1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: we're back with part two of our series on horror 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: vakawie or the fear of the void, the fear of emptiness, 6 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: also sometimes paraphrased as the statement that nature abhors a vacuum. Uh. 7 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,319 Speaker 1: This is a topic that has many different faces we're 8 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: going to touch on in this series. It's uh of course, 9 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: has manifestations in the world of physics and the physical sciences. Uh, 10 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: and and figures into the history of how we conceptualize 11 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: space in the vacuum, but it also has manifestations in 12 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: the world of psychology and in the world of art. 13 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: In the last episode we focus mainly on art, and 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: we're going to pick up with talking about art today. Yeah, 15 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: and uh, Joe, I don't know if this was the 16 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: case with you, but I also found this to be 17 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: This is a really fun topic to research, but also 18 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: at times a slightly challenging one, do in part to 19 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: just how frequently the term horror vakoee is invoked in papers, 20 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: sometimes at the drop of a hat. Yes, this happens 21 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: with us sometimes with with like you are searching for uh, 22 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,919 Speaker 1: writings about a concept, but instead what you will find 23 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: is a lot of writings that use that concept as 24 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: a metaphor for what they want to talk about, right right, 25 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: So it seems to be the case that if you 26 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: want to find something that has just the the the 27 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: invocation of the term at least a tangential connection to 28 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: horror vakoe, then you can find it. For instance, Uh, 29 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: if you want a paper then invokes some horror vakoee 30 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: and Spanish horror icon Paul Nashy, Well you can do it. 31 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: I found three of them with just a feel a 32 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: good search. Yeah. Um, and you know these are paper 33 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: where there there's not it's not the core um thing 34 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,559 Speaker 1: they're going after. But at some point or another they're 35 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: going to use this term to describe a particular artist 36 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: or that artist's work, or perhaps even you know, counter 37 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: examples to what a particular artist was doing. So it 38 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: seems kind of unavoidable, especially given just how you know, 39 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,519 Speaker 1: how common this aspect seems to be to human perception 40 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: and creation. The idea that you know, you have minimalism, 41 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:31,239 Speaker 1: you have maximalism and you know, the various spaces between. Yes, 42 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: this is all true, and I at least encountered another 43 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: difficulty with reading about horror akawee, which is that I've 44 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: noticed the term is used very differently, uh, sometimes with 45 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: the sort of pejorative connotation and sometimes without. And for 46 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: an example of this, I was watching a lecture about 47 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: horror akerwy in the history of map making by the 48 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: historian of cartography chet van Douser, former guests on the show, 49 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: by the way, and I'll talk about uh his writings 50 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: on this subject later in this episode. But this lecture 51 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: invoked a definition of horror akawee by a scholar named 52 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: Braxton Solderman. And in this case, Solderman, I think would 53 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: not use the term horror akawee to apply to in 54 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: general works that are busy or highly decorated. I mean, 55 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: there are tons of things that would be very busy, 56 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: highly decorated, you know, densely detailed works of art that 57 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: would not get this term. Instead, he would use it 58 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: specifically to refer to the motivation driving cases where you 59 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: would judge busy art or busy design to not be 60 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: a thoughtful and effective design choice. So the quote goes horror. 61 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: Akawee is the fear of empty space that results in 62 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: the over marking of visual space, excessive decoration that threatens 63 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: to overwhelm what is being decorated, the stuffing of gaps 64 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: in say Jura with further representation. Uh So, it's not 65 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: just anything that's busy or crowded, but it's things that 66 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: are busy or crowded in a kind of compulsive, uncontrolled way. Okay, okay, 67 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: so uh so what Sotoman is saying here then would 68 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: be that's something like, Um, I don't know, the works 69 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: of Irving Norman or one of these other artists we 70 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: discussed in Part one who are trying to make some 71 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: comment or create art that in some way invokes a 72 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: sense of chaos or disorder. Um, it wouldn't necessarily apply 73 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: to what they're doing, because it is a like a 74 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: definite choice. But it might apply to the outsider art 75 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: or folk card of say Howard Finster. No, I don't 76 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: think he would necessarily apply the term to them. I mean, 77 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: I don't know what he personally would apply to. I 78 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: think he's just saying that whoever is using this term, 79 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: however you're using it, it would be applying to things 80 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: that you think are excessive or overmarked, whatever that means 81 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: to you. Okay, okay, Yeah, So he's making a distinction 82 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: then between uh and and of course vowing to um 83 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: individual interpretation. That one view of an artist might be 84 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,239 Speaker 1: that they are thoughtfully invoking, say, a sense of chaos 85 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: or disorder by filling you know, all the margins with 86 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: with the images of such disorder, while on the other hand, 87 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: there might be another artist out there where it is 88 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: more of a compulsion. It is more of a situation 89 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: where they have perhaps a lot to say, too much 90 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: to say, and are trying to like fit it all in. Yeah. Possibly, 91 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: Or of course, it wouldn't just have to be representing, um, 92 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: you know, chaos or disorder, could also be representing richness 93 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: or anything, you know, whatever the reason is for the 94 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: infilling of detail. Uh, it would be something that is 95 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 1: done on purpose or done for a reason, rather than 96 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: something that has done compulsively, maybe driven by a kind 97 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: of anxiety about leaving blank or uniform space. Uh. And 98 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: and that latter, since the one driven by horror vakuy 99 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: is in this definition, one that detracts from the effect 100 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: of the piece. One that quote threatens to over elm 101 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: what is being decorated. So again, I think this author 102 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: would probably not use the term to refer to things 103 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: that are busy or crowded as a result of a 104 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: like well considered deliberate choice by the artist or designer. 105 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: It would refer to things where the infilling seems haphazard 106 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: or unwarranted or ineffective. So, while I am usually quite 107 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: partial too busy detail rich artwork, uh, there are examples 108 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: I can think of where I can look at an 109 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: artwork or design choice and say, yeah, I think this 110 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: just looks like compulsive behavior that seems driven by a 111 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: kind of discomfort with blank space. And one example I 112 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: would agree with characterizing this way is cited in the 113 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: same lecture by chet van Deuser I mentioned a minute ago. 114 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: It's the practice of line filling in medieval manuscripts, and 115 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: so maybe this will help illustrate So uh, this is uh, 116 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: This this page I want to show you rob is 117 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 1: from a manuscript known as Walter's one thirteen, which is 118 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: a late thirteenth century Latin Psalter Assaulter, meaning a book 119 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: that contains the biblical Book of Psalms, and it's from 120 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: the region of France that was then Flanders. Now you know, 121 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: I love my medieval manuscripts with zany margins. I want 122 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: donkeys playing trumpets. I want armored war rabbits locked in 123 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: battle with naked men writing centipede dogs. I want it all. 124 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: But even with that predisposition, I think I I would 125 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: be critical of what we see in some of the 126 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: pages of Walters one thirteen, such as the one sided 127 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: by Van Duzer. And this is where there are illustrations 128 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: intruding into the very lines of the text itself. So 129 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: the issue is that when a line of text does 130 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: not stretch all the way to the margin, when it 131 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: does not fill out the column, uh, the artists here, 132 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if it was the copyist or the 133 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: rubricator or somebody else, literally fills in the rest of 134 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: the line with a rectangular illustration of some kind, so 135 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: it might be a mouse head or just some vines 136 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: with red and gold leaves, or big old p hen uh. 137 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: I like these types of illustrations, but this does seem 138 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: kind of excessive to me, like it would actually make 139 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: the text harder to read and detract from its effect, 140 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: and it just kind of makes the page feel cluttered. 141 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: And like there's no space to breathe. Kind of going 142 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: back to our episodes on the history of the paragraph 143 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: and the the importance of blank space in prose text, 144 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: I would agree with the caveat to our eyes reading 145 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: across the centuries. Well, yeah, I'm talking about my opinion. 146 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but yes too as a modern viewer looking 147 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 1: at this, Uh, the p hens and the strange dog 148 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: creatures are a bit distracting. Um not not that I 149 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: can read the actual text anyway. Now right, well, well, 150 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: to connect again with the paragraphs episode, I mean, here 151 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: we see very little spacing between the parts of the 152 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: text itself. Like the text is also very crammed and 153 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: crowded in. Yeah yeah, so, I mean maybe to the 154 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: original creators of this page and the original intended readers 155 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: of this page, like this is opening things up. They're like, hey, 156 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: I'm giving you some space. That's what the dog is, 157 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: That's what the the bird with the human head and 158 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 1: the dunce cap is about. That is a good bird. 159 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: It reminds me a bit um. And this is coming 160 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: back to like, you know, cinematic u um examples and 161 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: parody of cinematic examples. But there's an episode of Futurama 162 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: where Zoidbird's uncle Harold Zoid an old timey uh cinema 163 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: director who made like silent holographic pictures. Um, he's directing 164 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: a new film and he's at one point he's he says, people, people, please, 165 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: just because it's a dramatic scene doesn't mean you can't 166 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: do a little comedy in the background. Um. And it's 167 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: you know, it's referring to I guess the the you 168 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: know to To modern viewers, they often busy nature and 169 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 1: the frantic nature of say old silent films. Oh yeah, yeah. 170 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: So anyway, on this, like Walter's one thirteen, a person 171 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: might feel that this counts as horror akay in the 172 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: critical sense, in the sense of overmarking or excessive decoration 173 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: that sort of threatens to overwhelm that which is being decorated. 174 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: But to come back to my point about usage, it 175 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: seems that while some authors use the term exclusively in 176 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: this sense, like a in some sense a critical statement 177 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: or a critical statement about the motivation driving certain design choices, 178 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: it's also sometimes used more generically without a spirit of 179 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: criticism that I can detect, and would just be descriptive 180 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: like it would refer to any ardor design without a 181 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: lot of blank space, even if the author making the 182 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: statement believes that such a design is effective or thoughtful, 183 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: or well considered or beautiful. So I guess this can 184 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: create confusion when the term is invoked about whether it's 185 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: being used with a critical connotation or not. Is it 186 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: just say it does horror aka we just describe and 187 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: artwork that is busy and filled in with detail to 188 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: all the edges, or is it a class of motivation 189 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: to create certain artworks of this type, specifically artworks that 190 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: are not as good as others? Now? Um, you know, 191 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: discussing though the way that sometimes the term is used 192 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: to depict, you know, like primitive impulse, or or to 193 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: describe a quality of more ancient forms of art versus 194 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: modern forms. Um. I do think it's helpful to look 195 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: at at other examples from other parts of the world 196 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: at other times, and I was trying to think of, like, well, 197 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: what's a good one that's you know, a little bit 198 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: different from from what we've we've looked at in the 199 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: first episode, And I kept coming back to uh Tibetan art, 200 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: particularly in Tibetan Buddhist art that I imagine when I 201 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 1: even mentioned this, like certain images are coming to mind, 202 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: and these image is that come to mind maybe indeed 203 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: be like very full, very um complex pieces that indeed 204 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: take up an entire given space. So if we're applying 205 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: the term here, it would be in the descriptive sense, 206 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: not in the critical sense, because I think you and 207 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: I agree these artworks are amazing, right and and I 208 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: and I, to be honest, I didn't find any sources 209 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: out there that we're really invoking this term to describe 210 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: Tibettan art, So I'm not I'm not attempting to jump 211 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: to the defense of it or anything, because the attack 212 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: would be I think entirely imaginary here. But um, but 213 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: it's interesting, I think to look at at work that 214 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: you might see as as you know, very full or 215 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: even very busy and sort of described like why is 216 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: it like that? And uh and and what does it 217 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: have to do with the original purpose and context of 218 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: a given work? So a little background. Um. A Tibetan 219 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: style of art began to develop on the Tibetan Plateau 220 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: during the tenth century, this following a formative era during 221 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: which Buddhism took on a form in Tibet most in 222 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: tune with religious needs of the people, their pre existing 223 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: shamanistic traditions, and much more. Uh. And this is discussed 224 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: in great detail and an excellent book that I have 225 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: on the shelf here by Robert E. Fisher titled Art 226 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: of Tibet. Now, I'm not going to get super into 227 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 1: the different forms of Tibetan Buddhism or even the full 228 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 1: variety of images, but suffice to say that while not 229 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: all examples of Tibetan Buddhist aren't invoke a feeling of maximalism, 230 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: some of the most famous examples of sculpture, and especially 231 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: monastery wall paintings, do tend to kind of overpower you 232 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: with a sense of cosmic abundance. Yes, and many of 233 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: them seem to me like they are not only overflowing 234 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: with detail, but overflowing with uh sort of different levels 235 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: of focus. Like there's a lot of different layers of 236 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: detail that you know, things that are kind of like 237 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: zoomed out versus zoomed in, if that makes any sense. Yeah, Yeah, 238 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: you do feel like there's a sense of zooming in 239 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: and zooming out. Um. Many pieces will have like a 240 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 1: kind of central focus and you can almost feel like 241 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: some sort of of a map. It can almost feel 242 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: like some sort of and this is where we get 243 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: into some of the actual purpose here, some sort of 244 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: educational document that indeed there is information that is being 245 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: relayed here. Uh. And you know, this is one of 246 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: two important factors to keep in mind regarding why these 247 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: images are so again cosmically abundant. Uh. First of all, 248 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: is Fisher points out esoteric Buddhism, like Vadriyana, Buddhism was 249 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: andy as a complex system. One comparison that I've seen 250 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: elsewhere is that you might think of these forms of 251 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: Buddhism as a kind of Buddhist super science, a kind 252 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: of advanced spiritual technology. Fisher points out that it essentially 253 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: was was a means of accelerating the path toward enlightenment, 254 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: condensing the work of eons into a single mortal lifespan. 255 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: And at the same time, there was still like a 256 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: sense of urgency to the practice, Fisher stresses, because ultimately 257 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: you're dealing with like the trajectory of the human soul. 258 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: So there was a great deal to be taught, a 259 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: great deal to guide one through, a great deal as 260 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: a learner to absorb and it was more than a 261 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: written text or even a robust monastic tradition could do 262 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: on its own. Fisher rights of the following quote. The 263 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: need to harness the myriad powers and to organize the 264 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: parts of this vast system into a manageable whole required 265 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: a large and complex visual system of support and gave 266 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: rise to the ritual instruments and images that have given 267 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: the Adriana its distinctive flavor, as well as the huge 268 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: array of deities representing the tremendous range of powers and practices. Okay, 269 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: so in some sense, the detail rich nature of a 270 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: lot of this artwork could be related to the sort 271 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: of the vastness and complexity of the belief system underlying 272 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: it exactly. Yeah, Yeah, we're dealing with various images and 273 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: objects here that are not necessarily merely decoration but also 274 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: ritualistic and instructional. So the image may be like full 275 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: or abundant or or even uh, you know, considered busy, 276 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: because there is a great deal of information to relate 277 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: and support via the image, and I guess you know 278 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: you can you can look at various examples and other systems. 279 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: Like anytime, there's a lot of information to put in 280 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: an image, be it a map, um or you know, 281 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: to to sort of bring it into this realm of 282 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: the unreal. I'm reminded of the maps, the many wonderful 283 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: maps have been created over the years for Dante's Inferno 284 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: and Um and uh and and the other books in 285 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: the Divine Comedy, where there is a fantastic physical realm 286 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: that has to be created there, but it's also just 287 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: loaded with information and loaded with all sorts of stuff, 288 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: and it can be very helpful when you're, say, reading 289 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: The Inferno, but also if you try and fit everything 290 00:16:54,360 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 1: into the map, it could conceivably be overwhelming. Thank thank 291 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: thank now. Elsewhere in the book, Fisher makes a great 292 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 1: point to about the role place has in all of 293 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: this as well. So we're dealing with centuries of tradition 294 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 1: here and and um and while I don't want to 295 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: devalue the vast size of the Tibetan Plateau because it 296 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: is enormous, or the biodiversity of the region because it 297 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: contains numerous ecosystems, but individual works and monasteries are going 298 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: to be generally tied to particular locations within it. As 299 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: Fisher points out, the interior of the Tibetan monastery is 300 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: elaborate with full wall paintings that quote transform those rooms 301 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: into spiritual environments which surround and even overwhelmed the worshiper 302 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: with large, expressive displays of the many Buddhist worlds. And 303 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: he stresses that this is all in stark contrast to 304 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: the world outside the monastery, typically defined by the quote 305 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: often bear in wind swept Tibetan landsk um. That's interesting. 306 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: So he's saying that in many of these places, if 307 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: you were to go outside the monastery, you'd be greeted 308 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: with an image of the world that is quite beautiful, 309 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: but maybe not busy with detail or busy with lots 310 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: of little things populating it. It It would be often a 311 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: very I don't know what the word is, A kind 312 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: of smooth topography. I mean, I guess not smooth, because 313 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: it would be mountainous, but you know, not a lot 314 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: of uh forests and cities and so forth. Right, Yeah, 315 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 1: Like I included an image here of the Debatten Plateau, 316 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: and it's particularly gorgeous view. And at the same time, 317 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: I'm sure that one could probably find individual vistas uh 318 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: that don't feel is open in the Debat Plateau but 319 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: but I feel like this kind of I feel like 320 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: this has a certain logic to it, like the idea that, 321 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: first of all, going back to the previous comment, like, 322 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: on one hand, you have information encoded in the work, 323 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 1: but also it has to do with this awe inspiring 324 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: transition out of the mundane world and into the inner 325 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: spiritual world of the monastery or the temple. So I think, 326 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 1: on one hand, it's it's important to realize that the 327 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: contrast between the empty and the full might be lost 328 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: in an analysis of a work, you know, if you're 329 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: just viewing it in isolation on a page, um, on 330 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: a screen, or even in a you know, a museum setting. 331 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: Um and uh. And I don't know if this is 332 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: more of a tangent, but I wonder how we might 333 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: think of this in terms of ancient versus modern, or 334 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: even in just pre modern in general versus modern creations, 335 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 1: because if the world outside of a particular experience is, 336 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: by one definition or another minimalist, then perhaps it makes 337 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: more sense for the work uh itself, the inner work 338 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: to present a contrast of maximalism. Likewise, of the world 339 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: outside the monastery is by one definition or another maximalist 340 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: or busy, then perhaps we crave the quiet, the simple, 341 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: and the minimal within the experience of place or painting 342 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: or film or musical composition. That's very interesting, I could 343 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: see that. So if yeah, if you may you live 344 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: in a in a busy city center, the sacred space 345 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 1: you retreat to, you would want to have a lot 346 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: of empty or uniform space in it to give you 347 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 1: a sense of of rest maybe, Whereas if you live 348 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: in a more pastoral environment, you might want to retreat 349 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: to a sacred space that is full of just a busy, 350 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 1: rich detail and complexity. Yeah. And at the same time, though, 351 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: I realize that it might still be entirely subjective, because 352 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: I can easily imagine, say, you know, an individual living 353 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: in the big city and they're going into a a 354 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: sacred space or museum space, and like, what is their 355 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 1: relationship to the world on the outside is is it 356 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 1: is it busy and um an abundant or is it 357 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: is there an emptiness to it? And therefore they want 358 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: something more full on the inside, like the sacred space 359 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 1: should give them an energy that they feel is lacking 360 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: in the world outside. Uh, Like I, like I said, 361 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: I guess it could go either way. Depending on what 362 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: an individual's view of the mundane world is. Yeah, that 363 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: that's a really interesting observation, though, I wonder about that now. Yeah, 364 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: like take the various male wolf locations for example, those 365 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: are those are certainly kind of maximalist experiences you don't 366 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: go in. I mean, you know, it's it's it's not 367 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 1: just an overabundance of images. There's you know, various artists, 368 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: various styles and so forth. Um, it's not just wall 369 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: to wall. But generally I have found when I when 370 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: I in the one that I visited, I left feeling 371 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: like I had experienced a lot. That's interesting because I 372 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: when I went I found it kind of RESTful as well. 373 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: I think maybe it has to do with the dim 374 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 1: lighting in there or there there are plenty of lights, 375 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: but they're not bright white light. Um, and uh in 376 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: the kind of soothing sonic atmospheres. I don't know. Yeah, 377 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: So anyway, you know, I bring all this up more 378 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: or less just raise additional questions and bring up additional examples. 379 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: But we'd obviously love to hear from folks out there 380 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: who have thoughts on all of this related to their 381 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: experiences in museums and sacred spaces, etcetera. Now, I mentioned 382 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: earlier that I was going to come back to chet 383 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: VanDuzer Uh, and this relates to fear of the void 384 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: in art. I came across some work by previous show 385 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 1: guest chet Van Duser on the role of horror vakawi 386 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: in map making. So if you didn't hear that episode 387 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: from a few years back, chet vand User is an 388 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: American historian of cartography, and he came on the show 389 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: several years back to talk about why and how cartographers 390 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 1: of the past would so frequently add sea monsters to 391 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: their maps, and one possible explanation for the proliferation of 392 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: sirens and slyly marine serpent kings out in the deep 393 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: water is horror vakaye on the part of the map maker. 394 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: This would be the version that's not just merely descriptive 395 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: of something that's filling in details, but a description of 396 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: a motivation on the part of the artist or map maker. 397 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: The uh. There's an abhorrence for blankness that goes in 398 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: the case of maps, beyond just the creation of monsters, 399 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: but to all kinds of extraneous infilling of stuff in 400 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: the watery corners of the page. Or in the deep 401 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: middles of continents on the page, and so I was 402 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: looking at a digital curation of examples on the Stanford 403 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 1: Libraries website. This is for the Barry Lawrence Rudermann Conference 404 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: on Cartography, and there are some explanatory materials by Chet 405 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: van Douser. So he writes that despite the fact that 406 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: some previous scholars had had cast doubt on whether horror 407 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: akawee was ever a major influence on map makers, he 408 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: argues that whether you frame it as a positive desire 409 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: for excess decoration or a negative aversion to blank space, 410 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: it seems pretty clear that horror akawee of one kind 411 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 1: or another was an important pressure in the design of 412 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: European maps from the sixteenth to the early eighteenth century, 413 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 1: at least four some cartographers. Because this was not universal, 414 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 1: he also shows many examples of maps that were perfectly 415 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: content to leave vast areas blank, often the the interiors 416 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 1: of continental spaces unknown to the map maker, or vast 417 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: ocean spaces. Now, rob I thought the first example vendors 418 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: are selects that we would look at. Here is the 419 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: typus aurarum mary timarum gin a a longren and this 420 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: is a map created by the Dutch cartographer Young Hoygan 421 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: von lynn Schoten, who lived fifteen sixty three to sixteen eleven. 422 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: I believe this map is from fifte and it depicts 423 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: the South Atlantic and the western coast of Africa. Now 424 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 1: the ocean takes up it looks like at least three 425 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: quarters of the map. But the ocean here is absolutely 426 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: overflowing with stuff, to the point that it's kind of 427 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: funny to look at. There are inset drawings of the 428 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 1: mountains on St. Helena and a inshin island. There is 429 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: a compass or multiple compasses. There is a drawing of 430 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 1: three ships being visited by a sea monster. I can't 431 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,360 Speaker 1: tell if the c monster is attacking the ships or 432 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: just saying hello, Rob. Maybe you can render a judgment 433 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: on that illustration in a moment. But there is also 434 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 1: lots of absurdly florid lettering on the names of places. 435 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: Will you just look at this oceanus? Uh what? I 436 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: can't even read the word it's so there's so much 437 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: swirling on the letters. Get get, let's let the podcasts 438 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, there's a lot going on here. And 439 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: the I mean, it almost looks like you've you've gotten 440 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: you've got pop ups occurring on the map. You need 441 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: to close out so you can see the rest of 442 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: the ocean here. That's very yeah, yeah, you want to 443 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: click the excess. Uh, but let's get a good look 444 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: at this sea monster. Now, it looks kind of like 445 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,239 Speaker 1: it's a giant green fish with red fins and the 446 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: head of I don't know, what would you call that, 447 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: kind of like a pig calf head. Yeah, yeah, it's 448 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: very mammalion. But it's got the angry eyes it's got 449 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: it's got attack eyes. And is it attacking the ships 450 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,239 Speaker 1: or is it just kind of flopping around for them 451 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: to look at? Not quite clear. Yeah, I don't know. 452 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: It looks it looks, I don't looks a little sweet 453 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: to me, like it's just kind of mine in its 454 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: own business. But maybe no, no, wait, I'm looking at 455 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: It depends how you Okay, it depends how you look 456 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,479 Speaker 1: at it. At first, when I looked at this this 457 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: particular monster, I thought its head was sort of to 458 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 1: the side, And now I see it as it was intended. Yes, 459 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 1: it does look angry and looks more like a pig. 460 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: Whereas the way I was seeing it at first it 461 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: looked more like an otter. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I 462 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: saw that you were looking at the more zoomed out 463 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 1: image that does look more otter like. Yeah, but when 464 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: you you see a little closer, you can tell, yeah, 465 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: it has this kind of still mammalion but angry and 466 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: perhaps threatening the ships. But okay, this first example, there 467 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: is just so much illustration in the ocean here, and 468 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: just a lot inset text. The boxes boxes of text. 469 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: I think they're called cartouches, maybe, just like elaborately decorated 470 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: boxes with like those baroque museum frames illustrated around them 471 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 1: that have you know, they say something in them. Uh. Now, 472 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: let's look at another map. This is one that of 473 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: and user selects that is called a New Plane and 474 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: Exact Map of America by Robert Walton who lived sixteen 475 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: eighteen to sixty eight. I think this map is from 476 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: sixteen sixty and uh, let me flag a little lall 477 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: here at the word plane in its title, because again, 478 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: it's just it's so much stuff. The oceans are filled 479 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 1: with ships, sea monsters, random blocks of text. The border 480 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: of the map is stuffed with illustrations of landmarks and 481 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: explorers and what the map maker believed were the representations 482 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: of clothing of various native people's. There is even sort 483 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: of a guess at the coast of Antarctica, though I 484 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: want to say Antarctica was not discovered until the nineteenth century. 485 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: This is just a random line of coasts south of 486 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: Cape Horn that has labeled unknown lands. So it's just 487 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 1: sort of a guess there's probably some land down here. Wow. 488 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: This Yeah, this map is a lot to take in. UM. 489 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that it's particularly pleasing to the eye. 490 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: It has the feeling of a publication like UM in 491 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: the sense that they said, well, we've got some extra 492 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: space on here, let's get some more content on this map. 493 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: You know what it looks. It kind of looks like 494 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: do you ever have those highly informational place mats when 495 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: you were a kid? Yep, yep, you're gonna eat your 496 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: spaghetti on this new plane exact map of America. Yeah, 497 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: this would work great as a place matter. Yeah. Yes. 498 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: But Van dews Are, writing of Walton's map, says quote, 499 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: it is tempting to think that the maps busy appearance 500 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: attracted and held the is of his customers and thus 501 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: helped increase sales. So that's an interesting consideration. It's possible 502 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: that a desire to sell maps could have driven some 503 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: horror vakay in cartographers, because maybe a map seems more 504 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: valuable if it is filled with lots of illustrations and text. 505 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: Maybe it seems less valuable if the places where you 506 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: you know, you don't really have any geographical information to 507 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: add or just blank Yeah. I can see. It's kind 508 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: of like with the illuminated manuscripts. So we're discussing earlier. 509 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: I mean, if you were paying for one of these 510 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: or commissioning, when you might say, hey, I thought this 511 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: thing was going to be illuminated. Where is the illumination 512 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: I paid for? Um? Yeah, and there's a lot of 513 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: content added here. And yet at the same time, the 514 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: north part of America has a fair amount of white space, 515 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: trap white space in it here. Oh it does. Yeah, 516 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: that that's the the interior continent. In fact, some of 517 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: the other examples elsewhere that VanDuzer sites to show cases 518 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: where map makers were clearly not afraid to leave blank space. 519 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: A lot of that blank spaces, like in the center 520 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: of the Asian continent, so they'll represent you know, Europe 521 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: and Africa, and like the southern coast of the Asian mainland, 522 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: and then like all up inside there, it's just a 523 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: vast blankness because they just didn't know what was there. Yeah, 524 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: it looked like in this particular map they added some 525 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: text under the north part of America, but they just 526 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: didn't have even enough to fill. I have a few 527 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: pictures of animals, but ultimately there's a clearly a lot 528 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: of a lot that's unknown at the time of this 529 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: naps making. Thankank, Thank alright, I want to look at 530 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: one more of Van Duzer's examples. The next one is 531 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: a map by Henri Abraham Chatelan called I'm not sure 532 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: how to say this French, but I think it's like 533 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: cart trey cure use de la mare de Sud. This 534 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: is Amsterdam, seventeen nineteen. So this is more like an 535 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: attempt to This is not quite a map of the 536 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: entire world, but it is a map of a lot 537 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: of the world. So it has North America, South America, 538 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: half of Africa, half of Europe, and then the eastern 539 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: part of the Asian continent. And then it's got a 540 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: lot of ocean in it. So it's got the Pacific Ocean, 541 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: the Atlantic ocean, and once again there's all kinds of 542 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: stuff sort of crowding in from the edges. In fact, Rob, 543 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: I would almost say this adheres to the exact inverse 544 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: of your rule about about blank space in like type 545 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: setting newspapers, where you know, white space was okay if 546 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: it's sort of connected to the oceans at the outer 547 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: edge of the page. You just don't want trapped white 548 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: space here. All of the illustrations and boxes and Cartouchian 549 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: seemed to be just pouring in from the edges of 550 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: the map, if that makes sense. Yeah, Yeah, it's it's 551 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: it's it's very interesting to look at. And yeah, and 552 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: I'm sure lot of this has to do with the 553 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: clearly visible trade routes that are marked, like you don't 554 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: want to throw your copious amounts of illustrations on top 555 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,239 Speaker 1: of that better, but they work well to fill in 556 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,959 Speaker 1: these areas where ships are not navigating between the continents. Yeah, 557 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: and I really like Vanduzer's observation about this map quote 558 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: the great profusion of inset maps and scenes along the 559 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: northern and southern edges of Andrichdalan seventeen nineteen very curious 560 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: map of the Pacific show the cartographer's strong desire to 561 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: avoid empty space, and more specifically, to conceal his ignorance 562 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: of what lay in the extreme northern and southern reaches 563 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: of the world. The south is essentially tiled over with 564 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: inset maps that include ethnographic scenes in the north. Note 565 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: that he conceals his ignorance of northwestern North America with 566 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: a series of portraits of explorers. That's a very clever trick, 567 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: and honestly, I don't know if I would have noticed 568 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: it if induser hadn't pointed out. Sometimes an abundance of 569 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: extraneous detail can be used to distract the audience from 570 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: the absence of significant or useful detail. In other words, 571 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: business can be used to hide emptiness. So on a map, 572 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: this would mean that you might be less inclined to, 573 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, pipe up and say, hey, wait a minute, 574 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: what islands can be found in this region of the 575 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: Pacific Ocean, Or wait a minute, what is the shape 576 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: of the northwest coast of North America. You might not 577 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: notice to ask that question because the map doesn't just 578 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: sort of like go blank in these places. Instead, it 579 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: is plastered with like Magellan and Vespucci heads and what 580 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: appeared to be somewhat inaccurate drawings of Mesoamerican pyramids with 581 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: human sacrifices happening all around them. So it's just adding 582 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: in these illustrations in places where the author or or 583 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: the map maker uh doesn't actually know what they should 584 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: depict in an informational sense in the map itself. Yes, 585 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: this close up that you included for me of the 586 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: human sacrifice scene is quite ridiculous and monstrous. And I 587 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: guess thee an individual with a face on his stomach 588 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: in the background as well. Is that what it is? Yeah, 589 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: that's confusing. I don't know what that means. Yeah, I 590 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: mean when he shows up? You know your illustration is 591 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: is is well off the mark when it comes to 592 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: realistic depiction of cultural practices. Is this going to help 593 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: me navigate the Pacific? I'm not sure, but this will 594 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: come back in a minute. Maybe that's not the point 595 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: of a map like this, um though, I think it's 596 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,399 Speaker 1: important to to dwell in this for a second, because, 597 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 1: of course, this technique of hiding the lack of significant 598 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: or relevant detail by filling the void with irrelevant or 599 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: extraneous detail is not just used in maps. This is 600 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: actually something I notice in verbal rhetoric all the time. 601 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: It is like a common trick of persuasion in an argumentation. Uh. 602 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: For example, you can see see it in courtrooms if 603 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,240 Speaker 1: you don't have very good evidence to cite in support 604 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 1: of your case. Instead, you just say a lot of stuff. 605 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: You just try to rapidly lay out a bunch of 606 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: facts or claims that sound vaguely on topic. And if 607 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: you say enough stuff fast enough, it could be hard 608 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: for the jury or the audience to stop and analyze 609 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,879 Speaker 1: each thing you said and think, wait a minute, does 610 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: this actually prove what you're trying to prove? Is? Does 611 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: this lead to your conclusion? Instead, like you use a 612 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: blizzard of statements to create the impression that you have 613 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,359 Speaker 1: made an argument, you hide the core vacuity of your 614 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 1: case behind a hieronymous bosh painting of talk. Mm hmm. 615 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: Perhaps it's kind of like with the map versus the painting. 616 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: It's more detectable when there's like a definite purpose or 617 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: intended purpose to the answer, because it's like one thing 618 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,839 Speaker 1: to come up to someone and say, hey, what is art? 619 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: And then you might get a really rambling response, but 620 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: you kind of should right, But if it's more like, hey, um, 621 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: if you come to your boss and be like, what 622 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 1: are my duties for the coming month or how is 623 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: my performance over the last quarter, if there are a 624 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 1: lot of add ons and pop ups in that particular answer, 625 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 1: then yeah, it feels like you didn't really get a 626 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 1: clear answer to the question. Yes. Yes, In that case, 627 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: the boss would be papering over an actual problem in 628 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:31,240 Speaker 1: the workplace with a bunch of extraneous detail, essentially painting 629 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: like Magellan heads and Christopher Columbus heads over the part 630 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: of the map where you should be getting detail about 631 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: what you're supposed to do. Yeah, But anyway to come 632 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: back to maps specifically, uh Van Duser argues that eventually 633 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 1: the cartography of horror vakuwi fell out of fashion by 634 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 1: the late seventeenth and early eighteenth century. You start to 635 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: see a decline in this impulse to fill every corner 636 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: of the map with stuff, and that seems to coincide 637 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 1: with a decline in decoration generally and an increasing trend 638 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: of seeing maps purely as utilitarian scientific instruments, where it 639 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: would just be you know, you just want the information necessary. 640 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: These are the navigation lines you would use. These are 641 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: the coastlines. So I look at all this and I 642 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,959 Speaker 1: sort of interpret it to mean that, you know, in 643 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 1: in European maps of centuries prior, if you had a 644 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 1: map of the coast of South America or something, it's 645 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: maybe more likely that this would be a kind of decorative, educational, 646 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,359 Speaker 1: or status item to maybe to stimulate the imagination, or 647 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: maybe in a more profane sense, to show off your 648 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: wealth and worldliness or something like that. But by the 649 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 1: early eighteenth century, c maps were increasingly viewed simply as 650 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: tools for navigation, in which case you might not want 651 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: a lot of extra decoration all over the place, kind 652 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: of like you wouldn't want the marked face of a 653 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: tape measure to be covered in all kinds of elaborate 654 00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: illustrations and words. Yeah, yeah, I think it's a great 655 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,280 Speaker 1: It reminds me a bit of time pieces, particularly wrist watches, 656 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: where you know you'll you'll see plenty of examples of 657 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: very functional time pieces that are all about giving you 658 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,720 Speaker 1: the exact time, and in other cases the time piece 659 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: might be a little more stylistic, sometimes so stylistic that 660 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,959 Speaker 1: it interferes with your ability to accurately read what time 661 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: it is. Yes, and It's not to say that either 662 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: approach is wrong. They just have different slightly different intentions 663 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: and a different focus on the actual information that is 664 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: being presented. So this makes me think that when there 665 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 1: is a case of horror vakawy as a motivation, just 666 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: like a desire to fill in blank spaces with stuff, 667 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: you know, there can actually be a lot of uh, 668 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 1: sort of sub motivations to that motivation. It might be 669 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: because you are trying to make the thing you're creating 670 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: appear more valuable. Maybe you're trying to attract the eye 671 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 1: of a buyer. It might be because you literally just 672 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: want to contain more information. It might be because you 673 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: want to disguise a lack of information of a significant sort. 674 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: Or maybe it's just because you enjoy being artistically expressive 675 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,359 Speaker 1: and you want to fill lots of things in with 676 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: you know, just kind of exciting detail to stimulate the imagination, 677 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 1: all of which could essentially manifest as the same thing. Yeah, 678 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,720 Speaker 1: but how about you personally, Joe, do you think maps 679 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 1: today should have more monsters on them? I think Google 680 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: Maps specifically should have more monsters on it, uh, Like, 681 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,479 Speaker 1: you know, because that could be that could be filled 682 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: in dynamically, right, you know the monsters are roaming around. 683 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: That would add an interesting level of puzzle and obstacles 684 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,840 Speaker 1: here your daily boring navigation tasks. I gotta get to 685 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: so and so's house or the post office or whatever, 686 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,839 Speaker 1: but there is a Leviathan in the way, and uh, 687 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: maybe I gotta take a new route. Yeah, I mean, 688 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: just speaking of routes. Yeah, we have we we use 689 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 1: these various GPS powered mapping devices when we drive around, 690 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: and I often find that if I stop at a 691 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: light or a traffic sign. Uh, that's when the pop 692 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 1: ups come for make pop ups for like sub sandwich 693 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: shops and so forth. Uh. Maybe if I could pay 694 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,319 Speaker 1: just a little bit each month instead of getting the 695 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: sub the submarine sandwich pop up, I could just get 696 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: a random monster from uh from from the history of maps, 697 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: some sort of strange, pig faced, shrek eared monstrosity rising 698 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: up out of the highway. Yeah. Why go to the 699 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 1: sub shop when you could go be devoured by a cockatrice? Yeah, 700 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: or at least giving the ability to report it. If 701 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: enough people are reporting the thing, then there must be 702 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,720 Speaker 1: something going on. Okay, does that do it for today? 703 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: For Part two, I believe. So yeah, I think we've 704 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: we've we've filled this one into the margins here, but 705 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: we'll be back with a third episode on the topic, 706 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: so hey, check back with us. Then. Just a reminder 707 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: that core episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind air 708 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: and Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed on Tuesdays 709 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 1: and Thursdays. On Monday's we do listener mail, on Wednesday's 710 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: we do a short form amster fact or artifact episode, 711 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: and on Friday's we set aside most serious concerns to 712 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. 713 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: Huge thanks to our audio producer J J. Pauseway. If 714 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with 715 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a 716 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you 717 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,879 Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 718 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production 719 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,720 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, 720 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're 721 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows.