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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is a good

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Speaker 2: old fashioned, root and tootin wholesome, down home hour of

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Speaker 2: fellowship with Stuff you should Know.

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Speaker 1: Wow, these sound like the coolest youth director in the building.

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Speaker 2: You nailed the chuck, You totally nailed it.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: I'm also the only youth director in the building right now.

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Speaker 1: That's right. I I had to hang out my spurs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you got run out on a rail, didn't you.

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Speaker 1: They were like, if there's one thing that's certainly not cool,

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Speaker 1: this youth directors in their fifties, so you're out right.

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Speaker 2: I'm still in my forties. So it's kind of like

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Speaker 2: David Bowie said, don't trust any youth director over fifty.

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Speaker 1: That's right. You know. He also sung about styrofoam.

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Speaker 2: No he didn't.

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Speaker 1: I just thought I could get you.

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Speaker 2: No, I could see it. I mean like it was

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Speaker 2: when Bowie was Bowie, it was styrofoam was still this

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Speaker 2: amazing wonder product. But I gotta say, Chuck, I feel

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Speaker 2: like in the last decade or so, maybe it's started

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Speaker 2: to get kind of a bad name.

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Speaker 1: I think you're right, uh, And we're gonna, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about the science of it all, how

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Speaker 1: it's made, and clear up some misconceptions and reinforce some conceptions.

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Speaker 1: But the first thing we should probably clear up, and

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Speaker 1: big thanks to Lvia by the way, she knocked the

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Speaker 1: outther one out of the park, YEP, is that styrofoam

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Speaker 1: is a brand name, and Levi Levia Lyvia is keen

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Speaker 1: to point out that it's not just like you know,

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Speaker 1: band aid or Kleenex like this one actually matters because

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Speaker 1: the styrofoam that you and I think of and most

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Speaker 1: people probably think of as like, you know what, what

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Speaker 1: to go container or an old school coffee cup or

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Speaker 1: to go coffee cup might be Ye, that's actually not styrofoam.

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Speaker 1: That's technically something called EPs expanded polystyrene, whereas the brand

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Speaker 1: name styrofoam is extruded polystyrene and that's mainly just like

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Speaker 1: used for insulation and you know, cut into big boards

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Speaker 1: and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: Right, And you're like, well, what's the big deal? They're

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Speaker 2: actually basically exactly the same products. They have slightly different properties.

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Speaker 2: But it's all the same raw materials, very similar production processes,

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Speaker 2: and that the final product is, for all intentsive purposes,

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Speaker 2: the same. The big difference is the styrofoam is used

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Speaker 2: for years and years and years and years. Like, once

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Speaker 2: you put it in to insulate a radiant heat floor,

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Speaker 2: you're not going to tear that up after a couple

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Speaker 2: of days and throw it in the dump. Ye with

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Speaker 2: the other stuff that expanded polystyrene, the stuff we think

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Speaker 2: of as styrofoam, that's the stuff we used once for

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Speaker 2: a few minutes and just throw away and get another

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Speaker 2: new one. And that's posing a bigger and bigger problem

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Speaker 2: as time goes on.

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Speaker 1: That's right, unless you're at my house than Emily collects

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Speaker 1: every bit of styrofoam and drives it to the specific

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Speaker 1: styrofoam place Charm, Yeah, which still may not be recycling it.

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Speaker 1: Oh no really, Oh I don't know. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think Charm does the right thing, but I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I just think so much of that stuff is dubious

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Speaker 1: once you drop it off, Like who knows what even

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Speaker 1: happens to it? Yeah, And I don't mean that in

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Speaker 1: a conspiracy minded way. I just mean that as we'll

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Speaker 1: see recycling styrofoam, there's just not a lot of reason

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Speaker 1: to do it if you're styrofoam people, because you can

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Speaker 1: just make it again so cheaply.

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Speaker 2: It's true. And for those of you, yeah, it is

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Speaker 2: sad for sure. And for those of you outside of

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Speaker 2: the Atlanta area, CHARM is the one recycling center in

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Speaker 2: the entire metro Atlanta area where you can take styrofoam

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Speaker 2: stands for the Center for Hard to Recycle Materials.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, God bless Emily for doing all that,

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Speaker 1: because I certainly wouldn't.

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Speaker 2: I know, it's a hall. It's not really conveniently.

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Speaker 1: Neither is saving tons and tons of styrofoam to go

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Speaker 1: to CHARM once a month or whatever. But she does it,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, you know, she does the right thing.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about all this stuff because I find

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Speaker 2: it pretty fascinating. There's some science involved, or some environmentalism involved,

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Speaker 2: there's some corporate tomfoolery involved. I'm excited about this one. Well,

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Speaker 2: I'm glad, good, Well, I'm going to kick it off

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Speaker 2: because styrofoam, Well, let's start. We're talking about polystyrene, and

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Speaker 2: polystyrene is a form of styrene and styrene occurs naturally

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Speaker 2: in a lot of different plants. It's just kind of

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Speaker 2: part of the ecosystem. But it was first distilled out

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Speaker 2: in I think eighteen thirty nine, Yeah, by a German pharmacist.

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Speaker 2: I'm going with Edward Simmon in German.

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't know that sounds French.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that doesn't sound very German.

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Speaker 1: I me just call him Eddie Simon.

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Speaker 2: Eddie Simon. In eighteen thirty nine, he was a pharmacist

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Speaker 2: who got his hands on a sweet gum tree from America,

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Speaker 2: which was probably very exotic in Germany at the time,

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Speaker 2: and he got styrene out of there, and he figured

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Speaker 2: out how to take styrene molecules, which are a monomer,

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Speaker 2: and put a bunch of them together to make a polymer.

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Speaker 2: And what he got was a rigid plastic solid. What

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Speaker 2: we're talking about is a type of plastic. And he's like,

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Speaker 2: I can't do anything with this, and just moved along.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it stayed that way for close to one

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Speaker 1: hundred years, like ninety years or so. And finally in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, again a lot of stuff comes about

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Speaker 1: because they're trying to figure out some sort of military

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Speaker 1: use for something that was the case here as we were,

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Speaker 1: you know, between wars, the military was like, hey, how

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Speaker 1: can we use this stuff? The literal brand name styrofoam,

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Speaker 1: which again is the XPS the stuff that's you know,

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Speaker 1: used in radio flooring and like wall insulation and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that, that wasn't been in a couple of times.

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Speaker 1: The first time I'm by a Swedish and minter named

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Speaker 1: Carl Munters who developed it in the thirties but again

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Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of practical use for it. And

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Speaker 1: then Dow came along, the Dow Chemical Company during World

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Speaker 1: War Two, and they had an engineer named Ray McIntyre

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Speaker 1: who said, I'm looking to try and get a synthetic

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Speaker 1: or I guess he was charged with trying to develop

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Speaker 1: a synthetic substitute for rubber.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was facing five years for it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, to use as a flexible insulator. And he combined

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Speaker 1: styrene with isobutylene and what he got was something he

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Speaker 1: didn't expect, which was this very airy The i of

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Speaker 1: buteline formed bubbles in the styrene. So it was you

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Speaker 1: know what we think of a styrofom, this super light,

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Speaker 1: very airy, very insulating, water resistant flexible material.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so imagine taking something like imagine taking a CD

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Speaker 2: jewel case because that's polystyrene m and chopping it up

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Speaker 2: into little tiny pellets, and then you're messing around with

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Speaker 2: it and adding so beautilene, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: those pealaces turn into little foamy balls, the exact same

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Speaker 2: thing that if you have a very lightweight bean bag chair,

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Speaker 2: it's full of those. It's polystyrene foam. That's the basis

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Speaker 2: of the whole thing, right, these little tiny pellets. And

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Speaker 2: he must have just been as surprised as the day

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Speaker 2: is long.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Dow was certainly surprised and delighted, and they

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Speaker 1: were like, hey, let's just start manufacturing this stuff. We

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Speaker 1: got plenty of things we can do. And somebody said,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, there's this other guy named Carl Munters

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Speaker 1: who already developed, you know, and has patented this concept.

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Speaker 1: And dal said, great, let's just write him, cut him

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Speaker 1: a check, and now we can patent capital s styrofoam.

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Speaker 1: And they did so, and they started saying, hey, you know,

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Speaker 1: we can build like floating docks out of this stuff,

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Speaker 1: and there's all sorts of marine uses basically because it

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Speaker 1: floats really well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because that extruded polystyrene, the actual styrofoam brand type

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Speaker 2: that is very water resistant, it's extremely lightweight, it's very buoyant.

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Speaker 2: So it just automatically made sense to apply it to

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Speaker 2: different like water based situations, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. As far as the stuff that we

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Speaker 1: think of as styrofoam, around the same time in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty is a German company called ip Farban, who

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Speaker 1: I know, we've talked about them before several times.

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Speaker 2: They're the ones who created the gas that was used

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Speaker 2: in the gas chambers. Ah Okay, they've come up a

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Speaker 2: time or two. They don't have a great reputation these

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Speaker 2: days now.

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Speaker 1: I know, we've definitely talked about them a few times.

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Speaker 1: But they were developing the EPs, the polystyrene foam, the

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Speaker 1: stuff again that we think of as styrofoam, like you know,

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Speaker 1: the cups and the to go containers and all that stuff,

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Speaker 1: and both sides in World War Two started saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: this stuff is super light and super insulating, works good

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Speaker 1: as a shock absorber. We can use it in various

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Speaker 1: parts to make them lighter, So let's get going with it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The thing is, I guess it's part of the

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Speaker 2: extrusion process. Essentially is only made in board form long

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Speaker 2: finished boards, right, kind of like it looks like drywall,

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Speaker 2: but it's foam. If you've ever been to a do

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Speaker 2: it yourself hardware store and they have like big big

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Speaker 2: rectangles of foam, that is styrofoam styrol. It might not

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Speaker 2: be Styrofoam brand, but it's that exact same thing, right,

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Speaker 2: And there's not that many uses to it. But the

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Speaker 2: stuff it does do like blockout heat, insulate is another

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Speaker 2: word for it. It does really really well. Right, So

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Speaker 2: the XPS is it has like some limited applications. The EPs,

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Speaker 2: the stuff we think of like the styrofoam cups and

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Speaker 2: all that stuff, that has like a limitless applications because

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Speaker 2: you can take that stuff as part of the production

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Speaker 2: process and push it into a mold and mold it

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Speaker 2: into any shape you want. And they definitely did that

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Speaker 2: in the post war era of prosperous better living through chemistry.

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Speaker 2: That styrofoam was a a big star of that at first.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, you can probably name any sort

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Speaker 1: of insulation application that it was used for, everything from

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Speaker 1: you know, ice cream containers, like you know, when you

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Speaker 1: go to taste all the ice cream and then finally

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Speaker 1: settle on one those big coolers. Those are lined with

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Speaker 1: thick styrofoam. They used them for Christmas ornaments because they

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Speaker 1: were super light and won't weigh down a tree. All

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Speaker 1: kinds again of marine applications, you know, buoys, floating docks,

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Speaker 1: in boats. Again, you can mold it however you want.

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Speaker 1: But you know the styrophone coolers that you know, you

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Speaker 1: pick up at the gas station because you just have

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Speaker 1: a hankering for cold beer and you're on the road

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Speaker 1: you want to drink and drive smart. Just kidding, But

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Speaker 1: those that you see in the convenient store, those started

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Speaker 1: popping up in the nineteen fifties, but we didn't see

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Speaker 1: the cups until the nineteen sixties, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently Chick fil A was one of the first

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Speaker 2: restaurants to adopt styrofoam cups to go stuff. Right, that

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Speaker 2: was in nineteen sixty I think.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right on the nose from what the Dart Manufacturing

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Speaker 1: Company of Michigan.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so Dart Manufacturing got into this, and they got

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Speaker 2: into it so heavy that they actually ended up changing

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Speaker 2: their name to Dark Container Corporation. They're one of the

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Speaker 2: leading companies or leading producers of what you would consider

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Speaker 2: styrofoam containers. Yeah, so they were the ones that started

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Speaker 2: producing this, started kind of getting it out there, like, Hey,

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Speaker 2: you know how you don't like your customers sitting around

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Speaker 2: taking an hour and a half to drink their coke. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: buy one of our styrofoam cups. They'll just get right

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Speaker 2: out of your hair and somebody else can come in

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Speaker 2: and patronize your restaurant. Right, So it caught on pretty quick.

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Speaker 2: I think seven to eleven was the first chain to

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Speaker 2: actually start using styrofoam cups for coffee, which, as we'll see,

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Speaker 2: was a bad idea right out of the gate. And

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Speaker 2: by the seventies it was like anywhere you went and

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Speaker 2: got coffee, it came in a white And again, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 2: I realized I keep using the word styrofoam. You couldn't

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Speaker 2: do any different than I am right now trying to

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Speaker 2: talk about this.

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Speaker 1: It's impossible, but that just.

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Speaker 2: Became the standard for this whole thing, Like a styrofoam cup,

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Speaker 2: that's what your coffee came in until Starbucks came along.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean for decades basically, and then Starbucks did

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Speaker 1: lead the charge to sort of, you know, get rid

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Speaker 1: of that, and then you know, a bunch of people

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Speaker 1: followed suit, thankfully. But you know, when fast food came

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Speaker 1: along and take out food got more popular, obviously that's

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Speaker 1: gonna grow, grow, growth, the syrophoam business. I'm very glad

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Speaker 1: Livia included this because I would have if she wouldn't have,

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Speaker 1: and you probably would have to. But if you grew

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Speaker 1: up a kid in the eighties, then you remember the

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Speaker 1: McDonald's McDLT. If you don't remember, I think we've mentioned

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Speaker 1: it before, but it was. The idea was they're like, hey,

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Speaker 1: no one wants all this hot, droopy lettuce and steamy

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Speaker 1: tomatoes on their hamburgers. They want that stuff to be cold,

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Speaker 1: and they want their burger to be hot, and they

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Speaker 1: want to do it like you do at home, is

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Speaker 1: you add that stuff right before you put it in

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Speaker 1: your mouth for the right mixture. And that's what the

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Speaker 1: McDLT was. It was not only an offending styrofoam container,

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Speaker 1: but it was a double because you had one side

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Speaker 1: that had keeps the hot stuff hot and the cool

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Speaker 1: side cool. That's right, and none other than Seinfeld's own

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Speaker 1: Jason Alexander Sang and danced in a TV commercial in

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Speaker 1: the eighties extolling the virtues of the McDLT container itself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, wearing a skinny tie. I think he's wearing a

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Speaker 2: blazer with the sleeves rolled up.

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Speaker 1: Even maybe probably pushed.

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Speaker 2: Up like he thinks of nineteen eighty five. Yeah, the

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Speaker 2: thing about the McDLT container, and yeah, if you don't

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Speaker 2: know we're talking about, just go look it up. Once

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Speaker 2: you took the top off, you could actually like close

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Speaker 2: the bottoms together and put your sandwich together, like using

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Speaker 2: your styrofoam container. For those who were like really good at.

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Speaker 1: It, Yeah, I see. I don't know. I never ate

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Speaker 1: that because that wasn't my jam, but it seemed like

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Speaker 1: it would just kind of not do a very great

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Speaker 1: job at that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. No, mcdelt never passed my lips either because of

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Speaker 2: the L and the T. But I have to say,

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Speaker 2: one of the things that makes me really nostalgic for

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Speaker 2: my childhood is looking at old styrophoem McDonald's containers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard not to just see that that yellow

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Speaker 1: container with all the m's all over it. Yep, and

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Speaker 1: not pine for it, but just you know, just like

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Speaker 1: nostalgia does.

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Speaker 2: Definitely takes you back. What knocked me out is, as

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Speaker 2: we'll see, it wasn't until nineteen ninety that they stopped

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Speaker 2: using those things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll get to you know how it's been

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Speaker 1: sort of weeded out here and there, but it's still

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Speaker 1: a booming industry. I think last year worldwide there were

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Speaker 1: fifteen point two million total tons of polystyrene produced, and

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Speaker 1: about sixty percent of that is in the Age of

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Speaker 1: Pacific region. Apparently it's a growing thing, but it's growing

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Speaker 1: much slower in Europe and North America than it is

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Speaker 1: in industrializing areas around the world.

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Speaker 2: Right, most of it goes in the packing industry. I

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Speaker 2: think a third of it is used by packaging industry.

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Speaker 2: Those packing peanuts were invented by a guy named Robert E.

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Speaker 2: Holding back in nineteen sixty five. Household appliances used as

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Speaker 2: another quarter of it. I didn't understand that. I think

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Speaker 2: some of it as packing materials. You know you have

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Speaker 2: to pull all those boards of cyrofoam out of your

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Speaker 2: new refrigerator.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's also in some of the units,

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Speaker 1: like in a washer, aren't there like big chunks of

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Speaker 1: styrofoam is just like air? Yeah, take up airspace.

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Speaker 2: I think that's part of it. And then also like

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Speaker 2: in that same fridge, there's like around the dials and controls.

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Speaker 2: They'll use some for insulation. They don't actually insulate the

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Speaker 2: fridge with it because you can't create an air tight

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Speaker 2: seal between two boards, but they do use it in

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Speaker 2: another place is in the fridge where you don't need

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Speaker 2: an airtight seal.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think this is off to a capital start.

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Speaker 1: Shall we take a break and let you take over?

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Speaker 2: Sure? I think that's a capital idea.

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Speaker 1: All right, we'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Chuck. So we're back, and you said that I

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Speaker 2: would be taking over, and since I'm taking over, I'm

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Speaker 2: in charge and I'm delegating it to you.

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Speaker 1: I can start this part. But you know when did

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Speaker 1: come in because it's part of you know, it's chemistry,

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Speaker 1: and that's famously the only class I ever failed.

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Speaker 2: I'm just fascinated by it. So yeah, this works out

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Speaker 2: just perfectly.

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Speaker 1: That's great. If we're talking about styring today. Another name

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Speaker 1: for it is vinyl benzcene because it is a vinyl.

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Speaker 1: As we'll see, it does not come from a plant

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Speaker 1: like Eddie Simon used back in Germany in the eighteen thirties.

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Speaker 1: The modern process is it starts with you know, it

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Speaker 1: comes from petroleum products these days, and specifically a couple

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Speaker 1: called benzene and ethylene. They're combined with a catalyst called

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Speaker 1: aluminum chloride to eventually produce ethyl benzene. You get that

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Speaker 1: in a gas state process. It at a high temperature

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Speaker 1: with another catalyst. It's a process called dehydrogenating. And finally

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Speaker 1: you have your styrene.

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Speaker 2: Yes, styrene is eight h eight lots of carbon, lots

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Speaker 2: of hydrogen together. Yeah, and in that styrene molecule there

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Speaker 2: are carbon atoms that have a double bond between them, right,

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Speaker 2: which means that they can share one. So when you

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Speaker 2: take styrene a monomer and put a bunch of them

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Speaker 2: together to create a polymer, one of those double bonds

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Speaker 2: kind of opens up and connects to another one and

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Speaker 2: another one another one. It forms a car chained right.

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Speaker 2: But if you look at the I don't know what

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Speaker 2: it's called, but like the chemical drawing, you know of

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Speaker 2: like the molecule with the lines and the seas and

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Speaker 2: the h's and everything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like in most movies that's rendered three D,

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Speaker 1: so you can zoom it around and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Right, this is more like the written out shorthand that

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about. I know what you're talking about. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what mine's called, but whatever that is.

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Speaker 2: For the polystyrene, if you look at it, it's a

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Speaker 2: nice little carbon chain, but then there's these like medallions

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Speaker 2: dangling off of them. Those are called phenol groups. And

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Speaker 2: because of those things, the polymers can't form a really

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Speaker 2: nice crystalline structure, which means that you could it's see through.

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Speaker 2: It's not particularly thick, it's brittle, so it can break,

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Speaker 2: and it's not flexible very much. Right, And I was like, well,

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Speaker 2: wait a minute. Crystal you think about is already see through.

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Speaker 2: But as far as chemistry goes, the more crystalline the

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Speaker 2: structure is, the tighter the whole thing is put together,

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Speaker 2: so the thicker and less see through. It is, so

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Speaker 2: like steel has a very crystalline structure, even though you know,

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Speaker 2: I think rose quartz when I think of a crystalline structure.

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Speaker 2: But that's wrong, wrong, wrong.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. See that's why I'm like good at chemistry. It's

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Speaker 1: not very intuitive, is.

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Speaker 2: It, I know, But I mean this is pretty late

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Speaker 2: in life. It's not like I was a chemistry whiz

358
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Speaker 2: in high school. I'm not even sure if I took

359
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,720
Speaker 2: a chemistry class in high school. Oh yeah, yeah, I

360
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,479
Speaker 2: got out of a lot of stuff. Never took trig.

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Speaker 1: How'd you get out of that stuff?

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Speaker 2: I had my ways?

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, I won't ask any further.

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Speaker 2: So again, if you take the stuff this polystyrene, you

365
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,359
Speaker 2: don't have anything that even resembles a foam cup. You

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Speaker 2: have like what looks like a bunch of pellets that

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Speaker 2: if you mashed together, you would again create a CD

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Speaker 2: jewel case, because that's exactly what they do to create those.

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Speaker 2: You have to go add a couple extra steps to

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Speaker 2: create polystyrene foam.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And you know we said that that stuff

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Speaker 1: was prone to cracking and very breakable. If you came

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Speaker 1: about in the CD jewel case era. Red solo cups too,

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00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,560
Speaker 1: are also the same thing. But you know those CD

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Speaker 1: jewel cases, if you had one long enough, it's going

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Speaker 1: to have a crack in it.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the entire thing.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, there's almost a badge of bonner. Like,

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Speaker 1: look how long I've had this thing. It's you can't

380
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Speaker 1: even see through it anymore. It's cracked all over the place.

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Speaker 2: You can't even see Billy Joel's face.

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Speaker 1: By the way. Well, I think we'll just follow up

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Speaker 1: with the Billy Joel listener mail. But he he announced

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Speaker 1: he has a medical condition and he's canceling his tour

385
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Speaker 1: for now. So it's very sad to see, kind of

386
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Speaker 1: right after we talked about him. I know, jinks hopefully

387
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Speaker 1: he'll be uh, he'll be okay though, but any.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure he will be.

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Speaker 1: So these XPS boards that we keep talking about, the

390
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,160
Speaker 1: capital s dirofoam that's used an insulation and stuff like that.

391
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Speaker 1: How they make that As they melt those little beads

392
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Speaker 1: that you were talking about, those little granules, add chemicals,

393
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,840
Speaker 1: one of which is a blowing agent, and then they

394
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 1: forced that thing through a die as in a dee

395
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Speaker 1: is in like die cast metal.

396
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Speaker 2: Right thing right, And then they're constantly pushing that stuff

397
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,720
Speaker 2: through and it's melting it and pressing it together and

398
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:14,680
Speaker 2: the final product those boards of polystyrene are really smooth,

399
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 2: they're really thick, they're not very they just look really uniform.

400
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 2: And the reason why is because all of those cells,

401
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,359
Speaker 2: all those polystyrene foam pellets that you use in a

402
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 2: beambag chair. They get pressed together so tightly with so

403
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,560
Speaker 2: much pressure and heat that they there's no space between them.

404
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:32,119
Speaker 1: Basically.

405
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Speaker 2: Okay. With expanded polystyrene, the stuff that you make cups

406
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 2: and containers out of, it's it's slightly different. You take

407
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,920
Speaker 2: those same pellets, and like you said, there's a blowing

408
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,920
Speaker 2: agent in there. Both kinds have a blowing agent, but

409
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,679
Speaker 2: they use different ones. And the blowing agent is this

410
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 2: kind of gas that is put into in little tiny

411
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 2: bubbles into the little polystyrene foam pellets. That's what makes

412
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,919
Speaker 2: it foamy. But if you take those same pellets and

413
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,679
Speaker 2: you expose them to steam, they swell up because that

414
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,920
Speaker 2: blowing agent suddenly boils and vaporizes at very low temperatures,

415
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 2: and the pellets expand to like forty times their size,

416
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Speaker 2: and they melt together very easily. And what you have

417
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:22,199
Speaker 2: now is essentially the raw material for expanded polystyrene. That's

418
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 2: why they call it expanded which you can make everything

419
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Speaker 2: from a coffee cup to vintage Santa Claus door ornament face.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exact.

421
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Speaker 2: Do you remember those? Oh?

422
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Speaker 1: Totally?

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Speaker 2: I mean that's another nostalgic. Yeah, I think you can

424
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:39,880
Speaker 2: get them still on like eBay.

425
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Speaker 1: There's a lot of nostalgia around styrofoam if you kind

426
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Speaker 1: of really think about it, if you're a gen xer.

427
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Speaker 2: But that, I mean, that goes to show just how

428
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Speaker 2: what a huge part it was of twentieth century life.

429
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 1: It really was. Yeah, for sure, So we mentioned, you know,

430
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 1: those boards are really great at insulating, which is why

431
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 1: they use it in like sighting sometime and stuff like that,

432
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 1: or in ice cream coolers. One reason is because it

433
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 1: is water resistant. If you have an insulating material that

434
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 1: has moisture in it, that's no good because water conducts

435
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 1: heat really well, so that's one good thing, but they

436
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 1: do degrade over time the board, you know, that blowing

437
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 1: agent will leak out of those cells a little bit

438
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 1: over time, so it's a little less insulating. And while

439
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 1: it is water resistant, it's not completely water resistant. So

440
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: when it does not resist a little bit of water,

441
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 1: it has a really aka absorption, it has a really

442
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: hard time getting rid of it again, So that just

443
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 1: kind of knocks it down over time. But even considering depletion,

444
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: it still has a really good thermal resistance and is

445
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 1: still a really good insulator.

446
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like twice as twice as good, I guess then, Yeah,

447
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 2: that roll out insulation that you can buy.

448
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't think we mentioned early on, you

449
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 1: know they were they used to put like foot thick

450
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 1: cork walls, yeah, in like industrial referators and stuff, and

451
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 1: they could get that down to like two inches of styrofoam,

452
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: so it was really useful.

453
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 2: I don't know if we said this too. It's like

454
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 2: really really cheap to manufacture as well.

455
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, super cheap, And so it sounds like just this

456
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: wonder product. That's everything about it is great. But here's

457
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: where it goes dark. Here's where the VH one behind

458
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 1: the music. It's probably like thirty forty minutes into the

459
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: VH one, right before the commercial break, they'll say, and

460
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,479
Speaker 1: that's when things cut dark. Because, of course, styrene is

461
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 1: dangerous if you're just talking about health problems, central nervous

462
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 1: system problems, headaches, depression, fatigue. Obviously, if you're breathing this

463
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,479
Speaker 1: stuff in, it's no good. It's no good for your

464
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 1: skin and your eyes. And you might think, well, what's

465
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 1: the big deal, because we're not breathing that stuff in,

466
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: But if you work at one of these places, at manufacturers,

467
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: you totally are.

468
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, And they've followed people who work in styrene plants

469
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 2: and found that the neurotoxicity makes them kind of dull

470
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 2: and a little dippy, kind of like you're drunk and

471
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: your reaction times are slower. And we're talking styrene itself,

472
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: the monomer that's the basis of polystyrene foam. Right. Yeah,

473
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 2: it's been shown to cause birth effects, reproductive defects, cancer.

474
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 2: Like you said, it's a bad jam. Polystyrene seems to

475
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 2: be not nearly as dangerous. The problem is the way

476
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 2: that we make polystyrene. There's still styrene that can break

477
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 2: off essentially from the polymer and float around and get

478
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 2: into your body, and that's no good.

479
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think they've since the mid eighties, they've found

480
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: styrene and samples of human fat tissue. Of course, the

481
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: public health organizations are saying, like they do with everything

482
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: like that, like, oh, it's not enough to really worry

483
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 1: about it. Everyone's got a little styrene in their fat,

484
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: don't sweat it. But in twenty eighteen it was bad

485
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: enough as a potential carcinogen that the World Health Organization

486
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: raised it from possible carcinogen to probable carcinogen, and imagine it

487
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: won't be long till they're just like, can we all

488
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: just admit it's a carcinogen.

489
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure that the polystyrene companies are fighting that

490
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,640
Speaker 2: last tooth and nail. Yeah, So we should say that

491
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 2: most of the most of the studies that have shown

492
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 2: like styrene's bad for you, Like we said, looked at

493
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: workers who who work around styrene, and we don't work

494
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: around styrene. We're just podcasters. You probably don't work around

495
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 2: styrene either, So like you said, it's not it's not

496
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 2: like they're not clutching their pearls over this or whatever.

497
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 2: But it does seem like this thing where the more

498
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 2: that we look at it, the more problems we find

499
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 2: from it, and the more we come to understand that

500
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 2: actually there's probably more exposure to styrene than we thought. Like,

501
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 2: if you look across the board, everyone will tell you.

502
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 2: Anyone who knows anything about polystyrene, I should say, well, say,

503
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 2: do not microwave your polystyrene to go container. Yeah, ever, never,

504
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 2: just don't ever do it. Because they found that that

505
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 2: polystyrene can leach styrene into your food, and you eat

506
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 2: that stuff, you don't want to do that. And there's

507
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: even types of containers, polystyrene containers that have like three

508
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 2: little wavy lines and says microwaves safe for microwaveable or

509
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 2: something like that, and those supposedly you can microwaves with

510
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 2: no because what that refers to is the container will

511
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 2: survive it. It has nothing to do with whether or

512
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 2: not there's going to be chemicals leaching into your food.

513
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: They're just saying this container won't melt. In your mind,

514
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 2: that's it. So you never ever ever do that, just

515
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: take the extra step of dumping it onto a plate

516
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: for Pete's sake.

517
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And you know, especially hot things, especially

518
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: acidic things like oh, I don't know, hot coffee. They

519
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: found that, you know, that stuff can leach into your

520
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: body as styrene.

521
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think they said that it starts leeching out

522
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 2: at about one hundred and four degrees fahrenheit forty degrees celsius.

523
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 2: Not that hot.

524
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's used specifically to keep liquids and foods hot,

525
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: I guess, or cold. But you know, but hot is

526
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: the problem.

527
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think it still can leach out when

528
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 2: it's even cool or room temperature, but heat is where

529
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: it really starts to jack up.

530
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: Yeah. So hey, if you get a salad and it's

531
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: in one of those stupid things, put that in a

532
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: nice ceramic bowl as well.

533
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 2: Put it in a solo cup. No, there's a bunch

534
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: of other impacts that it has, specifically environmentally.

535
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: Should we break?

536
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: Are we gonna break? Okay?

537
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: I feel like that's a third act sort of thing.

538
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: Oh okay, Well, man, I'm glad you caught me because

539
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 2: I was about to take off.

540
00:28:49,120 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: Right, you're grounded. We'll be right back, all right, since

541
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: I rudely cut off of Josh Off when he was

542
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: trying to talk about or Joff.

543
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 2: That's a new good new name g E O F

544
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,959
Speaker 2: F your favorite spelling of Jeff. Yeah, but you have

545
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: to say it like Joff. If you're going to go

546
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 2: to the troubles spelling Jeff like Joff, you should say Jeff.

547
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: Anyway, I cut off Jeff when you start to get

548
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: hot on the environment, and so I'm gonna let you

549
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: take it away because the environmental disaster is basically into

550
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: three categories, right yeah.

551
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 2: Air pollution, threats to marine life, and then solid waste.

552
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: Those are the big three environmental impacts. We found that

553
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 2: that it poses.

554
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, the air pollution. You might be thinking, like, well,

555
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't get it, Like it's just blung

556
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: into the air. It's in the manufacturing process. Those blowing

557
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: agents that we talked about used and making both EPs

558
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: and xps. They for decades and decades they were using

559
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: CFCs chlorofluorocarbons, and then everyone's like, now, we can't use

560
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: that stuff anymore. So we stopped using that stuff, and

561
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: they switched over to hydrofluorocarbons in this case specifically HFC

562
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: DASH one thirty four little A. But that stuff's awful too.

563
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really powerful greenhouse gas that traps heat

564
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: fourteen hundred and thirty times more efficiently than carbon dioxide. Man,

565
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 2: that's a lot. They have other stuff that's way worse

566
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 2: than that, But that's still not good, especially considering how

567
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 2: much styrofoam is made every year. Right, Yeah, for sure.

568
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 2: But so that's a problem with the extruded version. Apparently

569
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 2: the expanded version doesn't have nearly the same problem because

570
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: it uses a different blowing agent. The best reason I

571
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 2: could come up with, and this is all supposition, is

572
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 2: that the extra version keeps its blowing agent trapped into

573
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: its structure.

574
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense.

575
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why it uses a different one than the

576
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 2: expanded one. The expanded one, when it's blowing agent vaporizes,

577
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 2: it creates I guess essentially pockets that get filled with air,

578
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: so the blowing agent gets replaced with air. So they

579
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 2: use a much less dangerous or potent greenhouse gas wise,

580
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: gas pentane. It's like ten times more efficient at trapping

581
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 2: heat than carbon dioxide. So you know, big woop. So

582
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: the big problem as far as air pollution goes is

583
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: with the expanded version, the styrophoam version.

584
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. You mentioned threats to marine life. That's

585
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: a pretty obvious one because it's used so much out there.

586
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,479
Speaker 1: Booize again and like any like boogie board or kind

587
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: of floaty thing that you're using, floating docks that I

588
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: mentioned a few times, fish boxes that hold the fish

589
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: that you catch when you're out at sea, and that.

590
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: The same thing is that nineteen fifty seven ice cooler. Yeah.

591
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's a good point. But the problem with all

592
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: this stuff is that when a buoy is floating out

593
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: there that's made a styrofoam or there's a floating dock,

594
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: it's not gonna stay pristine. You know, it's gonna chip away,

595
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: and it's gonna degrade, and it's gonna start to float

596
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: away in little bitty pieces. Birds are coming along and

597
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: eating that stuff. When it's floating on top, it'll get

598
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: heavier as it goes. It'll attract other organisms that make it,

599
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: you know, not floatable, and it will sink and then

600
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: all of a sudden it's eaten in the water and

601
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: on the bottom of the sea floor by other marine animals.

602
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: Yes, And the reason why it starts to break down,

603
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 2: like say, if it's part of your marina dock, is

604
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 2: because it's exposed to sunlight and UV radiation of different

605
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 2: types break down. Polystyrene actually can break it down within

606
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 2: a few years as a matter of fact, when it's

607
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: exposed to sunlight. The problem is is a bunch of

608
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 2: that stuff never gets exposed to sunlight. We throw it

609
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: away and it gets buried in a landfill. And there

610
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 2: are plenty of other types of waste that are not

611
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 2: great to throw into a landfill, but they're biodegradable as

612
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 2: far as we've known. Until very recently, styrofoam is not biodegradable.

613
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 2: It's only chemically degradable, and it takes centuries for it

614
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 2: to chemically degrade within a landfill. And because they're so

615
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: big and bulky, even though they're very light, they're still

616
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 2: usually in large shapes or they can be. They take

617
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: up a lot of space in those landfills. So they

618
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 2: take up a lot of space, and they don't break

619
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: down to free up space for again centuries, which someone

620
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 2: pointed out, I believe that essentially every piece of styrofoam

621
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 2: that was ever made is still around in some shape

622
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: or form on Earth.

623
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's not the kind of like staying power

624
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: that should inspire you.

625
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 2: Right. Well, the thing something that stuck out to me, Chuck,

626
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: when you said earlier about how they're derived from petrol petrochemicals.

627
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: The fact that styrene is found in petroleum. Petroleum is

628
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: compressed ancient plant matter, right, Yeah, So that styrene that

629
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 2: was originally in plants is still around millions of millions

630
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 2: of hours later in the petroleum that we're extracting from

631
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,439
Speaker 2: the ground. That just goes to show you the kind

632
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: of staying power that thing has.

633
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, Wow, that's incredible. Yeah, because of all these problems,

634
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: of course, there's been many movements over the years to

635
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: get rid of it. It depends on the state you

636
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: live in, probably, or maybe even the community that you

637
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 1: live in. What kinds of bands have been put into place.

638
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: I think Berkeley, California, no surprise, and Suffolk County, New

639
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: York again no surprise, were the first communities in the

640
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties to put a band in place for this stuff. Yeah,

641
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: fourteen different states have enacted bands on styrofoam. They don't

642
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: always hold up because, of course, you've got these companies

643
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: that are going to fight them tooth and nail. You said,

644
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: fight them in court. You've also got city governments and

645
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: aren't necessarily going to enforce stuff too, right, Yeah.

646
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 2: They tend to be very shy about getting sued, especially

647
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 2: when their budgets are kind of tight. Right. Yeah, So

648
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 2: if you're a big, bad plastic company. Apparently Dark Container

649
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 2: is one of the more aggressive players in this in

650
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 2: lobbying for styrofoam to stick around, all you have to

651
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 2: do is show up and be like, you know, we

652
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 2: would hate to sue you guys into bankruptcy. This seems

653
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 2: like a really nice town and the city's going to

654
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: be like, I don't even remember the styrofoam ban you're

655
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: talking about.

656
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, or we'd hate to close down these warehouses that

657
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: employ people in your state, right, which is what they

658
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,439
Speaker 1: did in Maryland. Maryland banned the home and the Dark

659
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: Container company shut down two warehouses. They're employed close to

660
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: one hundred workers, and that is how they played that game.

661
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, they did it in California too, in twenty twenty four.

662
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 2: They put one hundred and seventy five of their workers

663
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: out of work. And they always say, well, it's because

664
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 2: of this ban. What I understand, these bands don't affect

665
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,760
Speaker 2: like warehousing or transportation of this stuff within the state

666
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 2: or outside of the state. It just seems like it's

667
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 2: a vindictive move.

668
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: It probably helps her bottom line, I would imagine in

669
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 1: some way.

670
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: I guess. I don't know. But from from what I understand,

671
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 2: the aggressive lobbying that they engage in, it, I don't know.

672
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 2: It seems like, I mean, they really want Syrophoam to

673
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 2: stick around, and they're fighting a tougher and tougher battle

674
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 2: each year.

675
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: Now, Yeah, I think what I meant was, I bet

676
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: they're not financially hurting their company by shuttering these warehouses.

677
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 2: No, I'm not. I'm sure not. I'm sure even if

678
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 2: they do, it's negligible, you know, to punish a state

679
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 2: into submission.

680
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 1: There's also pressure campaigns. You know. McDonald's is one of

681
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: the early ones in the nineteen eighties, and I guess

682
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: if they quit in the nineties. It was kind of

683
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: fully in the eighties when people like human beings would

684
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: you know, protest or just sort of raise a ruckus

685
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: over this stuff. And they got together and there were

686
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: a few tries that like, hey, you shouldn't worry about

687
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 1: it too much, because we do it this way, we

688
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: only use this much. They really wanted to hang on

689
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 1: to them. But finally, like you mentioned in nineteen ninety,

690
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 1: they said, all right, we'll use paper. And you know,

691
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: you should be housing that cheeseburger the second it gets

692
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: into your car anyway, right, Yeah.

693
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 2: Pretty much. I mean just tell them to put it

694
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 2: in your hands without even a paper wrapper.

695
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess if you've got to get

696
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: it and you can't eat it in your car, I

697
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 1: have to carry it somewhere. It's not gonna be as hot.

698
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: But I don't know house. I mean, housing fast food

699
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 1: in the cars is a rich tradition that needs to

700
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: be upheld.

701
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: For sure, ever since there were cars, and ever since

702
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 2: they were fast food.

703
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, how else are you going to find, you know,

704
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 1: three year old French fries under your car seat when

705
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: you vacuum it. That look exactly the same as they

706
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: did the day they got down there.

707
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 2: They don't taste quite the same, but they do look

708
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 2: like it, don't they.

709
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, so a.

710
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 2: Lot of people say, okay, well we got all this polystyrene,

711
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 2: and it does provide a lot of benefits, even though

712
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 2: it seems like the health and environmental benefits are kind

713
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 2: of racking up against it. Maybe there's something we can

714
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 2: do to recycle it instead. And kind of at the outset,

715
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 2: you were pointing out just how hard it is to

716
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 2: recycle this stuff. And one reason why it's so hard

717
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 2: is because these are big, oftentimes bulky items, especially when

718
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 2: you put a bunch of style. I mean you can

719
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 2: attest if Emily's collecting stuff, it's a nightmare. Yeah, it

720
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 2: takes up a lot of space. Even though it's all light.

721
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 2: You could lift all of it with one hand, but

722
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 2: it takes up a lot of space. Right, So, if

723
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 2: you have a truck that is spending a bunch of

724
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 2: money on gas to haul recyclables to a recycling center,

725
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 2: and then they get paid for that load in return

726
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 2: that styrofoam. I mean they get paid by the pound,

727
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: So that styrofoam takes up a whole truck, but it

728
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: does not add up to a lot of money. So

729
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 2: no one wants to haul this stuff. That's one problem.

730
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 2: And that problem also belies an a pro styrofoam argument

731
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 2: that you'll frequently run into, and that is that it

732
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 2: has a small carbon footprint because it's so light, it

733
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 2: takes so little gas and fuel of all kinds to

734
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: transport it by ocean rail truck. The problem is is

735
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 2: you still have that bulky thing, so you actually are

736
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 2: probably hiring more transportation to move styrofoam stuff because yeah,

737
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 2: it's light, but it takes up a lot of space

738
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 2: in the truck. So I think that that's kind of

739
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,959
Speaker 2: a in disingenuous argument in favor of styrofoam.

740
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: I think you're probably right. Another problem with recycling it

741
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: is a lot of the foams will have pigments in them.

742
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: They might be colored, or they may have flame retardants

743
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: that make it not as or completely unrecyclable. Along with

744
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 1: food contamination, and then, like I mentioned at the beginning,

745
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: just the cost of this, it's pretty cheap to make,

746
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: so there's not a lot of incentives for company to

747
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 1: try and recycle it. There's a little more promise in

748
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 1: upcycling it by breaking it down into its various chemical constituents,

749
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: some of which have some pretty high value. But as

750
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: far as recycling, it just doesn't make a lot of

751
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: cost effective sense for a company or a recycling firm.

752
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 2: Right. I was reading a J Store Daily article on this,

753
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 2: and they profile a company in Oregon called Aegilicks and

754
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 2: they upcycle styrofoam into petroleum. Again, they turn it back

755
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,959
Speaker 2: into too crude oil, which can in turn be used

756
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 2: for like jet fuel and other like really high quality fuels.

757
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 2: But that they're definitely not. They're in the minority as

758
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 2: far as recycling companies go.

759
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Another thing, if you're you know, into

760
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: helping the environment and recycling and stuff like that, don't

761
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: be fooled just because you see the little chasing arrows

762
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: recycling symbol, because that is on so many things. You

763
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 1: have to look at the number and then know what

764
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: that number means, and you know, you can look all

765
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: that stuff up but the ones and twos are generally,

766
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,959
Speaker 1: although not entirely consistently recycled, that they have the best

767
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: chance at being recycled. But something with a number six

768
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: on it, it's probably not being recycled.

769
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 2: No, that's polystyrene's number, and it, like I mean, for

770
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 2: all the reasons we just said it, Like you said,

771
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 2: it's probably not being recycled. And apparently some environmentalists say

772
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 2: that whole chasing arrows application for the plastics was basically

773
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 2: made up by plastic companies to make you feel like, oh, Okay,

774
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 2: this thing can be recycled. I don't have to feel

775
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 2: bad about using it for two minutes and then throwing

776
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 2: it away. Yeah, so there are Like I said, up

777
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 2: until very recently, styrofoam was considered to be non biodegradable,

778
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 2: and there are not many things, including plastics, that are

779
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 2: not biodegradable. Right, they're starting to find that there are

780
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,879
Speaker 2: some might crobes out there that have an ability to

781
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 2: break it down. Apparently they're found in the guts of

782
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,919
Speaker 2: meal worms, wax worms, yeah, some kinds of insect larvae,

783
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 2: and that these things will feed on cyrofoam and they

784
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 2: will break it down. So thoroughly that you could actually

785
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 2: eat these worms afterwards. It's just metabolized into harmless stuff.

786
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 2: And even the solid waste they excreete just keep it

787
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 2: in the soil and eat food grown from the soil.

788
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 2: The problem is is this is a really new kind

789
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 2: of revelation as far as I know, and it takes

790
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 2: a lot of those things to break down styrofoam, and

791
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:41,280
Speaker 2: we're making way more syrofoam than these worms can possibly handle.

792
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, the size of that worm farm would

793
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 1: be tremendously large. But you did fine. I mean, boy,

794
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 1: you texted me yesterday that something can actually melt styrofoam.

795
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: I'm gonna let you say what it is. But my question,

796
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: my friend, is does that is there an application for

797
00:42:58,560 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 1: that or is that just a factoid?

798
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 2: This is something you can do, like if you I

799
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: hate packing peanuts and so I've done this before with them,

800
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 2: but it's it's a slog so probably people can actually

801
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 2: do it. But any organic solvent, and in particular acetone

802
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 2: that's one I've always used, can dissolve styrofoam into basically nothing.

803
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 2: You can take an entire beambag chair worth of pellets

804
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 2: and melt it. All down into nothingness in a cup

805
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,240
Speaker 2: of acetone. It's really neat to see.

806
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: And oh, just like very slowly adding it in.

807
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, little by little, But it doesn't take

808
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 2: very long for it to break down. It's not like

809
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 2: instantly dissolving. But it's not you know, days or anything

810
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:40,479
Speaker 2: like that either.

811
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: And doesn't that create probably some awful thing. I mean,

812
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 1: you don't want to chase that down out of the

813
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: solo cup, right?

814
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: No? I still have that mason jar of acetone with

815
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 2: syrophoam in it because I have no idea what to

816
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:51,399
Speaker 2: do with it now.

817
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 1: I think you spur it in the backyard and forget

818
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: about it.

819
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 2: I'll just drop it off at a number six recycling center.

820
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 2: Oh great, you got anything else about styrofoam?

821
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: I got nothing else. Try and avoid it if you can.

822
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, yeh, since Chuck told you to avoid styrofoam, obviously, everybody.

823
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:11,879
Speaker 2: That means it's time for listener mail.

824
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: That's right, promised to Billy Joel, And here we go

825
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: from Levi and hang Zuo. China was giving me a

826
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,399
Speaker 1: little bit of a break when I bagged on one

827
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: of my favorite performer songs. We didn't start the fire,

828
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 1: He said, Chuck, You're in good company, because Billy Joel

829
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,959
Speaker 1: himself is called we Didn't start the Fire the worst

830
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: musical thing I've ever written, calling out the simplicity of

831
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 1: its musical structure. Someone who has only recently gotten into

832
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: his music that has personally ranked all of his one

833
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: hundred and seventeen studio recordings, Wow, you went hard. I

834
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 1: tend to agree. Fun song, but it doesn't hold a

835
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: candle to the rest of the catalog. As for his

836
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: best and favorite, he's cited scenes from an Italian restaurant

837
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: great song, and you may be right, I know that

838
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: one great song off of Glass Houses Okay, as two

839
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: of his favorites. And if Josh hasn't heard Miami twenty seventeen,

840
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: the one you mentioned, make sure he starts with the

841
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 1: live version from these songs in the attic album miles

842
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,280
Speaker 1: better than the studio version. Of my opinion, keep repping

843
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: the piano man, and that is Levi and hang Zou China.

844
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: And he sent a link to the YouTube of the

845
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: Howard Stern appearance where Billy Joel called that his worst

846
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,839
Speaker 1: musical outing and he was like, the lyrics are fine,

847
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 1: he said, I don't hate the song, but he just

848
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,919
Speaker 1: said musically it's just very simplistic and not my best work.

849
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 2: I mean, I think everybody can basically agree that.

850
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, but mister Joel, we wish you good health and recovery.

851
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: He got a lot of fans thinking about you and

852
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: your family right now.

853
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:46,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great, Chuck. I think that this Billy Joel

854
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,399
Speaker 2: saga should just continue. Every third, fourth, fifth listener mail

855
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 2: should be about Billy Joel.

856
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: I think I hope so. And you know, I didn't

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Speaker 1: even mention the deep cut, so maybe we'll just surprise

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Speaker 1: people here and there.

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Speaker 2: With those yeap, just pay him out slowly, man, patients. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: if you want to be like Levi and you're in

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00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:05,839
Speaker 2: China or anywhere else and want to get in touch

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Speaker 2: with this about Billy Joel or anything else, you can

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Speaker 2: send us email to Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

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Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts Myheartradio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.