Speaker 1: Welcome to Chillians. I'm Joel Webber and I am America.
Speaker 1: Bell tunis okay, Eric, it is the end of October,
Speaker 1: which means we've got Halloween coming up. We have kind
Speaker 1: of an it's become a bit of an annual tradition
Speaker 1: non trillions, where we do the E t F Graveyard,
Speaker 1: which acknowledges all the various ETFs that have closed this year. Um,
Speaker 1: are you in a Halloween costume for this episode? Not
Speaker 1: really unless I'm playing like um casual guy at his
Speaker 1: house doing work in a polo shirt that sounds like
Speaker 1: four days a year. Yeah, Psycho totally plans you're Halloween
Speaker 1: costume or your kids more maybe Yeah. My oldest is
Speaker 1: going to be the Grim Reaper, which a little dark,
Speaker 1: but that's what he wants to be, and my youngest
Speaker 1: is Black Adam the New Rock movie. Um My guy
Speaker 1: is still a little undecided. We've got this default costume
Speaker 1: that he turns to every year, which is an old
Speaker 1: milk carton. He like gets inside of it, it's amazing.
Speaker 1: It's like made of foam or something. So we'll see
Speaker 1: if he's a milk carton or if he comes up
Speaker 1: with something new. But by the way. Can I just
Speaker 1: tell a story. My son went to his Halloween dance
Speaker 1: and the school is is a sixth through eighth grade dance,
Speaker 1: and some kid walked out dressed as Patrick Bateman from
Speaker 1: American Psycho, and I'm like, whose parents are letting them
Speaker 1: watch that? And so the parents are immediately one of
Speaker 1: the parents was like, um, the kid was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, nobody knew who I was except for one
Speaker 1: other kid, and he's like, well, what are the parents
Speaker 1: was like, that's more of a reference for our generation. Anyway,
Speaker 1: that was an unusual costume for a middle schoolween dance.
Speaker 1: Good moving away, Yeah, creepy and and book. I think
Speaker 1: if I see that kid at that dance, I go
Speaker 1: home immediately. Okay, So to walk us through the graveyard
Speaker 1: insert scary music here, we've got Katie Grenfield, who's uh
Speaker 1: E t F reporter with Bloomberg News, Athanasios Seraphagus and
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Intelligence, where he's an E t F analyst with
Speaker 1: Eric and Todd rosen Bluth who's now with Vitafy and
Speaker 1: looking forward to having him back on the program, this
Speaker 1: time on trillions. E t F Graveyard, Todd, Athanasios, Katie
Speaker 1: welcome back to trillions. Thank you for having me. Glad
Speaker 1: to be bad, excited to be here. Okay, Athanasios, I
Speaker 1: want to start with you. You've got some numbers for
Speaker 1: us to tell us. Put this all in perspective. How
Speaker 1: how bad is this year's graveyard? Uh, it's it's not
Speaker 1: that bad, but I think we have to look at
Speaker 1: where we're coming from. So normally, in a normal year,
Speaker 1: it's always been about two and a half to one,
Speaker 1: meaning there's about two and a half new launches for
Speaker 1: every clothe Sure, that's like the healthy chure and ratio
Speaker 1: for the industry. It got pretty crazy after COVID, like
Speaker 1: UM a couple of so we reached as highest almost seven.
Speaker 1: So there were seven new e T s coming out
Speaker 1: for every closure. That's the HIGHESTT far back as I've
Speaker 1: ever seen. That's the highest reading that we've seen industry.
Speaker 1: And I think there's a couple of things feeding into it.
Speaker 1: One was there was a new rule that was passed
Speaker 1: that just made it a lot easier to launch ets
Speaker 1: for the industry, and then you know the market going up,
Speaker 1: that was a big fueler into all these UH launches
Speaker 1: coming out. And then the third thing was retail. You know,
Speaker 1: after COVID, all the retail investors started jumping into the market,
Speaker 1: all these thematic launches that were coming out. We're really
Speaker 1: tailored towards this this audience. But now what's happening is
Speaker 1: the closure number is starting to pick up, so that
Speaker 1: seven to one ratio is starting to come back down
Speaker 1: the earth a little bit. It's still really high by
Speaker 1: historical standards. I think now it's about four to one,
Speaker 1: but it's coming down quite a bit from we were before.
Speaker 1: But what I think is really interesting is I think
Speaker 1: there's about seven t s that have come to the market.
Speaker 1: Since that is a lot of that's like a third
Speaker 1: of the industry or so that's only coming pretty recently.
Speaker 1: A lot of those are down, meaning you know, if
Speaker 1: you launched in one or even this year, you're down
Speaker 1: out performance. That's pretty rare because the market has been
Speaker 1: so good for so long. But a lot of these
Speaker 1: ets have just enjoyed the bowl market. So even if
Speaker 1: you don't have money coming in, your assets were going up.
Speaker 1: Now you're sort of faced with this new thing that
Speaker 1: I think issuers haven't been faced with the while, is
Speaker 1: that performance is down. So a lot of them are
Speaker 1: facing this really significant like performance headwind that I think
Speaker 1: is going to force a lot of closures in the
Speaker 1: in the future. I'm not trying to be mr you know,
Speaker 1: Grim Reaper here, but I think there's gonna be a
Speaker 1: lot of ets that are gonna face, uh, some pretty
Speaker 1: difficult conversations with clients, and I don't know a lot
Speaker 1: of them are gonna be able to stay around for
Speaker 1: as long as we like, Todd, what happens after that
Speaker 1: conversation with the clients? What what is a liquidation process
Speaker 1: of an e t F look like? Well, first, let
Speaker 1: me level said ets are closing because of lack of demand.
Speaker 1: So while I hear what ath Nacios is saying and
Speaker 1: it's a tough conversation, there aren't that many of these
Speaker 1: tough conversations that are happening if if there were enough
Speaker 1: clients and that the e t F would survive even
Speaker 1: if the fund is performing badly. So this is more
Speaker 1: of an annoyance to an investor then, and to the
Speaker 1: handful of investors that are that are in my opinion,
Speaker 1: But what happens is the asset manager will choose to
Speaker 1: will liquidate the fund, which means they will sell all
Speaker 1: of the holdings that they have within the portfolio. If
Speaker 1: they're tracking the index, and that's easier if it's one way.
Speaker 1: If they're actively managed, then they probably have been paring
Speaker 1: down their exposure heading in to the closure. They're gonna
Speaker 1: sell meat to settle the other obligations that they have,
Speaker 1: and then they're going to return the money back to shareholders.
Speaker 1: So if you've heard that your fund is closing, the
Speaker 1: best thing for you to probably do is sell on
Speaker 1: your own terms instead of waiting to the last trading
Speaker 1: day and then getting what are likely to be sent
Speaker 1: on the dollar. I agree with you. I think closure
Speaker 1: liquidation risk is something to think about. But it's not
Speaker 1: it's it's not like you could lose your principle. I
Speaker 1: think it's an important point. It's annoying is probably the
Speaker 1: perfect word. Um. I think someone compared to a paper cut.
Speaker 1: It's not like you're getting your arm chopped off. But now, okay,
Speaker 1: let's um, let's get into things here. So I ran
Speaker 1: the numbers on this year's dead ETFs. I have nearly
Speaker 1: one hundred. Okay, So even though as Athodosia said, the
Speaker 1: ratio has come down a little favoring the launches. There's
Speaker 1: still almost a hundred ETF that have decided they can't
Speaker 1: do it, and so, uh, just some quick numbers on these.
Speaker 1: The average fee of it of these are sixty basis points,
Speaker 1: a little expensive side, and a lot of them are
Speaker 1: not that old. A lot of like ones have launched
Speaker 1: in the past couple of years or closing, they're not.
Speaker 1: It's not like a lot that are over five years old.
Speaker 1: So a lot of young ones here. I think the
Speaker 1: average lifespan of a dead et F overall is about
Speaker 1: three three years, UM. So anyway, just some cool points
Speaker 1: on that. Now, we're going to have each of the
Speaker 1: guests on the show point out a couple. They took
Speaker 1: a stroll around the graveyard and they're going to point
Speaker 1: out a couple that intrigued them and they would like
Speaker 1: to talk about. And first up is Katie Gretfeld. Yeah, Katie,
Speaker 1: take us to your headstone. What's the first headstone you found.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start with one that's pretty emblematic of what
Speaker 1: Eric was just talking about, and that is V pop.
Speaker 1: It's the simplify volt pop culture disruption e t F.
Speaker 1: And like Eric was saying, this is pretty young. It
Speaker 1: was launched December, closed down in June of this year.
Speaker 1: This called my eye because, um, what is a pop
Speaker 1: culture disruption portfolio? It seems like this was mostly entertainment stocks.
Speaker 1: I see Spotify in here. I also see some social
Speaker 1: media names also tesla Um interesting. But it also caught
Speaker 1: my eye because we did have a k pop et
Speaker 1: F launched this year. It hasn't done spectactulally well. That
Speaker 1: k pop ETF is only taken in about two million.
Speaker 1: But when this e t F left us v Pop
Speaker 1: it had less than a million dollars in assets. As
Speaker 1: you can guess, without portfolio was doing pretty pitifully. Had
Speaker 1: less than a million dollars in assets, down like fifty
Speaker 1: six percent year to date. I think last year it
Speaker 1: felt something like ten percent. So it was definitely uh
Speaker 1: riding the boom that we saw in and sort of
Speaker 1: sort of these high flying names and just unfortunately lost
Speaker 1: launched it the worst time. So that's an e t
Speaker 1: F that we said goodbye to this year. Yeah, this
Speaker 1: is an interesting one too. I almost picked this one
Speaker 1: to Katie Um for the same reasons. I also think
Speaker 1: Simplify put this out. It's also interesting to watch these
Speaker 1: issuers like simplified to me. There their brand now to
Speaker 1: me is of a hedge fund type company that does ETFs.
Speaker 1: This is a thematic et F almost seems like something
Speaker 1: like until or Defiance would do. And I think sometimes
Speaker 1: once you get branded and thought of as a company,
Speaker 1: it's sometimes tough to go outside of that. But maybe
Speaker 1: it's good. Maybe they're meant to be that company and
Speaker 1: not work on themes. But that's another observation from that
Speaker 1: is sometimes people go out of there u sort of
Speaker 1: wheelhouse reputation and it a lot of times doesn't work.
Speaker 1: Janics did a lot of these the ets back in
Speaker 1: the day, and a lot of them clothes as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean simplifies p fix, you know, the simplifying interest
Speaker 1: rate hedge GTF. That's an example of a product I
Speaker 1: think that came ra out around the same period of
Speaker 1: time in the last couple of years, and it's it's
Speaker 1: typical of what I think of and what the industry
Speaker 1: probably now thinks of, which simplify as opposed to thematic ets.
Speaker 1: It definitely doesn't fit their traditional lineup. But just some advice,
Speaker 1: don't put pop in the name cup culture k pop popcorn,
Speaker 1: just don't do any of that. Those are gonna those
Speaker 1: are going to close. They're gonna close bold So you're
Speaker 1: you're calling we're gonna be talking about K pop this
Speaker 1: time next year. Yeah. I actually told Eric I haven't
Speaker 1: had the headline for already it when it's gonna be
Speaker 1: k flop, that's gonna that's brutal. That's pretty good. That's
Speaker 1: pretty good. Um alright, Todd, So you you took a
Speaker 1: tour of the graveyard with Tombstone. Did you find that
Speaker 1: that you want to start off with? Yeah, I'd focus
Speaker 1: on JP Morgan's US dividend d t F j d
Speaker 1: I V is the ticker UM and for a couple
Speaker 1: of reasons, this has been a record year for E
Speaker 1: t F inflows tied to dividend strategies. I think we
Speaker 1: I was on a prior podcast where we talked about
Speaker 1: that likely to happen, and now has happened. We're hearing
Speaker 1: from advisors that vertify that they're seeking out income alternatives
Speaker 1: given a rising interest rate environment. J Dive closed with
Speaker 1: about sixty million in assets, But for perspective, JP Morgan
Speaker 1: has the JP Morgan Equity Premium Income jep J e
Speaker 1: p I, which is a covered call income strategies owned
Speaker 1: stocks as well as the UM aspect, and it's pulled
Speaker 1: in nine and a half billion dollars this year. It's
Speaker 1: now a thirteen billion dollar ETF. So you can clearly
Speaker 1: see JP Morgan focusing on the covered call versions of
Speaker 1: of equity income as opposed to the dividend strategy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is uh it's surprises. JP Morgan has close to
Speaker 1: ETFs UM sixty million for Indie. They probably hang around
Speaker 1: with that money, but JP Morgan that's like half a
Speaker 1: half a half a cent um, So I get this.
Speaker 1: But it's this fund is beating the smp it's and
Speaker 1: it's very moderately priced. The expense ratio is pretty low.
Speaker 1: So UM, I guess they're just going to focus on
Speaker 1: some of the other things that are working better as
Speaker 1: take us to uh your scary little corner of the graveyard,
Speaker 1: would you find? Sure? So the one I picked was
Speaker 1: f U T, which is the pro shares Managed Futures
Speaker 1: et F. You know, I think on the show last week,
Speaker 1: you guys looked at ets were working this year and
Speaker 1: there weren't that many, but one of the ones that
Speaker 1: we're working were managed futures, and it just shows that
Speaker 1: sometimes e t s closed right before like their moment,
Speaker 1: and I kind of feel bad for these guys. They've
Speaker 1: had this thing around since like two thousand sixteen and
Speaker 1: then finally like they've been waiting every year for managed
Speaker 1: futures to work, and this is like the first year
Speaker 1: that's actually starting to work. But they've closed it in May.
Speaker 1: So there's like this huge like seller's remorse with this closure.
Speaker 1: I think it didn't have a lot of money. I
Speaker 1: think they're tough strategies to sell. They don't work in
Speaker 1: every environment, but this is one of the only years
Speaker 1: that they're working. So that one really, uh stuck out
Speaker 1: to me because you have some competitors that have come
Speaker 1: in after them and been able to raise like some
Speaker 1: pretty significant assets. So it's kind of a bummer. Like
Speaker 1: you know, timing matters too. We've seen in the past
Speaker 1: sometimes these clothes before there before the numbers called, But
Speaker 1: that one really definitely stuck out to me. If they
Speaker 1: if they had stuck it out just a little bit longer,
Speaker 1: how much longer do you think they would have needed
Speaker 1: to clock before you know, they could have been reser erected. Maybe, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean a couple more months they closed than May,
Speaker 1: so it's still earlier in the year. But I look
Speaker 1: like the managed future stuff really started to take off,
Speaker 1: like in the summer, so we're just talking about a
Speaker 1: couple of months that they probably closed it a little
Speaker 1: too soon. That and they also closed along short equity
Speaker 1: e t F and ALTS, which is a combination hedge fund.
Speaker 1: Alts are doing very well. They're finally having their moment.
Speaker 1: Why would you close it right before it's you know, um,
Speaker 1: we've seen this in the past oral I'm trying and
Speaker 1: I'm we're still trying to find the perfect metaphor for this.
Speaker 1: When an e t F closes and someone else launches it,
Speaker 1: we call that the Lazarus list because like resurrected, but
Speaker 1: like that, what do you call something that closed or
Speaker 1: died right before its number came up? Like pature. I
Speaker 1: guess somebody equated it to walking out of a movie
Speaker 1: just before it got good or something. I don't know.
Speaker 1: There's if anybody who's listening knows the metaphor that's proper
Speaker 1: for this. We have a list and we're ready to
Speaker 1: go with it. We just need the right one and up. Normally,
Speaker 1: I don't lack metaphors. It's my strong spot, but I
Speaker 1: can't think of one. But anyway, um, I think that's
Speaker 1: a great one. And yeah, the ALPS category finally catching
Speaker 1: fire and they have three E T s that are
Speaker 1: not going to be around a uh you know benefit
Speaker 1: from that. Okay, So Eric, you want to be including
Speaker 1: in this in this lap before we before we do
Speaker 1: a second lap of the graveyard. What do you find
Speaker 1: on lap one that stuck out to you? Oh? Okay,
Speaker 1: ready tags, this is the you even heard of this?
Speaker 1: This is the trend aggregation E s G TF Okay,
Speaker 1: So it holds a group of stocks. I think some
Speaker 1: of the stocks in here are like Netflix, Tesla, Navidia,
Speaker 1: okay whatever. One point one five cent is the fee.
Speaker 1: I have to wonder like who wakes up or who
Speaker 1: is living in in like in a cave where they
Speaker 1: would think they could put something out that just holds
Speaker 1: equities and they don't have a brand name at all
Speaker 1: and they're going to charge that amount of money for it.
Speaker 1: Not to mention, E s G is so overcrowded. There
Speaker 1: is way too much supply for the demand. And when
Speaker 1: I talk demand, I don't mean black rocks, models or
Speaker 1: the surveys that say there is demand somewhere out there.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about actual grassroots demand. So I think this
Speaker 1: fund is going to be is part of a wave
Speaker 1: of E s G closures that we're going to see.
Speaker 1: There's a couple in the graveyard this year. UM. I
Speaker 1: currently have a bet with Todd rosen Bluth, who's luckily
Speaker 1: going to be able to respond to this. I said,
Speaker 1: I basically, if not if nine T s G T
Speaker 1: is closed by the end of the year, he owes
Speaker 1: me another steak dinner. So far, I think we're at seven,
Speaker 1: so he's probably gonna win this one. But it's still
Speaker 1: like I think some people might clean up the last
Speaker 1: few months of the year and I could make a
Speaker 1: run for it, but tags is one that stuck out
Speaker 1: to me, So I'm going to clarify. I'm going to
Speaker 1: make sure we get a couple of things on the
Speaker 1: record for this and hopefully it makes it into the cut.
Speaker 1: The way that we do the bet is it actually
Speaker 1: has to close before the end the year, and typically
Speaker 1: it is four to six weeks and an announcement for it.
Speaker 1: So by the time people are listening to this, they
Speaker 1: might feel I might be already winning the bed for it.
Speaker 1: But I'm glad you found the one of seven e
Speaker 1: t F s that closed this year that you needed.
Speaker 1: Let's hope twelve more for your sake. Come out, Katie,
Speaker 1: take us on another lap of the of the graveyard,
Speaker 1: and would you find on this one? Okay, so I
Speaker 1: was gonna do J div as well, So Todd beat
Speaker 1: me there. I will just say on J DIEV it's
Speaker 1: interesting that again it feels like it was the perfect
Speaker 1: moment for this e t F. It couldn't quite get there.
Speaker 1: Eric made the point that it was pretty low price,
Speaker 1: but it was still twelve basis points, and I mean
Speaker 1: Vanguard's v I G the dividend appreciation e t F
Speaker 1: is half that at six basis points. So I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's a well covered space. I'm going to break the
Speaker 1: rules on my second lap of the graveyard. As we discussed,
Speaker 1: this e t F that I'm going to name hasn't
Speaker 1: actually liquidated yet. It's just been announced. We're talking about
Speaker 1: the Vanguard US Liquidity Factor e t F. They announced
Speaker 1: in late September that they were going to liquidate this fund.
Speaker 1: The ticker, of course is v F l q UH.
Speaker 1: It liquidates in November. The reason I want to talk
Speaker 1: about it, though, and I'm glad that I was first
Speaker 1: to the punch here, is because it's Vanguard's first U
Speaker 1: S E t F to be liquidated, which feels pretty monumental.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that. Wow. And it just never really
Speaker 1: caught on. It was opened what seventeen sometime around then,
Speaker 1: umen it never really picked up it has. It had
Speaker 1: what like forty million dollars in assets when they announced this,
Speaker 1: which is for Vanguard E t F pretty puny, so
Speaker 1: it just never found its moment. I don't know, maybe
Speaker 1: it'll turn into one of these e t F s
Speaker 1: that closed prematurely but never got that buzz. I like
Speaker 1: it because I had it. I had it on my
Speaker 1: list also, Katie, I was, I guess going to follow
Speaker 1: you and that it technically hasn't closed, but who cares.
Speaker 1: It's it says it's closing, and the graveyard gets filled
Speaker 1: up quickly. What's interesting is that they launched this e
Speaker 1: t F Vanguard at the same time that they launched
Speaker 1: a few other active factory tfs and those have caught on.
Speaker 1: So you know, Vanguard US Value Factor v F v
Speaker 1: A has six fifty million value has been out of
Speaker 1: favor up until this year, but no one else has
Speaker 1: a liquidity e t F. I think it's a it's
Speaker 1: a harder term for people to get their arms around,
Speaker 1: as opposed to value and momentum and quality like the
Speaker 1: other more accepted factors that that other providers have. Alright,
Speaker 1: todd as long as you have a microphone, once you
Speaker 1: put your Halloween costumer on and give me your give
Speaker 1: us your your second pick. So my second pick is
Speaker 1: h j p X, which is the I Shares currency
Speaker 1: heads jp X ni K four hundred. I have to
Speaker 1: admit I didn't even know this et F existed, So
Speaker 1: the factor's closing um is I don't I won't miss it.
Speaker 1: But what's interesting is this is not you know, the
Speaker 1: I Shas is not exiting the currency heads Japan market.
Speaker 1: They have a relatively popular one h e w J
Speaker 1: which is tied to the ms C I Index thirty
Speaker 1: five million dollars. But I flagged this one because the
Speaker 1: the graveyard is littered with currency heads ETFs that closed
Speaker 1: too quickly, and this may be uh the last year
Speaker 1: hopefully that we see closures in this regard because currency
Speaker 1: hedging is working, so the pre existing one one that's
Speaker 1: gonna survive. H e w J is outperforming the unheaged
Speaker 1: version of Japan by over two thousand basis points. It's
Speaker 1: it's down three percent versus down, except no one cares.
Speaker 1: I know you guys have covered this on e t
Speaker 1: F I Q as as well as I think perhaps
Speaker 1: on trillions. People are just not putting money in too
Speaker 1: currency hed gtfs. In fact, they're pulling them out of
Speaker 1: currency he heads gtfs, even though this is the time
Speaker 1: that it's working. So I guess goodbye or to to
Speaker 1: the e t F I didn't know existed, but really
Speaker 1: should have gotten more money than it did. There's been
Speaker 1: a slew of currency hed gtfs closing because everybody lost
Speaker 1: their mind because so much money went to this tiny
Speaker 1: area and it blew up and everybody had to have
Speaker 1: a currency hedge. And then they started doing half currency
Speaker 1: hedge currency hedge this, that and the other, and they
Speaker 1: just went way too far. It was like one of
Speaker 1: those frenzies. And I that's why I think the same
Speaker 1: thing will happen with e SG now that people realize, oh,
Speaker 1: it doesn't always outperform, I think there'll be a culling
Speaker 1: back of products because everybody is losing their mind a
Speaker 1: little bit with supply on that. So, um, I agree.
Speaker 1: I don't even know this existed. Um, it was just
Speaker 1: like think it. It just came and went, had no
Speaker 1: money even for ey shares. They couldn't sell it. So
Speaker 1: good one, thank you, Ethanazias. What do you got, um
Speaker 1: trip t r y P which is this sonic shares
Speaker 1: like air hotels crews altogether? I don't know. We have
Speaker 1: to ask someone smarter than me, like smart than me,
Speaker 1: why when you saw all the revenge spending, all the
Speaker 1: travel like last year, why doesn't this thing go up
Speaker 1: when the airline's ever perform? Well, I don't know, like
Speaker 1: given everything that we saw last year, all the airport issues. Anyways,
Speaker 1: this product only survived like just over a year, which
Speaker 1: I was pretty shocked. It was really short. I thought
Speaker 1: the timing was really good to take advantage of all
Speaker 1: the travel coming back. Um, and what was interesting about
Speaker 1: this one It only launched with a five dollar price handle.
Speaker 1: Many thet have only cost five dollars to buy it,
Speaker 1: which is like the lowest I've ever seen. So they
Speaker 1: were going really heavy towards retail up and I think
Speaker 1: it also just signifies that maybe with some of the
Speaker 1: other closures in here too, that maybe this is sort
Speaker 1: of the end of like the retail buying stuff, that
Speaker 1: maybe they're sort of fatigued and a little bit of
Speaker 1: tired of chasing somebody's names. But that one really stuck
Speaker 1: out to me and just how short lived it was
Speaker 1: for such a very interesting package trade together all the
Speaker 1: all the three main you know, travel things i'll i'll
Speaker 1: punched up together. I'm shocked, shocked. I was hoping trip
Speaker 1: would be like a psychedelic ETF. So maybe someone else
Speaker 1: will will take that ticker, And especially with the Y
Speaker 1: t R y P, it's like it's not your normal trip,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be a little different. It's a funky trip.
Speaker 1: So I have hoped for that ticker. Someone should lock
Speaker 1: that down. Not that those ETFs have done so great,
Speaker 1: all right, Eric, you you dug through the graveyard, would
Speaker 1: you find on the second lap? Um? Yeah? So, speaking
Speaker 1: of the like the lifespan and tragically short lifespans, the
Speaker 1: Life Goal Vacation Investment e t F Sonny and the
Speaker 1: Life Goal Children Investment E t F child c HLD.
Speaker 1: These were like a pair and they were only five
Speaker 1: months old before they threw in the towel. And this
Speaker 1: is an interesting concept. What this company was trying to
Speaker 1: do was to say, let's put the name of the
Speaker 1: thing you're trying to say for in the name, and
Speaker 1: we'll do asset allocation based on that. They's used to
Speaker 1: be called like conservative allocation, modern allocation, and aggressive allocation,
Speaker 1: like target date kind of they're like, well, let's put
Speaker 1: the thing you're actually doing, so you're saying for vacation
Speaker 1: by this um. It just flopped. And part of the
Speaker 1: reason for that, and I think this is e t
Speaker 1: F that go across asset classes and try to do
Speaker 1: that work for you, they just never catch on that much.
Speaker 1: And I think part of the reason is that advisors
Speaker 1: are such a big part of the e t F
Speaker 1: world and they want to be that. So people will
Speaker 1: either use a target date fund in the four when
Speaker 1: K plan so they don't need it, or they'll use
Speaker 1: an advisor who's going to do at asset allocation for
Speaker 1: them and talk them through these life goals. But it
Speaker 1: was an interesting experiment to try to, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: rethink how an e t F could be marketed and
Speaker 1: but yeah, tragically, short life you know, it's interesting. You
Speaker 1: know those are to the younger ones I had flagged.
Speaker 1: One of mine is I think the oldest on the list,
Speaker 1: which was the pro share short or oil and gas,
Speaker 1: which goes back to two thousand eight, which I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure that was the oldest d t F on this
Speaker 1: year's list. What do you make of that one? Eric,
Speaker 1: The ticker was d d G. Were just hold on,
Speaker 1: are you get to actually do homework on this and
Speaker 1: you have to just answer off the cuff. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm trying to give an educated answer here. Okay, Uh,
Speaker 1: look d d G down fifty since coming out. But look,
Speaker 1: if you're short oil and gas, that was a good
Speaker 1: trade for a while. But yeah, nobody cared. Interesting that
Speaker 1: something could be open that long with just no interest. Um,
Speaker 1: I think they just got I have to look, are
Speaker 1: there other leveraged oil et F that just sort of
Speaker 1: there were products that closed when we had the oils,
Speaker 1: but you know initial oil spike in you know, the
Speaker 1: if you were a short oil the last couple of years,
Speaker 1: you've Yeah, not a good time to be short. I
Speaker 1: will say, you know this one, it's almost sadder when
Speaker 1: they live a long life and they're just completely ignored.
Speaker 1: It's like um kafka or something where you know, like
Speaker 1: no friends, was in the retirement home, you didn't come
Speaker 1: visit me. It's like it's really sad. Okay, Katie. As
Speaker 1: we do this last round, I've got some other questions
Speaker 1: I want to ask. Um, So before we get your
Speaker 1: your final et, F what was your what's been your
Speaker 1: best Halloween costume ever? You know, I'm just a cat
Speaker 1: every single year, the same cat or different ones, usually
Speaker 1: the same cat because I have these specific heels that
Speaker 1: work with the costume. Um, So that's not exciting. Don't
Speaker 1: change it for a Kata was a cowgirl like in
Speaker 1: middle school. That was my go to these This isn't
Speaker 1: a good answer. I appreciate Listen, anybody who follows you
Speaker 1: on Twitter that is just so on brand though, Like yeah,
Speaker 1: and going right back to the costume year after year
Speaker 1: is interesting and you know brand cohesion and consistency is
Speaker 1: super important to that point, Eric, So thank you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like the simplify situation we just went over, you don't
Speaker 1: want to be you don't want to go too crazy
Speaker 1: away from the Katie thing. I don't want to get liquid.
Speaker 1: What's your what was your last, Uh, your last, this
Speaker 1: is a good one. This is a double header. Um.
Speaker 1: So there were two Spack E t F s that
Speaker 1: were liquidated. You have the Defiance next gen spack derived
Speaker 1: E t F and then the Morgan Creek Exos spack
Speaker 1: originated E t F. Both of them we said goodbye
Speaker 1: to them over the summer, which is really just a
Speaker 1: sign of the times SPACs were hot. Then they were
Speaker 1: extremely not hot, and um they died. So, Eric, do
Speaker 1: you expect more of these more closures of Spack E
Speaker 1: t F s. Um, there's only like a couple left. Um.
Speaker 1: And the one that the one that was the big
Speaker 1: one was spc X. That's the I forget who put
Speaker 1: that out? That one has thirty million only Yeah. Possibly, Um,
Speaker 1: SPACs were just just the tiny little window of time
Speaker 1: they sort of. I also think the f p X
Speaker 1: is the I p o E t F, and I
Speaker 1: believe that now incorporates back. So my guess is that
Speaker 1: SPACs will just sort of be part of the I
Speaker 1: p o E t F s that that are pretty legitimate.
Speaker 1: I think that's what will probably find going forward, So
Speaker 1: they'll be part of the E t F world. But
Speaker 1: I don't think spac specific e t s have a
Speaker 1: bright future. The thing I liked about the spack ETFs
Speaker 1: was that spac rhymes with a lot of things or
Speaker 1: sounds similar to a lot of other words, such as
Speaker 1: spack attack, spack splat. If you're in the business of
Speaker 1: making charts, it was something to look forward to. Okay, Todd,
Speaker 1: I want to ask you a personal question, which is
Speaker 1: what is the candy that when you were a kid
Speaker 1: you got it, and then you were like, man, I
Speaker 1: don't want this, and and then you couldn't get rid
Speaker 1: of it. Oh, I thought you're gonna tell me which one? Did?
Speaker 1: I like that? And then nobody else? That was the
Speaker 1: obvious question. So I want to ask the obvious questions.
Speaker 1: What was the thing that you got saddled with that
Speaker 1: you didn't want? I I mean, we just get Starbrusts
Speaker 1: and you have your favorite flavors behind it. So I
Speaker 1: don't like the I think there's a cherry one, like
Speaker 1: a darker red one. Of my memory is correct on it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't like that. I like the I like the
Speaker 1: lemon and the and the orange ones. Not a little
Speaker 1: while since I think I've had a Starburst. But you'd
Speaker 1: you'd have it, and then you'd unwrap it the first time,
Speaker 1: and then once you bite into a candy that you
Speaker 1: then noticed you had a dozen of those. There is
Speaker 1: a graveyard of pink or of orange and yellow starbursts
Speaker 1: in my car. I keep a packet, like a big
Speaker 1: bag of starbursts in my car so I can eat
Speaker 1: them when I drive. I hate those flavors, so then
Speaker 1: we should pair up and ride someplace. Katie Gradfield just
Speaker 1: just eats starburst while driving. That's a little weird. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the well specifically red and pink starbursts, and then I
Speaker 1: just when I get I sort through all of them
Speaker 1: and then I'm left with orange and yellow and that's
Speaker 1: when I throw out the bag. So you kind of
Speaker 1: wish that they just made like a whole block of
Speaker 1: like pink ones and then you could just buy the
Speaker 1: pink starbursts. You know. It frustrates my husband's and he's
Speaker 1: said that, like, why don't we just specifically order you
Speaker 1: this type? But I like the hunt, you know, Okay,
Speaker 1: speaking of the hunt, Todd back to you, what's your
Speaker 1: what's your last pick? Yeah? I like this. When this
Speaker 1: came out, I thought this is a funny TF that
Speaker 1: never caught on, but l O p X the direction
Speaker 1: and low price stock etf UM. This came out during
Speaker 1: when memes and and low price stocks or all the
Speaker 1: rage not for the right investment reasons, for the wrong ones,
Speaker 1: but people were piling into it. Uh. This was gonna
Speaker 1: own companies or did own companies that were priced between
Speaker 1: two and five dollars. You know, typically companies don't come
Speaker 1: out between two and five dollars. But what I liked
Speaker 1: it is it reminds me of either the movie Better
Speaker 1: Off Dead, where the kid kept yelling I want my
Speaker 1: two dollars constantly in dove on top of a car
Speaker 1: chasing after John Cusack. Let's be able to get that.
Speaker 1: Or you can think of it as two buck chuck,
Speaker 1: which I'm sure some of us drank in college. Uh,
Speaker 1: when that's all you could afford to drink. Better Off
Speaker 1: Dead UM. By the way, Todd is one of the
Speaker 1: more underrated eighties movies. UM. And this is a problem
Speaker 1: we have on E T F I Q with Matt
Speaker 1: Miller and myself. We actually throw out really high level
Speaker 1: references like Caddy Shack or Fletch or something like that.
Speaker 1: And Katie has a lot of work to do. So
Speaker 1: I would add Better Off Dead to Katie's list of movies.
Speaker 1: It's that she'll just love. I mean, there's these are
Speaker 1: great movies. It's pretty wild because after every reference, it
Speaker 1: feels like that both of you look at me expectantly
Speaker 1: and it's like, I don't I'm not gonna if I
Speaker 1: didn't get the last three, I'm not going to get
Speaker 1: this one. But you keep trying, and I like that.
Speaker 1: I know. Yeah, Matt and I are exactly the same age,
Speaker 1: so we had the same childhood pretty much, I think.
Speaker 1: But anyway, um, that's a good one, Todd. I think
Speaker 1: that the two dollar one was there was a lot
Speaker 1: of ets that were sort of born out of the pandemic,
Speaker 1: whether it was the memes thought craze, or it was
Speaker 1: the hotels and airlines, and you know, a bunch of
Speaker 1: them didn't make it. You know, the E T F
Speaker 1: world is such a lot of opportunism, and like you said,
Speaker 1: with currency hedge, people just throw a bunch of stuff
Speaker 1: at the wall and some stuff just doesn't make it.
Speaker 1: But yeah, this one, I remember tweeting about it when
Speaker 1: the filing came and I could tell the reaction Wasn't
Speaker 1: that great. Okay, Athanasios, here's my question for you, which
Speaker 1: is I asked Katie best costume she's ever been? What's
Speaker 1: the best costume you've ever seen? Uh? Well, maybe because
Speaker 1: I love this movie a lot. But I saw couple
Speaker 1: dressed up as like John Travolta and Ferman like doing
Speaker 1: the dancing scene from Pulp Fiction because I love that movie.
Speaker 1: I love that scene. Yeah, and they like and they
Speaker 1: were even like doing the twist on it was at
Speaker 1: this Halloween party and I thought they pulled it off
Speaker 1: really nicely. That's a good one, all right. Your last
Speaker 1: pick um, This one is ct Are You, which is
Speaker 1: from The Untouchable Kathy would the art transparency et F
Speaker 1: and just show you how tough it is even sometimes
Speaker 1: Kathy Wood has to close E T. S. And I
Speaker 1: think Eric probably like this one because it might fall
Speaker 1: on the E. S. G bucket maybe, And so it
Speaker 1: just shows if she can't pull off the su you know,
Speaker 1: story and selling it and her whole business is built
Speaker 1: on transparency and all that, and they're even having a
Speaker 1: difficult time selling it. So that one I felt was
Speaker 1: really really interesting. Uh when when they shut that one down,
Speaker 1: it really didn't live that long. I think this was
Speaker 1: one of the shortest ones we've seen, right. Launched in December,
Speaker 1: closed in July, seven months or so, so really really
Speaker 1: short life. Uh, but it's just more interesting that it
Speaker 1: came from our really any product shoes throwing out There
Speaker 1: was was being pretty okay on the asset gathering side,
Speaker 1: so that one definitely stuck out. You gotta be transparent
Speaker 1: about your closings too, right, So it goes two ways.
Speaker 1: I actually thought this might be a good shot at
Speaker 1: making E s G like more hot saucy and where
Speaker 1: you have a cat, because only had a hundred holdings
Speaker 1: equal weighted, so that Vault was going to be jacked up.
Speaker 1: So it was like transparency or governance. The g mostly
Speaker 1: on steroids, and it could be used a complement to Vanguard,
Speaker 1: But I didn't work, so I am looking for that.
Speaker 1: I think we'll have more hot sauce E s G
Speaker 1: coming out down the road, and I think that has
Speaker 1: more of a home than the one that tries to
Speaker 1: take over your core. All right, Eric, here's my question
Speaker 1: for you. How do you decide which candy you're going
Speaker 1: to give out every year? Oh? Good question. Um, I
Speaker 1: just basically go to Walmart or Target, and uh, the
Speaker 1: bag that's right there, and then I just picked from
Speaker 1: this year. It would totally be the low cost you
Speaker 1: do you do the low cost eats? Yeah, that's exactly
Speaker 1: who you would what you would do? You do the
Speaker 1: I mean I don't. I don't. I don't sketch out like,
Speaker 1: I don't make a blueprint and come up with the
Speaker 1: battle plan. I just go to the store whenever it's there,
Speaker 1: I grab a couple of bags. Looking. We're in Philly,
Speaker 1: like and where we live, we don't get a ton
Speaker 1: of trick or treaters and we're out. So what we
Speaker 1: do is we put the candy in a bowl and
Speaker 1: just you know, put take one and we put it
Speaker 1: out there and the kids just come and get it
Speaker 1: because we're out with the kids trick or treating. But
Speaker 1: I will say the one that I got this year,
Speaker 1: the candy that I loaded up on, which I think rules,
Speaker 1: is cookies and cream Hershey things. It's so good. It's
Speaker 1: like a little vanilla cookies and cream. But um, it's
Speaker 1: just such a you're keep those white chocolate You're gonna
Speaker 1: keep those, yeah, and kit Cat. We always get those
Speaker 1: because my older son likes it, and then we get
Speaker 1: nothing peanut because my younger son has a peanut allergy,
Speaker 1: so the snickers and all stuff we can't have. Eric,
Speaker 1: your final pick from the graveyard. Yeah, this is boring
Speaker 1: but interesting for an analyst because it's shows how tough
Speaker 1: the et F market is. I got the Nationwide Risk
Speaker 1: based US equity e t f R BUS now Nationwide
Speaker 1: closed another one. And this is a big insurance company, right,
Speaker 1: and I look, they have a hundred thirty billion in assets, right.
Speaker 1: They clearly could have put some money in this. I
Speaker 1: don't know why they did not. Why would they all
Speaker 1: meet and the manager gets together with this company says, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's launch these ETFs because at the very least we
Speaker 1: can put our own nationwide money in there. Why wouldn't
Speaker 1: they plan that at a time they clearly put about
Speaker 1: Obviously the marketplace didn't care because it's so brutal, and
Speaker 1: the own people didn't care. Why And I don't know
Speaker 1: what's going on there. Delta Shares are the same thing.
Speaker 1: Delta Shares is another big insurance company, Transamerica. They have
Speaker 1: eighty eight billion. So I think this speaks it's two things.
Speaker 1: If you're one of these big legacy managers, and you're
Speaker 1: not going to come out and be either really cheap
Speaker 1: or really shiny. You would better bring your own assets.
Speaker 1: And I'd always say, have a meeting beforehand where everybody
Speaker 1: signs off that, yeah, we're gonna put a billion dollars
Speaker 1: into this. Otherwise it's going to be embarrassing. And so
Speaker 1: I think these speak to the terror done nature of
Speaker 1: the market when you've got giant, behemoth insurance companies that
Speaker 1: can't get anything going in these things? Is that two
Speaker 1: dour of a note to end on? I fell when
Speaker 1: he said nationwide stop. It's true insurance companies are this
Speaker 1: isn't that the greatest note to end on? Um? So okay,
Speaker 1: my mine was boring. Let's see if you can spice
Speaker 1: it up. We haven't asked you to do any joll
Speaker 1: give us mine what I had A couple that UM
Speaker 1: that I that I had UM. You remarked for this
Speaker 1: moment fallen nives et FU with the ticker they couldn't
Speaker 1: spell knife, so they did in I FE. I thought
Speaker 1: that was great, like perfect Halloween, Uh shout out for
Speaker 1: for the fallen knives et F. Yeah, and people must
Speaker 1: have gotten bloody hands because I mean, I don't even
Speaker 1: know what was in that thing. You know, it's weird.
Speaker 1: I do not see the holdings, Todd, do you remember
Speaker 1: what was in this? It was just stocks that were
Speaker 1: going down but maybe had good valuations, like yeah, traps basically,
Speaker 1: or you know, trying to catch things that might bounce
Speaker 1: off it. I don't remember the exact criteria, but yeah, again,
Speaker 1: not many people got hurt in this one. Otherwise it
Speaker 1: would have it would have survived. To try to attract
Speaker 1: people with something called a falling knife is they might
Speaker 1: want to call it like, I don't catch it, you know,
Speaker 1: things that could bounce, not like hey catch this falling
Speaker 1: knife Like that just seems like a like you're gonna
Speaker 1: get hurt. But I don't know if so. Here was
Speaker 1: the other one, And here was another one that I
Speaker 1: that I had flagged, which was I think it was
Speaker 1: the best ticker on the list, shout up for eric
Speaker 1: here deep uh Diva, which was the A g F
Speaker 1: I Q hedge Dividend income E t F. But I
Speaker 1: feel like that ticker. Somebody's gonna have to come up
Speaker 1: with something good for Diva. Wait, you're calling Erica diva?
Speaker 1: Is that what I heard I'm glad you've got it
Speaker 1: way worse. It's fine. That's a that's that was good.
Speaker 1: There was there was one other one that I liked,
Speaker 1: which was the bud X the Cannabis Growth e t F.
Speaker 1: We hadn't talked about cannabis in here. I thought that
Speaker 1: was a good one. That's the one I converted, like
Speaker 1: from a mutual fund to an et F and then
Speaker 1: still closed. I think, yes, that's a good point. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was they couldn't get anything going on the mutual
Speaker 1: fund side. And then I guess not here either. But
Speaker 1: when you pass the bud and you can't and you
Speaker 1: still can't get any takers, it's you know, that's time
Speaker 1: time to time to put the roach down. It was
Speaker 1: a crowded space when this kid thing came in. And
Speaker 1: I don't know, but X reminds me of like it
Speaker 1: just seems like something that if a movie wanted to
Speaker 1: not pay Budweiser, they would have butt X as the
Speaker 1: product in the in the movie because it's like not
Speaker 1: a real like the McDowell's version. Yeah, like McDowell's Yeah,
Speaker 1: butt x um. Who has a Halloween question for Joel
Speaker 1: about candy or costumes? So Joel, what candy are you
Speaker 1: going to steal first from your child's bag when they
Speaker 1: give it to you to hold while they go to
Speaker 1: the next house. It's a great it's a great question.
Speaker 1: I don't do it the night of. I wait until
Speaker 1: like the next day, following week two weeks, and then
Speaker 1: I start to sort of like squirrel them away. But
Speaker 1: the almond Joy category big fan of the coconut, so
Speaker 1: the coconut stuff will slowly disappear. I'm guessing your son
Speaker 1: is okay with that, Like coconut is not like a
Speaker 1: big hit with kids. They've got so much candy they
Speaker 1: didn't even notice. Yeah, I know. I dip in that
Speaker 1: bag for a long time because we have our candy
Speaker 1: that wasn't taken and his, and so I call it.
Speaker 1: I call it. My wife makes fun of me cleansing
Speaker 1: the palette. I just popped something one of the hallow
Speaker 1: and candy after dinner, and I just my mouth feels better.
Speaker 1: Good questions, good answers, good costumes, good candy. Thanks for
Speaker 1: joining us, Todd, Athanacios, and Katie, thank you. Thanks for
Speaker 1: having me on Happy Halloween, everybody. Thanks for listening to trillions.
Speaker 1: Until next time, you can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal,
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever else you'd
Speaker 1: like to listen. We'd love to hear from you. We're
Speaker 1: on Twitter, I'm at Joel Webber Show. He's at Eric Fultuness.
Speaker 1: This episode of Trillions was produced by Magnus Hendrickson Bye