Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, it's Jacob Goldstein. We'll be back soon with
Speaker 1: a new episode of What's Your Problem, But in the meantime,
Speaker 1: I want to play you an episode of another Pushkin show.
Speaker 1: This show is called some of My Best Friends Are
Speaker 1: And this episode we're gonna play is an interview with
Speaker 1: a guy who talks about the relief he felt when
Speaker 1: he stopped pretending he was cool and admitted to the
Speaker 1: world that he was a nerd. So of course that
Speaker 1: immediately endeared him to me. Also in the show is
Speaker 1: the truly surprising origin of the Fireman's poll. Here's the show.
Speaker 1: I'm so happy I get to finally proclaim that I'm
Speaker 1: a nerd. Right, I don't gotta fake like I like
Speaker 1: football anymore. For my friends and all that that was,
Speaker 1: I've had to live like this double life forever, like
Speaker 1: I was cooler than I was. So I will be
Speaker 1: sitting at the super Bowl while everybody's sharing, and I
Speaker 1: would be on my phone length researcher who Charles Whacker is?
Speaker 1: Because all day long I've been trying to figure out
Speaker 1: why they call it Whacker Drive. Right, I'm Khalil Jibrad Muhammad,
Speaker 1: and I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black,
Speaker 1: one white. I'm a historian and I'm a journalist, and
Speaker 1: this is some of my best friends are. Some of
Speaker 1: my best friends are dot dot dot. In this show,
Speaker 1: we wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities of a
Speaker 1: deeply divided and unequal country. And this week the nation's
Speaker 1: leading urban historian on TikTok is joining us. Sherman Gilla
Speaker 1: Thomas joins our conversation. His tagline is Everything Dope comes
Speaker 1: from Chicago. We talk about what it means to be
Speaker 1: a booster for our hometown, a complicated place with a
Speaker 1: whole lot of history, not only the whole I am
Speaker 1: really excited this week about the conversation we're going to
Speaker 1: have with Sherman Dilla Thomas. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: You and I are constantly talking about this balance between
Speaker 1: like like stories of tragedy and challenge and also like
Speaker 1: how do we celebrate the good things that are happening? Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is so central to everything we do and like
Speaker 1: even even probably how we live of like you know,
Speaker 1: delving into the really complicated histories of place. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: have to live with having written a book condemnation of blackness,
Speaker 1: which people are like, oh, that sounds that sounds really positive.
Speaker 1: It's not the celebration of blackness, but in many ways,
Speaker 1: like you need both, right, Yeah, I mean so even
Speaker 1: in thinking about this of you know, what it means
Speaker 1: to celebrate a place, what it means to be a booster.
Speaker 1: Something is gained and also something is lost. But here
Speaker 1: we have this guy on the show, Sherman Dilla Thomas,
Speaker 1: who might be one of the most positive people about
Speaker 1: Chicago I've ever come across in my entire life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you met him. I don't even know
Speaker 1: how how did you meet this guy? Man? I started
Speaker 1: seeing his video is all over the place, you know,
Speaker 1: and here he is like wearing white Sox gear or
Speaker 1: Bulls gear. He's like holding his microphone to his mouth,
Speaker 1: and he is just like spitting knowledge about Chicago. Like
Speaker 1: the first black NFL quarterback Hall of Famer coming from Chicago.
Speaker 1: Did I get that right? Yeah? Fritz Pollard. Fritz Pollard,
Speaker 1: you know. And he actually reached out to me because
Speaker 1: he did an episode about Cabrini Green and I wrote
Speaker 1: this book High Riser was about Cabrini Green, and so
Speaker 1: we met that way, and you know, he did this
Speaker 1: whole episode about public housing in Chicago. Yeah, and just
Speaker 1: like I've seen these in learning so much from them
Speaker 1: and then they blew up. They're all over the place.
Speaker 1: They're viral. I mean, he has reportedly over four million
Speaker 1: views counting just from last year. I mean, who knows
Speaker 1: how many more now. And he's also started a bus
Speaker 1: company to take people on actual tours of the city,
Speaker 1: Mahogany Tours. This is a really incredible use of history, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, so you're a historian, and this is history
Speaker 1: that is somehow being lived and experienced outside of books.
Speaker 1: Even it's traveling all over the place, and he's he's
Speaker 1: on the news here, he's on television. He becomes a
Speaker 1: kind of ambassador for Chicago. Yeah. Man, I'm really excited
Speaker 1: to get to know this guy too, because as a historian,
Speaker 1: it's not often the case that one I learned things
Speaker 1: I didn't know about my own city, and two that
Speaker 1: you get to use history in a way that is
Speaker 1: empowering to people who live in a city to think
Speaker 1: about their connection to folks who've come before them and
Speaker 1: use that as a kind of inspiration to say, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, I should be proud walking these streets because
Speaker 1: other people have done amazing things who've come before me. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and for me, I want to know, like, can you
Speaker 1: both extol a place and also tell about its really complicated,
Speaker 1: difficult parts at the same time. So let's hear from Dillah.
Speaker 1: Let's go talk to him, all right, Sherman Dillah Thomas,
Speaker 1: welcome to some of my best friends are Yeah, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, brother Ben for having me. Brother Muhammad truly
Speaker 1: island to be here. Oh man Man, I mean you.
Speaker 1: We're Chicagoans and we're Southsiders, and you are Chicago's favorite
Speaker 1: urban historian. That's right, the man, the myth legend. We
Speaker 1: are super excited about this, and this is the first
Speaker 1: time in the history of some of my best friends
Speaker 1: are we have both been referred to as brother I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm used to Brother Muhammad. I mean that, you know
Speaker 1: that kind of goes with the territory, but we didn't
Speaker 1: get a twofer until now. We're so excited to talk
Speaker 1: with you. You are the TikTok history lessons King. It's
Speaker 1: amazing what you're doing. Before we get to that, though,
Speaker 1: you go by the name Dealer, right, what's that about
Speaker 1: My mother was calling me Shern dealer like d E
Speaker 1: A L E R. Got it. She used to say
Speaker 1: that I reminded her of the used car dealers on
Speaker 1: Western I could I could get her to buy any
Speaker 1: any jump ever, and we all knew better Western Avenues,
Speaker 1: the street in Chicago where as soon as you get
Speaker 1: fifteen hundred dollars as of kids, you go there to
Speaker 1: buy your used car, it's gonna break as soon as
Speaker 1: you get home. Everybody's car does. But we do it anyway.
Speaker 1: And so that was that like her thing for me,
Speaker 1: and the kids heard Churm dealer and just start calling
Speaker 1: me diala right, you know. So that's so that's where
Speaker 1: that comes from, Della. I love it. So I know
Speaker 1: Ben knows you a little better than I do. So
Speaker 1: when did you get started, Della? And and I know
Speaker 1: your your daughter was inspiration, but just for my purposes,
Speaker 1: tell me, tell me exactly when you got started. I
Speaker 1: got started right out of November of twenty twenty. Okay,
Speaker 1: we were all in the house. Yeah, and then stuck
Speaker 1: in the house with the pandemic. You know, we're all
Speaker 1: on lockdown, and my daughter wanted to do TikTok's and
Speaker 1: the family told her, no, what's up, that's me was eight, right,
Speaker 1: and they thought that eight was a little too young
Speaker 1: to be on an app by yourself. So I later
Speaker 1: like just downloaded on my phone and you know, and
Speaker 1: anybody looking tiktokular heart out right and um and then
Speaker 1: but also I kind of figured I'd be a good
Speaker 1: way for me to just see what she's engaging in, right,
Speaker 1: you know, And so we did that. First she wanted
Speaker 1: to watch, then she wanted to dance, and because you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not the best dancer, we were doing like those
Speaker 1: little Daddy Daughter challenges. Of course I did one myself,
Speaker 1: the same thing covid times little Little Daddy Daughter Mix
Speaker 1: mixtape on TikTok Yeah, you know, just bonding with the kids.
Speaker 1: And what happened was we did wanted her friend is
Speaker 1: the same one, and her friend got like two thousand
Speaker 1: views and we got like sixty. You suck. This is
Speaker 1: all yourn so mad, like oh not just that, but
Speaker 1: like she she took like a self esteem wall, like
Speaker 1: why why her over me? And do so many things right?
Speaker 1: So I was like, you know, I know Chicago history, baby,
Speaker 1: let me let me feed you some lines that has
Speaker 1: to be the corniest intervention I've ever heard in my life.
Speaker 1: Let me do history on your TikTok. That is gonna
Speaker 1: blow your spot up, baby. I think the first one
Speaker 1: I did was like maybe telling how Chicago created the
Speaker 1: times for the country. Okay, we gotta hear that. Let's
Speaker 1: play that clip. You ever wonder why California's two hours
Speaker 1: behind Chicago or New York to an hour ahead. Well,
Speaker 1: it's because right here in Chicago we set up the
Speaker 1: time zones for the country. And it got more views
Speaker 1: than the land than what her and I did. And
Speaker 1: then so she said, do another one and let me
Speaker 1: stand next to you. Right, you just wanted to stand there,
Speaker 1: and then we did, and then that one get views,
Speaker 1: and then you just started rolling. I just started rolling.
Speaker 1: You know, have you always been a history buff? Did
Speaker 1: you always study history? Yeah, that's what I was thinking, Ben,
Speaker 1: good question. I was thinking the exact same thing. I've
Speaker 1: always been a history buff. I didn't study history. My
Speaker 1: dad was a Chicago policeman for thirty two years and
Speaker 1: he got hired on October nineteen sixty nine. So that's
Speaker 1: the pedigree I come from. And you know, they talk
Speaker 1: history in square cards. They talk history amongst each other,
Speaker 1: and then they took their kids to work with them. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you one question though about about your
Speaker 1: dad and going and going to work with him, because
Speaker 1: I never really thought about a kid going to work
Speaker 1: with their father who's a police officer. I used to
Speaker 1: go to work with my pops, who was a photojournalist
Speaker 1: for a newspaper. But I was just loading cameras. Were
Speaker 1: you putting like little bullets in the revolver to make
Speaker 1: sure Pops was all ready to go, locked and loaded? No,
Speaker 1: I'm not quite you know, really, just sit down, shut
Speaker 1: up and listen. Just a lot of that was this
Speaker 1: security detail, because I know part of what it's in
Speaker 1: your bio is pretty spectacular. Just that your father actually
Speaker 1: worked as security detail with Harold Washington, right, who was
Speaker 1: Chicago's first black mayor, elected in nineteen eighty three. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he worked at security detail. He worked here, mostly used detail.
Speaker 1: He worked about Russia's detail. You know that. That's what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. That particular time frame, right as black politicians
Speaker 1: are making this you know, surge, they are picking their
Speaker 1: own to protect them. Chicago was unique that it had
Speaker 1: started off as an Afro American Patrolman's League. Now they
Speaker 1: called the African American Police League, but it was like
Speaker 1: a union inside of the Union's the reason why they're
Speaker 1: black sergeants is the reason why they're black firefighters. Right.
Speaker 1: They sued the city and got that famous injunction to
Speaker 1: change the entry exams for both the fire and police department,
Speaker 1: as was as the sergeant exams. Right, you're giving us
Speaker 1: a TikTok history lesson about the afroma. That's just like
Speaker 1: it's coming out of your pores. It started off as
Speaker 1: an Afro American Patrolman's League, and what it was it
Speaker 1: was started by Renault Robinson Howard Saffo, And what it
Speaker 1: was was, I'll give you an example, Right, a white
Speaker 1: cop could wear across to work because it's considered a
Speaker 1: religious symbol. And during the nineteen sixties, the black power
Speaker 1: movement was coming into effect, right, going into the nineteen seventies. Right,
Speaker 1: we're Afros, we were proud, and so black officers would
Speaker 1: want to wear an arc, which is also considered a
Speaker 1: religious signal, especially Egyptian religious comedic religions. Right, but medic
Speaker 1: meaning Egyptian related, Right, I mean it's it's spelled on
Speaker 1: a n k H. It's a type of cross that
Speaker 1: we would wear like a necklace, right, meaning Egyptian related. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: and black officers would get suspended for wearing their aunts,
Speaker 1: but white officers would not get suspended for wearing their crosses. Right. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so those are the things that activated the AFRO
Speaker 1: founded as the Afro American Police League to fight back.
Speaker 1: Like I said, you could see your brother being harassed
Speaker 1: by white cops. You're a cop, your brother in blue,
Speaker 1: your not your brother, you're your blood brother, and so
Speaker 1: um you could see your bin. You can see your
Speaker 1: brother getting harassed. You're black, dude. You see your brother
Speaker 1: getting harrassed back cops. You pull up, Hey, guys, I'm
Speaker 1: a cop. Show your badge. Right. That cop would get
Speaker 1: suspended all the time for interfering with police issues, right,
Speaker 1: the black cop who was interceding on behalf of somebody
Speaker 1: being harassed by a white cop all the time. So
Speaker 1: that's what started it. That's what that league was founded for. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's an amazing than even telling that story because of
Speaker 1: celebrating this organization and the leaders and even the work
Speaker 1: that your father did working in it, and the very
Speaker 1: reason for its founding is that cops needed to fight
Speaker 1: racism and oppression and corruption within their own ranks. I
Speaker 1: wanted to just say, just as a matter of like
Speaker 1: political history. You mentioned Senator Carol Moseley Braun, who is
Speaker 1: the first black female senator in the history of the nation,
Speaker 1: and she's only the second black senator at any point
Speaker 1: after the reconstruction period. And here's a clip of Carol
Speaker 1: Moseley Braun from her nineteen ninety two run for senator.
Speaker 1: All over the state, the feeling about this candidacy is electric,
Speaker 1: and it's electric precisely because people know that we make
Speaker 1: that this is a watershed election and that it's time
Speaker 1: for change. It's time for change in Illinois, It's time
Speaker 1: for change in this country. I say that to say that, like,
Speaker 1: that's a really big political moment for you to be
Speaker 1: like as a kid on the lap of your father
Speaker 1: who's directly connected to these people. That, for my purposes,
Speaker 1: that makes you an eyewitness to history. I'll rock your
Speaker 1: your educational brain even more. Right. I think the reason
Speaker 1: why they let me stay in the room because when
Speaker 1: she was making I remember it like it was yesterday.
Speaker 1: We were at Sherman Park. This was like July doing
Speaker 1: that one of those votes from me campaign things, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: on the south side, yes, sir. And so she had
Speaker 1: like a campaign riley thing at Sherman Park and she
Speaker 1: was sitting in the front. My dad was driving another car.
Speaker 1: Cop was sitting next to me. And this was the
Speaker 1: Peewee Little League Championship, and I chose to go with
Speaker 1: my dad. Didn't play in the Peewee Little League Championship.
Speaker 1: But I remember the conversation she said. You know, they
Speaker 1: were like, can you believe you're getting ready to be
Speaker 1: the first woman ever, first black woman ever, US Senator?
Speaker 1: And then the same thing you said, they mentioned reconstruction,
Speaker 1: and then she said, well that's the Chicago thing, baby,
Speaker 1: because the priest was refirst to go to Congress since
Speaker 1: reconstruction too, right, And I'm you know, ten to eleven
Speaker 1: or something like that, but I couldn't wait to use
Speaker 1: it the next time I was around my dad people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So that's that's a really strong impression, both in terms
Speaker 1: of like seeing this person who you know, is larger
Speaker 1: than life in terms of her political achievements, and at
Speaker 1: the same time, like getting these history lessons from this
Speaker 1: same person. That's pretty incredible. I don't think right now,
Speaker 1: I'm probably like that is a dopus hill, right, you
Speaker 1: just feel like, yeah, I didn't have all those thoughts there.
Speaker 1: That was I promised I did not, even most recently, right,
Speaker 1: Like I just wanted to be around my pot got it,
Speaker 1: you know that was that was because he was a cop.
Speaker 1: He wasn't really home a lot, especially young ages. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't remember him at all, six seven, eight years old.
Speaker 1: I remember one time he got shot and I celebrated
Speaker 1: because I was like, he for sure the way to
Speaker 1: get get them some quality time, man, he would like
Speaker 1: to do the next day. Yeah, he got shot in
Speaker 1: his hand and they wrapped so whatever, and he went
Speaker 1: back the next I was so pissed off. It must
Speaker 1: not have been a shooting hand though. Right. That's hilarious. Okay,
Speaker 1: so we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back,
Speaker 1: we'll dig into more Chicago history stories from Dillah. All right,
Speaker 1: we are back talking to Sherman Dilla Thomas, the Chicago
Speaker 1: booster and oral historian. So, Dillah, one of your taglines
Speaker 1: is everything dope comes from Chicago. You're like one of
Speaker 1: Chicago's biggest boosters. You celebrate this city and maybe just
Speaker 1: like you know, tell us something dope that came from
Speaker 1: Chicago that would surprise us, give us one of these
Speaker 1: little history lessons. The fireman's pole, I think surprises most people.
Speaker 1: The fireman's pole, like it's use a sliding down the hole,
Speaker 1: comes from Chicago. It's about eighteen seventy four. Is eighteen
Speaker 1: seventy five, and coming out of reconstruction, Chicago has created
Speaker 1: and all black fire engine. This engine twenty one the
Speaker 1: land by a white captain. But it's you know, twelve
Speaker 1: fourteen brothers that fight fires in black. It's growing black
Speaker 1: neighborhoods right that Chicago is starting a half we've ever
Speaker 1: been in the fire station, you'll notice that it has
Speaker 1: spiral stairs, when every fire station in the world has
Speaker 1: spiral stairs, and the next to it is where the
Speaker 1: pole is. The reason why the stairs a spiral is
Speaker 1: because we used to fight fires with horses. The horses
Speaker 1: used to walk up the stairs and eat all the
Speaker 1: hay and then you be looking for the horse and
Speaker 1: he up that sleep, right, So they created the spiral
Speaker 1: stairs so the horse couldn't get up there. And the
Speaker 1: next two it was they had the pole for the
Speaker 1: hay loft right, So the hay is kept up in
Speaker 1: the third floor because typically that's the highest place, right,
Speaker 1: Hey needs to be dry, so you keep it up
Speaker 1: high in the third floor and hay lofts right. And
Speaker 1: then it was held in place with a pole. And
Speaker 1: then because we lazy humans, right when the horse needed Hey,
Speaker 1: you kicked the pole out the way and hey drops
Speaker 1: down now where you ain't got to go all the
Speaker 1: way up to the third floor. So it wasn't for
Speaker 1: for firemen sliding down it, not at all. It was
Speaker 1: just a letter. But you know who we don't talk
Speaker 1: about enough in Chicago is the captain that like the
Speaker 1: sad of his name is Captain Cooley Duan. He was
Speaker 1: a hero of the Chicago fire in eighteen seventy one.
Speaker 1: And when he's seen the black guys slid down that
Speaker 1: that hey, poll he's the guy that was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's genius, go ahead and send it, so y'all don't
Speaker 1: get splinters. And this is how we will respond from
Speaker 1: here on out. So, Dylan, I'm listening to you. And like,
Speaker 1: you know, Khalil and I are both you know, we
Speaker 1: both write books, we both do tons of research, we
Speaker 1: both write about Chicago like how do you get all
Speaker 1: this information? Like how were you? What kind of research
Speaker 1: do you do? And also like damn man, like you
Speaker 1: got this all off the dome's what's up? Like you
Speaker 1: remember all this jay Z ruined my life. So we'll
Speaker 1: start there. I remember that that famous interview he did
Speaker 1: where he was like, I don't write and it was
Speaker 1: like what and he was like, you know, I just
Speaker 1: say my rhymes and myself been ovan by the time
Speaker 1: I get back to the house, I don't need to
Speaker 1: write them down right there. It becomes an exercise. I
Speaker 1: went to Eastern Illinois University majoring in English and African
Speaker 1: American studies and probably wrote three papers because I would
Speaker 1: always say, let me give it to you orally. Right.
Speaker 1: So when when people read say like your book High Rises, right,
Speaker 1: like oh oh man, good look at them. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: jacked so much stuff out of that book, then better
Speaker 1: than that, I immediately want to read the stuff that
Speaker 1: you sourced from right right, you know, And though those
Speaker 1: are the cheats that I think people people forget about,
Speaker 1: right we want to run in Wikipedia and other online sources,
Speaker 1: A lot of that stuff ain't online, and that in
Speaker 1: that in that way, right you gotta like dog. So
Speaker 1: you're just you're reading all the time and going to
Speaker 1: the library and picking up books. I mean you're like
Speaker 1: just he's reading footnotes. Man, that's more than just reading.
Speaker 1: That's footnotes. Yeah. Yeah, I'm so happy I get to
Speaker 1: finally proclaim that I'm a nerd. Right, I don't gotta
Speaker 1: think like I like football anymore. For my friends and
Speaker 1: all that that was, I've had to live like this
Speaker 1: double life forever. Like I was way cooler than I was.
Speaker 1: So I would be sitting at the super Bowl while
Speaker 1: everybody's cheering, and I would be on my phone, like
Speaker 1: researching who Charles Whacker is, because all day long I've
Speaker 1: been trying to figure out why they call it Whacker drive. Right,
Speaker 1: So like researching is my pasttime, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like I allow an idea to formulate, or I fixate
Speaker 1: on something and then you know, I'm researching on that thing,
Speaker 1: and then out of that you get so many you know,
Speaker 1: bread chromes and those type of things. So that's just
Speaker 1: how I passed the time. You mentioned my book High Risers,
Speaker 1: which is about Cabrini Green, a public house and complex
Speaker 1: sens in Chicago, and I think I wrote it for
Speaker 1: a lot of the reasons you're talking about. What you
Speaker 1: do is that this was a place that was demonized
Speaker 1: because of its poverty and also violence. And you did
Speaker 1: a TikTok related to my book. Let's press the TikTok
Speaker 1: machine and listen to it. Pretty impossible to discuss the
Speaker 1: history of Cabrini Green in sixty seconds. I'm going to
Speaker 1: give it a try. And that the stories there were
Speaker 1: much more complex and many many lives that needed to
Speaker 1: be you know, and many stories that needed to be
Speaker 1: told that weren't being covered. But you did do a
Speaker 1: TikTok about Cabrini Green. And when you posted it and
Speaker 1: mentioned my book, you said I owed you a hot dog. Yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah right. I gotta believe the one I got the
Speaker 1: receipts because at least a dozen people, and I didn't
Speaker 1: just post your book. I said, buy this book. Man.
Speaker 1: That is great. We got to hear that clip. Despite it,
Speaker 1: all the residents of Cabrini Green had a great sense
Speaker 1: of community by this book. I think the TikTok with
Speaker 1: the first posting gay like maybe a hundred thirty thousand views.
Speaker 1: How much you're paying for a commercial for one hundred
Speaker 1: and thirty thousand people. So I'll get you a hot
Speaker 1: dog if you could, If you could tell us what
Speaker 1: is the history of the Chicago style hot dog? You know,
Speaker 1: no one knows that it's such a wives tale sort
Speaker 1: of thing, right, the no catchup. The best that I
Speaker 1: can find is that there are already so many ingredients
Speaker 1: on it that you don't you don't need to catch up, right,
Speaker 1: I tell you the ords like Italian beef. I love
Speaker 1: telling that story. Bring it, Come on with that story.
Speaker 1: So you know, two of the most iconic Chicago foods
Speaker 1: are the hot dog and then of course Italian beef
Speaker 1: because you know that deep dish pizza. I'm not really
Speaker 1: into that Italian beef comes from how we used to uh,
Speaker 1: Italian grannies give us Italian beefs. Right. The Italians were
Speaker 1: right the last arriving immigrants to Chicago at that moment,
Speaker 1: and when they used to walk into the butcher that
Speaker 1: was discriminated against. So you know, if you're a Yankee Protestant, right,
Speaker 1: they would sell you the surloin of the t bone.
Speaker 1: But you were a darker, complexted Irish lady, I mean
Speaker 1: Italian lady. You had to buy the run rows. Right,
Speaker 1: that's what they would sell to you, the chitlands of
Speaker 1: the cow. Right. And that's not a very tender cut
Speaker 1: of meat. Yeah, that's not a great advertisement for Italian beef.
Speaker 1: It's not at all, right, But this is what but see,
Speaker 1: that's the beauty about Chicago. Out of discrimination comes amazing shit. Right.
Speaker 1: Because she was discriminated in the butchers. What did she do?
Speaker 1: She's like, Okay, I ain't gona worry about it. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna put it in its slow cooker and when my
Speaker 1: husband leaves out for work, I'll turn it on, and
Speaker 1: by the time he gets from work, I'll turn it off.
Speaker 1: And anything you cooked for eight hours is going to
Speaker 1: be the most tender thing. Right. And what's the cheat?
Speaker 1: The cheat is the bread. And it don't take anything,
Speaker 1: especially if you're making homemade bread. Right, little flower, little doe,
Speaker 1: little whatever, right, you make amazing bread. She took that
Speaker 1: then eight hour cut roast the rump rights and thinly
Speaker 1: sliced it and fair The kids say a little bit
Speaker 1: for his lunch, right, And then every day more and
Speaker 1: more people are like, throw they lunch away and start
Speaker 1: asking Broth for some of his sandwiches because they was
Speaker 1: really really juicy and tender because they cooked all day,
Speaker 1: and he started selling it so many of his lunch sandwiches.
Speaker 1: He quit his job and you know ours beef right,
Speaker 1: Like damn, man, if you got to be careful asking
Speaker 1: you a question, it is like it opens one door
Speaker 1: and then another and then another. You just like, go ahead, Khalil, Well,
Speaker 1: I'm curious. So do you have any inspirations, role models,
Speaker 1: people who you have now begun to model yourself now
Speaker 1: that you've become basically the most famous Chicago historian. I mean,
Speaker 1: at this point you own that title. Thank you. Send
Speaker 1: this clip to the city so that they can make
Speaker 1: me the official culture historian. I'm definitely chasing the legacy
Speaker 1: of Tamil Black. There would go, yeah, wow, Tamil Black.
Speaker 1: Let me just say so. He died one year ago
Speaker 1: at age one hundred and two, and he was i'd say,
Speaker 1: Chicago's greatest historian and lived Chicago history, you know, moving
Speaker 1: here from the South, being a civil rights leader, schooling
Speaker 1: Barack Obama. You know, you are living his legacy. Tell
Speaker 1: us more about him. He moved to Chicago a couple
Speaker 1: of months after the race riot in nineteen nineteen. He
Speaker 1: was an infant. He's a gentleman that invited doctor King
Speaker 1: speaked in Chicago for the first time, right because he
Speaker 1: was already a civil rights activist, right, Yeah, absolutely, He's
Speaker 1: a World War Two veteran. He was at DuSable with
Speaker 1: Red Fox, nattem Co, Dinah Washington, Harold Washable as a
Speaker 1: high school here on the South Side, second Black High School,
Speaker 1: second high school constructive for African Americans in the city's
Speaker 1: history on the South Side. Man, I love all that
Speaker 1: I love. Tamil Black is amazing. I had the great
Speaker 1: honor of interviewing him a couple of times. You know,
Speaker 1: he is a Chicago booster, and you know, so are you.
Speaker 1: And I want to talk more about this idea of
Speaker 1: what it means to be so positive about a city,
Speaker 1: so positive about Chicago, because this is something this is
Speaker 1: something I actually think about all the time, Della and Khalil,
Speaker 1: you don't only think about it, You really obsess over
Speaker 1: this question because so much of your work is about
Speaker 1: pushing back against stereotypes. I'm talking to you Ben about
Speaker 1: like the crime and the violence and all of that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And at the same time, right, so I'm writing about
Speaker 1: criminal justice issues. I'm writing about poverty and segregation in Chicago.
Speaker 1: I'm writing about what the reality of Chicago. And it's
Speaker 1: also like we're getting all these messages about Chicago which
Speaker 1: are or extreme, you know, whether it's like this hell
Speaker 1: hole or whether it's you know, when that movie came out,
Speaker 1: you were so pissed. Those are just abstractions. It's like
Speaker 1: just just the worst stuff exists in isolation without anything else.
Speaker 1: But the bad stuff really is there too, like and
Speaker 1: so so the struggle is like to address these real
Speaker 1: issues because it's important to grapple with them, to wrestle
Speaker 1: with them, because otherwise we can't we can't change them.
Speaker 1: How do we do both? The example I use when
Speaker 1: I get asked this particular type of question, I really
Speaker 1: feel like I'm preaching to the quiet, especially talking to you, brother,
Speaker 1: being is like, my daughter has asthma. We probably on
Speaker 1: our way to like go get a breathing treatment tomorrow,
Speaker 1: the way that her asthma is going to date right,
Speaker 1: thank you, brother. So I understand wanting to deal with
Speaker 1: the symptoms that are in front of me right now,
Speaker 1: right when she gets the coffin, she has a running nose.
Speaker 1: I want to give her a hause I wanted to
Speaker 1: blow a nose. I want to get to dehumidified in
Speaker 1: her room. Right, But you know, if that's all I
Speaker 1: ever do each time she gets sick, she's gonna keep
Speaker 1: getting sick every now and again. I got to go
Speaker 1: into basement and check the filters, right, I gotta see
Speaker 1: what's blowing through this house that's making her sick. Beyond that, right,
Speaker 1: I might have to get a plumber in because her
Speaker 1: room is by the bathroom to check the wet wall
Speaker 1: and see, right, if there's mold behind the walls that
Speaker 1: we can't see. What's my long winded point when we
Speaker 1: talk about the people that got shot and the people
Speaker 1: that got killed, I'm I hate that they got killed.
Speaker 1: I hate that they got shot. I think that that
Speaker 1: needs attention. But like that's where the stat starts and stops, right,
Speaker 1: And we don't mention that the three people that got
Speaker 1: killed are involved in the STL versus Old Block war
Speaker 1: that started because rom Emmanuel closed fifty schools and so
Speaker 1: three kids had to cross Kane Drive where formerly those
Speaker 1: kids never cross Kane Drive to go to school. Then
Speaker 1: one of them got you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: spell that shit all the way out right and then
Speaker 1: talk about how it always always always goes back to
Speaker 1: some kind of systemic bullshit. You know what, Ian we
Speaker 1: usually cart racism. I like, it's just systemic bullshit. Better
Speaker 1: that is from the heroin out been rest of the
Speaker 1: season is just systemic bullshit. We are back on. Some
Speaker 1: of my best friends are with Sherman Dylah Thomas. It
Speaker 1: seems to me what you're saying is that the structural
Speaker 1: bullshit has to be addressed also by how people see
Speaker 1: themselves there in the history of the place they live in,
Speaker 1: that that all these stories you're telling are a way
Speaker 1: of empowering young people, especially that you should have pride
Speaker 1: of place, that a lot of people did a lot
Speaker 1: of wonderful things here and people have been fighting for
Speaker 1: justice here. You don't have to do this alone. You
Speaker 1: have this this inspiration and I'm going to tell you
Speaker 1: these stories and guess what, it's not just a couple
Speaker 1: of stories, and it's not just Black History month, man,
Speaker 1: It is fucking TikTok. Every day. I get that right,
Speaker 1: every day. You know, they got these kids to go
Speaker 1: to Irvin Mollison Elementary which is on forty fifth and
Speaker 1: King Drive on the South side of Chicago. Whenever I
Speaker 1: come across the kid to go to Mollison. I asked
Speaker 1: them who is Irvin Mollison. They can never tell me.
Speaker 1: But then I say, have you ever read A Raisin
Speaker 1: in the Sun, right, And they say, oh, yeah, right
Speaker 1: with Lorraine Hansbury. Okay, Well, it was Earl Dickerson and
Speaker 1: Irvin Mollison that were his lawyers that took that case
Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court that opened up Woodline right that
Speaker 1: it allowed for that eventually Emmett Till's mom and everybody
Speaker 1: else starts to move into into Woodline. It's because of
Speaker 1: Irvin Mollison, Earl B. Dickerson. Wow, there's so much history
Speaker 1: you've packed in there. I mean, this is why you're
Speaker 1: so amazing. You know, everyone, including my own kids, have
Speaker 1: read Lorraine Hansberry's classic work, A Raising in the Sun.
Speaker 1: And if people haven't read it, they might have seen
Speaker 1: the movie starring Sydney Portier. And to know that the
Speaker 1: people who were responsible for helping that black family, her
Speaker 1: black family move into Woodlawn and to help alterantly to
Speaker 1: bring down restrictive covenants. One of the main ways in
Speaker 1: which black people were segregated all across the country, including
Speaker 1: places like Chicago. That's a lot of important history you're
Speaker 1: talking about. Man, Why aren't the people that go You
Speaker 1: should as soon as you walk into Irban Moleson, it
Speaker 1: should be a sign. You should have to read it
Speaker 1: every day to graduate kindergarten. Then you should have to
Speaker 1: recite it by heart to graduate out of eighth grade, right,
Speaker 1: and then then you know what I mean. But yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's and it's kind of crazy and insane that
Speaker 1: kids who go to Mollison Elementary don't know that history,
Speaker 1: don't know the story of that civil rights struggle, that's
Speaker 1: their history. And so your tiktoks are both addressing things
Speaker 1: that we should feel pride and and but there they
Speaker 1: are addressing these systemic bullshit problems. Yeah, for sure. Right,
Speaker 1: if you're traveling anywhere in the world, you're gonna walk
Speaker 1: back somebody with cubs had or a sock's head or
Speaker 1: a bear's head, and then y'all gonna make this ad
Speaker 1: contact with each other, right and give each other that head. Nine.
Speaker 1: It don't matter what ethnicity they are. If y'all out
Speaker 1: of town, y'all both from Chicago, it's gonna be an acknowledgement, right,
Speaker 1: TikTok allows for that to happen. I don't see the
Speaker 1: head not back, right, but when they when they get
Speaker 1: the video and they see me, they were able to
Speaker 1: give that Chicago head nod. But it also sounds like
Speaker 1: you have a huge audience outside of Chicago. And if
Speaker 1: that's true, what do you think appeals to people who
Speaker 1: are not actually Chicagoans? I think think the truth, Right,
Speaker 1: there's a natural Chicago curiosity, La curiosity, New York curiosity,
Speaker 1: and hearing bullcrap sometimes sounds like bullcrap and so and
Speaker 1: when you mean bullcrap of like vilifying the city, of
Speaker 1: saying the city is a war zone, of saying that
Speaker 1: it's all like did you if you go in there,
Speaker 1: you're gonna get shot? Like it's it's dangerous everywhere you go. Yep,
Speaker 1: absolutely well. Last year, right, I announced that we want
Speaker 1: best dig City for five years running about Kande Nassis
Speaker 1: Reader's choice. It's a national platform, right, Yes, Chicagoans ain't
Speaker 1: sitting around feeling out to that survey. Right, people coming
Speaker 1: to Chicago's filing out that survey. And it's true, We're
Speaker 1: an amazing city. I believe it was Northwestern that did
Speaker 1: a study that said it was like really really telling
Speaker 1: to it, like ninety two percent of all people who
Speaker 1: get shot in Chicago had a ninety five percent probability
Speaker 1: of getting shot in Chicago based off of the lifestyle
Speaker 1: that they were living, right, And so what that makes
Speaker 1: me want to talk about is the other two point
Speaker 1: five million of us who are outside of that number,
Speaker 1: who day by day don't get shot, right, who the
Speaker 1: probability says we aren't going to get shot because of
Speaker 1: the amazing things, but just the culture and the sustainability
Speaker 1: of our city. Global warming is real, the same way
Speaker 1: that everybody's beating up on Chicago. Now, in fifty years,
Speaker 1: we're going to be right back over crowded just because
Speaker 1: of Lake Michigan. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I'm still struggling
Speaker 1: with this idea of what it means to be a
Speaker 1: booster for a place. And I actually follow you because
Speaker 1: it gives me, it makes me feel good about my home,
Speaker 1: and I'm hearing things I want to hear. And I'm
Speaker 1: also walking the streets on the South Side, and you know,
Speaker 1: a car suddenly zooms up and the first thought that's
Speaker 1: in my head is like, there's about to be a
Speaker 1: jacking because has actually been like two or three on
Speaker 1: the block, like not like imaginary stuff, real stuff. And
Speaker 1: when there's a shooting at the school two blocks for me,
Speaker 1: where parents are pulling their kids out and I've got
Speaker 1: neighbors who want to move, Like, it's not just that
Speaker 1: five percent that got shot, it's also like all the
Speaker 1: residual effects of all this stuff, which is real, as
Speaker 1: you know. And like what you're really talking about his fear,
Speaker 1: this fear, a sense of like how do you even
Speaker 1: rationally deal with danger? I mean, you were talking about
Speaker 1: your father being on the Chicago Police Department for thirty
Speaker 1: years and you obviously you saw a lot firsthand, and
Speaker 1: you feel great pride in what he did, Like even personally,
Speaker 1: how do you tell his story and celebrate what he
Speaker 1: did and also tell the story of abusive policing that's
Speaker 1: also part of the story of Chicago. You just tell it.
Speaker 1: You know, it's going to have a little bias in
Speaker 1: it because I'm a Chicago and right my perspective is black,
Speaker 1: So maybe I'm slightly rooting for the black guy in
Speaker 1: the story a little more. What do you imagine? I
Speaker 1: try to just have a very objective perspective about the
Speaker 1: stories that I'm telling. And I think because of the
Speaker 1: intersectionalities of my life, it makes it makes me uniquely
Speaker 1: able to do it right, you know. Can you give
Speaker 1: an example? Yeah? Absolutely. There was nothing better for me
Speaker 1: than to just watch. He taught me how to tie
Speaker 1: a tie at four and so I would tie his
Speaker 1: ties when he put in his uniform on and I
Speaker 1: was standing there and wait to hand it to him,
Speaker 1: so he just pull it around his neck. And just
Speaker 1: seeing him put that badge on, right, seeing him put
Speaker 1: his gun in his host that it gave me a
Speaker 1: He was a superhero to you. Your father was a
Speaker 1: superhero to you, and just not just he made police
Speaker 1: superheroes to me, right, And then it could be hours later.
Speaker 1: I'm at the rink on eighty seven Street on the
Speaker 1: South Side with my friends and the cop and say
Speaker 1: hey move and I don't move fast enough, and I
Speaker 1: got a nab miller meet at my head. Right. It
Speaker 1: didn't even get enough time to register your acts and
Speaker 1: me to walk away. Man, that's crazy. So a cop
Speaker 1: put a gun to your head. What and you're you're
Speaker 1: not saying a hypothetical, You're talking about something. This is
Speaker 1: one thousand percent what happened to me. This is a
Speaker 1: thousand percent what happened to me. I was chilling. I
Speaker 1: just got my license. This is not a hypothetical, right,
Speaker 1: Like I did all the time, handed him his tie
Speaker 1: to go to work and you know, to have a
Speaker 1: great day dad. And it still felt that pride that
Speaker 1: I had been filling my whole life. And so both
Speaker 1: of those are true at the same time, at the
Speaker 1: same time. Man, And it's it's those It's so many
Speaker 1: stories I come across from all the time. I'm only
Speaker 1: emphasizing how incredible this brother's storytelling is. I mean he is.
Speaker 1: He is telling stories that people ought to know. This
Speaker 1: isn't just a Chicago story. These are national stories. That's
Speaker 1: the other thing about messaging. And I think that's our
Speaker 1: problem as a city, right, you know, the people who
Speaker 1: work in city hall, right or whoever does our advertising
Speaker 1: I'm messaging stinks. This is the worst. Right. So one
Speaker 1: last question, Della, one last question for you. You're celebrating
Speaker 1: all these amazing Chicago things. Everything dope comes from Chicago.
Speaker 1: So Khalil and I are from Chicago. Yeah, man, we
Speaker 1: want to be celebrated, right, Like you know, when you
Speaker 1: do the TikTok about us, we're making history. A white
Speaker 1: guy and a black guy getting together. You know, he
Speaker 1: broke the color line of podcasts. You know, when you
Speaker 1: do the TikTok about us, what's the hook gonna be?
Speaker 1: Let's see who I'm gonna compare you guys too. I
Speaker 1: think I will make the comparisons. You'll be Julius Rosenwall, right,
Speaker 1: Sears the founder of Sears Roebuck Company. So he's the
Speaker 1: reason why you know what Sears and Roebuck Company is today.
Speaker 1: When he took over as president, they were at about
Speaker 1: two hundred thousand a year, and when he left to
Speaker 1: pursue philanthropy BA totally, they were like a two hundred
Speaker 1: million a year, and this is nineteen twenties money, all right.
Speaker 1: So not the founder, he just built the company into something,
Speaker 1: built the company out right. He's also he created two
Speaker 1: thousand high schools in the South. John Lewis graduated from
Speaker 1: a Rosenwater school. To name the Google as soon as
Speaker 1: you hear this podcast right now, Julius Rosenwall, that's a lot, man.
Speaker 1: So I'm like, damn, well, what's left so that that
Speaker 1: would be being and then I think you, brother Muhammed,
Speaker 1: you'd be Carter G. Woodson. Man. You know, such grad school,
Speaker 1: the University of Chicago, holding shop at the wabash Y MCA,
Speaker 1: which is on the south side of which is the
Speaker 1: birthplace a Black History Month, all of the lectures. Right,
Speaker 1: he personally, you know, schooled so many people. He got
Speaker 1: Archibald Motley to to continue to paint, right, that's right,
Speaker 1: one of the Renaissance painters. He was. He was in
Speaker 1: Chicago at such a pivotal time teaching organizational skills and
Speaker 1: then eventually right they found the Chicago urban Ly they
Speaker 1: get the Chicago branch of the NAACP. But it's a
Speaker 1: lot to do with people who were as students of
Speaker 1: him while he was a student, right you know, so
Speaker 1: that that that that'd be YouTube, got it? Got it?
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. So Ben, Ben's the philanthropist. So Ben,
Speaker 1: I need some money, man, I need and you to
Speaker 1: fund my next research project. You know, when this serious
Speaker 1: thing blows up, I got you. I just need this.
Speaker 1: I just need this serious thing to blow out. Way.
Speaker 1: You are doing so much, not just for Chicago, but
Speaker 1: for lifting up the stories of our past that we
Speaker 1: need to know the good, the bad, the ugly. You're
Speaker 1: reminding us that for some of us, we come from greatness,
Speaker 1: meaning that you know, people have sacrificed on our behalf
Speaker 1: to pave the way for others. And I just so
Speaker 1: appreciate how much you are doing in that city and
Speaker 1: for your community, and especially for those beautiful daughters of
Speaker 1: yours and listen, and you're also you're also showing a
Speaker 1: love for learning, which is infectious, and you know we're
Speaker 1: feeling it, and I think you know everyone else who
Speaker 1: is listening to you is as well. Thank you, all right,
Speaker 1: thank you very much. I was humbled when I got
Speaker 1: the request. I really, I really am. I appreciate both
Speaker 1: of you guys in the work that you're doing, the
Speaker 1: legacy you both carries. Like I say, I still think
Speaker 1: being sort of host, being a high dog, he said,
Speaker 1: at least ten books, I definitely do. Now now now,
Speaker 1: after this show, one hundred percent or you're a hot dog.
Speaker 1: Thank you guys. Hey man, you're now one of our
Speaker 1: best friends, so I hope you'll you'll come back and
Speaker 1: join us at some point again. All right, man, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you. Khalil talking Adela, it's like those Russian nesting dolls.
Speaker 1: You know, you open one and there's one bit of history,
Speaker 1: and then like you find out that story has eleven
Speaker 1: other stories inside of it. Yeah, well that's I think
Speaker 1: that's part of the beauty of studying a place, is
Speaker 1: that in real time, histories are complicated. Places are complicated,
Speaker 1: and the people who make our lives meaningful to us
Speaker 1: are also complicated. And yeah, and I think that's what
Speaker 1: we want to impart even in this conversation that we
Speaker 1: have every week, thank god, And just like even thinking
Speaker 1: now that he has committed all of this to memory,
Speaker 1: you know that this is all sort of in his
Speaker 1: head and he's telling these different histories. It's like it's
Speaker 1: so incredibly impressive and powerful. It's impressive and powerful, but
Speaker 1: it also speaks to a bigger moment in time. I mean,
Speaker 1: in an age of misinformation, he's still fact checking and
Speaker 1: doing research. He's still looking at books, he's still going
Speaker 1: to the library. And I know, for me, it's really
Speaker 1: important that people take facts seriously. And I think he's
Speaker 1: modeling for everybody, even in the age of misinformation and
Speaker 1: social media, how important it is to be grounded in
Speaker 1: facts and evidence and to really see history as as
Speaker 1: a source of empowerment for everyone. That's a great point
Speaker 1: that even though this is essentially online and that even
Speaker 1: if it's oral, that it is based in in fact,
Speaker 1: and you're saying that, like want to I want to
Speaker 1: ask you this, like, does the way that Dilla sees
Speaker 1: the positive in a history and raises the positive above
Speaker 1: all else, does it change at all how you think
Speaker 1: you want to tell history. No, it doesn't, meaning that
Speaker 1: I don't see my histories as as negative. I see
Speaker 1: them as essential. And to Dylla's credit, I think some
Speaker 1: of the stories that he's telling on TikTok is also
Speaker 1: about the lives of people who have been killed in
Speaker 1: gang violence or random by standard violence, and I think
Speaker 1: giving those people a history of their own personal lives,
Speaker 1: a biography, a story of who they are, is not
Speaker 1: necessarily an uplifting story, but it is a story that
Speaker 1: is important to give more dimension to the context of
Speaker 1: people's lives. Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I'm
Speaker 1: like that as well, that I sort of get lost
Speaker 1: in the complexity of things. And you know, he talks
Speaker 1: about the structural bullshit, you know, to tell those stories,
Speaker 1: but to also show that their effects are not the
Speaker 1: totality of experience. I almost come to this same point,
Speaker 1: but from the opposite side, you know, and meet him
Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle. I'm certainly like moved by him,
Speaker 1: Like I really, I really do listen to him because
Speaker 1: it makes me. It makes me feel better about my home. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And look, not for nothing the fact that he's telling
Speaker 1: these stories, which many of which are uncovered and unheard
Speaker 1: of or buried in a book somewhere. This is not
Speaker 1: just the story of how the first skyscraper in Chicago
Speaker 1: was built. That's important. He's adding so much more context
Speaker 1: to a very complicated city and we all should be
Speaker 1: grateful for that. And I'm grateful that he is now
Speaker 1: going to include us in that history so well. Khalil
Speaker 1: love you, Yeah, man, I love you too, And I'm
Speaker 1: grateful for you, all right, I'm grateful for you. Some
Speaker 1: of My Best Friends Are is a production of Pushkin Industries.
Speaker 1: The show is written and hosted by me Khalil, Gibron Mohammed,
Speaker 1: and my best friend Ben Austin. It's produced by John
Speaker 1: Asante and Lucy Sullivan. Our editor is Jasmine Morris, our
Speaker 1: engineer is Amanda Kwan, and our executive producer is Mia
Speaker 1: LaBelle at Pushkin thanks to Leta Mulad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine,
Speaker 1: Carl Migliori, John Schnars, Retta Kone, and Jacob Weisberg. Our
Speaker 1: theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow Chicagoan the brilliant
Speaker 1: Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman. You definitely want
Speaker 1: to check out his music at his website Avery R.
Speaker 1: Young dot com. You can find Pushkin on all social
Speaker 1: platforms at pushkin pods and you can sign up for
Speaker 1: our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts,
Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: like to listen. And if you like our show, please
Speaker 1: give us a five star rating and a review and listen.
Speaker 1: Even if you don't like it, give it a five
Speaker 1: star rating and a review, and please tell all of
Speaker 1: your best friends about it. Thank you and listen. Also,
Speaker 1: Odilla a hot dog, you know, for for being on
Speaker 1: the show, and just because I want to. I want
Speaker 1: to tell him how much I appreciate him, and you know,
Speaker 1: in the same way that he shouted out my book,
Speaker 1: I want to give him a shout out that everyone
Speaker 1: should go and follow him. You know. On Instagram, on
Speaker 1: Twitter TikTok his handle is six figure Underscore Villa at
Speaker 1: six figg a underscore d I L LA. It's music
Speaker 1: even to say six figure dilla