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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio. Hey Zeron, Do

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Speaker 1: I know you? No? Oh cool? What's your name? Hey?

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Speaker 1: You know I'm Elizabeth Utton. Nice to meet you. You

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Speaker 1: know it's ridiculous. I do Zarin. Oh yes, pet rocks.

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Speaker 1: That ridiculous, right, Okay, if you just stop, just stop period.

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Speaker 1: Pet rocks. I've heard I heard about him, So I decided, like,

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Speaker 1: what is a pet rock? I went and looked it up,

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Speaker 1: and there's like a lot more to this than I

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Speaker 1: realized really. So it was this dude named Gary Doll.

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Speaker 1: He was an advertising executive. He was talking with his

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Speaker 1: friends at a bar and they were talking about, like

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Speaker 1: complaining about I gotta walk my dog and get up

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Speaker 1: so early in the morning. And he's like, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: would be the perfect pet of rock. And they were

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Speaker 1: like yeah whatever, Gary, and say He's like oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: And he went out and he decided I'm gonna make

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Speaker 1: pet rocks into a thing. So he did. And so

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Speaker 1: he decides he gets custom cardboard boxes made. He gets

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Speaker 1: this little like uh like feeding and care instructions thing

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Speaker 1: that's filled with like puns like try to teach your

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Speaker 1: your pet rock to do tricks like sit and stay right,

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Speaker 1: and then there's difficult ones like come like, don't want

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Speaker 1: to be able to figure out that one yet maybe

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Speaker 1: you can that kind of jokes. Right, Well, anyway, it

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Speaker 1: lasted six months, the whole fat right. But in that

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Speaker 1: time he sells millions of these. He sells like about

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Speaker 1: one million of them for about four dollars each in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies dollars, which is like wild to me. He

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Speaker 1: becomes a millionaire. He then buys a bar in Los Gatos.

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Speaker 1: He's a local, Oh, I know, California locally. Yeah. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: he regrets doing it. In nineteen eighty eight, he said,

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Speaker 1: sometimes I look back and wonder if my life would

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Speaker 1: have been simple or if I hadn't done it. Oh,

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Speaker 1: he got things got complicated after that. Oh yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean people would like just like sue him about my

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Speaker 1: pet rock dropped on my foot or I don't know,

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Speaker 1: he's getting a lot of lawsuits from cranks and waccos. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: Gary Doll pet rocks. There you go. That is ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what else is ridiculous? No, tell me

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Speaker 1: a badass woman who stands up to the mob and

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Speaker 1: black hitler. This is ridiculous crime a podcast about absurd

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Speaker 1: and outrageous capers, heists, and cons. It's always ninety nine

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Speaker 1: percent murder free and one ridiculous that we're murder free, right, Yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: so you're going to day. Well, that basically means that

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Speaker 1: the crimes that we cover aren't specifically murder, and the

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Speaker 1: criminals we cover aren't murders. We've both said that we

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Speaker 1: can't make light of the last day of someone's life

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Speaker 1: and the horrific events it's around it no good, and

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Speaker 1: you know that day is also the worst day of

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Speaker 1: the lives of that person's loved ones, Right, So we

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Speaker 1: keep it light and I'm going to do that today. Okay,

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing. The woman I'm going to tell

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Speaker 1: you about is murder adjacent. We'll say you already said

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Speaker 1: black Hitler's I'm figuring this one's gonna get wild, little

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Speaker 1: fid Well. Her crimes are incredible and ridiculous in all

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Speaker 1: senses of the word, but murder seems to like swirl

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Speaker 1: around her. Okay, So she didn't really kill anyone. She's

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Speaker 1: a murder black hole. It's just happening around her. She

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Speaker 1: fought a guy in self defense and he fell and

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Speaker 1: hit his head. Okay, but her life is so so,

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Speaker 1: so much more than that other guy fell on knife

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Speaker 1: seven times exactly. And she's so fascinating that I figured

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Speaker 1: I'd use up our one percent on this. Okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: into it all right. So I'm talking today about Stephanie

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Speaker 1: Saint Clair. Oh, yes, aka Queenie Saint Clair, aka Madame Queen,

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Speaker 1: Madame Saint Clair and Queen of the policy rackets. For

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Speaker 1: some respect on her name. Yes, Stephanie Saint Clair born

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Speaker 1: on Christmas Eve eighteen ninety seven in Mule, Grandtaire, West

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Speaker 1: French Indies, you say so. Yes. She was born of

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Speaker 1: African descent to a single mother named Felicienne, beautiful name,

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Speaker 1: I know, Felicienne. She made sure that Stephanie went to school,

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Speaker 1: but then Feliciane got sick, so at fifteen years old,

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Speaker 1: Stephanie dropped out in order to take care of her mom.

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Speaker 1: After her mom passed away, Stephanie moved from the West

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Speaker 1: Indies to Montreal, Moan and she was part most likely

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Speaker 1: part of the nineteen ten to nineteen eleven Caribbean domestic

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Speaker 1: scheme that moved domestic workers up to Canada. So one

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Speaker 1: of the Great North migrations for Canada. Yeah, exactly, and

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Speaker 1: specifically to Quebec. So from there she immigrates to the

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Speaker 1: United States. She gets to New York in nineteen twelve.

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Speaker 1: She speaks English, Spanish, French, and that means she can

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Speaker 1: like skillfully navigate a lot of neighborhoods and a lot

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Speaker 1: of situations. Oh yeah, and she's slide in three situations

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Speaker 1: a bit totally well. So she has this brief relationship

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Speaker 1: after she gets her with a small time crook named Duke,

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Speaker 1: and he got caught up in nasty business and he

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Speaker 1: met a terrible end. But it had she had nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with it, is not by her hand. So

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Speaker 1: then she meets this new guy ed she decides to

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Speaker 1: sell drugs with it. Okay, with some help from ed um,

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Speaker 1: she makes thirty thousand dollars. Do we know what drugs

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Speaker 1: she was selling? No, but I'm thinking, what is it

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifteen, Like I'm figuring like it's cocaine adjacent type

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Speaker 1: stuff or even yeah, some of the good gauge weed. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So she makes them jazz. She makes thirty thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: after just a few months, okay, and then she decides

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Speaker 1: I don't need ed right, and Ed finds out and

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Speaker 1: then they have a disagreement and it didn't end well

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Speaker 1: because he fell. Oh right, another guy fell bad. That's

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Speaker 1: the guy that fell. So after this, she's like, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to hire my own crew of guys I'm hiring

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Speaker 1: When he fell, did he fall off a building or

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Speaker 1: like he just felt backwards? Okay, I'll just wonder. You said,

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Speaker 1: hell backwards. You can fall off a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: He was clumsy. Yeah. Yeah, So she was like bribing

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Speaker 1: the cops to leave her alone, and then um, this

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Speaker 1: new kind of gang that she had. She's got serious income.

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Speaker 1: So she takes ten thousand dollars of that and she

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Speaker 1: invests it into a lottery game in Harlem and the

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Speaker 1: numbers games. Well yeah, it's called policy banking. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: it's mix of gambling, investing, and then playing the lottery.

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Speaker 1: Policy banking wasn't really legal. The thing is, at the times,

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Speaker 1: bank weren't banks weren't accepting black clients. Yeah, so black

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Speaker 1: Americans couldn't legally invest their own money in white bank

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Speaker 1: you'd do, right, And so for many policy banking was

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Speaker 1: the only option if they wanted to grow their money.

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Speaker 1: If you didn't have black banks in your area, or

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Speaker 1: if you or if you'd run a foul the black well,

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Speaker 1: there's that too. Yeah. So it was common practice for

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Speaker 1: cosmopolitan black communities and major cities all over the country

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Speaker 1: to be involved in this numbers game as a means

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Speaker 1: of investing. Yeah. So there's this man, Stephen Robertson. He

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Speaker 1: wrote a book called Playing the Numbers, Gambling in Harlem

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Speaker 1: between the Wars, and he said of policy banking, quote,

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Speaker 1: it was akin to putting money in the stock market.

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Speaker 1: Many saw it as an investment, and it was just

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Speaker 1: as risky as putting money in the stock market back then.

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Speaker 1: So true, this is how it would work. Players would

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Speaker 1: place bets, so a nickel was considered a big bet

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Speaker 1: at the time, on a number between one and nine

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Speaker 1: hundred ninety nine. The organizers figured out what the winning

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Speaker 1: numbers were based on two figures, the total daily clearances

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Speaker 1: among all the member banks and the Federal Reserve Bank

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Speaker 1: credit balance. So they would combine the second and third

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Speaker 1: digits from the bank clearings with a third digit from

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Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve Bank balance. So, per Playing the Numbers

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Speaker 1: that book, the game worked out as such. The last

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Speaker 1: Monday before Christmas, nineteen thirty, the clearings were five hundred

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Speaker 1: eighty nine million dollars and the balance was one hundred

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Speaker 1: and sixteen million dollars. Hence the winning number was eight

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Speaker 1: nine six, So it's five eight eighty nine and then six.

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Speaker 1: Anyone who bet on eight ninety six got to pay out,

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Speaker 1: So this is going along great. Then in the late thirties,

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Speaker 1: financial institutions stopped announcing their daily figures, so the policy

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Speaker 1: bankers they had to figure out, where are we going

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Speaker 1: to get our numbers. They turned to the mutual totals

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Speaker 1: of what was paid out on horse races. So Saint Clair,

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Speaker 1: she's mathematically gifted. This is the numbers that I my

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Speaker 1: family played. I heard about this exactly. So she's she's

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Speaker 1: like this math whiz. Her lottery is just raking in cash.

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Speaker 1: She was such a boss that people started calling her

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Speaker 1: Queenie in Manhattan and Madame Saint Clair in Harlem. So

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Speaker 1: the Harlem numbers game, though that's a man's world at

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Speaker 1: this time. Oh yeah, she was like pretty much the

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Speaker 1: only woman out there and involved. But she's generating all

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Speaker 1: these jobs because her game is huge. She's making all

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Speaker 1: this money, so she's hiring numbers runners and Henchman and Henchman,

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Speaker 1: but she had like fifty runners at a time hired.

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Speaker 1: Do you know who worked as a numbers runner for

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Speaker 1: Queeny when she was a teenager, I don't know. Gordon Parks,

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Speaker 1: Ella Fitzgerald is not incredible. So she Queenie lives this

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Speaker 1: absolutely lavish lifestyle. In the twenties, she was making about

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Speaker 1: twenty thousand dollars a year, and that's kind of like

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Speaker 1: three hundred and fifty thousand dollars today. That's not bad

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Speaker 1: at a nineteen thirties there's this journalist who figured out

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Speaker 1: that Queeney was worth probably around five hundred thousand dollars,

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Speaker 1: so that's like eleven million dollars today. She owned property

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Speaker 1: and she was just like building wealth the only way

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Speaker 1: that she could. She lived in an apartment on four

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Speaker 1: o nine Edgecomb Avenue that's in sugar Hill, looking over

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Speaker 1: what is now Jackie Robinson Park. Yes, couple blocks from

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Speaker 1: the Harlem River. There were a lot of esteemed members

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Speaker 1: of the Harlem community living in this same building. Callaway

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Speaker 1: the painter Aaron Douglas, future Supreme Court justice. They're a

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Speaker 1: good night, Marshal Nice Duke Gellington in this mix web. So,

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Speaker 1: Katherine Butler Jones was a neighbor of hers, and she

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Speaker 1: remembers seeing Queeney in the halls. This is what she said,

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Speaker 1: Madam Stephanie Saint Clair raising through the lobby with her

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Speaker 1: fur coat dramatically flowing behind her. She had a mystical

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Speaker 1: aura about her, and she wore exotic dresses with a

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Speaker 1: colorful turban wrapped around her head. Yeah. So she's just

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Speaker 1: like floating through the goddess. Yeah. So she she donated

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Speaker 1: to organizations that were focused on racial progress, and voting

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Speaker 1: rights was a big thing for her. She regularly paid

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Speaker 1: for ads to involved in suffragist movements. Essentially well at

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Speaker 1: this point in the thirties, I backed it up to you.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but I mean before I'm sure. And so

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Speaker 1: she paid for ads in local papers because she wanted

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Speaker 1: to educate the community on their legal rights. Here's something

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Speaker 1: that she put in the Amsterdam News. Quote to the

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Speaker 1: members of my race, and that's in all caps. If

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Speaker 1: officers meet you on the street and suspect you of anything,

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Speaker 1: do not let them search you on the street, or

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Speaker 1: do not let them take you in any hallway to

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Speaker 1: be searched. If the police should ring your doorbell and

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Speaker 1: you open your door, refuse to let them search your

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Speaker 1: house unless they show you a search warrant. So it's

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Speaker 1: just these are our basic civil rights as Americans, something

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Speaker 1: that all of us should know. And at people because

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Speaker 1: didn't know, presume that if a cop is asking you questions,

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Speaker 1: that the best thing to do is to try to

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Speaker 1: exculpate yourself and tell them why you're in a right

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Speaker 1: and we're the best thing to do is not say

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Speaker 1: anything exactly everybody, And so she's wanting them to have

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Speaker 1: the same information as everybody else. I don't act like

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Speaker 1: a perp, right, So she was. She spoke out against

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Speaker 1: police brutality against the black community, and she filed complaints

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Speaker 1: about police harassment with local authorities. Um, I think it's

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Speaker 1: important to stop and acknowledge how dangerous that was for her.

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Speaker 1: Oh right, so the New York police she is brave

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Speaker 1: like to go ahead and bad racist at this time. Well,

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Speaker 1: of course nothing came of her complaints, right, probably not?

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Speaker 1: So what does she do? She ran more ads in

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Speaker 1: Harlem papers accusing senior officers of corruption. She just keeps

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Speaker 1: upping the antiamus. Here's this is from the nineteen, nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenty nine edition of the Amsterdam News quote, I don't

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Speaker 1: understand how these police who are supposed to be the

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Speaker 1: protection of the people can make raids for so called

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Speaker 1: policy slips when these same men are participants of the

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Speaker 1: game themselves. So she's calling out, look, you're my customers,

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Speaker 1: and then you turn around, you're going to raid me out,

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Speaker 1: thinks Okay, I love how she's just constantly taking out

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Speaker 1: ads in the papers. That's her bulletin board. So this

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Speaker 1: time though, when she calls out her own customers, she

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Speaker 1: gets a response. She got arrested. They came after her

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Speaker 1: and she wound up doing eight months in a workhouse

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Speaker 1: because of that. Would Queenie take this lying down? But no, no,

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Speaker 1: of course not. So she stayed cool. And then she

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Speaker 1: went and testified to the Seabury Commission, which was a

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Speaker 1: joint legislative committee formed by the New York legislature, And

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Speaker 1: that was because the governor FDR he had this probe

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Speaker 1: into corruption in New York City. So she tells them

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Speaker 1: all about the kickbacks that she paid to police officers.

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Speaker 1: She tells them all about the cops who played the

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Speaker 1: Harlem numbers games. This time she gets results. More than

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Speaker 1: a dozen officers were fired. Yeah, this is a big deal.

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Speaker 1: This is part of how he made his name exactly.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't just crooked cops and politicians that she

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Speaker 1: aired out in her newspaper ads. If men came courting

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Speaker 1: and she wasn't interested, she'd run ads. Oh yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is what she quote to whom it may concern. I

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Speaker 1: have received letters and telephone messages from men which have

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Speaker 1: annoyed me very much, and I take this occasion to

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Speaker 1: ask them publicly to please not annoy me. I, Mademoiselle

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Speaker 1: Saint clair Am, not looking for a husband or a sweetheart.

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Speaker 1: If you do not stop annoying me, I shall publish

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Speaker 1: their names and letters in the newspaper. And you know

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Speaker 1: who you are. Right. I love how everything she does

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Speaker 1: is from this really confident and serene place. She's unflappable.

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Speaker 1: She's definitely a queen. Yeah, she has definitely earned the name.

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Speaker 1: So prohibition comes and goes, the Harlem numbers game just

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Speaker 1: keeps cooking along. Oh yeah, it doesn't mean anything, but

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Speaker 1: another challenge is at hand. Dude, Harlem's number game runs

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Speaker 1: until like the seventies. No, it just keeps going. But

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Speaker 1: here's this thing pro lottery basically, yeah, pretty much, prohibition ends.

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Speaker 1: It had been big business for a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people like dancers and musicians. People you're

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Speaker 1: not thinking, you're not just people were bootleggers, but everybody

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Speaker 1: in the work the club. But when you look at

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Speaker 1: the bootleggers, they have to find a new source of revenue.

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Speaker 1: When we come back, I'll tell you who moved where

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Speaker 1: and how and why? Nice? All right, we're back. Hey,

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Speaker 1: look at us, Say Elizabeth, what you do when we've

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Speaker 1: left off. Let me give you a little recap. Queenie

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Speaker 1: Saint Clair, she was ruling the policy bank numbers game,

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Speaker 1: had worked hard for people in her community. She also

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Speaker 1: had now had a principal, Lieutenant Ellsworth Bumpy Johnson Bumpy.

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Speaker 1: He was a culture gentleman, but he was also a badass. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh yes he is. He They called him Bumpy because

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Speaker 1: he had a large bone on his forehead. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: he and Queeney they're basically running her element at this point.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, they're raking in the dough. They're living these

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Speaker 1: really comfortable lifestyles. Prohibitions coming going has no effect. Now

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Speaker 1: are they partners? Were member business like seers like, we

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Speaker 1: both get it exactly. I like this. She got some

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Speaker 1: on her level totally. So prohibition comes to an end.

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Speaker 1: Other criminal elements are losing money. No more illicit hooch

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Speaker 1: to sell. As such, this means that there's a loss

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Speaker 1: of the cash cow for both the Jewish and Italian

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Speaker 1: crime families in New York, among among other diversification. They

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Speaker 1: make a move on the Harlem gambling scene. Oh yes,

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Speaker 1: they did so, as you said, Bronx mob boss Arthur

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Speaker 1: dutch Schultz Flagenheimer. Oh yeah, he kicked it off. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's the one. He gave the black and brown communities

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Speaker 1: in Harlem two options, give up their numbers business to

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Speaker 1: him or kind of in on the action. Those are

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Speaker 1: the choices. So dutch Schultz, he has high powered politicians

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Speaker 1: on his payroll, everybody, he had James Pines, leader of

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Speaker 1: Tammany Hall, everybody on his parents. And he'd also beat

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Speaker 1: and kill anyone who didn't go along with his protection scheme. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was ruthless totally. So this led New York State

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Speaker 1: Special Prosecutor Thomas Dewey. And he was smart as hell too.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he wasn't one of those like twitchy mobsters.

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Speaker 1: This is somebody who was calculating cold and would have

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Speaker 1: been an amazing business man legitimately well, Thomas Dewey says

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Speaker 1: that he's public enemy number one because he was the

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Speaker 1: guy he ran. Now. Queeney, though, she's as brave and

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Speaker 1: as steadfast as ever, even when faced with Dutch Schultz,

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Speaker 1: she said, quote, I'm not a f of Dutch Schultz

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Speaker 1: or any other living man. He'll never touch me. I

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Speaker 1: will kill Schultz if he sets foot in Harlem. He's

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Speaker 1: a rat. The policy game is my game. Wow, that's

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Speaker 1: a huge statement to him tending to kill Dutch, So

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Speaker 1: that's not even it. So then Queeney and Bumpy they

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Speaker 1: send a message to Dutch by attacking business storefronts that

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Speaker 1: ran his own betting operations. They all on the attack. Queeney,

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Speaker 1: what else did she do? She took to the papers again,

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Speaker 1: so she started running ads encouraging the people of Harlem

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Speaker 1: to quote play black. So she's like she wanted gamblers

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Speaker 1: to only use black owned and controlled operations, right, So

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Speaker 1: she and Bumpy then they tip off the police about

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Speaker 1: Schultz's illegal activities. They raid Schultz's house, more than a

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Speaker 1: dozen of his men get arrested. They seize the equivalent

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Speaker 1: of about twelve million in cash today. Snap, what does

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Speaker 1: dutch Schultz do? He retaliates, Oh, violently. I imagine he

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Speaker 1: calls Queene at her own home and threatens her, and

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Speaker 1: that of course didn't work. He then kidnapped and murdered

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Speaker 1: her men. So there's there's our one person, some of

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Speaker 1: our one percon Yes, and she wouldn't budge. She's like

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Speaker 1: no by her men. Do you mean her henchman? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So then dutch Schultz puts a hit out on Queenie. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is what she had to say about it. We

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Speaker 1: know who who he hired for. No, she said she

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Speaker 1: hid in a cellar, quote while the super a friend

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Speaker 1: of mine, covered me with coal. So she knew that

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Speaker 1: the killer was coming in the building. Went to the cellar.

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Speaker 1: Super the superintendent of the building covers her with coal

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Speaker 1: to hide. Wow. Another time, Yeah, another time Schultz sent

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Speaker 1: a henchman to intimidate her. But you know Queeny's going

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Speaker 1: to Queenie. Yes, So she got the jump on him.

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Speaker 1: She pushed him into a closet, locked him in, and

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Speaker 1: then ordered her bodyguards to quote take care of him.

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Speaker 1: So that's another part of our one persons. Well, I

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Speaker 1: don't know for certain though, that she meant what we

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Speaker 1: all think she meant, because like maybe she understood that

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Speaker 1: hurt people hurt people, and that she wanted her men

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Speaker 1: to have an encounter therapy session with the guy, like

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Speaker 1: nurture him into a kinder state, lots of cozy blankets

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00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 1: and comfort for you, take care of him, take care

340
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:15,320
Speaker 1: of him, feel good. Well anyway, so Duch shelts, he's

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Speaker 1: like bringing way too much danger and way too much

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Speaker 1: police attention and death. Why can't Queeny do her thing

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Speaker 1: in peace? That's what I wanted. She picked a fight

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Speaker 1: with mad touch shots. Well, she knew what she had

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Speaker 1: to do. She went legit she did. She passed the

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Speaker 1: crown to Bumpy, and she said, you're now in charge

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Speaker 1: of my entire criminal enterprise, and she trusted him. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but what did Bumpy do? Well, Bumpy turned around and

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Speaker 1: made a deal with who Luck. So Lucky took over

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Speaker 1: Schultz's spots with a percentage going to Bumpy, and the

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Speaker 1: Italians now had to go through Bumpy if they had

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Speaker 1: any problems in Harlem. And that was the safest option

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Speaker 1: for Bumpy. That is the absolute smasting for good done. Yep,

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Speaker 1: so lucky Luciano. He felt like all of Dutch Schultz's

355
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Speaker 1: craziness was damaging the entire Cosin Nostra in New York.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty five, he went to the commission the

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Speaker 1: bosses of the Five Families, and he had a hit

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Speaker 1: put on Shoults. He pretty much it helped form the commission.

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Speaker 1: I mean Frank Costello. There's a bunch of people, but

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Speaker 1: he's like a major player, the one who he goes

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Speaker 1: to them. He's like, Schultz is a problem. Put a

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Speaker 1: hit on him, he asks for it, he gets it.

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Speaker 1: Um Schultz. He gets sprayed with bullets while on the

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Speaker 1: toilet at the Palace chop House in Newark, New Jersey,

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Speaker 1: and he gets taken to the hospital. Queen, he had

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with the shooting. Can I just say

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Speaker 1: that she's not part there? However, she wasn't mourning the guy.

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Speaker 1: So when she found out, she wired a telegram to

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Speaker 1: his deathbed and this is what it said, Yes, this

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Speaker 1: is what it said, as ye's so, so shall ye

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Speaker 1: reap Galai six seven on that one? That's amazing And

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Speaker 1: she signed it Madame Queen of Policy. She's stone cold

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Speaker 1: on top this this act made the papers. The pers

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Speaker 1: sending the te made the paper. How did the nurses tell?

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Speaker 1: I guess Dutch Shultz. He died on October twenty fourth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty five, one day after the shooting. I suppose

377
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Speaker 1: reaping when he had sown. Oh yeah. So after this,

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Speaker 1: Queenie eventually led a man into her life. She found

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Speaker 1: a partner and a man named sufi Abdul Hamid or

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Speaker 1: Eugene Brown. Oh okay. Before he moved to New York,

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Speaker 1: he'd been living in Chicago, calling himself Bishop Conshunkin, a

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Speaker 1: Buddhist cleric. Okay, so he's not like Noble drew Alie.

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Speaker 1: I thought he's like Black Moorish. Oh yeah, he is,

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Speaker 1: oh okay. So he was the eventual leader of an

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Speaker 1: Islamic Buddhist cult. He's a black separatist. Yes, and he

386
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Speaker 1: used to tell people that he was born in the

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Speaker 1: shadows of the Egyptian Pyramids. I guess of then, yeah,

388
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Speaker 1: he wanted to make a move. Of course, of course

389
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Speaker 1: he did. So he goes to Queeny and he asks

390
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Speaker 1: for money fund my dream project. We're in the in

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Speaker 1: the forties at this point, thirties okay, and she says no.

392
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Speaker 1: But they kept in contact okay. And then one night

393
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Speaker 1: he declared his love and said will you marry me?

394
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Speaker 1: And she said give me three days to think it over. Well,

395
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Speaker 1: they really stayed in content, huh. And then after three

396
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Speaker 1: days she goes, yep, I'll marry you. She accepts. What

397
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 1: so in nineteen thirty six they get married. What's the scam?

398
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:35,439
Speaker 1: What's the angle? Queenie? But not legally so Hamide. He

399
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 1: draws up a contract that binds their mutual assets as

400
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 1: well as them their persons for ninety nine years. This

401
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: is some weird like, I don't trust a man who

402
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 1: wants to tign a content. And this also made it

403
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 1: into the papers, this whole union right. There was a

404
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 1: particularly barbed account of the marriage in a paper called

405
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Speaker 1: The New York Age. Familiar with it? Yeah, I know

406
00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 1: that it exists. It's a prominant black paper. At the time.

407
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 1: They kind of roast Hamide, making fun of his outfit.

408
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 1: This is what how they described his clothes. Quote. His

409
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 1: perennial garb, in addition to his turban, comprises a green

410
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,160
Speaker 1: cape and a shirt, knee breeches and writing booths. Wait

411
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: knee breeches and a cape. Dudes walk around Harlem and

412
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: knee breaches. He's like his own special superhero. They took

413
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 1: digs at him, claiming to be oh, and they like

414
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 1: pointed out his criminal history. And then they really went

415
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Speaker 1: hard at Queeney really because this is what they said.

416
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Speaker 1: They said they didn't believe her claims that dutch Schultz

417
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Speaker 1: wanted to kill her. This is what it said. Quote.

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Speaker 1: It was this writer's opinion throughout the publicity seekers rantings

419
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Speaker 1: that it was beneath dutch Schultz's dignity to waste valuable

420
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Speaker 1: ammunition to silence her. Sounds like some black intellectuals jealous. Well,

421
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: it was known as the distinguished Black newspaper of opinion. Yeah,

422
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 1: they're not gonna celebrate criminals, but the whole high minded

423
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 1: like oh and then also with the cutting dismissing part,

424
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 1: like so they're also lifting him up at the same time,

425
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 1: like he wouldn't have busy business with you. That's the

426
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: come on now, So anyway, go back to your Claude

427
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 1: McKay poetry. Back up. So, anyway, all of Queenie's resources

428
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: were bound to Hamide. Thanks to this contract, ten grand

429
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: was placed in a trust of his was placed in

430
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: a trust for her. Oh he does have something, well,

431
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 1: I don't know who's ten grand wasn't really his. The

432
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 1: document though, wasn't legally binding, but he said it was

433
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: binding under Sharia law. What the he is a Muslim

434
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: Buddhist who follows Sharia law of his own making. Yeah, okay,

435
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: you just want to keep ending. Yeah, we're on the

436
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: same green It gets so much better slash words. The

437
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 1: contract also had a clause though, that the couple had

438
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: a year to figure out if this relationship would actually work.

439
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: If it didn't, they would split and the contract would

440
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: be avoided. So there was an annulment clause. Kind Yeah, essentially,

441
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: if they feel it was it was working after a year,

442
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: then they would get married for real in the eyes

443
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: of the US government. Oh they doubled down. Yeah, so

444
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 1: so Hamide, he's setting off alarm bells for you, a

445
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 1: million of them. He should rightly so, like a china

446
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: shop he had. He had a nickname. Yeah, it's a

447
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 1: bad one. Yeah, let me set this up for you.

448
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 1: A historian named Murray Friedman wrote a book called What

449
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: Went Wrong The Creation and Collapse of the Black Jewish Alliance.

450
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: In it, he talks about how Hamide had quote courted

451
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: the German American booned and and the Nazi like Christian Front. Yeah,

452
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: the German American booned from thirty late thirties. Yeah, it's

453
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: all coming together, chanting the marching. Amide was a strong

454
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: advocate for hiring of black employees. That's great, that's valid, sure,

455
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: but he created a negative to balance out that positive

456
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: by orchestrating violent boycotts against Jewish owned and Italian and Greek.

457
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 1: That's why doesn't matter. There's also his fashion choices. He

458
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: liked to wear out fits that incorporated Nazi style military

459
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: shirts big Hugo boss fan, and he wore a dagger

460
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: in his belt get out and he required cape, the

461
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: gold lined cape. And he also wore a purple turban. Yeah,

462
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: he looks unhinged in picture. Why would Queen he go

463
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 1: for this? Well, and also that doesn't make sense, what

464
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: is she doing? His anti Semitic hate speech was off

465
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: the charts, super offensive, super dangerous, and as such, he

466
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: was known throughout the community as Black Hitler. So wait

467
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: a minute, if you're known as Black Hitler in the thirties,

468
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: the third before, when Hitler was first making a name

469
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 1: from the hibster of Hitler's. He's like, oh, you haven't

470
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: heard about him yet. Not everyone knows this guy coming up,

471
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: and I'm the black hymn so horrible, I mean, what

472
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: the hell? Bro like? Well, and he had a labor union,

473
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: of course, it went through name changes. First it was

474
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: called the Negro Industrial and Clerical Alliance, Then it was

475
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: the Afro American Federation of Labor. Adam Clayton Powell what

476
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,239
Speaker 1: the first African American to be elected to Congress from

477
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: New York. He worked with him for a short time

478
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: in labor protests store boycotts. Powell dipped out when this

479
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 1: is what's interesting, when Himid went from just targeting whites

480
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: and Jews to going after light skinned black people like himself.

481
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: That's where he drew the line. Adam to talk. So

482
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: he has this labor union, well, rival black labor unions

483
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: didn't like his labor bet not. He would collect these

484
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: one dollar dues from each unemployed black worker who wanted

485
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: a job at a store before he'd start a pressure

486
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: campaign to get him hired. But the campaign is not falling.

487
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 1: He's getting really wealthy off of this, so he's charging

488
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: people money to have does it basically say if you

489
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: give me this dollar, I'll go put pressure on these

490
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: people to hire you. And they're like, all right, bet,

491
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 1: and he's doing it for like a lot of people,

492
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: and it was like they only have so many spots,

493
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: and he's like, look, I we're gonna get you a

494
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: job dollar a week. I'll go and puts costume and

495
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: black Hid are going to get it done. So one

496
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: of his critics was Hammy Snipes. Okay it was a

497
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: political activist and a former member of Marcus Garvey's Universal

498
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: Negro Improvement Association in African Communities League. Snipes was critical

499
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: of Hamid and his tactics, and Hamid didn't like that.

500
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: So in October nineteen thirty six, Snipes is giving this speech,

501
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: He's calling for equal pay for African American members of

502
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: the meat cutters union. Hamid and his buddy Alan McAlpine

503
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: they attacked Snipes and they stabbed him in the arms. Oh,

504
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 1: physically attacktives. Yeah yeah, I thought you were saying like rhetorically, no, no,

505
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: this is where they like start stepping across lines. Snipes

506
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: gets ten stitches and the growing support of the community.

507
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: So Hamide he gets twenty days in prison and then

508
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: is eventually barred from picketing. That's it. So in response,

509
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: he's like, fine, you won't let me pick it. I'm

510
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: going to start a mosque, the Universal Holy Temple of Tranquility.

511
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: So he's like one of the first black Muslims in

512
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: this country, but he wasn't a so seated with Nation

513
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: of Islam. Yeah, I assuming he's basically a rival of

514
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: Noble drew a Lee, same time, same area, and he's

515
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: coming up with his version of like a back to

516
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: Africa spiritual movement. Right, he's when Marcus Garvey's going to

517
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: try to get you there, I'm going to try to

518
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: get your spirit there exactly exactly. So it was very

519
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: It was a heady man. He starts calling himself a bishop,

520
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: which okay, of course made the funny hat. He gets

521
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: a brand new nickname. He's no longer a black Hitler,

522
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: black miter, black moftie. I was close so August in

523
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: August nineteen thirty seven, he opened his organization to Jewish members.

524
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: So wait, now he's cool. Now he's with the chosen

525
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: people because he needs what from them? Money? I guess,

526
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. He'll take anyone with money. I would suppose.

527
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: I don't know. So he's doing his thing, he's running

528
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: his mosque and he's running around on Queeney. Yeah, let's

529
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: take a break. Let's let's let's work on this. Oh

530
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: my god, let's get calm down. Let's listen to some

531
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: smooth ads. Just cool out. When we get back, I'll

532
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: tell you what happens when you cross Queenie. Hey's Aaron

533
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: a good good Okay, those commercials are really smarting. No. Right,

534
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: So when we left off Queene Saint Clair, she'd married

535
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: Black Hitler. Yes, he's a black separatist general slees Ball,

536
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: anti Semit con man philandrap embarrassment to her and the race. Yes.

537
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: Three ten pm on January eighteenth, nineteen thirty eight, Hamid

538
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: Black Hitler. He's heading out of his apartment on three

539
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: O nine West one hundred and twenty fifth Street in Harlem.

540
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: This is thirty eight before. I'm just trying to find

541
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: the year. Yeah, and he's on his way to go

542
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: see his lawyer and he runs into Queeny in the

543
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: third floor hallway. Zaren close you? Oh yeah, I want

544
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: you to picture it. You're on foot and you've just

545
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: left the Apollo theater. You're in charge of booking acts there.

546
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: You're walking down West one hundred and twenty fifth Street

547
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: on a quick break before you head back to work.

548
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: You want to get some air, maybe stop in somewhere

549
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: for an egg cream. There's a great fountain not too

550
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: far up the street. You're whistling some Mozart as you walk.

551
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: As you pass the five story apartment building on three

552
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: O nine West twenty fifth, you decide to poke your

553
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: head in and say hi to your friend, Clarence Dade.

554
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: He's the elevator operator there. He loves Mozart, and you

555
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: just got a bunch of records from Europe that you

556
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: want to share with him. A few weeks ago, on Christmas,

557
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: the two of you had listened to Arturo Tuscanini conduct

558
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: the NBC Symphony Orchestra on US radio for the first time. Now,

559
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: it was mostly Vivaldi, whom no one seemed to really

560
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: play at the time, but there was a lot of

561
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: Mozart and Brahms. And you've been whistling ever since. I'm

562
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: you are You step into the lobby, you Greek Clarence.

563
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: You're just about to tell him about the records when

564
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: a shot rings out, then another, then another. Clarence looks stunned.

565
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: The two of you race up the stairs, listening at

566
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: each landing to see if that's where the shot originated.

567
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: You reach the third floor landing and Clarence yaged the

568
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: door open. You stay in stairwell in case you have

569
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: to run back down for help. You peek into the

570
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: hall and you see Clarence standing over a large man

571
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: who's sprawled on the floor. A well dressed woman stands

572
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: beside them. That's Queenie Saint Clair. You think to yourself.

573
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: A few doors down a neighbor woman had her head

574
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: it poked out the door. Is he okay? Asked that

575
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: resident Nettie Roach. She's panicked. He's alive, replies Clarence Zarin.

576
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: Run down to the lobby and call for help. It

577
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: You dash down the stairs in elegant Zaren style, speed

578
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: lifting yourself off the banisters in like early Parkour arches

579
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: and leaps. You grab the phone and you hit the

580
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: receiver for the operator. Queeny Saint Clair just shot Black Hiller.

581
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: You're about to tell the operator that it served him right,

582
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: but you keep that to yourself. The police arrived. Queeney's arrested,

583
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: Black Hitler lived, So there's no one percent involved here, Queenie.

584
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: She gave interviews in the weeks leading up to the trial.

585
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,479
Speaker 1: She posed for photographs from her room in the women's

586
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: detention prison in Manhattan, as well as photos at the

587
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: one twenty third Street police station. So she's just making

588
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: an event of it. At the trial, Queeney testified that

589
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: Hamid was a gambler, that he was involved in business

590
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: ventures that went nowhere, wiped out all his cash, and

591
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: he was just constantly asking her for money. What really

592
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: ground her gears though, was that Hamid had a mistress.

593
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: She was a Jamaican fortune teller named Dorothy Matthews who

594
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: went by the name Fu Fundam. Yeah, Fu fu Ttam

595
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: fo fum. Queeney accused Fundam and Hamid of trying to

596
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: start businesses using her money. What was one of the

597
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: ventures selling manure. Queeney also said that they tried to

598
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: poison her and it wasn't a killer, but to gain

599
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: her trust by quote unquote caring for her in her state. Yeah,

600
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: and then she would like they would try and get

601
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: her to give them loans when she was all dazed. Yeah,

602
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: So talking about that confrontation in the hallway. This is

603
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: what Queeny said. Quote, I didn't want to kill him.

604
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: I only wanted to scare him. If I killed him,

605
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: I would have died. So she loves him. Oh okay, yeah,

606
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: I got you now. It took me a second. But

607
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: what I think it was, I meant no, I don't know,

608
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: so I'm just wondering, Queeny says. Queeny says that the

609
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: gun is a means right. Quote. When I tried to

610
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: grab the gun from him, he threw me against the

611
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: wall and bit my finger. It was during the struggle

612
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: to gain possession of the gun to keep him from

613
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: killing me that it went off three times. Yeah. She

614
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: holds up her hand. She's got her fingers wrapt in

615
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: white tape. She slowly unwraps the tape and shows the

616
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: jury her wounds from where he bitter black hitler bit

617
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: my finger. And then they have this nurse Rosa Glover,

618
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: she's from the detention center. She comes and she verifies, yeah,

619
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: those are teeth marks on her hand. Um, Nettie Roach

620
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 1: that neighbor that you saw in the hall She backs

621
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: up Queeney's testimony. She says, look, I looked out Hamid's

622
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: holding the gun and said I'll shoot you to Queenie.

623
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: So that's what the neighbor sees. Queenie's lawyer gets Hamide

624
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: to admit that his real name is Eugene Brown and

625
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: that he was from Philadelphia, like h Rat Brown's dad,

626
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: I think. So he admitted that Dorothy Matthew's aka Fo Fatam,

627
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 1: Buttim was his mistress. Okay, so he confesses to that.

628
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: Queenie's attorney he get he got one hundred dollars fine.

629
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 1: When he tried to push Hamid to talk about how

630
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: he got the nickname black Hitler. Do you imagine him

631
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 1: like in court, like her name's wrap up, like who

632
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 1: here would go back in time and kill baby black Hitler?

633
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: Do you think he had like the dash L at

634
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 1: the end of his name. Oh yeah, well that you

635
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: know that's black mors, So he probably didn't. He probably

636
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: had dash m because he wanted to be distinct. He's

637
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: the next So the lawyer right is like, tell us

638
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: how why they call you black Hitler? They just like

639
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: knock it off. That's immaterial, and now you gotta pay

640
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: one hundred dollars fine because you won't let it go.

641
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 1: Because he wouldn't stop with the black lighter. I know. Um,

642
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 1: so what did Hamid say? He claimed that Queeney shot

643
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: him on site three times, beimming. He said that the

644
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: first shot singed his mustache and chipped his teeth. The

645
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: second one chipped his teeth. Uh was she fired a

646
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 1: twenty two? The second one grazed his arm and burned

647
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: his coat. What the third bullet lodged in a wall?

648
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: So you're pal Clarence. He testified too. He said that

649
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: he heard a boom and then he heard hamide yell

650
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: I am shot. He said that he heard Queeney say

651
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: as he approached, he's lying. He was shooting at me. So, Clarence,

652
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 1: here's the whole conversation. The patrolman who made the arrest

653
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: also testified. His name is Frederick Damro. No he was

654
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: called to the stand by the prosecution. Damro said he

655
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 1: questioned Queeny right after the shooting. He asked her, why

656
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: did you shoot your husband? She replied, I got tired

657
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: of paying. Queeny denied ever speaking to him or any

658
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 1: police staff in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. That

659
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: lines up with her standard practice. Right. It should be noted, though,

660
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: six months after the trial damro. He gets indicted for

661
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: conspiracy and grand larceny for setting up and shaking down

662
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: a Hungarian upholstery manufacturer. No a dirty New York century.

663
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: His word isn't really worth much, and his actions lined

664
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: up with what Queeney had been saying her whole life. Anyway.

665
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: Unfortunately for Queeny, a ballistic specialist testified and said the

666
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: gun had to be at least eighteen inches away from

667
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 1: Hamid when it went off, so she plt her in

668
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: a tussle. She pulled her on back. There was no

669
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: gunshot residue on his clothing. He moved fast, so much

670
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: for the he was shooting at me defense. The prosecution

671
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: rests that's it. It took the jury three hours to

672
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: deliver their verdicts. Also not good. Yeah, they found her

673
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: guilty of possession of a deadly weapon and first degree assault.

674
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: She gets sentenced to two to ten years in state

675
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 1: prison for women in Bedford Hills, New York. The judge

676
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: concluded a sentencing by saying, quote, this woman has been

677
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: living by her wits all of her life. She has

678
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: a bad temper and must learn that she can't go

679
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: around shooting in other people. He starts out like it's

680
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 1: a compliment, and then if he gets to like finger Wagon,

681
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: they all stop with your pop. Wait, this is America, man,

682
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: this is what we do. So what were her last

683
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 1: words as she left the courthouse, You can eat, According

684
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: to journalist Sumitra Nadu quote. One news source claimed she

685
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 1: after her infamously sinister laugh and merrily thanked the judge.

686
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: Another wrote that she was escorted out of the room,

687
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: stealing a baleful glance at McVeigh and hissing q louse.

688
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: One article claimed she said, with dramatic a plum quote,

689
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: he'd done me wrong and he'll get his just desserts.

690
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: Yet another wrote that she simply blew a kiss. I

691
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: like that one. I bet she was asking Bumpy, you

692
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: know this man's address, get lucky a home visit? Well,

693
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: so me. Less than a year later, he's flying his

694
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: private plane. This guy du well, he crashed it on

695
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 1: Long Island after running out of fuel and he died.

696
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: Are you happy Zarin? And then in all the papers

697
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: it was like he and his white secretary. So yeah,

698
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: she lived. He he didn't make it. He ran out

699
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: of fuel. Is he Here's the thing, Like he would

700
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,919
Speaker 1: constantly tell his congregation that like, yeah, okay, fine guys,

701
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: the plane's really expensive, but I'm going to keep costs

702
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 1: down by not filling the tank all the way. And also,

703
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: think about it, it it gets me closer to God. Well yeah, so, yeah,

704
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: the savings of me running around with a low tank.

705
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: And then this is what happens right where. I can't

706
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 1: believe he actually did it. I thought he would just

707
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: lie to hey, he was telling the truth. His religious

708
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: group fell apart soon after his death. His mosque was

709
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: converted to a dance hall featuring a one legged dancer

710
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: that is like the greatest end cap to his tail. Yeah.

711
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: I'm over here trying not to make any inappropriate jokes

712
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: about a one legged dancer, but like I do you

713
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: keep thinking about the stripper pole and the one legged dancer.

714
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 1: I'm like, I got a lot to say. Queeney served

715
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: three years and then was released and then the two

716
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 1: toy she she gets out and she really leans into

717
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:55,439
Speaker 1: her advocacy work on political reform. Bumpy, remember Bumpy dude.

718
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: He became the king of Harlem, and it's believes about him.

719
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: He went to live with Queeney and spent his twilight

720
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 1: years writing poetry. I love that right. An article from

721
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: the nineteen forty three New York Amsterdam News. There's more

722
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 1: than one that year, but whatever said that Queeney went

723
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: to the West Indies to visit relatives before going into

724
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 1: seclusion under Bumpy's protection. And Bumpy passed away from a

725
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 1: heart attack in nineteen sixty eight, and then that's what

726
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 1: changed Harlem, to be quite honest, right, one year later,

727
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 1: just shy over seventy third birthday, Queeney passed away. Most

728
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: sources said that she died with a lot of money,

729
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: was really wealthy. Some say that she died broke in

730
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: a Long Island psychiatric facility. I don't want to believe them. Well,

731
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 1: you know, I don't believe she ever had kids, so

732
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: I don't know who would be her heir or what

733
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 1: would become of any fortune that she still had. But

734
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: she worked really hard to stay out of the spotlight

735
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: in her later years, so there's really no telling. There

736
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,879
Speaker 1: was a film called Hoodlum made in nineteen ninety seven,

737
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: starrying Cecily Tyson as Queeney, Laurence Fishburne is Bumpy, and

738
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: Tim Roth as Dutch. Yeah, HBO has a movie about

739
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: Queeney in her life coming up a parent. So I

740
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: think she's in the Dutch Schultz movie briefly that uh

741
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: we're um Dustin Hoffman plays. I think she's maybe bumpy,

742
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,399
Speaker 1: just bumpy. But I think there's well and there's also

743
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 1: there's a graphic novel called Queeney, Godmother of Harlem by

744
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: um Orley Levy and Elizabeth Columba. A graphic novel. Yeah,

745
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: if that just came out, um, just recently. So she's

746
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: in our consciousness, she's in our hearts. Queeney a guiding light,

747
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: Zaron Elizabeth Burnett? What is your what's your ridiculous takeaway?

748
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: My ridiculous takeaway is a green cape in breeches. That's

749
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: all I keep thinking about. Dude, that they're like in

750
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: jodpurs and a turban and like like some kind of

751
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: weird scimitar and he's any spouting nandy Semitic stuff and

752
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,439
Speaker 1: people are like, this guy, get out of here. That's

753
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 1: what like, like, why are we have to be saddled

754
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 1: with him? This is why segregation sucks well, and they stuck,

755
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: We're stuck with him. The question is why with Queeney?

756
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: So you know, one guesses, but Yeah, what is like

757
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: the fact that she's so self possessed and independent. And

758
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 1: then it's when she gets out of the game that

759
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 1: she said with him, he's got bumpy writing poetry. So

760
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: she's got a soft side, she's got an intellectual side,

761
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: she's got a sensitive soul, maybe an artist soul, whatever

762
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:29,720
Speaker 1: you want to call it. She's got she can appreciate

763
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: the finer things in life. And then she's got this

764
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: Jacknape out there acting like a clown on speed. Well,

765
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: and I wonder too if she didn't really have an

766
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: opportunity to connect with someone who was more on the

767
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 1: straight and narrow and like also fighting her civil rights fights, right,

768
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: because they didn't want to be associated marshal type. Right,

769
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 1: somebody who's self possessed, smart could deal with her. But

770
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 1: she's bad for the reputation exactly. So that's the problem.

771
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: And it's like she needs a piano player. Yeah, that's

772
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: the women like her in the past. Yeah, a reliable

773
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 1: piano player, because that guy, he's gonna need you, he's

774
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: a piano player. He can't live on his own, honestly,

775
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: so then he'll be loyal and don't have dud to

776
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: make sure he's not out there like you know, catting

777
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 1: around and then yeah, or getting all strung out. Yeah,

778
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: there is that concern always with the piano players. Yeah,

779
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: with the jazz musician, especially at the jazz cats. But

780
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 1: I still think get yourself a musician, baby, you'd be

781
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: all right. That's it. That's all I have for today.

782
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 1: I love her. You can find us online at Ridiculous

783
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: Crime on both Twitter for the talking and what I

784
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: say Instagram for the gaukin Um. Email us if you

785
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: really want to at Ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com,

786
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: download the iHeart app, leave us something called a talk back.

787
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: It is a thirty second voicemail with no repercussions. You

788
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: like how you always pitched his night Never I know

789
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,760
Speaker 1: you never do. Because I want people to leave their messages.

790
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 1: I would like to do. I just entertaining when we

791
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: get them, but you know, please send them they are

792
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: good and then listen to the next one. Ridiculous Crime

793
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 1: is hosted by Elizabeth Dutton and Zaren Burnett's produced and

794
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: edited by King Dave Houston. Research is by Ruthless Numbers

795
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: runners Marissa Brown and Andrea song Sharp and Tier. The

796
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: theme song is by Thomas Lumpy Lee and Travis Grumpy Dutton.

797
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: Executive producers are Ben I'll Take seven twenty nine for

798
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 1: a nickel bowling and Noel give Me five eighty one

799
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:40,439
Speaker 1: for a dime Brown Quiet Say It one more time?

800
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:45,919
Speaker 1: We Dequeous. Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio four

801
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: more podcasts My heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

802
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.