WEBVTT - Horror Vacui, Part 2 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:05.360 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:15.120 Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.639 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:21.760 we're back with part two of our series on horror 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.760 vakawie or the fear of the void, the fear of emptiness, 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:31.680 also sometimes paraphrased as the statement that nature abhors a vacuum. Uh. 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.319 This is a topic that has many different faces we're 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:36.920 going to touch on in this series. It's uh of course, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:41.800 has manifestations in the world of physics and the physical sciences. Uh, 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.360 and and figures into the history of how we conceptualize 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:50.000 space in the vacuum, but it also has manifestations in 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:53.360 the world of psychology and in the world of art. 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:55.360 In the last episode we focus mainly on art, and 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:59.640 we're going to pick up with talking about art today. Yeah, 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:01.640 and uh, Joe, I don't know if this was the 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:03.560 case with you, but I also found this to be 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:07.040 This is a really fun topic to research, but also 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:09.880 at times a slightly challenging one, do in part to 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:14.760 just how frequently the term horror vakoee is invoked in papers, 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.040 sometimes at the drop of a hat. Yes, this happens 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:22.160 with us sometimes with with like you are searching for uh, 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:25.919 writings about a concept, but instead what you will find 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:29.120 is a lot of writings that use that concept as 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:32.680 a metaphor for what they want to talk about, right right, 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:34.840 So it seems to be the case that if you 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:38.080 want to find something that has just the the the 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:41.760 invocation of the term at least a tangential connection to 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:47.160 horror vakoe, then you can find it. For instance, Uh, 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.200 if you want a paper then invokes some horror vakoee 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:53.440 and Spanish horror icon Paul Nashy, Well you can do it. 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:55.760 I found three of them with just a feel a 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:58.400 good search. Yeah. Um, and you know these are paper 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.200 where there there's not it's not the core um thing 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:05.559 they're going after. But at some point or another they're 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.520 going to use this term to describe a particular artist 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.200 or that artist's work, or perhaps even you know, counter 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:14.639 examples to what a particular artist was doing. So it 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:19.200 seems kind of unavoidable, especially given just how you know, 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:23.519 how common this aspect seems to be to human perception 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.480 and creation. The idea that you know, you have minimalism, 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:31.239 you have maximalism and you know, the various spaces between. Yes, 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:33.760 this is all true, and I at least encountered another 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.760 difficulty with reading about horror akawee, which is that I've 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:43.160 noticed the term is used very differently, uh, sometimes with 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:47.720 the sort of pejorative connotation and sometimes without. And for 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:50.920 an example of this, I was watching a lecture about 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:55.240 horror akerwy in the history of map making by the 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:58.640 historian of cartography chet van Douser, former guests on the show, 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.440 by the way, and I'll talk about uh his writings 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:04.440 on this subject later in this episode. But this lecture 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.919 invoked a definition of horror akawee by a scholar named 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:13.400 Braxton Solderman. And in this case, Solderman, I think would 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:17.680 not use the term horror akawee to apply to in 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.720 general works that are busy or highly decorated. I mean, 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.120 there are tons of things that would be very busy, 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:27.160 highly decorated, you know, densely detailed works of art that 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.080 would not get this term. Instead, he would use it 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:34.960 specifically to refer to the motivation driving cases where you 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:38.800 would judge busy art or busy design to not be 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:42.920 a thoughtful and effective design choice. So the quote goes horror. 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:46.600 Akawee is the fear of empty space that results in 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:51.880 the over marking of visual space, excessive decoration that threatens 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:55.600 to overwhelm what is being decorated, the stuffing of gaps 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:59.840 in say Jura with further representation. Uh So, it's not 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.440 just anything that's busy or crowded, but it's things that 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:07.520 are busy or crowded in a kind of compulsive, uncontrolled way. Okay, okay, 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:11.720 so uh so what Sotoman is saying here then would 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.520 be that's something like, Um, I don't know, the works 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:16.440 of Irving Norman or one of these other artists we 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.360 discussed in Part one who are trying to make some 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.560 comment or create art that in some way invokes a 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:27.400 sense of chaos or disorder. Um, it wouldn't necessarily apply 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:29.760 to what they're doing, because it is a like a 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:33.160 definite choice. But it might apply to the outsider art 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:36.599 or folk card of say Howard Finster. No, I don't 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:39.400 think he would necessarily apply the term to them. I mean, 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:41.480 I don't know what he personally would apply to. I 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.400 think he's just saying that whoever is using this term, 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:47.200 however you're using it, it would be applying to things 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:50.839 that you think are excessive or overmarked, whatever that means 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:54.359 to you. Okay, okay, Yeah, So he's making a distinction 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:58.080 then between uh and and of course vowing to um 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:02.240 individual interpretation. That one view of an artist might be 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:06.239 that they are thoughtfully invoking, say, a sense of chaos 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:10.560 or disorder by filling you know, all the margins with 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:13.360 with the images of such disorder, while on the other hand, 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.320 there might be another artist out there where it is 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:19.880 more of a compulsion. It is more of a situation 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.400 where they have perhaps a lot to say, too much 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:26.760 to say, and are trying to like fit it all in. Yeah. Possibly, 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:29.360 Or of course, it wouldn't just have to be representing, um, 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:32.520 you know, chaos or disorder, could also be representing richness 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.400 or anything, you know, whatever the reason is for the 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:40.159 infilling of detail. Uh, it would be something that is 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:42.839 done on purpose or done for a reason, rather than 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.800 something that has done compulsively, maybe driven by a kind 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:51.040 of anxiety about leaving blank or uniform space. Uh. And 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:53.840 and that latter, since the one driven by horror vakuy 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:57.080 is in this definition, one that detracts from the effect 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.560 of the piece. One that quote threatens to over elm 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:03.920 what is being decorated. So again, I think this author 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:06.200 would probably not use the term to refer to things 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.479 that are busy or crowded as a result of a 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.839 like well considered deliberate choice by the artist or designer. 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:15.880 It would refer to things where the infilling seems haphazard 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:21.159 or unwarranted or ineffective. So, while I am usually quite 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:25.520 partial too busy detail rich artwork, uh, there are examples 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:28.120 I can think of where I can look at an 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.400 artwork or design choice and say, yeah, I think this 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:34.400 just looks like compulsive behavior that seems driven by a 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:38.120 kind of discomfort with blank space. And one example I 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.200 would agree with characterizing this way is cited in the 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:43.719 same lecture by chet van Deuser I mentioned a minute ago. 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:48.560 It's the practice of line filling in medieval manuscripts, and 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:51.720 so maybe this will help illustrate So uh, this is uh, 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:53.640 This this page I want to show you rob is 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:58.359 from a manuscript known as Walter's one thirteen, which is 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:02.640 a late thirteenth century Latin Psalter Assaulter, meaning a book 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:07.240 that contains the biblical Book of Psalms, and it's from 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:11.040 the region of France that was then Flanders. Now you know, 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.680 I love my medieval manuscripts with zany margins. I want 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.560 donkeys playing trumpets. I want armored war rabbits locked in 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:22.520 battle with naked men writing centipede dogs. I want it all. 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.120 But even with that predisposition, I think I I would 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:28.880 be critical of what we see in some of the 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:31.600 pages of Walters one thirteen, such as the one sided 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:35.000 by Van Duzer. And this is where there are illustrations 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:39.800 intruding into the very lines of the text itself. So 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.880 the issue is that when a line of text does 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.040 not stretch all the way to the margin, when it 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:48.240 does not fill out the column, uh, the artists here, 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:50.000 I don't know if it was the copyist or the 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:54.560 rubricator or somebody else, literally fills in the rest of 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:59.440 the line with a rectangular illustration of some kind, so 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.520 it might be a mouse head or just some vines 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:06.440 with red and gold leaves, or big old p hen uh. 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:09.480 I like these types of illustrations, but this does seem 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:11.720 kind of excessive to me, like it would actually make 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:15.560 the text harder to read and detract from its effect, 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.360 and it just kind of makes the page feel cluttered. 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:20.760 And like there's no space to breathe. Kind of going 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:22.960 back to our episodes on the history of the paragraph 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.880 and the the importance of blank space in prose text, 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.800 I would agree with the caveat to our eyes reading 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:33.240 across the centuries. Well, yeah, I'm talking about my opinion. 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:38.360 Yeah yeah, but yes too as a modern viewer looking 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:41.559 at this, Uh, the p hens and the strange dog 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:45.920 creatures are a bit distracting. Um not not that I 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:51.000 can read the actual text anyway. Now right, well, well, 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.960 to connect again with the paragraphs episode, I mean, here 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:58.640 we see very little spacing between the parts of the 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:02.000 text itself. Like the text is also very crammed and 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:06.920 crowded in. Yeah yeah, so, I mean maybe to the 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.440 original creators of this page and the original intended readers 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.320 of this page, like this is opening things up. They're like, hey, 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:16.280 I'm giving you some space. That's what the dog is, 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:18.640 That's what the the bird with the human head and 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:22.679 the dunce cap is about. That is a good bird. 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:25.120 It reminds me a bit um. And this is coming 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:29.679 back to like, you know, cinematic u um examples and 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:34.120 parody of cinematic examples. But there's an episode of Futurama 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:40.199 where Zoidbird's uncle Harold Zoid an old timey uh cinema 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:45.640 director who made like silent holographic pictures. Um, he's directing 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:49.520 a new film and he's at one point he's he says, people, people, please, 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:51.800 just because it's a dramatic scene doesn't mean you can't 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.120 do a little comedy in the background. Um. And it's 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:57.240 you know, it's referring to I guess the the you 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.760 know to To modern viewers, they often busy nature and 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:04.559 the frantic nature of say old silent films. Oh yeah, yeah. 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:09.080 So anyway, on this, like Walter's one thirteen, a person 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:13.160 might feel that this counts as horror akay in the 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:16.800 critical sense, in the sense of overmarking or excessive decoration 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:21.160 that sort of threatens to overwhelm that which is being decorated. 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.080 But to come back to my point about usage, it 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:27.160 seems that while some authors use the term exclusively in 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.760 this sense, like a in some sense a critical statement 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:36.000 or a critical statement about the motivation driving certain design choices, 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.560 it's also sometimes used more generically without a spirit of 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:43.240 criticism that I can detect, and would just be descriptive 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:46.120 like it would refer to any ardor design without a 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.520 lot of blank space, even if the author making the 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:52.720 statement believes that such a design is effective or thoughtful, 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:56.600 or well considered or beautiful. So I guess this can 0:10:56.640 --> 0:11:00.160 create confusion when the term is invoked about whether it's 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.440 being used with a critical connotation or not. Is it 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:06.880 just say it does horror aka we just describe and 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:09.920 artwork that is busy and filled in with detail to 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:14.000 all the edges, or is it a class of motivation 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:18.360 to create certain artworks of this type, specifically artworks that 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.680 are not as good as others? Now? Um, you know, 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:25.760 discussing though the way that sometimes the term is used 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:29.920 to depict, you know, like primitive impulse, or or to 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:32.760 describe a quality of more ancient forms of art versus 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.040 modern forms. Um. I do think it's helpful to look 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.040 at at other examples from other parts of the world 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:40.520 at other times, and I was trying to think of, like, well, 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:42.160 what's a good one that's you know, a little bit 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:44.680 different from from what we've we've looked at in the 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:49.640 first episode, And I kept coming back to uh Tibetan art, 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:55.080 particularly in Tibetan Buddhist art that I imagine when I 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:58.959 even mentioned this, like certain images are coming to mind, 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:01.560 and these image is that come to mind maybe indeed 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:07.000 be like very full, very um complex pieces that indeed 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.600 take up an entire given space. So if we're applying 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:12.920 the term here, it would be in the descriptive sense, 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:15.400 not in the critical sense, because I think you and 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.880 I agree these artworks are amazing, right and and I 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.520 and I, to be honest, I didn't find any sources 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:24.760 out there that we're really invoking this term to describe 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.080 Tibettan art, So I'm not I'm not attempting to jump 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.280 to the defense of it or anything, because the attack 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:33.320 would be I think entirely imaginary here. But um, but 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:35.640 it's interesting, I think to look at at work that 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:38.040 you might see as as you know, very full or 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.760 even very busy and sort of described like why is 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.400 it like that? And uh and and what does it 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:45.559 have to do with the original purpose and context of 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:49.560 a given work? So a little background. Um. A Tibetan 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:52.440 style of art began to develop on the Tibetan Plateau 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.920 during the tenth century, this following a formative era during 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:58.600 which Buddhism took on a form in Tibet most in 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.640 tune with religious needs of the people, their pre existing 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:06.000 shamanistic traditions, and much more. Uh. And this is discussed 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.080 in great detail and an excellent book that I have 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.800 on the shelf here by Robert E. Fisher titled Art 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.760 of Tibet. Now, I'm not going to get super into 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:16.680 the different forms of Tibetan Buddhism or even the full 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:20.079 variety of images, but suffice to say that while not 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:24.240 all examples of Tibetan Buddhist aren't invoke a feeling of maximalism, 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:26.920 some of the most famous examples of sculpture, and especially 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:30.760 monastery wall paintings, do tend to kind of overpower you 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.680 with a sense of cosmic abundance. Yes, and many of 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.000 them seem to me like they are not only overflowing 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:41.320 with detail, but overflowing with uh sort of different levels 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:44.760 of focus. Like there's a lot of different layers of 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.000 detail that you know, things that are kind of like 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:51.240 zoomed out versus zoomed in, if that makes any sense. Yeah, Yeah, 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:53.320 you do feel like there's a sense of zooming in 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.720 and zooming out. Um. Many pieces will have like a 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.040 kind of central focus and you can almost feel like 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:03.280 some sort of of a map. It can almost feel 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:05.480 like some sort of and this is where we get 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:07.480 into some of the actual purpose here, some sort of 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:12.240 educational document that indeed there is information that is being 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.320 relayed here. Uh. And you know, this is one of 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.640 two important factors to keep in mind regarding why these 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:22.720 images are so again cosmically abundant. Uh. First of all, 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:27.960 is Fisher points out esoteric Buddhism, like Vadriyana, Buddhism was 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:31.720 andy as a complex system. One comparison that I've seen 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:34.240 elsewhere is that you might think of these forms of 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.360 Buddhism as a kind of Buddhist super science, a kind 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:42.880 of advanced spiritual technology. Fisher points out that it essentially 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:47.200 was was a means of accelerating the path toward enlightenment, 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:51.440 condensing the work of eons into a single mortal lifespan. 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.160 And at the same time, there was still like a 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.800 sense of urgency to the practice, Fisher stresses, because ultimately 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.040 you're dealing with like the trajectory of the human soul. 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.520 So there was a great deal to be taught, a 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.280 great deal to guide one through, a great deal as 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:10.360 a learner to absorb and it was more than a 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:14.280 written text or even a robust monastic tradition could do 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.880 on its own. Fisher rights of the following quote. The 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.240 need to harness the myriad powers and to organize the 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:25.000 parts of this vast system into a manageable whole required 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:28.240 a large and complex visual system of support and gave 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.640 rise to the ritual instruments and images that have given 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:35.440 the Adriana its distinctive flavor, as well as the huge 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:41.360 array of deities representing the tremendous range of powers and practices. Okay, 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:45.200 so in some sense, the detail rich nature of a 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:49.560 lot of this artwork could be related to the sort 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:53.640 of the vastness and complexity of the belief system underlying 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:58.640 it exactly. Yeah, Yeah, we're dealing with various images and 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:04.000 objects here that are not necessarily merely decoration but also 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:08.400 ritualistic and instructional. So the image may be like full 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:12.480 or abundant or or even uh, you know, considered busy, 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:15.440 because there is a great deal of information to relate 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.480 and support via the image, and I guess you know 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:20.960 you can you can look at various examples and other systems. 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:22.760 Like anytime, there's a lot of information to put in 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:25.880 an image, be it a map, um or you know, 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:27.920 to to sort of bring it into this realm of 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:32.160 the unreal. I'm reminded of the maps, the many wonderful 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:34.520 maps have been created over the years for Dante's Inferno 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.480 and Um and uh and and the other books in 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:43.080 the Divine Comedy, where there is a fantastic physical realm 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.440 that has to be created there, but it's also just 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:49.720 loaded with information and loaded with all sorts of stuff, 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:51.360 and it can be very helpful when you're, say, reading 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.360 The Inferno, but also if you try and fit everything 0:16:54.360 --> 0:17:04.160 into the map, it could conceivably be overwhelming. Thank thank 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:08.400 thank now. Elsewhere in the book, Fisher makes a great 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:10.679 point to about the role place has in all of 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:13.760 this as well. So we're dealing with centuries of tradition 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.159 here and and um and while I don't want to 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.399 devalue the vast size of the Tibetan Plateau because it 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.680 is enormous, or the biodiversity of the region because it 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:28.560 contains numerous ecosystems, but individual works and monasteries are going 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:32.960 to be generally tied to particular locations within it. As 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.879 Fisher points out, the interior of the Tibetan monastery is 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:40.200 elaborate with full wall paintings that quote transform those rooms 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:44.760 into spiritual environments which surround and even overwhelmed the worshiper 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:49.439 with large, expressive displays of the many Buddhist worlds. And 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:52.720 he stresses that this is all in stark contrast to 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:57.080 the world outside the monastery, typically defined by the quote 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:01.920 often bear in wind swept Tibetan landsk um. That's interesting. 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:04.159 So he's saying that in many of these places, if 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.520 you were to go outside the monastery, you'd be greeted 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.080 with an image of the world that is quite beautiful, 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.480 but maybe not busy with detail or busy with lots 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.679 of little things populating it. It It would be often a 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.440 very I don't know what the word is, A kind 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.920 of smooth topography. I mean, I guess not smooth, because 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.160 it would be mountainous, but you know, not a lot 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:27.200 of uh forests and cities and so forth. Right, Yeah, 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.199 Like I included an image here of the Debatten Plateau, 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:33.960 and it's particularly gorgeous view. And at the same time, 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:38.200 I'm sure that one could probably find individual vistas uh 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:41.600 that don't feel is open in the Debat Plateau but 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.320 but I feel like this kind of I feel like 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:46.359 this has a certain logic to it, like the idea that, 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:49.280 first of all, going back to the previous comment, like, 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:51.680 on one hand, you have information encoded in the work, 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:56.160 but also it has to do with this awe inspiring 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.520 transition out of the mundane world and into the inner 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:04.200 spiritual world of the monastery or the temple. So I think, 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:06.919 on one hand, it's it's important to realize that the 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.240 contrast between the empty and the full might be lost 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:11.639 in an analysis of a work, you know, if you're 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:15.359 just viewing it in isolation on a page, um, on 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.040 a screen, or even in a you know, a museum setting. 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:20.560 Um and uh. And I don't know if this is 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:22.439 more of a tangent, but I wonder how we might 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:24.879 think of this in terms of ancient versus modern, or 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:28.040 even in just pre modern in general versus modern creations, 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.679 because if the world outside of a particular experience is, 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:35.200 by one definition or another minimalist, then perhaps it makes 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:39.000 more sense for the work uh itself, the inner work 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:43.120 to present a contrast of maximalism. Likewise, of the world 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:46.440 outside the monastery is by one definition or another maximalist 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.760 or busy, then perhaps we crave the quiet, the simple, 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:54.160 and the minimal within the experience of place or painting 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:58.160 or film or musical composition. That's very interesting, I could 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:00.480 see that. So if yeah, if you may you live 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.600 in a in a busy city center, the sacred space 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:05.640 you retreat to, you would want to have a lot 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:08.520 of empty or uniform space in it to give you 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.639 a sense of of rest maybe, Whereas if you live 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:14.359 in a more pastoral environment, you might want to retreat 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:18.119 to a sacred space that is full of just a busy, 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:21.880 rich detail and complexity. Yeah. And at the same time, though, 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:24.280 I realize that it might still be entirely subjective, because 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:27.680 I can easily imagine, say, you know, an individual living 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:30.399 in the big city and they're going into a a 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:33.560 sacred space or museum space, and like, what is their 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:37.880 relationship to the world on the outside is is it 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:42.399 is it busy and um an abundant or is it 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:44.520 is there an emptiness to it? And therefore they want 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:48.920 something more full on the inside, like the sacred space 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:51.639 should give them an energy that they feel is lacking 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:54.560 in the world outside. Uh, Like I, like I said, 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:56.359 I guess it could go either way. Depending on what 0:20:56.440 --> 0:21:01.000 an individual's view of the mundane world is. Yeah, that 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:05.680 that's a really interesting observation, though, I wonder about that now. Yeah, 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:09.680 like take the various male wolf locations for example, those 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:13.600 are those are certainly kind of maximalist experiences you don't 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.320 go in. I mean, you know, it's it's it's not 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:19.919 just an overabundance of images. There's you know, various artists, 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:23.800 various styles and so forth. Um, it's not just wall 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:27.800 to wall. But generally I have found when I when 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:30.760 I in the one that I visited, I left feeling 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:34.000 like I had experienced a lot. That's interesting because I 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:36.920 when I went I found it kind of RESTful as well. 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:38.679 I think maybe it has to do with the dim 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:41.640 lighting in there or there there are plenty of lights, 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:45.359 but they're not bright white light. Um, and uh in 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:49.840 the kind of soothing sonic atmospheres. I don't know. Yeah, 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:51.679 So anyway, you know, I bring all this up more 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:55.879 or less just raise additional questions and bring up additional examples. 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:58.480 But we'd obviously love to hear from folks out there 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:00.640 who have thoughts on all of this related to their 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:05.840 experiences in museums and sacred spaces, etcetera. Now, I mentioned 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:08.560 earlier that I was going to come back to chet 0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:12.000 VanDuzer Uh, and this relates to fear of the void 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:15.720 in art. I came across some work by previous show 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:18.160 guest chet Van Duser on the role of horror vakawi 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:22.320 in map making. So if you didn't hear that episode 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:24.280 from a few years back, chet vand User is an 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:28.240 American historian of cartography, and he came on the show 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:32.560 several years back to talk about why and how cartographers 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:36.199 of the past would so frequently add sea monsters to 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:42.000 their maps, and one possible explanation for the proliferation of 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:45.800 sirens and slyly marine serpent kings out in the deep 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:49.679 water is horror vakaye on the part of the map maker. 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:53.040 This would be the version that's not just merely descriptive 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:56.520 of something that's filling in details, but a description of 0:22:56.560 --> 0:22:59.280 a motivation on the part of the artist or map maker. 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:03.760 The uh. There's an abhorrence for blankness that goes in 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:06.480 the case of maps, beyond just the creation of monsters, 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:10.560 but to all kinds of extraneous infilling of stuff in 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:13.280 the watery corners of the page. Or in the deep 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:17.000