WEBVTT - The ETF Graveyard 0:00:06.360 --> 0:00:08.799 Welcome to Chillians. I'm Joel Webber and I am America. 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:14.080 Bell tunis okay, Eric, it is the end of October, 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:17.440 which means we've got Halloween coming up. We have kind 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:19.360 of an it's become a bit of an annual tradition 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:22.360 non trillions, where we do the E t F Graveyard, 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:28.040 which acknowledges all the various ETFs that have closed this year. Um, 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:32.720 are you in a Halloween costume for this episode? Not 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.400 really unless I'm playing like um casual guy at his 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.960 house doing work in a polo shirt that sounds like 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:46.240 four days a year. Yeah, Psycho totally plans you're Halloween 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:50.159 costume or your kids more maybe Yeah. My oldest is 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:52.800 going to be the Grim Reaper, which a little dark, 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:55.640 but that's what he wants to be, and my youngest 0:00:55.840 --> 0:01:00.279 is Black Adam the New Rock movie. Um My guy 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:03.040 is still a little undecided. We've got this default costume 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:04.840 that he turns to every year, which is an old 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:07.480 milk carton. He like gets inside of it, it's amazing. 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:09.720 It's like made of foam or something. So we'll see 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:11.160 if he's a milk carton or if he comes up 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:13.080 with something new. But by the way. Can I just 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:16.360 tell a story. My son went to his Halloween dance 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:19.319 and the school is is a sixth through eighth grade dance, 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:23.160 and some kid walked out dressed as Patrick Bateman from 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:26.800 American Psycho, and I'm like, whose parents are letting them 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:31.040 watch that? And so the parents are immediately one of 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:33.200 the parents was like, um, the kid was like, oh 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:35.400 my god, nobody knew who I was except for one 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:37.240 other kid, and he's like, well, what are the parents 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.160 was like, that's more of a reference for our generation. Anyway, 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:45.679 that was an unusual costume for a middle schoolween dance. 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:50.920 Good moving away, Yeah, creepy and and book. I think 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:52.800 if I see that kid at that dance, I go 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:56.840 home immediately. Okay, So to walk us through the graveyard 0:01:57.520 --> 0:02:02.840 insert scary music here, we've got Katie Grenfield, who's uh 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:07.200 E t F reporter with Bloomberg News, Athanasios Seraphagus and 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:09.880 Bloomberg Intelligence, where he's an E t F analyst with 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:14.320 Eric and Todd rosen Bluth who's now with Vitafy and 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:18.519 looking forward to having him back on the program, this 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:27.640 time on trillions. E t F Graveyard, Todd, Athanasios, Katie 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:31.160 welcome back to trillions. Thank you for having me. Glad 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:35.079 to be bad, excited to be here. Okay, Athanasios, I 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:36.880 want to start with you. You've got some numbers for 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:40.480 us to tell us. Put this all in perspective. How 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:46.079 how bad is this year's graveyard? Uh, it's it's not 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.520 that bad, but I think we have to look at 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:53.799 where we're coming from. So normally, in a normal year, 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.200 it's always been about two and a half to one, 0:02:57.440 --> 0:02:59.400 meaning there's about two and a half new launches for 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:01.880 every clothe Sure, that's like the healthy chure and ratio 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.880 for the industry. It got pretty crazy after COVID, like 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:11.079 UM a couple of so we reached as highest almost seven. 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:13.320 So there were seven new e T s coming out 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:16.919 for every closure. That's the HIGHESTT far back as I've 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:19.320 ever seen. That's the highest reading that we've seen industry. 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:21.760 And I think there's a couple of things feeding into it. 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:24.160 One was there was a new rule that was passed 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:26.760 that just made it a lot easier to launch ets 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.240 for the industry, and then you know the market going up, 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.280 that was a big fueler into all these UH launches 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:36.000 coming out. And then the third thing was retail. You know, 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:39.240 after COVID, all the retail investors started jumping into the market, 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.000 all these thematic launches that were coming out. We're really 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:46.320 tailored towards this this audience. But now what's happening is 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:49.240 the closure number is starting to pick up, so that 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:51.840 seven to one ratio is starting to come back down 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.520 the earth a little bit. It's still really high by 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.360 historical standards. I think now it's about four to one, 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.720 but it's coming down quite a bit from we were before. 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.160 But what I think is really interesting is I think 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:06.720 there's about seven t s that have come to the market. 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:09.520 Since that is a lot of that's like a third 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:12.720 of the industry or so that's only coming pretty recently. 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:15.720 A lot of those are down, meaning you know, if 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:19.000 you launched in one or even this year, you're down 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.200 out performance. That's pretty rare because the market has been 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:23.520 so good for so long. But a lot of these 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:27.720 ets have just enjoyed the bowl market. So even if 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:29.720 you don't have money coming in, your assets were going up. 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:31.760 Now you're sort of faced with this new thing that 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.120 I think issuers haven't been faced with the while, is 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:36.240 that performance is down. So a lot of them are 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:40.480 facing this really significant like performance headwind that I think 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:42.920 is going to force a lot of closures in the 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:45.400 in the future. I'm not trying to be mr you know, 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:47.160 Grim Reaper here, but I think there's gonna be a 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:49.880 lot of ets that are gonna face, uh, some pretty 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.159 difficult conversations with clients, and I don't know a lot 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.080 of them are gonna be able to stay around for 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:58.000 as long as we like, Todd, what happens after that 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:01.120 conversation with the clients? What what is a liquidation process 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.960 of an e t F look like? Well, first, let 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:08.400 me level said ets are closing because of lack of demand. 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:11.560 So while I hear what ath Nacios is saying and 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:13.800 it's a tough conversation, there aren't that many of these 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.680 tough conversations that are happening if if there were enough 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:19.080 clients and that the e t F would survive even 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.160 if the fund is performing badly. So this is more 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:26.400 of an annoyance to an investor then, and to the 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.040 handful of investors that are that are in my opinion, 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.160 But what happens is the asset manager will choose to 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.640 will liquidate the fund, which means they will sell all 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:38.800 of the holdings that they have within the portfolio. If 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:42.280 they're tracking the index, and that's easier if it's one way. 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:45.159 If they're actively managed, then they probably have been paring 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:49.240 down their exposure heading in to the closure. They're gonna 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:51.680 sell meat to settle the other obligations that they have, 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:54.720 and then they're going to return the money back to shareholders. 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.880 So if you've heard that your fund is closing, the 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.040 best thing for you to probably do is sell on 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.120 your own terms instead of waiting to the last trading 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:05.680 day and then getting what are likely to be sent 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.360 on the dollar. I agree with you. I think closure 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:11.440 liquidation risk is something to think about. But it's not 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:13.720 it's it's not like you could lose your principle. I 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:15.920 think it's an important point. It's annoying is probably the 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.880 perfect word. Um. I think someone compared to a paper cut. 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:22.880 It's not like you're getting your arm chopped off. But now, okay, 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:25.680 let's um, let's get into things here. So I ran 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.719 the numbers on this year's dead ETFs. I have nearly 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:31.960 one hundred. Okay, So even though as Athodosia said, the 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:36.560 ratio has come down a little favoring the launches. There's 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.440 still almost a hundred ETF that have decided they can't 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:43.000 do it, and so, uh, just some quick numbers on these. 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.680 The average fee of it of these are sixty basis points, 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:47.880 a little expensive side, and a lot of them are 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:50.680 not that old. A lot of like ones have launched 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:52.800 in the past couple of years or closing, they're not. 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.200 It's not like a lot that are over five years old. 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:57.360 So a lot of young ones here. I think the 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:00.800 average lifespan of a dead et F overall is about 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:03.960 three three years, UM. So anyway, just some cool points 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:05.920 on that. Now, we're going to have each of the 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.800 guests on the show point out a couple. They took 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:11.680 a stroll around the graveyard and they're going to point 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:14.240 out a couple that intrigued them and they would like 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:18.559 to talk about. And first up is Katie Gretfeld. Yeah, Katie, 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:21.240 take us to your headstone. What's the first headstone you found. 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:24.440 I'm gonna start with one that's pretty emblematic of what 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:27.920 Eric was just talking about, and that is V pop. 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:32.040 It's the simplify volt pop culture disruption e t F. 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:35.080 And like Eric was saying, this is pretty young. It 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:41.840 was launched December, closed down in June of this year. 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:45.080 This called my eye because, um, what is a pop 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:49.440 culture disruption portfolio? It seems like this was mostly entertainment stocks. 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:52.840 I see Spotify in here. I also see some social 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:58.000 media names also tesla Um interesting. But it also caught 0:07:58.040 --> 0:07:59.840 my eye because we did have a k pop et 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.360 F launched this year. It hasn't done spectactulally well. That 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.720 k pop ETF is only taken in about two million. 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:10.160 But when this e t F left us v Pop 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.440 it had less than a million dollars in assets. As 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.960 you can guess, without portfolio was doing pretty pitifully. Had 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:19.560 less than a million dollars in assets, down like fifty 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:22.920 six percent year to date. I think last year it 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:26.600 felt something like ten percent. So it was definitely uh 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:30.280 riding the boom that we saw in and sort of 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:35.200 sort of these high flying names and just unfortunately lost 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.599 launched it the worst time. So that's an e t 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:41.280 F that we said goodbye to this year. Yeah, this 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:43.439 is an interesting one too. I almost picked this one 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:47.319 to Katie Um for the same reasons. I also think 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.200 Simplify put this out. It's also interesting to watch these 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.079 issuers like simplified to me. There their brand now to 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:56.720 me is of a hedge fund type company that does ETFs. 0:08:57.400 --> 0:08:59.559 This is a thematic et F almost seems like something 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:03.000 like until or Defiance would do. And I think sometimes 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:05.319 once you get branded and thought of as a company, 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:07.480 it's sometimes tough to go outside of that. But maybe 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:09.719 it's good. Maybe they're meant to be that company and 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:13.920 not work on themes. But that's another observation from that 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:16.679 is sometimes people go out of there u sort of 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:20.760 wheelhouse reputation and it a lot of times doesn't work. 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:22.480 Janics did a lot of these the ets back in 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:24.880 the day, and a lot of them clothes as well. Yeah, 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.959 I mean simplifies p fix, you know, the simplifying interest 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.520 rate hedge GTF. That's an example of a product I 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:32.480 think that came ra out around the same period of 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:36.440 time in the last couple of years, and it's it's 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.000 typical of what I think of and what the industry 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:43.160 probably now thinks of, which simplify as opposed to thematic ets. 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:47.720 It definitely doesn't fit their traditional lineup. But just some advice, 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:51.280 don't put pop in the name cup culture k pop popcorn, 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:53.679 just don't do any of that. Those are gonna those 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:56.640 are going to close. They're gonna close bold So you're 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:59.000 you're calling we're gonna be talking about K pop this 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:03.240 time next year. Yeah. I actually told Eric I haven't 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:05.959 had the headline for already it when it's gonna be 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:10.839 k flop, that's gonna that's brutal. That's pretty good. That's 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.760 pretty good. Um alright, Todd, So you you took a 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:16.719 tour of the graveyard with Tombstone. Did you find that 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:20.240 that you want to start off with? Yeah, I'd focus 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:23.400 on JP Morgan's US dividend d t F j d 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:27.560 I V is the ticker UM and for a couple 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:29.559 of reasons, this has been a record year for E 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:32.640 t F inflows tied to dividend strategies. I think we 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:35.640 I was on a prior podcast where we talked about 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.600 that likely to happen, and now has happened. We're hearing 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:42.000 from advisors that vertify that they're seeking out income alternatives 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:46.040 given a rising interest rate environment. J Dive closed with 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:50.240 about sixty million in assets, But for perspective, JP Morgan 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:54.319 has the JP Morgan Equity Premium Income jep J e 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:58.400 p I, which is a covered call income strategies owned 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.679 stocks as well as the UM aspect, and it's pulled 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:05.120 in nine and a half billion dollars this year. It's 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:07.520 now a thirteen billion dollar ETF. So you can clearly 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:11.760 see JP Morgan focusing on the covered call versions of 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:17.480 of equity income as opposed to the dividend strategy. Yeah, 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:21.280 this is uh it's surprises. JP Morgan has close to 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:26.079 ETFs UM sixty million for Indie. They probably hang around 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.160 with that money, but JP Morgan that's like half a 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:32.199 half a half a cent um, So I get this. 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.199 But it's this fund is beating the smp it's and 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.760 it's very moderately priced. The expense ratio is pretty low. 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:42.240 So UM, I guess they're just going to focus on 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.319 some of the other things that are working better as 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.760 take us to uh your scary little corner of the graveyard, 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:51.480 would you find? Sure? So the one I picked was 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.880 f U T, which is the pro shares Managed Futures 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:59.160 et F. You know, I think on the show last week, 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.480 you guys looked at ets were working this year and 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:03.160 there weren't that many, but one of the ones that 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:06.599 we're working were managed futures, and it just shows that 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:10.000 sometimes e t s closed right before like their moment, 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:12.480 and I kind of feel bad for these guys. They've 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.480 had this thing around since like two thousand sixteen and 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.720 then finally like they've been waiting every year for managed 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:20.839 futures to work, and this is like the first year 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.800 that's actually starting to work. But they've closed it in May. 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.520 So there's like this huge like seller's remorse with this closure. 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:29.160 I think it didn't have a lot of money. I 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.839 think they're tough strategies to sell. They don't work in 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.080 every environment, but this is one of the only years 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:38.079 that they're working. So that one really, uh stuck out 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:40.240 to me because you have some competitors that have come 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:41.920 in after them and been able to raise like some 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.199 pretty significant assets. So it's kind of a bummer. Like 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:47.520 you know, timing matters too. We've seen in the past 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.480 sometimes these clothes before there before the numbers called, But 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:53.080 that one really definitely stuck out to me. If they 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:55.080 if they had stuck it out just a little bit longer, 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:57.360 how much longer do you think they would have needed 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.959 to clock before you know, they could have been reser erected. Maybe, Yeah, 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:04.120 I mean a couple more months they closed than May, 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.000 so it's still earlier in the year. But I look 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:08.440 like the managed future stuff really started to take off, 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:10.679 like in the summer, so we're just talking about a 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:14.199 couple of months that they probably closed it a little 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:18.120 too soon. That and they also closed along short equity 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:21.520 e t F and ALTS, which is a combination hedge fund. 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:25.040 Alts are doing very well. They're finally having their moment. 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:28.440 Why would you close it right before it's you know, um, 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:30.360 we've seen this in the past oral I'm trying and 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.000 I'm we're still trying to find the perfect metaphor for this. 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:35.719 When an e t F closes and someone else launches it, 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.000 we call that the Lazarus list because like resurrected, but 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:43.559 like that, what do you call something that closed or 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:48.439 died right before its number came up? Like pature. I 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:52.080 guess somebody equated it to walking out of a movie 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:54.240 just before it got good or something. I don't know. 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:59.160 There's if anybody who's listening knows the metaphor that's proper 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:00.880 for this. We have a list and we're ready to 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:02.959 go with it. We just need the right one and up. Normally, 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.959 I don't lack metaphors. It's my strong spot, but I 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:09.000 can't think of one. But anyway, um, I think that's 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:11.839 a great one. And yeah, the ALPS category finally catching 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:14.800 fire and they have three E T s that are 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:16.920 not going to be around a uh you know benefit 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:20.320 from that. Okay, So Eric, you want to be including 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:22.640 in this in this lap before we before we do 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:24.520 a second lap of the graveyard. What do you find 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:27.560 on lap one that stuck out to you? Oh? Okay, 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:32.440 ready tags, this is the you even heard of this? 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:36.280 This is the trend aggregation E s G TF Okay, 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.280 So it holds a group of stocks. I think some 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.960 of the stocks in here are like Netflix, Tesla, Navidia, 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:47.440 okay whatever. One point one five cent is the fee. 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:51.160 I have to wonder like who wakes up or who 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.360 is living in in like in a cave where they 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:56.560 would think they could put something out that just holds 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:58.520 equities and they don't have a brand name at all 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:00.960 and they're going to charge that amount of money for it. 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:05.440 Not to mention, E s G is so overcrowded. There 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:09.280 is way too much supply for the demand. And when 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.880 I talk demand, I don't mean black rocks, models or 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:14.440 the surveys that say there is demand somewhere out there. 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.400 I'm talking about actual grassroots demand. So I think this 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.160 fund is going to be is part of a wave 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:22.800 of E s G closures that we're going to see. 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.520 There's a couple in the graveyard this year. UM. I 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.360 currently have a bet with Todd rosen Bluth, who's luckily 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.440 going to be able to respond to this. I said, 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.760 I basically, if not if nine T s G T 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:35.800 is closed by the end of the year, he owes 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.800 me another steak dinner. So far, I think we're at seven, 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:41.760 so he's probably gonna win this one. But it's still 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.000 like I think some people might clean up the last 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:45.400 few months of the year and I could make a 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:47.680 run for it, but tags is one that stuck out 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:51.000 to me, So I'm going to clarify. I'm going to 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:52.600 make sure we get a couple of things on the 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:55.400 record for this and hopefully it makes it into the cut. 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:57.760 The way that we do the bet is it actually 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:01.680 has to close before the end the year, and typically 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:05.240 it is four to six weeks and an announcement for it. 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.400 So by the time people are listening to this, they 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:12.040 might feel I might be already winning the bed for it. 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.280 But I'm glad you found the one of seven e 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:16.800 t F s that closed this year that you needed. 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:28.000 Let's hope twelve more for your sake. Come out, Katie, 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.800 take us on another lap of the of the graveyard, 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:34.360 and would you find on this one? Okay, so I 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:38.160 was gonna do J div as well, So Todd beat 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:40.640 me there. I will just say on J DIEV it's 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:43.240 interesting that again it feels like it was the perfect 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:45.200 moment for this e t F. It couldn't quite get there. 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:47.800 Eric made the point that it was pretty low price, 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:50.680 but it was still twelve basis points, and I mean 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:54.720 Vanguard's v I G the dividend appreciation e t F 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:58.480 is half that at six basis points. So I don't know. 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.280 It's a well covered space. I'm going to break the 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:05.119 rules on my second lap of the graveyard. As we discussed, 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:07.760 this e t F that I'm going to name hasn't 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:12.160 actually liquidated yet. It's just been announced. We're talking about 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:16.680 the Vanguard US Liquidity Factor e t F. They announced 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.879 in late September that they were going to liquidate this fund. 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:24.560 The ticker, of course is v F l q UH. 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.640 It liquidates in November. The reason I want to talk 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:29.359 about it, though, and I'm glad that I was first 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:32.720 to the punch here, is because it's Vanguard's first U 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:38.200 S E t F to be liquidated, which feels pretty monumental. 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.440 Thank you for that. Wow. And it just never really 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:47.480 caught on. It was opened what seventeen sometime around then, 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:52.640 umen it never really picked up it has. It had 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.720 what like forty million dollars in assets when they announced this, 0:17:56.920 --> 0:18:00.720 which is for Vanguard E t F pretty puny, so 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.200 it just never found its moment. I don't know, maybe 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:04.800 it'll turn into one of these e t F s 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:10.200 that closed prematurely but never got that buzz. I like 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:11.639 it because I had it. I had it on my 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:13.960 list also, Katie, I was, I guess going to follow 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.480 you and that it technically hasn't closed, but who cares. 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:19.960 It's it says it's closing, and the graveyard gets filled 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:22.960 up quickly. What's interesting is that they launched this e 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:26.000 t F Vanguard at the same time that they launched 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.879 a few other active factory tfs and those have caught on. 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.480 So you know, Vanguard US Value Factor v F v 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:36.399 A has six fifty million value has been out of 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:38.840 favor up until this year, but no one else has 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:40.960 a liquidity e t F. I think it's a it's 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:44.800 a harder term for people to get their arms around, 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:48.359 as opposed to value and momentum and quality like the 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:53.960 other more accepted factors that that other providers have. Alright, 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:55.960 todd as long as you have a microphone, once you 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:58.080 put your Halloween costumer on and give me your give 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:01.920 us your your second pick. So my second pick is 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:05.760 h j p X, which is the I Shares currency 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:09.080 heads jp X ni K four hundred. I have to 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:11.800 admit I didn't even know this et F existed, So 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:16.200 the factor's closing um is I don't I won't miss it. 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:18.280 But what's interesting is this is not you know, the 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:22.040 I Shas is not exiting the currency heads Japan market. 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.359 They have a relatively popular one h e w J 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.560 which is tied to the ms C I Index thirty 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:32.879 five million dollars. But I flagged this one because the 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:37.399 the graveyard is littered with currency heads ETFs that closed 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:41.400 too quickly, and this may be uh the last year 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.479 hopefully that we see closures in this regard because currency 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:47.520 hedging is working, so the pre existing one one that's 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:52.080 gonna survive. H e w J is outperforming the unheaged 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:55.640 version of Japan by over two thousand basis points. It's 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:59.840 it's down three percent versus down, except no one cares. 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:02.440 I know you guys have covered this on e t 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:04.440 F I Q as as well as I think perhaps 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:08.280 on trillions. People are just not putting money in too 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:10.920 currency hed gtfs. In fact, they're pulling them out of 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:13.800 currency he heads gtfs, even though this is the time 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:17.119 that it's working. So I guess goodbye or to to 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:19.480 the e t F I didn't know existed, but really 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.080 should have gotten more money than it did. There's been 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:25.920 a slew of currency hed gtfs closing because everybody lost 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:31.720 their mind because so much money went to this tiny 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:34.280 area and it blew up and everybody had to have 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:36.560 a currency hedge. And then they started doing half currency 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.119 hedge currency hedge this, that and the other, and they 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:41.320 just went way too far. It was like one of 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:45.280 those frenzies. And I that's why I think the same 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:47.879 thing will happen with e SG now that people realize, oh, 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:50.600 it doesn't always outperform, I think there'll be a culling 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.359 back of products because everybody is losing their mind a 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:56.240 little bit with supply on that. So, um, I agree. 0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:59.240 I don't even know this existed. Um, it was just 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:01.480 like think it. It just came and went, had no 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.200 money even for ey shares. They couldn't sell it. So 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:10.760 good one, thank you, Ethanazias. What do you got, um 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:14.760 trip t r y P which is this sonic shares 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:20.520 like air hotels crews altogether? I don't know. We have 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:22.639 to ask someone smarter than me, like smart than me, 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:25.480 why when you saw all the revenge spending, all the 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:28.359 travel like last year, why doesn't this thing go up 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:31.480 when the airline's ever perform? Well, I don't know, like 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:36.040