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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give

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Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 2: we're in session with Kate, who wants to break free

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Speaker 2: from her people pleasing tendencies.

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Speaker 3: I felt even guiltier for leaving.

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Speaker 4: I was in this impossible position of trying to split

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Speaker 4: up my time between my brother and his family and

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Speaker 4: my mom, and neither side.

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Speaker 3: Would be happy with the amount of time spent with them.

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Speaker 1: First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia

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Speaker 1: use it in part orn full, and we may edit

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Speaker 1: it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear,

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Speaker 1: all names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

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Speaker 1: Hey Laurie, Hey guy.

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Speaker 2: So what do we have in our mailbox today?

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Speaker 1: So today we have a letter from a woman who

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Speaker 1: is struggling with people pleasing and it goes like this,

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Speaker 1: Dear therapists, I'm a first generation immigrant and realize that

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Speaker 1: our family situation might not be uncommon for other immigrant families.

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Speaker 1: My father was always absent due to work and prioritizing

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Speaker 1: traveling in his free time. He also cheated on my

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Speaker 1: mom multiple times and has other children. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how many. My mother relied on me for emotional support,

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Speaker 1: as she was always lonely and depressed. I spent most

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Speaker 1: of my teenage years consoling her instead of going out

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Speaker 1: with my friends. My brother is ten years older than me,

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Speaker 1: and it felt like he was more of a fought

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Speaker 1: a brother. He was always very dominant, angry, and loud.

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Speaker 1: It was very easy to upset him, and he often

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Speaker 1: gave me tasks like going to the store or cleaning

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Speaker 1: his room. But somehow I always seem to do something incorrectly.

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Speaker 1: I was scared of him, and I think so was

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Speaker 1: my mom. My response to all this was to flee

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Speaker 1: after graduating and to move to another city and later

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Speaker 1: country to study. It gave me a legitimate reason not

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Speaker 1: to be there and to enjoy my life a little.

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Speaker 1: But whenever I would come home to visit my brother

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Speaker 1: and mother always made me feel guilty for not spending

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Speaker 1: enough time with them. My brother has three children, and

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Speaker 1: it was important to him that I spent time with

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Speaker 1: my nieces and nephews and helped out my sister in

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Speaker 1: law cleaning the house looking after the kids. I felt

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Speaker 1: like a maid at my brother's place and a counselor

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Speaker 1: at my mom's. Lately, it's been bugging me that my

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Speaker 1: mom never asks how I am. When she calls. She

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Speaker 1: immediately starts to talk about her life and problems. I

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Speaker 1: also have a very difficult time creating boundaries with my

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Speaker 1: brother because he so easily gets angry when I even

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Speaker 1: attempt to say no, I need to break free from

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Speaker 1: the people. Please her tendencies that keep me feeling in prisoned.

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Speaker 1: Please help Kate.

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Speaker 2: I'm really glad Kate wrote to us, and I'm really

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Speaker 2: glad she recognizes that she's a people pleaser because it

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Speaker 2: sounds like this light thing, but it can be damaging

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Speaker 2: to every aspect of a person's life. It can really

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Speaker 2: dictate their relationships, their self esteem, and how they deal

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Speaker 2: with things. So it's such a broad problem.

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Speaker 1: So many people deal with this. I get so many

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Speaker 1: messages on social media and we see it both in

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Speaker 1: our therapy offices. So many people were told that somebody

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Speaker 1: else's needs were more important than their needs, and so

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Speaker 1: there's always this conflict going on inside of them. Do

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Speaker 1: I do what I need or do I do what

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Speaker 1: the other person needs? And if I don't do what

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Speaker 1: the other person needs, there's this incredible guilt. So let's

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Speaker 1: go talk to her and find out more about what's

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Speaker 1: going on. You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back after a short break.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is

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Speaker 2: Deo Therapist. Hi Kate, Hi, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's our pleasure. We wanted to start by hearing

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Speaker 1: a little bit more about your current situation. Tell us

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Speaker 1: a little bit about how old you are, how people

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Speaker 1: pleasing might come into your life. Now. What are you

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Speaker 1: doing in your life professionally and socially.

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Speaker 3: Sure, I'm thirty one years old. I currently live in Lebanon.

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Speaker 4: I'm an aid worker, so for the past couple of years,

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Speaker 4: I've deployed to different emergencies around the world. I was

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Speaker 4: born and raised in Austria, but my parents are originally

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Speaker 4: from Bangladesh. I have an older brother, it's ten years

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Speaker 4: older than me, and I guess I left home when

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Speaker 4: I was around nineteen years old to study humanitarian eight

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Speaker 4: and then I've started working since I was around twenty three.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit more about how

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Speaker 1: some of these tendencies might play out in your friendships

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Speaker 1: or your professional relationships, your romantic relationships.

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Speaker 3: Sure. Yeah, married to a great guy. We met actually

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Speaker 3: at work, so he's in the same field as I am,

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Speaker 3: and I also have a bunch of great friends.

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Speaker 4: I guess my people pleasing tendencies I see them really

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Speaker 4: more in my family. I feel like I'm much more

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Speaker 4: myself and who I want to be with my friends.

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Speaker 4: I guess it always felt like it felt liberating going

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Speaker 4: abroad making friends that are more like me, So I

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Speaker 4: think I don't have those people pleasing tendencies so much

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Speaker 4: with my friends and with my husband, but really more

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Speaker 4: with my family.

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Speaker 3: But I might be wrong, Maybe I just don't see it.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're in a profession, both you and your husband,

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Speaker 2: of helping other people. It's humanitarian he You've found a

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Speaker 2: profession in which you get to do some of the

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Speaker 2: things that come naturally to you, like helping other people's

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Speaker 2: paying attention to other people's needs. And it's possible that

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Speaker 2: in doing that and in meeting somebody else who does

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Speaker 2: that might set up a situation so you're less likely

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Speaker 2: to express the people pleasing because you're with people who

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Speaker 2: are pleasing as well.

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Speaker 4: Yes, while you were talking, I was just thinking that,

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Speaker 4: especially during my last job, which involved a lot of

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Speaker 4: different deployments to many different emergencies, ranging from a couple

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Speaker 4: of weeks at a time to a couple of months

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Speaker 4: at a time.

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Speaker 3: It was very taxing.

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Speaker 4: It was very tiring as well, and I didn't prioritize

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Speaker 4: me for those.

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Speaker 3: Couple of years, just because it.

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Speaker 4: Felt like I wasn't really a priority when there's so

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Speaker 4: much suffering all around me.

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Speaker 1: So you have this idea that there's some kind of

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Speaker 1: hierarchy that if somebody else is suffering more than you are,

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Speaker 1: that your needs aren't as important.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So when you were going through that, you're saying

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Speaker 2: over the past those two years, you might have neglected

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Speaker 2: yourself a bit, and your own priorities and needs got

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Speaker 2: pushed to the side a bit. Were you married at

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Speaker 2: that time when you're going in all these deployments, it.

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Speaker 4: Was actually kind of crazy. I remember deploying to one

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Speaker 4: emergency it was in Africa, and I got back and

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Speaker 4: I got married two days later. I tried to somehow

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Speaker 4: build my life around my job or my deployment.

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Speaker 3: So that also reflected.

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Speaker 4: In meeting friends. I didn't make friends at all during

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Speaker 4: those couple of years. It was more connections that I

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Speaker 4: met during my deployments, but not really friends or even

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Speaker 4: maintaining my friendships. I think I was not really there.

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Speaker 4: I missed a bunch of weddings and birthdays. I guess

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Speaker 4: I never really asked what I wanted. I missed out

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Speaker 4: on a lot of things.

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Speaker 2: So you and your husband went, given these deployments and

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Speaker 2: given the separations that they force upon you both, how

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Speaker 2: much is there an ongoing dialogue between you about, Hey,

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Speaker 2: we're only going to see each other for a little

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Speaker 2: bit of time. Here's what I need. What do you need?

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Speaker 2: Is that a conversation that you both have.

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Speaker 4: So actually, after I did those deployments for about four years,

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Speaker 4: I moved to Afghanistan for two years, So that was

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Speaker 4: even harder in a way because I was permanently there

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Speaker 4: and it was hard. And then covided and that meant

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Speaker 4: we saw each other even less.

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Speaker 3: But I think we have this.

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Speaker 4: Understanding that I do this for a limited amount of

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Speaker 4: time and I'll be back. Now I'm back with my husband.

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Speaker 4: We look together and it's refreshing and nice to actually

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Speaker 4: be together in the same country. He's super supportive, and

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Speaker 4: I think we have this understanding without actually having to

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Speaker 4: discuss or talk about it much.

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Speaker 3: We want to start a family, too, so.

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Speaker 4: I think it's the first time I'm trying to prioritize

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Speaker 4: my private life.

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Speaker 2: You're kind of implying that we kind of sense each

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Speaker 2: other's needs and we know the drill and so we're

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Speaker 2: there to support each other. But he doesn't express Hey,

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Speaker 2: this is really hard when you're away. Maybe we can

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Speaker 2: figure out how to spend more time together, you know,

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Speaker 2: in the next deployment or whatever it is. You don't

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Speaker 2: actually verbalize those things to one another.

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Speaker 3: You would never say, don't go, I don't want you

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Speaker 3: to go. Stay with me.

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Speaker 4: He is the type of person who would say, do

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Speaker 4: it if you feel like it's going to advance your career.

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Speaker 4: We'll figure it out as long as you're happy.

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Speaker 2: So he's a people pleaser.

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Speaker 3: Too, I guess. So we found each other.

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Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about your relationship with your family. Now.

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Speaker 4: My parents are actually back in Bangladesh. They moved back

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Speaker 4: a couple of years ago. I see them around once

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Speaker 4: or twice a year, and I speak to my mom

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Speaker 4: once a week or so. I don't speak to my

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Speaker 4: dad often. In fact, we hadn't spoken in years, just

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Speaker 4: up until recently.

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Speaker 1: What changed there?

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Speaker 4: I think he feels guilty for his actions in the past,

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Speaker 4: and so he never really actively reached out. But I

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Speaker 4: was never fully guilting him, or I was never fully upset,

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Speaker 4: just because he was away so often, so he wasn't

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Speaker 4: even really.

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Speaker 3: Present for me to be upset.

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Speaker 4: So I think he never reached out, and I felt

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Speaker 4: like I should never read out because he was literally

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Speaker 4: not there while I was growing up. But I guess

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Speaker 4: as he's getting older, I felt like, maybe it's just

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Speaker 4: silly that we're both pulling up this wall. And I

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Speaker 4: was also curious I never really got to know him,

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Speaker 4: so I just kind of wanted to get to know

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Speaker 4: more about him.

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Speaker 3: But I don't feel the need to talk to him

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Speaker 3: as much as I thought I would. With my brother,

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Speaker 3: it was always.

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Speaker 4: My sister in law who was the connection to my

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Speaker 4: brother because my brother was also always busy and ten

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Speaker 4: years older, so I feel like we didn't really have

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Speaker 4: much to connect with each other.

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Speaker 1: You say in your letter that when you visit your

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Speaker 1: family that you feel like a maid to your brother

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Speaker 1: and a counselor to your mother. Yeah, is that still

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Speaker 1: the case?

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Speaker 4: So maybe I'll start with my brother. He was very

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Speaker 4: demanding growing up. He was sort of my father figure

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Speaker 4: in the absence of my actual father, and he would

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Speaker 4: be the one I would actually be scared of, Scared

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Speaker 4: of bad grades, scared of, you know, staying out too late,

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Speaker 4: of him judging me. He gets angry and mad very easily.

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Speaker 4: I always felt like I did something wrong because whatever

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Speaker 4: I did, he would either laugh at it or get mad.

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Speaker 1: Can you paint a picture of what would happen when

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Speaker 1: he got mad. What was that like?

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Speaker 4: It was very loud, so he would literally start yelling

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Speaker 4: at me. I remember one time he even shook me.

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Speaker 4: It was very intimidating as a small girl, and I

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Speaker 4: guess I sort of shut down.

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Speaker 3: I would not speak much.

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Speaker 4: I would not say much, just to protect myself because

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Speaker 4: his reactions were so unpredictable.

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Speaker 2: Where was your mom when this was happening with your brother.

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Speaker 4: Busy helping my dad run the business. I think sometimes

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Speaker 4: she witnessed it or she would sense it, And I

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Speaker 4: remember she would always say, Kate, don't be scared. Stand

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Speaker 4: up for yourself. But it was just too hard to

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Speaker 4: implement as a child. I just couldn't do it by myself.

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Speaker 1: So she would tell you to stand up to him.

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Speaker 1: But it sounds like she never did what she should

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Speaker 1: be doing as a parent, which is she should have

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Speaker 1: stood up to him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think she was also scared of them, to be honest,

250
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Speaker 4: and I think she still is because he shows the

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Speaker 4: same reactions towards her. She wasn't really a mother to him.

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Speaker 4: She was almost more like the child being scolded by

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Speaker 4: my brother.

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Speaker 3: It's weird.

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Speaker 1: And in terms of your father, you said he cheated

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Speaker 1: on your mom. He had several children, you don't know

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Speaker 1: how many. It sounds like your mom might be a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a people pleaser, where she was afraid

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Speaker 1: to say anything.

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Speaker 3: They had many fights growing up. I remember.

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Speaker 4: So many weekend warnings waking up to fighting or even

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Speaker 4: in the evenings and overhearing really terrible things that probably

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Speaker 4: no child should hear.

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Speaker 3: She would yell at him as well.

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Speaker 4: But there was never a moment where I thought, Wow,

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Speaker 4: they're actually going to get divorced. And as a thirteen

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Speaker 4: year old me, I advised my mom to get divorced

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Speaker 4: to my dad, but she decided to stay despite everything

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Speaker 4: that happened, despite him leaving us, leaving her in the

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Speaker 4: worst position. Also after the business.

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Speaker 2: Failed, you said that when you're old enough to leave

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Speaker 2: the school, you kind of fled because it was a

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Speaker 2: way to get out. But once you had left home

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Speaker 2: and you at least had a taste of adulthood, was

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Speaker 2: there a difference in how you felt or how you

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Speaker 2: reacted once you were a little bit older.

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Speaker 4: Whenever I left, I felt so free. I felt like

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Speaker 4: I could finally be myself. But whenever I would come home,

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Speaker 4: I would fall back right into where I lived and

280
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Speaker 4: In fact, I felt even guiltier for leaving. And I

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00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:24,440
Speaker 4: remember how I was in this impossible position of trying

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Speaker 4: to split up my time between my brother and his

283
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Speaker 4: family and my mom, and neither side would be happy

284
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Speaker 4: with the amount of time spent with them. It would

285
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Speaker 4: always be a struggle to make both of them happy.

286
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Speaker 4: My brother even counted down the days of how many

287
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Speaker 4: nights I spent at their place versus how many days

288
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Speaker 4: at my mom's whatever I did. But still, obviously I

289
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,440
Speaker 4: felt guilty because she was all by herself. She doesn't

290
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Speaker 4: have many friends. She only had my dad, who also

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Speaker 4: did his own things, so I felt like she was

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Speaker 4: always alone, and yeah, I was sort of the only

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Speaker 4: one she wanted to be around with.

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Speaker 1: Ever, it sounds like you did a lot of caretaking

295
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Speaker 1: for your mom growing up. You talked about that in

296
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Speaker 1: your letter as well. You described her a little while

297
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Speaker 1: ago as sort of the child. What was it like

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Speaker 1: for you as a child to feel like you had

299
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Speaker 1: to take care of your mom?

300
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Speaker 3: It was really hard.

301
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Speaker 4: I remember when my dad left for a couple of months,

302
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,800
Speaker 4: I would come home every day after school and I

303
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,320
Speaker 4: would find her sitting on the couch just crying.

304
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Speaker 3: So every day.

305
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Speaker 4: The first thing I'd do after coming back from school

306
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,480
Speaker 4: is to console her and talk to her for what

307
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:45,800
Speaker 4: felt like hours.

308
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Speaker 3: And there were.

309
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Speaker 4: So many times I didn't go out with my friends

310
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Speaker 4: because I felt like I had to be there. Sometimes

311
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Speaker 4: she would say, please don't go tonight. Sometimes she wouldn't

312
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Speaker 4: even have to ask. I would just stay because I

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Speaker 4: felt too guilty. So yeah, it was tough seeing.

314
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Speaker 3: Her like that.

315
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Speaker 2: What other feelings did you have rather than girl? Did

316
00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,359
Speaker 2: you feel resentful? Did you feel angry? Were you're jealous

317
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,679
Speaker 2: of friends who didn't have that situation?

318
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Speaker 3: Absolutely everything you just said. I was angry. I was resentful.

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Speaker 4: I didn't want to spend time with her in the

320
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Speaker 4: living room. I would just stay in my room, which

321
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,720
Speaker 4: actually doesn't even make sense for me staying at home

322
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Speaker 4: to not be with her. I wanted to live a

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Speaker 4: happy teenage life, and I would talk to my friends

324
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Speaker 4: after the parties and they would say how great it was,

325
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Speaker 4: and I felt like I missed out on a lot

326
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Speaker 4: of things.

327
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Speaker 1: Did you ever express that to your mom?

328
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Speaker 4: I did when I was angry, but not in a

329
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,120
Speaker 4: meaningful way. I don't think I actually ever sat down

330
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Speaker 4: with her and told her how hard it was for

331
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Speaker 4: me because I always had to be.

332
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Speaker 3: The strong one.

333
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Speaker 4: She would have crumbled had she seen that I was

334
00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:04,639
Speaker 4: suffering from the effects of her failed marriage. She was

335
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,760
Speaker 4: always very thankful, and she would always say how much

336
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Speaker 4: she loves me and.

337
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Speaker 3: How proud she is.

338
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Speaker 4: That I pulled off school while dealing with all these troubles.

339
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Speaker 3: But I don't think she.

340
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Speaker 4: Ever truly understood how much it affected me because ELSON

341
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Speaker 4: never showed it.

342
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Speaker 1: The reason that we people please and the reason that

343
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,240
Speaker 1: we don't say something is because we're afraid of some

344
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Speaker 1: negative consequence. So what did you think the negative consequence

345
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Speaker 1: would be if you said, Hey, Mom, I really want

346
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Speaker 1: to go to this party, or I really want to

347
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,520
Speaker 1: go out with my friends, or this is really hard

348
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Speaker 1: on me. I don't know how to take care of you.

349
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Speaker 3: I don't think she would have been able to handle this.

350
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Speaker 3: She would have probably just cried more. Maybe she would

351
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Speaker 3: have tried not to pour her heart out to me.

352
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Speaker 4: I just knew I had to take care of her,

353
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Speaker 4: and I knew that I was the only person she

354
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,240
Speaker 4: could rely on. I actually think she was clinically depressed

355
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:10,040
Speaker 4: in hindsight.

356
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Speaker 3: I just know that I had to take care of her.

357
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,680
Speaker 2: What often happens with people pleasers, is that there's something

358
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:23,639
Speaker 2: quite empowering about being able to be that antidepressant for

359
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,320
Speaker 2: your mum when she's going through such a hard time.

360
00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,679
Speaker 2: You were the only medication that worked. You were the

361
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Speaker 2: one thing that she needed and she appreciated it at least,

362
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 2: which is good. And she expressed that a lot. And

363
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 2: so the connection you felt with her was in some

364
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,399
Speaker 2: significant way related to the fact that she expressed her

365
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,640
Speaker 2: love and appreciation for you in those ways. She also

366
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,800
Speaker 2: appreciated you were able to do well in school, so

367
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,600
Speaker 2: there were messages she was giving you that were really

368
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 2: valuable to you. On the one hand, they were very

369
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,120
Speaker 2: damaging on the other because they kept you in that prison,

370
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,919
Speaker 2: but they have that value you as well. It's a

371
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,160
Speaker 2: double edged sword, and sometimes people are afraid of losing

372
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,679
Speaker 2: that positive part of losing that feeling of empowerment of like,

373
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Speaker 2: I'm just a kid, but I'm powerful enough to save

374
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,560
Speaker 2: my mother from how a distress and that's difficult to

375
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:16,960
Speaker 2: give up.

376
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Speaker 3: Yes, I guess you're right.

377
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 4: I did want to be valued and appreciated by my mother, definitely.

378
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's another aspect to this that I think is

379
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,720
Speaker 1: important too. Which is that you had a lot of

380
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:37,679
Speaker 1: feelings about your father's absence and your father's neglect. Really,

381
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,879
Speaker 1: and your mom had a lot of feelings about your

382
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 1: father's absence and his neglect toward her. And if you

383
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,399
Speaker 1: were taking care of your mother and her feelings about

384
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 1: your father, you didn't have to deal as much with

385
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 1: your own, because so much of that was about let

386
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,679
Speaker 1: me manage my mom's feelings about my dad. I have

387
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 1: feeling about him too, but I'm not going to think

388
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 1: too much about that because I can channel it all

389
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 1: into taking care of my mother's feelings about my dad.

390
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 1: And I wonder if at any point you started feeling

391
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 1: your own feelings about your dad that were separate from

392
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,480
Speaker 1: your mom's feelings about your dad. Did you ever get

393
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 1: to that point where you weren't so en messed with

394
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 1: her around this and you could come up with your

395
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:28,360
Speaker 1: own ideas about how you felt about your relationship with him.

396
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,119
Speaker 4: I mean, I was mad at him, but I was

397
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 4: mad at him for leaving my mom. I wasn't really

398
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 4: mad at him for leading us the kids, and I

399
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 4: didn't talk to him for years at a time because

400
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,399
Speaker 4: I felt like I was on my mom's side when

401
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 4: I was protecting her by doing that and trying to

402
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 4: hurt him by not being in touch with him.

403
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 3: But I guess I never really just because he really wasn't.

404
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 3: I don't even know this person so much.

405
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 4: I have some good memories of him coming back home

406
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 4: from his business trips and bringing me nice things, and

407
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 4: I would run into his arms. But I feel like

408
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 4: I don't even know him enough to have my own

409
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 4: feelings towards him.

410
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 1: I want you to hear what you're saying. You're saying

411
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 1: I feel like I didn't know him enough to have

412
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,880
Speaker 1: feelings toward him. You're a child and your parent is away,

413
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 1: So the fact that you didn't know him is enough

414
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: to have feelings about him. It's not that out of sight,

415
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 1: out of mind because he was away, I don't have

416
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 1: feelings toward him. It was because he was away. I

417
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 1: have so many feelings toward him, and they got squashed

418
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 1: down in the service of your mother's feelings toward him. Now,

419
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 1: she had legitimate feelings toward him. She was dealing with

420
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 1: a lot cheating on her, he was having other children.

421
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 1: He wasn't there. Clearly she was in distress, but you

422
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 1: were distressed. Never even made it on the radar, And

423
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 1: the way that you convinced yourself of this was to say,

424
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,400
Speaker 1: I don't really know if I have any feelings toward him,

425
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 1: because I don't know him well enough. Even though the

426
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 1: fact that you didn't know him is a huge statement

427
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 1: of abandonment.

428
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 3: It's really strange.

429
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:32,479
Speaker 4: I think of him sometimes and I think that, and

430
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 4: maybe that's how I justify it. But I would always

431
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 4: say that he's a funny person. He's charming, he knows

432
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:48,160
Speaker 4: how to talk, he's educated, knows about different cultures and religions.

433
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 3: But he's just not a family person.

434
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 4: And I guess that's what I always told myself, that

435
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 4: he's actually a pretty cool person, but you just family

436
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,479
Speaker 4: is not for him, and he preferred traveling abroad and

437
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 4: spending time outside, and part of it was working and

438
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 4: part of it was fun. But yeah, I never really

439
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 4: thought about the abandonment and that he left me dealing

440
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 4: with so many things.

441
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 2: Kate, if you think of yourself at that young age,

442
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 2: at six or at seven, and your dad's not around,

443
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 2: and your mom's miserable, and because your dad's not around,

444
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: your brother's around, and he yells at you and he

445
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 2: shakes you, and he scares you. And if you think

446
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:39,479
Speaker 2: of a seven year old girl in that situation, do

447
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 2: you think that she would have feelings about the fact

448
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 2: that her father isn't there and that those feelings might

449
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 2: not be Well, he must be a cool dude. He's

450
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 2: just not a family person. Does it seem reasonable to

451
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 2: you that another child might have had quite strong feelings

452
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 2: about the concept uens of his absence?

453
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 3: I think so.

454
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 4: Rationally speaking, any other child would be pretty mad about

455
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 4: the fact that the dad was not there.

456
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 2: And that's what we're saying that you need to be

457
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 2: interested in the fact that you really absorbed him of

458
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 2: or guilt from everything that was going on. You suffered

459
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: so many consequences for that absence, but you really didn't

460
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 2: blame him in any way. In fact, he remained a

461
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 2: cool dude in your eyes. And that's what Laurie was

462
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 2: saying earlier that part of the reason that happened was

463
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 2: because you channeled those feelings into helping your mom and

464
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 2: trying to make up for his absence, so much so

465
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: that you weren't able to take any look at all

466
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 2: at your own feelings and still struggle to do that

467
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 2: now about how you feel about the abandonment, about the

468
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 2: situation he left you in, about how that compromised your

469
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 2: childhood and so much your life in certain ways even now.

470
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you're right. I knew I always had

471
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 4: issues with my brother. I knew that there was something wrong,

472
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 4: and he was in fact the first person who brought

473
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 4: me into therapy.

474
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 3: Or even reading.

475
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 4: About our bond or the non existence of our brother

476
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 4: and sister relationship. I knew from my sister in law,

477
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 4: for example, she would always say, you have to also

478
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 4: look at your issues with your parents, But I would

479
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 4: always think why, Like, up until recently, I thought everything

480
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 4: was fine even with my mom, and I guess I

481
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 4: did not even consider my dad at all or my

482
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 4: feelings towards him.

483
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 2: When we're children and we have intensely difficult feelings about

484
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 2: our parents that are so so threatening to how you

485
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: would feel about your dad's absence, or to consider how

486
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 2: challenging it was to have to parent your mom, even

487
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 2: when you have an abusive brother yelling at you and

488
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 2: screaming at even scaring you in the home would have

489
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 2: been so big that you truly had to push them

490
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 2: aside and not see them because they were too big

491
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 2: to deal with. Not that they were absent. They were

492
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 2: too big to deal with. And that means that you

493
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 2: do have to dip into that now, because unless you do,

494
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 2: you will really be stuck in that people pleasing mode

495
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: in which you really dismiss your feelings in favor of

496
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 2: other people's.

497
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: And it's important to consider, as Guy said, both parents,

498
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: because the abandonment was very clear from your father because

499
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: he was absent, and you might not have considered that

500
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: your mother abandoned you too because you were so close,

501
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 1: you were always together, But in fact she abandoned you

502
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: because you had to abandon your own personhood to take

503
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 1: care of her, so she couldn't protect you from your brother,

504
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 1: or chose not to. She didn't see you as a

505
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 1: separate person, as a child, as somebody in middle school,

506
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 1: as somebody in high school who wanted to go and

507
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: make friends and do the normal teenage things. She didn't

508
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: see that it was not healthy for you to have

509
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: to be in that parentified role of taking care of her.

510
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: So you really didn't have a mother acting as a mother.

511
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: You didn't have a father acting as a father, so

512
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: you had the double abandonment, but you only saw it

513
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: as my father abandoned me. But hey, he's a cool dude,

514
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: and he's really interesting and he's just not a family guy.

515
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: But that hurts. Maybe he's not a family guy, but

516
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: he has a family, and when you are child in

517
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: the family of someone who isn't interested in being a

518
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: part of the family, that's extremely painful. And you didn't

519
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: have to feel so much pain because you were so

520
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: busy taking care of your mother. And I can see

521
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: your eyes are starting to get watery. You can start

522
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: to access some of this in your body, but I

523
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: don't think you've really started to put your toe in

524
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: there yet of what that felt like. For the same

525
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: reason that you were afraid as a child, I am

526
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: afraid of what will happen if I start to feel

527
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: these feelings and you're nodding.

528
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 4: I guess everything you said really hits home. I guess

529
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 4: I never really had to think much about my feelings,

530
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 4: and I guess it hurts now just because it didn't.

531
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 3: I didn't let it hurt me for.

532
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 4: So many years, and I sort of pushed away those

533
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 4: feelings that I never gave myself room to even think

534
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 4: about what it meant to me as a child, and

535
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 4: I had to deal with so many things.

536
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 3: I had to deal with.

537
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 4: My crazy brother trying to escape his madness, and I

538
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 4: had to deal with consoling my mom. I was always

539
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 4: fleeing because it felt like I could just be free,

540
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 4: and whenever I would come home, I would feel exactly

541
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 4: those feelings of being eight years old again and having

542
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 4: to deal with all these things, just in a different

543
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 4: time and space.

544
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: Now, the tears that you're experiencing now, did you ever

545
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: see those tears when you were younger or did you

546
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: not even let yourself feel any of this?

547
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 4: I remember a time when I was really, really sad,

548
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 4: and it was my best friend who was there for me.

549
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 4: But I remember thinking that if I keep doing this

550
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 4: and keep being so sad, I will lose her too,

551
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 4: because it's not fun to be around a person who

552
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 4: cries all the time. So I just pulled myself together

553
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 4: and put on a happy face.

554
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: So there's the people pleasing again. I can't be authentic

555
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: and get support from my friend because I will be

556
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: a burden to her. Yeah, yeah, was there ever a

557
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: time when you cried the way you're crying now and

558
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: just let yourself feel all of the sadness, the anger,

559
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: the sense of abandonment, any of that. Did you ever

560
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: let your body do some of the speaking that you

561
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: couldn't do with words?

562
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 3: I cried so many times.

563
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 4: I cried about my mom and about just our overall

564
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,479
Speaker 4: terrible situation.

565
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 3: Or yours hers.

566
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 2: Not mine, right, because your brother was the one person

567
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 2: you allow yourself to feel about. And I want you

568
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 2: to keep in mind this link between people pleasing and

569
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 2: shoving your own feelings down, because to people please, you

570
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: really have to allow other people's needs and feelings to

571
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: loom way larger than your own, and it really trains

572
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: you to be much more oriented towards the needs of

573
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 2: other people, truly, to not even ask yourself how you feel.

574
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 2: And so that's the connection that you need to be

575
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: able to break.

576
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think I've ever done that.

577
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, because when you were crying, you were crying for

578
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 2: your mum, but never for you.

579
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: And it was today that you were crying for you.

580
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: Did that feel different to you?

581
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 3: Yes? A part of me.

582
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 4: Doesn't even really understand what's happening right now. There are

583
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 4: so many I don't know what the tears are just coming,

584
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 4: but it's like my brain doesn't really understand. I never

585
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 4: thought I felt abandoned because, as you said, Laurie, my

586
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 4: mom was always around, so it never struck me.

587
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: Really, I would say the opposite. Your mom wasn't always around.

588
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: You were always around. She was depending on you to

589
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: be around.

590
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

591
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

592
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: And I think the part that's keeping you from feeling

593
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: your feelings too is this idea that if you feel

594
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: these feelings towards your parents, you feel guilty for feeling

595
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: that way. And it kind of is that both and

596
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: that we talk about so much on this podcast, which

597
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: is that parents can have good qualities and they can

598
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: also have let you down, and both of those things

599
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: can be true. It's not one or the other.

600
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess they're only human beings.

601
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: Yes, but you've always given them the benefit of the doubt.

602
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 1: My dad's this cool guy. He's not a family guy.

603
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 1: Oh well, no big deal. He goes off, he has affairs,

604
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: he has other kids, he's not here, and then our

605
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: family goes into chaos without him there. My mother becomes

606
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: depressed and lonely. My brother becomes the father figure. I

607
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 1: become the lone person who has nobody there to protect me.

608
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: Oh well, that's just how it is. And there's a

609
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: way that we cope as children. That is very effective

610
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: for us, because, as Guy said, we can't handle all

611
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 1: of these big feelings or these big realities. But now

612
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 1: you say, you're still in this people please in prison,

613
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: and in order to get out of it, you're ready

614
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: to start feeling some of these feelings because you're not

615
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: the little helpless girl in the house anymore.

616
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 3: Right.

617
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 4: I feel like I'm just really at the beginning of

618
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 4: this road and I don't even know what I'm feeling.

619
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 2: One exercise that you can consider. You mentioned you and

620
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 2: your husband want to have a family. If you imagine

621
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 2: having a daughter, and if you imagine that daughter being

622
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 2: in that position of having an absent father and a

623
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,479
Speaker 2: mother who was just relying on her at incredibly young

624
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 2: ages to support her. If you can imagine having a

625
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: daughter who never got to feel her own feelings because

626
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: she was always in duty to other people and that

627
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 2: she was sad and that she didn't get to do stuff,

628
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: it might be easier for you to access those feelings,

629
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: because I think it would be easy of you to

630
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 2: feel like that is not okay for my daughter.

631
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:10,399
Speaker 4: Can I ask you, perhaps, if you've dealt with other

632
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 4: people preesers like me, I mean, I don't want you

633
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 4: to put words into my mouth or feelings into my head,

634
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 4: but just because I'm so lost and my feelings other

635
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 4: than abandonment, What should a little girl have felt.

636
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 3: In that moment?

637
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,720
Speaker 1: I'm wondering where you went when Guy asked you that question.

638
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:41,879
Speaker 1: I think he touched something very tender in you, and

639
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: you got scared and went into the intellectual part of yourself.

640
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 1: You went into Okay, let me intellectually understand that, because

641
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: that's safer and that's familiar territory for me. So we

642
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: want to help you. We aren't abandoning you. We're actually here,

643
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 1: and I don't think you're used to that. I don't

644
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: think you're used to people being there and sitting with

645
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: you when you're having a feeling that feels scary to you,

646
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: and we want to give you a little taste of that.

647
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,280
Speaker 1: Like if you could contemplate guys question for a second

648
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: and imagine that little girl who is your daughter and

649
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: she's in that situation, what feelings come up for you

650
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: before you get scared and run away and want to

651
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: know all about people pleasing?

652
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 4: Sorry, Guy, I think I zoomed out while you were

653
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 4: asking me the question.

654
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 3: Could we do that again.

655
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 2: Yes, I want you to visualize your own daughter at

656
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 2: say seven, eight years old, a little girl who wants

657
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: to be happy, who wants to play, who doesn't want

658
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 2: to have to deal with too many adult problems. I

659
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 2: want you to visualize her face as she comes home

660
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 2: from school and she had friends, she was playing with them,

661
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 2: everything was fine, and she walks in and dad isn't

662
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 2: home and mom is weeping on the couch. Can you

663
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 2: keep the focus on your daughter's face, on what that

664
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 2: face looks like when she walks through the door and

665
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: sees that. Can you describe that?

666
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 4: Yes, it will be so annoyed, so so annoyed that

667
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 4: she would have to deal with this again, just another

668
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:31,280
Speaker 4: day with the mother crying. The happy mood would be gone,

669
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 4: actually not even caring or concerned, actually just really annoyed.

670
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 2: And what is it like for you to imagine that

671
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 2: being your daughter? How would you feel if that were

672
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:48,439
Speaker 2: your daughter, watching her in that scenario, watching her come

673
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 2: home and go from this happy child to this numb child,

674
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 2: this child who can't have any feelings because she can

675
00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 2: feel a little frustrated and angry, but that's all. Otherwise

676
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 2: it's too much.

677
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 4: I would be so sad. I would be heartbroken not

678
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,760
Speaker 4: to see her laugh and play.

679
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: And yes, yeah, how would you comfort her?

680
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 3: I'd probably give her a big hug and I would

681
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 3: ask how her day was and what she experienced, what

682
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 3: she would like to do this afternoon. I would like

683
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 3: to listen to her instead of always talking about myself.

684
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: That is so beautiful to hear the adult you thinking

685
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: about how you might take care of that child, because

686
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: that child is still right there inside of you. And

687
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: to be able to see you cry and feel the

688
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: sadness and know that as an adult you're now safe

689
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 1: and you can comfort her and say, wow, you were

690
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: just robbed of your joy the minute you walked in

691
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: that house. Your spirit was quashed. When you walked in

692
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: that house, you were terrified of what you might have

693
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: done wrong that day, because your brother's going to start

694
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: screaming at you depending on what you did or didn't

695
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: do right that day. Your mom's going to be dependent

696
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: on you to maintain her, and you become invisible. Yeah,

697
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: and when you can imagine the face, that's what you

698
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: would never let yourself feel or see, right, And.

699
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 2: Kate, what is so painful? I think in that moment

700
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: for you is that when you describe what you would

701
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 2: do as another which was so lovely, it gave you

702
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,280
Speaker 2: a glimpse of the childhood you should have had but didn't,

703
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: and that brought a lot of feelings for you too.

704
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 4: And I think a part of me whenever I speak

705
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 4: to my mother now, and I get annoyed that she

706
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 4: doesn't really ask me how I'm doing. She starts to

707
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 4: talk about her troubles and her life right away. I

708
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:34,919
Speaker 4: get so annoyed. And that's probably the reason.

709
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: Why it's an exact repeat of what you experienced as

710
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: a child. It was helped me with my problems daughter.

711
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 4: And I wish it wouldn't affect me so much. I

712
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 4: wish I wouldn't care so much about her not asking

713
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 4: me how I'm doing, but it does. And I told

714
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 4: her a million times, why don't you just ask me

715
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 4: how to do? And then the next time she calls,

716
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 4: she'll ask, and then the following times it's forgotten again,

717
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 4: and the whole thing will start all over again. I

718
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 4: wish I could just accept that I don't need my

719
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 4: mother to ask me how I am, but it really

720
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 4: bothers me.

721
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if we can look a little bit at

722
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: some of the other relationships as well. So where are

723
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 1: things with your father? Sounds like growing up, you would

724
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,399
Speaker 1: come back, he'd bring some nice gifts, you'd run into

725
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 1: his arms, and then he would leave again, and there

726
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 1: was this unspoken secret in the family that he was

727
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: having these affairs and other children. How did you learn

728
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: about this and the other children?

729
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,919
Speaker 4: So it's actually really terrible. We had someone to help

730
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 4: us in the household, and she turned out to be

731
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 4: one of his, and she was living with us, and

732
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 4: she was like a sister to me.

733
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: How did you know that was going on.

734
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 4: The day when my mom found out, she went into

735
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 4: her room and she saw my dad there, and I

736
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 4: heard her screaming early in the morning, so I ran

737
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 4: up and I saw my dad come downstairs. That was

738
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 4: obvious shortly after she left, But I think my dad

739
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 4: then left us for her, although he never mentioned it

740
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 4: obviously to us. He told us that.

741
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 3: He needed to find a new job and it happened

742
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 3: to be abroad, but I knew there was something fishy

743
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 3: about it.

744
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 4: And then years later I found out I had a

745
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 4: half sibling for my brother. She contacted my brother.

746
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 2: And you've never discussed this with your father directly.

747
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 4: I never discussed it directly with him. I caught him

748
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 4: once top on the phone with some woman and I

749
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 4: went back into the house and told him he's disgusting.

750
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 4: I think he was really ashamed. But we never discussed

751
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 4: ever since. I stopped talking to him, and I told

752
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 4: my mother I don't want to have anything to do

753
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 4: with him, so he knows, but we never really discussed it.

754
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 4: And I guess recently, I don't know why I felt

755
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 4: like I needed a father in my life, but I

756
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 4: don't even know what that feels like.

757
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: So what happens when you talk to him? Are you

758
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: then playing this game where you're pretending everything's fine. Yeah,

759
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: because I don't think you're really going to get a

760
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: father like that.

761
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,760
Speaker 3: No, And it doesn't really feel good either.

762
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 4: It's the I'm good and what happened happened, and we

763
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 4: don't really talk about things that happened in the past,

764
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:03,240
Speaker 4: so we just kind.

765
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 3: Of start from, I guess, a superficial stuff.

766
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: It feels empty.

767
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 2: When you're not being authentic. The conversation can't feel authentic

768
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 2: when you're engaged with the cool dude rather than a

769
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 2: father in that manner where you're not sharing how you

770
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 2: feel you've never brought up Hey, we never spoke about

771
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 2: why I stopped talking to you and what happened, and

772
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 2: I would like to without doing any of that. Then

773
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 2: the conversation is artificial and it can't feel satisfying in

774
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 2: the way that you would like it to.

775
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just feel like whatever he'd say, it almost

776
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 4: doesn't make up for he's so old now, it almost

777
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 4: doesn't make up for all these years.

778
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 3: That were lost.

779
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 1: Having a relationship with your father now is it going

780
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: to take away the pain from the past. But what

781
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,320
Speaker 1: it can do is it can give you a sense

782
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: of what it's like to have a father, which can

783
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 1: be very healing for you. He may not turn out

784
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,280
Speaker 1: to be exactly the father that you want or need,

785
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 1: but the more you're in touch with your own needs

786
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: and the more you can express them to him and

787
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: you can see what he's capable of in terms of

788
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 1: responding to them, it could be a very important healing

789
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: experience for you. Now that will help you with this

790
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: issue of caring more about other people's feelings than your own, And.

791
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 2: Katie will do another thing. Potentially it might make him

792
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 2: as a grandfather be more meaningful to you, because that

793
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 2: connection that you forged with him, even though it's not

794
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 2: going to make up for lost time, but it's more

795
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 2: authentic in the present, will resonate much more deeply when

796
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 2: you see him interact with your future kids than it

797
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 2: would write now, because right now it would be the

798
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 2: stranger interacting with them, and in that case it might

799
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 2: be a father and grandfather.

800
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: And on a similar note, let's talk about your brother

801
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,240
Speaker 1: right now. You say, every time you go to visit,

802
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: you feel like he's still telling you what to do,

803
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: and you still seem very afraid of him.

804
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have also had quite a difficult conversation with him.

805
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 4: It actually happened because one time he was criticizing me

806
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 4: and I actually stood up and left because I couldn't

807
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 4: take it anymore. And then when I came back, we

808
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,479
Speaker 4: had this huge fight for I think the first time

809
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 4: in our lives, and I just sort of exploded. Whatever

810
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 4: I do, he finds a way to criticize it. One time,

811
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 4: I'm leaving my job for love and he thinks I'm

812
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 4: crazy and makes fun of me earning as much as

813
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 4: a cab driver. And then a couple of years later,

814
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 4: I take up a job in a different country because

815
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,720
Speaker 4: it seems interesting, and he thinks I'm crazy for taking

816
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 4: up that job and leaving my husband. So I feel

817
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 4: like whatever I do is always wrong, And I told

818
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 4: him everything I was so frustrated about back then. I

819
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 4: was just so so mad. I literally I was at

820
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 4: one point just just screaming. It was like a big

821
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 4: screen coming out of me, and I had to try

822
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 4: to stop myself. And he was very defensive, and he

823
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 4: kept criticizing me and telling me how selfish I am

824
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 4: for doing my own thing and not considering the family

825
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 4: or him or the kids. He was mad because I

826
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 4: came to visit them too late. The kids had to

827
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 4: stay up for me while I wanted to visit a

828
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 4: friend on the way. And so yeah, that was hurtful,

829
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 4: but also liberating in a way.

830
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 2: Kate, it sounds like with your brother, the premise to

831
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 2: this day is that you were there to serve his needs.

832
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 2: That it's incredibly lop sided premise for the relationship. Is

833
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 2: there anything that he does that feels good?

834
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: No?

835
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 4: Actually, no, nothing. He was never really there when I

836
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,399
Speaker 4: needed him. He knew how difficult it was back then

837
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 4: with my mother, that he just sort of lived his

838
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 4: life and built his family and had other priorities, so

839
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 4: he wasn't really there when I needed him, and when

840
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 4: he was there, it made my life so much harder.

841
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 2: What is the relationship you want with him and his family?

842
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 3: So all I ever want it was to be close

843
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,919
Speaker 3: to my brother. I wanted a brother and sister relationship

844
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 3: where we could just let lose and make jokes, and

845
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:13,800
Speaker 3: we never had that sort of openness. And it's interesting

846
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:20,240
Speaker 3: because it turns out he's the same sort of criticizing

847
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 3: husband to his wife, and they're going through a not

848
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:29,879
Speaker 3: a divorce, but they're close to it. He is now

849
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:34,359
Speaker 3: living away from the kids and his wife, and I

850
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 3: think he's had a lot of time to reflect and

851
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 3: actually tries to make things better with me.

852
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 4: So he just recently came to visit and he told

853
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 4: me that he wants to work on our relationship and

854
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:57,760
Speaker 4: he wants us to do trips, visit my mom together

855
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 4: and share a hotel room and all these things. But

856
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 4: it's almost too much for me right now. I appreciated it,

857
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,399
Speaker 4: but it's almost as if I have some sort of.

858
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 3: Blockish.

859
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: It might be possible, Kate, that you don't know yet

860
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: how you feel about it, and that's okay. In fact,

861
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:27,359
Speaker 1: that is healthy. I'm thinking about that moment when you

862
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 1: were going to visit and you wanted to see a

863
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: friend first, and he got mad at you because the

864
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: kids were going to be asleep, and that reminds me

865
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: of your mom with don't go out with your friends.

866
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 1: Make sure that my needs are taken care of. It's

867
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: a very parallel kind of thing. Make sure that my

868
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: needs are taken care of. I don't care if you

869
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 1: experienced joy by seeing your friends and then to have

870
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: that whole history with him and for him to say, Okay,

871
00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: now I'm ready to be the kind of brother you

872
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 1: want me to be. I'm having this reckoning in my

873
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 1: own life and I'm starting to see things. You may

874
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: need to take that at your own pace. You may

875
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 1: need to be able to actually express for the first

876
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: time what you do need, and that will be part

877
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: of the coming together. It's can you let me go

878
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:25,360
Speaker 1: at my own pace? Because part of the problem, dear brother,

879
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: is that my needs were never in the equation. So

880
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 1: I really welcome this. I've hoped for this for so long,

881
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: but we need to do it in a way where

882
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: both of our needs are taken care of. As we

883
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 1: figure out how we can be different with each other.

884
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think in the back of my mind,

885
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:52,240
Speaker 4: a part of me thinks, well, now you're ready, now

886
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 4: that you're lonely, now that you're alone in your apartment.

887
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:03,280
Speaker 4: Now you're ready to travel with me, and now you want.

888
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 3: To be that brother.

889
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 4: It just almost feels selfish to me again that he

890
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 4: wants to travel with me now and do all those

891
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 4: things when I know that.

892
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 3: He's doing that because.

893
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,359
Speaker 4: His life is so sad right now, like your mom,

894
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 4: like my mom, O.

895
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 2: What you said just now is real. You just didn't

896
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 2: say it to him, and that's what you need to

897
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 2: be able to say to him. It's very fair to say, yes,

898
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 2: I really wanted this for a long time. But you're

899
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 2: asking me now when you're lonely, when you need it,

900
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 2: not when I do. You're still not asking me what

901
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 2: I need. You're still asking how I feel. It's that

902
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 2: authenticity that allows for close bunds.

903
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I feel like that when he tells me

904
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 4: he's going to come visit again in a couple of

905
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 4: weeks and I don't really want that. It's exhausting for

906
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 4: me too to listen to his problems now and I

907
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 4: just want my peace and quiet, which is so crazy

908
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 4: because all I ever wanted was to be close to him.

909
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,760
Speaker 1: And now that it's here, it's not actually here. What's

910
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 1: here is he has someone to talk to about his

911
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 1: marital problems. That's different from we have a reciprocal relationship.

912
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it can't become that. It's just that,

913
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 1: for good reason, you don't trust it. And what I

914
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 1: think we're asking you to do in all of this

915
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:38,720
Speaker 1: conversation today is to learn to trust yourself, to listen

916
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 1: to yourself when no one else was listening to you.

917
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 1: It was very hard to do that as a kid.

918
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 1: But now as an adult, can you listen to yourself,

919
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 1: access your needs, and then communicate them.

920
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 2: It's legitimate kid for you to say, you know, brother,

921
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 2: when I was a kid, I would come home and

922
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 2: Mom would cry on the couch and I had to

923
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 2: be her support and she never asked about me, and

924
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 2: it was always about me having to support her, and

925
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 2: that was really difficult for me. It's very difficult for

926
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 2: me when a relationship isn't reciprocal. And I've wanted us

927
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 2: to have that kind of relationship for a long time.

928
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 2: But when you come now, and you expect me to

929
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:23,240
Speaker 2: just be there for you the way I was for mom.

930
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,839
Speaker 2: That feels too one sided for me. That doesn't feel good.

931
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think you're right, And I'm afraid.

932
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:40,439
Speaker 4: Again of his reaction because I feel like he's going

933
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 4: to be so mad and.

934
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 3: Say, no, you don't understand. I actually want to be

935
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:47,399
Speaker 3: a good brother to you.

936
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 1: When he says you don't understand, I want to be

937
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,320
Speaker 1: a good brother to you, you can say, and part

938
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,959
Speaker 1: of being a good brother to me is making room

939
00:55:56,040 --> 00:56:02,240
Speaker 1: for my feelings too, so I can be able to say,

940
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 1: you know, now's not a good time to visit. I

941
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 1: have a lot going on in my life right now too,

942
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 1: but maybe we can visit another time, or let yeah, sure,

943
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,320
Speaker 1: we can talk about what's going on with your marriage,

944
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:18,479
Speaker 1: and also let me tell you a little bit about

945
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 1: what's going on with me so that you can actually

946
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 1: see is it possible for us to have more of

947
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: a give and take in this relationship? Is it possible

948
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 1: to talk to him about you scared me so much

949
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, or you try to impose

950
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 1: your values on me and it makes it hard for

951
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,879
Speaker 1: me to want to get close to you because I'm

952
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: happy with my choices. So, as we sit here now,

953
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 1: having had this conversation and imagining a universe in which

954
00:56:56,120 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 1: you might be able to be more open about what

955
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: your needs are and how you're feeling in these relationships

956
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 1: with your family members, is there any sense of lightness,

957
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 1: any sense of relief, whether or not you think it

958
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: can happen, but just imagining a small possibility. You're probably worried,

959
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 1: You're probably thinking about how they're going to react, but

960
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 1: imagining just saying those things and showing up. Is there

961
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 1: any sense of relief or lightness in your body that

962
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 1: feels a little bit different.

963
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, that will be amazing.

964
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 2: So, Kate, we have some advice for you. We'd like

965
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 2: you to have a conversation with you mom, and we'd

966
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 2: like you to keep in mind that when there's a

967
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 2: thirty year history, it takes time to change a dynamic.

968
00:57:57,160 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 2: It's like a big ship. It's a lot of effort

969
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 2: to change course. So there needs to be repetition. And

970
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 2: you've started that journey already and we'd like you to

971
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 2: continue it. We'd like you to first, when she asks

972
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 2: you questions about how are you doing, we'd like you

973
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 2: to not answer with good, but be a little bit

974
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 2: more nuanced and your answers there. But we'd also like

975
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 2: you to share with her two things in that conversation.

976
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 2: One thing that you're concerned about, but we'd also like

977
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 2: you to share something that you're joyful about or excited about,

978
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 2: because opening up emotionally and sharing should be both about

979
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 2: the difficult things and about the good things. She can

980
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 2: talk about her, but there are a couple of things

981
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 2: that as her daughter, you get to say, Mom, I

982
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 2: might not be the best person for this. If she

983
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 2: wants to talk about your dad, whether it's her concerns

984
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 2: about the affairs or whatever it is. Unless it's just informational,

985
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,919
Speaker 2: you get to say to her, Mom, I really want

986
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 2: to try and build a relationship with dad. This is

987
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 2: not good for me to be your counselor in your marriage,

988
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 2: and I think you could find one and speak to one,

989
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 2: a counselor religious person, community person, friend. But as your daughter,

990
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 2: that makes me really uncomfortable and I'm happy to hear

991
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 2: other things that are going on in your life, but

992
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 2: not about Dad. And the same thing goes for if

993
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 2: she's going to talk about her depression, if she's still

994
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 2: depressed and she wants to look better. I'm just miserable.

995
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 2: My life is so difficult to say, Mum, those are

996
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 2: the kinds of things you need to talk to professional about.

997
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 2: It's too much for me as your daughter. I'm going

998
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 2: to ask you to find someone professional who can really

999
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 2: help you with that. I want us to have a

1000
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 2: mother daughter relationship. Okay, So that's the first conversation you're.

1001
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 1: Going to have this week, And along those lines, we

1002
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: want you to I have another conversation this week, and

1003
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 1: that one is with your father, and we want you

1004
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 1: to say to him, Hey, Dad, I am so glad

1005
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,400
Speaker 1: that we are in contact and that we are trying

1006
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 1: to build something with each other. But in order to

1007
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 1: do that, it has to be an authentic relationship. And

1008
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean I'm here to blame you for what happened.

1009
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 1: It means that I need to be seen authentically, and

1010
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 1: that means that I want to be able to share

1011
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 1: with you what my experience with you has been like,

1012
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 1: so that there's room for me in this relationship too,

1013
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 1: so we don't have a fake relationship that feels empty

1014
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 1: and where I feel abandoned again. And I want to

1015
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 1: know if you're interested in that because if you aren't,

1016
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 1: what I'm afraid is going to happen is that I'm

1017
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 1: going to share some things with you and you will

1018
01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: abandon me again. You will get angry, you will not

1019
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 1: want to talk to me, you'll disappear. And I'm doing this, dad,

1020
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 1: not to push you away, but to bring you closer,

1021
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:10,720
Speaker 1: because I think that at this point in our lives,

1022
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 1: we're both realizing it could be very good for us

1023
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 1: to start to have a relationship with each other that

1024
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 1: feels real, and in order for us to enjoy being

1025
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 1: around each other, it has to feel authentic too. Are

1026
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: you willing to do that? Are you willing to let

1027
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 1: me talk about my experience growing up and my experience

1028
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 1: with you in the present, how it feels, so that

1029
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:39,439
Speaker 1: we can have a relationship that feels real to both

1030
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:43,439
Speaker 1: of us. And while you're having that conversation and also

1031
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: the conversation with your mother, we want you to notice

1032
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 1: in your body, since you have more access to how

1033
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 1: you feel from how your body reacts, notice how you

1034
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 1: feel in your body. Notice what that is like for

1035
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 1: you to not worry so much about what the other

1036
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 1: person is feeling and to notice what you're feeling.

1037
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 2: Okay, So those are two conversations. We're actually going to

1038
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 2: add one more, and that's with your brother, and the

1039
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 2: conversation there has to be a similar one to your dad.

1040
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 2: It has to be something like brother. I've wanted all

1041
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 2: my life to have a brother sister relationship with you

1042
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 2: and to feel close, and I'm so glad that you're

1043
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 2: open to that now that you're seeking that out now.

1044
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 2: I'm worried, though, that you're doing that now because you

1045
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 2: feel lonely and because you need me. I want to

1046
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 2: feel like you are here to listen to my needs

1047
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 2: and to my feelings as well, because that's the only

1048
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:53,919
Speaker 2: way we can really be close. So, for example, it's

1049
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 2: important for me to be able to be honest with you,

1050
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:58,800
Speaker 2: and to be honest with you. This is not a

1051
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 2: good time for a visit, so I would love to

1052
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 2: see you soon at some other time. But in the meantime,

1053
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 2: i'd love to continue talking, and I'd like you to

1054
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:12,000
Speaker 2: share an interest with me, and I will try and

1055
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 2: share things with you, but I need you to hear them,

1056
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:18,439
Speaker 2: and I need you to take them seriously. And part

1057
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 2: of taking my needs seriously and my feelings seriously is

1058
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 2: not to mock me. For the decisions I make, or

1059
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 2: for the values that I have, or for the work

1060
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:32,400
Speaker 2: that I do, to be respectful, to really get to

1061
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 2: know me as an adult, because you truly don't. You

1062
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 2: know me as a little sister that's there to help

1063
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 2: you and serve you. And that's not who I am

1064
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 2: right now. I'm an adult. I'm an independent person. You

1065
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 2: need to see me that way. You need to respect

1066
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 2: me in that way, and I think if you could

1067
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 2: do that, we could become close. But that's what I

1068
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 2: need for that closeness to happen.

1069
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 1: You don't have a lot of practice stating your needs,

1070
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:02,720
Speaker 1: and it might be hard for you to remember that

1071
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 1: what you're doing is actually very kind, that you are

1072
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 1: not abandoning them. You're doing something very kind, which is

1073
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:13,680
Speaker 1: I want all of you in my life. And we've

1074
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 1: had this difficulty and we need to change things so

1075
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: that we can be close. And so, because these are

1076
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 1: going to be probably uncomfortable conversations for you to have,

1077
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 1: we would like you to have some support as you

1078
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 1: do this. And we were thinking about your husband and

1079
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 1: how supportive he is. Is there a way that he

1080
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 1: can support you? For example, would you like him in

1081
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 1: the room when you're on the phone with these people,

1082
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 1: would you like him in the adjacent room, and then

1083
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:45,880
Speaker 1: we would also like him to be available to you

1084
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 1: and tell him. I might feel lots of things after

1085
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 1: I have these conversations, even if they go well, and

1086
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 1: they might not go well. I might feel guilty, i

1087
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 1: might feel unheard again, i might feel criticized again. I

1088
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:02,000
Speaker 1: might feel like that little girl again who's helpless and

1089
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 1: doesn't know what to do.

1090
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:06,200
Speaker 2: And I would say to him what I'd like you

1091
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:10,280
Speaker 2: to tell me, regardless of how the call went, is

1092
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:13,240
Speaker 2: how proud you are of me for being able to

1093
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 2: speak my mind and share my real feelings in a

1094
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 2: very difficult circumstance. And if I'm feeling guilty, I want

1095
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 2: you to talk me down and tell me that I

1096
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 2: did something that was overdue and that I'm really entitled

1097
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:29,080
Speaker 2: to do.

1098
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:35,720
Speaker 3: I think thinking of that little child probably makes it easier.

1099
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 3: So I'm going to try and think of the little

1100
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 3: me and how I feel.

1101
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 1: It's not just the little you to think of, it's

1102
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 1: the little you through the eyes of the adult you.

1103
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 1: Just like before in that other exercise that was where

1104
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 1: you were able to get in touch with your feelings

1105
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 1: and also the confidence that you have as an adult.

1106
01:05:57,240 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 1: You knew exactly what she needed. You said, I would

1107
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 1: go hug her, I would go ask her how her

1108
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 1: day was. I would say, how do you want to

1109
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 1: spend the afternoon? You knew exactly how to take care

1110
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 1: of her, And we know that you know exactly how

1111
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:13,920
Speaker 1: to take care of that little girl inside of you.

1112
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 1: So you are not the helpless little girl anymore. You

1113
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 1: are the adult who's very confident and capable of doing this.

1114
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:23,920
Speaker 1: As long as you can see her.

1115
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1116
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:35,000
Speaker 1: I think what Kate was discovering is that people who

1117
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:37,640
Speaker 1: have a tendency to people please often have a long

1118
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:41,440
Speaker 1: history of having their needs dismissed, of being told in

1119
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 1: various ways that their feelings don't matter as much as

1120
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 1: somebody else's feelings, and then they carry that message with

1121
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 1: them throughout their lives. And I'm really glad to hear

1122
01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:55,560
Speaker 1: that she hasn't carried that into her marriage. It sounds

1123
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 1: like she is able to express how she feels with

1124
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:00,920
Speaker 1: her husband, and she is able to be supported when

1125
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:04,560
Speaker 1: she wants to do things, and her needs are getting met.

1126
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:09,120
Speaker 1: But I do think that when you have these relationships

1127
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 1: that have gone on for decades and now people are

1128
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 1: trying to redefine them. She's trying to redefine it with

1129
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:18,680
Speaker 1: her mother, and now both her father and her brother

1130
01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 1: are saying, hey, I want to have a relationship with you,

1131
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: but it has to be on different terms. And once

1132
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 1: she's able to access her feelings, as we got her

1133
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:31,240
Speaker 1: to do a little bit in this session, I think

1134
01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:33,200
Speaker 1: she's going to get a lot of mileage out of

1135
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 1: that in terms of really being able to say, here's

1136
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:39,280
Speaker 1: what I need. This has to be a reciprocal relationship,

1137
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:41,080
Speaker 1: and it's going to be better for all of us

1138
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:41,560
Speaker 1: if it is.

1139
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:46,439
Speaker 2: It was really remarkable to hear that her father, who

1140
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 2: had abandoned the family essentially, who had left her to

1141
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:55,360
Speaker 2: the difficult brother and the needy mother, that she thought

1142
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:58,360
Speaker 2: of them today as a is a cool dude. It

1143
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:03,320
Speaker 2: was so distance from how she actually felt. And that

1144
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:07,840
Speaker 2: is indeed a result of implementing this idea that her

1145
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:10,720
Speaker 2: feelings don't matter. And when you're told as a child,

1146
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 2: and when you're given the message that your feelings don't matter,

1147
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 2: you yourself dismiss them and so thoroughly that you are that

1148
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 2: disconnected from them.

1149
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:22,519
Speaker 1: And I think that the part of her that knows

1150
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 1: exactly what that little, scared, lonely girl needed is going

1151
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:31,000
Speaker 1: to step up. And once she starts doing that, I

1152
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:33,240
Speaker 1: think she's going to see some big changes. Even if

1153
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:35,240
Speaker 1: the other people don't change in the way she wants,

1154
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:37,360
Speaker 1: I think she's going to see some big changes in

1155
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 1: how she responds to those other people. So I'm curious

1156
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:43,280
Speaker 1: to hear how this week goes for her.

1157
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:51,400
Speaker 2: Me too. You're listening to dea therapists will be back

1158
01:08:51,479 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 2: after a short break, So we heard that from Kate,

1159
01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:09,040
Speaker 2: and I am curious to hear how she did with

1160
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 2: the homework we gave her.

1161
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:13,600
Speaker 4: Hi Laurie, Hi guy, Thank you again so much for

1162
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:16,800
Speaker 4: speaking to me. It really meant a lot, and I

1163
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:18,760
Speaker 4: really took your advice to hart and spoke to my

1164
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,920
Speaker 4: family this week. I first spoke to my mom and

1165
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:25,759
Speaker 4: I told her how I was doing that I felt

1166
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:28,040
Speaker 4: a little bit tired from work this week, but also

1167
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:31,479
Speaker 4: that I really enjoyed attending a friend's wedding the other day,

1168
01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:33,599
Speaker 4: and she wanted to hear more about that and actually

1169
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:36,960
Speaker 4: asked questions. So that was great, and it showed me

1170
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,680
Speaker 4: that opening up to her actually means that I can

1171
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:45,760
Speaker 4: also drive the conversation. The second conversation I had was

1172
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:48,320
Speaker 4: with my dad, and that was a little bit more difficult,

1173
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:53,280
Speaker 4: and I shared with him how much of an impact

1174
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 4: his abandonment had on my life and on my childhood,

1175
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 4: and at first he kind of brushed it off and

1176
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:04,840
Speaker 4: said we should leave the past in the past, but

1177
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:09,040
Speaker 4: I kept moving the conversation back and told him how

1178
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:11,639
Speaker 4: important it was for me to share my feelings with him,

1179
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:18,160
Speaker 4: And when he started talking about his pain and how

1180
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:21,439
Speaker 4: he can't sleep at night thinking about what he's done

1181
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:25,720
Speaker 4: to us, I also brought it back to me and

1182
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:28,479
Speaker 4: told him that this conversation at this very point is

1183
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 4: not about his pain, but it's about mine, and that

1184
01:10:32,680 --> 01:10:35,200
Speaker 4: I really wanted to share it with him so we

1185
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:38,320
Speaker 4: can have a meaningful relationship. And I think he really

1186
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:43,480
Speaker 4: understood and he thanked me for opening up to him.

1187
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 4: The third conversation I unfortunately wasn't able to have with

1188
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:50,920
Speaker 4: my brother because he was traveling this week. But I

1189
01:10:50,960 --> 01:10:54,759
Speaker 4: will and I will share with him how I want

1190
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:58,479
Speaker 4: my future visits to be joyful for me and not

1191
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:03,040
Speaker 4: out of obligation or guilt. And I think he's going

1192
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:05,679
Speaker 4: to react well, but also if he doesn't I hope

1193
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:08,880
Speaker 4: it's not going to affect me too much, because I

1194
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:15,320
Speaker 4: will be more confident, and this conversation with you actually

1195
01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:19,719
Speaker 4: brought a new perspective to my life and so many

1196
01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:23,599
Speaker 4: other aspects as well. Also in terms of my job,

1197
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:27,840
Speaker 4: I'm wondering if my profession as an aid worker is

1198
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:32,760
Speaker 4: something I truly did out of passion, or if it's

1199
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:37,400
Speaker 4: something where I thought I could help other people. It's

1200
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:41,000
Speaker 4: probably a bit of a mix of both, but I

1201
01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:44,479
Speaker 4: do feel lately that it's out of service for others

1202
01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:48,280
Speaker 4: and it's not serving me, So perhaps it's an opportunity

1203
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 4: for me to figure out what I actually really want

1204
01:11:51,240 --> 01:11:55,320
Speaker 4: to do. I also wanted to share some good news.

1205
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:58,160
Speaker 4: I just found out I was pregnant, So I'm really

1206
01:11:58,200 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 4: really happy that I get to have these conversations now

1207
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:06,200
Speaker 4: so that I can also become a better mother for

1208
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 4: my child.

1209
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 3: So thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.

1210
01:12:15,080 --> 01:12:18,360
Speaker 2: I was so impressed by this voicemail and what Kate

1211
01:12:18,479 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 2: did over the week. It's not just that she took

1212
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:26,479
Speaker 2: the advice to heart, It's that she really had to,

1213
01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:30,240
Speaker 2: especially with her dad circle back and insists no, I

1214
01:12:30,320 --> 01:12:33,240
Speaker 2: want to have this conversation and then when he said, okay,

1215
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:35,840
Speaker 2: we'll have it, but let's talk about me, she said, no, no, no,

1216
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:40,240
Speaker 2: this is about my pain. She really insisted with him,

1217
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:44,400
Speaker 2: and that was successful. And with her mom, she was

1218
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:48,240
Speaker 2: really successful in opening up and talking about some happy

1219
01:12:48,400 --> 01:12:52,120
Speaker 2: and regular things in a way that felt good to her.

1220
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,720
Speaker 2: So I really felt that she got it. She did

1221
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:58,840
Speaker 2: it so well, she felt the results of it, and

1222
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:02,040
Speaker 2: she says that really increased my confidence. And yes, she

1223
01:13:02,080 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 2: hadn't had a chance to talk with her brother, but

1224
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 2: I do get the sense from how well she did

1225
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:08,680
Speaker 2: with the first two calls that she will have that

1226
01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:11,760
Speaker 2: conversation with her brother, and I really trust that she'll

1227
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:12,599
Speaker 2: do with a job with it.

1228
01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:16,599
Speaker 1: This whole session was based on her letter saying, I

1229
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:19,880
Speaker 1: feel like I'm a people pleaser and I don't know

1230
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 1: how to change that. And I think when we got

1231
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:25,679
Speaker 1: to sort of the root of what that was all about,

1232
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:28,840
Speaker 1: and she really was able to not only understand it,

1233
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:32,720
Speaker 1: but to feel understood, to feel like, oh, maybe there

1234
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:35,160
Speaker 1: is a way forward. I love that she was able

1235
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:38,280
Speaker 1: to talk about things that were joyful with her mom,

1236
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:41,600
Speaker 1: because that had been a problem, and usually the conversation

1237
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:44,559
Speaker 1: was about the mom's issues and it didn't go that

1238
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:47,759
Speaker 1: way because of the boundary she had set, and also

1239
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:50,400
Speaker 1: with her dad. There were three things that happened. The

1240
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 1: first was that he said, let's leave the past in

1241
01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:57,000
Speaker 1: the past, and she said no. And then he said, okay,

1242
01:13:57,040 --> 01:13:59,080
Speaker 1: we can talk about pain. But basically he was talking

1243
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:01,320
Speaker 1: about his guilt and his pain and she said no.

1244
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:05,880
Speaker 1: And then she talked about her own experience and he

1245
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:09,120
Speaker 1: thanked her for opening up to him. So I thought

1246
01:14:09,160 --> 01:14:12,920
Speaker 1: that was beautifully, beautifully done. And I like what she

1247
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:14,880
Speaker 1: said about the fact that even though she hadn't had

1248
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:17,400
Speaker 1: a chance yet to talk to the brother, she has

1249
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:21,040
Speaker 1: in her mind the sense that even if he doesn't react, well,

1250
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:23,439
Speaker 1: it's going to be okay, that she'll be able to

1251
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:27,040
Speaker 1: kind of bring things back and keep having the conversation

1252
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:31,160
Speaker 1: until he really can hear her. So I'm very optimistic

1253
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:33,880
Speaker 1: about the changes that she's been making.

1254
01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:37,080
Speaker 2: And what I think was so interesting is that when

1255
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:41,320
Speaker 2: she understood where it comes from this people pleasing and

1256
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:44,799
Speaker 2: how much her childhood impacted her and made her feel

1257
01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:47,080
Speaker 2: like she has to be in the service of others,

1258
01:14:47,479 --> 01:14:50,960
Speaker 2: it gave her this insight about her job and her career,

1259
01:14:51,439 --> 01:14:53,519
Speaker 2: and she started the question, Am I doing this because

1260
01:14:53,560 --> 01:14:56,120
Speaker 2: it's truly a passion or is this just a professional

1261
01:14:56,520 --> 01:15:00,599
Speaker 2: people pleasing that I've gone into Because that's a question

1262
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:03,439
Speaker 2: and she needs to spend some time thinking about that.

1263
01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:06,120
Speaker 2: But the fact that she's thinking about that shows how

1264
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:09,479
Speaker 2: much insight she gained from that session and how much

1265
01:15:09,479 --> 01:15:13,040
Speaker 2: you really understood the impact of this childhood on most

1266
01:15:13,080 --> 01:15:14,400
Speaker 2: of her choices in life.

1267
01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:16,320
Speaker 1: And there was one thing that she really was clear

1268
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:18,400
Speaker 1: that she did want, which was to become a mother.

1269
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:22,400
Speaker 1: And her comment about that was that what she's learning

1270
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:26,519
Speaker 1: about people pleasing and where it comes from and how

1271
01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:30,280
Speaker 1: to have more reciprocal relationships is really setting the stage

1272
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:32,519
Speaker 1: to become the kind of mom that she wants to

1273
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:35,240
Speaker 1: be for her child, so she can model for her

1274
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:38,599
Speaker 1: child what it looks like to have that healthy balance

1275
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:41,840
Speaker 1: of your own needs and meeting somebody else's needs. So

1276
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:44,479
Speaker 1: I feel like it all tied together for her, and

1277
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:47,599
Speaker 1: I'm very excited for what the future holds for her.

1278
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:54,320
Speaker 2: Me too, I'm very hopeful for Kate. We hope you

1279
01:15:54,439 --> 01:15:57,720
Speaker 2: enjoyed Season three of Theotherapists. As we get ready for

1280
01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:00,920
Speaker 2: season four, we have two special Bonah episodes to share

1281
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:04,280
Speaker 2: with you. Sometimes After a session, we like to think

1282
01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:07,000
Speaker 2: about what worked well and also what we would do

1283
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:09,880
Speaker 2: differently if we could do it again. In these two

1284
01:16:09,920 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 2: bonus episodes, we do a case consultation with our intern, Ben,

1285
01:16:13,920 --> 01:16:17,519
Speaker 2: a psychology graduate student who pre interviews the guests and

1286
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:20,720
Speaker 2: helps select who gets on the show. Next week, we're

1287
01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:23,080
Speaker 2: going to unpack what worked with a session we loved

1288
01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:24,760
Speaker 2: Adam's Cheating Boyfriend.

1289
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:28,360
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1290
01:16:28,439 --> 01:16:31,280
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1291
01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:34,120
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1293
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:38,759
Speaker 1: help people to find the show.

1294
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:41,720
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1295
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:47,040
Speaker 2: email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

1296
01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:51,439
Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

1297
01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 2: by Josh Fisher, additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John

1298
01:16:56,280 --> 01:17:01,200
Speaker 2: Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are then Ernstein, Emily

1299
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:05,560
Speaker 2: Gutierrez and Silver Lufton and special thanks to our podcast

1300
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:08,920
Speaker 2: fairy Godmother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see you

1301
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:12,479
Speaker 2: at our next session. Deo Therapist is a production of

1302
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:13,360
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1303
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Speaker 3: Fish Fold