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Speaker 1: Pushkin. I've been a journalist for twenty five years, and

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Speaker 1: there's this little ritual that I do at the end

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Speaker 1: of every interview. When it works, it shakes everything up,

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Speaker 1: creates a bit of chaos. I call it the hail

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Speaker 1: Mary of questions. It's like a last ditch effort to

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Speaker 1: find something, anything that I might have missed. I just say, hey,

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Speaker 1: what's a question I should have asked you. Most of

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Speaker 1: the time, like ninety percent of the time, the answer

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Speaker 1: is I don't know. I think we covered it all.

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Speaker 1: But every once in a while a person says, well,

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Speaker 1: there is one thing we didn't talk about, and then

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Speaker 1: they drop a bomb, say something totally unexpected, And at

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Speaker 1: that moment I always imagine a door creaking open. That,

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Speaker 1: in a nutshell, is what this season is about. It's

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Speaker 1: about a guy, two guys actually, who come upon just

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Speaker 1: such a door, and on the other side of it

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Speaker 1: is a very dark secret. These two guys were federal officers.

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Speaker 1: One of them was an FBI agent based in Delaware

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Speaker 1: named Scott Duffy and Scott he has his own version

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Speaker 1: of the hail Mary question.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that like I will routinely do,

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Speaker 2: is is there anything that we should be looking at

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Speaker 2: that could be investigated that we're not looking at.

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Speaker 1: Back in two thousand and four, Scott posed this very

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Speaker 1: question to a woman named Patricia Miller. At the time,

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Speaker 1: Scott was visiting Patricia at her home in Delaware to

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Speaker 1: learn more about her ex boyfriend, a guy named Tom Guybison.

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Speaker 1: There had been some rumors that Tom, her ex, was

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Speaker 1: plotting to go after a local cop, and the FBI

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Speaker 1: had asked Scott to look into this to do a

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Speaker 1: so called threat assessment. Scott didn't get that much out

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Speaker 1: of this interview with Patricia, but before leaving, he tossed

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Speaker 1: out his hal Mary question, and that's when she told

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Speaker 1: him about the murder.

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Speaker 2: She mentions, well, there is this alleged murder to have

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Speaker 2: taken place, that when he was in high school, that

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Speaker 2: he had committed a murder for black man in order

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Speaker 2: to gain access into this white supremacy group within Delaware.

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Speaker 1: Patricia goes on to say that Tom, her ex, was

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Speaker 1: proud of this murder. It happened back when he was younger,

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Speaker 1: a teenager, but even years later he bragged about what

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Speaker 1: he does, how he'd driven into Philadelphia late at night

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Speaker 1: and shot a pedestrian, a random black man, all allegedly

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Speaker 1: so we could earn some street cred as a racist skinhead.

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Speaker 1: Scott pressed Patricia for details. Was there any evidence? Did

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Speaker 1: she have any proof? According to Scott, she talked about

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Speaker 1: a newspaper article from the time about the man's death

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Speaker 1: and how it was described as a drug related killing.

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Speaker 1: She said that Tom held onto this article for a

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Speaker 1: while so we could brag about it, intimating no one knows,

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Speaker 1: but I did this. I killed this guy. That's what

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Speaker 1: Patricia said. Anyhow, all of this got Scott thinking, if

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Speaker 1: this murder really happened, maybe it wasn't so random after all.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it was predicated on a callous, cynical piece of

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Speaker 1: logic that no one would care about this victim, or

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Speaker 1: at least no one in a position of power or authority.

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Speaker 2: If there's no evidence, and there's no witnesses, no cameras,

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Speaker 2: so let's move on, and that's what Tom would be

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Speaker 2: banking on, and just be a drug deal gone back.

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Speaker 2: That bothered me, That bothered me.

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Speaker 1: Scott may have been upset about all this, but he

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Speaker 1: was also at a loss. How do you investigate a

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Speaker 1: murder when you don't even know who the victim is. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: Scott and his partner paid a visit to the Free

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Speaker 1: Public Library of Philadelphia. They wanted to find that newspaper

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Speaker 1: article covering the victim's death. Scott recalled Patricia saying it

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Speaker 1: was in the Philadelphia Inquirer. They felt like if they

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Speaker 1: could just somehow get a hold of that article, it

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Speaker 1: might answer so many questions.

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Speaker 2: In other words, would this give us a name? Would

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Speaker 2: this give us a location? Would this give us a date?

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Speaker 2: Because we still didn't have a date.

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Speaker 1: But there's got to be countless articles people that were

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Speaker 1: just randomly killed in Philadelphia.

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Speaker 2: Not only countless articles, but then you realize there are

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Speaker 2: other newspapers. What if she's wrong, it's not the Philadelphia Inquiry.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like a fool's Errand I'm glad we did it.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad we made the trip, but I don't think

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Speaker 2: we found anything. Nothing.

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Speaker 1: So game over right. I mean, this murder, if it

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Speaker 1: even happened, would have occurred approximately fifteen years prior. It

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Speaker 1: was a cold case. And yet Scott and his partner,

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Speaker 1: a guy named Terry Mortimer, they had this feeling that

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Speaker 1: if they persisted.

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Speaker 2: We might uncover something. Were destined to uncover. That may

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Speaker 2: sound corny, but I felt something. I think Terry felt something,

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Speaker 2: and we didn't know quite what, and it could have

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Speaker 2: been absolutely taking us down another rabbit hole of something

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Speaker 2: that's just never could be proven.

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Speaker 1: So what do you do with that?

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Speaker 2: Exactly? What do you do with that? What do you

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Speaker 2: do with something that's.

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Speaker 1: Yeah and not to be cute, but you can't exactly

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Speaker 1: go back to your boss and say that me and

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Speaker 1: Terry feel a sense of destiny here right now. So

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Speaker 1: this was mission creep big time. Plus, it's not like

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Speaker 1: there was anyone that they knew of anyhow demanding justice

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Speaker 1: for the victim.

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Speaker 2: Terry and I could have easily said we're done and

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Speaker 2: let's walk away. Nobody's going to be calling us to say, hey,

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Speaker 2: Terry and Scott, do you have any updates for us?

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Speaker 2: You know we're waiting. We haven't heard back from you

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Speaker 2: that was missing.

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Speaker 1: But is somewhere in the back of your head, are

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Speaker 1: you imagining that, like there is a mother or brother

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Speaker 1: who's trying to understand or figure out what may have

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Speaker 1: happened to their loved one that was left for dead.

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Speaker 2: I think that that aspect was the driving factor we

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Speaker 2: couldn't just leave it alone. Somehow it was making sense

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Speaker 2: that Terry and I were put together for this very

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Speaker 2: reason of solving this hate crime, this murder that took

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Speaker 2: place on the streets of Philadelphia because somebody was black,

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Speaker 2: that we've felt like we had a duty to this person,

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Speaker 2: and somehow this person was drawing us.

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Speaker 1: And that's it. You can almost hear it, the door

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Speaker 1: creaking open. This is a story about what happens when

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Speaker 1: two guys uncover a clue about something terrible, something evil,

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Speaker 1: a crime for which there has been no justice, and

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Speaker 1: they have nothing to go on. They don't have a victim,

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Speaker 1: don't have a body, don't even have a name. I'm

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Speaker 1: Jake Halper and this is Deep Cover, Season four, The

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Speaker 1: Nameless Man, Episode one. The rumor, so to recap, Scott

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Speaker 1: and Terry's investigation did not start off as a quest

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Speaker 1: to sell the cold case now or find a murder victim. Originally,

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Speaker 1: back in two thousand and four, they were asked to

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Speaker 1: do a threat assessment on Tom Gybison. That's why they

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Speaker 1: interviewed the ex girlfriend. At the time, Tom Gobison was

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Speaker 1: thirty three years old. He was in federal prison on

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Speaker 1: gun charges, but he was about to be released, and

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Speaker 1: the FEDS had some intel that Tom might be seeking retribution,

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Speaker 1: planning to harm the cop who'd put him behind bars.

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Speaker 1: This is why the FEDS were called in, and initially

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Speaker 1: this was Scott and Terry's top priority to determine if

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Speaker 1: this threat was real. But they came up short and

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Speaker 1: at some point stopped looking into Tom for the threat assessment.

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Speaker 1: But they still have this rumor, this side story that

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Speaker 1: some fifteen years prior, back in the nineteen eighties, when

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Speaker 1: Tom was still in high school, that he may have

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Speaker 1: killed a black man in Philadelphia. Who this this man

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Speaker 1: might be. They had no idea, but they kept poking around.

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Speaker 1: They wanted to see what they could learn about Tom

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Speaker 1: Guybison and if he had any connections to white supremacist gangs.

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Speaker 1: And this is where Terry Mortimer, Scott's partner, really came

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Speaker 1: into play.

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Speaker 3: And this is the thing about gangs is there are gangs,

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Speaker 3: and there's like, you know, not real gangs that people

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Speaker 3: say they're part of a gang, but they aren't. Kind

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Speaker 3: of thing.

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Speaker 1: Terry was a special agent with the ATF the Bureau

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Speaker 1: of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. He worked in intelligence,

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Speaker 1: and he focused heavily on guns and gangs. So Terry

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Speaker 1: wanted to know what was Tom's deal.

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Speaker 3: I knew he of course was imprisoned obviously for gun charges.

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Speaker 3: You know, spent a good stint in prison federally he

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Speaker 3: had I guess prior contact with the law.

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Speaker 1: Terry learned that Tom was first to rested at the

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Speaker 1: age of fourteen on a deadly weapons charge. A few

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Speaker 1: years later, when he was nineteen, he was convicted of

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Speaker 1: reckless endangerment after he shot a gun at a moving

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Speaker 1: car full of people. At the time, a local newspaper

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Speaker 1: in Wilmington, Delaware ran an article on Tom. It described

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Speaker 1: him as a hulking weightlifter with a number of tattoos,

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Speaker 1: including a clenched fist on the top of his scalp

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Speaker 1: and the words born in the USA on the back

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Speaker 1: of his neck. In the article, Guybison says at one

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Speaker 1: time he was a blue collar skinhead. Tom defined this

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Speaker 1: as quote buying American, not doing drugs, and not drinking.

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Speaker 1: To be clear, there are different types of skinheads, not

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Speaker 1: all are racists, but in the late eighties and early nineties,

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Speaker 1: skinheads were emerging as the face of violent right wing

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Speaker 1: nationalism in the US. Their notoriety seemed to really peak

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Speaker 1: at that time. One headline from eighty nine and the

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Speaker 1: New York Times read violent racism attracts new breed skinheads.

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Speaker 1: So the possibility that a racist skinhead might have orchestrated

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Speaker 1: murder it was plausible, but that alone wasn't a whole

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Speaker 1: lot to go on. Scott and Terry decided to focus

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Speaker 1: on what Patricia, the ex girlfriend, had told them. They

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Speaker 1: honed in on two clues in particular. The first clue

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Speaker 1: involved a tattoo. Patricia mentioned that Tom had a tattoo

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Speaker 1: of a spider web on his elbow with a tear

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Speaker 1: drop in it, and that he liked to brag that

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Speaker 1: he'd gotten it, essentially as a badge of honor for

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Speaker 1: killing a black man in Philadelphia.

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Speaker 3: I know enough about gang members is sometimes things aren't

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Speaker 3: what they say they are. That they though might get

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Speaker 3: a tattoo and purported to be something that's really isn't true,

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Speaker 3: or just kind of build their rap a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Terry was skeptical that Tom had killed someone just to

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Speaker 1: join this skinhead gang. Maybe Tom was just posing building

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Speaker 1: up his rep as a really violent dude. I mean Honestly,

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Speaker 1: maybe this whole thing was bullshit, right.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't really establish, you know, intelligence wise, of Tommy

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Speaker 3: was part of a skinhead gang. I didn't think he was.

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Speaker 3: I think he was kind of more self described skinhead.

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Speaker 1: And this raised the question, would a self described skinhead

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Speaker 1: acting on his own, really murder someone for what? So

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Speaker 1: he could give himself a tattoo? And all of this

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Speaker 1: while he was still in high school seemed like a stretch. Okay,

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Speaker 1: here's the second clue, and it was a promising one.

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Speaker 1: According to the ex girlfriend Patricia, Tom had bragged about

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Speaker 1: having an accomplice, a guy named Craig Peterson. Allegedly they

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Speaker 1: orchestrated this murder together and both of them got those

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Speaker 1: aim spider web tattoos. Now, if this was true, and

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Speaker 1: if they could find Craig and if he would talk,

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Speaker 1: well that'd be huge. But that was a lot of ifs.

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Speaker 1: So they started combing through public records, asking around about

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Speaker 1: this Craig guy to supposed accomplice, and here's what they found.

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Speaker 1: Craig was an old buddy from Tom's high school days.

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Speaker 1: He also identified specifically as a blue collar skinhead. Craig

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Speaker 1: had grown up in Delaware, but as far as anyone

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Speaker 1: could tell, he wasn't living there anymore. Seemed like he

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Speaker 1: kind of disappeared. And then they got a lead.

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Speaker 3: We found out he's in He's in Vermont, like a

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Speaker 3: remote part of Vermont. And I remember, I said, this

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Speaker 3: dude's hiding. Man, he's hiding. I said, that cat from Wilmington,

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Speaker 3: Delaware living in Vermont. Man, I said, dude, Nick, it's

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Speaker 3: cold up there. Man, I mean, that's a cold place. Bro.

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Speaker 1: So they put on their winter coats and headed north.

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Speaker 1: It was now December of two thousand and four. It

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Speaker 1: had been about a month since they first heard the rumor,

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Speaker 1: and now here they were in the car, driving into

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Speaker 1: the chill of a Vermont winter. Temperature was hovering around

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Speaker 1: freezing that night, and as they sped along through the

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Speaker 1: green mountains, past the darkened forests of evergreens, they had

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Speaker 1: no idea what to expect, Like, what are you hoping

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Speaker 1: to find out?

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Speaker 3: Hey? At this point, we're like, man, whatever he's got,

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Speaker 3: he's got to give us something, man, because we're again,

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Speaker 3: we're spinning our wheels. It felt like, man, if this

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Speaker 3: has come through, I think, honestly, I think we're.

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Speaker 1: Done Terry recalls on that drive up to Vermont, they

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Speaker 1: talked a lot about why they couldn't or shouldn't give

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Speaker 1: up on the case.

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Speaker 3: So we had great discussions, and that's when I really

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Speaker 3: we both realized, wow, wait a minute, this is not

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Speaker 3: an accident that he and I are team together. This

237
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Speaker 3: was like, literally, we didn't do this, we couldn't plan.

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Speaker 1: This, and there was a reason for this feeling. Turns

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Speaker 1: out there was a strange symmetry to their lives that

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Speaker 1: dated back before they ever met. So we're going to

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Speaker 1: leave Scott and Terry in the car heading up to

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Speaker 1: Vermont and turn back the clock. For Scott, it all

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Speaker 1: started when he graduated high school. He wanted to be

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Speaker 1: a cop, but by his own estimation at the time,

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Speaker 1: he was too small, too skinny. He weighed just ninety

246
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Speaker 1: three pounds, so instead he opted to become a priest.

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Speaker 1: He was just seventeen years old when he decided to

248
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Speaker 1: join the seminary, but right away when he put on

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Speaker 1: that priest's color, it was transformative, both for him and

250
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Speaker 1: also for the way that other people looked at him.

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Speaker 2: I would be sitting in a pew, maybe praying in

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Speaker 2: a church. Somebody would come by and start confessing, and

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Speaker 2: people just start pouring their souls out to me.

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Speaker 1: In these moments, Scott was learning how to listen, how

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Speaker 1: to suspend judgment, how to be patient as people grappled

256
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Speaker 1: with some burdensome secret, inching their way towards the precipice

257
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Speaker 1: of truth. He spent five years training to become a priest,

258
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Speaker 1: but dreams are stubborn things, and his didn't go away.

259
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Speaker 1: He left the seminary to become a cop and then

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Speaker 1: an FBI agent.

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Speaker 2: It is harder to leave than it is to go in.

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Speaker 2: And that's ultimately because I think, now you have ventured

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Speaker 2: this relationship with God, and now you're afraid of pissing

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Speaker 2: him off.

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Speaker 1: For Scott, this shifting careers seemed like a natural progression

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Speaker 1: for him. The seminary prepared him for this work, prepared

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Speaker 1: him to listen and see his way through a messy

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Speaker 1: world fraught with moral dilemmas. But when he'd tell people

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Speaker 1: about his past, how he'd almost become a priest, they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: my gosh, I can never imagine. The two are totally

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Speaker 1: opposed to each other. And I never understood that. But

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Speaker 1: there was at least one person who got it completely Terry.

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Speaker 3: I went to college at a very small Bible College

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Speaker 3: and was preparing for ministry.

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Speaker 1: From a young age. Terry felt destined for the ministry,

276
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Speaker 1: but later on, when he was in Bible College, he

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Speaker 1: had second thoughts. As graduation approached, a friend asked him,

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Speaker 1: you ever consider becoming a cop. The short answer was no.

279
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Speaker 1: But on a whim, Terry applied and met with a recruiter.

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Speaker 3: And this guy, he was a hardcore dude. I mean

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Speaker 3: he looked at me. I was back then, I was skinny.

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Speaker 3: He looked at me and said, you're from where and

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Speaker 3: you want to do what You're from Bible College, and

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Speaker 3: you have any idea what you're applying for, what you're

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Speaker 3: trying to do. I said, no, sir, I have no idea.

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Speaker 1: Terry was undeterred. He became a cop and then an

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Speaker 1: agent with the ATF. And this was not a consolation

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Speaker 1: job for Terry. He's very clear about this. He feels

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Speaker 1: that God had a purpose for him in law enforcement.

290
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Speaker 1: And that's the thing you gotta understand about both Terry

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00:19:33,996 --> 00:19:36,476
Speaker 1: and Scott. These are not men who look at the

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Speaker 1: world and see coincidences. What they see is much closer

293
00:19:40,516 --> 00:19:45,316
Speaker 1: to fate or God's will, and when they became partners,

294
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Speaker 1: it all seemed meant to be. Here were two guys

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Speaker 1: who early on looked too skinny and earnest to be cops,

296
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Speaker 1: guys who intended to become men of God. Different in

297
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Speaker 1: their own ways. Terry grew up in a gritty river

298
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Speaker 1: town in Pennsylvania, and he kind of feels like a dude.

299
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Speaker 1: You'd play around a mini golf with grab a Burger,

300
00:20:05,436 --> 00:20:09,196
Speaker 1: have a laugh, and then realize only belatedly that they

301
00:20:09,276 --> 00:20:13,476
Speaker 1: told him more than you intended to. Scott, Well, he's

302
00:20:13,516 --> 00:20:17,196
Speaker 1: more formal. He's from Connecticut. Are really Yankee? A man

303
00:20:17,236 --> 00:20:21,516
Speaker 1: who chooses his words carefully, A patient priest who knows

304
00:20:21,556 --> 00:20:24,956
Speaker 1: how to nurse a long pregnant pause. The two of

305
00:20:24,956 --> 00:20:29,596
Speaker 1: them worked well together, complimented one another, the Pennsylvania pastor

306
00:20:30,076 --> 00:20:37,036
Speaker 1: and the New England priest, and I've been calling them partners,

307
00:20:37,076 --> 00:20:40,956
Speaker 1: but they only ever worked together on this one investigation.

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Speaker 1: It was an unusual collaboration between the FBI and the ATF,

309
00:20:46,396 --> 00:20:49,076
Speaker 1: and they didn't choose one another. They were kind of

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Speaker 1: paired randomly, though neither of them would say it was random.

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Speaker 3: You know, as we started realizing that wait a minute,

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Speaker 3: we're we're on a mission from God.

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Speaker 1: But yep, just like the Blues Brothers.

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Speaker 3: We didn't really say that, I'm just making it up,

315
00:21:05,636 --> 00:21:08,556
Speaker 3: but that was the feeling. Well hey no, but it

316
00:21:08,596 --> 00:21:11,236
Speaker 3: was like, no joke, like this is a real deal.

317
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Speaker 3: It's almost like we're walking through almost like a dream,

318
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Speaker 3: like what is going on here?

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Speaker 1: So yeah, even though all they had was a rumor

320
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Speaker 1: of a long forgotten crime that might not have even happened,

321
00:21:25,436 --> 00:21:29,316
Speaker 1: these two almost ministers, the God Squad as it were,

322
00:21:29,996 --> 00:21:33,316
Speaker 1: still felt certain that they were here in this car

323
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Speaker 1: heading north into Vermont for a reason, and they were

324
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Speaker 1: convinced that something important was waiting for them. That's when

325
00:21:42,516 --> 00:22:09,916
Speaker 1: we get back. Both Scott and Terry had this hunch

326
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Speaker 1: that there was a reason Craig, the alleged accomplice, was

327
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Speaker 1: up in Vermont, up in the mountains, that he was hiding.

328
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Speaker 1: But if so, who is he hiding from and why?

329
00:22:24,036 --> 00:22:26,436
Speaker 1: In any case, they knew they had to be careful.

330
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Speaker 1: They'd learned from police reports that in the past Craig

331
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Speaker 1: had helped Tom clean and store a whole arsenal of weapons.

332
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Speaker 1: Why'd he do this? Well, Tom had a felony on

333
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Speaker 1: his record, which meant he wasn't supposed to have any guns,

334
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Speaker 1: so his buddy Craig helped him out. This suggested two

335
00:22:44,476 --> 00:22:48,316
Speaker 1: things to the agents. One Craig was loyal he ended

336
00:22:48,396 --> 00:22:52,116
Speaker 1: up going to prison for storing those weapons, and two,

337
00:22:52,356 --> 00:22:56,156
Speaker 1: Craig was probably handy with a gun. The God Squad

338
00:22:56,236 --> 00:22:59,516
Speaker 1: was still hatching their plan as they rolled into town.

339
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Speaker 2: It was late. I feel like we were closing in

340
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Speaker 2: on midnight, and we didn't want to put it off.

341
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Speaker 2: We were just so full of energy.

342
00:23:16,036 --> 00:23:19,236
Speaker 1: It was late for a door knock, very late, but

343
00:23:19,276 --> 00:23:23,956
Speaker 1: their excitement eclips their caution, so instead of waiting until morning,

344
00:23:24,556 --> 00:23:27,716
Speaker 1: they drove right to his house. Their plan was to

345
00:23:27,756 --> 00:23:31,436
Speaker 1: say hello, introduce themselves, and arrange to have a formal

346
00:23:31,516 --> 00:23:34,716
Speaker 1: sit down the following day.

347
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Speaker 3: And when we finally found where he lives, he lives

348
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Speaker 3: literally on top of like if it's on a mountain,

349
00:23:40,996 --> 00:23:43,076
Speaker 3: it's a very very tall hill. It's very tall and

350
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Speaker 3: very steep.

351
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Speaker 2: I remember being very very dark, like I don't think

352
00:23:50,196 --> 00:23:53,116
Speaker 2: I could see my hand in front of me, And

353
00:23:53,236 --> 00:23:56,516
Speaker 2: as soon as we got out of our cars, I

354
00:23:56,556 --> 00:23:59,636
Speaker 2: think we got out a few feet and then floodlights.

355
00:24:00,196 --> 00:24:03,036
Speaker 2: I just remember floodlights like we were in a stadium,

356
00:24:04,196 --> 00:24:05,836
Speaker 2: just shined upon us.

357
00:24:07,276 --> 00:24:10,596
Speaker 3: I mean it was like bright as he had hooked

358
00:24:10,636 --> 00:24:14,276
Speaker 3: up these spotlights and trees illuminating the whole area, and

359
00:24:14,316 --> 00:24:16,356
Speaker 3: we can see his house dimly up the top of

360
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Speaker 3: the hill. I think I may have made a comment

361
00:24:18,436 --> 00:24:21,476
Speaker 3: to Scott. I said, man, if he had any ill intent,

362
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Speaker 3: he we'd be dead men right now.

363
00:24:23,516 --> 00:24:29,796
Speaker 2: That told me a lot that Wow, you know what

364
00:24:29,996 --> 00:24:33,436
Speaker 2: is inside this person that he has this going on

365
00:24:34,476 --> 00:24:37,916
Speaker 2: where he wants to be made well aware of anybody arriving.

366
00:24:39,356 --> 00:24:42,796
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, man, he does not. He doesn't want to

367
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Speaker 3: be found.

368
00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:52,636
Speaker 1: Scott and Terry start trudging up the icy, snow covered hill.

369
00:24:53,316 --> 00:24:57,116
Speaker 1: They can hear dogs barking from within the house. Eventually

370
00:24:57,276 --> 00:25:00,876
Speaker 1: they get up to the front porch and Craig walks out.

371
00:25:01,076 --> 00:25:04,876
Speaker 1: He's medium height and stocky, with a closely cropped haircut.

372
00:25:05,996 --> 00:25:06,996
Speaker 1: Scott calls out to.

373
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Speaker 2: Him, Craig Peterson, you don't know us, but we're here.

374
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Speaker 2: I'm going to talk to you. Federal agents. Can we

375
00:25:13,316 --> 00:25:17,036
Speaker 2: approach you? Can we come up to your house and

376
00:25:18,436 --> 00:25:26,116
Speaker 2: within ten seconds, just a very friendly, inviting demeanor, come

377
00:25:26,116 --> 00:25:29,236
Speaker 2: on up and come into my house is a sigh

378
00:25:29,236 --> 00:25:31,876
Speaker 2: of relief of that, but definitely a side of release.

379
00:25:31,916 --> 00:25:36,356
Speaker 2: First and foremost, we've achieved our first goal is finding him,

380
00:25:37,076 --> 00:25:41,436
Speaker 2: achieved our second goal of being able to be face

381
00:25:41,516 --> 00:25:45,156
Speaker 2: to face with him. Our third goal was to get

382
00:25:45,236 --> 00:25:49,076
Speaker 2: him to come and speak with us at a different location.

383
00:25:49,156 --> 00:25:51,036
Speaker 2: We weren't going to talk to him at his house.

384
00:25:51,756 --> 00:25:55,196
Speaker 1: Craig invites them inside, he introduces them to his fiance.

385
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Speaker 1: It's all very normal and Craig he seems unfazed.

386
00:26:00,476 --> 00:26:04,796
Speaker 3: He was very relaxed, very gracious. I mean, just almost

387
00:26:04,836 --> 00:26:06,516
Speaker 3: opposite of what I was expecting.

388
00:26:07,396 --> 00:26:09,996
Speaker 1: Scott and Terry explained that they just have a few

389
00:26:10,076 --> 00:26:12,876
Speaker 1: questions for him about an old matter from the past.

390
00:26:13,516 --> 00:26:16,676
Speaker 1: They keep it deliberately vague, and they ask if he'd

391
00:26:16,676 --> 00:26:19,116
Speaker 1: be willing to meet with them the following day down

392
00:26:19,156 --> 00:26:21,996
Speaker 1: at the barracks where the Vermont State Police are stationed.

393
00:26:22,596 --> 00:26:26,276
Speaker 1: Craig's like, sure, I'll meet you tomorrow after I'm done

394
00:26:26,276 --> 00:26:30,676
Speaker 1: with work. All the while, Terry is studying both Craig

395
00:26:30,876 --> 00:26:34,156
Speaker 1: and his fiance, trying to get a read on them.

396
00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:37,996
Speaker 3: His fiance was way more concerned than he was, Like

397
00:26:38,036 --> 00:26:40,756
Speaker 3: she was like, what's going on, Like what's this about

398
00:26:40,876 --> 00:26:43,436
Speaker 3: he's not stressed at all, Like there's no stress with

399
00:26:43,476 --> 00:26:46,156
Speaker 3: this dat like there's nothing. I'm like, this is unbelievable.

400
00:26:47,636 --> 00:26:49,876
Speaker 1: The next day, Scott and Terry Aer down at the

401
00:26:49,876 --> 00:26:53,356
Speaker 1: barracks of the Vermont State Police and they're just hoping

402
00:26:53,436 --> 00:26:54,876
Speaker 1: Craig actually shows up.

403
00:26:55,596 --> 00:26:57,756
Speaker 3: He ain he ain't gonna show up, Like, what's the

404
00:26:57,796 --> 00:26:59,596
Speaker 3: odds he's gonna show up? Like, And I was like

405
00:26:59,636 --> 00:27:02,076
Speaker 3: fifty to fifty Yeah, But.

406
00:27:02,556 --> 00:27:05,756
Speaker 1: He shows up. In fact, he's it early, and after

407
00:27:05,796 --> 00:27:08,396
Speaker 1: a little chit chat, they all sit down and get

408
00:27:08,436 --> 00:27:12,676
Speaker 1: to business. Scott explains that they're here about Tom Guybison.

409
00:27:14,396 --> 00:27:19,476
Speaker 2: Craig, We've made a long trip and we've been investigating

410
00:27:20,836 --> 00:27:25,196
Speaker 2: Tom for a possible threat, and during the course of

411
00:27:25,196 --> 00:27:30,076
Speaker 2: that investigation, we've learned that a story was told.

412
00:27:31,316 --> 00:27:34,836
Speaker 1: This is the story they'd heard from Patricia, Tom's ex girlfriend,

413
00:27:35,396 --> 00:27:39,156
Speaker 1: that some fifteen years prior, Craig and Tom had been skinheads,

414
00:27:39,756 --> 00:27:42,836
Speaker 1: that they'd killed a black man in Philadelphia and then

415
00:27:43,076 --> 00:27:46,756
Speaker 1: got in tattoos to commemorate what they'd done.

416
00:27:46,836 --> 00:27:56,916
Speaker 2: And Craig just looked at us shocked, almost a sense

417
00:27:56,956 --> 00:28:07,756
Speaker 2: of I can't believe that this is coming back. And

418
00:28:07,796 --> 00:28:13,836
Speaker 2: then he sat back in his chair and said, I

419
00:28:13,836 --> 00:28:14,956
Speaker 2: don't know what you're talking about.

420
00:28:17,796 --> 00:28:21,436
Speaker 1: Scott keeps pressing gently, very much playing the role of

421
00:28:21,476 --> 00:28:25,196
Speaker 1: the New England priest, that he almost was concealing any

422
00:28:25,236 --> 00:28:28,556
Speaker 1: signs of judgment, just patiently probing.

423
00:28:29,596 --> 00:28:34,036
Speaker 2: Well, at the very least, would you admit you have

424
00:28:34,116 --> 00:28:38,796
Speaker 2: the tattoo? Why would they lie about the story? Would they?

425
00:28:38,996 --> 00:28:44,756
Speaker 2: Would they also lie about the tattoo? So would you

426
00:28:44,836 --> 00:28:51,436
Speaker 2: raise your would you raise your sleeve? And so begrudgingly

427
00:28:51,476 --> 00:28:55,196
Speaker 2: he did. He showed us his tattoo.

428
00:28:55,476 --> 00:28:58,716
Speaker 1: A gothic looking spider web in black ink, with the

429
00:28:58,796 --> 00:29:03,116
Speaker 1: elbow directly at the center, similar to what Patricia had described.

430
00:29:04,036 --> 00:29:07,116
Speaker 1: Craig admitted that he and Tom both had tattoos like this,

431
00:29:07,756 --> 00:29:10,836
Speaker 1: that they'd gotten them together in high school, and Greg

432
00:29:10,876 --> 00:29:14,556
Speaker 1: admitted that back in his youth, yeah, he'd been his skinhead,

433
00:29:15,036 --> 00:29:16,556
Speaker 1: but it had just been a phase.

434
00:29:18,716 --> 00:29:20,196
Speaker 3: He said, Man, that was a long time ago. I

435
00:29:20,236 --> 00:29:23,236
Speaker 3: was a young knucklehead, and I don't believe that stuff anymore,

436
00:29:23,836 --> 00:29:26,276
Speaker 3: you know, man, I'm up here. I'm working hard, man, guys.

437
00:29:26,276 --> 00:29:30,316
Speaker 3: I work every day, hourly wage. I work as an electrician.

438
00:29:30,356 --> 00:29:33,156
Speaker 3: I've got a new life. I don't want any part

439
00:29:33,156 --> 00:29:35,396
Speaker 3: of this. He just denied the whole thing. But I

440
00:29:35,396 --> 00:29:39,316
Speaker 3: can't overemphasize. I'm watching this cat. I'm like, he's not

441
00:29:39,396 --> 00:29:40,236
Speaker 3: stressed at all.

442
00:29:40,836 --> 00:29:44,156
Speaker 1: At this point. Despite the fact that Craig had this tattoo,

443
00:29:44,476 --> 00:29:48,676
Speaker 1: which offered some corroboration, Scott and Terry basically have to

444
00:29:48,756 --> 00:29:52,236
Speaker 1: let him go. They say, hey, let's keep in touch.

445
00:29:52,756 --> 00:29:54,996
Speaker 1: If you ever come down to Delaware, please let us know.

446
00:29:55,236 --> 00:29:56,276
Speaker 1: We'd like to keep talking.

447
00:29:56,916 --> 00:29:59,876
Speaker 3: He said, yeah, if I come down there like Jake,

448
00:30:00,036 --> 00:30:01,516
Speaker 3: no one's ever going to say yeah, yeah, yeah, I

449
00:30:01,556 --> 00:30:03,316
Speaker 3: look your eyes up. If I'm ever down Delaware, sure

450
00:30:03,356 --> 00:30:05,996
Speaker 3: like we're gonna have a dinner together. I'm thinking nobody

451
00:30:06,036 --> 00:30:08,636
Speaker 3: does that. Nobody wants to talk to their least favorite

452
00:30:08,636 --> 00:30:11,636
Speaker 3: FBI and agent in the world about a homicide they

453
00:30:11,636 --> 00:30:12,196
Speaker 3: didn't commit.

454
00:30:12,956 --> 00:30:16,316
Speaker 1: In Terry's mind, it was weird how friendly he was,

455
00:30:17,116 --> 00:30:20,796
Speaker 1: and it also seemed difficult to imagine that this guy

456
00:30:20,916 --> 00:30:24,796
Speaker 1: right here, this laid back electrician living in Vermont, could

457
00:30:24,836 --> 00:30:27,316
Speaker 1: be capable of orchestrating a murder.

458
00:30:28,516 --> 00:30:32,396
Speaker 3: If the dude was in the car and they did

459
00:30:32,396 --> 00:30:36,196
Speaker 3: a homicide, however went down, whoever pulled the trigger, I'm

460
00:30:36,236 --> 00:30:39,396
Speaker 3: thinking I'm not seeing it I mean, if it did

461
00:30:39,436 --> 00:30:42,076
Speaker 3: happen and he was in the very car, I see

462
00:30:42,116 --> 00:30:45,916
Speaker 3: nothing nonverbal in this guy. There's no stress, there's no deception.

463
00:30:46,636 --> 00:30:48,636
Speaker 3: I'm looking at his eyes, I'm looking at his whole

464
00:30:48,636 --> 00:30:51,876
Speaker 3: facial I'm looking at everything. I'm thinking this guy's like

465
00:30:51,916 --> 00:30:53,436
Speaker 3: the he liked the best liar ever.

466
00:30:54,636 --> 00:30:57,596
Speaker 1: So they say goodbye to Craig, They thank the Vermont

467
00:30:57,636 --> 00:31:00,476
Speaker 1: State Troopers. They walk out of the barracks, get in

468
00:31:00,556 --> 00:31:04,876
Speaker 1: their car, and head home, all the while trying to

469
00:31:04,916 --> 00:31:06,756
Speaker 1: make sense of what they've just learned.

470
00:31:08,316 --> 00:31:11,156
Speaker 3: And I said, Scott, I don't think it happened, man.

471
00:31:12,156 --> 00:31:14,356
Speaker 3: He gus, what do you mean. I said, there's no

472
00:31:14,436 --> 00:31:16,956
Speaker 3: way that, dude, there's no way. I said, maybe Tommy

473
00:31:16,956 --> 00:31:18,556
Speaker 3: did something. I don't know, but I said he didn't

474
00:31:18,556 --> 00:31:21,356
Speaker 3: do nothing. I'm telling you that dude is way too cool.

475
00:31:21,596 --> 00:31:24,876
Speaker 3: And Scott he goes, nah, I kinda think something's there.

476
00:31:24,916 --> 00:31:31,996
Speaker 2: Man, this happened, and uh, we're definitely not stopping, I.

477
00:31:31,996 --> 00:31:34,756
Speaker 3: Said, Scott, I'm not seeing it, man, I said, dude,

478
00:31:34,756 --> 00:31:35,996
Speaker 3: I said, I think we're toast. Bro.

479
00:31:37,436 --> 00:31:40,876
Speaker 1: After this time passes about a year and a half,

480
00:31:41,476 --> 00:31:44,636
Speaker 1: and during this stretch, very little happens. In this case,

481
00:31:46,076 --> 00:31:49,236
Speaker 1: Craig keeps living his quiet life up in the Vermont Mountains.

482
00:31:49,836 --> 00:31:52,436
Speaker 1: Occasionally the God Squad gives him a call just to

483
00:31:52,596 --> 00:31:57,356
Speaker 1: check in, but Craig never tells him anything new. Meanwhile,

484
00:31:57,716 --> 00:32:02,036
Speaker 1: Tom Godbison finishes serving his time in federal prison. He's released,

485
00:32:02,316 --> 00:32:05,396
Speaker 1: goes back to living in Delaware, where he seems to

486
00:32:05,436 --> 00:32:09,476
Speaker 1: stay out of trouble. Then one day in eight of

487
00:32:09,476 --> 00:32:12,316
Speaker 1: two thousand and six, the God Squad gets a phone

488
00:32:12,316 --> 00:32:13,996
Speaker 1: call from Craig.

489
00:32:15,276 --> 00:32:19,156
Speaker 3: Craig says, Hey, basically, I'm coming down to see my mom.

490
00:32:19,676 --> 00:32:21,196
Speaker 3: You know, do you guys want to still talk to me?

491
00:32:21,756 --> 00:32:26,036
Speaker 3: I'm incredulous the dude is volunteering. You know, nothing's happened

492
00:32:26,076 --> 00:32:28,236
Speaker 3: in the year and whatever months it's been. There's no

493
00:32:28,356 --> 00:32:31,156
Speaker 3: subpoenas as though arrests, there's those search warrants. Nothing. He's

494
00:32:31,156 --> 00:32:32,236
Speaker 3: got to think he's Scott free.

495
00:32:32,876 --> 00:32:33,116
Speaker 4: Are you?

496
00:32:33,196 --> 00:32:35,236
Speaker 1: Are you pretty surprised to get this phone call?

497
00:32:36,036 --> 00:32:36,276
Speaker 2: Yeah?

498
00:32:36,396 --> 00:32:39,836
Speaker 3: I mean again, I'm like, this is unbelievable. I doesn't

499
00:32:39,836 --> 00:32:43,196
Speaker 3: make any sense to me, But I honestly, I literally

500
00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:48,076
Speaker 3: felt like, does he want friends? Does he need friends?

501
00:32:48,356 --> 00:32:51,516
Speaker 3: There's some things that are miraculous. They don't look miraculous.

502
00:32:51,516 --> 00:32:54,196
Speaker 3: But they literally are miraculous, So that doesn't happen in

503
00:32:54,196 --> 00:32:55,836
Speaker 3: a real world. Man, it doesn't happen.

504
00:32:57,236 --> 00:32:59,516
Speaker 1: Terry and Scott are determined to make the most of

505
00:32:59,556 --> 00:33:03,116
Speaker 1: this meeting, and they go for a new strategy. They've

506
00:33:03,116 --> 00:33:06,236
Speaker 1: tried the whole good cop routine and it hasn't worked,

507
00:33:06,396 --> 00:33:11,396
Speaker 1: not really, So to apply a little pressure, they get

508
00:33:11,436 --> 00:33:15,516
Speaker 1: a subpoena requiring Craig to testify before a grand jury

509
00:33:15,676 --> 00:33:19,516
Speaker 1: about the murder that allegedly took place. This is no joke.

510
00:33:19,996 --> 00:33:23,476
Speaker 1: The subpoena will put Craig on the spot because lying

511
00:33:23,556 --> 00:33:26,356
Speaker 1: before a grand jury is a serious offense. They can

512
00:33:26,436 --> 00:33:30,076
Speaker 1: land you in prison for years. But remember they still

513
00:33:30,076 --> 00:33:32,836
Speaker 1: have pretty much nothing on Craig at this point, So

514
00:33:32,956 --> 00:33:37,436
Speaker 1: the subpoena, it's kind of a bluff. What's your mindset

515
00:33:37,476 --> 00:33:38,316
Speaker 1: going into that meeting.

516
00:33:39,996 --> 00:33:46,876
Speaker 2: Our mindset is this, we had a subpoena, We're gonna

517
00:33:47,076 --> 00:33:49,436
Speaker 2: give it to him. You always have to hand deliver it.

518
00:33:49,756 --> 00:33:51,516
Speaker 2: There was going to be no more willer room, no

519
00:33:51,596 --> 00:33:54,756
Speaker 2: more postponements. This is now going to be the make

520
00:33:54,836 --> 00:33:55,676
Speaker 2: it or break it.

521
00:33:56,876 --> 00:34:00,916
Speaker 1: So Craig shows up at the FBI's offices in Wilmington, Delaware,

522
00:34:01,396 --> 00:34:04,516
Speaker 1: he's got no idea that there's a subpoena waiting for him.

523
00:34:05,516 --> 00:34:08,436
Speaker 1: What happens next we piece together from talking to the

524
00:34:08,476 --> 00:34:13,476
Speaker 1: agent's and reading their report from that day. Initially, it's

525
00:34:13,516 --> 00:34:16,956
Speaker 1: all smiles. Terry keeps the whole thing really upbeat.

526
00:34:17,236 --> 00:34:19,676
Speaker 3: Hey, we thank you for coming down. This is awesome.

527
00:34:21,156 --> 00:34:22,716
Speaker 3: You know, we really appreciate it.

528
00:34:23,276 --> 00:34:26,396
Speaker 1: They asked Craig again about the rumor of the murder

529
00:34:26,436 --> 00:34:30,196
Speaker 1: down in Philadelphia. They tell him, we don't think you're

530
00:34:30,236 --> 00:34:34,396
Speaker 1: telling us the truth, and this time, instead of denying

531
00:34:34,436 --> 00:34:38,996
Speaker 1: the whole thing outright, Craig concedes that maybe back at

532
00:34:39,036 --> 00:34:41,036
Speaker 1: the time there'd been some chatter about this.

533
00:34:41,996 --> 00:34:43,596
Speaker 3: I think he said something like, yeah, we heard rumors

534
00:34:43,636 --> 00:34:46,396
Speaker 3: about that that someone said we did a homicide. But

535
00:34:46,716 --> 00:34:50,196
Speaker 3: man's now, that's nothing to it. We didn't do any homicide.

536
00:34:50,636 --> 00:34:54,956
Speaker 3: It's a bunch of junk. Didn't happen. Yeah, maybe Tommy

537
00:34:54,956 --> 00:34:55,836
Speaker 3: said that's gonna.

538
00:34:55,596 --> 00:34:58,876
Speaker 1: Build our rep a little bit, in other words, a

539
00:34:58,876 --> 00:35:02,636
Speaker 1: bit of bragging, but nothing more than that. The agents

540
00:35:02,676 --> 00:35:06,916
Speaker 1: push Craig tell him, we believe a homicide occurred and

541
00:35:06,956 --> 00:35:10,996
Speaker 1: that you participated in it. Eventually, when the meeting is

542
00:35:11,036 --> 00:35:15,036
Speaker 1: almost over, the hand Craig the subpoena and kind of

543
00:35:15,076 --> 00:35:16,316
Speaker 1: hold their breath.

544
00:35:16,956 --> 00:35:20,196
Speaker 3: And again we're shooting blanks. We have nothing right. Well,

545
00:35:20,196 --> 00:35:23,276
Speaker 3: his whole demeanor changed when he got to subpoena. He's

546
00:35:23,356 --> 00:35:27,276
Speaker 3: like what the stress right? Went from like zero to

547
00:35:27,396 --> 00:35:29,236
Speaker 3: like he's he's hitting about a ten.

548
00:35:31,596 --> 00:35:35,556
Speaker 1: That meeting ends without a breakthrough. Craig didn't admit to anything,

549
00:35:36,236 --> 00:35:39,676
Speaker 1: but a few days later he calls them back says

550
00:35:39,716 --> 00:35:43,636
Speaker 1: he wants to meet again, have another sit down. So

551
00:35:44,076 --> 00:35:48,596
Speaker 1: they reconvene, and at this meeting, right off the bat,

552
00:35:48,876 --> 00:35:49,796
Speaker 1: the mood is tense.

553
00:35:52,996 --> 00:36:00,276
Speaker 2: When he arrived, I could tell he was depleted, shaken.

554
00:36:01,556 --> 00:36:06,436
Speaker 2: His whole body had changed to a defeatist demeanor.

555
00:36:07,596 --> 00:36:12,196
Speaker 3: He was like completely complete hundred ay degree change and

556
00:36:12,436 --> 00:36:16,556
Speaker 3: he literally it's hard to describe. It was literally like

557
00:36:16,916 --> 00:36:19,476
Speaker 3: an invisible hand was pushing him down in the chair.

558
00:36:20,436 --> 00:36:23,836
Speaker 3: He physically got smaller. I saw him shrink like like

559
00:36:24,156 --> 00:36:29,556
Speaker 3: like he was like getting deflated. He started sweating, beads

560
00:36:29,556 --> 00:36:30,956
Speaker 3: of sweat were popping out.

561
00:36:31,916 --> 00:36:35,036
Speaker 2: You could feel the tension, but you can also feel

562
00:36:35,076 --> 00:36:44,516
Speaker 2: like he's about to say something. And then he's he says,

563
00:36:45,476 --> 00:36:46,596
Speaker 2: I'll tell you everything.

564
00:36:46,956 --> 00:36:52,676
Speaker 1: I'll tell you everything, I'll tell you everything, And at

565
00:36:52,676 --> 00:36:58,076
Speaker 1: this moment it seemed like maybe, just maybe they'd been

566
00:36:58,196 --> 00:37:02,036
Speaker 1: right all along not to give up on this, and

567
00:37:02,116 --> 00:37:10,196
Speaker 1: that the truth was finally at hand. Coming up this

568
00:37:10,236 --> 00:37:12,196
Speaker 1: season on deep Cover.

569
00:37:13,236 --> 00:37:15,956
Speaker 2: We have to do our job and we have to

570
00:37:16,156 --> 00:37:18,276
Speaker 2: find out who did they kill.

571
00:37:19,196 --> 00:37:24,076
Speaker 4: Not that any murder isn't disturbing, but this particular murder

572
00:37:24,116 --> 00:37:26,356
Speaker 4: and the reason for it the hate.

573
00:37:27,036 --> 00:37:32,196
Speaker 3: This was a hate crime. I believe Tom guys Soon

574
00:37:32,316 --> 00:37:35,636
Speaker 3: is innocent. They had no physical evidence, they had no gun,

575
00:37:36,116 --> 00:37:36,996
Speaker 3: they had nothing.

576
00:37:38,316 --> 00:37:42,396
Speaker 4: We didn't like the speculation the family, and I thought

577
00:37:42,436 --> 00:37:45,676
Speaker 4: that this would be good if we found at least

578
00:37:45,716 --> 00:37:48,156
Speaker 4: what happened to them. Can't do nothing about it, can't

579
00:37:48,156 --> 00:37:50,716
Speaker 4: bring them back, but at least we'll find out the truth.

580
00:38:15,756 --> 00:38:19,596
Speaker 1: Deep Cover is produced by Amy Gaines McQuaid and Jacob Smith.

581
00:38:20,156 --> 00:38:25,116
Speaker 1: It's edited by Karen SCHAKERJI mastering by Jake Gorsky. Our

582
00:38:25,156 --> 00:38:28,596
Speaker 1: show art was designed by Sean Carney. Original scoring in

583
00:38:28,676 --> 00:38:32,476
Speaker 1: our theme was composed by Luis Gara. Fact checking by

584
00:38:32,556 --> 00:38:38,596
Speaker 1: Arthur Gomberts. Our story consultant was James Foreman Jr. Special

585
00:38:38,636 --> 00:38:42,916
Speaker 1: thanks to Jerry Williams, Sarah Nix, Greta Cone, and Jake Flanagan,

586
00:38:43,916 --> 00:39:32,516
Speaker 1: I'm Jake Albert