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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Katie Lambert and I'm Sarah Dowdy and starting this

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Speaker 1: one on a bit of a personal note. When I

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Speaker 1: was a little kid, I really liked learning the stories

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Speaker 1: of Catholic saints, especially the female saints, and my favorite

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Speaker 1: was Tackla, who I chose as my my confirmation name.

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Speaker 1: They tried to kill her multiple times, but she simply

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Speaker 1: refused to die. But one story I had never heard

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Speaker 1: was that of a female pope that I would have

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Speaker 1: if I had grown up in the Middle Ages. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the story of this woman pope popped up near the

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Speaker 1: end of the thirteenth century, although her time of rule

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Speaker 1: was said to be much earlier, probably the eight hundreds.

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Speaker 1: She's supposed to be German born but English lineage, and

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Speaker 1: that sums up most of the details that we know

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Speaker 1: about her. And there are many many variations on this story,

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Speaker 1: but we're going to give you the basics. So when Joan,

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Speaker 1: who is also known as Agnes Gilberta and several other names,

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Speaker 1: was a young woman, she fell in love and the

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Speaker 1: man she loved was a scholar wanting to be with him,

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Speaker 1: she followed him to Athens, but she was a woman,

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Speaker 1: so she couldn't be in this rarefied atmosphere of learning

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Speaker 1: in this Benedictine monastery, And in a story worthy of Shakespeare,

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Speaker 1: she dressed herself as a man, moving up through the

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Speaker 1: ranks at this monastery because she was just so brilliant.

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Speaker 1: And eventually she reached Rome and the highest position of

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Speaker 1: all in the Roman Church, pope, and supposedly she was

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Speaker 1: pope for two years. And then this shocking scene happens

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Speaker 1: during a religious procession from St. Peter's Basilica. She gives

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Speaker 1: birth while on a horse. What is with the horse?

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Speaker 1: D I don't know. They keep popping up. So she's

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Speaker 1: a sinner, she's a liar, and the pope, which makes

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Speaker 1: it so much more embarrassing. She met her demise in

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Speaker 1: one of two ways. She was either sent to a

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Speaker 1: convent or the Romans dragged her behind the horse until

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Speaker 1: she died and stoned her. And perhaps that baby lived,

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Speaker 1: perhaps he did not, but if he did, he became

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Speaker 1: a bishop. So here's the basic story. Again, there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of variations on it. It's pretty crazy, isn't it. Well,

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Speaker 1: and whether you believe it or not, people during the

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Speaker 1: Middle Ages definitely did, and they were encouraged to believe

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Speaker 1: it by the church. This was considered a very good

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Speaker 1: example of why women needed to remain subordinate two men. Clearly,

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Speaker 1: she was unfit to be the head of the Roman Church.

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Speaker 1: She couldn't even get through a procession without the natural

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Speaker 1: realities of a one woman's body taking out a baby.

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Speaker 1: On silly women, they have no control. And soon these

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Speaker 1: rumors were everywhere about new popes having to be checked

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Speaker 1: for male genitalia by lower ranking clergy. So posedly this

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Speaker 1: this new papal candidate would sit on a special chair

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Speaker 1: with a hole cut in it, and a deacon or

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Speaker 1: cardinal would reach down and checked to make sure what

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Speaker 1: should be there was there. So we don't have any

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Speaker 1: real evidence that this ritual was real. Our our eyewitness

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Speaker 1: accounts aren't eyewitnesses at all. In the chair that really

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Speaker 1: was a chair which chasm was probably just used for

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Speaker 1: an elaborate ritual to enthrone the pope, not to check

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Speaker 1: him out. But the most important point here is that

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Speaker 1: people believe this, so regardless of what we know now,

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Speaker 1: people in the Middle Ages did believe all of this.

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Speaker 1: That's that's quite the Catholic ritual right there. Jokesters at

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Speaker 1: the time made the point that since so many of

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Speaker 1: the popes had children, it was probably pretty easy to

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Speaker 1: figure out which ones were guys and which ones, And

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Speaker 1: in the sixteenth century it was suggested that all popes

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Speaker 1: should have beards. That way you could be sure the

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Speaker 1: pope was an end to which I say, women with

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Speaker 1: a hormonal imbalance can have beards, or if they have hyperdricosis.

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Speaker 1: It's science. This is the health editor Katie coming through.

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Speaker 1: So also in the sixteenth century, the Reformation began, and

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Speaker 1: then the church position changes. It changes very dramatically because

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Speaker 1: the Protestants are starting to use Pope Joan as an

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Speaker 1: anti Catholic propaganda piece to point out that there's corruption

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Speaker 1: in the church, major corruption and problems with its hierarchy.

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Speaker 1: If something this dastard lya could happen, And so the

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Speaker 1: Catholic Church doesn't about face and claim that, oh, I

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Speaker 1: hope Joan never really existed at all. Guys, it's just

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Speaker 1: a story, perhaps a symbolic one to to teach people

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Speaker 1: their lessons. But you can't claim a story is true

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Speaker 1: just because it's popular. But how about now, now that

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Speaker 1: we've moved along from this, this strong belief is conviction

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Speaker 1: in the Middle Ages, and then are about face and

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Speaker 1: the Reformation. We are in it the year twenty ten.

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Speaker 1: So we have two sides, and we'll start with the first.

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Speaker 1: There was no Pope Joane. So the church position as

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Speaker 1: that as far as papal lineage goes, it's all been

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Speaker 1: men all the way back to St. Peter. She's nowhere

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Speaker 1: in the official papal history because there isn't a reason

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Speaker 1: for her to be there. She didn't exist. And they

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Speaker 1: make the point that of all people who would who

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Speaker 1: would know it would be the Church. They like, we

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Speaker 1: keep a pretty big library. Well exactly, they like having

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Speaker 1: their records, so if anybody knows, it's going to be dumb.

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Speaker 1: The other point denying her existence is that the Catholic

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Speaker 1: Church doesn't deny the existence of bad pope. So, oh,

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Speaker 1: John the twelfth, who is who's quite the center. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So they're essentially saying, if if we admit to popes

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Speaker 1: who murdered and tortured and fathered loads of illegitimate children,

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Speaker 1: don't you think we'd admit to a female pope. Another

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Speaker 1: strong point is that there isn't a single story about

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Speaker 1: her from her own century. It's not until four hundred

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Speaker 1: years later that any of these pop up. And doesn't

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Speaker 1: that strike you as a little bit odd? Yes, four

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Speaker 1: hundred years in suddenly a historical figure pops up in

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Speaker 1: the books. It's it's definitely strange and suspicious. And she

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Speaker 1: was supposedly pope between Leo the fourth and Benedict the third,

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Speaker 1: but according to church records, that would have made her

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Speaker 1: pope only for a few weeks, which seems a bit

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Speaker 1: ridiculous about how long the ceremony takes. Fancy investiture, and

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Speaker 1: another church position it was made up by the Protestants

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Speaker 1: after the Reformation because they hate the Catholic Church, And

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Speaker 1: this is definitely not true. We've already disproved this one.

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Speaker 1: The story was around long before the Reformation began. So

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Speaker 1: then we have our other side. There was too a

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Speaker 1: Pope Jones. So our first point, why are there all

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Speaker 1: of these stories about her? If she didn't exist, there

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Speaker 1: must be someone this was based on. It couldn't have

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Speaker 1: been made up just out of thin air. Or why

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Speaker 1: did the church encouraged belief in it for so long?

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Speaker 1: And everyone at the time accepted it. Surely that says something. Yeah, Katy,

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Speaker 1: I think you mentioned a writer who said, if there's smoke,

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Speaker 1: there's fire, and that's that's something to latch onto. But

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Speaker 1: another point is that there aren't any other stories about

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Speaker 1: her from her own time because the Church erased them

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Speaker 1: in the seventeenth century when the Protestants started using her

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Speaker 1: as anti Catholic propaganda um. And in the fifteenth century

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Speaker 1: there was a bust of her, supposedly in the Siena Cathedral.

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Speaker 1: The face was later changed to make it into someone else,

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Speaker 1: So why would the church do that unless they were

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Speaker 1: perhaps trying to hide her existence. Also in the fifteenth century,

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Speaker 1: a heretic said in his trial, many times have the

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Speaker 1: popes fallen into sin and error? For instance, when Joan

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Speaker 1: was elected pope who was a woman, not a single

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Speaker 1: person present contradicted him and it was all clergy. So

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Speaker 1: I have to admit that's a strong point in their favor.

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Speaker 1: And going back to the lack of in for nation

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Speaker 1: about her, there aren't really not many records from her

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Speaker 1: time anyways. The ninth century is not known for detailed

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Speaker 1: record keeping, and we barely even have any information about

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Speaker 1: any of the popes, So we can't say that in

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Speaker 1: that little bit of time between Leo the fourth and

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Speaker 1: Benedict to the third, there's conclusive evidence that she didn't

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Speaker 1: exist or didn't reign between them, right or since there

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Speaker 1: were bad records, who even knows if that was a

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Speaker 1: few weeks. It could have been the two years and

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Speaker 1: something that everyone's been saying in the first place. And

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Speaker 1: you know, is it so implausible that a woman could

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Speaker 1: disguise herself as a man and do a man's job.

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Speaker 1: Maybe not the birth of the horse, Maybe not that part.

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Speaker 1: So we've got our two sides, are point and our counterpoint.

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Speaker 1: I do have to say I don't think there was

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Speaker 1: a Pope joan Um, but there's another way you could

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Speaker 1: interpret it. Perhaps there have been other female figures in

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Speaker 1: the church whose stories were entangled with hers. Pope Joan

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Speaker 1: is said to be on the High Priest Discard and

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Speaker 1: some tarot decks, but it may actually be a woman

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Speaker 1: named Guglielma who's also known as the Heretic Saint, and

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Speaker 1: she's not really a saint, but she's a thirteenth century

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Speaker 1: religious woman who did inspire a saint cult devoted to her,

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Speaker 1: which is something that still happens today. I learned recently

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Speaker 1: the Narco so some of her followers are later burned

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Speaker 1: at the stake, and according to an article from Church

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Speaker 1: history by Mona Alice Gene Newman, inquisitors tour apart her tomb,

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Speaker 1: burned her bones and scattered her ashes, and of course

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Speaker 1: erased every document that had to do with her life.

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Speaker 1: So she's she's a person of interest at least. And

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Speaker 1: there are certainly women who have exerted considerable influence over

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Speaker 1: popes too much for the liking of many, and other

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Speaker 1: women who have inspired great devotion. And perhaps there wasn't

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Speaker 1: a pope Jane, but there was a woman who was

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Speaker 1: high ranking in the church and that story turned into

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Speaker 1: something else. So what relevance does that have for us today?

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Speaker 1: Of course, the role of women in the church is

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Speaker 1: still complicated. Yeah, the church today maintains that women are

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Speaker 1: of equal value as men, but they're very different and

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Speaker 1: therefore they're suited to different roles. And by encouraging women

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Speaker 1: to fulfill the role that nature and God has intended

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Speaker 1: for them, which is motherhood, they're honoring woman's unique gifts.

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Speaker 1: And that's why women can't be ordained priests much less

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Speaker 1: be pope. Right, and I'm sure you're all familiar with

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Speaker 1: a critics response to that if you've opened in your

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Speaker 1: favorite open a newspaper. And it's not our place to

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Speaker 1: voice any opinion on the matter, but I think we

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Speaker 1: can confidently say that a female pope today would not

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Speaker 1: have to give birth on a horse, and also that

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Speaker 1: Pope Joan might make a really good Halloween costume, if

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Speaker 1: you don't mind explaining who you are all night. Yes,

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Speaker 1: speak of Halloween costumes, We've gotten some responses after our

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Speaker 1: Egyptian episodes. A few people want to be a Mama

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Speaker 1: Luke for Halloween, which I think sounds like a great costume,

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Speaker 1: especially if you get that jeweled sword. I'm tentatively planning

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Speaker 1: on being a Cannibal queen, but that has absolutely nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with any History episode we've ever done. Unless

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Speaker 1: I can historical respend us your your recommendation, Cannibal Queen.

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Speaker 1: It is interesting that this story has lasted for so long.

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Speaker 1: We've gotten so many emails requesting the Pope Jones story,

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Speaker 1: and I'd like to hear about why you think it's endured,

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Speaker 1: So email us at History Podcast at how Stuff Works

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Speaker 1: dot com and let us know your opinions. And if

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Speaker 1: you have another favorite antipope you'd like us to talk

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Speaker 1: about again, send us an email. And speaking of email,

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Speaker 1: we have some listener emails for today, So our email

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Speaker 1: today it's from Virginia. And we were actually fortunate enough

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Speaker 1: to do an a view with Virginia just the other day.

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Speaker 1: She hosts Inside the Podcasting Studio as well as Tutor Talk,

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Speaker 1: and we like her. We talked to her about what

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Speaker 1: it's like recording this podcast, but she also emailed us

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Speaker 1: regarding our five Stars of the wild West and our

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Speaker 1: question about what exactly bulldogging was and what the modern

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Speaker 1: incarnation of it. It has nothing to do with U.

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Speaker 1: D A. In case my fellow bulldogs were confused, we

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Speaker 1: were just growing in some school spirit there. So Virginia

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Speaker 1: wrote us, as a Texan who has attended many a rodeo,

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Speaker 1: I believe I can answer your question about the modern

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Speaker 1: incarnation of bulldogging. The one that is probably most like

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Speaker 1: it now is called steer wrestling. A cowboy starts on

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Speaker 1: a horse in the starting box. The steer is also

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Speaker 1: in the starting box right next to him. When the

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Speaker 1: steers released, the cowboy must essentially chase it, jump off

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Speaker 1: the horse, and wrestle the stair to the ground. In

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Speaker 1: order for the clock to stop, the steer has to

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Speaker 1: fall over at least on its side, if not on

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Speaker 1: its back. The cowboy with the best time wins. If

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Speaker 1: the cowboy breaks the barrier quote of the starting box,

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Speaker 1: essentially the same as jumping the gun and racing, he

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Speaker 1: gets a ten second penalty. And she described a few

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Speaker 1: other similar forms of steer wrestling, which gave me the

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Speaker 1: strong desire to attend a rodeo. See I decided I

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Speaker 1: was not meant to be a rodeo queen or a

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Speaker 1: rodeo attendee, but I think you can go to one

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Speaker 1: maybe in Katasaw. I remember seeing ads. I did not

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Speaker 1: want to attend bull fighting now after this Spanish incident

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Speaker 1: where the bull broke up into the stands and trampled

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Speaker 1: a bunch of people. So um, I don't know, Maybe

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Speaker 1: I'll change my mind if I if I watched that

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Speaker 1: Spanish video. We'll talk about it later. So thank you

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Speaker 1: Virginia for talking with us and for sending us your

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Speaker 1: rodeo tips and if you have cool stuff to send

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Speaker 1: us again. Our email is History Podcast at how stuff

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Speaker 1: works dot com. We also have a Facebook fan page.

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Speaker 1: You can catch up with what we're doing, and it's

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Speaker 1: cool way for us to respond to you more quickly

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Speaker 1: than we can an email. And as far as that goes,

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Speaker 1: Brian with a y, I'm sorry I spelled your name

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Speaker 1: with an eye. Our commenters are who very involved this week.

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Speaker 1: We also have a Twitter feed at missed in History,

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Speaker 1: and again it's a good way to keep up with

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Speaker 1: what we're doing on a daily basis. I you know,

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Speaker 1: can send out a survey on who wants to date

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Speaker 1: a dragon lord and and give birth to eggs and yes,

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Speaker 1: and that might have given you a clue. We were

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Speaker 1: talking about the Chunk sisters. So we're gonna try to

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Speaker 1: find a way here to wrap up dragon lords and

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Speaker 1: tie them back into poet. I think you can do it.

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Speaker 1: My connection is Pope Joan the Dark Ages. We have

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Speaker 1: female pope. Maybe we have night and we have nights

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Speaker 1: to fight dragons owen saints. You are nights might dragon saint. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is getting really good. So if you want to

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Speaker 1: learn more about popes at least, you can check out

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Speaker 1: our article how the papes He works By searching on

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Speaker 1: the home page. It's www dot how stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit

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Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com and be sure to check

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Speaker 1: out the stuff you missed in history class flogged own

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Speaker 1: the how stuff works dot com one page