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Speaker 1: Hello thereon, Welcome to the Monday episode of the check podcast.

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Speaker 1: It is our first one for I guess it's not

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Speaker 1: calendar spring because we haven't hit calendar spring yet. I

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Speaker 1: think meteorological spring has already happened. So I guess we

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Speaker 1: have the government control version of spring, meaning Congress decided

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Speaker 1: to set this ridiculously early version of daylight savings into

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Speaker 1: early March, and so here we are. But I have

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Speaker 1: to tell you it actually is coinciding with our first

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Speaker 1: seventy degrees, sort of multiple seventy degree to days in

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Speaker 1: a row. So what does this mean? Short sleeves, actual

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Speaker 1: short sleeves. I'm not ready to put the quarter zip,

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Speaker 1: the long sleep quarter zips in the mothballs just yet. Mothballs.

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Speaker 1: I am probably dating myself. I don't know anybody uses

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Speaker 1: mouthballs anymore, but I go back. It's a distinct smell

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Speaker 1: of my old great grandmother's house back in the day,

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Speaker 1: the smell of mothballs and protecting all of her winter clothes.

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Speaker 1: But I digress. Here we are a tad bit of

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Speaker 1: a wardrobe change, so we've got good fun there. But hey,

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Speaker 1: it hasn't been a light weekend, and that's the thing

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Speaker 1: we are in. We are in some heavy days these days,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't look like it's going to get lighter

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Speaker 1: anytime soon. Let me give you a quick rundown. Got

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Speaker 1: sort of a big picture, sort of big picture sort

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Speaker 1: of political analysis for sort of the moment we're in,

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Speaker 1: the moment, the president's in the moment, the Republican Party

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Speaker 1: is in. My interview today is none other than ken Burn's.

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Speaker 1: I booked him a while ago, back during when the

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Speaker 1: American Revolution. It was sort of peeking and interested people

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Speaker 1: were downloading, but we went bigger than that. We talked

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Speaker 1: a lot about America to fifty you know, how to

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Speaker 1: make documentary films, sort of how he pulled off the

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Speaker 1: American Revolution in a polarizing era and didn't really have

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Speaker 1: people angry at him left or right, which is a

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Speaker 1: remarkable thing. So I know, no one, my listeners, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna love the ken Burns conversation. I've done Ken a

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Speaker 1: long time, and it is always a treat to spend

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Speaker 1: time with him, whether it's ten minutes or an hour,

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Speaker 1: and to have an hour with him, I count myself lucky.

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Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy that conversation. But we got sort

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Speaker 1: of everything you need to know about politics at this moment.

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Speaker 1: We got my ken Burns interview we will have this

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Speaker 1: week in history. Here's a clue. I'm actually there's two

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Speaker 1: remarkable anniversaries this week, March tenth and March twelfth. They

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Speaker 1: both have to do with mass with communications, not necessarily

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Speaker 1: mass communications, but with communications. That's the hint I will

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Speaker 1: give you now. But we will go into the time

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Speaker 1: machine after we do the ken Burns interview. Then we'll

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Speaker 1: do some questions, and let's just say I have a

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Speaker 1: few thoughts on President Trump's ridiculous attempt to try to

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Speaker 1: fix college sports, of which I don't think he really

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Speaker 1: had any interest in fixing college sports. But I digress.

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Speaker 1: I'm not kicking off with that as tempting as you

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Speaker 1: might think it might be for me. But instead we're

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Speaker 1: going to start where it's just one of those moments.

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Speaker 1: And I've talked to you about it before. You don't

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Speaker 1: know when presidencies end. You don't know when they're essentially

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Speaker 1: over as far as the public's concerned until after the fact.

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Speaker 1: I'm not guaranteeing we're in one of those moments at

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Speaker 1: this moment, but boy, does this start to look like

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Speaker 1: one of those moments when you compare it to other

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Speaker 1: times in history. So I think the best way to

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Speaker 1: describe the moment President Trump is currently in is that

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Speaker 1: he's got himself in what I would call presidential Quicksand

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Speaker 1: one of the defining features of second term presidencies in

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Speaker 1: particular is that once events begin moving against you, it

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Speaker 1: becomes much harder to reverse the momentum. Right, you know,

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Speaker 1: I love that Haley barberism, who I know he stole

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Speaker 1: from somebody else, so don't bother with the sending me

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Speaker 1: notes about that. But you know, good gets better, bad

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Speaker 1: gets worse. Well, when you look at the last three

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Speaker 1: weeks of the Republican Party, bad and Donald Trump's efforts

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Speaker 1: on it, bad is certainly slipping into worse all over

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Speaker 1: the spectrum. And that's why I think the moment I

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Speaker 1: would describe him in is quick saying, because every decision

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Speaker 1: that is meant to stabilize things can actually deepen the problem. Right,

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Speaker 1: you thrash, you get stuck even more. I guess you

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Speaker 1: could also say it's a Chinese finger trap, right, but

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Speaker 1: every show of strength actually ends up revealing weakness, particularly

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Speaker 1: with this president, and it's the nature of quicksand the

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Speaker 1: hearder you thrash, the deeper you sink. And right now,

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Speaker 1: that's what the presidency looks like. You see it in Iran,

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Speaker 1: you see it in the economy, you see it in

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Speaker 1: this tariff mess, you see it actually in corporate America

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Speaker 1: starting to push back. I think an underreported story from

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Speaker 1: last week, I understand why it is on are reported.

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Speaker 1: We're we're we're just we just created an open ended

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Speaker 1: war in Iran that I don't know how we get

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Speaker 1: out of and increasingly you actually see it show itself

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Speaker 1: on the political map. So let's start with Iran. This

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Speaker 1: is the clearest example of the quick stand effect. The

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Speaker 1: war is now more than a week old. More than

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Speaker 1: a thousand people are dead in Iran. Videos of massive

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Speaker 1: fires in Tehran after strikes on oil storage facilities dominated

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Speaker 1: social media over the weekend. Across the region. The conflict

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Speaker 1: is already expanding beyond simple military targets. There are now

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Speaker 1: attacks on infrastructure, including desalination plants across the Gulf. This is,

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Speaker 1: you know, the more infrastructure we destroy in Iran that

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Speaker 1: has nothing to do with their with their military, that's

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Speaker 1: that's how you lose hearts and minds. So I certainly

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Speaker 1: think our targeting needs needs to improve. And if they

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Speaker 1: think that, hey, let's punish more of the Iranian people

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Speaker 1: because you don't think they're rising up enough to overthrow

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Speaker 1: the regime, I don't think you quite understand what you've done.

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Speaker 1: So the opening phase of this war has already cost,

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Speaker 1: according to what the Pentagon has told Congress in this

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Speaker 1: first week, six billion dollars. So essentially it's six billion dollars.

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Speaker 1: Is that what we're looking at six billion dollars a week. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so he says four or five weeks, thirty billion dollars, right,

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Speaker 1: we already know they're thinking about a fifty billion dollars supplement.

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Speaker 1: Do we really think this is going to end in

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Speaker 1: four or five weeks? But here we are six billion

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Speaker 1: dollars one week. Conflict of course, shows no shine, no

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Speaker 1: sign of show slowing down. Now there are reports of the

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Speaker 1: United States and Israel are discussing the possibility of sending

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Speaker 1: special forces into Iran to seize the uranium stockpiles. This

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Speaker 1: is Mission Creek right, much deeper involvement, actual boots on

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Speaker 1: the ground. Sure, you may say it's just special forces.

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Speaker 1: I have to tell you, I can't tell you how

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Speaker 1: many times presidents think US special forces, our special forces

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Speaker 1: are outstanding, whether they're the Navy Seals, the Army rangers.

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Speaker 1: But his boots on the ground. Let's not pretend it

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Speaker 1: is anything otherwise. And for those guys, we put more

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Speaker 1: on their shoulders than we probably should any set of

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Speaker 1: human beings. But I digress. Meanwhile, the President is describing

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Speaker 1: the war as a short excursion, while also leaving the

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Speaker 1: door open to putting American troops on the ground if

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Speaker 1: there were, in his words, a very good reason. So

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Speaker 1: the fact that he's listening to this and one thing

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Speaker 1: about military commanders, they don't like. They're not going to

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Speaker 1: want to lose a war. They're not going to want

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Speaker 1: to walk away. And trust me, Trump's going to this

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Speaker 1: is what's coming. Trump's going to want to walk away

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Speaker 1: sooner than is possible, and it is going to cause

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Speaker 1: even more chaos when he gets to that moment. That said,

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Speaker 1: there are two ideas that don't coexist very easily, right,

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Speaker 1: which is this idea that we might put troops on

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Speaker 1: the ground or we might just get it and out.

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Speaker 1: When presidents get into conflicts like this without a clear

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Speaker 1: strategic endgame, and trust me, there is none, the logic

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Speaker 1: of escalation begins to take over. First it's air strikes,

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Speaker 1: then it's deeper strikes. Right, we went from military infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: Now we're going to basic country infrastructure. Then it's the

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Speaker 1: special forces. Right, we're just talking about it now, but

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Speaker 1: we feel the need we have to secure their radio.

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Speaker 1: Then someone inevitably asks whether boots on the ground are

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Speaker 1: necessary to finish the job keep the peace. In order

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Speaker 1: to try to help this country stand itself up. I

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Speaker 1: unfortunately left out the likelihood of a civil war because

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Speaker 1: that's growing with every day that there is not a

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Speaker 1: full fledged regime change. History is a very clear record

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Speaker 1: on this question. If you want regime change from the

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Speaker 1: air alone, then you need to have a coherent opposition

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Speaker 1: ready to step in. And while there is plenty of

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Speaker 1: discontent all around, Iran do not have a unified opposition

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Speaker 1: ready to run this country tomorrow, despite the fantasies in

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Speaker 1: President Trump's head, and whatever networks did exist were severely

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Speaker 1: weakened by the regimes cracked down on protesters over the

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Speaker 1: past two months. So the potential leaders are either being

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Speaker 1: killed or they're very far underground. So the fantasy scenario

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Speaker 1: that you remove the leadership with in a new political

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Speaker 1: order magically appears. This is simply not grounded in reality.

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Speaker 1: And there's another irony here. Trump of all people, should

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Speaker 1: understand the ideological loyalty that exists in Iran. His own

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Speaker 1: political basis stuck with him through every controversy imaginable. In fact,

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Speaker 1: the most remarkable thing about all the polling we've seen

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Speaker 1: in the last week is how those that describe themselves

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Speaker 1: as maga are more supportive of these strikes than those

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Speaker 1: who say they're not a part of the Mega movement. Right,

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Speaker 1: the MAGA influencers don't like this war and don't let right,

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Speaker 1: But for now, you know Trump's The devotion to Trump

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Speaker 1: among MAGA is real. Right, They're more devoted to Trump

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Speaker 1: on this issue than the Mega influences are, which is

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Speaker 1: an interesting Now. That doesn't mean this won't chip away

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Speaker 1: over time, But right now, the president has blind loyalty

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Speaker 1: among his base, and so it shouldn't surprise him that

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Speaker 1: the Iranian regime, a theocracy that's been in place for

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Speaker 1: nearly fifty years, has blind loyalty. But the fact that

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Speaker 1: he seems surprised that the Iranian regime has these supporters

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Speaker 1: willing to defend itself despite hardship or chaos. The fact

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Speaker 1: that he's surprised by this shows you how how he

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Speaker 1: doesn't quite understand how the world works. It's a fundamental

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Speaker 1: misunderstanding of political movements, and it leads to some bad

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Speaker 1: strategic assumptions, because when you misread the internal dynamics of

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Speaker 1: another country, for some rarely produces the outcome you imagine,

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Speaker 1: which brings us back to the bigger problem. Once you

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Speaker 1: are in the quicksand of a conflict like this, it's

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Speaker 1: very difficult to exit cleanly. At some point, the president

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Speaker 1: is likely going to just say, hey, we did it.

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Speaker 1: It's time to move on, right when he knows that

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Speaker 1: this thing is just killing him domestically, politically, right, I

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Speaker 1: sort of joke remembered, remember when Pam Bondy lost her

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Speaker 1: shit talking about Dow. Why are you asking about Dow

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand? Well, how about Dow forty nine thousand, how

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Speaker 1: about Dow forty eight thousand, how about Dow forty seven thousand.

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Speaker 1: It's almost as if Pam Bondy said it out loud, right,

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Speaker 1: don't say it out loud, she says it out loud.

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Speaker 1: And it's been nothing but a sell off, nothing but

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Speaker 1: a sell off. And mark my words, this is selling Trump.

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Speaker 1: This is selling Trump. This market collapses, Trump realizing he

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Speaker 1: has no idea what he's doing in this war, no

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Speaker 1: idea what he's doing on the economy. They're starting to

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Speaker 1: sell him. This really is his economy and his stock market.

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Speaker 1: And we know how much this is impacting his head,

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Speaker 1: and it will so he's you know, he's going to

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Speaker 1: try He's been trying all sorts of things. We're winning,

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Speaker 1: it's going great, it's over. They've apologized all these crazy

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Speaker 1: truth social posts that like have nothing in common with

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Speaker 1: reality on the ground, And so his impatience is coming.

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Speaker 1: We know this. I mean, I actually am pretty confident

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Speaker 1: he isn't going to put boots on the ground because

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Speaker 1: he's so scared politically. But the ineptness of what he's

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Speaker 1: doing here is actually going to create more chaos and

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Speaker 1: more instability, and we're actually going to get to the

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Speaker 1: point where we might we might almost have no choice

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Speaker 1: but to put boots on the ground. Now, let's talk

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Speaker 1: about the economic quicksan, and the danger for Trump is

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Speaker 1: that Iran is not the only front where the ground

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Speaker 1: is getting unstable beneath his feet. Look at this economy.

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Speaker 1: This latest jobs report has raised more questions than it answered.

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Speaker 1: One month doesn't make a trend, we all know that.

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Speaker 1: But the broader signals that's in this report is increasingly concerning.

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Speaker 1: So you've got a bunch of slower growth indicators. You've

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Speaker 1: got rising energy anxiety because of the war. You've got

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Speaker 1: uncertainty around tariffs and trade policy. Federal Reserve is staring

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Speaker 1: at the worst possible combination slow in growth and rising prices.

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Speaker 1: It's what was deemed stagflation. Right, it's like the worst

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Speaker 1: of all worlds. Look in this. It's one month's job report,

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Speaker 1: but just like the last. It's interesting that last job

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Speaker 1: report we got was shockingly good. This job's report for

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Speaker 1: some people with shockingly back. The question is which one

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Speaker 1: fits the world you're actually living in. That good job's

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Speaker 1: report was more of a shocker because it didn't seem

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Speaker 1: to fit what was happening in real life. This job's

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Speaker 1: report sadly fits what appears to be happening in real life. Right.

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Speaker 1: The fact that productivity went up, can you say, AI,

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Speaker 1: anybody but we but are but the but the job

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Speaker 1: jobs actually shrink again one month does not make a

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Speaker 1: trend extraordinarily concerning. And we haven't even and this hasn't

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Speaker 1: even factored in rising gas prices and rising energy costs,

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Speaker 1: which are a whole other level of economic uncertainty. So now, politically,

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Speaker 1: this is incredibly dangerous territory for Trump because voters did

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Speaker 1: not elect him to manage a complicated geopolitical crisis. They

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Speaker 1: did not want this. In fact, it was one of

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Speaker 1: the features of Trump's candidacy is that he was loudly

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Speaker 1: proclaiming he wasn't going to do things like this. Ronald

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Speaker 1: Trump got elected for one reason by this small slice

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Speaker 1: of voters who decided to go from Biden to Trump.

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Speaker 1: They believed he would bring down the cost of prices,

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Speaker 1: that he was going to manage the economy better than

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Speaker 1: Biden or Kamala Harris. That was the job description, period

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Speaker 1: and distory. But the policies we've seen so far have

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Speaker 1: done the exact opposite. Tariffs raising prices, trade disruption raising prices,

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Speaker 1: geopolitical instability raising prices, all moving this economy in the

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Speaker 1: opposite direction. Prices are under pressure, the markets are jittery,

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Speaker 1: businesses are uncertain about the rules. And that matters because

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Speaker 1: the voters who put Trump back into the White House,

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Speaker 1: not his loyal base who will literally do whatever he says,

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Speaker 1: but the ones, the actual swing voters. They were not

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Speaker 1: the diehard loyalists. These voters will stick with him. The

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Speaker 1: loyalists will stick with them through everything we're seeing. This.

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Speaker 1: The fact that the so called self described magabase as

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Speaker 1: sticking with him with this foreign war excursion that he's

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Speaker 1: doing tells you everything you need to know about the

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Speaker 1: loyalty of the magabase, and you see it in the polls.

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Speaker 1: There's great new NBC News, you know, the premium NBC

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Speaker 1: News poll is out, Hart mcinturf, Bill McInturff, Jeff Horwick,

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Speaker 1: and it shows that in some ways his base hasn't

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Speaker 1: really gone anywhere, but everybody else has moved hard against him,

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Speaker 1: including that slice of swing voters that took him from

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Speaker 1: losing in twenty twenty to winning in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: And the voters who matter politically the most at the

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Speaker 1: moment are the conditional supporters, the people who said, I

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Speaker 1: may not love the chaos that he brings, but he

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Speaker 1: understands the economy and at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: that's really all I care about. And if that bargain breaks,

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Speaker 1: the coalition breaks, and we're already seeing, right, the last

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Speaker 1: ones in have been the first ones out in first

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Speaker 1: out is a rule at corporate America sometimes when there's

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Speaker 1: job cuts, and it's also a rule in political coalitions.

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Speaker 1: The last ones to join your coalition are usually the

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Speaker 1: first ones at flee when the going gets tough. It's

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Speaker 1: another way that presidential quicksand works. The response from a

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Speaker 1: president like Trump is usually more aggression, more promises, more

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Speaker 1: dramatic actions, but usually those actions simply deepen the instability.

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Speaker 1: Then there's the tariff mess. This is quicksand in legal form,

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court is struck down right Trump's emergency terff regime.

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Speaker 1: The administration is continues to find ways. You know, they're

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Speaker 1: looking for ways to discourage companies from collecting stolen money.

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Speaker 1: Now right, it's now money that does not belong to

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Speaker 1: the government. It belongs to these businesses that paid them.

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Speaker 1: And then, of course they may belong to the consumers

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Speaker 1: that those businesses raise prices on. We're talking billions of

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Speaker 1: dollars that businesses were forced to pay under a policy

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Speaker 1: the court has deemed unconstitutional illegal. So even after losing

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Speaker 1: in court, the administration appears to be looking for ways

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Speaker 1: to hold onto this money, such a Donald Trump move, right,

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Speaker 1: the guy who never pays his contractors. It's not just

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Speaker 1: politically risky. It reinforces a deeper pattern here, right, just

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Speaker 1: governing by improvisation instead of building policy through Congress. The

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Speaker 1: administration imposted sweeping terriffs through more emergency authority. More emergency

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Speaker 1: authority that's likely unconstitutional, unclear at this time, I think

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Speaker 1: businesses are going to be more likely to sue the

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Speaker 1: bigger businesses. It is ironic that none of the big

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Speaker 1: businesses who were hit harder by tariffs than the small

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Speaker 1: businesses had the guts to sue this administration. I'm looking

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Speaker 1: at you, Amazon in Walmart. But it was the small

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Speaker 1: business it said, had the guts to stand up to

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Speaker 1: the tyranny of these tariffs, and they want. But instead

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Speaker 1: of accepting the ruling of the Judiciary branch, the White

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Speaker 1: House is still searching for another workaround, and all it's

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Speaker 1: turning into is more quicksand. A shortcut creates a mess,

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Speaker 1: The mess requires a workaround. The workaround creates another legal vulnerability,

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Speaker 1: and instead of projecting strength, the Presidency begins to look

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Speaker 1: reactive and trapped again quicksand and it may explain why

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Speaker 1: corporate America feels comfortable to start pushing back. This was

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Speaker 1: something that felt very unlikely even just six weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: But we're starting to see corporate America very quietly, very

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Speaker 1: slowly projects some independence. And it's not because CEOs suddenly

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Speaker 1: discover their inner activist. Because the cost of compliance became

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Speaker 1: too high. Anthropic recently refused the Pentagon demands to remove

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Speaker 1: safety guardrails from its AI systems for military use. They

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Speaker 1: pushed back. Netflix walked away rather than to abide by

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Speaker 1: the forced firings from their board, essentially allowing the president

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Speaker 1: to manage their private company. The irony is that both

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Speaker 1: Aranthropic and Netflix walking away from the government instead of

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Speaker 1: being coerced by the government was actually good business. If

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Speaker 1: you go look at Claude usage rates over the last week,

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Speaker 1: their way up CHATCHIPD usage weights are either flattered down

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Speaker 1: and now since small business is one, now the major

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Speaker 1: retailers are speaking of Costco, FedEx, Hasbro. Now they're suing

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Speaker 1: the administration for their terar free funds. They didn't have

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Speaker 1: the guts to jump on and sue from the beginning,

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Speaker 1: but now that they are owed money, now they want

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Speaker 1: their money. These aren't ideological revolts, their strategy calculations. It's

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Speaker 1: the whiff of weakness that's what these corporations now smell.

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Speaker 1: Businesses push back when the risks of going along outweigh

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Speaker 1: the risks of resisting, and suddenly the calculation is shifting. Historically,

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Speaker 1: corporations do not challenge presidents they believe are firmly in

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Speaker 1: control or can really give them, create problems for them

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Speaker 1: first year of Trump's presidency. In this second second presidency,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty much how corporations treated them. Corporations will push

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Speaker 1: back when they sense drift, instability, or overreach. It's another

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Speaker 1: signal that the aura of inevitability around Trump's political power

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Speaker 1: zebiotics dot com slash Chuck podcast and use the code

428
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: Chuck podcast at checkout for the fifteen percent discount. Again,

429
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: use the code Chuck podcast and That brings us to

430
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: the political matter that also radically has changed over the

431
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: last few weeks, because the quick sand effect isn't just

432
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: showing up in these policy fights, it's showing up in

433
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: the coalition itself. Look, the coalition is not going to

434
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 1: collapse overnight. For Tis, his base is not going to

435
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 1: go anywhere. He's got a high floor, and those running

436
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: against mega Republicans got to understand that it's a high

437
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 1: floor right now. Still, the coalitions, while they don't collapse overnight,

438
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: they begin to fray. And this one's fraying. And you

439
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: know when it's fraying because the politicians in tougher terrain

440
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: begin hedging. First, I think it's a very big deal

441
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: that a Republican member of Congress in California thought, you

442
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: know what, the best path the reelection is for me,

443
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: drop the r That's what California Congressman Kevin Kylie has

444
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 1: decided to do. He really recently announced that he's leaving

445
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 1: the Republican Party and he's going to run for reelection,

446
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: but he's going to do so as an independent officially

447
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: no party preference. Now, obviously there's a practical reason for

448
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: that decision. California's redistricting blew up his old district, left

449
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: him choosing between a safe Republican seat already held by

450
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: another Republican so the possibility of a member member primary.

451
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: Chose not to do that, or a competitive seat that

452
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: leans democratic. It's not dark blue, but it's light blue.

453
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: This new seat for Kylie, and he chose the harder seat,

454
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: and he chose to run without the Republican labe. So

455
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: why do you do that? Well, because in the district

456
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: he now needs to win, the label is a liability.

457
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 1: Kylie has already been distancing himself with Trump on tariffs

458
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 1: and criticizing the hyperpartisan culture in Washington, and yes, he

459
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 1: did so out of self interest. He was one of

460
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: the only Republicans to criticize Trump and Texas for what

461
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: they were doing with redistricting, knowing that it was going

462
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: to impact him directly and impact his political career. So

463
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: certainly it's self interest. But he also you know, this

464
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: is a guy, by the way, that voted against Trump

465
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: on tariffs. So if he wants to be who he

466
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: really wants to be, he's got a declare political independence

467
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: because you're not allowed to stray too far from the

468
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: party line on the right, and increasingly there's a belief

469
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: you can't straight too far from the party line on

470
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: the left. Democrats used to be a bit more open.

471
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: It's funny how this works. Used to be the first

472
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: you know, when whatever parties out of power usually is

473
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: a bit more open to letting people use their party

474
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,479
Speaker 1: label and define it in any way they want. But

475
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: then the more success you have, the more purity you want.

476
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: In these polarized times, right, we're seeing an increasingly an

477
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: increasing number of progressives who want to essentially emulate Trump.

478
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: If Trump can run rough shot over constitutional norms to

479
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: get his agenda in, then why can't a progressive president

480
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: do the same thing. Still, this Kylie decision is a

481
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: big deal. Democrats will argue that he's just rebranding just

482
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: to try to win a seat, that it's cosmetic. They'll

483
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: point out that he voted with Trump most of the time,

484
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: but it actually reinforces the larger point. He would not

485
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: be shedding the party label if he thought the label

486
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: still helped him win. That's how That's how you're seeing

487
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: a coalition fray in real time. Yes, it's it's California,

488
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: I understand that, But this is a guy who's been

489
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,719
Speaker 1: a Republican a long time, and not like some liberal

490
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: Republican either. Just to frankly, what pre Trump would have

491
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: been considered a conventional conservative Republican. Then let's look at Montana.

492
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: Steve Dames retirement. Someone didn't want to spend another six

493
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: years defending these policies. He's stunned to the state by

494
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: withdrawing his reelection bid just minutes before the filing deadline.

495
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: And then he did some shenanigans, right. He cleared the

496
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: way for an anointed person, no real competitive primary, and

497
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: I think it's possible Republicans pay a price for this.

498
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: So the US Attorney Curt Holmy is jumping in the race.

499
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: He's immediately got the endorsement of Danes and Trump. So

500
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: it's this sort of quick handover without Republican primary voters

501
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: in Montana getting a say, uh, it's you know, this

502
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: is what feeds deep cynicism about party politics these days.

503
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: But the maneuvers open the door for a serious independent

504
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: bid from Seth Bodner. Ironically, the day that Danes pulled

505
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: his withdrawal trick is the day Bodner announced his independent candidacies.

506
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: The former president of University of Montana. He's a Rhodes scholar,

507
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: he's a former Green Beret. Couldn't have asked for a

508
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: better news development to reinforce the independent idea of an

509
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: independent candidacy. Bodner explicitly is running on the argument that

510
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: both parties have become too insulated from voters. And what

511
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: does Steve Danges do. Let me show you how insulated

512
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: we are over here. Watch us do this little backdoor

513
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: trick and not give voters a se I mean it was.

514
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: It literally could not have been better. It could not

515
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: have been scripted better by the Bodner campaign themselves. Now, look,

516
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: Montana is still a Republican leaning state, but the very

517
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: existence of a strong independent lane is telling because this

518
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: anti establishment energy I think is real in this cycle,

519
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: and it's not neatly contained within one party, right, It

520
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: is the Democrats that that, you know, Bodner. John Tester

521
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: has already endorsed the Independent over any of the Democrats

522
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 1: running because he believes the Democratic brand is just not

523
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: an electable brand in the state of Montana, just like

524
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: Kevin Kylie does not believe the Republican brand is electable

525
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: in the state of California. You put those two things

526
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: together and you see a broader pattern. Here in California,

527
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: Republican decides he has to distance himself from the party.

528
00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: Lade on Montana, it's a it's a perhaps a I'm

529
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: not sure if he's Democratic leaning or just not comfortable

530
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: with where the Republican Party was headed in Bodner, But

531
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: either way, it's an Oh, it's an opening for an

532
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: outsider campaign attacking the entire system. So the coalition that

533
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: once rallied around Trump is now loosening at the edges.

534
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: Remember Trump was the outsider at one point. Trump was

535
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: the essentially the independent, and he is not considered an outsider.

536
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: He is considered part of the problem, part of the establishment.

537
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: And that's that's what happens to second term presidencies. And

538
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: once they lose that aura of political usefulness, discipline becomes

539
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: harder to maintain. This is only going to accelerate. Good

540
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: gets better, bad gets worse. Members are going to start

541
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 1: asking now how to stay close to the president, but

542
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: how to protect themselves from the fallout that appears to

543
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: be inevitable. And one more thing that often happens when

544
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: presidencies enter this political quicksand that Donald Trump has found

545
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: himself in. They start chasing side battles, looking for anything

546
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: to improve, to either distract from the crankiness of the electorate,

547
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: to do something. You know, college sports, we try that.

548
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 1: By the way, good grief, the optics of that. The

549
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: Secretary of State. Look, Marco Rubio has the same amount

550
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: of interest and influence in college football as I have.

551
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: He is the father of a college athlete, so sure

552
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: I would be curious of what he thinks of the system.

553
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: But the fact that he spent two hours of his

554
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 1: day on Friday when there are strand I mean, I'm

555
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: curious what a stranded American in the Middle East thinks

556
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: of the head of the State Department, who did not

557
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: plan at all, apparently to evacuate Americans anywhere, did have

558
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 1: time to pontificate about college sports. But the point is,

559
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna, like I said, I have a lot

560
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: more about the college sports. But boy, was that just

561
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:24,399
Speaker 1: terrible optics. Timing couldn't have looked worse. And I mean,

562
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: this was an unseious event and I'm going to get

563
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: to it later of how un serious it was. But

564
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: these little side side shows that Trump is going to

565
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: continue to try to do for distraction, right, so it's

566
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: college sports. Maybe they're executive order fantasies. You know, he

567
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: may start pontificating again about emergency powers over elections like

568
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: this crazy truth. I'm not signing any bill until they

569
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: passed the Save Act, which includes you know, demands for

570
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 1: birth certificates before you can vote. I mean, really cuckoo stuff.

571
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: But what it really is, it's what is really showing

572
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: you is that he's losing control, and he knows it,

573
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: and he's desperate to try to project some sort of

574
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 1: strength or some sort of control. He's obviously trying to

575
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: do this because he knows when core problems are getting

576
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 1: harder to solve, the temptation is to dominate the headlines

577
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 1: with just anything else. And Donald Trump he thinks spectacle

578
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: is a strategy. But trust me, spectacle is no strategy.

579
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: So this is what presidential quicksay looks like. A war

580
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: expanding while the President calls it limited, an economy sending

581
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: warning signals while the White House insists everything is fine,

582
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 1: remain calm all as well, a terriff regime that collapsed

583
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 1: in court. Corporate America now feeling comfortable resisting without fear

584
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: of punishment. Politicians and the president's own coalition quietly repositioning

585
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: either just leaving they're done, they can't do it, or

586
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: they leave the party and run as an independent. None

587
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: of this means the whole thing collapses tomorrow, quick saying

588
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: is slower than that. It's cumulative, but the pattern is

589
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: very recognizable. This is starting to look a lot like

590
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: two thousand and six. There's a few things that are

591
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: different I'll get to in a minute, but it's unchecked.

592
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: Trump more insulated than he was in his first term,

593
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 1: more convinced of his instincts, less constrained by advisors. He's

594
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: not mastering events. Events have overtaken him. He just hasn't

595
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 1: accepted that reality yet because he's just reacting again. And

596
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: when a president starts reacting more than governing, that's usually

597
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: when the ground beneath beneath them will give way completely.

598
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: And let me put a let me button it up

599
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: with this. When you look at the Biden presidency in

600
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: the one term, and I'd spent a lot of time

601
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: during that time, and even saying in how Afghanistan was

602
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: was sort of a moment that he seemed to lose

603
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 1: the presidency, and he never got the plot back right,

604
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 1: because if you look at the Joe Biden approval rating,

605
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: right once it hit, once Afghanistan happened, and there was

606
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: a reason why the voters never he never recovered from

607
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: that moment. And I'm gonna and and I'll explain where

608
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: why this is this is relevant to Trump in a second.

609
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,720
Speaker 1: He didn't, you know, the vote average voter knew Biden

610
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 1: was very you know, foreign policy was his best subject.

611
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 1: This was a core competency that the public thought he had.

612
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 1: You know, there was less there was less uh confidence

613
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: in his ability to uh deal with the economy, less

614
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: confidence and his ability to sort of galvanize the public

615
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: around a big idea. But on foreign affairs there was

616
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: a core competency and a core expertise perceived expertise with him.

617
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: So when that was a total calamity and all the

618
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: chaos that went with the Afghanistan withdrawal, his approval rating

619
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: drop a low forty five, never recovered again. With Donald Trump,

620
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: the core competency that voters attributed it to him is

621
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: managing the economy. I know some of you think he

622
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: never had, you know, you don't know, but the majority

623
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 1: of voters remember it's a choice, and they they looked

624
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 1: at Kamala and they looked at Trump and they decided, well,

625
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,439
Speaker 1: Trump's first term, that the economy the first three years

626
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: was pretty good. Yes, he likely The only reason was

627
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: any good is he inherited a healing economy from Obama,

628
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: juiced it with tax cuts, and by the time it

629
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: was going to probably start slowing down in twenty twenty,

630
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 1: COVID happened. And then COVID masked whatever weaknesses that might

631
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 1: have been opening up in his management of the economy. Then, rightfully,

632
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 1: I think the public said, well, that's nobody's fault. Right,

633
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: COVID was going to create an economic challenge no matter

634
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 1: who was president, But those swing voters came in and

635
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: assumed he had a core competency. So there were sort

636
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: of two basic promises with Donald Trump that you thought

637
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 1: were You knew you were going to get a lot

638
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: of bullshit, right, that's just who he is. And there

639
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 1: was sort of for the second presidential term, there were

640
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 1: these groups of voters that were willing to accept it

641
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: if two things, If he kept two promises, improve the

642
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: economy and don't get us into any new wars. This

643
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: is why, this is why this is only going to

644
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: get worse if this turns around. There's something that happens

645
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: and none of us can foresee at the moment, but

646
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: this is setting up to be a catastrophic political problem

647
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: for the Republicans right now. You see it. It's a

648
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: crack here, it's a crack there. But sometimes right it's

649
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: like you see a couple of cracks, a couple of

650
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: cracks in it everything shatters. So whether you want to

651
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 1: use my quicksand metaphor or my shattering glass metaphor, either

652
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: one applies to where this presidency is headed. All right,

653
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: let's sneak in a break. And I didn't even get

654
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: to the Christine Nome craziness. In some ways, that's all

655
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 1: part of it. We do it is there was always

656
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 1: a point in you know, sheet in Trump's Washington, when

657
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 1: you have everybody mad at you. Right this happened. I

658
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: was a part of one of these when nobody came

659
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 1: to run Aroundney's defense. When I was critical of what

660
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: NBC was doing, No Republican came to her defense, right,

661
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 1: Christine nom you know there's this point when you when

662
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: you've lost everybody, you kind of know it. And Christy

663
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: Nome lost everybody left, right, center, maga, non, maga, you

664
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: name it, so it became easy to do. We'll see

665
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: how Mark white Mullin does. You know he's an interesting cat.

666
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: I know he's very much He follows his electorate when

667
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: it comes to Trump. But he's also somebody that, if

668
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: you talk to many senators want He's somebody that likes

669
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: to be He likes to be in the middle of negotiations.

670
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 1: He wants to be a compromiser. He doesn't want to

671
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 1: be seen as an obstacle to get shipped done. Is

672
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: he going to showcase that part of him? And we're

673
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: going to find out real quick. We'll see what how

674
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: good his relationships are because of his relationships in the

675
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: Senate are as good as some people claim they are,

676
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 1: And it's conformation should coincide with the reopening of the

677
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,240
Speaker 1: entire DHS. But to me, this is the real test.

678
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: If to me, I wouldn't confirm him if he can't

679
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 1: get the deal, I think that's fair trade. Now, maybe

680
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: Trump doesn't want to let them let him get the deal,

681
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: but to me that should be you don't get your

682
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,439
Speaker 1: confirmation vote until you cut the deal, until you find

683
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: a deal to reopen dhs. Anyway, all right, let's stick

684
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 1: in the break and when we come back, my fabulous

685
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: conversation with the one and only Ken Burns. Do you

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714
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717
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718
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Speaker 1: I was able to go to college. Little did he

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739
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741
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: is one of those you know. I am a I

742
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 1: hate this cliche, but sometimes some people actually live the cliche.

743
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,800
Speaker 1: This person needs no introduction. It's Ken Burns, and he

744
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 1: is as I was joking with him before. In my

745
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,280
Speaker 1: own team, I may season pass subscriber to Ken Burns,

746
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: and yet there are still Ken Burns documentaries. I have

747
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:09,800
Speaker 1: not fully consumed my biggest regrets so far as Jazz

748
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: I have not fully consumed Jazz. I will make that confession.

749
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: But you know, it's one of those cases where every

750
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 1: time you think there isn't a new story to tell,

751
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,720
Speaker 1: there's a new story to tell, and Ken Burd defuys

752
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 1: that story to tell. Ken, It's good to see you.

753
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 3: It's good to see you too, check thank you. You know,

754
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 3: I think if I were given a thousand years to live,

755
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 3: which I will not, I wouldn't run out of topics

756
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 3: in American history. And there's something just incredibly wonderful about

757
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 3: saying that, particularly in tough times where we're sometimes avoid

758
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 3: the tough times. But history's so instructive. You know, we're

759
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 3: way more divided during our Revolution, way more divided obviously

760
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 3: during our Civil War, way more divided during depression, way

761
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 3: more divided during the Vietnam years. I mean, we tend

762
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 3: to think as kind of narcissist dick Chicken littles that

763
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,439
Speaker 3: our time is the worst. It's got to be bad,

764
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 3: and there's history is there to say, you know what.

765
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 3: I had a friend in the financial services you'll appreciate

766
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 3: this who came to me in the after the eight meltdown,

767
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 3: and he said, this is a depression. And I just

768
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 3: I said, you know, in the depression, in many American

769
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 3: cities the animals in the zoo were shot and the

770
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:20,720
Speaker 3: meat distributed to the poor.

771
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,280
Speaker 1: When that happens, that's a depression.

772
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a depression. And so like right now, we're not.

773
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 3: I don't want to minimize whatever pain he was personally

774
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 3: going through or professional going through. But I do think

775
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 3: having perspective is a really important thing in history. Is

776
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 3: the best teacher there is for giving you a kind

777
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 3: of perspective.

778
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 1: No, And obviously we're having an argument on history sometimes

779
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: right we're having I and I actually this I want

780
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: to begin here. I think the most remarkable accomplishment you

781
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: made with American Revolution was how limited the critiques were,

782
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: what I would call the partisan critiques. You know, I

783
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 1: know you felt I'm sure you saw them now I'm.

784
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 3: Sure you're right. You're right, You're right. I mean, my

785
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 3: feeling is and I do this with every film. You know,

786
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 3: Mark Twain once said, I, if you tell the truth,

787
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 3: you don't have to remember anything. So I said the

788
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 3: same thing in the year of promotion of this thing

789
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,919
Speaker 3: last year, to Joe Rogan and theo vanas I said

790
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 3: to the New York Times editorial board, as I said

791
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 3: to inner city school kids in Charleston and Detroit, and

792
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 3: suburban kids in Chicago and the forty cities we went

793
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 3: to in the eighty different screenings and the six million podcasts,

794
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 3: I felt like I did, and all the other interviews,

795
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 3: and because I was trying to reach everybody, this is

796
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 3: a story for everybody. And problem is that right now

797
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,760
Speaker 3: we've gotten to a place where we want to limit everything.

798
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 3: It's you have to pass a litmus test, you have

799
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 3: to sign a loyalty oath and nda to your real feelings.

800
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,240
Speaker 3: And I want to speak to everyone. So I assumed,

801
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 3: if I could just get to October before the mid

802
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 3: November broadcast, I'd be okay. Well, October came and went,

803
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 3: and then November broadcast came, and in the middle of it,

804
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 3: there were a couple half hearted this is woke sort

805
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 3: of superficial dismissals. It was really clear that the people,

806
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 3: the authors of two or three of these things had

807
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 3: watched maybe twenty minutes of the thing. And this is

808
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 3: the film in the way that suggests that the American

809
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 3: Revolution is the most important event in world history in

810
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 3: the last two thousand years, and that, oh, by the way,

811
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 3: a guy I'm sure you've never heard of named George

812
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 3: Washington is the person most responsible for our success in

813
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,919
Speaker 3: the creation of our country. And somehow because there were

814
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 3: women in it, and somehow because they were oh my god,

815
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 3: black people in it, and somehow because they were Native Americans,

816
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 3: and there were other people from other countries who were

817
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 3: engaged in this world war in addition to our revolution

818
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:47,839
Speaker 3: and a bloody civil war, that somehow this is woke.

819
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 3: And then you realize where is the wokeness? Actually is

820
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 3: it in the litmus tests of one side of what

821
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 3: it should be. And that's what it is. Wokeness is

822
00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 3: just as test that is fearful of the truth, and

823
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 3: it occurs in both ends of the spectrum. And and

824
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,479
Speaker 3: in fact, I don't think their ends. I think there

825
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 3: you know, we discussed this before. You know, a third

826
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 3: of Bernie's supporters stay home, a third voted for Hillary,

827
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 3: and a third voted for Trump. So you've got a

828
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 3: circle here in which the far left and the far

829
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 3: why right are often much closer than we would think.

830
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 1: No, I mean, that's why you know, we're all taught

831
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 1: the pendulum right when it comes to that, is that

832
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: at some point the two ends could meet. And you know,

833
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: in fact, I like to warn some of my friends

834
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 1: in the business community, watch out if there is a

835
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 1: if if the populace on the right drop their cultural

836
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 1: a grievance and you just have all of the economic

837
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: grievance parts of the electorate unite, we would call it

838
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: the FDR coalition, and it could it could end up

839
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: not be pretty transformational. I don't want to say that.

840
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,959
Speaker 3: I agree. You know, for a couple of different times,

841
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 3: in a cup roll of different positions, standing in very

842
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 3: different political ideological places, the Republican Party has been the

843
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 3: most successful political party on Earth, and a lot of

844
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 3: ways in the last fifty years, is getting.

845
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 1: The most successful third party.

846
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, exactly started it, by the way, in a

847
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 3: schoolhouse in rip On, Wisconsin in eighteen fifty four with

848
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,359
Speaker 3: one platform out of the Demond.

849
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 1: Dispute, there's still a dispute between a place in Illinois

850
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:28,760
Speaker 1: a place in Wisconsin.

851
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I hear that all the time. I'm

852
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 3: opting for RIP. But the whole idea is that they're

853
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,959
Speaker 3: anti slavery, you know. And so then you come full

854
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 3: circle where you know it's successful in that it's gotten

855
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 3: so many people to vote against their economic self interest

856
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 3: because they've been able to interpose enemies. The great bugaboo

857
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:50,839
Speaker 3: of political distraction and ledger domain and sleight of hand

858
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 3: is to say it's oh, it's them, and to create them.

859
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 3: And I can tell you right now, I mean, my

860
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 3: bottom line is I've been making films about the US,

861
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 3: but I've been also making films about us, right the

862
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,479
Speaker 3: lower case two lighter thing. And there's only us, there's

863
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 3: no them. And whenever anyone tells you there's a them,

864
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 3: you're having the wool pulled over your eyes. You're having

865
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 3: a distraction take place in order for you to think

866
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 3: it's actually an economic interest that is of central value

867
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 3: to me is not as important as the thing that

868
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:24,799
Speaker 3: those people might be doing to me.

869
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: What's always helpful about your documentaries is that I do

870
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 1: think they have a point of view, but it's not

871
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: this left right.

872
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:34,479
Speaker 3: Point no, no, no, no.

873
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: It is it is more of a larger, you know,

874
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 1: sense of you know. Just so, how would you describe,

875
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 1: for instance, your point of view for the American Revolution?

876
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,359
Speaker 1: You clearly at a framework that you want to do

877
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: check the story with.

878
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 3: Not really, because what happens is when any whenever you

879
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 3: say yes and your heart and your gut, whatever you do, choose,

880
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:58,439
Speaker 3: you don't know anything about it. I mean, I got

881
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 3: the general edit, I got a good educ I know

882
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 3: a lot about history. And yet when you say I'm

883
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 3: going to do country music or I'm going to do

884
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 3: baseball something I grew up playing, Oh well, finally a

885
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 3: subject I know about. Each day of baseball was a

886
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 3: humiliation of what I didn't know. And so revolution you

887
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:18,240
Speaker 3: just automatically, so you're not looking. You've got a chronological structure,

888
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 3: it's already there, that is to say, and then and

889
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:23,399
Speaker 3: then and then, so then how you begin to put

890
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:28,320
Speaker 3: it together. You're absolutely right that there's no political thing.

891
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,399
Speaker 3: You just want to say what happened, and you want

892
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 3: to call balls and strikes. And I would suggest that

893
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 3: in our media culture, as diverse and as multitudinous as

894
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 3: it is a kind of tsunami of information, it's relatively

895
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 3: the same. And so we've become a kind of highlight reel.

896
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 3: Baybruth only hits home runs. Well, Baybruth struck out way

897
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 3: more times than he hit home run. And more importantly,

898
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 3: Babbruth only comes up once every nine times at bad.

899
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 3: So sometime, as the last World Series showed you, a

900
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 3: second basement, a middle infielder, not the star, becomes central

901
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 3: to the outcome of a very dramatic thing. And so

902
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:08,959
Speaker 3: what we've tried to do is always keep that in mind.

903
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,360
Speaker 3: Do you scrimp on your biography of Babe Ruth, No,

904
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 3: you tell a complete one. In this case, the Babe

905
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:16,879
Speaker 3: Ruth is George Washington. We don't have a country without him.

906
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 3: But then you also introduce people to scores of other

907
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,760
Speaker 3: characters that are bottom up, probably for the most part,

908
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,399
Speaker 3: but they also are central to what happened. They're the

909
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 3: calling of balls and strikes. And I think there's something

910
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 3: exhilarating in that complexity and this notion that, certainly among

911
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:39,359
Speaker 3: authoritarians that you want to reduce it to some simplistic

912
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 3: slogans is ridiculous, ridiculous, How.

913
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 1: Do you deal with you know, one of my one

914
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 1: of the things that obviously the more you read up

915
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 1: on an historical event. I'm obsessed right now with the

916
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 1: period between eighteen sixty five and nineteen twenty eight.

917
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 3: We're making a film on it called Emancipation to Excess,

918
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:00,439
Speaker 3: about reconstruction.

919
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: And period, and you know it's it's you know, Garfield's

920
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 1: the you know, I view Garfield as of all of

921
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: our assassinated presidents. You know what the modern myth making

922
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: around Kennedy was, actually that could have been Garfield, and

923
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,439
Speaker 1: Garfield absolutely, you know, Garfield could have signed the Civil

924
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: Rights Act.

925
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 3: Has a great book on this.

926
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 1: Right, and there's a couple of them that I've read now.

927
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 1: But in order to understand eighteen eighty, you got to

928
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: understand eighteen seventy six. And this is my long winding

929
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 1: road to get to the eighteen seventy six. A lot

930
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 1: of people have written the book about the eighteen seventy

931
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 1: six election. There's all sorts of scholarship on it. And

932
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 1: what I've noticed is that the author's politics matter a

933
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 1: lot when you read, when you consume these books and

934
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 1: it's become to the point where I am get frustrated

935
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 1: sometimes by history books when you realize, no, the author

936
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: has their own point of view and they start with

937
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 1: it and then and then it's sort of I don't

938
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 1: want to say it poisons it, because if you know

939
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:07,840
Speaker 1: it in advance, you know it.

940
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:11,880
Speaker 3: Does poison it, Chuck, because you're smart and discerning and

941
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 3: have read enough. But for the people who are picking

942
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 3: it up, they then become what.

943
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 1: If it's the only thing they read about it, only

944
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: that's what I always worried about it, Then that that's

945
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: what I worry about too, And that's why I can't

946
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 1: do that.

947
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 3: I can't ignore that George Washington owned hundreds of human beings.

948
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 3: You can't, as the writer Rick Atkinson said, and you

949
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 3: know he's now two thirds the way through his marvelous trilogy.

950
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 3: You can't square that circle that he makes, you know,

951
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 3: tactical mistakes that he's rash on the battlefield. But all

952
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 3: the other things add up to something. And you don't

953
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 3: need to throw the baby out with the unforgiving revisionist bathwater,

954
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 3: nor do you have to subscribe to the Parson weems Treakily,

955
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 3: you know, never tell a lie, chop down a Jerry dreamy,

956
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:56,479
Speaker 3: throw a coin across the doll. You can you can

957
00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 3: unsubscribe from both of these tyrannies and come to a

958
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 3: much more complex thing. And that's where you bother people

959
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 3: because they want things to fit in. They just want

960
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 3: it to be white, or they wanted to be male,

961
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 3: or they wanted to be simple, or they wanted to

962
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 3: be still entrusted with the barnacles. But we don't even

963
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 3: have to look at the big ideas that we're supposed

964
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 3: to be protecting, because if you look at those big ideas,

965
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 3: you begin to understand even further the complexity and the beauty.

966
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:25,840
Speaker 3: You have to go into fiction. You have to go

967
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 3: into William Shakespeare to see all that.

968
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: So what I'm curious about is when you're dealing with

969
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: source material, maybe it is Abigail Adams letters, right, maybe

970
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 1: it's Ben Franklin letters, and you really have to understand

971
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 1: the language of that day to get certain nuances. You've

972
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 1: got to understand that a turn of phrase that may

973
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 1: be meaningless to somebody reading it two hundred years later

974
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 1: actually was incredibly important. And I often find that sort

975
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 1: of what I would call the amateur historian and I

976
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 1: would put myself in that where I could misinterpret reading

977
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 1: something because I'm reading it through the prism of today's

978
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 1: America English language, and I just think about those issues. So,

979
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 1: you know, when did you realize as you went through

980
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: this over decades that you've done this. I assume over

981
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 1: time you've now you're now almost an expert at seeing this.

982
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 1: But when you first ran into this challenge, you know,

983
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 1: what were the what are the different ways to deal

984
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 1: with it?

985
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 3: Yeah? You know what? It manifested. I think I'm quite

986
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 3: lucky it manifested less as a challenge. It is always

987
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:34,720
Speaker 3: a challenge than an exhilaration. The idea that that information

988
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 3: could be delivered in a way that I wouldn't or

989
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 3: you wouldn't speak it suddenly becomes I mean, Lincoln didn't

990
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 3: go around saying forescore in seven years ago. He was

991
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 3: just trying to ask you to think about eighty seven

992
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 3: years in a different way, that's all. And it was

993
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 3: a great rhetorical device, like for score and seven. So

994
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 3: you have to do the math yourself. He's got you

995
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 3: as you're doing the math in some attention, you're paying attention.

996
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 3: You've been sucked in, and you begin to understand. And

997
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:06,440
Speaker 3: so what you find in all of these parsing the

998
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 3: last sentence of the first inaugural taking the Declaration of Independence,

999
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 3: A few phrases past the pursuit of happiness, we can

1000
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 3: get to that which is really loaded and wonderful, particularly

1001
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 3: for today. He says, all experience has shown that mankind

1002
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 3: are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable. Maybe

1003
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 3: you've read it at the picnic before on the fourth

1004
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 3: of July, and just let it go over think about

1005
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:32,520
Speaker 3: what he's saying. He says, all experience has shown that

1006
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 3: mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable.

1007
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 3: Not hard to parse means Heretofore everybody, he has been

1008
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 3: under an authoritarian's boot and have been willing to suffer

1009
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:46,520
Speaker 3: for that for a thousand years working someone else's land,

1010
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 3: you know, for a thousand years being a slave without

1011
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 3: even earning a farthing. Right. But this is going to

1012
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 3: be a new era. This is going to be a

1013
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:58,760
Speaker 3: place where we're going to replace your subject hood with

1014
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 3: something much more responsible, cold citizenship. So let's go back

1015
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 3: to pursuit of happiness. So we've always assumed this is

1016
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 3: the American license for freedom. He didn't follow John Locke

1017
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 3: and said life, liberty, and property. He said pursuit of happiness.

1018
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 3: And so happiness was not the acquisition of things in

1019
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 3: a marketplace of objects, but lifelong learning in a marketplace

1020
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 3: of ideas. If you did that, you would become more virtuous.

1021
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 3: That was the free electron word throughout every episode of

1022
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 3: the Revolution. As we began to gather stuff, John Adams

1023
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:33,480
Speaker 3: is worrying about virtue. Abigail's worrying about that. George Washington, everybody,

1024
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 3: even the folks at the so called bottom, are thinking

1025
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 3: about it. And so virtue becomes a thing reaching back

1026
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:44,000
Speaker 3: across the Middle Ages, the Dark Ages, back to antiquity,

1027
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 3: the virtue that was going to make you able to

1028
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:52,240
Speaker 3: assume the mantle of this. And Adams at one point,

1029
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 3: the great worrier says, you know, there's too much avarice

1030
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 3: and ambition, too much lust for profit, not enough virtue

1031
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 3: that I wonder whether we have the to create a republic.

1032
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:05,160
Speaker 3: So what happens is by isolating these words, by getting

1033
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 3: great actors. I have the best cast I think for

1034
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 3: any ever made, bringing them to life in a way

1035
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 3: that you say, oh, I now know what that means

1036
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 3: I get it, and you begin to see that those

1037
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:20,520
Speaker 3: differences which have held these people. They're wearing hoes and

1038
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:24,520
Speaker 3: breeches and they've got powdered wigs. They're not me. There's

1039
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:27,440
Speaker 3: no photograph of anybody, so they can't be like me.

1040
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 3: And they are exactly like us, and they are. One

1041
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 3: of the more moving things, Chuck to me, is that

1042
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 3: they're speaking to us like all the time Washington and

1043
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 3: Jefferson Adams two says about the millions yet unborn. They

1044
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 3: are taking an idea that's never been tried. The chances

1045
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 3: of success that, like Sington Green, are zero, and yet

1046
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 3: they're thinking about you and me. And so the extraordinary

1047
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 3: story of our founding is the fact that, as the

1048
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 3: Old Testament says, there's nothing new under the sun, guess what,

1049
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 3: on July fourth, seventeen seventy six, there was something new

1050
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 3: under the sun. Now does that mean that there's not

1051
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 3: the same quantities of virtue and venality and generosity and greed. Nope,

1052
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:11,200
Speaker 3: that's the same thing. And you can find him in

1053
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 3: our story then and it will echo or, as Mark

1054
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 3: Twain said, rhyme with the present moment. But you have

1055
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:21,280
Speaker 3: to be disciplined as a storyteller, not to date your

1056
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 3: film by pointing arrows at isn't this so much like today?

1057
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 3: I began this film when Barack Obama had thirteen months

1058
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,240
Speaker 3: to go in his presidency, right, lots of water under

1059
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 3: the brid No one was talking to fifty no one

1060
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:35,840
Speaker 3: was celebrating. Now people are saying, oh, you're so smart,

1061
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 3: you figured this out. You came out exactly the right time.

1062
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 3: I went the total total luck of the draw.

1063
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 1: History is always the right time.

1064
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 3: History is always the right time. There is no clearer

1065
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 3: statement than that. And then when you do that. And

1066
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 3: Mark Twain is right if he said he says history

1067
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 3: doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes, you are aware. I mean,

1068
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 3: I'll tell you there's a if our film is just

1069
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:01,360
Speaker 3: like by chance, come out a year earlier than it

1070
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 3: did in the Fall of twenty four. You knew what

1071
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 3: was going on in the Fall of twenty four. What

1072
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,840
Speaker 3: we follow among dozens of characters one hundred and fifty

1073
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 3: different characters in the film, the wife of a German

1074
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 3: general who's heading to join Burgoyne's army and her husband

1075
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:19,360
Speaker 3: for their triumphant victory at Saratoga doesn't happen the French

1076
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,760
Speaker 3: come in blah blah blah. I'll give away the punchline. However,

1077
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 3: she's doing the perilous Atlantic crossing a little bit nervous

1078
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 3: because she hears that Americans eat cats. Now, nobody said

1079
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 3: anything this fall, but if it had come out, they'd

1080
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:37,160
Speaker 3: go burns. You know what he's trying to do, you know?

1081
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 3: I mean there was a letter that didn't make it

1082
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 3: into the film. But Jefferson's trapped during the Constitutional Convention

1083
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 3: in Paris, and he writes a Madison, who's writing the code.

1084
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 3: The Constitution is not pros except for the preamble written

1085
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:53,320
Speaker 3: by Gouvenor Morris in New York. But he says, what

1086
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 3: if someone should lose an election and pretend false votes

1087
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:02,200
Speaker 3: and reap the whirlwind? Right? I mean they were trying

1088
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:04,920
Speaker 3: to reverse engineer for all the things. So the founders

1089
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:05,440
Speaker 3: are no.

1090
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:08,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I look, the Constitution is such a brilliant document.

1091
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 3: Oh my god, four pieces they are still.

1092
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 1: It, and it anticipated all of these issues we're dealing

1093
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 1: with today. The thing that the Constitution that those that

1094
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 1: wrote this Constitution didn't anticipate was that they were going

1095
01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 1: to be these five hundred and thirty five individuals who

1096
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 1: didn't bother to read Article one.

1097
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 3: That's exactly what I was just going to say. Uve

1098
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 3: El eleven, the conservative scholar told me the Scott the

1099
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 3: Founders would not be surprised that someone who was seeking

1100
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 3: monarchical powers. Is that Article one the first article that

1101
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 3: the Article two is the executive that's the manager of

1102
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 3: what Article one did, and the third article is the

1103
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:48,480
Speaker 3: judicial that is going to judge this and pass on

1104
01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:51,200
Speaker 3: it is that they had abdicated their power. That would

1105
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:55,400
Speaker 3: be the great overwhelming disappointment on the part of the founders.

1106
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:58,600
Speaker 3: If they look, they'd be happy that we'd survived, surprised

1107
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 3: and so many of the change, and not surprise that

1108
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 3: there could be, you know, power grabs.

1109
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I keep going backwards about like

1110
01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 1: when did Congress start to abdicate? And you know, you

1111
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 1: can keep going back. I've taken it all the way

1112
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:16,320
Speaker 1: back to nineteen twenty and the decision no longer to

1113
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 1: expand the size of the House of Representatives. That moment

1114
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 1: in that decade when they chose to stop expanding the House,

1115
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:30,840
Speaker 1: they actually stopped, they stopped implementing the Founder's.

1116
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 3: Vision, and you had a complex modern world, the twentieth

1117
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 3: century that is going to be within ten or fifteen years,

1118
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 3: working at a kind of lightning speed. That always makes

1119
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 3: the argument of authoritarians that I need to decide this

1120
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:48,960
Speaker 3: in advance of your cumbersome democratic process.

1121
01:06:49,040 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 1: Trust me, I would argue, we basically one hundred years

1122
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:12,720
Speaker 1: of Congress eroding away its own authority, and they did

1123
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:15,120
Speaker 1: it to themselves. They did it to themselves.

1124
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 3: But I would say it's been most noticeable in the

1125
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 3: last few years where you've o the century just all

1126
01:07:22,640 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 3: all of this, you know, undeclared war stuff all.

1127
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:27,480
Speaker 1: It goes back to nine to eleven. I mean, you know,

1128
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 1: and and fear does that right? Fear?

1129
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:34,160
Speaker 3: That's exactly right, And whether it's real or not, the

1130
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:39,280
Speaker 3: manufacturer of fear in a populace allows them to say, okay, please, Mussolini,

1131
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:41,280
Speaker 3: make the trains run on time for me, please.

1132
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:44,440
Speaker 1: All right. Let me ask a few questions, because missus

1133
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:47,440
Speaker 1: Todd wanted one, which is, does does your Ben and

1134
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:52,440
Speaker 1: Franklin doc change if this had come out first, if

1135
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:54,680
Speaker 1: American Revolution had come out before Ben Franklin.

1136
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:57,320
Speaker 3: Well, it's funny that it's a really that's a very

1137
01:07:57,320 --> 01:08:00,880
Speaker 3: smart question. First, of all, we'd already been well underway

1138
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 3: on the American Revolution before we even said yes to

1139
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:06,640
Speaker 3: Franklin and began working on it.

1140
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:09,680
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, So you were how simultaneous was this?

1141
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 3: Well, I you know, when I say this took ten years,

1142
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:16,880
Speaker 3: nine years and eleven months to do, it's true. But

1143
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:19,639
Speaker 3: I also released ten films during that time. So I've

1144
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 3: got different production teams and we're working on stuff, and

1145
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 3: it's very symbiotic. When you leave to work on Leonardo

1146
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:27,960
Speaker 3: da Vinci or Muhammad Ali, it helps you come back

1147
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 3: to the Revolution. It helps you come back. Well, what

1148
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:34,600
Speaker 3: Ben Franklin represented was an opportunity to practice on the

1149
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:39,120
Speaker 3: absence of photographs and newsreels. And we could, because it

1150
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:42,600
Speaker 3: was only two episodes, do it without doing any recreations

1151
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 3: with except for the print shot stuff. But here, as

1152
01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:48,759
Speaker 3: soon as I said it, I knew we were fully invested.

1153
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:51,600
Speaker 3: So rather than get people to have them reenact a

1154
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:55,320
Speaker 3: specific thing, not crazy about, why not make a feature film?

1155
01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:59,600
Speaker 3: We just spent seven years collecting a critical mass of

1156
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:03,439
Speaker 3: people doing reenactments in an impressionistic way, sometimes way up

1157
01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:08,120
Speaker 3: above from a drone, sometimes intimately where the musket, the

1158
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:12,280
Speaker 3: hammer hits the flint and the gunpowder explodes, or the

1159
01:09:12,320 --> 01:09:15,680
Speaker 3: cannon goes off, or you see women tending to a

1160
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:20,880
Speaker 3: burned hand or slashing blood off a tile floor, and

1161
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 3: then what you have is yet another resource. You've got paintings,

1162
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 3: you've got drawings, you have lithographs, you have print you

1163
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:31,080
Speaker 3: have maps, maps, maps, you have live cinematography devoided people

1164
01:09:31,320 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 3: of the real star of our film, the magnificent country

1165
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:38,719
Speaker 3: that we have the prize that had animated this fifth

1166
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:43,439
Speaker 3: Global War over it the land, and so then it

1167
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:46,200
Speaker 3: could work in and you'd find a volley sort of

1168
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:49,680
Speaker 3: out of focus and muzzy of red coats firing, and

1169
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:51,680
Speaker 3: all of a sudden you're panning across a painting in

1170
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:54,439
Speaker 3: which on the left side of the painting are a

1171
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:56,960
Speaker 3: bunch of red coats firing. And then all of a sudden,

1172
01:09:57,280 --> 01:09:59,519
Speaker 3: you treat the paintings like they're live, and you treat

1173
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:01,800
Speaker 3: the live of like their paintings, and you've got a

1174
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:06,639
Speaker 3: wonderful dynamic. We didn't have that in Ben Franklin because

1175
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:08,880
Speaker 3: you could always return to a portrait of him. And

1176
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:12,160
Speaker 3: it's over two episodes. This is six with as I said,

1177
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty different characters.

1178
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:17,160
Speaker 1: It's six feature length movies. It makes you know, I

1179
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:20,280
Speaker 1: mean it is you know it was not. This is

1180
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:21,840
Speaker 1: not six episodes of six.

1181
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:25,679
Speaker 3: So I have a friend who's a noted a director

1182
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:28,360
Speaker 3: in Hollywood who wrote me after I think I'd send

1183
01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:30,680
Speaker 3: him a link, and he wrote back how much he

1184
01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:33,640
Speaker 3: had loved it, And then after Christmas he said, I

1185
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 3: looked at it again, this time to look at characters.

1186
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 3: And so you realize there's a there's a lot that

1187
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:43,960
Speaker 3: goes into it, and it rewards sometimes second, third, fourth.

1188
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:46,600
Speaker 1: You need one hundred percent, And it's sometimes easier to

1189
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:48,559
Speaker 1: watch you a second time than read the book a

1190
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:52,000
Speaker 1: second time. Yes, that sort of historical event, right like yeah, yeah, yeah,

1191
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:53,519
Speaker 1: you know that you that you.

1192
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 3: That's I could spend an hour on that paragraph and

1193
01:10:56,520 --> 01:10:59,519
Speaker 3: really get it. But in a film, I'm controlling how

1194
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:02,360
Speaker 3: long you see something, and I've got lots of things going.

1195
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 3: There's lots, and it's not we're trying to do it

1196
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 3: to be confusing. It's just that it is complicated. As

1197
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:09,680
Speaker 3: my neon sign says.

1198
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:13,840
Speaker 1: I want to throw another one at you. Prohibition. So

1199
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:20,240
Speaker 1: I now understand prohibition better after COVID than I did

1200
01:11:20,479 --> 01:11:26,680
Speaker 1: before COVID and right, you just sort of I get it,

1201
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:29,679
Speaker 1: You're like, and frankly, I look at the current anti

1202
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 1: VAXX movement and I sort of see it as sort

1203
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:37,880
Speaker 1: of familiar to how we ended up with prohibition and

1204
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 1: then how within a decade we realized, well, this is crazy.

1205
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:44,400
Speaker 3: Well it is different in some ways in that using

1206
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:50,120
Speaker 3: government as an instrumentality of social change is different from

1207
01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:56,000
Speaker 3: suspecting government and therefore not doing what the government says

1208
01:11:56,560 --> 01:12:01,040
Speaker 3: might be efficacious with regard to measles or COVID.

1209
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:03,040
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, I get that. But I guess what

1210
01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:07,000
Speaker 1: I'm saying is that sort of I looked at it,

1211
01:12:07,200 --> 01:12:11,920
Speaker 1: not in the specific, but sort of in this respect

1212
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:16,040
Speaker 1: after the pandemic in nineteen seventeen and eighteen, you know,

1213
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:18,439
Speaker 1: and what we all learn is everybody loses our minds

1214
01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:22,000
Speaker 1: a little bit, like we all go a little because

1215
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:26,519
Speaker 1: of the different and so something that seems so radical

1216
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:31,080
Speaker 1: like prohibition or you know, or you know, or calling

1217
01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:36,040
Speaker 1: it the temperance movement, right, which was had We've been

1218
01:12:36,080 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 1: there a long time, but it had never really gotten

1219
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:45,640
Speaker 1: huge traction until we had this perceived moral decay, you know,

1220
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:49,120
Speaker 1: in the whole what happened with the pandemic, and that's

1221
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:51,400
Speaker 1: where you sort of like, okay, we can sort of

1222
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:53,759
Speaker 1: you see how we can go down sort of rabbit

1223
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:58,000
Speaker 1: holes almost as a collective society when you go through

1224
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:02,439
Speaker 1: a shared trauma like a pandemic. Is right in a

1225
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:05,919
Speaker 1: fairly organized society, I think, I guess, I ask, I'm curious,

1226
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:08,240
Speaker 1: do you think you would have Do you think you

1227
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:10,400
Speaker 1: end up spending more time in the pandemic in nineteen

1228
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:14,120
Speaker 1: seventeen and eighteen if you're doing prohibition today post well.

1229
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:17,080
Speaker 3: I think prohibition was already about to happen before the

1230
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:19,599
Speaker 3: pandemic hit. It may have sped it along. I don't

1231
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:22,680
Speaker 3: think it's that a determinant. I understand, and it's a

1232
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 3: really really good argument. This.

1233
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:27,920
Speaker 1: It's something that i've like, I've and I totally accept

1234
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:31,519
Speaker 1: the premise. It's my own interpretation, but I know it's

1235
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:34,240
Speaker 1: sort of like, Okay, I think I understand how.

1236
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:36,880
Speaker 3: We talked a lot about it with scholars. I think

1237
01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:40,400
Speaker 3: what happens is that you have a rare sort of

1238
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:44,360
Speaker 3: eclips like situation where you have a conservative movement that

1239
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:48,439
Speaker 3: is starting first with temperance, which means moderation, that all

1240
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:52,719
Speaker 3: of a sudden becomes absolute. The Anti Saloonty League takes over,

1241
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:56,960
Speaker 3: and it's all about no, and it's a conservative thing,

1242
01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:59,960
Speaker 3: and a lot of it's based on immigration. Catholics are

1243
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:02,920
Speaker 3: coming in and so you want to take away the sacrament,

1244
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 3: Blacks have the vote, you want to take away the bottle.

1245
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:09,400
Speaker 3: You know, you've got these other ulterior, sort of darker motives.

1246
01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:11,479
Speaker 3: And it's a conservative movement. And then you have the

1247
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 3: progressive movement, which you can say is liberal or not.

1248
01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:18,439
Speaker 3: It doesn't really fit quite great, but they're going along

1249
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:21,160
Speaker 3: saying that government, as I said, could be an instrumentality

1250
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:25,200
Speaker 3: of social change. So if you reverse engineer it. We

1251
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:27,760
Speaker 3: have an amendment to the Constitution, the only one that's

1252
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:32,240
Speaker 3: been repealed, the only one that limited human freedom, that

1253
01:14:32,439 --> 01:14:36,040
Speaker 3: was prohibition. And you had people on both sides of

1254
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:39,760
Speaker 3: the aisle buying into it for different reasons. I'd say

1255
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:42,800
Speaker 3: a much more determinate part. And again it's based chuck

1256
01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:47,880
Speaker 3: on fear. So your pandemic of the influenced Spanish influenza

1257
01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:52,960
Speaker 3: thing is not is the First World War. So Germans

1258
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:56,240
Speaker 3: were brewers, and it became very easy to say they

1259
01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:59,960
Speaker 3: had been equating all the nineteenth century that it's great,

1260
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:06,320
Speaker 3: beer equals bread, it's the milk of human kindness, and

1261
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:10,720
Speaker 3: suddenly they're the enemy, and so it becomes possible to

1262
01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:15,160
Speaker 3: begin to rev up your population in that sort of

1263
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:17,600
Speaker 3: the thing that happens when people react by fear. And

1264
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:20,719
Speaker 3: I would think it's more the anti German sentiment. Most

1265
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:23,719
Speaker 3: of the brewers, if not all the brewers were Germans.

1266
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:26,800
Speaker 3: And then this sense of social change combining with the

1267
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:30,200
Speaker 3: anti immigrant, anti black, anti Catholic sort of sentiments, and

1268
01:15:30,240 --> 01:15:33,559
Speaker 3: the idea too but very legitimate idea that as our

1269
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:36,320
Speaker 3: first episode of three was called, we were a nation

1270
01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:40,320
Speaker 3: of drunkards. Alcohol was a big, huge problem. What we

1271
01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 3: learned is that we couldn't address it by you know,

1272
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:45,400
Speaker 3: as Twain said again never wrote a bad sent in

1273
01:15:45,439 --> 01:15:49,559
Speaker 3: his life, the prohibition of anything makes it worthwhile, you know.

1274
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:54,280
Speaker 3: Or as he also said, nothing so needs reforming as

1275
01:15:54,439 --> 01:15:58,519
Speaker 3: other people's habits, you know, And that's what prohibition is,

1276
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:01,160
Speaker 3: reforming other people's habits.

1277
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:06,040
Speaker 1: So you know, when I look at your your overall

1278
01:16:07,200 --> 01:16:09,640
Speaker 1: and you say that you want to hit reconstruction, I mean,

1279
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:12,120
Speaker 1: in some ways there are still more stories to tell.

1280
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:15,400
Speaker 1: On other ways, you've hit a lot of the big

1281
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:18,160
Speaker 1: stories but there are different slices. You could always go

1282
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:25,679
Speaker 1: at that's different. You have religion, you always historically note,

1283
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:29,120
Speaker 1: but you've you've never I say never you did. I'm

1284
01:16:29,120 --> 01:16:30,840
Speaker 1: not going to say never you did the early on

1285
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:36,639
Speaker 1: the Shakers. But you know, I think so I go

1286
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:41,360
Speaker 1: in political science curriculum, you're never And I think it's

1287
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:43,799
Speaker 1: a huge mistake by universities. If you're trying to study

1288
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:47,120
Speaker 1: the politics of any society and you don't understand the

1289
01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:51,240
Speaker 1: following three things. It's religious history, it's sort of economic

1290
01:16:51,320 --> 01:16:54,360
Speaker 1: engine and its demography demographic history, then you're not going

1291
01:16:54,400 --> 01:16:56,800
Speaker 1: to understand. These are, by the way, three classes that

1292
01:16:56,880 --> 01:16:59,840
Speaker 1: no political science community makes requirements. It's one of these.

1293
01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:03,839
Speaker 1: I find the whole. You know, political theory is fine

1294
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:06,599
Speaker 1: to know, but you need to know other things. I agree,

1295
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:11,839
Speaker 1: and you know, I believe and I always I I uh,

1296
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:13,960
Speaker 1: when I got to college, I didn't know who Ponnscious

1297
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:17,840
Speaker 1: Pilot was really and I just didn't. I grew up

1298
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:22,120
Speaker 1: I was basically I say, basically, I'm Jewish, but I

1299
01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:26,679
Speaker 1: didn't really I had no knowledge of the New Testament.

1300
01:17:26,720 --> 01:17:30,920
Speaker 1: And you know, I think of myself as incredibly well read.

1301
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:33,559
Speaker 1: My parents were well read, and yet I remember, and

1302
01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 1: I got shamed about it. It happened. I was a

1303
01:17:36,560 --> 01:17:39,080
Speaker 1: music composition major for a brief period and I was

1304
01:17:39,080 --> 01:17:42,479
Speaker 1: having to write write in the style of Bach, and

1305
01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:46,400
Speaker 1: my teacher got my professor got mad. He said this

1306
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:49,599
Speaker 1: is too upbeat for conscious pilot. And I went like, Okay,

1307
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:52,519
Speaker 1: who's ponscious pilot? And he goes, well, I'm not telling you,

1308
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:55,679
Speaker 1: and that's sort of I literally went and read read

1309
01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:58,120
Speaker 1: the New Testament. I just sort of like realized, Okay,

1310
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:00,840
Speaker 1: I lacking education. And then I got upset. I'm like,

1311
01:18:00,880 --> 01:18:03,960
Speaker 1: you know, we don't teach the history of religion because

1312
01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:07,240
Speaker 1: we're so afraid. I know why we don't, right, I know,

1313
01:18:07,560 --> 01:18:09,639
Speaker 1: in the public school system we can have huge fights

1314
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:12,880
Speaker 1: over it, right, and so our fear of it. Sometimes

1315
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:18,080
Speaker 1: we just leave it out too much because those that

1316
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:20,800
Speaker 1: are devoted don't like when people deal with it as scholarship,

1317
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:25,320
Speaker 1: and those that aren't devoted don't, you know, in some ways,

1318
01:18:25,320 --> 01:18:27,839
Speaker 1: are like, you're giving it too much attention.

1319
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:32,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, and no that Yeah, well I'll tell you, Chuck.

1320
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:34,400
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you brought that up because I said

1321
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:36,320
Speaker 3: something the other day in some conversation.

1322
01:18:36,360 --> 01:18:39,759
Speaker 1: I confess like that conscious pilot story, but I always

1323
01:18:39,760 --> 01:18:42,080
Speaker 1: want it. I get it, but I also want it

1324
01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 1: as a Look, we all, no matter who you are,

1325
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:47,559
Speaker 1: there's certain things you don't know that you're embarrassed to say.

1326
01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:48,960
Speaker 1: And it's like you got to learn to say it.

1327
01:18:49,280 --> 01:18:52,679
Speaker 3: This is what I agree with you one, And there's

1328
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:57,519
Speaker 3: always a spiritual dimension to the films that we've made.

1329
01:18:58,360 --> 01:19:00,680
Speaker 1: You always do doing it.

1330
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:03,680
Speaker 3: Look, let's just take Article one. I mean, you know,

1331
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:09,040
Speaker 3: Amendment one of the Constitution, the first Amendment. Does it?

1332
01:19:09,400 --> 01:19:11,360
Speaker 3: You ask anybody on the street, you take your camera

1333
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:13,280
Speaker 3: out there and you stick the mic, and they say

1334
01:19:13,280 --> 01:19:15,800
Speaker 3: it's freedom of speech, right, And then maybe you get

1335
01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:19,640
Speaker 3: somebody who says freedom to redress your grievances, you know,

1336
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:23,800
Speaker 3: protest whatever it might be. And then those are the

1337
01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:26,559
Speaker 3: second and third parts of a three part thing, the

1338
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:29,320
Speaker 3: first of which is that the Congress will make no

1339
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:34,800
Speaker 3: establishment of any religion. And so one of my favorite

1340
01:19:34,840 --> 01:19:38,320
Speaker 3: sections in all of the Revolution film is one on deism,

1341
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:43,320
Speaker 3: which becomes this sort of aggregate not default, but kind

1342
01:19:43,360 --> 01:19:50,280
Speaker 3: of aggregate conscious choice of many of the mostly Protestant founders,

1343
01:19:50,400 --> 01:19:53,559
Speaker 3: you know, capital ab founders, and the whole idea and

1344
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:58,839
Speaker 3: Our scene begins with Thomas Jefferson saying, if my neighbor

1345
01:19:58,920 --> 01:20:01,519
Speaker 3: believes in twenty guys God or no God at all,

1346
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:05,519
Speaker 3: it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. So

1347
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:09,479
Speaker 3: we've all Religion has heretofore, the Founders understood, always been

1348
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:12,360
Speaker 3: the cultural. Every country has had an established faith, and

1349
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:14,320
Speaker 3: that has been the source of a great deal of

1350
01:20:14,360 --> 01:20:17,400
Speaker 3: the problems. But in fact, as we begun.

1351
01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:20,960
Speaker 1: To enlightened to understand that back then, actually it is.

1352
01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:22,640
Speaker 3: We are an enlightenment and.

1353
01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:26,400
Speaker 1: Invent This is what it is, is.

1354
01:20:26,360 --> 01:20:28,840
Speaker 3: That God we always you know, you hit a home

1355
01:20:28,920 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 3: run and you thank God. You know when you hit

1356
01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:33,920
Speaker 3: into a game ending doubles play, you don't thank God, right,

1357
01:20:34,479 --> 01:20:37,920
Speaker 3: And that's and somehow God is always responsible for this

1358
01:20:38,120 --> 01:20:42,360
Speaker 3: and the anthropomorphosizing and the narcissism that's involved. The Founders

1359
01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:48,360
Speaker 3: came to some very incredibly amazing enlightened idea that they

1360
01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:52,320
Speaker 3: they believe, almost all of them, believe in a supreme being,

1361
01:20:52,400 --> 01:20:57,240
Speaker 3: supreme architect, divine providence. You hear those words, right, And

1362
01:20:57,320 --> 01:21:01,000
Speaker 3: they believe that that God has takes no interest in

1363
01:21:01,040 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 3: the daily affairs of mankind and makes obviously therefore no

1364
01:21:06,439 --> 01:21:10,519
Speaker 3: distinctions between religions. So it then becomes in pursuit of

1365
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:15,679
Speaker 3: happiness back to that our obligation to make ourselves better

1366
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:20,000
Speaker 3: and then closer to whatever that being is, because if

1367
01:21:20,040 --> 01:21:23,439
Speaker 3: you're worse, you're cruder and you're devolving, and you're closer

1368
01:21:23,479 --> 01:21:26,920
Speaker 3: to the animals. And many might say Satan, but there

1369
01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:29,840
Speaker 3: is such an I've spent a lot of time looking

1370
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:32,960
Speaker 3: at deism and I find it such an interesting thing,

1371
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:34,960
Speaker 3: and nobody wants to do. I mean, I'm traveling around

1372
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:37,240
Speaker 3: the country and people say, well, this is a Protestant

1373
01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:40,200
Speaker 3: a Christian nation, and you go, well, you know, they're

1374
01:21:40,280 --> 01:21:43,600
Speaker 3: Jews and they're Catholics, and there's you know, all the

1375
01:21:43,640 --> 01:21:47,679
Speaker 3: animals religions that are brought over in the slave ships,

1376
01:21:47,760 --> 01:21:52,320
Speaker 3: including Muslim relationship, and then Native Americans have their own stuff.

1377
01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:55,519
Speaker 3: This is really polyglot, and people are in different parts

1378
01:21:55,560 --> 01:21:57,840
Speaker 3: of the country susceptible. One of the things that they

1379
01:21:58,080 --> 01:22:01,120
Speaker 3: resented in the back country of the Carolina and Georgia

1380
01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:05,360
Speaker 3: was that if it was the Anglican Church or the

1381
01:22:05,400 --> 01:22:09,160
Speaker 3: Presbyterian Church, or not Presbyterian, but some other church that

1382
01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:12,479
Speaker 3: was the favored of the governor, then you had to

1383
01:22:12,479 --> 01:22:15,320
Speaker 3: pay for the minister's salaries, and you didn't like that

1384
01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:17,920
Speaker 3: if you were a Methodist or a Baptist or a Presbyterian,

1385
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:21,400
Speaker 3: and so you have this sense of being suspicious of

1386
01:22:21,439 --> 01:22:23,960
Speaker 3: somebody trying to tell you their way is the only way,

1387
01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:29,880
Speaker 3: and that the government should in any way favor anyone

1388
01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:33,320
Speaker 3: flavor faith, whatever you want to talk. And if you

1389
01:22:33,360 --> 01:22:36,479
Speaker 3: go to Deism and understand, it's just you're and my

1390
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:40,680
Speaker 3: responsibility to move closer to God. However we see that

1391
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:45,000
Speaker 3: to divine providence, to the miracle of this snowfall out

1392
01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:47,360
Speaker 3: my window or the sunset that will come in a

1393
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:47,800
Speaker 3: little bit.

1394
01:22:59,360 --> 01:23:02,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it's honestly, it's quite surprising that the founders

1395
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:05,639
Speaker 1: were this enlightened, considering how important you know that the place,

1396
01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:10,000
Speaker 1: in some ways, the reason many of their their found

1397
01:23:10,280 --> 01:23:13,880
Speaker 1: their parents came here was for freedom to worship.

1398
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:18,320
Speaker 3: That's correct, and I think that what they realized.

1399
01:23:18,360 --> 01:23:22,640
Speaker 4: I mean that you have to say that that that

1400
01:23:22,760 --> 01:23:28,000
Speaker 4: we are the manifestation of the Enlightenment in the form

1401
01:23:28,040 --> 01:23:28,479
Speaker 4: of a country.

1402
01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:30,680
Speaker 3: The first ever I've said it on the road. I

1403
01:23:30,680 --> 01:23:32,519
Speaker 3: didn't say it in the film per se. I mean,

1404
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:35,160
Speaker 3: I said it's consequential revolution in the history, but I

1405
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:37,599
Speaker 3: said it's the most consequence, it's the most important event

1406
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:41,280
Speaker 3: since the birth of Christ in world history because it's

1407
01:23:41,280 --> 01:23:44,760
Speaker 3: set in motion revolutions for two centuries, but in set

1408
01:23:44,760 --> 01:23:47,440
Speaker 3: in motion, which for two hundred and fifty years is produced,

1409
01:23:47,520 --> 01:23:49,760
Speaker 3: you know, one of the greatest countries. Now, have there

1410
01:23:49,800 --> 01:23:53,439
Speaker 3: been series of mistakes, Yes, indeed, and I've spent most

1411
01:23:53,439 --> 01:23:56,240
Speaker 3: of my professional life not ignoring them.

1412
01:23:56,160 --> 01:23:59,519
Speaker 1: In the chronicling them in some ways, chronicling them in

1413
01:23:59,520 --> 01:23:59,840
Speaker 1: some ways.

1414
01:23:59,880 --> 01:24:03,200
Speaker 3: But you know, but it's not all dark either. It's

1415
01:24:03,320 --> 01:24:06,840
Speaker 3: it's an incredibly positive story. And if you listed all

1416
01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:09,160
Speaker 3: the good things, I don't know any other country on

1417
01:24:09,200 --> 01:24:11,360
Speaker 3: Earth that could put up, you know, starting with the

1418
01:24:11,360 --> 01:24:13,600
Speaker 3: Declaration and the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and

1419
01:24:13,640 --> 01:24:16,360
Speaker 3: then you just go on, whether it's land grant colleges

1420
01:24:16,479 --> 01:24:20,200
Speaker 3: or National Parks or Homestead Act or you know, child

1421
01:24:20,240 --> 01:24:23,840
Speaker 3: labor laws or anti trust or you know, the GI Bill,

1422
01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:27,479
Speaker 3: or Social Security, labor's right to organize, interstate highway, Man

1423
01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:31,960
Speaker 3: on the Moon, affordable care, Medicaid, medicare you know voting.

1424
01:24:32,040 --> 01:24:35,240
Speaker 3: I mean, this is like an amazing stuff and it

1425
01:24:35,240 --> 01:24:38,360
Speaker 3: has tangible things. William Luckdeberg the latest story and died

1426
01:24:38,400 --> 01:24:41,160
Speaker 3: recently at A. One hundred and two was an advisor

1427
01:24:41,200 --> 01:24:43,920
Speaker 3: for almost all the films that we worked on, but

1428
01:24:43,960 --> 01:24:45,639
Speaker 3: he was in our Roosevelt thing. He said, you land

1429
01:24:45,640 --> 01:24:49,320
Speaker 3: at LaGuardia, FDR New Deal, you go across the bridge,

1430
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:52,599
Speaker 3: FDR New Deal, you go through the Lincoln Tunnel, FDR,

1431
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:54,600
Speaker 3: you go down the Skyline Drive and the you know,

1432
01:24:54,760 --> 01:24:57,320
Speaker 3: Blue Ridge Parkway. The thing if you do the Lincoln Highway,

1433
01:24:57,320 --> 01:25:01,000
Speaker 3: if you do this damn ten thousand strips, you begin

1434
01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:04,720
Speaker 3: to understand all of the ways in which just that

1435
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:08,800
Speaker 3: one presidential administration transformed the country.

1436
01:25:09,920 --> 01:25:12,519
Speaker 1: How long? What is?

1437
01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:12,800
Speaker 3: You know?

1438
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:15,400
Speaker 1: I've been I was looking to see what's the shortest

1439
01:25:15,439 --> 01:25:21,320
Speaker 1: amount of time between an historical event or era that

1440
01:25:21,520 --> 01:25:27,160
Speaker 1: you would then feel comfortable making it talk about it.

1441
01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:29,960
Speaker 1: I guess the Central Park five is the shortest.

1442
01:25:30,120 --> 01:25:32,120
Speaker 3: Is that? Yeah? I think I think that's the correct

1443
01:25:32,120 --> 01:25:34,680
Speaker 3: All that we've had things like the Shakers and baseball

1444
01:25:34,760 --> 01:25:38,800
Speaker 3: and jazz country music, the present comes up to the press,

1445
01:25:38,880 --> 01:25:42,200
Speaker 3: we unlock the narrative and are more impressionistic for the

1446
01:25:42,280 --> 01:25:44,880
Speaker 3: last twenty five thirty years. That's what I've said. So

1447
01:25:44,960 --> 01:25:47,479
Speaker 3: the actual event of the Central Bark Jogger, that's a

1448
01:25:47,520 --> 01:25:50,880
Speaker 3: film that came out in twenty twelve. Twenty thirteen was

1449
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:52,600
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty nine, so that's.

1450
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:53,760
Speaker 1: Still twenty five years.

1451
01:25:53,680 --> 01:25:57,439
Speaker 3: Still under twenty five years, but it's enough. Things are collapsing.

1452
01:25:57,439 --> 01:25:59,960
Speaker 3: You know what's interesting is I've had the great privilege

1453
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:04,160
Speaker 3: of interviewing Barack Obama for eight two hour interviews. I've

1454
01:26:04,160 --> 01:26:06,799
Speaker 3: got a couple more to go, but there's no rush

1455
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:11,120
Speaker 3: because what's happened in the recent political administrations is that

1456
01:26:11,200 --> 01:26:14,799
Speaker 3: it's constipated the scholarship. So by this time there'd normally

1457
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:18,680
Speaker 3: be twenty five books of scholarship on Barack Obama's presidency.

1458
01:26:18,720 --> 01:26:21,800
Speaker 3: But it hasn't happened, and so there's no urge to

1459
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:23,519
Speaker 3: go and do it till you can get to that

1460
01:26:23,680 --> 01:26:27,320
Speaker 3: point of triangulation, that is to say, the perspective that

1461
01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:30,000
Speaker 3: comes from new scholarship and new things in which you

1462
01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:32,320
Speaker 3: are not solely dependent on.

1463
01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:35,680
Speaker 1: Well, I'll give you a perfect example of how my

1464
01:26:36,000 --> 01:26:38,240
Speaker 1: view has changed about the century and how my view

1465
01:26:38,320 --> 01:26:41,120
Speaker 1: is or frankly, the Cold War. You know, I'm now

1466
01:26:41,200 --> 01:26:44,200
Speaker 1: more comfortable understanding that the Cold War was an outlier.

1467
01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:47,120
Speaker 1: It's an outlier in American history, It's an outlier in

1468
01:26:47,240 --> 01:26:49,920
Speaker 1: the history of the media. It's an outlier in all

1469
01:26:49,960 --> 01:26:54,440
Speaker 1: sorts of it's an outlier in our streamism in politics,

1470
01:26:54,840 --> 01:26:58,080
Speaker 1: but you don't fully appreciate it until you get farther

1471
01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:03,280
Speaker 1: away from it. That's great Barack Obama's election. You're gonna

1472
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:06,439
Speaker 1: have one interpretation based on it when you look at

1473
01:27:06,479 --> 01:27:08,960
Speaker 1: it through the prism of starting at say twenty fifteen.

1474
01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:13,439
Speaker 1: Now I look back now from a perch of twenty

1475
01:27:13,479 --> 01:27:16,439
Speaker 1: twenty six, and you now see that Obama and Trump

1476
01:27:17,080 --> 01:27:20,679
Speaker 1: are more intertwined, and they're going to be more intertwined

1477
01:27:20,680 --> 01:27:23,320
Speaker 1: in American history fifty years from now than I think

1478
01:27:23,360 --> 01:27:27,280
Speaker 1: either gentleman wants to what a wants to admit would be.

1479
01:27:27,400 --> 01:27:32,320
Speaker 1: That's sort of you know your successor whoever that person

1480
01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:37,160
Speaker 1: is in fifty years. You can't explain Trump without Obama.

1481
01:27:37,200 --> 01:27:39,080
Speaker 1: You're not gonna be able to explain Obama without Trump,

1482
01:27:39,200 --> 01:27:43,240
Speaker 1: like you're going to be intertwined. Yet you couldn't tell

1483
01:27:43,280 --> 01:27:47,519
Speaker 1: the Obama story in twenty seventeen completely. No, I don't know,

1484
01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:50,280
Speaker 1: And maybe that you can't tell this story completely and

1485
01:27:50,360 --> 01:27:54,400
Speaker 1: maybe it's twenty thirty eight, maybe it's twenty three, don't so,

1486
01:27:54,479 --> 01:27:58,320
Speaker 1: I guess, Mike, when do you feel comfortable. They're like, Okay,

1487
01:27:58,439 --> 01:28:01,400
Speaker 1: I can tackle a I could tackle an era now

1488
01:28:02,200 --> 01:28:04,320
Speaker 1: where new information isn't going to change.

1489
01:28:04,640 --> 01:28:06,960
Speaker 3: I used to stay twenty five thirty. I still believe it.

1490
01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:09,280
Speaker 3: I do believe it because of the rate of information.

1491
01:28:10,080 --> 01:28:12,400
Speaker 3: I wish there was more scholarship, and I will wait

1492
01:28:12,479 --> 01:28:15,080
Speaker 3: for that before I really begin to try to structure

1493
01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:18,960
Speaker 3: and put together the Obama thing. It's really just unbelievable stuff.

1494
01:28:18,960 --> 01:28:22,519
Speaker 3: But I'll give you an example that's close to tell you. So,

1495
01:28:22,600 --> 01:28:24,439
Speaker 3: we did a film that came out in twenty seventeen

1496
01:28:24,479 --> 01:28:27,880
Speaker 3: on the Vietnam War. It was ten episodes, eighteen hours.

1497
01:28:28,240 --> 01:28:32,400
Speaker 3: If I had done it ten years after the fall

1498
01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:36,080
Speaker 3: of Saigon in nineteen eighty five, America was in a recession.

1499
01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:38,680
Speaker 3: There's a Pacific rim but we're not talking about us.

1500
01:28:38,720 --> 01:28:42,320
Speaker 3: We're talking about Japan is a sentant, and we would

1501
01:28:42,360 --> 01:28:45,720
Speaker 3: see Vietnam as this ball and chain, this sort of

1502
01:28:45,840 --> 01:28:47,960
Speaker 3: like perpetual rain cloud.

1503
01:28:47,880 --> 01:28:50,519
Speaker 1: Over a scar on our car, as was a scar.

1504
01:28:51,120 --> 01:28:53,080
Speaker 3: So if you wait, if I waited twenty years, so

1505
01:28:53,200 --> 01:28:56,120
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety five, we are the sole superpower. We're in

1506
01:28:56,120 --> 01:28:59,840
Speaker 3: the middle of the largest peacetime economic expansion. We have

1507
01:28:59,880 --> 01:29:03,040
Speaker 3: just fought at Gulf War with all all of the

1508
01:29:03,160 --> 01:29:06,479
Speaker 3: you know, assembly of people. We would say Vietnam is important,

1509
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:09,679
Speaker 3: but it's you know, we've liberated, we've escaped the specific gravity.

1510
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:13,719
Speaker 3: If I've waited thirty years and it's twenty two thousand

1511
01:29:13,720 --> 01:29:17,880
Speaker 3: and five, we're bogged down in both Iraq and Afghanistan,

1512
01:29:18,160 --> 01:29:21,720
Speaker 3: and people are using Vietnam analogies to talk about that.

1513
01:29:22,040 --> 01:29:24,599
Speaker 3: And then you know, the film comes out essentially ten

1514
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:27,720
Speaker 3: years after that, forty years, forty two years after that,

1515
01:29:28,080 --> 01:29:30,720
Speaker 3: and you begin to realize that your job is to

1516
01:29:30,960 --> 01:29:34,160
Speaker 3: use the passage of time as triangulation, to use the

1517
01:29:34,200 --> 01:29:38,240
Speaker 3: scholarship as triangulation, to figure out how to more firmly

1518
01:29:38,479 --> 01:29:42,599
Speaker 3: understand an event by by what you've done, and sort

1519
01:29:42,640 --> 01:29:46,880
Speaker 3: of average out those things. Disaster not a disaster, disaster again,

1520
01:29:47,200 --> 01:29:49,920
Speaker 3: And so Vietnam undergoes lots of things, and of course

1521
01:29:49,960 --> 01:29:54,599
Speaker 3: it's none of those things. It's never history doesn't repeat itself.

1522
01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:59,120
Speaker 3: No event has ever happened twice, never has, never will,

1523
01:29:59,200 --> 01:30:02,920
Speaker 3: and so the trope of that becomes a kind of

1524
01:30:02,960 --> 01:30:05,080
Speaker 3: prison for us to get in. And so what you

1525
01:30:05,160 --> 01:30:07,960
Speaker 3: have to do is be dispassionate. You have to sort

1526
01:30:07,960 --> 01:30:11,240
Speaker 3: of like a disease. Tie yourself to the mass so

1527
01:30:11,280 --> 01:30:13,200
Speaker 3: that you can hear seriously sound, but you don't want

1528
01:30:13,240 --> 01:30:16,759
Speaker 3: to point arrows. Isn't this so much like today? Because

1529
01:30:17,240 --> 01:30:20,759
Speaker 3: as I said, you're dated instantly by that, and you've

1530
01:30:20,840 --> 01:30:24,719
Speaker 3: become you know, the historical profession has gone through many

1531
01:30:24,760 --> 01:30:29,320
Speaker 3: fashions of historiography. Right, So after World War Two, narratives bad,

1532
01:30:29,400 --> 01:30:31,479
Speaker 3: it's bankrupt. So we're going to replace it with a

1533
01:30:31,520 --> 01:30:36,920
Speaker 3: Freudian interpretation, psychosexual and it's going to be Marxist economic determinism.

1534
01:30:37,080 --> 01:30:41,480
Speaker 3: Somewhere along the line. It's symbolism, it's semiotics, it's deconstruction,

1535
01:30:41,800 --> 01:30:45,960
Speaker 3: it's queer studies, it's afrocentrism, it's whatever it is. None

1536
01:30:46,040 --> 01:30:49,920
Speaker 3: of those give you what all of those give you,

1537
01:30:50,000 --> 01:30:54,120
Speaker 3: which is a multitude modes of inquiry, multitude of perspectives,

1538
01:30:54,280 --> 01:30:57,000
Speaker 3: like the spokes on a wheel that make the wheel

1539
01:30:58,160 --> 01:31:02,120
Speaker 3: engineered to great strength, to able to bear a great load.

1540
01:31:02,240 --> 01:31:05,160
Speaker 3: So we draw in scholars on Vietnam or the Revolution

1541
01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:09,519
Speaker 3: that represent all sorts of different areas of scholarship, and

1542
01:31:09,680 --> 01:31:12,800
Speaker 3: we take in what their knowledge is, but not necessarily

1543
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:17,000
Speaker 3: their total interpretation. So scholars of Native Americans, one of

1544
01:31:17,000 --> 01:31:21,080
Speaker 3: the scholars. Christopher Brown is a student of eighteenth and

1545
01:31:22,760 --> 01:31:27,080
Speaker 3: nineteenth century British economy. He's a black man to go no, no, no,

1546
01:31:27,120 --> 01:31:29,640
Speaker 3: he must want to talk about slavery, and does, but

1547
01:31:29,760 --> 01:31:32,559
Speaker 3: only in the context of economic So you get a

1548
01:31:32,720 --> 01:31:39,920
Speaker 3: wonderful dynamic without having to subscribe to anybody's theory of

1549
01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:44,640
Speaker 3: how to understand American history. That's why, you know, and

1550
01:31:44,680 --> 01:31:48,080
Speaker 3: we're constantly being bombarded with what is the correct way

1551
01:31:48,120 --> 01:31:50,760
Speaker 3: to see this? You know, it's seventeen seventy six, or

1552
01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:55,360
Speaker 3: it's sixteen nineteen, or it's no, it's from eighteen seventy

1553
01:31:55,439 --> 01:31:58,320
Speaker 3: it's from seventeen seventy five to seventeen eighty one or

1554
01:31:58,360 --> 01:32:01,160
Speaker 3: seventeen eighty three, depending on whether it's Yorktown or the

1555
01:32:01,240 --> 01:32:02,240
Speaker 3: British leaving Ward.

1556
01:32:03,680 --> 01:32:07,280
Speaker 1: So well, let me ask about the Cold War. That

1557
01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:08,839
Speaker 1: feels like a Ken Burns project.

1558
01:32:08,880 --> 01:32:10,840
Speaker 3: It is we do you know what we've been talking about?

1559
01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:12,519
Speaker 3: The Cold War. I can't believe you brought that up.

1560
01:32:12,560 --> 01:32:15,800
Speaker 3: Check it's so we're on the same wavelength. So we've

1561
01:32:15,800 --> 01:32:19,519
Speaker 3: been talking for probably two decades about the Cold War,

1562
01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:22,200
Speaker 3: and about a year ago I said I want to

1563
01:32:22,200 --> 01:32:25,519
Speaker 3: make it the CIA. So we're doing a big we're

1564
01:32:25,600 --> 01:32:29,559
Speaker 3: just beginning to sort of unload and create the space.

1565
01:32:29,640 --> 01:32:31,360
Speaker 3: I like took all the books and stuff like that

1566
01:32:31,600 --> 01:32:33,479
Speaker 3: and put it in the corner of my house and

1567
01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:36,120
Speaker 3: I put a sign up over and said, Langley, you know,

1568
01:32:36,479 --> 01:32:38,759
Speaker 3: because that's where we're going to collect all the CIA

1569
01:32:39,160 --> 01:32:40,040
Speaker 3: notes and papers.

1570
01:32:40,120 --> 01:32:41,160
Speaker 1: We talked to something.

1571
01:32:41,560 --> 01:32:43,280
Speaker 3: We know how we're going to do it because you'll

1572
01:32:43,320 --> 01:32:46,040
Speaker 3: get the Cold War, which you also get all the

1573
01:32:46,080 --> 01:32:48,880
Speaker 3: intimacies of the stories, you know, Like I was just

1574
01:32:48,920 --> 01:32:51,400
Speaker 3: talking to Rick Atkinson the history and he described a

1575
01:32:51,479 --> 01:32:55,400
Speaker 3: friend that he knew, a Russian who disappeared because Alder

1576
01:32:55,560 --> 01:32:58,280
Speaker 3: James betrayed him. He was an asset for the United

1577
01:32:58,320 --> 01:33:01,719
Speaker 3: States working at the Soviet imbas in Washington. Poof gone.

1578
01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:05,120
Speaker 3: So all of a sudden, the abstractions of talking about

1579
01:33:05,120 --> 01:33:07,320
Speaker 3: Cold wars and stuff like that goes down to the

1580
01:33:07,360 --> 01:33:10,840
Speaker 3: minutia of somebody in Geneva doing this to somebody else.

1581
01:33:11,360 --> 01:33:13,760
Speaker 1: So my obsession with Cold War, with the Cold War

1582
01:33:13,920 --> 01:33:18,880
Speaker 1: has come from when people lament to me, I wish

1583
01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:21,120
Speaker 1: we were like this, you know, whatever it is. I

1584
01:33:21,160 --> 01:33:23,160
Speaker 1: wish our politics were this way. I wish our media

1585
01:33:23,200 --> 01:33:24,920
Speaker 1: were this way, and I wish and I go back,

1586
01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:27,160
Speaker 1: and I'm like, you're a child of the Cold War

1587
01:33:27,240 --> 01:33:31,040
Speaker 1: era and you don't realize you live in an outlier.

1588
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:33,599
Speaker 1: And then I'll go through, you know, and say, you know,

1589
01:33:34,080 --> 01:33:38,439
Speaker 1: we're actually we're reverting. Today's America is no different from

1590
01:33:38,479 --> 01:33:41,360
Speaker 1: nineteenth century America. There's a lot of differences and as

1591
01:33:41,400 --> 01:33:43,920
Speaker 1: far as people's freedoms and not but in some ways

1592
01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:46,519
Speaker 1: our politics is not this similar. We're still fighting about

1593
01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:48,519
Speaker 1: who gets to be an American and who isn't. We're

1594
01:33:48,560 --> 01:33:52,240
Speaker 1: still fighting about you know, shares of the pie and

1595
01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:55,400
Speaker 1: things like that. And oh, by the way, the nineteenth

1596
01:33:55,400 --> 01:34:00,400
Speaker 1: century was superpartisan, our media was superpartisan. And where are

1597
01:34:00,400 --> 01:34:02,920
Speaker 1: we today, you know? And then it has made me

1598
01:34:03,040 --> 01:34:05,720
Speaker 1: look at the Cold War as an outlier as far

1599
01:34:05,760 --> 01:34:09,920
Speaker 1: as in political history, right, we had I love to

1600
01:34:09,920 --> 01:34:12,280
Speaker 1: remind people are closest. We've had six of the last

1601
01:34:12,280 --> 01:34:14,760
Speaker 1: seven presidential elections been decided by five points or less

1602
01:34:15,120 --> 01:34:18,400
Speaker 1: in the entire twentieth century, when we had five, and

1603
01:34:18,479 --> 01:34:21,759
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, why and yet the nineteenth century, my gosh,

1604
01:34:21,800 --> 01:34:25,000
Speaker 1: we had twenty. I'm obsessed with the seven presidents between

1605
01:34:25,080 --> 01:34:27,559
Speaker 1: Jackson and Lincoln in twenty eight years, Like you want

1606
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:29,960
Speaker 1: to talk about instability. There's instability.

1607
01:34:30,240 --> 01:34:34,160
Speaker 3: You know, the popular vote. In seventy six, eighteen seventy six,

1608
01:34:34,280 --> 01:34:37,080
Speaker 3: Tilden wins the popular vote, and we had three elections

1609
01:34:37,120 --> 01:34:41,760
Speaker 3: with Grover Cleveland. He all won the popular vote three

1610
01:34:41,840 --> 01:34:45,040
Speaker 3: times and lost the middle one.

1611
01:34:45,600 --> 01:34:48,560
Speaker 1: And what I love to also remind folks is that

1612
01:34:48,600 --> 01:34:51,760
Speaker 1: we've had three straight one term presidents. We never had

1613
01:34:51,760 --> 01:34:53,760
Speaker 1: that once in the twentieth century, but we had it

1614
01:34:54,479 --> 01:34:57,280
Speaker 1: two different times. We went five straight one term presidents

1615
01:34:57,640 --> 01:35:01,400
Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century. So it is is I think

1616
01:35:01,439 --> 01:35:04,599
Speaker 1: we haven't fully appreciated. And this is where obviously it's

1617
01:35:04,640 --> 01:35:06,880
Speaker 1: sort of like why does experience matter? Because you have

1618
01:35:06,960 --> 01:35:09,240
Speaker 1: to sort of live to see it. You have to

1619
01:35:09,280 --> 01:35:12,080
Speaker 1: be able to look backwards and the world I grew

1620
01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:14,640
Speaker 1: up and I always think now that I grew up

1621
01:35:14,680 --> 01:35:16,640
Speaker 1: in the wrong I always think I grew up in

1622
01:35:16,720 --> 01:35:19,080
Speaker 1: the right era of the way the media worked, and

1623
01:35:19,120 --> 01:35:20,640
Speaker 1: it's like, no, in some ways, I grew up in

1624
01:35:20,680 --> 01:35:25,479
Speaker 1: the wrong era because it was a false premise.

1625
01:35:25,960 --> 01:35:28,840
Speaker 3: So you could make an argument therefore, with regard to

1626
01:35:28,920 --> 01:35:33,600
Speaker 3: I think your excellent theories about the Cold War is

1627
01:35:33,640 --> 01:35:38,439
Speaker 3: that when the Soviet Empire collapsed, the total destabilizing of

1628
01:35:38,520 --> 01:35:43,320
Speaker 3: American politics was assured, that is to say, destabilize from

1629
01:35:43,320 --> 01:35:46,120
Speaker 3: what you're calling the outlier of a kind of general

1630
01:35:46,680 --> 01:35:49,800
Speaker 3: consensus that had been built not since just forty five,

1631
01:35:50,040 --> 01:35:52,120
Speaker 3: but I would say back to the progressive era, where

1632
01:35:52,160 --> 01:35:55,080
Speaker 3: you had people in both parties wishing to use government

1633
01:35:55,160 --> 01:35:58,320
Speaker 3: as an instrumentality of progress, or at least, as tr

1634
01:35:58,360 --> 01:36:02,839
Speaker 3: would say, a countervailing force between labor and capital.

1635
01:36:03,320 --> 01:36:05,920
Speaker 1: And instead we basically were a period of just security.

1636
01:36:06,560 --> 01:36:10,479
Speaker 3: So what happens, yes, just surviving the thing, and so

1637
01:36:10,520 --> 01:36:12,800
Speaker 3: that when you take this away, you don't have an

1638
01:36:12,920 --> 01:36:16,599
Speaker 3: enemy anymore. And so who do you make the enemy?

1639
01:36:16,840 --> 01:36:20,360
Speaker 1: Each other? No? Right, well, well I love to remind

1640
01:36:20,400 --> 01:36:23,559
Speaker 1: people the Berlin Wall falls in eighty nine, and within

1641
01:36:23,680 --> 01:36:27,719
Speaker 1: three years the isolationist wing of the Republican Party sprouts

1642
01:36:27,760 --> 01:36:32,840
Speaker 1: up again, and Donald Trump's first campaign is launched. It's

1643
01:36:32,880 --> 01:36:37,080
Speaker 1: called Pat Buchanan's Campaign for President, and so and it's

1644
01:36:37,560 --> 01:36:39,639
Speaker 1: and I you know, and in fact, two of our

1645
01:36:39,680 --> 01:36:45,040
Speaker 1: closest presidential elections were followed by two of our biggest blowouts.

1646
01:36:45,360 --> 01:36:48,400
Speaker 1: So seventy two and sixty four were blowouts because each

1647
01:36:48,400 --> 01:36:52,080
Speaker 1: party went off the reservation, but sixty and seventy six

1648
01:36:52,120 --> 01:36:55,639
Speaker 1: were two of our closest presidential elections because both parties

1649
01:36:55,640 --> 01:37:00,840
Speaker 1: went back on the reservation and it was anyway. It's

1650
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:05,080
Speaker 1: just one of those where I feel like you have

1651
01:37:05,120 --> 01:37:05,760
Speaker 1: to capture this.

1652
01:37:06,280 --> 01:37:09,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I'm trying. I'm trying. Give me time, I'm

1653
01:37:09,240 --> 01:37:12,720
Speaker 3: taking vitamins, I'm walking, I'm doing my exercises. It's I've

1654
01:37:12,760 --> 01:37:14,400
Speaker 3: got that look, Chuck. I have the best job in

1655
01:37:14,400 --> 01:37:15,880
Speaker 3: the country. I do well.

1656
01:37:15,960 --> 01:37:20,880
Speaker 1: You're you are, you are this guy for us. When

1657
01:37:20,920 --> 01:37:24,799
Speaker 1: do you suspect you'll do your first twenty first century

1658
01:37:24,920 --> 01:37:27,479
Speaker 1: you know, an event in an era which the most

1659
01:37:27,479 --> 01:37:30,200
Speaker 1: obvious would be nine to eleven. But when do you

1660
01:37:30,240 --> 01:37:34,000
Speaker 1: feel like you'll tackle your first twenty first century event era?

1661
01:37:34,640 --> 01:37:42,879
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I think that part of the Central

1662
01:37:42,880 --> 01:37:45,840
Speaker 3: Park five begins in the early is resolved in the

1663
01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:49,280
Speaker 3: twenty first century. The update of baseball called the Tenth

1664
01:37:49,320 --> 01:37:53,479
Speaker 3: Inning ends in two thousand and nine. We've done some

1665
01:37:53,520 --> 01:37:58,360
Speaker 3: stuff on housing. I was executive producer. My daughter Sarah,

1666
01:37:58,360 --> 01:38:01,559
Speaker 3: who's one of our main directors, and her husband David

1667
01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:06,080
Speaker 3: McMahon have done things on public housing. I think the

1668
01:38:06,120 --> 01:38:10,720
Speaker 3: Obama one will be fully that'll be the perotentially. I mean,

1669
01:38:11,200 --> 01:38:13,200
Speaker 3: my first question to him is, of course where were

1670
01:38:13,240 --> 01:38:17,519
Speaker 3: you born? But you know, you should see the way

1671
01:38:17,560 --> 01:38:18,080
Speaker 3: I said it.

1672
01:38:18,080 --> 01:38:22,360
Speaker 1: It's a log cabin in Kentucky, right, that had been funny?

1673
01:38:22,600 --> 01:38:26,200
Speaker 3: You mean him Madras in Pakistan or Indonesia.

1674
01:38:26,479 --> 01:38:28,439
Speaker 1: Well, I've always said, you know, if he were this

1675
01:38:28,600 --> 01:38:31,240
Speaker 1: sort of counter this secret you know, idea of like,

1676
01:38:31,320 --> 01:38:33,479
Speaker 1: you know, to take over America, right with that was

1677
01:38:33,800 --> 01:38:36,280
Speaker 1: what a brilliant move, right to incubate him through Hawaii

1678
01:38:36,320 --> 01:38:38,439
Speaker 1: and all this stuff. Why would you name him Barack Husain?

1679
01:38:38,479 --> 01:38:40,759
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you call him Thomas Jefferson Obama?

1680
01:38:40,800 --> 01:38:45,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, So the log cabin is to your point, Yeah,

1681
01:38:46,120 --> 01:38:49,600
Speaker 3: it's it's a pretty great story. I've I've dealt with

1682
01:38:49,760 --> 01:38:53,559
Speaker 3: race Chuck forty plus films that have been out. I

1683
01:38:53,600 --> 01:38:55,400
Speaker 3: can count on the fingers of one hand.

1684
01:38:55,920 --> 01:38:57,280
Speaker 1: When is race not a part of it?

1685
01:38:57,320 --> 01:39:01,640
Speaker 3: And I say this because it's always a part or

1686
01:39:02,280 --> 01:39:05,320
Speaker 3: fingers of one hand and self enough time to snap

1687
01:39:05,360 --> 01:39:08,120
Speaker 3: my fingers. And I've gotten a lot of criticism over

1688
01:39:08,160 --> 01:39:12,240
Speaker 3: the years about it, from people, from critics, from even historians, friends,

1689
01:39:12,520 --> 01:39:16,880
Speaker 3: other colleagues, and they said, what are you going to stop?

1690
01:39:16,880 --> 01:39:19,720
Speaker 3: And when Barack Obama was inaugurated on December twenty, two

1691
01:39:19,720 --> 01:39:22,080
Speaker 3: thousand and nine. They said, now are you going to stop?

1692
01:39:22,240 --> 01:39:24,479
Speaker 3: And I held up the Onion magazine and it said

1693
01:39:24,800 --> 01:39:28,160
Speaker 3: black man given worst job in nation. And I just said,

1694
01:39:28,360 --> 01:39:31,840
Speaker 3: watch what happens. And at least to their credit, most

1695
01:39:31,840 --> 01:39:34,519
Speaker 3: people have come back and apologized that you're right. Race

1696
01:39:34,600 --> 01:39:37,639
Speaker 3: is central, it's the story. How can you say that

1697
01:39:37,680 --> 01:39:40,280
Speaker 3: we know exactly when we were founded, and we know

1698
01:39:40,400 --> 01:39:43,040
Speaker 3: what's our catechism, and it begins, we hold these schoos

1699
01:39:43,080 --> 01:39:45,160
Speaker 3: to be self evident, that all men are created equal,

1700
01:39:45,280 --> 01:39:48,320
Speaker 3: and the guy who wrote it owned other human beings.

1701
01:39:48,439 --> 01:39:52,760
Speaker 3: And so how are we not constantly both ennobled and

1702
01:39:52,840 --> 01:39:56,880
Speaker 3: also stricken by this, by that contradiction, in that hypocrisy?

1703
01:39:57,280 --> 01:40:01,040
Speaker 1: All right, let me let you play critic on historical fiction.

1704
01:40:01,200 --> 01:40:03,240
Speaker 1: What's your favorite historical fiction out there?

1705
01:40:03,600 --> 01:40:07,240
Speaker 3: Oh? To me, it's Michael Shara's Killer Angels. I read

1706
01:40:07,280 --> 01:40:09,800
Speaker 3: it and finished it on Christmas Day nineteen eighty four.

1707
01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:12,400
Speaker 3: Is visiting my dad, Michigan, and I said, I now

1708
01:40:12,439 --> 01:40:14,000
Speaker 3: know what I'm going to do for my next subject.

1709
01:40:14,040 --> 01:40:16,200
Speaker 3: And he said what's that. I said, the Civil War?

1710
01:40:16,479 --> 01:40:18,760
Speaker 3: And he said what part? I said, all of it.

1711
01:40:18,920 --> 01:40:20,479
Speaker 3: He just shook his hand and walked out of the

1712
01:40:20,560 --> 01:40:23,320
Speaker 3: room like, my idiot son, what's my son doing?

1713
01:40:23,439 --> 01:40:27,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, he's never going to succeed in this career.

1714
01:40:27,200 --> 01:40:29,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, there's no way people are going

1715
01:40:29,160 --> 01:40:31,559
Speaker 1: to watch nine no series.

1716
01:40:31,840 --> 01:40:34,439
Speaker 3: In the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. May they rest in peace.

1717
01:40:34,640 --> 01:40:36,599
Speaker 3: The first time three didn't turn this down. They said, look,

1718
01:40:36,640 --> 01:40:38,160
Speaker 3: you know, people watch an hour an hour and a

1719
01:40:38,160 --> 01:40:40,479
Speaker 3: half can yeah, are you really that we do a

1720
01:40:40,520 --> 01:40:44,200
Speaker 3: proposal five one hours. It only became because the editing

1721
01:40:44,280 --> 01:40:47,040
Speaker 3: was going well, the nine episodes in the eleven and

1722
01:40:47,040 --> 01:40:49,759
Speaker 3: a half twelve hours that it is, and so even

1723
01:40:49,880 --> 01:40:54,080
Speaker 3: at five one hours, my biggest source of our funding

1724
01:40:54,320 --> 01:40:58,760
Speaker 3: over the years wasn't sure that it would work well.

1725
01:40:59,080 --> 01:41:01,960
Speaker 1: Have you ever wanted to and either dramatized?

1726
01:41:02,840 --> 01:41:05,640
Speaker 3: First, wanted to be a filmmaker. My mom died when

1727
01:41:05,680 --> 01:41:07,760
Speaker 3: I was eleven. When I was twelve, my dad, who

1728
01:41:07,880 --> 01:41:11,120
Speaker 3: never cried during her sickness or death or funeral, cried

1729
01:41:11,160 --> 01:41:12,880
Speaker 3: at an old movie. Let me stay up and watch

1730
01:41:12,920 --> 01:41:14,479
Speaker 3: with him. And I thought, right then and there, I

1731
01:41:14,520 --> 01:41:16,680
Speaker 3: get it. I want to be a feature filmmaker. That

1732
01:41:16,720 --> 01:41:19,280
Speaker 3: means I'm David Lean, it means I'm Howard Hawks, I'm

1733
01:41:19,800 --> 01:41:22,200
Speaker 3: john Ford. I'm Alfred Hitchcock. And then I went to

1734
01:41:22,240 --> 01:41:26,240
Speaker 3: Hampshire College where they were doing nothing but social documentary

1735
01:41:26,240 --> 01:41:29,760
Speaker 3: is still photography. So I realized, truthfully that there is

1736
01:41:29,840 --> 01:41:32,360
Speaker 3: as much drama, if not more, in what was and

1737
01:41:32,439 --> 01:41:35,439
Speaker 3: what is than anything that human imagination dreams up. But

1738
01:41:35,479 --> 01:41:37,519
Speaker 3: I think about it all the time. But I don't

1739
01:41:37,560 --> 01:41:39,720
Speaker 3: have to, you know, Shelby called me up in the

1740
01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:42,320
Speaker 3: middle where editing had this huge problem. I called him

1741
01:41:42,360 --> 01:41:45,040
Speaker 3: up and I just I can't figure out how to

1742
01:41:45,080 --> 01:41:49,519
Speaker 3: do Vicksburg and Gettysburg. And he said, God's the greatest dramatist.

1743
01:41:50,240 --> 01:41:53,040
Speaker 3: I said, he said, I said, what goes God, It's

1744
01:41:53,040 --> 01:41:55,479
Speaker 3: the greatest dramatist. So I hung up, and I realized,

1745
01:41:55,520 --> 01:41:57,680
Speaker 3: just tell it the way it happened. So everybody either

1746
01:41:57,720 --> 01:42:01,639
Speaker 3: puts Vicksburg after Gettysburg or Vicksburg before, but actually Vicksburg

1747
01:42:01,720 --> 01:42:05,960
Speaker 3: happens before and during and after after Yettysburg. And that's

1748
01:42:06,000 --> 01:42:08,439
Speaker 3: exactly the way. And then he called me up and

1749
01:42:08,479 --> 01:42:10,120
Speaker 3: he said it again. He said, maybe a couple of

1750
01:42:10,160 --> 01:42:12,200
Speaker 3: years later, he goes, God's the greatest dramatis. Who would

1751
01:42:12,240 --> 01:42:14,160
Speaker 3: have thought that Lee would surrender the grant? And a

1752
01:42:14,200 --> 01:42:16,719
Speaker 3: few days later Lincoln would have enough free time after

1753
01:42:16,800 --> 01:42:19,720
Speaker 3: eighteen hours of days prosecuting the war to go to

1754
01:42:19,760 --> 01:42:22,880
Speaker 3: the theater. God is the greatest dramatist.

1755
01:42:23,080 --> 01:42:25,639
Speaker 1: No, it just tell the story.

1756
01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:28,320
Speaker 3: Just tell the story. And then and people say, what's

1757
01:42:28,320 --> 01:42:30,519
Speaker 3: your structure? I go and then and then and then

1758
01:42:30,680 --> 01:42:32,680
Speaker 3: if you look at our World War two drama, we

1759
01:42:32,840 --> 01:42:35,559
Speaker 3: land d day, go back to the reaction, and then

1760
01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:38,320
Speaker 3: go to Saipan, because that's what the front page of

1761
01:42:38,320 --> 01:42:40,600
Speaker 3: the paper is looking at. Everybody does, Oh, we'll do

1762
01:42:40,640 --> 01:42:42,600
Speaker 3: the European. Then we'll go to do the Pacific. And

1763
01:42:42,640 --> 01:42:45,439
Speaker 3: then you have no idea of their continuity, and so

1764
01:42:45,520 --> 01:42:47,519
Speaker 3: we then go back and they're having trouble breaking out

1765
01:42:47,520 --> 01:42:49,519
Speaker 3: of the hedgerows. And then you go back to the

1766
01:42:49,560 --> 01:42:50,719
Speaker 3: middle of the Battle of Sipark.

1767
01:42:50,760 --> 01:42:52,160
Speaker 1: I wish you were put in charge of the World

1768
01:42:52,160 --> 01:42:54,320
Speaker 1: War two memorial here. I'm not going to make you

1769
01:42:54,479 --> 01:42:58,439
Speaker 1: criticize it. It frustrates me to all end. How it is,

1770
01:42:58,680 --> 01:43:02,720
Speaker 1: how it just barely scratches the surface. I get it.

1771
01:43:02,800 --> 01:43:05,320
Speaker 1: It's what happens when you have a committee. Whenever you

1772
01:43:05,320 --> 01:43:06,599
Speaker 1: put a committee in charge of something.

1773
01:43:06,680 --> 01:43:09,519
Speaker 3: The greatest gotaclausm in human history. We can do better.

1774
01:43:10,080 --> 01:43:13,920
Speaker 1: We can do so much better than that. So America

1775
01:43:13,960 --> 01:43:16,200
Speaker 1: two fifty, How do you celebrate? How do you tell

1776
01:43:17,280 --> 01:43:19,560
Speaker 1: how do you tell somebody to celebrate? How would you

1777
01:43:19,600 --> 01:43:20,000
Speaker 1: reckon with?

1778
01:43:20,000 --> 01:43:24,120
Speaker 3: Well, it's all individual and independent, right, We're all citizens.

1779
01:43:24,160 --> 01:43:27,240
Speaker 3: We've got that great special privilege. What I've done every

1780
01:43:27,320 --> 01:43:30,880
Speaker 3: year is, with maybe one or two exceptions over the

1781
01:43:30,960 --> 01:43:33,519
Speaker 3: last forty years, is at our late cottage, I get

1782
01:43:33,520 --> 01:43:36,160
Speaker 3: out on the front porch and before I let anybody eat,

1783
01:43:36,240 --> 01:43:39,040
Speaker 3: I read them the Declaration of Independence. And it ends

1784
01:43:39,080 --> 01:43:42,960
Speaker 3: with we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes,

1785
01:43:43,240 --> 01:43:48,360
Speaker 3: and our sacred honor. And you know who, George Washington

1786
01:43:48,400 --> 01:43:50,479
Speaker 3: was probably the richest person in America, or one of

1787
01:43:50,520 --> 01:43:53,160
Speaker 3: the richest at the time of the revolution, certainly before

1788
01:43:53,560 --> 01:43:55,920
Speaker 3: he was, and he risked everything, his life and his

1789
01:43:56,000 --> 01:43:58,559
Speaker 3: fortune and his sacred honor. You know, you make we

1790
01:43:58,640 --> 01:44:01,120
Speaker 3: make a joke now of Washington's left here, But he

1791
01:44:01,240 --> 01:44:05,040
Speaker 3: spent between when he was named the head of the

1792
01:44:05,080 --> 01:44:07,800
Speaker 3: Continental Army, not the East Coast Army, but Continental. We

1793
01:44:07,880 --> 01:44:10,280
Speaker 3: knew where we were going. By the Continental Congress, we

1794
01:44:10,360 --> 01:44:14,720
Speaker 3: knew where we were going. In the early summer of

1795
01:44:15,120 --> 01:44:19,599
Speaker 3: seventy five, he gets back to Mount Vernon for four nights. Right.

1796
01:44:21,040 --> 01:44:24,480
Speaker 3: He comes back to Mount Vernon in December of seventeen

1797
01:44:24,560 --> 01:44:30,000
Speaker 3: eighty three. So who would And this is an idea

1798
01:44:30,040 --> 01:44:32,000
Speaker 3: that's never been tested. Now we've tested it for two

1799
01:44:32,040 --> 01:44:35,240
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty years. And could you imagine somebody in

1800
01:44:35,400 --> 01:44:40,120
Speaker 3: the top one hundred risking their lives, their fortunes, and

1801
01:44:40,160 --> 01:44:44,200
Speaker 3: their sacred honor for something as important as our founding.

1802
01:44:44,280 --> 01:44:48,120
Speaker 3: And so that's what the celebration of two fifteen. Nobody

1803
01:44:48,120 --> 01:44:50,479
Speaker 3: can tell you what it isn't nobody can tell you

1804
01:44:50,520 --> 01:44:54,040
Speaker 3: what it is. It's always complex, that's the nature of

1805
01:44:54,120 --> 01:44:58,800
Speaker 3: human beings, and we should be reveling in that complexity.

1806
01:44:58,880 --> 01:45:02,480
Speaker 3: Let me give you one slight example. The bell cow

1807
01:45:02,560 --> 01:45:06,240
Speaker 3: of the conservative movement at this time is the television

1808
01:45:06,280 --> 01:45:07,599
Speaker 3: series Yellowstone Right.

1809
01:45:08,520 --> 01:45:09,280
Speaker 1: Right, This is.

1810
01:45:09,920 --> 01:45:14,479
Speaker 3: Finally they've made liberal. Hollywood made a story for us, right.

1811
01:45:15,000 --> 01:45:17,479
Speaker 3: And what is at the heart of that story a

1812
01:45:17,560 --> 01:45:21,599
Speaker 3: patriarch who is the George Washington of the series, who

1813
01:45:21,640 --> 01:45:24,280
Speaker 3: also kills people who piss him off, just as his

1814
01:45:24,320 --> 01:45:27,240
Speaker 3: father and grandfather have done, dumping their bodies wherever they want.

1815
01:45:27,320 --> 01:45:30,080
Speaker 3: He's got a daughter cut from his same cloth, as

1816
01:45:30,240 --> 01:45:33,559
Speaker 3: ruthless as he is he's got two sons. One is

1817
01:45:33,760 --> 01:45:37,160
Speaker 3: tortured by the relationship to the land and the Native

1818
01:45:37,200 --> 01:45:41,360
Speaker 3: American story that has been superimposed without any questions over that.

1819
01:45:41,600 --> 01:45:44,639
Speaker 3: And he's married a Native American woman, right. The other

1820
01:45:44,720 --> 01:45:50,040
Speaker 3: son is Benedict Arnold, right. And then the daughter is

1821
01:45:50,080 --> 01:45:52,639
Speaker 3: in love with the chief foreman of this thing, who's

1822
01:45:52,640 --> 01:45:54,960
Speaker 3: in charge of a group of ranchers who are young

1823
01:45:55,320 --> 01:45:59,920
Speaker 3: and old, white and black, gay and straight, and over

1824
01:46:00,120 --> 01:46:03,240
Speaker 3: and surrounding them is this larger Native American issue and

1825
01:46:03,360 --> 01:46:06,840
Speaker 3: over that this idea of development. If that isn't as

1826
01:46:06,920 --> 01:46:10,400
Speaker 3: complex a storyline as anything I've said in which it's

1827
01:46:10,439 --> 01:46:13,720
Speaker 3: got undertow and all of the American experience. We made

1828
01:46:13,720 --> 01:46:15,960
Speaker 3: a film on the American Buffalo, and I remember looking

1829
01:46:16,000 --> 01:46:20,400
Speaker 3: at one scene where Kevin Costner plays the lead. John

1830
01:46:20,479 --> 01:46:23,680
Speaker 3: Dutton is explaining to somebody just about it, and in

1831
01:46:23,960 --> 01:46:26,559
Speaker 3: three seconds I just turned to my daughter and I said,

1832
01:46:26,880 --> 01:46:28,960
Speaker 3: that was our four hours on the Buffalo, you know,

1833
01:46:29,360 --> 01:46:32,040
Speaker 3: And he did it in like three sentences.

1834
01:46:32,080 --> 01:46:33,920
Speaker 1: Have you ever spent do you know? Taylor Sheridan?

1835
01:46:34,320 --> 01:46:38,200
Speaker 3: I know Kevin and he's one of the great guys.

1836
01:46:38,240 --> 01:46:43,120
Speaker 3: So anyway, yeah, it's it. Anybody trying to tell you

1837
01:46:43,200 --> 01:46:45,679
Speaker 3: how it was, or to simplify it, or to take

1838
01:46:45,720 --> 01:46:49,720
Speaker 3: down a plaque is scared and only authoritarians. And by

1839
01:46:49,760 --> 01:46:52,680
Speaker 3: the way, we follow in our film, and maybe this

1840
01:46:52,800 --> 01:46:56,200
Speaker 3: is a way to rem this out. We follow, among

1841
01:46:56,240 --> 01:46:58,600
Speaker 3: the one hundred and fifty different characters, we follow a

1842
01:46:58,680 --> 01:47:02,680
Speaker 3: German Hessian soldier named Johann Evold. He's openly contemptuous of

1843
01:47:02,720 --> 01:47:06,040
Speaker 3: these rebels. And he arrives in episode three at Staten

1844
01:47:06,080 --> 01:47:08,840
Speaker 3: Island when we send the first big batch there, but

1845
01:47:08,840 --> 01:47:11,360
Speaker 3: he's there in three, four or five and six, but

1846
01:47:11,560 --> 01:47:15,599
Speaker 3: he's part of the surrending army at Yorktown. And he says,

1847
01:47:15,760 --> 01:47:19,960
Speaker 3: after Yorktown, who would have thought one hundred years ago

1848
01:47:20,240 --> 01:47:23,439
Speaker 3: that out of this multitude of rabble could rise of

1849
01:47:23,479 --> 01:47:28,880
Speaker 3: people who could defy kings? These German soldiers who didn't

1850
01:47:29,000 --> 01:47:33,200
Speaker 3: get killed, who escaped and blended into the German communities,

1851
01:47:33,240 --> 01:47:36,439
Speaker 3: those who stayed and then got shipped back home. A

1852
01:47:36,479 --> 01:47:39,880
Speaker 3: lot of them came back with their families because they

1853
01:47:39,880 --> 01:47:43,559
Speaker 3: had seen the promised land. Who would have thought one

1854
01:47:43,680 --> 01:47:47,200
Speaker 3: hundred years ago, out of this multitude of rabble could

1855
01:47:47,240 --> 01:47:49,559
Speaker 3: a rise of people who could defy kings?

1856
01:47:50,240 --> 01:47:54,400
Speaker 1: Johann Evold, you didn't have to make up the script. Nope,

1857
01:47:54,960 --> 01:47:55,880
Speaker 1: it was right there.

1858
01:47:56,080 --> 01:47:58,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, God's the greatest dramatist, right.

1859
01:47:58,280 --> 01:48:02,360
Speaker 1: There, you go. Thank you, chev Ken. It's always a

1860
01:48:02,400 --> 01:48:05,559
Speaker 1: pleasure to talk with you. Like I said, you've got

1861
01:48:05,760 --> 01:48:10,320
Speaker 1: you've got the job that many of us political journalists

1862
01:48:10,600 --> 01:48:13,040
Speaker 1: wish we could. We wish we could be you for

1863
01:48:13,040 --> 01:48:13,400
Speaker 1: a day.

1864
01:48:13,760 --> 01:48:17,320
Speaker 3: Come on over. It's all fine where you know, it's

1865
01:48:16,920 --> 01:48:18,439
Speaker 3: it's it's we're up in rural.

1866
01:48:18,360 --> 01:48:21,320
Speaker 1: New I'm going to stay in my lane of campaign history,

1867
01:48:21,400 --> 01:48:23,960
Speaker 1: so I'm messing around in that world. I think, you know,

1868
01:48:24,360 --> 01:48:27,280
Speaker 1: I think people you know, don't don't try to do

1869
01:48:27,320 --> 01:48:28,439
Speaker 1: something you're not capable of.

1870
01:48:28,560 --> 01:48:31,479
Speaker 3: No, agree that that's the thing. I'm so lucky because,

1871
01:48:31,479 --> 01:48:34,280
Speaker 3: as I said, at twelve, I knew that, eighteen I

1872
01:48:34,360 --> 01:48:36,759
Speaker 3: knew what kind, and at twenty two it was history.

1873
01:48:36,840 --> 01:48:41,160
Speaker 1: So well it is, you know, and you never half asset.

1874
01:48:41,600 --> 01:48:43,360
Speaker 1: Sorry for the colorful language.

1875
01:48:43,080 --> 01:48:47,080
Speaker 3: No, no, no, this is there's a lot.

1876
01:48:46,280 --> 01:48:49,160
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people in your space. You could start,

1877
01:48:49,360 --> 01:48:54,519
Speaker 1: you know, Ken Burns presents somebody else's version of history,

1878
01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:56,680
Speaker 1: and you could license your name and make a whole

1879
01:48:56,720 --> 01:48:59,120
Speaker 1: bunch of money and not have to work anymore. Yeah,

1880
01:48:59,240 --> 01:49:01,639
Speaker 1: but I don't I get the sense that you wouldn't

1881
01:49:01,680 --> 01:49:02,200
Speaker 1: be proud of that.

1882
01:49:02,360 --> 01:49:04,960
Speaker 3: No, no, no, And and the work's the thing, you know,

1883
01:49:05,200 --> 01:49:07,599
Speaker 3: why would you take a shortcut? If if? I mean,

1884
01:49:07,640 --> 01:49:11,520
Speaker 3: every film is a million, no exaggeration, a million problems.

1885
01:49:11,800 --> 01:49:14,040
Speaker 3: But we don't see the problems as pejorita. We see

1886
01:49:14,040 --> 01:49:17,600
Speaker 3: them as inevitable friction that every marathon runner knows. I

1887
01:49:17,600 --> 01:49:19,320
Speaker 3: don't want to pick up my foot this next time

1888
01:49:19,560 --> 01:49:21,439
Speaker 3: I've picked up my foot. I don't want to pick

1889
01:49:21,520 --> 01:49:23,040
Speaker 3: up the night I pick up my foot. And you

1890
01:49:23,120 --> 01:49:25,439
Speaker 3: just you figure this out? How do you tell this story?

1891
01:49:25,439 --> 01:49:27,720
Speaker 3: How do you do Vicksburg? And Getty's all right?

1892
01:49:28,160 --> 01:49:30,960
Speaker 1: There you go. Look, I think the more remarkable thing

1893
01:49:31,040 --> 01:49:33,000
Speaker 1: is not how many you start, it's how many you finish.

1894
01:49:33,120 --> 01:49:35,559
Speaker 3: That's right. And we've been so lushing is the hard part.

1895
01:49:35,680 --> 01:49:39,719
Speaker 3: We have finished. We have not abandoned a project once

1896
01:49:39,760 --> 01:49:44,160
Speaker 3: we started shooting. Been very lucky, lucky, so lucky.

1897
01:49:44,360 --> 01:49:46,519
Speaker 1: Well we're the lucky ones. Ken. Always a pleasure.

1898
01:49:46,800 --> 01:49:48,080
Speaker 3: Thank you, Check see you next time.

1899
01:49:48,400 --> 01:49:49,439
Speaker 1: Happy birthday, America.

1900
01:49:49,600 --> 01:49:52,439
Speaker 3: Thanks yeah, happy birthday. Let's let's have a real celebration.

1901
01:49:52,800 --> 01:50:08,599
Speaker 1: Absolutely, thank you. I could have gone another hour with Ken, Burns.

1902
01:50:08,640 --> 01:50:10,920
Speaker 1: I'm sure most of you would have stuck right with me,

1903
01:50:11,160 --> 01:50:15,240
Speaker 1: and we did. But better to preserve that relationship with him,

1904
01:50:15,280 --> 01:50:17,080
Speaker 1: So maybe I can get him back almost once a year.

1905
01:50:17,200 --> 01:50:18,960
Speaker 1: That would be the real treat if I could get

1906
01:50:19,080 --> 01:50:21,439
Speaker 1: if I could guarantee Ken Burns once a year on

1907
01:50:21,479 --> 01:50:25,040
Speaker 1: the podcast, I think I would, I'd feel pretty good

1908
01:50:25,040 --> 01:50:31,080
Speaker 1: about myself on that one. I'm looking forward to America

1909
01:50:31,120 --> 01:50:33,519
Speaker 1: two fifty. I know that there's you know, it's a

1910
01:50:33,560 --> 01:50:36,559
Speaker 1: fraught time politically. Guess what the bi centennial in nineteen

1911
01:50:36,600 --> 01:50:38,439
Speaker 1: seventy six, which I'm not going to pretend I had

1912
01:50:38,479 --> 01:50:41,280
Speaker 1: any memory of I was four, also was happening at

1913
01:50:41,320 --> 01:50:46,000
Speaker 1: a time all right questioning. You know, we a lot

1914
01:50:46,080 --> 01:50:49,400
Speaker 1: of weakness in the American presidency, a lot of concern, there,

1915
01:50:49,640 --> 01:50:52,280
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of you know, is America.

1916
01:50:53,040 --> 01:50:54,960
Speaker 1: Our economy was weak, and you know, it was a

1917
01:50:54,960 --> 01:51:02,040
Speaker 1: moment of weakness. And yet and yeah, there was still

1918
01:51:02,120 --> 01:51:05,760
Speaker 1: unity because the hope for a more perfect union was

1919
01:51:05,760 --> 01:51:07,639
Speaker 1: still out there. And I think we should still take

1920
01:51:07,680 --> 01:51:09,400
Speaker 1: a look at America two fifty as I hope for

1921
01:51:09,439 --> 01:51:11,880
Speaker 1: a more perfect union. And what I really hope people

1922
01:51:12,000 --> 01:51:14,000
Speaker 1: use America to fifty to do is to start thinking

1923
01:51:14,000 --> 01:51:17,680
Speaker 1: about ways we can update the democracy. It needs updating.

1924
01:51:17,800 --> 01:51:19,559
Speaker 1: We've talked about it. I'm not going to run my

1925
01:51:19,600 --> 01:51:22,840
Speaker 1: list now. I've done it before, I will do it again,

1926
01:51:25,280 --> 01:51:28,360
Speaker 1: but I'm looking forward to it. I got to I

1927
01:51:28,400 --> 01:51:30,960
Speaker 1: went to New York for the one hundredth anniversary of

1928
01:51:31,000 --> 01:51:35,400
Speaker 1: New York of New York of the Statue of Liberty.

1929
01:51:35,439 --> 01:51:38,800
Speaker 1: Easily it's it is the second greatest fireworks display I've

1930
01:51:38,840 --> 01:51:42,240
Speaker 1: ever seen, because the greatest fireworks display that I ever

1931
01:51:42,280 --> 01:51:45,920
Speaker 1: see happens every single year in the nation's capital. And

1932
01:51:46,000 --> 01:51:50,280
Speaker 1: I promise you, once you see that fireworks display, you

1933
01:51:50,320 --> 01:51:52,599
Speaker 1: will never want to see another Fourth of July fireworks

1934
01:51:52,600 --> 01:51:56,320
Speaker 1: display because every single one pales in comparison. The only

1935
01:51:56,360 --> 01:51:59,080
Speaker 1: one that came close was that New York was when

1936
01:51:59,080 --> 01:52:01,240
Speaker 1: they were all those works display for the Statue of

1937
01:52:01,280 --> 01:52:04,040
Speaker 1: Liberty when it turned one hundred, and you had I

1938
01:52:04,040 --> 01:52:09,000
Speaker 1: think twelve different ships launching identical fireworks displays, and it

1939
01:52:09,040 --> 01:52:16,040
Speaker 1: was pretty cool. So I've uh and I still have

1940
01:52:16,200 --> 01:52:20,600
Speaker 1: a hole. My father was a coin collector because you

1941
01:52:20,640 --> 01:52:24,000
Speaker 1: know a lot of there were a lot of the

1942
01:52:24,120 --> 01:52:27,759
Speaker 1: and he I have all these bi centennial mint coins

1943
01:52:27,760 --> 01:52:30,200
Speaker 1: from the mint, you know, first off the line, those

1944
01:52:30,240 --> 01:52:36,839
Speaker 1: little things. My father was obsessed with collecting bisentennial quarters.

1945
01:52:36,920 --> 01:52:39,519
Speaker 1: I think I still have a pile of bisentennial quarters.

1946
01:52:40,640 --> 01:52:43,719
Speaker 1: That's something. Man. If you find a bisentennial quarter in

1947
01:52:43,720 --> 01:52:48,800
Speaker 1: in real life these days, you've really found something. It's

1948
01:52:48,840 --> 01:52:52,200
Speaker 1: like finding that or an old weedy penny where it

1949
01:52:52,240 --> 01:52:54,479
Speaker 1: was not the Lincoln memorial on the back, but but

1950
01:52:54,479 --> 01:52:57,679
Speaker 1: but two grains, two pieces of two grains of wheat.

1951
01:53:00,680 --> 01:53:02,800
Speaker 1: I wonder what is less common to fine? I mean

1952
01:53:02,800 --> 01:53:08,080
Speaker 1: these days with change, right, who's paying in cash, let

1953
01:53:08,120 --> 01:53:13,080
Speaker 1: alone getting much change? All right, speaking of the past,

1954
01:53:13,520 --> 01:53:22,720
Speaker 1: let's jump into the toodcast time machine. So this is

1955
01:53:22,760 --> 01:53:25,800
Speaker 1: an interesting week in history coming up because there's two

1956
01:53:25,800 --> 01:53:30,680
Speaker 1: anniversaries that I decided to merge into one and to

1957
01:53:30,720 --> 01:53:35,559
Speaker 1: talk about how communication technology changed leadership, not just in America,

1958
01:53:35,600 --> 01:53:41,920
Speaker 1: but leadership in general. So there are certain inventions that

1959
01:53:42,000 --> 01:53:46,160
Speaker 1: quietly rearrange power. The printing press, the telegraph, the internet.

1960
01:53:46,920 --> 01:53:50,240
Speaker 1: Sometimes the shift doesn't happen when the technology is invented.

1961
01:53:51,040 --> 01:53:53,439
Speaker 1: It happens when someone figures out how to use it.

1962
01:53:55,160 --> 01:54:01,559
Speaker 1: So take this week in history. Imagine March twelfth, nineteen

1963
01:54:01,640 --> 01:54:05,280
Speaker 1: thirty three, across the United States, families are gathering in

1964
01:54:05,320 --> 01:54:10,559
Speaker 1: their living rooms around wooden radio cabinets. Banks have been

1965
01:54:10,560 --> 01:54:14,120
Speaker 1: closed for a week. At this point, the financial system

1966
01:54:14,160 --> 01:54:18,960
Speaker 1: has essentially frozen. People aren't sure whether the money in

1967
01:54:19,040 --> 01:54:23,360
Speaker 1: their bank accounts is even still there. And then the

1968
01:54:23,400 --> 01:54:28,240
Speaker 1: President of the United States begins speaking, not delivering a speech,

1969
01:54:29,240 --> 01:54:33,320
Speaker 1: talking my friends, I want to talk for a few

1970
01:54:33,360 --> 01:54:39,280
Speaker 1: minutes with the people of the United States about banking. FRANKN.

1971
01:54:39,400 --> 01:54:44,560
Speaker 1: Roosevelt's voice is calm that night, even conversational in tone.

1972
01:54:44,680 --> 01:54:47,400
Speaker 1: For tens of millions of Americans listening that night, it

1973
01:54:47,440 --> 01:54:50,480
Speaker 1: felt like the president had stepped into their living room.

1974
01:54:51,200 --> 01:54:54,400
Speaker 1: Now rewind two days on the calendar and fifty seven

1975
01:54:54,480 --> 01:54:59,560
Speaker 1: years earlier in history, to March tenth, eighteen seventy six.

1976
01:55:00,680 --> 01:55:05,200
Speaker 1: A scientist named Alexander Graham Bell leans over an experimental device,

1977
01:55:05,800 --> 01:55:09,640
Speaker 1: and he says, as he later recorded in his lab notebook,

1978
01:55:10,960 --> 01:55:15,000
Speaker 1: mister Watson, come here. I want to see you the

1979
01:55:15,200 --> 01:55:19,880
Speaker 1: very first successful telephone call. So Bell created instant voice

1980
01:55:19,880 --> 01:55:25,040
Speaker 1: communication between two people. Roosevelt would use the next communication revolution,

1981
01:55:25,240 --> 01:55:31,400
Speaker 1: radio to speak to an entire nation at once, and

1982
01:55:31,480 --> 01:55:37,960
Speaker 1: once that became possible, the presidency itself would be changed

1983
01:55:38,000 --> 01:55:43,120
Speaker 1: forever because communication technology doesn't just change how we talked,

1984
01:55:43,960 --> 01:55:50,240
Speaker 1: it changes how leaders lead. Now the story actually begins

1985
01:55:50,280 --> 01:55:53,720
Speaker 1: before Bell. During the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln spent hours

1986
01:55:53,720 --> 01:55:58,720
Speaker 1: in the War Department's telegraph office in Washington. Telegraph wires

1987
01:55:58,760 --> 01:56:02,160
Speaker 1: connected the president to directly to generals in the field

1988
01:56:02,280 --> 01:56:06,160
Speaker 1: in real time. The commander in chief could actually send

1989
01:56:06,160 --> 01:56:10,760
Speaker 1: his commands in real time. Right for the first time

1990
01:56:10,800 --> 01:56:17,040
Speaker 1: in history, the actual commander in chief could influence battlefield decisions.

1991
01:56:18,000 --> 01:56:20,840
Speaker 1: Before the telegraph, military orders might take days or even

1992
01:56:20,920 --> 01:56:25,560
Speaker 1: weeks to reach the commanders in the field. With the telegraph,

1993
01:56:26,240 --> 01:56:30,640
Speaker 1: Lincoln could read updates within minutes, and then it respond

1994
01:56:31,240 --> 01:56:35,800
Speaker 1: almost as quickly. It didn't just accelerate communication, it expanded

1995
01:56:35,840 --> 01:56:40,720
Speaker 1: presidential reach. But telegraph communication still required intermediaries right You

1996
01:56:40,760 --> 01:56:46,000
Speaker 1: needed operators sending coded signals. The telephone removed all of

1997
01:56:46,000 --> 01:56:50,440
Speaker 1: those barriers. Probably put some people out of work. It's

1998
01:56:50,480 --> 01:56:53,200
Speaker 1: a reminder new technologies always put people out of work,

1999
01:56:54,440 --> 01:56:57,960
Speaker 1: but they always create jobs we never thought of. Bell's

2000
01:56:58,000 --> 01:57:02,120
Speaker 1: telephone allowed people to speak directly across distance voice instead

2001
01:57:02,120 --> 01:57:06,400
Speaker 1: of code, conversation instead of telegrams. The immediate effects were

2002
01:57:06,400 --> 01:57:13,680
Speaker 1: economic and diplomatic. Businesses coordinated across cities instantly. Financial markets

2003
01:57:13,720 --> 01:57:19,200
Speaker 1: responded faster, political leaders could negotiate in real time, but

2004
01:57:19,240 --> 01:57:24,000
Speaker 1: the telephone still operated one conversation at a time. It

2005
01:57:24,080 --> 01:57:28,240
Speaker 1: connected an individual to another individual. It did not yet

2006
01:57:28,360 --> 01:57:36,200
Speaker 1: connect leaders to entire populations. That required broadcast technology. Enter radio,

2007
01:57:37,240 --> 01:57:41,880
Speaker 1: radio multiplied the voice. One speaker could suddenly reach millions. Now,

2008
01:57:41,960 --> 01:57:45,520
Speaker 1: Roosevelt wasn't the first president to appear on radio. Warren G.

2009
01:57:45,680 --> 01:57:48,600
Speaker 1: Harding broadcast was the first president to broadcast on radio

2010
01:57:48,680 --> 01:57:52,800
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty two. Calvin Coolidge actually used radio fairly regularly.

2011
01:57:53,480 --> 01:57:59,640
Speaker 1: Herbert Hoover did as well. But it's like dealing with television.

2012
01:58:00,040 --> 01:58:02,840
Speaker 1: Kennedy wasn't first, he just was the first one to

2013
01:58:02,920 --> 01:58:08,360
Speaker 1: get it. Roosevelt understood something as predecessors did not fully

2014
01:58:08,400 --> 01:58:11,400
Speaker 1: grasp when it came to radio. Radio wasn't simply awaited

2015
01:58:11,440 --> 01:58:15,480
Speaker 1: to just deliver speeches. It's actually a way to build trust.

2016
01:58:18,200 --> 01:58:23,720
Speaker 1: The first fireside chat, right, he just takes office, right,

2017
01:58:23,720 --> 01:58:27,480
Speaker 1: we're talking, you know. He got inaugurated first week of March.

2018
01:58:28,120 --> 01:58:29,920
Speaker 1: That was the last one. We ended up moving it

2019
01:58:29,960 --> 01:58:32,360
Speaker 1: to January after that, but we were still inaugure in

2020
01:58:32,360 --> 01:58:35,520
Speaker 1: our presidents in March. So literally this is part of

2021
01:58:35,560 --> 01:58:39,760
Speaker 1: his first hundred days, the honeymoon period first week right,

2022
01:58:41,640 --> 01:58:45,360
Speaker 1: and when he took office, the US was facing an

2023
01:58:45,400 --> 01:58:49,520
Speaker 1: economic catastrophe. Banks were failing. Confidence in the financial system

2024
01:58:49,520 --> 01:58:54,200
Speaker 1: that evaporated. Roosevelt declared a national bank holiday, but restoring

2025
01:58:54,240 --> 01:58:58,000
Speaker 1: confidence required more than legislation. It required explanation. So that's

2026
01:58:58,040 --> 01:59:00,400
Speaker 1: why on March twelfth, just days after he took the

2027
01:59:00,400 --> 01:59:03,920
Speaker 1: oath of office, Roosevelt spoke directly to the country on radio.

2028
01:59:04,480 --> 01:59:07,480
Speaker 1: Roughly sixty million Americans, nearly half the nation tuned in,

2029
01:59:08,520 --> 01:59:12,280
Speaker 1: and he simply explained how banks worked. He explained why

2030
01:59:12,280 --> 01:59:18,120
Speaker 1: they were closing temporarily. His speech was part information, part education,

2031
01:59:19,440 --> 01:59:22,520
Speaker 1: and he reassured listeners was plain language. Remember this is

2032
01:59:23,000 --> 01:59:25,360
Speaker 1: you got to meet people where they're at. You can't

2033
01:59:25,400 --> 01:59:30,520
Speaker 1: expect them to speak your elitism. At one point, he said,

2034
01:59:30,560 --> 01:59:32,440
Speaker 1: I can assure you that it is safer to keep

2035
01:59:32,480 --> 01:59:36,120
Speaker 1: your money in a reopened bank than under the mattress.

2036
01:59:37,160 --> 01:59:39,520
Speaker 1: The tone was not presidential in the traditional sense at

2037
01:59:39,520 --> 01:59:42,120
Speaker 1: the time. It was something they'd never heard from a president.

2038
01:59:43,040 --> 01:59:45,280
Speaker 1: It was like hearing from their father or grandfather. It

2039
01:59:45,400 --> 01:59:52,520
Speaker 1: was conversational. President sounded less like some distant authority figure

2040
01:59:53,800 --> 01:59:57,160
Speaker 1: and more like the well informed, nice gentleman next door,

2041
01:59:58,360 --> 02:00:04,120
Speaker 1: and that intimacy changed xations. The presidency had already been

2042
02:00:04,400 --> 02:00:08,560
Speaker 1: evolving towards a more personal role. Andrew Jackson built direct

2043
02:00:08,600 --> 02:00:12,520
Speaker 1: political loyalty through newspapers. Teddy Roosevelt dominated press coverage and

2044
02:00:12,520 --> 02:00:16,000
Speaker 1: described the presidency as a bully pulpit, a phrase we

2045
02:00:16,040 --> 02:00:20,680
Speaker 1: still use today. Woodrow Wilson pioneered presidential press conferences and

2046
02:00:20,760 --> 02:00:24,320
Speaker 1: personal appeals to the public, but he always needed he

2047
02:00:24,400 --> 02:00:27,720
Speaker 1: was always having to. Both he and Roosevelt, while they

2048
02:00:27,800 --> 02:00:31,320
Speaker 1: understood trying to talk over the press, still needed the

2049
02:00:31,360 --> 02:00:34,400
Speaker 1: press to let the public know what they were saying.

2050
02:00:35,600 --> 02:00:39,440
Speaker 1: Radio changed all of that. Radio changed the scale. For

2051
02:00:39,520 --> 02:00:41,800
Speaker 1: the first time, a president could speak directly to the

2052
02:00:41,920 --> 02:00:47,480
Speaker 1: entire nation simultaneously without any filter, without newspapers filtering it,

2053
02:00:47,880 --> 02:00:51,960
Speaker 1: without intermediaries trying to interpret the words, and that scale

2054
02:00:52,000 --> 02:00:58,720
Speaker 1: transformed the office itself, for good and for bad. After Roosevelt,

2055
02:00:58,720 --> 02:01:02,080
Speaker 1: Americans expected their press not just to govern, but to

2056
02:01:02,120 --> 02:01:07,720
Speaker 1: communicate constantly. Ever since then, Right, the tallest guy wins,

2057
02:01:09,160 --> 02:01:14,800
Speaker 1: the one who looks best on TV wins. Suddenly the

2058
02:01:14,840 --> 02:01:18,040
Speaker 1: ability to communicate and what we believe gives people the

2059
02:01:18,080 --> 02:01:22,520
Speaker 1: ability to communicate mattered more than anything else when it

2060
02:01:22,520 --> 02:01:27,160
Speaker 1: came to electing our presidents. Now here's a truism. Every

2061
02:01:27,160 --> 02:01:35,560
Speaker 1: technology resets leadership, and once that relationship existed, each new

2062
02:01:35,560 --> 02:01:42,280
Speaker 1: communication technology reshaped leadership again. Television created visual the visual presidency.

2063
02:01:42,920 --> 02:01:45,240
Speaker 1: I think John F. Kennedy in the first televised debates.

2064
02:01:46,200 --> 02:01:48,960
Speaker 1: Cable news created the permanent media cycle. The fact that

2065
02:01:49,040 --> 02:01:51,839
Speaker 1: this is we don't just check in on a president

2066
02:01:51,840 --> 02:01:55,440
Speaker 1: once a week anymore. Later, presidents had to navigate the

2067
02:01:55,520 --> 02:02:01,120
Speaker 1: environment constantly. Digital technology reshaped campaign George Bush used digital

2068
02:02:01,160 --> 02:02:05,400
Speaker 1: tools for sophisticated voter targeting. Barack Obama used the Internet

2069
02:02:05,440 --> 02:02:10,320
Speaker 1: to build organizing networks, then game social media. Donald Trump

2070
02:02:10,320 --> 02:02:12,920
Speaker 1: became the first president to use social media as a

2071
02:02:12,920 --> 02:02:18,080
Speaker 1: primary channel for communicating directly with the public. Each technological

2072
02:02:18,160 --> 02:02:23,839
Speaker 1: shift removed more intermediaries. Each shift strengthened direct connection between

2073
02:02:23,920 --> 02:02:29,560
Speaker 1: leader and audience. And this didn't just change politics. This

2074
02:02:29,680 --> 02:02:33,960
Speaker 1: same transformation has happened in the corporate boardrooms took a

2075
02:02:33,960 --> 02:02:36,800
Speaker 1: little longer. For much of the twentieth century, CEOs were

2076
02:02:36,880 --> 02:02:41,320
Speaker 1: largely invisible figures. They managed companies, They spoke mainly to

2077
02:02:41,360 --> 02:02:45,880
Speaker 1: boards and investors. Public communication was seen as secondary. Today

2078
02:02:45,960 --> 02:02:50,440
Speaker 1: that expectation is completely flipped. If you don't have a

2079
02:02:50,480 --> 02:02:55,280
Speaker 1: CEO that can go on CNBC and be charming, interesting,

2080
02:02:57,480 --> 02:02:59,440
Speaker 1: you're going to be considered a bad CEO, no matter

2081
02:02:59,440 --> 02:03:04,120
Speaker 1: how well you manage people. And now the modern CEO

2082
02:03:04,560 --> 02:03:08,919
Speaker 1: is expected to appear everywhere, communicate constantly, earnings calls, interviews,

2083
02:03:08,920 --> 02:03:14,360
Speaker 1: investor conferences, social media. Leadership itself has become partly a

2084
02:03:14,400 --> 02:03:20,360
Speaker 1: communications profession. The communication revolution didn't just reshape the presidency,

2085
02:03:20,440 --> 02:03:23,400
Speaker 1: it has reshaped what we how we even define what

2086
02:03:23,520 --> 02:03:28,000
Speaker 1: leadership means. If you can't communicate, you're no longer considered

2087
02:03:28,000 --> 02:03:31,680
Speaker 1: a great leader. And most of our great leaders could communicate,

2088
02:03:32,920 --> 02:03:36,280
Speaker 1: but not all great communicators can lead. And that's where

2089
02:03:36,560 --> 02:03:39,600
Speaker 1: you've got to be careful, just assuming every great communicator

2090
02:03:39,680 --> 02:03:46,640
Speaker 1: is also a great leader. So what's consequence of all this?

2091
02:03:47,200 --> 02:03:50,360
Speaker 1: Once communication becomes centralized in a single leader, power follows

2092
02:03:50,600 --> 02:03:54,280
Speaker 1: Congress debates collectively. This is why Congress has become I

2093
02:03:54,280 --> 02:03:58,120
Speaker 1: think the acceleration of the weakness of Congress has almost

2094
02:03:58,240 --> 02:04:02,680
Speaker 1: is you know, it is coincided with the increase of

2095
02:04:02,800 --> 02:04:07,879
Speaker 1: personalized communications between the presidency and the public. Right the Congress,

2096
02:04:08,160 --> 02:04:09,920
Speaker 1: the House was supposed to be the people's house, and

2097
02:04:10,000 --> 02:04:13,280
Speaker 1: yet the president is the one that seems more connected

2098
02:04:13,320 --> 02:04:15,760
Speaker 1: to the public, even though the public doesn't elect them.

2099
02:04:16,080 --> 02:04:19,040
Speaker 1: The public actually elects intermediaries that elect them and call

2100
02:04:19,120 --> 02:04:24,040
Speaker 1: them electors. But this is the power of communications. Congress

2101
02:04:24,040 --> 02:04:27,680
Speaker 1: speaks collectively, a president speaks alone. Congress moves slowly. A

2102
02:04:27,720 --> 02:04:32,240
Speaker 1: president communicates instantly. Technology didn't change the constitution, but it

2103
02:04:32,320 --> 02:04:36,760
Speaker 1: did change the political gravity of our system, and we

2104
02:04:36,840 --> 02:04:41,680
Speaker 1: haven't fully figured out. Congress hasn't fully figured out how

2105
02:04:41,680 --> 02:04:46,240
Speaker 1: to reassert itself in this era of a new communications age.

2106
02:04:46,920 --> 02:04:50,320
Speaker 1: And we've now arguably had four iterations of this era

2107
02:04:50,360 --> 02:04:54,840
Speaker 1: of the communications tape. So what's the lesson. Well, between

2108
02:04:54,880 --> 02:04:57,600
Speaker 1: March tenth, eighteen seventy six and March twelfth, nineteen thirty three,

2109
02:04:57,720 --> 02:05:02,680
Speaker 1: communication evolved from private conversation to national conversation. Bell made

2110
02:05:02,760 --> 02:05:10,080
Speaker 1: voice communication immediate. Roosevelt made mass political communication necessary. Every

2111
02:05:10,120 --> 02:05:13,760
Speaker 1: communication revolution sence has pushed that relationship further. And if

2112
02:05:13,760 --> 02:05:16,680
Speaker 1: you look at our politics today, where presidential social media

2113
02:05:16,720 --> 02:05:20,360
Speaker 1: posts can move markets or announce policy before agencies or

2114
02:05:20,400 --> 02:05:25,000
Speaker 1: even briefed, you can see that the transformation Roosevelt began

2115
02:05:25,200 --> 02:05:31,040
Speaker 1: is still accelerating. I mean, I don't I fear the

2116
02:05:31,120 --> 02:05:35,320
Speaker 1: idea of direct democracy, immediacy President going out, I'm going

2117
02:05:35,400 --> 02:05:37,680
Speaker 1: to pull everybody. You tell me what decision you want

2118
02:05:37,720 --> 02:05:42,320
Speaker 1: me to make, and within five minutes the public responds,

2119
02:05:42,840 --> 02:05:46,080
Speaker 1: Does that politician then do what they say? The fact

2120
02:05:46,120 --> 02:05:49,720
Speaker 1: is we're getting awfully close to doing those kind of

2121
02:05:49,720 --> 02:05:56,879
Speaker 1: performative tricks. Bell made communication immediate, Roosevelt made it political,

2122
02:05:57,560 --> 02:06:01,480
Speaker 1: and we're still living inside that transformation. So there you go.

2123
02:06:01,520 --> 02:06:07,280
Speaker 1: I took two fascinating historic anniversaries this week, March tenth

2124
02:06:07,280 --> 02:06:10,600
Speaker 1: and March twelfth, the Bell phone call and the first

2125
02:06:10,640 --> 02:06:16,600
Speaker 1: fireside chat, and we decided to make two stops in

2126
02:06:16,680 --> 02:06:20,000
Speaker 1: the podcast time mission. Let's get to some letters.

2127
02:06:20,160 --> 02:06:30,080
Speaker 3: Ask Chuck, Ask Chuck, Ask Chuck.

2128
02:06:30,160 --> 02:06:32,240
Speaker 1: What have we got here today? Let's take a look.

2129
02:06:32,520 --> 02:06:37,080
Speaker 1: Let's get started here. First question comes from Tom Hurr. No,

2130
02:06:37,240 --> 02:06:40,640
Speaker 1: not that Tom Hurr. If you're a Cardinals fan and

2131
02:06:40,720 --> 02:06:42,480
Speaker 1: wondering if you're at work talking about the form of

2132
02:06:42,520 --> 02:06:46,680
Speaker 1: your former second basement, we are not. Here's Tom's question,

2133
02:06:46,720 --> 02:06:50,320
Speaker 1: how many similarities can you find between the Admiral Yamamado

2134
02:06:50,480 --> 02:06:52,640
Speaker 1: lead attack on Pearl Harbor and the Trump led attack

2135
02:06:52,680 --> 02:06:55,880
Speaker 1: on Iran surprise attack while diplomatic negotiations were ongoing, no

2136
02:06:56,000 --> 02:06:58,880
Speaker 1: declaration of war, the deaths of thousands, including many civilians,

2137
02:06:59,080 --> 02:07:02,240
Speaker 1: and initial tactical success that led to a strategic disaster

2138
02:07:02,560 --> 02:07:05,800
Speaker 1: to be determined. When did a despictable act of treachery

2139
02:07:05,800 --> 02:07:07,760
Speaker 1: on a date that lives in infamy become a model

2140
02:07:07,800 --> 02:07:11,320
Speaker 1: for US military strategy? Would he like to be remembered

2141
02:07:11,320 --> 02:07:16,800
Speaker 1: as Donald Trump? Obono Trump motto, that's a tough I

2142
02:07:16,840 --> 02:07:19,040
Speaker 1: see what you're doing there. This is tough for for

2143
02:07:19,080 --> 02:07:22,240
Speaker 1: a guy like me to spend to spit out. Thanks

2144
02:07:22,240 --> 02:07:28,240
Speaker 1: for the great podcast. Uh wow, that's uh, that's quite

2145
02:07:28,280 --> 02:07:36,560
Speaker 1: the comparison. I I think I don't know if I'm

2146
02:07:36,600 --> 02:07:39,160
Speaker 1: gonna go with Pearl Harbor as the as the comparison,

2147
02:07:40,800 --> 02:07:47,200
Speaker 1: but it is if you when you look at it's,

2148
02:07:47,280 --> 02:07:49,520
Speaker 1: I guess it's you know, when you try to compare

2149
02:07:50,160 --> 02:07:54,880
Speaker 1: how he's started a war with Iran to how either

2150
02:07:54,920 --> 02:07:58,120
Speaker 1: of the Bush presidency started wars with the Rock and

2151
02:07:58,200 --> 02:08:03,480
Speaker 1: you're right, Pearl Harbor is actually a better a better

2152
02:08:03,480 --> 02:08:06,400
Speaker 1: comparison than and than either of the previous Iraq wars

2153
02:08:06,440 --> 02:08:10,880
Speaker 1: because the previous Iraq wars, the Bush presidencies did weird

2154
02:08:10,920 --> 02:08:16,720
Speaker 1: things like a galvanize the American public, make their case

2155
02:08:16,760 --> 02:08:19,320
Speaker 1: to the public, make the case to the UN, make

2156
02:08:19,360 --> 02:08:24,520
Speaker 1: the case to Congress, allow Congress to vote, And he

2157
02:08:24,600 --> 02:08:30,560
Speaker 1: did none of those things. So anyway, I it's an

2158
02:08:30,560 --> 02:08:35,560
Speaker 1: interesting comparison. You did a pretty good job of noting

2159
02:08:35,600 --> 02:08:42,280
Speaker 1: it is around America here, right, That's where That's where

2160
02:08:42,400 --> 02:08:44,520
Speaker 1: I think we all run out of That's where you

2161
02:08:44,600 --> 02:08:46,960
Speaker 1: run out of it. But I understand the point you're

2162
02:08:46,960 --> 02:08:50,160
Speaker 1: making here, and I think it frankly coincides with what

2163
02:08:50,280 --> 02:08:54,000
Speaker 1: I'm the point I was making up top. It's easy

2164
02:08:54,080 --> 02:08:56,640
Speaker 1: to start one of these things, it is hard to

2165
02:08:56,680 --> 02:08:58,480
Speaker 1: get out of from under it, and I think he

2166
02:08:58,640 --> 02:09:04,400
Speaker 1: is stuck in some presidential Quicksan next question comes from

2167
02:09:04,440 --> 02:09:07,360
Speaker 1: Chase Carmichael, Little Rock, Arkansas. Chase writes, did anything actually

2168
02:09:07,520 --> 02:09:10,120
Speaker 1: substantive come out of Trump's college sports roundtable last week?

2169
02:09:10,760 --> 02:09:12,360
Speaker 1: Been trying to track down the highlights, but I think

2170
02:09:12,400 --> 02:09:15,200
Speaker 1: the coverage got slightly buried under the World War three headlines. Yes,

2171
02:09:15,240 --> 02:09:17,680
Speaker 1: it did s hary to focus on nil reforms and

2172
02:09:17,720 --> 02:09:20,120
Speaker 1: eligibility brackets when the twenty four hour news cycle feels

2173
02:09:20,160 --> 02:09:24,240
Speaker 1: like a trailer for a fall up shelter. I don't

2174
02:09:24,280 --> 02:09:28,040
Speaker 1: mean the laugh chase, but that's pretty funny. Look, I

2175
02:09:28,200 --> 02:09:32,160
Speaker 1: was gonna wait until after questions to do this, but yeah,

2176
02:09:32,200 --> 02:09:34,840
Speaker 1: I mean it was. It's a joke. Right. He didn't

2177
02:09:34,840 --> 02:09:37,520
Speaker 1: have a single current athlete there, didn't have any current

2178
02:09:37,520 --> 02:09:39,120
Speaker 1: And if you weren't going to put current athletes there,

2179
02:09:39,160 --> 02:09:41,960
Speaker 1: how about current agents? He had former athletes there. I

2180
02:09:41,960 --> 02:09:45,120
Speaker 1: think Charlie Ward was invited. Like I said, Marco Rubios,

2181
02:09:45,160 --> 02:09:47,360
Speaker 1: the father of a college athlete. His son played for

2182
02:09:47,400 --> 02:09:50,120
Speaker 1: the Florida Gators scored a touchdown in a bowl game

2183
02:09:50,160 --> 02:09:55,000
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. But you know, this was

2184
02:09:55,000 --> 02:09:58,080
Speaker 1: a classic case where Donald Trump remind you all the

2185
02:09:58,080 --> 02:10:01,240
Speaker 1: time he's an elitist. He surrounded himself with the old

2186
02:10:01,320 --> 02:10:05,360
Speaker 1: guard powers of college football, not the reality. Like you know,

2187
02:10:05,720 --> 02:10:08,560
Speaker 1: you should have Charles Abandon there, the guy who launched

2188
02:10:08,560 --> 02:10:13,040
Speaker 1: the lawsuit that got that legalized payments for name, image

2189
02:10:13,040 --> 02:10:17,920
Speaker 1: and likeness. So no, right, and Trump wasn't there to listen,

2190
02:10:18,480 --> 02:10:21,160
Speaker 1: and he came across almost half belligerent. Well, I'm just

2191
02:10:21,200 --> 02:10:23,560
Speaker 1: gonna sign an order put everything back the way it

2192
02:10:23,640 --> 02:10:26,120
Speaker 1: used to be, and then I'll get sued. And you're

2193
02:10:26,120 --> 02:10:28,080
Speaker 1: just sort of shaking your head. You're not gonna get

2194
02:10:28,080 --> 02:10:30,080
Speaker 1: sued because no one's going to take the order seriously

2195
02:10:30,120 --> 02:10:34,560
Speaker 1: at all. Look, it was a waste of time completely.

2196
02:10:34,880 --> 02:10:37,520
Speaker 1: I understand why everybody that showed up did show up,

2197
02:10:37,600 --> 02:10:41,360
Speaker 1: because you know there's you know he will he could

2198
02:10:41,440 --> 02:10:46,800
Speaker 1: lash out. I gotta think that there was one There

2199
02:10:46,840 --> 02:10:49,000
Speaker 1: was one picture of Nick Saban's face at one point.

2200
02:10:49,120 --> 02:10:52,960
Speaker 1: He looks really annoyed, and you know I I got

2201
02:10:52,960 --> 02:10:54,720
Speaker 1: to see that face up close. I went to a

2202
02:10:54,840 --> 02:10:59,640
Speaker 1: National Football Foundation Hall of Fame dinner one year. It

2203
02:10:59,760 --> 02:11:04,920
Speaker 1: was the year Jimmy Johnson was inaugurated. In fact, uh nope,

2204
02:11:04,960 --> 02:11:08,240
Speaker 1: not in this. My Florida studio has a my signed

2205
02:11:08,280 --> 02:11:12,160
Speaker 1: Jimmy Johnson helmet that I won in an auction that

2206
02:11:12,360 --> 02:11:20,240
Speaker 1: night there signed Miami Hurricane helmet. Of course, I I

2207
02:11:20,320 --> 02:11:22,040
Speaker 1: don't know what I would do if somebody gave me

2208
02:11:22,160 --> 02:11:28,040
Speaker 1: signed Jimmy Johnson Dallas Cowboy paraphernalia. I probably just sell it.

2209
02:11:29,080 --> 02:11:31,680
Speaker 1: I would not keep it. As much as I love Jimmy,

2210
02:11:33,880 --> 02:11:36,320
Speaker 1: that any hurricane stuff coll me in. And I probably

2211
02:11:36,400 --> 02:11:39,200
Speaker 1: keep some of the dolphin stuff just for the little

2212
02:11:39,240 --> 02:11:46,520
Speaker 1: Miami Miami history sake. But I am going I'm rambling

2213
02:11:46,520 --> 02:11:51,320
Speaker 1: on here, But the point was at this dinner, which

2214
02:11:51,320 --> 02:11:54,720
Speaker 1: also was honoring some some players from that year, and

2215
02:11:54,760 --> 02:11:59,520
Speaker 1: there was an Alabama player being honored, center Barrett somebody

2216
02:11:59,600 --> 02:12:02,520
Speaker 1: or other. I can't remember last name or first name.

2217
02:12:02,640 --> 02:12:04,360
Speaker 1: Barrett was either his last name and the first name,

2218
02:12:04,360 --> 02:12:06,440
Speaker 1: I believe, so you bam my fans will know who

2219
02:12:06,440 --> 02:12:10,360
Speaker 1: I'm talking about. And the running gag of the entire

2220
02:12:10,600 --> 02:12:14,680
Speaker 1: dinner was how miserable Nick Saban was at the dinner,

2221
02:12:15,080 --> 02:12:17,280
Speaker 1: that there was nothing he hated more than just like

2222
02:12:17,680 --> 02:12:21,680
Speaker 1: being somewhere that wasn't going to accomplish anything, you know,

2223
02:12:21,720 --> 02:12:23,160
Speaker 1: and they had just won this as one of the

2224
02:12:23,240 --> 02:12:25,120
Speaker 1: years they had just won the national title or they

2225
02:12:25,120 --> 02:12:28,120
Speaker 1: had just qualified to be in the National title. This

2226
02:12:28,200 --> 02:12:30,440
Speaker 1: was a December dinner, so they, you know, it was

2227
02:12:30,480 --> 02:12:33,920
Speaker 1: sort of that dark period right after the season. They

2228
02:12:33,920 --> 02:12:35,840
Speaker 1: were getting ready to play in the national title game.

2229
02:12:37,080 --> 02:12:39,600
Speaker 1: I think this is pre fourteen playoff even we're probably

2230
02:12:39,640 --> 02:12:45,920
Speaker 1: at the two team playoff. And it was the joke

2231
02:12:45,960 --> 02:12:48,760
Speaker 1: the whole time, you know, and you'd look at him

2232
02:12:48,760 --> 02:12:50,760
Speaker 1: and he really was he was just sort of hem

2233
02:12:50,760 --> 02:12:53,120
Speaker 1: and and han and anyway, when I saw that face

2234
02:12:53,160 --> 02:12:56,080
Speaker 1: at the at the White House, roundtable that they held

2235
02:12:56,880 --> 02:12:59,600
Speaker 1: last week. I was like, I've seen that Saban face.

2236
02:12:59,680 --> 02:13:02,360
Speaker 1: That's the I can't believe I'm stuck at this stupid

2237
02:13:02,400 --> 02:13:08,760
Speaker 1: effing thing face. But I'm sure you know you don't

2238
02:13:09,080 --> 02:13:11,560
Speaker 1: you don't know. The president has the power to convene.

2239
02:13:12,280 --> 02:13:16,960
Speaker 1: In theory, he could play a great role here. But

2240
02:13:17,040 --> 02:13:19,800
Speaker 1: when you only talk to one side of the fence

2241
02:13:19,960 --> 02:13:25,120
Speaker 1: and everybody in that room doesn't want to pay the players,

2242
02:13:26,400 --> 02:13:28,360
Speaker 1: they pay lip service to it, but none of them

2243
02:13:28,600 --> 02:13:31,960
Speaker 1: want to be paying the players, So you're just not

2244
02:13:32,400 --> 02:13:37,160
Speaker 1: dealing in the in reality of the situation itself. So

2245
02:13:37,800 --> 02:13:42,120
Speaker 1: it was a complete and utter waste of time. The

2246
02:13:42,160 --> 02:13:45,640
Speaker 1: only way this gets solved is Congress. Congress. You know,

2247
02:13:45,760 --> 02:13:50,600
Speaker 1: I'm I do think Cody Campbell the big he's one

2248
02:13:50,600 --> 02:13:52,720
Speaker 1: of the big funders of Texas text football program. But

2249
02:13:52,760 --> 02:13:56,080
Speaker 1: he's the guy that's been underwriting this television campaign about

2250
02:13:56,680 --> 02:14:00,800
Speaker 1: lobbying Congress to change the Broadcasting the Sports Broadcasting Act

2251
02:14:00,800 --> 02:14:05,360
Speaker 1: that essentially would allow all the college football schools to

2252
02:14:05,480 --> 02:14:09,640
Speaker 1: negotiate their media rights collectively, more like how the NFL

2253
02:14:09,720 --> 02:14:13,200
Speaker 1: does it, rather than conference by conference. And my old

2254
02:14:13,200 --> 02:14:16,360
Speaker 1: friend con Carol tweeted this the other day and I

2255
02:14:16,680 --> 02:14:22,240
Speaker 1: was like, he just put it so succinctly. When somebody

2256
02:14:22,320 --> 02:14:27,640
Speaker 1: was making the argument about collective versus each conference negotiating

2257
02:14:27,640 --> 02:14:29,760
Speaker 1: its media rights. He goes, imagine in the NFL, if

2258
02:14:29,800 --> 02:14:34,480
Speaker 1: each division were negotiating its own media rights, right, the

2259
02:14:34,600 --> 02:14:36,960
Speaker 1: nfcas so the Dallas Cowboys and the New York Giants

2260
02:14:37,480 --> 02:14:42,480
Speaker 1: versus the AFC South with the Jacksonville Jaguars Indianapolis Colts. Right, Like,

2261
02:14:43,080 --> 02:14:47,640
Speaker 1: who's media rights? Right? Who's going to get the bigger deal? Right?

2262
02:14:47,680 --> 02:14:51,960
Speaker 1: That'd be stupid to be bad business. Well for college athletics.

2263
02:14:51,960 --> 02:14:54,720
Speaker 1: It is bad business to do this by conference, And

2264
02:14:54,760 --> 02:14:58,280
Speaker 1: the only entities that benefit from doing this are the

2265
02:14:58,320 --> 02:15:00,960
Speaker 1: media companies who don't want to pay fair market value

2266
02:15:01,040 --> 02:15:05,200
Speaker 1: for these sports media rights. And right now, the two

2267
02:15:05,240 --> 02:15:09,840
Speaker 1: biggest media entities have the two biggest conferences as they're

2268
02:15:10,280 --> 02:15:18,160
Speaker 1: essentially they're surrogates. They're bought off, right, you know, the

2269
02:15:18,760 --> 02:15:20,839
Speaker 1: Big Ten and the SEC get to be the tallest

2270
02:15:20,880 --> 02:15:28,000
Speaker 1: little people because of this system. They'd still be probably

2271
02:15:28,160 --> 02:15:31,160
Speaker 1: on the merits B have a majority of the power

2272
02:15:31,240 --> 02:15:38,480
Speaker 1: teams if they all pulled their TV rights together. But

2273
02:15:38,600 --> 02:15:40,839
Speaker 1: the SEC and the Big ten like creating this velvet

2274
02:15:40,880 --> 02:15:44,760
Speaker 1: rope where fewer teams have an opportunity to be involved

2275
02:15:44,760 --> 02:15:49,520
Speaker 1: in the elite level of college football. All I would

2276
02:15:49,560 --> 02:15:53,080
Speaker 1: say is is, if you believe in a fairly free market,

2277
02:15:54,400 --> 02:15:56,480
Speaker 1: the current system of college football is not a free

2278
02:15:56,520 --> 02:15:58,400
Speaker 1: market at all. And yes, I know the NFL is

2279
02:15:58,440 --> 02:16:02,360
Speaker 1: not a free market as far as how that structure

2280
02:16:02,440 --> 02:16:06,160
Speaker 1: is concerned. But how the NFL takes its media rights

2281
02:16:06,160 --> 02:16:11,760
Speaker 1: to market is maximizing its value and its leverage. And

2282
02:16:11,840 --> 02:16:15,200
Speaker 1: college sports does not do that at the moment. So

2283
02:16:15,600 --> 02:16:20,080
Speaker 1: no chase. And like I said, the boy, the timing

2284
02:16:20,120 --> 02:16:22,600
Speaker 1: of it right, it was already awkward, It was already

2285
02:16:22,640 --> 02:16:26,200
Speaker 1: unlikely to be anything other than an attempt by Trump

2286
02:16:26,240 --> 02:16:29,160
Speaker 1: to insert himself. I mean, you know, I don't mean

2287
02:16:29,280 --> 02:16:30,880
Speaker 1: I'm going to continue to go off on a tangent

2288
02:16:30,920 --> 02:16:35,879
Speaker 1: here on this, but real quick, you know, I've whenever

2289
02:16:35,920 --> 02:16:38,600
Speaker 1: I get a chance with these presidents, I do. I

2290
02:16:38,680 --> 02:16:41,840
Speaker 1: do this with all politicians. I want to find out

2291
02:16:42,000 --> 02:16:43,720
Speaker 1: if they claim to be a sportsman, if they're really

2292
02:16:43,720 --> 02:16:46,360
Speaker 1: a sports fan. And for me, it's a little bit

2293
02:16:46,400 --> 02:16:48,840
Speaker 1: of its way I find out if somebody's a bullshit

2294
02:16:48,920 --> 02:16:51,840
Speaker 1: or not. I've done this with politicians. I've done this

2295
02:16:51,920 --> 02:16:55,840
Speaker 1: with multiple presidents where you know, you just want to

2296
02:16:55,879 --> 02:17:01,279
Speaker 1: find out what's the level of their fandom. Right with Obama,

2297
02:17:01,320 --> 02:17:04,760
Speaker 1: I've had both fascinating experience talking to him about basketball

2298
02:17:04,760 --> 02:17:08,280
Speaker 1: and college basketball where he goes real deep. Right, it

2299
02:17:08,400 --> 02:17:10,720
Speaker 1: is clear he is watching more games than I'm watching.

2300
02:17:11,640 --> 02:17:13,280
Speaker 1: This was even when he was president. This was what

2301
02:17:13,320 --> 02:17:15,080
Speaker 1: he was doing at night, you know, in between I

2302
02:17:15,120 --> 02:17:19,240
Speaker 1: think reading policy papers. But ask him about baseball. I

2303
02:17:19,240 --> 02:17:22,280
Speaker 1: remember one time asking him about a Key White Sox trade.

2304
02:17:22,280 --> 02:17:25,400
Speaker 1: This was evolving his favorite team. He didn't know, he

2305
02:17:25,720 --> 02:17:27,520
Speaker 1: didn't paid attention to the trade. I don't think he

2306
02:17:27,560 --> 02:17:31,959
Speaker 1: was a huge baseball fan. George W. Bush, he really

2307
02:17:32,040 --> 02:17:35,760
Speaker 1: knew his baseball. I never got a chance to quiz

2308
02:17:35,800 --> 02:17:38,000
Speaker 1: him on other sports, and he's never never heard him

2309
02:17:38,040 --> 02:17:39,800
Speaker 1: talk too much about other sports. He goes to a

2310
02:17:39,800 --> 02:17:43,560
Speaker 1: lot of SMU basketball games, so we do see him.

2311
02:17:43,640 --> 02:17:47,120
Speaker 1: We do see him there from Afar, But boy does

2312
02:17:47,160 --> 02:17:49,640
Speaker 1: he go deep on baseball. He knows who the top prospect.

2313
02:17:49,680 --> 02:17:52,560
Speaker 1: He doesn't just know major league teams. He knows, he's

2314
02:17:52,600 --> 02:17:57,280
Speaker 1: paid attention to that, the top ten prospects, he always knows,

2315
02:17:57,560 --> 02:18:00,160
Speaker 1: not just with the Rangers. It was very so the

2316
02:18:00,160 --> 02:18:03,800
Speaker 1: way Obama k new basketball, college and pro the way

2317
02:18:04,120 --> 02:18:11,840
Speaker 1: Bush new baseball, Bill Clinton voracious sports appetite. Basketball for sure,

2318
02:18:13,720 --> 02:18:18,000
Speaker 1: Football very much college oriented because of Arkansas, there's no

2319
02:18:18,080 --> 02:18:24,040
Speaker 1: pro teams there. With Donald Trump and any of you

2320
02:18:24,080 --> 02:18:25,760
Speaker 1: that have ever spent time with him, if you've done

2321
02:18:25,760 --> 02:18:28,680
Speaker 1: the same, you've probably had the same experience. It's shocking

2322
02:18:28,720 --> 02:18:31,920
Speaker 1: how little he actually understands the game itself. He knows

2323
02:18:32,000 --> 02:18:36,720
Speaker 1: the celebrities, the players that have hit celebrity status, right,

2324
02:18:37,280 --> 02:18:40,120
Speaker 1: Tom Brady. He knows the owners because he wanted to

2325
02:18:40,160 --> 02:18:43,680
Speaker 1: be an owner. There's that great line during his first

2326
02:18:43,720 --> 02:18:46,880
Speaker 1: campaign for the presidency when he said he was asked

2327
02:18:46,879 --> 02:18:48,760
Speaker 1: about what he knew about NASCAR, and he didn't really

2328
02:18:48,800 --> 02:18:50,600
Speaker 1: know anything about Nascar, But he goes, but I know

2329
02:18:50,600 --> 02:18:54,880
Speaker 1: the owners. I know some of the owners. And even now,

2330
02:18:54,959 --> 02:19:00,880
Speaker 1: you see, it's very rudimentary, there's no right the level

2331
02:19:00,879 --> 02:19:03,560
Speaker 1: of knowledge about the game itself, and it really you know,

2332
02:19:03,600 --> 02:19:07,560
Speaker 1: he really exposed his ignorance about football when he's been

2333
02:19:07,920 --> 02:19:11,080
Speaker 1: complaining about the kickoff rule and you're like, have you

2334
02:19:11,160 --> 02:19:13,600
Speaker 1: not paid attention that we hadn't actually had any active

2335
02:19:13,680 --> 02:19:18,360
Speaker 1: kickoffs for about ten years? Ever since everybody, everybody figured

2336
02:19:18,360 --> 02:19:19,840
Speaker 1: out it was just easier to kick it out of

2337
02:19:19,840 --> 02:19:24,440
Speaker 1: bounds and don't risk a run back, don't risk giving

2338
02:19:24,480 --> 02:19:29,920
Speaker 1: up good field position. And now we have this new

2339
02:19:30,000 --> 02:19:33,840
Speaker 1: rule that actually encourages kickoff returns, and he complains about

2340
02:19:33,840 --> 02:19:35,920
Speaker 1: it like it's somehow weak or woke. I mean, it

2341
02:19:36,040 --> 02:19:39,960
Speaker 1: really was a he was. You know, sometimes you're like, dude,

2342
02:19:40,400 --> 02:19:43,400
Speaker 1: you have no clothes on. You are literally making a

2343
02:19:43,440 --> 02:19:46,720
Speaker 1: point that is the exact opposite of the point you

2344
02:19:46,720 --> 02:19:52,720
Speaker 1: think you're making. So I know some of you think,

2345
02:19:52,760 --> 02:19:54,560
Speaker 1: oh I do is pile on Trump? But man, I'm

2346
02:19:54,600 --> 02:19:57,039
Speaker 1: telling you, the guy didn't know anything about actual sports.

2347
02:19:57,600 --> 02:19:59,840
Speaker 1: He knows about sports the way he knows about Hollywood.

2348
02:20:00,000 --> 02:20:04,880
Speaker 1: Those names, all right, but he's not really a fan.

2349
02:20:05,480 --> 02:20:08,680
Speaker 1: He doesn't really know these games. And anybody who knows

2350
02:20:08,720 --> 02:20:11,640
Speaker 1: him and who's had these conversations with him, you know

2351
02:20:11,720 --> 02:20:16,560
Speaker 1: I'm right about this. You just can't say it, Yeah, kiddy.

2352
02:20:28,879 --> 02:20:31,760
Speaker 1: Next question comes from Matt from Arlington, Texas. All right,

2353
02:20:31,800 --> 02:20:35,240
Speaker 1: how about them Cowboys? Yeah? How about them? Chuck, huge

2354
02:20:35,240 --> 02:20:36,920
Speaker 1: fan of the podcast. In your analysis, I've noticed some

2355
02:20:36,959 --> 02:20:40,400
Speaker 1: parallels between John Fetterman's trajectory in the Senate and Kirsten Cinemas.

2356
02:20:40,600 --> 02:20:42,879
Speaker 1: Both sometimes seem willing to buck their party space in

2357
02:20:42,920 --> 02:20:46,560
Speaker 1: ways that complicate reelection check. Am I off base? Nope?

2358
02:20:46,959 --> 02:20:49,240
Speaker 1: Or have the parties become so polarized that even occasional

2359
02:20:49,280 --> 02:20:52,360
Speaker 1: breaks from the base carry real political risk. Keep up

2360
02:20:52,360 --> 02:20:55,400
Speaker 1: with good work back from Marlington, Texas? Yeah, I think

2361
02:20:55,440 --> 02:20:57,680
Speaker 1: those are that's a terra. In fact, it goes deeper.

2362
02:20:57,680 --> 02:21:01,080
Speaker 1: I mean both Fetterman and Cinema were We're not just

2363
02:21:01,120 --> 02:21:06,920
Speaker 1: seen as as sort of natural Democrats, they were progressive Christian.

2364
02:21:06,920 --> 02:21:08,840
Speaker 1: Cinema was a member of the Green Party I think

2365
02:21:08,920 --> 02:21:11,000
Speaker 1: before she became a member of the Democratic Party.

2366
02:21:11,840 --> 02:21:12,000
Speaker 3: Uh.

2367
02:21:12,040 --> 02:21:14,320
Speaker 1: And Fetterman was seen as a Bernie Sanders guy, not

2368
02:21:14,360 --> 02:21:19,600
Speaker 1: just any any just conventional Democrat, Pennsylvania Democrat. Look, I

2369
02:21:19,640 --> 02:21:22,440
Speaker 1: think this is a real problem for both parties at

2370
02:21:22,440 --> 02:21:24,320
Speaker 1: this point. I mean, I think this is why you've

2371
02:21:24,320 --> 02:21:28,000
Speaker 1: got a guy like you know, it's a lot it's

2372
02:21:28,040 --> 02:21:33,160
Speaker 1: a lot easier to if to say what you want

2373
02:21:33,200 --> 02:21:36,880
Speaker 1: to say, that you think voters, that you think things

2374
02:21:36,879 --> 02:21:40,840
Speaker 1: that would resonate with voters, that doesn't alienate the groups,

2375
02:21:40,840 --> 02:21:44,039
Speaker 1: and it's not you know, the you know, it's interesting,

2376
02:21:44,080 --> 02:21:46,080
Speaker 1: there was there's a there's a brand new NBC News

2377
02:21:46,080 --> 02:21:49,039
Speaker 1: pull out and I'm gonna I'm going to go into

2378
02:21:49,120 --> 02:21:52,400
Speaker 1: it deeper with you later in the week because I

2379
02:21:52,480 --> 02:21:54,440
Speaker 1: like to dig into the cross tabs, and I haven't

2380
02:21:54,440 --> 02:21:56,720
Speaker 1: seen the cross tab yet. But they do ask an

2381
02:21:56,720 --> 02:22:02,039
Speaker 1: interesting question among Republicans and Democrats about their vote for

2382
02:22:02,080 --> 02:22:05,439
Speaker 1: Congress this year, if they're going to participate in the primaries,

2383
02:22:05,480 --> 02:22:07,959
Speaker 1: and are they looking for candidates who agree with them

2384
02:22:07,959 --> 02:22:10,760
Speaker 1: more in issues or candidates that can win in the

2385
02:22:10,760 --> 02:22:14,280
Speaker 1: general election. And while a majority of both parties say

2386
02:22:14,280 --> 02:22:16,760
Speaker 1: they're always looking for people that are close to their issues,

2387
02:22:17,080 --> 02:22:19,680
Speaker 1: it was like twenty three percent of Republicans said they

2388
02:22:19,720 --> 02:22:22,640
Speaker 1: were looking for the most electable, seventy plus percent looking

2389
02:22:22,680 --> 02:22:24,959
Speaker 1: for people that agree with them on issues. But among

2390
02:22:25,000 --> 02:22:28,040
Speaker 1: Democrats it was like fifty four percent saying they were

2391
02:22:28,040 --> 02:22:30,000
Speaker 1: looking for people that agree on issues. But over it

2392
02:22:30,040 --> 02:22:32,400
Speaker 1: was about forty one or forty two that said they

2393
02:22:32,400 --> 02:22:35,760
Speaker 1: were looking for the most electable. So you do have

2394
02:22:35,840 --> 02:22:38,400
Speaker 1: and this is where I think that Democratic Party leaders

2395
02:22:39,320 --> 02:22:41,959
Speaker 1: and the leaders of the interest groups on the left

2396
02:22:42,520 --> 02:22:45,199
Speaker 1: couldn't be more out of sync with their own primary voters.

2397
02:22:45,720 --> 02:22:48,440
Speaker 1: Right you have a large chunk of primary voters that

2398
02:22:48,480 --> 02:22:54,879
Speaker 1: are looking for essentially friendlier politicians who don't necessarily agree

2399
02:22:54,879 --> 02:22:58,840
Speaker 1: with them on anything everything. They're not putting them to

2400
02:22:58,879 --> 02:23:03,440
Speaker 1: purity tests. But you see how much these candidates and

2401
02:23:03,480 --> 02:23:08,320
Speaker 1: these interest groups force purity tests. So I you know,

2402
02:23:09,280 --> 02:23:12,400
Speaker 1: Fetterman is an economic populist, he's going to be to

2403
02:23:12,400 --> 02:23:13,920
Speaker 1: the left of you know, this is why he's going

2404
02:23:13,959 --> 02:23:16,200
Speaker 1: to stay a Democrat, but perhaps he ends up running

2405
02:23:16,200 --> 02:23:19,879
Speaker 1: as an independent. And look, you know, I think both

2406
02:23:19,920 --> 02:23:23,960
Speaker 1: parties in order to sober up, they've stopped being ideological

2407
02:23:24,200 --> 02:23:33,039
Speaker 1: accepting ideological diversity. Right, Trump punishes it severely, and essentially

2408
02:23:33,120 --> 02:23:38,279
Speaker 1: Democratic Party leadership does not reward it. They don't necessarily

2409
02:23:38,320 --> 02:23:41,720
Speaker 1: punish it, but they just they refuse to defend their

2410
02:23:42,200 --> 02:23:45,440
Speaker 1: anybody that ends up going off the reservation because they're

2411
02:23:45,480 --> 02:23:50,920
Speaker 1: afraid of the ire of left wing interest groups. So

2412
02:23:50,959 --> 02:23:53,039
Speaker 1: we already have this problem on the right. And I

2413
02:23:53,120 --> 02:23:56,680
Speaker 1: think that you know, the aien look the alienation right

2414
02:23:56,760 --> 02:24:01,880
Speaker 1: if it is, you know, and I think the Democratic

2415
02:24:01,879 --> 02:24:04,160
Speaker 1: Party has to ask itself, just like the Republican Party

2416
02:24:04,160 --> 02:24:06,760
Speaker 1: has to ask its self, what does it want to be?

2417
02:24:09,600 --> 02:24:14,560
Speaker 1: Is somebody who's sixty percent your friend forty minut Let's say,

2418
02:24:14,640 --> 02:24:16,920
Speaker 1: let's put it in this seventy percent, because that's really

2419
02:24:16,959 --> 02:24:20,080
Speaker 1: where we're looking at with betterment and with cinema. Is

2420
02:24:20,120 --> 02:24:22,080
Speaker 1: somebody that's with you seventy percent, but they're against you

2421
02:24:22,200 --> 02:24:25,280
Speaker 1: thirty percent on some things. Would you rather than be

2422
02:24:25,320 --> 02:24:29,400
Speaker 1: a Republican? Would you rather than be an independent? Or

2423
02:24:29,480 --> 02:24:32,280
Speaker 1: do you want them a part of your coalition? Because

2424
02:24:32,320 --> 02:24:35,880
Speaker 1: I go back to reminding democrats on the left in

2425
02:24:35,920 --> 02:24:40,560
Speaker 1: particular of something very there's a specific reason why that

2426
02:24:40,600 --> 02:24:44,080
Speaker 1: Democrats have to be more pragmatic in reaching out to

2427
02:24:44,120 --> 02:24:48,200
Speaker 1: the middle than the Republicans do. Right now, self described

2428
02:24:48,920 --> 02:24:51,879
Speaker 1: liberal voters are twenty nine percent of the electorate in

2429
02:24:51,920 --> 02:24:54,440
Speaker 1: the latest semi Seniors Wall Street ternable, and self described

2430
02:24:54,480 --> 02:24:56,680
Speaker 1: conservative voters are about thirty eight percent of the electorate

2431
02:24:56,720 --> 02:24:58,880
Speaker 1: thirty seven percent of the electorate. So that's about an

2432
02:24:58,879 --> 02:25:02,440
Speaker 1: eight to nine point gap, which means to get to

2433
02:25:02,480 --> 02:25:09,400
Speaker 1: fifty percent plus one, Democrats need more moderates than Republicans need.

2434
02:25:10,280 --> 02:25:13,800
Speaker 1: And when you need more, then yes, your base is

2435
02:25:14,160 --> 02:25:16,879
Speaker 1: going is going to get less of everything they want.

2436
02:25:17,680 --> 02:25:19,720
Speaker 1: Then the base of the right is going to get

2437
02:25:20,720 --> 02:25:23,039
Speaker 1: and I know that frustrates the left. So maybe make

2438
02:25:23,160 --> 02:25:29,480
Speaker 1: your policies more appetizing for the mettle. If you're hoping

2439
02:25:30,320 --> 02:25:33,879
Speaker 1: to expande your coalition. But right now, while it is

2440
02:25:34,080 --> 02:25:39,600
Speaker 1: growing slightly the base of the left, it is still

2441
02:25:39,600 --> 02:25:41,680
Speaker 1: about ten points lower than the base on the right.

2442
02:25:42,720 --> 02:25:46,840
Speaker 1: And that difference is why the Republican agenda lean's right

2443
02:25:47,120 --> 02:25:51,320
Speaker 1: and usually a successful Democratic agenda agenda leans center left.

2444
02:25:53,240 --> 02:25:58,600
Speaker 1: It's simple math, folks. Next question comes from them and Tulsa. Hey, Chuck,

2445
02:25:58,680 --> 02:26:00,920
Speaker 1: just finished listening to the Crystalism episode, and I thought

2446
02:26:00,920 --> 02:26:02,680
Speaker 1: you guys nailed it. The content as great as always,

2447
02:26:02,680 --> 02:26:04,560
Speaker 1: But love the dynamic between you two because you both

2448
02:26:04,600 --> 02:26:06,920
Speaker 1: speak the same political language, so you can build off

2449
02:26:06,920 --> 02:26:09,880
Speaker 1: each other in a satisfying way. Well, thank you and Chris,

2450
02:26:09,920 --> 02:26:11,720
Speaker 1: thanks you. Love to see you. Maybe a monthly or

2451
02:26:11,760 --> 02:26:13,440
Speaker 1: even a monthly series with you guys. I'm sure there

2452
02:26:13,480 --> 02:26:15,560
Speaker 1: will be more than enough major events to warrant a

2453
02:26:15,600 --> 02:26:17,480
Speaker 1: recurring meeting either way. La cheese, ree and keep up

2454
02:26:17,520 --> 02:26:19,959
Speaker 1: the good work. M In Tulsa. I love that you're in.

2455
02:26:20,440 --> 02:26:22,600
Speaker 1: Do you have any fun gadgets for us to use?

2456
02:26:22,760 --> 02:26:26,920
Speaker 1: I'm thinking James Bond here in in all seriousness, you

2457
02:26:27,000 --> 02:26:29,880
Speaker 1: may not realize this, and maybe I do a weekly

2458
02:26:29,920 --> 02:26:34,160
Speaker 1: podcast on Chris Silissa's substack. It's behind a paywall. It's

2459
02:26:34,200 --> 02:26:38,280
Speaker 1: part of his independent news organization. So we do do

2460
02:26:38,400 --> 02:26:42,240
Speaker 1: a weekly together every Monday. It goes up Monday afternoons.

2461
02:26:43,200 --> 02:26:45,080
Speaker 1: I do think that Chris is going to come back

2462
02:26:45,080 --> 02:26:49,279
Speaker 1: here pretty much after every one of our joint primary nights.

2463
02:26:49,600 --> 02:26:51,680
Speaker 1: That's what we've decided to do. So we're going to

2464
02:26:51,720 --> 02:26:53,120
Speaker 1: do Illinois. So we're going to try to get him

2465
02:26:53,120 --> 02:26:56,000
Speaker 1: back here at least once a month after one of

2466
02:26:56,040 --> 02:26:59,920
Speaker 1: our big primary nights for this calendar year. But yeah,

2467
02:27:00,080 --> 02:27:02,000
Speaker 1: when you've known somebody as long as Chris and I

2468
02:27:02,000 --> 02:27:05,200
Speaker 1: have known each other, and you know, this goes back

2469
02:27:05,240 --> 02:27:10,600
Speaker 1: to the advice that Tony Kornheiser gave me, the advice

2470
02:27:10,760 --> 02:27:13,720
Speaker 1: that I don't know if Tony gave I think Tony

2471
02:27:13,760 --> 02:27:18,039
Speaker 1: gave this advice to Bill Simmons, or maybe Bill Simmons

2472
02:27:18,040 --> 02:27:20,160
Speaker 1: gave it to Tony. I don't know which right. Who's

2473
02:27:20,200 --> 02:27:22,800
Speaker 1: the Who's the Who's the true Podfather? I feel like

2474
02:27:22,840 --> 02:27:25,520
Speaker 1: Tony is sort of the the the guy that that

2475
02:27:25,640 --> 02:27:28,320
Speaker 1: sort of over is sort of over everybody. But it

2476
02:27:28,400 --> 02:27:32,520
Speaker 1: really is is talk to your friends because it's the

2477
02:27:32,520 --> 02:27:35,720
Speaker 1: best way to convey what you know. You know, sometimes

2478
02:27:35,720 --> 02:27:37,400
Speaker 1: when you talk to people, you don't know all the time. No,

2479
02:27:37,440 --> 02:27:39,080
Speaker 1: not me. I like to get to know new people,

2480
02:27:39,200 --> 02:27:42,480
Speaker 1: new ideas. So I like a mix, which is why

2481
02:27:42,520 --> 02:27:44,400
Speaker 1: I like to have people I've not had on before.

2482
02:27:44,520 --> 02:27:50,080
Speaker 1: I want, I want to be challenged, But I also

2483
02:27:50,160 --> 02:27:53,879
Speaker 1: believe when, especially when trying to convey what I believe

2484
02:27:53,879 --> 02:27:57,720
Speaker 1: I understand about sort of politics in America, doing so

2485
02:27:57,879 --> 02:28:03,600
Speaker 1: with somebody that ticks knows your the good and the

2486
02:28:03,640 --> 02:28:05,960
Speaker 1: bad of your ability to go down rabbit holes is

2487
02:28:05,959 --> 02:28:08,000
Speaker 1: always a good thing. And I think Solis and I

2488
02:28:08,040 --> 02:28:12,920
Speaker 1: are pretty good about that. And here's another one for

2489
02:28:12,920 --> 02:28:15,280
Speaker 1: salism Man. I wonder if his ears are burning. I'll

2490
02:28:15,280 --> 02:28:17,400
Speaker 1: tell him about this in our Monday episode. Hey, thanks

2491
02:28:17,440 --> 02:28:19,760
Speaker 1: for introducing me to Crystaliz's work fascinating the country. The

2492
02:28:20,480 --> 02:28:22,480
Speaker 1: county unit of measure got me thinking, what if the

2493
02:28:22,520 --> 02:28:26,480
Speaker 1: federal Statute required US House districts to become either contiguous

2494
02:28:26,480 --> 02:28:29,200
Speaker 1: counties or a subdivided county. I think it would be

2495
02:28:29,200 --> 02:28:32,120
Speaker 1: better to have multiple representatives per big county, but I

2496
02:28:32,120 --> 02:28:34,640
Speaker 1: think we would need a constitutional amendment for that. Changing

2497
02:28:34,640 --> 02:28:38,360
Speaker 1: county borders is harder than district gerrymandering would reduce the

2498
02:28:38,480 --> 02:28:41,640
Speaker 1: arbitraranness of districts and create a more obvious pipeline of

2499
02:28:41,640 --> 02:28:46,119
Speaker 1: county political leadership towards the federal Congress. Cheers jud Montreal. Well, look,

2500
02:28:46,480 --> 02:28:49,720
Speaker 1: I just wouldn't change county lines, right, I understand what

2501
02:28:49,760 --> 02:28:51,720
Speaker 1: you're saying, and I think we do view county lines.

2502
02:28:51,760 --> 02:28:55,800
Speaker 1: That's sort of more in penn and obviously congressional district

2503
02:28:55,800 --> 02:29:03,960
Speaker 1: lines are in pencil. But if you yes, it would

2504
02:29:04,000 --> 02:29:06,120
Speaker 1: take a constitutional amendment if you wanted to have some

2505
02:29:06,240 --> 02:29:12,280
Speaker 1: restrictions like no congressional seat. You know, I will tell

2506
02:29:12,280 --> 02:29:17,840
Speaker 1: you this. I go back to I think there needs

2507
02:29:17,840 --> 02:29:20,320
Speaker 1: to be a population standard. So point oh three percent

2508
02:29:20,320 --> 02:29:22,840
Speaker 1: of the population right now would put it to I

2509
02:29:22,879 --> 02:29:25,400
Speaker 1: think about one three hundred and fifty thousand. So no

2510
02:29:25,480 --> 02:29:28,200
Speaker 1: congressional district could be bigger than larger than point oh

2511
02:29:28,240 --> 02:29:31,400
Speaker 1: three percent of the population, so that it always was

2512
02:29:31,440 --> 02:29:34,760
Speaker 1: that ratio, right, and so that the ratio is the same.

2513
02:29:36,959 --> 02:29:39,920
Speaker 1: You know, you could do some sort of contiguous law

2514
02:29:40,440 --> 02:29:44,199
Speaker 1: by miles. You could do a contiguous law by acreage,

2515
02:29:44,520 --> 02:29:47,800
Speaker 1: you know. But I think if you started with the

2516
02:29:47,800 --> 02:29:54,000
Speaker 1: population size point oh three, I think by you couldn't

2517
02:29:54,080 --> 02:29:58,760
Speaker 1: draw a district that wasn't at least somewhat more contiguous

2518
02:29:58,879 --> 02:30:03,800
Speaker 1: and at least a community of interests of some sort.

2519
02:30:04,360 --> 02:30:05,760
Speaker 1: All right, this is the last question. Is at six

2520
02:30:05,840 --> 02:30:08,360
Speaker 1: to one of the night, We'll go here. Do you

2521
02:30:08,360 --> 02:30:10,400
Speaker 1: think Democrats in tall Rico will try to define the

2522
02:30:10,440 --> 02:30:12,440
Speaker 1: Usenate election once there is a winner in the Republican

2523
02:30:12,480 --> 02:30:15,320
Speaker 1: Party runoff, assuming the Democrats do not have their own runoff.

2524
02:30:15,840 --> 02:30:18,360
Speaker 1: This was obviously sent before we had before we knew

2525
02:30:18,360 --> 02:30:21,000
Speaker 1: the results twenty twelve Obama vers Romeny. This happened on

2526
02:30:21,040 --> 02:30:23,480
Speaker 1: a presidential level with a media ad blitz. Sincerely, Avery

2527
02:30:23,600 --> 02:30:26,440
Speaker 1: and in Superior Wisconsin. Well, look, I'm very curious to

2528
02:30:26,480 --> 02:30:30,200
Speaker 1: see what tall Rico does during this runoff. I think

2529
02:30:30,240 --> 02:30:34,720
Speaker 1: there are I think, look, it does appear there's at

2530
02:30:34,800 --> 02:30:38,439
Speaker 1: least some effort, although I think Trump's kind of distracted,

2531
02:30:39,000 --> 02:30:43,440
Speaker 1: but there appears to be some effort to endorse Corning

2532
02:30:43,520 --> 02:30:46,840
Speaker 1: and see if they can work somehow push packed to Now.

2533
02:30:51,920 --> 02:30:55,000
Speaker 1: I think that if I were Talla Rico and there's

2534
02:30:55,040 --> 02:30:57,880
Speaker 1: a runoff, I play in the runoff. And I think

2535
02:30:57,879 --> 02:30:59,480
Speaker 1: it's a mistake not to play in the runoff, whether

2536
02:30:59,520 --> 02:31:03,199
Speaker 1: it's Talarrie Go, whether it's the Democratic super PACs, because

2537
02:31:03,280 --> 02:31:06,200
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it's a much different race.

2538
02:31:06,240 --> 02:31:09,000
Speaker 1: It's a much it's a cleaner campaign to run if

2539
02:31:09,040 --> 02:31:11,560
Speaker 1: you're running against Paksman. I'm not one of those who

2540
02:31:11,560 --> 02:31:15,720
Speaker 1: thinks Cornin is unbeatable. This political environment is deteriorating by

2541
02:31:15,760 --> 02:31:22,320
Speaker 1: the hour for Republicans. But it's certainly a different race

2542
02:31:22,720 --> 02:31:26,039
Speaker 1: against Cornin, and it's a more costly race because corn

2543
02:31:26,120 --> 02:31:28,359
Speaker 1: is going to have a ton more money than Paxton's

2544
02:31:28,360 --> 02:31:33,440
Speaker 1: going to have. So it is I do think they

2545
02:31:33,480 --> 02:31:36,600
Speaker 1: can't just sit quietly and raise money. They need to

2546
02:31:36,680 --> 02:31:40,960
Speaker 1: try to influence the political weather while they have a

2547
02:31:41,000 --> 02:31:43,959
Speaker 1: freehand to do so. Put it this way, if the

2548
02:31:44,040 --> 02:31:47,160
Speaker 1: roles were reversed, the Republicans would be doing everything they

2549
02:31:47,240 --> 02:31:50,000
Speaker 1: could in their minds to elect Jasmine Crockett in the runoff.

2550
02:31:50,720 --> 02:31:52,720
Speaker 1: So if you're Talla Rico, you should do everything you

2551
02:31:52,760 --> 02:31:57,000
Speaker 1: can to nominate and to help Ken Paxton in the runoff.

2552
02:31:57,400 --> 02:31:59,200
Speaker 1: And if you're not doing that, then you're not playing

2553
02:31:59,240 --> 02:32:05,040
Speaker 1: to win. All right. I'm gonna pause there. I ended

2554
02:32:05,120 --> 02:32:10,400
Speaker 1: up doing my little sports thing with that. I will

2555
02:32:10,440 --> 02:32:14,039
Speaker 1: say this, I really I love the World Baseball Classic.

2556
02:32:15,600 --> 02:32:18,480
Speaker 1: I really feel sorry for these you know, you realize,

2557
02:32:18,520 --> 02:32:20,960
Speaker 1: I mean it is sort of the World Baseball Classic

2558
02:32:21,040 --> 02:32:25,360
Speaker 1: is these days, it's kind of like it's kind of

2559
02:32:25,560 --> 02:32:29,360
Speaker 1: like the way Olympics basketball works now, both in men

2560
02:32:29,400 --> 02:32:31,400
Speaker 1: and women. There are really only two or three countries

2561
02:32:31,400 --> 02:32:34,800
Speaker 1: that have the ability to beat anybody, and the US

2562
02:32:34,920 --> 02:32:37,440
Speaker 1: only has to worry about two or three countries. And

2563
02:32:37,480 --> 02:32:39,040
Speaker 1: in this case, the US only has to worry about

2564
02:32:39,040 --> 02:32:42,560
Speaker 1: two or three countries. You know, did a Dominican and

2565
02:32:42,720 --> 02:32:46,520
Speaker 1: Japan And the real difference you see here is pitching, right.

2566
02:32:46,920 --> 02:32:50,600
Speaker 1: You saw it with against Brazil. Those guys could not

2567
02:32:50,720 --> 02:32:52,760
Speaker 1: find the strike zone. I think they actually could find

2568
02:32:52,760 --> 02:32:54,440
Speaker 1: the strike zone. I think they were afraid to find

2569
02:32:54,440 --> 02:32:57,600
Speaker 1: the strike zone, right because the second that ball goes

2570
02:32:57,640 --> 02:33:00,840
Speaker 1: into the strike zone, even the number nine hit terrang Man,

2571
02:33:00,879 --> 02:33:02,760
Speaker 1: it's going to crutch that sucker to the wall.

2572
02:33:04,600 --> 02:33:04,880
Speaker 4: It is.

2573
02:33:06,600 --> 02:33:10,480
Speaker 1: That's where you see this massive gap right now. It's

2574
02:33:10,520 --> 02:33:14,119
Speaker 1: closing a lot, right. It's interesting to see how competitive

2575
02:33:14,120 --> 02:33:16,800
Speaker 1: Panama is with Puerto Rico because Puerto Rico a little

2576
02:33:16,800 --> 02:33:18,720
Speaker 1: weaker team this year. I think they don't have enough

2577
02:33:18,760 --> 02:33:21,680
Speaker 1: pitching to be to sort of get closer to the

2578
02:33:21,680 --> 02:33:24,800
Speaker 1: big three countries, right the dr the US and Japan.

2579
02:33:25,879 --> 02:33:28,480
Speaker 1: But you know, Puerto Rico and Venezuela are like the

2580
02:33:28,520 --> 02:33:32,160
Speaker 1: next two, right with maybe with Canada there though they

2581
02:33:32,280 --> 02:33:36,720
Speaker 1: also have Most of these countries have pitching issues, right.

2582
02:33:36,800 --> 02:33:39,800
Speaker 1: It's pitching depth, and that seems to be the biggest difference.

2583
02:33:41,440 --> 02:33:44,040
Speaker 1: It is really only the Japanese, the Dominicans, and the

2584
02:33:44,120 --> 02:33:48,039
Speaker 1: Americans that have the pitching depth to handle everything. But

2585
02:33:48,200 --> 02:33:50,680
Speaker 1: I have to say I enjoy all of these games.

2586
02:33:50,720 --> 02:33:53,800
Speaker 1: I like seeing the former major leaguers. It was a

2587
02:33:53,840 --> 02:33:57,080
Speaker 1: real treat to see Trace Thompson, brother of Klay Thompson.

2588
02:33:58,280 --> 02:34:00,760
Speaker 1: I think I sold a rookie autograph of his for

2589
02:34:00,800 --> 02:34:02,600
Speaker 1: like three dollars, like five years ago. By the way,

2590
02:34:04,160 --> 02:34:05,760
Speaker 1: I thought it would do better than that. But this

2591
02:34:05,879 --> 02:34:08,640
Speaker 1: is Michael Thompson's son. Michael Thompson was a center for

2592
02:34:08,680 --> 02:34:11,440
Speaker 1: the Lakers, the first center after Kareem. He won a

2593
02:34:11,440 --> 02:34:13,840
Speaker 1: title with the Lakers. He had two sons that made

2594
02:34:13,840 --> 02:34:16,760
Speaker 1: the major that made the pro made pro sports leagues.

2595
02:34:17,120 --> 02:34:21,200
Speaker 1: Trace Thompson Major League Baseball, Klay Thompson the NBA, and

2596
02:34:21,240 --> 02:34:23,560
Speaker 1: boy that height it was man, It was just it

2597
02:34:23,600 --> 02:34:25,800
Speaker 1: was a great defensive play. But that was the thing

2598
02:34:25,840 --> 02:34:29,400
Speaker 1: with Trace Thompson. There were plenty. It's a reminder great

2599
02:34:29,440 --> 02:34:32,520
Speaker 1: defense does not guarantee a major league career, You've got

2600
02:34:32,560 --> 02:34:34,920
Speaker 1: to be able to hit the ball, and that was

2601
02:34:34,920 --> 02:34:37,680
Speaker 1: always the challenge there for Trace. But it's really fun

2602
02:34:37,680 --> 02:34:42,039
Speaker 1: to see to see these these players. I think he

2603
02:34:42,120 --> 02:34:46,000
Speaker 1: was on a part of Great Great Britain. If you're

2604
02:34:46,000 --> 02:34:48,640
Speaker 1: in the Commonwealth, right, You're why Jazz Chisholm is on

2605
02:34:48,720 --> 02:34:51,400
Speaker 1: Great Britain because he's a Bahamian and they're part of

2606
02:34:51,440 --> 02:34:56,640
Speaker 1: the Commonwealth. I guess if if if the Bahamas gets

2607
02:34:56,840 --> 02:34:59,920
Speaker 1: gets more major league players that can feel the team,

2608
02:35:00,040 --> 02:35:02,400
Speaker 1: and I guess if Canada couldn't field a team, they'd

2609
02:35:02,440 --> 02:35:05,840
Speaker 1: also be part of Great Britain's team. Like if Canada

2610
02:35:06,240 --> 02:35:08,959
Speaker 1: and Great Britain, which apparently is grabbing half the Caribbean,

2611
02:35:08,959 --> 02:35:10,960
Speaker 1: and the Netherlands grabs the other half of the Caribbean,

2612
02:35:12,000 --> 02:35:16,080
Speaker 1: I guess you could put together in the three countries, Canada,

2613
02:35:16,200 --> 02:35:22,840
Speaker 1: Great Britain and the Netherlands collectively probably could be a

2614
02:35:22,879 --> 02:35:27,240
Speaker 1: top A, top four contestant here. Anyway, I'm also caring

2615
02:35:27,280 --> 02:35:29,880
Speaker 1: about the WBC because my son and I played a

2616
02:35:29,879 --> 02:35:33,560
Speaker 1: go to a game when it's in Miami, and I'm

2617
02:35:33,600 --> 02:35:37,000
Speaker 1: looking forward to it going to a semi final. I'm

2618
02:35:37,040 --> 02:35:39,039
Speaker 1: certainly hoping. I know I'm going to get one of

2619
02:35:39,080 --> 02:35:42,800
Speaker 1: three teams, right, the DR Japan or Team USA. I'm

2620
02:35:42,879 --> 02:35:46,080
Speaker 1: hoping I've picked the right semi final game and I

2621
02:35:46,160 --> 02:35:49,760
Speaker 1: get the one that is that is either Team D

2622
02:35:50,400 --> 02:35:53,440
Speaker 1: I hope it's the DR versus Japan, and you Team

2623
02:35:53,520 --> 02:35:58,600
Speaker 1: USA has already made the final. But either way, I

2624
02:35:58,640 --> 02:36:01,199
Speaker 1: think I want to say I always want to see Otani.

2625
02:36:01,280 --> 02:36:05,120
Speaker 1: I think he's the I think he is the He

2626
02:36:05,240 --> 02:36:07,520
Speaker 1: is the biggest guarant He and Judge are close to

2627
02:36:07,600 --> 02:36:09,879
Speaker 1: being the biggest guarantees of a show in sport, in

2628
02:36:09,920 --> 02:36:11,600
Speaker 1: baseball right where you feel like if you go to

2629
02:36:11,600 --> 02:36:13,480
Speaker 1: a game of one of those two guys, there's a

2630
02:36:13,560 --> 02:36:18,680
Speaker 1: chance you're going to see something special, you know. I

2631
02:36:18,680 --> 02:36:20,880
Speaker 1: got to see Mike Trott his rookie year was a

2632
02:36:21,080 --> 02:36:24,959
Speaker 1: White Sox game doing some interviews for my old Obama book.

2633
02:36:25,840 --> 02:36:28,520
Speaker 1: It was Mike Trott and his rookie year, first game

2634
02:36:28,520 --> 02:36:32,160
Speaker 1: I ever seen him play. Hits a home run and

2635
02:36:32,200 --> 02:36:34,480
Speaker 1: he took one away in center field, and I thought,

2636
02:36:35,120 --> 02:36:38,120
Speaker 1: I've had the full Mike Trout experience. That's I think

2637
02:36:38,120 --> 02:36:41,520
Speaker 1: how it feels with Oughtani these days. I mean, imagine

2638
02:36:41,560 --> 02:36:47,600
Speaker 1: being a Japanese member of that crowd, first night, of

2639
02:36:47,640 --> 02:36:51,400
Speaker 1: course he hits a grand Slam. I mean, you can

2640
02:36:51,400 --> 02:36:53,720
Speaker 1: take Otani the bank or Aaron Judge. First game, of

2641
02:36:53,760 --> 02:36:56,080
Speaker 1: course he hits a home run. Some of these guys, man,

2642
02:36:56,120 --> 02:37:00,160
Speaker 1: they just they're that good. Right now, baseball's lucky, So

2643
02:37:00,240 --> 02:37:02,320
Speaker 1: this is such a great time for baseball to have

2644
02:37:02,600 --> 02:37:10,200
Speaker 1: a work stoppage. Anyway, but I digress. Next week it's

2645
02:37:10,200 --> 02:37:11,920
Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of college basketball. I'm gonna warn

2646
02:37:11,920 --> 02:37:14,760
Speaker 1: you now. I'm a big fan of the tournament. My

2647
02:37:14,840 --> 02:37:18,400
Speaker 1: favorite bets to make are these unders teams. They don't

2648
02:37:18,400 --> 02:37:22,280
Speaker 1: know how to shoot in these new arenas. That's what

2649
02:37:22,360 --> 02:37:26,640
Speaker 1: those that make money gambling do. Those that throw money

2650
02:37:26,680 --> 02:37:31,000
Speaker 1: away chase the great teams and do stupid parlays. So

2651
02:37:31,000 --> 02:37:34,040
Speaker 1: there's your bad gambling tip of the day. And with that,

2652
02:37:34,120 --> 02:37:36,640
Speaker 1: I'll see you in forty eight hours. Enjoy the next

2653
02:37:36,640 --> 02:37:37,080
Speaker 1: two days.