WEBVTT - Magic the Gathering's Creator Wants to Create an Even Better Game 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:13.720 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:15.280 I'm Tracy Alloway. 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:16.840 And I'm Joe. Wasn't thal Joe? 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:19.160 Did you ever play Magic the Gathering? 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:20.040 No? 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:26.120 Really, I've never played it. The only game I mean, 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:30.000 I spent some time playing chess, and I yeah, I've 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:33.120 talked about on the show before. And then outside of that, 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:35.920 it's like I never had the capacity in my life 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:38.800 to like really learn new games. So it's like, you 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:40.360 know what, I'm gonna play chess, try to get better 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:42.280 out of play on my phone. But I've never like 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:44.520 then like I want to play some other game. 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:46.080 Man, you need to branch out. 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:46.680 I know. 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:48.680 Well, I just don't want to start. You know what 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:51.199 the thing is, I don't want to start from the beginning. 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:53.880 I'm just like, I'm like too old for that. 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:57.280 That's how you've learned new things. Okay, Well, speaking of 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:01.320 being old, I spent countless hours in middle school playing 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:05.280 Magic the Gathering. It was a huge thing in Let's see, 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:09.160 this would have been around ninety four, ninety five, and 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:12.119 almost everyone I knew at the time was playing it. 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:14.120 Where were you living in ninety five? 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:18.760 I was in Chicago, Chicago, So that's partly why. And 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.840 you know, every recess was taken up with Magic, the 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:25.840 gathering tournaments, and I really enjoyed playing, but for me, 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:31.960 the collectibility of the cards was probably more interesting. I 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:33.880 was obsessed with the cards. 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:37.319 One of my best friend's younger brother was like, really 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:39.800 obsessed with the cards in the game. Oh, I got 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:43.039 the Wall of Brambles or whatever it is? Is that 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:43.480 a card? 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:45.120 No, that's not. 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:47.960 I don't think so, although it sounds like it could be, 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:52.360 to be fair, I remember I had no it is there's. 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.240 A card called Wall of Brambles. But I think anyway, 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:57.520 I just remember that, you know, I think it's, oh, look, 0:01:57.520 --> 0:01:59.200 you can buy one for twenty cents, so I guess 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:01.320 it wasn't a very value card anyway. I was like 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:03.920 around people who were really into their cards. I was 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.000 Magic adjacent. I have had friends who play it. I 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:09.320 didn't realize up until you played it. I was like 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:12.040 sometimes when I would go like to like the bookstore 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:13.679 and play chess or the game store, the or it'd 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:15.720 be other people playing. So I was around the game, 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:17.600 but I just never played it myself. 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:20.760 Man, I spent so much time. I had so many cards, 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:23.680 I had valuable cards. I had a Chavon Dragon at 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:27.480 one point, and I really thanks show what. 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:31.240 Wow? 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:36.760 Okay, but this brings me to a serious Odd Lots 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.760 esque topic, which is Magic the Gathering is really interesting, 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.840 not just because it was one of the possibly the 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:47.280 most successful card game of all time, but it had 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:51.280 a lot of sort of economic aspects to it. So 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.440 there was the card collection, and then you can imagine 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:58.640 within the card collection aspect of it. Obviously the goal 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:01.760 is to play and win the game, but then you 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:05.480 had this whole sort of market spring up around these 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.720 super valuable cards, and there is a big discussion about 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.920 whether or not the value of the cards was actually 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:13.519 making the gameplay worse. 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:14.800 Yeah. 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.320 I so this I'm familiar with, and I get. You know, intuitively, 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:20.919 you could sort of like get this phenomenon right, because 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:23.440 a card can be useful in the game, but a 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:26.240 card could also just be like a valuable thing that 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:29.959 people buy and sell on eBay or Magic the Gathering 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:35.200 online exchange things like that. But then the question is 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:38.440 like do they align? Does the collection of the cards 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:42.720 lead to optimal gameplay, suboptimal gameplay, etc. Like you could 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:45.080 see how like the value of a card from a 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:47.640 monetary standpoint, and the value of a card from a 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.160 gameplay standpoint might be like linear related, but might not 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:52.520 be like perfectly aligned. 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:52.840 Right. 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:55.480 And the other interesting thing is Wizards of the Coast, 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.240 the company that actually made Magic, at various times they 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.480 tried to fit this problem. So they almost acted like 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:05.880 a central bank of the cards in terms of issuance, 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.800 like they would increase the supply of parts or decrease 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:11.720 the supply of rare cards as needed to make the 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:15.920 game more interesting. So that's kind of fun too. But anyway, 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.159 I could go on about Magic for many hours still, 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:24.040 but I am very very excited to say that today 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.840 we're going to be speaking with the creator of Magic, 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:30.719 the gathering. We have Richard Garfield on the line all 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:34.680 the way from Sydney, Australia, and we also have his 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:39.479 colleague Arca Ray, the president and technical director of Popularium, 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:42.320 which is the new gaming company that he's setting up 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.160 with Richard. So very excited to have them both on 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.680 the show. Richard and Arca, thank you so much for 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:48.800 joining our thoughts. 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.000 Well, hello, it's a pleasure to be here. Love talking 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:53.679 about games, all right. 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.400 Thank you both really appreciate I really appreciate your having 0:04:57.520 --> 0:04:59.599 us here. We're really excited to be here. 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:04.000 I hope so many sarcastic tone to Tracy was not 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:08.120 in any way coming off as dismissive towards the game. 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:09.040 Maybe it was. 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:13.560 Actually blocking Trady. 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:15.080 But I do want not want, I want to make 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:18.719 it clear that I have no condescension whatsoever to the game. 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.160 So I just want to get I feel bad about 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:21.640 that already. 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:23.839 Anyways, I think I think you set up a lot 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:27.320 of there for us to get into it with Richard, 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:29.880 So let's let's let's do it. Yeah. 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:33.039 I wanted to say that back in the nineties, I 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:36.520 thought that playing one game like chess was like reading 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:41.679 one book or watching one I very quickly got past 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:44.839 that because I realized games have this really special thing 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.640 where the more you play them for a lot of games, 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:51.920 the better they get. And so there's there's something which 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:55.200 doesn't really line up with a lot of the other media. 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.880 So so I think that is a perfectly good way. 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:01.680 To be Well, there's a very good there's a very 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.080 good observation. Maybe I should play more games. 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.000 Joe over here just reading one book all his life 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:11.640 past that, So Richard, maybe just to begin with you know, 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:16.000 I use the sort of economics framing to describe some 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.960 aspects of Magic, But do you think that that's like 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.360 the right way of thinking about it as a sort 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:25.120 of ecosystem or market of cards. 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:29.240 Yes, I think it's the most important thing with a 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:33.520 game like Magic is the economics around the cards. And 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:37.679 it doesn't take much to shift the game from being 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:43.480 something which isn't primarily a game, but is more an 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:47.200 economic tool. And that is in fact, you mentioned that 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:51.720 Wizards acted like a central bank. Who was very much 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:56.680 the case back in the nineties maybe ninety five, where 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:01.120 the game, the price of the game was so out 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:05.839 of control. Uh, there was the speculation bubble, and and 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:09.840 there was a conflict within the company. A lot of 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:12.320 people thought this was amazing because who doesn't want the 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.360 product to hit the hit the shelves and immediately be 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:19.240 worth you know, three times as much. But from the 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:22.120 people who were actually making the game, like me, it 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:27.040 was terrifying because it if you can't afford the game, 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:28.560 you can't play it. If you can't play it, then 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:33.840 it's not really a game. So we very intentionally overprinted 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:39.640 the set Fallen Empires and and the market crashed hard, 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:42.320 and people said that was the end of the game 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:48.559 and on the other but as it worked out, play 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:52.960 sprang up because at its route, it's a it's a 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:55.000 it's a it's a game, it's a strong game, and 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:59.160 the community loved the game and and uh and then 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:04.560 you know, it flourished. So ever since then, I've been 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:14.400 really skeptical of games and game companies which are intentionally 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.560 trying to keep the prices of their cards or components high. 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.920 You know one thing, and I definitely I don't know 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:23.480 if we want to even go down the store. I 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:26.120 mean I certainly had that thought, Like in twenty twenty 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:27.760 one when they were trying to do like and if 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:29.920 T related games. It's like it was the point to 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:31.840 play the game, or is the point to think? It 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:33.920 didn't seem like any of those games were fun something 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:40.840 I'm curious though, in nineteen ninety five, we didn't you know, eBay, 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:44.920 I don't think it really existed by ninety five barely. 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:47.320 I mean, if it did, it barely did hardly anyone 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:51.040 was using it. How at Wizards of the Coast were 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:55.000 even monitor were you able to get like real time 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:59.199 or semi real time feedback on price to find that 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.559 optimal equilibrium between the value of the cards and the 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:03.480 amount of gameplay. 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:06.360 There was I'm not sure what tools were being used, 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:11.200 but I know we had data, and in fact the 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:15.040 data was I'm not sure about eBay. It might have 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:18.280 been eBay, but the data was so clear that I 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:23.160 know at least one doctoral thesis that was put together 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:28.280 using data from Magic the gathering and the idea there 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:33.360 was that was that. The person who did it, the 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:36.680 one I know of, was Dave Riley. He found it 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:41.319 as a perfect tool to test different auctions to see 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:44.240 how that affected the final prices of the sales. 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.880 That's super interesting, so, Richard. One of the things that 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.640 was sort of built into the game, at least initially 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:55.040 was the idea of actually playing for anti so if 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:58.440 you lost, you would have to give up a card 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:02.120 from your deck your opponent, and it was sort of 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:05.000 one way of actually building up your decks and you know, 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:09.080 becoming an even better player. How come you built that 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:11.240 aspect of it into the game. 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:15.880 When we began the game, I did not anticipate it 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:22.079 being the success it was, and in fact I expected 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:30.120 players to buy one to four decks maybe, and so 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:33.400 I wanted to make sure that there was some method 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:38.439 for there to be a variety in what players had 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:42.400 even if they stopped buying cards. Now, of course they 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:45.480 can trade, and I expected that to be a part 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:47.080 of the game, but I also knew that there were 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:51.520 people uncomfortable with trading, so I thought that Anti would 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.120 be a good way to get that circulation of cards. 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:58.480 And it also acted as something of a leveler between decks. 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:02.120 If you've got a very valuable deck, then you're going 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:07.400 to be anting more valuable cards. This idea there were 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.719 some dedicated advocates of it. It was a very exciting way 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:13.040 to play, but it was pretty clear very early on 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:14.880 that we were going to have to drop it because 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:19.480 so many people hated losing the cards and so and so. 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:24.200 I imagined by the second expansion there were no more 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:26.680 ANTI cards the and it was phased out. 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:27.400 Joe. 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:30.320 One of my greatest triumphs as an eleven year old 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:35.320 was I won a signed card in Magic the gathering. 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:37.880 It was signed by the artist, and the person I 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.360 wanted from was very upset because we didn't you know, 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:42.720 we're all ten or eleven year old kids at the time. 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.880 We didn't have a lot of signed cards circulating among us. 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:50.800 Can I say I did not realize that the card loss. 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:53.319 I sort of assumed that still existed, that you could 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:55.840 lose your card. It shows you how much that I've 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.000 underd that I knew about magic. I for some reason 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:00.640 I thought maybe that was still part of it. But 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:02.800 I could see that would seem really stressful, and I 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:05.400 would not want to collect a deck, or I would 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.559 not want to be a parent buying decks for my kids, 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.199 my thirteen year old kids, and then having them lose 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:15.360 them during lunch at the game. So I could see 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.360 why that wasn't a particularly stable thank you. 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.280 I should want to interject there on that though, that 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:26.079 like today, it would be completely a non starter. And 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.439 one of the one of the things was that when 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:34.440 it was published, we didn't see them as being valuable 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:37.559 in the way they are today. Very quickly there was 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:39.480 a price settle on them, and so once there's a 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.080 price settle on them, they actually are gambling when they 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:42.840 play for antics. 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:47.559 Yeah, fine, but I don't know if you want kids gambling, 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:49.600 I guess yeah. 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.480 And yeah, back when when it was play test cards 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:54.280 and when they were first out, when I was picturing 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.760 them just being treated as these sort of components you 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:00.760 might have sentimental value to it was it was different, 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:05.480 but once they become cash, yeah, it's not really an 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:08.120 acceptable thing to bake into your game. 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.559 So just to sort of get the narrative right, can 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:33.839 you just give the quick overview of how long were 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:38.720 you involved? You're the creator of Magic the Gathering Wizards 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:42.520 of the Coast. It existed as a game publishing company 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:46.600 prior to you linking up with them, I think, and 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:48.920 then obviously it took off. How long were you sort 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.600 of involved with the business of Magic. 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:56.120 I was with Wizards until about two thousand and one, 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.600 so that was about eight years. I mean, I guess 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:02.880 maybe ten years if you go back before Magic was published, 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:05.600 since technically I guess I was working for them then. 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:09.360 But yeah, one Hasbro bought Wizards. I was around for 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:11.520 a little while, but then went off on my own. 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:14.520 So Richard, just going back to the very beginning when 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:16.560 you actually came up with the game. I think I 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:21.520 read somewhere that you're a mathematician or you studied mathematics 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:25.120 at university. Did that influence the way the game was 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:25.840 designed at all? 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:32.040 I was actually teaching math at the college level and 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:37.280 it probably did influence the design of Magic. But I 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:41.840 always like to point out that when you're a game designer, 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:46.320 sort of all subjects are grist for the mill, just 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:50.520 like being an author. So if you had an economics 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:56.520 PhD or studied literature or anything, it will affect what 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.360 you write about and it'll affect what sort of games 0:14:59.400 --> 0:14:59.680 you make. 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:02.320 And Arca. I want to bring you in as well, 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.360 because of course you are now working with Richard at 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:09.720 the new gaming company Popularium. Did you play Magic when 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:10.680 you were younger. 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:13.840 Yes, yes I did, And you know, I grew up 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:18.080 in India and it was a it was a very 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:22.360 insulated community when it came to came to games pretty much, 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.320 you know, people cared about cricket and that was pretty 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:29.640 much it. So I had some cousins over here in 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.480 the US who would come by and introduce me to, 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.840 you know, cool things that they were doing, and obviously 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:39.680 magic was a big thing. So one summer they came 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:44.000 over and this was I think, yeah, ninety four, ninety 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:46.400 five something like that, they came to visit and they 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:48.800 had these gods that they were playing, and you know, 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.800 I was I was someone who basically when I was 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:55.480 five six years old, I would take you know, I 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:57.960 would make my own versions of Monopoly and things like that. 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:00.760 So making games was something that was so when I 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.000 saw the cards, it was just like, you know, this 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:06.320 this world of wonder that just exploded. And obviously I 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.200 only had a handful of gods, so there's only so 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:11.240 much I could do. But I remember trying to teach 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.800 everyone I could how to play the game. So it 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:17.600 you know, just seeing his name on those gods and 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:21.360 you know, being here now with him. So when did 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:22.000 you know? 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.600 When did you know you wanted to make a career 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:29.320 in gaming? I mean, I imagine it's funny you said that 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:32.600 my daughter is really good. She's seven. She's really getting 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:35.400 it into Monopoly right now. It's the first game that 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.400 she's really into and that's really exciting, and she's starting 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:42.000 to develop strategy, et cetera. When in your mind did 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:46.440 it go from Okay, you love playing games. The cards 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:49.000 were sort of fascinating to you to thinking, oh, this 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:53.760 could be a career of building gameplay of various sorts. 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.440 Yeah, you know, and it sounds geezy, but it actually 0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:59.920 was around the time when I was eleven. I swear 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:04.080 schools because I switched cities that my parents were living in, 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:06.439 and it was the first time I was exposed to 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:10.199 a computer and programming. And as soon as I, you know, 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:12.840 it was like basic or something like that was the language. 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:14.560 And as soon as I got one and I started 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:18.119 like writing this quiz game and that's all I would do, 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:20.320 you know, when I was on lunch breaks and things 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:24.400 like that. So and then obviously I discovered actual games 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.679 and you know, got a computer at home and played 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.600 Doom and things like that, and then you know, people 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:30.920 would ask me, okay, what do you want to do 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:32.800 when you when you grow up, and we're like, oh, 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:35.120 I want to make video games, and often people were like, wait, 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:39.200 what are video games? So it was that's that's kind 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:42.120 of like why I immigrated through the US. I came 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.600 here to study computer science specifically because I wanted to 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.440 learn how to build games. And then it was fortunate 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.480 enough to join Xbox in the early days of Xbox 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.400 three sixty and that was, you know, the winding path 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:55.879 that took me to meet Richard and scaff who is 0:17:56.000 --> 0:18:00.000 Richard's game design partner. Back in twenty eleven twenty twelve, 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:03.159 when I was starting my first company and here we are. 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.320 I definitely want to get into the new game that 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:10.960 you're launching with Richard and how it's sort of maybe 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:13.800 similar and also different to Magic the Gathering. But before 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:17.399 we do, I just have a few more questions about magic. 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:21.520 Just let humor me and let me relive Tracy. 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.320 If I were interviewing the creator of Chess, I would 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:25.240 have a thousand questions. 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:29.480 So you go to town, So Richard, you know, you 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:34.159 described that analogy of Wizards of the Coast sort of 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.080 acting as the central bank and deciding at one point 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:39.600 to flood the market with new cards in order to 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:43.399 bring down prices in the secondary market and make it 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.520 more equitable so that everyone could have fun playing the game. 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:50.320 Can you talk a little bit more about what that 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:53.399 decision was actually, Like, you know, you're in the room 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:57.199 at Wizards of the Coast. What are those conversations that 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:58.440 are happening at that time? 0:18:59.440 --> 0:18:59.720 Wow? 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:04.400 Well, there were a lot of people involved with magic 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.280 and sort of on the sidelines of magic who saw 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:11.439 it as a fad, and they saw it like, you know, 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:16.200 I don't know what fads are. Cabbage patch kids, babys, 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:21.720 beanie babies. There you go, and uh, baseball cards, and 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.960 that when you had a speculation bubble, it was going 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:28.240 to crash and that was the and the best you 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:33.560 could do was ride that out. And UH, and and 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:36.560 I thought, and we in R and D thought that 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:40.240 that was, uh, that was not not going to be 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:42.520 healthy for the game. And we had some faith in 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.560 the game in the sense that we had been playing 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:47.880 with the first set of cards for over two years 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:51.920 and and the play the playtesters were just hooked on it. 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:56.240 They loved it. And so if if it crashes and 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:59.359 goes away, uh, you know that that that won't be 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:01.880 shared with any body, there won't be any long term 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:07.080 to the to the game. And uh So within Wizards 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:11.359 there were lots of very heated arguments that you know 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:15.040 that if you overprinted, some people believed it was going 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:16.960 to crash and then we were, you know, basically the 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:20.760 game was done. And other people who thought, if you 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:24.080 overprint it and it crashes, that'll give players an opportunity 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:29.800 to actually play the game. And since, uh, since I 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:35.000 was a committed crasher, and the president of the company, UH, 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:40.239 Peter Peter Adkinson took my advice seriously. He was a 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:43.760 committed crasher, and so we went through with that, and 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:47.919 and it really the the the sort of the reputation 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:51.280 that the set which crashed it Fallen Empires got was 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:55.639 very bad. I mean it looked, you know, people people 0:20:55.680 --> 0:21:00.040 hated it. They hated the set, and uh, but it 0:20:59.920 --> 0:21:02.879 wasn't about how it actually played. It was about the 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:05.520 fact that it was cheap. It was they could they 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:09.960 could buy it remaindered. But you know, the number of 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:16.760 players just exploded after that, and and we we began 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:21.560 to reformulate how we printed the cards to make it 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:25.800 so that anybody who joined the game wouldn't have to 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:31.159 pay secondary prices, secondary market prices that were substantially above 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:34.480 buy from the company. 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.159 Well, so I understand the sort of and I like 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:40.080 the way you put it. You're a committed crasher. You 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:42.800 want people to play the game, you want low prices, 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:46.760 and that's I think that's awesome or it sounds really cool. 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:51.160 But it still seems that even within the committed crasher philosophy, 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:53.560 the challenge may not be, Okay, you want to have 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:55.800 the cards cheap so everyone can play them, but you 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:59.040 still need to get the proportions right in terms of 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.720 you can't There still has to be some variability between 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:06.280 the really powerful cards can't be printed as much as 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:08.719 the less powerful cards. There has to be some rarity. 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:13.320 How do you calibrate that aspect of it such that 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:16.960 you get the proportion of powerful to less powerful cards 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:20.760 right even within the crash mentality, the crash framework. 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:27.400 So there's a misapprehension there that's underlying your question, which 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:31.520 is I was also from the start a big advocate 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:35.800 of not making the rare cards more powerful. Now there 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:40.120 were more powerful rare cards. But if you make the 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:45.920 common cards very broadly powerful, generally useful, easy to use, 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:51.720 then people who buy not too many decks have less 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:54.800