WEBVTT - Short Stuff: Oedipus Complex

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, and welcome to the short stuff, Chosh, Chuck, Jerry,

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<v Speaker 1>not Dave but Dave. And this is short.

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<v Speaker 2>Stuff, yeah, the one in which we continue to lay

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<v Speaker 2>wood onto Sigmund Freud as a lot of people do.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean his spirit at least.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I mean, here's the deal with Sigmund Freud.

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<v Speaker 2>He and I think this this thing that you put

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<v Speaker 2>together from Britannica and very well mind and psych central

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<v Speaker 2>and simple simply psychology and other places, I think it

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<v Speaker 2>kind of nails it. Where like maybe we should just

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<v Speaker 2>think of Freud as kind of an innovative, perhaps even

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<v Speaker 2>great mind and thinker, and not like a rigorous scientist,

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<v Speaker 2>because a lot of the stuff in his psychoanalysis and

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<v Speaker 2>in his theories was not It was just stuff based

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<v Speaker 2>on anecdotal things he saw in the cases he worked on.

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes just like a single case would make him say like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>well here's what this is. I think.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I mean he would just theorize based on conjecture.

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<v Speaker 1>He never applied the scientific method to any of his theories.

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<v Speaker 1>He just thought and talked out loud and smoked cigars,

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<v Speaker 1>and he came up with interesting explanations right for things

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<v Speaker 1>he observed for like actual real things, and one of

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<v Speaker 1>the actual real things that he observed is that a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of times little kids are mean and hostile to

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<v Speaker 1>one parent and can't be separated from the other parent.

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<v Speaker 1>And he came to kind of recognize that usually they

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<v Speaker 1>were attached to the opposite sex parent and were mean

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<v Speaker 1>to the same sex parent, and that formed the basis

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<v Speaker 1>of what came to be known as the Otopus complex,

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<v Speaker 1>which is far and away his most famous theory among

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of very famous theories that he came up with.

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<v Speaker 1>But just like all the other ones, it's essentially conjecture.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, when you think, if you know nothing

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<v Speaker 2>about Freud, you probably have made a about like somebody

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<v Speaker 2>wanting to sleep with their mother.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean there's a.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what is it?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to tell you.

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<v Speaker 2>So we should just quickly go over the Greek myth

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<v Speaker 2>of Oedipus, in which it was so named for Oedipus

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<v Speaker 2>was abandoned at birth and then fulfilled a prophecy, killing

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<v Speaker 2>his father, the king and marrying his mother, the queen,

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<v Speaker 2>whom he did not know because he was abandoned at birth.

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<v Speaker 2>That was his father and his mother. He ended up

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<v Speaker 2>having four kids with his mother, and after learning this,

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<v Speaker 2>Queen Jocasta hanged herself and Oedipus gouged out his eyes.

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<v Speaker 2>Perhaps appropriate action, yeah in his case at.

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<v Speaker 1>Least, yeah, so grossed out, he gouged out his own eyes.

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<v Speaker 1>And to be clear to the Greeks, the point of

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<v Speaker 1>this myth was not like, how gross is this? It

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<v Speaker 1>was like it was about how like the inevitability of

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<v Speaker 1>faith and the inability of humans to like change their

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<v Speaker 1>fate or their destiny, because he was this was a

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<v Speaker 1>prophecy that he ended up fulfilling despite trying really hard

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<v Speaker 1>not to write. Freud was like, I like that really

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<v Speaker 1>gross part. I'm going to use that to describe these

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<v Speaker 1>feelings that little kids have towards their parents.

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<v Speaker 2>I like the idea, though, that someone's writing this myth

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<v Speaker 2>and they're like, oh boys, I got one for you.

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<v Speaker 2>This one's so gnarly. What's it about?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh you just wait, Yeah, I'm not going to it's about.

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<v Speaker 2>It's about destiny whatever? Sure?

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<v Speaker 1>Sure? So yeah, I mean that's where that's where Freud

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<v Speaker 1>picked it up. Was I mean, it is perfectly suited

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<v Speaker 1>in that in that sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And we'll describe from kind of directly from the

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<v Speaker 2>Simply Psychology website what the edible complex is and it

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<v Speaker 2>occurs during the phallic stage of development ages three to six,

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<v Speaker 2>in which the source of libido or the life force

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<v Speaker 2>is concentrated in the erogenous zones of the child's body.

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<v Speaker 2>And during the stage, children experience an unconscious feeling of

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<v Speaker 2>desire for their opposite sex parent and jealousy and envy

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<v Speaker 2>toward their same sex parent.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, it makes sense, it's a little it's a little jargony.

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<v Speaker 1>I also found one from Encyclopedia Britannica. It's a little

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<v Speaker 1>more lay person geared. They say the Oedipus complex in

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<v Speaker 1>psychoanalytic theory is a desire for sexual involvement with the

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<v Speaker 1>parent of the opposite sex in a cocomminant sense of

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<v Speaker 1>rivalry with the parent of the same sex. But it's

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<v Speaker 1>a crucial stage in the normal development process according to

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<v Speaker 1>psychoanalytic theory at least.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that part is pretty key. And what's also key

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<v Speaker 2>is that Freud based this on a case one case

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<v Speaker 2>study of a four year old patient that he anonymized

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<v Speaker 2>as Little Hans. Apparently, Little Hans was brought in by

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<v Speaker 2>his father and had recently seen the collapse of a

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<v Speaker 2>horse pulling a heavy cart that really traumatized.

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<v Speaker 1>Him, to traumatized anybody, Sure, and.

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<v Speaker 2>He developed a fear of horses.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure.

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<v Speaker 2>So Hans's father said, you know what, He's developed all

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<v Speaker 2>these really specific anxieties. He feels really uneasy without mom around,

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<v Speaker 2>and he's really fixated on male genitalia, especially horse genitalia.

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<v Speaker 1>And Freud was like, yes, yes, I see very interesting. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry everybody. So he basically said, this all just

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<v Speaker 1>makes total sense. Check this out, Hans' father. All of

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<v Speaker 1>this comes from a foundational animosity that he has towards you,

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<v Speaker 1>his dad, And the reason that he's afraid of horses

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<v Speaker 1>because the horses represent you, his dad, and he's afraid

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<v Speaker 1>that you, his dad, are going to castrate him because

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<v Speaker 1>he secretly wants to sleep with his mother even though

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<v Speaker 1>he's four years old. And Freud's sycophantic secretary jumped to

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<v Speaker 1>his feet and started applauding, uncomfortably loudly.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which this. You know, if he went into a

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a shrink today and you heard something like this,

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<v Speaker 2>you'd say, thank you for your time, I'll be going

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<v Speaker 2>to see someone else.

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<v Speaker 1>You can actually probably file suit for something like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you probably could. But at the time this turned

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<v Speaker 2>out to be like the foundational legacy of Freud's psychoanalysis,

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<v Speaker 2>which is just you know, bananas to think about.

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<v Speaker 1>Should we talk about girls first and take a break

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<v Speaker 1>or break and then girls? Let's talk about girls, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>because there are such things as girls, And Freud was like, well,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess I should probably talk about the girls too.

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<v Speaker 1>He didn't come up with the name electra complex. That

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<v Speaker 1>was Carl Jung, but he did take the oedipal complex

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<v Speaker 1>and apply it to girls and basically said, same thing,

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<v Speaker 1>but do the old switcheroo with the parents. The girls

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<v Speaker 1>want to sleep with their father and they hate their mother.

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<v Speaker 1>But the whole thing is not to do with castration anxiety.

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<v Speaker 1>It's penis envying girls.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. And another what I mentioned is the first key.

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<v Speaker 2>And by the way, I realized how creepy that sounded

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<v Speaker 2>when I say let's talk about girls, okay, by the

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<v Speaker 2>way I make it that way, okay. Good. His proposal was,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is very key, was that a kid that

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<v Speaker 2>does not undergo this experience of the edipal complex will

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<v Speaker 2>not fully mature sexually, and they will be stuck for life.

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<v Speaker 2>They're going to be stuck identifying with the opposite sex parent,

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<v Speaker 2>and they will never be able to have a normal,

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<v Speaker 2>socially acceptable love life and desires for people who aren't

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<v Speaker 2>in their family.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. He basically said that an incomplete development through the

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<v Speaker 1>edipal complex is the basis of homosexuality. That's how he

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<v Speaker 1>would have put it at the time. And then the

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<v Speaker 1>other problem of it is you're stuck in that portion

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<v Speaker 1>of your development, doomed to forever, like, go through it,

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<v Speaker 1>even though you're never going to get past it. And

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<v Speaker 1>he said that guys like that turn out to be

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<v Speaker 1>real Norman Baits types, and all of his colleagues were like,

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<v Speaker 1>who is Norman Bates? And Freud was like, just wait,

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<v Speaker 1>just wait, because he's gonna knock your socks off when

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<v Speaker 1>he comes along in the early sixties.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess we take our break now, all right, we'll

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<v Speaker 2>be back right after this. Thanks, weet, shop shop stop.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, chuck, So we're back. So the big question is

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<v Speaker 1>is all of this weird gross stuff correct?

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<v Speaker 2>Answer me, Well, most psychologists today and the world of

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<v Speaker 2>psychology as a whole, are pretty like bashful about even

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<v Speaker 2>talking about this. They're like, can we just kind of

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<v Speaker 2>forget all that stuff? We've moved on. It's completely discredited.

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<v Speaker 2>Most of Freud's theories are pretty discredited at this point,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's not to say that there isn't some support

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<v Speaker 2>for this still.

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<v Speaker 1>No, there have been papers that have come out that

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<v Speaker 1>seem to very strongly support the presence of Freud's Oedipus complex,

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<v Speaker 1>and one came out in two thousand and nine. It

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<v Speaker 1>was published in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B

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<v Speaker 1>and it made international news when it was published because

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<v Speaker 1>they studied these similarities, the physical characteristic similarities between men's

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<v Speaker 1>mothers and their wives, and they measured everything as like

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<v Speaker 1>jaw link. They did everything, and they were coming up

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<v Speaker 1>with correlations in like the ninety second percentile, so essentially

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<v Speaker 1>like photo copies between mom and wife. And they were like, see,

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<v Speaker 1>guys really want their moms. What you're gonna do? Dog's

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<v Speaker 1>gonna hunt kind of thing. And like I said, it

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<v Speaker 1>made international news, and luckily some other scientists were like,

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<v Speaker 1>let me see your data and went through and they're like,

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<v Speaker 1>this does not support your conclusions at all.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, here's the thing I'm gonna go out on a limb.

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<v Speaker 2>Hold on to your hats. I'm gonna go on a

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<v Speaker 2>limb and say, I've seen plenty of examples where kids

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<v Speaker 2>end up married to someone that is maybe in some way,

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<v Speaker 2>like like a really good parent that they had of

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<v Speaker 2>the opposite sex or maybe of the same sex. Even

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<v Speaker 2>I don't necessarily think like it's the looks thing, but

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<v Speaker 2>like if you're like a really awesome dad, and you're

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<v Speaker 2>like super fun and funny, and you know, maybe you

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<v Speaker 2>have a certain job, like, and your daughter goes on

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<v Speaker 2>to marry somebody who has got like a great sense

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<v Speaker 2>of humor and has maybe have a similar interest as

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<v Speaker 2>something your father did. Like, I think that can be

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<v Speaker 2>a thing. I don't think it's always a thing, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's just sort of when you're raised with a parent

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<v Speaker 2>that you look up to and love and admire, you

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<v Speaker 2>may seek out people like that in your life. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's kind of all that is.

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<v Speaker 1>I think similarly, and maybe even more frequently or commonly,

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<v Speaker 1>people inadvertently or unconsciously seek out people who are like

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<v Speaker 1>their parents in the worst ways.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, or sometimes completely seek out the opposite.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, but that's conscious.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah maybe so, But yeah, I see what you mean

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<v Speaker 2>for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so again there have been There was another paper

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<v Speaker 1>in the eighties that studied rats that basically said, like, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>these rats at least have Oedipus complexes that carry on.

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<v Speaker 1>So luckily psychology came up with some other stuff that said, like, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>kids do stuff like this when they're young. We don't

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<v Speaker 1>think it's the Oedipus complex. And luckily, things like attachment theory,

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<v Speaker 1>which we did an entire episode on that was pretty good. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>have less way less creepy. They've come along and offered

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<v Speaker 1>pretty good structures for understanding child development that is just

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<v Speaker 1>much less ichy than Freud's.

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<v Speaker 2>So you're just gonna summarize that rat study. You're not

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<v Speaker 2>gonna talk about rat ejaculation.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you want me to? No?

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<v Speaker 2>I think we should just leave that right now.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, cool, So I think more than ever short Stuff

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<v Speaker 1>is out.

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