1
00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,640
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and walking Stuff. I

2
00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:18,680
Speaker 1: never told you production of iHeartRadio, and.

3
00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,280
Speaker 2: Y'all, we are so excited for this episode. We're bringing

4
00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,480
Speaker 2: back a friend of the show, fellow podcasters who do

5
00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,760
Speaker 2: the work of preserving women in history. Yes, it is

6
00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:35,120
Speaker 2: What's Her Name podcast hosts and creators Olivia and Katie. Hello, Hi, Hello,

7
00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,720
Speaker 2: great to be here. Can you introduce yourself to our

8
00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,000
Speaker 2: listeners or reintroduce Hi.

9
00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:48,440
Speaker 3: I'm Olivia Michael and with my history professor's sister co host, Katie,

10
00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,839
Speaker 3: we're the hosts of What's Her Name? Podcast? What's What's

11
00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:53,159
Speaker 3: Your Name?

12
00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:53,559
Speaker 4: Podcast?

13
00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:54,080
Speaker 3: Katie?

14
00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:59,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I'm Katie and Olivia and I are sister

15
00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:01,840
Speaker 5: in real life, and I guess that's how we ended

16
00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,400
Speaker 5: up doing the podcast. Olivia is a professor of women's

17
00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,040
Speaker 5: and gender studies, so I guess a women's history project

18
00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:10,680
Speaker 5: was inevitable at some point.

19
00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,200
Speaker 3: And for I think it's eight years we've been.

20
00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,399
Speaker 5: Telling years, which is stories, yeah, women from world history,

21
00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,440
Speaker 5: putting women back in world history.

22
00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,240
Speaker 2: Yes, and I love that now. It feels like it's

23
00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,560
Speaker 2: been forever ago. And I realized when I was looking

24
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,399
Speaker 2: back on our episode with you, Olivia, because I know, Katie,

25
00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,560
Speaker 2: you couldn't join us at that time. It was April

26
00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:39,399
Speaker 2: twenty twenty. Things were happening, and things were happening. It

27
00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,959
Speaker 2: was the beginning of our home recording journey for all

28
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,160
Speaker 2: of us. I believe I remember being in the kitchen

29
00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,720
Speaker 2: because I didn't nowhere else to go. And now we've

30
00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,560
Speaker 2: kind of upgraded to closets or addics for candy, and

31
00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,040
Speaker 2: I was just like, wow, this feels like forever ago,

32
00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 2: because it was almost five years and you came to

33
00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,720
Speaker 2: us talking about Harriet Jacobs and nor Johan and we

34
00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,240
Speaker 2: had connected because we were all lists together, and we're like, yeah,

35
00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,160
Speaker 2: obviously we need to be interacting and having each other

36
00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,880
Speaker 2: on the podcast. Duh. But it's been been a minute,

37
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,560
Speaker 2: So let me ask you the dreaded question, how have

38
00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:18,200
Speaker 2: y'all been?

39
00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:30,480
Speaker 3: I think the short answer is good question. I think

40
00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,079
Speaker 3: I think we're doing well well.

41
00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,200
Speaker 5: One of the awesome things is to see how in

42
00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,880
Speaker 5: the past five years, eight years, I suppose, it's been

43
00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:45,320
Speaker 5: a great surprise to see how eager the world is

44
00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,320
Speaker 5: to hear the stories of women in history. And when

45
00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,360
Speaker 5: we started the podcast, we had no idea that we

46
00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,200
Speaker 5: can tell you the origin story. But you know, the

47
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,440
Speaker 5: short version is I wanted to do a podcast about

48
00:02:55,480 --> 00:03:00,960
Speaker 5: the forgotten women of history, and Olivia was like, nobody's going.

49
00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:01,280
Speaker 3: To listen to it?

50
00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,520
Speaker 5: Deeply cynical, yes, And I guess rightly. So she was like,

51
00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,640
Speaker 5: it's hard enough to convince people to listen to stories

52
00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,120
Speaker 5: about the already famous women. It's hard enough to get

53
00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,040
Speaker 5: them to care about that. And I wanted to do

54
00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,160
Speaker 5: women nobody had ever heard of, and who's going to

55
00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,160
Speaker 5: listen to that? But so the great takeaway for us

56
00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,680
Speaker 5: is people want to hear about it. You know, millions

57
00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:27,520
Speaker 5: of downloads later, people are ready and eager and excited,

58
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 5: and there are listeners all over the world who are

59
00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,320
Speaker 5: just eating this stuff up. So in that way, it's

60
00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,560
Speaker 5: just been really wonderful. Yeah, I've never been so happy

61
00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:37,040
Speaker 5: to be wrong.

62
00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,480
Speaker 2: We love that. And with all of that, the origin

63
00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,280
Speaker 2: stories and where we are today, can you give us

64
00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,800
Speaker 2: an update on what has been going on in the

65
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:46,960
Speaker 2: world of What's her name?

66
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:53,640
Speaker 3: Gosh, we have been busy. We wrote the four books, finished,

67
00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,120
Speaker 3: just finished the fourth. It's the book I've wanted to

68
00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,360
Speaker 3: write since I was seven, so I'm very excited about

69
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,720
Speaker 3: it and it comes out this fall, but we are

70
00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,480
Speaker 3: three other ones. We can talk about a couple books.

71
00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,880
Speaker 5: For middle grade books, we've written the Book of Sisters,

72
00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:11,720
Speaker 5: which is a history of the world through the stories

73
00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:16,160
Speaker 5: of sisters, illustrated by thirty eight different female illustrators from

74
00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,800
Speaker 5: all over the world. That was just such an amazing

75
00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,360
Speaker 5: progating And then probably the work I'll be proudest of

76
00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,040
Speaker 5: till the day I die, A Stinky History of Toilets,

77
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:32,279
Speaker 5: which is a richly illustrated really discussing the history of poop.

78
00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:37,760
Speaker 3: Around the world. Yeah, which every time the illustrations came back,

79
00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,159
Speaker 3: or every time I knew layout came back, my husband

80
00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:41,560
Speaker 3: would just kind of look at it and go, I

81
00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,480
Speaker 3: can't believe letting you get away with so much food.

82
00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,960
Speaker 5: But then we finally wrote something for grown ups, and

83
00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,719
Speaker 5: it is a history of the world in eighty lost women,

84
00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,840
Speaker 5: and it's just a complete, as complete as you can

85
00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,239
Speaker 5: be history of the world from the beginning of time

86
00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,719
Speaker 5: to the modern era, told through the stories of eighty

87
00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,040
Speaker 5: women that nobody's ever heard.

88
00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,200
Speaker 3: Of, because like, what if women were there the whole time? Surprise.

89
00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,960
Speaker 3: It's a bold proposition, but I think.

90
00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,840
Speaker 2: Controvers proved it controversial For sure, yeah, And as I

91
00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:19,880
Speaker 2: was like, we were researching through your work and I

92
00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,200
Speaker 2: popped up done to the two children's book, I was like,

93
00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,000
Speaker 2: this is amazing foremost both of them, because it was

94
00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,560
Speaker 2: the poop one, the toilet one, the stinky history of

95
00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:34,880
Speaker 2: toilets was a surprise. I didn't realize look at that,

96
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,440
Speaker 2: look like this. But of course I love the Book

97
00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,680
Speaker 2: of Sisters, the two of you being sisters and writing

98
00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:45,160
Speaker 2: this together and loving this journey. Seeing Korean sisters legends

99
00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,159
Speaker 2: being mentioned in the I was like, oh, look at that.

100
00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:48,799
Speaker 4: That's sad.

101
00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,760
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I'm trying to tell that story

102
00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,600
Speaker 3: for children, because I don't know if you're familiar with

103
00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,679
Speaker 3: the whole story, but it is. It is. It's not

104
00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:07,280
Speaker 3: it's not a PG story. They made My writing challenge, ever,

105
00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,640
Speaker 3: was how am I gonna tell this story right in

106
00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,560
Speaker 3: a way that doesn't traumatize everyone and get us fired.

107
00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,320
Speaker 2: Did y'all watch the horror movie based on that?

108
00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,159
Speaker 3: Just have you seen?

109
00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:19,520
Speaker 5: Oh?

110
00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:25,000
Speaker 3: No, I just I just recently. Yeah, I get Movies Award.

111
00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,719
Speaker 3: It's because so like But we'll talk about that later.

112
00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,160
Speaker 3: That's besides the point. My kids watch it and they

113
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,839
Speaker 3: can tell me all about perfect. We have our other

114
00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,080
Speaker 3: sister is obsessed with horror film. She's okay everyone, and

115
00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,000
Speaker 3: I'm sure she's seen it. She has will ask her

116
00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,680
Speaker 3: for okay, okay version.

117
00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:45,559
Speaker 2: I think you did a good job with the PG version,

118
00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:46,960
Speaker 2: like you kind of melted it down.

119
00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,000
Speaker 3: Like okay. Very impressed with myself.

120
00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was good and the art is gorgeous. And

121
00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,600
Speaker 2: for your newest or newer book, and that has been

122
00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,760
Speaker 2: released what's her name? A History of the World in

123
00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,719
Speaker 2: eighty Lost Women, it's really also amazing and I really

124
00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,800
Speaker 2: love the layout. It kind of it was nice to

125
00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 2: see because we kind of had similar ideas in I

126
00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,360
Speaker 2: think all that same level, like let's make it interactive,

127
00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,200
Speaker 2: let's have them kind of be a part of this,

128
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:15,200
Speaker 2: and you're asking questions and you're getting polls of people's opinions,

129
00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,760
Speaker 2: and I loved so much of that. So with that,

130
00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,880
Speaker 2: you kind of explained about this book. But can you

131
00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,360
Speaker 2: go into more depth about what this book is about.

132
00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,320
Speaker 5: We were approached to write a book based on the podcast,

133
00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:32,320
Speaker 5: and immediately I thought, what would make it fun for me?

134
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:34,640
Speaker 3: What would make an interesting challenge?

135
00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,760
Speaker 5: And I've taught world history at university for you know,

136
00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,800
Speaker 5: eleven or fifteen years something, I don't know how long,

137
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,560
Speaker 5: for a long time, and I just immediately thought, what

138
00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,120
Speaker 5: would be such an interesting challenge. Could I tell a

139
00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,120
Speaker 5: complete history of the world, you know, by like academic

140
00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,240
Speaker 5: standards of what you need to know after you come

141
00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:55,320
Speaker 5: out of a world history course.

142
00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:56,440
Speaker 3: Could I teach.

143
00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,080
Speaker 5: A history of the world using only the stories of

144
00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,520
Speaker 5: forgotten women? And immediately I was like, oh, now that

145
00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:07,160
Speaker 5: sounds fun, that sounds intriguing. And it turned out that

146
00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,080
Speaker 5: it was even easier than I thought it was going

147
00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:09,360
Speaker 5: to be.

148
00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,000
Speaker 3: That it was not.

149
00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:17,080
Speaker 5: Difficult to find women's stories that are that either are

150
00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,640
Speaker 5: emblematic of a moment in time or women who played

151
00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,000
Speaker 5: some hugely significant role in different moments in time from

152
00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,560
Speaker 5: the Stone Age all the way through the present day.

153
00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,440
Speaker 5: So I guess that was the beginning of it. And

154
00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,880
Speaker 5: then for a good year was it a full year?

155
00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:38,720
Speaker 3: Maybe longer? Olivia. Yeah, that's a theme with our work,

156
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,960
Speaker 3: is that we get offered a project and then we say,

157
00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,440
Speaker 3: how about instead of that project, we do this other

158
00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,920
Speaker 3: much more complicated, much more difficult, much more time consuming.

159
00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:58,880
Speaker 3: We don't even know if it's possible project instead, sure, okay,

160
00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,199
Speaker 3: but yeah, this one just it turned out so great.

161
00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:04,120
Speaker 4: I'm so proud of it.

162
00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,520
Speaker 5: And I think it was because of a maybe because

163
00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,480
Speaker 5: of my experience in the classroom. I wanted to make

164
00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,040
Speaker 5: it interactive, like you said, because that's how you get

165
00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,720
Speaker 5: the class engaged. You don't just say, here are the facts,

166
00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,439
Speaker 5: memorize them, and spit them back at me on the exam.

167
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,480
Speaker 5: You say, here's what we know, here's what we don't know.

168
00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,560
Speaker 5: Here are the different really sound theories that have a

169
00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,280
Speaker 5: lot of academics that agree with them.

170
00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:28,679
Speaker 3: Which one do you think?

171
00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,480
Speaker 5: So you get to pick as you go, and like

172
00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,760
Speaker 5: you said, there's a lot of like checklists, you choose,

173
00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,040
Speaker 5: you know what, how do we explain this phenomenon? And

174
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,560
Speaker 5: every one of the possible options in the checklist, every

175
00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,480
Speaker 5: one of them is a sound academic theory that's supported

176
00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,360
Speaker 5: by hundreds or thousands of different you know, professors and academics.

177
00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:49,640
Speaker 3: But you get to choose.

178
00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:51,839
Speaker 5: So it's yeah, kind of like taking you for a

179
00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:53,960
Speaker 5: ride through history, but you get it's to choose your

180
00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 5: own adventure of what you.

181
00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,760
Speaker 2: Did that you actually did to choose your own adventure

182
00:09:57,800 --> 00:09:59,360
Speaker 2: in part of this, and I was like, we wanted

183
00:09:59,400 --> 00:09:59,840
Speaker 2: to do this.

184
00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:00,800
Speaker 3: They did it.

185
00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:05,800
Speaker 2: It's amazing, envious, and very excited.

186
00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,600
Speaker 5: And that's how history should be. I think you know

187
00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,600
Speaker 5: that there's so many different stories. You get to choose

188
00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,439
Speaker 5: which ones resonate with you and which ones you want

189
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,120
Speaker 5: to construct the storyline from.

190
00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:19,319
Speaker 3: That's what makes it so fun.

191
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,520
Speaker 5: I'm not of the school of memorize these facts and

192
00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:25,199
Speaker 5: then spit them out on an exam.

193
00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,080
Speaker 3: That's the way you do history wrong. I think that's true.

194
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:34,079
Speaker 3: I especially like that approach, just because I got very

195
00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:38,520
Speaker 3: politely kicked out of an anthropology degree for that very thing,

196
00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,880
Speaker 3: for refusing to pick a side, for refusing to choose

197
00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,120
Speaker 3: one option and insist that it was the right one,

198
00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:46,880
Speaker 3: and they were like, you can't you have to choose.

199
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,800
Speaker 3: You can't say, well, we don't know. So I'm now

200
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,480
Speaker 3: very pleased that I was right. And even anthropology is

201
00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:57,560
Speaker 3: coming around now too. We don't know. We've pretended we

202
00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:59,840
Speaker 3: knew for a long time, but it could be any

203
00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,280
Speaker 3: these options right for thinking answers are boring to me.

204
00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,120
Speaker 3: I always prefer questions. I will take better questions over

205
00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:11,600
Speaker 3: answers in any situation. So it's fun to force people

206
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:19,880
Speaker 3: to adopt that theory of looking at history.

207
00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:23,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that is it can be frustrating sometimes

208
00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:27,200
Speaker 1: as a podcaster when I'm like, I want to find

209
00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,840
Speaker 1: the answer and I think it exists in history, and

210
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:31,320
Speaker 1: it's like.

211
00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,000
Speaker 3: No, we don't know.

212
00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:34,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, no idea.

213
00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,440
Speaker 5: I love to fill in the gaps and invent my

214
00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,080
Speaker 5: own I mean, will I will construct the plotline in

215
00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,240
Speaker 5: my head and I'll say this is the way it

216
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,560
Speaker 5: went in my head, So I will land somewhere, but

217
00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,040
Speaker 5: also allow other people to land in different places if

218
00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,360
Speaker 5: they want to construct, they want to fill in the

219
00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:53,320
Speaker 5: gaps in a different way.

220
00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, And my favorite thing about history is that you

221
00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,960
Speaker 3: can be one hundred percent sure you know what happened.

222
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,600
Speaker 3: We know what happened here, and even though this happened

223
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:08,160
Speaker 3: a thousand years ago, tomorrow we might find something that

224
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,360
Speaker 3: means that everything we knew was wrong. And I love

225
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:16,880
Speaker 3: that you can be still discovering completely new information about

226
00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,240
Speaker 3: things that happened thousands of years ago.

227
00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:22,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's amazing.

228
00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,640
Speaker 1: We have a segment on this show called female First,

229
00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,040
Speaker 1: and it's astounding to me how they'll be like, you know,

230
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,360
Speaker 1: just a couple of years ago, we learned something about

231
00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:45,800
Speaker 1: that changed everything. Yes, So with all of that in mind,

232
00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,000
Speaker 1: it's daunting enough to write a book, then you've got

233
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,480
Speaker 1: all this complicated history. Can you tell us about the

234
00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,680
Speaker 1: writing process that went into this. How did it the

235
00:12:57,800 --> 00:12:59,559
Speaker 1: writing and research? How did that play out?

236
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,760
Speaker 5: Some Initially, I think because I'm the world historian, the

237
00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,800
Speaker 5: job was mine to at least lay out the big

238
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,760
Speaker 5: picture outline. So what I did first was sit down

239
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,959
Speaker 5: and say, okay, so what are the major episodes of

240
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,920
Speaker 5: world history that I want to make sure we include

241
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,640
Speaker 5: that are in the book. So I outlined all of

242
00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,360
Speaker 5: those from the Stone Age to the modern era. Okay,

243
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,520
Speaker 5: we need to have this episode. You know, we're definitely

244
00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,319
Speaker 5: going to need something from nineteenth century China. I mean,

245
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,240
Speaker 5: that was this whole show that we definitely need something

246
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,680
Speaker 5: from there, you know, just those major episodes. Had that outlined,

247
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:40,240
Speaker 5: and then we looked at all the episodes we had

248
00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,680
Speaker 5: already recorded and thought and sort of slotted some of

249
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,079
Speaker 5: those in. Know, this tells this this is great Neolithic stories,

250
00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:49,120
Speaker 5: We'll slot.

251
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:49,400
Speaker 3: Her in there.

252
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,520
Speaker 5: And then where there were gaps where we hadn't had

253
00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,080
Speaker 5: episodes of particular moments in time, you know, that's when

254
00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:01,360
Speaker 5: the research began to go. Research in more depth, for example,

255
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:06,880
Speaker 5: like ninth century Africa in order to see what women's

256
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:07,960
Speaker 5: stories were going on there.

257
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,120
Speaker 3: So there was some.

258
00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,600
Speaker 5: New and in depth research in some areas, and then

259
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,480
Speaker 5: in other areas it was like, oh, we already have

260
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,280
Speaker 5: like twelve episodes about this episode, so this moment in history,

261
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,600
Speaker 5: so we'll have to narrow it down and choose just

262
00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,240
Speaker 5: one or two of the women to tell this story.

263
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,400
Speaker 5: So that was kind of the big picture process, and

264
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:33,080
Speaker 5: then we just went through chronologically. We wrote it chronologically

265
00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,200
Speaker 5: over the course of a year and would give ourselves

266
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,120
Speaker 5: deadlines at the end of every month we have to have.

267
00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,720
Speaker 5: It was a chapter a month basically. And then because

268
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,360
Speaker 5: we literally co wrote it using the same document, it

269
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,680
Speaker 5: was on Google docs that we both had access to,

270
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,680
Speaker 5: and we were just in there sort of typing and

271
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,760
Speaker 5: having a conversation with each other in the Google doc

272
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:54,360
Speaker 5: as we went.

273
00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,000
Speaker 3: And she's very politely not saying that we had deadline,

274
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,320
Speaker 3: but I narrowly gave her a nervous breakdown because she

275
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:08,880
Speaker 3: did I was having a rough here and I am.

276
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,800
Speaker 3: I am not great on deadlines at the best of times,

277
00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:16,160
Speaker 3: and it was it was bad, and bless her for

278
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:17,440
Speaker 3: putting up with me.

279
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,440
Speaker 5: The farther you get into the book, because we wrote

280
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,560
Speaker 5: it chronologically. The farther you get into the book, the

281
00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,320
Speaker 5: more of it I wrote, the more of Katie.

282
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:26,520
Speaker 4: I guess.

283
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:31,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. But we finished it. We did it. And here's

284
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,120
Speaker 3: my psa to the world. Don't write two books at

285
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,560
Speaker 3: the same time. Don't ever agree to write two books

286
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:43,360
Speaker 3: at the same time. Oh you can't.

287
00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:48,000
Speaker 5: It's excuse how but it's part of things.

288
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,320
Speaker 4: Well, congrats finishing it.

289
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, Samantha and I can relate so

290
00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,560
Speaker 1: much to all of this if we ever get to

291
00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,720
Speaker 1: hang out and person, we could if we.

292
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,800
Speaker 2: Did give like tales like yes, of the book.

293
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,320
Speaker 1: Writing process and deadlines and all of that. But one

294
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,240
Speaker 1: thing that I think that we could probably really relate

295
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:18,920
Speaker 1: to is the difficulty of choosing whom you're going to

296
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,840
Speaker 1: feature and what you're going to do. So for for us,

297
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,840
Speaker 1: it was a little different because ours was I think

298
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,000
Speaker 1: more condensed in terms of like who we were featuring,

299
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,720
Speaker 1: but it did feel like by featuring someone, you're leaving

300
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,960
Speaker 1: someone else out, and like, what are you saying by

301
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:39,880
Speaker 1: choosing this person and not this person? Yes, So, how

302
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,320
Speaker 1: how was that for you? And how did you choose

303
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:43,800
Speaker 1: the people you were going to feature.

304
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,840
Speaker 5: That's a great question that only somebody who has been

305
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:52,600
Speaker 5: through it would know to ask our way to make

306
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,520
Speaker 5: a big paint of that in the intro of like,

307
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,000
Speaker 5: this is ah history.

308
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,000
Speaker 3: It is a history, it is not the history. And

309
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,520
Speaker 3: we could write this book with eighty different women and

310
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,720
Speaker 3: it would be everybit as accurate and true to history

311
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,159
Speaker 3: and be a completely different story. You know, the idea

312
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,080
Speaker 3: that there's only certain people in history that matter that

313
00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,280
Speaker 3: should be included is ridiculous, and that you can tell

314
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:21,680
Speaker 3: it so many different ways, and so the yeah, I

315
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,280
Speaker 3: get lots of people. I'm sure you get the same

316
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,280
Speaker 3: that assume that our main problem in writing and podcasting

317
00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,000
Speaker 3: everything is finding enough women, like aren't you going to

318
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,800
Speaker 3: run out of women soon? Which is still mind blowing

319
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:36,960
Speaker 3: to me.

320
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:37,200
Speaker 5: No.

321
00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:41,600
Speaker 3: In fact, there have been more than many one hundred

322
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,600
Speaker 3: and fifty one women in the whole history of the

323
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,960
Speaker 3: world who did something problem. But the problem is always

324
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,760
Speaker 3: the opposite of you know, we started with three hundred

325
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,200
Speaker 3: and twenty women and had to keep cutting it down.

326
00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,760
Speaker 3: You know, our publishers like, you cannot you cannot go

327
00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,040
Speaker 3: over one hundred. You must keep it under one hundred.

328
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,439
Speaker 5: And I think, so I made sure to sort of

329
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,639
Speaker 5: address that in the introduction and then at the conclusion again,

330
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,080
Speaker 5: as you said, Olivia, like, what I find wonderful about

331
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:16,080
Speaker 5: history is that there is no set cast of main characters,

332
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:21,919
Speaker 5: and that history is like this treasure trove of human

333
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,240
Speaker 5: stories and truths that you can just dive into again

334
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,200
Speaker 5: and again. It's almost endless, all the stories that have

335
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,520
Speaker 5: been lived before and all the things people have learned

336
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,440
Speaker 5: and done in the past. And so what's so beautiful

337
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,719
Speaker 5: about history is that every time you find a new person,

338
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,080
Speaker 5: you find a new truth that they lived or that

339
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,840
Speaker 5: they learned. And so the beauty is keep on diving in,

340
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,960
Speaker 5: keep on finding new characters, Get write another story with

341
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,360
Speaker 5: a different cast, and see how that story plays out.

342
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,639
Speaker 5: So I think, I mean, you couldn't blame people for

343
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,240
Speaker 5: believing there is a fixed cast of main characters, because

344
00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:58,920
Speaker 5: that's what we were taught in school, and that's how

345
00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,760
Speaker 5: the textbooks make it. You know, like there was this

346
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,520
Speaker 5: important person and if you left that person out, you

347
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,320
Speaker 5: wouldn't have the complete history or you know, things like that.

348
00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:09,960
Speaker 5: But it's just the more I teach world history, the

349
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,919
Speaker 5: more I know that's just not true. And that the

350
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,480
Speaker 5: bigger stories always involved millions of people, and you could

351
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,520
Speaker 5: tell that episode through any one of those people who

352
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,560
Speaker 5: lived it. It's sort of like switching cameras in a movie.

353
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,360
Speaker 5: You know, you can tell the same story, but from

354
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,080
Speaker 5: this perspective, now switch to this perspective or this perspective,

355
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,960
Speaker 5: And every time you add more characters, it makes a

356
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,080
Speaker 5: story so much more interesting. It comes alive in completely

357
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:41,560
Speaker 5: new ways. So it can be painful to choose the characters.

358
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 5: But as long as in doing that you show people like, wow,

359
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,640
Speaker 5: this story is totally fascinating and different in new ways. Now,

360
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 5: then maybe we can all realize that we could choose

361
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,320
Speaker 5: all kinds of different people from history and it doesn't

362
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,639
Speaker 5: mean that we're ignoring or erasing the other. It just

363
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:05,480
Speaker 5: means we're switching cameras to look at it in new ways.

364
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 5: I think that's the way we're headed. I even think

365
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,280
Speaker 5: that's the way textbooks are headed, the way that things

366
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,560
Speaker 5: have been involving in the last ten years in academia.

367
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love everything that was said because we again

368
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,280
Speaker 2: Annie was talking about the fact that we were like, oh,

369
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,200
Speaker 2: we don't want to exclude anybody. We want to bring

370
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,879
Speaker 2: everybody in, and then our editors are like no, no, no, no, no,

371
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,000
Speaker 2: we have to cut this, we have to cut this

372
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 2: and this, And I'm like, but why, But there's so

373
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:30,159
Speaker 2: much to that in knowing that if there was a

374
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,480
Speaker 2: very small choice in finding women is not because they're

375
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,320
Speaker 2: not there. It's because either A they haven't been discovered

376
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 2: or B they've been hidden or the history has trying

377
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,879
Speaker 2: to erase them. But I love that as more and

378
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 2: more content creators, more and more professors like yourself, and

379
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 2: more and more people coming out discovering or retelling these stories,

380
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,639
Speaker 2: and that's exactly why books like this are so important.

381
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 2: But you know, at the very top, when you were

382
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 2: talking about the book, you did say something about you

383
00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 2: knew you had to include this these specific people. So

384
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,880
Speaker 2: with that, who are some of these people? You're like, Yeah,

385
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 2: before we even write this book, I know these are

386
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,280
Speaker 2: the people I want to include. Who were they? And

387
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 2: why ah?

388
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 3: And why yes?

389
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 5: Just to speak generally, some of them are like, we

390
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 5: personally love them so much that they have to go

391
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 5: in because like this is my personal hero or something

392
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 5: like that. And then other times I think I felt

393
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:29,399
Speaker 5: really strongly about choosing this or that woman because to

394
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 5: use the same metaphor, this shift of cameras totally changes

395
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 5: the way that we perceive the event. And the one

396
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 5: that springs to mind for me is including in talking

397
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 5: about the story of the cult of Liberty and the

398
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 5: American Revolution and you know that whole entire episode in

399
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,920
Speaker 5: History where the camera is usually on Thomas Jefferson and

400
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 5: George Washington and you know those characters. If you shift

401
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,199
Speaker 5: the camera to the enslaved woman who is in the

402
00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 5: room while they're all sitting around the dining room table

403
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 5: talking about liberty and how are we going to.

404
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:02,920
Speaker 3: Pull this off?

405
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 5: While a slave is serving them, you know, at their

406
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,360
Speaker 5: dining room table, shift to her, how does she see

407
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 5: the event and how does it all play out for her? Well,

408
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 5: that completely, I mean, that just blows wide open the

409
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 5: whole story of the American Revolution in the most enlightening

410
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,679
Speaker 5: and amazing way. So it was those kind of camera

411
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,640
Speaker 5: shifts too that were like, we have to do this

412
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 5: because it's just.

413
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 3: So brilliant when you shift cameras like that in these episodes. Yeah,

414
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,919
Speaker 3: I mean an obvious one for me that I know,

415
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 3: for you know, for when we did episodes on them,

416
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,640
Speaker 3: we just kept going How did we not know any

417
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,639
Speaker 3: of this? How are we not talking about this? Was

418
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 3: the fact that I will insert the academic Arguably but definitely,

419
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 3: the two most important figures in the Spanish colonization of

420
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 3: what is now Mexico are women who no one outside

421
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 3: of Mexico has ever heard of. They're more important than Cortez.

422
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 3: They're more important. I mean, they are the key to

423
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 3: that entire era of history, to what happens, to how

424
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 3: it happens to, you know, the fundamental shift in how

425
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 3: the world behaves toward the New World, and nobody even

426
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 3: talks about them, which is ridiculous, It's absurd. And whenever

427
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,239
Speaker 3: I tell people, you know, I just sort of casually mention, oh,

428
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 3: by the way, did you know that? And their minds

429
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 3: are blown and they're angry. They're angry that this was

430
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 3: never told, even though everyone at the time knew, they

431
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 3: were talking about it at the time. It's not like

432
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 3: nobody knew she was there. You know, Molentcine is central

433
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 3: in every picture of Cortes interacting with anybody, and yet

434
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 3: we just pretend she, oh, some woman. I don't know,

435
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 3: we don't know why there's a woman there. That's the

436
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 3: biggest person in the entire picture, and Cortes is standing

437
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 3: behind her as a little shrimpy you know nothing.

438
00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: I love that you come in with like a party

439
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 2: conversation with this. Did you know.

440
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 3: I'm very annoying to be around. I'm sure I'm never

441
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 3: not on my soapbox. I like, I tried bally hard.

442
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, I crowded best just standing next to someone and

443
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,360
Speaker 5: be like, so, what do you know about the conquest

444
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 5: of Mexico?

445
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 2: This is the information I would want to know.

446
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 3: My eighteen year old pointed out to me a couple

447
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 3: of months ago just how ridiculous I am. In a

448
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 3: good way. He was laughing with love. But this was

449
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 3: an entirely normal interaction to me. But we were just

450
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,479
Speaker 3: driving along somewhere in the car and we're just silent,

451
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,159
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, I said, so do you

452
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 3: want to hear my most controversial archaeological opinion? And he

453
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 3: just burst out laughing. And I didn't even I couldn't

454
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 3: even for a minute. I was like, why is he leven?

455
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 3: And then I went, oh, that is probably a weird,

456
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 3: weird conversation starter for a mother and her teen age

457
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 3: child in a car. And he just started off, He's like,

458
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 3: you're so weird. I love it. But then we talked,

459
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 3: you know, for an hour about our most controversial archaeological opinions,

460
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 3: and so yeah, we're nerds to the core, and that's

461
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 3: where I think all of this comes out of true

462
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 3: nerdy passion, right, all of this. We're so excited about

463
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 3: it that you can't help, I hope, but also be

464
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 3: excited about it when you are leading or hearing us enthus.

465
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 2: Teaching the next generation to have that conversation as well.

466
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 2: I mean, come on, yeah, that's what a good parent does.

467
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 4: So great job.

468
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 3: Yeah he did apparently go to school and tell everyone

469
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 3: about my most controversial archaeologicalis.

470
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 6: I love it sharing it. This is how we read history.

471
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 2: Well, let's look behind the cards a little bit in

472
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: this writing process because we talked about the people you did. So,

473
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 2: was there something you planned at the beginning in this

474
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: writing or for the book but changed as you were

475
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 2: in the process of writing it?

476
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, quite a bit.

477
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 5: The list of women who were included changed as we

478
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 5: went pretty regularly. And it was funny because we had

479
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 5: already given the list to our editor because he'd sent

480
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 5: it on to their promo team.

481
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 3: You know, and they were using it to.

482
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 5: Send the book out to different countries, you know, all

483
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 5: those kinds of things, and then we'd be like, oh,

484
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 5: well the list has actually changed now, so now it's

485
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 5: these people, you know. And then a month later, okay,

486
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 5: and we've had to take her out because we realized

487
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 5: we really need to tell this story instead, so now

488
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 5: this woman is included in.

489
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 3: So it was it was constantly tweaking of like era

490
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 3: and region and theme and story, you know, just like

491
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 3: every possible cross cross reference.

492
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 5: We really wanted to make sure that we were choosing

493
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 5: as diverse a group as we possibly could in all ways,

494
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 5: including geographical and time period and what kind of a

495
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 5: story are they telling? Is this an athlete, is this

496
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 5: a politician, is this an artist? You know, all of

497
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 5: those things that we were working really hard to make

498
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 5: sure that we had representation from all those different categories.

499
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 5: So it was it was a endless juggling, endless juggling,

500
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 5: I think, And that's why I think at the end

501
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 5: we said, if we chose in a different eighty Women,

502
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 5: the story would be enlightening in a new way.

503
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 3: It would be a very different story.

504
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 5: I think it would be really fun, even like a

505
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 5: game which they would be the world's nerdiest board game.

506
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 5: Once again, randomly select, randomly select these women, and then

507
00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 5: construct a story that to them all together across time

508
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 5: and across the world.

509
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 3: I think that'll be so fun next Fourth of July barbecue. Right,

510
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 3: That is genuinely the kind of thing we do at

511
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 3: family gatherings with our family, Like, you know, let's let's

512
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 3: construct this timeliner. Let's go through the slide show of

513
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 3: the history of the Ottoman Empire at the fourth of July.

514
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 4: We're weird. That's great.

515
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was there was one woman who we decided

516
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 3: to sub out for someone else and then found out

517
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 3: that they had put her on the cover, so we

518
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 3: had to put her back in, which I was happy.

519
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 3: We love her, but it was like, yow, she's on

520
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 3: the cover now, I guess get back in.

521
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: Relatable we've had these are like, oh, I think we

522
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: mentioned them, but we never mentioned them again. Yeah, yeah,

523
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 2: so we've been there.

524
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 4: Yes, there's a lot of moving parts when we're writing

525
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 4: a book.

526
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, the cover we've learned is very important.

527
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, And like initially the illustrations they because the venus

528
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 5: of Willendorff is in the book and the illustration of

529
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 5: the venus, which I personally loved. The illustrator of the

530
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 5: cover is Ellen Winata in Singapore and her illustration the

531
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 5: Venus of Willendorf is just gold.

532
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 3: I loved it.

533
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 5: And that was on the cover originally, and then somebody

534
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 5: took the venus off the cover and then you know,

535
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 5: for me, that was like, no, she was going to

536
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,719
Speaker 5: be if she was on the binding, she was going

537
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 5: to be the icon of the book.

538
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 3: And then she wasn't. Maybe somebody was like, it was boobs.

539
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 3: Maybe they'll let us buy her and put her on

540
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 3: a T shirt. Yeah, maybe, yeah, March. You know, so

541
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 3: we can write books full of poop for children, but

542
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 3: no ancient boobs, but books stone age. The rules of

543
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 3: publishing are strange.

544
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, I am speaking of merch though, now that you

545
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 5: mention it.

546
00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 3: Look, I'm wearing a shirt.

547
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 5: This is one of the the new shirts that we

548
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 5: made from the It's just got a line from the book,

549
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 5: Less Patriarchy, more Elephant. That's one of the options when

550
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 5: you take the Ancient Empire's test, which empire would you

551
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 5: have lived in?

552
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 3: That's one of the options.

553
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 5: If your personality is less patriarchy, more elephant, then it

554
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 5: turns out you lived in ancient Vietnam. So yeah, Olivia

555
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 5: really wanted that line on a T shirt.

556
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 3: It has to be on a T shirt with no context, right,

557
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 3: just yes, yes, the people who know will know your bond.

558
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 6: It.

559
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 4: We have one I still want to do.

560
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, I think there will be balls.

561
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 3: Remember that distinctly.

562
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: Well, all of this research, did you run across anything

563
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: that really surprised you or something that you discovered that

564
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: you hadn't heard before even doing all this research?

565
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 5: Constantly, constantly, Yeah, And that's the whole story of the

566
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 5: podcast too. For eight years, we're just constantly encountering stuff

567
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 5: we had never heard of, you know, almost every episode

568
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 5: these women we've never heard of also, And I guess

569
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 5: that's what so makes the podcast so fun for us.

570
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 5: It's going to school, you know, we're still in school

571
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 5: eight years later. And our general strategy is, well, people

572
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 5: who've written biographies will approach us to be on the podcast,

573
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 5: and then we learn about the woman that way. But

574
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 5: we also like to just approach experts in all fields

575
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 5: all over the world and just say to them, is

576
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 5: there a woman in your field that you think deserves

577
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 5: more attention than she gets? And they always say yes, always,

578
00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 5: and it's almost always a woman we've never heard of either.

579
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 5: So yeah, every episode we make is so fun for

580
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 5: us because we get to deep dive into this story

581
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 5: that we'd never heard of either. So I mean, as

582
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 5: people who have taught the subject for a decade, that

583
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 5: is so thrilling and so encouraging. I think there's just

584
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 5: so much out there. The work is being done. It

585
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 5: is absolutely being done. Up to eleven, there is so

586
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 5: so much out there, and like I said, the world

587
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 5: is ready for it. I think all these books are

588
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 5: being published, all these people are working on these projects.

589
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 5: So we're like right on the cusp of it entering

590
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 5: the mainstream historical narrative. And I think for the next

591
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 5: generation the story is going to be radically different.

592
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 3: It's going to be awesome because I think that is right.

593
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 3: That's the power that is sometimes recognized, not usually not

594
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 3: recognized about teaching, is that you're setting the normal right

595
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 3: that we all came up through. When I was a

596
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 3: women's studies undergrad the narrative was women didn't do stuff.

597
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 3: It wasn't their fault, they weren't allowed to, but mostly

598
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: they didn't do stuff, and there was this kind of

599
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 3: feeling that you were sort of shoehorning women into the story. Well,

600
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 3: you're just trying to go find a woman so that

601
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 3: you can she wasn't as good or she didn't do things,

602
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 3: and that was that was the women's studies people narrative, right,

603
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 3: It wasn't their fault, but they just didn't And so

604
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 3: watching it shift as everyone went, oh, no, In fact,

605
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 3: women were always doing stuff. All you have to do

606
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 3: is kind of poke a tiny bit and they just

607
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 3: come pouring out. It's not like you're having to go,

608
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 3: you know, dig through layers of stuff to find the

609
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 3: one woman you could possibly maybe justify. It's there's so many,

610
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 3: there's so many stories constantly just you know, falling out

611
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 3: of every every pocket of the universe whenever you start

612
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 3: looking for them. And I love that the problem is

613
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 3: we're having to say no, right, We're having to just

614
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 3: like say no to whole categories. We've just we can't

615
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 3: do any more of this, and we can't we have

616
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 3: too many white Americans and we can't do another white

617
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 3: American for a year. Or you know that we're having

618
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 3: to you know, turn down things instead of go searching

619
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 3: for things. Is a wonderful problem.

620
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that there's so much And speaking of

621
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 2: searching for things, Uh, you talk about legendary goddesses and

622
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 2: mythical women in your both of your books, the Sister

623
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 2: Book and in the Newest Book, and here we talk

624
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 2: about a lot of goddesses and legends, but we also

625
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 2: talk about the undertones that is often either as based

626
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 2: on some awful stereotype or sometimes it's like really banking

627
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 2: on the fact that they did so much. So do

628
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,959
Speaker 2: you have this like almost two opposites when it comes

629
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: to legendary goddesses and or.

630
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:07,280
Speaker 3: All of these people.

631
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 2: Can you talk about what you found as you're researching

632
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 2: for your podcast and as you're researching for your book

633
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 2: that kind of talks about and how it implies how

634
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 2: they saw women in those like goddess peoples.

635
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 3: It's still my favorite part in the whole book. Yeah,

636
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 3: And I think that I think that's a really important

637
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 3: point that mythology matters, these core stories that we carry

638
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 3: in our culture and form everything the way we think

639
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 3: about everything. But also we often tend to act the

640
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 3: same way about like that, well, these these myths are old,

641
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 3: and therefore this is just this is the myth, This

642
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 3: is the story, and you'll get accused of trying to

643
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 3: you know, change it, or why are you being you know, oh,

644
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 3: you're trying to pc up this myth. When myths are

645
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 3: ass malleable as anything else. The myths that you choose,

646
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 3: the way you tell them, the things that you highlight

647
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 3: in those stories, are as flexible and as movable as

648
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 3: any other story. And that if you look at the way,

649
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 3: even like the standard Greek mythology that every American kid

650
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 3: learns in junior high, if you look at the way

651
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 3: that was taught in my parents' generation versus my generation

652
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 3: versus what my kids were learning in high school, it's

653
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 3: so radically different, and it's all the same content, but

654
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 3: just the framing of it is so different. And so

655
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 3: I think, you know, we have these narratives around, Like

656
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 3: one that I really liked taking on in there was

657
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 3: the myth of the mother, that the good mother, and

658
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 3: the you know, we have this nurturing mother myth, which

659
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 3: you know, in the nineties and then again right now

660
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people are pulling back to

661
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 3: and we have this kind of earth mother nurturing thing,

662
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 3: which is true and great and wonderful and also there's

663
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 3: the exact opposite, and every shade of gray in between

664
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 3: is available in mythology and often in the same stories,

665
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 3: and just how we decide to tell it. Is the

666
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 3: story about a nurturing, loving earth mother or is this

667
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 3: story about a terrifying goddess of death? Yes, at the

668
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:26,399
Speaker 3: same time. And so when you realize how how much

669
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 3: you can shift those framings around and how you can

670
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 3: make those stories do work in the present, you recognize

671
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 3: the way those mythologies are being either weaponizing or even

672
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,240
Speaker 3: just you know, utilizing these stories.

673
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 5: Like I said, the camera shift, Yeah, they're just looking

674
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 5: at it with certain filters.

675
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And that you can and should and we

676
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 3: always haven't always will do that shift the way you're

677
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 3: looking at these core stories, and that they can mean

678
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 3: whatever people now decide they want them to mean, and

679
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 3: that can be you know, good or bad or value neutral.

680
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 3: But you need to be aware that these aren't just

681
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 3: you know, core mythologies that you can't mess with. But no,

682
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 3: of course you mess with them. That's what mythologies are

683
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 3: for everybody has always messed with them.

684
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: Well with that, since you love this, I did see

685
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 2: like a few like crossovers but who would be your

686
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 2: favorite mythological goddess that you love to talk about?

687
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 3: Or oh geez, the question favorites?

688
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: I know, I gotta ask.

689
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 3: Because I get like, you know, you've I'm sure you

690
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 3: do it too. People are like, what's your favorite? And

691
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 3: you think of one, and then later you're like, oh,

692
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 3: I forgot, like super I would have, yeah, because we

693
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 3: were saying we can't even remember what we wrote. I know.

694
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 5: I love the Mesopotamian Inana and that story. Yes, what

695
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 5: happened she turned her sister into a chunk of meat

696
00:38:58,280 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 5: and hung her on the.

697
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 3: Wall rotten and let her rot on the wall.

698
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 5: I just as sisters, you know. But I love those

699
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 5: kind of plot twists in the ancient myths. It's like weird, weird.

700
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 5: I don't think anybody today they would think of that

701
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 5: kind of plot element.

702
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that, which tells us that we're definitely

703
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 3: not understanding it, right, there's something happening there that we're

704
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 3: not understanding.

705
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 5: The cultural truth about meat hanging on the wall or

706
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 5: something like that. Yeah, I love the Moregan. She's gonna

707
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 5: she's gonna be my favorite, of course, something that's going

708
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 5: to be my Halloween costume.

709
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 3: Oh ay, did you choose. Yeah, I think for me,

710
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 3: she's they're in actually two of our books because they're

711
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 3: so I think brilliant, and they're they're so interesting in

712
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 3: that they the story itself is doing that work that

713
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 3: I was just talking about, of of change, the framing

714
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 3: and pointing out that you can see something from so

715
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 3: many perspectives. It's this mythological story of these twin sisters

716
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 3: who are conjoined at the back, they're conjoined at their spine,

717
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:19,800
Speaker 3: and they are demigods, goddesses, it's not those categories aren't

718
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 3: as cut and dry in Polynesian mythology. And they are

719
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 3: tasked with taking the knowledge of tattoo from Fiji to

720
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 3: Samoa and so but they are told very strictly, there's

721
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 3: very important here's the technology, here's how you do it.

722
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,280
Speaker 3: And there's one very important rule. You only tattoo women,

723
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 3: never men. Men are not allowed to get tattoos. And

724
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 3: then they start swimming to Samoa from Fiji, and along

725
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 3: the way there's all these adventures. They meet a giant clam.

726
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 3: They try to dive down to the giant clam and

727
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 3: a huge tidal wave whether or not the giant clam

728
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 3: is evil or if it's just a coincidence. There's different versions,

729
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 3: and a huge wave breaks them apart, and so for

730
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 3: the first time they're seeing each other's faces. They've been

731
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 3: back to back their whole life. They're seeing each other's faces.

732
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 3: They continue to swim and they arrive in Samoa, but

733
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 3: the whole you know, seeing each other and almost drowning

734
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 3: and giant clam incident has mixed up this song in

735
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 3: their head. They were singing a song to remind themselves

736
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 3: only tattoo women, never men. And when they arrive, they

737
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 3: tell them here's the most important rule. You only tattoo men,

738
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 3: not women. And they teach everyone in Samoa tattoo and

739
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 3: for many generations tattoo and Samoa is only for men,

740
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 3: not for women. Now, this story blows my mind because

741
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 3: it's a story about how that is wrong. Right, Yeah,

742
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:53,280
Speaker 3: it's a story about we screwed up and you weren't

743
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 3: supposed to be doing this. But that's why men get

744
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 3: tattoos and women don't. This is if this is the

745
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 3: origin story and you know what's wrong, why are you

746
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 3: still doing it that way?

747
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 6: Right?

748
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 3: It's so fascinating. So is it actually a story? It's

749
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 3: the origin story of tattoo? But is actually is it

750
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 3: actually an origin story of patriarchy? Is it actually an

751
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 3: origin story of Uh? They were living in a world

752
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 3: upside down? Yeah, we're living in and or that. Once

753
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 3: you get stuck in yeah, and once you get stuck

754
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 3: in the wrong loop, you just you can't get out

755
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 3: of it. What's the message of the story? What a

756
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 3: what a weird story. Yeah, to enshrine at the center

757
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 3: of your society, it's so fascinating mm hmm. And they

758
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 3: now do tattoo women too, right, but it was a

759
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 3: long time that they did not How long did it

760
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 3: take a long time? Hundreds of years?

761
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 2: Wow? Yes, I love that. I love that story so much.

762
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this is amazing because I don't

763
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 2: think I knew much about uh, these goddesses. I was like, wow,

764
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 2: this is an interesting idea. And as well as a

765
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 2: change of history, you're.

766
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 3: Like, well, woops.

767
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 5: That myth served as a useful shorthand for the rest

768
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 5: of the book too, because then we could just say

769
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 5: this is a tattoo the men's society, and then you

770
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 5: know all that that implies, Like, okay, so this is

771
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 5: a patriarchy. That's sort of maybe on accident or upside

772
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 5: down world.

773
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a whoopsie, but we're still in it.

774
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 3: We're still in You might even know it's doing it wrong,

775
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 3: but it keeps doing it right.

776
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: This is the lesson that we have yet to learn.

777
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: But one day maybe maybe. Oh gosh, I love this

778
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 2: so much. I love these conversations. And you've already kind

779
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 2: of hinted at it, and you already said you told

780
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 2: a sacret. So I won't push too much. Put to

781
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 2: put it on on on Mike on record. But are

782
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 2: there any other projects or even extensions to this book

783
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 2: that you have planned for the future.

784
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 5: We have another book coming out in October me Hearty's

785
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 5: Oh oh, I can say, well.

786
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 3: A certain kind of life for me.

787
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that you've been wanting to do this childhood,

788
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: which I excited about.

789
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 3: Our family is fully obsessed with pirate. I don't think

790
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 3: there's ever been a Halloween when one member of the

791
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,399
Speaker 3: extended family has not been a pirate for help.

792
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 2: I love this.

793
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, okay, already my costa book, oh, book signings.

794
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: You know, even before you said Halloween, I was like,

795
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: it's coming out in October, opportunity.

796
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 3: Yes, my husband teaches me that that, like the majority

797
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 3: of what I do is just excuses to buy new costumes. Yeah,

798
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 3: the picture is He's not wrong.

799
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 5: Uh you should have seen her at the Toilets book signings.

800
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 2: Where that was a whole different Okay, oh yeah, she

801
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 2: finish giant.

802
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 3: I have emoji hat. It's humongous, it's amazing. I just

803
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 3: like to set the tone from the beginning, like let

804
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 3: people know what is happening, you know, walk in looking

805
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 3: regular and then dramatically pull the poop hat out from

806
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 3: the podium and put it on and go, this is

807
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 3: we're talking about poop today. And you know, if parents

808
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 3: are going to get upset, I want them to leave early.

809
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 5: So they wouldn't have been Yeah.

810
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 3: I don't think they would have. But the kids always

811
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 3: absolutely freak out and love it, like the poop emoji dress.

812
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 3: But that felt like, I don't know, that felt like pushing.

813
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 4: It.

814
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 3: You should do it dress. It's not too late.

815
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, you don't want regrets, especially dress regrets.

816
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 4: I definitely definitely.

817
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: Well Okay, Pivoting from the book, what about the podcast,

818
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: is there anything any plans you have for the future

819
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: of it, anything you're excited about.

820
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 5: One of the things that has emerged from the podcast

821
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 5: over the years, which has been a surprise, but is

822
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 5: something that I'm really loving is that we're doing a

823
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 5: lot of podcast based women's history tours and just listeners

824
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 5: will sign up to come with us on you know,

825
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 5: one or two week adventures all over just visiting the

826
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 5: locations where we've recorded previous episodes, meet the guests that

827
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 5: have been on previous episodes, and I think we're just

828
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 5: gonna We're going to keep doing those because it's so

829
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 5: much fun and it's so the self selecting group, the

830
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 5: kind of people who sign up for a very nerdy

831
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 5: tours very yeah, like if we say, hey, would you

832
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 5: like to go to a place nobody's ever heard of?

833
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 5: To visit locations associated with historical women.

834
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 3: That nobody knows about.

835
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean this is zero bagging rights. This is

836
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 5: not your difficult tour.

837
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 3: And for the kind of.

838
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 5: People who say yes, sign me, yeah for that please,

839
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 5: it's been wonderful.

840
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 3: It's been so great. So they're doing the best in

841
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 3: the world. Yeah, Oh, it's so and just.

842
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 5: Sort of turns into instant travel families. It's and most

843
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 5: people sign up solo also, so it's I appreciate the

844
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 5: courageous leap that they take. You're like, I'm signing up

845
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 5: for this. This might be the worst thing ever. But

846
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 5: so far, I don't know how many we've done so far,

847
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 5: like ten, I haven't counted, maybe more. And every time

848
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 5: it's magic, every single time. And it's just strangers from

849
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 5: across the world who just come together for this grand

850
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 5: adventure in women's history.

851
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 3: And then stay friends. I mean that, like the WhatsApp

852
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 3: group from tours from three years ago are still going.

853
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 3: Like people are visiting each other independently, and and I'm

854
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 3: in the best history travel it's just bonding. Yeah, And

855
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 3: I think the best the reason, the best proof that

856
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 3: again people there's an appetite for this and that we're

857
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,320
Speaker 3: doing something right on them is that people keep coming back.

858
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 3: We have people who've come over and over. I think

859
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 3: one like six tours, yeah you got yeah, like three

860
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,280
Speaker 3: quarters We open a tour now and like three quarters

861
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 3: of it fills up with just people who've already been

862
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 3: on a tour. Here's here's the regulars, and then there's

863
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 3: three slots left for new people.

864
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:30,479
Speaker 2: So that a good travel partner like that, that says

865
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 2: a lot you can with someone and enjoy it enough

866
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 2: to go again.

867
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 3: So that's a test of a relationship.

868
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 2: So y'all are but head to Greece, right.

869
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 5: Yes, we're in April Savannah, in September, Boston and October.

870
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 3: I think next year we'll do Italy.

871
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 2: Are you're coming down to Savannah?

872
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 3: Yeah?

873
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:53,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, we need to meet up with y'all.

874
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 3: Are you in Savannah?

875
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 4: In Atlanta?

876
00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 3: Okay? You should? We definitely need. My husband's in Atlanta

877
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,399
Speaker 3: all the time. I need to just come and hang

878
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 3: out with you. Wait, you are? My husband is there

879
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 3: all the time, and I keep saying I gotta go along.

880
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 3: You need to go. But okay, so we're.

881
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,439
Speaker 2: Gonna put that down in our calendar Savannah all right? Yeah,

882
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 2: I said imaginary. Yes, I love that.

883
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 3: And these are like super boutique curated there's no travel

884
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 3: agents involved. This is Katie and her husband Mark, who

885
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 3: has been dubbed the Smoothness Operator, whose job is to

886
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 3: just keep everything running perfectly, smoothly, solve all the problems.

887
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 3: And these are trip servants. Super Yeah, these are super,

888
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 3: super individualized, unique, precisely organized. Yeah, this is not just

889
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 3: you know, oh yeah, we'll tag along on a pre

890
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 3: organized tour nope, what's her name? Tours?

891
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:55,879
Speaker 2: I love it.

892
00:49:56,040 --> 00:50:01,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, you might find us on your next door because.

893
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 2: Of that, yeah, man earlier.

894
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 5: But honestly, just the people, Yeah, the people who. It's

895
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 5: really about the people, and it's about the places we

896
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 5: go and that you get to meet the guests from

897
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 5: the episode and that's always so cool. We do a

898
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 5: lot of like book signing with the guests, and like

899
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 5: we'll do a lot of like we have this historic

900
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:24,879
Speaker 5: house to ourselves as we just got Caroline Herschel's house

901
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 5: and just you know, freak out and touch everything, and

902
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:29,320
Speaker 5: because the people.

903
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 3: Who run those places are so excited that someone's excited, right,

904
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 3: And we walk in and they're like, how do you

905
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 3: You know, they'll show some artifacts. So many times they're

906
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 3: like and here's the blah blah blah blah blah, and

907
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 3: you can see they're just running their spiel and the

908
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 3: whole group will go who you see them kind of

909
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:47,240
Speaker 3: recalibrate for a second.

910
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 5: Ago, oh, oh you actually, oh these people care care.

911
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 3: And then it's and suddenly it's a completely different tour

912
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 3: and they're you know, we get every exciting detail and

913
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 3: they're like, oh look at this, and no, let me

914
00:50:58,160 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 3: pull this out of storage and it's.

915
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 5: So Yeah, it's so fun. Yeah, they're so great, So

916
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 5: I think we'll keep doing that. Yeah, yeah, yes, that

917
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 5: sounds so lovely.

918
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 1: Also, just just thank you so much for we talk

919
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 1: about here on here all the time when people bring

920
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: up these stories that we didn't know about, and how

921
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 1: important it is, and how it's amazing that people are

922
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: still doing this work and sometimes they're kind of ignored

923
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: for a long time. But so thanks to you and

924
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: to all the researchers and academics who have come to

925
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: you and been like, no, actually I know a lot

926
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 1: about this and we should be talking about this person.

927
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 4: That's amazing exactly.

928
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 5: That's it. And at the opening of the book, we said,

929
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 5: a book like ours is only possible because literally hundreds,

930
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 5: if not thousands, of people are out there excavating these

931
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 5: stories all over the world. You know, everybody is working collectively,

932
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 5: and now after a decade of that, the fruits of

933
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 5: everyone's labor is so inspiring. It's just incredible how much

934
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 5: has been done just in the last ten years.

935
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 3: So amen, thank.

936
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:13,720
Speaker 5: You everybody who has been uncovering these stories all these years.

937
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 5: It's amazing what we found, even though we knew we

938
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 5: were going to find amazing stuff. It's yeah, surprising every

939
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 5: time everything that gets unearthed.

940
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and one story that keeps coming up that it's

941
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 3: now getting to the point where I just I have

942
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 3: to believe it is how many people have some version

943
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 3: of I was working on this other project and then

944
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 3: this dead woman tackled me in the library. This book

945
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 3: one was literally the book fell out of the shelf

946
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 3: as she was walking past, like this story just like

947
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 3: came out of nowhere, grabbed me, wouldn't let me go.

948
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 3: She insisted that I tell her story, you know, And

949
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 3: I think it feels like these women are going it

950
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 3: is now my turn and the time has come, we're

951
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 3: coming back, and they've you know, found found enough trained

952
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:12,839
Speaker 3: and willing people to tell those stories now, because it's

953
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 3: it's just it's so wild how often that exact story

954
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 3: comes up of I was working on this and then

955
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 3: completely derailed into this thing instead.

956
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:25,839
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, just.

957
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 3: Go pick up random books in the library, folks, and

958
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 3: start looking. Because feel the vibe as you walk down

959
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 3: the aisle. Is there someone here who wants to talk

960
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 3: to me?

961
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:38,359
Speaker 5: Oh?

962
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 3: I love that it's seance seance based Yeah, oh I

963
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 3: like that. I want that on a T shirt, say

964
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 3: on second em.

965
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 1: Well, thank you both so much for being here. This

966
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: has been a delight. Hopefully we can do this again,

967
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 1: maybe I.

968
00:53:58,120 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 3: R out.

969
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 1: Yep in September, yes, yeah, yes, Well until then, where

970
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 1: can the good listeners find you?

971
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 3: Uh? What's your name? Everywhere dot com?

972
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, we're on every podcast platform, and the books you

973
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 5: can get everywhere.

974
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 3: We have links on our website.

975
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,800
Speaker 5: Also, if you want to support indie bookshops on bookshop

976
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 5: dot org local indie bookshops, We've got all the books

977
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 5: on there.

978
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 3: We will also very soon have signed copies available on

979
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 3: our website if people want to buy signed copies directly

980
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 3: from us of the the Eighty Lost Women book, so

981
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 3: they can find those there too, And we'll even personalize

982
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 3: it for you if you tell us what you want.

983
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 3: And it's in a whole bunch of countries and a

984
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 3: whole bunch of languages. Our books have been published and

985
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 3: I think it's nine languages now, which is mind blowing.

986
00:54:55,320 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 5: Stinky history toilets is the most translated. Yeah, yes, Slovak, Vietnamese,

987
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 5: Pole delightful and poop is universal. That's the one truth.

988
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,800
Speaker 3: Everybody poops we know, but the idea that a small

989
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 3: child in Slovakia is going to be reading my book

990
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:18,800
Speaker 3: about poop blows my mind.

991
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:19,720
Speaker 2: Beautiful.

992
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 3: It's a beautiful world.

993
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:25,439
Speaker 4: It is well. Thank you both so much for being

994
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 4: here and for such a delightful conversation.

995
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you listeners. If you would like to

996
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 1: contact us, you can. You can email us at Hello

997
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:36,720
Speaker 1: at stuff Onenever Told You dot com. You can find

998
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: us on Blue Sky at mom Stuff podcast, or on

999
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 1: Instagram and TikTok at stuff I Never Told You or

1000
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:43,319
Speaker 1: ls on YouTube. You have a tea public store, and

1001
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: we have a book you can get where you get

1002
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: your books. Thanks as always to a super producer for

1003
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:49,959
Speaker 1: senior executive producer, my indercontributor Joey. Thank you and thanks

1004
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:51,840
Speaker 1: to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You distrection

1005
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 1: of my Heart Radio more podcast from my Heart Radio.

1006
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 1: You can check out the i Heeart Radio app, Apple podcast,

1007
00:55:55,560 --> 00:56:01,800
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.