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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, it's Jacob Goldstein. We'll be back soon with

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Speaker 1: a new episode of What's Your Problem, But in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: I want to play you an episode of another Pushkin show.

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Speaker 1: This show is called some of My Best Friends Are

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Speaker 1: And this episode we're gonna play is an interview with

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Speaker 1: a guy who talks about the relief he felt when

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Speaker 1: he stopped pretending he was cool and admitted to the

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Speaker 1: world that he was a nerd. So of course that

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Speaker 1: immediately endeared him to me. Also in the show is

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Speaker 1: the truly surprising origin of the Fireman's poll. Here's the show.

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy I get to finally proclaim that I'm

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Speaker 1: a nerd. Right, I don't gotta fake like I like

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Speaker 1: football anymore. For my friends and all that that was,

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Speaker 1: I've had to live like this double life forever, like

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Speaker 1: I was cooler than I was. So I will be

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Speaker 1: sitting at the super Bowl while everybody's sharing, and I

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Speaker 1: would be on my phone length researcher who Charles Whacker is?

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Speaker 1: Because all day long I've been trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: why they call it Whacker Drive. Right, I'm Khalil Jibrad Muhammad,

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Speaker 1: and I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black,

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Speaker 1: one white. I'm a historian and I'm a journalist, and

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Speaker 1: this is some of my best friends are. Some of

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Speaker 1: my best friends are dot dot dot. In this show,

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Speaker 1: we wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities of a

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Speaker 1: deeply divided and unequal country. And this week the nation's

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Speaker 1: leading urban historian on TikTok is joining us. Sherman Gilla

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Speaker 1: Thomas joins our conversation. His tagline is Everything Dope comes

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Speaker 1: from Chicago. We talk about what it means to be

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Speaker 1: a booster for our hometown, a complicated place with a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of history, not only the whole I am

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Speaker 1: really excited this week about the conversation we're going to

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Speaker 1: have with Sherman Dilla Thomas. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: You and I are constantly talking about this balance between

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Speaker 1: like like stories of tragedy and challenge and also like

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Speaker 1: how do we celebrate the good things that are happening? Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is so central to everything we do and like

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Speaker 1: even even probably how we live of like you know,

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Speaker 1: delving into the really complicated histories of place. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: have to live with having written a book condemnation of blackness,

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Speaker 1: which people are like, oh, that sounds that sounds really positive.

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Speaker 1: It's not the celebration of blackness, but in many ways,

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Speaker 1: like you need both, right, Yeah, I mean so even

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Speaker 1: in thinking about this of you know, what it means

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Speaker 1: to celebrate a place, what it means to be a booster.

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Speaker 1: Something is gained and also something is lost. But here

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Speaker 1: we have this guy on the show, Sherman Dilla Thomas,

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Speaker 1: who might be one of the most positive people about

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Speaker 1: Chicago I've ever come across in my entire life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you met him. I don't even know

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Speaker 1: how how did you meet this guy? Man? I started

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Speaker 1: seeing his video is all over the place, you know,

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Speaker 1: and here he is like wearing white Sox gear or

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Speaker 1: Bulls gear. He's like holding his microphone to his mouth,

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Speaker 1: and he is just like spitting knowledge about Chicago. Like

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Speaker 1: the first black NFL quarterback Hall of Famer coming from Chicago.

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Speaker 1: Did I get that right? Yeah? Fritz Pollard. Fritz Pollard,

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Speaker 1: you know. And he actually reached out to me because

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Speaker 1: he did an episode about Cabrini Green and I wrote

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Speaker 1: this book High Riser was about Cabrini Green, and so

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Speaker 1: we met that way, and you know, he did this

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Speaker 1: whole episode about public housing in Chicago. Yeah, and just

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Speaker 1: like I've seen these in learning so much from them

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Speaker 1: and then they blew up. They're all over the place.

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Speaker 1: They're viral. I mean, he has reportedly over four million

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Speaker 1: views counting just from last year. I mean, who knows

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Speaker 1: how many more now. And he's also started a bus

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Speaker 1: company to take people on actual tours of the city,

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Speaker 1: Mahogany Tours. This is a really incredible use of history, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, so you're a historian, and this is history

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Speaker 1: that is somehow being lived and experienced outside of books.

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Speaker 1: Even it's traveling all over the place, and he's he's

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Speaker 1: on the news here, he's on television. He becomes a

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Speaker 1: kind of ambassador for Chicago. Yeah. Man, I'm really excited

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Speaker 1: to get to know this guy too, because as a historian,

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Speaker 1: it's not often the case that one I learned things

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Speaker 1: I didn't know about my own city, and two that

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Speaker 1: you get to use history in a way that is

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Speaker 1: empowering to people who live in a city to think

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Speaker 1: about their connection to folks who've come before them and

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Speaker 1: use that as a kind of inspiration to say, hey,

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Speaker 1: you know, I should be proud walking these streets because

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Speaker 1: other people have done amazing things who've come before me. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and for me, I want to know, like, can you

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Speaker 1: both extol a place and also tell about its really complicated,

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Speaker 1: difficult parts at the same time. So let's hear from Dillah.

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Speaker 1: Let's go talk to him, all right, Sherman Dillah Thomas,

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Speaker 1: welcome to some of my best friends are Yeah, thank you,

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Speaker 1: thank you, brother Ben for having me. Brother Muhammad truly

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Speaker 1: island to be here. Oh man Man, I mean you.

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Speaker 1: We're Chicagoans and we're Southsiders, and you are Chicago's favorite

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Speaker 1: urban historian. That's right, the man, the myth legend. We

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Speaker 1: are super excited about this, and this is the first

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Speaker 1: time in the history of some of my best friends

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Speaker 1: are we have both been referred to as brother I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm used to Brother Muhammad. I mean that, you know

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Speaker 1: that kind of goes with the territory, but we didn't

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Speaker 1: get a twofer until now. We're so excited to talk

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Speaker 1: with you. You are the TikTok history lessons King. It's

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Speaker 1: amazing what you're doing. Before we get to that, though,

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Speaker 1: you go by the name Dealer, right, what's that about

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Speaker 1: My mother was calling me Shern dealer like d E

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Speaker 1: A L E R. Got it. She used to say

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Speaker 1: that I reminded her of the used car dealers on

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Speaker 1: Western I could I could get her to buy any

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Speaker 1: any jump ever, and we all knew better Western Avenues,

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Speaker 1: the street in Chicago where as soon as you get

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Speaker 1: fifteen hundred dollars as of kids, you go there to

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Speaker 1: buy your used car, it's gonna break as soon as

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Speaker 1: you get home. Everybody's car does. But we do it anyway.

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Speaker 1: And so that was that like her thing for me,

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Speaker 1: and the kids heard Churm dealer and just start calling

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Speaker 1: me diala right, you know. So that's so that's where

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Speaker 1: that comes from, Della. I love it. So I know

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Speaker 1: Ben knows you a little better than I do. So

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Speaker 1: when did you get started, Della? And and I know

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Speaker 1: your your daughter was inspiration, but just for my purposes,

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Speaker 1: tell me, tell me exactly when you got started. I

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Speaker 1: got started right out of November of twenty twenty. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we were all in the house. Yeah, and then stuck

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Speaker 1: in the house with the pandemic. You know, we're all

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Speaker 1: on lockdown, and my daughter wanted to do TikTok's and

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Speaker 1: the family told her, no, what's up, that's me was eight, right,

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Speaker 1: and they thought that eight was a little too young

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Speaker 1: to be on an app by yourself. So I later

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Speaker 1: like just downloaded on my phone and you know, and

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Speaker 1: anybody looking tiktokular heart out right and um and then

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Speaker 1: but also I kind of figured I'd be a good

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Speaker 1: way for me to just see what she's engaging in, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, And so we did that. First she wanted

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Speaker 1: to watch, then she wanted to dance, and because you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not the best dancer, we were doing like those

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Speaker 1: little Daddy Daughter challenges. Of course I did one myself,

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Speaker 1: the same thing covid times little Little Daddy Daughter Mix

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Speaker 1: mixtape on TikTok Yeah, you know, just bonding with the kids.

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Speaker 1: And what happened was we did wanted her friend is

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Speaker 1: the same one, and her friend got like two thousand

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Speaker 1: views and we got like sixty. You suck. This is

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Speaker 1: all yourn so mad, like oh not just that, but

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Speaker 1: like she she took like a self esteem wall, like

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Speaker 1: why why her over me? And do so many things right?

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Speaker 1: So I was like, you know, I know Chicago history, baby,

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Speaker 1: let me let me feed you some lines that has

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Speaker 1: to be the corniest intervention I've ever heard in my life.

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Speaker 1: Let me do history on your TikTok. That is gonna

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Speaker 1: blow your spot up, baby. I think the first one

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Speaker 1: I did was like maybe telling how Chicago created the

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Speaker 1: times for the country. Okay, we gotta hear that. Let's

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Speaker 1: play that clip. You ever wonder why California's two hours

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Speaker 1: behind Chicago or New York to an hour ahead. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's because right here in Chicago we set up the

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Speaker 1: time zones for the country. And it got more views

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Speaker 1: than the land than what her and I did. And

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Speaker 1: then so she said, do another one and let me

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Speaker 1: stand next to you. Right, you just wanted to stand there,

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Speaker 1: and then we did, and then that one get views,

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Speaker 1: and then you just started rolling. I just started rolling.

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Speaker 1: You know, have you always been a history buff? Did

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Speaker 1: you always study history? Yeah, that's what I was thinking, Ben,

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Speaker 1: good question. I was thinking the exact same thing. I've

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Speaker 1: always been a history buff. I didn't study history. My

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Speaker 1: dad was a Chicago policeman for thirty two years and

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Speaker 1: he got hired on October nineteen sixty nine. So that's

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Speaker 1: the pedigree I come from. And you know, they talk

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Speaker 1: history in square cards. They talk history amongst each other,

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Speaker 1: and then they took their kids to work with them. Right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask you one question though about about your

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Speaker 1: dad and going and going to work with him, because

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Speaker 1: I never really thought about a kid going to work

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Speaker 1: with their father who's a police officer. I used to

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Speaker 1: go to work with my pops, who was a photojournalist

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Speaker 1: for a newspaper. But I was just loading cameras. Were

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Speaker 1: you putting like little bullets in the revolver to make

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Speaker 1: sure Pops was all ready to go, locked and loaded? No,

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Speaker 1: I'm not quite you know, really, just sit down, shut

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Speaker 1: up and listen. Just a lot of that was this

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Speaker 1: security detail, because I know part of what it's in

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Speaker 1: your bio is pretty spectacular. Just that your father actually

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Speaker 1: worked as security detail with Harold Washington, right, who was

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Speaker 1: Chicago's first black mayor, elected in nineteen eighty three. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he worked at security detail. He worked here, mostly used detail.

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Speaker 1: He worked about Russia's detail. You know that. That's what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying. That particular time frame, right as black politicians

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Speaker 1: are making this you know, surge, they are picking their

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Speaker 1: own to protect them. Chicago was unique that it had

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Speaker 1: started off as an Afro American Patrolman's League. Now they

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Speaker 1: called the African American Police League, but it was like

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Speaker 1: a union inside of the Union's the reason why they're

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Speaker 1: black sergeants is the reason why they're black firefighters. Right.

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Speaker 1: They sued the city and got that famous injunction to

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Speaker 1: change the entry exams for both the fire and police department,

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Speaker 1: as was as the sergeant exams. Right, you're giving us

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Speaker 1: a TikTok history lesson about the afroma. That's just like

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Speaker 1: it's coming out of your pores. It started off as

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Speaker 1: an Afro American Patrolman's League, and what it was it

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Speaker 1: was started by Renault Robinson Howard Saffo, And what it

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Speaker 1: was was, I'll give you an example, Right, a white

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Speaker 1: cop could wear across to work because it's considered a

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Speaker 1: religious symbol. And during the nineteen sixties, the black power

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Speaker 1: movement was coming into effect, right, going into the nineteen seventies. Right,

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Speaker 1: we're Afros, we were proud, and so black officers would

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Speaker 1: want to wear an arc, which is also considered a

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Speaker 1: religious signal, especially Egyptian religious comedic religions. Right, but medic

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Speaker 1: meaning Egyptian related, Right, I mean it's it's spelled on

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Speaker 1: a n k H. It's a type of cross that

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Speaker 1: we would wear like a necklace, right, meaning Egyptian related. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and black officers would get suspended for wearing their aunts,

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Speaker 1: but white officers would not get suspended for wearing their crosses. Right. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And so those are the things that activated the AFRO

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Speaker 1: founded as the Afro American Police League to fight back.

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Speaker 1: Like I said, you could see your brother being harassed

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Speaker 1: by white cops. You're a cop, your brother in blue,

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Speaker 1: your not your brother, you're your blood brother, and so

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Speaker 1: um you could see your bin. You can see your

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Speaker 1: brother getting harassed. You're black, dude. You see your brother

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Speaker 1: getting harrassed back cops. You pull up, Hey, guys, I'm

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Speaker 1: a cop. Show your badge. Right. That cop would get

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Speaker 1: suspended all the time for interfering with police issues, right,

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Speaker 1: the black cop who was interceding on behalf of somebody

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Speaker 1: being harassed by a white cop all the time. So

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Speaker 1: that's what started it. That's what that league was founded for. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's an amazing than even telling that story because of

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Speaker 1: celebrating this organization and the leaders and even the work

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Speaker 1: that your father did working in it, and the very

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Speaker 1: reason for its founding is that cops needed to fight

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Speaker 1: racism and oppression and corruption within their own ranks. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to just say, just as a matter of like

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Speaker 1: political history. You mentioned Senator Carol Moseley Braun, who is

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Speaker 1: the first black female senator in the history of the nation,

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Speaker 1: and she's only the second black senator at any point

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Speaker 1: after the reconstruction period. And here's a clip of Carol

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Speaker 1: Moseley Braun from her nineteen ninety two run for senator.

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Speaker 1: All over the state, the feeling about this candidacy is electric,

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Speaker 1: and it's electric precisely because people know that we make

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Speaker 1: that this is a watershed election and that it's time

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Speaker 1: for change. It's time for change in Illinois, It's time

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Speaker 1: for change in this country. I say that to say that, like,

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Speaker 1: that's a really big political moment for you to be

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Speaker 1: like as a kid on the lap of your father

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Speaker 1: who's directly connected to these people. That, for my purposes,

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Speaker 1: that makes you an eyewitness to history. I'll rock your

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Speaker 1: your educational brain even more. Right. I think the reason

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Speaker 1: why they let me stay in the room because when

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Speaker 1: she was making I remember it like it was yesterday.

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Speaker 1: We were at Sherman Park. This was like July doing

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Speaker 1: that one of those votes from me campaign things, right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: on the south side, yes, sir. And so she had

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Speaker 1: like a campaign riley thing at Sherman Park and she

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Speaker 1: was sitting in the front. My dad was driving another car.

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Speaker 1: Cop was sitting next to me. And this was the

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Speaker 1: Peewee Little League Championship, and I chose to go with

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Speaker 1: my dad. Didn't play in the Peewee Little League Championship.

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Speaker 1: But I remember the conversation she said. You know, they

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Speaker 1: were like, can you believe you're getting ready to be

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Speaker 1: the first woman ever, first black woman ever, US Senator?

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Speaker 1: And then the same thing you said, they mentioned reconstruction,

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Speaker 1: and then she said, well that's the Chicago thing, baby,

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Speaker 1: because the priest was refirst to go to Congress since

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Speaker 1: reconstruction too, right, And I'm you know, ten to eleven

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Speaker 1: or something like that, but I couldn't wait to use

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Speaker 1: it the next time I was around my dad people. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So that's that's a really strong impression, both in terms

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Speaker 1: of like seeing this person who you know, is larger

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Speaker 1: than life in terms of her political achievements, and at

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Speaker 1: the same time, like getting these history lessons from this

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Speaker 1: same person. That's pretty incredible. I don't think right now,

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Speaker 1: I'm probably like that is a dopus hill, right, you

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Speaker 1: just feel like, yeah, I didn't have all those thoughts there.

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Speaker 1: That was I promised I did not, even most recently, right,

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Speaker 1: Like I just wanted to be around my pot got it,

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Speaker 1: you know that was that was because he was a cop.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't really home a lot, especially young ages. You know,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember him at all, six seven, eight years old.

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Speaker 1: I remember one time he got shot and I celebrated

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Speaker 1: because I was like, he for sure the way to

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Speaker 1: get get them some quality time, man, he would like

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Speaker 1: to do the next day. Yeah, he got shot in

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Speaker 1: his hand and they wrapped so whatever, and he went

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Speaker 1: back the next I was so pissed off. It must

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Speaker 1: not have been a shooting hand though. Right. That's hilarious. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back,

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Speaker 1: we'll dig into more Chicago history stories from Dillah. All right,

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Speaker 1: we are back talking to Sherman Dilla Thomas, the Chicago

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Speaker 1: booster and oral historian. So, Dillah, one of your taglines

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Speaker 1: is everything dope comes from Chicago. You're like one of

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Speaker 1: Chicago's biggest boosters. You celebrate this city and maybe just

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Speaker 1: like you know, tell us something dope that came from

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Speaker 1: Chicago that would surprise us, give us one of these

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Speaker 1: little history lessons. The fireman's pole, I think surprises most people.

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Speaker 1: The fireman's pole, like it's use a sliding down the hole,

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Speaker 1: comes from Chicago. It's about eighteen seventy four. Is eighteen

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Speaker 1: seventy five, and coming out of reconstruction, Chicago has created

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Speaker 1: and all black fire engine. This engine twenty one the

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Speaker 1: land by a white captain. But it's you know, twelve

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Speaker 1: fourteen brothers that fight fires in black. It's growing black

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Speaker 1: neighborhoods right that Chicago is starting a half we've ever

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Speaker 1: been in the fire station, you'll notice that it has

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Speaker 1: spiral stairs, when every fire station in the world has

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Speaker 1: spiral stairs, and the next to it is where the

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Speaker 1: pole is. The reason why the stairs a spiral is

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Speaker 1: because we used to fight fires with horses. The horses

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Speaker 1: used to walk up the stairs and eat all the

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Speaker 1: hay and then you be looking for the horse and

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Speaker 1: he up that sleep, right, So they created the spiral

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Speaker 1: stairs so the horse couldn't get up there. And the

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Speaker 1: next two it was they had the pole for the

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Speaker 1: hay loft right, So the hay is kept up in

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Speaker 1: the third floor because typically that's the highest place, right,

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Speaker 1: Hey needs to be dry, so you keep it up

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Speaker 1: high in the third floor and hay lofts right. And

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Speaker 1: then it was held in place with a pole. And

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Speaker 1: then because we lazy humans, right when the horse needed Hey,

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Speaker 1: you kicked the pole out the way and hey drops

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Speaker 1: down now where you ain't got to go all the

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Speaker 1: way up to the third floor. So it wasn't for

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Speaker 1: for firemen sliding down it, not at all. It was

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Speaker 1: just a letter. But you know who we don't talk

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Speaker 1: about enough in Chicago is the captain that like the

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Speaker 1: sad of his name is Captain Cooley Duan. He was

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Speaker 1: a hero of the Chicago fire in eighteen seventy one.

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Speaker 1: And when he's seen the black guys slid down that

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Speaker 1: that hey, poll he's the guy that was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's genius, go ahead and send it, so y'all don't

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Speaker 1: get splinters. And this is how we will respond from

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Speaker 1: here on out. So, Dylan, I'm listening to you. And like,

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Speaker 1: you know, Khalil and I are both you know, we

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Speaker 1: both write books, we both do tons of research, we

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Speaker 1: both write about Chicago like how do you get all

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Speaker 1: this information? Like how were you? What kind of research

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Speaker 1: do you do? And also like damn man, like you

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Speaker 1: got this all off the dome's what's up? Like you

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Speaker 1: remember all this jay Z ruined my life. So we'll

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Speaker 1: start there. I remember that that famous interview he did

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Speaker 1: where he was like, I don't write and it was

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Speaker 1: like what and he was like, you know, I just

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Speaker 1: say my rhymes and myself been ovan by the time

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Speaker 1: I get back to the house, I don't need to

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Speaker 1: write them down right there. It becomes an exercise. I

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Speaker 1: went to Eastern Illinois University majoring in English and African

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Speaker 1: American studies and probably wrote three papers because I would

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Speaker 1: always say, let me give it to you orally. Right.

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Speaker 1: So when when people read say like your book High Rises, right,

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Speaker 1: like oh oh man, good look at them. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: jacked so much stuff out of that book, then better

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Speaker 1: than that, I immediately want to read the stuff that

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Speaker 1: you sourced from right right, you know, And though those

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00:18:38,916 --> 00:18:41,956
Speaker 1: are the cheats that I think people people forget about,

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Speaker 1: right we want to run in Wikipedia and other online sources,

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Speaker 1: A lot of that stuff ain't online, and that in

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Speaker 1: that in that way, right you gotta like dog. So

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Speaker 1: you're just you're reading all the time and going to

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Speaker 1: the library and picking up books. I mean you're like

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Speaker 1: just he's reading footnotes. Man, that's more than just reading.

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Speaker 1: That's footnotes. Yeah. Yeah, I'm so happy I get to

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Speaker 1: finally proclaim that I'm a nerd. Right, I don't gotta

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Speaker 1: think like I like football anymore. For my friends and

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Speaker 1: all that that was, I've had to live like this

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Speaker 1: double life forever. Like I was way cooler than I was.

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Speaker 1: So I would be sitting at the super Bowl while

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Speaker 1: everybody's cheering, and I would be on my phone, like

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Speaker 1: researching who Charles Whacker is, because all day long I've

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Speaker 1: been trying to figure out why they call it Whacker drive. Right,

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Speaker 1: So like researching is my pasttime, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: Like I allow an idea to formulate, or I fixate

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Speaker 1: on something and then you know, I'm researching on that thing,

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Speaker 1: and then out of that you get so many you know,

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Speaker 1: bread chromes and those type of things. So that's just

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Speaker 1: how I passed the time. You mentioned my book High Risers,

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Speaker 1: which is about Cabrini Green, a public house and complex

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Speaker 1: sens in Chicago, and I think I wrote it for

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Speaker 1: a lot of the reasons you're talking about. What you

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Speaker 1: do is that this was a place that was demonized

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Speaker 1: because of its poverty and also violence. And you did

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Speaker 1: a TikTok related to my book. Let's press the TikTok

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Speaker 1: machine and listen to it. Pretty impossible to discuss the

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Speaker 1: history of Cabrini Green in sixty seconds. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: give it a try. And that the stories there were

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Speaker 1: much more complex and many many lives that needed to

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Speaker 1: be you know, and many stories that needed to be

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Speaker 1: told that weren't being covered. But you did do a

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Speaker 1: TikTok about Cabrini Green. And when you posted it and

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Speaker 1: mentioned my book, you said I owed you a hot dog. Yeah,

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00:20:23,636 --> 00:20:26,036
Speaker 1: yeah right. I gotta believe the one I got the

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Speaker 1: receipts because at least a dozen people, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: just post your book. I said, buy this book. Man.

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Speaker 1: That is great. We got to hear that clip. Despite it,

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Speaker 1: all the residents of Cabrini Green had a great sense

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Speaker 1: of community by this book. I think the TikTok with

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Speaker 1: the first posting gay like maybe a hundred thirty thousand views.

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Speaker 1: How much you're paying for a commercial for one hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty thousand people. So I'll get you a hot

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Speaker 1: dog if you could, If you could tell us what

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Speaker 1: is the history of the Chicago style hot dog? You know,

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Speaker 1: no one knows that it's such a wives tale sort

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Speaker 1: of thing, right, the no catchup. The best that I

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Speaker 1: can find is that there are already so many ingredients

396
00:21:05,876 --> 00:21:08,276
Speaker 1: on it that you don't you don't need to catch up, right,

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Speaker 1: I tell you the ords like Italian beef. I love

398
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Speaker 1: telling that story. Bring it, Come on with that story.

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Speaker 1: So you know, two of the most iconic Chicago foods

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Speaker 1: are the hot dog and then of course Italian beef

401
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Speaker 1: because you know that deep dish pizza. I'm not really

402
00:21:22,916 --> 00:21:26,196
Speaker 1: into that Italian beef comes from how we used to uh,

403
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Speaker 1: Italian grannies give us Italian beefs. Right. The Italians were

404
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Speaker 1: right the last arriving immigrants to Chicago at that moment,

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Speaker 1: and when they used to walk into the butcher that

406
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Speaker 1: was discriminated against. So you know, if you're a Yankee Protestant, right,

407
00:21:38,916 --> 00:21:40,996
Speaker 1: they would sell you the surloin of the t bone.

408
00:21:41,036 --> 00:21:43,516
Speaker 1: But you were a darker, complexted Irish lady, I mean

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Speaker 1: Italian lady. You had to buy the run rows. Right,

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Speaker 1: that's what they would sell to you, the chitlands of

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Speaker 1: the cow. Right. And that's not a very tender cut

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Speaker 1: of meat. Yeah, that's not a great advertisement for Italian beef.

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Speaker 1: It's not at all, right, But this is what but see,

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Speaker 1: that's the beauty about Chicago. Out of discrimination comes amazing shit. Right.

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Speaker 1: Because she was discriminated in the butchers. What did she do?

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Speaker 1: She's like, Okay, I ain't gona worry about it. I'm

417
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Speaker 1: gonna put it in its slow cooker and when my

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Speaker 1: husband leaves out for work, I'll turn it on, and

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Speaker 1: by the time he gets from work, I'll turn it off.

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Speaker 1: And anything you cooked for eight hours is going to

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Speaker 1: be the most tender thing. Right. And what's the cheat?

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00:22:20,156 --> 00:22:22,396
Speaker 1: The cheat is the bread. And it don't take anything,

423
00:22:22,516 --> 00:22:25,516
Speaker 1: especially if you're making homemade bread. Right, little flower, little doe,

424
00:22:25,596 --> 00:22:29,516
Speaker 1: little whatever, right, you make amazing bread. She took that

425
00:22:29,596 --> 00:22:33,156
Speaker 1: then eight hour cut roast the rump rights and thinly

426
00:22:33,236 --> 00:22:35,916
Speaker 1: sliced it and fair The kids say a little bit

427
00:22:35,956 --> 00:22:38,196
Speaker 1: for his lunch, right, And then every day more and

428
00:22:38,276 --> 00:22:40,236
Speaker 1: more people are like, throw they lunch away and start

429
00:22:40,236 --> 00:22:42,396
Speaker 1: asking Broth for some of his sandwiches because they was

430
00:22:42,396 --> 00:22:45,356
Speaker 1: really really juicy and tender because they cooked all day,

431
00:22:45,556 --> 00:22:48,476
Speaker 1: and he started selling it so many of his lunch sandwiches.

432
00:22:48,516 --> 00:22:50,876
Speaker 1: He quit his job and you know ours beef right,

433
00:22:50,956 --> 00:22:53,556
Speaker 1: Like damn, man, if you got to be careful asking

434
00:22:53,596 --> 00:22:56,116
Speaker 1: you a question, it is like it opens one door

435
00:22:56,156 --> 00:22:59,796
Speaker 1: and then another and then another. You just like, go ahead, Khalil, Well,

436
00:22:59,836 --> 00:23:04,116
Speaker 1: I'm curious. So do you have any inspirations, role models,

437
00:23:04,156 --> 00:23:08,316
Speaker 1: people who you have now begun to model yourself now

438
00:23:08,356 --> 00:23:12,076
Speaker 1: that you've become basically the most famous Chicago historian. I mean,

439
00:23:12,236 --> 00:23:15,596
Speaker 1: at this point you own that title. Thank you. Send

440
00:23:15,676 --> 00:23:18,196
Speaker 1: this clip to the city so that they can make

441
00:23:18,236 --> 00:23:22,396
Speaker 1: me the official culture historian. I'm definitely chasing the legacy

442
00:23:22,396 --> 00:23:25,876
Speaker 1: of Tamil Black. There would go, yeah, wow, Tamil Black.

443
00:23:25,956 --> 00:23:28,796
Speaker 1: Let me just say so. He died one year ago

444
00:23:29,316 --> 00:23:32,036
Speaker 1: at age one hundred and two, and he was i'd say,

445
00:23:32,116 --> 00:23:36,916
Speaker 1: Chicago's greatest historian and lived Chicago history, you know, moving

446
00:23:36,916 --> 00:23:40,636
Speaker 1: here from the South, being a civil rights leader, schooling

447
00:23:40,676 --> 00:23:43,876
Speaker 1: Barack Obama. You know, you are living his legacy. Tell

448
00:23:43,956 --> 00:23:46,396
Speaker 1: us more about him. He moved to Chicago a couple

449
00:23:46,396 --> 00:23:48,836
Speaker 1: of months after the race riot in nineteen nineteen. He

450
00:23:48,916 --> 00:23:52,276
Speaker 1: was an infant. He's a gentleman that invited doctor King

451
00:23:52,396 --> 00:23:55,036
Speaker 1: speaked in Chicago for the first time, right because he

452
00:23:55,076 --> 00:23:58,756
Speaker 1: was already a civil rights activist, right, Yeah, absolutely, He's

453
00:23:58,836 --> 00:24:03,036
Speaker 1: a World War Two veteran. He was at DuSable with

454
00:24:03,956 --> 00:24:08,596
Speaker 1: Red Fox, nattem Co, Dinah Washington, Harold Washable as a

455
00:24:08,676 --> 00:24:11,476
Speaker 1: high school here on the South Side, second Black High School,

456
00:24:11,996 --> 00:24:14,556
Speaker 1: second high school constructive for African Americans in the city's

457
00:24:14,596 --> 00:24:16,476
Speaker 1: history on the South Side. Man, I love all that

458
00:24:16,516 --> 00:24:19,236
Speaker 1: I love. Tamil Black is amazing. I had the great

459
00:24:19,276 --> 00:24:22,556
Speaker 1: honor of interviewing him a couple of times. You know,

460
00:24:22,636 --> 00:24:26,076
Speaker 1: he is a Chicago booster, and you know, so are you.

461
00:24:26,396 --> 00:24:28,476
Speaker 1: And I want to talk more about this idea of

462
00:24:28,516 --> 00:24:31,516
Speaker 1: what it means to be so positive about a city,

463
00:24:31,636 --> 00:24:34,796
Speaker 1: so positive about Chicago, because this is something this is

464
00:24:34,836 --> 00:24:37,556
Speaker 1: something I actually think about all the time, Della and Khalil,

465
00:24:37,916 --> 00:24:40,916
Speaker 1: you don't only think about it, You really obsess over

466
00:24:40,956 --> 00:24:45,076
Speaker 1: this question because so much of your work is about

467
00:24:45,116 --> 00:24:47,916
Speaker 1: pushing back against stereotypes. I'm talking to you Ben about

468
00:24:48,436 --> 00:24:50,876
Speaker 1: like the crime and the violence and all of that. Yeah,

469
00:24:50,876 --> 00:24:53,236
Speaker 1: And at the same time, right, so I'm writing about

470
00:24:53,396 --> 00:24:56,996
Speaker 1: criminal justice issues. I'm writing about poverty and segregation in Chicago.

471
00:24:57,036 --> 00:25:00,796
Speaker 1: I'm writing about what the reality of Chicago. And it's

472
00:25:00,836 --> 00:25:04,196
Speaker 1: also like we're getting all these messages about Chicago which

473
00:25:04,196 --> 00:25:07,476
Speaker 1: are or extreme, you know, whether it's like this hell

474
00:25:07,556 --> 00:25:11,756
Speaker 1: hole or whether it's you know, when that movie came out,

475
00:25:11,796 --> 00:25:15,596
Speaker 1: you were so pissed. Those are just abstractions. It's like

476
00:25:15,676 --> 00:25:19,916
Speaker 1: just just the worst stuff exists in isolation without anything else.

477
00:25:20,836 --> 00:25:24,076
Speaker 1: But the bad stuff really is there too, like and

478
00:25:24,196 --> 00:25:28,036
Speaker 1: so so the struggle is like to address these real

479
00:25:28,076 --> 00:25:30,716
Speaker 1: issues because it's important to grapple with them, to wrestle

480
00:25:30,796 --> 00:25:33,316
Speaker 1: with them, because otherwise we can't we can't change them.

481
00:25:33,516 --> 00:25:36,476
Speaker 1: How do we do both? The example I use when

482
00:25:36,516 --> 00:25:38,996
Speaker 1: I get asked this particular type of question, I really

483
00:25:38,996 --> 00:25:41,516
Speaker 1: feel like I'm preaching to the quiet, especially talking to you, brother,

484
00:25:41,596 --> 00:25:45,196
Speaker 1: being is like, my daughter has asthma. We probably on

485
00:25:45,276 --> 00:25:47,996
Speaker 1: our way to like go get a breathing treatment tomorrow,

486
00:25:48,076 --> 00:25:50,196
Speaker 1: the way that her asthma is going to date right,

487
00:25:51,556 --> 00:25:55,276
Speaker 1: thank you, brother. So I understand wanting to deal with

488
00:25:55,316 --> 00:25:57,716
Speaker 1: the symptoms that are in front of me right now,

489
00:25:57,836 --> 00:26:00,276
Speaker 1: right when she gets the coffin, she has a running nose.

490
00:26:00,556 --> 00:26:02,436
Speaker 1: I want to give her a hause I wanted to

491
00:26:02,436 --> 00:26:04,636
Speaker 1: blow a nose. I want to get to dehumidified in

492
00:26:04,676 --> 00:26:07,716
Speaker 1: her room. Right, But you know, if that's all I

493
00:26:07,796 --> 00:26:10,156
Speaker 1: ever do each time she gets sick, she's gonna keep

494
00:26:10,156 --> 00:26:12,236
Speaker 1: getting sick every now and again. I got to go

495
00:26:12,276 --> 00:26:14,636
Speaker 1: into basement and check the filters, right, I gotta see

496
00:26:14,676 --> 00:26:18,636
Speaker 1: what's blowing through this house that's making her sick. Beyond that, right,

497
00:26:18,676 --> 00:26:20,396
Speaker 1: I might have to get a plumber in because her

498
00:26:20,476 --> 00:26:22,996
Speaker 1: room is by the bathroom to check the wet wall

499
00:26:23,036 --> 00:26:25,796
Speaker 1: and see, right, if there's mold behind the walls that

500
00:26:25,876 --> 00:26:28,236
Speaker 1: we can't see. What's my long winded point when we

501
00:26:28,276 --> 00:26:30,796
Speaker 1: talk about the people that got shot and the people

502
00:26:30,836 --> 00:26:33,116
Speaker 1: that got killed, I'm I hate that they got killed.

503
00:26:33,156 --> 00:26:34,876
Speaker 1: I hate that they got shot. I think that that

504
00:26:34,956 --> 00:26:38,556
Speaker 1: needs attention. But like that's where the stat starts and stops, right,

505
00:26:38,716 --> 00:26:41,516
Speaker 1: And we don't mention that the three people that got

506
00:26:41,596 --> 00:26:46,676
Speaker 1: killed are involved in the STL versus Old Block war

507
00:26:46,836 --> 00:26:50,716
Speaker 1: that started because rom Emmanuel closed fifty schools and so

508
00:26:50,836 --> 00:26:53,756
Speaker 1: three kids had to cross Kane Drive where formerly those

509
00:26:53,836 --> 00:26:56,196
Speaker 1: kids never cross Kane Drive to go to school. Then

510
00:26:56,236 --> 00:26:57,956
Speaker 1: one of them got you know what I mean, Like

511
00:26:58,236 --> 00:27:00,676
Speaker 1: spell that shit all the way out right and then

512
00:27:00,716 --> 00:27:03,716
Speaker 1: talk about how it always always always goes back to

513
00:27:03,796 --> 00:27:06,716
Speaker 1: some kind of systemic bullshit. You know what, Ian we

514
00:27:06,796 --> 00:27:10,276
Speaker 1: usually cart racism. I like, it's just systemic bullshit. Better

515
00:27:10,636 --> 00:27:12,516
Speaker 1: that is from the heroin out been rest of the

516
00:27:12,516 --> 00:27:31,556
Speaker 1: season is just systemic bullshit. We are back on. Some

517
00:27:31,676 --> 00:27:35,396
Speaker 1: of my best friends are with Sherman Dylah Thomas. It

518
00:27:35,476 --> 00:27:37,956
Speaker 1: seems to me what you're saying is that the structural

519
00:27:37,996 --> 00:27:41,036
Speaker 1: bullshit has to be addressed also by how people see

520
00:27:41,076 --> 00:27:44,116
Speaker 1: themselves there in the history of the place they live in,

521
00:27:44,516 --> 00:27:47,836
Speaker 1: that that all these stories you're telling are a way

522
00:27:47,836 --> 00:27:51,996
Speaker 1: of empowering young people, especially that you should have pride

523
00:27:51,996 --> 00:27:54,156
Speaker 1: of place, that a lot of people did a lot

524
00:27:54,156 --> 00:27:56,516
Speaker 1: of wonderful things here and people have been fighting for

525
00:27:56,596 --> 00:27:58,796
Speaker 1: justice here. You don't have to do this alone. You

526
00:27:58,876 --> 00:28:02,476
Speaker 1: have this this inspiration and I'm going to tell you

527
00:28:02,516 --> 00:28:04,636
Speaker 1: these stories and guess what, it's not just a couple

528
00:28:04,636 --> 00:28:06,556
Speaker 1: of stories, and it's not just Black History month, man,

529
00:28:06,636 --> 00:28:09,116
Speaker 1: It is fucking TikTok. Every day. I get that right,

530
00:28:09,196 --> 00:28:11,556
Speaker 1: every day. You know, they got these kids to go

531
00:28:11,596 --> 00:28:15,276
Speaker 1: to Irvin Mollison Elementary which is on forty fifth and

532
00:28:15,356 --> 00:28:17,476
Speaker 1: King Drive on the South side of Chicago. Whenever I

533
00:28:17,556 --> 00:28:19,396
Speaker 1: come across the kid to go to Mollison. I asked

534
00:28:19,436 --> 00:28:21,956
Speaker 1: them who is Irvin Mollison. They can never tell me.

535
00:28:22,236 --> 00:28:24,436
Speaker 1: But then I say, have you ever read A Raisin

536
00:28:24,516 --> 00:28:26,756
Speaker 1: in the Sun, right, And they say, oh, yeah, right

537
00:28:26,796 --> 00:28:29,476
Speaker 1: with Lorraine Hansbury. Okay, Well, it was Earl Dickerson and

538
00:28:29,516 --> 00:28:32,476
Speaker 1: Irvin Mollison that were his lawyers that took that case

539
00:28:32,516 --> 00:28:35,396
Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court that opened up Woodline right that

540
00:28:35,436 --> 00:28:39,396
Speaker 1: it allowed for that eventually Emmett Till's mom and everybody

541
00:28:39,436 --> 00:28:42,516
Speaker 1: else starts to move into into Woodline. It's because of

542
00:28:42,556 --> 00:28:46,436
Speaker 1: Irvin Mollison, Earl B. Dickerson. Wow, there's so much history

543
00:28:46,476 --> 00:28:48,316
Speaker 1: you've packed in there. I mean, this is why you're

544
00:28:48,316 --> 00:28:51,996
Speaker 1: so amazing. You know, everyone, including my own kids, have

545
00:28:52,076 --> 00:28:55,436
Speaker 1: read Lorraine Hansberry's classic work, A Raising in the Sun.

546
00:28:55,516 --> 00:28:57,316
Speaker 1: And if people haven't read it, they might have seen

547
00:28:57,356 --> 00:29:02,036
Speaker 1: the movie starring Sydney Portier. And to know that the

548
00:29:02,076 --> 00:29:05,476
Speaker 1: people who were responsible for helping that black family, her

549
00:29:05,556 --> 00:29:09,596
Speaker 1: black family move into Woodlawn and to help alterantly to

550
00:29:09,596 --> 00:29:12,476
Speaker 1: bring down restrictive covenants. One of the main ways in

551
00:29:12,516 --> 00:29:16,636
Speaker 1: which black people were segregated all across the country, including

552
00:29:16,676 --> 00:29:20,236
Speaker 1: places like Chicago. That's a lot of important history you're

553
00:29:20,236 --> 00:29:22,596
Speaker 1: talking about. Man, Why aren't the people that go You

554
00:29:22,596 --> 00:29:24,196
Speaker 1: should as soon as you walk into Irban Moleson, it

555
00:29:24,236 --> 00:29:25,916
Speaker 1: should be a sign. You should have to read it

556
00:29:25,916 --> 00:29:28,116
Speaker 1: every day to graduate kindergarten. Then you should have to

557
00:29:28,476 --> 00:29:31,756
Speaker 1: recite it by heart to graduate out of eighth grade, right,

558
00:29:31,796 --> 00:29:33,476
Speaker 1: and then then you know what I mean. But yeah,

559
00:29:33,476 --> 00:29:35,916
Speaker 1: and it's and it's kind of crazy and insane that

560
00:29:36,156 --> 00:29:39,076
Speaker 1: kids who go to Mollison Elementary don't know that history,

561
00:29:39,156 --> 00:29:41,916
Speaker 1: don't know the story of that civil rights struggle, that's

562
00:29:41,956 --> 00:29:46,076
Speaker 1: their history. And so your tiktoks are both addressing things

563
00:29:46,076 --> 00:29:48,236
Speaker 1: that we should feel pride and and but there they

564
00:29:48,276 --> 00:29:53,036
Speaker 1: are addressing these systemic bullshit problems. Yeah, for sure. Right,

565
00:29:53,036 --> 00:29:54,916
Speaker 1: if you're traveling anywhere in the world, you're gonna walk

566
00:29:54,956 --> 00:29:56,796
Speaker 1: back somebody with cubs had or a sock's head or

567
00:29:56,796 --> 00:29:58,756
Speaker 1: a bear's head, and then y'all gonna make this ad

568
00:29:58,836 --> 00:30:01,316
Speaker 1: contact with each other, right and give each other that head. Nine.

569
00:30:01,356 --> 00:30:03,556
Speaker 1: It don't matter what ethnicity they are. If y'all out

570
00:30:03,556 --> 00:30:06,836
Speaker 1: of town, y'all both from Chicago, it's gonna be an acknowledgement, right,

571
00:30:07,076 --> 00:30:09,836
Speaker 1: TikTok allows for that to happen. I don't see the

572
00:30:09,876 --> 00:30:12,236
Speaker 1: head not back, right, but when they when they get

573
00:30:12,276 --> 00:30:14,036
Speaker 1: the video and they see me, they were able to

574
00:30:14,076 --> 00:30:17,036
Speaker 1: give that Chicago head nod. But it also sounds like

575
00:30:17,156 --> 00:30:19,876
Speaker 1: you have a huge audience outside of Chicago. And if

576
00:30:19,916 --> 00:30:22,476
Speaker 1: that's true, what do you think appeals to people who

577
00:30:22,556 --> 00:30:26,996
Speaker 1: are not actually Chicagoans? I think think the truth, Right,

578
00:30:27,316 --> 00:30:32,476
Speaker 1: there's a natural Chicago curiosity, La curiosity, New York curiosity,

579
00:30:32,876 --> 00:30:37,076
Speaker 1: and hearing bullcrap sometimes sounds like bullcrap and so and

580
00:30:37,156 --> 00:30:39,556
Speaker 1: when you mean bullcrap of like vilifying the city, of

581
00:30:39,556 --> 00:30:41,556
Speaker 1: saying the city is a war zone, of saying that

582
00:30:41,596 --> 00:30:43,196
Speaker 1: it's all like did you if you go in there,

583
00:30:43,236 --> 00:30:46,836
Speaker 1: you're gonna get shot? Like it's it's dangerous everywhere you go. Yep,

584
00:30:47,076 --> 00:30:49,716
Speaker 1: absolutely well. Last year, right, I announced that we want

585
00:30:49,756 --> 00:30:52,996
Speaker 1: best dig City for five years running about Kande Nassis

586
00:30:53,036 --> 00:30:56,676
Speaker 1: Reader's choice. It's a national platform, right, Yes, Chicagoans ain't

587
00:30:56,676 --> 00:30:59,356
Speaker 1: sitting around feeling out to that survey. Right, people coming

588
00:30:59,396 --> 00:31:02,676
Speaker 1: to Chicago's filing out that survey. And it's true, We're

589
00:31:02,716 --> 00:31:05,596
Speaker 1: an amazing city. I believe it was Northwestern that did

590
00:31:05,596 --> 00:31:08,876
Speaker 1: a study that said it was like really really telling

591
00:31:08,916 --> 00:31:12,636
Speaker 1: to it, like ninety two percent of all people who

592
00:31:12,676 --> 00:31:15,956
Speaker 1: get shot in Chicago had a ninety five percent probability

593
00:31:15,956 --> 00:31:18,836
Speaker 1: of getting shot in Chicago based off of the lifestyle

594
00:31:18,916 --> 00:31:21,716
Speaker 1: that they were living, right, And so what that makes

595
00:31:21,756 --> 00:31:25,116
Speaker 1: me want to talk about is the other two point

596
00:31:25,156 --> 00:31:28,156
Speaker 1: five million of us who are outside of that number,

597
00:31:28,396 --> 00:31:30,996
Speaker 1: who day by day don't get shot, right, who the

598
00:31:31,036 --> 00:31:33,916
Speaker 1: probability says we aren't going to get shot because of

599
00:31:33,916 --> 00:31:38,436
Speaker 1: the amazing things, but just the culture and the sustainability

600
00:31:38,516 --> 00:31:41,556
Speaker 1: of our city. Global warming is real, the same way

601
00:31:41,556 --> 00:31:44,316
Speaker 1: that everybody's beating up on Chicago. Now, in fifty years,

602
00:31:44,716 --> 00:31:46,756
Speaker 1: we're going to be right back over crowded just because

603
00:31:46,796 --> 00:31:50,196
Speaker 1: of Lake Michigan. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I'm still struggling

604
00:31:50,516 --> 00:31:52,076
Speaker 1: with this idea of what it means to be a

605
00:31:52,076 --> 00:31:55,676
Speaker 1: booster for a place. And I actually follow you because

606
00:31:55,676 --> 00:31:58,276
Speaker 1: it gives me, it makes me feel good about my home,

607
00:31:58,716 --> 00:32:01,236
Speaker 1: and I'm hearing things I want to hear. And I'm

608
00:32:01,236 --> 00:32:04,716
Speaker 1: also walking the streets on the South Side, and you know,

609
00:32:05,036 --> 00:32:07,596
Speaker 1: a car suddenly zooms up and the first thought that's

610
00:32:07,596 --> 00:32:09,196
Speaker 1: in my head is like, there's about to be a

611
00:32:09,356 --> 00:32:11,636
Speaker 1: jacking because has actually been like two or three on

612
00:32:11,716 --> 00:32:15,276
Speaker 1: the block, like not like imaginary stuff, real stuff. And

613
00:32:15,756 --> 00:32:18,756
Speaker 1: when there's a shooting at the school two blocks for me,

614
00:32:19,396 --> 00:32:21,516
Speaker 1: where parents are pulling their kids out and I've got

615
00:32:21,516 --> 00:32:24,516
Speaker 1: neighbors who want to move, Like, it's not just that

616
00:32:24,636 --> 00:32:27,036
Speaker 1: five percent that got shot, it's also like all the

617
00:32:27,076 --> 00:32:30,116
Speaker 1: residual effects of all this stuff, which is real, as

618
00:32:30,156 --> 00:32:32,036
Speaker 1: you know. And like what you're really talking about his fear,

619
00:32:32,156 --> 00:32:34,556
Speaker 1: this fear, a sense of like how do you even

620
00:32:34,676 --> 00:32:37,076
Speaker 1: rationally deal with danger? I mean, you were talking about

621
00:32:37,116 --> 00:32:40,676
Speaker 1: your father being on the Chicago Police Department for thirty

622
00:32:40,756 --> 00:32:43,796
Speaker 1: years and you obviously you saw a lot firsthand, and

623
00:32:43,796 --> 00:32:47,356
Speaker 1: you feel great pride in what he did, Like even personally,

624
00:32:47,676 --> 00:32:50,236
Speaker 1: how do you tell his story and celebrate what he

625
00:32:50,276 --> 00:32:54,236
Speaker 1: did and also tell the story of abusive policing that's

626
00:32:54,236 --> 00:32:58,436
Speaker 1: also part of the story of Chicago. You just tell it.

627
00:32:58,996 --> 00:33:01,676
Speaker 1: You know, it's going to have a little bias in

628
00:33:01,716 --> 00:33:04,716
Speaker 1: it because I'm a Chicago and right my perspective is black,

629
00:33:04,756 --> 00:33:07,316
Speaker 1: So maybe I'm slightly rooting for the black guy in

630
00:33:07,356 --> 00:33:10,676
Speaker 1: the story a little more. What do you imagine? I

631
00:33:10,756 --> 00:33:13,596
Speaker 1: try to just have a very objective perspective about the

632
00:33:13,676 --> 00:33:16,756
Speaker 1: stories that I'm telling. And I think because of the

633
00:33:16,836 --> 00:33:20,356
Speaker 1: intersectionalities of my life, it makes it makes me uniquely

634
00:33:20,396 --> 00:33:22,596
Speaker 1: able to do it right, you know. Can you give

635
00:33:22,636 --> 00:33:25,716
Speaker 1: an example? Yeah? Absolutely. There was nothing better for me

636
00:33:25,756 --> 00:33:27,836
Speaker 1: than to just watch. He taught me how to tie

637
00:33:27,876 --> 00:33:31,076
Speaker 1: a tie at four and so I would tie his

638
00:33:31,196 --> 00:33:33,596
Speaker 1: ties when he put in his uniform on and I

639
00:33:33,676 --> 00:33:35,276
Speaker 1: was standing there and wait to hand it to him,

640
00:33:35,316 --> 00:33:37,236
Speaker 1: so he just pull it around his neck. And just

641
00:33:37,276 --> 00:33:39,916
Speaker 1: seeing him put that badge on, right, seeing him put

642
00:33:39,916 --> 00:33:41,996
Speaker 1: his gun in his host that it gave me a

643
00:33:42,476 --> 00:33:44,516
Speaker 1: He was a superhero to you. Your father was a

644
00:33:44,556 --> 00:33:48,196
Speaker 1: superhero to you, and just not just he made police

645
00:33:48,556 --> 00:33:53,116
Speaker 1: superheroes to me, right, And then it could be hours later.

646
00:33:53,156 --> 00:33:55,036
Speaker 1: I'm at the rink on eighty seven Street on the

647
00:33:55,036 --> 00:33:56,956
Speaker 1: South Side with my friends and the cop and say

648
00:33:56,996 --> 00:33:59,236
Speaker 1: hey move and I don't move fast enough, and I

649
00:33:59,276 --> 00:34:02,196
Speaker 1: got a nab miller meet at my head. Right. It

650
00:34:02,356 --> 00:34:05,196
Speaker 1: didn't even get enough time to register your acts and

651
00:34:05,236 --> 00:34:07,596
Speaker 1: me to walk away. Man, that's crazy. So a cop

652
00:34:07,636 --> 00:34:10,356
Speaker 1: put a gun to your head. What and you're you're

653
00:34:10,396 --> 00:34:13,196
Speaker 1: not saying a hypothetical, You're talking about something. This is

654
00:34:13,636 --> 00:34:15,756
Speaker 1: one thousand percent what happened to me. This is a

655
00:34:15,836 --> 00:34:18,476
Speaker 1: thousand percent what happened to me. I was chilling. I

656
00:34:18,636 --> 00:34:21,356
Speaker 1: just got my license. This is not a hypothetical, right,

657
00:34:22,116 --> 00:34:23,996
Speaker 1: Like I did all the time, handed him his tie

658
00:34:23,996 --> 00:34:25,596
Speaker 1: to go to work and you know, to have a

659
00:34:25,596 --> 00:34:27,836
Speaker 1: great day dad. And it still felt that pride that

660
00:34:27,876 --> 00:34:29,916
Speaker 1: I had been filling my whole life. And so both

661
00:34:29,956 --> 00:34:31,876
Speaker 1: of those are true at the same time, at the

662
00:34:31,956 --> 00:34:35,036
Speaker 1: same time. Man, And it's it's those It's so many

663
00:34:35,036 --> 00:34:37,956
Speaker 1: stories I come across from all the time. I'm only

664
00:34:37,956 --> 00:34:41,876
Speaker 1: emphasizing how incredible this brother's storytelling is. I mean he is.

665
00:34:42,036 --> 00:34:44,796
Speaker 1: He is telling stories that people ought to know. This

666
00:34:44,876 --> 00:34:47,916
Speaker 1: isn't just a Chicago story. These are national stories. That's

667
00:34:47,956 --> 00:34:50,156
Speaker 1: the other thing about messaging. And I think that's our

668
00:34:50,276 --> 00:34:53,076
Speaker 1: problem as a city, right, you know, the people who

669
00:34:53,156 --> 00:34:55,756
Speaker 1: work in city hall, right or whoever does our advertising

670
00:34:55,956 --> 00:35:00,156
Speaker 1: I'm messaging stinks. This is the worst. Right. So one

671
00:35:00,236 --> 00:35:03,516
Speaker 1: last question, Della, one last question for you. You're celebrating

672
00:35:03,556 --> 00:35:06,836
Speaker 1: all these amazing Chicago things. Everything dope comes from Chicago.

673
00:35:07,356 --> 00:35:09,796
Speaker 1: So Khalil and I are from Chicago. Yeah, man, we

674
00:35:09,836 --> 00:35:12,756
Speaker 1: want to be celebrated, right, Like you know, when you

675
00:35:12,836 --> 00:35:15,636
Speaker 1: do the TikTok about us, we're making history. A white

676
00:35:15,636 --> 00:35:18,276
Speaker 1: guy and a black guy getting together. You know, he

677
00:35:18,396 --> 00:35:22,396
Speaker 1: broke the color line of podcasts. You know, when you

678
00:35:22,476 --> 00:35:25,716
Speaker 1: do the TikTok about us, what's the hook gonna be?

679
00:35:26,556 --> 00:35:28,556
Speaker 1: Let's see who I'm gonna compare you guys too. I

680
00:35:28,596 --> 00:35:34,236
Speaker 1: think I will make the comparisons. You'll be Julius Rosenwall, right,

681
00:35:35,276 --> 00:35:38,756
Speaker 1: Sears the founder of Sears Roebuck Company. So he's the

682
00:35:38,756 --> 00:35:41,556
Speaker 1: reason why you know what Sears and Roebuck Company is today.

683
00:35:41,676 --> 00:35:45,076
Speaker 1: When he took over as president, they were at about

684
00:35:45,076 --> 00:35:47,516
Speaker 1: two hundred thousand a year, and when he left to

685
00:35:47,556 --> 00:35:50,956
Speaker 1: pursue philanthropy BA totally, they were like a two hundred

686
00:35:51,116 --> 00:35:53,836
Speaker 1: million a year, and this is nineteen twenties money, all right.

687
00:35:53,876 --> 00:35:56,756
Speaker 1: So not the founder, he just built the company into something,

688
00:35:56,956 --> 00:36:00,156
Speaker 1: built the company out right. He's also he created two

689
00:36:00,156 --> 00:36:02,636
Speaker 1: thousand high schools in the South. John Lewis graduated from

690
00:36:02,636 --> 00:36:04,956
Speaker 1: a Rosenwater school. To name the Google as soon as

691
00:36:04,956 --> 00:36:09,276
Speaker 1: you hear this podcast right now, Julius Rosenwall, that's a lot, man.

692
00:36:09,356 --> 00:36:12,156
Speaker 1: So I'm like, damn, well, what's left so that that

693
00:36:12,396 --> 00:36:14,716
Speaker 1: would be being and then I think you, brother Muhammed,

694
00:36:14,756 --> 00:36:20,836
Speaker 1: you'd be Carter G. Woodson. Man. You know, such grad school,

695
00:36:20,836 --> 00:36:24,276
Speaker 1: the University of Chicago, holding shop at the wabash Y MCA,

696
00:36:24,316 --> 00:36:25,876
Speaker 1: which is on the south side of which is the

697
00:36:26,076 --> 00:36:30,676
Speaker 1: birthplace a Black History Month, all of the lectures. Right,

698
00:36:30,716 --> 00:36:35,636
Speaker 1: he personally, you know, schooled so many people. He got

699
00:36:35,716 --> 00:36:38,876
Speaker 1: Archibald Motley to to continue to paint, right, that's right,

700
00:36:38,956 --> 00:36:42,596
Speaker 1: one of the Renaissance painters. He was. He was in

701
00:36:42,716 --> 00:36:47,476
Speaker 1: Chicago at such a pivotal time teaching organizational skills and

702
00:36:47,516 --> 00:36:50,276
Speaker 1: then eventually right they found the Chicago urban Ly they

703
00:36:50,356 --> 00:36:54,196
Speaker 1: get the Chicago branch of the NAACP. But it's a

704
00:36:54,196 --> 00:36:57,196
Speaker 1: lot to do with people who were as students of

705
00:36:57,276 --> 00:36:59,876
Speaker 1: him while he was a student, right you know, so

706
00:37:00,356 --> 00:37:03,436
Speaker 1: that that that that'd be YouTube, got it? Got it?

707
00:37:03,716 --> 00:37:06,636
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. So Ben, Ben's the philanthropist. So Ben,

708
00:37:06,756 --> 00:37:09,356
Speaker 1: I need some money, man, I need and you to

709
00:37:09,396 --> 00:37:12,116
Speaker 1: fund my next research project. You know, when this serious

710
00:37:12,116 --> 00:37:14,036
Speaker 1: thing blows up, I got you. I just need this.

711
00:37:14,236 --> 00:37:16,236
Speaker 1: I just need this serious thing to blow out. Way.

712
00:37:17,596 --> 00:37:20,556
Speaker 1: You are doing so much, not just for Chicago, but

713
00:37:20,676 --> 00:37:23,396
Speaker 1: for lifting up the stories of our past that we

714
00:37:23,436 --> 00:37:25,996
Speaker 1: need to know the good, the bad, the ugly. You're

715
00:37:26,036 --> 00:37:29,036
Speaker 1: reminding us that for some of us, we come from greatness,

716
00:37:29,116 --> 00:37:32,356
Speaker 1: meaning that you know, people have sacrificed on our behalf

717
00:37:32,436 --> 00:37:35,876
Speaker 1: to pave the way for others. And I just so

718
00:37:35,996 --> 00:37:39,116
Speaker 1: appreciate how much you are doing in that city and

719
00:37:39,236 --> 00:37:42,956
Speaker 1: for your community, and especially for those beautiful daughters of

720
00:37:42,996 --> 00:37:46,156
Speaker 1: yours and listen, and you're also you're also showing a

721
00:37:46,276 --> 00:37:50,276
Speaker 1: love for learning, which is infectious, and you know we're

722
00:37:50,276 --> 00:37:52,196
Speaker 1: feeling it, and I think you know everyone else who

723
00:37:52,276 --> 00:37:55,196
Speaker 1: is listening to you is as well. Thank you, all right,

724
00:37:55,196 --> 00:37:57,436
Speaker 1: thank you very much. I was humbled when I got

725
00:37:57,436 --> 00:37:59,996
Speaker 1: the request. I really, I really am. I appreciate both

726
00:37:59,996 --> 00:38:02,196
Speaker 1: of you guys in the work that you're doing, the

727
00:38:02,516 --> 00:38:05,796
Speaker 1: legacy you both carries. Like I say, I still think

728
00:38:05,836 --> 00:38:08,036
Speaker 1: being sort of host, being a high dog, he said,

729
00:38:08,036 --> 00:38:11,076
Speaker 1: at least ten books, I definitely do. Now now now,

730
00:38:11,116 --> 00:38:13,436
Speaker 1: after this show, one hundred percent or you're a hot dog.

731
00:38:13,516 --> 00:38:16,196
Speaker 1: Thank you guys. Hey man, you're now one of our

732
00:38:16,236 --> 00:38:18,596
Speaker 1: best friends, so I hope you'll you'll come back and

733
00:38:18,676 --> 00:38:21,516
Speaker 1: join us at some point again. All right, man, thank you,

734
00:38:21,796 --> 00:38:34,356
Speaker 1: thank you. Khalil talking Adela, it's like those Russian nesting dolls.

735
00:38:34,396 --> 00:38:36,596
Speaker 1: You know, you open one and there's one bit of history,

736
00:38:36,996 --> 00:38:39,836
Speaker 1: and then like you find out that story has eleven

737
00:38:39,836 --> 00:38:42,836
Speaker 1: other stories inside of it. Yeah, well that's I think

738
00:38:42,876 --> 00:38:46,676
Speaker 1: that's part of the beauty of studying a place, is

739
00:38:46,716 --> 00:38:50,636
Speaker 1: that in real time, histories are complicated. Places are complicated,

740
00:38:50,636 --> 00:38:53,356
Speaker 1: and the people who make our lives meaningful to us

741
00:38:53,356 --> 00:38:56,436
Speaker 1: are also complicated. And yeah, and I think that's what

742
00:38:56,516 --> 00:38:58,596
Speaker 1: we want to impart even in this conversation that we

743
00:38:58,676 --> 00:39:01,716
Speaker 1: have every week, thank god, And just like even thinking

744
00:39:01,796 --> 00:39:04,796
Speaker 1: now that he has committed all of this to memory,

745
00:39:05,076 --> 00:39:07,316
Speaker 1: you know that this is all sort of in his

746
00:39:07,396 --> 00:39:10,556
Speaker 1: head and he's telling these different histories. It's like it's

747
00:39:10,596 --> 00:39:15,276
Speaker 1: so incredibly impressive and powerful. It's impressive and powerful, but

748
00:39:15,316 --> 00:39:19,716
Speaker 1: it also speaks to a bigger moment in time. I mean,

749
00:39:19,756 --> 00:39:24,476
Speaker 1: in an age of misinformation, he's still fact checking and

750
00:39:24,556 --> 00:39:27,156
Speaker 1: doing research. He's still looking at books, he's still going

751
00:39:27,196 --> 00:39:30,756
Speaker 1: to the library. And I know, for me, it's really

752
00:39:30,796 --> 00:39:35,396
Speaker 1: important that people take facts seriously. And I think he's

753
00:39:35,436 --> 00:39:38,956
Speaker 1: modeling for everybody, even in the age of misinformation and

754
00:39:38,996 --> 00:39:43,596
Speaker 1: social media, how important it is to be grounded in

755
00:39:44,116 --> 00:39:47,356
Speaker 1: facts and evidence and to really see history as as

756
00:39:47,396 --> 00:39:50,276
Speaker 1: a source of empowerment for everyone. That's a great point

757
00:39:50,316 --> 00:39:53,916
Speaker 1: that even though this is essentially online and that even

758
00:39:53,956 --> 00:39:57,516
Speaker 1: if it's oral, that it is based in in fact,

759
00:39:58,196 --> 00:40:00,596
Speaker 1: and you're saying that, like want to I want to

760
00:40:00,596 --> 00:40:04,116
Speaker 1: ask you this, like, does the way that Dilla sees

761
00:40:04,196 --> 00:40:08,516
Speaker 1: the positive in a history and raises the positive above

762
00:40:08,556 --> 00:40:11,156
Speaker 1: all else, does it change at all how you think

763
00:40:11,196 --> 00:40:15,476
Speaker 1: you want to tell history. No, it doesn't, meaning that

764
00:40:15,596 --> 00:40:19,476
Speaker 1: I don't see my histories as as negative. I see

765
00:40:19,476 --> 00:40:23,436
Speaker 1: them as essential. And to Dylla's credit, I think some

766
00:40:23,476 --> 00:40:26,356
Speaker 1: of the stories that he's telling on TikTok is also

767
00:40:26,516 --> 00:40:29,276
Speaker 1: about the lives of people who have been killed in

768
00:40:29,516 --> 00:40:34,196
Speaker 1: gang violence or random by standard violence, and I think

769
00:40:34,596 --> 00:40:38,116
Speaker 1: giving those people a history of their own personal lives,

770
00:40:38,116 --> 00:40:40,716
Speaker 1: a biography, a story of who they are, is not

771
00:40:40,836 --> 00:40:43,996
Speaker 1: necessarily an uplifting story, but it is a story that

772
00:40:44,156 --> 00:40:47,556
Speaker 1: is important to give more dimension to the context of

773
00:40:47,596 --> 00:40:50,636
Speaker 1: people's lives. Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I'm

774
00:40:50,796 --> 00:40:53,996
Speaker 1: like that as well, that I sort of get lost

775
00:40:54,036 --> 00:40:56,836
Speaker 1: in the complexity of things. And you know, he talks

776
00:40:56,876 --> 00:41:03,436
Speaker 1: about the structural bullshit, you know, to tell those stories,

777
00:41:03,436 --> 00:41:06,356
Speaker 1: but to also show that their effects are not the

778
00:41:06,396 --> 00:41:09,676
Speaker 1: totality of experience. I almost come to this same point,

779
00:41:09,756 --> 00:41:12,236
Speaker 1: but from the opposite side, you know, and meet him

780
00:41:12,276 --> 00:41:15,596
Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle. I'm certainly like moved by him,

781
00:41:15,676 --> 00:41:17,956
Speaker 1: Like I really, I really do listen to him because

782
00:41:17,996 --> 00:41:21,956
Speaker 1: it makes me. It makes me feel better about my home. Yeah.

783
00:41:22,036 --> 00:41:25,196
Speaker 1: And look, not for nothing the fact that he's telling

784
00:41:25,196 --> 00:41:29,116
Speaker 1: these stories, which many of which are uncovered and unheard

785
00:41:29,156 --> 00:41:32,276
Speaker 1: of or buried in a book somewhere. This is not

786
00:41:32,356 --> 00:41:35,636
Speaker 1: just the story of how the first skyscraper in Chicago

787
00:41:35,676 --> 00:41:38,996
Speaker 1: was built. That's important. He's adding so much more context

788
00:41:38,996 --> 00:41:42,156
Speaker 1: to a very complicated city and we all should be

789
00:41:42,196 --> 00:41:44,756
Speaker 1: grateful for that. And I'm grateful that he is now

790
00:41:44,796 --> 00:41:50,156
Speaker 1: going to include us in that history so well. Khalil

791
00:41:50,756 --> 00:41:53,156
Speaker 1: love you, Yeah, man, I love you too, And I'm

792
00:41:53,196 --> 00:42:00,916
Speaker 1: grateful for you, all right, I'm grateful for you. Some

793
00:42:01,076 --> 00:42:04,396
Speaker 1: of My Best Friends Are is a production of Pushkin Industries.

794
00:42:04,716 --> 00:42:08,036
Speaker 1: The show is written and hosted by me Khalil, Gibron Mohammed,

795
00:42:08,156 --> 00:42:11,236
Speaker 1: and my best friend Ben Austin. It's produced by John

796
00:42:11,236 --> 00:42:15,916
Speaker 1: Asante and Lucy Sullivan. Our editor is Jasmine Morris, our

797
00:42:15,956 --> 00:42:19,756
Speaker 1: engineer is Amanda Kwan, and our executive producer is Mia

798
00:42:19,836 --> 00:42:24,956
Speaker 1: LaBelle at Pushkin thanks to Leta Mulad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine,

799
00:42:25,356 --> 00:42:30,796
Speaker 1: Carl Migliori, John Schnars, Retta Kone, and Jacob Weisberg. Our

800
00:42:30,876 --> 00:42:34,916
Speaker 1: theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow Chicagoan the brilliant

801
00:42:34,996 --> 00:42:38,596
Speaker 1: Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman. You definitely want

802
00:42:38,596 --> 00:42:41,116
Speaker 1: to check out his music at his website Avery R.

803
00:42:41,236 --> 00:42:44,356
Speaker 1: Young dot com. You can find Pushkin on all social

804
00:42:44,356 --> 00:42:47,556
Speaker 1: platforms at pushkin pods and you can sign up for

805
00:42:47,556 --> 00:42:51,796
Speaker 1: our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts,

806
00:42:52,156 --> 00:42:56,236
Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

807
00:42:56,276 --> 00:42:58,876
Speaker 1: like to listen. And if you like our show, please

808
00:42:58,916 --> 00:43:01,716
Speaker 1: give us a five star rating and a review and listen.

809
00:43:01,716 --> 00:43:03,116
Speaker 1: Even if you don't like it, give it a five

810
00:43:03,116 --> 00:43:06,076
Speaker 1: star rating and a review, and please tell all of

811
00:43:06,116 --> 00:43:09,356
Speaker 1: your best friends about it. Thank you and listen. Also,

812
00:43:09,436 --> 00:43:11,796
Speaker 1: Odilla a hot dog, you know, for for being on

813
00:43:11,796 --> 00:43:13,796
Speaker 1: the show, and just because I want to. I want

814
00:43:13,796 --> 00:43:16,596
Speaker 1: to tell him how much I appreciate him, and you know,

815
00:43:16,636 --> 00:43:18,476
Speaker 1: in the same way that he shouted out my book,

816
00:43:18,796 --> 00:43:20,756
Speaker 1: I want to give him a shout out that everyone

817
00:43:20,796 --> 00:43:23,796
Speaker 1: should go and follow him. You know. On Instagram, on

818
00:43:23,876 --> 00:43:29,956
Speaker 1: Twitter TikTok his handle is six figure Underscore Villa at

819
00:43:30,076 --> 00:43:35,396
Speaker 1: six figg a underscore d I L LA. It's music

820
00:43:35,476 --> 00:43:47,276
Speaker 1: even to say six figure dilla