And then I'm talking about probably they have

2066
02:03:08,240 --> 02:03:13,040
Speaker 1: it on fifty five sixty sixty sixty no more than

2067
02:03:13,080 --> 02:03:15,640
Speaker 1: sixty degrees for sure, all right. And then you have

2068
02:03:15,720 --> 02:03:21,480
Speaker 1: people cold and getting sick. And then they cleaned three

2069
02:03:21,520 --> 02:03:25,000
Speaker 1: times a day to their credits where we all have

2070
02:03:25,080 --> 02:03:27,520
Speaker 1: to get out so the cleaning crew could come in.

2071
02:03:28,160 --> 02:03:31,360
Speaker 1: But here's the key. They clean at eight in the morning,

2072
02:03:32,200 --> 02:03:35,839
Speaker 1: at the at five in the afternoon, and at midnight.

2073
02:03:37,240 --> 02:03:38,080
Speaker 8: You can't sleep.

2074
02:03:38,760 --> 02:03:42,840
Speaker 14: Come on, dude, really seriously, and God forbid you ask

2075
02:03:43,200 --> 02:03:46,560
Speaker 14: God forbid you ask, because that's just not allowed, you know.

2076
02:03:46,680 --> 02:03:51,480
Speaker 14: So midnight, exactly, midnight sharp, get out people, everybody sleep,

2077
02:03:51,560 --> 02:03:53,760
Speaker 14: everybody sleep, get up, get up, get up, get out,

2078
02:03:54,160 --> 02:03:57,200
Speaker 14: and there's no again. It's it's it's you know, we

2079
02:03:57,320 --> 02:03:59,280
Speaker 14: know these tactics, we read about these.

2080
02:03:59,400 --> 02:04:01,480
Speaker 1: This is like, you know, torture in a way.

2081
02:04:01,600 --> 02:04:01,760
Speaker 6: You know.

2082
02:04:02,080 --> 02:04:04,840
Speaker 1: I bet you somewhere in the Geneva Convention there's something

2083
02:04:04,840 --> 02:04:09,440
Speaker 1: about this. I mean, I'm sure, yeah, So so, you know,

2084
02:04:09,480 --> 02:04:12,160
Speaker 1: I didn't want to create too much drama the first day, James.

2085
02:04:12,400 --> 02:04:14,680
Speaker 1: The second day I started testing the water. I'm like,

2086
02:04:14,760 --> 02:04:17,560
Speaker 1: you know, I'm being nice to everybody. Nobody speaks English,

2087
02:04:17,600 --> 02:04:19,040
Speaker 1: so I have to kind of speak up for people.

2088
02:04:19,440 --> 02:04:22,560
Speaker 1: You know, some people need to go medicine, I mean,

2089
02:04:22,560 --> 02:04:24,880
Speaker 1: you know, medicine or whatever. I speak for that whatever.

2090
02:04:25,400 --> 02:04:28,600
Speaker 1: And then some people are just don't understand when their

2091
02:04:28,720 --> 02:04:30,720
Speaker 1: name is called for it because it's misspelled. So I'll

2092
02:04:30,760 --> 02:04:33,000
Speaker 1: help for that, you know. In general, like you know,

2093
02:04:33,040 --> 02:04:37,440
Speaker 1: I literally would walk around and ask for extra blankets

2094
02:04:37,440 --> 02:04:39,280
Speaker 1: and things like that. It's all of being doing. I

2095
02:04:39,280 --> 02:04:41,240
Speaker 1: hope the video will come out and we're doing a

2096
02:04:41,240 --> 02:04:45,920
Speaker 1: few Freedom of Information Act requests. Hopefully we can get that. Yeah, yeah,

2097
02:04:46,000 --> 02:04:48,400
Speaker 1: hopefully we'll share that with you. I mean it takes.

2098
02:04:48,640 --> 02:04:50,680
Speaker 1: I mean they're gonna fight at tooth and nay, they're

2099
02:04:50,680 --> 02:04:53,920
Speaker 1: gonna fight at tooth and nail. Oh yeah, exactly, thank you,

2100
02:04:53,960 --> 02:04:58,400
Speaker 1: thank you exactly. Sonyhow so uh yeah. After the second

2101
02:04:58,520 --> 02:05:01,160
Speaker 1: day again they give you for I mean food, I

2102
02:05:01,160 --> 02:05:05,480
Speaker 1: guess food. Yeah, they give you food. The second day,

2103
02:05:06,480 --> 02:05:08,800
Speaker 1: I started asking the question, Okay, when am I going

2104
02:05:08,880 --> 02:05:12,360
Speaker 1: to get my phone call? The first person said, oh,

2105
02:05:12,600 --> 02:05:15,720
Speaker 1: I'll cast on to your request. By the end of

2106
02:05:15,720 --> 02:05:17,080
Speaker 1: the day, I've asked like three.

2107
02:05:16,920 --> 02:05:18,720
Speaker 11: Four times to three four different people.

2108
02:05:19,680 --> 02:05:26,520
Speaker 1: So the pods area is manned supervised by DSS police

2109
02:05:27,640 --> 02:05:31,160
Speaker 1: and then the processing in the central area is done

2110
02:05:31,160 --> 02:05:35,720
Speaker 1: by VP, and VP and Customs and DSS hate each other.

2111
02:05:35,800 --> 02:05:38,400
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just clear. They told me that to

2112
02:05:38,480 --> 02:05:41,520
Speaker 1: my face. They don't get along all right, Right, So

2113
02:05:43,560 --> 02:05:46,360
Speaker 1: when you were talking to DSS policicals, they're the one

2114
02:05:46,480 --> 02:05:50,200
Speaker 1: kind of the prison guards. They just don't then talk

2115
02:05:50,280 --> 02:05:52,960
Speaker 1: to VP. They don't convey the information that you're as

2116
02:05:53,000 --> 02:05:57,800
Speaker 1: a prisoner there. So that's been difficult. So you would

2117
02:05:57,840 --> 02:06:00,840
Speaker 1: want to ask to go to the or something, so

2118
02:06:01,040 --> 02:06:02,800
Speaker 1: on the way you can try to pass on then

2119
02:06:03,280 --> 02:06:05,680
Speaker 1: sony know, so I kind of located the situation. And

2120
02:06:05,720 --> 02:06:08,960
Speaker 1: then on the second day, I asked three times I

2121
02:06:09,000 --> 02:06:11,920
Speaker 1: need my phone call. They came out and told me,

2122
02:06:12,080 --> 02:06:15,680
Speaker 1: you're crazy. We don't do phone calls. Stop asking. So

2123
02:06:15,720 --> 02:06:19,520
Speaker 1: you're telling me I'm a us soil. I you know,

2124
02:06:19,560 --> 02:06:23,280
Speaker 1: I don't get to see the outdoor twenty four to seven,

2125
02:06:23,840 --> 02:06:25,480
Speaker 1: and you don't let me make a call to my

2126
02:06:25,920 --> 02:06:29,240
Speaker 1: lawyer or family. And that's when I just lost my

2127
02:06:29,240 --> 02:06:32,520
Speaker 1: my ship. So that by the end of the second day,

2128
02:06:33,040 --> 02:06:39,440
Speaker 1: I entered into a hunger strike. Wow, my body shut yeah,

2129
02:06:39,440 --> 02:06:41,839
Speaker 1: my body shut down completely. My body shut down completely.

2130
02:06:41,920 --> 02:06:45,720
Speaker 1: People were that that known me to be constantly active.

2131
02:06:45,760 --> 02:06:48,800
Speaker 1: I do I do yoga. I do I did yoga.

2132
02:06:48,920 --> 02:06:52,160
Speaker 1: Did you know? People will started following me doing activities

2133
02:06:52,160 --> 02:06:55,960
Speaker 1: and trying to be sharp, you know, stay sharp. They

2134
02:06:56,040 --> 02:06:58,920
Speaker 1: saw me shut down completely. I didn't I didn't eat

2135
02:06:59,120 --> 02:07:02,320
Speaker 1: or drink anything. I mean completely, I shut down everything,

2136
02:07:02,360 --> 02:07:07,000
Speaker 1: all systems of board. That's it. So right away my

2137
02:07:07,040 --> 02:07:10,960
Speaker 1: eyes are closed. The next day they start freaking out.

2138
02:07:11,280 --> 02:07:15,160
Speaker 1: They bringing the wheelchair, but before they you know, just

2139
02:07:15,200 --> 02:07:16,920
Speaker 1: to let you know, before they put me on the

2140
02:07:16,960 --> 02:07:20,560
Speaker 1: wheelchair with the baton. They're just hammering me to make

2141
02:07:20,600 --> 02:07:23,879
Speaker 1: sure I'm this is real their hammer. I still have bruises.

2142
02:07:24,080 --> 02:07:26,600
Speaker 1: I still have like a red dot on my chest,

2143
02:07:26,680 --> 02:07:27,240
Speaker 1: you know what I mean.

2144
02:07:27,840 --> 02:07:31,240
Speaker 11: So so yeah, I mean, you know the kindness of

2145
02:07:31,280 --> 02:07:31,680
Speaker 11: their heart.

2146
02:07:31,760 --> 02:07:35,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Again, they're very hateful because of where they are

2147
02:07:35,280 --> 02:07:41,120
Speaker 1: and what's going on. So yeah, so uh yeah, So

2148
02:07:41,160 --> 02:07:44,280
Speaker 1: I'm taking to the nurse. The nurse tells me what's

2149
02:07:44,320 --> 02:07:47,440
Speaker 1: going on. I thought, look, my body has shut down.

2150
02:07:47,880 --> 02:07:49,880
Speaker 1: My wife and kids don't know where I'm at. They

2151
02:07:49,920 --> 02:07:54,200
Speaker 1: don't know if I'm life or death or dead, and

2152
02:07:54,280 --> 02:07:57,600
Speaker 1: I just can't eat or drink or anything. Listen, sir,

2153
02:07:58,600 --> 02:08:00,240
Speaker 1: it's okay if you don't want to eat, but you

2154
02:08:00,280 --> 02:08:02,640
Speaker 1: have to drink well at least water, or we're gonna

2155
02:08:02,680 --> 02:08:04,800
Speaker 1: put the iv We can give you IV or medical

2156
02:08:04,880 --> 02:08:09,520
Speaker 1: or anti depressants or anti anxiety medicine. Listen, lady, I've

2157
02:08:09,560 --> 02:08:13,360
Speaker 1: never had the time depressant or medication. I rarely take medication.

2158
02:08:13,720 --> 02:08:16,520
Speaker 1: I would not have medication. That is not an option.

2159
02:08:16,800 --> 02:08:18,320
Speaker 1: I don't want the ivy. I don't want you to

2160
02:08:18,320 --> 02:08:21,800
Speaker 1: touch my body. Period. I am this is me fully

2161
02:08:21,880 --> 02:08:25,200
Speaker 1: where what the consequences are and unless I get a

2162
02:08:25,280 --> 02:08:28,160
Speaker 1: hold of my Laura, or call my family and tell

2163
02:08:28,200 --> 02:08:30,680
Speaker 1: them that I'm alive or where I'm at. This is

2164
02:08:30,720 --> 02:08:33,000
Speaker 1: gonna go. Last time I did this, I did it

2165
02:08:33,040 --> 02:08:37,080
Speaker 1: for four or five days, no problem. So they started

2166
02:08:37,080 --> 02:08:40,839
Speaker 1: freaking out. James there really they called the big guns.

2167
02:08:41,400 --> 02:08:44,920
Speaker 1: I think he was a lieutenant or whatever the ranking is.

2168
02:08:45,080 --> 02:08:47,280
Speaker 1: He came in, listen, what's going on? What are you doing? Man?

2169
02:08:47,320 --> 02:08:50,480
Speaker 1: They can't be doing this in my house again, my house.

2170
02:08:50,880 --> 02:08:55,760
Speaker 1: The guy owns the place, all right. So I'm like, listen, yeah,

2171
02:08:56,480 --> 02:08:59,480
Speaker 1: I'm done. If you don't give me my call, expect

2172
02:08:59,480 --> 02:09:02,320
Speaker 1: me to do this for the I'll go to the end.

2173
02:09:02,360 --> 02:09:05,600
Speaker 1: I've done this against corrupt governments and when I was

2174
02:09:05,680 --> 02:09:07,600
Speaker 1: arrested in Tunisia or whatever.

2175
02:09:07,840 --> 02:09:10,200
Speaker 11: I can do this all day long, man, all day long.

2176
02:09:10,800 --> 02:09:14,120
Speaker 1: So he's like, you can't do this. This is ridiculous.

2177
02:09:14,160 --> 02:09:15,720
Speaker 1: I have eighteen hundred people here. You're going to start

2178
02:09:15,720 --> 02:09:18,080
Speaker 1: a problem. I don't want problems here. So he takes

2179
02:09:18,080 --> 02:09:20,240
Speaker 1: me straight up to the central area, put me in

2180
02:09:20,280 --> 02:09:22,280
Speaker 1: front of phone, give me the phone number. I give

2181
02:09:22,360 --> 02:09:25,440
Speaker 1: him the phone number. He does my wife bam, bam, shazam.

2182
02:09:25,840 --> 02:09:28,640
Speaker 1: I call her. They were still asleep at seven in

2183
02:09:28,720 --> 02:09:31,320
Speaker 1: the morning. They have school at eight thirty, so I

2184
02:09:31,360 --> 02:09:34,040
Speaker 1: live her a voicemail. I later found out that she

2185
02:09:34,040 --> 02:09:36,880
Speaker 1: did get the voicemail, thank god, and then she felt

2186
02:09:36,920 --> 02:09:38,560
Speaker 1: really good when she heard my voice and she knew

2187
02:09:39,320 --> 02:09:42,760
Speaker 1: you yeah, yeah, So I don't know, tell you man,

2188
02:09:42,800 --> 02:09:45,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's just a no man's land and it's

2189
02:09:45,040 --> 02:09:49,280
Speaker 1: just dude. When I got to talk to the supervisor,

2190
02:09:49,320 --> 02:09:52,480
Speaker 1: when I escalated because they took my DNA, like what

2191
02:09:53,000 --> 02:09:54,720
Speaker 1: I told him, Look, what's going on? Why are you

2192
02:09:54,720 --> 02:09:57,960
Speaker 1: taking people's DNA? Like, what's going on? I told him,

2193
02:09:58,400 --> 02:10:01,400
Speaker 1: what are you accusing us for? What is the accusation exactly?

2194
02:10:01,600 --> 02:10:04,120
Speaker 1: He said, you're not accused of anything, and what am

2195
02:10:04,160 --> 02:10:06,640
Speaker 1: I guilty of? You're not guilty of anything? So why

2196
02:10:06,640 --> 02:10:09,480
Speaker 1: are you taking my DNA? And then when he's just

2197
02:10:09,680 --> 02:10:11,440
Speaker 1: because this is the guy, the main guy. This is

2198
02:10:11,480 --> 02:10:14,280
Speaker 1: the guy that I saw coming in an intake and

2199
02:10:14,320 --> 02:10:16,960
Speaker 1: then laid on an outcake. He's got like twenty screens

2200
02:10:17,000 --> 02:10:19,480
Speaker 1: in front of him, he's manning the border. He's like,

2201
02:10:19,560 --> 02:10:21,680
Speaker 1: you know, it's the main guy. Like I say, it's him.

2202
02:10:22,560 --> 02:10:25,160
Speaker 1: So I told him, do you have your DNA your

2203
02:10:25,160 --> 02:10:27,120
Speaker 1: own DNA taking? He said yes, I did okay. I

2204
02:10:27,120 --> 02:10:29,000
Speaker 1: told him if your DNA was taken and you can

2205
02:10:29,000 --> 02:10:32,160
Speaker 1: take mine, that's fine. So they're taking people's DNA to

2206
02:10:32,200 --> 02:10:35,240
Speaker 1: put it in the database. And if you don't sign,

2207
02:10:35,640 --> 02:10:37,280
Speaker 1: they don't let you. They don't let you out. So

2208
02:10:37,320 --> 02:10:39,840
Speaker 1: you can stay there indefinitely until you do your DNA.

2209
02:10:40,760 --> 02:10:42,600
Speaker 1: How is this okay? Yeah?

2210
02:10:43,400 --> 02:10:45,000
Speaker 11: And you're not givet you of anything, James.

2211
02:10:45,040 --> 02:10:48,200
Speaker 1: You're not gilty of anything. That's the key. So you're

2212
02:10:48,240 --> 02:10:50,200
Speaker 1: not guilty of anything. I mean, I understand if you're

2213
02:10:50,240 --> 02:10:54,480
Speaker 1: arrested for a misdemeanor or a pelony, and you know,

2214
02:10:54,880 --> 02:10:57,520
Speaker 1: you know in states they take the DNA, I get it.

2215
02:10:57,520 --> 02:11:01,920
Speaker 1: But if you're there's no isation, there's no guilty, and

2216
02:11:02,000 --> 02:11:08,120
Speaker 1: yet you're taking my DNA for what for what? So so,

2217
02:11:08,120 --> 02:11:09,800
Speaker 1: so it was really rough. It was really rough.

2218
02:11:09,840 --> 02:11:12,440
Speaker 11: And then and they were very very nasty.

2219
02:11:12,560 --> 02:11:14,880
Speaker 1: I mean, one lady, miss Diaz, I will never forget her,

2220
02:11:15,200 --> 02:11:19,160
Speaker 1: Officer DEAs. I mean, she was cussing left and right,

2221
02:11:19,400 --> 02:11:23,000
Speaker 1: left and right, left and right. And then I lost it, man,

2222
02:11:23,200 --> 02:11:26,440
Speaker 1: when I when when she had me for I think

2223
02:11:26,720 --> 02:11:30,760
Speaker 1: they had me do sign papers again, all right? So

2224
02:11:30,840 --> 02:11:33,480
Speaker 1: I was simply asking why am I saying signing the

2225
02:11:33,480 --> 02:11:35,960
Speaker 1: same papers again, do you want to leave? What do

2226
02:11:35,960 --> 02:11:36,920
Speaker 1: you want to leave? Do you want to leave? What

2227
02:11:36,960 --> 02:11:40,440
Speaker 1: you want to leave? And then on the same time, James,

2228
02:11:40,440 --> 02:11:43,480
Speaker 1: as she talks to me, she pauses. She looks at

2229
02:11:43,040 --> 02:11:46,560
Speaker 1: her colleagues and she's smiling to them, and she's talking

2230
02:11:46,600 --> 02:11:48,920
Speaker 1: to them so nice. I simply told her, why are

2231
02:11:48,920 --> 02:11:51,360
Speaker 1: you talking nicely to your friends and you're so mean

2232
02:11:51,400 --> 02:11:53,560
Speaker 1: to us that? Why why are you doing this? Like?

2233
02:11:53,600 --> 02:11:54,800
Speaker 11: What is what is the problem?

2234
02:11:55,240 --> 02:11:56,240
Speaker 1: Did I did I?

2235
02:11:56,440 --> 02:11:58,400
Speaker 11: Did I call your names? Did I say something bad?

2236
02:11:59,120 --> 02:12:01,360
Speaker 1: No? But you know my friend. Yeah, But even if

2237
02:12:01,400 --> 02:12:02,920
Speaker 1: I'm not your friend, why are you clussing at me?

2238
02:12:02,920 --> 02:12:05,800
Speaker 11: Why are you saying these bad things that shut her down?

2239
02:12:05,960 --> 02:12:08,080
Speaker 1: That totally shut her down? James, I mean it was

2240
02:12:08,120 --> 02:12:10,480
Speaker 1: a completely different person after that because it was in

2241
02:12:10,480 --> 02:12:12,760
Speaker 1: front of her boss. It was in front of her boss.

2242
02:12:13,280 --> 02:12:16,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm telling you, man, they're just this is

2243
02:12:16,320 --> 02:12:22,120
Speaker 1: what happens when you have zero accountability zero. I mean, anybody,

2244
02:12:22,200 --> 02:12:27,360
Speaker 1: this is basic fruit in understanding of psychology one O

2245
02:12:27,480 --> 02:12:31,320
Speaker 1: one that if you give someone ultimate power, they're going

2246
02:12:31,400 --> 02:12:35,240
Speaker 1: to take advantage. And you know, I don't know what

2247
02:12:35,320 --> 02:12:36,880
Speaker 1: to tell you, man. I feel bad for the people

2248
02:12:36,880 --> 02:12:40,600
Speaker 1: in that attention because you know, I'm not saying they're

2249
02:12:40,600 --> 02:12:43,200
Speaker 1: being tortured, but it's just a you know, the little

2250
02:12:43,280 --> 02:12:45,520
Speaker 1: drops of water on your head, Yeah, you know, the

2251
02:12:45,560 --> 02:12:48,360
Speaker 1: little you know, after a while you can turns up.

2252
02:12:48,520 --> 02:12:51,000
Speaker 1: So there's one guy from Russia that was there for

2253
02:12:51,040 --> 02:12:54,520
Speaker 1: three weeks, wow, three weeks. There's one guy from Brazil

2254
02:12:54,560 --> 02:12:57,240
Speaker 1: that was there for a week. Come on, man, I

2255
02:12:57,280 --> 02:12:59,360
Speaker 1: mean seriously, like that's too much.

2256
02:12:59,680 --> 02:13:03,080
Speaker 8: Yes, much, So that's crazy.

2257
02:13:03,120 --> 02:13:05,680
Speaker 1: You know, that was horrific. And then when I was leaving,

2258
02:13:06,440 --> 02:13:09,520
Speaker 1: uh I found out that they put the wrong address

2259
02:13:10,040 --> 02:13:12,800
Speaker 1: on my release form. And you know, I don't know

2260
02:13:12,840 --> 02:13:16,200
Speaker 1: if you know anything about the US immigration bureaucracy, James,

2261
02:13:16,560 --> 02:13:19,720
Speaker 1: it is horrific. It is horrific. All it takes is

2262
02:13:19,720 --> 02:13:22,040
Speaker 1: the one the wrong digit in the address. They send

2263
02:13:22,040 --> 02:13:23,920
Speaker 1: the paperwork to the wrong address. Oh, we did it,

2264
02:13:24,000 --> 02:13:25,920
Speaker 1: we sent it. We don't care. We don't care, you

2265
02:13:25,960 --> 02:13:27,720
Speaker 1: know what I mean. And then you're basically waiting all

2266
02:13:27,760 --> 02:13:29,920
Speaker 1: your life. And then that's pretty much what happened to

2267
02:13:30,000 --> 02:13:32,000
Speaker 1: me before when I was in the United States. And

2268
02:13:32,000 --> 02:13:33,920
Speaker 1: then you know, they don't care always to take it

2269
02:13:33,960 --> 02:13:36,960
Speaker 1: up with the with the US postal postal service. Are

2270
02:13:37,000 --> 02:13:38,720
Speaker 1: you serious, Like you know you're going to put someone

2271
02:13:38,760 --> 02:13:40,680
Speaker 1: in jail and because he sent them the wrong address.

2272
02:13:41,000 --> 02:13:44,520
Speaker 1: Anyhow so, anyhow so I came back from the bus.

2273
02:13:44,640 --> 02:13:47,120
Speaker 1: The bus is loaded, we're leaving. I came back to the.

2274
02:13:47,160 --> 02:13:49,080
Speaker 11: Look you got you know, you got the wrong address here?

2275
02:13:49,080 --> 02:13:51,240
Speaker 1: Like you know, what's going on? Do you want to leave?

2276
02:13:51,280 --> 02:13:52,520
Speaker 1: What do you want to stay? Do you want to leave?

2277
02:13:52,760 --> 02:13:55,160
Speaker 1: That's all that's all they talked about. It's like a

2278
02:13:55,200 --> 02:13:58,000
Speaker 1: favor she's doing. It's not like a law thing. It's

2279
02:13:58,040 --> 02:14:01,040
Speaker 1: not the produe process. No, no, I'd be more than

2280
02:14:01,080 --> 02:14:03,160
Speaker 1: happy to stick you in there because you complain about it.

2281
02:14:04,120 --> 02:14:06,320
Speaker 1: A mistake that we made on your on your form.

2282
02:14:07,640 --> 02:14:13,640
Speaker 8: It's just yeah, the whole thing. It's just just don't

2283
02:14:13,680 --> 02:14:16,680
Speaker 8: need to make it as cruel and as hard and lit.

2284
02:14:16,800 --> 02:14:22,000
Speaker 8: People of people have died in the outdoor attention in

2285
02:14:22,080 --> 02:14:24,760
Speaker 8: another site, not the place where you were in San Diego,

2286
02:14:24,920 --> 02:14:28,400
Speaker 8: right like, And it's a tragedy and it it doesn't

2287
02:14:28,400 --> 02:14:31,040
Speaker 8: have to happen, and it doesn't have to be disandignified.

2288
02:14:31,320 --> 02:14:35,160
Speaker 8: And yeah, I didn't. I think maybe people will have

2289
02:14:35,200 --> 02:14:40,480
Speaker 8: disagreements about the immigration, the different immigration laws, and they

2290
02:14:40,520 --> 02:14:42,560
Speaker 8: might feel differently to the way I do what you do,

2291
02:14:43,280 --> 02:14:46,440
Speaker 8: David do. But I don't think anyone in their right

2292
02:14:46,480 --> 02:14:49,360
Speaker 8: mind would really justify the way you've been treated. And

2293
02:14:50,000 --> 02:14:53,760
Speaker 8: you can multiply that by thousands, right, and you're fortunate

2294
02:14:54,120 --> 02:14:58,040
Speaker 8: enough to be in relatively good health and not too

2295
02:14:58,080 --> 02:15:00,840
Speaker 8: young or not too old or to sick for this

2296
02:15:00,880 --> 02:15:04,360
Speaker 8: to be a deadly trip or right. And still it's

2297
02:15:04,400 --> 02:15:06,680
Speaker 8: obviously had a massive effect on you. And I can

2298
02:15:07,280 --> 02:15:09,320
Speaker 8: understand why, I mean, I'm.

2299
02:15:09,160 --> 02:15:11,600
Speaker 1: Having a little bit of nightmares against with you, because

2300
02:15:12,080 --> 02:15:15,320
Speaker 1: what bugs me the most is those kids. Uh. And

2301
02:15:15,360 --> 02:15:19,120
Speaker 1: then on top of it, it's overwhelming because I was

2302
02:15:19,160 --> 02:15:22,240
Speaker 1: thrust in a position where sadly, I mean, I had

2303
02:15:22,280 --> 02:15:26,440
Speaker 1: to pick up for a lot of people. I mean,

2304
02:15:26,480 --> 02:15:29,880
Speaker 1: you know, yes, it's my family tragedy, I mean is

2305
02:15:29,920 --> 02:15:32,520
Speaker 1: an issue. But I mean, you know, I don't want

2306
02:15:32,520 --> 02:15:34,839
Speaker 1: to talk too much about what I did in Tunisia,

2307
02:15:34,840 --> 02:15:37,839
Speaker 1: but I was standing up against corruption and against bribery

2308
02:15:37,840 --> 02:15:40,040
Speaker 1: and things like that, and that costed me a lot

2309
02:15:40,080 --> 02:15:42,840
Speaker 1: of problems. And it cost me, I mean, being in

2310
02:15:42,920 --> 02:15:48,440
Speaker 1: a blacklist in a government that's ever going negatively.

2311
02:15:49,280 --> 02:15:53,520
Speaker 11: You know, I'm jailing activists and jailing for speech.

2312
02:15:53,960 --> 02:15:56,840
Speaker 1: It said that that Tunisia, the home of the art

2313
02:15:56,880 --> 02:16:00,360
Speaker 1: of spring now is turning into another dictator ships sadly.

2314
02:16:00,960 --> 02:16:04,000
Speaker 1: So you know, I didn't want to use that as

2315
02:16:04,000 --> 02:16:06,520
Speaker 1: a reason, but I mean it is what ruined my

2316
02:16:06,880 --> 02:16:11,720
Speaker 1: personal life because I was constantlyating, you know, harassed and

2317
02:16:11,720 --> 02:16:16,520
Speaker 1: and pushed and shopped by Tunesian you know, ay holes.

2318
02:16:17,200 --> 02:16:20,560
Speaker 1: Uh And then here I am to find myself and

2319
02:16:20,760 --> 02:16:23,880
Speaker 1: you know, like with a Dijah who kind of feeling

2320
02:16:24,680 --> 02:16:29,560
Speaker 1: well with these gratuities themselves for nothing, so that that

2321
02:16:29,640 --> 02:16:33,480
Speaker 1: kind of triggered me a lot, big time, James, and

2322
02:16:33,600 --> 02:16:36,800
Speaker 1: uh uh. And then I felt like, you know, what

2323
02:16:36,959 --> 02:16:38,760
Speaker 1: is life worth? I mean, I know I'm coming from

2324
02:16:38,800 --> 02:16:42,000
Speaker 1: my kids there, the love of my life, and and

2325
02:16:42,000 --> 02:16:46,280
Speaker 1: then my wife as well, but you know, I want

2326
02:16:46,320 --> 02:16:48,720
Speaker 1: them to remember their dad as someone who sticks up

2327
02:16:48,760 --> 02:16:55,760
Speaker 1: for fathers and you know, the you know, James, the

2328
02:16:56,240 --> 02:17:03,440
Speaker 1: the most difficult part were was David mentioned the Persian

2329
02:17:03,480 --> 02:17:09,320
Speaker 1: guys running guys. You know, I got annoyed a little bit, James,

2330
02:17:09,360 --> 02:17:13,119
Speaker 1: because they were really lining up behind me and holding

2331
02:17:13,120 --> 02:17:17,320
Speaker 1: my hand, begging me to help them get out. Yeah,

2332
02:17:18,000 --> 02:17:18,800
Speaker 1: and because I'm.

2333
02:17:18,640 --> 02:17:20,760
Speaker 15: The only one that spoke the language, and it felt

2334
02:17:20,800 --> 02:17:24,040
Speaker 15: like you know, they didn't have any recourse and the

2335
02:17:24,120 --> 02:17:29,120
Speaker 15: detention center, I'm not gonna let you, James, that was

2336
02:17:29,280 --> 02:17:29,880
Speaker 15: very difficult.

2337
02:17:31,640 --> 02:17:34,600
Speaker 1: It was very difficult. That was very I felt like

2338
02:17:34,680 --> 02:17:40,760
Speaker 1: when I was leaving, I was leaving friends, brothers, brothers behind,

2339
02:17:41,120 --> 02:17:45,480
Speaker 1: and that stuck with me. Dude, Yeah, it's just a

2340
02:17:46,360 --> 02:17:51,760
Speaker 1: few people specifically that really really really really was stuck

2341
02:17:51,800 --> 02:17:52,039
Speaker 1: on me.

2342
02:17:52,920 --> 02:18:00,280
Speaker 16: And uh, this is uh what is this world war?

2343
02:18:00,400 --> 02:18:03,880
Speaker 16: What are we doing all this war? There's a genuine

2344
02:18:04,080 --> 02:18:08,240
Speaker 16: decent human beings. This country needs as many workers and

2345
02:18:08,320 --> 02:18:12,959
Speaker 16: as many new citizens as possible. Instead of just shoving

2346
02:18:13,000 --> 02:18:16,760
Speaker 16: these people with hatred, just align them, just give them

2347
02:18:16,760 --> 02:18:20,080
Speaker 16: a chance, just rehab, just kind of make sure they

2348
02:18:20,120 --> 02:18:22,080
Speaker 16: know the languages, they do all this and be good.

2349
02:18:22,520 --> 02:18:25,000
Speaker 16: They all want to work, they all want to be good.

2350
02:18:25,360 --> 02:18:28,279
Speaker 16: Nobody that I met there is into drugs or anything.

2351
02:18:28,879 --> 02:18:32,360
Speaker 1: You know. It's just it sucks because it's not it's

2352
02:18:32,360 --> 02:18:34,800
Speaker 1: not shooting you yourself on the foot.

2353
02:18:36,000 --> 02:18:41,400
Speaker 11: It doesn't make sense. And I really felt really sad,

2354
02:18:42,640 --> 02:18:44,760
Speaker 11: and on a on a lighter.

2355
02:18:44,520 --> 02:18:48,280
Speaker 1: Note, getting into eventually released and getting on the bus

2356
02:18:48,320 --> 02:18:55,039
Speaker 1: and going to the central uh the central Elementary, I

2357
02:18:55,080 --> 02:18:59,400
Speaker 1: believe in school, and I just got out of the

2358
02:18:59,440 --> 02:19:06,440
Speaker 1: bus and I can hear the voices everybody's calling, and

2359
02:19:06,480 --> 02:19:09,800
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's getting dark and I can't see I

2360
02:19:09,800 --> 02:19:14,600
Speaker 1: can't see the people. But I found like at least

2361
02:19:14,640 --> 02:19:17,560
Speaker 1: twenty or eighteen people that I that were with me

2362
02:19:17,720 --> 02:19:20,880
Speaker 1: there and they were like they were crying and they

2363
02:19:20,879 --> 02:19:23,800
Speaker 1: were like thank you, thank you, thank you, and uh,

2364
02:19:24,440 --> 02:19:26,760
Speaker 1: you know it was it was. It was really hard warming.

2365
02:19:27,200 --> 02:19:30,959
Speaker 1: It really was really hard warman. And I appreciate that

2366
02:19:31,040 --> 02:19:34,160
Speaker 1: the that they recognized what we did. We tried to

2367
02:19:34,160 --> 02:19:42,160
Speaker 1: do a bunch of more Italians, Colombians, Mexicans, Ecuadorians, uh,

2368
02:19:42,920 --> 02:19:47,039
Speaker 1: I mean, you name it. It was just a Turkish, uh An,

2369
02:19:47,040 --> 02:19:51,440
Speaker 1: older gentleman, Iranian, the Iranians, the same Iranians that that

2370
02:19:51,440 --> 02:19:53,720
Speaker 1: that that I helped get onto the bus from from

2371
02:19:53,760 --> 02:19:57,560
Speaker 1: Willow the same guys. Eventually all I found them central

2372
02:19:58,240 --> 02:20:02,320
Speaker 1: and it was really nice to see them and for

2373
02:20:02,400 --> 02:20:06,120
Speaker 1: them to just literally jump on me almost and tell

2374
02:20:06,160 --> 02:20:08,520
Speaker 1: me thank you in so many languages.

2375
02:20:08,680 --> 02:20:13,199
Speaker 11: I appreciate that. So I just hope all this, this,

2376
02:20:13,200 --> 02:20:17,200
Speaker 11: this this kind of get somewhere where they understand that.

2377
02:20:19,000 --> 02:20:21,040
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be this way. It really doesn't

2378
02:20:21,080 --> 02:20:23,320
Speaker 1: and we're not asking I'm not asking.

2379
02:20:23,920 --> 02:20:26,280
Speaker 11: Either get more people or do this.

2380
02:20:26,360 --> 02:20:30,000
Speaker 1: I'm just saying there is little tweaks that are not

2381
02:20:30,160 --> 02:20:35,160
Speaker 1: meant to increase the integration or or make it impossible

2382
02:20:35,240 --> 02:20:37,760
Speaker 1: or anything. It's just little tweaks to, you.

2383
02:20:37,720 --> 02:20:39,320
Speaker 11: Know, to get this system a little better.

2384
02:20:39,400 --> 02:20:41,640
Speaker 1: That's all. That's all I'm saying personally.

2385
02:20:42,000 --> 02:20:45,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, make it a little kinder. And I think like

2386
02:20:45,400 --> 02:20:48,080
Speaker 8: it's always that way, right, Like it's people helping each other,

2387
02:20:48,160 --> 02:20:50,440
Speaker 8: even when the government doesn't help them, and.

2388
02:20:50,560 --> 02:20:52,760
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

2389
02:20:52,959 --> 02:20:55,680
Speaker 8: We just got use. I was there yesterday that that

2390
02:20:55,800 --> 02:20:58,240
Speaker 8: all the shelters at one of the sites were torn down,

2391
02:20:58,320 --> 02:21:01,840
Speaker 8: so like it's we'll have to go back and build

2392
02:21:01,879 --> 02:21:06,160
Speaker 8: them again. But yeah, yeah, people will because I think

2393
02:21:06,200 --> 02:21:08,160
Speaker 8: we all, at least or of us here, I think

2394
02:21:08,240 --> 02:21:11,080
Speaker 8: people should be treated with dignity and that they deserve

2395
02:21:11,080 --> 02:21:15,320
Speaker 8: a little better than their being given currently. And have

2396
02:21:15,400 --> 02:21:17,720
Speaker 8: you been able to reunite with your your children yet

2397
02:21:17,760 --> 02:21:19,200
Speaker 8: or is that so in your future?

2398
02:21:20,240 --> 02:21:25,360
Speaker 1: Yes, it's it's uh, technically on Thursday, suppose you're not

2399
02:21:25,480 --> 02:21:29,120
Speaker 1: with them. I am getting there on steps. I'm financially

2400
02:21:29,200 --> 02:21:32,640
Speaker 1: not viable right now. I'm relying on some friends to

2401
02:21:33,520 --> 02:21:36,560
Speaker 1: who got me up to Los Angeles right now, and

2402
02:21:36,600 --> 02:21:41,879
Speaker 1: then we're collecting money for guests and uh, my wife

2403
02:21:41,920 --> 02:21:45,640
Speaker 1: Lauren will be coming down on Thursday with the kids

2404
02:21:45,640 --> 02:21:48,600
Speaker 1: and then we're gonna go to her mom's in Lancaster

2405
02:21:49,160 --> 02:21:52,119
Speaker 1: for a Christmas party that she does, and then from

2406
02:21:52,160 --> 02:21:55,199
Speaker 1: there we'll make it back up to Pisonal and Insal.

2407
02:21:56,400 --> 02:22:02,920
Speaker 1: My wife was sheltering in but the house is overcrowded

2408
02:22:03,000 --> 02:22:05,680
Speaker 1: and there's no way I can stay there, so I'll

2409
02:22:05,680 --> 02:22:09,120
Speaker 1: be That's something that I'm trying to figure out and

2410
02:22:09,280 --> 02:22:12,160
Speaker 1: where to stay. And I don't have friends up there

2411
02:22:12,200 --> 02:22:15,800
Speaker 1: and don't have anything. Uh, so that's it's a problem

2412
02:22:15,840 --> 02:22:18,160
Speaker 1: that I'm having to deal with. And at the same time,

2413
02:22:18,560 --> 02:22:22,600
Speaker 1: I was given April twelve as a court date and

2414
02:22:23,000 --> 02:22:26,520
Speaker 1: nice and I have to deal with a lawyer and

2415
02:22:26,600 --> 02:22:30,959
Speaker 1: the contact the lawyers, and they're expensive. The Progonal lawyers

2416
02:22:31,000 --> 02:22:35,280
Speaker 1: that we called h they don't take they're not taking

2417
02:22:35,280 --> 02:22:35,880
Speaker 1: new cases.

2418
02:22:37,040 --> 02:22:38,039
Speaker 6: So it's.

2419
02:22:39,400 --> 02:22:41,920
Speaker 1: I knew it was going to be difficult, but when

2420
02:22:41,959 --> 02:22:45,080
Speaker 1: you're in it and it's uh, you think that will

2421
02:22:45,160 --> 02:22:48,120
Speaker 1: be kind of a little better. But it's definitely not

2422
02:22:48,760 --> 02:22:52,680
Speaker 1: looking good. But you know, it'll be close to my

2423
02:22:52,840 --> 02:22:56,840
Speaker 1: kids somehow, and that's what matters to me. But it's

2424
02:22:56,920 --> 02:23:00,640
Speaker 1: just a struggle. I was a Congressmanship of Plase. I mean,

2425
02:23:00,680 --> 02:23:03,120
Speaker 1: what kind of resources you have for immigrants. I just

2426
02:23:03,160 --> 02:23:05,880
Speaker 1: need a little bit of a you know, start, so

2427
02:23:05,920 --> 02:23:08,959
Speaker 1: I can get back on my feet. And I kept

2428
02:23:08,959 --> 02:23:13,240
Speaker 1: them in touch since I was in Africa through the trip.

2429
02:23:14,120 --> 02:23:19,600
Speaker 1: They're the only congress office that at least interacted with us,

2430
02:23:20,320 --> 02:23:23,360
Speaker 1: me and my wife. But you know, she looked at

2431
02:23:23,400 --> 02:23:26,480
Speaker 1: me from from behind the glass door and she said

2432
02:23:26,760 --> 02:23:33,440
Speaker 1: good luck. She sent me the county Immigrant Affairs office, uh,

2433
02:23:34,320 --> 02:23:36,720
Speaker 1: you know, linked and she told me good luck, and

2434
02:23:36,760 --> 02:23:39,400
Speaker 1: then uh and said bye bye. And that's all that

2435
02:23:39,560 --> 02:23:46,960
Speaker 1: she did. So it's uh, it's tiring and not giving up,

2436
02:23:46,959 --> 02:23:51,119
Speaker 1: of course, but it's just it's very difficult change.

2437
02:23:51,560 --> 02:23:55,720
Speaker 8: Yeah, no, it's yeah, it shouldn't be this hard. It's complicated,

2438
02:23:55,959 --> 02:23:59,640
Speaker 8: or this taxing, especially in your family here already.

2439
02:24:00,160 --> 02:24:01,960
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to be I don't. I mean, my

2440
02:24:02,000 --> 02:24:05,400
Speaker 1: wife is on welfare and they keep cutting her welfare

2441
02:24:05,920 --> 02:24:09,520
Speaker 1: smaller and smaller, just you know, two kids. I just

2442
02:24:09,560 --> 02:24:11,840
Speaker 1: need a chance to get up the back on my

2443
02:24:11,879 --> 02:24:14,400
Speaker 1: feet and be a good father to work, and I

2444
02:24:14,440 --> 02:24:17,000
Speaker 1: can't work right now. I'm not allowed to work. Yeah,

2445
02:24:17,480 --> 02:24:20,279
Speaker 1: and I have to find money, money for the lawyer.

2446
02:24:20,280 --> 02:24:23,200
Speaker 1: I have to find money for me and my kids.

2447
02:24:23,400 --> 02:24:27,039
Speaker 11: It's really quite a humbling experience.

2448
02:24:27,040 --> 02:24:29,560
Speaker 1: And I know I don't want to rely on anybody,

2449
02:24:29,560 --> 02:24:32,359
Speaker 1: but I mean, it's just it's just it's hard. It's hard.

2450
02:24:32,760 --> 02:24:34,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, no, it is. And like I don't know how

2451
02:24:34,560 --> 02:24:36,800
Speaker 8: people are expected to pay for the legal representation and

2452
02:24:36,879 --> 02:24:40,800
Speaker 8: they're also expected not to work. It's just it's a

2453
02:24:40,840 --> 02:24:44,160
Speaker 8: system that seems to design to be as cruel and

2454
02:24:44,160 --> 02:24:45,320
Speaker 8: complicated as possible.

2455
02:24:46,240 --> 02:24:50,760
Speaker 1: Yet you know, the jobs are available. The jobs are available, James.

2456
02:24:51,000 --> 02:24:54,240
Speaker 1: I mean I contacted about four or five places. My

2457
02:24:55,200 --> 02:25:01,520
Speaker 1: previous work experience in LA and California was logistics and

2458
02:25:01,600 --> 02:25:04,480
Speaker 1: parental and stuff like that. I told my previous bosses.

2459
02:25:04,520 --> 02:25:06,680
Speaker 1: They all told me to come over, you know, get

2460
02:25:06,680 --> 02:25:08,600
Speaker 1: your steps up figured out, and come over. We'll find

2461
02:25:08,600 --> 02:25:12,040
Speaker 1: a job. So we have plenty of vacancies, basically, I mean,

2462
02:25:12,080 --> 02:25:18,200
Speaker 1: you know, so, uh, but you know here, you are here,

2463
02:25:18,240 --> 02:25:20,520
Speaker 1: you are there. Yeah.

2464
02:25:20,600 --> 02:25:25,440
Speaker 8: Man, it's it's I've heard so many of these stories,

2465
02:25:25,480 --> 02:25:28,320
Speaker 8: but and then stop upsetting me. And I'm glad in

2466
02:25:28,360 --> 02:25:31,240
Speaker 8: a way because you know they're bad and they shouldn't.

2467
02:25:31,840 --> 02:25:33,879
Speaker 8: They should be upsetting to everyone who is and I'm

2468
02:25:33,920 --> 02:25:37,320
Speaker 8: sure everyone who is this will want to do whatever

2469
02:25:37,320 --> 02:25:40,080
Speaker 8: they can to make this little easier. Are there like

2470
02:25:40,120 --> 02:25:43,840
Speaker 8: any orcs or nonprofits that have been helping you since

2471
02:25:43,840 --> 02:25:46,600
Speaker 8: you've got in the US that you think people should Oh?

2472
02:25:46,680 --> 02:25:48,360
Speaker 1: Man, nothing, nothing.

2473
02:25:48,520 --> 02:25:51,560
Speaker 11: I mean it's been you know, those who call.

2474
02:25:52,920 --> 02:25:56,320
Speaker 1: Very centric as far as Asian Americans or this or

2475
02:25:56,360 --> 02:25:58,320
Speaker 1: that is very specific.

2476
02:25:59,040 --> 02:26:05,800
Speaker 8: But yeah, migrants of everyone, it's I'm telling you no joke.

2477
02:26:06,120 --> 02:26:08,039
Speaker 1: And if you're a father trying to make it to

2478
02:26:08,040 --> 02:26:10,200
Speaker 1: your kids and trying to you know what I mean,

2479
02:26:10,320 --> 02:26:15,240
Speaker 1: do right by your kids doesn't mean anything, nothing, absolutely nothing.

2480
02:26:16,320 --> 02:26:17,640
Speaker 8: So that's terrible.

2481
02:26:17,720 --> 02:26:17,879
Speaker 5: Man.

2482
02:26:18,280 --> 02:26:22,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the first Christmas for This is the

2483
02:26:22,800 --> 02:26:25,480
Speaker 1: first Christmas for the kids outside of their where they

2484
02:26:25,480 --> 02:26:30,400
Speaker 1: grew up. I really wanted to make it as family

2485
02:26:30,440 --> 02:26:34,080
Speaker 1: friendly and happy as possible, but I don't even have

2486
02:26:34,360 --> 02:26:38,120
Speaker 1: the capacity to give them gifts or anything or or

2487
02:26:38,520 --> 02:26:43,280
Speaker 1: even I don't know. This is gonna be hard, Yeah man,

2488
02:26:43,440 --> 02:26:43,760
Speaker 1: it is.

2489
02:26:43,879 --> 02:26:49,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, man, sorry, that's I know, that's okay.

2490
02:26:49,400 --> 02:26:52,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just I'm just a drop in an

2491
02:26:52,680 --> 02:26:56,480
Speaker 1: ocean of of of despair when it comes to immigrants,

2492
02:26:56,480 --> 02:27:00,959
Speaker 1: and I'm getting messages from some of them in New York,

2493
02:27:01,160 --> 02:27:04,320
Speaker 1: some of them in UH, North Carolina, some of them

2494
02:27:04,360 --> 02:27:09,920
Speaker 1: in UH and in Illinois, UH, a couple in California.

2495
02:27:11,360 --> 02:27:14,480
Speaker 1: I mean, they're they're still desperate for for health and

2496
02:27:14,879 --> 02:27:20,080
Speaker 1: especially with language and all that. So you know, I'm grinding,

2497
02:27:20,160 --> 02:27:21,800
Speaker 1: and I mean they're doing the best I can. But

2498
02:27:24,200 --> 02:27:27,039
Speaker 1: you know it's a reality check. It's a reality check joke.

2499
02:27:27,600 --> 02:27:31,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, no, it's it's it's really. I mean, it's sickening

2500
02:27:31,200 --> 02:27:33,720
Speaker 8: how quickly you can be and cut out and nothing

2501
02:27:33,800 --> 02:27:36,959
Speaker 8: when the state doesn't care about you. But I want

2502
02:27:37,000 --> 02:27:38,800
Speaker 8: to thank you so much for giving us your story

2503
02:27:38,840 --> 02:27:41,480
Speaker 8: and your time and being so open with us, because

2504
02:27:42,160 --> 02:27:44,160
Speaker 8: I think that's the only way that this stuff changes,

2505
02:27:44,280 --> 02:27:48,400
Speaker 8: is that people here Like number numbers are great and

2506
02:27:48,400 --> 02:27:51,640
Speaker 8: and your story is one of tens of thousands, but

2507
02:27:51,720 --> 02:27:54,320
Speaker 8: I think sometimes we need to hear individual stories to

2508
02:27:54,400 --> 02:27:59,000
Speaker 8: understand the human impact of this true, true, true, and

2509
02:27:59,080 --> 02:28:03,199
Speaker 8: like we'll stay in You have my friend number. Anything

2510
02:28:03,240 --> 02:28:04,480
Speaker 8: you need, anything we can do for you.

2511
02:28:04,800 --> 02:28:06,760
Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean I can't. I can't wait to come

2512
02:28:06,800 --> 02:28:07,560
Speaker 11: down to the border.

2513
02:28:07,560 --> 02:28:09,879
Speaker 1: I'm not giving up on the border, dude, I'm not

2514
02:28:10,080 --> 02:28:12,920
Speaker 1: I want to bring at some point my kids to

2515
02:28:12,959 --> 02:28:17,320
Speaker 1: see the price, and then I want to contribute. I

2516
02:28:17,320 --> 02:28:19,160
Speaker 1: want to find a way to give back. I want to.

2517
02:28:19,760 --> 02:28:21,280
Speaker 1: I know I can't do it right now, but I

2518
02:28:21,360 --> 02:28:24,119
Speaker 1: send my mom in my mind, and I know I'm

2519
02:28:24,160 --> 02:28:25,640
Speaker 1: not going to give up on that, on that on

2520
02:28:25,720 --> 02:28:28,280
Speaker 1: that dream of coming back there and continue to help

2521
02:28:28,640 --> 02:28:29,640
Speaker 1: with the volunteers.

2522
02:28:29,760 --> 02:28:32,400
Speaker 8: That's very kind of Yeah, well when you come down

2523
02:28:32,440 --> 02:28:34,320
Speaker 8: that me know, bring some ray tools and we can

2524
02:28:34,520 --> 02:28:37,000
Speaker 8: we can build some sounds.

2525
02:28:36,680 --> 02:28:38,879
Speaker 1: Good sounds, good fun.

2526
02:28:39,040 --> 02:28:41,680
Speaker 9: I mean, so I'm just like I'm just for processing.

2527
02:28:42,360 --> 02:28:43,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, me too, for processing this.

2528
02:28:43,959 --> 02:28:47,920
Speaker 9: And like hearing Amos say all this is like fuck,

2529
02:28:48,000 --> 02:28:50,440
Speaker 9: Like that's that's the conversation, right just with what he's

2530
02:28:50,440 --> 02:28:53,600
Speaker 9: saying in his accountability is human nature, like something in

2531
02:28:53,640 --> 02:28:55,200
Speaker 9: the way that he was saying that, I was just

2532
02:28:55,240 --> 02:28:57,320
Speaker 9: like taking a piles on everything that I want to

2533
02:28:57,320 --> 02:29:01,600
Speaker 9: just share because I really like it hit to the

2534
02:29:01,640 --> 02:29:05,120
Speaker 9: core of that. Like my own frustration with our response

2535
02:29:05,240 --> 02:29:08,480
Speaker 9: is it's not getting to the point that like what

2536
02:29:08,560 --> 02:29:10,240
Speaker 9: he was what he was saying any other words right

2537
02:29:10,240 --> 02:29:12,560
Speaker 9: now to say that my mind is now totally much.

2538
02:29:13,640 --> 02:29:16,400
Speaker 8: Well ended there. I do want to give both of

2539
02:29:16,440 --> 02:29:21,520
Speaker 8: you a chance to plug any and all organizations so

2540
02:29:21,640 --> 02:29:24,440
Speaker 8: you think can help. And because the people will get

2541
02:29:24,440 --> 02:29:26,279
Speaker 8: to listen to this, we'll break up to two parks.

2542
02:29:27,600 --> 02:29:30,480
Speaker 8: People will want to alleviate the suffering, and there are people,

2543
02:29:30,879 --> 02:29:35,200
Speaker 8: including yourselves and myself, trying to do that. So if

2544
02:29:35,240 --> 02:29:37,720
Speaker 8: there's an organization that you'd like to plug, fundraiser you'd

2545
02:29:37,720 --> 02:29:39,560
Speaker 8: like to plug, please do well.

2546
02:29:39,720 --> 02:29:44,400
Speaker 7: Just the way the conversation ended, the thing that I

2547
02:29:44,480 --> 02:29:49,039
Speaker 7: was thinking is you know, just a you know, anybody

2548
02:29:49,320 --> 02:29:54,920
Speaker 7: listening to the to what Amos has said, just one

2549
02:29:55,720 --> 02:30:02,359
Speaker 7: one very small but perhaps meaningful thing would be to

2550
02:30:02,400 --> 02:30:05,680
Speaker 7: do something to enable him to buy some presents for

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02:30:05,760 --> 02:30:08,320
Speaker 7: his kids. I think that would be pretty cool.

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02:30:10,160 --> 02:30:13,320
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

2553
02:30:13,400 --> 02:30:15,320
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

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02:30:15,879 --> 02:30:18,400
Speaker 3: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

2555
02:30:18,480 --> 02:30:21,120
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

2556
02:30:21,200 --> 02:30:23,400
Speaker 3: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

2557
02:30:23,440 --> 02:30:27,000
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

2558
02:30:27,280 --> 02:30:29,400
Speaker 3: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated

2559
02:30:29,480 --> 02:30:32,560
Speaker 3: monthly at Coolzonmedia dot com slash sources.

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02:30:32,680 --> 02:30:33,520
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening,