1 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway. 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: And I'm Joe. Wasn't thal Joe? 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: Did you ever play Magic the Gathering? 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 3: No? 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 2: Really, I've never played it. The only game I mean, 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 2: I spent some time playing chess, and I yeah, I've 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 2: talked about on the show before. And then outside of that, 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 2: it's like I never had the capacity in my life 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 2: to like really learn new games. So it's like, you 11 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 2: know what, I'm gonna play chess, try to get better 12 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 2: out of play on my phone. But I've never like 13 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 2: then like I want to play some other game. 14 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: Man, you need to branch out. 15 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 4: I know. 16 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 2: Well, I just don't want to start. You know what 17 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 2: the thing is, I don't want to start from the beginning. 18 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: I'm just like, I'm like too old for that. 19 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: That's how you've learned new things. Okay, Well, speaking of 20 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: being old, I spent countless hours in middle school playing 21 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: Magic the Gathering. It was a huge thing in Let's see, 22 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: this would have been around ninety four, ninety five, and 23 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: almost everyone I knew at the time was playing it. 24 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 2: Where were you living in ninety five? 25 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: I was in Chicago, Chicago, So that's partly why. And 26 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: you know, every recess was taken up with Magic, the 27 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: gathering tournaments, and I really enjoyed playing, but for me, 28 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: the collectibility of the cards was probably more interesting. I 29 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: was obsessed with the cards. 30 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 2: One of my best friend's younger brother was like, really 31 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 2: obsessed with the cards in the game. Oh, I got 32 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 2: the Wall of Brambles or whatever it is? Is that 33 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 2: a card? 34 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 3: No, that's not. 35 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: I don't think so, although it sounds like it could be, 36 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: to be fair, I remember I had no it is there's. 37 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 2: A card called Wall of Brambles. But I think anyway, 38 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: I just remember that, you know, I think it's, oh, look, 39 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 2: you can buy one for twenty cents, so I guess 40 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: it wasn't a very value card anyway. I was like 41 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 2: around people who were really into their cards. I was 42 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: Magic adjacent. I have had friends who play it. I 43 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 2: didn't realize up until you played it. I was like 44 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 2: sometimes when I would go like to like the bookstore 45 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:13,679 Speaker 2: and play chess or the game store, the or it'd 46 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: be other people playing. So I was around the game, 47 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 2: but I just never played it myself. 48 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: Man, I spent so much time. I had so many cards, 49 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: I had valuable cards. I had a Chavon Dragon at 50 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: one point, and I really thanks show what. 51 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 4: Wow? 52 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: Okay, but this brings me to a serious Odd Lots 53 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: esque topic, which is Magic the Gathering is really interesting, 54 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: not just because it was one of the possibly the 55 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: most successful card game of all time, but it had 56 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: a lot of sort of economic aspects to it. So 57 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: there was the card collection, and then you can imagine 58 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: within the card collection aspect of it. Obviously the goal 59 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: is to play and win the game, but then you 60 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: had this whole sort of market spring up around these 61 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: super valuable cards, and there is a big discussion about 62 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: whether or not the value of the cards was actually 63 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 1: making the gameplay worse. 64 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 65 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 2: I so this I'm familiar with, and I get. You know, intuitively, 66 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 2: you could sort of like get this phenomenon right, because 67 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 2: a card can be useful in the game, but a 68 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 2: card could also just be like a valuable thing that 69 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,959 Speaker 2: people buy and sell on eBay or Magic the Gathering 70 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 2: online exchange things like that. But then the question is 71 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 2: like do they align? Does the collection of the cards 72 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 2: lead to optimal gameplay, suboptimal gameplay, etc. Like you could 73 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 2: see how like the value of a card from a 74 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: monetary standpoint, and the value of a card from a 75 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: gameplay standpoint might be like linear related, but might not 76 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 2: be like perfectly aligned. 77 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 3: Right. 78 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: And the other interesting thing is Wizards of the Coast, 79 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: the company that actually made Magic, at various times they 80 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: tried to fit this problem. So they almost acted like 81 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: a central bank of the cards in terms of issuance, 82 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: like they would increase the supply of parts or decrease 83 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: the supply of rare cards as needed to make the 84 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: game more interesting. So that's kind of fun too. But anyway, 85 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: I could go on about Magic for many hours still, 86 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 1: but I am very very excited to say that today 87 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: we're going to be speaking with the creator of Magic, 88 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: the gathering. We have Richard Garfield on the line all 89 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: the way from Sydney, Australia, and we also have his 90 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 1: colleague Arca Ray, the president and technical director of Popularium, 91 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: which is the new gaming company that he's setting up 92 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 1: with Richard. So very excited to have them both on 93 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: the show. Richard and Arca, thank you so much for 94 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: joining our thoughts. 95 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 4: Well, hello, it's a pleasure to be here. Love talking 96 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:53,679 Speaker 4: about games, all right. 97 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 3: Thank you both really appreciate I really appreciate your having 98 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 3: us here. We're really excited to be here. 99 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 2: I hope so many sarcastic tone to Tracy was not 100 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: in any way coming off as dismissive towards the game. 101 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 3: Maybe it was. 102 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: Actually blocking Trady. 103 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 2: But I do want not want, I want to make 104 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 2: it clear that I have no condescension whatsoever to the game. 105 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 2: So I just want to get I feel bad about 106 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: that already. 107 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 3: Anyways, I think I think you set up a lot 108 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 3: of there for us to get into it with Richard, 109 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 3: So let's let's let's do it. Yeah. 110 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 4: I wanted to say that back in the nineties, I 111 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 4: thought that playing one game like chess was like reading 112 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:41,679 Speaker 4: one book or watching one I very quickly got past 113 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 4: that because I realized games have this really special thing 114 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 4: where the more you play them for a lot of games, 115 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 4: the better they get. And so there's there's something which 116 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 4: doesn't really line up with a lot of the other media. 117 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 4: So so I think that is a perfectly good way. 118 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 2: To be Well, there's a very good there's a very 119 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 2: good observation. Maybe I should play more games. 120 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: Joe over here just reading one book all his life 121 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: past that, So Richard, maybe just to begin with you know, 122 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: I use the sort of economics framing to describe some 123 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: aspects of Magic, But do you think that that's like 124 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: the right way of thinking about it as a sort 125 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: of ecosystem or market of cards. 126 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 4: Yes, I think it's the most important thing with a 127 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 4: game like Magic is the economics around the cards. And 128 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,679 Speaker 4: it doesn't take much to shift the game from being 129 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 4: something which isn't primarily a game, but is more an 130 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 4: economic tool. And that is in fact, you mentioned that 131 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 4: Wizards acted like a central bank. Who was very much 132 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 4: the case back in the nineties maybe ninety five, where 133 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 4: the game, the price of the game was so out 134 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 4: of control. Uh, there was the speculation bubble, and and 135 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 4: there was a conflict within the company. A lot of 136 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 4: people thought this was amazing because who doesn't want the 137 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 4: product to hit the hit the shelves and immediately be 138 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 4: worth you know, three times as much. But from the 139 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 4: people who were actually making the game, like me, it 140 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 4: was terrifying because it if you can't afford the game, 141 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 4: you can't play it. If you can't play it, then 142 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 4: it's not really a game. So we very intentionally overprinted 143 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 4: the set Fallen Empires and and the market crashed hard, 144 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 4: and people said that was the end of the game 145 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:48,559 Speaker 4: and on the other but as it worked out, play 146 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 4: sprang up because at its route, it's a it's a 147 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 4: it's a it's a game, it's a strong game, and 148 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 4: the community loved the game and and uh and then 149 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 4: you know, it flourished. So ever since then, I've been 150 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 4: really skeptical of games and game companies which are intentionally 151 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 4: trying to keep the prices of their cards or components high. 152 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 2: You know one thing, and I definitely I don't know 153 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 2: if we want to even go down the store. I 154 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 2: mean I certainly had that thought, Like in twenty twenty 155 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 2: one when they were trying to do like and if 156 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: T related games. It's like it was the point to 157 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 2: play the game, or is the point to think? It 158 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 2: didn't seem like any of those games were fun something 159 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 2: I'm curious though, in nineteen ninety five, we didn't you know, eBay, 160 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: I don't think it really existed by ninety five barely. 161 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 2: I mean, if it did, it barely did hardly anyone 162 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: was using it. How at Wizards of the Coast were 163 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 2: even monitor were you able to get like real time 164 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 2: or semi real time feedback on price to find that 165 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 2: optimal equilibrium between the value of the cards and the 166 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 2: amount of gameplay. 167 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 4: There was I'm not sure what tools were being used, 168 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 4: but I know we had data, and in fact the 169 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 4: data was I'm not sure about eBay. It might have 170 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 4: been eBay, but the data was so clear that I 171 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 4: know at least one doctoral thesis that was put together 172 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 4: using data from Magic the gathering and the idea there 173 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 4: was that was that. The person who did it, the 174 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 4: one I know of, was Dave Riley. He found it 175 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 4: as a perfect tool to test different auctions to see 176 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 4: how that affected the final prices of the sales. 177 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: That's super interesting, so, Richard. One of the things that 178 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: was sort of built into the game, at least initially 179 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: was the idea of actually playing for anti so if 180 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: you lost, you would have to give up a card 181 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: from your deck your opponent, and it was sort of 182 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: one way of actually building up your decks and you know, 183 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: becoming an even better player. How come you built that 184 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: aspect of it into the game. 185 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 4: When we began the game, I did not anticipate it 186 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 4: being the success it was, and in fact I expected 187 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 4: players to buy one to four decks maybe, and so 188 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 4: I wanted to make sure that there was some method 189 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 4: for there to be a variety in what players had 190 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 4: even if they stopped buying cards. Now, of course they 191 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 4: can trade, and I expected that to be a part 192 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 4: of the game, but I also knew that there were 193 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 4: people uncomfortable with trading, so I thought that Anti would 194 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 4: be a good way to get that circulation of cards. 195 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 4: And it also acted as something of a leveler between decks. 196 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 4: If you've got a very valuable deck, then you're going 197 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 4: to be anting more valuable cards. This idea there were 198 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,719 Speaker 4: some dedicated advocates of it. It was a very exciting way 199 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 4: to play, but it was pretty clear very early on 200 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 4: that we were going to have to drop it because 201 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 4: so many people hated losing the cards and so and so. 202 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 4: I imagined by the second expansion there were no more 203 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 4: ANTI cards the and it was phased out. 204 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 3: Joe. 205 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: One of my greatest triumphs as an eleven year old 206 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: was I won a signed card in Magic the gathering. 207 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: It was signed by the artist, and the person I 208 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: wanted from was very upset because we didn't you know, 209 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: we're all ten or eleven year old kids at the time. 210 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: We didn't have a lot of signed cards circulating among us. 211 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 2: Can I say I did not realize that the card loss. 212 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 2: I sort of assumed that still existed, that you could 213 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 2: lose your card. It shows you how much that I've 214 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: underd that I knew about magic. I for some reason 215 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 2: I thought maybe that was still part of it. But 216 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 2: I could see that would seem really stressful, and I 217 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 2: would not want to collect a deck, or I would 218 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 2: not want to be a parent buying decks for my kids, 219 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 2: my thirteen year old kids, and then having them lose 220 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 2: them during lunch at the game. So I could see 221 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 2: why that wasn't a particularly stable thank you. 222 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 4: I should want to interject there on that though, that 223 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 4: like today, it would be completely a non starter. And 224 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 4: one of the one of the things was that when 225 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 4: it was published, we didn't see them as being valuable 226 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 4: in the way they are today. Very quickly there was 227 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 4: a price settle on them, and so once there's a 228 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 4: price settle on them, they actually are gambling when they 229 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 4: play for antics. 230 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, fine, but I don't know if you want kids gambling, 231 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 2: I guess yeah. 232 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 4: And yeah, back when when it was play test cards 233 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 4: and when they were first out, when I was picturing 234 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 4: them just being treated as these sort of components you 235 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 4: might have sentimental value to it was it was different, 236 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 4: but once they become cash, yeah, it's not really an 237 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 4: acceptable thing to bake into your game. 238 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 2: So just to sort of get the narrative right, can 239 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,839 Speaker 2: you just give the quick overview of how long were 240 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 2: you involved? You're the creator of Magic the Gathering Wizards 241 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 2: of the Coast. It existed as a game publishing company 242 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: prior to you linking up with them, I think, and 243 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 2: then obviously it took off. How long were you sort 244 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 2: of involved with the business of Magic. 245 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 4: I was with Wizards until about two thousand and one, 246 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 4: so that was about eight years. I mean, I guess 247 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 4: maybe ten years if you go back before Magic was published, 248 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 4: since technically I guess I was working for them then. 249 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 4: But yeah, one Hasbro bought Wizards. I was around for 250 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 4: a little while, but then went off on my own. 251 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: So Richard, just going back to the very beginning when 252 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: you actually came up with the game. I think I 253 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: read somewhere that you're a mathematician or you studied mathematics 254 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: at university. Did that influence the way the game was 255 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: designed at all? 256 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 4: I was actually teaching math at the college level and 257 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 4: it probably did influence the design of Magic. But I 258 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 4: always like to point out that when you're a game designer, 259 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 4: sort of all subjects are grist for the mill, just 260 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 4: like being an author. So if you had an economics 261 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 4: PhD or studied literature or anything, it will affect what 262 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 4: you write about and it'll affect what sort of games 263 00:14:59,400 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 4: you make. 264 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: And Arca. I want to bring you in as well, 265 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: because of course you are now working with Richard at 266 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: the new gaming company Popularium. Did you play Magic when 267 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: you were younger. 268 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 3: Yes, yes I did, And you know, I grew up 269 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 3: in India and it was a it was a very 270 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 3: insulated community when it came to came to games pretty much, 271 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 3: you know, people cared about cricket and that was pretty 272 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 3: much it. So I had some cousins over here in 273 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 3: the US who would come by and introduce me to, 274 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 3: you know, cool things that they were doing, and obviously 275 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 3: magic was a big thing. So one summer they came 276 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 3: over and this was I think, yeah, ninety four, ninety 277 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 3: five something like that, they came to visit and they 278 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 3: had these gods that they were playing, and you know, 279 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 3: I was I was someone who basically when I was 280 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 3: five six years old, I would take you know, I 281 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 3: would make my own versions of Monopoly and things like that. 282 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 3: So making games was something that was so when I 283 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 3: saw the cards, it was just like, you know, this 284 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 3: this world of wonder that just exploded. And obviously I 285 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 3: only had a handful of gods, so there's only so 286 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 3: much I could do. But I remember trying to teach 287 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 3: everyone I could how to play the game. So it 288 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 3: you know, just seeing his name on those gods and 289 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 3: you know, being here now with him. So when did 290 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 3: you know? 291 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: When did you know you wanted to make a career 292 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 2: in gaming? I mean, I imagine it's funny you said that 293 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 2: my daughter is really good. She's seven. She's really getting 294 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 2: it into Monopoly right now. It's the first game that 295 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 2: she's really into and that's really exciting, and she's starting 296 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 2: to develop strategy, et cetera. When in your mind did 297 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 2: it go from Okay, you love playing games. The cards 298 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 2: were sort of fascinating to you to thinking, oh, this 299 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 2: could be a career of building gameplay of various sorts. 300 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and it sounds geezy, but it actually 301 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 3: was around the time when I was eleven. I swear 302 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 3: schools because I switched cities that my parents were living in, 303 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 3: and it was the first time I was exposed to 304 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 3: a computer and programming. And as soon as I, you know, 305 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 3: it was like basic or something like that was the language. 306 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 3: And as soon as I got one and I started 307 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 3: like writing this quiz game and that's all I would do, 308 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 3: you know, when I was on lunch breaks and things 309 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 3: like that. So and then obviously I discovered actual games 310 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 3: and you know, got a computer at home and played 311 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 3: Doom and things like that, and then you know, people 312 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 3: would ask me, okay, what do you want to do 313 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 3: when you when you grow up, and we're like, oh, 314 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 3: I want to make video games, and often people were like, wait, 315 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 3: what are video games? So it was that's that's kind 316 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 3: of like why I immigrated through the US. I came 317 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 3: here to study computer science specifically because I wanted to 318 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 3: learn how to build games. And then it was fortunate 319 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 3: enough to join Xbox in the early days of Xbox 320 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 3: three sixty and that was, you know, the winding path 321 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 3: that took me to meet Richard and scaff who is 322 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 3: Richard's game design partner. Back in twenty eleven twenty twelve, 323 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 3: when I was starting my first company and here we are. 324 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: I definitely want to get into the new game that 325 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: you're launching with Richard and how it's sort of maybe 326 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: similar and also different to Magic the Gathering. But before 327 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: we do, I just have a few more questions about magic. 328 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: Just let humor me and let me relive Tracy. 329 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 2: If I were interviewing the creator of Chess, I would 330 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 2: have a thousand questions. 331 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: So you go to town, So Richard, you know, you 332 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: described that analogy of Wizards of the Coast sort of 333 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: acting as the central bank and deciding at one point 334 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: to flood the market with new cards in order to 335 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: bring down prices in the secondary market and make it 336 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: more equitable so that everyone could have fun playing the game. 337 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit more about what that 338 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: decision was actually, Like, you know, you're in the room 339 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 1: at Wizards of the Coast. What are those conversations that 340 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: are happening at that time? 341 00:18:59,440 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 3: Wow? 342 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 4: Well, there were a lot of people involved with magic 343 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 4: and sort of on the sidelines of magic who saw 344 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 4: it as a fad, and they saw it like, you know, 345 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 4: I don't know what fads are. Cabbage patch kids, babys, 346 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 4: beanie babies. There you go, and uh, baseball cards, and 347 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 4: that when you had a speculation bubble, it was going 348 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 4: to crash and that was the and the best you 349 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 4: could do was ride that out. And UH, and and 350 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 4: I thought, and we in R and D thought that 351 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 4: that was, uh, that was not not going to be 352 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 4: healthy for the game. And we had some faith in 353 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 4: the game in the sense that we had been playing 354 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 4: with the first set of cards for over two years 355 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 4: and and the play the playtesters were just hooked on it. 356 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 4: They loved it. And so if if it crashes and 357 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 4: goes away, uh, you know that that that won't be 358 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 4: shared with any body, there won't be any long term 359 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 4: to the to the game. And uh So within Wizards 360 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 4: there were lots of very heated arguments that you know 361 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 4: that if you overprinted, some people believed it was going 362 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 4: to crash and then we were, you know, basically the 363 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 4: game was done. And other people who thought, if you 364 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 4: overprint it and it crashes, that'll give players an opportunity 365 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 4: to actually play the game. And since, uh, since I 366 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 4: was a committed crasher, and the president of the company, UH, 367 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:40,239 Speaker 4: Peter Peter Adkinson took my advice seriously. He was a 368 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 4: committed crasher, and so we went through with that, and 369 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 4: and it really the the the sort of the reputation 370 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 4: that the set which crashed it Fallen Empires got was 371 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 4: very bad. I mean it looked, you know, people people 372 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 4: hated it. They hated the set, and uh, but it 373 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 4: wasn't about how it actually played. It was about the 374 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 4: fact that it was cheap. It was they could they 375 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 4: could buy it remaindered. But you know, the number of 376 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 4: players just exploded after that, and and we we began 377 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 4: to reformulate how we printed the cards to make it 378 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 4: so that anybody who joined the game wouldn't have to 379 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 4: pay secondary prices, secondary market prices that were substantially above 380 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 4: buy from the company. 381 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 2: Well, so I understand the sort of and I like 382 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 2: the way you put it. You're a committed crasher. You 383 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 2: want people to play the game, you want low prices, 384 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: and that's I think that's awesome or it sounds really cool. 385 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 2: But it still seems that even within the committed crasher philosophy, 386 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 2: the challenge may not be, Okay, you want to have 387 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 2: the cards cheap so everyone can play them, but you 388 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 2: still need to get the proportions right in terms of 389 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 2: you can't There still has to be some variability between 390 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 2: the really powerful cards can't be printed as much as 391 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,719 Speaker 2: the less powerful cards. There has to be some rarity. 392 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: How do you calibrate that aspect of it such that 393 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 2: you get the proportion of powerful to less powerful cards 394 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 2: right even within the crash mentality, the crash framework. 395 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 4: So there's a misapprehension there that's underlying your question, which 396 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 4: is I was also from the start a big advocate 397 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 4: of not making the rare cards more powerful. Now there 398 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 4: were more powerful rare cards. But if you make the 399 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 4: common cards very broadly powerful, generally useful, easy to use, 400 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 4: then people who buy not too many decks have less 401 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 4: of the disadvantage against somebody who gets a lot of decks. 402 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 4: And so this was early on one of the ideas. 403 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 4: I had lots of ideas. Some of them worked like this, 404 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 4: and some of them didn't like anti. But this approach 405 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 4: makes it so that so that your your power goes up, 406 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 4: you know, logarithmically, as you purchase decks at the beginning 407 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 4: rather than linearly. And and and so now the value 408 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 4: of the cards, that's something different. It does have something 409 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 4: to do with the power of the cards. And there 410 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 4: were powerful rare cards. I certainly wouldn't deny that. But 411 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 4: one of the things that I enjoyed doing when Magic 412 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 4: first came out is going to game stores across the 413 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 4: country and and playing against players gunslinging we called it. 414 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 4: I think that became a term we stopped using. And 415 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 4: I would play against them with the deck of all 416 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 4: common cards, and my record against the you know, the 417 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 4: the champs of the stores was eighty percent or something 418 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 4: like that. And people would bring out their their their 419 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 4: x with their black Lotuses and their vampire Shiven dragons, 420 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 4: and I would clean their clocks and it would be all, 421 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 4: you know, top to bottom common cards. And it's just 422 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 4: because you know, I've been playing many years longer than 423 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 4: them and was a better player and recognized the power 424 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 4: that was there. And the common cards, now, the best decks, 425 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 4: of course, are going to be a mixture. But but 426 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 4: you look at the top decks even played today, and 427 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 4: there will be a good, you know, good trunk of 428 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 4: common cards that are being played by all the players. 429 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 2: I guess I just sort of assumed, Tracy that there 430 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 2: must be must have been some relationship between like, if 431 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 2: you have these really valuable cards, they must be overwhelmingly powerful. 432 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 2: So I did not realize that also, it's just sort 433 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 2: of funny to imagine, you know, the the ultimate creator 434 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 2: of the game popping into the local the local D 435 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 2: and D board game store and whatever town and cleaning 436 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 2: all the local right. 437 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: Some guy who spent countless hours, you know, building the 438 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: deck ofvaluable cards suddenly losing to someone who's playing with 439 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: some really common ones. But just on this note, Richard, 440 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: you mentioned the Blackloadus card, which of course is probably 441 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: the most famous card in all of magic history. And 442 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: I looked up on one website before we have this conversation. 443 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,719 Speaker 1: I think the pricing for like the most rare version 444 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: of the Black Looadus was something like twenty two thousand dollars. 445 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: I have no idea if that's accurate or not. It 446 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: seems slightly inflated. 447 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 2: But are you gait I see half a million? Really? 448 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 1: Wow? 449 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah? 450 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 4: I think I think twenty two thousand is I saw 451 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 4: an article about a proxy black Lotus that is one 452 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 4: that the players made selling for some incredible amount, huh, 453 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 4: like twenty thousand dollars, but. 454 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: The actual one is closer to half a million? 455 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 3: Is that right? 456 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: Maybe I was looking at the wrong version. 457 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, five hundred and forty thousand have access to my 458 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 2: mark twenty twenty three in auction house six hundred and 459 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 2: fifty thousand for a black Loader. 460 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: Okay, well this gets to my question, are you surprised 461 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: at the secondary market values for some of these cards nowadays? 462 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: And especially because this kind of gets to the other 463 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 1: thing that you did in order to make gameplay more 464 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: interesting and more fair. Is I think at one point 465 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: for the Pro League, and yes, Joe, there is a 466 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: Pro Magic League, you banned the use of certain cards 467 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 1: like I think BLACKLOADUS, like the really powerful cards you 468 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 1: couldn't play with anymore. So I guess my question is 469 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: why do they still have or seem to have so 470 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 1: much value in the secondary market if they're not allowed 471 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: in some of the games. 472 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 4: That is one of the most important tools we used 473 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 4: for making the game accessible to players coming into it. 474 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 4: That is not making it so they felt like they 475 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 4: had to bla BLACKLOADUS. The tournaments and the environment which 476 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 4: Wizards supports is only the last couple of years worth 477 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 4: of cards, and so if they're beyond that, players can 478 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 4: still play them, of course because they own them and 479 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 4: there will still be events set up around them. But 480 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 4: that's not where the focus of the companies of tournaments 481 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 4: and play is which means if you come into the game, 482 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 4: you know that you're not competing against black Lotuses and 483 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 4: all the old cards. And so it wasn't just Black 484 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 4: Lotus that was banned. It was basically any card that 485 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 4: was too old became I forget what they call it, 486 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 4: but I don't know, a legacy card, and those there 487 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 4: were special legacy events, but that wasn't part of the 488 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 4: current game environments, and that was one way we managed 489 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 4: to keep it so that the card prices were under control, 490 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 4: and yet you have this long term collectibility, so it 491 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 4: was collectible like stamps, but not like Panie Baby. 492 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't realize that the older cards were banned 493 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 1: in pro play. I guess I probably didn't play Magic 494 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 1: long enough for that to kind of be an issue. 495 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: But that's interesting. 496 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 3: Well, to clarify there is there are like two formats. 497 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 3: Is like standard in the other one. The standard is 498 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 3: the rotation that Richard is talking about. You can play 499 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 3: anything that's modern, which is like I think after two 500 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 3: thousand and something, it's considered modern in like non pro 501 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 3: tournaments and so on. But there is also a band 502 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 3: list which you know Richard might want to talk about 503 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 3: which Blackloaders and cards are on which which will never 504 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 3: be reprinted, which does contribute to a great extent to 505 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 3: the incredible value something like a Blackloaders because it will 506 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 3: there are there's a possibility for a legacy card, as 507 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 3: Richard said, to be potentially reprinted and it's considered exactly 508 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 3: the same card as far as the gameplay is concerned. 509 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 3: But there will never be another Blackloaders printed because of 510 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 3: many interesting reasons, which I don't know if we have 511 00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 3: time or Richard. 512 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's actually worth pointing out, like it's a very 513 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 4: sticky relationship between the power of the card, how many 514 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 4: have been printed, and whether it's available of whether it's 515 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 4: in tournaments. So, for example, very early on, we realized 516 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 4: that when we reprinted an old card which had some 517 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 4: cachet to it, the price on the secondary market of 518 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 4: that card would go up. And the reason for that 519 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 4: is because that meant the card was legal for tournaments 520 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 4: because it wasn't an old card anymore. You could bring 521 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 4: your older version which might have different art or a 522 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 4: different cardboard or something like that. But it seemed contradictory 523 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 4: that you're printing more of them, and now the price 524 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 4: goes up. 525 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: Arka, I have to ask, now, what was your I 526 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: don't want to say most valuable card because it kind 527 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: of undermines a lot of the purpose of the game, 528 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: But what was your favorite card that you accumulated when 529 00:29:58,800 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: you were. 530 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 3: Playing that I was playing Magic. Probably the most was 531 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 3: when I was at Microsoft, just because you know, that 532 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 3: was one of the things that we we did, and 533 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 3: at the time, I got really into black, like all 534 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 3: sorts of combinations of black, so I got a you know, 535 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 3: got into black, white, black, red, et cetera. So there 536 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 3: was one one card that I think it was a 537 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 3: gold card that was printed in like M eleven or 538 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 3: something like that, that was called the Dark Tutelage, and 539 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 3: that just had the most the coolest art on it 540 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 3: if if if you want to look it up of 541 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 3: this guy with the blindfold guy. There was this blindfold 542 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 3: and eyeballs and this like demon looking character like giving. 543 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 3: I was just, yeah, it's a it's a really fun 544 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 3: like you know, like it combos really well with red 545 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 3: red cards also, so I just I just really enjoyed 546 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 3: the mechanic, the both the life gain and life loss 547 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 3: mechanic as resources. 548 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: I have an embarrassing confession, which is I was scared 549 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: of the the Black Cards when I was growing up. 550 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: I like, I never played with them because some of 551 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: the images of like so the Black Cards, for people 552 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: who don't know, are sort of associated with like death 553 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: and scary things, and you know, there's lots of demons 554 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: and pictures of skeletons and things like that, and they 555 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: freaked me out when I was little. I was scared 556 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: of them. 557 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 2: Okay, Uh, can we talk a little bit about the 558 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 2: new company and maybe ARCA. Why don't you describe what 559 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 2: is popularium and in the world of gaming? What are 560 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 2: you trying to solve? 561 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 3: What? Uh? What? 562 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 2: What? What do you what do you want to do 563 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 2: that isn't being done in elsewhere in the gaming world. 564 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 3: That's a great question, and you know, I think it's 565 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 3: best answered a little bit through the story of how 566 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 3: actually we started Popularity and because yeah, I mean, on 567 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 3: one hand, I've been dreaming of, you know, starting a 568 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 3: games company since I was as a kid. But you 569 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 3: know how things go, Like I started my company, and 570 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 3: you know, I'm a technical person, so I got into 571 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 3: building enterprise software for a while, and that was all 572 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 3: fun and all that in a different way. But I 573 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 3: always want to come back to games, and I had 574 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 3: an opportunity a couple of years ago because of a 575 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 3: combination of events with my prior company and you know, 576 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 3: some availability of some some financing COVID, giving people the 577 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 3: opportunity to like basically become much more comfortable with completely 578 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 3: distributed development systems because you know, games especially has been 579 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 3: a very you know, you go in, you build games, 580 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 3: you know, and the whole like you know, classic crunch 581 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 3: mentality that you're sleeping under your desk before you ship. 582 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 3: So all of those things was like, you know, for me, 583 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 3: it was the right time to start thinking about putting 584 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 3: something together. And it was really accelerated by two things. 585 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 3: First was that for me, what has always been very 586 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 3: interesting is a games that essentially, through gameplay, create a 587 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 3: new format and then be generate narratives out of the 588 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 3: pure gameplay itself. And something that Richard's games have always 589 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 3: done is basically, whether or not you understand the lore 590 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 3: of the Magic Universe, let's say, or Netrunner or whatever 591 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 3: it might be, when you're playing the game, the game 592 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 3: is creating a narrative for you that duel that you're 593 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 3: having with summoning the specific creatures, the counters, you know, 594 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 3: the stack. It's it's like if you know, actually someone 595 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 3: should do it if they haven't, is you can actually 596 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 3: take the output of a magic game and maybe like 597 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 3: actually train a general awaya like an LLM or something 598 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 3: like that to actually output a wonderful narrative of like, 599 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 3: you know, what was the battle and that you know 600 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 3: is created purely through gameplay. And for me, we really 601 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 3: hadn't explored that that fully in a digital format. The 602 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 3: power of that fully in a digital format. And when 603 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 3: I when I started talking to Richard in twenty twenty one, 604 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,720 Speaker 3: late twenty twenty one about some of these ideas Richard 605 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,439 Speaker 3: and Scaff, you know, and richardian tell you about Scaff, 606 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 3: who's just an awesome person and you know in his 607 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 3: own right. My goal was that, Okay, what can I 608 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 3: do to create a playground for you guys where you 609 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 3: can take the ideas that you've been cooking for a 610 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 3: long time. And the thing that Richard and I and 611 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 3: Scaff resonated on pretty much right away, and we have 612 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 3: known each for a while, so we've kind of talked 613 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 3: about this over over time, was the idea of empowering 614 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 3: gamers to pursue their fun their way while also leaning 615 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 3: into gameplay innovation, because I think that one of the 616 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 3: things that doesn't really hold game gaming innovation back but 617 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,320 Speaker 3: definitely slows it down is once you know something works 618 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 3: for a certain group of people, a bunch of other money, 619 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 3: a bunch of money goes into building fact similies of 620 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 3: that because you know that people are going to have 621 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 3: fun in a certain way. And what's amazing another amazing 622 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 3: thing about Richard's work is that exactly what I was 623 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 3: talking about earlier with that whole like black approach, and 624 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 3: you know, with with basically you saying cracy that that 625 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 3: that you know, you were not really into the black 626 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 3: decks at all, And I can't imagine no, no, I'm 627 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 3: completely with you, Like you know some of this they 628 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 3: are genuinely not like pleasant things to look at. But 629 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 3: I can't imagine playing magic without you know, black cards. 630 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 3: But there's an entire like gamut of four such as 631 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 3: yourself who you know that's not so that is what's 632 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 3: so cool about. So how do we lean into innovation 633 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 3: while also empowering gamers to pursue the joy of gaming? 634 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 3: The fun of gaming in the way that they want 635 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 3: without feeling like, oh, you know, I'm not good enough 636 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 3: or my fun is not fun enough unless I'm winning 637 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 3: all the time. And that was my philosophy, and you 638 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 3: know what I want to lean into. And obviously we've 639 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 3: seen over and over again, and you know, while I 640 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 3: was at Microsoft, Beep built Xbox Life pretty much, you know, 641 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 3: from from the ground up. So I've seen like how 642 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 3: much how hard it is to keep toxicity out of communities. 643 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 3: And one of the ways that you can actually do 644 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 3: that is if from the germination of your game you 645 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 3: are letting people genuinely lean into fun and telling them, 646 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 3: you know what, no matter how you want to have fun, 647 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 3: it's okay, we will accommodate and so on. And then 648 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 3: what Richard you know, kind of had had in mind 649 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 3: was actually something that he had been thinking about and 650 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 3: working on for twenty plus years. And maybe Richard, I 651 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 3: want to maybe ask you to talk a little bit 652 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 3: about how things came together before we actually yeah, with 653 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 3: the company together. 654 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 4: Yeah. So this concept that I've been working on for 655 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 4: twenty plus years was something that had been gnawing at 656 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,240 Speaker 4: me ever since Magic came out, which was the way 657 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,359 Speaker 4: its popularity in some ways undercut one of the things 658 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 4: which I really loved about the game, and that was 659 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 4: that when you first play Magic, even today, when you 660 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 4: first play Magic, but originally very much so, it was 661 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 4: a game filled with sort of endless possibilities and treasures, 662 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 4: and your deck was distinct. It was yours and your 663 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 4: friends decks were distinct as well. You had the sense 664 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 4: that the world was infinite, infinite. But then when you 665 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 4: start playing more and begin to play tournaments, the emphasis 666 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 4: of the game is on constructed decks. That is, you 667 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 4: choose which cards you want to play, and you play them, 668 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 4: and they're readily available, so to become more like commodities. 669 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 4: And this is not the way we played originally. It's 670 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 4: a fun way to play, so I don't mean to 671 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 4: take away anything from players who love that way of playing, 672 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,840 Speaker 4: and there are plenty. But when we first played, we 673 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 4: played with this very limited pool and it was exciting 674 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 4: in sort of this different way. And so the way 675 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 4: I came up with to to recreate that was to 676 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 4: make it so that player's decks were unique. So that is, 677 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 4: when you get a deck, it's your deck, and you 678 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:44,839 Speaker 4: can trade the deck, but you can't break it up. 679 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 4: And so I wanted the back of the cards to 680 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 4: be unique, and it took a while for printing technology 681 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 4: to catch up with that. But Keyboards was the first 682 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 4: unique game, and every deck in that game is unique 683 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:10,360 Speaker 4: and has its own unique name, and and the the 684 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 4: the resulting play was so interesting and the audience for 685 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 4: it was so sort of thirsty for this, this sort 686 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 4: of gameplay that didn't involve making decks and collecting cards, 687 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 4: that I began to think about how to apply those 688 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,840 Speaker 4: ideas to other games. In particular, you would think that 689 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 4: even though printing technology took so long to catch up 690 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 4: to this concept, that digitally it shouldn't be that hard 691 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 4: to do. And when I was talking with Arka, he 692 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,839 Speaker 4: was asking what he could do to bring some of 693 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 4: our ideas to life. And I was just coming off 694 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 4: of dealing with many different companies who wanted games, but 695 00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 4: they were all very concerned with how limited they make 696 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,839 Speaker 4: it so that the cards were immediately valuable. They were 697 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 4: talking about like play to earn money, and and and 698 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,760 Speaker 4: and putting out a certain limited number so that people's 699 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,799 Speaker 4: initial investments go up. And so they were approaching the 700 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 4: games entirely as sort of this this well, what we 701 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 4: began with this economic they were building it on this 702 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 4: foundation of economics rather than on the foundation of gameplay. 703 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 4: So ARCA was was very interested in supporting this idea 704 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 4: of building the game on a foundation of gameplay. Uh 705 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 4: and and and deal with the economics as sort of 706 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,320 Speaker 4: a secondary thing, which is there to sort of maximize 707 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,319 Speaker 4: the enjoyment of the game to the player rather than 708 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 4: return on investment for the player. 709 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 2: Tracy. This reminds me, by the way, there is a 710 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 2: sort of corollary in the chess world, which is, you know, 711 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 2: you think of chess as a game, but so much 712 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 2: and it is, but so much of modern chess is 713 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 2: just sort of wrote memorization of the first fifteen to 714 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 2: twenty moves. And so there's this other version of chess 715 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 2: that I think Bobby Fisher came up with Fisher Random Chess, 716 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 2: in which you don't know in advance the order of 717 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 2: the pieces that are going to be so it's gameplay 718 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 2: from the beginning. There's like numerous ways that the pieces 719 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,800 Speaker 2: can be ordered on your back rank, so it's gameplay 720 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:24,400 Speaker 2: from the beginning. 721 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: I see, you don't have like the queen in the middle. 722 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, So what it does is you have to figure 723 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 2: out the game right away rather than you have twenty 724 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 2: five lines committed to memory. 725 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 1: Well that seems much more interesting. 726 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it theoretically, I think it's a better game. The 727 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 2: pros don't really play it, but I do think it's 728 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 2: widely considered to be more interesting gameplays. 729 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 3: But you know, but you know what's interesting is if 730 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 3: you I mean, I'm trying to I'm sure you've seen 731 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 3: this and scap and Richard will tell you all about 732 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 3: this also, But if you look at you know, folks 733 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 3: like Carlson, what they try to do in their games 734 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 3: is basically try to move to a position as quickly 735 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 3: as possible that has not been. 736 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 2: Seen its novelty. 737 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's that is exactly the for them. Glad 738 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 3: you picked that. That's exactly the analogy that you know. 739 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 3: What Richard explained is that like the idea of going 740 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 3: in with Okay, you know the cards, you know the 741 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 3: specifics of the units of power, but the combination, the 742 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 3: engine that that builds with the deck is not something 743 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 3: that you've ever seen before and that you have to 744 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,440 Speaker 3: figure out in real time, and that is what's you know, 745 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 3: interesting about it. 746 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: So Richard just touched on this idea of pay to play, 747 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: and you know the fact that there are games out 748 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,800 Speaker 1: there that kind of focus on building up the value 749 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: of existing assets or cards, and maybe this is one 750 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,319 Speaker 1: for both Arka and Richard, But how do you resist 751 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,360 Speaker 1: that temptation, like, how do you actually monetize the game? 752 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,720 Speaker 1: Because I imagine in the gaming industry the temptation now 753 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,879 Speaker 1: is to ring as much money as possible out of play. 754 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 1: And it does seem like some of these are you know, 755 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: expensive to run, expensive to design, expensive to produce, So 756 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: how do you manage to do it where others are 757 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,360 Speaker 1: focused very much on the revenue opportunities. 758 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 3: This goes back to the question traces are Joe asked earlier, 759 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 3: which is one of the fundamental philosophies that we have 760 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 3: behind doing this company because Richard, myself, John Scaffei, we 761 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,920 Speaker 3: all have done things in the past where you know, 762 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 3: at this point of time, we want to build something 763 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,839 Speaker 3: that brings us, you know, true joy and satisfaction. And 764 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 3: one of the things that we all very much agree 765 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 3: upon is that if you bring if you bring people 766 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:43,840 Speaker 3: through joy and true fund through gameplay, that translates to 767 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,239 Speaker 3: economics in a much more scalable way than if you 768 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:53,880 Speaker 3: try to build gameplay experiences that are optimized for economics, 769 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,719 Speaker 3: and you see this happening intentionally and unintentionally, you don't 770 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 3: have to just look at recent examples, like if you 771 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 3: go back and look at World of Warcraft and you 772 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,240 Speaker 3: know the amount of gold farming that was completely not legal, 773 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,280 Speaker 3: but it was used to happen all around the world, 774 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 3: and the amount of value that was created and transacted. 775 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,360 Speaker 3: Why because people wanted to use that utility, you know, 776 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 3: within within the game and Magic, you know, the fact 777 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,920 Speaker 3: that is just an example is an amazing, glorious example 778 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 3: of that phenomenon that has just lasted for for for 779 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,399 Speaker 3: decades at this point, which is if you create that 780 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 3: interactivity and you know, I don't mind saying is the 781 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,880 Speaker 3: one of the geniuses of Magic is this idea of 782 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,520 Speaker 3: massively modular gameplay. That is that is a term that 783 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 3: that I know Richard likes, of being able to let 784 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 3: people construct the pieces to build their piece of the 785 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 3: game in a way that is that is very flexible. 786 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:58,400 Speaker 3: If those two things come together, then the repeatability comes naturally. 787 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,000 Speaker 3: And I think that a lot of fo who try 788 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 3: to essentially start with the economics, start with the business 789 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 3: model and then retrofit the gameplay probably do themselves and 790 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,000 Speaker 3: their their gamers at a service. Anyway, That's something that you know, 791 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:13,959 Speaker 3: very passionate on my part, I don't want to shoot 792 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 3: if you had any thoughts. 793 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 4: On that, yeah, I would like to add to that. 794 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:23,839 Speaker 4: So there's been many games I've put out, and this 795 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 4: one we're working on is part of this where where 796 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,799 Speaker 4: there's some question as to how much value you give 797 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,879 Speaker 4: to the player who just dips their toe in, and 798 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 4: my philosophy on it is, if you have faith in 799 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,520 Speaker 4: the game, you give them lots of play value. That's 800 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,399 Speaker 4: why the common cards were powerful in Magic, and that's 801 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 4: why in KEYBOARDE you get your single deck has many 802 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 4: different avenues that you can play with, so it is 803 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,920 Speaker 4: not something where you play with it and immediately get bored. 804 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 4: There's many different things you can do with it. Now, 805 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:10,040 Speaker 4: the cynical would say, well, that is limiting your audience 806 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 4: because because people are going to buy one deck. That 807 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:18,480 Speaker 4: hasn't been my experience because this massive modularity gives a 808 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 4: world of variation which people want to explore. But it 809 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:24,840 Speaker 4: gives the opportunity for people to to get involved with 810 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,560 Speaker 4: a very uh with with with a very modest investment, 811 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,000 Speaker 4: and and so and so that's something we're talking about 812 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 4: with our game. And and I want to see that 813 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 4: that a player with a single character has sort of 814 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 4: can get an amazing amount of value from that and 815 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,839 Speaker 4: not feel particularly limited by that. 816 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:51,680 Speaker 3: Uh. 817 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,640 Speaker 4: And and that is with this this faith that you know, 818 00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,120 Speaker 4: some players will stop there and that'll be right for them, 819 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:02,160 Speaker 4: but other players will want to get different variations. 820 00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,719 Speaker 1: When does the new game Chaos Agents actually come out? 821 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,000 Speaker 3: It's a great question. So basically, you know, just to 822 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:15,479 Speaker 3: bring home the question from earlier, Richard sort of gave 823 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,880 Speaker 3: me this one pager this was end of twenty one 824 00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 3: early twenty two called Maelstrom that he had written up 825 00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,640 Speaker 3: around this idea of basically, how what would it be 826 00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:29,640 Speaker 3: if the deck of cards, Each card represented a unique 827 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 3: skill that together sciller ability, that together made up this 828 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,120 Speaker 3: globally unique superhero. So the idea would be to have 829 00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:42,879 Speaker 3: this entire large, you know, sixty plus heroes battling each other, 830 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,160 Speaker 3: and each hero would be controlled by this kind of 831 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,640 Speaker 3: unique invisible deck of cards in the background. And one 832 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:53,200 Speaker 3: of the things that Richard was sort of really into 833 00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,399 Speaker 3: at the time was this idea of auto battlers, which 834 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,560 Speaker 3: is another very interesting genre of games that I'm sure 835 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,160 Speaker 3: Richard can talk about for a long time. But this 836 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,600 Speaker 3: idea of auto battlers would would basically be that, you know, 837 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:06,880 Speaker 3: unlike games where you need a lot of input, a 838 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 3: lot of reflexes or twitch, an auto battler lets you 839 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 3: sort of make some decisions, sort of like almost like 840 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,799 Speaker 3: a football and American football coach make some decisions, call 841 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 3: the play and then see what happens, and then adapt 842 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,080 Speaker 3: and call the next place. So there's this lean forward, 843 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,239 Speaker 3: lean back experience. So Richard was like, what if we 844 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,480 Speaker 3: blended these two things? And I was like, that sounds 845 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:27,360 Speaker 3: amazing cool. 846 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 1: Game chat experience, something new it is. 847 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,480 Speaker 3: And that's obviously like for people like me who have 848 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,399 Speaker 3: like not played competitively for like ten plus years, that's 849 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,000 Speaker 3: the only way that you know, I can play something 850 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,960 Speaker 3: like that. But what was super cool is that then 851 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,640 Speaker 3: you know, when we hear Richard Garfield, we think card games. 852 00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:48,920 Speaker 3: And my idea was that, okay, we're going to build 853 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 3: something like Heartstone, but in a big way. And you know, 854 00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:55,480 Speaker 3: my really good friend John Bankert from from Xbox was 855 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,319 Speaker 3: actually running the Heartstone product team, so so my to 856 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,160 Speaker 3: my great joy. He was like, yeah, you know what, 857 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,080 Speaker 3: Richard's on. All the battlers, I love them. Let's let's 858 00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,880 Speaker 3: let's jump on. But then what happened was when Richard 859 00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:10,440 Speaker 3: and Scale came back with the detailed design document, it 860 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,319 Speaker 3: turned out that it was not just a card game. 861 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,080 Speaker 3: It was actually a full fledged you know, battle Royale 862 00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:19,680 Speaker 3: where instead of instead of you know, you controlling your character, 863 00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,560 Speaker 3: your character is this AI controlled bot that you're essentially 864 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,960 Speaker 3: coaching and giving you know, good advice to, so to speak. 865 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:31,360 Speaker 3: And that took it to a completely different technical level. 866 00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:33,680 Speaker 3: But that's kind of what we've been building for the 867 00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,319 Speaker 3: past year and a half, almost two years. So to 868 00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,480 Speaker 3: answer Tracy's question, the reason why we're kind of like 869 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,880 Speaker 3: talking about all this right now is we just launched 870 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,200 Speaker 3: what we are calling our tre alpha, So we are 871 00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:47,440 Speaker 3: not necessarily like letting everyone through the door, but basically 872 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:49,600 Speaker 3: we're letting a ton of folks to the door to 873 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,480 Speaker 3: come and experience a sort of with the first version 874 00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,280 Speaker 3: of the game, give us feedback, and we are hoping 875 00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:59,480 Speaker 3: to get into alpha around the late springs, around late 876 00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,040 Speaker 3: Q one early Q two timeframe, when the public more 877 00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,480 Speaker 3: members of the public can start experiencing, So that's kind 878 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,000 Speaker 3: of like the early access time frame that we're looking at, 879 00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,040 Speaker 3: and then we're going to be in beta by the 880 00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:11,799 Speaker 3: end of the next year. That's kind of like when 881 00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,399 Speaker 3: we'll be in public. But the reason why we wanted 882 00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:18,000 Speaker 3: to talk to Magic fans especially is because that's whom 883 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,520 Speaker 3: we are prioritizing. Is because you know, even you Tracy, 884 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,520 Speaker 3: if you play Chaos Agents at this stage, you'll be like, oh, 885 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,600 Speaker 3: I see how this takes some of the core concepts 886 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,719 Speaker 3: of for Richard Garfield game and just translate this translates 887 00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,280 Speaker 3: it to something that can only happen in the digital format, 888 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,280 Speaker 3: and that was sort of our fundamental goal. So sorry, 889 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,840 Speaker 3: that was a much longer your. 890 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,400 Speaker 1: Question, but you know, no, that's very cool and I 891 00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,839 Speaker 1: am excited to play this game. We just have time 892 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 1: for one more question, and this one comes from our 893 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,760 Speaker 1: producer Carmen, although I think it's actually for Joe's benefit 894 00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,760 Speaker 1: so that he can branch out into some new things. 895 00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:58,480 Speaker 1: But other than Magic and Chaos Agents, what games do 896 00:50:58,520 --> 00:50:59,960 Speaker 1: you like to play? What are your favorites? 897 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,759 Speaker 4: Wow? Well, I, as I said at the beginning, I 898 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,240 Speaker 4: think there is some merit to uh to really getting 899 00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:10,800 Speaker 4: good at a game and playing it again and again, 900 00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:16,760 Speaker 4: and that that goes against my my curiosity of games. 901 00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:20,800 Speaker 4: Uh and uh so so I have this tension between 902 00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,160 Speaker 4: wanting to play everything that comes to the market and 903 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,120 Speaker 4: trying to discipline myself to return to my favorites and 904 00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:32,120 Speaker 4: play them again and again. But so so Uh. Some 905 00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,480 Speaker 4: of the games which which I returned to again and 906 00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:41,840 Speaker 4: again are Hanabi that's my favorite cooperative game. And uh, 907 00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,879 Speaker 4: I am actually playing a bunch of Fairy Chess right now, 908 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:50,640 Speaker 4: which is Chess variations and uh and I play uh 909 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,680 Speaker 4: Lost Cities, uh my my my, one of my favorite 910 00:51:54,840 --> 00:52:00,200 Speaker 4: two player games. But lots of classic games like like 911 00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,600 Speaker 4: like Jass and Gain and the Bridge. 912 00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe it looks like a fun game. Maybe I'll 913 00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:08,880 Speaker 2: play with my family. 914 00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,160 Speaker 3: It's a wonderful game. And I can watch for the 915 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,720 Speaker 3: fact that Richard plays a lot of games and Common 916 00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:15,200 Speaker 3: and I were talking about this at the top of 917 00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:17,640 Speaker 3: the r Richard is it plays and that is actually 918 00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:21,200 Speaker 3: amazing because like for me, you know, I would I 919 00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:23,319 Speaker 3: would love to play that much. But you know, I 920 00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:25,960 Speaker 3: kind of play vicariously through Richard because he comes back 921 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:27,360 Speaker 3: and tells the oh, you know what you check that 922 00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,440 Speaker 3: one out. And that's you know, I have three recommendations 923 00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:34,239 Speaker 3: of different sort of fidelities with put it that way. 924 00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,640 Speaker 3: One that you know, anyone who's interested in Auto Battler 925 00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,160 Speaker 3: should check out Vampire Survivors. That was one of the 926 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,319 Speaker 3: first games that Richard recommended to me, and it's really 927 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:44,640 Speaker 3: blown up since then, so a lot for a lot 928 00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:46,239 Speaker 3: of folks in the gaming community know about it. But 929 00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,520 Speaker 3: it's just a fantastic game. It's just so simple but 930 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:52,480 Speaker 3: so so deep. The other one that I highly recommend, 931 00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:54,440 Speaker 3: it's a completely different type of game, but I'm sure 932 00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,319 Speaker 3: it doesn't get that much coverage. So but it's been 933 00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,839 Speaker 3: something that has been a great game for me and 934 00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,520 Speaker 3: my my family to play together. It's called The Case 935 00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,719 Speaker 3: of the Golden Idol, which is which is this little 936 00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:09,440 Speaker 3: indie game that essentially gets you to solve this mystery 937 00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,560 Speaker 3: set in the fictional nineteenth century. 938 00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:15,160 Speaker 1: Oh that sounds like so much fun. 939 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:17,719 Speaker 3: Oh wow, it is just so cool, you know, Like 940 00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:19,120 Speaker 3: I don't want to give away anything. It's one of 941 00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:21,480 Speaker 3: those games that issues go in blind, but it doesn't 942 00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,239 Speaker 3: take You can probably beat the whole game in less 943 00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:25,319 Speaker 3: than five hours, and it's just such a such a 944 00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,000 Speaker 3: fun experience, so always always fun to support indeed developers, 945 00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:31,640 Speaker 3: and you know, for anyone who's not heard yet, I 946 00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:34,600 Speaker 3: mean I highly recommend Alan Wake too. It's just it 947 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,040 Speaker 3: is just so cool to see that kind of innovation 948 00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,760 Speaker 3: in Triple A gaming. And this has just been an amazing, 949 00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,240 Speaker 3: amazing up for gaming overall, just in the quality of games. 950 00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,920 Speaker 3: But something like Alan Wake two is just like shows 951 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,840 Speaker 3: us the next bound the next kind of like boundary 952 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,720 Speaker 3: that we're hitting in the blending of like passive entertainment 953 00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,719 Speaker 3: interactive entertainment, because you know, no one can look at 954 00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:58,920 Speaker 3: alan Wake two like you know, there's just stuff you 955 00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,000 Speaker 3: can go and watch, you know, people let's play and 956 00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:03,800 Speaker 3: things like that. No one can look at that and 957 00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:06,120 Speaker 3: deny that it's you know, art. So I think at 958 00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:08,160 Speaker 3: this point of time, we've you know, crossed that Roger 959 00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,600 Speaker 3: t Wood spreshold where you know, gaming is undeniably getting 960 00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,440 Speaker 3: into that category. So it's exciting to see what I think. 961 00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,480 Speaker 4: Sorry to add to that list my favorite auto battler 962 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:21,400 Speaker 4: since since since that's where we're working now, which is 963 00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:26,200 Speaker 4: Heartstone Battlegrounds, I think it's really added a lot of 964 00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,080 Speaker 4: innovation to the auto battle or category. 965 00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,640 Speaker 1: Well, Arka and Richard, I think you're both going to 966 00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:34,520 Speaker 1: be responsible for a massive dip in all lots productivity 967 00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,480 Speaker 1: as we go off and experiment with all these new 968 00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,120 Speaker 1: recommendations and of course chaos agents as well. 969 00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:41,759 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. That was so great. I'm going 970 00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:44,680 Speaker 2: to order Hanave right now on my phone, so I 971 00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:46,960 Speaker 2: get it. I'm going to play more games. Even though 972 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,600 Speaker 2: I even though I appreciate Richard your endorsement of the 973 00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,880 Speaker 2: single game approach, I think you've actually inspired me to 974 00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:54,160 Speaker 2: maybe start playing more games. 975 00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:59,800 Speaker 4: Well one is a little bit narrow. 976 00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,080 Speaker 1: All right, Ton, Arka, thank you so much. That was fantastic. 977 00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:06,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for allowing me to reminisce and be all 978 00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:10,800 Speaker 1: nostalgic about Magic the Gathering and the middle school experience. 979 00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:13,080 Speaker 3: Thank you both for having us so much. It was 980 00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:14,600 Speaker 3: so it was so fun spending this hour. 981 00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:15,160 Speaker 2: Thank you. 982 00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:18,160 Speaker 4: It's always fun to talk about games to go on forever. 983 00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:31,720 Speaker 1: Joe, You're you're inspired now, Yeah, I am, I'm inspired. 984 00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:35,040 Speaker 2: I love to I love that conversation. I'm gonna play 985 00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:35,600 Speaker 2: more games. 986 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:37,879 Speaker 1: Maybe you know what I was thinking as we're talking 987 00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:42,600 Speaker 1: about Magic the Gathering and you know, Richard and Richard's 988 00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:47,600 Speaker 1: purposeful avoidance of building a sort of ecosystem that was 989 00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,480 Speaker 1: all about the economics and value of the game. I 990 00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,480 Speaker 1: was thinking about Axie Infinity, and it was kind of 991 00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,200 Speaker 1: like opposite, exactly right. 992 00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:59,919 Speaker 2: I had the exact same thought, which is that that's 993 00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,759 Speaker 2: no one could actually explain how that was a fun game. 994 00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:05,799 Speaker 2: No one even really tried to make the argument that 995 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:09,720 Speaker 2: the gameplayer was fun. Who's clearly all about the value 996 00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,360 Speaker 2: of the various NFTs in the game. It felt like 997 00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,240 Speaker 2: there are two levels to this. So there's the first level, 998 00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,480 Speaker 2: which is that it's not a fun game if you 999 00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,120 Speaker 2: have to spend a ton of money on rare cards, 1000 00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,880 Speaker 2: et cetera, and people just get obsessed with collecting collecting 1001 00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:27,000 Speaker 2: valuable cards. That is negative for gameplay. So he talked 1002 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:29,520 Speaker 2: about he was at pro crash price. And then there's 1003 00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,399 Speaker 2: the other element, which I thought was really interesting, which 1004 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,759 Speaker 2: is that it also ceases to be less fun if 1005 00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,799 Speaker 2: the game becomes more and more about deck construction, what 1006 00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,239 Speaker 2: happens before two people sit down in front of each other, 1007 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,759 Speaker 2: and less about the gameplay that occurs when the two 1008 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,040 Speaker 2: people are there. And so you know, just this idea 1009 00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:55,520 Speaker 2: of continuing to pursue fun, active, creative, improvisational gameplay and 1010 00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:59,400 Speaker 2: how to avoid these other traps where other factors start 1011 00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:01,280 Speaker 2: to overwhelm that. I thought it was really interesting. 1012 00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:05,960 Speaker 1: Well, also Arca's points about the pay to play model, Yeah, 1013 00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:09,480 Speaker 1: and the idea that, like you can build a very 1014 00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:13,759 Speaker 1: popular game by purposefully resisting some of that temptation. And 1015 00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,600 Speaker 1: I think if you look at something like Magic, the 1016 00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,520 Speaker 1: proof is kind of in the pudding, right, Like, people 1017 00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:22,280 Speaker 1: are still playing this game. It's made a ton of 1018 00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:25,440 Speaker 1: money for Wizards of the Coast. I remember again in 1019 00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:28,920 Speaker 1: middle school, like there was a whole network of media 1020 00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,880 Speaker 1: tied to this. There were Magic the Gathering fiction books 1021 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:35,000 Speaker 1: that I read at the time. Yeah, God, don't judge me, 1022 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:38,720 Speaker 1: but like this was a huge thing. And it wasn't 1023 00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:43,040 Speaker 1: because the cards themselves were valuable or because players were 1024 00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,840 Speaker 1: stumping up a ton of cash in order to play 1025 00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:46,360 Speaker 1: the game. 1026 00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:46,840 Speaker 4: It was this. 1027 00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:49,480 Speaker 1: It was everything. Yeah, it was everything, you know. It 1028 00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:52,240 Speaker 1: was the gameplay and everything attached to it in the community, 1029 00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,960 Speaker 1: and it was a fun time. Anyway, shall we leave 1030 00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:58,360 Speaker 1: it there, Let's leave it there. This has been another 1031 00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,560 Speaker 1: episode of the ad thoughts Potcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You 1032 00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:03,400 Speaker 1: can follow me at Tracy Alloway. 1033 00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,520 Speaker 2: Now I'm Jill Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart, 1034 00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:10,600 Speaker 2: follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Arman, dash Ol 1035 00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:14,760 Speaker 2: Bennett at Dashbot and Cal Brooks at Calebrooks. And thank 1036 00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:17,840 Speaker 2: you to our producer Moses On. For more odd Lots content, 1037 00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:20,480 Speaker 2: go to bloomberg dot com slash odd Lots, where we 1038 00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,360 Speaker 2: have transcripts, a blog, and a newsletter that comes out 1039 00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:26,680 Speaker 2: every Friday, and you can chat about all our episodes 1040 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,280 Speaker 2: in our discord twenty four to seven with fellow listeners. 1041 00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:31,400 Speaker 2: Go check it out. Really fun place to hang out. 1042 00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,880 Speaker 2: Discord dot gg slash Odlins. 1043 00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:36,440 Speaker 1: And if you enjoy All Lots, if you want us 1044 00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,600 Speaker 1: to do more episodes on the gaming industry, then please 1045 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:43,120 Speaker 1: leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. 1046 00:58:43,240 --> 00:59:02,440 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening in