WEBVTT - Trump Facing Criminal Charges and a Lawsuit by NAACP 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:08.200 The mom that stormed the capital, carried Confederate flags and 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:12.559 white supremacist banners, wore clothing with racist language and neo 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:16.280 Nazi symbols, and hum the noose on a makeshift gallows. 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:20.040 So the N Double a CP looked back in history 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:23.320 one fifty years ago too, when the Ku Klux Klan 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:27.360 was terrorizing blacks in the South. And this week the 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.840 N Double a CP filed a suit against former President 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:34.520 Donald Trump, Rudy Giuliani, the Proud Boys, and the Oath 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:39.080 Keepers for conspiring to incite the January sixth Capital riot 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.680 in violation of the eighteen seventy one Ku Klux Klan 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:47.120 Act enacted to combat the KKK. The suit was filed 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:51.120 on behalf of Democratic Representative Bennie Thompson of Mississippi, who 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:56.920 spoke to MSNBC that Ku Klux Klan UH law was 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:01.400 basically put on the books to protect Southerners, that other 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:05.319 people from the clan who didn't want this great country 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.800 of ours to survive, but thank goodness and did. And 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:12.600 now here we come full circle, uh with this plan 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:16.600 like activity. Joining me is Harold Crant, professor at the 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:19.679 Chicago Kent College of Law. I'll tell us about the 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:22.560 history of this law. The Kukus Plan Acts were passed 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:25.680 in the wake of the reconstruction as a means of 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:29.520 trying to ensure the newly freed slaves their ability to 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:33.119 enjoy the protection rights, and particularly the right to vote. 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:37.160 Individuals are being intimidated from voting, and indeed federal officials 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.360 are being intimidated from trying to ensure the vote to 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:44.160 the newly freed slaves. So Congress stepped in to impose 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:46.520 both criminal penalties on those who interfere with the right 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:48.880 to vote, as well as a civil right of action. 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:54.680 So now this has been used rarely, so rarely litigated. 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:58.360 Are there open questions about it? They're very open questions. 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:01.600 I mean to look at it. Historically, the discipline of 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.600 the act was the criminal penalties, and the criminal penalties 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:07.800 were used thousands of times by the Grant administration in 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:10.160 order to break the back of the k k K 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:13.600 and it was remarkably successful in doing so. But the 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:18.799 civil aspects of the statutes lay dormant for hundred years 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:22.359 until they were used very successfully in the nineteen eighties 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:25.240 when the clan was accused of trying to disrupt an 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:29.040 individual's ability to vote. So the key question is can 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:33.200 a public official use it as a civil means to 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:36.640 get remedies for injuries he sustained, And that's the claim 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:40.520 by Representative Thompson, to my knowledge, has never been used 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:44.920 by a public official. Certainly, the actions are prohibited by 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.920 the statute, but the question is whether that's nearly left 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:51.160 over from a criminal penalty, or whether it gives a 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.400 right to a public official to sue for injuries that 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.600 he or she received. And what about the hurdle of 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:00.800 a president being immune from civil laws suits for acts 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:05.760 in his official capacity. The Supreme Court in Nixon versus 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:10.480 Fitzgerald held that the president is absolutely immune from civil 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:14.440 suits for any actions during his administration. So this lawsuit 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:18.320 will have to prove that Trump was acting not in 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.160 his official capacity but in his personal capacity when he 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:27.239 allegedly conspired in the events of January six. The plaintiest 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:31.480 anticipated that hurdle and alleged that Trump acted beyond the 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:35.680 outer perimeter of his official duties and therefore is susceptible 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:39.160 to suit in his personal capacity. It's going to be 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:44.560 extremely difficult for the lawsuit to prevail against President Trump 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:47.360 on that ground. A very similar argument was made in 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:51.960 Fitzgerald versus Nixon itself. The allegation there was that Nixon 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:55.560 had Fitzgerald fired. He was a management analyst for the 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.640 Air Force and he had reported on cost overruns which 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:02.560 embarrassed the administration. He was fired and then sued Nixon 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:07.120 after Nixon's term in office was over, and as in 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.280 this case, he said, look, you took personal vendet against me, 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.920 and by firing me, you acted outside your official responsibilities. 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.240 I should be able to sue you. And the Supreme 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:21.800 Court brushed that aside and said, if we took any 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:25.400 kind of allegations of unlawful behavior against the president, his 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:29.720 official community would be chipped away too extensively. And so 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.440 I think they'll be very demanding in terms of the 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:38.720 showing required to remove a president's absolute immunity from civil suits. 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:42.800 In the defamation lawsuit by a New York advice columnist 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:47.880 e Jene Carroll against Trump, the judge said that this 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:50.600 wasn't part of his official duty, so the lawsuit could 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.480 go on. Do you think that that was an incorrect decision? Then? 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.200 I think that is a tough decision, and I think 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:01.400 it may not hold up on appeal. Particularly lawsuit. The 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:04.480 response was an official if I read McCall correctly, at 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:09.320 an official press conference, and he was responding to questions 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.920 about the lawsuit and the situation. So to be difficult, 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:16.760 I think, to show that when you're responding to a 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:20.039 question at a White House press conference that you're not 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:23.440 acting within the outer perimeter of your job. Now, the 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.640 Supreme Court made up these rules in terms of absolute community, 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:30.200 so it is theoretically possible that the Supreme Court will 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:35.520 we consider the scope of Fitzgerald case and decide to 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:40.400 limit the kinds of immunities that a president may enjoy. 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.120 But I'm skeptical and I think that both of these 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.600 lawsuits will have a hard time against President Trump himself. Now, 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:49.800 President Trump is not immune from criminal conduct, speaking of 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:55.520 tough evidentially burdens. This lawsuit alleges a conspiracy that Trump 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:59.880 and Juliani and the Proud Boys and Oathkeepers acted in 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:04.000 concert to incite and then carry out the Capital insurrection. 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.839 So not only are there issues about who can be 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:12.320 sued and who can sue under the Ku klux Clian Act, 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.919 but the very conspiracy itself will be difficult to prove. 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:19.479 To show that there was an active agreement amongst the 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:24.520 Proud Boys, the Oathkeepers, Giuliani and Trump somewhat defied I 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:27.520 think credibility. But I think that one of the points 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:30.159 here in the lawsuit, besides the symbolism of using the 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:33.520 ku klux Clian Act, is to put the Proud Boys 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:36.680 in the Oathkeepers on the defensive. They will have to 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:42.279 spend money, and if this case continues, they'll be subject 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:46.039 to depositions and discovery, and so a great deal of 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:51.040 information may being covered, even if ultimately will prove too 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:55.520 difficult to show a conspiracy. So there's a political aspect 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:59.480 to this lawsuit as well as illegal. It's a very 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.479 important critical aspect. Right, we have the symbolism of using 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:09.240 the Act, we have the threat of financial harm imposed 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.280 upon the oath Keepers and probablys were probably not flush 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:16.360 with cash. Um. The same thing is true with the lawsuits. 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:19.280 Will be many lawsuits against Giuliani and how much money 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:22.560 does does he have? And at the same time we 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:27.360 may find out that there were discussions and maybe there 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.480 was a conspiracy, right, we don't know, um. And but 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:36.200 the idea of discovery is to get at phone calls, emails, 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.200 Facebook messages that may suggest that there was more co 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:43.880 ordination than we've been led to believe. I haven't scoured 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:45.720 the books, but I would think that this is really 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.600 Possibly it's to get into federal court, but possibly the 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:53.240 use of the Klux clan statue is really symbolic, and 0:07:53.360 --> 0:08:00.880 that if Congressman Thompson had simply sued for toward injury 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:04.800 that he received, it would not be the same kind 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:10.160 of press not be the same kind of overarching inquiry 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:12.400 into what happened that day. So I think this raises 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:15.320 the stakes, that raises the visibility of the lawsuit as 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:18.240 opposed to a personal injury suit. I should say, the 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:21.720 leader of the Proud Boys has said that there was 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:23.840 no plan to go to the capital, that though there 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:27.200 were Proud Boys there, there was no actual plan to 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.280 go to the capital. So Trump, so when his his 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:35.720 spokesman responded, did not mention the immunity from civil suit. Instead, 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:39.600 he said that Trump did not incite or conspire to 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:43.400 incite any violence at the Capitol. Seems odd that they 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:49.120 didn't mention immunity from lawsuits. Well, I read that, and 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.880 and my take on it is simply that he wants 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:58.000 to repeat what the defense was before the Senate and 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:01.600 the impeachment trial, that he he was exercising his First 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:05.360 Amendment rights, was proud of the support he was receiving 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:08.480 from the crowd in front of the White House, and 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:13.120 in no way inside it any kind of violence. Um. Obviously, 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:17.000 when it comes down to responding to this lawsuit, I 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:20.000 have a strong suspicion that he will rely upon presidential 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:24.760 community as well. An advantage of this suit that you 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:28.400 don't have in a criminal case is that there's a 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:32.200 lower burden for the plaintiffs, So explain the burden in 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:36.080 a civil suit. In a civil suit, the burden is 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:42.400 only a little over for the plaintiff to prevail, unlike 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.080 in a criminal suit when the state has to prove 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:50.680 beyond a reasonable doubt that the individual committed the covered offense. 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.680 And so it may be that in a close case, 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:58.319 and I would think that the Georgia cases you even 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:03.000 more difficult or Trump than the insurrection case. But then 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:06.160 in a close case, uh, Trump may lose in the 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:09.320 civil case even if you would prevail in a criminal case. 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:14.840 I was wondering if there are any jurisdictional problems. I 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:18.600 don't think so. I mean, I think the only I mean, look, 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.960 I don't know, but I just find it odd that 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:28.680 the statute that criminalizes interference with government officials allows the 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:32.800 government officials to sue for your individual damages. It just 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:36.960 seems that that was intended for a criminal prohibition as 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:42.280 opposed to for giving the governmental official a right to 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.240 sue for personal damages. But maybe it is, and that's 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.400 going to be a very difficult historical argument. But I 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:53.160 think the other kinds of jurisdictional issues should be relatively clear. 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:55.600 There were proud boys there, there were the oath keepers, 0:10:56.160 --> 0:11:00.360 both in the in d C. And there's no question 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:02.800 that at least some of them wanted to interfere with 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:07.280 the official tabulation of the of the votes. And that 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:11.040 does lie at the heart of the civil rights statute, 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.920 which are known as the Kukus clan at And so 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:17.320 it seems, as you refer to a big point of 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:20.960 this lawsuit, maybe to get more information, you know, the 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:25.959 house managers stopped short of having any witnesses or secupoenaing 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:32.320 any documents. So this might allow some discovery into what 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:37.880 really happened. Absolutely, even if President Trump is removed from 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:41.760 this case because of immunity, the case can continue and 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:47.880 with depositions, with discovery subpoenas of the planets may find 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:51.360 out a great deal more about who knew what, who 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:55.800 planned to do what on January six. And it seems 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:59.680 like the house managers have basically laid out the case 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:03.760 four of them. They can use all the different video 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:09.800 and audio and information that the house managers presented. Right, 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:11.920 there's a great deal of video and audio information that 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.439 are already in the public consciousness and public record because 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.160 we saw it during the impeachment trial. But we have 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:23.480 not seen again in terms of emails, we haven't seen 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:28.080 all the Facebook messages. We haven't seen um, we haven't 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:31.320 had depositions of some of the leaders of the both 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:34.959 Keepers and the Cowboys, and that information they supplement the 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:37.560 record and give us a different picture of what really 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.800 happened on January six. Some civil attorneys have been using 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:46.280 the KKK statute in recent years for defending people who 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.000 have been injured by hate groups, at least in the 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.360 lawsuit phase. So what does it say that basically the 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:56.600 statute that's been forgotten for so many years that it's 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:01.680 having to be used again. There are different avenues that 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:06.240 individuals can use who are injured in the riots at 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:09.400 the Capitol on January six. They don't have to just 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:14.439 rely upon the k K statute. There can be assault 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:20.440 and other kinds of claims for people who were um injured. Uh. 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.120 This is a powerful statute because it has attorney's feece 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:29.160 and other costs can be associated with it to be recovered. Um. 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:34.360 But I think it's again mostly being used because it 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:38.600 gives a federal right of action as opposed to a 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:43.199 state action that would otherwise be required for just a 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:47.400 a tort injury for instance, that happened due to the 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:51.640 rioters and lit the mayhem they caught. Thanks for being 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.840 on the Bloomberg Law Show. How that's Professor Harold Trent 0:13:55.040 --> 0:14:00.160 of Chicago Kent College of Law. Former President Donald m 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.240 faces a new legal threat from a prosecutor who was 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:07.160 just sworn into office. Last month. Fulton County District Attorney 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.359 Fannie Willis sent a letter to Tom Georgia state officials 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:14.360 informing them that her office is investigating whether illegal attempts 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:19.240 were made to influence the state's elections. This includes Trump's 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:23.560 now infamous January second call to Georgia's Secretary of State 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:27.040 asking him to change the States certified results of the 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:31.320 presidential election. So look, all I want to do is this, 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:39.160 I just want to find uh thousand seven eight votes, 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:42.440 which is one more that we have. You know what 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.800 they did and you're not reporting it. That's a you know, 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:48.960 that's a criminal that's a criminal offense, and you know 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:51.600 you can't let that happen. That's that's a big risk 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:55.040 to you and to Ryan. Joining me is Clark Cunningham, 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:58.240 a law professor at Georgia State University. Clark, in her 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.480 letter Willis says she's focused on a wide range of charges, 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:07.680 including solicitation of election fraud, false statements, conspiracy, and racketeering. 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:11.000 How would you characterize her investigation. I would say it's 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.880 a sweeping investigation at this stage, and what I've seen, 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.720 she's looking at more charges than the people involved in 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:19.480 the phone call. What I understand is she's looking at 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:23.640 Trump's phone call to Governor Kemp attempting to interfere with 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:27.320 the election through that phone call. She's looking at the 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.920 phone call the Trump made to the Attorney General Chris Carr, 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:34.880 attempting to interfere with him. Defending the State of Georgia 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:38.080 against the completely spurious lawsuits of the State of Texas 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.960 filed in the Supreme Court. She's looking at this phone 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.080 call to the Secretary of State that I imagine She's 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.360 also looking at other attempts that Trump made to pressure 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.200 or attimidate Sector of State Rassenberger. For example, he helped 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.080 the press conference on Thanksgiving and said that the Secretary 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:54.360 of State was the enemy of the people. I believe 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:56.960 she's looking at a phone call that Trump made directly 0:15:57.120 --> 0:15:59.400 to an official of the Georgia of your investigation, who 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.520 was conduct seem an election audit. And I believe she's 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.560 also and this is why she has sent a letter 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.920 to the Lieutenant Governor, because the Lieutenant Governor is the 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.640 presiding officer of the Georgia Senate. And she's looking at 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:15.800 statements that Giuliani made on behalf of Trump to this 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:19.720 Georgia legislature, particularly to the Senate, which have been described 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:23.800 as false and fraudulent statement. One charge mentioned is criminal 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:28.480 solicitation to commit election fraud. Describe what's required there and 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:32.880 how Trump's phone call might fit in. You know, Frankly, 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:34.840 that looks like it open and shut case to me. 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:38.080 We have the transcript, we have the actual recording of 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.120 the phone call. Trump has admitted that it's genuine, So 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:44.640 the facts are very clear. And so the crime is 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:48.320 that a person commits the offense when with intent that 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:52.640 another person engage in conduct constituting a felony under this article, 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.240 he or she solicits request commands, import tunes are otherwise 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.240 attempts to cause the other person to engage in such conduct. 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:01.960 So the question it is during that phone call, was 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:07.160 Trump trying soliciting, requesting, commanding, import tuning, or otherwise attempting 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:09.639 to cause the Secretary of State and his staff to 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.119 engage an election fraud? And then there are lots of 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:16.399 things that constitute election fraud, but altering certified vote results 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:20.480 would clearly be one of them. Let's discuss possible racketeering charges. 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:24.480 In her most famous case, Willis used Georgia's Rico law 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:28.399 to prosecute teachers and officials in a cheating scandal in 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:31.440 the Atlanta public school system, a place where you don't 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:35.960 usually expect racketeering charges. Yes, and I was living in 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:39.560 Atlanta at the time, and she secured a lot of 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:43.000 convictions under that theory that there was a criminal enterprise 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:47.600 to bribe teachers or threatened teachers to change and great. 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.560 So she's very familiar with the Georgia recetarian statutes. She 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:54.040 secured a lot of convictions. It was controversial. Some people 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:57.120 thought that the prosecution was overzealous, but that has nothing 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:58.680 to do with as far as I know, whether or 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:03.000 not racketeering was appropriate. How would Georgia's racketeering law fit 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:07.040 in with this case. So the key to to the 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:11.240 statute are the definition sections, because the elements of a 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:14.640 racketeering prosecution is that there has to be an enterprise, 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:21.480 and an enterprise can be pretty much anything that is engaged, 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:25.320 can be a person, a partnership, trust, the union. Certainly, 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:28.800 the Trump campaign is an enterprise that engages in at 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.320 least two acts of what's called racketeering activity. And if 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:35.520 the enterprises engages in at least two acts of racketeering 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:39.440 activity within the time frame, then you have a racketariing game. 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:41.880 So they need at least two events, not just one. 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:46.119 And then the definition of racketeering activity includes committing or 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:49.280 attempts to commit a violation of a number of Georgia statutes. 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.400 And the one that I assume that she's particularly interested 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:55.800 in is the false statement statute that I refer to 0:18:55.840 --> 0:19:00.280 a moment ago um that it's a fility for person 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.639 knowingly and willfully to make a false, ffication, fictitious or 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:07.639 a fraudulan statement within the jurisdiction of any department, agency, 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.919 and state government. So that would apply to any false 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:14.280 statements at Trump or anybody who was an effect part 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:18.320 of his campaign at enterprise made to the governor. That's 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:21.560 Attorney General Lindy Graham in effect could be part of 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:23.840 that enterprise. So it can include any of any of 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:26.760 any of the statements that were made by them to 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:31.000 achieve the purpose of the of the rack of the enterprise, 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:33.960 and the purpose of the enterprise was too keith Donald 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:38.120 Trump in office without it. That was a possible defense 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:41.720 of Trump's could be I didn't have the intent to 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.920 commit a crime. Here, he could say, I didn't want 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:49.320 the records to be falsified. I wanted them to be corrected. Well, 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:52.040 you could say whatever he wants to say, but I've 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.199 read through this transcript the number of times his intent 0:19:55.440 --> 0:20:00.040 is crystal clear, and his intent is to solicit the 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:04.480 Secretary of State to change the certified election results by 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:08.119 enough votes so the margin of victory shifts to him, 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:11.720 and he says that over and over and over again 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:16.280 in that meeting. But that's what he wants to achieve, um. 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:20.840 And there's no good defense for that statement that he 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:23.119 makes over and over and over again. First of all, 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:25.159 of course, the president the United States should not be 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:29.280 getting on the phone with the state election officials anyway. Right. 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.000 But if he got on the phone with the Secretary 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:34.760 of State and said, I understand you did an audit 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:38.560 of signature matching on absidentee ballots in Cobb County, I'm 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:41.520 calling to ask you to also do that in Fulton County, 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.240 all right, that would be something different, and of course 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:48.520 the president would have to live with whatever the result 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:52.280 of that audit was just like a recounts. Nothing wrong 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:54.840 with asking for a recount, but you can't ask for 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:59.639 recount and say recount until you get eleven votes from 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:03.560 me and then stop the recount. Um. And so that 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:06.760 was that was the entire strategy of this phone call. 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:10.639 And I've looked at it now again he's simply dealing 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.120 with it, apparently the way he deals to almost everything 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:18.040 UM as a kind of transactional negotiations. Right. So he 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:22.119 starts off with Folston inflated statements that he had hundreds 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:24.320 of thousand, he went by hundreds of thousands of votes, 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:29.800 And he makes a number of very factual statements, right. Um, 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:34.960 you know, he says, Um, there were four thousand, five 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:38.640 hundred and two voters who weren't on the voter registration role. 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:44.480 There were eighteen thousand and three hundred voters where their 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:48.240 addressed was a vacant house. There were nine hundred four 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:52.040 voters who only had a post office box. Um, there 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:56.360 were four thousand, nine hundred twenty five ballots from out 0:21:56.400 --> 0:22:01.200 of state voters. There were two thousand, three and twenty 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:04.800 six ballots absently, ballots that stake of Christ. Those are 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:09.159 very very precise numbers. So those are factual statements. And 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:12.960 if they're false, then there's a statute that says that 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:15.800 it is a crime to willingly knowingly make a false 0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:21.440 statement to the government agency. Now it would probably it 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:24.680 would be for the jury to determine whether he knew 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:27.879 that those statements were false. But factually, I don't think 0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:30.960 there's any questions but their faults and he wasn't saying, 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:35.080 in my opinion, you know, the election was not handled well. 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:39.080 He's making very very specific factual statements. And then he says, 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:42.399 add all these facts up, add all these different facts 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:45.240 which I asserved to be true, and you've gotten a 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:49.520 lot more than eleven thousand votes that should have been 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:53.159 cast for me. And then it's perfectly clear. He says, Okay, 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:58.960 now that I've made the case that actually factually there 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:02.440 there are in his hundreds of thousands of votes for him. 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:09.080 Then he basically says, but let's make a deal, right, Um, okay, 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:13.320 and he says that over and over again. UM. So 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:20.160 he begins, here's the line that's the clearest solicitation. Um. 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:23.879 And it's interesting how he he blends threats with this. 0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:27.359 So he says, we have won this election in Georgia 0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:30.000 based on all of this, and there's nothing wrong with 0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:32.919 saying that. Brady's referring to the Secretary of States, you know, 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:35.800 I mean having the correct and then he stops and 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:39.200 he makes a threat. The people of Georgia are angry, 0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:41.560 and these numbers are going to be repeated on Monday night. 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:44.520 That's when he was coming into for big rally along 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:46.400 with others that we're going to have by that time, 0:23:46.400 --> 0:23:49.240 which you're much more substantial even and the people of 0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:51.840 Georgia are angry. The people of the country are angry. 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:56.680 So makes the threat. And then here's the solicitation for fraud. 0:23:57.200 --> 0:24:03.000 And there's nothing wrong with saying, you know that you've recalculate, okay. 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:05.359 And then he said, even if you cut him in half, 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:07.120 cut him in half, and cut him in half again, 0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:11.200 it's more votes than we need. So and then over 0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:14.960 and over again he says, take my deal. All I 0:24:15.080 --> 0:24:19.440 need is eleven thousand votes, right, And he says that 0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:22.560 over and over again. The enterprise and the purpose of 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:26.639 the enterprise was too keith Donald Trump in office without 0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:29.840 it that she's going to look into apparently, also the 0:24:29.880 --> 0:24:33.920 abrupt resignation of the U. S. Attorney for Northern Georgia. 0:24:34.680 --> 0:24:39.359 How does that fit within her her view? It seems 0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:42.159 to me that certainly if I were and I'm not 0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:45.920 prosecuting the case, I'm just an academic. But it's if 0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:50.040 I were prosecuting the case, I would layout what seems 0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:53.560 to be a pretty clear narrative um and it's it's 0:24:53.560 --> 0:24:57.320 a it's a plan that apparently Rudy Giulietti developed for 0:24:57.520 --> 0:25:02.000 Trump for how to uh get packed the fact that 0:25:02.040 --> 0:25:06.320 Trump lost the popular vote um, and so plan one, 0:25:07.000 --> 0:25:12.200 right um, was to sort directly try to change the 0:25:12.320 --> 0:25:15.760 vote through this these kinds of political pressure. Plan two 0:25:16.400 --> 0:25:20.000 was to prevent in in the swing states the votes 0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:23.440 from being certified by the safe Harvard date in early December, 0:25:23.640 --> 0:25:27.280 so that an argument could be made that because the 0:25:27.359 --> 0:25:31.840 votes were not certified by that date, it's then reverted 0:25:31.880 --> 0:25:35.560 to the state legislature to step in and appoint display 0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:38.680