1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the short stuff, Chosh, Chuck, Jerry, 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,120 Speaker 1: not Dave but Dave. And this is short. 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 2: Stuff, yeah, the one in which we continue to lay 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 2: wood onto Sigmund Freud as a lot of people do. 5 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean his spirit at least. 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, here's the deal with Sigmund Freud. 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 2: He and I think this this thing that you put 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 2: together from Britannica and very well mind and psych central 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 2: and simple simply psychology and other places, I think it 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 2: kind of nails it. Where like maybe we should just 11 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 2: think of Freud as kind of an innovative, perhaps even 12 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 2: great mind and thinker, and not like a rigorous scientist, 13 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: because a lot of the stuff in his psychoanalysis and 14 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 2: in his theories was not It was just stuff based 15 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 2: on anecdotal things he saw in the cases he worked on. 16 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: Sometimes just like a single case would make him say like, oh, 17 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 2: well here's what this is. I think. 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean he would just theorize based on conjecture. 19 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: He never applied the scientific method to any of his theories. 20 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: He just thought and talked out loud and smoked cigars, 21 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: and he came up with interesting explanations right for things 22 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: he observed for like actual real things, and one of 23 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: the actual real things that he observed is that a 24 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: lot of times little kids are mean and hostile to 25 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: one parent and can't be separated from the other parent. 26 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: And he came to kind of recognize that usually they 27 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: were attached to the opposite sex parent and were mean 28 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 1: to the same sex parent, and that formed the basis 29 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: of what came to be known as the Otopus complex, 30 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: which is far and away his most famous theory among 31 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: a lot of very famous theories that he came up with. 32 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: But just like all the other ones, it's essentially conjecture. 33 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, when you think, if you know nothing 34 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 2: about Freud, you probably have made a about like somebody 35 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 2: wanting to sleep with their mother. 36 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's a. 37 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, what is it? 38 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: I'm not going to tell you. 39 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 2: So we should just quickly go over the Greek myth 40 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 2: of Oedipus, in which it was so named for Oedipus 41 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: was abandoned at birth and then fulfilled a prophecy, killing 42 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 2: his father, the king and marrying his mother, the queen, 43 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 2: whom he did not know because he was abandoned at birth. 44 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: That was his father and his mother. He ended up 45 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 2: having four kids with his mother, and after learning this, 46 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 2: Queen Jocasta hanged herself and Oedipus gouged out his eyes. 47 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: Perhaps appropriate action, yeah in his case at. 48 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: Least, yeah, so grossed out, he gouged out his own eyes. 49 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: And to be clear to the Greeks, the point of 50 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: this myth was not like, how gross is this? It 51 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: was like it was about how like the inevitability of 52 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: faith and the inability of humans to like change their 53 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: fate or their destiny, because he was this was a 54 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: prophecy that he ended up fulfilling despite trying really hard 55 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: not to write. Freud was like, I like that really 56 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: gross part. I'm going to use that to describe these 57 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: feelings that little kids have towards their parents. 58 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 2: I like the idea, though, that someone's writing this myth 59 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 2: and they're like, oh boys, I got one for you. 60 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 2: This one's so gnarly. What's it about? 61 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: Oh you just wait, Yeah, I'm not going to it's about. 62 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 2: It's about destiny whatever? Sure? 63 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: Sure? So yeah, I mean that's where that's where Freud 64 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: picked it up. Was I mean, it is perfectly suited 65 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: in that in that sense. 66 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, And we'll describe from kind of directly from the 67 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: Simply Psychology website what the edible complex is and it 68 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: occurs during the phallic stage of development ages three to six, 69 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 2: in which the source of libido or the life force 70 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: is concentrated in the erogenous zones of the child's body. 71 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 2: And during the stage, children experience an unconscious feeling of 72 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 2: desire for their opposite sex parent and jealousy and envy 73 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: toward their same sex parent. 74 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: Okay, it makes sense, it's a little it's a little jargony. 75 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: I also found one from Encyclopedia Britannica. It's a little 76 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: more lay person geared. They say the Oedipus complex in 77 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: psychoanalytic theory is a desire for sexual involvement with the 78 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: parent of the opposite sex in a cocomminant sense of 79 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: rivalry with the parent of the same sex. But it's 80 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: a crucial stage in the normal development process according to 81 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: psychoanalytic theory at least. 82 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that part is pretty key. And what's also key 83 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 2: is that Freud based this on a case one case 84 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: study of a four year old patient that he anonymized 85 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: as Little Hans. Apparently, Little Hans was brought in by 86 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 2: his father and had recently seen the collapse of a 87 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 2: horse pulling a heavy cart that really traumatized. 88 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: Him, to traumatized anybody, Sure, and. 89 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 2: He developed a fear of horses. 90 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: Sure. 91 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 2: So Hans's father said, you know what, He's developed all 92 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: these really specific anxieties. He feels really uneasy without mom around, 93 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 2: and he's really fixated on male genitalia, especially horse genitalia. 94 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: And Freud was like, yes, yes, I see very interesting. Yeah, 95 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: I'm sorry everybody. So he basically said, this all just 96 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: makes total sense. Check this out, Hans' father. All of 97 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 1: this comes from a foundational animosity that he has towards you, 98 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: his dad, And the reason that he's afraid of horses 99 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: because the horses represent you, his dad, and he's afraid 100 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: that you, his dad, are going to castrate him because 101 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: he secretly wants to sleep with his mother even though 102 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 1: he's four years old. And Freud's sycophantic secretary jumped to 103 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: his feet and started applauding, uncomfortably loudly. 104 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, which this. You know, if he went into a 105 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: you know, a shrink today and you heard something like this, 106 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 2: you'd say, thank you for your time, I'll be going 107 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 2: to see someone else. 108 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: You can actually probably file suit for something like that. 109 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, you probably could. But at the time this turned 110 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: out to be like the foundational legacy of Freud's psychoanalysis, 111 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,119 Speaker 2: which is just you know, bananas to think about. 112 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: Should we talk about girls first and take a break 113 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: or break and then girls? Let's talk about girls, okay, 114 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: because there are such things as girls, And Freud was like, well, 115 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: I guess I should probably talk about the girls too. 116 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: He didn't come up with the name electra complex. That 117 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: was Carl Jung, but he did take the oedipal complex 118 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: and apply it to girls and basically said, same thing, 119 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: but do the old switcheroo with the parents. The girls 120 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,679 Speaker 1: want to sleep with their father and they hate their mother. 121 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: But the whole thing is not to do with castration anxiety. 122 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 1: It's penis envying girls. 123 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 2: That's right. And another what I mentioned is the first key. 124 00:06:57,960 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 2: And by the way, I realized how creepy that sounded 125 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 2: when I say let's talk about girls, okay, by the 126 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 2: way I make it that way, okay. Good. His proposal was, 127 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 2: and this is very key, was that a kid that 128 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: does not undergo this experience of the edipal complex will 129 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 2: not fully mature sexually, and they will be stuck for life. 130 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 2: They're going to be stuck identifying with the opposite sex parent, 131 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 2: and they will never be able to have a normal, 132 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 2: socially acceptable love life and desires for people who aren't 133 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 2: in their family. 134 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. He basically said that an incomplete development through the 135 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: edipal complex is the basis of homosexuality. That's how he 136 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: would have put it at the time. And then the 137 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: other problem of it is you're stuck in that portion 138 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: of your development, doomed to forever, like, go through it, 139 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: even though you're never going to get past it. And 140 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: he said that guys like that turn out to be 141 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: real Norman Baits types, and all of his colleagues were like, 142 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: who is Norman Bates? And Freud was like, just wait, 143 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: just wait, because he's gonna knock your socks off when 144 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: he comes along in the early sixties. 145 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: I guess we take our break now, all right, we'll 146 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 2: be back right after this. Thanks, weet, shop shop stop. 147 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: Okay, chuck, So we're back. So the big question is 148 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: is all of this weird gross stuff correct? 149 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 2: Answer me, Well, most psychologists today and the world of 150 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 2: psychology as a whole, are pretty like bashful about even 151 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 2: talking about this. They're like, can we just kind of 152 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 2: forget all that stuff? We've moved on. It's completely discredited. 153 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: Most of Freud's theories are pretty discredited at this point, 154 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 2: but that's not to say that there isn't some support 155 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 2: for this still. 156 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: No, there have been papers that have come out that 157 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: seem to very strongly support the presence of Freud's Oedipus complex, 158 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: and one came out in two thousand and nine. It 159 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: was published in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B 160 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: and it made international news when it was published because 161 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: they studied these similarities, the physical characteristic similarities between men's 162 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 1: mothers and their wives, and they measured everything as like 163 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: jaw link. They did everything, and they were coming up 164 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: with correlations in like the ninety second percentile, so essentially 165 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 1: like photo copies between mom and wife. And they were like, see, 166 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: guys really want their moms. What you're gonna do? Dog's 167 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: gonna hunt kind of thing. And like I said, it 168 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: made international news, and luckily some other scientists were like, 169 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: let me see your data and went through and they're like, 170 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: this does not support your conclusions at all. 171 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, here's the thing I'm gonna go out on a limb. 172 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 2: Hold on to your hats. I'm gonna go on a 173 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 2: limb and say, I've seen plenty of examples where kids 174 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: end up married to someone that is maybe in some way, 175 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 2: like like a really good parent that they had of 176 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 2: the opposite sex or maybe of the same sex. Even 177 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 2: I don't necessarily think like it's the looks thing, but 178 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 2: like if you're like a really awesome dad, and you're 179 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 2: like super fun and funny, and you know, maybe you 180 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: have a certain job, like, and your daughter goes on 181 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: to marry somebody who has got like a great sense 182 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: of humor and has maybe have a similar interest as 183 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: something your father did. Like, I think that can be 184 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 2: a thing. I don't think it's always a thing, but 185 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 2: it's just sort of when you're raised with a parent 186 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: that you look up to and love and admire, you 187 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: may seek out people like that in your life. And 188 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 2: I think that's kind of all that is. 189 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: I think similarly, and maybe even more frequently or commonly, 190 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: people inadvertently or unconsciously seek out people who are like 191 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: their parents in the worst ways. 192 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, or sometimes completely seek out the opposite. 193 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: Yes, but that's conscious. 194 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 2: Yeah maybe so, But yeah, I see what you mean 195 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 2: for sure. 196 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so again there have been There was another paper 197 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: in the eighties that studied rats that basically said, like, yes, 198 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: these rats at least have Oedipus complexes that carry on. 199 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: So luckily psychology came up with some other stuff that said, like, okay, 200 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: kids do stuff like this when they're young. We don't 201 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: think it's the Oedipus complex. And luckily, things like attachment theory, 202 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: which we did an entire episode on that was pretty good. Yeah, 203 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: have less way less creepy. They've come along and offered 204 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: pretty good structures for understanding child development that is just 205 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: much less ichy than Freud's. 206 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 2: So you're just gonna summarize that rat study. You're not 207 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 2: gonna talk about rat ejaculation. 208 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: Do you want me to? No? 209 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: I think we should just leave that right now. 210 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: Okay, cool, So I think more than ever short Stuff 211 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: is out. 212 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 213 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 2: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 214 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.