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Speaker 1: When I heard that she was potentially like out of prison,

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Speaker 1: I was just like, hide your old rich men, hide them,

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Speaker 1: hide your money and your old rich men. Because she

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Speaker 1: is on the prow. I am sure that is going

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Speaker 1: to be the name.

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Speaker 2: Of this episode, hide your Old rich Men. Yes, because

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Speaker 2: every episode we title it with something prophetic that was

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Speaker 2: said by someone, and that said ding.

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Speaker 1: Ding ding ding ding, Hide Them.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jonathan Walton and this is a bonus episode of

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Speaker 2: Queen of the Khan The Athlete Whispering, Episode seven, Hide

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Speaker 2: Your Old rich Men. I'm sitting down with one of

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Speaker 2: the incredible TV producers of that beet documentary, American gangster

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Speaker 2: Trap Queens, Peggy Fulford. Her name is Andrena Hale, and

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Speaker 2: she's the one who made that insane prison call happen

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Speaker 2: between con artist Peggy Fulford and her biggest victim, NFL

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Speaker 2: running back Ricky Williams. And Andrena's got some juicy insight

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Speaker 2: to share about Peggy and Elkin and about the man

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Speaker 2: who Peggy claims actually stole the money from her that

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Speaker 2: she stole from all those athletes.

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Speaker 1: I'm Andrina Hale. I am a showrunner, executive producer of

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Speaker 1: Unscripted television.

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Speaker 2: I'm so excited to talk to you. Oh my god,

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Speaker 2: you've worked on some big shows.

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Speaker 1: I have worked on some big shows.

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Speaker 2: Impressive resume.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've worked on American Gangster Trap, Queens, Hip Hop Treasures,

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Speaker 1: time of essence. What else have I done? I've done

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Speaker 1: a lot. I've done game shows, Celebrity Squares, The Great

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Speaker 1: Christmas Light Fight.

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Speaker 2: Ooh, I love that.

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Speaker 1: That is a fun show to do every year.

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Speaker 2: I gotta tell you, American Gangster Trap Queens, Peggy Fulford,

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Speaker 2: I was just in awe. Just round of applause to

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Speaker 2: you and your team. Thank you. I was in awe.

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Speaker 2: I was riveted the entire time. But the most riveting part,

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Speaker 2: of course, was that prison interview that you miraculously were

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Speaker 2: able to somehow. I can't even figure out how schedule

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Speaker 2: with the Bureau of Prisons with Peggy, with Ricky Williams

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Speaker 2: and his people like you needed so many yesses to

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Speaker 2: make that happen. It just seems like an impossible task.

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Speaker 2: Talk to me about that. How how did that come about?

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Speaker 1: Well, it was probably harder to get Ricky Williams than

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Speaker 1: it was to get the prison on board. Peggy is

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Speaker 1: a very persuasive woman, and you know she's made friends

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Speaker 1: in prison. She did at the time, so it was

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Speaker 1: easy to sort of, you know, navigate and figure out

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Speaker 1: what time she was going to call in for the

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Speaker 1: video chat. But it was harder to get Ricky to

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Speaker 1: agree to it because you know, it wasn't a very

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Speaker 1: great time in his life and he had really trusted Peggy.

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Speaker 1: So he thought about it long and hard, and he

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Speaker 1: talked to us about it, and then finally he agreed

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Speaker 1: to do it because he figured, you know, he hadn't

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Speaker 1: spoken to Peggy since since probably like a couple a

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Speaker 1: year or two before she went to prison, so he

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Speaker 1: was just like interested to hear what she had to say.

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Speaker 1: So we just happened to capture it.

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Speaker 2: Because Peggy has her way with guys.

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Speaker 1: Oh, she absolutely does. I tell Peggy, it's like, tell

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Speaker 1: me some of your tricks, because she'll be done with

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Speaker 1: one and on to the next day, overlap like constantly.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, can they just get her for like like

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Speaker 1: multiple marriages like not being Yeah, yes, she's definitely done

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Speaker 1: that admittedly, Yes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the prosecutor said so. In the in the Sensing hearing,

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Speaker 2: she scammed her last husband because she married him while

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Speaker 2: she was still married to someone else, so she couldn't

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Speaker 2: really marry him.

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Speaker 1: Well, we tried to get Fulford. He so the first

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Speaker 1: producer that you reached out to Shanna. Shanna was like,

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Speaker 1: she's like a dog with a bone, so she I

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Speaker 1: think she friended him on like Facebook and then like

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Speaker 1: sent him a message and then he sent her like

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Speaker 1: a curious message back, and then he stopped responding. But

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Speaker 1: he would have been interesting to get because Peggy insists

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Speaker 1: that all of the money that they had, Fulford took

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Speaker 1: it all, mister doctor Fulford, because I feel like he

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Speaker 1: was a dentist.

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Speaker 2: Or something, an orthodontist.

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Speaker 1: But she felt like Elkin felt like too, that he

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Speaker 1: finessed her. He was just like she didn't. Elkin said,

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Speaker 1: She's done all these years of finessing and then she

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Speaker 1: gets this young guy who finessed her and then he

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Speaker 1: took all of the money, so which could be could

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Speaker 1: be true? I mean, but did they That's the other

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Speaker 1: thing is just like what happened to all the millions?

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Speaker 1: Like I know they spent a lot on Bentley's and

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Speaker 1: houses and clothes and that kind of thing, but trips

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Speaker 1: and trips. But that doctor Fulford, he may have gotten

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Speaker 1: away with.

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Speaker 2: Like or if she's a brilliant con, she might have

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Speaker 2: stashed some away in a Swiss bank account that nobody

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Speaker 2: knows about, you know, once money leaves the country. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and there were so many other countries like the Cayman Islands,

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Speaker 2: so she might have a nest egg with Ricky Williams,

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Speaker 2: Dennis Rodman, all these athletes money.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if we had more time, we would have

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Speaker 1: tried to push for that doctor Fulford because I wanted

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Speaker 1: to know, like what he was.

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Speaker 2: I think he was an orthodonist because she mentions an

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Speaker 2: orthodonist in her sentencing hearing. She's like, I want to

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Speaker 2: correct something you're on her. They're saying, you know, I

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Speaker 2: didn't have any money whatever, but I was married to

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Speaker 2: wealthy people, an anesthesiologist, an orthodontist. Like all the cars,

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Speaker 2: the maserati, the roll's voice. It was in their name,

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Speaker 2: you know they so it wasn't you know they had money,

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Speaker 2: That's what she said. Yeah, but I don't think. I

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Speaker 2: don't think he's a scar Like if you're an orthodonist,

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Speaker 2: do not a scammer.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't think he was a scammer.

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Speaker 2: Something you said struck me. So Peggy had made friends

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Speaker 2: in prison, like you mean, like with administrators and stuff,

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Speaker 2: like they liked her.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because Peggy's a very likable person. You know.

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Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time like with you know,

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Speaker 1: as much time as you could with somebody who's in prison,

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Speaker 1: but like on phones and like video chats and like

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Speaker 1: through letters. And she's a very persuasive, like charismatic woman.

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Speaker 1: She's beautiful even in prison, Like we would have these

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Speaker 1: video chats and her hair would still be done and

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Speaker 1: while she didn't really have makeup on, she still looked

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Speaker 1: really great. She didn't have her veneers anymore, so you

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Speaker 1: could see her crooked teeth, but there was something still

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Speaker 1: very beautiful about her. And she's just very sweet and warm.

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Speaker 1: So you got a chance to see like how she

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Speaker 1: was able to, you know, dupe the people that she

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Speaker 1: was involved with, because she's just she just comes off

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Speaker 1: very sweet. I think that she might be in a

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Speaker 1: halfway house. I'm not really sure she is.

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Speaker 2: In a halfway house in Orlando. Oh she is, okay,

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Speaker 2: So that's where she has some freedom. She can get

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Speaker 2: a job, but she is monitored and has to check

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Speaker 2: in frequently. But she's free to make calls and get

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Speaker 2: work setting up this call dealing with the prison. You

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Speaker 2: got the impression that the people in the prison liked her.

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Speaker 2: In one of the help her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she had. There was one one person I don't

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Speaker 1: remember what his name was, but this man, and she

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Speaker 1: was you know, got really friendly with him, and then

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Speaker 1: expadded the paperwork, you know, so that she would agree

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Speaker 1: to like be on the show. So yeah, she'd you know,

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Speaker 1: and she'd made some friends with like other prisoners too,

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Speaker 1: whom you know, she appeared to try to like help out.

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Speaker 2: I've been investigating con artists for gosh going on six

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Speaker 2: years now, and I have never in all the cases

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Speaker 2: I've ever looked into and all the victims I've spoken to,

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Speaker 2: which have been hundreds hundreds, I have never seen a scenario,

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Speaker 2: and I'm a victim where a victim gets to confront

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Speaker 2: their con artist after the fact, after the conviction. I've

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Speaker 2: never seen that. It was so groundbreaking this scene in

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Speaker 2: your documentary. I was just stunned. What was your reaction

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Speaker 2: to what made you think you could do this?

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Speaker 1: We just ask, wow, you know what I mean? We

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Speaker 1: just ask, because Ricky is like a super chill guy,

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Speaker 1: what was your.

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Speaker 2: Take on his reaction. Did you think he would forgive her?

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Speaker 1: I wasn't sure.

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Speaker 2: How did you think if it were me? I would

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Speaker 2: have gone the f off. I would have started yelling

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Speaker 2: at you. Yeah, right, And I only got taken for

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Speaker 2: like one hundred grand, But if it was like six

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Speaker 2: million or whatever, and I would have just like you, mother,

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Speaker 2: I would have just let it go because it would

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Speaker 2: have been like cathartic, you know, because victims don't get that.

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Speaker 2: Victims don't get to confront their connartists exactly.

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Speaker 1: So this is like a I think because of their

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Speaker 1: like their intimate relationship, whether it was like physical or not,

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Speaker 1: I think that and because of his like kind nature.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the reason why he didn't go off

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Speaker 1: on her, because I too would have gone off on her,

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Speaker 1: like definitely would have gone off on her, but he didn't.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I commend him for that because I would

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Speaker 1: have acted up. I would have definitely acted up and

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Speaker 1: cussed her out. I mean, she cleaned him out, like

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Speaker 1: you know, she cleaned him out.

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Speaker 2: She cleaned him out, and he seems to almost blame himself,

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Speaker 2: which shocked me. Yeah, and this is the thing I've

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Speaker 2: seen again because we interviewed Rashad McCanns, and he kind

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Speaker 2: of blamed himself too. He said it was my fault.

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Speaker 2: I should have been paying more attention.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean to a certain degree. You have to

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Speaker 1: take responsibility for it. There's nobody. One of the things

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Speaker 1: that I learned very early in the entertainment business because

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Speaker 1: I started my career in music, is I read an

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Speaker 1: article where Madonna's first money manager, Bert Padell, told her.

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Speaker 2: The singularly greatest piece of financial advice she'd ever heard.

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Speaker 2: After the break Welcome back to Queen of the con

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Speaker 2: and my conversation with documentary producer and showrunner and Drina Hale.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I learned very early in

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Speaker 1: the entertainment business because I started my career in music

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Speaker 1: is I read an article where Madonna's first money manager,

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Speaker 1: Bert Padell, told her never signed, Never give anybody check

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Speaker 1: signing power. Sign all of your own checks. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: matter how many checks they are, so that you know

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Speaker 1: exactly what you're putting your name on, what money is

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Speaker 1: going where. And so that is some of something that

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Speaker 1: she had learned, and it's something that I heard very

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Speaker 1: early on. So it's true, like you have to take

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Speaker 1: some responsibility. If they were looking over their own finances

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Speaker 1: and they were looking at where the money was going to,

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Speaker 1: and they only had signing off and didn't give her

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Speaker 1: power to sign off, then she wouldn't have been able

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Speaker 1: to do what she did, and she probably would have

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Speaker 1: dropped them as clients or whatever. Yeah, exactly, and just

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Speaker 1: like moved.

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Speaker 2: On to some other You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right,

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Speaker 2: because that's one of her things, is the first click

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Speaker 2: in her game. She gets power of attorney, that's her thing.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: And by then she's got them all roped in. Let

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Speaker 2: me help you, let me take care of you, let

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Speaker 2: me protect you from the scammers.

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Speaker 1: Exactly.

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Speaker 2: That was her in Ironically, she's the.

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Speaker 1: Scammer, exactly, and she blames it on her mental health.

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Speaker 2: I've literally cataloged everything she's ever said publicly about this case. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I get whiplash from it all. Okay, So first,

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Speaker 2: she says it's an FBI set up. Have you heard that?

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Speaker 2: She didn't say that in your.

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Speaker 1: Documentary, No, but she said that on the phone.

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Speaker 2: She said that, Yeah, the FBI forged documents and presented

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Speaker 2: and she said the FBI agent came to her house

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Speaker 2: and told her, I don't care. This just sounds like

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Speaker 2: an FBI, right, I don't care if you're guilty or innocent.

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Speaker 2: You're going down. So she says that, then she says,

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Speaker 2: oh no, no, no, in court. It's the mania. She's got

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Speaker 2: this mania that she has all these highs and she

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Speaker 2: has a you know, a false perception of reality. And

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Speaker 2: that's why she created eighty five bank accounts. Like have

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Speaker 2: you ever you've opened a bank account? How hard is

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Speaker 2: it to just open one?

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Speaker 1: Exactly right?

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Speaker 2: You need so many documentation, your driver's license, you're this,

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Speaker 2: your proof of this, you're this, you're number three. Let's like,

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Speaker 2: it's so hard to just open one. You need to

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Speaker 2: be hyper focused. So how can she have this mental

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Speaker 2: illness where she doesn't know what she's doing to open

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Speaker 2: eighty five bank accounts and to be dancing the money

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Speaker 2: in and out of all of them.

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Speaker 1: She knew exactly what she was doing, exactly what she

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Speaker 1: was doing.

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Speaker 2: So that mania thing doesn't hold up now.

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Speaker 1: And apparently, like according to her son Alcin, who I

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Speaker 1: did spend a lot of time with, because you have

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Speaker 1: to talk to oh, I know him to be part

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Speaker 1: of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and oh and he was like compelling as hell

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Speaker 2: in your in your documentary, compelling as hell.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. It was months of speaking to him, but he

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Speaker 1: shared that he thought that like Peggy had been scamming

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Speaker 1: since she was like since they had lived in Illinois,

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Speaker 1: some town in Illinois, and thought that there was some

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Speaker 1: what is it like medical fraud there and so that's

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Speaker 1: why they left Illinois and went to Atlanta.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, and how involved do you think he

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Speaker 2: was in all of this? Because he's given conflicting stories

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Speaker 2: as well, because he's done a few interviews, and in

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Speaker 2: one interview he'll say, I had no idea this was

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Speaker 2: going on. I thought we were on the up and up.

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Speaker 2: I was just managing Dennis Rodman. I wasn't part of anything.

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Speaker 2: But meanwhile he's pretending to be her brother. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: he is placating and pacifying Dennis Rodman while she's robbing

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Speaker 2: him blind like it's it's you know, to the to

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Speaker 2: the untrained eye, it appears as if in a lot

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Speaker 2: of her victims have said he was in on it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because they feel that way too. I think that,

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Speaker 1: like he too, has a very complicated relationship with his mother.

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Speaker 1: She didn't raise him. He was raised by his grandparents

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Speaker 1: and his uncle. He had a very tragic upbringing. There's

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Speaker 1: mental health illness there. But I do think that he

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Speaker 1: knew what was going on. I think that he knew

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Speaker 1: and then, like you know, maybe Peggy took like the

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Speaker 1: complete fall because she didn't want him to go to

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Speaker 1: prison too. It's her way to like protect her son.

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Speaker 2: In that be et trap Queen's Dock, Peggy is given

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Speaker 2: a wide berth to tell her side of the story

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Speaker 2: and to fully explain herself though that prison call with

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Speaker 2: Ricky Williams steals the show.

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Speaker 3: But you know what, Richie's with all my heart, I

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Speaker 3: will make you home.

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Speaker 1: I will make you proud of me. I'm proud of you.

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Speaker 4: Then I will.

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Speaker 2: Take care of yourself, all right, I will, okay, all right.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember if he said it on camera or not,

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Speaker 1: but I know that we talked to about it after

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Speaker 1: I said, do you you know, how do you feel?

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Speaker 1: Do you think that Peggy is remorseful? Do you think

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Speaker 1: that like you guys could have some sort of relationship,

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Speaker 1: because she really wanted to have a relationship with with

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Speaker 1: Ricky and even asked me well after the show had aired,

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Speaker 1: if I would like reach out to him on her

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Speaker 1: behalf to at least have them talk, and he just

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Speaker 1: was like no, thank god, I know. And then when

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Speaker 1: I did ask him that, I said, do you think

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Speaker 1: she's remorseful? He was like, no, she's just going to

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Speaker 1: come out and do the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Thank god. Okay, So yeah, he forgives her, but he's

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Speaker 2: not done that. You can forgive, but you can't invite

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Speaker 2: the same abaser back into your life.

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Speaker 1: No, And he's just like he thinks that she's going

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Speaker 1: to scam somebody else's. It's just who she is, is

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Speaker 1: how he put it.

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Speaker 2: What was your take on Chantelle Cohen. Chantelle Cohen was

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Speaker 2: Ricky William's lifelong friend and worked as Peggy's assistant for

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Speaker 2: a short time until Peggy didn't pay her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Chanteal was great Pegg. Peggy just always like downplayed it,

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Speaker 1: like we weren't really that close, and I'm just like, well,

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Speaker 1: Chantell seems.

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Speaker 2: She knows some details.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, you guys were really close, and Chantelle was

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Speaker 1: really hurt. So but Peggy just like dismissed her. She

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Speaker 1: was just like she was nobody. I don't know why

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Speaker 1: she's so upset. She didn't It's not like she lost

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Speaker 1: any money or anything happened to her. And I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: Ricky is her best friend and she's still she's part

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Speaker 1: of like Ricky's management team.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Chantelle, she was amazing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, So like no, I really liked Chantal and

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Speaker 1: I felt like she was really hurt and she did

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Speaker 1: look up to Peggy, and Peggy was just you know,

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Speaker 1: just being like a mean girl to her, like you know,

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Speaker 1: in the end.

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Speaker 2: In the end.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Chantel witnesses early on the Crack and the story where

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Speaker 2: she tells the story of she got drunk one night

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Speaker 2: with Elkin. They were up partying and they came back

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Speaker 2: and he slipped. He called her my mom. She's like, wait,

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Speaker 2: what what what And he's like, don't ever talk about this.

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Speaker 2: We don't talk our family business. Because Peggy had painted

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Speaker 2: the picture that she never had kids. Look at this body.

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Speaker 2: Could I have kids with a body like this?

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Speaker 1: Like psycho, Psycho? I feel worse for the kids too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, how can how can you be a

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Speaker 2: normal child with a mother like that, who first is like,

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Speaker 2: pretend to be my aunt. No, no, pretend to be my brother.

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Speaker 1: It's like now, and with Elkin, you know, he'd lost

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Speaker 1: his dad in a plane crash, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: I feel like if his dad had lived and he

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Speaker 1: had lived with his dad, he would have been a

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Speaker 1: completely different person, because he's not a horrible person, but

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Speaker 1: you know, having lost your dad at a young age,

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Speaker 1: your mom dips out and leaves you with your grandparents.

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Speaker 1: Apparently his grandfather and his uncle were abusive to him,

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Speaker 1: but he also his uncle was murdered, and so right

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Speaker 1: after his uncle was murdered, he like literally held his

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Speaker 1: uncle's the way he tells it, like held his dead

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Speaker 1: uncle in his arms and waited for the ems to come.

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Speaker 1: And his uncle's brains had been shot out. So to

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Speaker 1: have to have endured that and then not had the

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Speaker 1: mother like somebody who was like really caring can be

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Speaker 1: really devastating for a child. And then the only person

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Speaker 1: who showed him any kind of love and protection was

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Speaker 1: his grandmother, and then when she died, it was just like,

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Speaker 1: you know, he just went. I think that that's really

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Speaker 1: when his life completely crumbled. Because had his grandmother lived,

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Speaker 1: I think she would have been able to like stabilize

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Speaker 1: him more. But Peggy was just not interested in that.

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Speaker 1: She told me that she had her driver's license. She's

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Speaker 1: in her sixties, but she something with her driver's license

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Speaker 1: had her ten years younger.

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Speaker 2: Than she Ye talked about that too with me.

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Speaker 3: And the DMV happened to mess up on her ID

365
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Speaker 3: and had her like, I.

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Speaker 5: Feel like ten years younger.

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Speaker 3: Something ridiculous of Once all the paperwork came out and

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Speaker 3: it said like her real age.

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Speaker 5: We were like, you have to be kidding me.

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Speaker 2: Yes, did the DMV mess up or did she have

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Speaker 2: a fake ID?

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Speaker 5: She told me the DMV messed up, Yes.

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Speaker 2: I mean Okham's raiser. What's more likely DMV messed up

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Speaker 2: or she faked idea?

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Speaker 5: She probably faked ID. The DMV messed up the DMV.

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Speaker 2: Miss Oh my god.

377
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Speaker 5: Yes, that's a good one though, Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 2: And Chantelle isn't the only one fooled by Peggy. Even

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Speaker 2: after realizing she's a con artist, she's a.

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Speaker 1: Very persuasive, like charismatic woman.

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Speaker 2: While she was going through the process, she followed multiple

382
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Speaker 2: motions for early release. She made multiple cases. According to Chantelle,

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Speaker 2: she convinced one of these producers on one of these

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Speaker 2: docs to like write her a letter and make the

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Speaker 2: case to the judge why she should be released. Early

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Speaker 2: and why she's a good person. And this producer contacted chantel,

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Speaker 2: can you write a letter to help Peggy.

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Speaker 3: One of the shows that I did, I remember the

389
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Speaker 3: producer called me and and the way that the producer

390
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Speaker 3: was talking to me, I knew that Peggy got into

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Speaker 3: this person's head.

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Speaker 5: And the producer wanted me to.

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Speaker 3: Write a letter on the behalf of her, and I

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Speaker 3: was like, absolutely not. This is how she gets people like, wait,

395
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Speaker 3: what just from you talking to her this whole time?

396
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Speaker 5: Like you feel like like you know where.

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Speaker 1: It was me?

398
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 2: Was that you?

399
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Speaker 1: It was me? Yes, it was me. Peggy was pressuring me.

400
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,480
Speaker 1: She had you know, she had begged me. She was

401
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 1: just like, you know, please, like you see how Ricky

402
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,879
Speaker 1: responded to me when we did the interview, could you

403
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,400
Speaker 1: please just ask him to like write a letter about

404
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,240
Speaker 1: the type of person that I am. And I said,

405
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Speaker 1: I think that he doesn't want to like be bothered Peggy,

406
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,040
Speaker 1: And she said just please, just please, like just ask

407
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:29,520
Speaker 1: And I was like, I'm going to ask, but they're

408
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,919
Speaker 1: probably not going to respond. So that was me. You know,

409
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,080
Speaker 1: she had me connect her with like a couple of people,

410
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Speaker 1: which I did. I had her connect I don't want

411
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,760
Speaker 1: to mention their names. But I had connect connected her

412
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,960
Speaker 1: to two people that potentially could have looked at her

413
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Speaker 1: case and helped her, because for a while I did

414
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,040
Speaker 1: believe the mental health thing, right, I don't know much

415
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:55,359
Speaker 1: about mental health, mental illness. And both of those people

416
00:19:55,560 --> 00:20:01,479
Speaker 1: came back to me and they were like Andrina, no, no,

417
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:06,680
Speaker 1: girl no. And so then Peggy was pressuring me about

418
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 1: why these people were not. These two people were not like,

419
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,399
Speaker 1: you know, communicating with her anymore, you know, what were

420
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:14,919
Speaker 1: they doing? And I was just like, I don't know.

421
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,360
Speaker 1: I just made the connection for you. So if nothing happens.

422
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,480
Speaker 1: I'm a television producer. I don't get people out of prison,

423
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,320
Speaker 1: so I don't I don't know. I just connected you

424
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 1: with them. But both of those people were like, absolutely not, Yeah,

425
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:27,159
Speaker 1: absolutely not.

426
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Speaker 2: It's interesting this mental health defense. A lot of con

427
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,479
Speaker 2: artists use that when they get caught. My con artist

428
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 2: Mayor Smith, the Irish eras season one, when I started

429
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,280
Speaker 2: circling the wagons and finding all these other victims and

430
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,400
Speaker 2: building the criminal case against her, she checks herself into

431
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,719
Speaker 2: a mental hospital claiming, you know, she tried to kill herself,

432
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,879
Speaker 2: and then she gets released into the custody of the

433
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,199
Speaker 2: mental health hospital, and then she's in a room and

434
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,359
Speaker 2: board with other mentally ill people who she is scamming,

435
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 2: but it's like this system allows it, but that's a

436
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,400
Speaker 2: go to. Yeah, oh I was mentally ill. I didn't

437
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:02,119
Speaker 2: know what I was doing.

438
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now the bottom line is as you people are greedy,

439
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,200
Speaker 1: Peggy is greedy, Elkin is greedy. All they could talk

440
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 1: about was just like the cars that they drove, the

441
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 1: houses that they had, the clothes that they wore, the

442
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,560
Speaker 1: bags that she had, the trips that they took. They

443
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,959
Speaker 1: were just obsessed with like being rich and just really

444
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,159
Speaker 1: missing that life. And even Elkin was like, you know,

445
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 1: it's hard to come from that high up and then

446
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 1: be this far down because he was so low, you

447
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,680
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like he couldn't make a living

448
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,880
Speaker 1: for himself and didn't want to make a living for himself.

449
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,639
Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess I'm just like Okay. And one

450
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 1: of my other Trap queens from like another episode, I

451
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,159
Speaker 1: remember the FBI agent that we had interviewed for that

452
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: was on her case said that she was making a

453
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 1: million dollars a month, and so when I went to

454
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 1: go film with her, I was like, girl, I would

455
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:54,440
Speaker 1: have just done it for three months and made the

456
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 1: three million dollars and just quit. And then she said

457
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,680
Speaker 1: to me, she said no, she said, you become addicted

458
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 1: to that money when you see how easy it is

459
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 1: to get. So she's just like, it's may not be

460
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: like a drug addiction, but it is an addiction. And

461
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 1: she said, that's why you just keep going and going

462
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 1: and going and going. And so that's what I you know,

463
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,919
Speaker 1: I think happened with like Peggy and you know Elkin,

464
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 1: because I really do think that the two of them

465
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 1: were in cahoots and whenever they can con people. Now,

466
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,199
Speaker 1: I think that they are still at it.

467
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 2: So I will I will one up that it is

468
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 2: an addiction to the money, but more than the money,

469
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 2: it is this euphoria, this godlike feeling they get every

470
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,400
Speaker 2: con artist gets from creating things that do not exist,

471
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 2: knowing they're fake and knowing you're getting everyone to believe it,

472
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,880
Speaker 2: and you just feel all powerful, like I created this

473
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 2: world and everyone's acting according to my plan. Like they

474
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 2: love it. Yeah, like it gives them a high in

475
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 2: addition to the money. But sometimes there is no money.

476
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 2: A lot of cons that's true. Look at the years

477
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 2: Peggy put in with Ricky Williams, there was no money,

478
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 2: there was no but there was story after story after story,

479
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 2: and it was all fake and he bought all of them,

480
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 2: and so did Sean tell They bought all her stories.

481
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 2: And that's that was the thrill for those years before

482
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 2: the money. That's why she did it, because she could

483
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 2: appear to be this amazing connected selling hospitals and real

484
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 2: estate in the Bahamas like it's it's.

485
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: It's exotic exactly, and then she was into her beauty,

486
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 1: and you know that was It was always like a

487
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: weird thing with Elkin when he spoke about how beautiful

488
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,959
Speaker 1: his mom was. It was just almost, i don't know,

489
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 1: like a little incestuous.

490
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 2: My conversation with Andrena Hale takes an interesting turn after

491
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 2: the break. Welcome back to Queen of the Khan and

492
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 2: my conversation with documentary producer and showrunner Andrina Hale. She

493
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 2: was talking about Elkin's admiration of his mother Peggy's beauty.

494
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: It was always like a weird thing with Elkin when

495
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 1: he spoke about how beautiful his mom was. It was

496
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: just almost, I don't know, like a little incestuous. The

497
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,160
Speaker 1: way he would talk about her beauty, which I always

498
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: thought was like a little disconcerting, And it's.

499
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 2: Entirely you know. I mean, if she's not in his

500
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 2: life when he's young, I don't think that mother son.

501
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: Bond was having formed sadly, Yeah, it's heartbreaking. Yeah, I

502
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: feel for him. I do too. I do too, because

503
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 1: he is not a bad person. But like I said,

504
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 1: he's been just through hell. He's been through hell.

505
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 2: After that episode aired and it's available on BT Plus,

506
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 2: I'm plugging the hell out of it because I think

507
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 2: everyone should watch it. It's such a great it's so compelling.

508
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 2: After it aired, after it streamed, after it dropped. What

509
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 2: was the fallout, What was the.

510
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: Reaction from the family or anyone from anyone? Everybody loved it.

511
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: Everybody loved it.

512
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 2: Did Peggy love it? What did she.

513
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 1: Say to me? She said, I was worried for her

514
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: because she doesn't come off like she cared, like she

515
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: was apologetic. And there were several opportunities that I gave

516
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: her to be apologetic, because that is redemption is the

517
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: main focus of that show. Like you did all of

518
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 1: these things, but redemption, you know what I mean, Like

519
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: you're sorry and you're doing all these good things. And

520
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: I couldn't get that from her, and she was just like,

521
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: I said, well, it's going to be what it is.

522
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: It's going to be what it is, and she was

523
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: just like, it's fine. But I think that when it

524
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 1: aired and she was able to watch it in prison

525
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 1: like because I guess like they had to wait until

526
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: it was linear. They had to wait like after we

527
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: had dropped the episodes, it was like some time before

528
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 1: she actually got a chance to see it. And she

529
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: liked it.

530
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 2: She liked it.

531
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: She liked it. I don't think she realized that, uh,

532
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: it just it didn't make her. Nobody was sympathetic to her.

533
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 1: People who watched it, who were not a part of it,

534
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 1: they definitely did not like her.

535
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: I mean, how could you, She's a cond woman.

536
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, and cheers my work husband, David Rock. You know,

537
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 1: I shot all of the episodes with the showrunner, Jackson Wynn,

538
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: who is like another one of my like her war husbands.

539
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: The three of us are like a powerhouse on that series.

540
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 1: And then David takes it into post and puts it

541
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: together and then shout out to Neia Wesley, who was

542
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: my associate producer on that show. But she did like

543
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 1: a really great job. She hustled and she kept at

544
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: Dennis rod Dennis Rodman's people to get Dennis on.

545
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: So yeah, which was great. So many great guests in

546
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 2: that episode, I know, so many great guts because this

547
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 2: is a hard thing that nobody wants to talk about.

548
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 2: When you're victimized by cont nobody wants to talk about it.

549
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 2: And I imagine at one point Elkin talks about all

550
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 2: these other sports people they were managing.

551
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 6: We were probably about ten deep in clients I had Dennis,

552
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 6: I had been doing stuff for Lawrence Taylor, Jim Brown,

553
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 6: Larry Bird, Joe Montana, Brandon Marshall. We had the whole

554
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 6: backfield of the Dolphins, the who's who of Miami.

555
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 2: But I haven't heard tell that they've been scammed. But

556
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 2: a lot of times people don't talk about getting scammed,

557
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 2: like they don't want to talk, they don't want anyone, yeah,

558
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: because it makes them look bad exactly.

559
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 1: And some of the some of the people that he

560
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: talked about, I don't know if they actually really had them,

561
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like he talks about, like, oh,

562
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: we had all of the Miami Dolphins, and so I'm

563
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: not really sure if they if they did, because yeah,

564
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: I didn't hear about anybody else.

565
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 2: I know, because I will tell you as the victim

566
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 2: of a con artist. And I speak to victims every day,

567
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: even people who call me for help, you know, because

568
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 2: they're inspired by my story. I put my con artists

569
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 2: in jail, even when police turned me away. I worked that.

570
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 2: I'm a producer, you know. You know, yeah, I worked

571
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 2: it and made it happen. And even victims who call

572
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: me for help and advice, they don't want to go.

573
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: They're like, well, do I have to go to police.

574
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, that's stage one. You have to go.

575
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 2: I don't want to have to give my real name, Like, yeah,

576
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 2: you have to admit this happened. How are you going

577
00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 2: to get this person? But nobody wants to talk about it.

578
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: And these are nobodies, yeah imagine like they're not like

579
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: sports stars. Yeah, but if you're the CEO of a

580
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 2: company or you're in charge of people, and I think

581
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 2: it hurts your career if you admit I got taken

582
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: by this woman I believed, you know, Sea dance.

583
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 1: I think that's what it is too.

584
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 2: Do you know what Peggy's plans are now that she's.

585
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: Out, No, I can only imagine what are her plans.

586
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 2: I've heard whispers that she's planning a big comeback. She

587
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 2: wants a book, she wants a movie, she wants an

588
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: Anadelvi type comeback. She wants HBO and other streamers to

589
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,479
Speaker 2: back the truck up and pay her for her life story.

590
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: Well, that's what she was trying to do with me, really, yes,

591
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: tell me well, and that's why, like Elkin was giving

592
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: me all the family secrets and telling me like a

593
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: bunch of things. And I was going to because it's

594
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: really it's really compelling, it's super juicy, and the way

595
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: that I was going to come at it, I felt

596
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: was like pretty brilliant. And then it was just like

597
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: having to deal with the two of them because it

598
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: was just like you know, like.

599
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: Were you thinking of going to the business with them?

600
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was totally thinking about doing it, because you know,

601
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: a lot of the a lot of the queens like

602
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: come to me like afterwards and want to do things,

603
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: but we have paperwork, like you've just just you have

604
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: to sign paperwork. But it always had to deal with

605
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: like Elkin, and then they were hustled. They were trying

606
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: to hustle me like, and she was just like, no,

607
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: I can just like keep him out of it. I

608
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: don't want him anywhere near my business and I'll just

609
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: sign with you. But I'm like, but you're in prison,

610
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: so you have to like give your life rights to somebody.

611
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: And then she would say she gave him to Elkin.

612
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: It was just like too much, and I was just like,

613
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: I don't even want to be bothered. So I was

614
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: just like, I don't even care, like I do not

615
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: want to be bothered. But yeah, no, she totally has

616
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: like there's so much there, especially based on like what

617
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: Elkin has told me, that like is starts so much

618
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: sooner than then. The story starts with like trap queens

619
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: with you know the athletes starts way before that, and

620
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: it's her scams. So yeah, if they get somebody, they

621
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: and they're on the up and up, and they give

622
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: somebody the power to do it, and they tell them

623
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: what they told me, and Elkan tells what they told me,

624
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: they'll have a story. They will absolutely have a story.

625
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: But that was her thing, is she wanted to be

626
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: in Hollywood, and I think that that's why Elkin came

627
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: to Los Angeles. I don't know if he's still here,

628
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: but that was his thing, was to like, you know,

629
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: push that whole Peggy narrative because he always said, well,

630
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: my mother gets out of prison, we're going to be

631
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: rich again.

632
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 2: Oh is that what he said?

633
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 5: He said, just wait.

634
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: Until my mother gets out of prison, We're going to

635
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: be rich again. And I said, well, your mom may

636
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: not get out of prison for a while, so don't

637
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: you want to create some sort of business and wealth

638
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: and do things on your own? But I don't think

639
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: Elkin can do anything about his mother.

640
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 2: Wow, I'm blown away. And the tragedy of our current

641
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 2: I found out the hard way is even though her

642
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: victims have court ordered restitution for millions of dollars for her,

643
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 2: she can just start an escorp or LLC or Peggy

644
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 2: Incorporated and have the money go there and it's untouchable, yes,

645
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: because it's not in her name.

646
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: No, And let me tell you, she will be smart

647
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: enough to figure that out. Oh, I know.

648
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 2: I just marvel and get angry at the system that allows.

649
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: The skull to happen.

650
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, restitution means nothing.

651
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: You can't touch that money. I mean, the only thing

652
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: that you can just like hope for is like they've

653
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: put out such bad karma the two of them, that

654
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: that karma is going to continue to keep them in

655
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: a humbled state as opposed to allowing them to get

656
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: rich and famous, Like I would hope that that does

657
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: not happen, even though I was like game for it,

658
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: because I was just like, this story is crazy.

659
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: But you couldn't nail them down on an agreement because

660
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: they're trying to.

661
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: Scar you over it now. And then they were just

662
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: so like volatile, like the two of them, like, you know,

663
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: you get really involved because you're trying to tell this story,

664
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: so you get really involved with these people, and then

665
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: you just hear like it was just it was just

666
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: so much drama. I was just like, no, I just

667
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: have to like I cannot be bothered with these people.

668
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think did the right thing.

669
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: And I was like, let me just block this number.

670
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: I mean that's a smart thing.

671
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, Peggy, I did not want to talk to you.

672
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 2: Do you think Peggy will ever stop scamming?

673
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: No, they don't know how to do anything different. They

674
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: don't know how to do anything different. I don't think

675
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: it's mental illness. I think that that's just who she

676
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: is and Elkin's always going to do what his mom

677
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: does because he loves his mom and he wants that

678
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: love from his mom. So whatever his mom does, he's

679
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: going to do.

680
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, gosh, it's so out of the both of them.

681
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: I think he's the most sympathetic character, Yeah, because anyone

682
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 2: can imagine having a mother like that, like what else

683
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: could become of you?

684
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: Exactly. And I think the reason that he's so attached

685
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: to like things is because when his his mom would

686
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: come into town, he said that she would take him shopping,

687
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: and so he equates like things to love, and so

688
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: I think that that's really sad. You know, somebody who's

689
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: like well into his forties is still is still equating

690
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: love to like things because that is what his mom did.

691
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: You know. She would just buy him stuff and then

692
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: she'd fly out of town again and pretend like she

693
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: didn't have any children.

694
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 2: I mean, that's just that's got to hurt on so

695
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: many levels to have your mother like not even say

696
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: you exist.

697
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he would, and then you play along with

698
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: it exactly. And he would definitely like spend times when

699
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: he was like really upset with her and like not

700
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: talking to her. I think he told me before before

701
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: they did Trap Queens, it had been months since he

702
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: had spoken with her. He'd stopped like responding to her emails,

703
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: definitely didn't take any of her jail calls. I think

704
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: that Trap Queens brought them back together, according to him,

705
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: ooh yeah, wow.

706
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: I mean I hope, you know, I hope and prayer

707
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: for them both is to see the light and change

708
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 2: their ways and have a loving, healthy relationship.

709
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

710
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 2: I'm forty nine years old. I don't think I'll happen.

711
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: You think that.

712
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: I believe in miracles, but I mean it would take

713
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: a miracle.

714
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: I mean, he's been shot in everything.

715
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 2: Like someone shot him because of what Peggy did or

716
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 2: in some other situation.

717
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,240
Speaker 1: It sounds like it's really murky. But like shortly after

718
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: I think shortly after she went to prison, he got

719
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: shot in the face.

720
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 2: Oh, like some like a retribution. It sounds like I

721
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: don't really know. Listen. I said that though, like when

722
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 2: you're I'm a vegetarian, right, I don't kill anything. I

723
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: catch the spider and put it outside. I'm a live

724
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 2: and let live. But in the months after I realized

725
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: I was scammed, I was having these detailed murder fantasies.

726
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 2: One of them like daydreaming. I liked it. I would

727
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 2: throw her off this top of this building. Yeah she

728
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 2: was my neighbor, and watch her body hit the ground.

729
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 2: That made me happy. I would strangle her and watched

730
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 2: the life drift out of her eyes, and that made

731
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 2: me happy. I was in a dark effing place for months. Yeah,

732
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 2: and I couldn't tell anybody because I know what it

733
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 2: sounds like. I sound like a killer, but I like it,

734
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 2: like it's it's giving me relief, you know, like I

735
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 2: can do something. So you tell me someone shot Elkin

736
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 2: in the face. I can believe that if I had

737
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 2: a gun and Mike con Artist was there and it

738
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 2: was within that window, if I would have shot her

739
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 2: in the face too. Like it's such a violation on

740
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 2: so many levels. It's not even just the money. So

741
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: I get it, I mean, but thankfully, you know, I

742
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 2: looked into getting help, and then I found out that

743
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 2: that's a normal thing that victims fantasized about hurting their perpetrator.

744
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 2: And yeah, it eventually went away on its own. And

745
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 2: I'm still the loving, kind vegetarian. I still put spiders out.

746
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 2: I don't kill anything, but I get it exactly.

747
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: But I think because of his mother's Shenanigan's, like whatever

748
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: was happening in New Orleans before she got picked up.

749
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: I think that that he got caught up in that

750
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,240
Speaker 1: and she that's how he ended up getting shot because

751
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: and he paps a lot of shit too. He just

752
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: outIn has a big mouth, and he's just an angry person.

753
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: He's somebody who should be medicated and not you know,

754
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: doing street drugs. He should be on some sort of medication.

755
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: You know, he played football, he had I forget what

756
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: position he played, but he said that, you know, he

757
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: had a lot of like head trauma and then on

758
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: top of everything else, you know, I just think that

759
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 1: he has some issues. But wow, so it's either it's

760
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: probably a combination between whatever she was doing in the

761
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,280
Speaker 1: streets to try to keep money coming in, because.

762
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 2: She had money coming in. Yeah, this is only what

763
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 2: we know.

764
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is only what we know.

765
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 2: All of these scenarios. You have to say, all right,

766
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 2: if we know this one thing, they're probably thirty other

767
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,240
Speaker 2: things we don't know exactly. Well, we know she scammed

768
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 2: that doctor out of one hundred and seventy four thousand. Yeah,

769
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 2: we found another check from him for close to two

770
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 2: hundred thousand when they arrested her. And this is while

771
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 2: and then a while she's negotiating her plea deal, she's

772
00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 2: scamming another guy.

773
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like yeah. And then I heard and Alken

774
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: said that she was like scamming some like drug dealers

775
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: in the streets or whatever. And I think that that

776
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: is what he got caught up in.

777
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, God, I wonder if she feels guilty for that.

778
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: No, I don't think she's capable of feeling guilty. I

779
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: don't think.

780
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 2: No.

781
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: I don't think that's a gene that she received when

782
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: they would give it out when they were giving out

783
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: the genes that they gave other people. I think guilt

784
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: is not one of her genes.

785
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, gosh, she.

786
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: Missed that one. Because all of these women are brilliant,

787
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: and all of them are intelligent, really smart, and could

788
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: have taken their superpowers and used them for good, but

789
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: then they went down these other.

790
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 2: Well because intrinsically, like you talked about Jenes earlier, there

791
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 2: is a con artist gene. Yeah, and they get a

792
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 2: thrill from it, and you wouldn't get a thrill from

793
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 2: life because regular people say, how could I sleep at

794
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 2: night if I know I have twenty different stories I'm

795
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: telling twenty different people, Like it would keep me up.

796
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 2: I'm like, no, no, no, it doesn't. It excites that

797
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: it doesn't keep them up at all. They love it.

798
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 2: I know, you know, it's a roller coaster ride, but

799
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 2: they're enjoying the hell out of it. There were times

800
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 2: where my con artist would invite multiple victims to like

801
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: a cocktail party, and she's told these people different stories,

802
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 2: and at any minute, one of us could have outed her,

803
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 2: but we never did because we're polite people. But I

804
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 2: would have been Besides, like, if that was me, I'm like, yeah,

805
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 2: he's gonna saste like I could. But no, she loves it.

806
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:22,919
Speaker 1: They love the thrill, the thrill of the con.

807
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: It's a thrill of the con. It's a gene. It's

808
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 2: a con gene. They get it, and people don't know

809
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 2: till it's way too late.

810
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's sad because so many lives have just

811
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: been like, oh yeah, ruined by it. I mean even

812
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: though Ricky, I'm pretty sure it is still like thriving.

813
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 2: Don't you think it cost him his marriage?

814
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely.

815
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: Financial troubles caused most divorces. Yeah, so I'm sure that this,

816
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 2: you know, couldn't have helped the relationship.

817
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: No, and especially like when they had like proof and

818
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: for him to still just be like no, Like yeah,

819
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: it's like, come on, like your rain drover, you go

820
00:38:58,000 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: out to take your kids to school in the range

821
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: over's gone. God, I can't even imagine.

822
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 2: But I applaud her for being a dog with a

823
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 2: bone because I think she's the catalyst that took her down.

824
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: Absolutely, because Ricky wouldn't have pursued it. I don't think Dennis. Yeah, Dennis.

825
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: I don't know what Dennis was doing. He was definitely

826
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: a character to interview. Oh, I'm sure he was definitely

827
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: a character. I said to him, I said, Elkins says hi,

828
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: and he goes who. I'm like, buddy, there are pictures

829
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: of you guys like hanging out that was like your sidekick,

830
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: Like what are you talking about?

831
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 2: That must have fed him up so bad. Oh my god,

832
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 2: this guy's your friend, your best friend, You're touring the

833
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 2: world together, and to find out that, oh no, no,

834
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 2: he's not this woman's brother, he's the son. Yeah, and

835
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 2: by the way, she's stealing from you. I think she

836
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 2: got away I think she got way more money out

837
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 2: of Dennis than we know.

838
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 1: Oh, I think so too. I think so too, because

839
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: Dennis was just like whatever. But she said, oh, when

840
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 1: he tells me I could have everything, I took him seriously.

841
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 2: I don't believe he ever said that. I think this

842
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 2: is according to her, you know, according to her retelling

843
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 2: of the story, there's a scene where Dennis said take everything.

844
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: So you know, like, no, I don't think he meant that.

845
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially when you're telling him I'm not going to

846
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 2: charge you.

847
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 1: Exactly, Like what kind of money manager is that?

848
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 2: It's multi level. Well, it's been a pleasure and a

849
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 2: joy talking to you. Hats off. I respect you so

850
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 2: immensely for doing that trap Queen's on Peggy. It was

851
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 2: phenomenal of people listening. You can get it on be

852
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 2: et Plus. It's such a brilliant documentary series in general,

853
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 2: but in that particular episode, Peggy Fulford, that phone call

854
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: with Ricky Williams just everything. Her access. She gives you,

855
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,959
Speaker 2: her explanation of her life and her willingness to talk

856
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 2: about you know, to.

857
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 1: Spin, yes and spin she did.

858
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, But great job.

859
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thank you, Oh absolutely thank you

860
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 1: for inviting me.

861
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 2: Next time, on Queen of the Con, we revisit that

862
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 2: plane crash that killed Peggy's first husband and the aftermath.

863
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 4: Elkin alleged that Forrest converted Elkin settlement funds, and it's.

864
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: Got some crazy twists and turns that not surprisingly involve

865
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 2: who else Peggy Fulford.

866
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 4: Apparently the last of the settlement funds, approximately fifty thousand dollars,

867
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 4: was used by Peggy in around two thousand and five

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Speaker 4: as a down payment for a condominium she purchased in Louisiana.

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Speaker 2: If you're enjoying Queen of the Con, leave us a

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Speaker 2: five star review, reviews, help other listeners find us, and,

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Speaker 2: by all means, click that share button and send Queen

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00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: of the Con to anyone you think might be into it.

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Speaker 2: Queen of the Con The Athlete Whisper is a production

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Speaker 2: of AYR Media and iHeartMedia, hosted by me Jonathan Walton

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00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 2: Executive producers Jonathan Walton for Jonathan Walton Productions and Elisa

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00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 2: Rosen for AYR Media. Consulting producer Evan Goldstein consulting producer

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Speaker 2: Trace Shean. Written by Jonathan Walton, sound designed by Justin Longerbean,

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Speaker 2: edited and mixed by Justin Longerbean audio engineer Justin Longerbean

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00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 2: audio engineer Chris Desmond, studio engineer Graham Gibson. Mastered by

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Speaker 2: Justin Longerbean Legal counsel for AYR Media, Johnny Douglas, Executive

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Speaker 2: producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard