WEBVTT - From Some of My Best Friends Are: Everything Dope Comes from Chicago 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:21.276 Pushkin. Hey, it's Jacob Goldstein. We'll be back soon with 0:00:21.356 --> 0:00:23.956 a new episode of What's Your Problem, But in the meantime, 0:00:24.196 --> 0:00:26.796 I want to play you an episode of another Pushkin show. 0:00:27.356 --> 0:00:29.596 This show is called some of My Best Friends Are 0:00:30.076 --> 0:00:32.276 And this episode we're gonna play is an interview with 0:00:32.316 --> 0:00:34.956 a guy who talks about the relief he felt when 0:00:34.956 --> 0:00:37.876 he stopped pretending he was cool and admitted to the 0:00:37.916 --> 0:00:40.676 world that he was a nerd. So of course that 0:00:40.756 --> 0:00:44.756 immediately endeared him to me. Also in the show is 0:00:44.796 --> 0:00:50.316 the truly surprising origin of the Fireman's poll. Here's the show. 0:00:52.916 --> 0:00:55.476 I'm so happy I get to finally proclaim that I'm 0:00:55.476 --> 0:00:57.556 a nerd. Right, I don't gotta fake like I like 0:00:57.676 --> 0:01:00.516 football anymore. For my friends and all that that was, 0:01:00.716 --> 0:01:03.116 I've had to live like this double life forever, like 0:01:03.156 --> 0:01:05.876 I was cooler than I was. So I will be 0:01:05.916 --> 0:01:08.796 sitting at the super Bowl while everybody's sharing, and I 0:01:08.796 --> 0:01:12.756 would be on my phone length researcher who Charles Whacker is? 0:01:12.796 --> 0:01:15.156 Because all day long I've been trying to figure out 0:01:15.156 --> 0:01:21.356 why they call it Whacker Drive. Right, I'm Khalil Jibrad Muhammad, 0:01:21.476 --> 0:01:24.636 and I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black, 0:01:24.916 --> 0:01:28.156 one white. I'm a historian and I'm a journalist, and 0:01:28.276 --> 0:01:31.076 this is some of my best friends are. Some of 0:01:31.116 --> 0:01:34.436 my best friends are dot dot dot. In this show, 0:01:34.476 --> 0:01:37.756 we wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities of a 0:01:37.836 --> 0:01:41.316 deeply divided and unequal country. And this week the nation's 0:01:41.396 --> 0:01:45.756 leading urban historian on TikTok is joining us. Sherman Gilla 0:01:45.956 --> 0:01:51.756 Thomas joins our conversation. His tagline is Everything Dope comes 0:01:51.796 --> 0:01:54.316 from Chicago. We talk about what it means to be 0:01:54.356 --> 0:01:58.036 a booster for our hometown, a complicated place with a 0:01:58.076 --> 0:02:11.436 whole lot of history, not only the whole I am 0:02:11.476 --> 0:02:13.876 really excited this week about the conversation we're going to 0:02:13.956 --> 0:02:17.436 have with Sherman Dilla Thomas. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah. 0:02:17.516 --> 0:02:20.676 You and I are constantly talking about this balance between 0:02:20.836 --> 0:02:25.396 like like stories of tragedy and challenge and also like 0:02:25.476 --> 0:02:28.476 how do we celebrate the good things that are happening? Yeah. Yeah, 0:02:28.516 --> 0:02:30.876 this is so central to everything we do and like 0:02:30.996 --> 0:02:33.316 even even probably how we live of like you know, 0:02:33.436 --> 0:02:36.796 delving into the really complicated histories of place. Yeah, I 0:02:36.876 --> 0:02:39.516 have to live with having written a book condemnation of blackness, 0:02:39.556 --> 0:02:42.316 which people are like, oh, that sounds that sounds really positive. 0:02:42.436 --> 0:02:45.516 It's not the celebration of blackness, but in many ways, 0:02:45.636 --> 0:02:48.796 like you need both, right, Yeah, I mean so even 0:02:48.796 --> 0:02:50.636 in thinking about this of you know, what it means 0:02:50.676 --> 0:02:52.756 to celebrate a place, what it means to be a booster. 0:02:53.276 --> 0:02:56.516 Something is gained and also something is lost. But here 0:02:56.556 --> 0:02:59.196 we have this guy on the show, Sherman Dilla Thomas, 0:02:59.356 --> 0:03:01.716 who might be one of the most positive people about 0:03:01.796 --> 0:03:04.596 Chicago I've ever come across in my entire life. Yeah, 0:03:04.636 --> 0:03:06.036 I'm so glad you met him. I don't even know 0:03:06.076 --> 0:03:08.236 how how did you meet this guy? Man? I started 0:03:08.236 --> 0:03:10.476 seeing his video is all over the place, you know, 0:03:10.556 --> 0:03:13.956 and here he is like wearing white Sox gear or 0:03:13.996 --> 0:03:18.116 Bulls gear. He's like holding his microphone to his mouth, 0:03:18.516 --> 0:03:22.156 and he is just like spitting knowledge about Chicago. Like 0:03:22.276 --> 0:03:26.876 the first black NFL quarterback Hall of Famer coming from Chicago. 0:03:26.996 --> 0:03:29.716 Did I get that right? Yeah? Fritz Pollard. Fritz Pollard, 0:03:29.916 --> 0:03:31.796 you know. And he actually reached out to me because 0:03:31.836 --> 0:03:33.996 he did an episode about Cabrini Green and I wrote 0:03:34.036 --> 0:03:36.276 this book High Riser was about Cabrini Green, and so 0:03:36.556 --> 0:03:38.476 we met that way, and you know, he did this 0:03:38.516 --> 0:03:41.876 whole episode about public housing in Chicago. Yeah, and just 0:03:41.956 --> 0:03:44.556 like I've seen these in learning so much from them 0:03:44.796 --> 0:03:47.116 and then they blew up. They're all over the place. 0:03:47.356 --> 0:03:51.156 They're viral. I mean, he has reportedly over four million 0:03:51.236 --> 0:03:55.116 views counting just from last year. I mean, who knows 0:03:55.116 --> 0:03:58.916 how many more now. And he's also started a bus 0:03:58.916 --> 0:04:01.516 company to take people on actual tours of the city, 0:04:01.556 --> 0:04:05.196 Mahogany Tours. This is a really incredible use of history, right, 0:04:05.276 --> 0:04:08.476 I mean, so you're a historian, and this is history 0:04:08.556 --> 0:04:12.036 that is somehow being lived and experienced outside of books. 0:04:12.076 --> 0:04:15.316 Even it's traveling all over the place, and he's he's 0:04:15.316 --> 0:04:17.836 on the news here, he's on television. He becomes a 0:04:17.916 --> 0:04:20.716 kind of ambassador for Chicago. Yeah. Man, I'm really excited 0:04:20.756 --> 0:04:23.196 to get to know this guy too, because as a historian, 0:04:23.436 --> 0:04:26.596 it's not often the case that one I learned things 0:04:26.596 --> 0:04:29.356 I didn't know about my own city, and two that 0:04:29.516 --> 0:04:31.116 you get to use history in a way that is 0:04:31.156 --> 0:04:34.156 empowering to people who live in a city to think 0:04:34.156 --> 0:04:37.756 about their connection to folks who've come before them and 0:04:37.916 --> 0:04:40.036 use that as a kind of inspiration to say, hey, 0:04:40.076 --> 0:04:42.276 you know, I should be proud walking these streets because 0:04:42.316 --> 0:04:45.476 other people have done amazing things who've come before me. Yeah, yeah, 0:04:45.516 --> 0:04:47.756 and for me, I want to know, like, can you 0:04:47.956 --> 0:04:52.636 both extol a place and also tell about its really complicated, 0:04:52.636 --> 0:04:55.556 difficult parts at the same time. So let's hear from Dillah. 0:04:55.596 --> 0:05:06.036 Let's go talk to him, all right, Sherman Dillah Thomas, 0:05:06.076 --> 0:05:10.036 welcome to some of my best friends are Yeah, thank you, 0:05:10.116 --> 0:05:12.436 thank you, brother Ben for having me. Brother Muhammad truly 0:05:12.476 --> 0:05:14.676 island to be here. Oh man Man, I mean you. 0:05:15.156 --> 0:05:19.756 We're Chicagoans and we're Southsiders, and you are Chicago's favorite 0:05:19.916 --> 0:05:23.556 urban historian. That's right, the man, the myth legend. We 0:05:23.636 --> 0:05:26.796 are super excited about this, and this is the first 0:05:26.876 --> 0:05:28.916 time in the history of some of my best friends 0:05:28.916 --> 0:05:31.956 are we have both been referred to as brother I mean, 0:05:32.076 --> 0:05:34.116 I'm used to Brother Muhammad. I mean that, you know 0:05:34.196 --> 0:05:36.596 that kind of goes with the territory, but we didn't 0:05:36.596 --> 0:05:39.236 get a twofer until now. We're so excited to talk 0:05:39.236 --> 0:05:43.516 with you. You are the TikTok history lessons King. It's 0:05:43.516 --> 0:05:46.076 amazing what you're doing. Before we get to that, though, 0:05:46.196 --> 0:05:48.996 you go by the name Dealer, right, what's that about 0:05:49.316 --> 0:05:52.556 My mother was calling me Shern dealer like d E 0:05:52.836 --> 0:05:55.236 A L E R. Got it. She used to say 0:05:55.276 --> 0:05:57.396 that I reminded her of the used car dealers on 0:05:57.436 --> 0:06:00.876 Western I could I could get her to buy any 0:06:00.916 --> 0:06:04.236 any jump ever, and we all knew better Western Avenues, 0:06:04.276 --> 0:06:06.036 the street in Chicago where as soon as you get 0:06:06.076 --> 0:06:08.036 fifteen hundred dollars as of kids, you go there to 0:06:08.076 --> 0:06:10.476 buy your used car, it's gonna break as soon as 0:06:10.476 --> 0:06:14.156 you get home. Everybody's car does. But we do it anyway. 0:06:14.396 --> 0:06:16.916 And so that was that like her thing for me, 0:06:16.956 --> 0:06:20.636 and the kids heard Churm dealer and just start calling 0:06:20.636 --> 0:06:23.396 me diala right, you know. So that's so that's where 0:06:23.396 --> 0:06:25.876 that comes from, Della. I love it. So I know 0:06:25.996 --> 0:06:27.836 Ben knows you a little better than I do. So 0:06:27.916 --> 0:06:29.996 when did you get started, Della? And and I know 0:06:30.076 --> 0:06:32.996 your your daughter was inspiration, but just for my purposes, 0:06:33.036 --> 0:06:35.316 tell me, tell me exactly when you got started. I 0:06:35.356 --> 0:06:38.196 got started right out of November of twenty twenty. Okay, 0:06:38.516 --> 0:06:41.156 we were all in the house. Yeah, and then stuck 0:06:41.196 --> 0:06:43.196 in the house with the pandemic. You know, we're all 0:06:43.236 --> 0:06:46.756 on lockdown, and my daughter wanted to do TikTok's and 0:06:46.756 --> 0:06:52.956 the family told her, no, what's up, that's me was eight, right, 0:06:53.316 --> 0:06:55.196 and they thought that eight was a little too young 0:06:55.276 --> 0:06:58.036 to be on an app by yourself. So I later 0:06:58.396 --> 0:07:00.396 like just downloaded on my phone and you know, and 0:07:00.436 --> 0:07:04.476 anybody looking tiktokular heart out right and um and then 0:07:04.556 --> 0:07:06.036 but also I kind of figured I'd be a good 0:07:06.036 --> 0:07:08.436 way for me to just see what she's engaging in, right, 0:07:08.476 --> 0:07:12.476 you know, And so we did that. First she wanted 0:07:12.516 --> 0:07:15.156 to watch, then she wanted to dance, and because you know, 0:07:15.276 --> 0:07:17.516 I'm not the best dancer, we were doing like those 0:07:17.516 --> 0:07:21.476 little Daddy Daughter challenges. Of course I did one myself, 0:07:21.556 --> 0:07:25.076 the same thing covid times little Little Daddy Daughter Mix 0:07:25.276 --> 0:07:28.876 mixtape on TikTok Yeah, you know, just bonding with the kids. 0:07:29.116 --> 0:07:31.956 And what happened was we did wanted her friend is 0:07:32.076 --> 0:07:34.076 the same one, and her friend got like two thousand 0:07:34.156 --> 0:07:39.876 views and we got like sixty. You suck. This is 0:07:39.916 --> 0:07:44.796 all yourn so mad, like oh not just that, but 0:07:44.836 --> 0:07:47.036 like she she took like a self esteem wall, like 0:07:47.116 --> 0:07:50.316 why why her over me? And do so many things right? 0:07:50.716 --> 0:07:53.276 So I was like, you know, I know Chicago history, baby, 0:07:53.356 --> 0:07:55.396 let me let me feed you some lines that has 0:07:55.396 --> 0:07:58.956 to be the corniest intervention I've ever heard in my life. 0:07:59.876 --> 0:08:03.556 Let me do history on your TikTok. That is gonna 0:08:03.636 --> 0:08:06.036 blow your spot up, baby. I think the first one 0:08:06.076 --> 0:08:08.596 I did was like maybe telling how Chicago created the 0:08:08.636 --> 0:08:12.076 times for the country. Okay, we gotta hear that. Let's 0:08:12.116 --> 0:08:15.356 play that clip. You ever wonder why California's two hours 0:08:15.396 --> 0:08:19.036 behind Chicago or New York to an hour ahead. Well, 0:08:19.036 --> 0:08:22.676 it's because right here in Chicago we set up the 0:08:22.716 --> 0:08:26.316 time zones for the country. And it got more views 0:08:26.436 --> 0:08:28.916 than the land than what her and I did. And 0:08:28.956 --> 0:08:30.636 then so she said, do another one and let me 0:08:30.676 --> 0:08:33.676 stand next to you. Right, you just wanted to stand there, 0:08:34.116 --> 0:08:36.196 and then we did, and then that one get views, 0:08:36.556 --> 0:08:39.076 and then you just started rolling. I just started rolling. 0:08:39.236 --> 0:08:41.076 You know, have you always been a history buff? Did 0:08:41.076 --> 0:08:43.156 you always study history? Yeah, that's what I was thinking, Ben, 0:08:43.276 --> 0:08:45.316 good question. I was thinking the exact same thing. I've 0:08:45.356 --> 0:08:47.716 always been a history buff. I didn't study history. My 0:08:47.796 --> 0:08:51.236 dad was a Chicago policeman for thirty two years and 0:08:51.356 --> 0:08:56.356 he got hired on October nineteen sixty nine. So that's 0:08:56.396 --> 0:08:59.516 the pedigree I come from. And you know, they talk 0:08:59.676 --> 0:09:02.756 history in square cards. They talk history amongst each other, 0:09:03.196 --> 0:09:06.276 and then they took their kids to work with them. Right. Yeah. 0:09:06.636 --> 0:09:09.116 Can I ask you one question though about about your 0:09:09.236 --> 0:09:11.396 dad and going and going to work with him, because 0:09:11.796 --> 0:09:14.036 I never really thought about a kid going to work 0:09:14.076 --> 0:09:16.796 with their father who's a police officer. I used to 0:09:16.876 --> 0:09:19.396 go to work with my pops, who was a photojournalist 0:09:19.476 --> 0:09:21.716 for a newspaper. But I was just loading cameras. Were 0:09:21.716 --> 0:09:24.516 you putting like little bullets in the revolver to make 0:09:24.556 --> 0:09:29.076 sure Pops was all ready to go, locked and loaded? No, 0:09:29.196 --> 0:09:32.236 I'm not quite you know, really, just sit down, shut 0:09:32.316 --> 0:09:36.436 up and listen. Just a lot of that was this 0:09:36.556 --> 0:09:39.556 security detail, because I know part of what it's in 0:09:39.556 --> 0:09:43.076 your bio is pretty spectacular. Just that your father actually 0:09:44.116 --> 0:09:48.796 worked as security detail with Harold Washington, right, who was 0:09:48.876 --> 0:09:53.076 Chicago's first black mayor, elected in nineteen eighty three. Yeah, yeah, 0:09:53.116 --> 0:09:55.996 he worked at security detail. He worked here, mostly used detail. 0:09:56.116 --> 0:09:59.116 He worked about Russia's detail. You know that. That's what 0:09:59.156 --> 0:10:02.556 I'm saying. That particular time frame, right as black politicians 0:10:02.556 --> 0:10:06.196 are making this you know, surge, they are picking their 0:10:06.236 --> 0:10:09.476 own to protect them. Chicago was unique that it had 0:10:09.996 --> 0:10:13.116 started off as an Afro American Patrolman's League. Now they 0:10:13.156 --> 0:10:15.596 called the African American Police League, but it was like 0:10:15.676 --> 0:10:17.996 a union inside of the Union's the reason why they're 0:10:18.036 --> 0:10:21.196 black sergeants is the reason why they're black firefighters. Right. 0:10:21.236 --> 0:10:23.716 They sued the city and got that famous injunction to 0:10:23.876 --> 0:10:27.956 change the entry exams for both the fire and police department, 0:10:27.956 --> 0:10:30.716 as was as the sergeant exams. Right, you're giving us 0:10:31.036 --> 0:10:34.996 a TikTok history lesson about the afroma. That's just like 0:10:35.036 --> 0:10:37.156 it's coming out of your pores. It started off as 0:10:37.196 --> 0:10:40.636 an Afro American Patrolman's League, and what it was it 0:10:40.836 --> 0:10:45.596 was started by Renault Robinson Howard Saffo, And what it 0:10:45.836 --> 0:10:48.796 was was, I'll give you an example, Right, a white 0:10:48.796 --> 0:10:51.516 cop could wear across to work because it's considered a 0:10:51.596 --> 0:10:54.796 religious symbol. And during the nineteen sixties, the black power 0:10:54.836 --> 0:10:58.196 movement was coming into effect, right, going into the nineteen seventies. Right, 0:10:58.196 --> 0:11:00.956 we're Afros, we were proud, and so black officers would 0:11:00.956 --> 0:11:03.316 want to wear an arc, which is also considered a 0:11:03.396 --> 0:11:09.436 religious signal, especially Egyptian religious comedic religions. Right, but medic 0:11:09.716 --> 0:11:12.876 meaning Egyptian related, Right, I mean it's it's spelled on 0:11:13.276 --> 0:11:15.396 a n k H. It's a type of cross that 0:11:15.916 --> 0:11:19.476 we would wear like a necklace, right, meaning Egyptian related. Absolutely, 0:11:19.556 --> 0:11:22.756 and black officers would get suspended for wearing their aunts, 0:11:22.956 --> 0:11:27.316 but white officers would not get suspended for wearing their crosses. Right. Uh. 0:11:27.516 --> 0:11:30.196 And so those are the things that activated the AFRO 0:11:30.836 --> 0:11:33.636 founded as the Afro American Police League to fight back. 0:11:33.956 --> 0:11:36.476 Like I said, you could see your brother being harassed 0:11:36.516 --> 0:11:39.676 by white cops. You're a cop, your brother in blue, 0:11:39.796 --> 0:11:42.556 your not your brother, you're your blood brother, and so 0:11:43.356 --> 0:11:45.596 um you could see your bin. You can see your 0:11:45.636 --> 0:11:47.516 brother getting harassed. You're black, dude. You see your brother 0:11:47.516 --> 0:11:49.676 getting harrassed back cops. You pull up, Hey, guys, I'm 0:11:49.716 --> 0:11:52.756 a cop. Show your badge. Right. That cop would get 0:11:52.756 --> 0:11:56.316 suspended all the time for interfering with police issues, right, 0:11:56.836 --> 0:12:00.156 the black cop who was interceding on behalf of somebody 0:12:00.196 --> 0:12:02.476 being harassed by a white cop all the time. So 0:12:02.596 --> 0:12:06.156 that's what started it. That's what that league was founded for. Yeah, 0:12:06.156 --> 0:12:09.156 it's an amazing than even telling that story because of 0:12:09.276 --> 0:12:11.796 celebrating this organization and the leaders and even the work 0:12:11.796 --> 0:12:14.556 that your father did working in it, and the very 0:12:14.636 --> 0:12:18.156 reason for its founding is that cops needed to fight 0:12:18.556 --> 0:12:22.076 racism and oppression and corruption within their own ranks. I 0:12:22.116 --> 0:12:24.236 wanted to just say, just as a matter of like 0:12:24.316 --> 0:12:28.116 political history. You mentioned Senator Carol Moseley Braun, who is 0:12:28.156 --> 0:12:30.956 the first black female senator in the history of the nation, 0:12:31.316 --> 0:12:34.396 and she's only the second black senator at any point 0:12:34.436 --> 0:12:37.316 after the reconstruction period. And here's a clip of Carol 0:12:37.356 --> 0:12:40.236 Moseley Braun from her nineteen ninety two run for senator. 0:12:40.436 --> 0:12:43.876 All over the state, the feeling about this candidacy is electric, 0:12:44.116 --> 0:12:47.076 and it's electric precisely because people know that we make 0:12:47.196 --> 0:12:49.876 that this is a watershed election and that it's time 0:12:50.116 --> 0:12:53.356 for change. It's time for change in Illinois, It's time 0:12:53.356 --> 0:12:55.996 for change in this country. I say that to say that, like, 0:12:56.676 --> 0:13:00.236 that's a really big political moment for you to be 0:13:00.916 --> 0:13:03.116 like as a kid on the lap of your father 0:13:03.196 --> 0:13:06.796 who's directly connected to these people. That, for my purposes, 0:13:06.836 --> 0:13:10.116 that makes you an eyewitness to history. I'll rock your 0:13:09.916 --> 0:13:12.956 your educational brain even more. Right. I think the reason 0:13:12.956 --> 0:13:14.756 why they let me stay in the room because when 0:13:14.796 --> 0:13:16.916 she was making I remember it like it was yesterday. 0:13:17.076 --> 0:13:20.236 We were at Sherman Park. This was like July doing 0:13:20.276 --> 0:13:23.036 that one of those votes from me campaign things, right, yeah, 0:13:23.516 --> 0:13:25.756 on the south side, yes, sir. And so she had 0:13:25.796 --> 0:13:28.636 like a campaign riley thing at Sherman Park and she 0:13:28.716 --> 0:13:31.076 was sitting in the front. My dad was driving another car. 0:13:31.196 --> 0:13:33.556 Cop was sitting next to me. And this was the 0:13:33.636 --> 0:13:36.876 Peewee Little League Championship, and I chose to go with 0:13:36.956 --> 0:13:40.036 my dad. Didn't play in the Peewee Little League Championship. 0:13:40.836 --> 0:13:44.836 But I remember the conversation she said. You know, they 0:13:44.836 --> 0:13:46.756 were like, can you believe you're getting ready to be 0:13:46.796 --> 0:13:50.236 the first woman ever, first black woman ever, US Senator? 0:13:50.436 --> 0:13:52.956 And then the same thing you said, they mentioned reconstruction, 0:13:53.276 --> 0:13:56.316 and then she said, well that's the Chicago thing, baby, 0:13:56.356 --> 0:14:00.156 because the priest was refirst to go to Congress since 0:14:00.236 --> 0:14:03.076 reconstruction too, right, And I'm you know, ten to eleven 0:14:03.236 --> 0:14:05.556 or something like that, but I couldn't wait to use 0:14:05.596 --> 0:14:10.596 it the next time I was around my dad people. Yeah, 0:14:10.676 --> 0:14:14.836 So that's that's a really strong impression, both in terms 0:14:14.836 --> 0:14:17.476 of like seeing this person who you know, is larger 0:14:17.476 --> 0:14:20.796 than life in terms of her political achievements, and at 0:14:20.836 --> 0:14:23.956 the same time, like getting these history lessons from this 0:14:24.076 --> 0:14:27.916 same person. That's pretty incredible. I don't think right now, 0:14:27.956 --> 0:14:30.556 I'm probably like that is a dopus hill, right, you 0:14:30.636 --> 0:14:33.196 just feel like, yeah, I didn't have all those thoughts there. 0:14:34.516 --> 0:14:39.356 That was I promised I did not, even most recently, right, 0:14:39.476 --> 0:14:41.916 Like I just wanted to be around my pot got it, 0:14:42.076 --> 0:14:44.836 you know that was that was because he was a cop. 0:14:45.116 --> 0:14:48.476 He wasn't really home a lot, especially young ages. You know, 0:14:48.516 --> 0:14:51.236 I don't remember him at all, six seven, eight years old. 0:14:51.436 --> 0:14:54.316 I remember one time he got shot and I celebrated 0:14:54.716 --> 0:14:58.796 because I was like, he for sure the way to 0:14:58.516 --> 0:15:03.356 get get them some quality time, man, he would like 0:15:03.396 --> 0:15:06.196 to do the next day. Yeah, he got shot in 0:15:06.316 --> 0:15:10.516 his hand and they wrapped so whatever, and he went 0:15:10.556 --> 0:15:12.996 back the next I was so pissed off. It must 0:15:12.996 --> 0:15:20.876 not have been a shooting hand though. Right. That's hilarious. Okay, 0:15:20.876 --> 0:15:23.356 so we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, 0:15:23.436 --> 0:15:39.716 we'll dig into more Chicago history stories from Dillah. All right, 0:15:39.836 --> 0:15:43.596 we are back talking to Sherman Dilla Thomas, the Chicago 0:15:43.676 --> 0:15:48.396 booster and oral historian. So, Dillah, one of your taglines 0:15:48.756 --> 0:15:52.036 is everything dope comes from Chicago. You're like one of 0:15:52.116 --> 0:15:55.956 Chicago's biggest boosters. You celebrate this city and maybe just 0:15:56.036 --> 0:15:58.676 like you know, tell us something dope that came from 0:15:58.756 --> 0:16:01.156 Chicago that would surprise us, give us one of these 0:16:01.156 --> 0:16:05.476 little history lessons. The fireman's pole, I think surprises most people. 0:16:05.876 --> 0:16:09.316 The fireman's pole, like it's use a sliding down the hole, 0:16:09.396 --> 0:16:12.516 comes from Chicago. It's about eighteen seventy four. Is eighteen 0:16:12.556 --> 0:16:16.396 seventy five, and coming out of reconstruction, Chicago has created 0:16:16.436 --> 0:16:19.196 and all black fire engine. This engine twenty one the 0:16:19.356 --> 0:16:22.396 land by a white captain. But it's you know, twelve 0:16:22.516 --> 0:16:26.196 fourteen brothers that fight fires in black. It's growing black 0:16:26.236 --> 0:16:29.156 neighborhoods right that Chicago is starting a half we've ever 0:16:29.236 --> 0:16:31.316 been in the fire station, you'll notice that it has 0:16:31.356 --> 0:16:34.156 spiral stairs, when every fire station in the world has 0:16:34.436 --> 0:16:37.436 spiral stairs, and the next to it is where the 0:16:37.476 --> 0:16:40.276 pole is. The reason why the stairs a spiral is 0:16:40.316 --> 0:16:42.996 because we used to fight fires with horses. The horses 0:16:43.076 --> 0:16:44.756 used to walk up the stairs and eat all the 0:16:44.796 --> 0:16:46.756 hay and then you be looking for the horse and 0:16:46.836 --> 0:16:49.756 he up that sleep, right, So they created the spiral 0:16:49.836 --> 0:16:51.676 stairs so the horse couldn't get up there. And the 0:16:51.796 --> 0:16:54.276 next two it was they had the pole for the 0:16:54.316 --> 0:16:56.916 hay loft right, So the hay is kept up in 0:16:56.996 --> 0:16:59.676 the third floor because typically that's the highest place, right, 0:16:59.676 --> 0:17:01.676 Hey needs to be dry, so you keep it up 0:17:01.756 --> 0:17:04.156 high in the third floor and hay lofts right. And 0:17:04.196 --> 0:17:06.996 then it was held in place with a pole. And 0:17:07.036 --> 0:17:09.636 then because we lazy humans, right when the horse needed Hey, 0:17:09.676 --> 0:17:11.596 you kicked the pole out the way and hey drops 0:17:11.596 --> 0:17:13.036 down now where you ain't got to go all the 0:17:13.036 --> 0:17:14.716 way up to the third floor. So it wasn't for 0:17:14.956 --> 0:17:17.436 for firemen sliding down it, not at all. It was 0:17:17.476 --> 0:17:19.756 just a letter. But you know who we don't talk 0:17:19.796 --> 0:17:22.276 about enough in Chicago is the captain that like the 0:17:22.316 --> 0:17:25.756 sad of his name is Captain Cooley Duan. He was 0:17:25.796 --> 0:17:28.476 a hero of the Chicago fire in eighteen seventy one. 0:17:28.636 --> 0:17:30.556 And when he's seen the black guys slid down that 0:17:30.796 --> 0:17:33.156 that hey, poll he's the guy that was like, yeah, 0:17:33.196 --> 0:17:35.636 that's genius, go ahead and send it, so y'all don't 0:17:35.676 --> 0:17:37.916 get splinters. And this is how we will respond from 0:17:37.916 --> 0:17:40.556 here on out. So, Dylan, I'm listening to you. And like, 0:17:40.836 --> 0:17:43.076 you know, Khalil and I are both you know, we 0:17:43.196 --> 0:17:45.596 both write books, we both do tons of research, we 0:17:45.716 --> 0:17:48.516 both write about Chicago like how do you get all 0:17:48.516 --> 0:17:51.356 this information? Like how were you? What kind of research 0:17:51.396 --> 0:17:54.076 do you do? And also like damn man, like you 0:17:54.156 --> 0:17:56.396 got this all off the dome's what's up? Like you 0:17:56.436 --> 0:17:59.796 remember all this jay Z ruined my life. So we'll 0:17:59.836 --> 0:18:02.876 start there. I remember that that famous interview he did 0:18:03.036 --> 0:18:05.156 where he was like, I don't write and it was 0:18:05.196 --> 0:18:07.516 like what and he was like, you know, I just 0:18:07.516 --> 0:18:10.116 say my rhymes and myself been ovan by the time 0:18:10.196 --> 0:18:11.716 I get back to the house, I don't need to 0:18:11.716 --> 0:18:14.556 write them down right there. It becomes an exercise. I 0:18:14.596 --> 0:18:17.556 went to Eastern Illinois University majoring in English and African 0:18:17.556 --> 0:18:20.516 American studies and probably wrote three papers because I would 0:18:20.556 --> 0:18:22.796 always say, let me give it to you orally. Right. 0:18:22.996 --> 0:18:26.276 So when when people read say like your book High Rises, right, 0:18:26.396 --> 0:18:29.876 like oh oh man, good look at them. Yeah, I 0:18:29.956 --> 0:18:32.916 jacked so much stuff out of that book, then better 0:18:32.956 --> 0:18:36.236 than that, I immediately want to read the stuff that 0:18:36.316 --> 0:18:38.876 you sourced from right right, you know, And though those 0:18:38.916 --> 0:18:41.956 are the cheats that I think people people forget about, 0:18:41.996 --> 0:18:46.156 right we want to run in Wikipedia and other online sources, 0:18:46.556 --> 0:18:48.516 A lot of that stuff ain't online, and that in 0:18:48.516 --> 0:18:51.396 that in that way, right you gotta like dog. So 0:18:51.756 --> 0:18:54.676 you're just you're reading all the time and going to 0:18:54.676 --> 0:18:56.436 the library and picking up books. I mean you're like 0:18:56.476 --> 0:18:59.036 just he's reading footnotes. Man, that's more than just reading. 0:18:59.036 --> 0:19:01.516 That's footnotes. Yeah. Yeah, I'm so happy I get to 0:19:01.836 --> 0:19:04.436 finally proclaim that I'm a nerd. Right, I don't gotta 0:19:04.476 --> 0:19:07.236 think like I like football anymore. For my friends and 0:19:07.276 --> 0:19:09.356 all that that was, I've had to live like this 0:19:09.476 --> 0:19:12.476 double life forever. Like I was way cooler than I was. 0:19:12.676 --> 0:19:15.316 So I would be sitting at the super Bowl while 0:19:15.316 --> 0:19:17.596 everybody's cheering, and I would be on my phone, like 0:19:18.476 --> 0:19:21.916 researching who Charles Whacker is, because all day long I've 0:19:21.916 --> 0:19:24.276 been trying to figure out why they call it Whacker drive. Right, 0:19:24.356 --> 0:19:27.956 So like researching is my pasttime, you know what I mean, 0:19:28.036 --> 0:19:31.636 Like I allow an idea to formulate, or I fixate 0:19:31.756 --> 0:19:34.916 on something and then you know, I'm researching on that thing, 0:19:34.956 --> 0:19:37.476 and then out of that you get so many you know, 0:19:37.556 --> 0:19:40.476 bread chromes and those type of things. So that's just 0:19:40.516 --> 0:19:43.116 how I passed the time. You mentioned my book High Risers, 0:19:43.116 --> 0:19:45.516 which is about Cabrini Green, a public house and complex 0:19:45.556 --> 0:19:48.036 sens in Chicago, and I think I wrote it for 0:19:48.076 --> 0:19:50.076 a lot of the reasons you're talking about. What you 0:19:50.116 --> 0:19:54.156 do is that this was a place that was demonized 0:19:54.236 --> 0:19:57.396 because of its poverty and also violence. And you did 0:19:57.396 --> 0:20:01.076 a TikTok related to my book. Let's press the TikTok 0:20:01.156 --> 0:20:03.916 machine and listen to it. Pretty impossible to discuss the 0:20:03.996 --> 0:20:06.716 history of Cabrini Green in sixty seconds. I'm going to 0:20:06.796 --> 0:20:09.236 give it a try. And that the stories there were 0:20:09.316 --> 0:20:12.956 much more complex and many many lives that needed to 0:20:12.956 --> 0:20:14.876 be you know, and many stories that needed to be 0:20:14.916 --> 0:20:17.676 told that weren't being covered. But you did do a 0:20:17.716 --> 0:20:19.956 TikTok about Cabrini Green. And when you posted it and 0:20:20.036 --> 0:20:23.356 mentioned my book, you said I owed you a hot dog. Yeah, 0:20:23.636 --> 0:20:26.036 yeah right. I gotta believe the one I got the 0:20:26.116 --> 0:20:29.556 receipts because at least a dozen people, and I didn't 0:20:29.596 --> 0:20:32.716 just post your book. I said, buy this book. Man. 0:20:32.756 --> 0:20:35.516 That is great. We got to hear that clip. Despite it, 0:20:35.596 --> 0:20:37.876 all the residents of Cabrini Green had a great sense 0:20:37.916 --> 0:20:41.956 of community by this book. I think the TikTok with 0:20:42.076 --> 0:20:45.596 the first posting gay like maybe a hundred thirty thousand views. 0:20:45.596 --> 0:20:47.516 How much you're paying for a commercial for one hundred 0:20:47.556 --> 0:20:50.996 and thirty thousand people. So I'll get you a hot 0:20:50.996 --> 0:20:53.196 dog if you could, If you could tell us what 0:20:53.396 --> 0:20:56.316 is the history of the Chicago style hot dog? You know, 0:20:56.436 --> 0:21:00.716 no one knows that it's such a wives tale sort 0:21:00.756 --> 0:21:03.036 of thing, right, the no catchup. The best that I 0:21:03.076 --> 0:21:05.876 can find is that there are already so many ingredients 0:21:05.876 --> 0:21:08.276 on it that you don't you don't need to catch up, right, 0:21:08.356 --> 0:21:10.516 I tell you the ords like Italian beef. I love 0:21:10.556 --> 0:21:13.036 telling that story. Bring it, Come on with that story. 0:21:13.156 --> 0:21:16.196 So you know, two of the most iconic Chicago foods 0:21:16.196 --> 0:21:19.076 are the hot dog and then of course Italian beef 0:21:19.356 --> 0:21:22.876