WEBVTT - Jon Cohen 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.680 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to Bob Leftshut Podcast. My guest 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:17.080 today is John Combe of Cornerstone and Fader. You have 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:21.239 like a giant enterprise. How many different divisions do you have? 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.640 It's first of all, nice to be here, Bob, Thank 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:28.040 you so much for having me on. We actually run 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:33.160 two separate companies, but they have very many tentacles, so 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:35.159 I could take you through a little bit of what 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:39.199 we do. Cornerstone is our agency and it's focused on 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:45.400 helping brand build platforms, advertising strategy around music and culture, 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:50.839 and we work in that business for Converse, Nike, Coca Cola, 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:55.600 Major League Soccer, and our specialty is really and we're 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.520 twenty eight years old. Our specialty is really helping brands 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:02.120 understand how to connect to music and culture. And sometimes 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:08.160 that's creating full service advertising creative. Sometimes that's purely music 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:12.560 specific strategy. Sometimes that's experiential on how they interact with 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.240 festivals and things of that nature. And then we have 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:17.840 a media company called The Fader, and The Fader started 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:22.160 twenty five years ago and it is a music platform. 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:26.440 Started as a print magazine. We gave artists like Kanye 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:30.720 and Cardi B and Kendrick Lamar and Drake and the Strokes, 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.760 the White Stripes, some of their first covers, some of 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:37.120 their first coverage in the press, and we really grew 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.160 it into a full service media platform. We've got great 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:43.440 social channels. We do a lot online. We have about 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:47.480 three thousand pieces of unique video across all of our 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.400 different video channels. We built a festival called Fader for 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:54.320 it and then attached to that business. We've got a 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:57.960 film and TV division called Fader Films, and we have 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.760 a music division which is Fader Label. It's our management 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.360 company and our publishing company. So it's a lot of entities, 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:06.880 but they're all very tightly connected. 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:11.480 Other than you, does anybody work for Cornerstone and also 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:13.400 work for Fader or vice versa. 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:19.320 Yes, there is some crossover. We've got an amazing team 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:21.519 and there's a lot of synergies between the two. We 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.960 absolutely want to keep the purity of editorials separate from 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:30.760 what we do on the commercial side. But our incredible COO, 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:35.280 Anthony Holland, touches every piece of that business and he 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:38.240 is the guy that keeps all the trends running on time. 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:43.960 You know. We have our back end services like accounting, legal, 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:46.440 things of that nature. They work across all the entities. 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:48.120 I mean, there's a lot of synergy by having so 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:51.919 many businesses. Robert English, who's been with us for twenty 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.359 five years, he's basically the de facto head of an 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:58.320 R across the entire entire company. So when we're looking 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:01.840 for music for a campaign, he is talking to all 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:04.440 the agencies and the managers and the labels. He's doing 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.920 the deals, and he'll do that for Fader, he'll do 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:11.000 that for Cornerstone, he'll do that across everything. And then 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:13.680 there's a music division which is headed up by a 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:15.960 young guy named Carson Oberg, who does an incredible job. 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:19.080 He oversees our management, he oversees the label team, he 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:23.360 oversees our publishing, so he's pretty much isolated in that world, 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:26.280 but he then gets to tap into some of those 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:28.960 back end resources to help power what we do on 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:32.399 the label side, so there is some crossover. It does 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.120 work really well together. When we explain this to people, 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.720 it's always overwhelming, and some people only know us by 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.600 one small segment of the company, and then others have 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.080 worked with us across the entire enterprise. 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:47.480 Okay, how many full time employees now. 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:52.880 We are currently at thirty five full time employees. It's 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.720 the leanness we've been in a long time. At our peak, 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:00.160 we were as many as one hundred and ten employees, 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:04.080 and a lot of that scale is dictated sometimes by 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:08.640 the number of brand clients we have or what we're 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.320 doing on the media side. Clearly, you know, after Covid 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:16.080 there were challenges with media and certain components of the business. 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:19.520 So we made a decision to operate the company on 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:23.080 a much leaner level, and it's worked out really well 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.880 because it's given us a chance to focus on the 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:29.680 revenue streams and the aspects of the business that are 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:30.360 doing the best. 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:37.599 Okay, and you oversee everything, is there? Anybody tell me? 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.480 Yeah? So I oversee the entire company, and I think 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.640 it's really important we start our conversation just to give 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:48.640 you some background on my partner in our history. The 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:54.560 companies were founded in partnership between myself and Rob Stone. Sadly, 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:58.279 Rob passed away this summer. He not only has been 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:04.040 an incredible partner for the last twenty eight years, Rob 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:08.560 started the Cornerstone side of the business himself. The story 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.080 is that Rob and I grew up together. We've been 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:15.200 best friends since seventh grade. We discovered music together. Not 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.760 only were we, you know, great friends growing up having 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:22.960 so many amazing life experiences, our love and passion for 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:26.280 music started when we were kids in junior high school 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:28.400 all the way on up to high school. I remember 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:33.240 discovering hip hop listening to run DMC with Rob Stone 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:37.480 on cassette. I remember every big album that would come out. 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.279 We would drive around in his car and listen to 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.440 music and discovering not only hip hop, but you two 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.320 so much music. And the bonds of our friendship led 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:51.479 us to enter the music industry, and Rob and I 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:57.160 started together at SBK. We worked under Daniel Glass. Rob 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:00.920 was ahead of mixed show and dance promotion. His job 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:03.480 was to really work with all the different DJs around 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:07.760 the country. I was working in the field. I was working, 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.560 you know, as a local promotion rep in the Northeast. 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:13.840 I started in video promotion work my way into the field, 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:17.200 and we worked together there and the seeds for our 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.960 company were born out of all of those conversations, all 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:25.080 of the time we spent loving music, and you know, 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:30.240 we basically saw this rise as young people in the 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:33.280 music industry and learned so much from so many people. 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:37.960 I went and left SBKA, I went to Columbia Records. 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:40.200 Rob left and he went to work for Clive Davis 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:44.279 at Arista Records. And when our respective contracts were coming up, 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.600 we started talking about the plans to start our own company. 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:52.280 And Rob's deal expired first in nineteen ninety six, he 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.760 stepped out and left Arista. At Arista, his claim to 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.720 fame was he is the person who was big eas 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:05.520 uguest confidant. He spent his time at Arista breaking notorious big. 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:07.839 He traveled around the country with him, He got his 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.880 music played on the radio. He was really the liaison 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:16.320 between you know, bad Boy and Arista, and he really 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:18.800 established himself, you know, in the world of hip hop 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:23.200 through those times. I was working in alternative promotion for 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.360 Columbia at the time. So Rob left first in ninety 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:31.040 six when his contract expired, and the idea was we 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:33.720 were going to start a music marketing company, and Cornerstone 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:38.320 was initially a place for artists, managers and labels to 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:42.200 hire us directly to help supplement what the labels weren't 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.520 doing enough of for their artists. It was our ability 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.240 to get records played on the radio, our ability to 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.720 help build the right marketing plan, to build some resources 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:55.920 to promote artists on college campuses, and we were wildly successful. 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:58.880 So Rob started in ninety six. My contract expired a 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:02.480 year later. Rob Rob started the company out of Loud Records. 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:05.960 Steve Rifkin was a great mentor to Rob and to 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:08.880 both of us. He gave Rob off of space and 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.200 was a partner in the initial start of Cornerstone. And 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:15.080 Rob was able to work with Steve and the power 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:18.040 of Loud and all he was doing in the hip 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:22.120 hop world to really cement Cornerstone's early success in the 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:26.200 hip hop world. I left, I joined him and I 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:28.720 started doing the alternative side of the business, and we 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:32.360 were working for every major label. We were talking directly 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:34.960 to so many artists. What was amazing about that time 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:39.120 in Cornerstone was that a lot of artists they wanted 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:41.679 to talk to somebody outside of the label system. They 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.920 wanted to hear other people's opinions. So, you know, people 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.480 like labeled like bad Boy would have us coming to 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:52.360 the studio. We would go here Outcasts Records before even 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.000 Arista had heard some of the music. You know, people 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:58.440 like John Silva were asking us to come here Beck Music. 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.240 We were working so closely with the labels and the 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:04.520 artists that we were making an impact because we were 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.160 helping use our knowledge of what we learned in the 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:10.199 music industry to help them make better decisions and help 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:15.680 use our relationships to break artists. Slowly we started making 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:19.000 these tools, like we made a mixtape SERI like every 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:23.160 month we put out a mixtape. Then eventually all of 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:26.160 the access we had to music led to Fader. Fader 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:29.360 was our way of documenting all of this access we 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:33.520 had to music early and brands started getting their hands 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.320 on all these materials. The head of Sprite was a 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:38.280 guy named Darryl Cobb, and he called Rob and I 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:40.640 up and said, Hey, I don't know who you guys are, 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:43.480 but I've seen some of your materials and your work. 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:48.040 We're trying to revolutionize Sprite and embrace the culture of 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:51.480 hip hop to market Sprite, and we need someone to 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.080 help guide us. Would you guys come down to Atlanta 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.360 and sit with us and our agencies and our team 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:59.720 to tell us a little bit more about music. I 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:02.520 was reluctant. I was like, Ah, that's sellout shit, you know, 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:04.800 like that is you know, like we're about the music. 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:07.280 Rob was like, I think we should listen to this guy. 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.720 He's really smart. He's really opened my mind. So Rob 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:14.760 convinced both of us to go down there, and two 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:19.839 things happen. Number One, we realized that these guys cared 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:22.120 more about the music and the culture of the music 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:26.760 than the labels at the time, and they had such 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:29.760 enormous budgets compared to what we were working with within 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.720 music that not only could we be more successful and 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:35.760 make more money, they were willing to put more money 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.679 into the marketing of all these artists. And that's when 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:40.880 the light bulb for Rob and I went off and 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.319 we realized, like, holy shit, we can have the best 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:47.240 of both worlds. We can really consult some of the 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:51.199 most powerful brands in the world in how they market themselves. 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:54.199 And then we can take that money and that power 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:58.160 and really strengthen our ties to the artists, to the managers, 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:00.559 so we can do more for them, and we can 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:04.320 enhance what artists can do outside of their normal record 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:06.959 deals and put some more power on their hands. At 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:10.520 the same time, we're building Fader as a way of 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:13.880 documenting all of this access we have in culture. So 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.760 number one, you know we wouldn't I wouldn't be here, 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:21.760 My business wouldn't be here without the incredible legend of 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:24.679 Rob Stone, and it's it's just sad to have this 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:29.800 conversation without him. He Rob loved reading your work, Bob. 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:33.720 We would often talk about various things that you write about. 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:37.079 And I feel horrible that we're not doing this interview 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:41.640 together because we had an incredible friendship that we've experienced 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:45.040 so much, an incredible partnership with so much success, and 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:48.080 the fact that you know, I'm talking about these things 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:50.400 without him, it just still doesn't feel real to me. 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.640 He was such a special person with such an incredible 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.960 career and the impact he had on our company. What 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:00.959 we've done together is something that it just it feels 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.160 really surreal to be doing it without them. So that's 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:07.720 the long Paull story of how we got to where 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:12.120 we are with the business. But we are proudly record 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:16.160 industry people. We are proudly born and raised in that system. 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:18.560 And for all the flaws and things that we didn't 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.560 love that led us to want to start our own business, 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:23.439 there's so many things that we do love and it's 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:28.319 still an incredible business and it's the reason we're successful 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:30.800 coming up in that business. The things that we learned 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:34.520 in our respective jobs gave us the platform to build 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:37.360 what we have. And it's almost like we have operated 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:39.760 someone under the radar. You know, we're still very close 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.440 to so many people in that business, but we kind 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:45.440 of live in a parallel universe, slightly under the radar. 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:49.440 But music is still the thread, that's the DNA for 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:50.920 every aspect of our business. 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.920 Okay, just focusing on Rob for a minute. When did 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:57.600 you find out he was ill? 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:04.280 That he was ill in July of last summer, and 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:08.600 he kept his diagnosis very private. When we were kids, 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.520 Rob had cancer and was a survivor. He beat a 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:18.120 very serious case of Hodgkins and was incredible throughout that 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:21.000 journey when we were twenty and he's just he was 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:25.599 just a warrior as a person. And he got diagnosed 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:29.120 in July. He kept the diagnosis private, and I think 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.040 that's why so many of our friends and so many 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:33.760 in the industry were shocked. And he he just chose 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.080 to put the focus on his recovery and his family. 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:41.160 And you know, I was there along along with him 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:43.520 for the whole ride, and he and he faced it 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:46.240 and fought it bravely, and his hope was he was 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:48.280 going to continue to improve and let more people in 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:52.920 the circle. But unfortunately it just got out of control, 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:55.440 and you know, he lost the battle. 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.800 So who owns cornerstone in the theater today? 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:06.480 Right now? I own corners thrown out right with Rob's estate, 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:10.280 which will figure out the future of that. 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:23.960 And that includes your saying, that includes everything. Yes, let's 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:28.560 go back to the beginning. You guys are from where exactly? 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:32.120 We're from Long Island. So Rob and I were both 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.200 born in Brooklyn, and we grew up in Long Island, 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.520 went to junior high school and high school together. 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:41.440 And what did let's focus on you what did your 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:42.640 parents do for a living. 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:45.920 So my parents were in the retail business. Both of 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:51.440 our parents were hard working, you know, entrepreneurs. My dad 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:55.880 was in the leather goods business. He sold women's handbags 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:59.160 and accessories. He still does it at eighty four years 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:02.040 of age. And I worked in his business as a 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:04.560 kid and he's still working hard. Rob's dad was in 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.800 the trucking in warehouse business in Brooklyn, And we both 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.840 came from real working class families, and I think our 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:15.280 parents both instilled that work ethic and that hunger to 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:18.120 run our own businesses, you know in both of us, 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:20.440 and I think they both. They all had a real 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:23.160 effect on how we built this company. 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:24.880 And do you have siblings. 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:27.600 I do. I have a brother who lives in la 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:31.520 He runs a film and TV production company. He does 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.320 some work for us. He shoots some of our TV 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:35.560 commercials and content. 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:40.560 He's just one brother, one brother. Yeah, Okay, So you 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:43.680 graduate from high school, you end up going to Syracuse. 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:44.960 Tell me about that choice. 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:51.640 Syracuse was incredible. I went to Syracuse really not sure 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:53.440 what I was going to study. I was in the 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:56.360 new House program there. I was also a business major, 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:01.640 but it was in new House, which is their communications school. 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:03.920 I started to learn that there was really an industry 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:09.280 behind music. I loved music. I'm a horrible guitar player, 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.680 as I could see behind me, Bob I was in bands, 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:14.800 but I knew I had no chance in hell of 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.239 having any success as a musician. But what I realized 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.920 through some great friends in college, is that there was 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:28.200 a real industry behind the business. And I just loved 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.320 researching and learning what I could about the business. And 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:35.960 that school, as you probably know, had an unbelievable alumni 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.600 that comes from our business. You know, there was so 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.600 many generations. There was you know, the Rob Lights and 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:45.880 Phil Q and John Syke's generation that all came out 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.080 of Syracuse, and I always looked up to them and 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:50.840 studied their stories. And then you know, I was there 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:54.880 with an unbelievable cast of current players in the industry, 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:57.280 whether it was Joel Klayman, who was the former GM 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:02.120 of Columbia Records, or David Sadlow who runs Lama Vista 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:04.960 and was at Aristo, or Jacquelin Saturn at virgin and 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:09.879 Syracuse really gave me the platform to understand more about 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:12.800 the music industry and and and a lot of different 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:17.280 aspects of our business. And it's it's a really amazing 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:20.399 school in the sense that they connect you to the 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.080 people in the real world. You don't just learn and 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:25.520 you know, take a bunch of things that anybody can 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.040 learn from a book. They they've got this network where 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:31.359 they really do a good job of connecting to people, 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:33.920 to the to the outside world so they can learn 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:34.480 first time. 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:36.880 So how did you get connected such that you got 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:37.800 the job at SBK. 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:45.240 So I was lucky enough to meet Charles Koppleman. His 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:49.000 daughter had attended Syracuse. She was a friend, and I 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:53.120 was able to become one of their first campus reps 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:55.920 up at Syracuse. So I was marketing all of their 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:57.800 music in the Northeast. 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.359 Just to be This was when SBK was all already 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:00.840 a label. 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.160 This is when SBK was a publishing company. And then 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:09.160 it just got funding in this ridiculous, insane deal from 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:13.440 EMI to start a label on the master side, and 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:17.240 they had an unbelievab amount of funding. I went down 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:19.840 met them in person. I think I was a junior. 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.399 Really loved everybody I met there, and they gave me 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:25.639 a chance to intern over the summer and then be 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.720 a college rep on campus. And my job back then 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.919 was to hang posters of our artists, take inventory or 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:36.000 record stores, get artists played on the campus radio stations. 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:40.200 And I would go anywhere from the Albany region up 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:45.200 to Boston to cover stuff. And you know, SBK had 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.520 a very unique deal. They had a deal with EMI 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:53.600 that was based on gross revenue. So the idea was 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.439 for them to have as much success as possible, but 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:58.359 they didn't really have to worry about the bottom line. 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:00.199 They just wanted to gross as much revenue, so we 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:02.560 put out a lot of records. We were the home 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:05.440 of a lot of the big one hit wonders. Back 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:09.360 in those days, I worked on projects like Jesus Jones 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:12.240 and Wilson Phillips, and then as I when I graduated, 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:13.920 I went to work for them full time. The week 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:17.199 after I graduated, we had put out Vanilla Ice. That 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:21.920 summer arrested development. We had so many enormous artists, some 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.480 of them that really stuck around for one or two singles. 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:26.840 But it was an incredible time because they had this 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:30.240 unique deal where they were all about really trying to 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:32.919 rush and ramp up the success, and it was a 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:35.359 fun time in the music industry to be a young person. 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:38.200 Okay, I have to ask you. Know, at the beginning 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:44.320 of SBK, Monty was a regional promotion man and he 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:48.439 is arguably the most powerful and successful executive on the 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:51.000 recorded side of music today. Did you work with Monty? 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:51.640 I did? 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:54.320 What did you see? I mean, I knew Monty. It's 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:57.680 an amazing story. Did you see anything or were you surprised? 0:19:58.320 --> 0:19:58.960 Give me your take. 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:02.280 Yes. First of all, I love Monty, so not only 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.919 before Monty was thrown in the field he started. I 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:07.720 believe he'll kill me if I got this wrong, but 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.600 I think he was Neil Lasher's assistant. When I was 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:13.760 an intern, I would help them out, and I believe 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:17.320 Monty's first role there might have been helping Neil Lasher 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:19.960 and then they quickly realized how smart he was and 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:24.080 they sent him down to Atlanta. I knew Monty, and 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:26.600 this sounds cliche. I knew he was going to be 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:29.640 a huge success back then because he did two things. 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:33.720 Number One, he outworked everyone, but he had this calm 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.560 for a young person around him. But what I loved 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.600 the most about Monty, and I subsequently got to know 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:43.840 Avery really well to his brother, who he started Republic with. 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.439 What I loved about Monty is he was an A 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:49.280 and R guy. Even though they had him doing promotion, 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:53.399 Monty was always looking for what was going to be 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.479 next in music, and I really had this gut feeling 0:20:56.880 --> 0:20:59.439 he was going to be a superstar, and for me 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:03.000 to have a front seat to watch him rise has 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:06.239 been an honor. Both Rob and I were still are 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:09.000 very close with Monty. I love him to death, and 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:14.439 you know, he really had everything that you knew you 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:17.440 needed to succeed in our business, and for a young 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:21.480 person back then to really think beyond his role. You 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:24.080 could tell he was going places. And I was lucky, 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:26.800 like at the talent of the SPKA days, I got 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:30.680 to see those two start Republic and they worked out 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:33.640 of this I live in the Upper East Side of Manhattan. 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:38.400 They started the label out of this really small, one 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:41.240 bedroom apartment three blocks from where I am right now, 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:43.399 and it was just so much fun to go over 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:46.840 to see that these two guys quit in the middle 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:48.920 of their height of their career. They could have made 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:53.560 fortune continuing to work on the corporate record side, but 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:56.439 they both had the balls to step out and start 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:59.080 something entrepreneurial. And it was just so much fun when 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:01.199 I would go knock the door of their apartment and 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:04.399 I'd see boxes of CDEs and they'd be shipping stuff 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:08.120 and they'd be running this business out of this really 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:11.000 small apartment and it you know, they gave Rob and 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:13.560 I a lot of confidence that, hey, you gotta be 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:16.560 gutsy and step away from what's safe to really make 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:19.919 an impact. So I have huge love and respect for Monty, 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:23.159 and you know, beyond Monty that the one thing that 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:26.480 Daniel doesn't get enough credit for is what a great 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:29.640 teacher he was. I mean, we had so many incredible 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:33.000 people that went on to big things in the music 0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:36.920 industry that came under his tutelage of Charles and Marty too, 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:39.520 I mean they deserve tons of credit. I mean that 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:43.560 Trio had so many amazing people who are running such 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:47.200 big entities right now in our business that they deserve 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:50.120 a lot of credit for what they really started. 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:54.600 Okay, you started in video promotion. MTV was still very powerful. 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:55.439 Tell us about that. 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:59.840 So I was assisting Hillary shav at the time, who 0:22:59.880 --> 0:23:02.600 was our head of video promotion, and our job was 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:06.600 to get our videos played on MTV. And and you know, 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:09.360 you talk about this a lot, is you know what's 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:12.960 missing in our industry today? There aren't big mass drivers. 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:15.760 And back then, the reason why we broke so many 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:21.600 superstars was you had big drivers, and none bigger of 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:25.199 a driver was there than MTV. I mean the power 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:27.960 that MTV had. When you got a video and what 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:31.359 they call buzz bin back then, or a video into 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:35.280 any form of rotation, you saw instant success, and not 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:38.760 just a little success. You essentially knew you were going 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:42.080 to break the artists. So our job was not only 0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:44.399 to submit our videos, but it was to figure to 0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:49.280 build relationships with that team at MTV and really figure 0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:51.840 out what what was an artist place and what was 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:54.520 the best way to establish that artist. And we were 0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:57.960 very successful. I mean, labels, if you remember, spent so 0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:01.520 much money Bob on on making videos and the level 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:05.360 of production, and MTV had such few slots. I mean, 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:09.320 it was so hard to crack MTV. But if I 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:12.119 think of the industry back then versus the industry today, 0:24:12.720 --> 0:24:16.199 MTV was a vehicle that just meant so much, and 0:24:16.840 --> 0:24:20.400 I sometimes think about imagine there was something like that 0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:23.720 equivalent to that where you had the Taylor Swifts and 0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:26.959 the major pop stars of today have access to that. 0:24:27.880 --> 0:24:30.080 I was thinking about that during the VMAs the other night, 0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:32.960 and the VMA has felt slightly more relevant this year 0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:35.400 than past. I mean, you probably have a better take 0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:39.040 on it than I do. But that was our role. 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:41.440 Our role was not only to get our videos played, 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:44.000 but to find the right way to get artists on 0:24:44.000 --> 0:24:46.920 one hundred and twenty minutes or then Unplugged came later, 0:24:47.000 --> 0:24:51.360 and then you had the VMAs were basically the equivalent, 0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:54.240 if not bigger than the Grammys back then, so it 0:24:54.280 --> 0:24:58.160 was a really good first experience for me to learn 0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:00.439 the ropes of breaking artists, how. 0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:02.600 Did you end up in the field and radio promotion. 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:07.760 So the next step was they needed bodies and people 0:25:07.840 --> 0:25:10.480 to be out there, and I had built a really 0:25:10.680 --> 0:25:14.000 good relationship with Daniel and Ken Lane, who is our 0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:16.520 head of Top forty, and Neil l Asher, who I said 0:25:16.520 --> 0:25:19.199 earlier out of Rock, and they felt that was a 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:22.200 good next step for me. I wanted to be more 0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:24.679 of an A and R person or a marketer. I 0:25:24.720 --> 0:25:27.959 didn't love the idea of promotion, but I knew it 0:25:28.000 --> 0:25:30.600 was an important part of the business, and I felt 0:25:30.640 --> 0:25:33.080 that it was a chance for me to work closely 0:25:33.119 --> 0:25:36.200 with artists. I really cherished that part of my job 0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:38.919 and working closely with artists. So they sent me to 0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:43.240 the field and I was responsible for getting our records 0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:47.400 played on stations like WBCN. And one of my claim 0:25:47.480 --> 0:25:51.760 to fames in my career is this young new British 0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:54.560 act was flying in to come to America for the 0:25:54.560 --> 0:25:57.520 first time and they sent me to the airport. I'm like, 0:25:57.760 --> 0:25:59.920 very new to the job. I'm literally on the job. 0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:03.360 A couple months, not even and I go to pick 0:26:03.440 --> 0:26:07.679 up this band called Blur, and I pile them with 0:26:07.720 --> 0:26:10.960 all their gear into my car and I drive them 0:26:11.000 --> 0:26:14.560 to WBCN and it's Damon and Graham and the whole 0:26:14.600 --> 0:26:18.000 band and their tour manager and we go. We do 0:26:18.080 --> 0:26:21.879 a great interview on WBCN. They do this great acoustic performance, 0:26:22.520 --> 0:26:27.399 and we're leaving WBCN and it's pouring rain now and 0:26:27.440 --> 0:26:30.760 I'm at a red light six weeks maybe into the job, 0:26:31.280 --> 0:26:34.440 and it's my first big thing that the label's having 0:26:34.480 --> 0:26:36.880 me to do. And Daniel nervous, He's like, how's it going? 0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:39.800 Is it going all right? Like this is really important? 0:26:40.200 --> 0:26:43.440 And I'm at a red light and a car skids 0:26:43.480 --> 0:26:47.280 from behind me, hits my car. We get into a 0:26:47.280 --> 0:26:50.320 total car wreck with Blur in the back and I 0:26:50.359 --> 0:26:52.360 look over. I'm like, holy shit, I hope these guys 0:26:52.359 --> 0:26:55.159 are okay, And thankfully they all start cracking up and 0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:58.320 laughing at the whole situation. We get out of the car, 0:26:58.560 --> 0:27:00.760 I get their gear, we go to their gear. Everything 0:27:00.800 --> 0:27:04.119 goes well, and luckily, the next day WBCN adds the 0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:07.160 first Blur record. But for a minute, my short lived 0:27:07.160 --> 0:27:09.800 career in the field could have ended very quickly, and 0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:13.080 I'm proud to say that I'm still you know, Dave, 0:27:13.160 --> 0:27:15.159 I consider Damon one of my best friends in the 0:27:15.160 --> 0:27:17.920 world to this day, and you know, from that minute 0:27:17.960 --> 0:27:19.920 it was it was an example that I made the 0:27:20.000 --> 0:27:22.320 right decision because it put me in the field and 0:27:22.400 --> 0:27:24.879 allowed me to get close to so many amazing artists 0:27:24.880 --> 0:27:28.639 and be part of so many moments. And I really 0:27:28.720 --> 0:27:31.520 learned a lot from from being out in the field 0:27:31.600 --> 0:27:34.199 and learning, you know, how to break artists. You know, 0:27:34.280 --> 0:27:37.240 I think the lost art is it's not just getting 0:27:37.240 --> 0:27:39.600 your records played on the radio. You're a part of 0:27:39.800 --> 0:27:43.520 what happens live. You're a part of, you know, having 0:27:43.560 --> 0:27:46.200 a relationship with the local press. Your job when you're 0:27:46.200 --> 0:27:48.840 in that job, and it's sad that this role doesn't 0:27:48.840 --> 0:27:51.600 really exist in today's record business. Your job is to 0:27:51.640 --> 0:27:55.439 connect that band, those artists to everything possible on a 0:27:55.440 --> 0:27:59.720 local level. And it's really changed a lot since then. 0:27:59.800 --> 0:28:03.320 I still think there is an importance to that mentality, 0:28:03.760 --> 0:28:06.920 but it's kind of gone from our business. Everything's so centralized. 0:28:07.840 --> 0:28:14.200 Okay, you bear no specific responsibility, but Blur was gigantic 0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:17.600 in the UK, blowing up the same time as Oasis. 0:28:17.960 --> 0:28:21.280 Oasis in America on Columbia was nowhere near as big 0:28:21.640 --> 0:28:24.479 as they were in the UK, but they did break. 0:28:24.840 --> 0:28:29.119 Blur essentially never broke in America. Ultimately, Gorillas did. What 0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:31.760 is your take why Blur didn't break in America? 0:28:33.040 --> 0:28:37.000 You know, I think it was a really exciting tie 0:28:37.040 --> 0:28:39.800 and that you know, I'm very passionate about the UK 0:28:40.040 --> 0:28:42.360 and British music and it's been a big part of 0:28:42.400 --> 0:28:46.280 my career. And I think the difference between the bands 0:28:46.760 --> 0:28:50.240 that have broken wide open and the bands that have it, 0:28:50.600 --> 0:28:53.760 or the reason why Blur did have success in their 0:28:53.840 --> 0:28:56.080 later years, they did sell out Medison Square Garden and 0:28:56.160 --> 0:28:59.960 the reason that Gorilla has succeeded is because the band 0:29:00.200 --> 0:29:04.600 that committed to touring and really doing laps around our 0:29:04.680 --> 0:29:09.080 country are the ones who succeeded. Radio had succeeded because 0:29:09.120 --> 0:29:13.400 they were a British band that really committed to doing 0:29:13.520 --> 0:29:17.400 laps around America. Oasis did a fair level, a fair 0:29:17.440 --> 0:29:20.360 amount of touring, you know, as chaotic as their world was, 0:29:20.400 --> 0:29:22.920 and I was at the first Oasis gig in New York. 0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:25.960 It was at Wetlands. I'll never forget it. I had 0:29:25.960 --> 0:29:29.840 an SBK act actually opening and I stayed and watched them. 0:29:30.440 --> 0:29:35.080 They put in the time and it's still the old 0:29:35.080 --> 0:29:40.400 school fundamentals that are important today. It's touring and lure. 0:29:40.560 --> 0:29:43.800 In those early years, they were frustrated with America. You know. 0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:46.880 It was I worked with Suede when I was a Columbia, 0:29:47.000 --> 0:29:49.320 another band that was so big. They could sell out 0:29:49.560 --> 0:29:53.120 the two or huge arenas all over Europe, but when 0:29:53.160 --> 0:29:56.480 it came to America, they could sell max Three four 0:29:56.560 --> 0:30:00.240 thousand tickets. And I think the reason why the those 0:30:00.360 --> 0:30:02.640 artists didn't break through in their early years, or the 0:30:02.680 --> 0:30:05.360 reason why Blur didn't break through at the level, was 0:30:05.400 --> 0:30:08.720 that touring commitment. They had success at home, and I 0:30:08.760 --> 0:30:11.640 think they put in a little more time now. Damon too, 0:30:11.720 --> 0:30:14.160 his credit started to fall in love with America. He 0:30:14.200 --> 0:30:17.200 started to realize, Wow, this is an incredible place. He 0:30:17.280 --> 0:30:21.400 took so much inspiration musically. He discovered hip hop himself, 0:30:21.440 --> 0:30:25.040 which inspired Gorillas, and then when it came to Gorillas, 0:30:25.080 --> 0:30:28.560 he really committed to putting in the time and touring 0:30:28.600 --> 0:30:32.520 Gorillas and doing press and really spending more time here. 0:30:32.560 --> 0:30:34.840 And I think that's a big part of the reason 0:30:34.960 --> 0:30:39.440 why Oasis broke Blur didn't. But Gorillas did, and I 0:30:39.480 --> 0:30:42.240 think that's a big reason what made those UK acts 0:30:42.320 --> 0:30:44.240 stick around here and those that haven't. 0:30:51.720 --> 0:30:54.040 Okay, how did you end up at Columbia and what 0:30:54.120 --> 0:30:55.200 was that experience like? 0:30:56.240 --> 0:30:59.200 So? I was brought to Columbia by a great friend 0:30:59.280 --> 0:31:03.760 named John who was formerly an Electra. He was the 0:31:03.920 --> 0:31:07.520 VP of artist development there and he was looking to 0:31:08.280 --> 0:31:12.320 change up the way they market alternative music. Donnie Ironer 0:31:12.360 --> 0:31:15.280 was the president. We had a great team there. I 0:31:15.360 --> 0:31:18.440 worked with some real characters, Jerry Blair, Charlie Walk. It 0:31:18.480 --> 0:31:21.400 was a lot of fun being there, and I worked 0:31:21.440 --> 0:31:23.760 with possibly the greatest artist I ever worked with in 0:31:23.760 --> 0:31:26.080 my career. And I was lucky enough to work at 0:31:26.080 --> 0:31:30.600 Columbia with Jeff Buckley. And Jeff Buckley is was so 0:31:30.880 --> 0:31:34.760 brilliant and so talented and and so troubled. I mean 0:31:34.800 --> 0:31:37.120 he was you know, when you met him, you knew 0:31:37.160 --> 0:31:40.800 he was. There was an inherent sadness or something that 0:31:41.040 --> 0:31:43.440 just was eating at him. And I think that's part 0:31:43.480 --> 0:31:46.920 of that was part of his success. But Columbia was 0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:50.240 was the major leagues. It was. It was a hard 0:31:50.280 --> 0:31:55.360 place to work. Donnie was brilliant, but relentless and really 0:31:55.400 --> 0:31:58.720 tough and He pushed us really hard. And you know, 0:31:58.960 --> 0:32:02.080 when you went to that lake and they're working major 0:32:02.120 --> 0:32:07.440 stars like Aerosmith and Springsteen and Mariah, there was no 0:32:08.000 --> 0:32:10.720 patience or tolerance for anything less than hitting a home 0:32:10.800 --> 0:32:13.680 run on everything he did. And it was hard, it 0:32:13.720 --> 0:32:15.560 was high pressure. But I got a lot out of 0:32:15.560 --> 0:32:20.000 being there. I learned a ton and the fact that 0:32:20.080 --> 0:32:22.960 I was able to work with Jeff Buckley changed my life. 0:32:23.040 --> 0:32:25.280 I mean, that is something that I don't I don't 0:32:25.320 --> 0:32:28.680 think enough artists study or know who he is. And 0:32:29.360 --> 0:32:33.080 I think the sad circumstance of his death and the 0:32:33.120 --> 0:32:35.640 shortness of his career, he just he isn't on a 0:32:35.680 --> 0:32:39.880 lot of people's radars. And I don't know what with 0:32:40.000 --> 0:32:42.440 your experience with Jeff Buckley, like we were able. 0:32:42.680 --> 0:32:45.840 I was a fan of the father the album Happy Said. 0:32:45.920 --> 0:32:48.200 I mean, Tim Buckley started out on one of Frank 0:32:48.320 --> 0:32:51.520 Zappa's labels. He'd a lot of different things. But the 0:32:51.520 --> 0:32:55.160 fact that his son, who really didn't grow up with him, 0:32:55.480 --> 0:32:58.440 you know, I guess I'm not young enough to feel 0:32:58.440 --> 0:33:02.440 that he's forgotten, because it still comes up in conversation 0:33:02.600 --> 0:33:08.240 with people who were aware in that era. But staying 0:33:08.320 --> 0:33:12.479 with this how big a step was it emotionally and 0:33:12.520 --> 0:33:15.200 how difficult or easy was it to jump to go 0:33:15.240 --> 0:33:16.080 to work with Rob. 0:33:18.120 --> 0:33:22.120 It's surprisingly it was easy. A lot of people said 0:33:22.160 --> 0:33:24.640 that Rob and I were crazy. We were making really 0:33:24.640 --> 0:33:27.840 good livings. We were in our mid twenties, doing really well, 0:33:28.440 --> 0:33:31.800 on a really good path in the corporate music industry, 0:33:31.840 --> 0:33:34.400 and a lot of our mentors and people said, hey, 0:33:34.400 --> 0:33:36.360 you guys got to think through this, because you really 0:33:36.360 --> 0:33:41.680 are both on a great track. And Rob stepped out first, 0:33:41.800 --> 0:33:44.320 was doing well, not blowing it out to the point 0:33:44.320 --> 0:33:47.000 where I was going to make the same living joining 0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:50.760 him that I was at Columbia, and I had just 0:33:50.840 --> 0:33:53.600 had a kid, so I had it added responsibility and 0:33:54.640 --> 0:33:56.800 I had to make sure that I was making a move. 0:33:56.840 --> 0:33:59.280 But both of us had this mentality that if it 0:33:59.320 --> 0:34:01.840 didn't work out out, we were good at our jobs, 0:34:01.880 --> 0:34:05.160 we probably would be able to step back in and 0:34:05.200 --> 0:34:08.200 get a job in the corporate record industry again. And 0:34:08.239 --> 0:34:11.680 I also didn't, you know, love working for anyone. I mean, 0:34:12.120 --> 0:34:14.600 Donnie was a hard driving guy, Daniel was a hard 0:34:14.680 --> 0:34:16.560 driving guy, and I think they both taught me well, 0:34:16.600 --> 0:34:19.120 and I'm grateful for the time I had with them, 0:34:19.120 --> 0:34:21.399 But They both made me realize, like, wow, I want 0:34:21.400 --> 0:34:23.600 to be my own boss. I want to call the shots, 0:34:23.600 --> 0:34:25.799 and there are very few people on our industry that 0:34:25.840 --> 0:34:28.200 will put their money where their mouth is. And Rob 0:34:28.200 --> 0:34:31.040 and I both did that and we never looked back. 0:34:31.040 --> 0:34:34.840 We got lucky, but our mentality was if this fails, 0:34:35.160 --> 0:34:38.200 we are both good at what we do, we'll find 0:34:38.239 --> 0:34:40.960 our way back in. I was I think I was 0:34:41.200 --> 0:34:44.840 twenty six or twenty seven when Rob and I partnered up. 0:34:44.880 --> 0:34:47.719 He was twenty six when he broke out of Arista 0:34:47.920 --> 0:34:50.120 or twenty maybe we were twenty five and twenty six. 0:34:50.160 --> 0:34:52.719 I don't remember exactly, but somewhere in that range. So 0:34:53.000 --> 0:34:55.160 you know, I was lucky to start early in the 0:34:55.200 --> 0:34:58.880 record industry. I was eighteen or nineteen when I started, 0:34:59.400 --> 0:35:02.319 you know, doing all that college work, and I had 0:35:02.400 --> 0:35:04.239 spent a lot of time there, so I had some 0:35:04.320 --> 0:35:07.719 good relationships to build our business on. It wasn't like 0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:10.879 I was a year into a career. I was still young, 0:35:10.960 --> 0:35:13.640 but I had spent so much time that we had 0:35:13.680 --> 0:35:16.120 a good base to start the business. 0:35:16.520 --> 0:35:20.280 Okay, tell me about getting married and having a kid, 0:35:21.080 --> 0:35:24.520 because you have another person involved in your married who 0:35:24.560 --> 0:35:27.160 may or may not agree with your choices. Support you. 0:35:27.320 --> 0:35:30.080 This is a twenty four to seven business. You get 0:35:30.120 --> 0:35:32.879 a kid, you have to bring in the money. Tell 0:35:32.920 --> 0:35:34.560 me about all that. 0:35:34.560 --> 0:35:37.960 That was a lot of pressure. The amazing thing is 0:35:38.120 --> 0:35:41.960 I have an incredible wife, Aaron Cohen, and I met 0:35:42.000 --> 0:35:45.320 her at SBKA Records. She was Daniel Glasses as Distant 0:35:46.080 --> 0:35:50.200 and I met her when she first started there. I 0:35:50.280 --> 0:35:52.960 knew I was going to marry her. I just you know. 0:35:53.000 --> 0:35:57.200 We had this incredible friendship and relationship at work, and 0:35:57.239 --> 0:36:00.919 the best part of my job was I Hadtone at 0:36:00.920 --> 0:36:03.360 one end of the hall, my best friend in the world, 0:36:03.520 --> 0:36:05.319 and on the other end of the hall, I had 0:36:05.320 --> 0:36:07.640 the woman that I was going to marry, and it 0:36:07.680 --> 0:36:10.560 was a great time to have those two people there 0:36:10.560 --> 0:36:13.960 on a personal level. Coming up in this exciting time 0:36:14.000 --> 0:36:16.560 in the music industry was incredible. And I think one 0:36:16.560 --> 0:36:19.920 of the things that really helped me start my business 0:36:19.920 --> 0:36:22.399 and have the confidence is I had a wife who 0:36:22.520 --> 0:36:26.240 came from the business and had a really good understanding 0:36:26.400 --> 0:36:30.440 and she was very supportive. She was totally calm and 0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:33.680 chill about what I was doing. And I think the 0:36:33.800 --> 0:36:37.040 fact that she put in some time in our business 0:36:37.400 --> 0:36:40.840 gave her an understanding that this was going to be okay. 0:36:41.080 --> 0:36:45.359 And here we are twenty eight, twenty nine years into Cornerstone, 0:36:45.480 --> 0:36:50.080 let alone my career. She has this amazing patience and 0:36:50.239 --> 0:36:52.920 respect and love for what I do. You know, she 0:36:52.920 --> 0:36:55.840 she'll come on the road with me. You know, she'll 0:36:55.880 --> 0:37:00.120 come to festival. She's she's not deep in it. She 0:37:00.120 --> 0:37:02.600 she definitely only goes to what she likes. But she 0:37:02.719 --> 0:37:05.920 has this understanding and respect and that gave me the 0:37:05.960 --> 0:37:08.800 confidence that I can do it. But there was pressure. 0:37:08.840 --> 0:37:10.919 I mean when you have a newborn. I got married 0:37:11.040 --> 0:37:13.239 very young. I got married at twenty four years old, 0:37:13.880 --> 0:37:16.680 and you know it wasn't a new relationship. But having 0:37:16.719 --> 0:37:19.680 a new kid changes everything. And you know this, Bob, 0:37:19.719 --> 0:37:22.600 I mean, you our business. You're out late at night, 0:37:22.640 --> 0:37:24.840 and if you're if you're not out and you're not 0:37:24.960 --> 0:37:27.799 in the scene, you are out of mind. You are 0:37:27.840 --> 0:37:30.040 not in the mix. So the hardest part, and this 0:37:30.160 --> 0:37:32.279 is why I love my kids so much, is that 0:37:32.880 --> 0:37:35.720 I wasn't around as much as a young father. Because 0:37:35.760 --> 0:37:37.680 here I am in my early twenties. I had my 0:37:37.719 --> 0:37:40.360 son when I was like thirty, I think, or my 0:37:40.800 --> 0:37:44.880 late twenties, and I am on the road I'm not around. 0:37:45.000 --> 0:37:46.880 I have to go visit clients. I have to go 0:37:46.960 --> 0:37:51.359 visit you know, artists. I am traveling, you know, to festivals. 0:37:51.520 --> 0:37:55.040 And to my kid's credit, they I made up for 0:37:55.080 --> 0:37:57.239 it as they got older and they learned to appreciate 0:37:57.280 --> 0:37:59.560 what I did. And we're a very tight knit family. 0:37:59.800 --> 0:38:03.200 And they had a real patience for me, because you're 0:38:03.400 --> 0:38:05.479 trying to be a parent and do all the hard 0:38:05.520 --> 0:38:08.360 things of parenthood, but you're also trying to be committed 0:38:08.360 --> 0:38:12.800 to your business, and it's a very delicate balance, especially 0:38:12.880 --> 0:38:16.839 as a young parent. And hopefully, you know, it all 0:38:16.880 --> 0:38:20.600 worked out the way it should have, and they seem 0:38:20.719 --> 0:38:22.680 like great kids and they're happy, and they have such 0:38:22.719 --> 0:38:25.840 love for what I do. And my son actually works 0:38:25.840 --> 0:38:27.960 in the music industry. He works for an agency called 0:38:27.960 --> 0:38:30.759 well Or Media Agency where he does he helps run 0:38:30.800 --> 0:38:33.799 live nations, TikTok and does a lot of social media 0:38:33.840 --> 0:38:36.319 work within the business, so he has an appreciation for it. 0:38:36.400 --> 0:38:39.920 And my daughter works for the Infatuation, which is the 0:38:40.000 --> 0:38:45.600 food and restaurant, you know, content business, and you know 0:38:45.640 --> 0:38:47.680 they've done really well, but you know, it was a 0:38:47.719 --> 0:38:51.239 really big decision in terms of family and knowing that 0:38:51.320 --> 0:38:53.640 I wasn't going to be able to be around quite 0:38:53.680 --> 0:38:55.680 as much as your typical parent. 0:38:56.600 --> 0:39:00.200 Okay, what year do you go to work with Rob been? 0:39:00.320 --> 0:39:01.680 How old are you exactly? 0:39:01.719 --> 0:39:02.040 Then? 0:39:02.719 --> 0:39:06.319 I think, if I'm remembering it correct, Rob stepped out 0:39:06.360 --> 0:39:12.120 in June of ninety six. I resigned that September and 0:39:12.280 --> 0:39:15.399 told them, hey, guys, I'm not going to renew my deal, 0:39:15.800 --> 0:39:18.759 but I will stay here as long as you'd like. 0:39:20.520 --> 0:39:23.879 So I told whoever, Jim Burris, I think I'm what 0:39:23.920 --> 0:39:28.120 I told. And I three days later, I get a 0:39:28.160 --> 0:39:31.680 call on a Sunday, We're going to send all your 0:39:31.719 --> 0:39:34.879 stuff home. You don't need to come into work. And 0:39:35.000 --> 0:39:37.880 they basically paid me out of my deal and just 0:39:38.440 --> 0:39:40.680 you know, honored the deal and let me go. And 0:39:40.680 --> 0:39:44.360 then Rob and I joined forces sometime in early ninety seven. 0:39:44.880 --> 0:39:48.799 I believe I was twenty seven years old at the time. 0:39:48.960 --> 0:39:54.840 Okay, when you go to work with Rob, what is 0:39:54.880 --> 0:39:57.080 he doing? And what's the first thing you do? 0:39:58.320 --> 0:40:03.480 So Rob is already working a lot of hip hop records. 0:40:03.520 --> 0:40:07.440 He's getting hired directly by labels to help the marketing 0:40:07.480 --> 0:40:11.880 of hip hop records. I am starting a companion business 0:40:12.040 --> 0:40:15.160 in the alternative space. So my job is to get 0:40:15.600 --> 0:40:19.680 all the major labels, the independent labels, the managers to realize, hey, 0:40:19.719 --> 0:40:23.200 we are a resource to hire us one of the 0:40:23.200 --> 0:40:25.480 first records. I think I got it. I don't remember 0:40:25.640 --> 0:40:27.840 all the timelines on this stuff, so don't hold me 0:40:27.920 --> 0:40:30.279 to all the specifics. It's a little big, but like 0:40:30.480 --> 0:40:33.640 I remember Jeff quant It's calling me and saying, I 0:40:33.719 --> 0:40:36.160 have this new band, Limp Biscuit, I want you to 0:40:36.200 --> 0:40:39.279 hear it, and he played me Limp Biscuits, like, I 0:40:39.280 --> 0:40:41.160 want to hire you to help us break this band, 0:40:41.239 --> 0:40:45.640 Limp Biscuit. I remember Silva getting me involved in Beck Records. 0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:48.360 I remember, you know, a lot of label people like 0:40:48.440 --> 0:40:51.239 friends like Ross Apen hiring us for whatever Geffen was 0:40:51.280 --> 0:40:54.880 working at the time, even Columbia. I mean, you know, 0:40:54.880 --> 0:40:56.960 I ended up working for a lot of labels that 0:40:57.000 --> 0:40:59.520 I was with, and we had a lot of success. 0:40:59.640 --> 0:41:01.919 I mean they wanted to hear not just They didn't 0:41:01.920 --> 0:41:05.240 want just our relationships to help get people to support 0:41:05.280 --> 0:41:08.080 their music. They wanted our opinion. How should we roll 0:41:08.120 --> 0:41:11.319 this out? What do you think of this single? And 0:41:11.440 --> 0:41:14.040 so Rob was building the hip hop side, I'm building 0:41:14.120 --> 0:41:18.520 the alternative side. And then together we are brainstorming, Okay, 0:41:18.520 --> 0:41:21.520 what tools can we create? How do we build some 0:41:21.719 --> 0:41:25.840 new ways of marketing music. So we started the Cornerstone Mixtape. 0:41:25.880 --> 0:41:28.160 Then we started what was called the Cornerstone Player. These 0:41:28.200 --> 0:41:31.919 were compilations where obviously we live in a streaming world, 0:41:32.000 --> 0:41:34.520 they're kind of irrelevant, but there were compilations where we 0:41:34.520 --> 0:41:39.560 would get big name DJs to mix the best current music. 0:41:39.680 --> 0:41:42.440 So we would get a young Mark Ronson, for example, 0:41:42.480 --> 0:41:45.080 who we were friends with, who was a great, smart, 0:41:45.120 --> 0:41:48.560 young kid New York DJ, and we would get him 0:41:48.600 --> 0:41:51.160 to do a mix of whatever current songs. Or one 0:41:51.160 --> 0:41:53.360 time we did a jay Z mixtape with Mark Ronson, 0:41:53.400 --> 0:41:55.200 which I think you could find on eBay for like 0:41:55.239 --> 0:41:59.400 a thousand dollars, where we would have Ronson great this compilation. 0:41:59.560 --> 0:42:02.640 We'd get the rights from the labels to say, hey, 0:42:02.680 --> 0:42:05.200 we can do it. We eventually even started selling those 0:42:05.239 --> 0:42:08.000 opportunities for the labels to put music on these, and 0:42:08.080 --> 0:42:11.400 we would send that mixtape out to like five thousand 0:42:11.400 --> 0:42:17.759 people and every major DJ, hotel manager, restaurant gatekeeper that 0:42:17.800 --> 0:42:20.080 could break music. We would want them to have our 0:42:20.160 --> 0:42:23.960 mixtapes so they can hear what's next in music. On 0:42:24.000 --> 0:42:27.160 the Alternative mixtape. One of the first songs that we 0:42:27.239 --> 0:42:29.040 really broke that we were a big part of was 0:42:29.080 --> 0:42:33.359 Coldplay Yellow. You know, like where Kevin Weatherley or Mark 0:42:33.400 --> 0:42:37.160 Hamilton in Portland would hear some of the music on 0:42:37.440 --> 0:42:40.640 our different mixtapes as a way to turn them onto 0:42:40.640 --> 0:42:42.480 what was next, and then we would get a call 0:42:42.760 --> 0:42:44.720 and say, hey, tell me a little bit about this band, 0:42:44.760 --> 0:42:46.839 and if we were working the record, we would help. 0:42:46.880 --> 0:42:48.640 If not, we would connect them to the label so 0:42:48.680 --> 0:42:51.560 they can get more information about what was on those mixtapes. 0:42:52.080 --> 0:42:56.560 Okay, when you started, were you beating the bushes or 0:42:57.320 --> 0:43:00.319 was it very soon people were calling you? And how 0:43:00.360 --> 0:43:02.239 did you establish what the price was? 0:43:03.640 --> 0:43:08.000 So we were charging a flat fee per project. We 0:43:08.560 --> 0:43:13.080 set our pricing very expensive because our goal was we 0:43:13.120 --> 0:43:15.960 didn't want to be like some of the other promotion 0:43:16.160 --> 0:43:19.239 entities out there. We wanted to work for a handful 0:43:19.440 --> 0:43:22.400 of the best artists and labels like we wanted to. 0:43:22.600 --> 0:43:26.560 We said no to a lot of projects and we 0:43:26.560 --> 0:43:29.080 were beating the bush just to introduce what we were doing. 0:43:29.120 --> 0:43:31.600 But we had so many relationships and people we knew 0:43:32.040 --> 0:43:34.359 that that came kind of easy. And then then it 0:43:34.440 --> 0:43:37.160 was a lot of what's beautiful about our business. It 0:43:37.360 --> 0:43:40.160 just became very inbound. We didn't have to chase people, 0:43:40.800 --> 0:43:43.400 and Rob and I had the mentality that we wanted 0:43:43.440 --> 0:43:46.880 to be expensive, and we wanted to work just a 0:43:46.920 --> 0:43:50.320 handful of projects at a time, and we wanted to 0:43:50.360 --> 0:43:52.440 be involved for the long haul. We didn't want to 0:43:52.520 --> 0:43:56.840 keep plugging and playing like if someone committed to a project. 0:43:56.920 --> 0:44:01.040 If RCA wanted us to work this new bands, we 0:44:01.080 --> 0:44:02.759 wanted to know that we were going to be a 0:44:02.800 --> 0:44:05.720 part of what they were doing to break food Fighters 0:44:05.719 --> 0:44:07.799 for the long haul. So we would get hired by 0:44:08.520 --> 0:44:11.000 Dave Gottlieb, who was the marketing person at the time, 0:44:11.080 --> 0:44:13.439 and Ron Forr who was the promotion person at the time, 0:44:13.560 --> 0:44:16.560 and Silva who was managing at the time. We'd be 0:44:16.719 --> 0:44:19.600 working for all of those entities, and they'd be talking 0:44:19.680 --> 0:44:22.560 us to us directly because they would want to know 0:44:22.640 --> 0:44:25.799 the pulse of what we were getting back. And then 0:44:25.840 --> 0:44:28.759 our job was to fill in the blanks and help 0:44:28.800 --> 0:44:31.160 the label do all the things that they were already 0:44:31.160 --> 0:44:35.000 doing and anything that they weren't doing. So it was 0:44:35.160 --> 0:44:37.880 can you help us get on the radio? Who would MTV? 0:44:38.000 --> 0:44:40.160 Do you know? Can you help us with can you 0:44:40.200 --> 0:44:43.120 get in Lewis Largency here about this. Can you talk 0:44:43.160 --> 0:44:45.480 to this? You know, who do you have in the 0:44:45.520 --> 0:44:48.360 field that can talk to whatever retail they have managers 0:44:48.440 --> 0:44:51.080 with are their DJs that can support this? That That 0:44:51.200 --> 0:44:53.359 was the way. You know, That's something Daniel taught us 0:44:53.400 --> 0:44:57.239 really well, is that you know, artists broke from so 0:44:57.360 --> 0:45:01.080 many different directions. Even though I comment on having mass 0:45:01.160 --> 0:45:04.240 drivers in the industry, and this is still true today 0:45:04.360 --> 0:45:08.920 in today's business, is that artist development is the amalgamation. 0:45:09.160 --> 0:45:11.960 It's the total of a lot of little arts. And 0:45:11.960 --> 0:45:14.000 that's what I think Rob and I really excelled at 0:45:14.040 --> 0:45:17.680 is we built the system of smart young people that 0:45:17.840 --> 0:45:20.480 had their ear to the ground, that were plugged in 0:45:20.600 --> 0:45:22.759 and we knew Rob and I had the relationships on 0:45:22.800 --> 0:45:25.000 the math level. But then we had all these kids 0:45:25.040 --> 0:45:27.520 around the country, around the world for that matter, that 0:45:27.680 --> 0:45:30.680 knew who the cool kids were that could turn the 0:45:30.760 --> 0:45:33.799 right people onto music. And I think that's why we 0:45:33.800 --> 0:45:36.759 were successful in the early days of the promotion and 0:45:36.880 --> 0:45:42.200 marketing business. 0:45:45.320 --> 0:45:49.840 Okay, you said you were expensive, what was the price? 0:45:50.239 --> 0:45:52.200 And you talk about all these people in the field, 0:45:52.239 --> 0:45:55.320 were they on the payroll? And how many people were working. 0:45:56.080 --> 0:45:59.640 So at that time, maybe we had ten people in 0:45:59.680 --> 0:46:02.520 the company and I want to guess, and we had 0:46:02.520 --> 0:46:05.560 a mixture department, a bunch of guys that just called 0:46:05.680 --> 0:46:08.800 DJs all day long, and they would just ask DJs 0:46:08.800 --> 0:46:10.360 what they like, what they're listening to, Hey, could you 0:46:10.400 --> 0:46:13.400 listen to this? Could check this out? We had college reps. 0:46:13.520 --> 0:46:16.799 So once we started Fader, which was in nineteen ninety nine, 0:46:17.280 --> 0:46:21.920 to distribute Fader, we couldn't get magazine distribution. We had 0:46:21.960 --> 0:46:25.120 no fucking clue what we were doing in the media business. 0:46:25.120 --> 0:46:28.120 So we built our own infrastructure and to market Fader. 0:46:28.560 --> 0:46:31.040 We built what we called the farm team, and these 0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:34.600 are college reps. In every campus. We would hire one 0:46:34.680 --> 0:46:38.080 or two kids at Columbus Ohio, a kid at NYU, 0:46:38.239 --> 0:46:41.080 a kid at Syracuse, a kid in Michigan, a kid 0:46:41.080 --> 0:46:44.200 in la and they would just give the Fader away 0:46:44.239 --> 0:46:46.080 for free. You know, if they could get us on 0:46:46.120 --> 0:46:48.640 a newstand, that would sell it great. But they're Our 0:46:48.719 --> 0:46:50.440 mission to them was, We're going to send you one 0:46:50.480 --> 0:46:53.279 hundred copies of Fader. Make sure one hundred of the 0:46:53.320 --> 0:46:56.560 coolest people in that city get a copy of it. 0:46:56.920 --> 0:46:59.799 And we started hiring those kids to do all the 0:46:59.800 --> 0:47:02.080 more marketing in the field. They would hang up posters, 0:47:02.320 --> 0:47:05.600 would they would give out twelve inches to local DJs. 0:47:05.719 --> 0:47:10.920 They would drive the right people to see the artists 0:47:11.000 --> 0:47:13.800 at early on, so they would know the local radio, 0:47:13.880 --> 0:47:18.080 the local press, the freelance writers. Eventually, over time we 0:47:18.120 --> 0:47:20.560 started moving into digital direction, so they would know all 0:47:20.560 --> 0:47:23.000 the people that were doing the right things online. Years later, 0:47:23.400 --> 0:47:26.360 but we basically were a full service artist development company, 0:47:26.560 --> 0:47:31.360 and we would charge anywhere from ten grand to twenty 0:47:31.360 --> 0:47:34.120 five thousand dollars a month, pending how many of those 0:47:34.160 --> 0:47:36.760 services you wanted and what kind of tools we were making, 0:47:36.800 --> 0:47:41.920 and it started becoming really successful. But the key transition 0:47:42.480 --> 0:47:46.439 is when the brand started calling us. Then that's when 0:47:46.760 --> 0:47:50.120 everything switched, because then we could be really selective and 0:47:50.160 --> 0:47:53.080 only pick the best of the best music and put 0:47:53.120 --> 0:47:55.440 our focus on working some of the brand projects. 0:47:55.800 --> 0:47:58.720 What came first, the brands are the Faeder. 0:48:00.000 --> 0:48:04.239 The brand stuff came first before or maybe just as 0:48:04.239 --> 0:48:08.040 we're starting Fader. So companies started ninety six, you know, 0:48:08.040 --> 0:48:11.160 I would say the first brand stuff started coming in 0:48:11.280 --> 0:48:14.360 ninety eight, and then we started Fader in ninety nine, 0:48:14.719 --> 0:48:18.880 and Coca Cola was the first big breakthrough on the 0:48:18.920 --> 0:48:22.360 brand side. A few years later, we got to we 0:48:22.440 --> 0:48:27.480 signed these crazy NDAs from a company called Microsoft, and 0:48:27.600 --> 0:48:30.319 we were worried, like, these MDAs are crazy, what the 0:48:30.360 --> 0:48:33.880 hell is this? And they made us fly out to 0:48:33.960 --> 0:48:37.680 meet with them, and they told us about this secret 0:48:37.760 --> 0:48:41.240 note new video game system called Xbox they were launching, 0:48:41.280 --> 0:48:44.920 and they needed an agency to really help use music 0:48:45.000 --> 0:48:49.919 in college campuses to help establish it. They then came 0:48:50.000 --> 0:48:53.279 to our offices. They realized that our whole company was 0:48:53.560 --> 0:48:56.719 operating on Max, and they were appalled that we were 0:48:56.760 --> 0:48:59.120 willing to take on the business. And they said, hey, 0:48:59.160 --> 0:49:00.960 we're going to pay for this, but we need you 0:49:01.000 --> 0:49:03.640 all to switch to MAX. And Rob and I said, 0:49:03.800 --> 0:49:06.560 switched to switch to Windows. I'm sorry, switch switch to 0:49:06.560 --> 0:49:09.279 Windows computers. And Rob and I said that's a non starter. Me. 0:49:09.480 --> 0:49:13.480 Rob and Anthony, our CEO, said, hey, we want your business. 0:49:13.520 --> 0:49:16.200 We are so excited about this video game system. I 0:49:16.239 --> 0:49:18.440 don't even know if it was called Xbox, yet we 0:49:18.520 --> 0:49:20.400 want to be in business with you. We're not willing 0:49:20.480 --> 0:49:25.000 to change from you know, our MAX setup, which is 0:49:25.040 --> 0:49:27.320 so key and inherent's our business. So we said no, 0:49:27.440 --> 0:49:30.319 we call their bluff, and thankfully they still hired us 0:49:30.480 --> 0:49:33.560 and uh, but yeah. So that's how the brand stuff 0:49:33.640 --> 0:49:37.120 started evolving. And then you know, we were doing Nike work. 0:49:37.200 --> 0:49:38.760 Nike started discovering what we're. 0:49:38.719 --> 0:49:40.439 Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait 0:49:40.480 --> 0:49:43.759 a little bit slower. The first is Sprite, which is 0:49:43.760 --> 0:49:46.480 a Coca Cola brand. You go for the meeting, go 0:49:46.560 --> 0:49:50.840 for the meeting in Atlanta. What is the ultimate agreement? 0:49:51.040 --> 0:49:51.920 Ultimate work? 0:49:53.360 --> 0:49:58.400 The ultimate work is that they were building some campaigns 0:49:58.560 --> 0:50:02.880 around right connected to hip hop. They had already done 0:50:02.920 --> 0:50:06.360 something with five call quests that they were on the 0:50:06.440 --> 0:50:08.840 right track, and they're like, we want to go bigger, 0:50:09.280 --> 0:50:11.520 So they hired us to build this campaign. It was 0:50:11.560 --> 0:50:16.480 called five Deadly Women, where they were using the culture 0:50:16.719 --> 0:50:22.280 of martial arts and hip hop and we help them decide, Okay, 0:50:22.400 --> 0:50:25.560 these are the radio stations and the media platforms where 0:50:25.600 --> 0:50:27.560 we think you should spend your money. These are the 0:50:28.200 --> 0:50:32.360 artists that you should lean towards. These are the different 0:50:32.400 --> 0:50:34.720 ways to market this. So they hired us to consult 0:50:34.760 --> 0:50:39.440 them and it was exploded. It was really successful. It 0:50:39.560 --> 0:50:42.919 led to us getting hired for this new energy drink 0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:45.560 they were launching. They eventually hired us to work on 0:50:45.960 --> 0:50:50.200 Coke Base brand, so it went from that one consulting 0:50:50.239 --> 0:50:52.920 project to really working across the portfolio. And here we 0:50:52.960 --> 0:50:55.760 are twenty eight years later, we're still work or twenty 0:50:55.800 --> 0:50:58.280 six years later. Since then we're working for coke stuff. 0:50:58.719 --> 0:51:02.480 Okay, so first come Coke. What is the next brand 0:51:02.520 --> 0:51:04.399 and how do they come to you when you come 0:51:04.400 --> 0:51:05.120 to them? 0:51:05.560 --> 0:51:10.600 I think the next brand was this internet startup called 0:51:10.800 --> 0:51:12.759 Boo dot Com. I don't know if you remember this. 0:51:12.960 --> 0:51:17.120 It was like the first big internet retailer that was 0:51:17.160 --> 0:51:19.920 a total bus but they spent like so many millions 0:51:19.960 --> 0:51:23.040 of dollars. They hired us to consult on that launch. 0:51:23.840 --> 0:51:27.080 From there, Nike hit us up. We started doing work. 0:51:26.960 --> 0:51:29.200 For Okay, you're sitting in the office, you get an 0:51:29.200 --> 0:51:31.480 email or a phone call. Hey, we're Nike, would like to. 0:51:31.440 --> 0:51:38.239 Meet We We had started Fader and we actually this 0:51:38.400 --> 0:51:40.719 was Rob the idea. It was brilliant. We had no 0:51:40.840 --> 0:51:44.640 advertisers in the first couple issues of Fader, and Rob's like, 0:51:44.680 --> 0:51:48.160 we've got to show that we have something going on. 0:51:48.440 --> 0:51:52.040 We can't just put this magazine out without anything. And 0:51:52.280 --> 0:51:57.279 we started cop photo copying and putting Nike ads in 0:51:57.360 --> 0:52:00.560 our magazine and Nike's agency winding case and he said, Hey, 0:52:00.600 --> 0:52:03.319 what the fuck, like, who told who said to run 0:52:03.360 --> 0:52:06.520 this ad? Where did this ad come from? And we 0:52:06.600 --> 0:52:09.160 kind of played dumb, and they knew that we were 0:52:09.200 --> 0:52:11.640 taking ads, and we did that because we wanted to 0:52:11.680 --> 0:52:15.200 show that Fader had some muscle and it was making 0:52:15.200 --> 0:52:17.960 an impact. And the Nike people actually called us and 0:52:17.960 --> 0:52:21.440 they reached out and we got a meeting with Nike 0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:23.960 because they thought that they liked what they saw on Fader. 0:52:24.440 --> 0:52:26.440 They thought it was a ball the interesting move that 0:52:26.480 --> 0:52:29.040 we wanted to do it, and that led to us 0:52:29.080 --> 0:52:32.359 having some early meetings and conversations with Nike and we 0:52:32.520 --> 0:52:36.040 started doing some work for Nike Basketball. It eventually led 0:52:36.080 --> 0:52:39.880 to us doing a campaign a few years later that 0:52:40.040 --> 0:52:43.120 celebrated the twenty fifth anniversary of Air Force one. Air 0:52:43.160 --> 0:52:47.480 Force one is Nike's iconic sneaker, and they put us 0:52:47.520 --> 0:52:51.279 in a pitch where it was Cornerstone and Fader. We 0:52:51.520 --> 0:52:55.000 consider ourselves one entity for that versus Widening, Kennedy and 0:52:55.040 --> 0:52:58.000 all these other big agencies. And they briefed us, they say, 0:52:58.040 --> 0:53:00.839 it's the twenty fifth anniversary of Air Force one. We 0:53:00.880 --> 0:53:03.920 want to make history. We want to do something non traditional. 0:53:04.040 --> 0:53:07.200 Here are the parameters here's the rough budget perimeters. And 0:53:07.280 --> 0:53:10.839 our idea was, don't do an advertising campaign, Let's make 0:53:10.880 --> 0:53:15.279 an original song. And we went to Rick Rubin. I 0:53:15.360 --> 0:53:18.800 called Rick, who we had covered in Fader, and luckily 0:53:18.880 --> 0:53:21.000 he was cool and always was a bit of a 0:53:21.040 --> 0:53:24.440 friend and listened to me. Rick Rick signed on to 0:53:24.600 --> 0:53:28.840 produce a Air Force one twenty fifth anniversary track. Kanye 0:53:28.960 --> 0:53:31.600 was the lead artist. We got Kanye on board, we 0:53:31.680 --> 0:53:36.560 got KRS one, we got rock Kim, and then we 0:53:36.600 --> 0:53:40.080 got Nas and we had the four of those artists 0:53:40.080 --> 0:53:44.280 on a Rick Rubin produced track. The budgets were enormous 0:53:44.280 --> 0:53:46.200 bomb I don't even remember the money. So we were 0:53:46.239 --> 0:53:50.120 able to entice all these legends because we had good money. 0:53:50.400 --> 0:53:52.080 They also had a lot of faith because they knew 0:53:52.160 --> 0:53:55.400 us from the hip hop space, they knew us from 0:53:55.440 --> 0:53:59.919 the years in the music industry. And Rick co wrote 0:53:59.920 --> 0:54:04.799 the song with Kanye. They produced an incredible track. I'll 0:54:04.840 --> 0:54:06.960 send you the link when we're done later so you 0:54:06.960 --> 0:54:11.040 can check it out. And we got DJ Premier from 0:54:11.120 --> 0:54:15.080 Gang Starter do a remix. And then we built a 0:54:15.239 --> 0:54:18.720 video and a whole platform around this campaign for Nike, 0:54:19.280 --> 0:54:22.200 and instead of it being a TV commercial to celebrate 0:54:22.280 --> 0:54:25.040 the twenty fifth anniversary of Air Force one. It was 0:54:25.080 --> 0:54:28.680 a song that had a whole marketing campaign around the sneaker. 0:54:28.719 --> 0:54:30.799 We did an event in New York City. Not only 0:54:30.800 --> 0:54:33.759 did all the artists come and perform, but Nike invited 0:54:33.960 --> 0:54:36.480 every one of their marquee athletes that we worked with 0:54:36.520 --> 0:54:41.760 them to produce. And the earned media and the viral 0:54:41.840 --> 0:54:44.520 nature of the song was so much more impactful than 0:54:44.560 --> 0:54:48.719 any paid media that they could buy, and it was 0:54:48.760 --> 0:54:52.960 an enormous success, and the pinnacle was we decided to 0:54:53.000 --> 0:54:55.400 work with them to submit the song to the Grammys 0:54:55.440 --> 0:54:58.000 and everyone's like, Ah, you're crazy, this will never do anything. 0:54:58.080 --> 0:55:02.040 And it was the first time a brand campaign ever 0:55:02.120 --> 0:55:04.840 got a Grammy nomination. And it didn't win, but it 0:55:04.880 --> 0:55:09.600 was nominated for Best Hip Hop Performance that year. I 0:55:09.600 --> 0:55:13.359 think it lost to another Kanye record, ironically, but it 0:55:13.400 --> 0:55:16.680 was an example of the type of evolution of our 0:55:16.719 --> 0:55:20.560 business and the way we could use our roots in 0:55:20.719 --> 0:55:24.240 music and our creativity to do things outside of music 0:55:24.600 --> 0:55:28.400 to help brand really make history. And from those moments, 0:55:28.440 --> 0:55:30.600 like those early moments, we were off to the races. 0:55:30.680 --> 0:55:34.000 The floodgates open. Then a lot of people started wanting 0:55:34.040 --> 0:55:38.239 to hear ideas and we started shedding the music work. 0:55:38.320 --> 0:55:39.920 We said, you know what, we don't need to be 0:55:40.000 --> 0:55:43.720 a hired hand for music. Let's focus solely on using 0:55:44.280 --> 0:55:48.160 our brand relationships and budgets and platform to do good 0:55:48.239 --> 0:55:51.640 for music, to do really good creative things with artists. 0:55:51.680 --> 0:55:55.080 And that's when the agency business really transformed to become 0:55:55.120 --> 0:55:57.040 more of a full service ad agency. 0:55:58.320 --> 0:56:04.360 Okay, what is the status of the agency today? 0:56:05.120 --> 0:56:10.440 Agency is still going strong. The agency business has changed 0:56:10.520 --> 0:56:14.400 quite a bit. Major League Soccer and one of our 0:56:14.400 --> 0:56:17.040 biggest clients, Coke, is still an enormous client. We help 0:56:17.120 --> 0:56:21.160 Coke with a lot of their music strategy. We help 0:56:21.239 --> 0:56:25.359 them negotiate their festival partnerships a bunch of years ago 0:56:25.440 --> 0:56:29.880 with Coachella and Lolla Clues and ACL and Live Nation AG. 0:56:30.600 --> 0:56:35.200 We help them with their talent selection and certain campaigns. 0:56:35.800 --> 0:56:38.120 You know, at Major League Soccer, we do all of 0:56:38.120 --> 0:56:41.520 their strategy in general advertising. So not only are we 0:56:41.600 --> 0:56:44.640 doing all the TV creative and the billboards and at 0:56:44.640 --> 0:56:46.600 a home you see, but like we help them with 0:56:46.960 --> 0:56:50.719 their All Star Game and their finals and not licensing 0:56:50.800 --> 0:56:53.359 music for their campaigns. The you know, we help work 0:56:53.440 --> 0:56:57.080 with Apple, who's their media partner. And building and developing 0:56:57.080 --> 0:57:01.320 and maintaining that relationship. But the agency business has changed 0:57:01.320 --> 0:57:05.360 a bit. Marketers are no longer anywhere near as brave 0:57:05.600 --> 0:57:09.680 as they were in the heyday of our company. You know, 0:57:09.760 --> 0:57:13.640 they are much more conservative and how they spend everything 0:57:14.320 --> 0:57:17.800 was so successful back in the day because brands operate 0:57:17.880 --> 0:57:21.640 good brands, not all brands. Brands operated on gut. Nike 0:57:21.840 --> 0:57:24.760 was a brave marketer. They didn't give a shit about 0:57:24.760 --> 0:57:28.000 what the metrics or the measurement or what the CPM 0:57:28.200 --> 0:57:31.440 value was. It was are we doing something that's going 0:57:31.520 --> 0:57:35.080 to change culture and lead culture. Now we live in 0:57:35.120 --> 0:57:37.960 a world where even Nike, the biggest brands in the world, 0:57:38.360 --> 0:57:43.720 are so measured and so conservative, and they're so you know, 0:57:43.800 --> 0:57:46.760 brands are so caught up in you know, are we 0:57:46.840 --> 0:57:50.000 getting maximum value? And I think it's hurting a lot 0:57:50.000 --> 0:57:53.520 of brands. I think, you know, the best most iconic 0:57:53.560 --> 0:57:56.280 brands in the world, the Apple, the Nikes, they always 0:57:56.320 --> 0:57:59.520 operated on gut. They were never guided on what the 0:57:59.600 --> 0:58:02.080 numbers said. And I think we live in such a 0:58:02.120 --> 0:58:06.280 measured world that, in my opinion, not just the agency business, 0:58:06.320 --> 0:58:10.440 the whole marketing business is really shattered and it's a 0:58:10.480 --> 0:58:14.360 reason you're seeing a lot of smaller, more niche brands 0:58:14.520 --> 0:58:17.760 rise because they're being a little braver and boulder, and 0:58:18.000 --> 0:58:22.880 a lot of young consumers don't lionize, you know, some 0:58:22.920 --> 0:58:25.240 of these big iconic brands the same way. The playing 0:58:25.280 --> 0:58:29.200 field is leveling, and it's because a lot of these brands, 0:58:29.240 --> 0:58:33.360 whether it's change in management or they're publicly traded companies 0:58:33.440 --> 0:58:36.760 with more pressure to maintain the stock price. I think 0:58:36.800 --> 0:58:40.120 they've lost their way, and I think I hope we're 0:58:40.120 --> 0:58:42.280 going to see a change for the better over the 0:58:42.320 --> 0:58:44.720 coming years where brands are going to get brave again, 0:58:44.760 --> 0:58:49.520 because right now, from my perspective, I believe the agency brand, 0:58:49.600 --> 0:58:54.280 you know side, it's just agencies can't do great work 0:58:54.400 --> 0:58:57.160 if they don't have the budgets and the support and 0:58:57.200 --> 0:58:59.520 the courage of brands. So I think that business has 0:58:59.560 --> 0:59:00.280 changed the lot. 0:59:01.520 --> 0:59:05.240 Okay, are you a full service agency? Most of this 0:59:05.320 --> 0:59:09.320 shit has moved online, but there's television, radio. If I 0:59:09.440 --> 0:59:11.880 go with you, you can service me across the board. 0:59:12.960 --> 0:59:15.520 We can in Major League Soccer, we play that role. 0:59:16.000 --> 0:59:20.240 Our wish is, you know, we want to we want 0:59:20.240 --> 0:59:23.200 to control as much as we can within reason. Our 0:59:23.240 --> 0:59:28.000 specialty is music, our specialty is creating non traditional platforms 0:59:28.040 --> 0:59:31.000 and ideas. But when it comes to a client that 0:59:31.920 --> 0:59:35.080 is really aligned with our thinking and they want the 0:59:35.120 --> 0:59:37.760 full service, like we have with Major League Soccer, we're 0:59:37.800 --> 0:59:41.960 all in and we've got a amazing pool of outside 0:59:42.000 --> 0:59:46.240 contributors that if a brand requires a specialty that we 0:59:46.280 --> 0:59:49.280 can find the resources. And we've got this amazing team 0:59:49.360 --> 0:59:52.080 of in house talent that knows how to keep building 0:59:53.120 --> 0:59:55.760 on what a brand needs. But I would say more 0:59:55.800 --> 0:59:58.400 often than not, our specialty is still going to be 0:59:58.520 --> 1:00:01.840 culture and music or so than being full service. Full 1:00:01.880 --> 1:00:05.520 service is a blessing and a curse. It can be 1:00:05.720 --> 1:00:08.480 very lucrative and very powerful, but it could also be 1:00:08.560 --> 1:00:12.480 so crippling because you have to hire so many people. 1:00:12.640 --> 1:00:14.760 You know, Like the biggest client we've ever had in 1:00:14.800 --> 1:00:17.760 the history of our company was Converse, which is the 1:00:17.840 --> 1:00:20.400 Nike owned sneaker brand, and at the peak of our 1:00:20.480 --> 1:00:24.560 Converse work, at one point we had fifty people working 1:00:24.600 --> 1:00:27.560 on the Converse business and we were doing incredible work. 1:00:27.600 --> 1:00:31.000 I mean work that I am so proud of, campaigns 1:00:31.040 --> 1:00:33.840 that are historical. But the problem is eventually there's a 1:00:33.960 --> 1:00:37.000 change in management and that goes away and then you 1:00:37.040 --> 1:00:41.120 have these amazing fifty people or you know, forty five 1:00:41.200 --> 1:00:44.439 people or whoever's working on the business, and you don't 1:00:44.440 --> 1:00:46.959 have the money to maintain the scale and the size 1:00:46.960 --> 1:00:49.640 of the staff. So you know, the blessing is you 1:00:49.760 --> 1:00:52.479 ramp up, you build this enormous business, the billing's great, 1:00:52.520 --> 1:00:56.160 the level works great, and then eventually it all ends. 1:00:56.200 --> 1:01:00.640 So being full service is pricky. I think at our 1:01:00.680 --> 1:01:03.400 core we want to stay rooted in music and culture. 1:01:03.480 --> 1:01:06.120 But when we can grow with the company like we 1:01:06.160 --> 1:01:09.000 did Converse or our Major League soccer, of course we're 1:01:09.040 --> 1:01:10.200 all in to do it. 1:01:17.720 --> 1:01:21.960 Okay, this is a business is consolidation. WPP owns a 1:01:21.960 --> 1:01:25.720 lot of iconic brands. There are other bigger companies. Has 1:01:25.760 --> 1:01:29.920 anyone approached you about buying the Cornerstone Agency and do 1:01:29.960 --> 1:01:32.440 you have a philosophy about that, like we're never going 1:01:32.520 --> 1:01:34.400 to sell out, or if the price is right or 1:01:34.760 --> 1:01:36.040 we need certain controls. 1:01:37.680 --> 1:01:41.240 Yeah, we have been approached constantly over the years, and 1:01:41.360 --> 1:01:45.400 you know, we've rob and I were always fiercely independent. 1:01:45.480 --> 1:01:49.720 It's not that we wouldn't sell or take on an investor. 1:01:50.520 --> 1:01:55.080 We are just so proud of our independence. It's been 1:01:55.120 --> 1:01:59.080 a blessing and a curse. The blessing is it enabled 1:01:59.120 --> 1:02:01.480 us to stay true to the music and culture and 1:02:01.800 --> 1:02:04.240 what we love and what we do, and stay true 1:02:04.280 --> 1:02:07.320 to our staff. The curse is when you go through 1:02:07.360 --> 1:02:10.560 tough times like a COVID or or you want to 1:02:10.600 --> 1:02:14.320 invest and grow a business, it's inefficient to grow certain 1:02:14.360 --> 1:02:16.920 divisions of the company out of the profits of another 1:02:16.960 --> 1:02:20.040 division of the company. And when you hit a COVID 1:02:20.280 --> 1:02:25.560 and big, you know, complicated, you know, life changing moments 1:02:25.560 --> 1:02:30.240 and a business, you know, it's sometimes is really nice 1:02:30.280 --> 1:02:34.280 to have a deep pocketed parent company. So yes, to 1:02:34.280 --> 1:02:36.880 answer your question, We've been approached a lot by a 1:02:36.920 --> 1:02:39.760 lot of the major agency. We've been approached by a 1:02:39.760 --> 1:02:42.360 lot of the big media players, and have had amazing 1:02:42.400 --> 1:02:47.520 conversations with so many great people in the music industry. 1:02:47.560 --> 1:02:49.560 We've even talked to a lot of the majors about 1:02:49.600 --> 1:02:52.480 becoming a division of some of the majors because our 1:02:52.520 --> 1:02:56.600 services could really help exploit that. And it's not that 1:02:56.640 --> 1:03:01.320 I'm opposed to doing a deal at at some point, 1:03:01.400 --> 1:03:04.320 but I think we want to stay true through our 1:03:04.360 --> 1:03:08.680 mission and we're just somewhat selective. What I don't love 1:03:08.720 --> 1:03:12.680 about some of the advertising holding companies is the types 1:03:12.680 --> 1:03:16.000 of deals they do. You're essentially borrowing your own money. 1:03:16.080 --> 1:03:19.720 Some of these deals are earnouts, where essentially you're just 1:03:19.720 --> 1:03:24.160 getting multiple on your own success and in essence you're 1:03:24.680 --> 1:03:28.320 literally borrowing your future earnings to get a check up front. 1:03:28.400 --> 1:03:30.680 And I don't think that's the kind of deal that 1:03:30.680 --> 1:03:33.080 we would want to do. I think if we're ever 1:03:33.160 --> 1:03:35.440 going to do something, I would want to do it 1:03:35.480 --> 1:03:38.880 with a great music player. You know, music is in 1:03:38.920 --> 1:03:41.200 the DNA and it's the through line and the threat 1:03:41.240 --> 1:03:44.160 of every aspect of the company, and the best partners 1:03:44.160 --> 1:03:47.400 for us out there would be someone that is really 1:03:47.480 --> 1:03:52.880 true to building something great or has been building something 1:03:52.880 --> 1:03:55.960 great music And it's you know, when you work twenty 1:03:55.960 --> 1:03:58.280 eight years and now when I'm in this weird position 1:03:58.360 --> 1:04:02.320 that I'm in sole control of the company, these are 1:04:02.320 --> 1:04:05.840 really hard decisions to make. And you know, we came close. 1:04:05.960 --> 1:04:08.280 We came close to private equity, we came close to 1:04:09.080 --> 1:04:12.800 selling to some major music players, and ultimately we just 1:04:13.000 --> 1:04:15.720 never pulled the trigger. But at some point I think 1:04:16.240 --> 1:04:18.360 we would do something. It's just got to be the 1:04:18.440 --> 1:04:22.040 right people. I think people, not the deal or what's 1:04:22.080 --> 1:04:24.120 going to guide who we do something with. It's got 1:04:24.160 --> 1:04:27.560 to be people that really share our vision and believe 1:04:27.600 --> 1:04:29.800 in music and believe in artists and believe in what 1:04:29.840 --> 1:04:32.000 we do. And that's kind of what I'm looking for 1:04:32.000 --> 1:04:33.240 in a potential partner. 1:04:33.800 --> 1:04:37.000 Okay, let's go back to your earlier point about brands 1:04:37.080 --> 1:04:40.840 or gunshine. You mentioned that there's a change in regime. 1:04:41.880 --> 1:04:47.280 How much also is change in culture, cancelation culture, what's 1:04:47.360 --> 1:04:51.440 going on on x formally Twitter? How much has to 1:04:51.480 --> 1:04:54.440 do with the landscape as opposed to management. 1:04:56.800 --> 1:05:04.400 That affects everything. Sadly, of the riving force for us 1:05:04.520 --> 1:05:07.600 at a brand is always the CMO, the chief marketing officer, 1:05:07.800 --> 1:05:12.360 And I think that is just like you know, how 1:05:13.000 --> 1:05:17.680 the heads of labels eventually, you know, expire, and there's 1:05:17.720 --> 1:05:20.520 a change in management constantly in our in our side 1:05:20.520 --> 1:05:22.760 of the music industry, That's kind of how the marketing 1:05:22.840 --> 1:05:25.760 side works, except the timetables even shorter. You know, it's 1:05:25.800 --> 1:05:28.720 no different than an NFL football coach. There is just 1:05:29.320 --> 1:05:33.760 constant turnover. And usually when you get hired at these brands, 1:05:34.240 --> 1:05:37.760 your strength of the relationship and success is the partnership 1:05:37.800 --> 1:05:40.439 you have with the CMO and his or her team 1:05:41.120 --> 1:05:44.960 on down. And that's really you know, usually when we 1:05:45.120 --> 1:05:48.280 change clients, it's because of a change in management. And 1:05:48.280 --> 1:05:50.720 what happens is you get in a great groove with 1:05:50.840 --> 1:05:53.640 whoever you're working with, and then teams change and that 1:05:53.680 --> 1:05:56.600 person wants to build and bring in their own team. 1:05:56.720 --> 1:06:00.800 But to your point about you know, the Internet and culture, 1:06:01.160 --> 1:06:05.200 everything that's out there that affects all these brands, I think, yes, 1:06:05.320 --> 1:06:08.480 that has made certain brands more conservative. I think brands 1:06:08.520 --> 1:06:11.800 are definitely more calculated because of the messaging out there. 1:06:12.080 --> 1:06:14.520 I think brands are a lot more thoughtful because they 1:06:14.560 --> 1:06:18.080 want to manage public perception and they're really concerned. They're 1:06:18.120 --> 1:06:21.960 concerned that, hey, I'm building a ten million dollar campaign 1:06:22.040 --> 1:06:25.560 with an artist that God forbid this artist does something 1:06:25.600 --> 1:06:28.360 wrong or steps out of mound. We're liable, we have 1:06:28.400 --> 1:06:30.680 a lot at stake, And I think you're right. The 1:06:30.760 --> 1:06:36.840 Internet magnifies so many problems that I truly believe that 1:06:37.000 --> 1:06:40.040 you know, that is what contributes to some of these 1:06:40.080 --> 1:06:41.080 brands being gunshy. 1:06:42.840 --> 1:06:48.000 Okay, this may be below your pay grade, but in 1:06:48.080 --> 1:06:52.440 terms of corporations in sponsorship now it used to be 1:06:52.520 --> 1:06:54.240 for long to all, we'll get to get a sponsor. 1:06:54.840 --> 1:06:58.600 Then the sponsors felt that they weren't getting value for money. 1:06:58.720 --> 1:07:03.320 I hear you, what is this status of brands being 1:07:03.440 --> 1:07:08.280 involved with individual acts, with tours, with festivals or really 1:07:08.320 --> 1:07:10.720 do they want to play on a much grander level 1:07:11.200 --> 1:07:13.760 that is opposed to tying themselves to one of. 1:07:13.680 --> 1:07:18.120 Those great question. You know. The reason why we were 1:07:18.160 --> 1:07:20.840 successful with all of our cornerstone work and the reason 1:07:20.880 --> 1:07:24.960 why I think we're really important is when we do 1:07:25.120 --> 1:07:27.840 things with music, we don't want it to be transactional. 1:07:28.800 --> 1:07:30.640 And there's so many brands that have come out of 1:07:30.640 --> 1:07:33.800 the woodwork to spend money in music, whether it's sponsoring 1:07:33.840 --> 1:07:39.840 something or paying an artists, and it's when the partnership 1:07:40.000 --> 1:07:45.120 is truly about elevating the art or enhancing how that 1:07:45.280 --> 1:07:49.720 artist can make something for his or her fans. I 1:07:49.760 --> 1:07:53.080 think that's when the partnership succeeds. When the partnership is 1:07:53.160 --> 1:07:56.000 purely an exchange of money where you're paying a big 1:07:56.080 --> 1:07:59.880 name artist to endorse or support your product, it fails 1:08:00.240 --> 1:08:04.200 and it's just transactional and the artist is being pushed 1:08:04.200 --> 1:08:07.320 by the brand or the agency to check off all 1:08:07.360 --> 1:08:11.320 the contractual obligations, and the artists feel badgered by you know, 1:08:11.440 --> 1:08:14.040 having to shill or sell for for the brand they 1:08:14.080 --> 1:08:18.120 just took this enormous check from. And I think that's 1:08:18.120 --> 1:08:20.120 where a lot of these things fail. You Now, it's 1:08:20.160 --> 1:08:23.960 different in the festival, in the concert space because sometimes 1:08:24.000 --> 1:08:27.400 that's signage, or you're buying real estate, or you're buying 1:08:28.160 --> 1:08:31.479 you know, hospitality set up. But when it comes to 1:08:31.560 --> 1:08:36.400 an artist partnership, in my opinion, the most successful partnerships 1:08:36.520 --> 1:08:39.720 is when the decision makers, not just the agency, not 1:08:39.800 --> 1:08:42.880 just me and my team, but the actual CMO and 1:08:42.920 --> 1:08:45.200 the people at the brand get to sit with the 1:08:45.320 --> 1:08:47.880 artists and get to ask each other questions and look 1:08:47.920 --> 1:08:50.960 each other in the eye and say, hey, does this 1:08:51.000 --> 1:08:53.120 feel good to you? Is this a non starter for you? 1:08:53.200 --> 1:08:55.479 What's important to you? What's going to turn you off? 1:08:55.880 --> 1:09:00.599 That's when these partnerships succeed and they fail, and more 1:09:00.640 --> 1:09:04.160 so lately, they fail because it's just the monetary exchange. 1:09:04.280 --> 1:09:08.679 And I don't blame artists or management for taking the money, 1:09:08.920 --> 1:09:11.800 but I do blame brands for not doing their due 1:09:11.840 --> 1:09:15.800 diligence and really taking the time to speak and get 1:09:15.800 --> 1:09:18.080 to know the artists as they do this. And I 1:09:18.120 --> 1:09:23.040 think it's a very delicate dance between a successful partnership 1:09:23.080 --> 1:09:26.479 and just the paid transaction. And the good news is 1:09:26.520 --> 1:09:29.040 a lot of artists in our business have been able 1:09:29.080 --> 1:09:34.200 to succeed outside the economic downturn of aspects of the business. 1:09:34.280 --> 1:09:37.080 You know, there is non traditional money out there for 1:09:37.200 --> 1:09:40.240 certain acts. The bad news is it really only affects 1:09:40.320 --> 1:09:45.280 the upper middle to high tier of the industry. Developing 1:09:45.360 --> 1:09:49.800 artists just don't have as much opportunity on the brand side. 1:09:49.800 --> 1:09:51.760 There's just not as much out there because they just 1:09:51.800 --> 1:09:55.120 don't move the needle as much. So it's tricky. 1:09:55.240 --> 1:09:58.000 Can you give me a specific example of the relationship 1:09:58.320 --> 1:10:01.360 with a brand and a music tea, a band, or 1:10:01.400 --> 1:10:06.320 an individual act that is not transactional that you think works. 1:10:07.160 --> 1:10:11.040 You know, we created a series for Converse called Three Artists, 1:10:11.120 --> 1:10:16.880 One Song, and Converse was celebrating their one hundredth anniversary. 1:10:17.560 --> 1:10:21.479 They did some research. Jeff Kottrell, who's the CMO, brilliant guy, 1:10:22.240 --> 1:10:25.240 he was a gut guy. He was such a good 1:10:25.240 --> 1:10:28.400 mentor someone I learned so much from and really brilliant 1:10:28.439 --> 1:10:31.920 market probably one of the Hall of Fame cmos out there. 1:10:32.000 --> 1:10:35.920 And he said he did some research and he found 1:10:36.000 --> 1:10:39.799 that the one hundredth anniversary was spoke to old people. 1:10:40.000 --> 1:10:42.640 You know, it didn't speak to kids. Kids didn't give 1:10:42.680 --> 1:10:44.720 a shit. But they needed to do something to at 1:10:44.800 --> 1:10:47.400 least celebrate the moment. So they came up with a 1:10:47.439 --> 1:10:55.760 platform which connected music icons and influential icons that organically 1:10:55.800 --> 1:10:59.400 wore a Converse by their feet. You ever see paper dolls, 1:10:59.479 --> 1:11:02.000 how they're out and their connected paper dolls are connected 1:11:02.040 --> 1:11:05.639 by their hands. Well, they worked with anomally their creative interest. 1:11:05.920 --> 1:11:08.960 They created this platform to connect people by their feet. 1:11:09.400 --> 1:11:11.400 And our feeling was that's good. It's gonna be a 1:11:11.400 --> 1:11:14.799 striking visual. And if you think about Converse, the Ramones 1:11:14.840 --> 1:11:20.680 were Converse, Elvis wore Converse, Nwa were Converse. The Nirvana 1:11:20.880 --> 1:11:25.439 Kurt Cobain, you know, sadly died in Converse, and Converse 1:11:25.479 --> 1:11:28.040 has always been a music icon. And what we said 1:11:28.080 --> 1:11:31.920 to them is, guys, your DNA is music. If you 1:11:31.960 --> 1:11:35.559 think of Nike as the performance brand, your your your 1:11:35.640 --> 1:11:39.559 parent company. They own running and sports and golf and 1:11:39.640 --> 1:11:44.040 tennis blah blah blah. Converse owns music. You organically, the 1:11:44.160 --> 1:11:47.400 Strokes are wearing Converse in the height of their career, 1:11:47.760 --> 1:11:50.880 you're organically there. So they built this platform off of 1:11:50.920 --> 1:11:54.120 that insight to connect people as paper dolls from their feet, 1:11:54.439 --> 1:11:57.519 and we said, to celebrate this, we're going to build 1:11:57.520 --> 1:12:01.320 a platform, and to con versus credit, they gave us 1:12:01.600 --> 1:12:05.040 Sideenttle budgets. We're going to build a platform based on 1:12:05.080 --> 1:12:08.519 the diversity of how much music embraces your brand. And 1:12:08.560 --> 1:12:10.920 we create a platform called Three Artists, One Song, and 1:12:10.920 --> 1:12:15.000 the idea was to bring three disparate artists that would 1:12:15.040 --> 1:12:18.280 never work together. Whereas my ninety examples the kings of 1:12:18.760 --> 1:12:21.800 hip hop, this idea was, how do we bring three 1:12:21.840 --> 1:12:25.519 people that normally would never work together, where their labels 1:12:25.520 --> 1:12:27.960 would never have the budget to give them to do 1:12:28.040 --> 1:12:32.519 something like this, and we would envision giving them budget 1:12:32.600 --> 1:12:35.679 to make a music video that the industry couldn't afford 1:12:35.760 --> 1:12:39.040 to do anymore, and we would make a song collaboration 1:12:39.200 --> 1:12:41.519 with three disparate artists. The first one we did, we 1:12:41.560 --> 1:12:46.479 took Pharrell, We took Julian Casablancas from The Strokes at 1:12:46.479 --> 1:12:49.439 the height of the Strokes success, and we took Santy Gold, 1:12:49.439 --> 1:12:52.439 who was at the time a really buzzing, you know, 1:12:52.520 --> 1:12:55.719 great up and comer, and we had the three of them. 1:12:55.880 --> 1:12:58.599 We had this happened in my office. I had Julian 1:12:58.640 --> 1:13:00.880 and Farrell meet in my office for the first time. 1:13:00.960 --> 1:13:02.720 They had a lot of mutual respect for each other, 1:13:02.840 --> 1:13:06.720 didn't know that much about each other. And then subsequently 1:13:06.840 --> 1:13:09.439 Santy came and got to meet them as well, and 1:13:09.479 --> 1:13:13.840 they agreed. We paid them all for their participation, and 1:13:13.880 --> 1:13:17.960 they agreed to work on a collaboration and Forarrell and 1:13:18.160 --> 1:13:20.719 Santi and Julian wrote the lyrics and the track. Forrell 1:13:20.840 --> 1:13:23.599 produced the track. Julian played some instruments on the track, 1:13:23.640 --> 1:13:25.920 so out at Santy, and then we made We gave 1:13:25.920 --> 1:13:28.040 them an enormous budget. I think the budget was like 1:13:28.080 --> 1:13:32.120 half a million dollars for a music video, this beautifully animated, 1:13:32.360 --> 1:13:38.520 really cool music video. And instead of making a TV commercial, 1:13:39.040 --> 1:13:42.080 Converse would cut segments of the music video and they 1:13:42.120 --> 1:13:44.519 would run it during the VMA's. They would run it digitally. 1:13:44.600 --> 1:13:46.920 They would We made billboards of the three of them 1:13:46.920 --> 1:13:50.879 connected by their feet, and we put these iconic images 1:13:50.920 --> 1:13:53.000 of Farrell and I'll send you all the stuff so 1:13:53.040 --> 1:13:55.280 you can look at it after our call as well, Farrell, 1:13:55.760 --> 1:14:00.000 Julian and Santi. And it exploded because it blew people's mind. 1:14:00.200 --> 1:14:02.240 They're like number one. They're like, what the fuck are 1:14:02.360 --> 1:14:05.040 three of these artists coming together? How the hell did 1:14:05.120 --> 1:14:08.360 Converse pull this off? And to Converse's credit, it was 1:14:08.400 --> 1:14:11.799 so successful they went on their gut. They then funded 1:14:11.880 --> 1:14:15.360 us to do it for eight more years, and every 1:14:15.640 --> 1:14:18.439 single season when they had new product come out, we 1:14:18.439 --> 1:14:21.280 would do another three artist one song. We did one 1:14:21.360 --> 1:14:24.479 with Frank Ocean, which is one of the very few 1:14:24.520 --> 1:14:28.519 brand deals Frank's ever done, Dip Low and the two 1:14:28.560 --> 1:14:31.799 surviving members of The Clash, Paul simmon In and Mick Jones, 1:14:31.840 --> 1:14:35.640 and they all collaborated on a track which was incredible, 1:14:35.680 --> 1:14:38.439 and we made you know again the same image of 1:14:38.479 --> 1:14:41.000 all of those artists, and we put that on billboards 1:14:41.000 --> 1:14:45.679 in Hiccadilly Circus and on Sunset Boulevard and in Times Square. 1:14:46.000 --> 1:14:50.479 So we were moving the needle where we looked the 1:14:50.560 --> 1:14:52.920 artists in the face and said, hey, what would you 1:14:52.960 --> 1:14:56.800 want to do if you had almost endless budget and 1:14:56.920 --> 1:15:00.479 total creative control. And we did nine of them. We 1:15:00.560 --> 1:15:04.799 did Kid Cutty, Rostam from Vampire Weekend and Best Coast. 1:15:05.040 --> 1:15:09.160 We did we did so I'll send you the list 1:15:09.200 --> 1:15:12.040 of all of them. And we did Bernard Sumner from 1:15:12.080 --> 1:15:14.960 New Order and Hot Chip did one, and then we 1:15:15.000 --> 1:15:19.120 started doing them with regional appeal. We did an early 1:15:19.200 --> 1:15:21.360 version of a K pop one, you know, for just 1:15:21.439 --> 1:15:25.040 the Korean market. So that's an example of when you 1:15:25.080 --> 1:15:28.760 get people aligned creatively of what it could succeed. I'm 1:15:28.760 --> 1:15:31.360 trying to think of a failure example, but I don't 1:15:31.360 --> 1:15:32.760 have one on the spot for you, But there are 1:15:32.800 --> 1:15:33.439 a lot of those. 1:15:33.800 --> 1:15:40.240 These are creatively tens. Do these brands then say, you 1:15:40.320 --> 1:15:42.720 know something like Coke, it's a giant company and these 1:15:42.720 --> 1:15:46.000 are image campaigns. Do these companies want to see a 1:15:46.000 --> 1:15:47.599 direct impact on sales? 1:15:49.120 --> 1:15:52.960 They do, they don't. They have a patience. This is 1:15:53.040 --> 1:15:56.320 not driven solely about hey, we run the spot, are 1:15:56.320 --> 1:16:00.439 we seeing product? They want to see a rye in 1:16:00.479 --> 1:16:03.719 their brand heat, they want to see that they're being 1:16:03.840 --> 1:16:08.719 organically spoken about in social media, They're being organically spoken 1:16:08.760 --> 1:16:14.719 about in a lot of different you know press, lifestyle press, 1:16:16.200 --> 1:16:19.759 and ultimately they do want to see a correlation to sales. 1:16:19.800 --> 1:16:22.879 But I think what these campaigns do first and foremost 1:16:23.320 --> 1:16:28.240 is they start getting their younger consumer excited and talking 1:16:28.280 --> 1:16:31.479 about the brand, and then the hope is eventually it 1:16:31.520 --> 1:16:34.719 makes a sales connection. A lot of our stuff always 1:16:34.720 --> 1:16:37.040 has a retail call to action. So if we were 1:16:37.080 --> 1:16:41.200 doing these three artists one song collaborations, you would go 1:16:41.280 --> 1:16:44.599 into a Journey's store in the mall, or you would 1:16:44.600 --> 1:16:47.280 go into foot locker and then you would see that 1:16:47.400 --> 1:16:51.719 display and you'd see a connection through the campaign in there. 1:16:52.000 --> 1:16:56.240 But the best marketers are again, they're not making the 1:16:56.240 --> 1:17:00.200 future success of these campaigns solely based on a scent 1:17:00.439 --> 1:17:03.120 rise in sales. When they do that, they don't allow 1:17:03.160 --> 1:17:05.640 it the time to flourish. A lot of these campaigns 1:17:06.600 --> 1:17:12.200 succeed because we repeated them. We did it consistently for five, six, seven, eight, 1:17:12.320 --> 1:17:15.479 nine years, and a lot of brands right now will 1:17:15.520 --> 1:17:17.760 do these campaigns as a one off, but they don't 1:17:17.760 --> 1:17:20.520 build any momentum. And if you don't build any momentum, 1:17:20.960 --> 1:17:24.320 you're really not going to see the sales reaction. So yes, 1:17:24.400 --> 1:17:27.040 there is a form of measurement eventually that's needed, but 1:17:27.080 --> 1:17:29.640 it's not as black and white as hey, we need 1:17:29.680 --> 1:17:31.880 to see a ten percent rise in sales or we're 1:17:31.920 --> 1:17:32.719 not doing this again. 1:17:41.640 --> 1:17:45.639 Okay, when you deal with acts, Eil Young famously wrote 1:17:45.680 --> 1:17:48.760 a song and won't take any money from people. He 1:17:48.920 --> 1:17:52.719 still means something in today's marketplace. You can go back 1:17:52.760 --> 1:17:55.400 and look at people who took the money. They don't 1:17:55.439 --> 1:17:58.799 mean as much. The issue of credibility now in the business, 1:17:58.840 --> 1:18:01.920 and a lot of these people are percent people say, oh, 1:18:02.040 --> 1:18:05.120 the customer doesn't care. You know, you can sell out, 1:18:05.160 --> 1:18:08.920 it's no big deal. What is the status of the 1:18:09.080 --> 1:18:12.559 impact on one of these clients, And would you say 1:18:12.680 --> 1:18:15.800 every client there's a musician, there's a way to do 1:18:15.840 --> 1:18:18.720 a brand deal. Or should certain acts still not do 1:18:18.840 --> 1:18:19.519 brand deals? 1:18:20.680 --> 1:18:25.559 Yeah, that's a great question. I don't think it's a blanket, 1:18:25.640 --> 1:18:29.599 black and white answer. I don't think the consumer cares 1:18:29.920 --> 1:18:32.000 anywhere near as much as they used to, you know, 1:18:32.160 --> 1:18:35.559 like back in the day, if Nirvana did a brand 1:18:35.600 --> 1:18:38.000 deal in the height of their success, I think it 1:18:38.000 --> 1:18:40.439 would have been a complete failure and gone against everything 1:18:40.479 --> 1:18:43.479 they stand for. There are certain acts that I think 1:18:43.600 --> 1:18:48.320 have to tread slowly and take their time, But the 1:18:48.439 --> 1:18:52.040 consumer is a lot more accepting, even embracing. I mean, 1:18:52.080 --> 1:18:56.040 we live in a social world where, especially in hip 1:18:56.040 --> 1:18:59.440 hop and certain genres, you know, the right brand association 1:19:00.120 --> 1:19:03.679 really elevates an artist's status, you know, and it shows 1:19:03.720 --> 1:19:06.519 that you know, whether it's high fashion that embraces a 1:19:06.520 --> 1:19:09.679 lot of music, you know, or the right car brand. 1:19:09.960 --> 1:19:15.120 There are situations where brands can elevate the consumer perception. 1:19:15.240 --> 1:19:18.439 I do think consumers are much more forgiving and accepting. 1:19:18.520 --> 1:19:21.559 They're not as critical as maybe they were back in 1:19:21.600 --> 1:19:24.000 the day. But there are certain artists that have to 1:19:24.000 --> 1:19:26.880 have a high filter. You can't just take every check. 1:19:28.280 --> 1:19:31.559 You know, I have approached I'm not going to name names, 1:19:31.600 --> 1:19:35.519 but I've talked to I've spoken with, you know, and 1:19:35.840 --> 1:19:38.799 talked to some of the biggest superstars in the business 1:19:38.960 --> 1:19:42.400 on behalf of some of the biggest brands in the world, 1:19:43.000 --> 1:19:48.760 and they have cited certain corporate policies and issues for 1:19:48.840 --> 1:19:50.720 the reason that they're not going to work there. So 1:19:50.840 --> 1:19:54.360 brands do artists have a very high filter. They have 1:19:54.400 --> 1:19:57.040 a lot of social conscience. They're not just out for 1:19:57.080 --> 1:20:00.280 the biggest check. And I think the best artists will 1:20:00.320 --> 1:20:04.680 always evaluate brand partnerships based on not just the finances, 1:20:04.720 --> 1:20:08.560 but what is the best for them, their fans, and 1:20:09.000 --> 1:20:10.840 how it's going to be perceived. 1:20:11.920 --> 1:20:15.679 Okay, let's switch gears. Tell me about starting the Fader. 1:20:17.080 --> 1:20:21.000 So Fader started in the summer of nineteen ninety nine, 1:20:21.800 --> 1:20:24.720 and it was a guy named Lee Harrison, who was 1:20:25.200 --> 1:20:27.919 heading up a lot of marketing for Rob and I brilliant, 1:20:28.000 --> 1:20:31.080 smart guy. I worked with him at Columbia. He was 1:20:31.120 --> 1:20:33.519 the guy that came up with so many really great 1:20:33.560 --> 1:20:36.680 ideas for us, and he was the young guy on 1:20:36.720 --> 1:20:39.479 our team that just always had his foot on the 1:20:39.479 --> 1:20:43.440 pulse of every great new artist, what was going on culturally. 1:20:43.640 --> 1:20:47.040 And the idea was we were going to start Fader, 1:20:47.280 --> 1:20:52.160 and a fader is the mixer. It's it's the way 1:20:52.240 --> 1:20:56.040 that DJ blends records. So it's the way a DJ 1:20:56.600 --> 1:21:00.240 is going from one record to another record and on 1:21:00.280 --> 1:21:04.559 the mixing console of his DJ gear. And the idea 1:21:04.800 --> 1:21:08.920 was to start a small, you know, publication focus on 1:21:09.000 --> 1:21:12.200 what's next in music, to turn the same people who 1:21:12.200 --> 1:21:14.920 were giving those mixtapes to that I was describing, to 1:21:15.000 --> 1:21:17.919 turn those people onto what's next in music, to document 1:21:17.960 --> 1:21:20.880 the access we had to hearing all this early music 1:21:21.360 --> 1:21:25.400 and using some really great photography, writing some great stories 1:21:25.439 --> 1:21:30.360 to turn DJ's influencers just people that could help break artists. 1:21:30.400 --> 1:21:34.760 And the first issue. Rob was the one who pushed us. 1:21:34.760 --> 1:21:36.640 He's like, I'm so fucking sick of hearing of this 1:21:36.800 --> 1:21:39.280 idea we're getting in a room right now, and we're 1:21:39.320 --> 1:21:41.840 making this thing. And it was a team of like 1:21:42.000 --> 1:21:45.120 six or seven of us. Our CEO, Anthony Holland, was 1:21:45.160 --> 1:21:47.439 one of those one of those guys who just get 1:21:47.479 --> 1:21:49.280 you come up with an idea, he figures out how 1:21:49.280 --> 1:21:53.160 to do it. And Rob was the muscle and the 1:21:53.240 --> 1:21:55.240 energy to get us to all to stay in the 1:21:55.240 --> 1:21:57.519 office for a week straight and just figure it out. 1:21:57.560 --> 1:21:59.400 And Rob and I wrote a lot of the early 1:21:59.400 --> 1:22:04.000 pieces to get We hired some freelancers, We had some friends. 1:22:04.040 --> 1:22:06.960 We had this incredible guy named Jonathan Manyon who was 1:22:07.040 --> 1:22:10.360 an up and coming respected hip hop photographer, and he 1:22:10.479 --> 1:22:13.639 came in and got the first few covers for us, 1:22:14.640 --> 1:22:18.040 and Anthony hired some young designers that did the layout. 1:22:18.040 --> 1:22:21.519 In designing, eventually we met a young guy named Jeff 1:22:21.600 --> 1:22:25.960 Staple who has a very successful clothing company, big designer 1:22:26.000 --> 1:22:30.400 and in the clothing space and super successful entrepreneur. Jeff 1:22:30.439 --> 1:22:33.720 Staple came in and became our first real designer to 1:22:33.760 --> 1:22:36.479 help lay out the designs of all the early issues 1:22:36.479 --> 1:22:39.320 of Fader, and we just scrapped together the ability to 1:22:39.360 --> 1:22:42.400 make this magazine. The first one had funk Master Flex, 1:22:42.880 --> 1:22:44.920 a big New York DJ from Hot ninety seven on 1:22:45.000 --> 1:22:47.680 the cover and it was almost like a pamphlet. And 1:22:47.720 --> 1:22:52.720 then the second one thanks to a great young girl 1:22:52.800 --> 1:22:55.679 who worked for us for years, Sarah Nwkirk. She most 1:22:55.720 --> 1:22:58.599 recently she manages Raging against the Machine now to this day. 1:22:58.960 --> 1:23:02.080 But Sarah was able to get us Zach Dala Roche 1:23:02.200 --> 1:23:05.200 from Rage, Rob was able to get Run from Run 1:23:05.320 --> 1:23:08.240 DMC and Premiere from Gangstar and we put the three 1:23:08.280 --> 1:23:10.439 of them on the cover of Fader. Again, here we 1:23:10.479 --> 1:23:15.880 are Bob men, melting genres, bringing really disparate genres together, 1:23:16.200 --> 1:23:17.880 and we get the three of them to be on 1:23:17.880 --> 1:23:21.320 the cover of Fader. And it was the caption the 1:23:21.400 --> 1:23:25.519 title on the cover was three Kings and people's heads 1:23:25.600 --> 1:23:28.280 exploded when we put the three of them on the cover. 1:23:28.920 --> 1:23:31.719 People started noticing, holy shit, what the hell is Fader? 1:23:31.800 --> 1:23:34.479 Who's behind this? And how did they get those three 1:23:34.600 --> 1:23:38.360 artists together on the cover. And from there it exploded 1:23:38.439 --> 1:23:42.639 because every young photographer saw that we were making Fader 1:23:42.800 --> 1:23:45.360 on this really heavy paper stock. We were breaking all 1:23:45.400 --> 1:23:50.360 the rules. We were allowing young photographers, not the legends 1:23:51.000 --> 1:23:54.280 have their first shot to shoot covers. We were giving 1:23:54.439 --> 1:23:57.479 shots to artists that were really young in the evolution 1:23:57.520 --> 1:24:00.400 in their career, and we went from that Three King's 1:24:00.439 --> 1:24:03.920 cover to getting Beck and D'Angelo together on a cover, 1:24:04.360 --> 1:24:06.080 and then we had the idea that we were never 1:24:06.120 --> 1:24:08.160 going to sell the ad space on the back cover, 1:24:08.280 --> 1:24:10.519 but we were always going to do two covers. So 1:24:11.000 --> 1:24:13.960 the idea was, how do we take all of our 1:24:14.080 --> 1:24:18.719 history and the alternative rock space, the dance electronics space, 1:24:18.760 --> 1:24:21.840 and our history in the hip hop space and have 1:24:22.360 --> 1:24:27.479 a truly diverse magazine that represented everything in culture. And 1:24:27.520 --> 1:24:30.680 it was modeled after the Face like. We saw that 1:24:30.720 --> 1:24:34.400 the UK was doing things in magazines and media so 1:24:34.479 --> 1:24:36.840 much better than the US. Spin and Rolling Stone at 1:24:36.840 --> 1:24:40.240 the time had gotten stale. They were moving in a 1:24:40.280 --> 1:24:43.439 much more pop direction. And our whole mandate was, let's 1:24:43.479 --> 1:24:47.240 break the rules, Let's start putting relatively unknown artists on 1:24:47.320 --> 1:24:50.960 these covers. Let's do two covers of every issue. And 1:24:51.040 --> 1:24:54.880 it really exploded, and we went from selling the ads 1:24:54.920 --> 1:24:58.040 ourselves and writing stuff to building a team and bringing 1:24:58.040 --> 1:25:00.960 in some expertise, and with every every issue it got 1:25:01.000 --> 1:25:04.200 bigger and bigger. The bet d'andelo issue led to us 1:25:04.240 --> 1:25:07.679 having outcasts on the cover. Outcast led to us having 1:25:08.120 --> 1:25:10.920 thanks to the help of Paul Rosenberg, a young eminem 1:25:10.960 --> 1:25:13.200 who was just starting out and putting EM and M 1:25:13.240 --> 1:25:16.519 on the cover. And then then the world started just 1:25:16.760 --> 1:25:20.200 noticing what we're doing, and everything was inbound. Everybody was 1:25:20.240 --> 1:25:24.639 pitching us their ideas and stories. I think fader Though, 1:25:25.200 --> 1:25:28.760 really came to life when we started doing events, and 1:25:28.800 --> 1:25:33.639 when we started celebrating every issue with an issue release party. 1:25:34.080 --> 1:25:37.439 It really started to all the right people, whether we 1:25:37.439 --> 1:25:39.559 were in New York or la or London, all the 1:25:39.600 --> 1:25:42.839 right people would come out and come to our parties 1:25:42.840 --> 1:25:47.120 and our performances. We did an event in New York 1:25:47.920 --> 1:25:50.599 in the Round. We got Red Striped the beer company 1:25:50.600 --> 1:25:53.439 to give us some money and we had this virtually 1:25:53.479 --> 1:25:56.800 unknown artist named Mia play in the Round in New 1:25:56.880 --> 1:25:58.800 York City and it was her first New York City 1:25:58.840 --> 1:26:03.519 performance ever think and it was like moments like that 1:26:03.960 --> 1:26:08.040 where everyone knew that we were playing a big role 1:26:08.240 --> 1:26:12.080 in introducing new things in culture. We eventually would go 1:26:12.160 --> 1:26:15.800 on to start fader Ford. Fader Fort was our festival 1:26:15.800 --> 1:26:20.760 property that was almost like counter programming to different things 1:26:20.800 --> 1:26:22.720 that would happen in a city. We did it in 1:26:22.720 --> 1:26:26.160 New York City during CMJ or the VMAs. We did 1:26:26.200 --> 1:26:29.240 it in Austin during south By Southwest, and it was 1:26:29.240 --> 1:26:32.920 our way of bringing the editorial of Fader to life 1:26:32.920 --> 1:26:36.800 in a physical sense. Fader Ford in Austin. It's one 1:26:36.800 --> 1:26:39.640 of the first shows Amy Winehouse did down there. You know, 1:26:39.720 --> 1:26:41.880 she did like a handful of shows. You know, she 1:26:42.040 --> 1:26:46.160 chose to play our events as a young artist. Fader 1:26:46.240 --> 1:26:50.960 Fort was the place where so many established and young 1:26:51.000 --> 1:26:53.720 acts would come and perform, and they'd use Fader as 1:26:53.760 --> 1:26:57.240 a platform. We did events with. You know, Travis Scott 1:26:57.240 --> 1:26:59.880 played fader Ford at a at a very early stage 1:26:59.880 --> 1:27:02.120 of his career, both in New York and in Austin. 1:27:02.640 --> 1:27:05.479 Eventually Kanye would headline Fader for It, Drake would headline 1:27:05.520 --> 1:27:09.160 Fader for It. Bony Ver, a young nineteen seventy five, 1:27:09.320 --> 1:27:11.639 open Fader for It when they were just starting out. 1:27:11.720 --> 1:27:16.640 So we built this editorial platform that was focused on 1:27:16.680 --> 1:27:19.200 telling the stories of who was next in music. And 1:27:19.240 --> 1:27:21.280 we're so proud of the artists that we were part of. 1:27:21.320 --> 1:27:25.400 Pharrell and Chad Hugo when they were the Neptunes were 1:27:25.479 --> 1:27:28.280 on the cover the White Stripes. But then we brought 1:27:28.280 --> 1:27:30.960 it to life in a physical sense for creating our 1:27:31.000 --> 1:27:35.120 own festival property, and it really exploded because we were 1:27:35.160 --> 1:27:36.160 doing things differently. 1:27:37.600 --> 1:27:42.120 Okay, when you started the Fader, what were the goals? 1:27:42.560 --> 1:27:45.560 Was there an economic goal, like this is a business? 1:27:46.040 --> 1:27:48.800 Was it just spreading the word? What was the goal 1:27:48.880 --> 1:27:49.639 at the advent? 1:27:50.760 --> 1:27:53.479 The advent and the goal was to turn more people 1:27:53.520 --> 1:27:57.080 onto new music. We felt there was a hole in 1:27:57.160 --> 1:28:00.200 the media space in the US that nobody was talking 1:28:00.240 --> 1:28:03.080 about what's next in music anymore, you know, like I said, 1:28:03.120 --> 1:28:06.960 spinning Rolling Stone, we're covering whatever. Mainstream pop stars they 1:28:06.960 --> 1:28:10.439 were trying to become bigger, broader, and only the UK 1:28:10.560 --> 1:28:14.920 publications were really digging in on new stuff. So the 1:28:15.000 --> 1:28:18.160 goal was to create a vehicle, a tool to turn 1:28:18.240 --> 1:28:21.320 people onto new music and culture, and that would help us. 1:28:21.680 --> 1:28:24.599 It would help, you know, really just build a better 1:28:24.680 --> 1:28:28.000 network of relationships that could help all the other aspects 1:28:28.040 --> 1:28:30.840 of the business. Eventually, Yes, we hoped to turn it 1:28:30.880 --> 1:28:34.400 into a profitable business, but the Fader in its early 1:28:34.439 --> 1:28:36.640 years it lost money. I mean, we were lucky that 1:28:36.680 --> 1:28:38.880 we had an agency and other businesses that we could 1:28:38.880 --> 1:28:41.640 pour that money into funding the start of Fader. We 1:28:41.720 --> 1:28:45.600 always wanted to keep a clear separation of church and 1:28:45.640 --> 1:28:48.880 state between the agency and Fader, but they did help 1:28:48.920 --> 1:28:51.120 each other out. Fader opened up a lot of doors 1:28:51.120 --> 1:28:52.960 for us to get a lot of meetings on the 1:28:53.000 --> 1:28:57.680 agency side, and then Cornerstone got us the brand relationships 1:28:57.720 --> 1:28:59.679 where we could go to these brands and said, hey, 1:28:59.760 --> 1:29:02.840 help us meet your advertising people. We need your help 1:29:03.120 --> 1:29:05.519 to support this great new media property we're starting. So 1:29:05.600 --> 1:29:08.879 both businesses did help each other out, and then probably 1:29:08.920 --> 1:29:11.920 a couple of years in, we started becoming profitable and 1:29:11.960 --> 1:29:13.920 it became a great standalone business. 1:29:14.640 --> 1:29:16.960 You know, we had so many magazines of going on 1:29:17.080 --> 1:29:20.479 a business or stopped in print. What was the history 1:29:20.479 --> 1:29:23.839 of Fader as the Internet came along? Uh? 1:29:23.880 --> 1:29:29.439 It was the Internet was exciting our editorial team, you know, 1:29:29.680 --> 1:29:33.160 really was discovering what was then known as blogging and 1:29:33.840 --> 1:29:36.800 that world. And we hired this great young guy, Nick 1:29:36.840 --> 1:29:41.760 Cash Dubbs, who is a Trax partner right now on 1:29:41.960 --> 1:29:44.200 more on the record side, but he was our initial 1:29:44.200 --> 1:29:46.519 Fader dot com editor. We brought him on board. He 1:29:46.560 --> 1:29:49.360 was running his own blog, and he and our editorial 1:29:49.400 --> 1:29:53.880 team really built the first version of Fader dot com 1:29:53.880 --> 1:29:57.400 and it was really successful. You know, we started with 1:29:57.439 --> 1:29:59.960 writing our stories online. We never wanted to stop printing 1:30:00.080 --> 1:30:05.040 the magazine and the Internet really was a great evolution 1:30:05.360 --> 1:30:07.519 of Fader. It opened us up to so many worlds. 1:30:07.560 --> 1:30:10.120 Eventually we started spending more and more money on video 1:30:10.240 --> 1:30:14.519 and short form documentaries. We you know, really we're telling 1:30:14.560 --> 1:30:18.200 great stories both in a video sense. That would lead 1:30:18.240 --> 1:30:22.080 to us starting some podcasts, you know. A couple of 1:30:22.160 --> 1:30:24.400 years ago, during COVID, we started a partnership with Mark 1:30:24.479 --> 1:30:27.400 Ronson and we started a podcast with Mark we call 1:30:27.439 --> 1:30:31.880 a Fader Uncovered, so in between him producing whatever massive album, 1:30:32.320 --> 1:30:35.559 he would interview the who's who of icons and music. 1:30:35.640 --> 1:30:38.400 So we started using the podcasting platform. We still do 1:30:38.479 --> 1:30:40.960 a lot of social video obviously now everything is on 1:30:41.280 --> 1:30:45.679 Instagram and TikTok. Unfortunately, we haven't printed the magazine since 1:30:45.760 --> 1:30:50.280 COVID because it just doesn't make financial success, you know sense. 1:30:50.320 --> 1:30:54.519 But we're we're really trying to reactivate print. I do 1:30:54.640 --> 1:30:56.799 want to bring it back and maybe do two issues 1:30:56.840 --> 1:31:01.160 a year. But the media business is true, and you know, 1:31:01.280 --> 1:31:03.200 you and I were talking about this in in London 1:31:03.240 --> 1:31:07.080 a few months ago. The media business is so challenging. 1:31:08.080 --> 1:31:12.599 Dollars have moved away from media, dollars are from from brands, 1:31:12.640 --> 1:31:16.880 are being spent again on social media and measured platforms. 1:31:16.920 --> 1:31:20.040 And it's been a really really challenging period for Fader 1:31:20.120 --> 1:31:24.360 and any media business. You know, it's it's as a business, 1:31:24.400 --> 1:31:28.320 it's become really really hard to figure out what is 1:31:28.360 --> 1:31:31.800 the path forward of media. And I think, you know, 1:31:32.040 --> 1:31:35.120 we're not alone. A lot of media properties are in 1:31:35.160 --> 1:31:37.679 this business. It's it's the film and TV world going 1:31:37.680 --> 1:31:40.880 through it, it's the it's the content business is going 1:31:40.920 --> 1:31:46.200 through it. Every business in media is really in a struggle. Luckily, 1:31:46.560 --> 1:31:50.479 we we really doubled down on Fader label and building 1:31:50.880 --> 1:31:54.559 a whole music division, and that through through the success 1:31:54.560 --> 1:31:58.320 of streaming, has been an enormously profitable business and been 1:31:58.360 --> 1:32:01.320 a really strong component. But the media business is something 1:32:01.400 --> 1:32:04.400 that we're challenged with to figure out what is the 1:32:04.439 --> 1:32:07.080 way forward. And we're experimenting with a lot of new 1:32:07.120 --> 1:32:09.880 things on a lot of new approaches, but it is 1:32:09.920 --> 1:32:10.439 not easy. 1:32:10.920 --> 1:32:13.439 So tell me about the elements of the music division. 1:32:14.720 --> 1:32:19.639 So music division started in the early two thousands because 1:32:19.840 --> 1:32:23.800 a lot of artists that we met through Fader, New 1:32:23.880 --> 1:32:26.519 Rob and I came from the music industry. They knew 1:32:26.560 --> 1:32:28.599 we had a lot of expertise and they would ask 1:32:28.600 --> 1:32:31.280 for our help and we didn't want to charge them. 1:32:31.360 --> 1:32:34.400 We didn't want to open up a music marketing division again. 1:32:35.240 --> 1:32:36.840 So we said, you know what, we want to help 1:32:36.880 --> 1:32:40.040 you guys. Let's become partners. We'll put up the money, 1:32:40.600 --> 1:32:43.080 we'll do the work in the marketing, you'll be the artist, 1:32:43.240 --> 1:32:46.240 and we'll create what is now a pretty modern deal 1:32:46.280 --> 1:32:48.519 structure that the whole industry is embrace. I'm not saying 1:32:48.560 --> 1:32:52.479 we started it, but we wanted to be early to 1:32:52.600 --> 1:32:55.360 create a true fifty to fifty partnership with artists. So 1:32:55.800 --> 1:32:58.679 we met tons of artists through Fader. They would always 1:32:58.680 --> 1:33:00.880 be in our office, they always play us Munick. Some 1:33:00.960 --> 1:33:04.200 were on majors, some were disenchanted with that system. They 1:33:04.240 --> 1:33:07.200 wanted options and help with their career. And it started 1:33:07.200 --> 1:33:09.479 with this brilliant artist who we still work with to 1:33:09.520 --> 1:33:13.839 this day named Saul Williams, whose first record was produced 1:33:13.840 --> 1:33:17.719 by Rick Rubmin. Came out on Columbia on Rick Rubin's label, 1:33:17.840 --> 1:33:21.040 and then we eventually signed him over to management and 1:33:21.120 --> 1:33:24.200 signed him to Fader label. We then got Trent Reznor 1:33:24.240 --> 1:33:26.760 to work with him on the second record. Saul was 1:33:26.800 --> 1:33:29.240 on tour with Trent and they made the album together 1:33:29.920 --> 1:33:32.759 and Saul's what really got us started, and from Saul, 1:33:32.840 --> 1:33:36.240 we then signed this amazing duo named Matt and Kim. 1:33:36.479 --> 1:33:40.200 They had an offer from Warners and Colombia, all the majors. 1:33:40.240 --> 1:33:42.920 They just were an indie band all the way, and 1:33:42.960 --> 1:33:44.840 we just fell in love with each other. They were 1:33:45.000 --> 1:33:50.559 this brilliant duo who toured relentlessly and they had excellent music. 1:33:50.640 --> 1:33:54.080 They had played me Daylight, which would become their career 1:33:54.160 --> 1:33:56.920 head and they were managed by Kevin Patrick, who to 1:33:56.960 --> 1:33:59.519 this day is a great friend who is an A 1:33:59.600 --> 1:34:01.800 and R guy at Columbia who I worked with, and 1:34:02.680 --> 1:34:05.920 just a really smart, brilliant guy. And he always knew 1:34:06.560 --> 1:34:09.080 that the major label system were going to eat them up, 1:34:09.320 --> 1:34:11.679 and we partnered on that and our label just really 1:34:11.720 --> 1:34:16.360 started that way. It started organically was profitable, but as 1:34:16.400 --> 1:34:21.160 we entered the twenty ten to twenty fifteen era, it 1:34:21.240 --> 1:34:23.840 was a tough time to make money in the music business, 1:34:23.840 --> 1:34:28.000 so we were very conservative about how we signed acts 1:34:28.000 --> 1:34:30.280 and what we went after. And all of a sudden, 1:34:30.360 --> 1:34:35.000 we started looking at our catalog circa twenty sixteen seventeen, 1:34:35.479 --> 1:34:39.200 and the revenue that we saw coming in from streaming 1:34:40.360 --> 1:34:43.200 was enormous. It started to really make sense. We had 1:34:43.200 --> 1:34:47.200 built this great catalog, and all of a sudden, the 1:34:47.240 --> 1:34:50.960 third small component of our business was becoming one of 1:34:50.960 --> 1:34:54.360 the most profitable and most efficient by virtue of the 1:34:54.400 --> 1:34:57.040 success of streaming. And it was at that point that 1:34:57.080 --> 1:34:58.960 we said we got to double down on this business 1:34:59.000 --> 1:35:02.840 and reinvest in it. And I met Carson Oberg who 1:35:02.880 --> 1:35:06.559 was a young manager who's managing a few artists, and 1:35:06.600 --> 1:35:08.519 we brought him in to head up the label. He 1:35:08.560 --> 1:35:12.280 was in his early twenties and really really smart beyond 1:35:12.280 --> 1:35:16.360 his years and or in his mid twenties, and he, uh, 1:35:16.880 --> 1:35:20.200 he really transformed the label. We we then I met Claro. 1:35:20.520 --> 1:35:25.640 We signed Claro, who you know, is an absolutely brilliant artist. 1:35:25.880 --> 1:35:28.920 We then parlayed the success of Claro and and and 1:35:29.000 --> 1:35:32.479 grew the label roster from what was about six artists 1:35:32.479 --> 1:35:36.160 to about thirty five artists right now. We built a 1:35:36.160 --> 1:35:40.519 publishing entity that goes through Cobalt. The label is solely 1:35:40.520 --> 1:35:43.680 owned by us, but it's distributed by Virgin And then 1:35:43.720 --> 1:35:46.960 we have a management company that Carson heads up. And 1:35:47.000 --> 1:35:49.920 we worked with this, you know, brilliant roster of artists. 1:35:50.360 --> 1:35:53.240 Dell water Gap is our biggest success on that side. 1:35:54.360 --> 1:35:59.320 He is an incredible artists, the hardest working artist I've 1:35:59.360 --> 1:36:03.720 ever seen in my thirty seven years of music. He 1:36:03.800 --> 1:36:06.920 is so committed to what he is. He is everything 1:36:07.640 --> 1:36:12.040 that an artist needs to do in today's climate. But 1:36:12.600 --> 1:36:15.960 it's a challenging business for independent labels and it's a 1:36:16.080 --> 1:36:19.480 challenging business for young artists. We're doing really well with everything, 1:36:19.920 --> 1:36:21.719 but as you and I have talked about in the past, 1:36:21.920 --> 1:36:25.519 is it is so hard to break through in today's business. 1:36:25.720 --> 1:36:28.880 The opportunity is there for so many. The problem is 1:36:29.360 --> 1:36:31.760 to have real success and to make a living and 1:36:31.880 --> 1:36:35.639 sustain for independent artists and independent labels, it's really challenging. 1:36:35.760 --> 1:36:39.200 And you know, by having a catalog, we're able to 1:36:39.280 --> 1:36:42.120 continue to invest in new artists and that's our mission. 1:36:42.160 --> 1:36:46.120 Our mandate with Fader Label is to sign career artists, 1:36:46.160 --> 1:36:50.320 whether it's to management or label, and really put in 1:36:50.360 --> 1:36:53.439 the time to have a five to ten year plan 1:36:53.720 --> 1:36:55.960 or horizon. You know, I remember you and I talking 1:36:55.960 --> 1:36:59.679 about it. It's so many artists don't make it because 1:36:59.720 --> 1:37:04.360 they don't have the perseverance they they they just they 1:37:04.439 --> 1:37:09.400 can't either survive financially, which is difficult, or they just 1:37:09.560 --> 1:37:13.240 can't take the years of lack of progress. And it's 1:37:13.520 --> 1:37:16.040 the name of the game for independent artists right now. 1:37:16.160 --> 1:37:18.800 It's it's you've got to be a great songwriter, you 1:37:18.880 --> 1:37:21.559 got to tour like crazy, but most importantly, you've got 1:37:21.600 --> 1:37:23.960 to have perseverance and time in the game. It's all 1:37:24.000 --> 1:37:28.960 about how much time you know you're willing to put 1:37:29.000 --> 1:37:32.760 to gradually establish your career. Now, yeah, some people do 1:37:32.800 --> 1:37:35.599 get lucky, they have a TikTok hit, they have some moment, 1:37:35.720 --> 1:37:39.360 but at the end of the day, it takes artists 1:37:39.479 --> 1:37:42.559 a long time to establish themselves. And that's that's our 1:37:42.600 --> 1:37:44.800 mentality of fat or Label is that we want to 1:37:44.840 --> 1:37:48.040 really partner with artists that want to stay in the 1:37:48.040 --> 1:37:51.200 game and our career artists. We're not looking to sign 1:37:52.040 --> 1:37:55.000 quick hitting songs. You know, obviously if they come along, 1:37:55.560 --> 1:37:58.839 it's nice because it will fund the next wave of signings. 1:37:58.880 --> 1:38:01.960 But our our rosters what we see as a bunch 1:38:02.000 --> 1:38:03.040 of career artists. 1:38:03.600 --> 1:38:07.160 Okay, how many of your artists are both on the 1:38:07.320 --> 1:38:09.439 label and also managed. 1:38:10.840 --> 1:38:15.840 There are four artists on the management roster, three of 1:38:15.880 --> 1:38:18.559 them we work with on the label side, Dell Water 1:38:18.600 --> 1:38:21.799 Gap as signed to Mom and Pop. We don't force 1:38:21.880 --> 1:38:25.040 that issue at all. We use our label as an 1:38:25.040 --> 1:38:27.920 option and our publishing entity as an option if a 1:38:28.000 --> 1:38:31.400 managed artist likes the control and wants it as a solution. 1:38:32.080 --> 1:38:36.519 We never commission the master side if we're managing them, 1:38:36.560 --> 1:38:40.479 so we keep that revenue stream separate. And we also 1:38:40.560 --> 1:38:42.800 can control the type of deal structures. So as an 1:38:42.840 --> 1:38:45.479 artist get bigger, if we build them on the label, 1:38:45.840 --> 1:38:47.800 we then have the option to go sign to a 1:38:47.840 --> 1:38:52.920 bigger label, another indie major if it's moreranted. So it 1:38:52.960 --> 1:38:55.200 gives us a lot of flexibility and I think where 1:38:55.240 --> 1:38:59.040 that used to be taboo in the business, I think 1:38:59.040 --> 1:39:01.799 you're seeing more and more or that artists and managers 1:39:02.040 --> 1:39:05.559 like the control. Doing everything under one roof enables you 1:39:05.600 --> 1:39:08.280 to call all the shots and makes the make the decisions. 1:39:09.120 --> 1:39:12.439 That's not taking anything away from you know. Partnering with 1:39:12.520 --> 1:39:15.160 another good label like Mom and Pop on the Dell 1:39:15.200 --> 1:39:18.880 water Gap side have been incredible partners. Love working with them. 1:39:19.040 --> 1:39:23.120 They're smart, they they spend money the right way and 1:39:23.280 --> 1:39:28.719 we'll invest heavily in our project and they work really hard. 1:39:28.800 --> 1:39:30.800 So that's an example of where it works. Sometimes you 1:39:30.840 --> 1:39:33.880 go to a major it doesn't always work, or another 1:39:33.920 --> 1:39:36.920 label it doesn't work, So we like the flex to 1:39:37.000 --> 1:39:38.240 have the ability to do both. 1:39:46.360 --> 1:39:54.520 Okay, is Fader label a farm team for the majors 1:39:55.040 --> 1:39:57.880 or is it a competitor to the majors. 1:39:58.479 --> 1:40:00.880 I like to say it's a competitor. I do not 1:40:01.080 --> 1:40:03.280 want to do their bidding and their dirty work. And 1:40:03.840 --> 1:40:07.639 you know, sometimes it fucking sucks being in our position, Bob, 1:40:07.720 --> 1:40:10.960 I don't have their budget. Claro is a great example. 1:40:11.080 --> 1:40:14.840 I don't you know. I don't have the ability to 1:40:15.000 --> 1:40:19.360 sign mega deals to keep some of these artists. And 1:40:19.920 --> 1:40:23.720 we give these artists such fair deal structures where the 1:40:23.840 --> 1:40:26.519 reason we beat a lot of majors to sign them 1:40:26.960 --> 1:40:30.880 is because our deal structure is very competitive. Unfortunately, that 1:40:30.920 --> 1:40:34.280 eventually puts you in a vulnerable position. And you know, 1:40:34.520 --> 1:40:37.840 when your deal structure is so artist friendly, you run 1:40:37.880 --> 1:40:41.040 the risk of someone coming along with a bigger check 1:40:41.160 --> 1:40:44.880 and a bigger opportunity. So we do see ourselves as 1:40:45.000 --> 1:40:48.360 competitors to the majors. Clearly, I don't have the catalog, 1:40:49.160 --> 1:40:52.280 or the budgets or the muscle that they have, but 1:40:52.400 --> 1:40:57.240 I do have an incredible young team who really live it, 1:40:57.360 --> 1:40:59.760 and they are so all of them are so good 1:40:59.800 --> 1:41:02.320 at their jobs, and they have such passion for what 1:41:02.360 --> 1:41:05.040 they do, and our artists work so closely with them, 1:41:05.760 --> 1:41:08.759 and we have a label head who's a manager first, 1:41:08.840 --> 1:41:10.920 and when artists come to Fader label, even if we 1:41:10.960 --> 1:41:14.200 don't manage them, we act as a second management team. 1:41:14.280 --> 1:41:18.000 We are there to supplement and help the existing management 1:41:18.080 --> 1:41:21.280 team on any aspect of the project. So, yes, we 1:41:21.320 --> 1:41:26.000 compete with the majors. And it's a really stricky business 1:41:26.000 --> 1:41:27.880 for us because a lot of times, after we do 1:41:28.000 --> 1:41:30.960 a couple albums we get an artist to the next level, 1:41:31.200 --> 1:41:33.839 we often do lose them because there's a big advance 1:41:33.960 --> 1:41:37.760 or something waiting. Occasionally they come back to us. We 1:41:37.840 --> 1:41:41.280 lost Matt and Kim to Harvest and Capital for an 1:41:41.320 --> 1:41:45.280 album and luckily, you know, after that didn't you know, 1:41:45.400 --> 1:41:48.080 hit the expectations they want. They came back. So occasionally 1:41:48.120 --> 1:41:50.920 that happens, and you know, we don't get bitter when 1:41:51.000 --> 1:41:53.200 we when we lose an artist or an artist moves on. 1:41:53.320 --> 1:41:57.120 We actually set up our deals knowing that that inevitably 1:41:57.280 --> 1:41:59.519 can is going to happen to us. The hope is 1:41:59.840 --> 1:42:03.040 if we do our job really well, everybody wins they 1:42:03.040 --> 1:42:04.160 want to continue with us. 1:42:04.360 --> 1:42:07.120 Let's say I make a deal with you, you're going 1:42:07.200 --> 1:42:10.080 to give me fifty percent of the net? Am I 1:42:10.120 --> 1:42:11.480 going to own the album? 1:42:12.560 --> 1:42:16.599 We do license deals, so yes, eventually, when I am 1:42:17.160 --> 1:42:22.120 long gone, you are going to own your masters again. 1:42:22.360 --> 1:42:25.920 And we try to do long term license deals, but 1:42:25.960 --> 1:42:29.559 not they're not like ridiculous when it's not like the 1:42:29.640 --> 1:42:31.800 artist is going to get it back when they're you know, 1:42:32.439 --> 1:42:37.640 seventy years old. They're they're very fair license deals, and 1:42:38.400 --> 1:42:41.240 you know, we need to give ourselves enough runway to 1:42:41.280 --> 1:42:44.320 recoup and get ourselves in a position to make the 1:42:44.360 --> 1:42:47.200 money we invest. But the artists will own their masters 1:42:47.240 --> 1:42:50.040 with fate or label. We don't do perpetuity deals. 1:42:50.520 --> 1:42:53.000 Okay. We have a couple of examples Matt and Kim 1:42:53.120 --> 1:42:56.120 Claro who are on majors and came back. Yep. I 1:42:56.160 --> 1:42:58.479 don't want to focus on those specifically. I want to 1:42:58.520 --> 1:43:01.720 ask the question, if somebody comes to you and you 1:43:01.920 --> 1:43:05.839 are not the only option, they are talking to other people, 1:43:06.400 --> 1:43:09.639 what is the pitch for the Feeder label? Why should 1:43:09.680 --> 1:43:10.640 they sign with you? 1:43:12.200 --> 1:43:16.400 They should sign with us because we have all of 1:43:16.439 --> 1:43:19.640 the infrastructure of a big label, Because we run a 1:43:19.760 --> 1:43:24.400 very vast corporation. We understand the brand partnership. We have 1:43:24.520 --> 1:43:27.880 a lot of creative resources across the entire company that 1:43:27.920 --> 1:43:34.520 we can tap, and we have a small, nimble team 1:43:34.680 --> 1:43:37.519 that is going to pay a lot more attention to 1:43:37.600 --> 1:43:40.479 that particular artist for release because we're only putting out 1:43:40.479 --> 1:43:42.800 a handful of records a year. I mean, we are 1:43:42.840 --> 1:43:46.559 not you know, we're not in a system that you're 1:43:46.600 --> 1:43:51.479 competing with you know, ten other priorities at any given time. 1:43:51.720 --> 1:43:54.559 We try to slot every one of our releases, so 1:43:54.640 --> 1:43:57.280 that is getting the sole attention of our label. So 1:43:58.040 --> 1:44:03.760 really good, strong, diverse infrastructure, excellent relationships where we can 1:44:03.800 --> 1:44:07.120 parlay all the relationships across the history of this company 1:44:07.439 --> 1:44:10.040 to talk to agents and festivals and all the key 1:44:10.160 --> 1:44:14.800 partners and music and the driving force is this amazing 1:44:15.160 --> 1:44:18.400 young team we have. You know, I you know what 1:44:18.520 --> 1:44:21.599 I learned really on in my career, it's that that 1:44:21.760 --> 1:44:24.920 young generation that drive our business. It's kind it's kind 1:44:24.920 --> 1:44:27.240 of what's broken in our business if you think about it. 1:44:27.479 --> 1:44:30.439 And I'm putting all the power of Fader label into 1:44:30.680 --> 1:44:32.880 sal our. A and R guy who is a former 1:44:32.920 --> 1:44:35.200 Fader writer who we made an A and R guy 1:44:35.600 --> 1:44:38.360 Carson who's a young manager who's now running a label 1:44:38.400 --> 1:44:41.640 as well, Sophia who heads up marketing, Rita who's our 1:44:41.680 --> 1:44:45.519 head of digital and project management. These are young people, 1:44:45.800 --> 1:44:49.280 all thirty or younger, that live, eat, and breathe the 1:44:49.320 --> 1:44:53.680 culture of what we're building around our roster, and I 1:44:53.720 --> 1:44:56.640 think there's something to be said about that energy and 1:44:56.640 --> 1:45:01.439 that hunger and that work ethic because they're peers of 1:45:01.520 --> 1:45:04.360 these artists and they're going to kill for them, and 1:45:04.840 --> 1:45:07.160 they are just as much as we're trying to establish 1:45:07.200 --> 1:45:09.720 the artist's career, I'm trying to establish their careers. I'm 1:45:09.720 --> 1:45:12.000 trying to teach them and mentor them the same way 1:45:12.000 --> 1:45:15.360 that I was mentored. And the idea is, you know, 1:45:15.600 --> 1:45:19.479 how we can make them really excel at their jobs 1:45:19.479 --> 1:45:21.840 and successful just as much as their artists, because if 1:45:21.840 --> 1:45:24.920 they become more powerful and more skilled and build better relationships, 1:45:25.240 --> 1:45:27.400 that's going to rub off on the success of our artists. 1:45:27.439 --> 1:45:30.799 So I think that's why people should should consider us 1:45:30.840 --> 1:45:34.080 as an option. It's we're a very different company than 1:45:34.120 --> 1:45:36.720 what's out there, even even the other indies we're competing with. 1:45:36.800 --> 1:45:38.840 We're just we come from a different mentality. 1:45:39.400 --> 1:45:42.840 You were saying that it's broken with young employees. What 1:45:42.880 --> 1:45:44.280 were you referencing. 1:45:44.560 --> 1:45:47.000 I, you know, our industry is a little broken. I 1:45:47.080 --> 1:45:50.440 think there's you know, this was This is an industry 1:45:50.920 --> 1:45:55.240 that I think the youth has to be empowered. You're 1:45:55.280 --> 1:45:57.759 starting to see that transition. We'll see how it works. 1:45:57.760 --> 1:46:01.559 And I'm not saying that older execus negatives should be out, 1:46:01.680 --> 1:46:04.599 but I think the older generation like myself and older 1:46:04.600 --> 1:46:07.680 executives have to do a better job of teaching and 1:46:07.800 --> 1:46:11.240 mentoring young talent, and then the industry has to start 1:46:11.280 --> 1:46:15.679 to empower the younger generation to take over. I think, 1:46:16.200 --> 1:46:20.240 you know, it's not just about the next TikTok. It's 1:46:20.280 --> 1:46:23.840 about people that are willing to go out and get 1:46:23.840 --> 1:46:25.880 their hands dirty and do the work. You know. I 1:46:25.960 --> 1:46:28.160 was with you, Bob in London and we were at 1:46:28.320 --> 1:46:31.479 Nile Horn, and the one thing that really blew me 1:46:31.520 --> 1:46:34.640 away is I love seeing you at two o'clock in 1:46:34.680 --> 1:46:38.120 the morning. We are there at Niles after party. It's 1:46:38.120 --> 1:46:40.680 the last show the tour, and you're still there and 1:46:40.720 --> 1:46:44.040 you're talking to people and you're engaging, and that to 1:46:44.160 --> 1:46:48.479 me is still in It may sound flippant, flippant or stupid, 1:46:48.800 --> 1:46:52.040 that is inherently what is most important in our business. 1:46:52.160 --> 1:46:56.120 It's being out and listening and seeing music and talking 1:46:56.120 --> 1:46:59.680 to people and engaging with people. And we need a 1:46:59.720 --> 1:47:03.559 general that isn't tired and is still willing to do that, 1:47:03.640 --> 1:47:07.840 because that's where the fundamental is. This business doesn't change. 1:47:07.880 --> 1:47:09.559 And we live in a world where everyone's on their 1:47:09.640 --> 1:47:12.960 phones and they're so quick to think that they can 1:47:13.000 --> 1:47:16.880 stay plugged in because they're watching TikTok and social media. 1:47:17.040 --> 1:47:19.320 And you know, I watched you in that room. You 1:47:19.360 --> 1:47:22.000 and I were two of the older dudes there. We 1:47:22.000 --> 1:47:24.960 were the last men standing. And I think that is 1:47:24.960 --> 1:47:28.040 a lost art in our business. People have gotten tired 1:47:28.160 --> 1:47:31.679 or they've gotten complacent with how digital things have become. 1:47:31.920 --> 1:47:34.679 And to me, in the music industry is all about 1:47:34.680 --> 1:47:37.640 being present and being out there and being immersed in 1:47:37.680 --> 1:47:40.880 the culture. And that's what I pride myself on doing 1:47:40.960 --> 1:47:43.360 and leading by example. That's what I'm trying to push 1:47:43.360 --> 1:47:46.439 our staff to do. And it's hard. It's harder. Even 1:47:46.560 --> 1:47:49.160 young people are a little tired of doing it. But 1:47:49.280 --> 1:47:53.360 I think that's what makes the big successes separate of 1:47:53.400 --> 1:47:56.000 those people that are having moderate success and they're in 1:47:56.080 --> 1:47:59.519 the scene, they're willing to to stay out there and 1:47:59.760 --> 1:48:02.719 they're curious and they're asking the questions and meeting people 1:48:02.760 --> 1:48:05.519 and watching with their own eyes, not on their on 1:48:05.560 --> 1:48:06.280 their cell phones. 1:48:07.000 --> 1:48:10.000 Okay, you say that the Fader label has a relationship 1:48:10.040 --> 1:48:13.759 with Virgin, What does that look like and does Virgin 1:48:13.880 --> 1:48:17.439 have the right to sort of pick up on artists 1:48:17.520 --> 1:48:19.920 you have success with or is it straight distribution or 1:48:19.920 --> 1:48:21.640 are they providing any other services. 1:48:22.720 --> 1:48:26.840 They are a straight distributor, so we fund everything ourselves, 1:48:26.920 --> 1:48:30.120 We own everything out right. They take a percentage of 1:48:30.160 --> 1:48:35.320 our gross revenue. They help us with DSPs and placement 1:48:35.439 --> 1:48:39.960 of the songs. They will help us sometimes will upstream 1:48:40.080 --> 1:48:43.080 certain marketing services. We don't upstream records to them, but 1:48:43.160 --> 1:48:46.840 we will, you know, use some of their services if 1:48:46.880 --> 1:48:52.040 we need some help either globally in other areas. And 1:48:52.080 --> 1:48:54.200 it's hard, I mean, Virgin is part of a major 1:48:54.280 --> 1:48:57.360 label system and they've just merged the company with three 1:48:57.400 --> 1:49:01.720 other companies. And my fear with all of the indie distributors, 1:49:01.760 --> 1:49:06.280 not just Virgin, is that they're so consolidated and we're 1:49:06.280 --> 1:49:10.000 competing with so many other releases, and we're competing for attention, 1:49:10.840 --> 1:49:15.400 and there is not a true indie focused system out 1:49:15.400 --> 1:49:17.920 there right now, and it's really it's concerning for me. 1:49:17.960 --> 1:49:19.840 I mean, Virgin has been a great partner, They've done 1:49:19.920 --> 1:49:23.240 great work. I think as they complete the merger of 1:49:23.320 --> 1:49:25.760 these other companies that they merge with, they're going to 1:49:25.800 --> 1:49:28.840 get stronger and better. But my concern is that there 1:49:28.880 --> 1:49:35.680 are not a true indie distribution resource. It is a 1:49:35.840 --> 1:49:39.639 conglomerate of a lot of different companies that are all 1:49:39.680 --> 1:49:42.040 merged into one, and all of a sudden, we find 1:49:42.040 --> 1:49:47.280 ourselves competing with tons of releases for attention. And I 1:49:47.320 --> 1:49:49.280 think our philosophy is we got to try to become 1:49:49.280 --> 1:49:53.080 as self sufficient as we can and take what's best 1:49:53.080 --> 1:49:56.080 out of that system and really rely on ourselves for 1:49:56.479 --> 1:49:59.240 everything else. But because the major label system is it's 1:49:59.280 --> 1:50:01.559 at a real cross at least when it comes to indies. 1:50:02.040 --> 1:50:05.799 They're all these labels are in more of the artist's business. 1:50:05.880 --> 1:50:09.240 They are doing as many direct deals with the artists themselves. 1:50:09.320 --> 1:50:13.360 They're giving artists bigger percentages of their revenue, They're fronting 1:50:13.400 --> 1:50:15.880 them cash. THEA walls of the world are doing a 1:50:15.880 --> 1:50:18.559 great job of it. Virgins starting to do more of this, 1:50:18.800 --> 1:50:22.240 and my fear is they want to be as direct, 1:50:22.800 --> 1:50:26.799 thus becoming competitors to our model, and it's a concern 1:50:26.880 --> 1:50:30.320 to us. And you know, I believe that there's a 1:50:30.400 --> 1:50:33.200 role for us within these systems. But I'm trying to 1:50:33.200 --> 1:50:34.839 figure out what is that way forward. 1:50:35.600 --> 1:50:42.240 Okay, traditional labels, the three majors in their different divisions, 1:50:43.240 --> 1:50:48.040 they are really at this laid date heavily focused on radio. Radio. 1:50:48.200 --> 1:50:51.479 Terrestrial radio has a smaller share of mind share than 1:50:51.479 --> 1:50:56.280 ever before. It's kind of like people advertising on network television. Yes, 1:50:56.439 --> 1:51:00.840 fewer viewers, but it's got more mass than others. You 1:51:01.560 --> 1:51:07.000 own a label, ay, what is your view on radio? 1:51:07.520 --> 1:51:10.519 What is your view on where the majors are putting 1:51:10.560 --> 1:51:12.679 the reference and where you're putting your reference. 1:51:14.360 --> 1:51:17.799 You know, I used to work radio. I still listen 1:51:17.840 --> 1:51:20.960 and get turned on to a lot of music via radio. 1:51:21.040 --> 1:51:23.720 I love listening to six Music. I love listening to 1:51:24.320 --> 1:51:27.520 Zane Lowe's show on Apple Music. I love Sirius XMU 1:51:27.680 --> 1:51:32.280 on Sirius. I mean radio for me, if you find 1:51:32.280 --> 1:51:34.880 the right sources have always been really useful in a 1:51:34.880 --> 1:51:37.400 great way to keep me in the no. But radio 1:51:37.479 --> 1:51:40.680 is completely irrelevant to a young generation right now, and 1:51:40.720 --> 1:51:46.559 it's radio's own fault. Radio didn't evolve. Radio basically latched 1:51:46.600 --> 1:51:51.479 onto this older demographic and played the ratings game when 1:51:51.479 --> 1:51:56.599 they could have really rebuilt and rebranded themselves. And now 1:51:56.600 --> 1:51:59.720 you're faced with a generation that just doesn't care. They 1:51:59.760 --> 1:52:02.000 are not listening to radio at all. They're listening to 1:52:02.080 --> 1:52:06.879 Spotify or Apple Music, or they're finding music on TikTok, 1:52:06.920 --> 1:52:11.559 they're finding music on reels, YouTube, YouTube shorts, and I 1:52:11.600 --> 1:52:16.240 think radio is really only capturing a much older audience. 1:52:17.280 --> 1:52:20.439 Pop radio maybe has more impact than some of the 1:52:20.479 --> 1:52:24.639 other formats. Maybe specialty shows and mix shows make some impact, 1:52:24.640 --> 1:52:29.600 but I don't think radio as a driver for commerce 1:52:30.160 --> 1:52:33.960 to develop new artists has anywhere the same impact. I 1:52:34.000 --> 1:52:37.640 do think there are offshoots of radio that can can 1:52:37.680 --> 1:52:41.719 be helpful and useful, but I think the major labels 1:52:41.720 --> 1:52:44.120 play that game. We don't invest in it. You know, 1:52:44.520 --> 1:52:46.880 we invested in it with Claro back in the day. 1:52:47.320 --> 1:52:50.040 Occasionally we'll take a shot. We don't really see en 1:52:50.080 --> 1:52:52.519 up tick in our streams that's commensurate to the amount 1:52:52.520 --> 1:52:55.720 of money you just spent. It will help touring, it 1:52:55.760 --> 1:52:59.760 will help awareness. I just don't think radio isn't a 1:52:59.760 --> 1:53:03.160 good place right now. And I think they they could 1:53:03.240 --> 1:53:07.080 have reinvented themselves in so many ways, and you know 1:53:07.560 --> 1:53:10.280 I didn't. I don't root for radio's failure. I'd love 1:53:10.320 --> 1:53:13.520 to see radio turning around. But radio's gotta just get innovatives, 1:53:13.560 --> 1:53:16.519 and right now there's no innovation with the way they're 1:53:16.640 --> 1:53:18.240 they're going about their business. 1:53:18.479 --> 1:53:23.120 Okay, so let's say I sign to you, what are 1:53:23.160 --> 1:53:23.920 you gonna do for me? 1:53:25.920 --> 1:53:29.559 We are going to build a strategy that includes the 1:53:29.600 --> 1:53:32.680 follow up number number one, We're gonna get the music right. 1:53:32.960 --> 1:53:37.639 First thing we're gonna do is hear what your vision 1:53:37.800 --> 1:53:40.920 is for your music. You know, what do you like, 1:53:41.040 --> 1:53:43.000 who do you respect, what kind of music you want 1:53:43.000 --> 1:53:46.320 to make. Let's find the right sessions and get you 1:53:46.360 --> 1:53:49.680 in the studio to get you some experience. Let's get 1:53:49.880 --> 1:53:53.680 you know, Bob a session with so and so and 1:53:53.760 --> 1:53:55.679 see how it goes, See what you can learn from 1:53:55.680 --> 1:53:57.960 that session, and let's start to make some early music. 1:53:58.160 --> 1:54:00.519 Would probably start by putting out a handful of singles 1:54:01.120 --> 1:54:03.960 or mapping out a few EP projects before we speed 1:54:04.479 --> 1:54:06.960 for racing to build an album. And then the most 1:54:07.000 --> 1:54:09.840 important thing is as we're doing that and we're developing 1:54:09.880 --> 1:54:13.400 your craft and your writing, we are working on making 1:54:13.479 --> 1:54:16.880 sure you can perform live the biggest lost art in music, 1:54:17.000 --> 1:54:20.080 and the one constant that hasn't changed in all the 1:54:20.160 --> 1:54:22.240 years I've been doing this is you have to be 1:54:22.240 --> 1:54:25.280 a great songwriter and you really have to play live 1:54:25.400 --> 1:54:27.280 and be willing to do the work to tour. And 1:54:27.320 --> 1:54:30.080 I don't care if we start you playing to fifty 1:54:30.120 --> 1:54:32.600 people all night. We've got to start to establish you 1:54:32.640 --> 1:54:36.160 as a live act. As that's happening, We're then working 1:54:36.200 --> 1:54:39.480 on the imagery's let's hear your creative vision. What's your 1:54:39.480 --> 1:54:41.400 look and feel? How do we want to style you? 1:54:41.440 --> 1:54:43.680 What do you want the photos to look. How do 1:54:43.760 --> 1:54:46.959 we help rebuild and work with you on your social channels? 1:54:47.040 --> 1:54:51.440 What message can we convey about you and who you are, 1:54:51.600 --> 1:54:54.800 where you come from? What inspire you on your social channels? 1:54:54.840 --> 1:54:58.560 How are we using TikTok verse Instagram? How are we 1:54:59.240 --> 1:55:02.280 you know, bang the right content and shooting the right 1:55:02.320 --> 1:55:05.440 content within a reasonable budget. So over the course of 1:55:05.480 --> 1:55:08.440 these next six months to a year, we're parceling out 1:55:08.760 --> 1:55:12.840 content at a regular cadence. It's probably too soon for 1:55:12.880 --> 1:55:14.920 a new artist to have brand partnerships, but I want 1:55:15.000 --> 1:55:17.720 to get an idea of what a what are your brands? 1:55:17.760 --> 1:55:19.200 What do you like what do you what do you 1:55:19.880 --> 1:55:23.000 like fashion wise? What sneakers do you wear? What do 1:55:23.040 --> 1:55:25.360 you drink? Where are you from? How do we tell 1:55:25.360 --> 1:55:27.720 a story about where you're from and the influence of 1:55:27.760 --> 1:55:30.720 that market that's around you? And then who are the 1:55:30.840 --> 1:55:33.840 artists that are in your periphery. The best way to 1:55:33.880 --> 1:55:37.360 break a young artist right now is collaboration or getting 1:55:37.360 --> 1:55:39.960 the uplift from another artist. If I think back to Clara, 1:55:40.520 --> 1:55:45.280 you know, she was incredible because she she had such 1:55:45.320 --> 1:55:48.760 good taste, She had such an amazing frame of reference 1:55:48.800 --> 1:55:51.760 for a young kid. You know, she was a music historian, 1:55:52.360 --> 1:55:55.800 and artists started seeking her out. They would find her online, 1:55:56.040 --> 1:55:58.160 they would see what she was listening to or posting 1:55:58.240 --> 1:56:02.000 or playing, and she would get you call dms from 1:56:02.320 --> 1:56:05.520 incredible artists because they liked her taste, they liked the 1:56:05.520 --> 1:56:08.520 way she established herself. And as I got to know her, 1:56:08.880 --> 1:56:11.880 I was like, Wow, the DNA of her is not 1:56:11.960 --> 1:56:14.040 only what a great songwriter she is, or what a 1:56:14.040 --> 1:56:16.320 great performer she is, or the fact that she wanted 1:56:16.360 --> 1:56:19.400 to learn and play as many instruments as herself, but 1:56:19.480 --> 1:56:22.720 it was her frame of history. She knew so much 1:56:22.880 --> 1:56:26.800 about music. Does not get enough credit for what a 1:56:26.840 --> 1:56:29.720 great music mind she has, and what a student she 1:56:29.840 --> 1:56:32.880 is of music. She names her dog Joni, after Joni Mitchell. 1:56:32.880 --> 1:56:35.360 And if I'm pointing to the things that make her successful, 1:56:35.680 --> 1:56:39.000 it's all of those combined. She was a student of 1:56:39.080 --> 1:56:42.400 music and really knew her history, and really pushed herself 1:56:42.440 --> 1:56:44.120 to listen to a lot of things. And I'm not 1:56:44.240 --> 1:56:48.920 just talking current peers, but really did the work. Was 1:56:48.960 --> 1:56:53.200 always writing songs, always doing sessions, and then to her credit, 1:56:54.160 --> 1:56:56.920 pushed herself so hard on the road to the point 1:56:57.040 --> 1:56:59.760 that she really exhausted herself. If I think of Dell 1:56:59.800 --> 1:57:04.120 wa and why, ten years into our career, he is 1:57:04.200 --> 1:57:06.880 so successful in doing what he's doing, He's like the 1:57:06.920 --> 1:57:09.160 next one. He is so on the verge, Bob of 1:57:09.280 --> 1:57:14.000 being our industry's next big artist. It's because he bled 1:57:14.280 --> 1:57:17.680 and did the hard work for ten years. This kid 1:57:18.080 --> 1:57:23.680 has toured, relentlessly, paid money out of his own success, 1:57:23.720 --> 1:57:25.920 like the money that he should be living off, to 1:57:26.040 --> 1:57:29.840 downsize his lifestyle, to reinvest in touring, to write, to 1:57:29.920 --> 1:57:32.480 do sessions. So if to answer your question about what 1:57:32.480 --> 1:57:34.760 I'm going to do for you, it's can I instill 1:57:34.800 --> 1:57:37.920 that work ethic in you? Can I inspire you and 1:57:38.000 --> 1:57:39.920 help give you the tools to be a good writer. 1:57:40.280 --> 1:57:43.880 But more importantly, can we establish that live act and 1:57:43.920 --> 1:57:46.280 can we give you a little bit of that experience 1:57:46.320 --> 1:57:49.160 and frame of reference so you really have the basis 1:57:49.600 --> 1:57:52.840 to build, you know, the career that you want, and 1:57:53.280 --> 1:57:56.720 it just takes time. Then from there, it's lots of 1:57:56.760 --> 1:58:00.000 little steps. It's you know, I have so many artists 1:58:00.320 --> 1:58:03.240 that the p and ls don't look great, that the 1:58:03.360 --> 1:58:06.640 growth is slow, but lots of little things add up 1:58:06.680 --> 1:58:08.720 and then you know, you know, then you then you 1:58:08.800 --> 1:58:10.720 break through to a Clara, then you start seeing the 1:58:10.760 --> 1:58:14.000 success of Adull Water Gap. It happens, but it's time 1:58:14.080 --> 1:58:16.240 in the game. It's like I said earlier, you gotta 1:58:16.720 --> 1:58:20.080 you gotta keep in the game. And over time, if 1:58:20.120 --> 1:58:22.520 you're just making that little progress, you're going to start 1:58:22.520 --> 1:58:23.120 to break through. 1:58:23.880 --> 1:58:28.040 Okay, the majors are focused on pop and hip hop. 1:58:28.680 --> 1:58:31.200 What is the status of rock and what is the 1:58:31.240 --> 1:58:32.720 status of other genres? 1:58:34.120 --> 1:58:38.000 You know, I think rock music is way healthier than 1:58:38.840 --> 1:58:42.160 anyone gives it credit. You know, I mean I love 1:58:42.200 --> 1:58:44.560 reading all your stuff. You're you're really I love your 1:58:44.600 --> 1:58:48.360 take on on this how it comes up every few years. 1:58:48.960 --> 1:58:52.680 But if you look at careers right now, there are 1:58:52.880 --> 1:58:57.120 so many careers in rock music. Maybe if you're going 1:58:57.240 --> 1:59:01.960 to measure the success relative to Chapel Rowan or Taylor Swift, 1:59:02.160 --> 1:59:04.920 it doesn't look the same. But if you look at 1:59:05.040 --> 1:59:09.400 Fontane's DC, Bob right now signed to Excel Records, Irish 1:59:09.480 --> 1:59:13.200 band like they are, They're a rock band that is 1:59:13.400 --> 1:59:17.320 really succeeding. It's not about radio. It's about the fact 1:59:17.320 --> 1:59:20.800 that they toured like crazy. They've got lots of press 1:59:20.840 --> 1:59:23.040 love for whatever that means. I'm not quite sure how 1:59:23.120 --> 1:59:25.520 much it moves the needle. You know, we've talked about that, 1:59:25.560 --> 1:59:29.040 you've written about that. They've done all the little things, 1:59:29.080 --> 1:59:32.560 but most importantly, they've built a direct pipeline to fans 1:59:32.560 --> 1:59:36.520 through touring. And Fontane's DC is a rock band that 1:59:36.680 --> 1:59:40.600 is really succeeding and breaking through in a big way. 1:59:40.760 --> 1:59:43.760 And I think I think rock music. You know, you 1:59:43.800 --> 1:59:48.200 look at Noah Com, you look at Zach Bryan, country rock, 1:59:48.240 --> 1:59:51.160 whatever you want to call them, Like, there are plenty 1:59:51.200 --> 1:59:53.120 of artists. You look at McGee right now. I don't 1:59:53.120 --> 1:59:54.680 know if you know this kid McGee. You know he's 1:59:54.680 --> 1:59:58.320 playing New York tonight, But like he comes from Dejon's camp, 1:59:58.400 --> 2:00:02.800 great guitar player, like very modest streaming numbers, but he's 2:00:03.080 --> 2:00:05.800 he's selling out Terminal five tonight. He sold out the 2:00:05.840 --> 2:00:09.640 Brooklyn Paramount on Sunday. These are rock based artists that 2:00:09.720 --> 2:00:12.080 are so under the industry's radar, and we all talk 2:00:12.120 --> 2:00:14.680 about the death of rock. Rock is dead, and these 2:00:14.680 --> 2:00:18.000 are young kids coming to see them. They're selling tickets, 2:00:18.400 --> 2:00:22.800 they're streaming, they have buzz and they have These aren't 2:00:22.840 --> 2:00:26.760 just moments, these are gonna be careers. And I really 2:00:26.800 --> 2:00:29.560 think rock is in the best place it's been in 2:00:29.600 --> 2:00:33.400 a long time. I think that pop music has become 2:00:33.400 --> 2:00:37.120 an amalgamation of lots of genres. You know, noa con 2:00:37.440 --> 2:00:41.400 of pop artists. But he's really a folky rock artist 2:00:41.480 --> 2:00:45.480 at heart. And I think even Taylor Swift, as pop 2:00:45.520 --> 2:00:48.520 as she is, she's a songwriter, singer songwriter. At the 2:00:49.760 --> 2:00:54.920 core of what she does is pop, folk leaning country music. 2:00:55.000 --> 2:00:57.160 And I think rock is in a strong place. I 2:00:57.200 --> 2:00:59.920 think hip hop's in a more of a transitionary place. 2:01:00.080 --> 2:01:03.320 I think hip hop is it's it's the passing of 2:01:03.360 --> 2:01:06.080 a torch to a new generation. And it's the question 2:01:06.160 --> 2:01:07.680 with hip hop is who are going to be the 2:01:07.720 --> 2:01:11.600 new stars. You know, Kendrick's clearly the leader right now, 2:01:11.640 --> 2:01:15.160 and he's an icon, and he's amazing, and he's doing 2:01:15.200 --> 2:01:18.160 good things and he's saying good things, and I love 2:01:18.200 --> 2:01:20.600 that he's doing the super Bowl. But the question in 2:01:20.720 --> 2:01:23.440 hip hop is, Okay, who's the next you know, who 2:01:23.800 --> 2:01:25.840 are the next leaders? You know, there are plenty of 2:01:26.200 --> 2:01:29.200 really good young hip hop acts, but are they going 2:01:29.280 --> 2:01:32.480 to be the heir to the Drake Kendrick throne. You know, 2:01:32.720 --> 2:01:36.160 Playboy Cardi doing really well, but he's he going to 2:01:36.240 --> 2:01:41.080 be that that major hip hop icon. I think music's 2:01:41.080 --> 2:01:44.760 in a good place, though, The question becomes, you know, 2:01:45.440 --> 2:01:47.920 does rock music continue this run? Because I think rock 2:01:48.000 --> 2:01:50.800 music is really in a better place than it's been 2:01:50.840 --> 2:01:51.320 in years. 2:01:52.200 --> 2:01:55.760 Okay, let's talk about music in general. In the sixties, 2:01:56.640 --> 2:02:00.440 FM and before that, AM where everything you want to 2:02:00.520 --> 2:02:02.080 know what was going on in the world. He turned 2:02:02.120 --> 2:02:05.480 on the radio. That grew into the seventies and the eighties. 2:02:05.520 --> 2:02:10.160 We had MTV. We have the explosion of television with 2:02:10.520 --> 2:02:14.400 the Sopranos in nineteen ninety nine, so we have this 2:02:14.560 --> 2:02:20.680 burgeoning streaming television, We have social media, and we have music. 2:02:21.800 --> 2:02:25.320 Where does music fit into the cultural world. Let me 2:02:25.520 --> 2:02:28.520 set it up. A lot of people in this business 2:02:28.560 --> 2:02:32.000 will say, same as it ever was, you know, the 2:02:32.080 --> 2:02:34.560 young people feel the same way, it's as good as 2:02:34.600 --> 2:02:38.560 it ever was. I believe that's patently untrue. Listen, I 2:02:38.600 --> 2:02:41.560 lived through the Beatles. Whatever Taylor Swift is and it's big, 2:02:41.640 --> 2:02:47.560 it's not the Beatles. Okay, So we're is music today 2:02:48.000 --> 2:02:54.120 and what might music change to further its place in 2:02:54.240 --> 2:02:54.880 the firmament. 2:02:56.120 --> 2:02:59.520 Yeah, I'm more aligned with your thinking. We don't have 2:02:59.840 --> 2:03:04.400 the Beatles. We don't have Heyday peak Michael Jackson. We 2:03:04.440 --> 2:03:08.800 don't have Heyday peak Springsteen. You know, like I think 2:03:09.160 --> 2:03:12.760 we have stars they're doing well. We have kids that 2:03:12.800 --> 2:03:16.120 are growing up with passion for music. The problem with 2:03:16.880 --> 2:03:21.400 the media landscape when it relates to the establishing music, 2:03:22.080 --> 2:03:25.280 it is so quick and disposable. We live in a 2:03:25.360 --> 2:03:28.680 forty second clip world or a fifteen second clip world. 2:03:28.720 --> 2:03:33.360 Like kids are so passionate about a song, but then 2:03:33.400 --> 2:03:36.200 it goes away. I mean, you know, like there are 2:03:36.240 --> 2:03:39.320 so many big moments. The question is are they going 2:03:39.360 --> 2:03:42.800 to be lasting moments? You know, Like I think you know, 2:03:42.840 --> 2:03:47.040 the question is the medium that's delivering a lot of 2:03:47.080 --> 2:03:51.040 these kids, the exposure to this music. It's it's not 2:03:51.280 --> 2:03:56.000 set up to resonate from a career standpoint. Even the festivals, 2:03:56.720 --> 2:04:00.640 which you know they're in a transitionary period, are being 2:04:00.760 --> 2:04:04.560 programmed more with that mentality. The festival lineups are being 2:04:04.560 --> 2:04:07.360 built around more of a TikTok mentality, and you have 2:04:07.480 --> 2:04:11.360 kids winding up for one artist for one moment in 2:04:11.400 --> 2:04:13.480 one song, and then that song comes and then they're 2:04:13.520 --> 2:04:16.600 moving to the next one. You know, Chapaaran's kind of 2:04:16.960 --> 2:04:20.320 transcended all that. She's proven like, maybe I can be 2:04:20.760 --> 2:04:23.120 an artist that broke that moment, but I got the 2:04:23.160 --> 2:04:26.400 kids paying attention to everything I'm doing. But I think 2:04:26.520 --> 2:04:29.840 we're in a very precarious position to establish the next 2:04:29.840 --> 2:04:33.400 Beatles or the next wave of superstars, because right now 2:04:34.120 --> 2:04:37.880 media is in this mentality. However, you know, you did 2:04:38.000 --> 2:04:41.360 your whole round about super fans and super fandom and 2:04:41.360 --> 2:04:44.520 how that insight was gotten wrong by Universal. I do 2:04:44.640 --> 2:04:49.040 think that there is a hunger from the music consumer 2:04:49.600 --> 2:04:53.080 to be a super fan. That is there. Maybe on 2:04:53.120 --> 2:04:55.200 a business level, a lot of the major players are 2:04:55.200 --> 2:04:57.640 getting that wrong, and I do agree with your take 2:04:57.680 --> 2:04:59.760 on that, But I do think and I see it 2:04:59.800 --> 2:05:02.360 Man del Water Gap. I see it from working with 2:05:02.440 --> 2:05:04.320 Clara all these past years, and I went to her 2:05:04.360 --> 2:05:07.640 show the other night, which was absolutely fucking incredible. There 2:05:07.720 --> 2:05:11.960 is a passion that artists have for the artists they love, 2:05:12.280 --> 2:05:15.880 and a willingness to go so much deeper into into 2:05:15.920 --> 2:05:19.640 that artist. And that's something that I think today's media 2:05:19.720 --> 2:05:22.600 landscape is helping. And if we can make fans want 2:05:22.600 --> 2:05:25.200 to go deeper and learn more about those artists and 2:05:25.240 --> 2:05:29.120 buy more merchant and buy vinyl and buy tickets, I 2:05:29.480 --> 2:05:31.760 do think we're going to head to a place where 2:05:31.840 --> 2:05:34.400 we may never have a Beatles again, but we're going 2:05:34.480 --> 2:05:37.240 to have career artists. You know. Noah CON's got that, 2:05:38.560 --> 2:05:41.640 Charlie FCX, at least in the major cities. I don't 2:05:41.640 --> 2:05:43.560 know if it's working in the Midwest, but I know 2:05:43.720 --> 2:05:46.560 like in New York she played MSG this week and 2:05:46.600 --> 2:05:48.480 it was one of the hottest tickets of the year 2:05:48.640 --> 2:05:51.480 in New York City, Like, you could not get a ticket, 2:05:51.600 --> 2:05:54.680 you know, even even industry people struggle to get, you know, 2:05:55.000 --> 2:05:57.720 tickets that so, you know, and that's a ten year 2:05:58.480 --> 2:06:01.160 plus career of the making. Maybe I think she started 2:06:01.160 --> 2:06:06.120 in twenty twelve, So I do think that media has 2:06:06.160 --> 2:06:09.120 made it a lot harder, and kids attention span is 2:06:09.120 --> 2:06:12.080 a little more disposable and they're not going as deep. 2:06:12.360 --> 2:06:15.600 But the few people that latch onto an act and 2:06:15.680 --> 2:06:19.000 fall in love with that favorite act are going deeper. 2:06:19.640 --> 2:06:23.640 The problem is how big can can those acts become? 2:06:23.880 --> 2:06:26.200 You know, Taylor Swift an anomaly. You know you're not 2:06:26.200 --> 2:06:30.280 gonna have many of those. I find it pretty mind 2:06:30.320 --> 2:06:35.280 blowing that the buzziest tour of twenty twenty four the 2:06:35.320 --> 2:06:38.800 Oasis reading. I mean, the the mania for that. And 2:06:38.840 --> 2:06:43.760 it's not just old britpop fans like me or British people. 2:06:44.080 --> 2:06:47.280 I mean, there are so many kids asking me for 2:06:47.400 --> 2:06:52.400 tickets or are curious. And you know that's the Internet 2:06:52.480 --> 2:06:55.800 driving that, that's TikTok driving that. That is there is 2:06:55.840 --> 2:06:59.360 a curiosity. The problem is it moves so fast. And 2:06:59.400 --> 2:07:01.920 what's beautiful all about the Beatle and a lot of 2:07:01.960 --> 2:07:03.720 stuff that you and I grew up listening to and 2:07:03.760 --> 2:07:06.360 how we discovered music. We had to work for it, 2:07:06.920 --> 2:07:09.000 and you had to take your time, and you had 2:07:09.040 --> 2:07:11.760 to put a piece of vinyl on the turntable or 2:07:11.800 --> 2:07:13.600 go to the record store buy it, or you had 2:07:13.600 --> 2:07:16.400 to line up for a ticket. I'm not saying we 2:07:16.440 --> 2:07:19.120 should go backwards to that, but when you had to 2:07:19.200 --> 2:07:21.920 put in that kind of commitment and you've got to 2:07:21.960 --> 2:07:26.120 slow the process down, it made that connection to that 2:07:26.240 --> 2:07:29.240 music so much deeper. There's got to be a version 2:07:29.280 --> 2:07:32.840 of that connection that comes from all of the new 2:07:32.920 --> 2:07:38.200 media evolution. It's just a question of will it be 2:07:38.480 --> 2:07:41.240 lasting or is it gonna even get quicker, or is 2:07:41.280 --> 2:07:43.840 AI going to even fuck it up more? Or our 2:07:43.920 --> 2:07:47.000 algorithm is gonna take us so much further that that's 2:07:47.040 --> 2:07:49.520 still I'm sorry to not have a conclusive answer. 2:07:49.720 --> 2:07:52.160 No, No, that that's a good answer, better answer than most. 2:07:52.880 --> 2:07:56.879 Let me ask you this, is there a number where 2:07:57.400 --> 2:08:01.520 you'd sell move on, sit on the each or are 2:08:01.560 --> 2:08:03.360 you going to be eighty five years old? So, man, 2:08:03.400 --> 2:08:05.480 I just heard a great record. You know, let's get 2:08:05.480 --> 2:08:06.280 the team together. 2:08:10.120 --> 2:08:12.880 I want to do it till I'm I'm eighty five 2:08:12.960 --> 2:08:14.920 years old, but I got to be I have to 2:08:14.920 --> 2:08:19.160 be realistic. I'm in a business that they don't want 2:08:19.160 --> 2:08:22.240 to hear from me at my age anymore. I need 2:08:22.280 --> 2:08:25.680 to be the strategist and the advisor, and I need 2:08:25.720 --> 2:08:29.640 to have the ego, the humility and not have the 2:08:29.680 --> 2:08:33.920 ego to put the business in the young people's hands. 2:08:34.000 --> 2:08:37.040 That that's the downfall of so many in our business. 2:08:38.240 --> 2:08:41.800 You know, I think I want to stay involved forever. 2:08:42.040 --> 2:08:44.960 I'm not tired. I love what I do. I love 2:08:45.000 --> 2:08:48.280 the music. My favorite thing is being with our artists, 2:08:48.280 --> 2:08:51.160 you know. I love, you know, being on the road 2:08:51.200 --> 2:08:53.840 with Dell water Gap this past year, touring with him 2:08:53.880 --> 2:08:57.600 and watching his evolution is one of the most enjoyable 2:08:57.640 --> 2:09:00.280 things I get to do in my job and my career. 2:09:00.320 --> 2:09:04.000 I love when Damon Albarne calls me up and asks 2:09:04.040 --> 2:09:06.120 me to come here what he's working on for Gorillas. 2:09:06.160 --> 2:09:09.280 I love going to say I declare even though we 2:09:09.320 --> 2:09:12.240 don't work together on this new current project. Going backstage 2:09:12.240 --> 2:09:16.520 and seeing her face after she just played ten sold 2:09:16.560 --> 2:09:19.600 out residency dates in New York and LA and seeing 2:09:19.640 --> 2:09:22.360 how happy she is with the react That means the 2:09:22.400 --> 2:09:25.640 world to me. The stuff that drives me nuts. The 2:09:25.680 --> 2:09:29.080 reason I have all this gray hair is the business 2:09:29.160 --> 2:09:33.040 is hard. It's challenging as fuck. And the agency business, 2:09:33.200 --> 2:09:36.560 the media business. I want to see them thrive, and 2:09:36.600 --> 2:09:39.840 it's it's been relentlessly hard to keep them even going 2:09:39.840 --> 2:09:42.760 at the levels that we are. So I have to 2:09:42.760 --> 2:09:45.800 be realistic about where all these businesses are going and 2:09:45.800 --> 2:09:47.880 what to do. But I want to keep doing it forever. 2:09:48.120 --> 2:09:50.960 I don't want to bail, but at some point I 2:09:51.000 --> 2:09:53.880 want to make sure I empower the youth of our 2:09:53.960 --> 2:09:57.120 company and the future is set up because it's a 2:09:57.160 --> 2:09:59.760 young people's business, and I think the best people in 2:09:59.800 --> 2:10:04.000 our business really empower that next generation and support them, 2:10:04.000 --> 2:10:05.240 and that's what I need to do. 2:10:06.640 --> 2:10:10.520 John, this has been wonderful. Thanks so much for spending 2:10:10.560 --> 2:10:13.440 this time with my audience, with the history and the insight. 2:10:14.120 --> 2:10:17.040 I certainly really appreciate it. I'm sure the listeners will too. 2:10:18.080 --> 2:10:20.480 Yeah, Bob, thanks for having me. It was great to 2:10:20.560 --> 2:10:24.000 spend a couple hours with you, and congrats on all 2:10:24.040 --> 2:10:26.240 you do. Keep it going. I want you doing it 2:10:26.280 --> 2:10:28.480 to your one hundred too. I want to keep reading 2:10:28.480 --> 2:10:28.960 what you're doing. 2:10:29.040 --> 2:10:31.040 Oh, believe me, I'm going to do it till I die. 2:10:31.880 --> 2:10:33.480 All right, I'll see you. I'll see you in London 2:10:33.520 --> 2:10:33.960 against you. 2:10:34.320 --> 2:10:37.640 Right till next time. This is Bob left six