Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have
Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes,
Speaker 1: even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like
Speaker 1: to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it
Speaker 1: like to be their ally, the one outside committed to
Speaker 1: fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this
Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. When he was just twenty years old,
Speaker 1: an act of violence would change James Soto's life forever
Speaker 1: and the trajectory for the next four decades. At about
Speaker 1: nine pm on August sixteenth, nineteen eighty one, shots rang
Speaker 1: out in Chicago's Little Village neighborhood, killing two people and
Speaker 1: injuring a third. Although eyewitnesses initially pointed to other suspects's,
Speaker 1: police ultimately arrested a few members of the two six
Speaker 1: Street gang, which controlled the territory, including James Soto. Despite
Speaker 1: no physical evidence tying him to the crime and plenty
Speaker 1: of defense witnesses, James was convicted of the shooting and
Speaker 1: sentenced to life without parole. Soto and his cousin David
Speaker 1: Ayala would spend forty two years in prison. The longest
Speaker 1: served wrongful conviction sentences in Illinois history until they were
Speaker 1: exonerated in December of twenty twenty three. James Soto is
Speaker 1: joining me today with a man who's been a tremendous
Speaker 1: support to him and shares much in common with James
Speaker 1: as well. In addition to also having been wrongfully convicted
Speaker 1: and exonerated. Robert Almodovar is not only a close friend
Speaker 1: to James, but the two men were actually cellmates while
Speaker 1: in prison. Both now share the same passion and for
Speaker 1: raising awareness for criminal justice reform. We have so much
Speaker 1: to cover. Thank you both for joining me, Jimmy and Robert, Well.
Speaker 2: Thank you for hosting us and having us here.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, thank you.
Speaker 1: So Just Jimmy to go back to the very beginning.
Speaker 1: You know you're now in your sixties, but take me
Speaker 1: back to the young man you were before all this
Speaker 1: happened in nineteen eighty one. Where did you grow up
Speaker 1: and what was your upbringing?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: All right, Well, I grew up in the Pullman area,
Speaker 2: which is on the far south side of Chicago on
Speaker 2: ninety eighth in Avalon. I've learned later in life that
Speaker 2: the neighborhoods that we grew up in in our formative
Speaker 2: years really make us who we are. So I will
Speaker 2: always be a Southsider from Chicago and the people in
Speaker 2: Chicago because we're so segregated, We're very proud from whatever
Speaker 2: section of the city that we come from. So but yeah,
Speaker 2: I grew up there. I had a fondness for sports.
Speaker 2: Baseball was my number one thing. I was on the
Speaker 2: Avalon Cubs, which at a young age made me a
Speaker 2: Cup fan and I am a Cup fan for life,
Speaker 2: and I was so glad when they won the World Series.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately I was locked up when that happened, but I'll
Speaker 2: take it. So the summer of my fourteenth birthday, we
Speaker 2: moved to the Brighton Park area, which is on the
Speaker 2: southwest side of Chicago, and I stayed there for most
Speaker 2: of high school. Then in nineteen eighty one, my uncle
Speaker 2: was murdered by gun violence in the Little Village area,
Speaker 2: and that was my cousin and co defendant, David Yalla's father,
Speaker 2: I'll Fonso, and they had her house in Westchester anyway,
Speaker 2: in the western suburbs, and I wound up going to
Speaker 2: live with David shortly thereafter. It was a very nice
Speaker 2: suburban home, had a built in swimming pool. It had
Speaker 2: a mini gym, a greenhouse, five bedrooms, two and a
Speaker 2: half bats, basement, fully furnished. So you can imagine David
Speaker 2: was eighteen and I was twenty. I wouldn't say young men.
Speaker 2: We were more like late adolescents, teenagers more so. Living
Speaker 2: in a nice house. And yeah, I mean Dave had
Speaker 2: some money that his father left them. There was a
Speaker 2: life insurance policy, so he didn't have to work at
Speaker 2: the time. I was working at United Parcel Service as
Speaker 2: a sorterer. But to say that we weren't enjoying ourselves
Speaker 2: living pretty lavishly would be an understatement. So having all
Speaker 2: that naturally made the Chicago Police Department CPD seeing us
Speaker 2: driving you know, luxury fancy cars, Lincoln Cadillacs, those were
Speaker 2: the cars of that time period. You know, Oh that's it.
Speaker 1: So they made the assumption that they knew how you
Speaker 1: were bankrolling all that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the assumption was that it was coming from, you know,
Speaker 2: illicit drug sales, but that was not the truth. The
Speaker 2: truth was were just some things that were left over
Speaker 2: to David and I'm working. I actually was paying car notes,
Speaker 2: so my car was being financed. So had they dug
Speaker 2: a little deeper, they would have realized my car particularly
Speaker 2: was not paid off.
Speaker 1: Coming from the neighborhoods that you did. Was gang activity
Speaker 1: very much on your radar on a daily basis throughout
Speaker 1: high school?
Speaker 2: No, absolutely not, it was not. It wasn't really until
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine when David's brother, Alfonso the third gets
Speaker 2: killed by gun violence. It was very hard for me
Speaker 2: because it was my brother, David's oldest brother Tyrone. Then
Speaker 2: it's me and then Alfonso and then David, and we're
Speaker 2: all one year apart. So I would spend a lot
Speaker 2: of summers at David's house when they were living in
Speaker 2: Little Village. And so that's how I wound up getting
Speaker 2: involved in any gang was because my cousin had been killed.
Speaker 2: You know, I took it pretty hard, and as a
Speaker 2: young he was seven, so I would have been eighteen.
Speaker 2: As a young eighteen year old to have to deal
Speaker 2: with that, you know, there was no one that gave
Speaker 2: me any therapy for the trauma I was dealing with,
Speaker 2: and the loss of I consider more like a brother
Speaker 2: than a cousin, and so to know that he was
Speaker 2: killed in that way, I misguidingly wanted to be part
Speaker 2: of the same thing that he was involved in to
Speaker 2: seek some type of revenge. But it wasn't like I
Speaker 2: was out looking for revenge. It was just a way
Speaker 2: in his honor that I thought, I need to be
Speaker 2: a part of this, I need to do something. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And there's also a huge social component of that too,
Speaker 1: of course, it's belonging in friendship and camaraderie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But I would not define myself as a hardcore
Speaker 2: gang member. I was what people would label as a
Speaker 2: marginal gang member. I was on the fringes. I was
Speaker 2: not someone because I'm working. I didn't have no time
Speaker 2: to go hang out and do whatever.
Speaker 1: So had you ever been on law enforcement radar before
Speaker 1: the incident in the time leading up to it, had
Speaker 1: you ever had trouble with the law?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I was arrested one time for what's called
Speaker 2: a uu W unlawful use of a weapon. Some detectives
Speaker 2: had pulled me over and found a gun, unregistered gun
Speaker 2: in my car and charged me. But when it came
Speaker 2: down to the problem cause of why they stopped me,
Speaker 2: it was simply because I was in Lincoln Continental and
Speaker 2: I was just I guess you would say profiled, and
Speaker 2: my lawyer was able to get the case thrown out
Speaker 2: pretty easily because of the illegal stop, and the judge
Speaker 2: threw it out. So that was on my only criminal record.
Speaker 2: I had no other runs with law enforcement when there
Speaker 2: would be various shootings. Once they knew I was part
Speaker 2: of a game, I was taken in several times and
Speaker 2: questioned about it. I just, you know, said I want
Speaker 2: a lawyer, and they pretty much left me alone.
Speaker 1: And at the time, so you're employed for two years
Speaker 1: at that point with you said, ups, what were your
Speaker 1: thoughts or plans for the future?
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I had a girlfriend at the time.
Speaker 2: I just learned, maybe two weeks before I was arrested
Speaker 2: on this case, that she was pregnant. So in my mind,
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, she's going to have a baby. When
Speaker 2: I learned she was pregnant, my thought was, I'm going
Speaker 2: to settle down. I'm going to have to get my
Speaker 2: own place and start a little family.
Speaker 1: So take me to the night of the incident. So
Speaker 1: it was August sixteenth, nineteen eighty one, around nine pm
Speaker 1: on the southwest side of Chicago. Where were you at
Speaker 1: the time.
Speaker 2: I was in Westchester. It was me my cousin, David,
Speaker 2: his girlfriend, my girlfriend, and my oldest sister were two
Speaker 2: of her kids were at the house, and my sister
Speaker 2: had prepared a meal for us, and I remember that
Speaker 2: I just got my two plates and I went up
Speaker 2: to my bedroom with my girlfriend and we were watching
Speaker 2: some movies on the VCR, so long ago. Those things
Speaker 2: are now no longer in existence. And yeah, she left
Speaker 2: later in the evening, at around ten o'clock. So they
Speaker 2: had the story on the ten o'clock news about, you know,
Speaker 2: two people being shot killed and one third one being
Speaker 2: injured at an incident in Petrowski or a Keiler park.
Speaker 1: So, for somebody who's not familiar with the geography, how
Speaker 1: far were you physically away from where the shooting occurred.
Speaker 2: I would say that was a distance of about thirty
Speaker 2: miles at least.
Speaker 1: So you're thirty miles away, and unfortunately, yes, three people
Speaker 1: were shot too, fatally wounded, a sixteen year old Julie
Speaker 1: Limas who was aspiring to be a police officer, and
Speaker 1: an eighteen year old Hector Valeriano, who was on leave
Speaker 1: from the US Marine Corps at the time. So it's
Speaker 1: a tragic incident. But you're thirty miles away from it
Speaker 1: at the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my thought was, you know, that's a terrible thing
Speaker 2: that happened in the neighborhood of the gang or organization
Speaker 2: that we were part of. But I didn't give it
Speaker 2: a second thought to think who might have had any
Speaker 2: involvement in it. I figured, oh, they're going to get
Speaker 2: somebody for this, But little that I know they would
Speaker 2: eventually try to point the finger at me.
Speaker 1: So yeah, the investigation ends up focusing on gang rivalries,
Speaker 1: and even though eyewitness accounts identified entirely different people, the
Speaker 1: investigation then starts focusing on the two six gang that
Speaker 1: you're affiliated with, but just on the fringe. When did
Speaker 1: you find out that you were on the investigators radar?
Speaker 2: To my knowledge, my name doesn't really come up until
Speaker 2: the month of October. I believe that's when they finally
Speaker 2: start saying, well, okay, because they thought they was involved.
Speaker 2: They said, okay, well this other guy has to be
Speaker 2: involved as well. But it was never really founded on,
Speaker 2: like you said, on any eyewitness identifying me. It was
Speaker 2: just they now said, okay, if David's involved, this other
Speaker 2: guy got to be involved as well.
Speaker 1: So they just bundled you with your cousin, and neither
Speaker 1: of you were there, correct, So how were you arrested?
Speaker 1: How did that go down? Where were you? Who were
Speaker 1: you with?
Speaker 2: So I got arrested on October fifteenth, once again, I
Speaker 2: was in Westchester with my girlfriend, and ironically my sister
Speaker 2: was there as well, the oldest sister that would be
Speaker 2: later be my alibi. She was there. She made another
Speaker 2: homemade meal, I remember it. It was spaghetti with homemade
Speaker 2: meatballs and Italian sausage and garlic bread. And I was
Speaker 2: just beginning my plate to take it upstairs with me
Speaker 2: and my girl to share, when we hear the knock
Speaker 2: on the door, boom boom, and then there's a pounding
Speaker 2: on the back door, boom boom. I'm like, what's going on?
Speaker 2: So we look out the window and we see all
Speaker 2: these lights and policemen running up to the thing. We
Speaker 2: open the door and they come in and cut us up.
Speaker 2: They just said they had a warrant. They didn't say
Speaker 2: it was an unrest warrant. They didn't say whether it
Speaker 2: was a search warrant. Yeah, So they went about the
Speaker 2: house searching it, obviously not coming up with anything, and
Speaker 2: they took us into custody and when I get to
Speaker 2: the police station is when I first learned that. They
Speaker 2: tell me you're under arrest for two murders and a
Speaker 2: temp murder and this is a capital of fence and
Speaker 2: you better say something now if you want to save yourself.
Speaker 1: Well, Jimmy, what was going through your mind. You must
Speaker 1: have thought, all right, stupid mistake, It's going to be corrected.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what's going through my mind. I'm like, this
Speaker 2: can't be right, you know. Fortunately, there was an attorney
Speaker 2: that was at the police station who would later become
Speaker 2: my trial attorney, and he came and spoke with me
Speaker 2: and said, they said they have witnesses, and he said,
Speaker 2: I don't have any of the paperwork. He asked me,
Speaker 2: point blank, did you have anything to do with it?
Speaker 2: Of course I told him no, and he's like, well,
Speaker 2: don't worry about it. If you didn't have nothing to
Speaker 2: do with it, it'll work out. Just don't say anything. And
Speaker 2: that was it. So in my mind, I'm thinking, Okay,
Speaker 2: it's a mistake, and you know, they could be cleared
Speaker 2: up fairly soon and I'll be out. But that wasn't
Speaker 2: the case.
Speaker 1: From that moment on, you're held until your trial.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was held with no bond in the Cook
Speaker 2: County Jail. I was there for probably a year before
Speaker 2: I went to trial. I went to September of nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty two to trial. But leading up to it, I
Speaker 2: would eventually find out some pieces of like that they
Speaker 2: only had one witness who would be best termed an
Speaker 2: accomplished witness. He was a young teenager as well, and
Speaker 2: he made statement that David and I were supposedly conspiring
Speaker 2: prior to the shooting with a group of other individuals
Speaker 2: to attack a rival group. That David gets a phone
Speaker 2: call and David then provides the key to a custom
Speaker 2: blue van and gives us weapons, and we go out
Speaker 2: to the park and me and another co defendant supposedly
Speaker 2: walk down the gangway and shoot at the people. And
Speaker 2: you know there was three victims as a result.
Speaker 1: But that seems like a very convenient theory, Well it.
Speaker 2: Was for them. Yeah, I didn't know that they had
Speaker 2: rounded up Again to the Colaster trial, that they rounded
Speaker 2: up twenty five people with the rest warrants, and that
Speaker 2: out of the twenty five, at least maybe ten or
Speaker 2: maybe twelve of them made statements which collaborated in some
Speaker 2: sense what this individual was saying. But you have to
Speaker 2: bear in mind that there was probably only out of
Speaker 2: the twenty five people, maybe five were over the age
Speaker 2: of seventeen. Every somebody else was fifteen and sixteen year olds.
Speaker 2: And I was really mad that, you know, these individuals
Speaker 2: who were supposed to be part of a group that
Speaker 2: I was involved in, would break down and make this
Speaker 2: false narrative. And so my reaction was as a young
Speaker 2: man that these guys are punks, they're chumps, they're snitches.
Speaker 2: But as I became more mature and I was doing
Speaker 2: my studies, I realized that they were just as much
Speaker 2: victims and or even more so than anyone else other
Speaker 2: than those that lost their lives and the other that
Speaker 2: got shot. Because they were held for three days. Imagine
Speaker 2: you a fifteen year old held three days in custody.
Speaker 2: Some of them urinated on themselves, being choked, getting nothing
Speaker 2: to eat, denied water, I mean, the sleep deprivation. I
Speaker 2: had to look at it, and putting myself in their shoes,
Speaker 2: I probably would have broke down and said anything they
Speaker 2: wanted me to say at that point. So, you know,
Speaker 2: the police officers, law enforcement have techniques that they could
Speaker 2: make a grown man who was innocent telling himself so
Speaker 2: let alone at juveniles. So that started to make sense
Speaker 2: to me as in the following years after my conviction,
Speaker 2: what really was going on?
Speaker 1: I'm trying just to get my mindset wrapped around your
Speaker 1: living your life, have a steady job, have a steady girlfriend,
Speaker 1: have a baby on the way. You're twenty years old
Speaker 1: and your life is just interrupted, taken away from you.
Speaker 1: What was that year like for you being held in
Speaker 1: the Cook County jail.
Speaker 2: I mean, it was probably one of the worst and
Speaker 2: hardest years of my life because my girlfriend would eventually
Speaker 2: lose the baby. She had a miscarriage. It was due
Speaker 2: to squarely to stress. She wasn't eating right because she's
Speaker 2: worried about me. I'm locked up. My car gets repossessed.
Speaker 2: You know, expensive rims on my car. I had a
Speaker 2: nice sound system. When they repossess it, it's not like
Speaker 2: they're going to give it back. They take all that
Speaker 2: with it. So I lost that. I was upset with that.
Speaker 1: But are you in contact at all with your cousin
Speaker 1: David at this point? Is he being held at the
Speaker 1: same facility.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with him for the most part. For I
Speaker 2: would say at least half of that time or maybe
Speaker 2: seven months we were held together. There was periods where
Speaker 2: we would be split up. You know, that's how the
Speaker 2: jail is. Oftentimes you're moving to another section of the
Speaker 2: jail and they don't really give you any reasons why.
Speaker 2: It's just it's disruptive. The jail is not nice. It's
Speaker 2: super violent, and you're going to get in fights. It's
Speaker 2: just part of what's going on there. And we're packed
Speaker 2: in there. There was overcrowding problem. It was people sleeping
Speaker 2: on the floor in the dayroom. So you got this
Speaker 2: group of people and you don't have so much phone times.
Speaker 2: It was always fights over the phone if nothing else.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that in TV, what show you're gonna watch,
Speaker 2: what channel you're gonna watch on TV? I would always
Speaker 2: wind up be in a fight.
Speaker 1: So in terms of you and David, your mindset heading
Speaker 1: into that trial, how would you categorize the trial in general?
Speaker 1: And were you at all confident?
Speaker 2: I didn't know much about the law, the legal system,
Speaker 2: its process, and so my attorney puts on an alibi defense,
Speaker 2: and I told you, the only evidence that really comes
Speaker 2: up that indicates either David or I is this. So
Speaker 2: called accomplice witness, and he had implicated two people in
Speaker 2: this conspiracy as being part of this meeting that led
Speaker 2: up to the shooting. One was in the hospital in
Speaker 2: a coma told state after being hit by a car.
Speaker 2: So he's in Mother Cabringing Hospital on the West Side
Speaker 2: in a coma. Mind you, this guy testifies before the
Speaker 2: grand jury that he's evolved with the case. The second
Speaker 2: individual was in juvenile custody and he had to plicase
Speaker 2: him as well. So this individual locked up ten days
Speaker 2: before this crime, maybe even longer. And I'm thinking, Okay,
Speaker 2: we're showing that he clearly lied before the grand jury.
Speaker 2: And there's another fact. The accomplished witness says that David
Speaker 2: owned a blue Custom van. No Blue Custom band was
Speaker 2: ever recovered. They never showed David owned one. Now one
Speaker 2: person says he owns this band, that he ever had
Speaker 2: a van, There's no weapons ever recovered. And then they
Speaker 2: said there's a phone call that happens from home running
Speaker 2: pizza to David's house in Westchester slightly probably a half
Speaker 2: hour before the shooting happens, supposedly from two young women
Speaker 2: who say that they alert David that there's a rival
Speaker 2: group in there. Well day subpoena the Illinois Bell telephone records,
Speaker 2: which showed no phone call was made from Home Run
Speaker 2: in that entire night to David's house. So again, these
Speaker 2: things I'm hearing during trial, and I'm thinking, oh, well,
Speaker 2: there's no way they're going to find me guilty if
Speaker 2: they're hearing that. And so I'm thinking in my mind,
Speaker 2: as my lawyer told me, you're going to beat this case.
Speaker 2: You're going home whenever the jury comes back. There's no
Speaker 2: way they're going to find you guilty. So I'm thinking, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm going home.
Speaker 1: Because you have multiple witnesses who attest your alibi and
Speaker 1: innocence being told by your defense that you should be confident.
Speaker 1: Take me to the moment that the jury announces their verdict.
Speaker 2: It was maybe close to nine and a half hours
Speaker 2: on a period of two days, the first evening into
Speaker 2: the next day that the jury is deliberating, and they
Speaker 2: send a note down and tell the judge that they're
Speaker 2: struggling to come up with a verdict and they think
Speaker 2: that they might be a hung jury because they cannot
Speaker 2: come to a unanimous decision on this case. And so
Speaker 2: my lawyer said, well, that's a good thing. That means
Speaker 2: they're struggling. Well, the judge just tells the jury go back.
Speaker 2: He wouldn't accept them, saying that they were hung. About
Speaker 2: a half hour later, they come in guilty of all charges.
Speaker 2: So when I hear that verdict, when you know you
Speaker 2: got to stand up to hear it, the reaction was
Speaker 2: you could hear of some gasp. The state's attorneys were jubilant.
Speaker 2: They were high five in each other, and I'm looking
Speaker 2: at them. Then I turn around to look at my
Speaker 2: family and just see them all breaking down in tears.
Speaker 2: To see my father, who was the rock, the foundation
Speaker 2: of our family, broken down crying. My sister's crying, my
Speaker 2: girlfriend crying, It made me furious. I looked at my attorney.
Speaker 2: I said, I thought you said we're going to beat this.
Speaker 2: What happened? I looked at the judge, I looked at
Speaker 2: the jury, looked them in the eye, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: how could this happen? How could you come up with
Speaker 2: a guilty verdict based on such flimsy evidence. So when
Speaker 2: I do talk to my lawyer once again in the bullpen,
Speaker 2: he comes to see me. He's seeing the how upset
Speaker 2: I was, and he was like, no, you got to
Speaker 2: hang in there. You gotta be strong. I said, it's
Speaker 2: easy for you to say, and I said, so, what
Speaker 2: are we looking at? And he's telling me that, well, unfortunately,
Speaker 2: the laws in Illinois are that if you're found guilt
Speaker 2: you have two or more murders, you got to mandatorily
Speaker 2: get natural life. And I'm like, so what does that mean.
Speaker 2: He's like, it means what it means. And I'm like really,
Speaker 2: and he said, no, don't worry, We're going to go
Speaker 2: on appeal. We're going to do the appeal. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of things they're done wrong.
Speaker 1: So months turned to years turned to decades. What was
Speaker 1: the biggest hurdle for you transitioning to life in prison.
Speaker 2: The most difficult thing is being away from family, hearing
Speaker 2: the family milestones, graduations, baptisms, communions, weddings. I wasn't there
Speaker 2: to see people have their you know, the birth of
Speaker 2: a child that's such a celebration, and so many families
Speaker 2: when a new life comes in there and I'm not there,
Speaker 2: it was difficult for me to deal with. And then
Speaker 2: of course trying to maintain a relationship that certainly very hard.
Speaker 2: They got to come visit, you got to make phone calls,
Speaker 2: et cetera, and so forth.
Speaker 1: Well, there are so many layers to that onion, and
Speaker 1: also in terms of you know, you're missing those events
Speaker 1: with your family, but your family is missing them with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I would always want to put on
Speaker 2: the strong front. I'm okay, don't worry about me, you know.
Speaker 2: And as I started studying the law, I was able
Speaker 2: to articulate to them some of the things that were wrong. Hey,
Speaker 2: we listen, my attorney didn't do this, or the prosecution
Speaker 2: did this. And so when I was able to do that,
Speaker 2: I guess they would see the hope emanating from me,
Speaker 2: and so it would make them feel a little bit
Speaker 2: more at ease. But there was times it wasn't easy.
Speaker 2: Prisons in the eighties and early nineties was in Illinois
Speaker 2: were particularly violent. State Bill was very violent. I mean
Speaker 2: murders occurring there. There was a lot of things that,
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of stabbings, a lot of assaults.
Speaker 1: That's a question that I have for you because even
Speaker 1: though your affiliation with a gang in ended up getting
Speaker 1: you on the radar of the police in a way,
Speaker 1: did that affiliation protect you at all? Once you were
Speaker 1: in the inside.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you had to be. I was definitely affiliated with
Speaker 2: the gangs in there. But the downside of that is
Speaker 2: that when other individuals would do, you know, do things like,
Speaker 2: for example, somebody would gamble and then not be able
Speaker 2: to pay. Now this individual is going to get into
Speaker 2: a fighter. I have problems with another group, another person
Speaker 2: from another group, which then involves everybody, and now here
Speaker 2: it is we're fighting in there over somebody who should
Speaker 2: have never been gambling because he didn't have the money
Speaker 2: to pay in the first place. At some point in
Speaker 2: the mid nineties, I said, this isn't getting me anywhere.
Speaker 2: You know, I was smart enough to know that this
Speaker 2: behavior is viewed as a negative, and I didn't want
Speaker 2: to be in that light. And so I'm no longer.
Speaker 2: I don't want to be a part of it, no
Speaker 2: long no more. I'm sure people looked at me like
Speaker 2: he's flaking out, he's he can't handle it, But I
Speaker 2: didn't care. I think that was one of the best
Speaker 2: choices in my life. Life. That happened around ninety six.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean, well.
Speaker 1: You know what, it's maturity too, But you were doing
Speaker 1: what you needed to do to survive through your younger twenties.
Speaker 1: How long did you and your girlfriends stay together?
Speaker 2: We were probably together for the first ten years of
Speaker 2: my incarceration, and in retrospect, I look at it. We're
Speaker 2: arguing about really simple things like how come you to
Speaker 2: pick up my phone call? Where were you at? You know,
Speaker 2: Accusations that she might be cheating on me and those
Speaker 2: type of things eventually deteriorated us and she wound up
Speaker 2: having a relationship with someone else. But she would period
Speaker 2: I'm in and out of my life over my incarceration,
Speaker 2: and in the end for the last like you know,
Speaker 2: seven years, I would say she was there for me.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it makes it easier to have a love
Speaker 2: interest in prison, knowing that somebody cares about you. I
Speaker 2: never really doubted the fact that she didn't have feelings
Speaker 2: for me or love me.
Speaker 1: It's hard to maintain a relationship exactly.
Speaker 2: The physical absence is is hard.
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, you began spending a chunk of your
Speaker 1: time in the law library. Well.
Speaker 2: As I became more and more proficient in the tenants
Speaker 2: and the operation of the law procedures, etc. I began
Speaker 2: to have success winning particularly at first, just sensed reductions
Speaker 2: for a lot of individuals, and eventually I won some
Speaker 2: new trials. I began to get more new trials, more
Speaker 2: sentence reductions, and so I was also doing civil complaints.
Speaker 2: Guys would eventually went on that.
Speaker 1: So you became what they call a jail house lawyer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I never did particularly like that term. I like
Speaker 2: to call myself a prisoner advocate, but yeah, that's definitely
Speaker 2: what that was termed.
Speaker 1: But I think that's so admirable. Jimmy, what was the
Speaker 1: turning point for you? Because I can't imagine the anger
Speaker 1: and the frustration your life's been taken away from you
Speaker 1: in decades. At this point, where did you turn that
Speaker 1: into I'm going to figure out enough to help not
Speaker 1: only myself, but to help other people.
Speaker 2: My thought process was this that if I could be
Speaker 2: proficient or do adequate work for other individuals, it would
Speaker 2: just make me a better litigator and I could hone
Speaker 2: my skills that way work it through others. Again, looking back,
Speaker 2: my early attempts was by trial and error, and I'm
Speaker 2: a bit of a perfectionist, I will admit that, and
Speaker 2: so I said I could do this, but I always
Speaker 2: kept education at the forefront. I was always involved in
Speaker 2: some type of classes or some type of program, and
Speaker 2: a lot of it. Sometimes with self taught. I would
Speaker 2: just bother to use the materials there with the law library.
Speaker 1: So now we're getting to the point where you crossed
Speaker 1: paths with our other wonderful esteemed guest, Robert. We've talked
Speaker 1: about this. I'm not going to dive too heavily into
Speaker 1: the specifics, but in a nutshell, you and a co
Speaker 1: defendant were convicted in nineteen ninety five of a double
Speaker 1: homicide the year before, and at the time you were
Speaker 1: a young father, working long hours and attending night school,
Speaker 1: and when you were arrested you had no previous convictions.
Speaker 1: You were twenty when you were convicted, which is something
Speaker 1: that you two gentlemen share in common. And the case
Speaker 1: against you rested on eyewitness reports obtained by a rather
Speaker 1: notorious now retired Chicago police detective named Rinaldo Guervera. He's
Speaker 1: since come under fire over allegations he coerced witnesses and
Speaker 1: framed innocent people in dozens of other investigations. But you
Speaker 1: two are in prison. You're both wrongfully convicted. Take me
Speaker 1: to the first moment your paths crossed, and Robert, why
Speaker 1: don't you tell me about meeting mister Soto for the
Speaker 1: first time.
Speaker 3: Jimmy Soto. I heard of him. You know, his name
Speaker 3: is under like a legend in prison. Basically everybody know
Speaker 3: who he was. Everybody knows all the work he did
Speaker 3: and how he helped a lot of people. So I
Speaker 3: knew of him before I ever met him. So he
Speaker 3: was in state Ville, he didn't getting tramped to Minar.
Speaker 3: When he got to Thenar, you know, believe or not,
Speaker 3: everybody was like static because this guy who helped a
Speaker 3: lot of people is now in Minar. So everybody wanted
Speaker 3: to reach out to him, contact him some type of
Speaker 3: way to get his assistance something, because he a type
Speaker 3: of person. You know, his reputation receives him as far
Speaker 3: as he's an up, upstanding guy.
Speaker 1: So you arrived at Minard with a fan club in place.
Speaker 3: Yes he did. He's really shy about that, I guess,
Speaker 3: but this is who he is, This is reputation.
Speaker 1: Then do you remember the first time you met him.
Speaker 3: Yes, I was in the same set house as he
Speaker 3: was South Flowers in Menar. He was on two, I
Speaker 3: was on four, and I think his seat he was
Speaker 3: in the going home or something.
Speaker 2: Like that, Yeah he got paro.
Speaker 3: Yeah he got parole. And he was looking for a
Speaker 3: lly and one of the gadded workers asked me, would
Speaker 3: you like to be Jimmy Soler SELLI. I was like, hell, yeah,
Speaker 3: why wouldn't that be? So they end up moving me
Speaker 3: to his cell at the time he was in the yard.
Speaker 3: So I'm gonna sell by myself. I got my property
Speaker 3: in there, I got situated, and when he came in
Speaker 3: to cell, I went to induce myself. My name is
Speaker 3: you know, Berta Amovar. He like, I know who you are? Ready?
Speaker 3: Like how you know me already? How the hell you
Speaker 3: know who I am? Said? I know your uncle. I
Speaker 3: was alloted to uncle in state Ville and he teld
Speaker 3: me everything about your case, everything by you, and I
Speaker 3: was like, whoa. I was surprised.
Speaker 1: I loved the nicknamed Sally for sale mat. It's very
Speaker 1: much an Illinois thing too. I've never met anybody who
Speaker 1: spent time in Illinois. He didn't use Sally. But how
Speaker 1: does that impact on a day to day if you've
Speaker 1: got a good sale mate or a bad cellmate, Because
Speaker 1: just describe the space that you two were, Oh.
Speaker 3: My god, to sell, Like what how big was. It
Speaker 3: was a spall self six by nine, six by nine,
Speaker 3: bumpits and sinking to in the back of the room,
Speaker 3: real small compact cell. And as far as Sally's, it
Speaker 3: make a big difference. You got a good study or
Speaker 3: a bad seting, it can you know, it can make
Speaker 3: your time hard or easy. And so we do get
Speaker 3: a good seting. You want to keep them far long
Speaker 3: as as you can.
Speaker 1: So you guys were seal mates for four years?
Speaker 3: About four three years?
Speaker 1: Yeah, more like all right, so what made you guys
Speaker 1: good sale mates?
Speaker 3: We just jailed real quickly. I mean, so you walk
Speaker 3: in the cell. You you could tell you right away
Speaker 3: by the first couple of seconds is you two will
Speaker 3: get along with that right there and then. And we
Speaker 3: just we never had no arguments, We never had no disagreement.
Speaker 3: We just jail, We cooked together, we ate together. We
Speaker 3: had common ground as far as our cases go. Look
Speaker 3: at them like a big brother like our father. For
Speaker 3: I mean, he showed me and taught me a little
Speaker 3: about the law and just the case we did separated.
Speaker 3: He basically taught me what I wrote that note, so
Speaker 3: what I need to do just to case get separated.
Speaker 3: And that's way I know what to do with my
Speaker 3: with my legal stuff. He became family, you know, because
Speaker 3: being at cell like twenty three to one most of
Speaker 3: the time, you know, the cell is so small. You
Speaker 3: get you know, there's nothing to do buty top and
Speaker 3: you know each other backgrounds, family stuff. So it got
Speaker 3: real personal. He probably know me better than my own family.
Speaker 3: To be honest with.
Speaker 1: You, I can imagine that any bad character trait the
Speaker 1: other person has is like magnified, you know, put on
Speaker 1: volume ten. Absolutely, so neither one of you had annoying
Speaker 1: habits that bothered the other one.
Speaker 2: Come on, I mean came in. He didn't have a
Speaker 2: lot of hair on his face, but he would take
Speaker 2: a long time to shave. In fact, he probably won't
Speaker 2: admit this, but one of the things I did do
Speaker 2: was Robert got locked up fairly young too, and I
Speaker 2: would later learn that his father wasn't in his life
Speaker 2: when he came into Purberty. When his hair is coming in,
Speaker 2: so Robert was shaving against the grain, and I would
Speaker 2: tell him, you got to go with the grain in
Speaker 2: order not to have irritation, because sometimes he would have it.
Speaker 2: Roberts has very sensitive skin, and so I would tell
Speaker 2: him you got to go with it, so, you know,
Speaker 2: to show him how to shave.
Speaker 1: I love that you taught him how to shave correctly.
Speaker 2: No more or the right way to She knew how
Speaker 2: to shave right.
Speaker 1: Wing and Robert, Jimmy didn't do anything that that ever
Speaker 1: got on your nerves.
Speaker 2: I mean it was now and then he would play
Speaker 2: some music a bit loud when I was doing legal work,
Speaker 2: but I would just with my own headphones on the
Speaker 2: list to my own music, you know. I mean, there
Speaker 2: was ways in which we could avoid being in the
Speaker 2: each other's space. We did eventually get separated, and I
Speaker 2: would eventually wind up going to another unit, North one
Speaker 2: and he remained in the South house.
Speaker 3: But due at the time though he was able to
Speaker 3: still stay able to communicate with Yeah. Yes, and the
Speaker 3: way he did that we were kites and Carrie started
Speaker 3: just like letters basically keep him up today, what's going
Speaker 3: on with my family? Was going on my case and
Speaker 3: vice versa or sometimes and we meet up at church
Speaker 3: and we talk about certain things and stuff like that
Speaker 3: at church.
Speaker 1: So you guys, it very much sounds like Jimmy, you
Speaker 1: took Robert under your way.
Speaker 2: Yes he did, well, yeah, I mean, but it was reciprocal.
Speaker 2: It wasn't all that stad. He would look out for me,
Speaker 2: make sure I was straight. You need anything, If you
Speaker 2: need something, let me know, you know. So there was
Speaker 2: times that one unit might go on lockdown. The other
Speaker 2: wooden man, you know, send me some summer sausages and
Speaker 2: send me this. He would gladly send it. Tuna. I
Speaker 2: love tuna, so he would send me tune.
Speaker 3: It's a big was the same way.
Speaker 2: If he needed something, I would look out for him.
Speaker 3: But not just that. Jimmy fortunately be a cross incrosserted
Speaker 3: for solon that he knows a lot of people, he
Speaker 3: got all connections to as far as politics and stuff
Speaker 3: like that. He can't taught me the politics game. In prison,
Speaker 3: you know, have to govern around things also, And like I,
Speaker 3: we usual to get what onions, tomatoes, you know, wesed
Speaker 3: to buy them off the gay green peppers. You know,
Speaker 3: ice cream ice cream, so you get ice cream, you know.
Speaker 1: So there were ways you could maneuver better, better food choices.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been locked up longer. So going to Minard,
Speaker 2: I knew a lot of individuals that were down there already.
Speaker 2: I had don't legal work for some of them. They
Speaker 2: were so glad to see me. They wanted to send
Speaker 2: me stuff. I would never tell somebody, give me, you know,
Speaker 2: expert doing work, why you know you get it? You
Speaker 2: know this for that, but they would gladly say the
Speaker 2: same thing. Robert would say, are you okay? So there
Speaker 2: was a lot of people would often ask to be
Speaker 2: you need something. I'm over in the kitchen. I need
Speaker 2: someone over here when I get some ice cream mode.
Speaker 1: So that kind of support must be so important just
Speaker 1: in terms of your emotional and mental state.
Speaker 3: Mental state.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but how did you guys? Do you remember any time,
Speaker 1: particularly for the one another, where you guys hit a
Speaker 1: tough patch where you showed up for the other person.
Speaker 2: For him, I understood, you know, he was away from
Speaker 2: his daughter, so she was going up, or she would
Speaker 2: the family would set a visit and were able to come,
Speaker 2: and vice versa. My family would set a visit, they
Speaker 2: wouldn't come, so we would pick each other up. You
Speaker 2: are right, or you know, we'd make a special meal,
Speaker 2: or he did most of the cooking, to be honest,
Speaker 2: because I'm not a very good chef. But yeah, he
Speaker 2: made a good piece of puff. I'll tell you that
Speaker 2: I caught the hot pockets. Yeah, well it's a piece
Speaker 2: of puff. But anyway, No, the thing is that, you know,
Speaker 2: if you're really in there with somebody like this in
Speaker 2: a small space, you could pick up on the energies
Speaker 2: and sometimes just not talking to somebody isn't enough. Just
Speaker 2: give them their space because they're in their thoughts. And
Speaker 2: I would do that or he would do that for me,
Speaker 2: and we would know not to bother the other person.
Speaker 2: So that type of sense makes it that much more.
Speaker 3: Companions also just also for like the birthdays, Christmas and
Speaker 3: stuff like that because we are so far. The minar
Speaker 3: is like six to eight hours for the city, so
Speaker 3: to get visits and something that is of your heart.
Speaker 3: My fa I didn't see my fan for a while.
Speaker 3: You know, they come for first to once every three months,
Speaker 3: once every six months, once a year. They went so
Speaker 3: once every three years. Then it's just you know, away again.
Speaker 1: It's that passing of time. And so so you know, Robert,
Speaker 1: you were in there for over two decades and then
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen life changed for you big time. You're
Speaker 1: listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pachecko. You can
Speaker 1: listen to this and all the Lava for Good Podcasts
Speaker 1: one week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava
Speaker 1: for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. So when you found
Speaker 1: out you were getting out, how did you tell Jimmy?
Speaker 1: Do you remember?
Speaker 3: Well? I was a menar for I think about twenty
Speaker 3: one years, twenty one and a half years, and during
Speaker 3: my twenty first year, they asked me, I want to
Speaker 3: go to Gailsburg. I'm like, sure, no problem, why not.
Speaker 3: But the thing is, I tell him about the news
Speaker 3: that you know, there's some stuff going on in my case,
Speaker 3: but I really know what's going to happen. I was
Speaker 3: in Gailsburg for about two to three weeks and that's
Speaker 3: when I get the phone call from my lawyer talking about, man,
Speaker 3: I got some good news for you. You basically coming home
Speaker 3: tomorrow Friday. I'm like, it was just so so real.
Speaker 3: I just couldn't. I was just shocked, you know, because
Speaker 3: you think about this day, you dream about that day,
Speaker 3: you just always fantasy about it, but when it do come,
Speaker 3: you just like, is it really happening? Is it a dream?
Speaker 3: I was ac static coming home, of course, being reunited
Speaker 3: with my daughter and my family, you know.
Speaker 1: So Robert take me to after you get out, how
Speaker 1: does your friendship change, how do you continue staying in touch?
Speaker 1: And do you have almost survivors guilt? Do you feel
Speaker 1: that pressure to get Jimmy out?
Speaker 3: The thing is Jimmy and I just Jimmy, but other
Speaker 3: friends I made with in prison, they become family. You know.
Speaker 3: I didn't feel with Morris, but I feel like I
Speaker 3: need to do something to tup the guys out any
Speaker 3: way I can. So basically through you know, I'm going
Speaker 3: to courts supporting the other guys, showing my support my
Speaker 3: lawyer Jennifer Byji, who also know other lawyers. Eventually, you know,
Speaker 3: I know these other lawyers basically networking and like I
Speaker 3: tried to help other guys when I can so far
Speaker 3: as like with Jimmy, Jimmy asked me, do I know
Speaker 3: a lawyer named Lauren. So at the time, like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I know Laurence. She's my girl. She's cool with me.
Speaker 3: We tight. He's like, man, I need you to toss her.
Speaker 3: See she cold take my case. I got you, I
Speaker 3: got you. So I ended up talking to Lauren and
Speaker 3: so Lauren, yeah, you know, and my friend Jamie, he's
Speaker 3: a good guy. They did him wrong, and I wondered
Speaker 3: if you look at his case, and she like, sure,
Speaker 3: send it to me. So I sent her at the
Speaker 3: paperwork and she reviewed it and she said, oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: she's this case. They did him wrong. Yeah, and so
Speaker 3: she started looking into it. She talked to her boss
Speaker 3: like yes, and she got into it too. So anyway
Speaker 3: back to Jimmy. Jimmy called me, asked me, you talked
Speaker 3: to Lauren. I said, yeah, I talked to Lauren man.
Speaker 3: She says she got to She's like, wait a minute.
Speaker 3: I talked to Lauren and she said you didn't talk
Speaker 3: to her. I said, what do you mean. So there's
Speaker 3: two Laurence. Yes, I didn't know.
Speaker 1: Yes, there is a Lauren at the Illinois Innocence Project,
Speaker 1: Lauren Keseberg. And then there's the Lauren that we are
Speaker 1: speaking of, who is Lauren Myers cough Mueller. And she's
Speaker 1: with the Exoneration Project at the University of Chicago Law
Speaker 1: School and she joined on Emmy's team filing a clemency petition,
Speaker 1: and from.
Speaker 3: There he basically ended again in the Dream Team.
Speaker 1: Lauren gets involved in twenty twenty and in May of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, Governor Pritzker commutes your sentence Jimmy to
Speaker 1: parole eligible. And then December fourteenth, twenty twenty three, the
Speaker 1: Cook County States Attorney's Office agreed that the charges against you, Jemmy,
Speaker 1: and your cousin David should be vacated and the charges
Speaker 1: were dismissed. Robert, what was your feeling leading up to
Speaker 1: that date?
Speaker 3: So the day before I find out that he was
Speaker 3: coming home, I was just like ecstatic, this is finding
Speaker 3: He's going to happen. After forty two years, finally Jimmy
Speaker 3: going to have his day. He helped so many other
Speaker 3: people come home, and now he's coming home. And I
Speaker 3: was in tears. I diin't gonna lie. I was just
Speaker 3: so happy for him, just running up and down that
Speaker 3: my apartment, like, yes, this is happening.
Speaker 1: So by the time Jimmy, you and David got out,
Speaker 1: you had spent forty two years.
Speaker 2: Well, no, I spent forty two years, two months, and
Speaker 2: two days.
Speaker 1: That's the longest wrong incarceration in Illinois history. If I'm
Speaker 1: not mistaken, Oh, you're right.
Speaker 2: That is. The National Registry Paston Michigan officially said we
Speaker 2: were the longest serving ax hoonneries in the Illinois State History.
Speaker 2: It's not a badge of honor. It's a title I
Speaker 2: would gladly relinquish. I would not wish that on anybody.
Speaker 2: But unfortunately, that's what it is.
Speaker 3: And this is a club were in, you know. Unfortunately,
Speaker 3: this is a club that nobody want to be in,
Speaker 3: but we are. You know.
Speaker 1: Now, I've seen the video of when you got out, Jimmy,
Speaker 1: but tell me the moment you remember catching one another's
Speaker 1: eye when you walked out.
Speaker 2: Okay, I get out from the gatehouse, which is the
Speaker 2: first entry point when you're going into Stateville Prison. So
Speaker 2: now I'm exiting it. I changed my clothes and I
Speaker 2: jump in a vehicle and one of the officers say,
Speaker 2: see that those lights down there at the end of
Speaker 2: this little road. I said yeah, he said, that's all
Speaker 2: for you. He said, the press is down there to
Speaker 2: talk to you. So we drive down there and I
Speaker 2: get out the car and I see Robert. I see
Speaker 2: Robert dressed in a camouflage outfit jacket and pants, and
Speaker 2: I see him with his glasses and he got a
Speaker 2: grin from here to ear. And so yeah, I mean
Speaker 2: the first ones I hug. Naturally is one of my
Speaker 2: other sisters, and then after that, I think Robert was
Speaker 2: the second one that came. He hugged me and they're like, man,
Speaker 2: you know, we just hugged. It was an emotional moment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we did it, you know, and food circle and
Speaker 3: I was so happy for him. Just squeeze him so tight.
Speaker 3: And now we're home. You know.
Speaker 2: It was very surreal to be on the other side
Speaker 2: of the wall with somebody that you had forged a
Speaker 2: bond of relationship with and to see that our past
Speaker 2: life's journey had crossed and now it was once again
Speaker 2: coming to cross, but in a good way where you know,
Speaker 2: I was now a free person.
Speaker 3: Free man.
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys share such a strong bond, and
Speaker 1: you have so much in common and have well over
Speaker 1: a combined sixty years spent in prison for crimes you
Speaker 1: did not commit. What does it mean to have one
Speaker 1: another in your lives in these big transitions.
Speaker 2: Well, to me, I could tell you it means a lot.
Speaker 2: Because of course, he was released years before me. He
Speaker 2: was released in twenty seventeen, and here I am, I'm
Speaker 2: released in twenty twenty three, so there's a you know,
Speaker 2: that gap. But to know that he was able to
Speaker 2: transition into quote unquote the real world before me, he
Speaker 2: already learned how to navigate it, and so he was
Speaker 2: very helpful in telling me the things I need to do,
Speaker 2: for example, going to get my state of Illinois, I
Speaker 2: d getting me used to going to drive a car again.
Speaker 3: A little bit with the phone too, But.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he helped me and Daddy and I thank him.
Speaker 2: I thank God to have him there to be able
Speaker 2: to tell me, you know, some of these things and
Speaker 2: how to navigate them myself.
Speaker 3: The thing is, though, I feel like, you know, he
Speaker 3: was able to help me with then when I was incarcerated.
Speaker 3: Now am I able to pay it for and help
Speaker 3: him out regard to how smart it is. It just
Speaker 3: feels so good to help him in any way I can.
Speaker 3: And he's my brother. I'll do anything for him. At
Speaker 3: the end of the day. That's my brother. And thank
Speaker 3: you for having me.
Speaker 2: Thank you for that's my little that's my little son.
Speaker 2: Now that's my brother.
Speaker 1: While he was incarcerated, Jimmy Soto earned a Bachelor's of
Speaker 1: Science and sociology from the Northwestern Prison Education Program. He
Speaker 1: graduated magna cum laudie and is now studying for his
Speaker 1: LSAT to go to law school. I know he is
Speaker 1: absolutely going to ace that test. He is also part
Speaker 1: of Parole Illinois, an organization fighting to bring back parole
Speaker 1: to a state that has effectively had no parole program
Speaker 1: since nineteen seventy eight. To support James in his continuing
Speaker 1: fight for justice and in his goal for earning a
Speaker 1: law degree, you can donate to his gofund me, which
Speaker 1: is linked at the end in the episode description. Thank
Speaker 1: you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco.
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the
Speaker 1: links in the episode description to see how you can help.
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm, Jeff Kempler,
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, as well as our producers Annie Chelsea,
Speaker 1: Kathleen Fink, and Jackie Pauley. This series is produced, edited,
Speaker 1: and hosted by me Lauren Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer
Speaker 1: is Kara Kornhaber. Story editing by Hannah bil research by
Speaker 1: Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound design by Nick Massetti, with
Speaker 1: additional production by Jeff Clyborne. Our theme music is by
Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all social
Speaker 1: media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 1: You can also follow me on all platforms at Lauren
Speaker 1: Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for
Speaker 1: Good podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one