WEBVTT - #454 Lauren Bright Pacheco with James Soto 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.560 Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:13.480 been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes, 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:17.759 even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.520 to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.799 like to be their ally, the one outside committed to 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:27.520 fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:39.120 is wrongful conviction. When he was just twenty years old, 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:44.360 an act of violence would change James Soto's life forever 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:48.160 and the trajectory for the next four decades. At about 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:51.800 nine pm on August sixteenth, nineteen eighty one, shots rang 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:55.639 out in Chicago's Little Village neighborhood, killing two people and 0:00:55.680 --> 0:01:00.160 injuring a third. Although eyewitnesses initially pointed to other suspects's, 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:04.880 police ultimately arrested a few members of the two six 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:10.400 Street gang, which controlled the territory, including James Soto. Despite 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:14.720 no physical evidence tying him to the crime and plenty 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.360 of defense witnesses, James was convicted of the shooting and 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:22.800 sentenced to life without parole. Soto and his cousin David 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.920 Ayala would spend forty two years in prison. The longest 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:32.119 served wrongful conviction sentences in Illinois history until they were 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:38.000 exonerated in December of twenty twenty three. James Soto is 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:41.319 joining me today with a man who's been a tremendous 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:45.280 support to him and shares much in common with James 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:49.200 as well. In addition to also having been wrongfully convicted 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:54.880 and exonerated. Robert Almodovar is not only a close friend 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:57.400 to James, but the two men were actually cellmates while 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:00.280 in prison. Both now share the same passion and for 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:05.000 raising awareness for criminal justice reform. We have so much 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:10.280 to cover. Thank you both for joining me, Jimmy and Robert, Well. 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:12.120 Thank you for hosting us and having us here. 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:13.359 Absolutely, thank you. 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:17.400 So Just Jimmy to go back to the very beginning. 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.400 You know you're now in your sixties, but take me 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:23.640 back to the young man you were before all this 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.400 happened in nineteen eighty one. Where did you grow up 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:27.679 and what was your upbringing? 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:27.880 Like? 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:31.840 All right, Well, I grew up in the Pullman area, 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.240 which is on the far south side of Chicago on 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:38.000 ninety eighth in Avalon. I've learned later in life that 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:41.359 the neighborhoods that we grew up in in our formative 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:43.960 years really make us who we are. So I will 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:48.040 always be a Southsider from Chicago and the people in 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:52.520 Chicago because we're so segregated, We're very proud from whatever 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.560 section of the city that we come from. So but yeah, 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.640 I grew up there. I had a fondness for sports. 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:01.480 Baseball was my number one thing. I was on the 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:05.200 Avalon Cubs, which at a young age made me a 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:07.840 Cup fan and I am a Cup fan for life, 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:10.840 and I was so glad when they won the World Series. 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:13.600 Unfortunately I was locked up when that happened, but I'll 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:16.960 take it. So the summer of my fourteenth birthday, we 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.400 moved to the Brighton Park area, which is on the 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:23.119 southwest side of Chicago, and I stayed there for most 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:27.680 of high school. Then in nineteen eighty one, my uncle 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:31.919 was murdered by gun violence in the Little Village area, 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:36.280 and that was my cousin and co defendant, David Yalla's father, 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:41.040 I'll Fonso, and they had her house in Westchester anyway, 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:44.320 in the western suburbs, and I wound up going to 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:48.000 live with David shortly thereafter. It was a very nice 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.080 suburban home, had a built in swimming pool. It had 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:55.720 a mini gym, a greenhouse, five bedrooms, two and a 0:03:55.760 --> 0:04:00.200 half bats, basement, fully furnished. So you can imagine David 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:03.760 was eighteen and I was twenty. I wouldn't say young men. 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:08.600 We were more like late adolescents, teenagers more so. Living 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.200 in a nice house. And yeah, I mean Dave had 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.280 some money that his father left them. There was a 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.560 life insurance policy, so he didn't have to work at 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:22.479 the time. I was working at United Parcel Service as 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:26.560 a sorterer. But to say that we weren't enjoying ourselves 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:32.479 living pretty lavishly would be an understatement. So having all 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:37.560 that naturally made the Chicago Police Department CPD seeing us 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:42.080 driving you know, luxury fancy cars, Lincoln Cadillacs, those were 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:44.880 the cars of that time period. You know, Oh that's it. 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.599 So they made the assumption that they knew how you 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:49.599 were bankrolling all that. 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:52.520 Yeah, the assumption was that it was coming from, you know, 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:56.719 illicit drug sales, but that was not the truth. The 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:59.039 truth was were just some things that were left over 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:02.440 to David and I'm working. I actually was paying car notes, 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:06.520 so my car was being financed. So had they dug 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.320 a little deeper, they would have realized my car particularly 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:10.480 was not paid off. 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:15.200 Coming from the neighborhoods that you did. Was gang activity 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:19.159 very much on your radar on a daily basis throughout 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:19.760 high school? 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.360 No, absolutely not, it was not. It wasn't really until 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:27.960 nineteen seventy nine when David's brother, Alfonso the third gets 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.560 killed by gun violence. It was very hard for me 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:37.200 because it was my brother, David's oldest brother Tyrone. Then 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:40.640 it's me and then Alfonso and then David, and we're 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:43.600 all one year apart. So I would spend a lot 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:46.760 of summers at David's house when they were living in 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:51.640 Little Village. And so that's how I wound up getting 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.840 involved in any gang was because my cousin had been killed. 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:58.240 You know, I took it pretty hard, and as a 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:02.479 young he was seven, so I would have been eighteen. 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:06.000 As a young eighteen year old to have to deal 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.080 with that, you know, there was no one that gave 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:13.360 me any therapy for the trauma I was dealing with, 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:15.560 and the loss of I consider more like a brother 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:19.000 than a cousin, and so to know that he was 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:23.120 killed in that way, I misguidingly wanted to be part 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:25.919 of the same thing that he was involved in to 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:28.760 seek some type of revenge. But it wasn't like I 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.720 was out looking for revenge. It was just a way 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:34.080 in his honor that I thought, I need to be 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:37.000 a part of this, I need to do something. Yeah. 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:40.280 And there's also a huge social component of that too, 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:45.200 of course, it's belonging in friendship and camaraderie. 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:49.880 Yeah, But I would not define myself as a hardcore 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:53.200 gang member. I was what people would label as a 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:56.240 marginal gang member. I was on the fringes. I was 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:59.240 not someone because I'm working. I didn't have no time 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:02.200 to go hang out and do whatever. 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:07.799 So had you ever been on law enforcement radar before 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.600 the incident in the time leading up to it, had 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:12.600 you ever had trouble with the law? 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:14.000 No? 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.560 Well, yeah, I was arrested one time for what's called 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.000 a uu W unlawful use of a weapon. Some detectives 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.360 had pulled me over and found a gun, unregistered gun 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.760 in my car and charged me. But when it came 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:30.720 down to the problem cause of why they stopped me, 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:34.480 it was simply because I was in Lincoln Continental and 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:38.800 I was just I guess you would say profiled, and 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:42.160 my lawyer was able to get the case thrown out 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:46.280 pretty easily because of the illegal stop, and the judge 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:49.000 threw it out. So that was on my only criminal record. 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:52.160 I had no other runs with law enforcement when there 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:56.560 would be various shootings. Once they knew I was part 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.120 of a game, I was taken in several times and 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.600 questioned about it. I just, you know, said I want 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:03.920 a lawyer, and they pretty much left me alone. 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:06.960 And at the time, so you're employed for two years 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:10.040 at that point with you said, ups, what were your 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:11.760 thoughts or plans for the future? 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:15.360 I mean, you know, I had a girlfriend at the time. 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:19.560 I just learned, maybe two weeks before I was arrested 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:23.400 on this case, that she was pregnant. So in my mind, 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.120 I'm like, okay, she's going to have a baby. When 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:28.320 I learned she was pregnant, my thought was, I'm going 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:30.720 to settle down. I'm going to have to get my 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:32.800 own place and start a little family. 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:38.240 So take me to the night of the incident. So 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:44.920 it was August sixteenth, nineteen eighty one, around nine pm 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.840 on the southwest side of Chicago. Where were you at 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:49.240 the time. 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:53.320 I was in Westchester. It was me my cousin, David, 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:58.600 his girlfriend, my girlfriend, and my oldest sister were two 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:02.120 of her kids were at the house, and my sister 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.600 had prepared a meal for us, and I remember that 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:07.640 I just got my two plates and I went up 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:10.520 to my bedroom with my girlfriend and we were watching 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:15.960 some movies on the VCR, so long ago. Those things 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:19.920 are now no longer in existence. And yeah, she left 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:24.560 later in the evening, at around ten o'clock. So they 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.440 had the story on the ten o'clock news about, you know, 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.600 two people being shot killed and one third one being 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:34.800 injured at an incident in Petrowski or a Keiler park. 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.800 So, for somebody who's not familiar with the geography, how 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:42.880 far were you physically away from where the shooting occurred. 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:46.360 I would say that was a distance of about thirty 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:47.320 miles at least. 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:52.840 So you're thirty miles away, and unfortunately, yes, three people 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:58.800 were shot too, fatally wounded, a sixteen year old Julie 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:02.040 Limas who was aspiring to be a police officer, and 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:06.280 an eighteen year old Hector Valeriano, who was on leave 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:10.120 from the US Marine Corps at the time. So it's 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:15.439 a tragic incident. But you're thirty miles away from it 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:16.600 at the time. 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:21.079 Yeah, my thought was, you know, that's a terrible thing 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:25.479 that happened in the neighborhood of the gang or organization 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:27.760 that we were part of. But I didn't give it 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.360 a second thought to think who might have had any 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:32.559 involvement in it. I figured, oh, they're going to get 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.280 somebody for this, But little that I know they would 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:37.000 eventually try to point the finger at me. 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:42.320 So yeah, the investigation ends up focusing on gang rivalries, 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:47.960 and even though eyewitness accounts identified entirely different people, the 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:52.120 investigation then starts focusing on the two six gang that 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:56.719 you're affiliated with, but just on the fringe. When did 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:00.840 you find out that you were on the investigators radar? 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.680 To my knowledge, my name doesn't really come up until 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:09.200 the month of October. I believe that's when they finally 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:13.359 start saying, well, okay, because they thought they was involved. 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:15.880 They said, okay, well this other guy has to be 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:19.680 involved as well. But it was never really founded on, 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:23.280 like you said, on any eyewitness identifying me. It was 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:26.880 just they now said, okay, if David's involved, this other 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:28.480 guy got to be involved as well. 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:32.360 So they just bundled you with your cousin, and neither 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:36.120 of you were there, correct, So how were you arrested? 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:38.400 How did that go down? Where were you? Who were 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:38.760 you with? 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.760 So I got arrested on October fifteenth, once again, I 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:46.760 was in Westchester with my girlfriend, and ironically my sister 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:49.280 was there as well, the oldest sister that would be 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:53.360 later be my alibi. She was there. She made another 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.000 homemade meal, I remember it. It was spaghetti with homemade 0:11:57.040 --> 0:12:01.520 meatballs and Italian sausage and garlic bread. And I was 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.040 just beginning my plate to take it upstairs with me 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:06.720 and my girl to share, when we hear the knock 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.240 on the door, boom boom, and then there's a pounding 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:11.959 on the back door, boom boom. I'm like, what's going on? 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:14.679 So we look out the window and we see all 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.280 these lights and policemen running up to the thing. We 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.559 open the door and they come in and cut us up. 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:22.959 They just said they had a warrant. They didn't say 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:24.880 it was an unrest warrant. They didn't say whether it 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:28.520 was a search warrant. Yeah, So they went about the 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:32.520 house searching it, obviously not coming up with anything, and 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.440 they took us into custody and when I get to 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:37.920 the police station is when I first learned that. They 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:42.240 tell me you're under arrest for two murders and a 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.320 temp murder and this is a capital of fence and 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.319 you better say something now if you want to save yourself. 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:51.560 Well, Jimmy, what was going through your mind. You must 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:55.840 have thought, all right, stupid mistake, It's going to be corrected. 0:12:56.920 --> 0:12:59.199 That's exactly what's going through my mind. I'm like, this 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.600 can't be right, you know. Fortunately, there was an attorney 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:04.520 that was at the police station who would later become 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.559 my trial attorney, and he came and spoke with me 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:10.160 and said, they said they have witnesses, and he said, 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.200 I don't have any of the paperwork. He asked me, 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:13.880 point blank, did you have anything to do with it? 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:16.920 Of course I told him no, and he's like, well, 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:18.679 don't worry about it. If you didn't have nothing to 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.520 do with it, it'll work out. Just don't say anything. And 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:25.120 that was it. So in my mind, I'm thinking, Okay, 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:28.040 it's a mistake, and you know, they could be cleared 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:31.320 up fairly soon and I'll be out. But that wasn't 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:31.760 the case. 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.640 From that moment on, you're held until your trial. 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:38.080 Yeah, I was held with no bond in the Cook 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:41.319 County Jail. I was there for probably a year before 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:44.080 I went to trial. I went to September of nineteen 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:47.440 eighty two to trial. But leading up to it, I 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:51.319 would eventually find out some pieces of like that they 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:55.360 only had one witness who would be best termed an 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:59.199 accomplished witness. He was a young teenager as well, and 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:04.359 he made statement that David and I were supposedly conspiring 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.079 prior to the shooting with a group of other individuals 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.840 to attack a rival group. That David gets a phone 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:14.560 call and David then provides the key to a custom 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:19.880 blue van and gives us weapons, and we go out 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.280 to the park and me and another co defendant supposedly 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.640 walk down the gangway and shoot at the people. And 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.160 you know there was three victims as a result. 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:34.480 But that seems like a very convenient theory, Well it. 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:36.720 Was for them. Yeah, I didn't know that they had 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:40.040 rounded up Again to the Colaster trial, that they rounded 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:43.840 up twenty five people with the rest warrants, and that 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:46.560 out of the twenty five, at least maybe ten or 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:50.480 maybe twelve of them made statements which collaborated in some 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.200 sense what this individual was saying. But you have to 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.280 bear in mind that there was probably only out of 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:59.000 the twenty five people, maybe five were over the age 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:01.960 of seventeen. Every somebody else was fifteen and sixteen year olds. 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.400 And I was really mad that, you know, these individuals 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.360 who were supposed to be part of a group that 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.560 I was involved in, would break down and make this 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:14.320 false narrative. And so my reaction was as a young 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.200 man that these guys are punks, they're chumps, they're snitches. 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:21.360 But as I became more mature and I was doing 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:25.200 my studies, I realized that they were just as much 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:29.400 victims and or even more so than anyone else other 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:31.600 than those that lost their lives and the other that 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.440 got shot. Because they were held for three days. Imagine 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:38.680 you a fifteen year old held three days in custody. 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:43.040 Some of them urinated on themselves, being choked, getting nothing 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:48.480 to eat, denied water, I mean, the sleep deprivation. I 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:50.760 had to look at it, and putting myself in their shoes, 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.400 I probably would have broke down and said anything they 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.360 wanted me to say at that point. So, you know, 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:59.440 the police officers, law enforcement have techniques that they could 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:02.800 make a grown man who was innocent telling himself so 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:06.560 let alone at juveniles. So that started to make sense 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:09.560 to me as in the following years after my conviction, 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:11.160 what really was going on? 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:17.400 I'm trying just to get my mindset wrapped around your 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:22.960 living your life, have a steady job, have a steady girlfriend, 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.800 have a baby on the way. You're twenty years old 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:31.960 and your life is just interrupted, taken away from you. 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.880 What was that year like for you being held in 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.720 the Cook County jail. 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:42.080 I mean, it was probably one of the worst and 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:46.120 hardest years of my life because my girlfriend would eventually 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.920 lose the baby. She had a miscarriage. It was due 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:52.320 to squarely to stress. She wasn't eating right because she's 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.640 worried about me. I'm locked up. My car gets repossessed. 0:16:57.000 --> 0:16:59.200 You know, expensive rims on my car. I had a 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:01.840 nice sound system. When they repossess it, it's not like 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:03.320 they're going to give it back. They take all that 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:05.639 with it. So I lost that. I was upset with that. 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:09.159 But are you in contact at all with your cousin 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:11.520 David at this point? Is he being held at the 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:12.639 same facility. 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:16.159 Yeah, I'm with him for the most part. For I 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:20.399 would say at least half of that time or maybe 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:23.520 seven months we were held together. There was periods where 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:25.560 we would be split up. You know, that's how the 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.080 jail is. Oftentimes you're moving to another section of the 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:30.480 jail and they don't really give you any reasons why. 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:34.440 It's just it's disruptive. The jail is not nice. It's 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.720 super violent, and you're going to get in fights. It's 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:40.440 just part of what's going on there. And we're packed 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:43.320 in there. There was overcrowding problem. It was people sleeping 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:46.520 on the floor in the dayroom. So you got this 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:48.760 group of people and you don't have so much phone times. 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.760 It was always fights over the phone if nothing else. 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.080 So yeah, that in TV, what show you're gonna watch, 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.920 what channel you're gonna watch on TV? I would always 0:17:57.960 --> 0:17:58.880 wind up be in a fight. 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:03.520 So in terms of you and David, your mindset heading 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:07.520 into that trial, how would you categorize the trial in general? 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:09.879 And were you at all confident? 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:14.199 I didn't know much about the law, the legal system, 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:19.280 its process, and so my attorney puts on an alibi defense, 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:22.240 and I told you, the only evidence that really comes 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:25.000 up that indicates either David or I is this. So 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:29.520 called accomplice witness, and he had implicated two people in 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:32.480 this conspiracy as being part of this meeting that led 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:38.159 up to the shooting. One was in the hospital in 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:40.760 a coma told state after being hit by a car. 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.119 So he's in Mother Cabringing Hospital on the West Side 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:47.639 in a coma. Mind you, this guy testifies before the 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:51.000 grand jury that he's evolved with the case. The second 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:55.639 individual was in juvenile custody and he had to plicase 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.960 him as well. So this individual locked up ten days 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:02.359 before this crime, maybe even longer. And I'm thinking, Okay, 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.560 we're showing that he clearly lied before the grand jury. 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:09.040 And there's another fact. The accomplished witness says that David 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:13.199 owned a blue Custom van. No Blue Custom band was 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:16.840 ever recovered. They never showed David owned one. Now one 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:19.520 person says he owns this band, that he ever had 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.760 a van, There's no weapons ever recovered. And then they 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.440 said there's a phone call that happens from home running 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:30.120 pizza to David's house in Westchester slightly probably a half 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:34.800 hour before the shooting happens, supposedly from two young women 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:38.480 who say that they alert David that there's a rival 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:42.879 group in there. Well day subpoena the Illinois Bell telephone records, 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:46.040 which showed no phone call was made from Home Run 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:50.720 in that entire night to David's house. So again, these 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:54.360 things I'm hearing during trial, and I'm thinking, oh, well, 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.119 there's no way they're going to find me guilty if 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:59.080 they're hearing that. And so I'm thinking in my mind, 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:02.159 as my lawyer told me, you're going to beat this case. 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:05.280 You're going home whenever the jury comes back. There's no 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.800 way they're going to find you guilty. So I'm thinking, yeah, 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:09.960 I'm going home. 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:14.879 Because you have multiple witnesses who attest your alibi and 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:19.240 innocence being told by your defense that you should be confident. 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:24.720 Take me to the moment that the jury announces their verdict. 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:28.320 It was maybe close to nine and a half hours 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:31.320 on a period of two days, the first evening into 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:35.680 the next day that the jury is deliberating, and they 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:37.440 send a note down and tell the judge that they're 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:39.720 struggling to come up with a verdict and they think 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.520 that they might be a hung jury because they cannot 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:46.680 come to a unanimous decision on this case. And so 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:48.440 my lawyer said, well, that's a good thing. That means 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.639 they're struggling. Well, the judge just tells the jury go back. 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:55.200 He wouldn't accept them, saying that they were hung. About 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:58.120 a half hour later, they come in guilty of all charges. 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:00.399 So when I hear that verdict, when you know you 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:02.920 got to stand up to hear it, the reaction was 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:07.320 you could hear of some gasp. The state's attorneys were jubilant. 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:09.760 They were high five in each other, and I'm looking 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:12.080 at them. Then I turn around to look at my 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:15.040 family and just see them all breaking down in tears. 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:18.040 To see my father, who was the rock, the foundation 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:22.480 of our family, broken down crying. My sister's crying, my 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:25.480 girlfriend crying, It made me furious. I looked at my attorney. 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:27.280 I said, I thought you said we're going to beat this. 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:30.040 What happened? I looked at the judge, I looked at 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:32.280 the jury, looked them in the eye, and I'm like, 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:34.159 how could this happen? How could you come up with 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:39.280 a guilty verdict based on such flimsy evidence. So when 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:41.880 I do talk to my lawyer once again in the bullpen, 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:45.600 he comes to see me. He's seeing the how upset 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:47.840 I was, and he was like, no, you got to 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:49.720 hang in there. You gotta be strong. I said, it's 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:51.960 easy for you to say, and I said, so, what 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:55.119 are we looking at? And he's telling me that, well, unfortunately, 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:59.920 the laws in Illinois are that if you're found guilt 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:02.679 you have two or more murders, you got to mandatorily 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:05.480 get natural life. And I'm like, so what does that mean. 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:08.800 He's like, it means what it means. And I'm like really, 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:10.840 and he said, no, don't worry, We're going to go 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:12.800 on appeal. We're going to do the appeal. There's a 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:13.960 lot of things they're done wrong. 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:30.080 So months turned to years turned to decades. What was 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:35.000 the biggest hurdle for you transitioning to life in prison. 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:39.560 The most difficult thing is being away from family, hearing 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:46.400 the family milestones, graduations, baptisms, communions, weddings. I wasn't there 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:48.960 to see people have their you know, the birth of 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:51.240 a child that's such a celebration, and so many families 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:53.920 when a new life comes in there and I'm not there, 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:56.040 it was difficult for me to deal with. And then 0:22:56.040 --> 0:23:00.760 of course trying to maintain a relationship that certainly very hard. 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:03.560