Speaker 1: What's up? His way up with Angela. He so excited
Speaker 1: for this conversation, for this Wealth Wednesday. I got my partner,
Speaker 1: Stacy Tisday here.
Speaker 2: Happy Wealth Wednesdays everybody, and we are balling today.
Speaker 3: We are balling big time in.
Speaker 2: An historic way and just absolutely honored to have the
Speaker 2: iconic legendary doctor C. B.
Speaker 3: Claiborne, who was Duke's first basketball player with us black
Speaker 3: Black Flah. Yeah, not the first one. And he did
Speaker 3: not come alone.
Speaker 2: He came with doctor Javier Wallace, who was an historian,
Speaker 2: professor and creator of the documentary CB Power to the Player,
Speaker 2: which we're going to be talking about today. And Fumi
Speaker 2: Agunro who is the co producer and co director and
Speaker 2: she's also an Emmy nominated film director.
Speaker 3: So we are Wealth Wednesdays is stylin today.
Speaker 1: Hey listen, we got the whole crew. Has so many questions.
Speaker 1: First of all, each of you could have your own
Speaker 1: segment on your own, but we're just excited to have
Speaker 1: you here. I had a chance to watch the documentary
Speaker 1: and I know part of what we went is for
Speaker 1: people to bring this documentary into their institutions and just
Speaker 1: spread the word.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: Of course, one hundred percent. That's the big idea the
Speaker 4: way that it exists right now. We're welcome in schools,
Speaker 4: educational institutions, entities, people that are interested to reach out.
Speaker 4: So you can see the screening excuse me, see the
Speaker 4: short form. And the big goal is to make a
Speaker 4: feature link filming, So that's what we're aiming for, but
Speaker 4: most definitely people can bring it in.
Speaker 2: And just to back up where this came from. So
Speaker 2: howvier you're at Duke. Obviously y'all out there, and no,
Speaker 2: Duke is quite a basketball school and none of the
Speaker 2: play got you.
Speaker 3: That's it.
Speaker 4: Duke is either you love Duke and you hate Duke.
Speaker 4: It's really no in.
Speaker 2: Between, right And you were teaching and none of them
Speaker 2: and I know there's players, basketball players in your class
Speaker 2: and none of them knew who C. B.
Speaker 3: Claiborne was. What did that moment do for you?
Speaker 4: It really ignited something in me and I remember it
Speaker 4: almost like it was yesterday. It was the first class
Speaker 4: I ever taught at Duke. And walked through the door.
Speaker 4: Derek Lively, who's seven foot play got drafted by the
Speaker 4: Dallas Mavericks, walked through the door. Tyreeche Proctor walked through
Speaker 4: the door. Jeremy Roach walks through the door, Derek Whitehead
Speaker 4: walks through the door. Mark Mitchell. Five black, five black
Speaker 4: men's basketball player at Duke, and we're supposed to be
Speaker 4: learning about black Latin Americans in sport, but I just
Speaker 4: learned about CBE Claiborne's story. And when they walked in
Speaker 4: they sat down, I was like, what y'all know about
Speaker 4: CV crickets crickets And I'm like, no, this isn't right,
Speaker 4: this isn't right, because I knew at that moment that
Speaker 4: all five of those young men who happened to be
Speaker 4: black that were playing big time at Duke basketball were
Speaker 4: benefiting from the labor of the sacrifices of CB Claiborn.
Speaker 4: And so the next week I just hit doctor clay
Speaker 4: Worn up and I asked him to jump in on
Speaker 4: zoom and he came into the class on zoom and
Speaker 4: it was It just ignited something in me and I'll
Speaker 4: never forget because I saw them. They did a Day
Speaker 4: in the Life Mark Mitchell, and his next episode on
Speaker 4: his Day in the Life, he was in the car
Speaker 4: driving with Tyreek's and he was like, I just learned
Speaker 4: about CB Clayborne today bet y'all don't know who that is.
Speaker 4: And I'm like, okay, we did.
Speaker 3: Some Yeah, awesome that to CB claiborne.
Speaker 1: You had the opportunity to play, and Duke was not
Speaker 1: your first choice when you decided to go there, right right,
Speaker 1: And so talk to me about making that decision, because
Speaker 1: that's a big one to be the first black player
Speaker 1: on a team when they weren't even giving scholarships. And
Speaker 1: I have to imagine as young as you were, you
Speaker 1: couldn't even anticipate the type of things that would happen
Speaker 1: because it's unprecedented.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, so thanks so much for having us. You know,
Speaker 5: when I think back to nineteen sixty five, I went
Speaker 5: to a black high school, you know, and I had
Speaker 5: a great coach who had gone to Hampton Institute, and
Speaker 5: he started when we were in junior high school taking
Speaker 5: us to see the CIAA games. There was a Thursday
Speaker 5: where all the schools used to go, and Coach Allen
Speaker 5: had already introduced me to the coach of A and T,
Speaker 5: the coach of Winston Sale the legendary Big House games.
Speaker 3: You know, she went there, she got excited, yes, yes.
Speaker 5: And so I thought my future was set, you know,
Speaker 5: I was going to go to A and T or
Speaker 5: Winston Sale little more, one of the schools in the
Speaker 5: CI Double A and my teammate, the captain of the
Speaker 5: team the year before me, had gone to A and T.
Speaker 5: So I was leaning towards going to A and T
Speaker 5: and playing for cal Urban.
Speaker 2: Wow, we're gonna unpack all of that, and just a moment,
Speaker 2: just saying with the film for just a moment for me.
Speaker 2: When you heard about the story, what made you say
Speaker 2: this has to be a film?
Speaker 6: Well, I remember Hobbyer called me. I was in LA
Speaker 6: editing and he told me, you know, do you know
Speaker 6: who doctor Claiborne is? And I said, no, I don't.
Speaker 6: And once he told me who he was, I immediately wanted
Speaker 6: to help bring this story to life because I always
Speaker 6: say doctor Claiborne is a dynamic person. He's very unique,
Speaker 6: valigraatorian of his high school, top of his class, went
Speaker 6: to Duke for engine and then also the first black
Speaker 6: athlete on the basketball team. Like I wanted to tell
Speaker 6: the story.
Speaker 2: Doctor Clayman before you, if we even think about Duke
Speaker 2: in college, you were such a like part of the
Speaker 2: expression badass in high school. You got to meet the
Speaker 2: President of the United States. Tell everybody else smart you
Speaker 2: are well.
Speaker 5: So in those days, the Presidential scholars program had just started.
Speaker 5: I think we were the second class maybe, And so
Speaker 5: they would to choose two people from each state to
Speaker 5: be Presidential Scholars and go meet the president. And I
Speaker 5: was one of the people chosen from Virginia in nineteen
Speaker 5: sixty five. I got to go meet President Johnson.
Speaker 3: Go ahead, he's not telling the host I know. He's not.
Speaker 4: The test that you had to take to be awarded.
Speaker 4: He took it while going to ditch the actual test,
Speaker 4: didn't study for it, and he got caught up in
Speaker 4: the hallway by one of his guidance counselors and win
Speaker 4: it and did attest and then became a scholar, and.
Speaker 2: You were class president, and you were in the National
Speaker 2: Honor Society all that. What's interesting is colleges like Duke.
Speaker 2: Universities like Duke, they used to try to keep black
Speaker 2: players out by raising academic standards.
Speaker 3: And Duke wasn't this.
Speaker 2: Hey, we want to have the first black basketball player.
Speaker 2: It was your total picture that made them look at you.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the ACC had set a nine hundred on your
Speaker 5: college board as a limit to get into the conference
Speaker 5: to get into school, and they had done that on
Speaker 5: purpose because a lot of the guys who were really
Speaker 5: good players didn't have a nine. Now that sounds really
Speaker 5: low today, but back in nineteen sixty five without all
Speaker 5: the studies and taking it two or three times, nine
Speaker 5: hundred was a decent score right.
Speaker 2: Well, And in the documentary one of the things that
Speaker 2: you say that really stayed with me. Okay, So now
Speaker 2: you go, you're at Duke and you say that one
Speaker 2: of the pathways of making change in the South during
Speaker 2: the sixties was athletics, So you weren't You ended up
Speaker 2: being so much more than a basketball player.
Speaker 3: But was that your intention?
Speaker 5: Well, I don't think it was my intention, but there
Speaker 5: was no choice. I mean I grew up in Danville.
Speaker 5: Doctor King referred to Danville the same way he referred
Speaker 5: to Birmingham. It was one of the worst places in
Speaker 5: the South. So Bloody Monday was also about Danville, Virginia.
Speaker 5: A lot of my classmates were actually injured in that demonstration.
Speaker 5: So I had been exposed to this growing up, and
Speaker 5: there was really no choice. I mean, if you were black,
Speaker 5: you had to stand up for black kinds of things.
Speaker 5: And then I had all these teachers who had all
Speaker 5: gone to HBCU schools who are also saying, well, you know,
Speaker 5: this is what you do. So it wasn't like I
Speaker 5: made a choice, you know, it was just what I did.
Speaker 1: Said, tell me about yeah, tell me about the decision though, because,
Speaker 1: like you said, you had a lot of options. And
Speaker 1: part of it was also, they did give you a scholarship, right,
Speaker 1: Oh they didn't. I thought you said they did give
Speaker 1: you a scholarship.
Speaker 5: Well, I eventually got what they call a grant and
Speaker 5: aid okay, but they would not give me a basketball
Speaker 5: scholarship at Duke at the time. Although you know, starting
Speaker 5: in my junior year, this this test that Javier talks
Speaker 5: about me taking, I already had scholarships to college in
Speaker 5: my junior year, so I could have left school then.
Speaker 5: But we decided, and it wasn't just me, but a
Speaker 5: lot of us decided to stay and play our senior
Speaker 5: year for coach Allen. Although we could have gone to
Speaker 5: college in our junior year and you.
Speaker 2: Had options, but your community really pushed you to go
Speaker 2: to Duke, and especially when you just what you just
Speaker 2: told us about their history, why did they want to.
Speaker 3: Do that to you?
Speaker 5: Well, coach Benny Dix had gone to North Carolina Central
Speaker 5: in Durham and played there along with Sam Jones, who
Speaker 5: was also on the team at that time, so he
Speaker 5: had ultimate credentials. Now, it's an interesting story. I met
Speaker 5: coach Dix not playing basketball. We played against them every year,
Speaker 5: but I met him because my family kept borders and
Speaker 5: Coach Dix was dating one of the women that stayed
Speaker 5: with my aunt. So yeah, so he was actually kind
Speaker 5: of like a father figure. You know. He would advise me,
Speaker 5: give me quarters to go to the store, to get
Speaker 5: me out of the living room so they could have
Speaker 5: it by themselves and things like that.
Speaker 1: As they're watching the documentary too, we have a chance
Speaker 1: to see that. I mean, when they show the team,
Speaker 1: it's just white, white, white, white, white, white white. But
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, how are your teammates? How
Speaker 1: did they treat you? Because you did have people you
Speaker 1: bonded with, but what are some things that happened like
Speaker 1: that you could discuss.
Speaker 5: At that time, my teammates, believe it or not, by
Speaker 5: and large, were really good. You know, we didn't have
Speaker 5: any issues. Now, every time I walked on that court,
Speaker 5: four of the guys walked on the court with me
Speaker 5: who were white. And so when we'd go into the
Speaker 5: Deep South, I mean, we had to play freshman ball.
Speaker 5: So we played Alabama, we played South Carolina, we played Clemson,
Speaker 5: and every time we walked into a gym, the Confederate
Speaker 5: flags were flying, Dixie was playing. And I think to
Speaker 5: some degree it shot them more than me because they
Speaker 5: were from Indiana, they were from Chicago, they were basically
Speaker 5: from the north and the west Pennsylvania. But they hadn't
Speaker 5: been exposed to this kind of overt kind of racism,
Speaker 5: and so I think we did bond because of that,
Speaker 5: and they certainly experienced, you know what I was experiencing
Speaker 5: on the court, you know, for the first time personally.
Speaker 2: I want to ask you because as a figure skater
Speaker 2: and upstate New York, I had that overt racist experience
Speaker 2: daily as a young kid, and I wonder what did
Speaker 2: it do to you psychologically and emotionally.
Speaker 5: Well, I survived, whereas a lot of the guys who
Speaker 5: came south to integrate the ACC had a hard time.
Speaker 5: I mean, nowhere Toddman from New York came down, you know,
Speaker 5: Charlie Scott came down, and so it was tough for
Speaker 5: them because they hadn't exactly experienced that before. But I
Speaker 5: grew up in Danville, so this was not anything that
Speaker 5: I hadn't seen. Now, there were some times I was
Speaker 5: on the court I heard people yell things that I
Speaker 5: actually was embarrased. I mean, their kids were there, their
Speaker 5: wives were there, and these guys were shocked. But I
Speaker 5: had heard it before. You know, our general reaction to
Speaker 5: when somebody says something racist was yo, mama, And so
Speaker 5: it didn't It's been me out of shape as much
Speaker 5: as it been some of them. Psychologically, I guess I
Speaker 5: expected more, and over time that took a toll. But
Speaker 5: I really was able to adjust to it a lot
Speaker 5: more than some of the other guys, and I got
Speaker 5: to you know, I came in sixty five. There were
Speaker 5: only two other guys playing in sixty five. There were
Speaker 5: two guys at Maryland. One was a junior college transfer
Speaker 5: and another guy had come. He was on the varsity
Speaker 5: that same time. So we were the ones that were
Speaker 5: getting the brunt of all of this. But Maryland we
Speaker 5: had to play freshman ball. Maryland didn't go in to
Speaker 5: the Deep South, so they're freshman teams. You know, maybe
Speaker 5: played the university of Virginia, but they weren't playing Alabama
Speaker 5: and places like that, and so as a freshman any
Speaker 5: place of the varsity he played, I played. I mean,
Speaker 5: I remember one particular game in Alabama where I walked
Speaker 5: into the gym. There was not another black person in
Speaker 5: the gym, not even a janitor, right, and so crazy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, imagine that, and look at how basketball is sport.
Speaker 2: And I know the feeling you're describing because you were
Speaker 2: older and you had a team, and I just remember
Speaker 2: being little and I was away from my parents and
Speaker 2: just a judge came up to me one time and
Speaker 2: just said, have you ever in your life seen little
Speaker 2: black girls.
Speaker 3: On the ice?
Speaker 2: Is because you're not supposed to skate, and you're just
Speaker 2: like in shock, you know, you know, It's just an
Speaker 2: awesome feeling. And I'm glad to see how you responded
Speaker 2: to that with everything. A producer note before we continue
Speaker 2: with your story, Fumi, there's so much to him. I'm
Speaker 2: really curious when you're sitting in the editing room, you're too, Javier.
Speaker 2: What are the things that happened that you said, Okay,
Speaker 2: this has to stay in this.
Speaker 6: Well, Angela, you mentioned seeing that picture of the basketball team,
Speaker 6: and so at that point of the film, he's talking
Speaker 6: about his decision to make it to Duke and how
Speaker 6: the community really backed him and that it wasn't just
Speaker 6: your decision, it was the decision of the community that
Speaker 6: really helped you. And so my focus on the film
Speaker 6: was really telling that key part of the story because
Speaker 6: there's so much you can talk about. And we had
Speaker 6: trouble actually when we were looking at all the footage
Speaker 6: because he's just the dynamic person. We can talk about
Speaker 6: how the community really helped you. We can talk about
Speaker 6: how you actually played baseball as well. There's just so
Speaker 6: many different elements. So I had to stay on track.
Speaker 6: But when we developed the feature length film, we're going
Speaker 6: to dive into more of the different aspects of his life.
Speaker 4: And I want to quickly say, for me, not necessarily
Speaker 4: what had to stay. It was also thinking about what
Speaker 4: didn't need to be in there, okay, because just what
Speaker 4: doctor claim when it's saying now over the years of
Speaker 4: knowing him, he expressed that, you know, some of the
Speaker 4: things that he heard say to him made him embarrassed.
Speaker 4: He would never want to repeat again. And so I
Speaker 4: had a non black viewer view the film and they said,
Speaker 4: surely he would have witnessed a lynching. I'm like, what
Speaker 4: kind of question is that? And so at that moment,
Speaker 4: it was like who needs to see that violence? Like
Speaker 4: who needs to really understand how deep of a trauma
Speaker 4: that was? And how do we also protect the person
Speaker 4: that is still living with that trauma?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 4: Like do we need to repeat all those things, like
Speaker 4: because certain people don't need to have such a visual
Speaker 4: example of what he's describing to understand. Being the only
Speaker 4: black person to walking to a gym in nineteen sixty
Speaker 4: six in Alabama in itself was enough. And they're singing
Speaker 4: Dixie Waven Confederate Flax. Why do I need to tell
Speaker 4: you exactly what the person said? And so we also
Speaker 4: were thinking about what doesn't need to be said to
Speaker 4: preserve the humanity of the person while still trying to
Speaker 4: produce a film that gives people that same idea of
Speaker 4: what was going on.
Speaker 3: Lucky for you, there's so much to his story. So
Speaker 3: we didn't just get to duke and play basketball. You
Speaker 3: made some changes, He made some changes. Let's talk about
Speaker 3: that a little bit.
Speaker 5: Well, So to put this in context, I don't think
Speaker 5: we've talked about this before. We were doing a lot of.
Speaker 4: It's always.
Speaker 5: We were doing a lot of self education at Duke.
Speaker 5: We made a demand for Black studies, right, well, there
Speaker 5: was no Black studies. I remember when the autobiography of
Speaker 5: Malcolm came out, you know, my roommate and I every
Speaker 5: moment we got we were reading that, trying to finish
Speaker 5: the autobiography, you know, Eldred's later sol on Ice Stokely,
Speaker 5: Black Power, I mean before the Mayflower. So we read
Speaker 5: all of these books as students, but they weren't part
Speaker 5: of our curriculum. And so later yes, when we formulated
Speaker 5: some demands, we said, we need African American studies. We
Speaker 5: need a chance for everybody to be exposed to this
Speaker 5: material that we had reached out for ourselves.
Speaker 3: You organized and protested.
Speaker 5: Well, it started just what do we have to do
Speaker 5: to have black studies or to have a course that
Speaker 5: represents us? And that was a couple of years before
Speaker 5: it actually grew to the level of a protest. We
Speaker 5: had tried other avenues before then.
Speaker 1: Right, I want to ask you this just to change
Speaker 1: gears a little, because you know, as an athlete you
Speaker 1: also get the ladies, and I want to I'm just wondering,
Speaker 1: Doctor Claiborne, what was that aspect of it like though?
Speaker 1: Just because you're the first and only black man on
Speaker 1: the team at Duke, So how was that type of response?
Speaker 1: Because I think we all know that when men, you know,
Speaker 1: that's part of what it is, are flocking to the athletes.
Speaker 3: But what was that like for you?
Speaker 5: So there was no shortage of women around?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 5: However, you know, I came along in the Black power era,
Speaker 5: and so we tended to push white women away. To
Speaker 5: be honest, it wasn't cool to be seen around campus
Speaker 5: with a white woman in those days. And North Carolina
Speaker 5: Central was right across town, right, and so eleven of
Speaker 5: my classmates were at North Carolina Centy, I mean, from
Speaker 5: my senior year had gone to North Carolina Central. So
Speaker 5: there was no shortage of women.
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm not gonna call that a digression.
Speaker 1: When it comes because I didn't think about I went
Speaker 1: to a very white high school, and I do remember
Speaker 1: some of the black athletes experience like some not so
Speaker 1: great things from you know, from yeah, yeah, from the
Speaker 1: white women.
Speaker 2: It's a whole, that's a whole, that's a whole other show.
Speaker 2: And we will a conversation we should definitely have. I
Speaker 2: don't want you to downplay your protests and what you did.
Speaker 2: You actually had a sit in that the National Guard
Speaker 2: came to. Can you tell us about that and what
Speaker 2: you guys were fighting for?
Speaker 3: And it had a name, right.
Speaker 5: So that was the Allen Building takeover. And by this
Speaker 5: time the Black Students Association had grown and had gotten
Speaker 5: behind those demands. We had tried to ask the President
Speaker 5: for hearing. We weren't getting anywhere, so we said, why
Speaker 5: don't we take over the building and demand the president
Speaker 5: to talk to us about that. It's President Doug Knight
Speaker 5: at the time, and this was not too long after Columbia.
Speaker 5: You know, we're in New York to talk about that,
Speaker 5: and they had done the same thing, the students at Columbia.
Speaker 5: We were kind of the first ones to do it
Speaker 5: in the South. But we did go into the building,
Speaker 5: and we went in early in the morning. We had
Speaker 5: a plan, and we locked the doors from the inside
Speaker 5: and put a chain around him so nobody could get in.
Speaker 5: And it wasn't long before the National Guard was called.
Speaker 5: And so in the film they captured the footage with
Speaker 5: tear gas and you know, the shields the masks, batons
Speaker 5: and all of that. They eventually broke into the building,
Speaker 5: you know, and.
Speaker 3: You guys had escaped though.
Speaker 5: Yes, there was a community organizer in Durham named Howard Fuller,
Speaker 5: that was his name at that time. But he came
Speaker 5: in across the roof from the next door building and
Speaker 5: then upstairs window and came down and said, the Guard
Speaker 5: is a massing they're going to break into here. You
Speaker 5: guys better leave, And so everybody found a different way
Speaker 5: out and I went out the same way Howard had
Speaker 5: come in, you know, through a third floor window, across
Speaker 5: the roof and down through the psychology building which was
Speaker 5: next door. And I was actually standing in the crowd
Speaker 5: and watching the National Guard inside through the windows, you know,
Speaker 5: going around breaking things, which we later got you know,
Speaker 5: a travel for.
Speaker 1: They said, you guys were breaking things and this Alan
Speaker 1: building takeover was a peaceful protest. So interesting that they
Speaker 1: would call the National Guard and instead of addressing real.
Speaker 3: Issues, we're like reading in protests, like.
Speaker 1: Imagine that we went more studies of our history and
Speaker 1: that's dangerous.
Speaker 5: Yes, So that's kind of a duke characteristiceing you know,
Speaker 5: you're protesting, you've taken over the building and you're studying.
Speaker 3: At the same time, it wasn't just about students. You
Speaker 3: were trying to get wages raised.
Speaker 5: So we had a list of demands, and at that time,
Speaker 5: some of the cafeteria workers and some of the other
Speaker 5: service workers, they were trying to get their hourly wages raised,
Speaker 5: and so that was among our demands as well. So
Speaker 5: those people, if you can imagine, became our family. Because
Speaker 5: you're on campus, you go to the cafeteria every day.
Speaker 5: Who do you see, you know that looks like you.
Speaker 5: In fact, for the basketball team, I was stuck there
Speaker 5: over Thanksgiving practicing and things like that.
Speaker 2: Sun plays, he spent he's played, he spent many holidays.
Speaker 5: Right, And I would go home with some of the
Speaker 5: cafeteria workers and they would make sure, you know, I
Speaker 5: had a holiday that felt like, you know what I
Speaker 5: was used to. So, yeah, we supported them, for sure.
Speaker 1: I was you know all of this also while everybody's
Speaker 1: been watching football lately and FIFA and all of that,
Speaker 1: and all of the talks about Argentina, which I didn't
Speaker 1: know Argentina was like that until yeah, go ahead, doctor heavier.
Speaker 4: Wile.
Speaker 3: I get started start.
Speaker 1: I've heard you've talked about Panama and what you've experienced
Speaker 1: when it comes to pan But can you talk about
Speaker 1: that too, because I think it opened a lot of
Speaker 1: people's eyes. I know for me, I was like, dang,
Speaker 1: I didn't know, you know, I just never even considered that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I'm Panamanian on my father's side and I've
Speaker 4: lived in the Republic of Panea. I actually studied a
Speaker 4: lot about race in Latin America, and I think what
Speaker 4: the FIFA World Cup actually did for US is demonstrate
Speaker 4: that race and racism isn't exclusive to the United States,
Speaker 4: and that you have nation states with people like Argentina
Speaker 4: that's no different from other places that has a history
Speaker 4: of having black people as enslaved people, freed people, and
Speaker 4: free people that have always been there but have intentionally
Speaker 4: been invisibleized. And then you have this idea of here
Speaker 4: that everybody in that country is white, and that's not true.
Speaker 4: But then also what happens the Argentinian fans, not all
Speaker 4: of them, but for a large white have a history
Speaker 4: of being very anti black. And especially when you understand
Speaker 4: Argentina is a neighbor of Brazil, which has the largest
Speaker 4: black population in the America, is the second largest Black
Speaker 4: population in any country outside of Nigeria. There's been a
Speaker 4: long held belief about people outside of in that region
Speaker 4: that are racializers black, and it's been made okay to
Speaker 4: be racist to people because there hasn't been, in my estimation,
Speaker 4: enough consequence against these racist type of behaviors, these chants,
Speaker 4: and there's so many interactions that happen that give us
Speaker 4: opportunity to challenge what we see. And they have to
Speaker 4: do they as a country, in my opinion, they have
Speaker 4: to do better, like they have to do better. They
Speaker 4: have to be police better. They need to be consequence
Speaker 4: and needs to be waged against those people that harbor
Speaker 4: those anti black racist belief and they are very present
Speaker 4: throughout Latin America. Don't let anybody lie to you and
Speaker 4: say that race is not that race doesn't exist in
Speaker 4: Latin America. Okay, so almost who know gave me in
Speaker 4: DA I said, no one on, So let me not
Speaker 4: get started. There's a lot of differences there and so
Speaker 4: that that's a yes.
Speaker 5: For me.
Speaker 1: What do you guys need to make this feature length?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 1: What's needed now to be actionable steps to get this completed?
Speaker 6: Two million dollars?
Speaker 3: Okay, good answer, that's a good.
Speaker 6: Start two million dollars. We already have years of research.
Speaker 6: We've been working with doctor Claiborne for the past few years.
Speaker 6: We spend a lot of time with him and we
Speaker 6: know exactly how we want to tell this story and
Speaker 6: the other topics we want to dive into.
Speaker 2: How do people be part of that? How could people
Speaker 2: make donations to the film? Because if there's two things
Speaker 2: people can do, you can bring it to your organization
Speaker 2: and school community, like and was saying, or if you
Speaker 2: want to see it made into its full glory, what
Speaker 2: would people do?
Speaker 6: Yes, that's a great question. So we have a website
Speaker 6: Cbclaiborne dot dot com, el Claiborne c L A, I,
Speaker 6: B O, R N E, Cbclayborne dooc dot com and
Speaker 6: so you can reach out to us on that site.
Speaker 6: You can also reach out reach out to us on
Speaker 6: Instagram c be. The film shoot I'm trying to.
Speaker 4: Remember is on there as well.
Speaker 6: The fundraiser link goes on there, and yeah, you can
Speaker 6: screen it at a school institution. That's the film, the
Speaker 6: short film that premiered at Martha's Vineyard in south By,
Speaker 6: Southwest EDU.
Speaker 3: So that's the.
Speaker 6: Film that you can have at a school or institution,
Speaker 6: or like at a company, if you want to host
Speaker 6: the screening for your employees, and then reach out to
Speaker 6: us if you want to come on board as a
Speaker 6: producer or help us fund the feature length version of
Speaker 6: the film.
Speaker 7: A million producers are going to be like, yeah, and
Speaker 7: I can say that Javier, as an educator, has written
Speaker 7: a wonderful curriculum to go along.
Speaker 5: With this, and so if you wanted to use it
Speaker 5: in a school or even in a business, you know
Speaker 5: he has the the background that will help you set
Speaker 5: it up, the learning points that could come from it.
Speaker 5: In fact, he's expanding this to be applicable to other
Speaker 5: kinds of not just sports, but to other kinds of situations.
Speaker 5: You know where you're talking about, you know, making choices,
Speaker 5: sticking with whatever you've decided to do. So there are
Speaker 5: a lot of possible learning objectives, a lot.
Speaker 1: But doctor cb claiborne, I do want to ask you
Speaker 1: about activism and athletes because some people feel like and
Speaker 1: they feel like this with music too, like I just
Speaker 1: want to do my job. Some people are like, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to get involved in that, but you definitely
Speaker 1: were involved. What are your thoughts about athletes because they
Speaker 1: do have a huge platform people watching and paying attention
Speaker 1: to them. What are your thoughts about athletes saying, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't get involved in politics and the athletes to
Speaker 1: do and you you know, reference Colin Kaepernick as well
Speaker 1: in the documentary. But what do you think about this
Speaker 1: platform that people have and a responsibility?
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, this is one of Vier's takeaways and a
Speaker 5: learning objectives. You are not just an athlete. You are more.
Speaker 5: Nobody should reduce you to just being able to run
Speaker 5: or jump. I mean, you live in this world now.
Speaker 5: I can't tell you what to do, but everybody has
Speaker 5: a commitment to develop themselves enough to be more than
Speaker 5: just an athlete.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: When I watched your documentary, and I know you and
Speaker 2: I have spoken about this. So my father went to
Speaker 2: A and T and my mother I'm an Aggie baby,
Speaker 2: and he's in the college Football Hall of Fame there
Speaker 2: and he went on to a life in community service politics.
Speaker 2: What have you, Because, like you said, that's what athletes did.
Speaker 2: Now there's a huge discussion about college athletes getting paid
Speaker 2: nil and I wanted your thoughts on that. How you
Speaker 2: see it and if you feel like your generation laid
Speaker 2: the groundwork for that to happen, and it's a good thing,
Speaker 2: or you know your views on this whole nil college.
Speaker 5: Actually there's an evolution of NIL. I played with a
Speaker 5: guy named Dick di Vinzio who in the sixties wrote
Speaker 5: a book saying college athletes should get paid. So this
Speaker 5: is not a new idea, but it is the evolution
Speaker 5: of an idea. And so if you think about what
Speaker 5: the economic trade off is before you got a scholarship
Speaker 5: and you gave something to the university, right you were
Speaker 5: student athlete as they called it. It's changing quite a
Speaker 5: bit now. I mean a lot of people are won
Speaker 5: and done. The part of that equation that's being missed
Speaker 5: is the education is still important. Even if you're there
Speaker 5: for only one year, you take away something like when
Speaker 5: you go to Javiera's class, you learn something that will
Speaker 5: be with you for the rest of your life. So
Speaker 5: I like to call this educational equity. And like anything
Speaker 5: you invest, it grows. So is it the same thing
Speaker 5: to learn something that's at thirty five as it is
Speaker 5: to learn it at nineteen. No, when you learn it early,
Speaker 5: that grows with you, that enables your life. So there
Speaker 5: is a value to education, just like there is a
Speaker 5: value to playing ball. What NIL has done is give
Speaker 5: us the money upfront or the other part of that
Speaker 5: equity upfront. Whereas before you would go, you'd learn, or
Speaker 5: if you'd spent four years in school, you'd learn a
Speaker 5: lot and it would pay off eventually. Now you're taking
Speaker 5: your money upfront, and so you have to make the decision, well,
Speaker 5: I'll do this, but I'm only in school for one year.
Speaker 5: What about the other stuff that I would have learned
Speaker 5: if I had stayed there for four years?
Speaker 3: You know that's true.
Speaker 2: A lot of people are, especially a lot of people
Speaker 2: who's you know, kids want to be athletes one day,
Speaker 2: are very against this inn il and athletes getting paid
Speaker 2: because you have to be super, super good now to
Speaker 2: be a college athlete. And I have a son who's
Speaker 2: a college athlete, and it just always baffles me that
Speaker 2: it escapes people that American parents and families spend billions
Speaker 2: and billions and billions of dollars a year. You have
Speaker 2: twenty percent of them taking on second jobs, working overtimes
Speaker 2: to create the athletes that these colleges benefit from. And yes,
Speaker 2: they should get some of that. They should see that
Speaker 2: money back. And I think what's also missed is I
Speaker 2: didn't know this until I had a kid who played
Speaker 2: sports in college. What the colleges do. They might promise
Speaker 2: a kid, Oh, we're going to give you four years
Speaker 2: a full scholarship.
Speaker 3: We want you on the team. After the first year.
Speaker 2: If the coach doesn't want the kid on that team anymore,
Speaker 2: the scholarship is dropped. The parents are a year into
Speaker 2: an education they can't afford. And that's the norm. I
Speaker 2: can't you know, to me, athletes should overwhelmingly get paid.
Speaker 2: And I know they're young, so they have to be monitored.
Speaker 2: But I wondered what your thoughts are on that.
Speaker 5: Nil is kind of the promise of the payoff. Right,
Speaker 5: you get your money up front, but it's an anticipation
Speaker 5: of a bigger payoff later. That's why you know people
Speaker 5: recruit you. And so the university is always looking for
Speaker 5: a payoff, or you know, the league is looking for
Speaker 5: the payoff later. In terms of what that person might produce,
Speaker 5: the person has sacrificed that growing period where that investment
Speaker 5: that you know, we used to plant seeds, it will
Speaker 5: take time for those seeds to develop. I think one
Speaker 5: of the things now that I see in the game
Speaker 5: in the game of basketball is that players are very undeveloped.
Speaker 5: They are super talented, but that isn't developed. So they
Speaker 5: go to the league and they aren't as good as
Speaker 5: they could Most of them aren't as good as they
Speaker 5: could be. They certainly not as good. Is that if
Speaker 5: they had had four years playing for coach ko four
Speaker 5: years playing for Jim Beheim, right, because there would be
Speaker 5: a whole lot transmitted in that four year period. And
Speaker 5: so you're taking this undeveloped plant, if you will, or
Speaker 5: the seed that hasn't fully developed, because of the potential
Speaker 5: of what it would be when it's developed. And so, yeah,
Speaker 5: I mean, everybody wants the big payday, but I still
Speaker 5: like players who decide to stay around.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and a lot of the people going into college
Speaker 2: now are the twenty four year old who graduated and
Speaker 2: doesn't have and has two years of eligibility left. So
Speaker 2: a lot of I know parents are complaining, you know,
Speaker 2: my kid doesn't have a fair shake anymore. But that's
Speaker 2: just what college sports has become. It is professional sports.
Speaker 2: I know, Hobby, you have some thoughts on this as well.
Speaker 4: Scamp has totally changed in college athletics, and a lot
Speaker 4: of it has to do with nil and in the
Speaker 4: onset of nil and what it has shifted up right
Speaker 4: where and now with the House settlement now where certain
Speaker 4: universities can pay college athletes from the revenue that they generate,
Speaker 4: it is giving athletes, particularly in these high revenue producing
Speaker 4: sports like basketball and football, whole other avenues that think
Speaker 4: about and so now you have you know, I you know,
Speaker 4: I joke with my students when I walk in it's like,
Speaker 4: how long have you been here?
Speaker 5: Again?
Speaker 4: It's a year six for you? And how many more
Speaker 4: years ago? So you're gonna be here almost ten years now,
Speaker 4: It's like why are we here? So so on the
Speaker 4: flip side of one and done, it's like, now there's
Speaker 4: more options. But then it also makes it more competitive.
Speaker 4: And then when we factor in that we've in the
Speaker 4: US gone global with the game, and we have a
Speaker 4: lot of international players coming in that even once we're professional,
Speaker 4: are played professional in Europe and now they can reclassify
Speaker 4: and be youbor to compete in the NCAA, and so
Speaker 4: then it makes it even more challenging. It's so parents,
Speaker 4: I think, have to really be smart about the investments
Speaker 4: that they make in their children's athletic careers from a
Speaker 4: young age because everybody wants their child to be successful, right,
Speaker 4: but you probably don't need to be paying one thousand
Speaker 4: dollars a week to Uncle Jojo up the street who
Speaker 4: say he gonna get your kid right on the court.
Speaker 3: That's just what's AAU just.
Speaker 2: I mean, to be in those AAU leagues, it costs
Speaker 2: one thousand dollars, and the kids who do well in
Speaker 2: those leagues have that extra coach that they're paying another
Speaker 2: thousand dollars a year. That's just what it costs to
Speaker 2: do sports now. So I'm not mad at the kid who, Okay,
Speaker 2: tenth one percent of one millionth they're going to go
Speaker 2: to the NBA, But hey, I can earn one hundred
Speaker 2: thousand dollars in high school.
Speaker 4: That's that's I think that's the idea, if, if, and
Speaker 4: when that happens. And again for me, I always think
Speaker 4: about it's an industry that everybody that is interesting in
Speaker 4: the industry is going to try to make the money
Speaker 4: out of it, and parents. I would always advise as
Speaker 4: an athletic director, as a PhD in Physical education, as
Speaker 4: a sport manager with the Masters at over ten years
Speaker 4: of experience, there's no guarantee, a way of telling that
Speaker 4: your kid is going to be in that one percent,
Speaker 4: and so you have to just be mindful of how
Speaker 4: much you are monetarily investing in that one particular sport,
Speaker 4: and especially it comes at the expense of having actually
Speaker 4: a better athlete, because we know from the science that
Speaker 4: a kid that plays basketball, football, tennis is going to
Speaker 4: be a better athlete than the one who is just
Speaker 4: only focused on that one sport because they don't have
Speaker 4: a chance to develop all those other parts of their
Speaker 4: body that are going to make them better. But when
Speaker 4: we say basketball, basketball, basket football, football, football is at
Speaker 4: the expense of the kid their holistic development, which includes
Speaker 4: the athletic part. So I think parents should always be
Speaker 4: mindful and make good financial decisions like can we actually
Speaker 4: really afford this, and then also like what are the
Speaker 4: ways that we can holistically develop our children in not
Speaker 4: just the athletic part, but if they get into the
Speaker 4: position in high school or college where they can generate
Speaker 4: six seven figures or benefit from them image and likeness,
Speaker 4: get some of that revenue from the university, absolutely they
Speaker 4: should be able to do that. I believe they should do.
Speaker 2: For me, did you think your film is going to
Speaker 2: spark all these conversations.
Speaker 6: The nil conversation. No, but I knew that the film
Speaker 6: would spark a conversation about developing the whole person, not
Speaker 6: just focusing on sports, but who are you as a
Speaker 6: person beyond an athlete. The spark conversations about the importance
Speaker 6: of education and activism and how that plays into today. So,
Speaker 6: and that's why I love this story because doctor Claybornen
Speaker 6: is not just an athlete. He's a professor at TSU
Speaker 6: right now. So he's just a very well rounded per
Speaker 6: and I love the story.
Speaker 3: There's a lot to him.
Speaker 2: Just before we go, we're about to go tell everybody
Speaker 2: your call him Kayperneck's story.
Speaker 3: You had a real one.
Speaker 5: Well, I mean when I played, we had these little
Speaker 5: mini afros, nothing like Kaepernick. But coach Bobas called me
Speaker 5: into his office. He said, you know, if you have
Speaker 5: your hair like that, you can't play. I said, well, coach,
Speaker 5: you know Kareem is doing it. We called him loue
Speaker 5: El Cinder then. But you know he said, no, if
Speaker 5: you play for me, you can't.
Speaker 4: Let it girl.
Speaker 5: I said, well, okay, coach, Well he said, you're going
Speaker 5: to sit on the bench. I said, okay, I'll sit
Speaker 5: on the bench. Then, so we had this understanding that
Speaker 5: I could keep my hair, but I wouldn't play as
Speaker 5: long as I had, And it took about a year
Speaker 5: before that came around.
Speaker 4: You know, when more and more.
Speaker 3: People chose hair.
Speaker 5: I chose hair. Yeah, but hair. It wasn't just hair.
Speaker 5: It was what hair represented, you know, and it was
Speaker 5: very much connected to your black identity and your manhood.
Speaker 5: Then you know, again, this is Black power era, and
Speaker 5: so it wasn't a choice, right. I chose hair, but
Speaker 5: I was going to cut my hair and go out
Speaker 5: and pretend to be a man and play. No.
Speaker 1: How do you look back at your time at Duke
Speaker 1: in retrospect now, with.
Speaker 5: The advent of the story and some of the things
Speaker 5: that have happened recently, I look back at that time differently.
Speaker 5: You know, your your understanding evolves. So in the early
Speaker 5: years I thought, I guess my first thought as well,
Speaker 5: I didn't really get a chance at Duke, is what
Speaker 5: I would have said. But now I think the story
Speaker 5: is not just about basketball. It's a much bigger story,
Speaker 5: and I did get a chance to develop in many
Speaker 5: other ways. I can remember when George Wallace came to
Speaker 5: campus and Duke. Yeah, and all the things that Duke
Speaker 5: exposed me to. I remember when we went to the
Speaker 5: West Coast for the first time to play UCLA and
Speaker 5: walking into Polly Pavilion and seeing Coach Wooden there with
Speaker 5: his rolled up program even in practice, and he would
Speaker 5: just pointed right. So I got a chance to experience
Speaker 5: a tremendous number. We played in the garden, right, we
Speaker 5: played in the old Garden and the knicks were coming
Speaker 5: off right before we came on, and Dick Barnett would say,
Speaker 5: look at this spot, and he throw the ball down
Speaker 5: and the ball would just come right back to him.
Speaker 5: So he taught us where the dead spots were on
Speaker 5: the court and how you could use those dead spots
Speaker 5: you know, when you move.
Speaker 4: So there were.
Speaker 5: Unmeasurable things I learned at Duke University, and most of
Speaker 5: them because of playing basketball, and so yeah, I look
Speaker 5: back on it very differently now, you know. It was
Speaker 5: really part of my development. I am the person I
Speaker 5: am now because of Duke and because of basketball and
Speaker 5: to see what Duke is doing to try. I mean,
Speaker 5: I used to say when I went to do there
Speaker 5: was systematic exclusion. We couldn't go in the barbershop and
Speaker 5: get a haircut, you know, because black kids couldn't go
Speaker 5: in the barbershop. But now Duke gets proactively inclusive. The
Speaker 5: athletic director is a black woman, right, The women's basketball
Speaker 5: coach is black. So Duke has come a long way
Speaker 5: over that time. So I look back on this story
Speaker 5: in very different ways than I may have fifteen years ago.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so Muchy. They would have missed your
Speaker 1: hair up anyway.
Speaker 3: They would Wow.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2: Anybody who wants to be part of this journey go
Speaker 2: to Cbclayborne doc dot com. That's cb C L A
Speaker 2: I B O r n E d oc dot com.
Speaker 2: You can learn more about the film, see video on it,
Speaker 2: and learn how you.
Speaker 3: Can bring it into your community.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, thank you, thank you very much,
Speaker 2: thank you.
Speaker 3: Wednesday it was great.
Speaker 6: Thank you.