1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History class Works dot Com. Hello, 2 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Frying and I'm 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: Tracy V. Wilson, and today we're going to touch on 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: history that's a little more modern than what we usually 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: cover on the podcast, and that is the Cold War 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: between the US and the uss are I recently was 7 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: lucky enough to get to chat with author David E. Hoffman, who, 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: as you will hear in the course of this interview, 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: is really an expert on that conflict and its roots. Mr. 10 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: Hoffman has been a journalist for three decades, and he 11 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: was covering politics during the Reagan presidency, including working as 12 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: a White House correspondent during the U S. Soviet summits 13 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: at that time. He served as the Moscow bureaut for 14 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: The Washington Post from until two thousand and one, and 15 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: then is the Foreign editor and Assistant Managing editor for 16 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: Foreign News. He continues his journalism career and he's written 17 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: several books as well about Russian and Soviet politics, including 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: the Pulitzer Prize winning The Dead Hand, which details the 19 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: end of the Cold War. Mr Hoffman's most recent book, 20 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: The Billion Dollar Spy, is some exceptionally thrilling nonfiction. So 21 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: without further ado, here is Holly's interview with David E. Hoffman, 22 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: where they're going to talk about the subject of the 23 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: book and the nature of the Cold War. So, as 24 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: I said, today, we are lucky enough to be talking 25 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: to David E. Hoffman, the author of The Billion Dollar Spy, 26 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: among other fabulous books, and we're gonna be talking about 27 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 1: the Cold War and some spy techniques in a little 28 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: story that unfurls in the midst of them. So first, 29 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: I have to say, the Cold War is one of 30 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: those things that many people, even people like me that 31 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: are old enough to have remembered that period of time, 32 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: sort of have a little bit of a nebulous knowledge about, 33 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: in large part because so many of the mock nations 34 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: that were happening were covert, and there's also been kind 35 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: of them the water ring down of what we know 36 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: through fictionalized media that portrays it in ways that are 37 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: not accurate. So I'm curious what you think are some 38 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: of the biggest misconceptions people have about Cold War espionage. 39 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: The Cold War was this giant, four decade confrontation between 40 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: two blocks of countries each had their own ideology. Uh 41 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: the West stood for individual liberties and freedom and democracy, 42 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: and the Soviet Union with communism, promised on the kind 43 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: of utopia someday. It never really materialized. But in this conflict, 44 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: which was carried out in propaganda and diplomacy, it was 45 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: also carried out by building these huge and very frightening 46 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons, the missiles launched at each other. But there 47 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: was also a shadow war, a war in dark alleys, 48 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: and that was the war of intelligence. And one of 49 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,239 Speaker 1: the misconceptions is that it was always carried out with 50 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: covert action. We like to think about covert action because 51 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: we see and read about it. The Bay of Pigs 52 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: was a real covert action. American and other spymasters sent 53 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: spies behind the lines into the Soviet Union, parachuting them in. 54 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: That was actually trying to do something to change the 55 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: course of history. But there was another side of it 56 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: where this war was intense for four decades, and that 57 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: side of it was espionage. Espionage and covert action are 58 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: two different things. Espionage is quite simply stealing the secrets 59 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: of your adversary. It's very important to know what your 60 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: adversary is thinking. Both sides carried out intense espionage against 61 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: each other for more than four decades, And in writing 62 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: this book, I was peering into this particular world, not 63 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: of covert action, not of people carrying guns and starting 64 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: wars or carrying out assassinations, but just silently in the shadows, 65 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: trying to slip away and steal the secrets of the 66 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: Soviet Union. And your new book actually centers, as you said, 67 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: around primarily the work of Adolph Tolkachov, who became an 68 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: agent for the CIA after he made contact in a 69 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: rather interesting way. Well, you talk a little bit about 70 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: his method of reaching out and his difficulty establishing a 71 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: relationship even after he had initially made real contact. The 72 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: Soviet Union was a giant prison, a closed society. The KGB, 73 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: which did the spying abroad, also did it at home. 74 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: In other words, it was the secret police. And one 75 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: way that the Soviet Union tried to protect itself was 76 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: to reject contact with foreigners, and that KGB had teams 77 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: of people rolling the streets trying to spot any foreigners. 78 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: And the foreigners who lived and worked in Moscow, including 79 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: the Americans, found that KGB followed them everywhere, even when 80 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: they took their dog out for a walk KGB man 81 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: was following them. So this was a very difficult environment 82 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: for the CIA to try and find and recruit spies, 83 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: and in fact they had very very few. And one 84 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: of the reasons that they were so reluctant, he might 85 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: even say a little bit scared, was that any Russian 86 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: they might approach and even strike up a conversation with, 87 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: that person could get into a lot of trouble and 88 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: may be accused of treason and executed. So it was 89 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: immensely dangerous. And when people did approach the CIA and 90 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: say I'd like to help you or give you some information, 91 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: it was often assumed they were a trap. They were 92 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: called a dangle and all there was somebody that the 93 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: KGB like bait was putting out there to try and 94 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: grab the CIA. So when this man ate off, Tolkachov 95 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: first approached an American filling up his car at a 96 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: gas station in Moscow, and he came up to the 97 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: man and said, I'd like to talk to you. The 98 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: man said, well, it'd be difficult to talk right here, 99 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: and then Polkachov gave him a note and disappeared. What 100 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: Tolkachov didn't know is the man he had picked out 101 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: to approach at the gas station. Actually was the head 102 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: of the CIA in Moscow in the Moscow station, So 103 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: Tolkachov essentially volunteered that first time. But the CIA was 104 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: afraid to talk to him because they thought he could 105 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: be a KGB trap. And Tokajo didn't give up. He 106 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: was a very determined individual, had his own ideals of 107 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: what the world should be like, was very disenchanted with 108 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, wanted to change things, and he essentially 109 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: was out there the story the Soviet Union as best 110 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: he could by leaking their military secrets. And he tried 111 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: again in February. The first approach was January. He tried 112 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: again in February. He tried again, and he tried several times, 113 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: but headquarters of the CIA in Langley, Virginia said to 114 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: the Moscow station, he probably a trap. Don't respond, don't 115 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: take him up on his offer. So here you have 116 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: a guy who was sincerely trying to offer very sensitive 117 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: information to the CIA and they weren't taking it. And 118 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: he was not by any means to train spy. Right. 119 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: He was an engineer. No, It's what made him different 120 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: than a lot of the others. If you look at 121 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: the list of Cold War spies that came from the 122 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: Soviet Block, almost all of them were either in the 123 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,239 Speaker 1: k g B or in the military intelligence, or somehow 124 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:15,119 Speaker 1: associated with diplomacy or the security services. Tolkachov he worked 125 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: in a laboratory that built radars for Soviet warplanes, but 126 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: he was an engineer, and he was never trained at espionage, 127 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: but he did a lot of it. And while his 128 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: entry into the world of the spy game came in 129 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: the late nineteen seventies, the event that led him to 130 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: that point where he felt so compelled to reach out 131 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: and try to make contact really started decades earlier with 132 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: his wife's family. Can you talk a little bit about 133 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: his wife's childhood and how the events that happened then 134 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: co mingled with events happening in the seventies to sort 135 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: of drive Tolkachev to this moment in his life. Yes, 136 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: Tolkachov was fourteen years old, uh fourteen year old boy 137 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: growing up in Moscow when World War Two broke out, 138 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: and a month after Germany invaded the Soviet Union, German 139 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: planes bombed the Moscow. Moscow was a city at the 140 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: time built of timber and a lot of wood, and 141 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: the Germans dropped incendiary bombs and the planes got all 142 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: the way through to Moscow. Because the Soviet Union had 143 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: very primitive radar. Radar was invented in the thirties, the 144 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: Soviet Union was way behind, so they couldn't spot the bombers, 145 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: and Tolkachov and all people of his generation ran for 146 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: cover in the Moscow metro stations to hide from the bombers. 147 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: So in response to that, the Soviet authorities realized they 148 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: needed to train young people to study radar to build 149 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: better radar, and he got sucked up into this, but 150 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: he was sent to essentially the equivalent of a vocational 151 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: high school to study radar. He was then sent to 152 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 1: the equivalent of a university to study radar. All the 153 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: years of World War Two, and for several years afterwards 154 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: he's studying, and finally after the war he was sent 155 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: to a top secret institute in Moscow, only twenty minutes 156 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: from where he lived, and said, here's your first job. 157 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: You're gonna build radar. And at that instant he met 158 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: uh young woman named Natasha. She was eight years younger. Um, 159 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: it was the fifties, it was an optimistic time. They 160 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: fell in love and They got married in nineteen fifty seven. 161 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: They got married the year of Sputnik. They thought things 162 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: would get better in the Soviet Union. They thought that 163 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: the war and everything was behind them. Well, Natasha had 164 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: grown up an orphan. Why was she an orphan? Her 165 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: mother and her father were purged by Stalin. Her mother 166 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: was accused of being a subversive and was executed. Her 167 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: father sent to the Gulag for a decade. And when 168 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 1: her father came out of the Gulag after the war, 169 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: he lived only a year or two, told her what 170 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: had happened and died. So she was very, very torn 171 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 1: up about the legacy of Stalin and Tolkachov. When he 172 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: married her, he had the same feelings. They were quietly 173 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: working in the system. Natasha worked at the same institute, 174 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: she worked in the intended department, and yet at night 175 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: at home that they were just full of resentment at 176 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: what had happened to her family. They thought things would 177 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: get better in the fifties during the period called the Thaw, 178 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: and they were optimistic, But by the sixties that optimism 179 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,119 Speaker 1: was passing away because the Thaw hopes were never realized. 180 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,719 Speaker 1: There was a little bit of loosening up especially in 181 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: the arts. But the invasion of Czechoslovakia, the crushing of 182 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: the product spring, really put an end to it. Now, 183 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: Natasha and Adi as he was called, that was his nickname, 184 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: Audi had a son in so in the late sixties. 185 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: Even though Tokachov was very disenchanted, he didn't do much 186 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: about it. But by the early seventies things had really 187 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: gone bad in the Soviet Union. It was the period 188 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: known as stagnation. There were breadlines, you couldn't even buy 189 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,839 Speaker 1: a pair of jeans, and Tokachov said, I've got to 190 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: do something. I've got to do something. And it was 191 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 1: all because of his resentment about the past, about what 192 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: had happened in Natacha. And you know, she was two 193 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: years old when her parents were taken from her. She 194 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: grew up an orphan, and this bitterness drove him to 195 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: do something. By the way, a millions of families and 196 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: the people in the Silviet Union were affected by those 197 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 1: purges in n seven and think thirty eight, and a 198 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: lot of them didn't do anything about it. Tookchov acted 199 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: and his story is really fascinating for a number of reasons. 200 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: Um one thing that struck me is that he is 201 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 1: so deeply disillusioned with his country that it seems like 202 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: the risk involved in what he was doing. I don't 203 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: know that I would say it didn't really bother him, 204 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 1: but it was negligible compared to what he wanted to do. 205 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: I have a couple of thoughts about that. The first 206 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: is Tokachov himself, because of what had happened in Natasha 207 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: orphaned to two years old by Stalin all that messerby. 208 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: He did not want to put his family through that. 209 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: He had a young son, and so he waited almost 210 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: ten years as he stewed over this because he knew 211 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: that if he did something against the authorities, if he 212 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,839 Speaker 1: did something publicly, he could easily be arrested, and he 213 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: didn't want to put them through that that occurred to him. 214 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: He thought about that hard. Also, he thought maybe I 215 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: could do something simple like handout pamphlets on the street. 216 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: He described himself as somebody who sort of had the 217 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 1: heart of a dissident, And he thought about that for 218 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: ten minutes and realized, if I started handing out pamphlets 219 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: on the street, They're gonna arrest me and I'm gonna 220 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: be imprisoned. So he had and he found himself driven 221 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: to take him bigger risks, and in many ways it 222 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: was because he wanted to do more damage than just pamphlets. Now, 223 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: the bigger risks the spying were from the beginning a 224 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: huge risk to himself, to his family, and to the 225 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: CIA case officers he met with. Espionage was an order 226 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: of magnitude more risky than handing out pamphlets, and he 227 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: knew that. He told the CIA, everything we do is dangerous. 228 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: So from the beginning he knew he was entering a 229 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 1: different world, uh life threatening world. He was exceedingly determined 230 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: two carry this out. He proposed to the CIA when 231 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: they first started talking to him, a plan that would 232 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: go over twelve years and seven stages. He had an 233 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: all workout. He was an engineer. He gave them drawings 234 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: of his apartment. He told them exactly you know how 235 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: his office looked down to the dimensions of his desk. 236 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: He was very precise. So this guy entered the world 237 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: of danger and risked himself knowingly and with the goal 238 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: that he described to the CIA as doing the maximum 239 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: damage to the Soviet unions in the shortest possible time. 240 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,719 Speaker 1: Next up, we will hear about some of the surprising 241 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: ways that Tolkachov got information from his engineering job to 242 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: the c I A and I kind of love that 243 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: what really did the most damage would in terms of 244 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: his behaviors and how he procured information is what would 245 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: really be considered low tech today, but even then was 246 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: a little bit low tech. He would take these documents 247 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: from his offices, walk home for lunch, take pictures of 248 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: all of them, pack them back up, go back to 249 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: the office, and refile everything. Um, and I have to wonder. 250 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: I know you mentioned in the book that there was 251 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: part of the reason he was doing this was that 252 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: there wasn't that much security around sort of people looking 253 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: at and pulling these documents. But can you speak a 254 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: little bit about the level of danger he was putting 255 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: himself in just in doing this, in walking out with 256 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: top secret documents and carrying them on the street home 257 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: and then back. You know, this was all his idea. 258 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: He told the CIA a couple of months after they 259 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: started working together, there's this big security gap in my office, 260 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: which is I worked with all this secret stuff. But 261 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: if I put it into my overcoat and walk home, 262 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: it was a twenty minute walk to his apartment. Nobody 263 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: will stop me on the way out, and if I 264 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: bring them files back and put them back by five o'clock, 265 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: they won't know they've been missing. So he did that, 266 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: especially at the beginning of the operation when there was 267 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: somewhat lack of security and the CIA's problem was there 268 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: were no xerox machines. Then xerox machines in the Soviet 269 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: Union were locked up. Like I said, the country was 270 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: a prison, and uh Tonkenchov couldn't go to Tinko's or 271 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: fed X and make copies. So how to make copies 272 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: and to see I struggled with this in terms of 273 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: coming up with a proper camera, and there were several 274 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: spy cameras involved with the story. But the point of 275 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: your question is what worked. And one of the things 276 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: that worked here was that they decided to give him 277 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: a Pentax m E thirty five millimeter film camera, the 278 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: kind of camera you'd find around the neck of any 279 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: tourist anywhere in the world, a very and they gave 280 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: him a clamp which he could hold it steady and 281 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: clamped to the back of a kitchen chair. And so, 282 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: using this very simple method of a standard thirty five 283 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: millimeter camera, Tokechov, walked the documents in this coat out 284 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: of the office at lunch twenty minutes home. Nobody was home, 285 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: his wife was at work, his son was at school, 286 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: laid the documents out on the table, photographed him with 287 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: this thirty five millimeter camera stowed all the camera gear, 288 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: walked back to his office, and nobody was the wiser 289 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: for a long time. For thousands and thousands of pages 290 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: of documents, and the c I was clever because they 291 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: didn't want Kodak film laying around in Tolkachov's house. That 292 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: would be a giveaway. There wasn't any Kodak film in 293 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, but they wanted him to have a 294 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: high quality film. So they got very high quality American 295 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: film and they secretly wounded into Soviet cassettes and put 296 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: it in Soviet boxes. So if any money solid it 297 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: would look like he just had a tourist camera out 298 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: on this table. But he was doing this day after day, 299 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: not very high tech, but exploiting the whole insecurity in 300 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: this building, and it worked incredibly effectively. I mean, he 301 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: got blueprints, documents, plans, He revealed a decade out of 302 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: planning that the Soviets were doing for the future, as 303 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 1: well as details on their existing technologies. And he knew 304 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: he was sharing important information. But I wonder if he 305 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: realized just how important and how long reaching his work 306 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: was going to be. Do you think he really grasped 307 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: the gravity of like how much he was really helping 308 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: the United States In terms of the time it would 309 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: take it. He thought it would take more than a decade, 310 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: and he had all these stages, and so it turned 311 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: out that he fulfilled that goal years before he thought 312 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: he would. My year three of doing this, he had 313 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: pretty much given the c I every thing he said 314 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: was going to take him for twelve years. At the 315 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: same time, he knew very well how significant it was, 316 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, his hands every day. His whole 317 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: life from when he was fourteen years old was wrapped 318 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: up in this issue of radar. Radar is extremely important, 319 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: especially in the kind of war that the Cold War was, 320 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: where two sides are faced off against each other on 321 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: hair trigger alert, and it's very important to get early 322 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: warning if you're to be attacked, and that's what radar does. 323 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: And in the air and dog fights and air to 324 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: air combat, and radar can make the whole difference between 325 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: life and death, and he had devoted his whole life 326 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: to that, So he had a lot of knowledge. And 327 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union had the largest land borders in the world, 328 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: and they had to defend those landboards. We were lucky 329 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: we were between two oceans and a continent away, but 330 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 1: they had Europe on their doorstep, and the Cold War 331 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: lines ran right through the heart of Europe. So for 332 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union defending itself against a powerful NATO, and 333 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: how for American threat and there was a that this 334 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:07,239 Speaker 1: was a military confrontation. We had bombers that we were 335 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: planning to fly under their radar. And in the years 336 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: Tolkachov work, we were building something called the strategic cruise missile. 337 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: Now we're all very familiar with the cruise missile, but 338 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 1: it was the top secret thing back then, and when 339 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: eventually was invented, its goal was to fly under the 340 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: Soviet land based radars. Well, if you were investing billions 341 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 1: of dollars in that strategic cruise missile which could hug 342 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: the terrain and fly under the radar, would you want 343 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: to know what the radar capabilities were. Well, when Polkachov 344 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: told us that they had this gap, which is the 345 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: gap was at low altitudes. Their radars didn't work under 346 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: nine feet. Well, that helped us build a very threatening 347 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: cruise missile that the Kremlin worried could fly right under 348 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: the radars and land in red square. And you know what, 349 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: a couple of years later, a nineteen year old boy 350 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: from Germany flew Assessina right through those radars and landed 351 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: in red where mm hmm. And you mentioned, you know 352 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: that he had really shown us this gap, and the 353 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: money that he saved the US on weapons R and 354 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: D by revealing these sort of gaps really saved the 355 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: US quite a bit of bacon and ended up kind 356 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: of being the reason that your book is named what 357 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: it is over and over again took off broadest information 358 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: about Soviet air defenses. And to most people, this thing 359 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: air defenses, what does that mean? You know, it seems 360 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: sort of vague, and so what this is in nuclear missiles, 361 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: it sounds something very distant. But actually it was one 362 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: of the most hard fought issues of the Cold War, 363 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: which was how could our airplanes and bombers sneak in 364 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: or our cruise missiles sneak in, or how could they 365 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: be prevented from sneaking in, and we had a long 366 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: period of confusion and uncertainty about whether the Soviets had 367 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: strong radars or not and how they work well. Along 368 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: comes Tolkachov, and for several years he starts providing blueprints, 369 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: top secret documents, all the information we needed to evaluate 370 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: these radars. On the other side, those that will be 371 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: flying in warplanes we might face in a you know, 372 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: and a dog fight, and those on the ground that 373 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: might be there to prevent our bombers from getting through. 374 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 1: At one point, Tolkachov even provided the CIA circuit boards 375 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: taken from Soviet radar so we could study the metallurgy 376 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: and the transistors, everything, and so by essentially neutering Soviet 377 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: air defenses, he saved the United States from research that 378 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: we didn't need, from weapons that we didn't need, and 379 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: the Air Force at one point estimated in response to 380 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: our request from the CIA, the Tolkachov had saved two 381 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: billion dollars in research and development that wasn't necessary. And 382 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: that estimate was even before he gave them another six 383 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: or seven thousand pages of top secret documents. So knowing 384 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: what your adversaries doing, having a spy reading the mail 385 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: and looking at the blueprints was of a measurable value, 386 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: and it didn't happen very often in the Cold War 387 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: when I am engineer, probably benefits that really couldn't be 388 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: quantified in terms of like R and D monetary numbers. 389 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: I mean, the whole idea that he had saved US 390 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: two billion dollars is why I titled the book The 391 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: Billion dollars Spy, because these were real savings. There was 392 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: one radar effort that was being made by the Army 393 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: and Navy to come up with some kind of radar, 394 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: and when they saw the information from Polkachov, they completely 395 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 1: reversed course and built something they will be more effective. Right, 396 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: So they saved seventy million dollars just from one thing 397 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: in the in the thousands of pages of documents, that's 398 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: how valuable it was. Other parts of it, you know, 399 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: that didn't go, say to the White House in a 400 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: blue border document. This wasn't the kind of intelligence for politicians. 401 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: It was the intelligence we used to build our own weapons. 402 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: And some of it went right into the top secret 403 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: programs for the stealth bomber, for the cruise missile, for 404 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: the F fifteen, and the things that we were building, 405 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: because the Cold War until the end was a giant 406 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: military confrontation, and we were constantly seeking an advantage in 407 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: that military confrontation. So one of the things I discovered 408 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: here is that Tolkachovs intelligence that the positive intelligence is. 409 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 1: The CIA calls it the stuff, the secrets that he 410 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: actually stole. Some of it went right smack into our 411 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 1: top secret military programs, the black programs, the skunk works, 412 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: the places where we were trying to build radars to 413 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 1: read the mail of the Soviet radars. And I want 414 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: to turn down to another one of the major players 415 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: in this narrative, Edward Lee Howard. Can you talk a 416 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: little bit about how his story plays out and how 417 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: he goes from being UH an agent of the CIA 418 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: to an enemy of the US. Edward Lee Howard was 419 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: UH young man grown up in New Mexico, and he 420 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: had done a couple of things, work in the Peace Corps, 421 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: got a master's degree in business from American University, and 422 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: he kind of had a couple of middle management jobs, 423 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 1: one in Chicago. But he was bored and he wanted 424 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: something better with his life, and he rode away to 425 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: see I and he approached CIA at a time when 426 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: they were trying to find best in the brightest people 427 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: that had some economic good stance, not only spies that 428 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: were just you know, daring do but people who could 429 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: think on their feet. And he got accepted. So Howard 430 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: went into the career training program of the CIA and 431 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: he went through a year standard year of training, which 432 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: is tradecraft everything, the whole training thing. And he was 433 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: hoping for kind of a good comfy spying job like 434 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: in Switzerland. But because of several people moving around, he 435 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 1: got sent and assigned to Moscow, and he said, well, 436 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: it will be good for my career. He accepted the assignment. 437 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: Um he was married and it had just had a 438 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: young son, so his whole family got that special passports 439 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: for their diplomatic cover in Moscow. He was going to 440 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 1: become the CIA's handler of Tolkachov and he was trained 441 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: in all the special tradecraft for working in Moscow, how 442 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: to evade detection, how to you know, get away from 443 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: the KGB. And he was just on the verge of 444 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: going literally within weeks. And this will be his first 445 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: assignment abroad for the CIA. Although as I mentioned, he 446 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: had worked in the Peace Corps, but in Latin America, 447 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: he never really worked in the Soviet Union like this, 448 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: And there's a routine process. When you're about ready to 449 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: go abroad for the CIA, you get a lie detector test. Well, 450 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: Howard flunked his lie detector test on some question about 451 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: whether there was a crime somewhere in his past, and 452 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: the c I said, take it again. He flunked it again. 453 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: He flunked it four times. And when that happened, even 454 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: though he had gotten his special passports and you know, 455 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 1: diplomatic cassports and was not ready to move to Moscow 456 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: to see, I said, we cannot send to Moscow to 457 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: handle our most valuable spy, a young man who's flunked 458 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: live detective tests four times. So Howard was fired from 459 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: the CIA. He was fired sort of unceremoniously, um, you know, 460 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 1: to see. I kind of hoped he would find his way. 461 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: He was young enough that he find another career, and 462 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: for a while he moved back to New Mexico. He 463 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: got a job in the state legislature. There. He seemed 464 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: to be recovering a little bit from the shock of 465 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: being fired, but actually he was deeply resentful. He was 466 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: really angry what had happened to him. He felt they 467 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: had never given him a chance, and he decided to 468 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: get back at the CIA by betraying there most valuable ASTs. 469 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: Right back up with Mr. Telling us about howard decision 470 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: turn on the United States. Howard, not too long after, 471 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: for he had settled in New Mexico, decided he was 472 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 1: going to get his revenge, and he at one point 473 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: walked into the Soviet consulate in Washington and said, you know, 474 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: my name is Alex and I have something for you, 475 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: and he showed xerox of his old CIA building paths. 476 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: And a little while after that somebody with a Russian 477 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: accent called his house and said, more interested in the 478 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: manuscript you have to sell. And pretty soon all this 479 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: coded language begins, and Howard begins to deal with the 480 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: Soviets and the KGB. Um he meets them in Europe, 481 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: he meets met them once in um Vienna. And you know, 482 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: tolkach Off at this point is five or six five 483 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 1: years into espionage for for the United States. Twenty one 484 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: meetings were held with tolkach Off on the streets of Moscow, 485 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: almost all of them within three miles of the front 486 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: door of KGB headquarters. They were not detected in any 487 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: of those twenty one meetings. But the KGB got winto 488 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: this because how told them, And uh, I don't want 489 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: to give away much more of the story in terms 490 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: of how it plays out, because it's so sort of 491 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: beautifully orchestrated in the book that I want people to 492 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: definitely experience that for themselves. But what I do want 493 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,959 Speaker 1: to ask you about you managed to convince the CIA 494 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: to declassify a lot of the source material that you used. 495 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: How did you manage that? You know? I begged, cajoled, implored, lobbied, 496 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: I tried to work a lot of different angles. Um. 497 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: I went to the CIA and said, look, you know, 498 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: I'm a writer. I want to work as an outsider 499 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: as a journalist. UM, I need the information. Please declassify 500 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: the files. And it took a long time. It took 501 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: a couple of years, and in the end, what they 502 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: gave me was put through their own declassification process, so 503 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: they didn't give me anything that was secret. They gave 504 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: me declassified files which had many you know, gaps and 505 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: redactions and things deleted. Um So in many ways I 506 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: got the standard treatment. And it took a long time, 507 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: but they came through with enough of the operational files 508 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: that I could write the book. It was a tough, 509 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: tough thing to get it all together. And in the end, 510 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: the positive intelligence, the business about radars and what Tolkachov 511 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: actually stole, I didn't get any documents on, and I 512 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: had to put that together myself by interviewing people. And 513 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: this book is based on nine and forty four pages 514 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: of operational cables that the CIA d classified for me, 515 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: but it's also based on extensive interviewing with the people 516 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: that were involved. And this is something that all historians encounter, 517 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: which is documents initially get you very excited, but after 518 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: a while you find it's the human stories and the 519 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: people who participated that are essential element of telling the story. 520 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: And you were absolutely no stranger to the Cold War 521 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: before writing this book. You covered that area era of 522 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: global politics extensively in your journalism year. You want to 523 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: pull a Thugh Prize for your previous book about the 524 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: Cold War arms race, titled The Dead Hand. But I'm 525 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: wondering that, even with that level of familiarity that you had, 526 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: did you come across any revelatory information while working on 527 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: this book that really surprised you. Well, there's a lot 528 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: of different kinds of surprises. I'll tell you one I've 529 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: always had in the back of my mind that CIA 530 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: officers were out there on the street and when they 531 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: had an agent or a spy, they'd say, you know, 532 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: can you tell me about the latest ss A team missile? 533 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: And I had the impression of people that were spies 534 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,479 Speaker 1: for America, both the spies and the case officers who 535 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: handled them, as having these detailed discussions about top secret information. 536 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: But what I learned is the CIA has two kinds 537 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: of people out there working, and many of them are 538 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: like these case officers I described in the book, who 539 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: are not schooled in all the details of the missiles 540 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: and the radars. They're schooled in human psychology, which is, 541 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: how do you handle the spy, how do you look 542 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: him in the eye, how do you steady his nerves? 543 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: And that itself is a whole discipline. And those guys 544 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: who were running the Tolkachov operation and planning to meet 545 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: with him and thinking about his needs, they actually had 546 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: no idea what was in those roles of film he 547 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: was giving them. They passed those back to the headquarters, 548 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: and somebody back there worried about that. So for me, 549 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: it was quite interesting to see that in the cockpit 550 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: of espionage, a lot of it was very much this 551 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: human factor, and that that's what case officers focused on. 552 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: And the whole complex, very very dense business of the 553 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: military confrontation was not something that the case officer dealing 554 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: with Kokachov worried about, but he did think about Tokachov 555 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: wants some Western rock music for his son. Now, if 556 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: we give him an album that says You're I A 557 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: heap on it and someone spots that in his apartment, well, 558 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: that be suspicious. Maybe we should give him the records 559 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: the music from Uri a Heat that his son wants 560 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: on a beat up old cassette with no label, and 561 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: maybe we should buy that cassette in East Germany or 562 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: someplace that won't look that suspicious. So this choreography of espionage, 563 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: the human fact, of the psychology, the body language, the 564 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: all of that was a specialty, and I think that 565 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: readers of this book will come to appreciate and understand 566 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: that choreography in a way I certainly did that was 567 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: much different than my very simple minded, stereotyped idea of 568 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: what spies did well. And I will say this, I really, 569 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: really loved how you wrote about David Rolfe, who was 570 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: his second case officer, and how he really viewed himself 571 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: as uh sort of an advocate, as a connection between 572 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: Tolkachov and the people he was reporting back to. You 573 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: Like that really struck me as something I never would 574 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: have really thought about in those terms. Uh So I 575 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: appreciate that because it really did sort of open up 576 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: a whole vista of thinking to me. And as I 577 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: was saying, you know, even for the case officers, this 578 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: uh choreography of espionage was an art form, and it 579 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: was something that they spent an enormous amount of time 580 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: trying to perfect and not screw up. And because David 581 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: Rolph said, I know, if I make one mistake, it 582 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: could cost pokach Off his life. Okay, onto slightly lighter fare. 583 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: I have one last question which is not really so 584 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: deeply related specifically to the story, but one of the 585 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: things again, another thing that never occurred to me, but 586 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: which jumped out at me over and over in reading 587 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: this book was how common it seemed for husbands and 588 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: wives to both be working for intelligence agencies. And on 589 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: the one hand, it makes perfect sense, but it's something 590 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: that just never occurred to me. And again this is 591 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: probably informed by being a person who takes in, you know, 592 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: modern culture and entertainment where there's off it more often 593 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: than not, there's this whole secret life situation going on. 594 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: So I'm wondering, just in your research, how often that 595 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 1: scenario of married couples both being part of an agency 596 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 1: is sort of do rigor or were those outliers that 597 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: just happened to come up a lot? In this book, 598 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: almost all CIA case officerss that went abroad who were 599 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: married both husband and wife work for the CIA. UH 600 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: The wives were usually put on a contract in the 601 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: husband's with full time employees, So the wives had a 602 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: very important role, and it was oftentimes obscured by the 603 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: fact that they weren't the case officer. But for example, 604 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,760 Speaker 1: in David Ross's case, when he goes on this huge 605 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: surveillance detection to try and escape the KGB for a 606 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: meeting he was going to have, he actually went out 607 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 1: of the country to try and fool them, came back 608 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: early when they weren't looking, and as soon as he 609 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: comes back in the country, he takes a cab. He 610 00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: gets out of a cab, he takes a mett. He 611 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: does all these things right, including a duffel bag that's 612 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: got a disguise that's brought by one another guy's wife 613 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: to his wife at the school was he's teaching, and 614 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: then she drives and meets him at the Metro and 615 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: picks him up, and then he puts onto the sky. 616 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: So a lot of what the wives did was part 617 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,280 Speaker 1: of this constant shadowy handing off and trying to escape 618 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 1: this KGB surveillance. And because they knew what was going on, 619 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 1: because they were sometimes driving their husbands someplace, the KGB 620 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: was lulled a little bit by the routines that they 621 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: went on. And if the wife drove to school every 622 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 1: day and drove home back and forth every single day, 623 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: that kind of lost interest in that, and that was 624 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,399 Speaker 1: an opportunity. And if the wife could stick a little 625 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: duffel bag inside the car the KGB couldn't see, they 626 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,800 Speaker 1: were very, very important in helping these operations actually succeed. 627 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: It's so fascinating to me because there were so many 628 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 1: incidents just like the one you described where even at 629 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: the very beginning of the book you're talking about a 630 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,359 Speaker 1: gentleman and his wife, it's actually two diplomats, I think 631 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,320 Speaker 1: in their wives in a car and one of the 632 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: wives is holding a jack in the box, which is 633 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 1: this pop up silhouette that will replace the silhouette of 634 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: her husband after he jumps out of the car when 635 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,839 Speaker 1: they go on a turn, disguised as a birthday cake. 636 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 1: And I was like, really, his wife just did that. 637 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: So I really loved that part of the operation. And 638 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: she was under contract. And you know the that think 639 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: that jack in the box, which is a pop up 640 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 1: cut out the fool the KGB. You know, she when 641 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 1: he jumped out, she would reach forward from the back 642 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: seat and pull a lever that popped up that thing 643 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: and pretended like nothing was happening. And when that car 644 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: went zooming down the boulevard and the KGB went zooming 645 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: after thinking the guy was still in the car, but 646 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: actually he was in disguise on a side street going 647 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: off to meet the spy. I loved it. And the 648 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,879 Speaker 1: book is so full of details like that that I'm 649 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: sure our listeners will absolutely delight in the both. The 650 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 1: Billion Dollar Spy has been out for several weeks now 651 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 1: and it has gotten rave reviews and well deserved, so 652 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: congratulations on that. So I think people who are fascinated 653 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: by spy stories and espionage and intelligence and history, we'll 654 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,800 Speaker 1: just find a feast of information. So thank you so 655 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: very much for taking time to chat with us today. 656 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: I can't tell you how much we appreciate it. Well, 657 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: thanks for having me, and I hope readers enjoy it. 658 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: I am confident that they shall thank you, Mr Hoffman. 659 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: I love, love, loved the information that came up at 660 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: the end of that interview that Mr Hoffman shared with 661 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: us about CIA spouses. That really surprised me, but it 662 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: made so much sense. I have always been kind of 663 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: curious about that, like if you're if you're a spy, 664 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: what happens to your spouse. So again, this book is 665 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 1: called The Billion Dollar Spy. It's by David E. Hoffman, 666 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: and it is available now and you can learn more 667 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: about it at David E. Hoffman dot com and you 668 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,760 Speaker 1: can follow Mr Hoffman on Twitter at the Dead Hand. Okay, 669 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,839 Speaker 1: and I have a little bit of listener mail as well. 670 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 1: This comes from our listener Ellen, and she says, Hi, 671 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: Tracy and Holly, I've been listening to your podcast for 672 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: almost a year now out I feel that it is 673 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: necessary to tell you why I started listening because I 674 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: know Holly has a love for Disney that I also share. 675 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,800 Speaker 1: I have always enjoyed history and I found your podcast 676 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: when I was training for the Dopey Challenge. If you're 677 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: not aware, the Dopey Challenge consists of running a five k, 678 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 1: a ten k, a half marathon, and a full marathon 679 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: at Walt Disney World during Walt Disney World Marathon weekend 680 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,359 Speaker 1: every January. Since I was going to be running forty 681 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: eight point six miles over the course of four days, 682 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:28,800 Speaker 1: I needed to listen to more than just music in 683 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 1: my training, and your podcast got me through many long 684 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,360 Speaker 1: hours of running. I did complete the Dope and attached 685 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: as a picture of me with all my medals. I 686 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: also wanted to share that the first podcast I listened 687 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 1: to was the Heavy Green episode and you read a 688 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: fan mail about Kendall mint Cake. I couldn't believe this 689 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: because my brother in law grew up in Kendall, and 690 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: I thought it was a crazy coincidence to immediately know 691 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,280 Speaker 1: what you were talking about. Because I have had Kendle 692 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,439 Speaker 1: mint Cake many times and even visited Kendall. I felt 693 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 1: like it was time to write because I have some 694 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: podcast ideas to share, and she shares some with us. 695 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: I'm not going to give those away because uh, I 696 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: really love them. She offered up a couple of different 697 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: female astronomers from the early twentieth century, and I think 698 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: we know that I love astronomy, so high level of 699 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,839 Speaker 1: likelihood they'll eventually make it into circulation. I don't know when, 700 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: but so Ellen, thank you for this awesome email. Because 701 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: I knew what the Dope challenge was. I ran the 702 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: Goofy and Tracy was actually with me on that trip 703 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: before the Dope was officially established, and at that point 704 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 1: we used to do kind of an informal version that 705 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 1: we called the Dope, but the ten K didn't exist yet, 706 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: so it was just the five K, the half and 707 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: the full. Uh. I cannot imagine doing the dope. I 708 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: guess I could. No, I guess I could. It's only 709 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: six more miles than the weekend I did. But I 710 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 1: will tell you this, Nope, I don't. I don't want 711 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: to run any more. Marathon's all run a half every 712 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 1: month with a smile on my face, but the full 713 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,799 Speaker 1: marathon just I got real angry about my late tea. Yeah. 714 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: I occasionally will think to myself, maybe I should run 715 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: a marathon, and I don't even get all the way 716 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:03,280 Speaker 1: through marathon before I'm like no, Like, I would definitely 717 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: do another half. That half is pretty fun, and I 718 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: think I can training for the half, but there's just 719 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: so much training involved in a full marathon and I 720 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:12,880 Speaker 1: don't have time for that. That's what it is. And 721 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 1: when you're doing something like this, which is an amazing 722 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 1: feat where you're training to run multiple races over four days, 723 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 1: in your training, there are big chunks of your life 724 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,839 Speaker 1: that just don't exist anymore because you're putting on my ledge. 725 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,279 Speaker 1: Like you have to kind of do mock weekends that 726 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: aren't the full mileage that you do on something like 727 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,720 Speaker 1: the Dopey, but where you'll run a lot on a Friday, 728 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:33,359 Speaker 1: and then a lot more on a Saturday, and then 729 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 1: a lot more on a Sunday, and usually there's so 730 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 1: long and one right after the other that you're exhausted 731 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: and you really can't get anything else done that weekend. 732 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: So my hat is off to you, Ellen. She looks 733 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: so joyous with all of her medals. Thank you for 734 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: sharing those. You are awesome. That is a huge accomplishment 735 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: and I applaud anyone and everyone that even undertakes it, 736 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: whether you finish or not, that's just some gumption that 737 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: I have to respect. If you would like to write 738 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: to us, share your stories of gumption or Disney this 739 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 1: It's or talk about spying, you can do that at 740 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 1: history podcast at how stuff works dot com. You can 741 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: also go to Facebook dot com slash mist in History, 742 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 1: on Twitter at mist in History, at pinterest dot com 743 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 1: slash mist in Hisstory. We have a tumbler at miss 744 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: in history dot tumbler dot com or on Instagram at 745 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,799 Speaker 1: mist in History. And uh we have a spreadshirt store 746 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: at Misston History dot spreadshirt dot com where you can 747 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: get all kinds of history themed goodies, from shirts to 748 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 1: phonecases and everything in between. UH. If you would like 749 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 1: to visit our parents site, that's how stuff works dot com, 750 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:34,719 Speaker 1: courage you to do so. You can also visit us 751 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,359 Speaker 1: on the web at misston History dot com and check 752 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: out our archive of all of the episodes that have 753 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: ever existed, plus show notes for all of the episodes 754 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: Tracy and I have worked on, as well as the 755 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: occasional of their blog post or Goody and some cool 756 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,839 Speaker 1: visuals to go along with all these things so again. 757 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: Visit us at house to works dot com and Mimston 758 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: hisstory dot com for more on this and thousands of 759 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how staff Works dot com. E