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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey there, welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast

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Speaker 1: with me, Tom Verducci and of course Joe Madden. Joe,

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Speaker 1: I've got a question for you. What do these three

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Speaker 1: elements have in common? The PGA Tour, Major League Baseball,

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Speaker 1: and computer microchips.

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Speaker 2: They're all being utilized to further the game somehow. According

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Speaker 2: to whomever.

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Speaker 1: I like that it's a little vague, but a little

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Speaker 1: more specifically speed. It's all about speed, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: everybody of the tour is it's all about club speed.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's chasing speed, and it's happening on the mound. We

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Speaker 1: know that in the computer world. Well it's been true

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Speaker 1: for a long time, but it caught my attention, Joe,

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Speaker 1: as we got underway with spring training games. We're only

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Speaker 1: about four or five days into spring training games and

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Speaker 1: I am blown away, and so are the hitters, by

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Speaker 1: the way, by the amount of velocity we're seeing right

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Speaker 1: out of the gate. If you remember, Major League Baseball

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Speaker 1: released a study this winter. They did a deep dive

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Speaker 1: into the injury epidemic on the mound and one of

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Speaker 1: the driving forces they believe of injuries. After talking to

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Speaker 1: orthopedis and coaches, trainers, you name it was, that guy's

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Speaker 1: ramp up really hard in the offseason. Everybody's in their

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Speaker 1: pitching lab trying to add velocity and spin. It's amazing

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Speaker 1: how early they get on a mound, come to spring

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Speaker 1: training full bore, and that's what you're seeing right out

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Speaker 1: of the gate. Just to give you an idea, the

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Speaker 1: average Major league fastball two seamers and four steamers in

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Speaker 1: the first four days of spring training was ninety three

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Speaker 1: point seven miles per hour. That's what the regular season

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Speaker 1: average was just three years ago, and it's only a

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Speaker 1: tick or two above what it was in the regular season.

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Speaker 1: Last year. You had guy like the Dodgers, Yoshinobu Yashimoto

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Speaker 1: comes out, and remember this guy missed three months last

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Speaker 1: year with an injured shoulder. Five foot right hander threw

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Speaker 1: harder in his first start than he did his average

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Speaker 1: velocity in the twenty twenty four season. Jack Later hit

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Speaker 1: ninety nine point nine miles per hour. And Sandy al Contra,

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Speaker 1: who's a guy I want to get to very quickly

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Speaker 1: here coming back from Tommy john surgery. First time out,

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Speaker 1: he averaged ninety eight point eight miles an hour. That's

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Speaker 1: higher than what he threw before he blew out in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. So, Joe, this game talks a lot

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Speaker 1: about innings limits. They talk a lot about giving guys

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Speaker 1: extra rest, and of course this season, all that's being done.

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Speaker 1: But what I see spring training has changed. Where guys

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Speaker 1: come to spring training in mid season arm strength form.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's good. I'm not saying it's bad,

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Speaker 1: but things have definitely changed where guys are just hitting

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Speaker 1: the ground running seven weeks before opening day.

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Speaker 2: What do you see, Well, a couple things. I mean,

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Speaker 2: first of all, the genie's out of the bottle. That's

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Speaker 2: what everybody's looking for, his velocity, So you're not going

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Speaker 2: to put that back in. Where guys are going to

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden become more and tune to want

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Speaker 2: to become pitchers hitting spots. You know, they're all into

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Speaker 2: shaping or forming of the pitches. I get that, but

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Speaker 2: it's not about location as much as it is blowing

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Speaker 2: away and you don't want the ball in play. You

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Speaker 2: want it to be in the catcher's mid it's got

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Speaker 2: to be a strikeout. So all that stuff, that's what

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Speaker 2: they've been hearing for the last couple of years, and

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Speaker 2: these guys know. I think that the way to stay

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Speaker 2: into good graces with the organizations and continue to get

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Speaker 2: paid is to throw hard, to strike out people with

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Speaker 2: a lot of spin. I just think that's that's the

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Speaker 2: framework right now pitching the contact no longer exists. There's

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Speaker 2: other things. First of all, there's adrenaline right now, like

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Speaker 2: a guy guy's coming off injuries could be adrenaline, adrenaline

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Speaker 2: pumped up. Some guys may be attempting to make a team,

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Speaker 2: and that also speaks to guys coming in great shape

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Speaker 2: on the fans. They're trying to blow people away literally

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Speaker 2: both and the batter's boxing in front offices to give

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Speaker 2: the an opportunity to make the team. But overall, like

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Speaker 2: a contract, I mean, looking at him, was he doing

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Speaker 2: it easily? Was lighter doing it easily? Is it just

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Speaker 2: like a like a Zach Wheeler kind of emotion? Or

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Speaker 2: even to gram who has always baffled me, how this

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Speaker 2: guy gets hurt with the delivery that he has. Are

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Speaker 2: they doing it easily? Are they really grinding to get

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Speaker 2: that velocity? So there's that would my first take. I'd

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Speaker 2: have to look at that. I mean, like except first

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Speaker 2: of all. First of all, first of all is that

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Speaker 2: this is what everybody wants, so you're going to get it,

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Speaker 2: and then making a team. Are they doing it easily

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Speaker 2: or is it just an adrenaline rush that's going to

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Speaker 2: back off? So guys like this, I would keep a

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Speaker 2: close eye on throwing that hard that early. What's going

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Speaker 2: to happen over the course of the next couple of

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Speaker 2: times out. I mean, for me, I didn't want my

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Speaker 2: guy strowing that hard that early, different completely quickly. Back

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Speaker 2: in the day oriols with I guess George Bamberger was

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Speaker 2: the pitching coach for a year, is very good couple

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Speaker 2: first couple of times out. I was told in by

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Speaker 2: several people that they weren't permitted to throw anything but

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Speaker 2: a fastball, meaning that you know, they're eighty five mile

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Speaker 2: hour fastball ninety mine, our fastball ninety two whatever. Their

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Speaker 2: big thing with Baltimore was the VP fastball, which is

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Speaker 2: another way to talk about changeups and those those staffs

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Speaker 2: are pretty unsuccessful. I mean, stuff like that no longer exists,

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Speaker 2: but I really believe it's a great way to start

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Speaker 2: a camp. You don't care if your guy gets his

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Speaker 2: earspin back as long as he's working on something specifically.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, i'd like to think that's still true, but unfortunately

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Speaker 1: we're't an age now where all the numbers are available

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Speaker 1: every time these guys go out there. And if a

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Speaker 1: guy goes out there and his velocity is down two

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Speaker 1: three miles an hour, you know the questions after the game, Joe,

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Speaker 1: what's wrong? Right? So you know, and I'm sure you've

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Speaker 1: done this. You put guys in the back field to

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Speaker 1: take away that adrenaline element you talked about. That certainly

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Speaker 1: can be a part of it that Dodgers did that

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Speaker 1: with Roki Sasaki. Try to take some pressure off him.

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Speaker 1: Throw in a minor league game in a backfield without

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Speaker 1: that adrenaline and so much prying eyes where guys are

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Speaker 1: not pitching to the gun. You always have good questions, Joe,

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Speaker 1: and hopefully I've got a couple of answers for you.

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Speaker 1: Specifically with Lighter and al Contra. The Rangers actually told

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Speaker 1: Lighter listen, ramping up to spring training, don't start hitting

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Speaker 1: your peak velocity in early January the way you had before.

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Speaker 1: Work your way up through stages of velocity through January

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Speaker 1: and February. He did that, and he felt like when

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Speaker 1: he threw and listen, he threw the hardest pitch he's

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Speaker 1: thrown in a major league game. I know it's a

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Speaker 1: spring training game, but you know, thirty five plus innings

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Speaker 1: last year, he did not hit ninety nine point nine.

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Speaker 1: He said it felt free and easy, that there was

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Speaker 1: less effort in his delivery, and he liked the fact

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Speaker 1: that he ramped up with velocity through January and February

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Speaker 1: to get to that point. So that at least sounds

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Speaker 1: really encouraging if you're the Texas Rangers. And al Contre

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Speaker 1: had his surgery in October of twenty three, so he's

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Speaker 1: far enough for move where he should be at full

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Speaker 1: arm strength. There had to be adrenaline, and you get

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Speaker 1: back on the mountain for the first time, and you know,

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Speaker 1: a year and a half, I'm sure there was adrenaline.

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Speaker 1: He threw seventeen pitches, fifteen were fastballs, the slowest of

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Speaker 1: which was ninety seven point eight, and he hit ninety

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Speaker 1: nine point three.

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Speaker 2: Joe.

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Speaker 1: He pitched against the New York Mets, and to me,

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Speaker 1: I look at the New York Mets and the Baltimore

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Speaker 1: Orioles as two teams that need Sandy al Contra. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he's a difference maker. You can talk about Dylan Cees,

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Speaker 1: you can talk about Luis Castillo, if there's one name

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Speaker 1: that's out there. And I'm talking about making a difference

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Speaker 1: in the postseason because if you're Baltimore, you're the New

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Speaker 1: York Mets, you need swing and miss stuff to dominate

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Speaker 1: a postseason game against an elite team. Al Contre to

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Speaker 1: me is the number one guy to do that. And

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Speaker 1: if I'm the Mets and I saw him, and listen,

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Speaker 1: I know it's only one start. I'm not making a

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Speaker 1: final decision, but you had to be encouraged by the

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Speaker 1: way he threw the baseball. Do the Marlins trade him? Listen,

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Speaker 1: They're already under some pressure, Joe from the players Association

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Speaker 1: to spend more money. Right their payroll is only seventy

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Speaker 1: million dollars. Al Contra makes up twenty five percent of

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Speaker 1: their payroll. He's at seventeen and changed. They have nobody

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Speaker 1: else on that team who's making even five million dollars.

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Speaker 1: He's got another year left on this deal with a

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Speaker 1: contract option at twenty one million for twenty twenty seven,

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Speaker 1: so it's a long term buy Listen to me, it's

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Speaker 1: a race for Sandy Alcantra. I think I wouldn't wait

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Speaker 1: for July. If I were either one of those two teams.

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Speaker 2: Well, that would be for me. What is the motivation

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Speaker 2: of the Marlins? What are they trying to do here?

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Speaker 2: Are they trying to win the World Series? Or are

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Speaker 2: they trying to sell the club and reduce the price

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Speaker 2: in regards to what people have to pick up on

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Speaker 2: the other end regarding salaries. I mean, that's it. So

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Speaker 2: it goes back to the day when the commissioner was

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Speaker 2: able to act in regards to what's in the best

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Speaker 2: interests of baseball. How could you possibly argue that it's

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Speaker 2: in the best interest in baseball? And all these teams

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Speaker 2: attempt to do things like this on an annual basis.

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Speaker 2: I don't even imagine going to a spring training I think,

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Speaker 2: I guess maybe my first one as a manager with

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Speaker 2: the Rays, maybe, But you got to go there with

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Speaker 2: the intent I want to get to the playoffs and

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Speaker 2: then I want to win the World Series. And I

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Speaker 2: know sometimes when if you say that with a team

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Speaker 2: that has absolutely zero chance, it sounds crazy, But you

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Speaker 2: have to convince your players that we're going to camp

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Speaker 2: to win a World Series when your objectives on an

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Speaker 2: annual basis are far less than that. There, what are

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Speaker 2: we doing? I mean, this isn't just like a participation

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Speaker 2: trophy kind of a league. This is try to win

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Speaker 2: it all kind of a league. So that's what I'm

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Speaker 2: hearing right there. It's a dumb kind of a thing. Listen,

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Speaker 2: the guys outstanding. You're right about the teams that should

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Speaker 2: be and will be interested in them. But it just

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Speaker 2: screams to me, like, why why even be in the

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Speaker 2: business if you're in the business only to accumulate some

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Speaker 2: good players, sell them and constantly be in the state

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Speaker 2: of rebuild. If you look at the last several years,

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Speaker 2: the Marlins have got rid of some really good talent.

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Speaker 1: There.

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Speaker 2: They were dripping with with really good players for years,

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Speaker 2: and now they're just scattered throughout the league and they're

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Speaker 2: in the like the most the ultimate of rebuilds because

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Speaker 2: there's really no end in sight.

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Speaker 1: That's a great point. I'm with you on the Marlins.

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Speaker 1: I think you know, every team has to be trying, right,

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Speaker 1: and I understand the Players Association beef that you're getting

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Speaker 1: all this money from Central funds and where is it

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Speaker 1: showing up in payroll? And I get the fact that

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Speaker 1: are they ready to win the World Series? No, but

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Speaker 1: there does have to be a balance there of putting

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Speaker 1: the best team out there. On the other hand, listen,

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Speaker 1: if you get Sandy Alcantra and you can make a

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Speaker 1: big deal I'm talking about for major league players, you

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Speaker 1: got to think about it. I mean, in the world

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Speaker 1: we live in now, you know, I believe Joe the team,

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Speaker 1: like the Mets and the Orioles, really don't have that

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Speaker 1: dominant pitcher. I mean, if the Mets, listen, they've already

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Speaker 1: had a couple of injuries in spring training, right You've

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Speaker 1: had Frankie Montas and Sean and I go down with

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Speaker 1: light injuries, non throwing injuries, which is to me, not

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Speaker 1: that not that some I worry when guys hurt their arms.

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Speaker 1: These guys are going to be back, and nobody pitches

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Speaker 1: two hundred innings anymore. Anyway, the Mets do have some death.

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Speaker 1: You know, You've got your guy Griffin Canning there to

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Speaker 1: provide some death there. You've got Tyler McGill, You've got

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Speaker 1: Paul Blackburn. They're okay in the short term, but I

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Speaker 1: look forward to October, Joe, and if your teams like that,

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Speaker 1: you have to look at October. Are the Mets getting

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Speaker 1: through teams like the Dodgers and the Phillies and the

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Speaker 1: Braves with their rotations matching up? Are starters against your starters?

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Speaker 1: Are the Orioles getting through the Yankees and the Red

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Speaker 1: Sox with the rotations they have. I don't know, I

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Speaker 1: need some more swing and miss stuff, and I do

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Speaker 1: think there's a priority now. I know it's hard to

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Speaker 1: find those swing and miss guys starting pitchers, but as

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Speaker 1: Sandy al Kantra is out there, I got to trade

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Speaker 1: some of my best prospects to try to get him

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Speaker 1: because those teams are going for it, no question.

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Speaker 2: That's what is exactly what's going to happen, and whether

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Speaker 2: I like it or not, that's the way the world exists.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just as you're stock palling all that

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Speaker 2: stuff there, I'm just thinking about the race when I

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Speaker 2: was there in six two thousand and six, two at

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Speaker 2: fourteen and then the Cubs and the success that we

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Speaker 2: had in both places, and it was really I thought

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Speaker 2: centered around the starting rotations. I've always thought that starting

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Speaker 2: pitcher drives the engine. That's how I said describe it.

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Speaker 2: I always challenge the starting pitchers to accumulate a thousand

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Speaker 2: innings during the course of the season. I always felt

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Speaker 2: when you did that, it made for better bullpens, and

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Speaker 2: we had great bullpens in all those different places, where

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Speaker 2: then you get to use bullpens as you wanted to

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Speaker 2: as opposed to how you had to. And again it's

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Speaker 2: completely turned around. And again, listen, I always talked about

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Speaker 2: working the game backwards. I always wanted to work from

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Speaker 2: back to front two, meaning that I wanted to get

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Speaker 2: some better relief pictures in the game whenever we could,

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Speaker 2: and just try to eke out as many many innings

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Speaker 2: as you can out of this rotation. But then again,

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Speaker 2: when these guys are going six six plus innings, dang,

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Speaker 2: that makes it a lot easier to utilize your bullpen

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Speaker 2: as you want to and also give them adequate rest.

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Speaker 2: And part of that to not just dry hump guys

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Speaker 2: where you get guys up and have to sit them

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Speaker 2: down and I bring him in the game, which I

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Speaker 2: think has been eradicated a little bit by the three

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Speaker 2: batter minimum, where you know your pitcher's got to face

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Speaker 2: three hitters, so to get having to get guys up

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Speaker 2: constantly to match up from one out to another. Probably,

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Speaker 2: I don't know this for a fact, may have eliminated

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Speaker 2: some of the guys ups and downs where you utilize

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Speaker 2: them and have to just sit them down the rest

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Speaker 2: of the game and not even pitch them because you

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Speaker 2: warm them up so much. But listen, I understand what

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Speaker 2: you're saying to swing and misseduff. But if I had

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Speaker 2: an opportunity, I'd want to really teach my minor league

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Speaker 2: guys as you're trying to develop them, how to pitch

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Speaker 2: the third time through a batting order, how to get

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Speaker 2: guys out the third time through the batting order, and

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Speaker 2: utilize that kind of a thought process. It's got to

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Speaker 2: be developed. I mean, we just talk about it. It

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Speaker 2: can't be done anymore. But they'll tell that to shirz Er.

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Speaker 2: Don't tell that to Vera Lander. Don't tell that to

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Speaker 2: David Price, don't tell that to James Shields, Johnny Lester,

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Speaker 2: the guys that I've had. I mean, so I still

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Speaker 2: believe it's learnable. I still believe it physically and it's learnable.

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Speaker 2: And these are the kind of things I would want

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Speaker 2: to do. I want more innings out of my starters.

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Speaker 2: They're the group that needs to drive the engine that

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Speaker 2: gets us to the playoffs and the World Series. And

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Speaker 2: that's it. I mean, I just don't think that it's

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Speaker 2: emphasized enough, they're taught enough, or they're not concerned about

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Speaker 2: it enough, because this is what can make a difference

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Speaker 2: for a lot of teams.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you. Listen. We know starting pitchers they

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Speaker 1: throw far fewer innings than they used to. But I

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Speaker 1: still think this game, in terms of championship baseball, you

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Speaker 1: really do need starting pitching. I mean that has proven

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Speaker 1: time and time again in the postseason. Just to give

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Speaker 1: you some numbers here on Joe on velocity, because I again,

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Speaker 1: as you well put it, the genie ain't going back

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Speaker 1: in the bottle, right. The industry has learned really well

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Speaker 1: how to add velocity. Guys with really good arms become

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Speaker 1: great when it comes to velocity with the proper training.

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Speaker 1: So back in twenty twenty one, the average fastball was

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Speaker 1: ninety three point five. It's four seemers and two seemers.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, that was the last year Joe

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Speaker 1: that fastballs. We're a majority of pitches over fifty percent

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Speaker 1: since then, every year it's been under fifty percent. Tells

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Speaker 1: you how much spin is in the game. So it

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Speaker 1: went from ninety three to five to ninety three, seven

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Speaker 1: to ninety three to nine to ninety four last year.

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Speaker 1: You see a pattern here, right, it's not turning around.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we are bumping up against the limits of

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Speaker 1: really what the human body can actually do physically without

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Speaker 1: literally blowing muscles and tendons apart. But we have more

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Speaker 1: The universe of hard throwers is a lot higher now,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot more people there throwing upper nineties, so

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Speaker 1: that that I believe will continue to go up. I

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Speaker 1: don't see that trend falling where we're going to see

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Speaker 1: velocity go back down at all.

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Speaker 2: Well agreed, but you talked about the trend has been

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Speaker 2: to add velocity. Why can't the trend become then to

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Speaker 2: add innings again? And how did what is I mean

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Speaker 2: analytically speaking, I'm sure if they sat down and created

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Speaker 2: the formula to understand how to we increase the number

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Speaker 2: of innings pitch These starters pitched too. Why does it

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Speaker 2: just have to be about velocity? Why can't they be

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Speaker 2: run concurrently as opposed to like oppositionally so that would

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Speaker 2: be something to me that I I that would be

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Speaker 2: very curious. I'm telling you, man' given the opportunity, I

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Speaker 2: would really push the minor league side of things to

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Speaker 2: do that. I mean, after all, if you really want

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Speaker 2: to get affordable pitching, starting pitch and you got to

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Speaker 2: grow it yourself somehow, and that would be part of it.

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Speaker 2: The other part you talked about the increase of other pitches,

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Speaker 2: that's only because it's like you talked about swing and miss. Yeah,

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00:16:41,438 --> 00:16:45,478
Speaker 2: velocity plays big, but velocity plays even bigger by throwing

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Speaker 2: more off speed because then then the fastball even has

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00:16:48,558 --> 00:16:51,078
Speaker 2: a greater impact on the hitter. So I think the

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00:16:51,718 --> 00:16:54,638
Speaker 2: like the Red Sox, they're the proliferation there of the

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Speaker 2: breaking ball, and they just choose the one pitch that

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Speaker 2: you like best or in their mind's eye, works the

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Speaker 2: best for you off of the fastball, and that's the

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Speaker 2: pitch that talking last year about the breaking ball, the slider,

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00:17:06,118 --> 00:17:09,238
Speaker 2: that's what it's devolved into. I think. So they find

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00:17:09,278 --> 00:17:11,958
Speaker 2: what they perceive to be your Tom Berducci's best swing

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00:17:11,958 --> 00:17:13,878
Speaker 2: and mispitch, and they want you then to throw it

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Speaker 2: more than fifty percent of the time. And that's that's

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00:17:16,598 --> 00:17:19,358
Speaker 2: pretty basic, simple stuff. But over a period of time

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Speaker 2: that's not going to work. That just turns into a

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00:17:21,038 --> 00:17:24,438
Speaker 2: bad fastball. One hitters make an adjustment to that. So

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Speaker 2: I'd like to see more of ad as opposed to

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Speaker 2: add velocity. How do we add innings? And when it

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Speaker 2: comes down to the why the swing and miss is

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Speaker 2: increased in the sense of what they're looking for, that's

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Speaker 2: again the addition of the other pitch, whether it's a

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Speaker 2: change up. You hear about to change up, you hear

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Speaker 2: about sliders, breaking balls, all that kind of stuff. I

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00:17:44,358 --> 00:17:45,958
Speaker 2: get it. But at the end of the day, if

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Speaker 2: you will, I would want to believe if you want

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Speaker 2: to add innings, then you have to learn how to

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00:17:50,598 --> 00:17:52,758
Speaker 2: pitch your fastball better. And it might not just be

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Speaker 2: maxing out at your highest number. It might be more

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00:17:56,278 --> 00:18:00,438
Speaker 2: about locating the ball and weirdly pitching the contact in

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00:18:00,478 --> 00:18:02,798
Speaker 2: the sense to weak contact. And if you have a

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00:18:03,118 --> 00:18:07,198
Speaker 2: a real lively defense, a defense that could really cover

367
00:18:07,318 --> 00:18:10,478
Speaker 2: some ground and starts in the right position, that also

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00:18:10,558 --> 00:18:13,878
Speaker 2: plays well. So now you get starting pitchers making less

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Speaker 2: pitches earlier in the game, permitting them to throw more

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Speaker 2: pitches in a lighter part of the game effectively. It's

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Speaker 2: always been what I've looked for with my starting pitching.

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Speaker 1: Well, Joe, I mean, I listen. I'm old enough to

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Speaker 1: remember times when guys came to spring training to get

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Speaker 1: their arms in shape, right, sure, I remember, especially power

375
00:18:31,278 --> 00:18:34,318
Speaker 1: pitchers like Ron Guidry and Dave Rghetti, they were terrible

376
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Speaker 1: in spring training games because they use those six weeks

377
00:18:37,958 --> 00:18:41,158
Speaker 1: to build up their arm strength. Well, that doesn't happen anymore.

378
00:18:41,198 --> 00:18:43,718
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why there is this pitching epidemic,

379
00:18:43,758 --> 00:18:47,358
Speaker 1: according to the MLB research that was done, was guys

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Speaker 1: ramping up to peak velocity, whether at training centers or

381
00:18:50,918 --> 00:18:55,038
Speaker 1: on their own. Every bullpen session they throw, they're on track. Man,

382
00:18:55,078 --> 00:18:57,438
Speaker 1: they're trying to read the spin and they're maxing out.

383
00:18:57,558 --> 00:19:00,558
Speaker 1: There's no modulation of velocity. So that's what caught my

384
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Speaker 1: eye these first few days in spring training. Again, I'm

385
00:19:03,038 --> 00:19:06,678
Speaker 1: not saying it's it's bad, it's worse, but Major League

386
00:19:06,718 --> 00:19:10,158
Speaker 1: Baseball does see a connection between ramping up all the

387
00:19:10,238 --> 00:19:14,278
Speaker 1: time without modulating velocity. And let's face it, if you

388
00:19:14,278 --> 00:19:16,238
Speaker 1: look at the injury rates, the worst month of the

389
00:19:16,318 --> 00:19:20,358
Speaker 1: year for pitchers is March. It's spring training when the guys,

390
00:19:20,558 --> 00:19:22,718
Speaker 1: just get on the mound, get that adrenaline going after

391
00:19:22,758 --> 00:19:25,918
Speaker 1: working hard in the offseason. Injury rates actually have gone

392
00:19:25,958 --> 00:19:28,518
Speaker 1: down in the regular season, but spring training now is

393
00:19:28,558 --> 00:19:31,278
Speaker 1: the time to beware. Hey, we're going to take a

394
00:19:31,318 --> 00:19:33,158
Speaker 1: quick break here, Joe, we get back. I want to

395
00:19:33,198 --> 00:19:36,518
Speaker 1: ask you about how you handle playing time for your guys,

396
00:19:36,598 --> 00:19:40,518
Speaker 1: especially your regulars in spring training. We'll answer that question

397
00:19:40,638 --> 00:19:55,478
Speaker 1: right after this on the book of Joe. Hey, Joe,

398
00:19:55,518 --> 00:19:59,638
Speaker 1: this caught my eye. It's Julio Rodriguez of this Seattle Mariners.

399
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Speaker 1: He's one of these guys we say, he's always a

400
00:20:01,918 --> 00:20:04,558
Speaker 1: slow starter, right. I'm sure you had some of those guys.

401
00:20:04,638 --> 00:20:07,078
Speaker 1: I remember back in the day Bernie Williams the Yankees.

402
00:20:07,118 --> 00:20:08,918
Speaker 1: We try so many different things and come out of

403
00:20:08,918 --> 00:20:11,998
Speaker 1: the gates slow all the time. Julio as in April

404
00:20:11,998 --> 00:20:14,478
Speaker 1: in his career, and listen, it's a smaller sample size,

405
00:20:14,478 --> 00:20:16,478
Speaker 1: but there's enough to go by. At this point, he's

406
00:20:16,518 --> 00:20:19,398
Speaker 1: a two thirty eight hitter with a two ninety six

407
00:20:19,438 --> 00:20:22,758
Speaker 1: on base percentage three forty seven slug in April. That's

408
00:20:22,798 --> 00:20:25,518
Speaker 1: not good. The rest of the year he's two eighty

409
00:20:25,598 --> 00:20:28,238
Speaker 1: six with a three forty two on base and a

410
00:20:28,318 --> 00:20:31,518
Speaker 1: four to ninety three slug. So how can you get

411
00:20:31,518 --> 00:20:34,518
Speaker 1: this guy off to a better start so he doesn't

412
00:20:34,558 --> 00:20:37,238
Speaker 1: start from behind after a slow April. Well, his idea

413
00:20:37,318 --> 00:20:40,038
Speaker 1: for talking to Edgar Martinez was, you know, maybe I

414
00:20:40,078 --> 00:20:42,798
Speaker 1: need more playing time, Maybe I need to see more pitches,

415
00:20:42,798 --> 00:20:44,678
Speaker 1: Maybe you need to track more pitches. Maybe you need

416
00:20:44,718 --> 00:20:47,118
Speaker 1: to go on backfields and stand in the box and

417
00:20:47,198 --> 00:20:49,918
Speaker 1: just guys are throwing live VP, you know, be a

418
00:20:49,958 --> 00:20:52,078
Speaker 1: part of that. That's what he's doing. He's actually taking

419
00:20:52,078 --> 00:20:56,358
Speaker 1: as many game reps or simulated game reps as possible.

420
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Speaker 1: So I'm curious, Joe, and I'm sure you must have

421
00:20:58,878 --> 00:21:01,798
Speaker 1: guys who had slow starts, and you map out playing

422
00:21:01,838 --> 00:21:04,598
Speaker 1: time for your guys, especially your everyday guys in spring training,

423
00:21:04,878 --> 00:21:05,638
Speaker 1: how do you handle it?

424
00:21:05,918 --> 00:21:07,678
Speaker 2: Well, First of all, a guy like him coming from

425
00:21:07,718 --> 00:21:10,518
Speaker 2: a very warm climate, I just and where he plays,

426
00:21:10,518 --> 00:21:13,318
Speaker 2: I would just think sometimes just just the weather in

427
00:21:13,358 --> 00:21:16,798
Speaker 2: and of itself can be detrimental just being just quite frankly,

428
00:21:16,918 --> 00:21:18,718
Speaker 2: it happens. I mean in Chicago, it's hard to get

429
00:21:18,718 --> 00:21:19,918
Speaker 2: off to the good start if you play a lot

430
00:21:19,958 --> 00:21:22,638
Speaker 2: of home games at really, when the weather is that awful,

431
00:21:22,678 --> 00:21:25,118
Speaker 2: it's just tough on a hitter. But that being said,

432
00:21:25,758 --> 00:21:28,078
Speaker 2: I've already covered some of it. First of all, what

433
00:21:28,198 --> 00:21:31,598
Speaker 2: I do in spring trainings, I create a week's worth

434
00:21:31,678 --> 00:21:35,718
Speaker 2: of lineups in advance, always in conjunction with my bench coach,

435
00:21:35,718 --> 00:21:38,798
Speaker 2: whether it was David Martinez, Brandon Hyde, all the good

436
00:21:38,838 --> 00:21:41,438
Speaker 2: different guys I worked with, Mark Loretta, all these dudes.

437
00:21:41,918 --> 00:21:45,158
Speaker 2: I always have the week's worth of lineups and then

438
00:21:45,398 --> 00:21:48,238
Speaker 2: you plug in it, throw me every other day minimum.

439
00:21:48,318 --> 00:21:50,078
Speaker 2: And part of it is you try to take care

440
00:21:50,118 --> 00:21:52,318
Speaker 2: of your veteran guys by not putting them on the road,

441
00:21:52,718 --> 00:21:56,158
Speaker 2: so all this is factored in. I like to do

442
00:21:56,198 --> 00:21:57,838
Speaker 2: that so I can give guys the heads up in

443
00:21:57,918 --> 00:21:59,518
Speaker 2: advance when they're going to play, and then they could

444
00:21:59,518 --> 00:22:02,678
Speaker 2: adjust their workout schedules accordingly. So that's it. I mean,

445
00:22:02,718 --> 00:22:04,678
Speaker 2: I've done that since I didn't structional leagues in the

446
00:22:04,758 --> 00:22:08,878
Speaker 2: nineteen eighties. I always worked a week in advance with

447
00:22:08,958 --> 00:22:11,758
Speaker 2: my lineups for those reasons, and with that, you count

448
00:22:11,758 --> 00:22:14,238
Speaker 2: at bats. Now. Back in the day, when I was

449
00:22:14,278 --> 00:22:17,558
Speaker 2: with TC Terry Collins, we tried to get everybody minimum

450
00:22:17,638 --> 00:22:21,358
Speaker 2: sixty at bats played appearances during the course of spring training.

451
00:22:22,198 --> 00:22:24,318
Speaker 2: For the most part, that's not even true anymore. Guys

452
00:22:24,318 --> 00:22:27,958
Speaker 2: don't care about like legitimate at bats anymore. You've already

453
00:22:27,958 --> 00:22:30,518
Speaker 2: alluded to that we've sent guys down to get minor

454
00:22:30,598 --> 00:22:34,518
Speaker 2: league at bats, whether it's you bring your own pitchers

455
00:22:34,558 --> 00:22:37,198
Speaker 2: to pitch against them, or if there's a minor league

456
00:22:37,198 --> 00:22:38,958
Speaker 2: game going on on your lower field, you send the

457
00:22:38,998 --> 00:22:41,278
Speaker 2: guy down there and they'll lead off for maybe six

458
00:22:41,398 --> 00:22:43,438
Speaker 2: seven innings and get six to seven at bats. That

459
00:22:43,558 --> 00:22:46,238
Speaker 2: kind of a thing to catch up. So there's different

460
00:22:46,318 --> 00:22:49,318
Speaker 2: ways to do that, but I always worked in advance

461
00:22:49,558 --> 00:22:52,998
Speaker 2: so that everybody would knew exactly what was going on.

462
00:22:53,118 --> 00:22:55,998
Speaker 2: Now I touched on it the on the road thing

463
00:22:56,438 --> 00:22:58,598
Speaker 2: for guys to really accumulate that bats. You've got to

464
00:22:58,598 --> 00:23:00,358
Speaker 2: get them to buy into going on the road. I mean,

465
00:23:00,358 --> 00:23:03,198
Speaker 2: we've taken care of these guys, and I've done it.

466
00:23:03,318 --> 00:23:05,398
Speaker 2: I've done it as a manager, take care of the varsity.

467
00:23:05,478 --> 00:23:07,998
Speaker 2: Always have taken care of the varsity. So you have

468
00:23:08,078 --> 00:23:10,158
Speaker 2: to really figure that out, and you have to convince

469
00:23:10,198 --> 00:23:13,638
Speaker 2: guys that it's important that they get more at bats.

470
00:23:13,678 --> 00:23:15,558
Speaker 2: But if you talk to them, they'll always tell you

471
00:23:15,598 --> 00:23:18,758
Speaker 2: that they do not need those more at bats. And

472
00:23:18,798 --> 00:23:20,758
Speaker 2: this is part of the rub these days. Before it

473
00:23:20,838 --> 00:23:23,918
Speaker 2: used to be kind of dictated in a sense. Now

474
00:23:23,958 --> 00:23:25,838
Speaker 2: it's more of a you know, you get together with

475
00:23:25,838 --> 00:23:27,638
Speaker 2: the player himself and you come to a conclusion what

476
00:23:27,758 --> 00:23:31,558
Speaker 2: you think according to them. Also how many they do need.

477
00:23:32,478 --> 00:23:34,478
Speaker 2: I still of the ILK that I would say at

478
00:23:34,598 --> 00:23:37,078
Speaker 2: least fifty at bats sixty is a really good number

479
00:23:37,758 --> 00:23:40,438
Speaker 2: in the course of spring training. And to do that,

480
00:23:40,518 --> 00:23:42,198
Speaker 2: like I said, sometimes you might have to play on

481
00:23:42,198 --> 00:23:46,558
Speaker 2: the road. And yeah, like say, for instance, somebody struggling,

482
00:23:46,598 --> 00:23:48,518
Speaker 2: like you know, Sam and Timmy used to love to

483
00:23:48,558 --> 00:23:51,438
Speaker 2: go down to the lower fields and get ten at

484
00:23:51,478 --> 00:23:54,718
Speaker 2: bats in a minor league spring training game in order

485
00:23:54,758 --> 00:23:56,958
Speaker 2: to play catch up and get more at bats going

486
00:23:56,998 --> 00:23:59,518
Speaker 2: into a season. So all these things are available to them.

487
00:23:59,718 --> 00:24:03,558
Speaker 2: So again it's kind of an individual thing. You pay

488
00:24:03,678 --> 00:24:06,438
Speaker 2: ten the guy, But I like minimums place and I

489
00:24:06,518 --> 00:24:09,998
Speaker 2: think a really good strong hitting instructor is really important

490
00:24:09,998 --> 00:24:14,158
Speaker 2: here in regards to having that conversation convincing somebody that

491
00:24:14,558 --> 00:24:16,358
Speaker 2: feels like they don't have to do it, because the

492
00:24:16,398 --> 00:24:18,958
Speaker 2: conversation in the clubhouse is we don't have to do this,

493
00:24:19,078 --> 00:24:20,678
Speaker 2: and flip it to the point, yeah, we do have

494
00:24:20,758 --> 00:24:23,398
Speaker 2: to do this because we want off to get we

495
00:24:23,438 --> 00:24:25,718
Speaker 2: want to get off to a good start. These first

496
00:24:25,718 --> 00:24:28,238
Speaker 2: week of games, ten days of games, two weeks of

497
00:24:28,238 --> 00:24:29,998
Speaker 2: games can make all the difference by the end of

498
00:24:29,998 --> 00:24:30,398
Speaker 2: the season.

499
00:24:30,598 --> 00:24:33,318
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it just strikes me anecdotally, Joe that guys,

500
00:24:33,358 --> 00:24:36,598
Speaker 1: the everyday players, they get fewer at bats in the

501
00:24:36,678 --> 00:24:39,398
Speaker 1: quote unquote mainspring training games than they did even ten

502
00:24:39,478 --> 00:24:41,958
Speaker 1: fifteen years ago. I'm not sure why that is. I

503
00:24:42,038 --> 00:24:45,078
Speaker 1: know that you know the new pitching machines they have now,

504
00:24:45,158 --> 00:24:49,238
Speaker 1: which really do simulate live pitching, so well, you get

505
00:24:49,238 --> 00:24:53,438
Speaker 1: the equivalent. It's an approximation, but a pretty dark close one,

506
00:24:53,478 --> 00:24:56,438
Speaker 1: the equivalent of a game at bat. I guess it's

507
00:24:56,478 --> 00:24:58,598
Speaker 1: wear and tear as well. I mean, Joona, did you

508
00:24:58,598 --> 00:25:03,718
Speaker 1: ever have pressure, either direct or indirect, that get your

509
00:25:03,718 --> 00:25:06,078
Speaker 1: MAI guys on that field, especially for a home game

510
00:25:06,078 --> 00:25:08,478
Speaker 1: that might be televised back in the home market, and

511
00:25:08,518 --> 00:25:11,078
Speaker 1: any you know, influence from the front office or players

512
00:25:11,318 --> 00:25:14,198
Speaker 1: regarding you know, how much guys should play in those games.

513
00:25:14,758 --> 00:25:17,878
Speaker 2: Not really, It's just something you did anyway, because like

514
00:25:17,878 --> 00:25:19,798
Speaker 2: I said, you would take care of the varsity at

515
00:25:19,838 --> 00:25:23,118
Speaker 2: home normally the televised games. I never I never paid

516
00:25:23,158 --> 00:25:25,638
Speaker 2: attention to that quite frankly, and I never felt that

517
00:25:26,278 --> 00:25:29,758
Speaker 2: pressure from anybody. The front office guys from when I

518
00:25:29,798 --> 00:25:33,678
Speaker 2: can remember, really never were concerned about that at all.

519
00:25:33,798 --> 00:25:36,558
Speaker 1: Well, the league used to crack down when teams didn't

520
00:25:36,598 --> 00:25:40,078
Speaker 1: bring starting players on the road. That was the rule,

521
00:25:40,158 --> 00:25:44,478
Speaker 1: but I'm sure that was really enforced, that tight line, right.

522
00:25:44,398 --> 00:25:48,718
Speaker 2: Very tightly, right facetiously, the four guys on the road trip,

523
00:25:48,718 --> 00:25:51,358
Speaker 2: it's just guys that have played in the big leagues

524
00:25:51,358 --> 00:25:54,198
Speaker 2: of the year before. You never, yes, you try to

525
00:25:54,278 --> 00:25:57,078
Speaker 2: accommodate your home fan base more than you're going to

526
00:25:57,158 --> 00:26:00,118
Speaker 2: want to accommodate the road fan base. Like I said,

527
00:26:00,158 --> 00:26:01,718
Speaker 2: I mean a lot of times a year you took

528
00:26:01,758 --> 00:26:03,398
Speaker 2: care of the varsity, had them play at home. So

529
00:26:03,438 --> 00:26:06,398
Speaker 2: you look at this schedule right from get go, and

530
00:26:06,438 --> 00:26:08,358
Speaker 2: you try to match it up that way, and you're right.

531
00:26:08,878 --> 00:26:11,158
Speaker 2: You see some of these road games. I was looking

532
00:26:11,158 --> 00:26:13,318
Speaker 2: at the box scores today a couple of different teams,

533
00:26:13,358 --> 00:26:15,238
Speaker 2: and my god, I haven't been there in a couple

534
00:26:15,238 --> 00:26:17,158
Speaker 2: of years, but I didn't recognize hardly any names. It

535
00:26:17,198 --> 00:26:20,038
Speaker 2: was like a triple A game. But the last point

536
00:26:20,078 --> 00:26:23,518
Speaker 2: about the you're talking about the at bats and the

537
00:26:23,558 --> 00:26:26,638
Speaker 2: ability to simulate off the field The one thing you

538
00:26:26,678 --> 00:26:30,198
Speaker 2: can't simulate simulate off the field is the field where

539
00:26:30,238 --> 00:26:33,118
Speaker 2: there's no batting tunnel cage. There's not an enclosure behind

540
00:26:33,158 --> 00:26:36,358
Speaker 2: you for any of those golfers out there. Just like

541
00:26:36,398 --> 00:26:39,278
Speaker 2: when you hit inside compared to outside or in a

542
00:26:39,278 --> 00:26:42,798
Speaker 2: tunnel inside versus on the field, there's a different attitude

543
00:26:42,838 --> 00:26:44,598
Speaker 2: about it. When you're inside, you're going to work on

544
00:26:44,638 --> 00:26:47,918
Speaker 2: something specifically. I think, as an example, driving the ball

545
00:26:47,958 --> 00:26:49,838
Speaker 2: back to the middle, which is a good thing. But

546
00:26:49,878 --> 00:26:52,318
Speaker 2: when you get on the field, when everything's wide open,

547
00:26:52,358 --> 00:26:55,838
Speaker 2: it feels completely different. So to balance that I think

548
00:26:55,958 --> 00:26:59,038
Speaker 2: is really wise or smart, and I think that's the

549
00:26:59,038 --> 00:27:01,078
Speaker 2: one thing that this stuff cannot create. I've listened. I've

550
00:27:01,078 --> 00:27:04,758
Speaker 2: been into high velocity for years. Started with the Ponza

551
00:27:04,758 --> 00:27:08,558
Speaker 2: machine at thirty three feet thirty six inches high back

552
00:27:08,598 --> 00:27:12,078
Speaker 2: in the mid nineteen eighties an instructional league in Arizona.

553
00:27:12,118 --> 00:27:14,638
Speaker 2: That's when I first started doing it. Figured out the

554
00:27:14,718 --> 00:27:16,598
Speaker 2: velocity we were thrown out. It would put a speed

555
00:27:16,638 --> 00:27:18,598
Speaker 2: gun back there and it was the equivalent of like

556
00:27:19,638 --> 00:27:21,638
Speaker 2: ninety three to ninety four to ninety five miles an hour,

557
00:27:21,678 --> 00:27:23,838
Speaker 2: and I wanted it at thirty six inches high off

558
00:27:23,838 --> 00:27:25,678
Speaker 2: the ground. Because I wanted the ball to ride a

559
00:27:25,678 --> 00:27:28,998
Speaker 2: little bit, and I wanted to force the shortness of

560
00:27:29,038 --> 00:27:31,718
Speaker 2: the swinging by keeping the barrel above the hands and

561
00:27:31,758 --> 00:27:34,318
Speaker 2: creating more of a maximum shortness as the way I

562
00:27:34,438 --> 00:27:37,318
Speaker 2: described it, to the ball kind of antithetical to what's

563
00:27:37,358 --> 00:27:39,478
Speaker 2: going on now everybody wants to lift the ball back.

564
00:27:39,478 --> 00:27:41,638
Speaker 2: Then I wanted line drives to the OPO gap as

565
00:27:41,718 --> 00:27:44,038
Speaker 2: much as we could in order to really create the

566
00:27:44,118 --> 00:27:47,118
Speaker 2: right path to the ball and creating backspin. So that

567
00:27:47,238 --> 00:27:48,798
Speaker 2: was something the Angels have been doing for your So

568
00:27:48,878 --> 00:27:51,558
Speaker 2: the point, I even had a smaller ball developed by

569
00:27:51,918 --> 00:27:54,638
Speaker 2: a tech, a smaller baseball like I don't even know

570
00:27:54,678 --> 00:27:56,918
Speaker 2: if like maybe half the size, but with the same weight,

571
00:27:57,438 --> 00:27:59,518
Speaker 2: and it almost when you hit it, man, it reacts

572
00:27:59,518 --> 00:28:02,598
Speaker 2: like a dang golf ball. But again, the point was

573
00:28:02,638 --> 00:28:06,398
Speaker 2: to square up a smaller target at high velocity speed,

574
00:28:06,758 --> 00:28:08,238
Speaker 2: and we are able to do that on the field.

575
00:28:08,238 --> 00:28:11,878
Speaker 2: It puts with tighter nets on the batting tunnel, the

576
00:28:11,918 --> 00:28:15,278
Speaker 2: turtle on the field, as well as the screen protecting

577
00:28:15,318 --> 00:28:18,118
Speaker 2: the guy feeding the machine. All this stuff we've been

578
00:28:18,118 --> 00:28:19,838
Speaker 2: in play for years and I had a hard time

579
00:28:19,878 --> 00:28:22,438
Speaker 2: selling that back in the day, trust me. But eventually

580
00:28:22,438 --> 00:28:24,038
Speaker 2: a lot of guys got into it, and I made

581
00:28:24,078 --> 00:28:27,118
Speaker 2: it even more difficult by not only by making the

582
00:28:27,158 --> 00:28:29,798
Speaker 2: guys use a heavier bat and they could not choke

583
00:28:29,958 --> 00:28:33,078
Speaker 2: up to really emphasize hand action, et cetera. So this

584
00:28:33,158 --> 00:28:36,118
Speaker 2: is nothing new. Everybody acts as though it is, and

585
00:28:36,478 --> 00:28:38,478
Speaker 2: I got part of the idea came from Bob Clear

586
00:28:38,478 --> 00:28:41,558
Speaker 2: because apparently Alex Johnson used to do that. He went

587
00:28:41,598 --> 00:28:43,718
Speaker 2: to I think the batting title for the Angels one

588
00:28:43,758 --> 00:28:44,998
Speaker 2: year on the last at bat of the year, on

589
00:28:45,038 --> 00:28:46,678
Speaker 2: the ground ball the third base because he could run

590
00:28:46,758 --> 00:28:49,398
Speaker 2: so much. But this stuff's been in play. Everybody acts

591
00:28:49,518 --> 00:28:51,118
Speaker 2: though it's new, but it's been in play for a bit.

592
00:28:51,478 --> 00:28:53,278
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess the equivalent now is a lot of

593
00:28:53,278 --> 00:28:56,238
Speaker 1: guys will get in the cage and it will spit

594
00:28:56,318 --> 00:29:00,278
Speaker 1: out foam baseballs. Say you're facing a picture like Christian

595
00:29:00,318 --> 00:29:03,078
Speaker 1: Hobvier who's got that high riding, you know, high vert

596
00:29:03,198 --> 00:29:05,958
Speaker 1: fastball top of the zone. The phone balls won't sink

597
00:29:05,998 --> 00:29:10,278
Speaker 1: as much and they'll try to assimilate that ride on

598
00:29:10,318 --> 00:29:12,838
Speaker 1: a forcing fastball top of the zone. And the benefit

599
00:29:12,918 --> 00:29:15,398
Speaker 1: is it doesn't blow up your hands if you catch

600
00:29:15,438 --> 00:29:19,998
Speaker 1: it off the handle. So yeah, definitely velocity is driving

601
00:29:20,038 --> 00:29:23,238
Speaker 1: this game. Hey, Joe, I have to ask you about

602
00:29:23,278 --> 00:29:28,158
Speaker 1: a topic that everybody is talking about, including my mon

603
00:29:28,318 --> 00:29:30,478
Speaker 1: senior at my local parish came up to me after

604
00:29:30,558 --> 00:29:32,198
Speaker 1: mass and had to ask me about it. So then

605
00:29:32,238 --> 00:29:34,398
Speaker 1: I figured I got to bring this up on the podcast.

606
00:29:35,118 --> 00:29:39,238
Speaker 1: The Yankees are allowing beards. You know, since George steinberand

607
00:29:39,238 --> 00:29:41,558
Speaker 1: brought the team in nineteen seventy three, it's been team policy,

608
00:29:41,678 --> 00:29:45,838
Speaker 1: no beards, right close cropped hair, well grew mustaches. Well, now,

609
00:29:45,878 --> 00:29:49,278
Speaker 1: since Devin Williams was traded from Milwaukee to the Yankees

610
00:29:49,318 --> 00:29:50,998
Speaker 1: and went to hell Steinbrand and said, what's up with

611
00:29:51,038 --> 00:29:53,878
Speaker 1: this beard thing? He asked the simple question like why,

612
00:29:54,438 --> 00:29:56,958
Speaker 1: And it's hard to defend. It's really impossible to defend

613
00:29:57,078 --> 00:30:00,958
Speaker 1: in today's world. So there's no more man of beards

614
00:30:00,998 --> 00:30:03,238
Speaker 1: by the New York Yankees. Now, you can't go all

615
00:30:03,278 --> 00:30:05,478
Speaker 1: Brandon marsh sever you're a Yankee. You just can't let

616
00:30:05,518 --> 00:30:08,158
Speaker 1: the thing grow and be unkempt. It has to be

617
00:30:08,198 --> 00:30:10,198
Speaker 1: well groomed. But give you your take. When you heard

618
00:30:10,238 --> 00:30:13,838
Speaker 1: the Yankees, the New York Yankees are allowing their players

619
00:30:13,878 --> 00:30:15,518
Speaker 1: to wear beards.

620
00:30:15,438 --> 00:30:17,118
Speaker 2: You know, it's kind of like it's about time. Kind

621
00:30:17,118 --> 00:30:19,758
Speaker 2: of a thing. Listen, back in the day, there's different

622
00:30:19,838 --> 00:30:22,958
Speaker 2: ways to elicit discipline, and that to me, was all

623
00:30:22,958 --> 00:30:26,598
Speaker 2: about creating discipline within the group. And then somebody's perception

624
00:30:26,718 --> 00:30:28,838
Speaker 2: and he's the owner, I mean, whoever the owner is,

625
00:30:28,838 --> 00:30:30,958
Speaker 2: if he wants that, then he should get that. I

626
00:30:30,998 --> 00:30:35,118
Speaker 2: mean that was his way of creating a philosophy within

627
00:30:35,118 --> 00:30:38,918
Speaker 2: the group, kind of a businessman's mentality and a discipline,

628
00:30:38,958 --> 00:30:41,958
Speaker 2: and that was the way they elicited discipline for years.

629
00:30:41,998 --> 00:30:45,398
Speaker 2: I don't think it mattered as much other than you're

630
00:30:45,478 --> 00:30:49,678
Speaker 2: part of a fraternity by having to, you know, wear,

631
00:30:49,678 --> 00:30:51,558
Speaker 2: You're hearing a certain way of lack of facial hair

632
00:30:51,598 --> 00:30:54,438
Speaker 2: with the Yankees, so you know, from what I understand,

633
00:30:54,518 --> 00:30:56,078
Speaker 2: some of the guys in the past are kind of

634
00:30:56,118 --> 00:30:58,718
Speaker 2: upset by this because they had to live by it,

635
00:30:58,758 --> 00:31:02,798
Speaker 2: but these guys do not. I'm about creating discipline in

636
00:31:02,838 --> 00:31:04,798
Speaker 2: different ways. I think I think we should spend more

637
00:31:04,838 --> 00:31:07,958
Speaker 2: time creating discipline on the field as opposed to worrying

638
00:31:07,958 --> 00:31:10,918
Speaker 2: so much about that. I love individuality. I love the

639
00:31:10,958 --> 00:31:13,958
Speaker 2: fact that guys do look differently. I like that, you know,

640
00:31:14,038 --> 00:31:17,758
Speaker 2: some crazy hairdos. I'm okay with beards, mustaches, whatever. As

641
00:31:17,758 --> 00:31:20,038
Speaker 2: long as you play hard on the field. In regards

642
00:31:20,038 --> 00:31:23,238
Speaker 2: to dress. Dress codes was another way of eliciting discipline,

643
00:31:23,638 --> 00:31:26,518
Speaker 2: and for me, that's that was by the board also

644
00:31:27,118 --> 00:31:30,678
Speaker 2: because sometimes or maybe all the time, I think, if

645
00:31:30,678 --> 00:31:32,838
Speaker 2: somebody is able to dress in a manner which is

646
00:31:32,878 --> 00:31:35,838
Speaker 2: comfortable to them, we're going to get that person in

647
00:31:35,878 --> 00:31:39,518
Speaker 2: its entirety wherever he shows up, whether it's on a

648
00:31:39,518 --> 00:31:41,478
Speaker 2: team planer or on the baseball field, because he's not

649
00:31:42,038 --> 00:31:45,518
Speaker 2: concerned about more superficial items. I want my discipline on

650
00:31:45,558 --> 00:31:47,358
Speaker 2: the field. I want guys to respect ninety I want

651
00:31:47,398 --> 00:31:50,318
Speaker 2: them to run hard from home plate to first base.

652
00:31:50,518 --> 00:31:52,798
Speaker 2: I want them to go hard from first to third.

653
00:31:52,958 --> 00:31:56,158
Speaker 2: I want pitchers to work on their defense. I want

654
00:31:56,198 --> 00:31:58,678
Speaker 2: all the little the cutoff and relays. I want people

655
00:31:58,718 --> 00:32:02,038
Speaker 2: to be in position. That's where I want my discipline.

656
00:32:02,238 --> 00:32:04,918
Speaker 2: So I think you should spend and again I think,

657
00:32:05,278 --> 00:32:07,878
Speaker 2: you know, maybe you're spending more time on this stuff

658
00:32:07,878 --> 00:32:10,758
Speaker 2: that really is ancillary and not that important to winning,

659
00:32:10,998 --> 00:32:14,918
Speaker 2: whereas opposed to stuff that is we overlook because sometimes

660
00:32:15,118 --> 00:32:18,598
Speaker 2: a young coach or a manager even sometimes fails to

661
00:32:18,798 --> 00:32:22,078
Speaker 2: correct or point out mistakes on the field because they

662
00:32:22,118 --> 00:32:24,558
Speaker 2: don't want to upset the player, but they're willing to

663
00:32:24,638 --> 00:32:27,878
Speaker 2: upset them by saying you can't wear a beard, or

664
00:32:27,878 --> 00:32:29,198
Speaker 2: you have to have your hair in a certain way,

665
00:32:29,238 --> 00:32:31,078
Speaker 2: you have to dress a certain way. That's where the

666
00:32:31,078 --> 00:32:33,838
Speaker 2: incongruity is. To me. If you want to create discipline,

667
00:32:33,878 --> 00:32:35,958
Speaker 2: do it on the field, make corrections when you see

668
00:32:35,998 --> 00:32:40,118
Speaker 2: it necessary, demand a certain method of play from your guys.

669
00:32:40,718 --> 00:32:43,758
Speaker 2: And with that the exchange is, go ahead, dress however

670
00:32:43,878 --> 00:32:45,438
Speaker 2: you want. I don't care if you have a beard,

671
00:32:45,558 --> 00:32:48,318
Speaker 2: but I need this on the field when game time starts.

672
00:32:48,918 --> 00:32:50,998
Speaker 1: Yeah, And of course the irony is the twenty twenty

673
00:32:50,998 --> 00:32:54,918
Speaker 1: four Yankees. We're known for playing, you know, an undisciplined

674
00:32:55,198 --> 00:32:57,878
Speaker 1: brand of baseball right when it came to the fundamentals.

675
00:32:58,478 --> 00:33:01,838
Speaker 1: But they were well groomed. I feel for how steinbredder

676
00:33:01,878 --> 00:33:04,758
Speaker 1: in a way, Joe, because this obviously he was put

677
00:33:04,798 --> 00:33:07,118
Speaker 1: in place by his father, George Steinbrenner. Buy is the team.

678
00:33:07,118 --> 00:33:10,638
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy three, George Steinbrenner went to Culver Military Academy.

679
00:33:11,038 --> 00:33:14,718
Speaker 1: He was a football coach at Northwestern. His background really

680
00:33:14,918 --> 00:33:18,358
Speaker 1: was in football and track, but mostly football coaching. And

681
00:33:18,438 --> 00:33:20,198
Speaker 1: it was that time, as you know this in the

682
00:33:20,238 --> 00:33:22,918
Speaker 1: seventies when you know, hair got longer, he had the

683
00:33:22,958 --> 00:33:26,598
Speaker 1: mutton chops, the long mustaches, the swing and as all

684
00:33:26,638 --> 00:33:30,758
Speaker 1: that thing. And he was trying to instill a new discipline,

685
00:33:31,158 --> 00:33:34,278
Speaker 1: if that's the right word, a new culture among the

686
00:33:34,278 --> 00:33:36,758
Speaker 1: New York Yankees. Let's face it, they weren't wearing anything

687
00:33:36,838 --> 00:33:39,318
Speaker 1: back in the late sixties and the early seventies, right,

688
00:33:39,718 --> 00:33:42,358
Speaker 1: So this goes back to something that Hou's father put

689
00:33:42,398 --> 00:33:45,678
Speaker 1: in for very good reasons. You know, you can disagree

690
00:33:45,718 --> 00:33:47,518
Speaker 1: with them, but he had his reasons for doing it. It

691
00:33:47,558 --> 00:33:50,438
Speaker 1: wasn't done willy nilly. He was proud of the fact

692
00:33:50,438 --> 00:33:52,758
Speaker 1: that the way the Yankees traveled and looked was different

693
00:33:52,758 --> 00:33:56,118
Speaker 1: than other teams. So I really, in some ways I

694
00:33:56,118 --> 00:33:58,798
Speaker 1: sympathized with hal Steinbrenner making a decision that's right for

695
00:33:58,878 --> 00:34:02,518
Speaker 1: these times. But in doing so, he really had to

696
00:34:02,598 --> 00:34:06,318
Speaker 1: say that what is fin did no longer applies in

697
00:34:06,358 --> 00:34:08,278
Speaker 1: today's world. That's not an easy place to be.

698
00:34:08,878 --> 00:34:11,238
Speaker 2: No, that's what he knew at that time. So just

699
00:34:11,278 --> 00:34:13,638
Speaker 2: talk about the game itself. What's applied in the game

700
00:34:13,678 --> 00:34:15,678
Speaker 2: today is compared to what was applied back then. You

701
00:34:15,678 --> 00:34:20,478
Speaker 2: could talk about the revolutionary components of analytics versus old

702
00:34:20,478 --> 00:34:23,838
Speaker 2: school methods of baseball and how that's changed everything based

703
00:34:23,878 --> 00:34:28,198
Speaker 2: on who's in charge. The spoils go to the victors.

704
00:34:28,198 --> 00:34:31,318
Speaker 2: Who's in charge right now and who's sending all the

705
00:34:31,398 --> 00:34:34,118
Speaker 2: rules whatever, And that's what's happening regarding the way the

706
00:34:34,158 --> 00:34:37,838
Speaker 2: game is played, chasing a velocity, the three true outcomes.

707
00:34:37,878 --> 00:34:40,878
Speaker 2: All this stuff has changed over time based on that.

708
00:34:41,078 --> 00:34:44,318
Speaker 2: George Steinbrenner was in charge. That was his baby. He

709
00:34:44,358 --> 00:34:46,838
Speaker 2: gets to make the rules. That's what he saw his

710
00:34:46,878 --> 00:34:50,398
Speaker 2: way of eliciting discipline. Like you're talking about changing culture

711
00:34:50,398 --> 00:34:54,038
Speaker 2: and philosophy. So I agree with you. He's the owner,

712
00:34:54,078 --> 00:34:56,758
Speaker 2: he's the boss, he's the man. Yes, if I'm a

713
00:34:56,798 --> 00:34:58,878
Speaker 2: part of that team, I probably don't like it, but

714
00:34:58,918 --> 00:35:02,278
Speaker 2: I do it because this is what the person in

715
00:35:02,358 --> 00:35:05,318
Speaker 2: charge wants and I'm here to I'm an employee, so

716
00:35:05,358 --> 00:35:06,678
Speaker 2: I'm going to do what I need to do to

717
00:35:06,678 --> 00:35:09,358
Speaker 2: make this thing work and be right. So all this

718
00:35:09,478 --> 00:35:11,958
Speaker 2: there's always change. There's always change. But at the end

719
00:35:11,958 --> 00:35:15,278
Speaker 2: of the day, who's ever in charge gets to set,

720
00:35:15,638 --> 00:35:18,798
Speaker 2: gets to set and make the rules. I've always been

721
00:35:18,878 --> 00:35:20,918
Speaker 2: raised that way. Whether like I said, there's times they

722
00:35:20,998 --> 00:35:23,438
Speaker 2: haven't liked it. My pop never liked my long hair

723
00:35:23,518 --> 00:35:26,038
Speaker 2: growing up, right, You'd always give me a hard time

724
00:35:26,078 --> 00:35:27,598
Speaker 2: about it, but I wear my long hair anyway. But

725
00:35:27,598 --> 00:35:30,398
Speaker 2: I always respected my dad. You know, there's this different

726
00:35:30,518 --> 00:35:33,278
Speaker 2: We're all different, man. We all have different methods in

727
00:35:33,318 --> 00:35:36,158
Speaker 2: regards to what we think is the best way to

728
00:35:36,198 --> 00:35:40,078
Speaker 2: incorporate change and what the change may be and how

729
00:35:40,118 --> 00:35:43,718
Speaker 2: this is going to impact our future. That was mister Steinbrenner's.

730
00:35:44,478 --> 00:35:46,838
Speaker 2: He had his reasons, Like you said, I don't agree

731
00:35:46,838 --> 00:35:49,238
Speaker 2: with him, but had I been part of that group,

732
00:35:49,238 --> 00:35:49,958
Speaker 2: I would have done them.

733
00:35:49,998 --> 00:35:52,158
Speaker 1: Boy, Joe, you just brought me back to something. I

734
00:35:52,198 --> 00:35:56,638
Speaker 1: was going to start high school right, and my dad

735
00:35:56,678 --> 00:35:59,918
Speaker 1: brought me to a barbarous, old Italian barber down in Newark,

736
00:36:00,158 --> 00:36:01,638
Speaker 1: and I swore I didn't even know if they had

737
00:36:01,638 --> 00:36:04,918
Speaker 1: electricity there. It was old school is just you know,

738
00:36:05,558 --> 00:36:08,558
Speaker 1: the razor and the scissor and the comb. This again,

739
00:36:08,638 --> 00:36:12,318
Speaker 1: this is early seventies, and you know, people were wearing

740
00:36:12,318 --> 00:36:14,798
Speaker 1: their hair along and he brought me in there, and

741
00:36:14,838 --> 00:36:17,238
Speaker 1: to start out high school, he got me the shortest

742
00:36:17,238 --> 00:36:20,758
Speaker 1: and basically a crew cut. I was mortified going to

743
00:36:20,838 --> 00:36:23,438
Speaker 1: high school looking like that in the mid seventies. My

744
00:36:23,478 --> 00:36:26,118
Speaker 1: mother couldn't believe it. Either. But man, you just brought back.

745
00:36:26,518 --> 00:36:29,158
Speaker 1: It's not painful because I can look back and laugh

746
00:36:29,198 --> 00:36:32,918
Speaker 1: about it. But those things, man, they mattered so much

747
00:36:32,998 --> 00:36:34,038
Speaker 1: back then, didn't they?

748
00:36:34,398 --> 00:36:36,198
Speaker 2: Well they did. I mean I went to my barber,

749
00:36:36,238 --> 00:36:39,118
Speaker 2: Nicki Leger, and Nikki was known to have a bottle

750
00:36:39,158 --> 00:36:41,678
Speaker 2: on the other table there. It was like this brown

751
00:36:41,758 --> 00:36:43,438
Speaker 2: bag with a bottle in it that he'd take a

752
00:36:43,438 --> 00:36:45,118
Speaker 2: couple of snips at your hair. Then he'd walk over

753
00:36:45,118 --> 00:36:48,678
Speaker 2: there and take a sip of something. So I'm in

754
00:36:48,798 --> 00:36:51,838
Speaker 2: da Harmon in ninth grade, and he absolutely took a

755
00:36:51,878 --> 00:36:54,438
Speaker 2: clump of hair out of the front like this, right

756
00:36:54,478 --> 00:36:56,278
Speaker 2: in the front of my hair. So if my hair

757
00:36:56,358 --> 00:36:58,358
Speaker 2: came down and bangs it all, I was like missing

758
00:36:58,758 --> 00:37:01,598
Speaker 2: like an inch of hair right across. And I had

759
00:37:01,598 --> 00:37:03,118
Speaker 2: to live with that. My mom used to put some

760
00:37:03,198 --> 00:37:05,918
Speaker 2: kind of paste on it to make the hair like,

761
00:37:06,518 --> 00:37:09,598
Speaker 2: you know, come together, almost like a hairspray. But that's

762
00:37:09,838 --> 00:37:11,318
Speaker 2: I had to go through it. But it would take

763
00:37:11,318 --> 00:37:13,838
Speaker 2: at least a what's the difference between a good haircut

764
00:37:13,878 --> 00:37:15,638
Speaker 2: and a bad haircut? What is it about? One week?

765
00:37:15,718 --> 00:37:18,438
Speaker 2: Maybe ten days? So I had I didn't endure that,

766
00:37:18,518 --> 00:37:21,438
Speaker 2: And that's ninth grade. Man, New girlfriend all that stuff.

767
00:37:21,518 --> 00:37:24,878
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure nobody noticed, right, that was.

768
00:37:24,958 --> 00:37:27,118
Speaker 2: Torture, man, absolute torture.

769
00:37:27,398 --> 00:37:30,518
Speaker 1: Hey, the game evolves, world evolves. We know that. And

770
00:37:30,598 --> 00:37:33,678
Speaker 1: when sometimes, Joe, you look back on some statistics and

771
00:37:33,678 --> 00:37:35,598
Speaker 1: the way the game was played, and you say, did

772
00:37:35,598 --> 00:37:38,958
Speaker 1: that really happen. There's someone who passed away recently, and

773
00:37:38,998 --> 00:37:41,678
Speaker 1: I look back in his numbers, and I asked those questions.

774
00:37:42,318 --> 00:37:44,878
Speaker 1: And we'll dive into that after we take a short

775
00:37:44,878 --> 00:37:58,958
Speaker 1: break on the Book of Joe. Welcome back to the

776
00:37:58,958 --> 00:37:59,638
Speaker 1: Book of Joe.

777
00:38:00,238 --> 00:38:00,398
Speaker 2: Joe.

778
00:38:00,398 --> 00:38:02,278
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you caught the news that Eddie

779
00:38:02,278 --> 00:38:06,278
Speaker 1: Fisher passed away ball relief pitcher eighty eight years old

780
00:38:06,318 --> 00:38:09,958
Speaker 1: to pitch fifteen years the Big League, six different teams.

781
00:38:09,998 --> 00:38:14,598
Speaker 1: In his nineteen sixty five season, Eddie Fisher did not

782
00:38:14,718 --> 00:38:17,878
Speaker 1: start a game, no starts. He threw one hundred and

783
00:38:17,998 --> 00:38:21,718
Speaker 1: sixty five in the third innings. He pitched in eighty

784
00:38:21,798 --> 00:38:27,358
Speaker 1: two games, He won fifteen games, and he saved twenty

785
00:38:27,398 --> 00:38:31,118
Speaker 1: four There's nobody in the history of baseball who without

786
00:38:31,158 --> 00:38:36,358
Speaker 1: starting a game, racked up those number of innings, wins,

787
00:38:36,398 --> 00:38:39,838
Speaker 1: and saves. I mean, it was amazing. And by the way,

788
00:38:39,918 --> 00:38:41,558
Speaker 1: he was in the same bullpen that was for the

789
00:38:41,598 --> 00:38:46,158
Speaker 1: White Sox with manager Al Lopez with Hoyite Wilhelm. Al

790
00:38:46,158 --> 00:38:50,038
Speaker 1: Lopez had two knuckleball pitchers in his bullpen that he

791
00:38:50,078 --> 00:38:53,758
Speaker 1: could go to eighty two games. Basically, he's throwing two

792
00:38:53,798 --> 00:38:56,718
Speaker 1: innings every appearance. Eddie Fisher as the knuckleball pitcher in

793
00:38:56,798 --> 00:39:00,198
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five, I mean, come on, I mean, first

794
00:39:00,238 --> 00:39:02,678
Speaker 1: of all, you don't even see knuckleball pitchers anymore. I

795
00:39:02,718 --> 00:39:04,918
Speaker 1: know Matt Waldron throws one for the Padre is not

796
00:39:04,958 --> 00:39:08,278
Speaker 1: a true knuckleballer, but he does throw one that's gone away.

797
00:39:09,078 --> 00:39:11,638
Speaker 1: Having two in your bullpen and going to a guy

798
00:39:11,718 --> 00:39:13,918
Speaker 1: eighty two times to throw one hundred and sixty five

799
00:39:13,958 --> 00:39:15,238
Speaker 1: innings just wow.

800
00:39:15,718 --> 00:39:17,478
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just I knew that he was a

801
00:39:17,518 --> 00:39:20,518
Speaker 2: knuckleballer as he was describing him. I forgot that Willhelm

802
00:39:20,558 --> 00:39:22,918
Speaker 2: was on that same staff. My god, they had to

803
00:39:22,958 --> 00:39:25,798
Speaker 2: have some unhappy catchers on that team. That's not easy

804
00:39:25,798 --> 00:39:28,118
Speaker 2: to do, especially in the latter part of the game,

805
00:39:28,158 --> 00:39:30,438
Speaker 2: if you have to catch guys like that. But the

806
00:39:30,518 --> 00:39:33,838
Speaker 2: knuckleball really is kind of a stress stress free pitch

807
00:39:33,958 --> 00:39:36,558
Speaker 2: to throw. We all screwed around with it on the

808
00:39:36,638 --> 00:39:39,478
Speaker 2: sidelines when we played catch with their buds back in

809
00:39:39,518 --> 00:39:41,718
Speaker 2: the day. Even as a high school pitcher, I used

810
00:39:41,718 --> 00:39:43,678
Speaker 2: to drop one in there once in a while. But

811
00:39:43,798 --> 00:39:46,318
Speaker 2: it takes really no, very little effort to throw it. It's

812
00:39:46,478 --> 00:39:49,238
Speaker 2: almost like an accelerated game of catch a bit, so

813
00:39:49,318 --> 00:39:51,998
Speaker 2: it doesn't surprise me that he was able to do that.

814
00:39:52,278 --> 00:39:55,798
Speaker 2: I would imagine he probably rarely ever broke eighty miles

815
00:39:55,838 --> 00:39:58,678
Speaker 2: an hour. The thing about knuckleball pitchers that I always

816
00:39:58,678 --> 00:40:01,838
Speaker 2: thought is that the times they had to throw a fastball,

817
00:40:01,918 --> 00:40:04,358
Speaker 2: because they normally maybe had to throw a foul just

818
00:40:04,358 --> 00:40:06,478
Speaker 2: to get a strike, it's what they did with that

819
00:40:06,558 --> 00:40:10,358
Speaker 2: fastball that really mattered. It would surprise to hit her, obviously,

820
00:40:10,438 --> 00:40:12,638
Speaker 2: but if it's I always thought it was really important

821
00:40:12,638 --> 00:40:15,758
Speaker 2: that these guys were able to just locate and throw

822
00:40:15,998 --> 00:40:19,598
Speaker 2: a fastball strike when necessary. A really good knuckleball pitcher.

823
00:40:19,638 --> 00:40:23,078
Speaker 2: And I don't know the makeup of his routine back then,

824
00:40:23,278 --> 00:40:25,918
Speaker 2: or Willhelm although I was a fan of both, very

825
00:40:25,958 --> 00:40:28,718
Speaker 2: aware of both. Mister al Lopez the Tampa area kind

826
00:40:28,718 --> 00:40:31,038
Speaker 2: of guy here, But I think the fact that they

827
00:40:31,038 --> 00:40:35,118
Speaker 2: were knuckleballers in that era permitted them to throw as

828
00:40:35,158 --> 00:40:37,158
Speaker 2: often as they did. I'd just be curious if there

829
00:40:37,198 --> 00:40:40,118
Speaker 2: was ever any ability to run that down. How often

830
00:40:40,158 --> 00:40:43,038
Speaker 2: they threw a fastball, on how hard they threw a fastball,

831
00:40:43,478 --> 00:40:46,118
Speaker 2: and again the fact that when they did throw a fastball,

832
00:40:46,158 --> 00:40:46,958
Speaker 2: it would be a strike.

833
00:40:47,598 --> 00:40:50,598
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's as I mentioned. Al Lopez was the manager

834
00:40:50,638 --> 00:40:51,558
Speaker 1: or Hall of Fame manager.

835
00:40:51,638 --> 00:40:51,758
Speaker 2: Right.

836
00:40:51,798 --> 00:40:54,518
Speaker 1: That team won ninety five games, by the way, and

837
00:40:54,558 --> 00:40:58,078
Speaker 1: finished in second place, seven games behind the Minnesota Twins.

838
00:40:58,478 --> 00:41:00,918
Speaker 1: But here's a story from nineteen sixty four. Back then,

839
00:41:01,158 --> 00:41:03,678
Speaker 1: player reps. That was a dangerous position to have, right, Joe.

840
00:41:03,798 --> 00:41:05,998
Speaker 1: The Union was just starting out. Eddie Fisher was the

841
00:41:06,038 --> 00:41:08,518
Speaker 1: player rep. And actually, after that sixty five season where

842
00:41:08,518 --> 00:41:10,838
Speaker 1: he pitched his heart out, they traded him. The next

843
00:41:10,918 --> 00:41:14,558
Speaker 1: year Eddie Stanky was the manager. Pitched him actually three

844
00:41:14,598 --> 00:41:18,318
Speaker 1: times in the first five spring training games, which is crazy.

845
00:41:19,678 --> 00:41:21,558
Speaker 1: But they got rid of him midway through the next

846
00:41:21,558 --> 00:41:25,078
Speaker 1: season in part because he's a player's rep, which happened

847
00:41:25,118 --> 00:41:27,878
Speaker 1: back then. The Union was coming on strong and the

848
00:41:27,918 --> 00:41:31,758
Speaker 1: owners didn't like it. Anyway, nineteen sixty four, the White

849
00:41:31,758 --> 00:41:34,118
Speaker 1: Sox have a decent team, but they're not happy with

850
00:41:34,158 --> 00:41:37,078
Speaker 1: the press coverage. Right. They take issue with some of

851
00:41:37,118 --> 00:41:40,798
Speaker 1: the things the beat writers are writing. They're actually pasting

852
00:41:41,198 --> 00:41:43,798
Speaker 1: stories up on the bolton board in the clubhouse literal

853
00:41:43,998 --> 00:41:48,118
Speaker 1: bulletin board material. So one day they decide, we are

854
00:41:48,198 --> 00:41:50,638
Speaker 1: not going to talk to the press until at least

855
00:41:50,678 --> 00:41:53,078
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes goes by after the game. We're gonna make

856
00:41:53,118 --> 00:41:56,398
Speaker 1: those guys hang out outside the clubhouse stoor. That's when

857
00:41:56,398 --> 00:41:58,118
Speaker 1: you could go in right after the game. Now there

858
00:41:58,158 --> 00:42:01,598
Speaker 1: is a cooling off period. But fifteen minutes, well, the

859
00:42:01,678 --> 00:42:05,438
Speaker 1: manager al Lopez says, guys, you really shouldn't do this.

860
00:42:05,478 --> 00:42:07,318
Speaker 1: Can you at least get it down to ten minutes?

861
00:42:07,438 --> 00:42:10,998
Speaker 1: And the players agreed, so ten minutes they would lock

862
00:42:11,078 --> 00:42:13,838
Speaker 1: the door, not literally, but the door is locked. But

863
00:42:13,878 --> 00:42:17,838
Speaker 1: then al Lopez told his beat writers, guys, you guys

864
00:42:18,118 --> 00:42:21,198
Speaker 1: walk through the walk through the dugout to come to

865
00:42:21,238 --> 00:42:24,638
Speaker 1: my office. My door will be open. You can come

866
00:42:24,678 --> 00:42:27,278
Speaker 1: to my office first. I'm not sure whether the practice

867
00:42:27,278 --> 00:42:30,438
Speaker 1: to talk to the manager first started then, but how

868
00:42:30,438 --> 00:42:33,278
Speaker 1: about that the manager is taking care of their reporters

869
00:42:33,278 --> 00:42:36,678
Speaker 1: back then, saying instead of waiting outside, why don't you

870
00:42:36,678 --> 00:42:39,878
Speaker 1: guys walk through the dugout come to my office. We'll

871
00:42:39,878 --> 00:42:42,278
Speaker 1: do our interview first, and by then the ten minutes

872
00:42:42,278 --> 00:42:44,798
Speaker 1: will be over with. I mean it sounds like a

873
00:42:44,838 --> 00:42:47,438
Speaker 1: repudiation of his own players, but he's taking care of

874
00:42:47,518 --> 00:42:49,278
Speaker 1: the press. I gotta love that.

875
00:42:49,518 --> 00:42:51,438
Speaker 2: Isn't that what happens? Now? Did he start it? I mean,

876
00:42:51,518 --> 00:42:52,718
Speaker 2: is that how this whole thing started.

877
00:42:52,798 --> 00:42:55,078
Speaker 1: I don't know if he started it, but generally, I mean,

878
00:42:55,278 --> 00:42:57,918
Speaker 1: clubhouse opens maybe ten minutes after the game. The manager

879
00:42:57,918 --> 00:43:00,198
Speaker 1: always does talk first. But if you if you want

880
00:43:00,238 --> 00:43:02,398
Speaker 1: to skip the manager, you can just go straight to

881
00:43:02,398 --> 00:43:03,318
Speaker 1: the clubhouse if you want.

882
00:43:03,398 --> 00:43:06,318
Speaker 2: Got you, Yeah, But it seems like pretty much it's

883
00:43:06,398 --> 00:43:08,998
Speaker 2: the routine. A lot of teams right now have the

884
00:43:09,718 --> 00:43:12,758
Speaker 2: press room, Like Chicago was right across the hall from

885
00:43:12,798 --> 00:43:16,558
Speaker 2: the manager's office, which was really convenient and good. I

886
00:43:16,678 --> 00:43:20,838
Speaker 2: like the idea of permitting people to settle down a bit,

887
00:43:20,838 --> 00:43:23,078
Speaker 2: I do. I think that's a great idea. I didn't

888
00:43:23,078 --> 00:43:25,478
Speaker 2: realize that was not really a part of the fabric

889
00:43:25,558 --> 00:43:27,958
Speaker 2: back in the day, because since I was doing it,

890
00:43:27,998 --> 00:43:29,838
Speaker 2: pretty much was like they would always come to me

891
00:43:29,878 --> 00:43:32,238
Speaker 2: first and they would filter out into the clubhouse second.

892
00:43:32,678 --> 00:43:34,038
Speaker 2: But you have to understand that. I mean, if a

893
00:43:34,038 --> 00:43:36,918
Speaker 2: guys had a bad day, gosh, it's tough when you

894
00:43:36,958 --> 00:43:39,158
Speaker 2: get in there. If they've came and hits three home

895
00:43:39,238 --> 00:43:41,518
Speaker 2: runs to go talk to tomulus Sordo right afterwards is

896
00:43:41,558 --> 00:43:44,078
Speaker 2: not a good idea. You know, there's there's a cooling

897
00:43:44,118 --> 00:43:47,798
Speaker 2: off period that's absolutely necessary. And a lot of situations

898
00:43:47,838 --> 00:43:51,638
Speaker 2: it's hard you lose a tough game, or if particularly

899
00:43:51,718 --> 00:43:54,878
Speaker 2: if as a player you feel like somewhat responsible for

900
00:43:54,918 --> 00:43:57,158
Speaker 2: the team, not when you're as a manager you really felt,

901
00:43:57,558 --> 00:43:59,878
Speaker 2: you know, kind of ambivalent about a decision that you make.

902
00:44:00,478 --> 00:44:02,558
Speaker 2: You still got to like kind of filter through that

903
00:44:02,598 --> 00:44:04,318
Speaker 2: come to terms that they're just a little bit so

904
00:44:04,838 --> 00:44:07,438
Speaker 2: I like a little a little buffer in there. And

905
00:44:08,478 --> 00:44:11,558
Speaker 2: realizing that mister Lopez decided to do that, I think

906
00:44:11,558 --> 00:44:13,718
Speaker 2: that's pressing on his part. That's pretty cool.

907
00:44:13,958 --> 00:44:16,678
Speaker 1: That is very cool. As you know, the manager jobs

908
00:44:16,838 --> 00:44:19,278
Speaker 1: at Joe and you're so good at this, and Joe

909
00:44:19,318 --> 00:44:21,598
Speaker 1: Torre as well, and I think Aaron Boone actually does

910
00:44:21,598 --> 00:44:24,918
Speaker 1: a good job too. You're really a buffer for your players, right,

911
00:44:25,038 --> 00:44:26,718
Speaker 1: I mean, you can make you can take the heat

912
00:44:26,718 --> 00:44:30,798
Speaker 1: off your players by setting the narrative. In that initial

913
00:44:30,838 --> 00:44:33,038
Speaker 1: press conference after the game, something happened in the game,

914
00:44:33,638 --> 00:44:36,638
Speaker 1: and and Bobby Cox was another one like this. I

915
00:44:36,678 --> 00:44:40,918
Speaker 1: remember Tom Glavin telling me Tom Glavin, just have a rare,

916
00:44:41,118 --> 00:44:43,838
Speaker 1: really really bad game. Nothing was working, making a lot

917
00:44:43,838 --> 00:44:48,198
Speaker 1: of mistakes, ready to wear it, and Bobby Cox would

918
00:44:48,238 --> 00:44:51,398
Speaker 1: have the reporters in his office first as customary, and

919
00:44:51,478 --> 00:44:54,198
Speaker 1: Cox would basically say Tom Glavin was great, he was

920
00:44:54,238 --> 00:44:56,878
Speaker 1: just unlucky, like he watched a completely different game. He's

921
00:44:56,958 --> 00:44:59,278
Speaker 1: just taking care of his guy. But now you establish

922
00:44:59,358 --> 00:45:02,038
Speaker 1: a narrative with the media and they follow up with

923
00:45:02,078 --> 00:45:03,958
Speaker 1: Glavin and they say, well, I guess you were a

924
00:45:03,958 --> 00:45:06,598
Speaker 1: little unlucky. Some calls didn't go your ways and bounces.

925
00:45:06,998 --> 00:45:09,078
Speaker 1: It's such a I don't want to say it's a gift,

926
00:45:09,078 --> 00:45:11,598
Speaker 1: but it is kind of a skill for managers, isn't

927
00:45:11,598 --> 00:45:16,038
Speaker 1: it to really set the narrative. And I'm not saying

928
00:45:16,078 --> 00:45:19,318
Speaker 1: you can control it, but you know, at least you

929
00:45:19,318 --> 00:45:21,758
Speaker 1: can put a word out there and drive where the

930
00:45:21,798 --> 00:45:22,998
Speaker 1: discussions are going.

931
00:45:22,998 --> 00:45:26,558
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. I mean, I always thought that every

932
00:45:26,598 --> 00:45:28,798
Speaker 2: press conference I had was kind of a team meeting

933
00:45:29,678 --> 00:45:32,198
Speaker 2: because I wasn't really into team meeting. So I knew,

934
00:45:32,638 --> 00:45:34,438
Speaker 2: for the most part, players are going to read or

935
00:45:34,478 --> 00:45:36,878
Speaker 2: somebody's going to read and tell them about or they'll

936
00:45:37,038 --> 00:45:40,278
Speaker 2: catch a clip on television at some point of you speaking.

937
00:45:40,398 --> 00:45:42,318
Speaker 2: So if you want to get a point across. I

938
00:45:42,358 --> 00:45:44,598
Speaker 2: always try to get it across in a positive way

939
00:45:45,118 --> 00:45:48,358
Speaker 2: and always shine a positive light on the player. If

940
00:45:48,358 --> 00:45:51,958
Speaker 2: I had something on a negative issue with the with

941
00:45:52,038 --> 00:45:55,638
Speaker 2: the player, I would get him privately. Early on in

942
00:45:55,678 --> 00:46:00,158
Speaker 2: my managerial career, somebody spoke those words to me praise publicly,

943
00:46:00,198 --> 00:46:04,638
Speaker 2: criticized privately. Woof did that stick with me so? Well? Yes,

944
00:46:05,638 --> 00:46:08,838
Speaker 2: you know you tell you tell the press. I always

945
00:46:08,878 --> 00:46:11,358
Speaker 2: wanted to be on another thing was absolutely honest with

946
00:46:11,398 --> 00:46:14,918
Speaker 2: the press, and sometimes being honest would just be like

947
00:46:14,958 --> 00:46:16,958
Speaker 2: I would tell listen, I really can't tell you everything,

948
00:46:17,038 --> 00:46:19,358
Speaker 2: or I can't I really can't answer that question right now,

949
00:46:19,438 --> 00:46:21,878
Speaker 2: but I would be honest about it because you don't

950
00:46:21,878 --> 00:46:24,038
Speaker 2: want to lead them in the wrong direction. Ever. So

951
00:46:24,078 --> 00:46:26,158
Speaker 2: that was big for me and part of the what

952
00:46:26,198 --> 00:46:29,278
Speaker 2: people don't understand, like post games, something may have happened

953
00:46:29,318 --> 00:46:31,718
Speaker 2: in injury wise, or something may have happened where you

954
00:46:31,798 --> 00:46:33,438
Speaker 2: might be making a move, and a lot of times

955
00:46:33,478 --> 00:46:36,078
Speaker 2: the front office will generate like the first part of

956
00:46:36,078 --> 00:46:40,078
Speaker 2: this news conference to you by advising you how you

957
00:46:40,118 --> 00:46:42,838
Speaker 2: want they want you to frame this going forward, so

958
00:46:42,878 --> 00:46:45,878
Speaker 2: that you don't part of it's good because you want

959
00:46:45,878 --> 00:46:49,038
Speaker 2: to be on the same path message wise, so you

960
00:46:49,038 --> 00:46:52,238
Speaker 2: don't want to be disputing one another's message, so that

961
00:46:52,238 --> 00:46:54,438
Speaker 2: that's also part of this, and I think that's good

962
00:46:54,638 --> 00:46:57,078
Speaker 2: because when it comes down to like situations where really

963
00:46:57,118 --> 00:47:00,158
Speaker 2: can be impactful to a player is psyche or maybe

964
00:47:00,238 --> 00:47:03,158
Speaker 2: his near future, you definitely want to be on the

965
00:47:03,198 --> 00:47:05,998
Speaker 2: same page with that. So there's warrant to this. Then

966
00:47:06,238 --> 00:47:09,158
Speaker 2: people understand. I do agree with that. I do agree

967
00:47:09,198 --> 00:47:12,198
Speaker 2: with the messaging being consistent, but I also agree with

968
00:47:12,238 --> 00:47:15,958
Speaker 2: the message being honest and straightforward. So sometimes I was

969
00:47:15,998 --> 00:47:18,198
Speaker 2: at odds with front offices because they would want to

970
00:47:18,758 --> 00:47:21,278
Speaker 2: dissemble a bit, and I didn't want to dissemble. I

971
00:47:21,318 --> 00:47:23,158
Speaker 2: wanted to go Jack Ryan. I always wanted to tell

972
00:47:23,198 --> 00:47:25,598
Speaker 2: you exactly what I got here. But if I can't

973
00:47:25,638 --> 00:47:27,918
Speaker 2: tell you exactly what I got, I would tell you

974
00:47:27,918 --> 00:47:29,558
Speaker 2: that I can't, and that would be one of the

975
00:47:29,558 --> 00:47:31,198
Speaker 2: first things I would say to the group as they

976
00:47:31,198 --> 00:47:34,478
Speaker 2: came in. But yes, you're always as a manager, you're

977
00:47:34,518 --> 00:47:35,918
Speaker 2: always there to protect your brood.

978
00:47:36,238 --> 00:47:38,438
Speaker 1: Well, here at the Book of Joe, you are are

979
00:47:38,678 --> 00:47:41,878
Speaker 1: Jack Ryan. You're also our Eddie Fisher where I hand

980
00:47:41,918 --> 00:47:43,998
Speaker 1: you a ball to close it out and you go long.

981
00:47:44,198 --> 00:47:47,278
Speaker 1: You're not just a three out guy. So I know

982
00:47:47,318 --> 00:47:49,598
Speaker 1: you always bring us words of wisdom. What do you

983
00:47:49,598 --> 00:47:51,798
Speaker 1: have this time to close out this edition of the

984
00:47:51,838 --> 00:47:52,518
Speaker 1: Book of Joe.

985
00:47:53,678 --> 00:47:55,878
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I'm just like you brought it up

986
00:47:55,878 --> 00:48:00,198
Speaker 2: earlier in a different way of talking about change, whether

987
00:48:00,238 --> 00:48:04,998
Speaker 2: it's the Yankees changing their thoughts on their hair policy,

988
00:48:05,558 --> 00:48:08,918
Speaker 2: the changes in the game regarding rule changes, the fact

989
00:48:08,958 --> 00:48:13,158
Speaker 2: that pictures come out throwing heat from the very first

990
00:48:13,198 --> 00:48:15,638
Speaker 2: spring training game as opposed to guys working their way

991
00:48:16,838 --> 00:48:18,798
Speaker 2: in the shapes. And I just got a bunch of

992
00:48:18,838 --> 00:48:22,238
Speaker 2: stuff here that I was all about. The word change,

993
00:48:22,358 --> 00:48:27,198
Speaker 2: and that's what we're basically talking about here. So I

994
00:48:27,278 --> 00:48:28,918
Speaker 2: was like a lot. I had a lot going on

995
00:48:28,958 --> 00:48:31,358
Speaker 2: this morning thinking about all this. But you know, part

996
00:48:31,358 --> 00:48:34,358
Speaker 2: of it is adapt adaptation. Intelligence is the ability to

997
00:48:34,398 --> 00:48:38,798
Speaker 2: adapt to change. Again, because I just talked about Listen,

998
00:48:38,878 --> 00:48:41,678
Speaker 2: I wouldn't like the idea of having to cut my hair,

999
00:48:42,158 --> 00:48:45,078
Speaker 2: but I would have done it. Colin Powell. A great

1000
00:48:45,118 --> 00:48:48,798
Speaker 2: line from Colin Powell to regarding how we advised the president.

1001
00:48:48,878 --> 00:48:50,758
Speaker 2: I give him my best advice, and then I give

1002
00:48:50,838 --> 00:48:56,318
Speaker 2: him my strongest loyalty. Change adaptation the ability to I

1003
00:48:56,318 --> 00:48:58,598
Speaker 2: don't want to say play along, but be a team player.

1004
00:48:59,118 --> 00:49:00,998
Speaker 2: So at the end of the day, let me see

1005
00:49:01,038 --> 00:49:02,838
Speaker 2: if I could just sum this all up. If you

1006
00:49:02,838 --> 00:49:05,558
Speaker 2: don't like something, change, If you can't change it, change

1007
00:49:05,558 --> 00:49:08,238
Speaker 2: your attitude. And I talk to myself about that all

1008
00:49:08,278 --> 00:49:10,998
Speaker 2: the time too, you know, because I do. I do

1009
00:49:11,758 --> 00:49:18,278
Speaker 2: get passionate about subjects that I believe are wrong and appropriate.

1010
00:49:19,318 --> 00:49:21,598
Speaker 2: I like my thoughts better. But at the end of

1011
00:49:21,638 --> 00:49:26,158
Speaker 2: the day, sometimes you just have to, you know, work

1012
00:49:26,238 --> 00:49:29,678
Speaker 2: your thoughts at the point where you don't give up

1013
00:49:29,718 --> 00:49:32,518
Speaker 2: on your your philosophies and what you believe in. But

1014
00:49:32,558 --> 00:49:34,358
Speaker 2: at some point you have to morph it a little

1015
00:49:34,398 --> 00:49:37,478
Speaker 2: bit to fit into this group and make it better.

1016
00:49:37,598 --> 00:49:40,438
Speaker 2: So if you don't like something, change it. If you

1017
00:49:40,478 --> 00:49:43,158
Speaker 2: can't change it, change your attitude. And at the end

1018
00:49:43,158 --> 00:49:45,318
Speaker 2: of the day, attitude is a decision. Listen. I could

1019
00:49:45,358 --> 00:49:47,718
Speaker 2: go on and on about this stuff, but that's it.

1020
00:49:47,798 --> 00:49:51,078
Speaker 2: They're all interchangeable. Regarding what we talked about today.

1021
00:49:50,918 --> 00:49:53,198
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great reminder, because let's face it, it's

1022
00:49:53,278 --> 00:49:56,398
Speaker 1: human nature to resist change, right, we don't like change.

1023
00:49:56,438 --> 00:49:58,838
Speaker 1: The easy thing to do is always to stay the

1024
00:49:58,878 --> 00:50:01,638
Speaker 1: course and not to change. And yet we just spent

1025
00:50:01,838 --> 00:50:06,078
Speaker 1: most of this episode talking about change and adaptability. Super important,

1026
00:50:06,478 --> 00:50:08,878
Speaker 1: absolutely good stuff. Job. We'll see you next time on

1027
00:50:08,918 --> 00:50:09,558
Speaker 1: the Book of Joe.

1028
00:50:09,718 --> 00:50:10,878
Speaker 2: Thanks Tommy, you will.

1029
00:50:18,358 --> 00:50:21,598
Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

1030
00:50:21,798 --> 00:50:26,798
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1031
00:50:26,918 --> 00:50:28,678
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.