1 00:00:16,897 --> 00:00:29,417 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus. 2 00:00:29,897 --> 00:00:35,017 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts. 3 00:00:35,057 --> 00:00:38,497 Speaker 1: Members will get access to exclusive bonus content like my 4 00:00:38,577 --> 00:00:41,257 Speaker 1: weekly bookmarks, where I talk about how I got a 5 00:00:41,297 --> 00:00:43,697 Speaker 1: book agent and what I'm watching on TV that week. 6 00:00:44,297 --> 00:00:48,017 Speaker 1: You'll get uninterrupted listening to many of your favorite podcasts 7 00:00:48,337 --> 00:00:53,257 Speaker 1: like Revisionist History, Pushtionary Tales, and The Happiness Lab. Sign 8 00:00:53,337 --> 00:00:55,657 Speaker 1: up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple 9 00:00:55,697 --> 00:01:07,697 Speaker 1: Podcasts or at pushkin dot com. Well life is funny. 10 00:01:07,737 --> 00:01:09,897 Speaker 1: I feel like if your story isn't a little bit funny, 11 00:01:10,057 --> 00:01:14,897 Speaker 1: it isn't true to life. Born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia, 12 00:01:15,017 --> 00:01:18,377 Speaker 1: author Tiari Jones knows how to find and bring out 13 00:01:18,377 --> 00:01:21,937 Speaker 1: the humor in her stories, even from the most harrowing 14 00:01:22,057 --> 00:01:26,777 Speaker 1: of situations, and her critically acclaimed novel And American Marriage, 15 00:01:27,177 --> 00:01:30,097 Speaker 1: Tiari tells the story of a young, married couple whose 16 00:01:30,137 --> 00:01:33,737 Speaker 1: relationship it's ripped apart when the husband is wrongfully sent 17 00:01:33,777 --> 00:01:38,617 Speaker 1: to prison. Incarceration is part of the story, but it's 18 00:01:38,657 --> 00:01:42,137 Speaker 1: not the whole story. It's about people going after their 19 00:01:42,177 --> 00:01:47,617 Speaker 1: greatest desires. We witness the messiness of their complicated courtships. 20 00:01:48,697 --> 00:01:52,217 Speaker 1: Tiari uses her words to teach people how to see 21 00:01:52,257 --> 00:01:55,657 Speaker 1: each other. One thing I want is to write a 22 00:01:55,697 --> 00:01:57,977 Speaker 1: novel where I'm not telling people how they should act, 23 00:01:58,177 --> 00:02:01,977 Speaker 1: but instead exploring the different ways that people behave the 24 00:02:02,017 --> 00:02:13,657 Speaker 1: different implications, and make us challenge our own beliefs. Welcome 25 00:02:13,697 --> 00:02:16,257 Speaker 1: to a well read black Girl, the literary kickback you 26 00:02:16,297 --> 00:02:22,057 Speaker 1: didn't even know you needed. I'm your host, glor Adam, 27 00:02:22,057 --> 00:02:25,137 Speaker 1: and this week I'm speaking of Tari Jones about the 28 00:02:25,217 --> 00:02:29,057 Speaker 1: healing power of her work, her long writing process, and 29 00:02:29,177 --> 00:02:41,417 Speaker 1: the value of sisterhood in her life. Hear, Hey, lady, 30 00:02:41,457 --> 00:02:43,417 Speaker 1: it's so good to see you. It's so good to 31 00:02:43,417 --> 00:02:46,097 Speaker 1: see you as well. Thank you for doing this. Thank 32 00:02:46,097 --> 00:02:48,457 Speaker 1: you for just always being there for me. You know, 33 00:02:48,537 --> 00:02:51,577 Speaker 1: the honor and the pleasure is mine. I would love 34 00:02:51,657 --> 00:02:55,577 Speaker 1: for listeners to hear, just like your experience, who you 35 00:02:55,617 --> 00:02:59,497 Speaker 1: were before you even said I'm going to be a writer, 36 00:03:00,017 --> 00:03:02,697 Speaker 1: Just like how reading showed up in your childhood, and 37 00:03:02,697 --> 00:03:06,577 Speaker 1: how books made a difference as a young person. Well, 38 00:03:06,577 --> 00:03:09,137 Speaker 1: when I was a little girl, I loved to read. 39 00:03:09,617 --> 00:03:12,137 Speaker 1: There's this thing called the Georgia book List. It was 40 00:03:12,137 --> 00:03:15,257 Speaker 1: a summer list, and children got prizes and things for 41 00:03:15,377 --> 00:03:18,857 Speaker 1: having read books on the list, and so it combined 42 00:03:18,857 --> 00:03:20,817 Speaker 1: two of my things as a child. I love to read, 43 00:03:20,857 --> 00:03:23,017 Speaker 1: and I also wanted to be the best, and I 44 00:03:23,097 --> 00:03:25,937 Speaker 1: read all those books, and I had a lot of 45 00:03:26,017 --> 00:03:29,057 Speaker 1: encouragement for my teachers. But I do think that one 46 00:03:29,057 --> 00:03:31,457 Speaker 1: of the pleasures of being a girl is that you 47 00:03:31,497 --> 00:03:33,937 Speaker 1: are allowed to get lost in a book, because that's 48 00:03:33,977 --> 00:03:38,177 Speaker 1: considered a girly task and people didn't really process it 49 00:03:38,217 --> 00:03:41,017 Speaker 1: as an intellectual task. But it was just like you 50 00:03:41,057 --> 00:03:44,097 Speaker 1: were a nice girl. I often say, when you're a teenager, 51 00:03:44,257 --> 00:03:46,457 Speaker 1: people have two kinds of girls, girls who are nice 52 00:03:46,737 --> 00:03:49,137 Speaker 1: and girls who are not nice, and reading was a 53 00:03:49,177 --> 00:03:53,257 Speaker 1: sign of niceness. And it wasn't until I got to 54 00:03:53,297 --> 00:03:56,417 Speaker 1: Spellman where the question for my life as a teenager 55 00:03:56,617 --> 00:03:59,177 Speaker 1: was not are you nice or are you fast? Someone 56 00:03:59,257 --> 00:04:01,337 Speaker 1: said to me was a writer. She was my teacher, 57 00:04:01,417 --> 00:04:04,337 Speaker 1: or Pearl Clegg. Pearl said to me, what are you 58 00:04:04,377 --> 00:04:06,897 Speaker 1: thinking about? And I got ready to tell her and 59 00:04:06,977 --> 00:04:10,857 Speaker 1: she says, no, don't tell me, write it down. And 60 00:04:10,937 --> 00:04:15,137 Speaker 1: with that I've gained my first mentor and also my 61 00:04:15,217 --> 00:04:18,257 Speaker 1: first audience. And I've always wanted to do for someone 62 00:04:18,297 --> 00:04:21,457 Speaker 1: else what Pearl did for me. She took me seriously. 63 00:04:21,737 --> 00:04:24,817 Speaker 1: So I then took myself seriously and I changed me. 64 00:04:24,817 --> 00:04:26,817 Speaker 1: And Pearl and I are still very close. I saw 65 00:04:26,857 --> 00:04:29,297 Speaker 1: her last week. We get together once a month and 66 00:04:29,337 --> 00:04:31,617 Speaker 1: we talk and she often says she's not my mentor anymore, 67 00:04:31,657 --> 00:04:33,657 Speaker 1: that we're friends. But I say, don't be kicking me 68 00:04:33,657 --> 00:04:35,737 Speaker 1: out the nest. I demand to stay in the nest. 69 00:04:36,457 --> 00:04:38,857 Speaker 1: And she says, you are nobody's baby bird. But it 70 00:04:38,977 --> 00:04:42,577 Speaker 1: just means a lot to me that I had that. 71 00:04:42,697 --> 00:04:46,777 Speaker 1: I saw a black woman who was a writer, and 72 00:04:46,937 --> 00:04:49,937 Speaker 1: she extended her hand to me and thought I could 73 00:04:49,977 --> 00:04:54,617 Speaker 1: be a writer too. It's so amazing to see how 74 00:04:54,737 --> 00:04:58,617 Speaker 1: you and Miss Pearl our sister writers, and to be 75 00:04:58,657 --> 00:05:01,257 Speaker 1: a former student of hers and now to evolve to 76 00:05:01,777 --> 00:05:05,377 Speaker 1: a collaborator, an intense friendship that's grown over the years. 77 00:05:05,377 --> 00:05:09,737 Speaker 1: How does that feel to witness that friendship and mentorship evolve. Well, 78 00:05:09,817 --> 00:05:11,457 Speaker 1: it's been a long time. When I met her, I 79 00:05:11,457 --> 00:05:14,777 Speaker 1: was sixteen years old and she was an adjunct professor. 80 00:05:14,817 --> 00:05:17,857 Speaker 1: She wasn't this famous playwright and novelist that she is now. 81 00:05:17,937 --> 00:05:19,897 Speaker 1: She was an adjunct professor and she did all this 82 00:05:20,217 --> 00:05:22,777 Speaker 1: avant garde stuff. She had this thing called Live at 83 00:05:22,777 --> 00:05:26,057 Speaker 1: Club Zebra. It was like speak easy, you know, people 84 00:05:26,057 --> 00:05:29,937 Speaker 1: were playing saxophones, people were doing things like interpretive dances, 85 00:05:30,017 --> 00:05:33,057 Speaker 1: naked like all kinds of things were happening. And she 86 00:05:33,177 --> 00:05:37,257 Speaker 1: read from a piece called mad at Miles, which was 87 00:05:37,337 --> 00:05:42,337 Speaker 1: her asking, as black people who love black people, liberation minded, 88 00:05:42,537 --> 00:05:45,577 Speaker 1: how do we address violent misogyny in our own community? 89 00:05:45,817 --> 00:05:49,657 Speaker 1: Just think? This was what nineteen eighty nine ish, So 90 00:05:49,737 --> 00:05:53,337 Speaker 1: look how far was before Cosby, before r Kelly. She 91 00:05:53,417 --> 00:05:55,537 Speaker 1: was asking these questions. And she got up there and 92 00:05:55,617 --> 00:05:58,497 Speaker 1: she read and it was quiet. It was I have 93 00:05:58,537 --> 00:06:00,337 Speaker 1: to say, it was not met with a standing ovation. 94 00:06:00,417 --> 00:06:03,937 Speaker 1: It was contentious, but she had made an artistic environment 95 00:06:04,177 --> 00:06:06,617 Speaker 1: where you didn't have to play to the crowd. You 96 00:06:06,697 --> 00:06:08,977 Speaker 1: just had to engage the crowd and see where that 97 00:06:09,017 --> 00:06:13,657 Speaker 1: conversation would take you. I was so ampressed. You should 98 00:06:13,657 --> 00:06:15,457 Speaker 1: have seen me, little one me. You should have seen 99 00:06:15,497 --> 00:06:20,337 Speaker 1: me and drink at my Shirley Temple. But over the 100 00:06:20,457 --> 00:06:23,337 Speaker 1: years she always engaged me, asked me what do I 101 00:06:23,497 --> 00:06:26,257 Speaker 1: think about this or that? So in our relationship, even 102 00:06:26,257 --> 00:06:28,817 Speaker 1: though like she was the big sister and I'm the 103 00:06:28,897 --> 00:06:33,017 Speaker 1: baby sister, she engaged me and took me seriously, so 104 00:06:33,057 --> 00:06:36,657 Speaker 1: that as we became friends more than a mentor protege. 105 00:06:37,017 --> 00:06:39,897 Speaker 1: I was accustomed to being heard by her. She taught 106 00:06:39,937 --> 00:06:42,697 Speaker 1: me that what you want is to tell the truth, 107 00:06:43,097 --> 00:06:44,937 Speaker 1: and when you tell the truth, you won't always be 108 00:06:45,017 --> 00:06:48,457 Speaker 1: rewarded right away, but the truth itself is its own reward. 109 00:06:48,697 --> 00:06:52,217 Speaker 1: It's so incredible And even when you talk about that piece, 110 00:06:52,497 --> 00:06:55,417 Speaker 1: Mad at Miles is one of my favorite books by her, because, 111 00:06:55,617 --> 00:06:59,257 Speaker 1: as you said, she is addressing Miles Davis directly. He 112 00:06:59,417 --> 00:07:02,577 Speaker 1: was like the most popular man in music, and she 113 00:07:02,817 --> 00:07:04,697 Speaker 1: was like, but wait, in your memoir, you said you 114 00:07:04,697 --> 00:07:07,137 Speaker 1: beat Cecily Tyson, Like, we're gonna talk about that and 115 00:07:07,137 --> 00:07:08,937 Speaker 1: address it head on. I love that you brought that 116 00:07:08,937 --> 00:07:10,657 Speaker 1: out because that was one of my favorite books by her. 117 00:07:11,177 --> 00:07:13,297 Speaker 1: And she's giving you the tools to say, like, you 118 00:07:13,337 --> 00:07:15,137 Speaker 1: can tell your own truth and I'm going to listen 119 00:07:15,137 --> 00:07:17,337 Speaker 1: to you, and it's going to be reciprocal. It means 120 00:07:17,337 --> 00:07:20,377 Speaker 1: so much, And I've seen you do that publicly and 121 00:07:20,497 --> 00:07:24,057 Speaker 1: privately for other young people that are trying to figure 122 00:07:24,057 --> 00:07:26,777 Speaker 1: out the industry and make their own way. What advice 123 00:07:26,777 --> 00:07:30,817 Speaker 1: do you give to young writers about longevity and building 124 00:07:30,817 --> 00:07:33,697 Speaker 1: the foundation of their career. I feel like if you 125 00:07:33,777 --> 00:07:36,177 Speaker 1: tell the story you feel most needs to be written, 126 00:07:36,297 --> 00:07:39,177 Speaker 1: you will never feel like you've wasted your time. Sometimes 127 00:07:39,217 --> 00:07:41,457 Speaker 1: people say to me, oh, how do you feel that 128 00:07:41,497 --> 00:07:44,137 Speaker 1: it was your fourth novel that made you a bestseller? 129 00:07:44,217 --> 00:07:46,097 Speaker 1: It was your fourth, how do you feel about those 130 00:07:46,097 --> 00:07:48,897 Speaker 1: other three? And I'd say, I still love those first 131 00:07:48,937 --> 00:07:51,297 Speaker 1: three novels as much as I love them when I 132 00:07:51,337 --> 00:07:53,097 Speaker 1: wrote them, because I felt they were the truth that 133 00:07:53,257 --> 00:07:56,737 Speaker 1: needed to be told. And therefore I never felt frustrated 134 00:07:56,817 --> 00:08:00,777 Speaker 1: by my career because I never felt frustrated by my work. 135 00:08:02,017 --> 00:08:05,457 Speaker 1: And I also urge young writers to remember who you're 136 00:08:05,497 --> 00:08:09,337 Speaker 1: healing with this work. If that book you wrote healed somebody, 137 00:08:09,857 --> 00:08:14,497 Speaker 1: you're good. This is my favorite story, my book, Silver Sparrow, 138 00:08:14,537 --> 00:08:16,857 Speaker 1: which is about a man who has a secret family. 139 00:08:17,417 --> 00:08:20,377 Speaker 1: I went to Milwaukee and a woman bought eight copies 140 00:08:20,377 --> 00:08:22,177 Speaker 1: of the book, eight or nine copies, which is what 141 00:08:22,257 --> 00:08:24,697 Speaker 1: people do in book club. Sometimes they send a representative 142 00:08:24,737 --> 00:08:27,137 Speaker 1: to get the book signed for everybody. I didn't think 143 00:08:27,177 --> 00:08:29,537 Speaker 1: much about it, and then I came back on my 144 00:08:29,577 --> 00:08:31,697 Speaker 1: book tour and the woman was there and she gave 145 00:08:31,697 --> 00:08:33,817 Speaker 1: me a gift, and she said to me, don't open 146 00:08:33,817 --> 00:08:36,257 Speaker 1: this until you get back to your hotel. And I said, okay. 147 00:08:36,257 --> 00:08:38,377 Speaker 1: I thanked her for it, and when I opened it, 148 00:08:38,377 --> 00:08:42,177 Speaker 1: it was a photograph of about seven or eight people. 149 00:08:42,177 --> 00:08:44,257 Speaker 1: They were in their fifties I suppose, and they were 150 00:08:44,297 --> 00:08:46,457 Speaker 1: all holding the book smiling. I thought they were a 151 00:08:46,457 --> 00:08:48,777 Speaker 1: book club. But when I read the note that came 152 00:08:48,817 --> 00:08:51,617 Speaker 1: with it, she explained that when her father died, they 153 00:08:51,617 --> 00:08:53,497 Speaker 1: found out that he had another family and all these 154 00:08:53,497 --> 00:08:55,977 Speaker 1: other kids, and so she had this idea that they 155 00:08:56,017 --> 00:08:58,177 Speaker 1: could read the book together so they could talk about 156 00:08:58,217 --> 00:09:01,777 Speaker 1: their experience without having to talk about their experience, that 157 00:09:01,857 --> 00:09:03,737 Speaker 1: the book was a way in for them, and it 158 00:09:03,897 --> 00:09:08,017 Speaker 1: healed this family. And I felt like, oh, that was 159 00:09:08,097 --> 00:09:10,257 Speaker 1: why I was called to write this book. I wrote 160 00:09:10,257 --> 00:09:14,777 Speaker 1: this book for y'all, and I felt completely satisfied with 161 00:09:14,817 --> 00:09:16,977 Speaker 1: the work I've done and the way it was received. 162 00:09:17,257 --> 00:09:19,657 Speaker 1: So Silver Sparrow was a book that didn't even get 163 00:09:19,697 --> 00:09:22,177 Speaker 1: reviewed by the New York Times. It wasn't in the 164 00:09:22,257 --> 00:09:25,897 Speaker 1: running for major awards or whatever. But that woman and 165 00:09:26,057 --> 00:09:29,217 Speaker 1: her siblings, that was my prize. And I think that's 166 00:09:29,257 --> 00:09:34,337 Speaker 1: what Pearl taught me most is remember why you do 167 00:09:34,377 --> 00:09:37,217 Speaker 1: what you do, Remember how you felt when a book 168 00:09:37,257 --> 00:09:39,817 Speaker 1: touched you. You never get touched by a book and 169 00:09:39,897 --> 00:09:41,737 Speaker 1: flip it over on the back to say, did this 170 00:09:41,737 --> 00:09:44,857 Speaker 1: book went a prize? It never occurred to you. What 171 00:09:44,937 --> 00:09:48,657 Speaker 1: occurred to you was what you felt, and that's the gift. 172 00:09:50,377 --> 00:09:54,097 Speaker 1: You are such a skillful writer, and I know people 173 00:09:54,097 --> 00:09:56,857 Speaker 1: want to hear about how you start, Like do you 174 00:09:57,017 --> 00:10:00,257 Speaker 1: map out your writing? Are you an outline person? What 175 00:10:00,337 --> 00:10:02,657 Speaker 1: does your research look like? What are the dews and 176 00:10:02,777 --> 00:10:06,777 Speaker 1: dones of your writing process? Okay, I don't outline anything 177 00:10:06,937 --> 00:10:10,537 Speaker 1: because for me, if I know where the story is going, 178 00:10:10,657 --> 00:10:12,617 Speaker 1: and you can feel me aiming for it, because I'll 179 00:10:12,617 --> 00:10:15,377 Speaker 1: be trying to set it up. But when I don't 180 00:10:15,377 --> 00:10:17,497 Speaker 1: know where it's going, I'm writing to explore and I'm 181 00:10:17,537 --> 00:10:19,457 Speaker 1: more interested. If I knew the end of a book, 182 00:10:19,697 --> 00:10:22,217 Speaker 1: it would spoil it for me the way it spoils 183 00:10:22,217 --> 00:10:24,337 Speaker 1: it for you as a reader, if someone were to 184 00:10:24,377 --> 00:10:27,017 Speaker 1: tell you the end. Yeah. And also, I write in 185 00:10:27,057 --> 00:10:29,897 Speaker 1: search of the answer to a question. Now, this is 186 00:10:29,937 --> 00:10:31,777 Speaker 1: not the most efficient way to write a book, from 187 00:10:31,777 --> 00:10:34,217 Speaker 1: what I understand. Those outliners they can knock that book 188 00:10:34,297 --> 00:10:38,497 Speaker 1: out in nine months, ten months, But for me, it's 189 00:10:38,497 --> 00:10:40,737 Speaker 1: a growth process, and growth takes time, and I just 190 00:10:40,777 --> 00:10:43,697 Speaker 1: have to live with the time. It takes I read 191 00:10:43,737 --> 00:10:46,697 Speaker 1: everything aloud to hear how it sounds. If I cannot 192 00:10:46,937 --> 00:10:51,457 Speaker 1: read a paragraph out loud, I know that it's clunky. 193 00:10:52,657 --> 00:10:54,457 Speaker 1: If I'm chewing up the words, then I know I've 194 00:10:54,457 --> 00:10:56,097 Speaker 1: written too many words. Or if I get bored, you 195 00:10:56,137 --> 00:10:58,737 Speaker 1: get bored reading your own work out loud, that means 196 00:10:58,777 --> 00:11:00,497 Speaker 1: you got too much description. So some one of these 197 00:11:00,577 --> 00:11:02,377 Speaker 1: characters need to get in here and do something right. 198 00:11:02,857 --> 00:11:06,057 Speaker 1: But all that comes later. I just think that I 199 00:11:06,137 --> 00:11:08,497 Speaker 1: just try to learn the most I can as I go, 200 00:11:08,577 --> 00:11:09,937 Speaker 1: and then I have to go back because when I 201 00:11:09,937 --> 00:11:12,657 Speaker 1: start the book, the characters are very wooden, because it's 202 00:11:12,697 --> 00:11:14,897 Speaker 1: just like they're people I just met. I don't know 203 00:11:14,937 --> 00:11:17,177 Speaker 1: these people. I'm getting to know them. But then once 204 00:11:17,337 --> 00:11:19,457 Speaker 1: I've written a hundred pages and I know them better, 205 00:11:19,737 --> 00:11:22,057 Speaker 1: I can come back to what I wrote and embroider 206 00:11:22,097 --> 00:11:24,937 Speaker 1: it and make it more texture and more debts simply 207 00:11:24,937 --> 00:11:27,457 Speaker 1: because I know more right right, and you've been able 208 00:11:27,497 --> 00:11:29,537 Speaker 1: to sit with it in a different way. But it 209 00:11:29,577 --> 00:11:31,977 Speaker 1: takes a long time. I mean, this is the I 210 00:11:32,057 --> 00:11:34,737 Speaker 1: take the long way, but it works for me. So 211 00:11:34,817 --> 00:11:37,857 Speaker 1: I wanted to know from writing your first book, Leaving 212 00:11:37,937 --> 00:11:41,537 Speaker 1: Atlanta to your latest release in American marriage in that 213 00:11:41,657 --> 00:11:44,457 Speaker 1: time frame. What is like the one thing that stands 214 00:11:44,457 --> 00:11:47,377 Speaker 1: out about how your writing has changed, how you have 215 00:11:47,497 --> 00:11:49,897 Speaker 1: changed as a person, Because I know the essence of 216 00:11:49,977 --> 00:11:52,537 Speaker 1: you is always there, but has there been something that 217 00:11:52,937 --> 00:11:56,017 Speaker 1: really feels like, okay, like this is my mark, this 218 00:11:56,057 --> 00:11:59,777 Speaker 1: is what I always include in every novel, or this 219 00:11:59,857 --> 00:12:03,337 Speaker 1: is just like my signature? What is the tr signature? Well, 220 00:12:03,377 --> 00:12:06,057 Speaker 1: other people notice things that I never noticed, Like someone 221 00:12:06,137 --> 00:12:09,257 Speaker 1: wrote me and said, do you like to eat salmon croquettes? 222 00:12:09,617 --> 00:12:12,257 Speaker 1: And I like salmon crow, It's just fine. But apparently 223 00:12:12,497 --> 00:12:16,257 Speaker 1: somebody in every book is eating salmon croquettes. I don't 224 00:12:16,257 --> 00:12:18,417 Speaker 1: know who knew what's going on in my subconscious I 225 00:12:18,457 --> 00:12:20,937 Speaker 1: do not know. Well, obviously, all the novels are set 226 00:12:20,977 --> 00:12:24,977 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, and that's a signature for me, and it's 227 00:12:24,977 --> 00:12:30,417 Speaker 1: an easily identifiable signature. But I think an emotional signature 228 00:12:30,657 --> 00:12:34,337 Speaker 1: is that I have two sisters who are older than me, 229 00:12:34,377 --> 00:12:36,777 Speaker 1: and we weren't raised together because we have different mothers, 230 00:12:37,057 --> 00:12:39,537 Speaker 1: and I've longed for them all my life. And so 231 00:12:39,617 --> 00:12:43,017 Speaker 1: someone in every book has that situation, whether it be 232 00:12:43,057 --> 00:12:45,337 Speaker 1: a major character or a side character. I notice I 233 00:12:45,417 --> 00:12:48,777 Speaker 1: keep bringing that bell and it used to bother me, 234 00:12:48,777 --> 00:12:50,657 Speaker 1: and I would try not to do it because you know, 235 00:12:50,737 --> 00:12:52,297 Speaker 1: you think I don't want to be predictable. I don't 236 00:12:52,297 --> 00:12:53,977 Speaker 1: want people to be able to predict but I let 237 00:12:53,977 --> 00:12:55,577 Speaker 1: it go. As a matter of fact. I'm working on 238 00:12:55,617 --> 00:12:59,857 Speaker 1: something now and it's happening again, and that's just how 239 00:12:59,897 --> 00:13:03,297 Speaker 1: it is. We write toward our obsessions and the key though, 240 00:13:03,697 --> 00:13:05,977 Speaker 1: I think in writing, even though you have an obsession, 241 00:13:06,057 --> 00:13:08,537 Speaker 1: all your books should be different. Even if when you 242 00:13:08,577 --> 00:13:11,057 Speaker 1: point out that note or that bell you keep ringing, 243 00:13:11,457 --> 00:13:13,297 Speaker 1: it should be a surprise to a reader, or reader 244 00:13:13,337 --> 00:13:16,137 Speaker 1: should say, oh my goodness, you're right, because you're not 245 00:13:16,177 --> 00:13:19,297 Speaker 1: writing the same book. It's almost like if you have 246 00:13:19,337 --> 00:13:21,697 Speaker 1: a favorite color. It's not like you're wearing the same 247 00:13:21,777 --> 00:13:24,137 Speaker 1: dress over again, but you like yellow, so you might 248 00:13:24,137 --> 00:13:27,377 Speaker 1: have a yellow shoe, a yellow belt, yellow nail polish, 249 00:13:27,417 --> 00:13:30,657 Speaker 1: but you still look different every time. Yes, yes, And 250 00:13:30,937 --> 00:13:34,297 Speaker 1: I would say that sisterhood is such a prominent theme 251 00:13:34,297 --> 00:13:36,697 Speaker 1: in all your books, but they're explored in so many 252 00:13:36,697 --> 00:13:39,097 Speaker 1: different ways. When I think of, you know, leaving in 253 00:13:39,177 --> 00:13:42,497 Speaker 1: land sets or silver sparrow, just like there is this theme. 254 00:13:42,937 --> 00:13:45,097 Speaker 1: When I think of the word sister, I do think 255 00:13:45,137 --> 00:13:48,377 Speaker 1: of it as the sibling relationship, but just much deeper, 256 00:13:48,417 --> 00:13:50,777 Speaker 1: like what it means to be in connection and in 257 00:13:50,817 --> 00:13:54,337 Speaker 1: love with another woman and feel held by them, like 258 00:13:54,417 --> 00:13:57,577 Speaker 1: really feels like embraced and held by them. And you 259 00:13:57,777 --> 00:14:00,377 Speaker 1: articulate that and illustrate that in so many of your books. 260 00:14:00,497 --> 00:14:04,257 Speaker 1: So how would you defy sisterhood? And what does that mean? 261 00:14:04,417 --> 00:14:07,257 Speaker 1: How is sisterhood showed up in your life again and again? 262 00:14:07,337 --> 00:14:10,057 Speaker 1: You give the perfect example of Pearl, but other other 263 00:14:10,097 --> 00:14:14,737 Speaker 1: examples sisterhood that you feel really tied to. Women have 264 00:14:14,817 --> 00:14:18,657 Speaker 1: taken such good care of me all my life, you know. 265 00:14:18,697 --> 00:14:21,777 Speaker 1: It's probably was most intense when I went to Spellman College, 266 00:14:21,777 --> 00:14:23,977 Speaker 1: and I didn't even want to go to Spellman. I 267 00:14:24,017 --> 00:14:27,297 Speaker 1: think about college, and I think, how I can't even 268 00:14:27,297 --> 00:14:30,057 Speaker 1: imagine you anywhere else but Spellman me either, But you 269 00:14:30,097 --> 00:14:34,257 Speaker 1: think about colleges, that's a decision made by teenagers. Teenagers. 270 00:14:35,017 --> 00:14:38,177 Speaker 1: Teenagers have things based on all kinds of random factors. 271 00:14:39,217 --> 00:14:41,697 Speaker 1: I went to Spellman because one of my mom's friends 272 00:14:41,737 --> 00:14:45,697 Speaker 1: taught at Spellman and she had rasped me into applying it. 273 00:14:45,817 --> 00:14:47,977 Speaker 1: I just applied so she would get off my back. 274 00:14:48,617 --> 00:14:51,337 Speaker 1: And I now know it. This real complicated situation between 275 00:14:51,377 --> 00:14:53,737 Speaker 1: her and my mother getting me to go there without 276 00:14:53,857 --> 00:14:55,697 Speaker 1: forcing me to go there, because if I was forced, 277 00:14:55,697 --> 00:14:58,897 Speaker 1: I wouldn't go. But at Spellman, I do feel very 278 00:14:58,937 --> 00:15:03,097 Speaker 1: grateful that my sisterhood, like I have these women literally 279 00:15:03,137 --> 00:15:05,817 Speaker 1: all over the world who have my back. When you 280 00:15:05,857 --> 00:15:09,857 Speaker 1: take care of each other and you prioritize that other person, 281 00:15:09,977 --> 00:15:12,337 Speaker 1: like when you show up and you do what needs 282 00:15:12,337 --> 00:15:14,497 Speaker 1: to be done to help that other person kind of 283 00:15:14,657 --> 00:15:17,777 Speaker 1: make it over a bridge. But also sisterhood is also 284 00:15:17,817 --> 00:15:20,017 Speaker 1: also when you're not in crisis, when you just want 285 00:15:20,097 --> 00:15:21,937 Speaker 1: to want to laugh at what you think is funny. 286 00:15:22,177 --> 00:15:25,097 Speaker 1: It's an incredible bond to think the same thing is funny. 287 00:15:25,377 --> 00:15:28,337 Speaker 1: It makes you feel like you share a mind. I 288 00:15:28,417 --> 00:15:31,257 Speaker 1: do think we think about relationships and how people come 289 00:15:31,297 --> 00:15:33,777 Speaker 1: through when you're in trouble, and don't get me wrong, 290 00:15:33,897 --> 00:15:38,017 Speaker 1: that's huge. But also sharing in your joy I think 291 00:15:38,057 --> 00:15:42,377 Speaker 1: that's important too. After the break, tr and I dig 292 00:15:42,457 --> 00:15:46,257 Speaker 1: deeper into her experience writing an American marriage and talk 293 00:15:46,297 --> 00:15:51,657 Speaker 1: about her love of letters. Hi, I'm tr Jalines, and 294 00:15:51,697 --> 00:16:07,497 Speaker 1: you are listening to well read black girl. I'm Gloria 295 00:16:07,497 --> 00:16:09,617 Speaker 1: Adam and you're listening to a well read black girl. 296 00:16:09,977 --> 00:16:12,937 Speaker 1: I'm joining the Day by New York Times bestselling author 297 00:16:13,297 --> 00:16:17,337 Speaker 1: Siri Jones. Tr was the very first keynote speaker at 298 00:16:17,377 --> 00:16:20,177 Speaker 1: the inaugural Well Read Black Girl Festival in Brooklyn, New 299 00:16:20,257 --> 00:16:23,417 Speaker 1: York in twenty fifteen, and we're talking to her about 300 00:16:23,457 --> 00:16:28,177 Speaker 1: her twenty eighteen novel, An American Marriage. We's talk about 301 00:16:28,177 --> 00:16:32,257 Speaker 1: American Marriage. Okay, for people who haven't read it, let 302 00:16:32,337 --> 00:16:34,737 Speaker 1: me let me just recap. An American Marriage is the 303 00:16:34,777 --> 00:16:37,937 Speaker 1: story of a young couple separated by wrongful conviction. The 304 00:16:38,017 --> 00:16:40,177 Speaker 1: wife as an artist, her career is on the up. 305 00:16:40,537 --> 00:16:43,297 Speaker 1: Her husband is a kind of young executive. His career 306 00:16:43,377 --> 00:16:45,137 Speaker 1: was just starting. You know. They're about eight or nine 307 00:16:45,177 --> 00:16:47,817 Speaker 1: years out of college. And right after they get married, 308 00:16:48,017 --> 00:16:50,537 Speaker 1: he's arrested, like a year after they get married, he's 309 00:16:50,617 --> 00:16:53,857 Speaker 1: arrested for a crime he didn't commit in another state. 310 00:16:53,937 --> 00:16:59,017 Speaker 1: No less, So it's about their relationship across the miles, 311 00:16:59,297 --> 00:17:05,457 Speaker 1: across the experience, and just over time. And I didn't 312 00:17:05,457 --> 00:17:06,777 Speaker 1: know where the story was going. I knew where the 313 00:17:06,817 --> 00:17:09,217 Speaker 1: story was not going when I wrote it. I did 314 00:17:09,337 --> 00:17:12,497 Speaker 1: not want to update. If Bill Street could talk, I 315 00:17:12,577 --> 00:17:15,377 Speaker 1: did not want to make one woman's brave fight to 316 00:17:15,457 --> 00:17:18,897 Speaker 1: free her man or like let's celebrate back women by 317 00:17:18,897 --> 00:17:21,777 Speaker 1: the extent to which they can suffer and sacrifice. That 318 00:17:21,857 --> 00:17:25,297 Speaker 1: to me is one already told too, not terribly interesting, 319 00:17:25,657 --> 00:17:27,857 Speaker 1: and three not reflective of the way the real people 320 00:17:27,857 --> 00:17:30,977 Speaker 1: live their lives. And one thing I want is to 321 00:17:30,977 --> 00:17:33,057 Speaker 1: write a novel where I'm not telling people how they 322 00:17:33,097 --> 00:17:37,177 Speaker 1: should act, but instead exploring the different ways that people 323 00:17:37,177 --> 00:17:41,057 Speaker 1: behave the different implications, and make us challenge our own beliefs. 324 00:17:41,337 --> 00:17:43,777 Speaker 1: So she hangs in there for a pretty good amount 325 00:17:43,777 --> 00:17:45,977 Speaker 1: of time, but it's just a lot. It's a lot, 326 00:17:46,417 --> 00:17:48,857 Speaker 1: and she has her own dreams, and the question of 327 00:17:48,977 --> 00:17:51,297 Speaker 1: do black women have the right to dreams? Like can 328 00:17:51,337 --> 00:17:54,057 Speaker 1: you only have dreams if your husband's not in trouble? 329 00:17:54,257 --> 00:17:56,017 Speaker 1: And in that case, black women kind of would never 330 00:17:56,097 --> 00:17:58,497 Speaker 1: be able to dream because in our community somebody's always 331 00:17:58,497 --> 00:18:00,937 Speaker 1: in trouble. But I didn't know the answer to it. 332 00:18:01,137 --> 00:18:05,097 Speaker 1: And the thing that surprised me probably the most was 333 00:18:06,177 --> 00:18:08,937 Speaker 1: how conflicted I was about it, because I went in 334 00:18:09,217 --> 00:18:12,177 Speaker 1: fully believing black women to have dreams. After all, I 335 00:18:12,217 --> 00:18:14,657 Speaker 1: have a dream, I enjoyed my dream. Why would I 336 00:18:14,737 --> 00:18:18,377 Speaker 1: deprive my fictional character of dreams? But it was as 337 00:18:18,417 --> 00:18:22,257 Speaker 1: hard for me to write her as it was for 338 00:18:22,297 --> 00:18:24,617 Speaker 1: her to live her life and make her decisions. So 339 00:18:24,657 --> 00:18:28,177 Speaker 1: some of the same conflicts and same societal pressure that 340 00:18:28,217 --> 00:18:32,497 Speaker 1: the character was experiencing based on her decisions, I was 341 00:18:32,537 --> 00:18:38,537 Speaker 1: experiencing the same pressure about writing her decisions. Isn't that weird? 342 00:18:38,657 --> 00:18:41,257 Speaker 1: Like I remember I was at a party in this 343 00:18:41,337 --> 00:18:43,657 Speaker 1: guy he asked me, you know what are you working on? 344 00:18:43,937 --> 00:18:46,137 Speaker 1: And I told him writing about this woman her husband's 345 00:18:46,137 --> 00:18:48,057 Speaker 1: wrongfully in prison. And he said, oh, you're going to 346 00:18:48,097 --> 00:18:50,257 Speaker 1: write about holding him down. I was like, oh, I'm 347 00:18:50,257 --> 00:18:53,297 Speaker 1: really writing about really complex things that dada, And he said, 348 00:18:53,457 --> 00:18:57,137 Speaker 1: does she hold him down? I said, well, she does 349 00:18:57,377 --> 00:19:01,977 Speaker 1: find love somewhere else. This man took his little tiny 350 00:19:02,057 --> 00:19:06,057 Speaker 1: reception plate and his little reception glasses wine and walked 351 00:19:06,057 --> 00:19:08,857 Speaker 1: away from me like he didn't even like the idea 352 00:19:08,937 --> 00:19:12,017 Speaker 1: that I was thinking about it, Like I do not 353 00:19:12,137 --> 00:19:14,817 Speaker 1: have a husband in prison, so I did not find 354 00:19:14,937 --> 00:19:17,177 Speaker 1: new love while my husband is in prison. These are 355 00:19:17,217 --> 00:19:20,817 Speaker 1: imaginary people just engaging. It caused him to walk away 356 00:19:20,857 --> 00:19:26,417 Speaker 1: from me, and that surprised me. How passionate and angry 357 00:19:26,457 --> 00:19:28,377 Speaker 1: some people were at this book, And that was my 358 00:19:28,457 --> 00:19:32,897 Speaker 1: first time experiencing that with readers. They get mad at me, 359 00:19:33,337 --> 00:19:36,457 Speaker 1: But then other people were really supportive, so it all 360 00:19:36,497 --> 00:19:39,017 Speaker 1: worked out. But it was a lot well that brings 361 00:19:39,057 --> 00:19:41,177 Speaker 1: me to the other side of it, like, how was 362 00:19:41,217 --> 00:19:44,257 Speaker 1: it crafting the male characters in American marriage? Was it 363 00:19:44,297 --> 00:19:49,297 Speaker 1: a deliberate choice to make that voice feel authentic? And 364 00:19:49,937 --> 00:19:52,937 Speaker 1: how you know the presence of the fathers involved? Because 365 00:19:52,977 --> 00:19:55,137 Speaker 1: there's two sides of it, you can see the story 366 00:19:55,137 --> 00:19:58,817 Speaker 1: as a story of masculinity as well. I will say 367 00:19:58,937 --> 00:20:00,577 Speaker 1: my first time I wrote it through, I wrote it 368 00:20:00,617 --> 00:20:02,857 Speaker 1: all through from the woman's point of view. Only I 369 00:20:02,897 --> 00:20:05,537 Speaker 1: liked it. I dug it, and nobody else dug it. 370 00:20:05,657 --> 00:20:07,937 Speaker 1: Everyone kept saying, well, what about her husband? And I 371 00:20:07,977 --> 00:20:10,337 Speaker 1: got defensive because I said, I know a lot of 372 00:20:10,337 --> 00:20:12,497 Speaker 1: male writers, and nobody ever tells them they need to 373 00:20:12,537 --> 00:20:14,817 Speaker 1: rewrite their story from the point of view of the wife. Ever. 374 00:20:15,617 --> 00:20:19,817 Speaker 1: But here's an important thing to know about writing. You 375 00:20:19,857 --> 00:20:23,177 Speaker 1: can take advice. Like let's say you're a painter. If 376 00:20:23,177 --> 00:20:26,057 Speaker 1: someone doesn't like your painter and you revise your painting, 377 00:20:26,817 --> 00:20:28,977 Speaker 1: you can never have your original back because you've changed 378 00:20:28,977 --> 00:20:32,537 Speaker 1: the painting forever. Writing is not like that. If you 379 00:20:32,657 --> 00:20:34,617 Speaker 1: change the writing and you don't like what you've done, 380 00:20:34,657 --> 00:20:37,017 Speaker 1: you can always go back to earlier draft. So the 381 00:20:37,097 --> 00:20:39,857 Speaker 1: only thing you risk when you make changes is your 382 00:20:39,897 --> 00:20:42,977 Speaker 1: ego to say that maybe someone else was right. So 383 00:20:43,057 --> 00:20:45,417 Speaker 1: I rewrote the story. I wrote the whole thing from 384 00:20:45,497 --> 00:20:47,697 Speaker 1: Roy's perspective, and it didn't take long at all. And 385 00:20:47,737 --> 00:20:49,297 Speaker 1: I was wondering why I was able to do it 386 00:20:49,297 --> 00:20:51,977 Speaker 1: so quickly. And I was able to do it so 387 00:20:52,057 --> 00:20:54,457 Speaker 1: quickly because I think that man's story is a story. 388 00:20:54,537 --> 00:20:57,657 Speaker 1: We know that man is in prison. What does he 389 00:20:57,737 --> 00:20:59,777 Speaker 1: want to get out of prison? What else does he 390 00:20:59,817 --> 00:21:03,657 Speaker 1: want his wife back? So his motives and needs were 391 00:21:03,737 --> 00:21:07,377 Speaker 1: much more straightforward than hers, because his situation was so dire. 392 00:21:08,537 --> 00:21:11,977 Speaker 1: But I did have fun getting his voice an idiom together. 393 00:21:12,337 --> 00:21:14,857 Speaker 1: I like to think that I am now fluent and 394 00:21:15,057 --> 00:21:20,937 Speaker 1: dud I speak dud I left that. Even though American 395 00:21:21,097 --> 00:21:25,057 Speaker 1: marriage is also just the challenging subject, I feel like 396 00:21:25,097 --> 00:21:27,617 Speaker 1: you inject a lot of humor into it as well. 397 00:21:27,697 --> 00:21:30,017 Speaker 1: And even listening to you, you're funny. You're a very 398 00:21:30,017 --> 00:21:33,817 Speaker 1: funny person, and how were you able to balance that? Well? 399 00:21:33,897 --> 00:21:35,937 Speaker 1: Life is funny. I feel like if your story isn't 400 00:21:35,977 --> 00:21:39,617 Speaker 1: a little bit funny, it isn't true to life. And 401 00:21:39,697 --> 00:21:42,417 Speaker 1: I also think it's very important that Black people laugh 402 00:21:42,937 --> 00:21:45,697 Speaker 1: because they think it's funny. I disagree that black people 403 00:21:45,777 --> 00:21:48,137 Speaker 1: laugh to keep from crying, because that implies that we're 404 00:21:48,137 --> 00:21:51,617 Speaker 1: always almost crying. Sometimes things are just some things are 405 00:21:51,657 --> 00:21:54,337 Speaker 1: just funny, and I don't hold that back. I had 406 00:21:54,377 --> 00:21:56,817 Speaker 1: to learn, though, I had to learn to be okay 407 00:21:56,817 --> 00:22:00,617 Speaker 1: with humor, and also to focus so closely on relationships, 408 00:22:00,657 --> 00:22:03,417 Speaker 1: particularly as a woman writer. There is a sense that 409 00:22:03,577 --> 00:22:06,377 Speaker 1: women writers write about feelings and that our work isn't 410 00:22:06,377 --> 00:22:09,857 Speaker 1: as serious that and some people in their feedback on 411 00:22:09,897 --> 00:22:15,657 Speaker 1: an American Marria, they wanted less relationships, more racism. But 412 00:22:15,737 --> 00:22:18,017 Speaker 1: I feel that that's not my job as a writer. 413 00:22:18,177 --> 00:22:20,097 Speaker 1: My job as a writer is to tell people's stories, 414 00:22:20,497 --> 00:22:24,137 Speaker 1: not to shine a light on racism, only because think 415 00:22:24,177 --> 00:22:27,057 Speaker 1: about your real life. In your real life, you focus 416 00:22:27,097 --> 00:22:29,057 Speaker 1: on your relationships. When you think about what you're going 417 00:22:29,097 --> 00:22:31,457 Speaker 1: to do today and how you're feeling today, it's about 418 00:22:31,457 --> 00:22:34,057 Speaker 1: the other people in your life. You do not sit 419 00:22:34,097 --> 00:22:38,257 Speaker 1: around all day shining a light on racism. Right because 420 00:22:38,377 --> 00:22:40,417 Speaker 1: racism is so ubiquitous, you don't have to look for it. 421 00:22:40,417 --> 00:22:42,417 Speaker 1: It's gonna show up. You don't have to go find 422 00:22:42,417 --> 00:22:45,497 Speaker 1: it for your story. But when the draft is done, 423 00:22:45,537 --> 00:22:47,937 Speaker 1: take some of the humor out. It can get too 424 00:22:47,937 --> 00:22:51,417 Speaker 1: funny because when you write, you lean on the thing 425 00:22:51,457 --> 00:22:54,257 Speaker 1: you do well. Whenever the draft has a lot of 426 00:22:54,297 --> 00:22:57,817 Speaker 1: whatever your superpower is, it's because you're having trouble with 427 00:22:57,857 --> 00:23:00,737 Speaker 1: that section and you're using your superpower to get you through. 428 00:23:01,177 --> 00:23:04,017 Speaker 1: And that's actually a warning sign to you to visit 429 00:23:04,057 --> 00:23:07,657 Speaker 1: that section more closely and figure out why. It's just 430 00:23:07,657 --> 00:23:09,617 Speaker 1: like a real life you know how funny people when 431 00:23:09,657 --> 00:23:11,577 Speaker 1: things get really see and they don't know how to 432 00:23:11,617 --> 00:23:14,017 Speaker 1: what to say or what to do, Instead of having 433 00:23:14,057 --> 00:23:17,217 Speaker 1: an authentic interaction with you, they'll make a joke. You 434 00:23:17,257 --> 00:23:19,177 Speaker 1: do that on the page too, But the good news 435 00:23:19,297 --> 00:23:21,137 Speaker 1: is about the page, you can revise it and you 436 00:23:21,137 --> 00:23:23,297 Speaker 1: don't have to go out in the world with that 437 00:23:23,377 --> 00:23:26,097 Speaker 1: joke where there didn't need to be a joke. Yeah, 438 00:23:26,097 --> 00:23:29,177 Speaker 1: it's like your coping mechanism. Yeah, and everyone has them 439 00:23:29,217 --> 00:23:31,177 Speaker 1: in writing. I tell my students everyone has to like 440 00:23:31,217 --> 00:23:33,457 Speaker 1: the people who are really good at dialogue, they'll over 441 00:23:33,497 --> 00:23:36,657 Speaker 1: dialogue at a hard partner story because that's what they do. 442 00:23:36,697 --> 00:23:38,817 Speaker 1: I would also love to talk about the format, just 443 00:23:38,857 --> 00:23:41,777 Speaker 1: like the structure of the letters, how you decided upon that, 444 00:23:41,937 --> 00:23:43,977 Speaker 1: because I feel like that is just one of the 445 00:23:43,977 --> 00:23:46,697 Speaker 1: most effective ways just to convey the motion of the characters. 446 00:23:46,737 --> 00:23:49,657 Speaker 1: It's so beautifully done. Well, I love letters, but you 447 00:23:49,657 --> 00:23:52,617 Speaker 1: know the thing is, people don't write letters anymore. As 448 00:23:52,617 --> 00:23:55,657 Speaker 1: a person that writes a lot of letters, and I 449 00:23:55,817 --> 00:23:59,217 Speaker 1: probably get back one letter for every five I write. 450 00:23:59,457 --> 00:24:01,777 Speaker 1: I got a couple of regular penpals who write me, 451 00:24:01,857 --> 00:24:03,857 Speaker 1: but like people don't write back, and I don't like 452 00:24:03,937 --> 00:24:06,297 Speaker 1: people to feel there in letter debt. I tell people 453 00:24:06,337 --> 00:24:08,097 Speaker 1: that all the time you are not in debt, you 454 00:24:08,097 --> 00:24:09,777 Speaker 1: don't have to write me back. You can call me, 455 00:24:09,857 --> 00:24:12,977 Speaker 1: you can email me. Just because I'm into letters doesn't 456 00:24:13,017 --> 00:24:15,057 Speaker 1: mean you have to be into letters. What keeps you 457 00:24:15,137 --> 00:24:19,097 Speaker 1: writing when you know the response is unlikely? I just 458 00:24:19,257 --> 00:24:22,657 Speaker 1: enjoy doing it, Okay, Like back to the book, A 459 00:24:22,737 --> 00:24:25,457 Speaker 1: novel about prison is the only place where you could 460 00:24:25,777 --> 00:24:29,617 Speaker 1: realistically have exchange of letters. Because people in prison, letters 461 00:24:29,617 --> 00:24:31,657 Speaker 1: mean a lot to them for three reasons. Right, they 462 00:24:31,657 --> 00:24:34,817 Speaker 1: want the information you're sharing in the letter. They want 463 00:24:34,817 --> 00:24:36,857 Speaker 1: to know that you thought about them to send the letters, 464 00:24:36,897 --> 00:24:39,457 Speaker 1: so they appreciate it as a gesture. And thirdly, the 465 00:24:39,537 --> 00:24:42,097 Speaker 1: letter itself is a souvenir. They can carry it around 466 00:24:42,097 --> 00:24:46,137 Speaker 1: with them is a tangible reminder of the relationship. Well 467 00:24:46,217 --> 00:24:48,617 Speaker 1: for me as a writer of the letter, it works 468 00:24:48,617 --> 00:24:52,297 Speaker 1: those three ways for me. But I enjoy sharing whatever 469 00:24:52,337 --> 00:24:55,897 Speaker 1: information I'm sharing. I want the person to know I'm 470 00:24:55,897 --> 00:24:59,697 Speaker 1: thinking of them. And I appreciate the physicality of the 471 00:24:59,777 --> 00:25:01,817 Speaker 1: letter that I'm sending, like I. You know, I like 472 00:25:01,857 --> 00:25:05,097 Speaker 1: to have a good looking envelope. I'm serious about my stamps. 473 00:25:06,537 --> 00:25:09,537 Speaker 1: I'm down with stickers now. Like I like to send 474 00:25:09,577 --> 00:25:12,977 Speaker 1: the letter as a gift, a physical gift to a friend. 475 00:25:13,657 --> 00:25:18,097 Speaker 1: I have this letter that I keep on my vision 476 00:25:18,137 --> 00:25:22,177 Speaker 1: board in my office. That's from you. I'm going to 477 00:25:22,217 --> 00:25:25,857 Speaker 1: read it to you. Do you mind, Okay, Dear Glory, 478 00:25:26,017 --> 00:25:29,857 Speaker 1: Saturday was magical. Thank you for all of your love 479 00:25:30,297 --> 00:25:33,817 Speaker 1: work that made this possible. So many sisters in the 480 00:25:33,897 --> 00:25:37,737 Speaker 1: room had never experienced such a critical mass of black women. 481 00:25:38,617 --> 00:25:41,937 Speaker 1: I once heard an interview with an astronaut. He was explaining, 482 00:25:42,057 --> 00:25:46,137 Speaker 1: or trying to explain the experience of zero gravity. He 483 00:25:46,177 --> 00:25:49,177 Speaker 1: finally gave up because we bear the weight of gravity 484 00:25:49,257 --> 00:25:52,937 Speaker 1: from birth. People who have never been to space can't 485 00:25:52,937 --> 00:25:57,297 Speaker 1: even imagine weightlessness. Until Saturday, so many black women had 486 00:25:57,337 --> 00:25:59,777 Speaker 1: never been in a space where they did not struggle 487 00:25:59,857 --> 00:26:04,377 Speaker 1: with racism and sexism. You offered us eight hours of weightlessness. 488 00:26:04,777 --> 00:26:08,017 Speaker 1: Such a gift, glory. It was a beautiful thing to behold, 489 00:26:08,257 --> 00:26:12,737 Speaker 1: Love Tiari, and I promise you, like I keep this 490 00:26:12,817 --> 00:26:14,457 Speaker 1: in my office, I keep it next to me all 491 00:26:14,457 --> 00:26:16,777 Speaker 1: the time. And I think of you so much because 492 00:26:17,297 --> 00:26:21,577 Speaker 1: you're belief in me, and just like your encouragement, like 493 00:26:21,817 --> 00:26:24,937 Speaker 1: it's so simple sometimes just but just so sweet and real, 494 00:26:25,297 --> 00:26:27,337 Speaker 1: like talking to you, being your friend has made such 495 00:26:27,377 --> 00:26:30,577 Speaker 1: a difference in my life, and I'm really grateful for you. 496 00:26:30,777 --> 00:26:33,577 Speaker 1: I'm really just like your joy, your humor, just like 497 00:26:33,657 --> 00:26:36,577 Speaker 1: everything you do for black women, whether you're in person 498 00:26:36,617 --> 00:26:38,737 Speaker 1: holding their hand or you're writing a book for them, 499 00:26:38,777 --> 00:26:40,777 Speaker 1: it changes people. And I know it's changed my life 500 00:26:40,777 --> 00:26:43,017 Speaker 1: in such a powerful way. So thank you. Thank you 501 00:26:43,057 --> 00:26:46,777 Speaker 1: for just doing that for us every day. Well, I 502 00:26:46,857 --> 00:26:49,137 Speaker 1: just want to say to you, I want to thank 503 00:26:49,297 --> 00:26:54,137 Speaker 1: you because the women who are like my age, we 504 00:26:54,377 --> 00:26:56,857 Speaker 1: did what we could do and we're still doing our thing. 505 00:26:57,017 --> 00:27:00,257 Speaker 1: But it is so inspiring to see well Read Black Girl, 506 00:27:00,337 --> 00:27:04,097 Speaker 1: like a young black woman taking the lead, taking the 507 00:27:04,137 --> 00:27:07,257 Speaker 1: torch and making it bigger. When we had that first 508 00:27:07,457 --> 00:27:10,657 Speaker 1: Well Read Black Girl conference and all those black women 509 00:27:10,657 --> 00:27:14,457 Speaker 1: and from just kind of different walks of life. Everyone 510 00:27:15,617 --> 00:27:20,417 Speaker 1: left being so moved, so inspired, and so loving. There 511 00:27:20,537 --> 00:27:24,017 Speaker 1: was not a discouraging word to be heard anywhere. It 512 00:27:24,137 --> 00:27:28,377 Speaker 1: was truly weightlessness. And I went to Spellman. So I 513 00:27:28,457 --> 00:27:32,377 Speaker 1: have experienced that black female environment before, but even I 514 00:27:32,737 --> 00:27:35,737 Speaker 1: had not experienced it in so long, and I had 515 00:27:35,817 --> 00:27:39,297 Speaker 1: not experienced it with an eye towards the future. So 516 00:27:39,457 --> 00:27:43,417 Speaker 1: thank you, Glory for the future. I'm gonna write you 517 00:27:43,457 --> 00:27:52,457 Speaker 1: a letter. I'll be waiting on it. It's time for 518 00:27:52,497 --> 00:27:57,577 Speaker 1: a rapid fire. Okay, okay, what is your go to 519 00:27:57,697 --> 00:28:01,697 Speaker 1: snack when writing? Grapes? Green and purple green. I like 520 00:28:01,737 --> 00:28:05,217 Speaker 1: green grapes too. Name a book on your nightstand. It's 521 00:28:05,257 --> 00:28:09,297 Speaker 1: called the Right to Sex? What's that about? Okay? Let 522 00:28:09,297 --> 00:28:12,177 Speaker 1: me stop. Let's a feminist man of Festo. It's really interesting. 523 00:28:12,217 --> 00:28:15,817 Speaker 1: It's very challenging. I recommend it so far. Okay. I 524 00:28:15,977 --> 00:28:19,137 Speaker 1: have a waffle house. They're different. I mean, I hop 525 00:28:19,177 --> 00:28:21,417 Speaker 1: has better food, but the waffle house is across the street. 526 00:28:21,777 --> 00:28:26,417 Speaker 1: Waffle house, I mean it's across the street. Okay, Okay, 527 00:28:26,417 --> 00:28:28,537 Speaker 1: I'm gonna say I hop even though I'm from Georgia. 528 00:28:28,617 --> 00:28:30,937 Speaker 1: I'm gonna get bold and say I hop for sure. 529 00:28:30,937 --> 00:28:34,417 Speaker 1: I hop. Oh, this is the easy question. So typewriters 530 00:28:34,497 --> 00:28:39,377 Speaker 1: or computers, and why typewriters all day? Typewriters all day? 531 00:28:39,977 --> 00:28:42,057 Speaker 1: I like typewriters. I like making all that racket For 532 00:28:42,137 --> 00:28:44,777 Speaker 1: one thing, you feel like you're getting something done. Secondly, 533 00:28:45,617 --> 00:28:47,817 Speaker 1: when I use the computer, I type too fast and 534 00:28:47,857 --> 00:28:49,737 Speaker 1: I don't know what I've written. It's like when you 535 00:28:49,737 --> 00:28:52,257 Speaker 1: eat so fast the plate is empty, so clearly you 536 00:28:52,417 --> 00:28:54,017 Speaker 1: ate it, but you don't remember eating it. You don't 537 00:28:54,017 --> 00:28:57,337 Speaker 1: remember the flavors. Also, with the computer, I can get 538 00:28:57,417 --> 00:28:59,617 Speaker 1: upset with myself and press a couple of keys and 539 00:28:59,697 --> 00:29:02,577 Speaker 1: delete a day's work. With the typewriter, I can dramatically 540 00:29:02,577 --> 00:29:05,977 Speaker 1: pull the paper out, ball it up, throw it away, 541 00:29:06,017 --> 00:29:07,817 Speaker 1: and then come back and smooth it out and still 542 00:29:07,857 --> 00:29:11,737 Speaker 1: have it. I love that. It's more of the experience 543 00:29:11,777 --> 00:29:14,337 Speaker 1: of it. I love that. Okay, so I need to 544 00:29:14,457 --> 00:29:17,137 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go into your playlist. What is your life's 545 00:29:17,137 --> 00:29:23,457 Speaker 1: theme song? Ain't no stopping Us Now? Yes, when I 546 00:29:23,497 --> 00:29:25,617 Speaker 1: was writing my first book, I would play it all 547 00:29:25,617 --> 00:29:29,377 Speaker 1: the time, be like, yeah, we're on the move. That's 548 00:29:29,737 --> 00:29:38,097 Speaker 1: really really got the group. Yes, thank you so much, Tri, 549 00:29:38,337 --> 00:29:41,497 Speaker 1: Thank you for just giving us so much and being 550 00:29:41,577 --> 00:29:44,617 Speaker 1: my friend and mentor. I love you, I love you 551 00:29:44,697 --> 00:29:46,777 Speaker 1: more and thank you for having me, and I can't 552 00:29:46,817 --> 00:29:51,497 Speaker 1: wait to see what you do next. Tr Jones is 553 00:29:51,537 --> 00:29:54,297 Speaker 1: a joy to speak with. I couldn't ask for a 554 00:29:54,337 --> 00:29:58,937 Speaker 1: better confidant. Before I knew her personally, her words offered 555 00:29:58,937 --> 00:30:01,457 Speaker 1: me mentorship. They taught me how to be a better 556 00:30:01,497 --> 00:30:05,577 Speaker 1: friend and a companion. Her books explore what it means 557 00:30:05,617 --> 00:30:09,097 Speaker 1: to be a daughter of Atlanta, the painful, joyous path 558 00:30:09,177 --> 00:30:13,177 Speaker 1: to adulthood as a young Black woman. An American Marriage 559 00:30:13,177 --> 00:30:16,297 Speaker 1: reminds me that my gender influences the way I moved 560 00:30:16,297 --> 00:30:19,617 Speaker 1: through this world. Black women are often held to an 561 00:30:19,697 --> 00:30:24,177 Speaker 1: unfair standard of femininity. Tri offers us a fuller version 562 00:30:24,257 --> 00:30:28,977 Speaker 1: of ourselves. An American Marriage by tr Jones is out now. 563 00:30:30,497 --> 00:30:33,537 Speaker 1: After the break, we have a preview from another favorite 564 00:30:33,537 --> 00:30:49,457 Speaker 1: podcast of mine, WB Easy's nerd At podcast. We're ending 565 00:30:49,457 --> 00:30:52,257 Speaker 1: this episode with a special excerpt from our friends at 566 00:30:52,377 --> 00:30:56,097 Speaker 1: wb eaz's nerd At podcast. It's a show that helps 567 00:30:56,137 --> 00:30:59,817 Speaker 1: you unwind for the weekend with fun and interesting conversations 568 00:30:59,817 --> 00:31:04,857 Speaker 1: and recommendations. Nerdett also has a monthly book club. Last year, 569 00:31:05,057 --> 00:31:07,657 Speaker 1: one of their featured books was the short story collection 570 00:31:07,937 --> 00:31:12,497 Speaker 1: The Office of Historical Corrections by Daniel Evans, an awesome book. 571 00:31:13,097 --> 00:31:21,497 Speaker 1: Here's nerd At host Gretta Johnson talking to Evans. I 572 00:31:21,537 --> 00:31:24,097 Speaker 1: am one of those people who usually doesn't really connect 573 00:31:24,097 --> 00:31:26,817 Speaker 1: with short stories. I think often because if I don't 574 00:31:26,817 --> 00:31:29,017 Speaker 1: really enjoy it, I'm sort of like, why did I 575 00:31:29,057 --> 00:31:30,817 Speaker 1: bother reading this? And if I did really like it, 576 00:31:30,857 --> 00:31:34,697 Speaker 1: I'm like, why isn't this just a goddamn novel? But 577 00:31:34,737 --> 00:31:39,257 Speaker 1: there was something about like the bite sized bits that 578 00:31:39,337 --> 00:31:41,777 Speaker 1: you managed to put together in this book that it 579 00:31:41,857 --> 00:31:44,177 Speaker 1: was just like I was just so happy to be 580 00:31:44,417 --> 00:31:47,257 Speaker 1: on the ride the entire time. And I don't know 581 00:31:47,297 --> 00:31:48,737 Speaker 1: how you did it. I don't know if you can 582 00:31:48,777 --> 00:31:50,817 Speaker 1: tell me how you did it, but I just want 583 00:31:50,817 --> 00:31:54,697 Speaker 1: to say it's amazing. Well, I'm glad to be converting 584 00:31:54,737 --> 00:31:57,217 Speaker 1: people to the short story form. I really do. I 585 00:31:57,257 --> 00:31:59,017 Speaker 1: really do love short stories. I mean a probably I 586 00:31:59,017 --> 00:32:02,617 Speaker 1: love a collection because I think often when you're writing, 587 00:32:02,617 --> 00:32:07,297 Speaker 1: you're writing about something that you don't have a clear 588 00:32:07,897 --> 00:32:11,417 Speaker 1: answer on. A collection allow you to ask the same 589 00:32:11,497 --> 00:32:13,337 Speaker 1: question over and over again and to answer it different 590 00:32:13,377 --> 00:32:15,777 Speaker 1: ways and kind of look at it from different angles, 591 00:32:15,777 --> 00:32:17,017 Speaker 1: and so I think you can see a writer it's 592 00:32:17,057 --> 00:32:20,257 Speaker 1: kind of thinking about something and not necessarily figuring it out. 593 00:32:20,377 --> 00:32:23,177 Speaker 1: But I like that thinking. I like that conversational space, 594 00:32:23,217 --> 00:32:26,497 Speaker 1: and I like that range emotion. But an individual short 595 00:32:26,537 --> 00:32:29,857 Speaker 1: story I also think works. It just has this density. 596 00:32:30,017 --> 00:32:33,417 Speaker 1: You know, my favorite, not favorite altogether maybe, but the 597 00:32:33,457 --> 00:32:35,417 Speaker 1: people who I sort of admire in the form and 598 00:32:35,457 --> 00:32:37,497 Speaker 1: think of his models in the form, or Alice Monroe 599 00:32:37,577 --> 00:32:40,817 Speaker 1: and Edward P. Jones, who are just magicians with time, 600 00:32:40,897 --> 00:32:43,617 Speaker 1: Like sometimes you don't even know how they did it, 601 00:32:43,737 --> 00:32:47,737 Speaker 1: but there's sometimes just the right amount of the future 602 00:32:47,977 --> 00:32:50,017 Speaker 1: or just the right amount of the past that the 603 00:32:50,097 --> 00:32:53,017 Speaker 1: story feels like like being a live fields, right. It 604 00:32:53,057 --> 00:32:56,657 Speaker 1: feels like in any given moment, something intense is happening 605 00:32:56,657 --> 00:33:00,617 Speaker 1: that's capturing your intention, your attention, But there's also all 606 00:33:00,657 --> 00:33:04,497 Speaker 1: of this history to it that the characters are carrying 607 00:33:04,497 --> 00:33:06,937 Speaker 1: into the moment and these slight flashes of what it's 608 00:33:06,937 --> 00:33:08,457 Speaker 1: all going to mean. And I think when it comes 609 00:33:08,457 --> 00:33:14,777 Speaker 1: together really well, I like you're in all time at once, 610 00:33:14,897 --> 00:33:17,457 Speaker 1: and that is when a story feels most effective to me, 611 00:33:17,457 --> 00:33:20,937 Speaker 1: because it kind of captures that sensation of all the 612 00:33:21,017 --> 00:33:25,897 Speaker 1: things happening, but it's all in like one paragraph. Oh 613 00:33:25,937 --> 00:33:28,257 Speaker 1: my god, that's such a beautiful way of putting that. 614 00:33:28,377 --> 00:33:30,737 Speaker 1: I completely agree. And I don't know. I mean, so 615 00:33:30,817 --> 00:33:34,417 Speaker 1: much of life is these like flitting moments where you're 616 00:33:34,457 --> 00:33:36,937 Speaker 1: going through and having all of these different experiences in 617 00:33:36,977 --> 00:33:39,417 Speaker 1: any given day, and so to experience that with a 618 00:33:39,497 --> 00:33:44,097 Speaker 1: collection can be such a delight too. Yeah. Absolutely. I 619 00:33:44,137 --> 00:33:47,857 Speaker 1: think that my first book was largely coming of age stories, 620 00:33:47,857 --> 00:33:50,257 Speaker 1: and so a lot of them follow a pretty classic 621 00:33:50,417 --> 00:33:53,577 Speaker 1: narrative arc, right, where the emotional event of the story 622 00:33:53,617 --> 00:33:55,897 Speaker 1: and the sort of actual event or narrative enter plot 623 00:33:55,937 --> 00:33:58,177 Speaker 1: event are the same thing. Right. Something is somebody's making 624 00:33:58,177 --> 00:34:00,657 Speaker 1: a decision or something's happening, and that's what people are 625 00:34:00,657 --> 00:34:03,177 Speaker 1: reacting to. And I think these stories are a little 626 00:34:03,217 --> 00:34:05,337 Speaker 1: bit different, not all of them, but a lot of them, 627 00:34:05,937 --> 00:34:09,377 Speaker 1: in that sometimes it's sort of the active plot really 628 00:34:09,537 --> 00:34:12,817 Speaker 1: is about the day to day choices being made to 629 00:34:12,857 --> 00:34:15,777 Speaker 1: evade or avoid the thing that actually matters, and so 630 00:34:15,977 --> 00:34:20,537 Speaker 1: the moment in the story that's actually where the emotional 631 00:34:20,537 --> 00:34:23,337 Speaker 1: plot comes to the surface is when someone sort of 632 00:34:23,337 --> 00:34:25,977 Speaker 1: can't run from the thing that matters anymore. It's a 633 00:34:26,057 --> 00:34:28,817 Speaker 1: kind of different narrative shape, but I had fun with it, 634 00:34:28,857 --> 00:34:31,417 Speaker 1: and I think maybe amplifies that sort of sense of 635 00:34:31,897 --> 00:34:34,377 Speaker 1: there is a surface plot that sometimes just does feel 636 00:34:34,417 --> 00:34:36,577 Speaker 1: like somebody kind of going through their day to day 637 00:34:36,857 --> 00:34:38,777 Speaker 1: and there's something underneath it, and it sort of comes 638 00:34:38,777 --> 00:34:40,777 Speaker 1: closer and closer to the surface as you get closer 639 00:34:40,777 --> 00:34:44,777 Speaker 1: and closer to the end of the story. That was 640 00:34:44,857 --> 00:34:48,577 Speaker 1: Daniel Evans tagging sa Gretta Johnson on wb easy's nerd 641 00:34:48,577 --> 00:34:52,097 Speaker 1: At podcast. You can find that conversation and many many 642 00:34:52,137 --> 00:34:57,217 Speaker 1: more wherever you find podcasts. In our final episode of 643 00:34:57,217 --> 00:34:59,817 Speaker 1: this season, I'll be joined by the one and only 644 00:35:00,017 --> 00:35:04,217 Speaker 1: Viola Davis discuss her incredible career and of course her 645 00:35:04,257 --> 00:35:07,937 Speaker 1: new memoir Finding Me. The episode is out right now, 646 00:35:08,057 --> 00:35:23,497 Speaker 1: so keep listening well read. Black Girl is a production 647 00:35:23,617 --> 00:35:27,137 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. It is written and hosted by me 648 00:35:27,657 --> 00:35:31,937 Speaker 1: Glory Dam and produced by cher Vincent and Brittany Brown. 649 00:35:33,297 --> 00:35:37,617 Speaker 1: Our associate editor is Keishall Williams. Our engineer is Amanda 650 00:35:37,737 --> 00:35:43,057 Speaker 1: ka Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Our executive 651 00:35:43,097 --> 00:35:47,937 Speaker 1: producers are Mia Lobell and Leet Hall Molad at Pushkin 652 00:35:48,097 --> 00:35:53,497 Speaker 1: Thanks to Heather Fane, Carly Migliori, Jason Gambrau, Julia Barton, 653 00:35:54,217 --> 00:35:59,857 Speaker 1: Jen Gowera, John Schnars, and Jacob Wiseberg. You can find 654 00:35:59,857 --> 00:36:02,617 Speaker 1: me on Twitter and Instagram at Well read black Girl. 655 00:36:02,937 --> 00:36:05,817 Speaker 1: You can find Pushkin and all social media platforms at 656 00:36:05,817 --> 00:36:08,817 Speaker 1: pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for our newsletter 657 00:36:08,857 --> 00:36:12,977 Speaker 1: at pushkin dot Fm. If you have a question, a recommendation, 658 00:36:13,137 --> 00:36:15,657 Speaker 1: or you just want to say hi, email us at 659 00:36:15,817 --> 00:36:20,937 Speaker 1: WRBG at pushkin dot fm. If you love this show 660 00:36:20,937 --> 00:36:25,137 Speaker 1: and others from Pushkin industry, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. 661 00:36:25,617 --> 00:36:29,377 Speaker 1: Pushgn Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content 662 00:36:29,457 --> 00:36:33,537 Speaker 1: and uninterrupted listening for four ninety nine a month. Look 663 00:36:33,537 --> 00:36:37,297 Speaker 1: for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you're 664 00:36:37,297 --> 00:36:40,537 Speaker 1: already a subscriber, make sure to check out my exclusive 665 00:36:40,617 --> 00:36:44,417 Speaker 1: Bookmark series. You'll hear extended interviews with book club members, 666 00:36:44,537 --> 00:36:48,177 Speaker 1: bookstore owners, and more. And do you get to hear 667 00:36:48,217 --> 00:36:51,497 Speaker 1: What's on my mind, What's on my radar, and of 668 00:36:51,537 --> 00:36:55,417 Speaker 1: course what's on my reading list each week. To find 669 00:36:55,457 --> 00:37:00,377 Speaker 1: more Pushkin podcasts, listen on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or 670 00:37:00,417 --> 00:37:01,977 Speaker 1: wherever you like to listen.